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Chas:
For the listener's benefit, Stu is tuned in while he's cooking dinner,

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Chas:
having not done the homework, and is just wandering past our screen.

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Mel:
But he's correcting us via, yeah, sign language at the moment.

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Mel:
Hi, I'm Mel Killingsworth.

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Chas:
And I'm Chaz Fisher.

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Mel:
And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two, and for this episode,

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Mel:
and a half, aspiring Aussie filmmakers try to figure out what makes great scripts work.

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Chas:
And we're actually still back to one and a half Australian filmmakers because

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Chas:
Stu is still on show and we considered waiting.

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Chas:
We've got an exciting episode that we're planning to do together on character-driven

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Chas:
plotting and still looking to embark on our big dive into character arcs more generally.

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Chas:
But this, this is a spiritual follow-up. It's the third time that we've done this.

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Chas:
And it's a one shot on an Academy Award nominated because to date stamp this

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Chas:
episode, we are between the nominations, but before the actual awards and to date stamp it further,

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Chas:
we're talking 2026 and we've selected one movie out of the best original screenplay

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Chas:
nominations to review and see what we can learn from.

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Chas:
And we have chosen to do Blue Moon, as voted by us and our Patreons as our homework,

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Chas:
written by Robert Kaplow.

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Mel:
Kaplow.

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Chas:
Kaplow.

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Mel:
I don't know. It's just more fun to say it that way.

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Chas:
With the film having been directed by Richard Linklater and starring Ethan Hawke,

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Chas:
who is also nominated for his performance as songwriter Lorenz Hart.

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Chas:
And we're going to spoil the fuck out

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Chas:
of this as we often do in achieving our

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Chas:
learnings but we're also going to change the format ever so slightly for the

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Chas:
benefit of you dear listener as prompted by some of our listeners and our long-suffering

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Chas:
editor Chris and we are going to lead with our learnings before we figured it

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Chas:
all out through the magic of editing it's.

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Mel:
Only taken us 10 years well it's only.

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Chas:
Taken you.

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Mel:
10 years and me.

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Chas:
Like five,

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Chas:
okay dear listeners from the future

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Chas:
the key learnings that we are taking from blue moon is narrative point of view

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Chas:
how it's controlled and comparisons to adolescence in terms of the real-time

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Chas:
french scenes compulsion through interweaving storylines and,

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Chas:
just repetition in dialogue. Go back to our hook and hook episode on dialogue

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Chas:
that is used so much in this script.

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Chas:
Mel, have I missed any?

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Mel:
I think mine are using your scene breaks as emotional breaks instead of actual

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Mel:
literal scene breaks when you're writing something that is essentially all real time in one room.

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Mel:
Something that is compulsive and has a few action lines, If you overused it, it would be bad.

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Mel:
But in this script, the continual use of we in action lines contributes to the pacing.

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Mel:
It helps carry us along through the French scenes without sort of pulling us

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Mel:
out of it when it goes to action lines. I think also the dialogue is very pop

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Mel:
culture heavy, but it does it in a clever way.

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Mel:
It never makes you feel like you need to know the thing they're referencing

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Mel:
to get the enjoyment out of it.

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Mel:
And if you're going to do the pop culture referencing, you kind of need to do it in that way.

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Mel:
This is a very good way to do it. And then, yeah,

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Mel:
I think the interweaving storylines is really interesting, as well as the structure

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Mel:
of that tiny little bookend and how that emotionally sets us up for these technically 14 scenes,

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Mel:
but really one scene, which is going to culminate in that opening little sliver of a bookend.

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Mel:
And then prompt a philosophical discussion about what does it mean? Is it sad or is it not?

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Mel:
I don't know if that last one's a learning, but it's something that I enjoyed exploring.

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Mel:
So welcome to our new entry.

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Chas:
Our new format.

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Mel:
Pre-Key Learnings.

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Chas:
You droolah!

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FX:
We write together for a quarter of a century. And the first show he writes with

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FX:
someone else is going to be the biggest hit he ever had. Am I bitter, Larry? Yes.

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FX:
For over 20 years, Hart and his partner Richard Rodgers create a string of hits.

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FX:
I want 10 copies of that. Write me a check.

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FX:
Such as My Funny Valentine, The Lady is a Tramp, and Blue Moon.

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FX:
Your work is brilliant. That's not the problem. No, no, I'm not drinking with you, Larry.

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FX:
They should put my picture on that bottle. The whiskey that made Loren's heart unemployable.

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Chas:
So, Mel, do you want to summarize Blue Moon?

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Mel:
Blue Moon is a biopic-esque movie that follows one man who used to be half of

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Mel:
a musicals writing team.

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Mel:
So if you know of Rodgers and Hammerstein, before Rodgers and Hammerstein, there was Heart.

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Chas:
Or Rodgers and Heart.

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Mel:
Rodgers and Heart. and Rogers then moved on to this other pairing and this movie opens,

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Mel:
it doesn't open, this movie, there's a tiny sliver of a bookend on either side

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Mel:
and then the rest of it is all in real time as Lorenz Hart goes to the opening

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Mel:
of Oklahoma which was written by his ex-partner Rogers and Hammerstein.

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Mel:
He leaves early and he goes to the bar across the street and then he talks for

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Mel:
90 minutes. And that is the film.

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Chas:
Yeah, that is a fairly accurate summary.

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Chas:
And I knew nothing about this when we sort of whittled it down. I read the script first.

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Mel:
Well, some was whittled for us because two of the screenplays nominated for

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Mel:
Oscars are not in English.

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Chas:
Yeah. And as much as I have some other languages insufficient to consider some of the other nominees.

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Chas:
But I'm actually really excited that we stumbled on this one because...

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Chas:
We originally did, I think it was either our first or second ever Draft Zero

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Chas:
episode was, do the screenplay guru formats win you Oscars or get you nominated for Academy Awards?

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Chas:
And yes, I think Academy Awards, for whatever they're worth, right?

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Chas:
As like, you know, all the stereotypes and tropes about them and what they like

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Chas:
and who the Academy is made up for with and what they vote for and how hard,

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Chas:
how Harvey Weinstein and corrupted the whole thing with Shakespeare in Love.

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Chas:
Yada, yada, yada. But look, I love Shakespeare in Love.

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Chas:
But this film breaks nearly every format, structure, convention around screenwriting.

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Chas:
And yet, attracted the attention. It's an original screenplay.

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Chas:
Even though it's a spot. I don't know how it got original screenplay.

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Chas:
It's inspired by the letters of Lorenz Hart and Elizabeth.

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Chas:
Which we'll talk about in a second.

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Mel:
I guess they weren't published in any way.

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Chas:
Yeah, I guess when Whiplash is adapted from its own short film.

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Chas:
Anyway, this film attracted Richard Linklater, it attracted Ethan Hawke,

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Chas:
and it got made and has attracted accolades for it, despite being made on a

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Chas:
very small budget and shot in 15 days.

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Chas:
So, there is stuff, I think, to look at that will be of benefit, interest to listeners.

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Chas:
But Mel, what are your...

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Chas:
Your main topics that you'd love to having watched and then read blue moon.

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Mel:
Yes what are.

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Chas:
Your key takeaways from this.

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Mel:
Well i think we'll talk a little bit about the structure and

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Mel:
we'll talk a bit about about writing in real time this is just basically hey

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Mel:
we're gonna write how many pages it's 85 pages of dialogue and it's just almost

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Mel:
solid dialogue and then it's going to come out just about the same because it

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Mel:
is nothing but people talking in roots and talking really fast.

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Mel:
So I think those are probably my main two. I'm also quite interested in how it uses pop culture,

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Mel:
especially because it's a period piece and it does a lot of pop culture that is signposted.

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Mel:
It does also a lot of pop culture that is not. It has meta pop culture.

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Mel:
We'll talk about the Stuart Little thing. And it's also

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Mel:
a lot of things that contemporary audiences might be

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Mel:
expected to not be super familiar with

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Mel:
like it goes nitty by the way i'm so proud that

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Mel:
robert kaplau has the bravery to come out in 2026

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Mel:
and say oklahoma's a shit musical like it's

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Mel:
the songs are bad the performances

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Mel:
are bad i can't say no is one of the most offensively i mean it's like non-offensive

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Mel:
offensive songs in all of you know broadway anyway the the surrey with a fringe

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Mel:
on top doesn't even make the song about the Surrey like a sexual connotation.

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Mel:
It's just a guy singing about how much he loves his truck, basically. Anyway.

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Mel:
The references are layered in and there

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Mel:
are entire conversations that go for like five minutes that are about nothing but

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Mel:
riffing on Casablanca and quoting Casablanca and

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Mel:
then deconstructing Casablanca and talking about and it doesn't worry that the

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Mel:
audience won't quote unquote get the reference it just goes we're going to be

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Mel:
interesting enough keep up or you know just immerse yourself in it and so I

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Mel:
really like that because I think the especially the trend the last you know,

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Mel:
decade or so is not to trust the audience and you can't have these references.

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Mel:
They're not going to get it. It doesn't care whether you get it or not.

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Excerpts:
Worst line in Casablanca? Well, a precedent is being broken.

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Excerpts:
A precedent is being broken. How can you break a goddamn precedent?

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Excerpts:
Do they even speak English over there in Hollywood?

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Mel:
It just cares, is this interesting? And the combination of those two things,

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Mel:
the structure and the content, is how the pacing plays out.

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Mel:
And it just kind of goes fast and hard enough that if you aren't really into

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Mel:
what it's talking about now, it carries you along until it gets to a scene that you are.

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Chas:
Yeah.

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Mel:
And so that is also obviously part technique. It's also part performance.

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Mel:
It's also all those. But I think those are probably my main three things.

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Chas:
So let's say them again, shorthand?

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Mel:
The structure, the pop culture, and the pacing.

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Chas:
Okay. I'm somewhat tied up in those as well, because I'm looking to answer the

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Chas:
question, how did they make a 90-minute film about a songwriter?

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Chas:
Like, it's named after his most famous song, Blue Moon. there's you

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Chas:
know most people would know the song i saw that beck had done

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Chas:
a cover as well as elvis presley and ella fitzgerald and so

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Chas:
people know the song no one

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Chas:
really knows i i believe much i

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Chas:
certainly had never even heard of lorenz or larry hart and

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Chas:
so how do you make and this goes back to the

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Chas:
the episode that we did on biopics

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Chas:
when how do you make a story compelling when the audience knows

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Chas:
the answer from history and this one

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Chas:
this is one of those sort of gems of

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Chas:
history where it's set in and around world

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Chas:
war ii and so people know

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Chas:
oklahoma they might know rogers and hammerstein they would know of the u.s's

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Chas:
involvement in world war ii so there's kind of enough to hang your hat on but

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Chas:
how do you make a 90 minute period film compare that that unfurls largely in real time,

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Chas:
other than that opening and the end title cards,

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Chas:
in real time. And.

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Chas:
Here are all the, you know, this is a one shot and we're going to be pulling

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Chas:
on lessons from, I think, a whole lot of different episodes that we've done

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Chas:
in the past. We've obviously done two Oscar episodes.

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Chas:
We're going to be looking a lot at the dialogue.

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Chas:
When you say structure, my take on that is going to be both narrative point

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Chas:
of view, macro narrative point of view that we've done episodes on.

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Chas:
We did an episode on adolescence where we looked at French scenes.

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Chas:
And those are also, you know, one hour pieces of entertainment that unfurl in

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Chas:
real time. So there is a, I think, a connection in what both of those are trying to do.

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Chas:
And then this is one of the three reasons that I really enjoyed this,

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Chas:
that we stumbled on choosing this film is I think it's also foreshadowing.

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Chas:
Like we did an episode on character driven movies or plot light movies where

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Chas:
we looked at Amour and Happy-Go-Lucky and Chef.

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Chas:
And this is similar, but this is very much a tragedy. And I think we will look

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Chas:
at, oh, Mel's sighing at me.

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Mel:
There are tragic elements.

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Chas:
Okay. So, let's see the big one for me.

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Chas:
I'm going to steal the runtime of this or the agenda of this exploration.

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Chas:
To me, the opening of the film, and the film opens with Larry stumbling down

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Chas:
an alleyway, he's singing,

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Chas:
he sort of stumbles and slowly sinks to the ground in the rain, and then says, oh fuck.

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Excerpts:
Everything happens to me. Everything happens to me.

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Excerpts:
Oh, fuck.

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Chas:
And then in voiceover, we hear a radio announcer talking about Larry's death.

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Excerpts:
Mr. Hart was 48 years old. For over 20 years,

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Excerpts:
Hart and his partner Richard Rogers, Rogers wrote the music,

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Excerpts:
Hart the Words, combined their respective geniuses to create a string of musical

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Excerpts:
comedy hits, often referred to as America's Gilbert and Sullivan.

