Joseph Cottle (00:05):
You are listening to the church production podcast from church production.com. I'm your host Joseph Coddle, and today we're with Will Chapman, the online minister at Cottonwood Creek Church in Allen, Texas. We talk about how a VL infrastructure is switching to a VL over IP and how churches of all sizes can educate themselves and start making the switch away from analog infrastructure. We also get into the merits of Kansas City versus Texas Barbecue, which is always a heated debate. Now we were both getting over colds when we recorded this, so I sound a little stuffy and you might hear a sniffle here or there that I missed during the edit. Please bear with us now. Let's dive in with Will Chapman. Alright, will, thanks for joining us today. I'm excited to get to talk to you. I think, and maybe you don't remember, I don't expect you to or anything, but I think the last time we talked I was actually at your church for the church production conference and yeah,
Will Chapman (01:11):
That's right.
Joseph Cottle (01:12):
So it's been a minute. How are you?
Will Chapman (01:14):
I'm doing, I'm doing very well since we saw each other last. I had my oldest son get married, and so I am now transitioning from that parent of college students to, I've got a new daughter in law that I realize now why some people call him daughter in loves because my wife and I are just absolutely in love with our new daughter-in-law. She is everything that we have prayed for and a wife for our son ever since before he was born. And to see God bring about a prayer request of over 23 years and to provide it more than we could ever hope or imagine as it talks about in Philippians with that exceedingly abundantly, that we are just in awe of this blessing and so thankful that the legacy of faith started with my wife's grandparents and with my grandparents and parents that continuing that legacy to a new generation. And so we're so thankful for that.
Joseph Cottle (02:31):
Well, good for them and good for you. Glad to hear that things are going well. Let's talk a little bit about you for people in the audience that aren't familiar. You are the online minister, correct? At Cottonwood Creek Church?
Will Chapman (02:49):
Yes, that's my title right now.
Joseph Cottle (02:51):
Yeah.
Will Chapman (02:53):
And the reason that I say that is that the Lord for some reason decided that he wanted me to start the media ministry here at Cottonwood Creek 20 years ago with an intern and five really committed volunteers. And over the course of 20 years, the Lord has allowed me to be able to train up and build up people, train him how to be able to do it, hand it off a part of the media ministry to them and then move on to a different part and to be able to do that. And so now my title is online minister, but I'm more like in, I guess you can say in technical or in the greater media role that people understand beyond just churches is that I'm like a executive producer and I'm also like a station manager is I make sure that we're getting our content out to people in different broadcasting outlets where they can interact with them.
(03:57):
And then I interact with those people. We've got a front line of people who will interact with them on social media and things like that. And then if something crosses over a little more into the doctrinal or into something that goes beyond deeper than informational, I'll interact with them and help them that way. And then I also use our online ad partners that we use to be able to follow up with people who answer our online ads that are need-based kind of like with depression, divorce, relationship issues. And they'll see one of the online campaigns that we're a part of and then they'll respond to that and then I'll help them as a frontline minister to pray for them, but also direct them to a ministry in our church to get involved, to be able to have their, not only their felt need minister to, but also their spiritual needs minister to. So that's kind of what I do here at the church. 20
Joseph Cottle (05:00):
Years is a long time to be on church staff, especially, how do I say this, maybe third or fourth tier staff, not lead pastor through not executive pastor. I don't know if maybe you're a second tier there. Everybody's org chart's a little bit different, but
Will Chapman (05:20):
That's impressive.
Joseph Cottle (05:21):
20 years is a long time.
Will Chapman (05:22):
I'm like, I'm the jack of all trades, master of none, and people don't understand a lot how to deal with me. I have so many different personalities, not that I'm on medication for any of those personalities. I'm
Joseph Cottle (05:37):
Not those kind of personalities.
Will Chapman (05:38):
Not those personalities. But my wife describes me and she always makes me embarrassed when she describes this about me, but she calls me a renaissance man and the first thing I think of is, okay, she sees me as a guy going around in a tutu and tights and in high tops, whatever. But no, it's more like that. She describes it kind of like a classical type thing where science, where art, where mathematics, where creativity is all part of what is considered a healthy skillset and education. And I've got aspects of all of those things. I'm a musician. I'm also seminary trained. I have a master's divinity with biblical languages, also have a IT degree. I also have, I'm also a weekend barbecue smoker. And so I'm not talking smoked meats.
Joseph Cottle (06:39):
What's respectable middle-aged man?
Will Chapman (06:43):
Well, here's the key that every respectable middle aged man has discovered is that when the kids move away, they like having a reason to come back home. And sometimes mom's hugs and mom dotting on them is not enough. And when they find out that dad is smoking up a big brisket or smoking up a big thing of ribs or something like that, the kids are willing to be able to come home and stay for some good Texas barbecues. So that's why I got into it. I had other friends tell me, you need to do it to bring your kids back. And I had, what do you mean? And now that I took 'em at their word, I understand why.
Joseph Cottle (07:23):
Okay, this is a little bit off topic, but I think it's still very important for our audience. I'm from Kansas City and brisket is a big deal up here, but I know it's a little different down in Texas. And in fact, I saw a great little 10 minute doc about the guy down there in Austin, I can't remember his name. He's like the big famous Texas brisket man.
Will Chapman (07:46):
Yeah, the guy who owns Franklin Barbecue.
Joseph Cottle (07:49):
Yes, that guy. And he was like Aaron Franklin
Will Chapman (07:52):
I think
Joseph Cottle (07:52):
Something like that. Yeah, yeah. He's like, this is how I trim a brisket. And then he gets to the part where he's like, so in Kansas City they would keep these on the brisket and they would turn 'em into burnt ends, but I'm not going to do that. And he literally just cut 'em off and threw 'em away. Will please tell me you don't throw away what will become the burnt ends?
Will Chapman (08:14):
No, we don't do that. In fact, what a lot of people do in Texas is instead of making burnt ends, they'll actually take that and they've got at home a meat grinder. And so anything that they trim off, they'll basically make their own ground beef at home. And I've had some people who have used their brisket trimmings or some trimmings they may do if they're really trimming up like a pecan or another part of the sirloin roast, like the tri tip, the pecan or some people call it the ot. And instead of throwing that away, they keep it until have enough and then they make their own ground beef and hamburger meat and taco meat out of it. And so it's really cool. But I want to let you know Joseph, that after Texas style barbecue, Kansas City is my next favorite. I like Texas's use of chili powder and chili peppers and the way that they do barbecue. But I tell you what, Kansas City style with the way that they really get into that black pepper and putting some of that sweetness in with that black pepper, I just love that Kansas City style of that too.
Joseph Cottle (09:26):
Well I tell you what, when next time you're up in Kansas City, I don't know how often you get up here, please let me know and I got to take you to slaps. Everybody talks about Q 39 and Joe's and a couple other places and of course the old school places like LCS and Gates and all that. But the best spot in my personal hot take, very opinionated opinion, is slaps. It's this little cement shack on the other side of the Kansas River in Kansas City, Kansas right across from Casey Mo. And their brisket sandwich is one of the best things I've ever eaten in my whole life and I'll die on that hill. Okay, so let's