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Chas:
And when i read it i

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Chas:
laughed at the oh fuck and when i saw

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Chas:
it even hawk performed it like it was funny

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Chas:
this poor guy stumbling to the

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Chas:
ground probably having liver failure and

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Chas:
then contracting pneumonia of which he died three

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Chas:
days later in hospital he was only 48

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Chas:
years old why do i why am

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00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:06,940
Chas:
i connecting tragedy to this what this is my

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Chas:
biggest thing of the whole film is i don't think this film works

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00:15:09,980 --> 00:15:13,880
Chas:
without that one page it's

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Chas:
the only significant shift in narrative

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Chas:
point of view it's the only thing that doesn't

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Chas:
happen in real time it starts out telling

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Chas:
us that this man is going

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Chas:
to die a tragic death from his own consequences of his own alcoholism and then

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00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:43,740
Chas:
proceeds to show us 90 minutes of him constantly being presented with opportunities to choose between,

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00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,620
Chas:
and I'm not going to say his addiction to alcohol, that's part of it,

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00:15:47,740 --> 00:15:54,100
Chas:
but it's kind of between what made him tick as against success in life.

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00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:55,300
Mel:
Okay.

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00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:58,380
Chas:
And that's why I think it's a tragedy because-

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00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:05,160
Chas:
It's almost a melodrama, but not quite because Larry is, has other than,

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00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:06,460
Chas:
you know, you can treat an addiction,

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00:16:06,780 --> 00:16:10,880
Chas:
obviously an addiction means he doesn't have agency in relation to his addiction,

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00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:18,760
Chas:
but this isn't a melodrama where it's the world imposing upon Larry and Larry

220
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,960
Chas:
is constantly at the expense of the world,

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00:16:22,140 --> 00:16:26,060
Chas:
constantly having to choose to survive what is happening.

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00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:33,980
Chas:
Larry is appears to be relatively wealthy he despite his diminutive stature

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Chas:
appears to be quite successfully sexually what was it ambisexual he called himself he.

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Excerpts:
Said Larry make up your mind are you homosexual or heterosexual I said doc I'm

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Excerpts:
ambisexual he said what the hell does that even mean I said it means I can jerk

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Excerpts:
off equally well with either hand oh Larry there's a lady present,

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00:16:56,620 --> 00:16:58,800
Excerpts:
Well, women can use either hand too.

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Chas:
And so I want you to, to me, that opening puts the audience in knowing what

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Chas:
we're about to watch. It doesn't matter what happens.

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00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:12,900
Chas:
We know in seven months time, this guy is going to die alone and in a gutter.

231
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Mel:
Okay.

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00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:16,600
Chas:
And it deliberately puts that at the beginning and not at the end.

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Mel:
Yes. However, I think...

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Mel:
I don't dispute. The facts are not in dispute. But what I think is really interesting

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Mel:
is it puts it at the beginning and it shows you he essentially,

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Mel:
right, he dies doing the three things he loves, which is singing,

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Mel:
being drunk and swearing.

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00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:39,450
Mel:
And then it takes the next 90 minutes to

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Mel:
essentially at you you say here's a 48 year old

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Mel:
man he dies very young he dies literally in

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Mel:
a gutter drunk it's not about the

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00:17:49,530 --> 00:17:53,030
Mel:
movie is not asking do you think this is a sad ending the

243
00:17:53,030 --> 00:17:56,570
Mel:
movie is asking would he think this

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00:17:56,570 --> 00:17:59,330
Mel:
is a sad ending would he think this is the way

245
00:17:59,330 --> 00:18:02,110
Mel:
to go out and i and and and it is funny and it's funny

246
00:18:02,110 --> 00:18:05,630
Mel:
in the script it's funny how he says delivers the fuck but would

247
00:18:05,630 --> 00:18:09,170
Mel:
lorenz heart prefer to die

248
00:18:09,170 --> 00:18:12,190
Mel:
in that way where he's singing where

249
00:18:12,190 --> 00:18:14,910
Mel:
he's had all of these successes you know like some of

250
00:18:14,910 --> 00:18:18,030
Mel:
the most famous songs in history multiple sinatra

251
00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:21,070
Mel:
hits like all these other things things that

252
00:18:21,070 --> 00:18:23,910
Mel:
we know would he prefer to or would he prefer to

253
00:18:23,910 --> 00:18:26,950
Mel:
live sober watching rogers and hammerstein

254
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:34,170
Mel:
go on to great success that he predicted becoming unable to

255
00:18:34,170 --> 00:18:37,450
Mel:
fulfill all of these other vices and things

256
00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:41,890
Mel:
that he wants that he talks about throughout the movie because he it's quite

257
00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:48,990
Mel:
clear that he's becoming quickly incapacitated by his inability to stop drinking

258
00:18:48,990 --> 00:18:55,010
Mel:
by his inability to stop self-sabotaging etc and And so I think the movie sets us up to say,

259
00:18:55,070 --> 00:19:01,770
Mel:
is this a tragic end or is it simply that he would not want to live any other way? And I think...

260
00:19:02,730 --> 00:19:08,670
Mel:
So all the conversations that he continues to have are the answer.

261
00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:10,750
Mel:
And I don't think there's a final answer to it.

262
00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:15,830
Mel:
I think, however, it opens up other ways of looking at his death,

263
00:19:15,910 --> 00:19:19,810
Mel:
which is it is factual reality, but it also is a very melodramatic,

264
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:20,930
Mel:
like set up to a movie, right?

265
00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:24,490
Mel:
Like a guy, something down a dark noir alleyway in the rain.

266
00:19:24,610 --> 00:19:29,510
Mel:
But it's it's opening up other avenues of looking at it because which ties into

267
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:32,390
Mel:
your narrative point of view. everything's about heart and what heart wants

268
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:34,190
Mel:
and thinks and does and how he does it.

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Chas:
Okay here's where i'll agree with you

270
00:19:37,070 --> 00:19:40,850
Chas:
i think you're right that heart it

271
00:19:40,850 --> 00:19:45,790
Chas:
might not be a tragedy in that heart would did not want to change he was constantly

272
00:19:45,790 --> 00:19:50,470
Chas:
presented with change and chose not to change and i think where i agree with

273
00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:54,470
Chas:
you is that he probably would have preferred to die in the gutter than to write

274
00:19:54,470 --> 00:20:00,610
Chas:
the types of musicals that Rodgers was wanting to write, a.k.a.

275
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Chas:
Successful musicals.

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Mel:
A.k.a. Oklahoma.

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Excerpts:
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. I know exactly what you mean.

278
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:12,050
Excerpts:
Just tell me, what do you really want to write? What's your dream show?

279
00:20:12,170 --> 00:20:13,490
Excerpts:
My dream show? Yeah. Oklahoma.

280
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Excerpts:
I mean next.

281
00:20:19,230 --> 00:20:27,390
Chas:
This feels, despite its setting, a very modern commentary on art and a whole

282
00:20:27,390 --> 00:20:30,130
Chas:
lot of other things like timelessness.

283
00:20:30,150 --> 00:20:32,130
Mel:
Art by committee and...

284
00:20:32,130 --> 00:20:35,410
Chas:
And there's definitely... I can't... I'm trying to scroll through the script

285
00:20:35,410 --> 00:20:42,730
Chas:
to find it, but there's definitely a discussion that Hart has where they're talking about, like,

286
00:20:42,830 --> 00:20:47,670
Chas:
at what point do you feel like you're past your best, like your best is behind

287
00:20:47,670 --> 00:20:52,630
Chas:
you that you that it'll be ever diminishing what is in the future.

288
00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:55,590
Mel:
You can still think it's a tragedy and.

289
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:57,810
Chas:
I guess maybe that's me layering my own.

290
00:20:57,810 --> 00:20:59,090
Mel:
Right interpretation.

291
00:20:59,090 --> 00:21:03,750
Chas:
On it like would i have preferred heart got clean because it's not mutually

292
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:07,830
Chas:
exclusive in my mind right it's not mutually exclusive that heart could have

293
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:09,450
Chas:
got clean and still written.

294
00:21:09,450 --> 00:21:12,090
Mel:
But heart thinks it's mutually exclusive yes.

295
00:21:12,090 --> 00:21:16,390
Excerpts:
You're willing to write it really write it and rewrite it and rewrite it again

296
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Excerpts:
then you know it could work but i'm not going to beg you for this larry you

297
00:21:19,870 --> 00:21:22,350
Excerpts:
know we've worked for 15 minutes you're out the door you're looking for a cigar

298
00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:26,770
Excerpts:
store it drives me really crazy i don't like it i don't work like that for 24

299
00:21:26,770 --> 00:21:29,790
Excerpts:
years that's exactly what we've done for 24 years but.

300
00:21:29,790 --> 00:21:32,590
Mel:
Hart thinks it's mutually exclusive because he's tried

301
00:21:32,590 --> 00:21:37,250
Mel:
other ways and even rod has he yeah because he's he's tried to get sober other

302
00:21:37,250 --> 00:21:41,350
Mel:
times like that's the whole beginning dance where he's asking bobby cannavale

303
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:44,950
Mel:
to pour him the thing no i'm just gonna smell it no i'm just gonna this Like

304
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:49,250
Mel:
Rogers insinuates that he's tried this many times and it's never flown and that

305
00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:51,670
Mel:
his work hours and like Hart,

306
00:21:51,850 --> 00:21:54,130
Mel:
it's not about whether you think it's a tragedy.

307
00:21:54,550 --> 00:22:00,350
Chas:
Yes. All right. So this is like, to me, this is an interesting early discussion.

308
00:22:02,290 --> 00:22:03,170
Chas:
So the...

309
00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:09,280
Chas:
Is it a tragedy or not? I don't know. But what is clear is that opening is so

310
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:10,760
Chas:
important to the structure of the film.

311
00:22:10,860 --> 00:22:14,200
Chas:
They could have put that opening at the end of the film, but I don't,

312
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:19,440
Chas:
I think the entire perception of that, like how compelling we would have found

313
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,340
Chas:
that 90 minutes would have been very different had they put that at the end.

314
00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:27,040
Chas:
And that sinking feeling we might have had, not knowing anything about Larry

315
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:32,180
Chas:
Hart, watching him go through those 90 minutes, giving back into his alcoholism,

316
00:22:33,140 --> 00:22:38,160
Chas:
sounding like he's going to refuse to work with Rogers the way that Rogers wants him to work.

317
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:44,280
Chas:
Feeling definitely that he's the intellectual superior to Hammerstein,

318
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,380
Chas:
who is, he also knows at the same point, says it repeatedly,

319
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,920
Chas:
that Hammerstein is, and Oklahoma is going to be successful.

320
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Excerpts:
I sat in my box seat tonight and watched Oklahoma exclamation point down there,

321
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,820
Excerpts:
glittering and all its pink lights

322
00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:07,420
Excerpts:
and all those cowboy hats and twirling lassos. And I knew two things,

323
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:15,640
Excerpts:
absolute certainty. It was a 14-carat hit, and it was a 14-carat piece of shit.

324
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,300
Mel:
I agree with you on both points. And I love Rodgers and Hammerstein.

325
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,960
Mel:
It does give you that dramatic irony of knowing where it's going.

326
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,780
Mel:
And I think that's really crucial, whether it's to your point,

327
00:23:28,980 --> 00:23:32,880
Mel:
I know this ends in tragedy, or whether it's to mine, because it forces you into,

328
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:40,980
Mel:
what would he think about knowing that that's coming would he prefer that to

329
00:23:40,980 --> 00:23:44,400
Mel:
where he sees the potential of his life going throughout these 90 minutes.

330
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,400
Chas:
Yeah so we're talking

331
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,300
Chas:
about structure i think that decision of putting

332
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:54,200
Chas:
that opening there where we know like interestingly we

333
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,000
Chas:
were talking when we did the biopics episode we were talking about how do

334
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,860
Chas:
you avoid the problem that the audience knows the ending and in this film

335
00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:02,840
Chas:
where the audience might not know the ending they've told us the

336
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,220
Chas:
ending they've chosen to do that to i

337
00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:09,800
Chas:
think make the next hour and a half more compelling because

338
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,960
Chas:
we know what the choice is yep

339
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:19,180
Chas:
we know what the consequences are of him continually refusing to change whether

340
00:24:19,180 --> 00:24:23,600
Chas:
he can or not i think is a legitimate other question whether he wants to or

341
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:30,440
Chas:
not yeah is a legitimate other question but the the then the structure of the 90 minutes,

342
00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:35,570
Chas:
One of the big things I want to talk about here is narrative point of view to

343
00:24:35,570 --> 00:24:38,870
Chas:
summarize it for our long-term listeners.

344
00:24:39,030 --> 00:24:41,530
Chas:
They're like, we know what narrative point of view is. You talk about it every

345
00:24:41,530 --> 00:24:45,150
Chas:
time. But to me, it's the greatest screenwriting tool is where are you positioning

346
00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:49,310
Chas:
the audience in relation to their knowledge, to the character's knowledge.

347
00:24:50,590 --> 00:24:55,630
Chas:
And obviously these characters all come in with a lot of knowledge that we're catching up on.

348
00:24:55,810 --> 00:24:58,390
Chas:
We're catching up on the backstory. It's happening in real time.

349
00:24:58,490 --> 00:24:59,950
Chas:
They're not really stopping to say.

350
00:25:00,110 --> 00:25:05,470
Mel:
And then I wouldn't- They give you an audience surrogate slash Greek chorus

351
00:25:05,470 --> 00:25:07,770
Mel:
who's the piano player, who doesn't know anyone.

352
00:25:07,930 --> 00:25:11,310
Mel:
And so sometimes he and the bartender explain each other to the piano player

353
00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:12,270
Mel:
who's kind of off in the corner.

354
00:25:12,530 --> 00:25:15,730
Mel:
But for the most part, everyone else has established relationships,

355
00:25:15,970 --> 00:25:18,790
Mel:
long, sometimes 20, 30 year histories with each other.

356
00:25:18,790 --> 00:25:22,030
Chas:
Yeah and so all of

357
00:25:22,030 --> 00:25:25,930
Chas:
that is oh like

358
00:25:25,930 --> 00:25:31,750
Chas:
we're moving we're constantly with larry i think there's maybe two and i won't

359
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:35,890
Chas:
even call them scenes there's almost only two beats in the entire film where

360
00:25:35,890 --> 00:25:40,110
Chas:
larry is not present and in those two beats we've got other characters talking

361
00:25:40,110 --> 00:25:45,810
Chas:
about larry right but for most of the film we are with larry in his experience we're not,

362
00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:49,330
Chas:
But we are always ahead of him because of that opening.

363
00:25:50,170 --> 00:25:55,070
Chas:
So that is, you know, we're constantly, it's making us feel sorry for Larry

364
00:25:55,070 --> 00:26:01,950
Chas:
in that sense, rather than if we were just with Larry in terms of that narrative point of view,

365
00:26:02,050 --> 00:26:05,310
Chas:
where we are learning things as Larry's learning them, we are experiencing them

366
00:26:05,310 --> 00:26:07,010
Chas:
as Larry experiences them.

367
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:11,490
Chas:
I don't know what your experience of watching it or reading it was I ended up

368
00:26:11,490 --> 00:26:14,650
Chas:
sort of forgetting the opening both with the read and with.

369
00:26:14,650 --> 00:26:15,550
Mel:
The viewing.

370
00:26:15,550 --> 00:26:18,850
Chas:
Because the viewing is so immediate because it leans

371
00:26:18,850 --> 00:26:21,590
Chas:
into those tools from adolescence but I

372
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:26,290
Chas:
couldn't imagine how different the experience of those episodes of adolescence

373
00:26:26,290 --> 00:26:30,390
Chas:
would have been if they had started with here's how this episode is going to

374
00:26:30,390 --> 00:26:35,490
Chas:
end and then put you into it the way that you emotionally connect with those

375
00:26:35,490 --> 00:26:38,830
Chas:
characters is going to be completely different depending on whether you're with

376
00:26:38,830 --> 00:26:41,030
Chas:
them or whether you're ahead of them.

377
00:26:41,030 --> 00:26:46,610
Mel:
I do think so first of all i when i was so i watched it and then read the script

378
00:26:46,610 --> 00:26:50,490
Mel:
and you read the script and then watched it and so i think our experiences might be different however,

379
00:26:51,250 --> 00:26:55,590
Mel:
also i did know his story a little bit like i know a little bit about the the

380
00:26:55,590 --> 00:27:01,990
Mel:
because rogers and hammerstein being so famous and then knowing that there was this you know almost uh,

381
00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:05,770
Mel:
sliding doors right moment like i

382
00:27:05,770 --> 00:27:11,650
Mel:
knew that and then because the beginning is so it's shot differently to the

383
00:27:11,650 --> 00:27:14,410
Mel:
rest of it as well in terms of like the color in terms of whatever it's quite

384
00:27:14,410 --> 00:27:18,950
Mel:
dramatic and so i do think that watching it rather than reading it keeps it

385
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:24,230
Mel:
front of mind a little bit more even though yes by the end once it comes back

386
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:25,690
Mel:
around you're like oh right that happened like Like,

387
00:27:25,910 --> 00:27:31,090
Mel:
it's not looming, they're not flashing back to it, and it's quite short,

388
00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:33,890
Mel:
but it does haunt the narrative a bit more, I think,

389
00:27:34,170 --> 00:27:36,550
Mel:
in the watching experience than the reading experience.

390
00:27:38,030 --> 00:27:42,130
Chas:
So anyway i'm probably going to keep coming back to that opening.

391
00:27:42,130 --> 00:27:42,510
Mel:
Because i.

392
00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:46,470
Chas:
Think it's so important how it plays out through everything else but then should

393
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:47,550
Chas:
we talk about the structure.

394
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:48,710
Mel:
How do.

395
00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:53,390
Chas:
You think the can you can you summarize what it is about the structure of those

396
00:27:53,390 --> 00:27:58,630
Chas:
90 minutes in playing out in real time where we're largely not shifting in in

397
00:27:58,630 --> 00:28:04,050
Chas:
narrative point of view at all we're largely in larry's experience for 90 minutes.

398
00:28:04,050 --> 00:28:06,730
Mel:
Well for me to

399
00:28:06,730 --> 00:28:09,330
Mel:
talk about structure especially since we're talking about the script i'm going

400
00:28:09,330 --> 00:28:12,850
Mel:
to talk about the technical aspects of

401
00:28:12,850 --> 00:28:15,570
Mel:
it and i i've kind of broken this out from the script

402
00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:18,990
Mel:
and i might put it up on my subsec and link to it in the show notes because

403
00:28:18,990 --> 00:28:24,850
Mel:
now we are also reading so what we read is the conformed script so i do think

404
00:28:24,850 --> 00:28:30,510
Mel:
that some of these slug lines and things were added in post probably when they

405
00:28:30,510 --> 00:28:33,130
Mel:
were having a read through with ethan hawk and trying to figure some things

406
00:28:33,130 --> 00:28:34,310
Mel:
out and needed to delineate.

407
00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:39,550
Mel:
My guess is that, especially because it essentially uses four different techniques.

408
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:43,370
Mel:
The first is that normal numbering. 1, 2, 3.

409
00:28:43,630 --> 00:28:49,030
Mel:
Then you start getting number lettering. 4A, 4B, 4C, 4D. Then you start getting

410
00:28:49,030 --> 00:28:51,310
Mel:
scenes that have a part 1, part 2.

411
00:28:51,630 --> 00:28:56,150
Mel:
There's four scenes that have a part 1 and part 2. And then there's only one

412
00:28:56,150 --> 00:28:58,950
Mel:
scene. There's one scene where it.

413
00:28:59,870 --> 00:29:02,950
Mel:
Start specifying the position that the characters

414
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:05,690
Mel:
are in within the room where it's like position one and then

415
00:29:05,690 --> 00:29:08,550
Mel:
a bunch of dialogue happens and it's like this character moves to position

416
00:29:08,550 --> 00:29:11,330
Mel:
two and more dialogue happens this character also moves

417
00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:14,170
Mel:
to position two more dialogue happens this character moves to position three

418
00:29:14,170 --> 00:29:17,010
Mel:
like so it does that and i think some of

419
00:29:17,010 --> 00:29:20,270
Mel:
that was probably done for the actor's benefit or the

420
00:29:20,270 --> 00:29:23,130
Mel:
camera person's benefit you know depending on how they were trying

421
00:29:23,130 --> 00:29:26,350
Mel:
to block things out just to give them a mark or

422
00:29:26,350 --> 00:29:29,850
Mel:
a scene of like oh this is when this shifts so because

423
00:29:29,850 --> 00:29:32,570
Mel:
we're reading the conform script you can't quite tell but i

424
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:35,570
Mel:
do think that when they decide to put the slug lines in

425
00:29:35,570 --> 00:29:39,190
Mel:
and because the slug lines don't always even

426
00:29:39,190 --> 00:29:42,790
Mel:
change like 4a and

427
00:29:42,790 --> 00:29:45,750
Mel:
4b well 4b 4c 4d 4e 4

428
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:48,930
Mel:
they're all in the same place now 4g moves to a different location

429
00:29:48,930 --> 00:29:52,310
Mel:
within the main bar area but like the

430
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:55,770
Mel:
the slug lines are they're more like guidelines as

431
00:29:55,770 --> 00:29:58,930
Mel:
you might say um so and

432
00:29:58,930 --> 00:30:01,770
Mel:
for those we really shouldn't we i don't believe

433
00:30:01,770 --> 00:30:04,850
Mel:
that podcasts should be a video medium but i was very proud of the fact that

434
00:30:04,850 --> 00:30:09,310
Mel:
i think my performance there my physicality really gave the pirates of the caribbean

435
00:30:09,310 --> 00:30:16,190
Mel:
reference i was going anyway so in fact there's one part there's one scene which

436
00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:20,770
Mel:
says part one and then the entire scene happens at part two.

437
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,100
Mel:
It just says, Hart wanders back to the bar, and then it changes slug lines to scene six.

438
00:30:26,540 --> 00:30:30,900
Mel:
So a lot of it feels more like, I wrote this one giant scene,

439
00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:35,660
Mel:
and now I have to figure out where it makes sense to break it.

440
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,900
Mel:
Or even, I wrote it all, and now I have to figure out where does it make narrative

441
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:42,700
Mel:
sense to maybe move these characters off into another corner.

442
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:44,900
Mel:
Because we're still following Hart the entire time.

443
00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:49,480
Mel:
So why isn't he just in the main bar? Well, visual interest or thematic interest,

444
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,760
Mel:
there's a great scene where they go up and down steps.

445
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:57,460
Mel:
And so you're saying, oh, OK, well, he's talking about the ascent of his partner's

446
00:30:57,460 --> 00:30:59,820
Mel:
career and how that has led to his downfall.

447
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,140
Mel:
You know where it'd be good to stage that? On some steps. Let's make that its own scene.

448
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,200
Chas:
And he's literally chasing him up the stairs as he's walking away from him.

449
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,980
Mel:
The mini staging of this. And

450
00:31:09,980 --> 00:31:12,720
Mel:
there's been a lot made about Ethan Hawke's height and how they do that.

451
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,560
Mel:
And they pair him with taller actors but then they also like are clearly like

452
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,320
Mel:
you have these long dolly and or city cam shots and

453
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,000
Mel:
you're like is is he walking on are do they

454
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,000
Mel:
have do they have grips just like throwing apple boxes

455
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,180
Mel:
under his feet and then moving them out of the way like what's happening but

456
00:31:27,180 --> 00:31:33,520
Mel:
the the staging of the stuff within these like mini scenes where he like moves

457
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,060
Mel:
to eb white's table or then he gets up and like walks into the is also just

458
00:31:37,060 --> 00:31:42,460
Mel:
really great like the blocking and the the way that that's all done is really great so i think that's

459
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,360
Mel:
part of how this works and is proposed.

460
00:31:45,740 --> 00:31:50,660
Mel:
Whether they back-engineered it, probably, but when you talk pacing,

461
00:31:50,980 --> 00:31:55,080
Mel:
that is within the script where it decides to break things into different places.

462
00:31:56,020 --> 00:31:56,040
Chas:
So,

463
00:31:56,850 --> 00:32:02,110
Chas:
We're talking about French scenes and that, you know, it's a theater term,

464
00:32:02,330 --> 00:32:07,450
Chas:
but it's where the location doesn't change, but a character may leave or enter

465
00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:13,250
Chas:
and then the drama changes because of the new combination of characters who are in the scene.

466
00:32:13,250 --> 00:32:16,750
Chas:
And that's how they run together and that's sort

467
00:32:16,750 --> 00:32:21,530
Chas:
of what happened with adolescence but here we're largely following larry hart

468
00:32:21,530 --> 00:32:28,130
Chas:
and what we have is initially the bar is empty and larry is predominantly having

469
00:32:28,130 --> 00:32:33,790
Chas:
in a relationship with the bartender eddie and the pianist morty,

470
00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:44,690
Chas:
then i mean the the reveal is fantastic there's a the the writer andy white is sitting within,

471
00:32:45,290 --> 00:32:48,410
Chas:
two meters of larry but they

472
00:32:48,410 --> 00:32:51,190
Chas:
don't reveal him until they

473
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:54,070
Chas:
slowly slyly drift the camera to one side and

474
00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:57,070
Chas:
then we see that there's been a person sitting there listening to this exchange

475
00:32:57,070 --> 00:33:01,530
Chas:
between these three of them has been going on for like 20 minutes and then slowly

476
00:33:01,530 --> 00:33:05,830
Chas:
that character slowly gets involved and they have scenes then the crew well

477
00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:13,230
Chas:
the cast and crew from oklahoma roll in at some point as well as elizabeth the were.

478
00:33:13,230 --> 00:33:16,530
Mel:
You just trying to figure out what to call her and decided to call her by her name.

479
00:33:16,530 --> 00:33:18,690
Chas:
Her character name played by margot as.

480
00:33:18,690 --> 00:33:23,470
Mel:
Opposed to like do we call her the girlfriend do we call her the love interest

481
00:33:23,470 --> 00:33:26,510
Mel:
do we call her the beard do we call her the you know all of the above.

482
00:33:28,390 --> 00:33:35,110
Chas:
Definitely something, yet another thing that Larry is reaching for that is now beyond him.

483
00:33:35,510 --> 00:33:42,370
Chas:
I think this is just a film of seeing Larry continuously reaching for the ineffable,

484
00:33:42,610 --> 00:33:45,630
Chas:
which is a word that is referenced a lot throughout the script,

485
00:33:45,910 --> 00:33:49,230
Chas:
and then, yeah, and not attaining it.

486
00:33:49,550 --> 00:33:53,910
Excerpts:
Well, then you will appreciate this story because it concerns the...

487
00:33:57,670 --> 00:34:01,270
Excerpts:
Ineffable. That's the perfect word.

488
00:34:02,410 --> 00:34:05,790
Chas:
But coming back to your point, here's something that anyone who's doing this

489
00:34:05,790 --> 00:34:10,070
Chas:
kind of structure, this real-time, be it like adolescents, adolescents at least

490
00:34:10,070 --> 00:34:11,210
Chas:
move through different spaces.

491
00:34:11,330 --> 00:34:14,150
Chas:
And like you said, this does move through subtly different spaces.

492
00:34:14,330 --> 00:34:18,370
Chas:
There's like the main bar, there's the foyer area, there's a booth that's off

493
00:34:18,370 --> 00:34:22,990
Chas:
to one side, there's the stairway, and then there's the dressing, the coat room.

494
00:34:23,050 --> 00:34:25,030
Mel:
There's the coat room and there's also a scene in the bathroom.

495
00:34:25,970 --> 00:34:26,410
Chas:
Yes.

496
00:34:26,410 --> 00:34:27,090
Mel:
Thank you.

497
00:34:27,090 --> 00:34:30,710
Chas:
So there are different locations and but

498
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:33,510
Chas:
a lot of it even when they're staying

499
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:36,230
Chas:
in the same location and there's a french scene even when there's no

500
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:39,650
Chas:
change of characters they will put a slug line in there and i think that is

501
00:34:39,650 --> 00:34:47,310
Chas:
yes good writing from a screenplay craft perspective to indicate to the reader

502
00:34:47,310 --> 00:34:50,870
Chas:
there has been a big dramatic shift we have reached the end of a point and something

503
00:34:50,870 --> 00:34:55,130
Chas:
is about to change and it shifts the pace it shifts.

504
00:34:55,130 --> 00:34:56,310
Mel:
The vibe it.

505
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:57,010
Chas:
Shifts often.

506
00:34:57,010 --> 00:35:03,430
Mel:
The type of dialogue exchange that's happening it's it certainly visually signals

507
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:07,290
Mel:
what emotionally happens when you're experiencing the film.

508
00:35:07,290 --> 00:35:11,130
Chas:
Yeah and in a weird kind of way is using the

509
00:35:11,130 --> 00:35:13,790
Chas:
very element that we hate about screenwriting which is

510
00:35:13,790 --> 00:35:19,290
Chas:
formatting using it to try and replicate what that will dramatically feel like

511
00:35:19,290 --> 00:35:23,170
Chas:
on set because this is a script and again like you said this is a conformed

512
00:35:23,170 --> 00:35:27,430
Chas:
script so we don't know how much it resembles the shooting script or the early

513
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:32,550
Chas:
versions of the script that Robert Kablow wrote but there's very little,

514
00:35:33,150 --> 00:35:36,930
Chas:
big print very little action lines it's very sparse,

515
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,380
Chas:
And so much of it is just in dialogue.

516
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:45,320
Mel:
And I think my last thing before we move to maybe continue talking about narrative

517
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,160
Mel:
point of view, but my last thing on structure is the structure and even the

518
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,420
Mel:
very little bit of action scenes that we have. It breaks so many rules.

519
00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:00,900
Mel:
And I think the fact is the first, it breaks four major screenwriting rules in the first two pages.

520
00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:03,620
Mel:
And by the time it does that it has set you

521
00:36:03,620 --> 00:36:06,520
Mel:
up for the fact that it is not going to be a quote

522
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,660
Mel:
unquote regularly formatted script it's essentially

523
00:36:09,660 --> 00:36:14,240
Mel:
using the slug lines as like emotional guideposts as opposed to formal slug

524
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:20,600
Mel:
lines and i think that that's all of a piece like it all it all it feels coherent

525
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:27,960
Mel:
within itself because it is it's it's mostly writing vibes so.

526
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,700
Chas:
What what are the four screenplay rules that it breaks in the first two pages?

527
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,900
Mel:
Well, so the first page of the script after the title page is not, it's numbered I-I.

528
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,960
Mel:
So like small lowercase I. So not page one, not page two, not the cover page.

529
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,880
Mel:
And then it just has two quotes on it.

530
00:36:45,530 --> 00:36:49,650
Mel:
Which are essentially commentary. And these are not quotes that are meant to

531
00:36:49,650 --> 00:36:55,030
Mel:
be subscript because on other ones are like, you know, title card, text shows, whatever.

532
00:36:55,230 --> 00:36:59,910
Mel:
It's just two quotes that are telling you how to feel about the character.

533
00:37:00,250 --> 00:37:03,990
Mel:
It's a quote by Oscar Hammerstein, and he was alert and dynamic and fun to be around.

534
00:37:04,190 --> 00:37:07,150
Mel:
And then it was a quote by Mabel Mercer. He was the saddest man I ever knew.

535
00:37:07,150 --> 00:37:11,750
Mel:
So it's just commentary flat out as well as the thing.

536
00:37:11,870 --> 00:37:16,810
Mel:
So it does that. Then on the second page, we have multiple uses of we see.

537
00:37:17,210 --> 00:37:22,890
Mel:
We also have an explicit camera movement as we pull slowly away from him in the alley.

538
00:37:23,310 --> 00:37:27,110
Mel:
We have a radio announcer, which is not technically a rule, but it's the first

539
00:37:27,110 --> 00:37:29,550
Mel:
thing they tell you right in screenplay run-to-one is you don't have,

540
00:37:29,730 --> 00:37:34,530
Mel:
you don't start your movie with a radio announcer telling you the details of this person's life.

541
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:39,250
Mel:
That's such a lazy way to write a screenplay. like, well, it right there does it.

542
00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:42,490
Mel:
It also has, it just says opening credit sequence.

543
00:37:42,690 --> 00:37:48,050
Mel:
It doesn't say, it just, a mini slug that just yells opening credit sequence and moves on.

544
00:37:48,910 --> 00:37:54,070
Mel:
And so it's just, it also does the thing, which I might not actually do it in

545
00:37:54,070 --> 00:37:55,130
Mel:
the very first. Oh, it does.

546
00:37:55,450 --> 00:38:00,770
Mel:
The way that it uses parentheticals and underlines is very unusual because a

547
00:38:00,770 --> 00:38:04,990
Mel:
lot of scripts use parentheticals to say like, oh, the character,

548
00:38:04,990 --> 00:38:08,750
Mel:
it's an aside or what the character's doing,

549
00:38:09,070 --> 00:38:13,290
Mel:
like an action and this one sometimes uses parentheticals

550
00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:17,250
Mel:
for a character's action and sometimes uses parentheticals to signal that the

551
00:38:17,250 --> 00:38:22,950
Mel:
writer is going off on a tangent and then comes back and it's sometimes so in

552
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:28,110
Mel:
the flow that it's kind of hard to tell what it's doing but it's working I think

553
00:38:28,110 --> 00:38:32,610
Mel:
that for the most part it's attempting to write on vibes Mm-hmm.

554
00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:39,140
Chas:
Look, I'm a little bit reluctant to call those broken screenwriting rules when,

555
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,260
Chas:
you know, I can feel Craig Mazin yelling at us.

556
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,960
Mel:
No, no, no. But this is what I mean. I agree with Mazin. When I say rules,

557
00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:49,300
Mel:
I mean the prescriptive rules of when someone posts something on screenwriting

558
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:51,500
Mel:
and everyone goes, oh, you broke all the rules. I'm saying this is good.

559
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,300
Mel:
I'm saying most of those rules are suggestions or most of those rules are given

560
00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:57,740
Mel:
to you when you are learning how to write for a reason.

561
00:38:57,740 --> 00:39:00,580
Mel:
But that they are not but a lot of people get oh you

562
00:39:00,580 --> 00:39:03,440
Mel:
can't sell a script like that you have to format the

563
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,160
Mel:
script this way if you want it to sell that's how i

564
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,020
Mel:
mean rules and it should break them because it does it well and it's a well-written

565
00:39:10,020 --> 00:39:14,300
Mel:
screenplay and you can follow it and that's what matters and it gives you the

566
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:19,300
Mel:
emotionality of what the end product will but i'm saying that a lot of people

567
00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:22,400
Mel:
would look at this and say oh you have to fix that before you can send it you

568
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,080
Mel:
before you can have it sold or read or you know nominated for an oscar.

569
00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:31,910
Chas:
All right, so we've covered narrative point of view, including the opening.

570
00:39:31,930 --> 00:39:38,830
Chas:
We've covered French scenes somewhat because that's how it keeps this very contained story moving.

571
00:39:39,070 --> 00:39:42,130
Chas:
It's just characters coming and moving.

572
00:39:42,410 --> 00:39:51,770
Chas:
But I also think, you know, somewhat clichédly, there are three plot lines running

573
00:39:51,770 --> 00:39:54,730
Chas:
through or three main relationships.

574
00:39:54,730 --> 00:39:58,550
Chas:
There's obviously larry's relationship

575
00:39:58,550 --> 00:40:01,950
Chas:
with rogers will because rogers

576
00:40:01,950 --> 00:40:05,030
Chas:
comes in and seeks out larry and tells larry

577
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:10,670
Chas:
gives larry a proposal a business proposal for them to work together again and

578
00:40:10,670 --> 00:40:17,090
Chas:
then larry pitches rogers back an idea for a big show and rogers it's it's so

579
00:40:17,090 --> 00:40:22,290
Chas:
it's so great writing the way that the those beats are structured rogers is

580
00:40:22,290 --> 00:40:24,930
Chas:
actually intrigued and then And they have back and forth.

581
00:40:25,110 --> 00:40:30,610
Chas:
And Larry keeps accidentally offending Rogers by saying, essentially saying,

582
00:40:30,850 --> 00:40:33,590
Chas:
not like Oklahoma. Not shit like Oklahoma.

583
00:40:33,890 --> 00:40:35,990
Mel:
Not commercially successful drivel.

584
00:40:36,390 --> 00:40:36,910
Chas:
Yes.

585
00:40:37,130 --> 00:40:37,750
Mel:
Gods forbid.

586
00:40:38,430 --> 00:40:42,470
Excerpts:
I don't know. With a war on, do audiences really want to watch Cannibals singing

587
00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:44,710
Excerpts:
Porgy and Bess? What do audiences want to watch?

588
00:40:45,150 --> 00:40:47,290
Excerpts:
Cowboys hooping it up at the box social?

589
00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:52,710
Excerpts:
Well, yes. Apparently. Oh, that's right. I forgot. Oklahoma!

590
00:40:52,970 --> 00:40:55,870
Excerpts:
Exclamation point. addresses the urgency of a nation at war.

591
00:40:56,170 --> 00:41:00,310
Excerpts:
I think every serviceman in that audience tonight thought about what we're fighting

592
00:41:00,310 --> 00:41:02,190
Excerpts:
for, even if we're a second or two, and he thought about it.

593
00:41:02,190 --> 00:41:03,770
Excerpts:
What is it we're fighting for, exactly?

594
00:41:04,110 --> 00:41:06,730
Excerpts:
Feisty little girls in gingham dresses who can't say no.

595
00:41:08,370 --> 00:41:11,210
Excerpts:
Okay, all right. Dick, dick, dick. Come on, just...

596
00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:16,130
Excerpts:
Those characters are unrecognizable as human beings.

597
00:41:16,310 --> 00:41:18,690
Excerpts:
I think plenty of people recognize them. They recognize love.

598
00:41:18,850 --> 00:41:21,870
Excerpts:
He needs rescuing big time. They recognize family.

599
00:41:22,170 --> 00:41:25,210
Excerpts:
They recognize pride in their country. You're starting to sound like Yankee Doodle Dandy.

600
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:33,630
Chas:
But Larry keeps pushing back on Wins Rogers back over intellectually by appealing to his...

601
00:41:33,630 --> 00:41:36,550
Mel:
He's a charming guy. He's quick. He's funny. He's erudite.

602
00:41:37,350 --> 00:41:41,330
Mel:
Yeah, you understand why people are drawn to him, even as you understand why

603
00:41:41,330 --> 00:41:42,870
Mel:
people cannot continue to work with him.

604
00:41:43,110 --> 00:41:50,310
Chas:
Yeah. And you've got all of that, that storyline culminates in Larry has, I don't know why,

605
00:41:50,470 --> 00:41:56,190
Chas:
but he's trying to organize a party that when he should know that everyone he

606
00:41:56,190 --> 00:41:59,610
Chas:
knows is going to be going to the Oklahoma after party.

607
00:42:01,030 --> 00:42:04,950
Mel:
That's a very that okay look let's let's get to your other two storylines i think that's.

608
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:05,570
Chas:
A really interesting.

609
00:42:05,570 --> 00:42:08,830
Mel:
Emotional beat but the other two so yes the the main.

610
00:42:08,830 --> 00:42:11,590
Chas:
One which is hanging over the whole thing which we don't.

611
00:42:11,590 --> 00:42:14,370
Mel:
See first but it it you know it hangs over the narrative because he's coming

612
00:42:14,370 --> 00:42:17,350
Mel:
from oklahoma so that's the first relationship is hart and rogers.

613
00:42:17,350 --> 00:42:20,850
Chas:
Yeah then you've got larry hart

614
00:42:20,850 --> 00:42:24,050
Chas:
and elizabeth he's trying to win this ephemeral

615
00:42:24,050 --> 00:42:26,950
Chas:
beauty over and i think it's fairly

616
00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:33,670
Chas:
explicit that he sees winning as sex like he wants to have sex with her and

617
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:39,410
Chas:
sees that as this thing that i mean it's not just him that they're having a

618
00:42:39,410 --> 00:42:45,770
Chas:
running conversation behind his back at the bar about whether he's slept with her or not so.

619
00:42:45,770 --> 00:42:53,150
Excerpts:
Do you fuck or not he thinks tonight might be the night larry larry larry what

620
00:42:53,150 --> 00:42:58,070
Excerpts:
do you think she sees in him i think she sees a rich and famous guy who can help her career.

621
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:04,460
Excerpts:
I think she recognizes she's being adored by one of the great appreciators of beauty.

622
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,260
Mel:
Okay, we're tabling this along with the party because I think that they are

623
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:12,160
Mel:
actually related and that they are similar emotionally.

624
00:43:12,460 --> 00:43:14,760
Mel:
So yes, those two relationships.

625
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,980
Chas:
And then the third one is with, I know that they're distinct,

626
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,060
Chas:
like it's Larry's relationship with the bar regulars.

627
00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:28,400
Chas:
So it's with the bartender, with Morty the pianist, and with Andy the writer.

628
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,000
Chas:
And I know that they have different moments individually within those three

629
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,880
Chas:
relationships, but I feel they are the audience surrogates.

630
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,800
Chas:
They are the ones that Larry can truly be himself around.

631
00:43:39,260 --> 00:43:43,900
Chas:
They're the ones that he will openly say Oklahoma is a piece of shit to,

632
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:50,700
Chas:
that he will elaborate on how he feels about Casablanca, about other movies, about his own music.

633
00:43:51,540 --> 00:43:57,140
Chas:
And they come back and forth with him. And even though he's only met White,

634
00:43:57,660 --> 00:44:02,460
Chas:
the writer of Stuart Little, the first time that evening, they immediately connect.

635
00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:06,640
Mel:
And they know who each other are. Yes. Unlike Morty. So Morty is the,

636
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:07,820
Mel:
I don't know, who are you?

637
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,860
Mel:
Oh, right. But, you know, they run in the same circles, White and Hart.

638
00:44:12,020 --> 00:44:15,460
Mel:
So, like, they know who each other are. And then he's old friends with Eddie.

639
00:44:15,740 --> 00:44:18,740
Mel:
So, like, you have these three different relationships. Yeah.

640
00:44:18,740 --> 00:44:21,680
Chas:
But to me it felt like a plot

641
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,920
Chas:
line where it's like yeah how these

642
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,720
Chas:
people feel about larry is how the audience is

643
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:32,040
Chas:
meant to feel about barry yep complicated yeah all

644
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,180
Chas:
right so that's so not only do you have these french scenes larry is bouncing

645
00:44:36,180 --> 00:44:41,680
Chas:
continually between those three plot lines so to somewhat of a guru ish they've

646
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:49,540
Chas:
got an a plot line and a b plot line and a c between those yep,

647
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:56,200
Chas:
Because it's also the, because Larry is so clearly performing for Hart and for

648
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,080
Chas:
Hammerstein and all the people from the Oklahoma cast and crew,

649
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:04,400
Chas:
he's truly himself, and he's putting on a different performance for Elizabeth.

650
00:45:04,460 --> 00:45:10,800
Chas:
I feel it's only with Morty, Eddie, and is it Andy White, the writer?

651
00:45:11,620 --> 00:45:18,400
Mel:
Yeah, yeah. I still think he's performing for them. It's just that Eddie is

652
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,180
Mel:
aware of the performance and the other two are much less so.

653
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:28,100
Chas:
But he allows himself to be much more vulnerable or self-reflective,

654
00:45:28,340 --> 00:45:32,200
Chas:
certainly bordering on morose on occasions. Yeah.

655
00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:37,480
Mel:
Even sometimes when he's being true, he's still doing it as a performance because

656
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,220
Mel:
he wants something from that.

657
00:45:39,810 --> 00:45:42,790
Mel:
Extension of his actual self to be lauded to be.

658
00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:45,710
Chas:
Worshipped to be appreciated for his wit.

659
00:45:45,710 --> 00:45:50,670
Mel:
And talent yeah so those i i think those three are really great okay.

660
00:45:50,670 --> 00:45:55,770
Chas:
That's another way that has made it compelling but now you tell me why i'm wrong in my emotional.

661
00:45:55,770 --> 00:45:58,550
Mel:
Read of them i'm look the thing with

662
00:45:58,550 --> 00:46:01,370
Mel:
the party and elizabeth right and i don't

663
00:46:01,370 --> 00:46:04,250
Mel:
think there is a flat answer and i think that's part

664
00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:08,150
Mel:
of the point but both of those are things where he

665
00:46:08,150 --> 00:46:11,250
Mel:
of course he knows that the after

666
00:46:11,250 --> 00:46:14,170
Mel:
party is going to like they have a planned after party where

667
00:46:14,170 --> 00:46:16,990
Mel:
there's going to be an open bar there's going to be this of course he knows that like

668
00:46:16,990 --> 00:46:19,830
Mel:
even if he could have had sex with elizabeth three months ago

669
00:46:19,830 --> 00:46:22,770
Mel:
like the way that he's let this go on and the way that he's

670
00:46:22,770 --> 00:46:26,110
Mel:
had all these other you know things and and he knows

671
00:46:26,110 --> 00:46:29,850
Mel:
that it's not going to happen what he wants is

672
00:46:29,850 --> 00:46:32,670
Mel:
to say oh of course i could have but there were

673
00:46:32,670 --> 00:46:35,330
Mel:
these other insurmountable obstacles so none of it

674
00:46:35,330 --> 00:46:38,250
Mel:
lands on me but i can again in the future i could

675
00:46:38,250 --> 00:46:41,010
Mel:
have thrown this giant party everyone would come to my house whatever but

676
00:46:41,010 --> 00:46:44,110
Mel:
oh there was this other thing i could have had sex with her but like

677
00:46:44,110 --> 00:46:47,050
Mel:
you know the timing wasn't exactly right and blah blah blah but like you know next week

678
00:46:47,050 --> 00:46:49,910
Mel:
we'll meet up again but he wants everyone to think he to know

679
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:52,850
Mel:
he has in the past but thrown these parties had

680
00:46:52,850 --> 00:46:56,010
Mel:
this sex done these things wooed these you know young

681
00:46:56,010 --> 00:46:59,510
Mel:
beauties etc and could now

682
00:46:59,510 --> 00:47:02,930
Mel:
if he wanted to and there weren't this other previous engagement that everyone

683
00:47:02,930 --> 00:47:07,650
Mel:
else was obligated to and will again in the future like that's it's it's an

684
00:47:07,650 --> 00:47:12,390
Mel:
easy out for him to be able to still say on the center of this i can still i

685
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:16,870
Mel:
can still get it but you know just not does he think he can.

686
00:47:16,870 --> 00:47:18,750
Chas:
Though i feel like he's got commentary.

687
00:47:18,750 --> 00:47:22,130
Mel:
He's performing for himself as much as everyone else sure.

688
00:47:22,130 --> 00:47:25,110
Chas:
There's one speech that i found and there's a moment that

689
00:47:25,110 --> 00:47:28,190
Chas:
is in my brain that i think i saw that i can't find in the script so i don't

690
00:47:28,190 --> 00:47:31,390
Chas:
know if my brain is just playing tricks on me or if it's genuinely just not

691
00:47:31,390 --> 00:47:35,390
Chas:
in the script that it that it might have been in the film and it's not in the

692
00:47:35,390 --> 00:47:39,250
Chas:
script that we have but it's on for the from the version we have it's on page

693
00:47:39,250 --> 00:47:42,370
Chas:
58 and it's in the he's talking to eddie,

694
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:50,660
Chas:
White has left. It's just after Larry's had his first big interaction with Rogers

695
00:47:50,660 --> 00:47:52,100
Chas:
after he's come in from the show.

696
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:55,220
Chas:
And he starts talking about.

697
00:47:55,500 --> 00:48:00,480
Excerpts:
Somewhat morosely, They should put my picture on that bottle.

698
00:48:00,700 --> 00:48:04,780
Excerpts:
The whiskey that made Loren's heart unemployable.

699
00:48:05,260 --> 00:48:06,600
Excerpts:
Buy war bonds.

700
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,680
Excerpts:
You know, I've started to hear things wrong. The other night,

701
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:20,600
Excerpts:
I was listening to this singer go on about her cigarette heart.

702
00:48:20,820 --> 00:48:25,680
Excerpts:
And I thought, now that is an original metaphor. My cigarette heart.

703
00:48:26,260 --> 00:48:31,660
Excerpts:
Then I realized she was singing my secret heart. I can't remember anything anymore either.

704
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:37,280
Excerpts:
That should be the title of my autobiography. Stop me if I've told you this

705
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,440
Excerpts:
already. And we'll print the entire text twice.

706
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:45,160
Chas:
He ends it on a gag because he's

707
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,200
Chas:
funny but the i feel like he is aware

708
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,320
Chas:
that he is somewhat done

709
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,740
Chas:
even as he's pitching this incredible marco polo

710
00:48:54,740 --> 00:49:00,880
Chas:
even if he is trying to seduce either physically or emotionally or intellectually

711
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:08,200
Chas:
trying to seduce elizabeth here's why so he earlier you know we'll we'll get

712
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:14,100
Chas:
into the dialogue and how delicious it is and the tools that it uses in terms of repetition.

713
00:49:14,180 --> 00:49:18,680
Chas:
But this is why I got to the point where I feel like his relationship with Elizabeth

714
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,920
Chas:
feels like he's lost whatever it was that he was yearning for is early on.

715
00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:26,020
Chas:
He's in the, that one scene in the bathroom with the piano player.

716
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:32,440
Chas:
He's talking about how he proposed to a famous singer. And she said, she said.

717
00:49:33,060 --> 00:49:36,740
Excerpts:
I love you, darling. Just not that way.

718
00:49:39,350 --> 00:49:50,490
Excerpts:
Not that way. Three little words, ten little letters that mean game over, schmuck.

719
00:49:52,310 --> 00:49:57,430
Chas:
And then Elizabeth uses that exact phrase back to him.

720
00:49:58,150 --> 00:49:59,910
Excerpts:
You know I love you, Larry.

721
00:50:02,090 --> 00:50:03,290
Excerpts:
You do?

722
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:10,470
Excerpts:
Just not that way.

723
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:17,250
Chas:
So he's told us earlier in the script in the film in the story he's told us

724
00:50:17,250 --> 00:50:20,030
Chas:
that when you hear those words it means game over schmuck.

725
00:50:20,030 --> 00:50:24,150
Mel:
Do you think the story that he tells

726
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:29,330
Mel:
in the bathroom that he is that he is referring to a woman or a man oh.

727
00:50:29,330 --> 00:50:30,310
Chas:
I thought it was a woman.

728
00:50:31,350 --> 00:50:34,230
Mel:
Not what he says who he's actually referring to

729
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:36,910
Mel:
do you think that it was a man that he

730
00:50:36,910 --> 00:50:42,370
Mel:
fell in love with who then said i don't love you that way whether he was gay

731
00:50:42,370 --> 00:50:45,870
Mel:
and was using that as an excuse because oh i don't want to be with you or whether

732
00:50:45,870 --> 00:50:50,350
Mel:
it was because he fell you know who who amongst us has not fallen for the straightest

733
00:50:50,350 --> 00:50:56,770
Mel:
of people you know and um because that was the interpretation that I took from it.

734
00:50:56,930 --> 00:51:01,750
Mel:
And I do agree with you that the line repeating is meant to be that,

735
00:51:01,870 --> 00:51:10,650
Mel:
but he's, in my mind, the strength is even firmer because it is from all genders, essentially.

736
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:14,690
Mel:
Like, it's from, he's getting it from all sides, and now when he can't even

737
00:51:14,690 --> 00:51:17,770
Mel:
get it from, you know, here, he's really sunk.

738
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:22,410
Mel:
But he can't openly admit that, obviously, especially not without landing on a joke.

739
00:51:23,070 --> 00:51:25,450
Mel:
But I think he's known for a while.

740
00:51:26,460 --> 00:51:32,040
Chas:
But they come out of that, of the coat room, and then immediately he's invited

741
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,180
Chas:
Elizabeth to his party, and immediately he introduces Elizabeth to Rogers,

742
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:38,840
Chas:
and Rogers is so smitten with her,

743
00:51:38,940 --> 00:51:43,820
Chas:
and she appears so smitten with him that Larry deliberately brings up, where's your wife,

744
00:51:43,980 --> 00:51:46,000
Chas:
to Rogers?

745
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:51,000
Chas:
And Rogers invites Elizabeth to the after party, and she not only says she's

746
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,960
Chas:
going to go, she goes with him, leaves with him. Like it's such a,

747
00:51:54,040 --> 00:52:00,740
Chas:
it's a, it's a meeting point of those two plot lines where it feels like Larry is losing both.

748
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,560
Chas:
Rogers is leaving without him. And so is Elizabeth.

749
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,620
Mel:
And Elizabeth is leaving with Rogers, not necessarily because she wants to sleep

750
00:52:08,620 --> 00:52:10,040
Mel:
with him, because I don't think she actually does.

751
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:15,480
Mel:
It's because of the proximity to the theater and his success with Oklahoma.

752
00:52:15,740 --> 00:52:19,900
Mel:
And so I think that stings Hart much more than the sexual rejection.

753
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:21,760
Chas:
Yeah. and.

754
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,740
Mel:
Yeah all the plot lines sort of converge right there at the end which is really

755
00:52:24,740 --> 00:52:28,420
Mel:
great because they they pop in and out of each other speaking of sexual metaphors

756
00:52:28,420 --> 00:52:32,560
Mel:
throughout earlier and then they sort of at that very last scene they just all

757
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,840
Mel:
start crashing into each other in these really horrible wonderful ways.

758
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,680
Chas:
And look where i agree with

759
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,920
Chas:
you is i think andy that one of the very few moments

760
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:49,580
Chas:
i mean larry's very much there he's looking at himself in the mirror like Preparing

761
00:52:49,580 --> 00:52:58,320
Chas:
for the Oklahoma people to come in And Eddie asks Andy White Did he fuck her

762
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:03,200
Chas:
or not And Andy replies he thinks Tonight might be the night And,

763
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,900
Chas:
Andy asks Eddie, what do you think she sees in him? Eddie responds,

764
00:53:08,220 --> 00:53:11,180
Chas:
I think she sees a rich and famous guy who can help her career.

765
00:53:12,380 --> 00:53:15,960
Chas:
Andy responds, I think she recognizes she's being adored by one of the great

766
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,900
Chas:
appreciators of beauty. And look, they've hung a hat on her.

767
00:53:19,940 --> 00:53:20,180
Mel:
Great line.

768
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:26,700
Chas:
They've broken the audience POV or certainly who's driving the scene just for

769
00:53:26,700 --> 00:53:32,680
Chas:
a moment to get that line out. To get a character talking about Larry in a way

770
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,300
Chas:
that he wouldn't talk to Larry's face, perhaps.

771
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:44,020
Chas:
And to explain to us, I do think that is what, like, I think Elizabeth intellectually,

772
00:53:44,020 --> 00:53:45,580
Chas:
like, shares with Larry.

773
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,560
Chas:
He knows that he is open to her in a way...

774
00:53:52,180 --> 00:53:55,640
Chas:
It ends with him, you know, picking up his cards off the floor.

775
00:53:55,820 --> 00:53:58,380
Chas:
He's dropped his cards on the floor of the bar. And he's like,

776
00:53:58,500 --> 00:54:00,540
Chas:
maybe one day she'll actually ask me a question.

777
00:54:00,660 --> 00:54:04,700
Chas:
Maybe one day she'll actually be interested in me. But he knows that if he's

778
00:54:04,700 --> 00:54:09,940
Chas:
as interested in her as he possibly can be, that's his way to keep her attention.

779
00:54:10,260 --> 00:54:11,880
Chas:
And she does enjoy it, I feel.

780
00:54:12,780 --> 00:54:16,680
Chas:
Reading the script, I loved the coat room scene between him and Elizabeth,

781
00:54:16,860 --> 00:54:21,020
Chas:
where Elizabeth is regaling Larry with a...

782
00:54:21,020 --> 00:54:27,700
Chas:
The night of her 20th birthday and an embarrassing series of sexual liaisons

783
00:54:27,700 --> 00:54:31,000
Chas:
with Cooper, a frat boy from Yale.

784
00:54:31,380 --> 00:54:35,060
Mel:
Which also makes it apparent why she would be interested in an older man because

785
00:54:35,060 --> 00:54:37,120
Mel:
at least he would know his way around.

786
00:54:37,620 --> 00:54:41,060
Mel:
Because that story is great, but obviously it's like, oh yeah,

787
00:54:41,140 --> 00:54:43,000
Mel:
frat boys have no fucking idea what they're doing.

788
00:54:44,100 --> 00:54:52,740
Chas:
But it very much feels that Larry, watching the scene, I felt so much more uncomfortable

789
00:54:52,740 --> 00:54:54,380
Chas:
than when I was reading it.

790
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,100
Chas:
Like it felt, Larry felt so much more lecherous, to use a word,

791
00:54:59,300 --> 00:55:07,580
Chas:
so much more needy, desperate, never going to get this, and thirsty, I guess,

792
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:12,960
Chas:
is another term that the kids allegedly use. yeah.

793
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,120
Mel:
Because i obviously already had that sort of fresh in my.

794
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,280
Chas:
Mind as i was reading the the page and so

795
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,060
Chas:
i felt the i felt the pace dip in that

796
00:55:21,060 --> 00:55:23,940
Chas:
scene watching it in a way that i did not feel reading

797
00:55:23,940 --> 00:55:27,080
Chas:
the script which i found really interesting because she's not talking

798
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:33,840
Chas:
slowly the the pauses are not necessarily elongated but it is a long french

799
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:40,140
Chas:
scene in comparison to the others and it is quiet and it is intense and it is

800
00:55:40,140 --> 00:55:45,260
Chas:
Margot Qualley's Elizabeth telling us a story. Did you feel the same thing?

801
00:55:46,490 --> 00:55:49,090
Mel:
In terms of the lecherousness, no.

802
00:55:49,170 --> 00:55:50,750
Chas:
Okay, lecherousness or pace drop?

803
00:55:51,550 --> 00:55:55,850
Mel:
Yeah, well, I think reading it felt a lot faster than watching it, yes.

804
00:55:56,050 --> 00:56:00,450
Mel:
I agree with that. I agree with that in a lot of the script,

805
00:56:00,670 --> 00:56:02,090
Mel:
but particularly that scene.

806
00:56:02,210 --> 00:56:09,590
Mel:
Partly because it's long, partly because it's the scene where the majority of

807
00:56:09,590 --> 00:56:13,670
Mel:
it, it's not Margaret Qualley's fault, but the majority of it is telling somebody

808
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:14,670
Mel:
something that happened,

809
00:56:16,010 --> 00:56:18,810
Mel:
in pretty dramatic detail and we never flash to it and

810
00:56:18,810 --> 00:56:22,170
Mel:
there's no there's very few cuts and there's nothing else happening and

811
00:56:22,170 --> 00:56:25,810
Mel:
so it is going to drag and i think it's meant to but for me i was a little bit

812
00:56:25,810 --> 00:56:29,970
Mel:
like yeah okay i get it especially because in contrast to a lot of the rest

813
00:56:29,970 --> 00:56:33,610
Mel:
of the scenes where you've got snappy repartee and all these other pop cultures

814
00:56:33,610 --> 00:56:37,030
Mel:
and other people interjecting and the music in the background and like all this

815
00:56:37,030 --> 00:56:40,770
Mel:
other movement and it does skid to a halt which is fine,

816
00:56:40,970 --> 00:56:43,850
Mel:
but it definitely skidded to a halt.

817
00:56:44,370 --> 00:56:44,870
Chas:
Hmm.

818
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,100
Chas:
And I'm not being critical. I think I'm just, you know, what I'm trying to dig

819
00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:56,460
Chas:
into here is how could we write a script about a, you know,

820
00:56:57,060 --> 00:57:01,960
Chas:
happening in real time, contain single, largely single location, 90 minutes,

821
00:57:02,580 --> 00:57:05,160
Chas:
something that we could, any of us could shoot in 15 days.

822
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,540
Chas:
Like that is the challenge that I'm kind of setting myself with the current

823
00:57:07,540 --> 00:57:09,300
Chas:
project that I'm working on.

824
00:57:09,860 --> 00:57:14,020
Mel:
Well, try to get someone who's as good at delivering dialogue as Ethan Hawke. That's easy.

825
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:16,400
Chas:
Yeah. Cast Ethan Hawke and Margot Quali.

826
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:21,340
Mel:
Because a lot of this is dependent on, in my opinion, the Bobby Cannavale character

827
00:57:21,340 --> 00:57:23,000
Mel:
more than almost anyone else.

828
00:57:23,220 --> 00:57:24,080
Chas:
Who's the bartender.

829
00:57:24,380 --> 00:57:28,020
Mel:
The bartender, because he is the person who does connect a lot of people.

830
00:57:28,300 --> 00:57:31,660
Mel:
And he's the person who everything has to bounce off of.

831
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:37,440
Mel:
And we don't really get to know anything about him the way that we get to know stuff about Hart.

832
00:57:37,900 --> 00:57:42,920
Mel:
Like, you don't know about his life, really, other than experiences he's had with Hart.

833
00:57:43,020 --> 00:57:46,240
Mel:
But you still have to care about him and think he's funny and think he's whatever.

834
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,140
Mel:
Like he's not a historical character or anything

835
00:57:49,140 --> 00:57:52,220
Mel:
like that but yeah the the dialogue of

836
00:57:52,220 --> 00:57:55,520
Mel:
this demands performers who

837
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,380
Mel:
can keep up because the the repartee

838
00:57:59,380 --> 00:58:02,300
Mel:
the pop culture references and right off the bat within the first

839
00:58:02,300 --> 00:58:05,240
Mel:
certainly within the first 10 pages it has heart

840
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,080
Mel:
make a big deal about rhyme schemes internal

841
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,020
Mel:
rhymes feminine rhymes all these other bits if you're

842
00:58:11,020 --> 00:58:16,520
Mel:
going to have a character make a big deal about the verbosity of people talking

843
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:22,940
Mel:
on stage and screen then you have to deliver on that and that the writing only

844
00:58:22,940 --> 00:58:26,560
Mel:
gets you so far does the writing have to be good yes if the writing is good

845
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,240
Mel:
can the whole thing still fall over yes sure.

846
00:58:31,510 --> 00:58:34,670
Chas:
I was lucky enough to read this before I watched it.

847
00:58:34,850 --> 00:58:40,870
Chas:
And look, I knew Ethan Hawke was Larry Hart, but I didn't know the casting of anyone else.

848
00:58:41,130 --> 00:58:44,530
Chas:
And I still found this river thing to read.

849
00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:45,390
Mel:
I think it's a great read.

850
00:58:46,210 --> 00:58:49,810
Chas:
And so let's talk a little bit about that how do they keep it compelling well

851
00:58:49,810 --> 00:58:55,510
Chas:
you've got the the french scenes that's one way we've got the interweaving storylines

852
00:58:55,510 --> 00:59:00,330
Chas:
bouncing off one another that's another way we know how the story is going to

853
00:59:00,330 --> 00:59:02,070
Chas:
end so we got that sense of,

854
00:59:03,130 --> 00:59:09,770
Chas:
inevitability fate we're ahead of larry to an extent and i think you know use

855
00:59:09,770 --> 00:59:14,290
Chas:
you say pop culture references we are talking about 1940s pop culture references

856
00:59:14,290 --> 00:59:16,650
Chas:
not uh contemporary yeah.

857
00:59:16,650 --> 00:59:22,570
Mel:
But they're still funny and interesting and and they use mostly big ones i will

858
00:59:22,570 --> 00:59:26,870
Mel:
also say i think one thing that it does that helps keep it compelling is the

859
00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:29,150
Mel:
continued use of we not just.

860
00:59:29,150 --> 00:59:29,610
Chas:
We see.

861
00:59:29,610 --> 00:59:36,330
Mel:
We are in a box seat with we are with and and it it doesn't it keeps the reader

862
00:59:36,330 --> 00:59:43,450
Mel:
engaged and with the characters a bit and it's there's not a lot of action lines but when there.

863
00:59:43,450 --> 00:59:43,930
Chas:
Are action.

864
00:59:43,930 --> 00:59:48,450
Mel:
Lines it often uses we and i think it helps carry us along through the scenes.

865
00:59:48,450 --> 00:59:54,110
Chas:
Yeah and the let's talk a little bit about the dialogue in particular because

866
00:59:54,110 --> 00:59:59,510
Chas:
it is very repetitive but repetitive in an amazing way we've already talked

867
00:59:59,510 --> 01:00:05,610
Chas:
about the the foreshadowing of the the line about just not that way.

868
01:00:07,190 --> 01:00:12,770
Chas:
Everything Hart says gets repeated three or four times at a minimum.

869
01:00:13,010 --> 01:00:15,630
Mel:
It's very lyrical in that way. A lot of music repeats things.

870
01:00:16,050 --> 01:00:16,570
Chas:
Absolutely.

871
01:00:16,870 --> 01:00:20,710
Mel:
It's almost like there's bridges within the dialogue that repeat.

872
01:00:21,310 --> 01:00:28,710
Chas:
He keeps the first kind of opening scene. So not the very opening, sorry. Let me be clear.

873
01:00:29,390 --> 01:00:33,650
Chas:
Larry in the alleyway is the opening scene. Larry walking out of Oklahoma after

874
01:00:33,650 --> 01:00:37,410
Chas:
clearly not enjoying it is the next scene.

875
01:00:37,570 --> 01:00:42,210
Chas:
But then when he arrives at the bar, that first sort of interaction before Elizabeth

876
01:00:42,210 --> 01:00:45,010
Chas:
arrives and then before the Oklahoma crew arrive.

877
01:00:47,570 --> 01:00:51,530
Chas:
He's constantly trying to tell them about Elizabeth.

878
01:00:51,770 --> 01:00:55,550
Chas:
And he keeps sidetracking himself, talking about Casablanca,

879
01:00:55,650 --> 01:00:57,690
Chas:
talking about music, talking about the lyrics of Oklahoma.

880
01:00:57,690 --> 01:01:01,270
Chas:
But he keeps trying to talk about Elizabeth and

881
01:01:01,270 --> 01:01:04,690
Chas:
coming back to her and even after she

882
01:01:04,690 --> 01:01:08,870
Chas:
comes in so there's so much repetition of

883
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:11,930
Chas:
and really great lines like that line I mentioned about

884
01:01:11,930 --> 01:01:14,750
Chas:
cigarette heart that ends up coming back in

885
01:01:14,750 --> 01:01:18,250
Chas:
a beautiful way as a callback almost every

886
01:01:18,250 --> 01:01:21,130
Chas:
piece of dialogue is a hook is

887
01:01:21,130 --> 01:01:24,470
Chas:
a play on words is repeated like

888
01:01:24,470 --> 01:01:30,650
Chas:
you say in the same way that music is so the amount of talent and craft that

889
01:01:30,650 --> 01:01:36,930
Chas:
has gone into these half-page speeches to make them to make you be able to hear

890
01:01:36,930 --> 01:01:41,130
Chas:
them i could hear the what do you call it the mid-atlantic,

891
01:01:43,650 --> 01:01:50,890
Chas:
american uh newsreader sort of patter and the pace of it it felt like you know

892
01:01:50,890 --> 01:01:57,710
Chas:
screwball comedies reading it off the page i mean there's there's there's jokes in there like.

893
01:01:57,710 --> 01:02:02,010
Excerpts:
What do you call a tireless relentless homosexual.

894
01:02:05,650 --> 01:02:13,270
Chas:
Indefatigable and then eddie tries to do it later and he forgets the punchline right oh i.

895
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:15,750
Mel:
Forget and it kind of still.

896
01:02:15,750 --> 01:02:17,250
Chas:
Works right as you're.

897
01:02:17,250 --> 01:02:18,290
Mel:
Actually trying to figure out yeah.

898
01:02:19,950 --> 01:02:24,930
Chas:
Elizabeth you know tantalizes and their first in her first appearance tantalizes

899
01:02:24,930 --> 01:02:29,790
Chas:
larry with the story that she's later going to tell near the end of the script and says I.

900
01:02:29,790 --> 01:02:35,410
Excerpts:
Demand to know the shorthand version now the shorthand version okay,

901
01:02:37,450 --> 01:02:39,810
Excerpts:
the skin on his back was flawless.

902
01:02:39,810 --> 01:02:44,310
Chas:
The the tantalizing line is the skin on his back was flawless and that line

903
01:02:44,310 --> 01:02:49,730
Chas:
gets repeated throughout in many different contexts recontextualized I'm.

904
01:02:49,730 --> 01:02:55,550
Excerpts:
Writing an entire musical about her it's inspired by those Frank Capra war pictures why we fight?

905
01:02:55,890 --> 01:02:58,210
Excerpts:
This one will be called Why?

906
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,980
Mel:
There's a little bit of a cheat code in terms of they don't just reference pop

907
01:03:09,980 --> 01:03:11,700
Mel:
culture, they quote it quite a bit.

908
01:03:11,860 --> 01:03:17,060
Mel:
And when you're quoting very famous lines, like you do have to be careful with it, obviously.

909
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,440
Mel:
But even when you're quoting bad songs from Oklahoma, even when he's like riffing on, you are,

910
01:03:21,620 --> 01:03:24,800
Mel:
some of that stuff reads better than it sings or it, you know,

911
01:03:24,940 --> 01:03:29,380
Mel:
there's an interesting way of, you know, that rule of threes where even if the

912
01:03:29,380 --> 01:03:33,340
Mel:
line is really done by the third time you repeat it with a slightly different like intonation,

913
01:03:33,540 --> 01:03:36,820
Mel:
it's funny and it's rhythmic and you're still like, you're carrying a lot of things.

914
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:41,160
Mel:
And so, yeah, they're quoting bits. They're quoting his own songs.

915
01:03:41,420 --> 01:03:44,160
Mel:
They're quoting, you know, Blue Moon is quoted multiple times.

916
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,540
Mel:
And there's a lot of music going on in the background that accentuates that,

917
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:48,820
Mel:
which is not in the script.

918
01:03:49,380 --> 01:03:54,300
Chas:
I mean, it is because every time Hart says, like, something occurs to him.

919
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,580
Chas:
It doesn't have the same effect in the script. Like that line that someone says.

920
01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:00,000
Chas:
He throws to Morty the piano player. Do you know this person?

921
01:04:00,060 --> 01:04:03,620
Chas:
Do you know that song? And Morty will nearly every time start playing.

922
01:04:03,620 --> 01:04:08,480
Mel:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it says talk, sings. Like it notes when characters are

923
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,020
Mel:
singing or talking or quoting things, but it doesn't have the same effect.

924
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:17,380
Mel:
Like you're not necessarily hearing them or hearing both of them at the same time as you're reading.

925
01:04:19,650 --> 01:04:24,530
Chas:
So, have we got, are there any other elements of the script that make,

926
01:04:24,750 --> 01:04:28,810
Chas:
that you want to tell someone you want to write a cheap script that will attract

927
01:04:28,810 --> 01:04:32,970
Chas:
Academy Award winning talent that will in turn,

928
01:04:33,410 --> 01:04:39,990
Chas:
you know, get made and can be shot in 15 days and then receive massive accolades?

929
01:04:40,570 --> 01:04:44,730
Mel:
Well, all right. I think the first thing is it did take 12 years for this script

930
01:04:44,730 --> 01:04:47,630
Mel:
to get, you know, actually made. So, you know, be prepared for that.

931
01:04:48,610 --> 01:04:53,210
Mel:
Okay, so here's a line. This is not a line, right, that in and of itself is

932
01:04:53,210 --> 01:04:55,830
Mel:
particularly clever or particularly whatever.

933
01:04:56,510 --> 01:05:02,410
Excerpts:
And later, I'm going to teach you boys my own card game, cocksuckers rummy. Larry, language.

934
01:05:02,730 --> 01:05:06,010
Excerpts:
Oh, you're offended by the word cocksucker. All right, I won't use it.

935
01:05:06,070 --> 01:05:08,010
Excerpts:
I give you my word as a cocksucker.

936
01:05:08,270 --> 01:05:11,750
Mel:
But the context and the fact that it's surrounded by all these other long scenes

937
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:16,190
Mel:
that are very clever and have very complex wordplay and very whatever,

938
01:05:16,190 --> 01:05:19,270
Mel:
like makes that sing and

939
01:05:19,270 --> 01:05:23,170
Mel:
you you could not write a script that i

940
01:05:23,170 --> 01:05:25,850
Mel:
shouldn't say you could not write this script and have it all be

941
01:05:25,850 --> 01:05:30,910
Mel:
dialogue like that but you also need to have those cheap easy jokes that kind

942
01:05:30,910 --> 01:05:36,230
Mel:
of break up some of the more like esoteric patter and dissection of words and

943
01:05:36,230 --> 01:05:41,210
Mel:
long stories about things like the variety of the dialogue and the variety of

944
01:05:41,210 --> 01:05:44,070
Mel:
the words and what they're using also allows you to have, you know,

945
01:05:44,590 --> 01:05:48,590
Mel:
regular, easy toss-off jokes, and it all works together.

946
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:56,540
Chas:
The craft that goes into, I mean, we already spoke back about how that bit where

947
01:05:56,540 --> 01:05:58,740
Chas:
he's really morose, he does end it with a joke.

948
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:06,280
Chas:
You've mentioned those two opening quotes, which are title cards in the actual movie as well.

949
01:06:06,460 --> 01:06:11,700
Chas:
How he was both, you know, a delight to be with and the saddest human being that they've ever met.

950
01:06:11,940 --> 01:06:15,880
Chas:
This whole movie is about that. like at

951
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:20,120
Chas:
the end of this story he's been rejected by rogers

952
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:23,400
Chas:
he has rejected himself the path to

953
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,200
Chas:
success or a path to success not knowing

954
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:29,280
Chas:
how to be any different than he is he's been rejected by

955
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,880
Chas:
elizabeth and he's picking his cards up talking

956
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,760
Chas:
to himself off the floor of the bar and that's

957
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:41,740
Chas:
when morty starts playing blue moon and that's when larry decides not to go

958
01:06:41,740 --> 01:06:44,880
Chas:
to his party that he's going to throw it just sits there at the bar regaling

959
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:53,580
Chas:
them with stories being both the dynamic and fun to be around but also the saddest man we ever know it.

960
01:06:53,580 --> 01:06:54,380
Mel:
Comes full circle.

961
01:06:54,380 --> 01:06:57,480
Chas:
And you know he did so

962
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:03,120
Chas:
he does in the title cards it tells you he does end up taking rogers up on that

963
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:07,600
Chas:
opportunity that rogers was offering him to to write five new songs for an existing

964
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:15,080
Chas:
show that they did to do a reprisal and but presumably his drinking got in the way.

965
01:07:16,170 --> 01:07:20,110
Mel:
Also, just on a little bit of a craft note, I do find it really interesting

966
01:07:20,110 --> 01:07:28,650
Mel:
that there's no scene break or slug line for it when it fades.

967
01:07:28,890 --> 01:07:32,630
Mel:
It's just the camera pans across and then it says super. But it doesn't actually

968
01:07:32,630 --> 01:07:36,290
Mel:
give you a scene break because it's not breaking.

969
01:07:36,510 --> 01:07:39,250
Mel:
It's just like, well, this story, you know where it ends and it's just going

970
01:07:39,250 --> 01:07:41,770
Mel:
to kind of drift off ethereally into the ends.

971
01:07:41,770 --> 01:07:45,610
Mel:
And so, again, I think that by not doing that, which is which a quote unquote

972
01:07:45,610 --> 01:07:50,170
Mel:
rule would say that's a new scene, it's giving you the feeling that it's meant

973
01:07:50,170 --> 01:07:52,790
Mel:
to evoke. And I just I think that's very effective.

974
01:07:53,430 --> 01:07:53,850
Chas:
Yeah.

975
01:07:55,050 --> 01:08:02,090
Chas:
All right, Mel. Shall we do a summary of our key learnings?

976
01:08:02,690 --> 01:08:07,330
Mel:
Some key learnings. I think there is certainly something to be said for when

977
01:08:07,330 --> 01:08:13,230
Mel:
you are trying to compel a reader through a script, when you know that it is

978
01:08:13,230 --> 01:08:16,770
Mel:
going to be very helter-skelter and go, go, go, that using,

979
01:08:17,870 --> 01:08:21,270
Mel:
especially when your action lines are scarce and you are scarcely using that

980
01:08:21,270 --> 01:08:25,410
Mel:
we see, we are in, we go, we move, is actually very helpful.

981
01:08:25,670 --> 01:08:30,770
Mel:
It would get really tiresome if there were a lot of action scenes and you continued to do it.

982
01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:35,390
Mel:
I think it would feel very sloppy. But when it's used sparingly and in a script

983
01:08:35,390 --> 01:08:39,170
Mel:
that is essentially in real time, it really does help.

984
01:08:39,710 --> 01:08:40,270
Chas:
Yes.

985
01:08:41,130 --> 01:08:50,090
Mel:
I think that using slug lines in a way that suits your needs as opposed to a

986
01:08:50,090 --> 01:08:56,750
Mel:
way that is necessarily conforming to how screenwriting 101 teaches you is can

987
01:08:56,750 --> 01:09:00,690
Mel:
be good yeah if you have a good reason for it to.

988
01:09:00,690 --> 01:09:01,750
Chas:
Your to your benefit.

989
01:09:01,750 --> 01:09:05,030
Mel:
Yeah you have to have your own theory you have to have a reason but it can be

990
01:09:05,030 --> 01:09:08,330
Mel:
very helpful especially once you get into the room with the actors and start

991
01:09:08,330 --> 01:09:11,850
Mel:
figuring out where those emotional breaks are essentially they are looking at

992
01:09:11,850 --> 01:09:15,810
Mel:
where are the emotional breaks what feels like a complete scene versus where

993
01:09:15,810 --> 01:09:20,370
Mel:
we have to move on etc and then labeling it accordingly And I think,

994
01:09:21,390 --> 01:09:25,870
Mel:
yeah, I really loved what you said about how you have essentially three main

995
01:09:25,870 --> 01:09:28,250
Mel:
relationships or three main plot lines.

996
01:09:28,410 --> 01:09:32,290
Mel:
And one of them is comprised of three people, but that still essentially works

997
01:09:32,290 --> 01:09:36,550
Mel:
as your A plot line, B plot line, C plot line, but your quote unquote plot lines

998
01:09:36,550 --> 01:09:37,810
Mel:
are just relationships.

999
01:09:37,810 --> 01:09:42,870
Mel:
I think that is a really great way of, if you were to break it down,

1000
01:09:43,490 --> 01:09:47,010
Mel:
reading the script and seeing how those plot lines come in and out.

1001
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:54,240
Chas:
Awesome. My learnings, I think a lot of people would take the headlines from

1002
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:58,680
Chas:
this script that like, oh, it's happening in real time in one location.

1003
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:01,260
Chas:
That's what I need to write real time in one location.

1004
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:07,780
Chas:
And while I'm absolutely A, trying to do that myself and B,

1005
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:11,900
Chas:
this shows that it's how possible it is

1006
01:10:11,900 --> 01:10:15,500
Chas:
i think this analysis hopefully has

1007
01:10:15,500 --> 01:10:18,340
Chas:
shown the amount of work that's still

1008
01:10:18,340 --> 01:10:22,800
Chas:
going on under the hood of that so yes

1009
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:29,060
Chas:
it's real time but you have narrative point of view you have the the french

1010
01:10:29,060 --> 01:10:38,640
Chas:
scenes you have the incredible dialogue and it's all feeding into one another without,

1011
01:10:39,220 --> 01:10:42,740
Chas:
I mean, I did come out of this movie as I sometimes do going,

1012
01:10:42,900 --> 01:10:47,220
Chas:
I wonder what that was all about without a firm idea for myself, what it was all about.

1013
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:50,880
Chas:
Like, why was I watching this? Was it a tragedy or not?

1014
01:10:51,100 --> 01:10:57,340
Chas:
Should I have enjoyed hanging with Larry or should I, I feel like I'm possibly

1015
01:10:57,340 --> 01:11:03,080
Chas:
as conflicted as the opening titles suggest on an emotional experience.

1016
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:08,760
Mel:
I think one more thing, though, that fits in with that is the pacing,

1017
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:16,180
Mel:
that you do need scenes that are slower and scenes where you take your foot

1018
01:11:16,180 --> 01:11:18,900
Mel:
off the throttle just a little bit. This is not uncut gems.

1019
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:25,680
Mel:
It has variability, and it builds that into the script, even though it's real

1020
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:31,680
Mel:
time. It is very aware that it needs to move at different paces at different times.

1021
01:11:33,820 --> 01:11:36,860
Chas:
Indeed all right well thank you mel hopefully

1022
01:11:36,860 --> 01:11:39,720
Chas:
our listeners get something from that it's definitely

1023
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:42,900
Chas:
not a waste of 90 minutes of your time that

1024
01:11:42,900 --> 01:11:46,520
Chas:
the script is a great read and shows

1025
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,920
Chas:
what is available to you

1026
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,900
Chas:
i mean one of the you talk about pop culture references one

1027
01:11:52,900 --> 01:11:55,760
Chas:
of the closest i got to success was actually

1028
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:58,780
Chas:
taking a little bit of history an unknown

1029
01:11:58,780 --> 01:12:01,660
Chas:
nugget of history that then suddenly became

1030
01:12:01,660 --> 01:12:04,380
Chas:
very well known as another a competing movie got out

1031
01:12:04,380 --> 01:12:07,780
Chas:
before I managed to finish it mine and

1032
01:12:07,780 --> 01:12:11,020
Chas:
I think that is another thing about the

1033
01:12:11,020 --> 01:12:14,620
Chas:
a true life story that

1034
01:12:14,620 --> 01:12:24,900
Chas:
no one knows about uh is definitely about uh value about the the value of of

1035
01:12:24,900 --> 01:12:30,940
Chas:
what people know or what's out there i don't know how successful this would

1036
01:12:30,940 --> 01:12:32,820
Chas:
have been if it had been fictional,

1037
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,420
Chas:
i mean it is fiction but you know what i mean if it had not been about right

1038
01:12:38,420 --> 01:12:41,700
Chas:
real life real people who lived who lived and like we.

1039
01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:44,500
Mel:
Know rogers and hammerstein's names almost.

1040
01:12:44,500 --> 01:12:45,120
Chas:
Everyone knows.

1041
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:49,020
Mel:
Even if you don't surely you've seen i was going to ask you this have you seen

1042
01:12:49,020 --> 01:12:52,480
Mel:
you've seen casablanca but have you seen have you seen casablanca.

1043
01:12:52,480 --> 01:12:58,860
Chas:
Yes okay i just checked have you seen oklahoma uh i have performed in oklahoma

1044
01:12:58,860 --> 01:13:02,040
Chas:
who were you i was a dancer oh okay,

1045
01:13:02,970 --> 01:13:07,310
Chas:
I can't sing, so I didn't get to any of the no-name roles for me.

1046
01:13:07,310 --> 01:13:10,390
Mel:
I was shocked by this. Yeah, okay.

1047
01:13:10,670 --> 01:13:15,450
Chas:
Well, I tell a lie. I was not in Oklahoma. I was in a high school Western musical

1048
01:13:15,450 --> 01:13:20,550
Chas:
medley, which started with Oklahoma and had Annie Get Your Gun and Seven Brides for Seven.

1049
01:13:20,550 --> 01:13:22,810
Mel:
Oh, God, they really picked the bad ones.

1050
01:13:23,150 --> 01:13:25,450
Chas:
And then I can't even remember what the fourth one was.

1051
01:13:25,690 --> 01:13:29,290
Mel:
If you were dancing, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is mostly about dance and

1052
01:13:29,290 --> 01:13:32,630
Mel:
color. It's not about anything else. So, you know, being a dancer is probably good.

1053
01:13:33,030 --> 01:13:39,310
Chas:
Okay, so I have seen Casablanca, and I'm aware of the story of Oklahoma.

1054
01:13:39,550 --> 01:13:39,810
Mel:
Right.

1055
01:13:39,950 --> 01:13:42,070
Chas:
And some of the songs, not all of them.

1056
01:13:42,490 --> 01:13:45,270
Mel:
Because I'm wondering what someone would come into this completely cold,

1057
01:13:45,350 --> 01:13:48,850
Mel:
knowing nothing about any of those, having not seen, like, there's other pop

1058
01:13:48,850 --> 01:13:51,390
Mel:
culture references, but seeing the main two things they revolve around.

1059
01:13:51,390 --> 01:13:55,150
Mel:
And I do think that there's an edge to, we know who Rodgers is at Hammerstein,

1060
01:13:55,250 --> 01:13:59,650
Mel:
and therefore we know what he, quote unquote, missed out on in terms of like,

1061
01:13:59,830 --> 01:14:03,950
Mel:
oh, globally famous, you know, still have things that are performed to this day, et cetera.

1062
01:14:04,490 --> 01:14:08,650
Mel:
Obviously, there's the music that he headlines, but I think there's an immediate,

1063
01:14:09,530 --> 01:14:13,590
Mel:
touchstone for most people of going, oh, okay, I understand the main stakes

1064
01:14:13,590 --> 01:14:15,230
Mel:
of this, even if I don't know who he is.

1065
01:14:15,550 --> 01:14:19,290
Chas:
Well, I think the script does a very good job. You mentioned about like how

1066
01:14:19,290 --> 01:14:23,390
Chas:
much heavy lifting it does early on, Even though it is about the characters,

1067
01:14:23,650 --> 01:14:30,070
Chas:
like, you know, first of all, you get the radio announcer telling us who Hart was as he dies, right?

1068
01:14:30,170 --> 01:14:34,630
Chas:
And then you've got Hart coming in saying that is, I'm going to quote the actual

1069
01:14:34,630 --> 01:14:37,190
Chas:
line. It's got carrots of gold in there.

1070
01:14:38,510 --> 01:14:42,670
Chas:
I know two things with absolute certainty. It was a 14-carat hit and it was

1071
01:14:42,670 --> 01:14:44,490
Chas:
a 14-carat piece of shit.

1072
01:14:46,130 --> 01:14:47,250
Mel:
Rhyming. Rhyme schemes.

1073
01:14:47,250 --> 01:14:52,190
Chas:
And they're telling us so much in that.

1074
01:14:52,900 --> 01:14:56,040
Chas:
In in that opening even though without it ever feeling like exposition

1075
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,400
Chas:
because it is true to hart's experience

1076
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:02,720
Chas:
although as you've accurately pointed out they do have or

1077
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,780
Chas:
audience surrogate characters in there

1078
01:15:05,780 --> 01:15:08,760
Chas:
so yeah i

1079
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:12,300
Chas:
mean i i i don't want to demean my wife's

1080
01:15:12,300 --> 01:15:15,240
Chas:
cinema knowledge i believe she's seen castle blanket i'm not sure how

1081
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:22,020
Chas:
aware she is of oscar and of sorry of hammerstein and rogers but i she did not

1082
01:15:22,020 --> 01:15:28,960
Chas:
enjoy the film very much and i suspect that was to do with the elizabeth interaction

1083
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:32,940
Chas:
as well interesting but i i don't know i.

1084
01:15:32,940 --> 01:15:35,640
Mel:
Can see that it is a very very,

1085
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:41,780
Mel:
man of a certain age rights interaction of man of a certain age with a young

1086
01:15:41,780 --> 01:15:46,820
Mel:
woman gen genuine like sexuality aside it is it there are parts that are very

1087
01:15:46,820 --> 01:15:50,540
Mel:
much that that i don't think that that is the weakest part for me.

1088
01:15:50,540 --> 01:15:55,340
Chas:
I mean she never felt unsafe no no no no no no no that's.

1089
01:15:55,340 --> 01:16:02,400
Mel:
That's yeah but it yeah the the desperation does drip a bit.

1090
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:07,000
Chas:
Yeah well thank you mel for making this happen and for choosing the homework this.

1091
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:12,340
Mel:
Is one where i had seen all of the movies for adapted or for original screenplay

1092
01:16:12,340 --> 01:16:15,720
Mel:
which was a lot of fun then because then i essentially got I mean,

1093
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:20,200
Mel:
I really only got to choose from three because I couldn't find the other ones in English.

1094
01:16:20,420 --> 01:16:24,760
Chas:
Thanks, as always, also to our amazing Patreons who bring you more Draft Zero

1095
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:27,720
Chas:
more often, and particularly our top-tier Patreons.

1096
01:16:28,100 --> 01:16:34,200
Chas:
Krob, Thees, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paolo, Thomas, Jen, Millay,

1097
01:16:34,940 --> 01:16:38,520
Chas:
Lily, and Alexandra, who...

1098
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:43,880
Chas:
Is Oscar nominated for his short film. This is going to date very quickly,

1099
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:45,160
Chas:
so hopefully we'll get it out in time.

1100
01:16:45,300 --> 01:16:50,960
Chas:
If you are an Academy Award winner, please vote for Alexandra's film.

1101
01:16:51,140 --> 01:16:55,380
Mel:
Maybe we should record two versions, Academy Award nominee versus Academy Award winner.

1102
01:16:56,480 --> 01:17:02,500
Chas:
I'm also obliged to mention Alexandra's partner, Natalie Musatiatas,

1103
01:17:02,740 --> 01:17:09,480
Chas:
as I believe, is a listener, and their film is Two People Exchanging Saliva. Oscar nominated.

1104
01:17:09,820 --> 01:17:14,080
Chas:
And recording here for posterity, there's no way I'm going to go back and edit

1105
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:17,200
Chas:
this, but let's presume that I am motivated enough to go back and edit this.

1106
01:17:17,700 --> 01:17:21,840
Chas:
Academy Award winning listener, Alexandra and Natalie.

1107
01:17:26,020 --> 01:17:29,880
FX:
I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on

1108
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:31,500
FX:
this episode or anything in general.

1109
01:17:31,660 --> 01:17:38,300
FX:
And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com.

1110
01:17:38,460 --> 01:17:42,660
FX:
At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes.

1111
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:48,160
FX:
As well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and

1112
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:51,200
FX:
review on Apple Podcasts. Very important for spreading the word.

1113
01:17:51,420 --> 01:17:56,280
FX:
Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than

1114
01:17:56,280 --> 01:18:02,000
FX:
a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting

1115
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:03,860
FX:
these episodes to you quicker.

1116
01:18:04,180 --> 01:18:09,900
FX:
Thanks. And thanks for listening. And now for Backmatter.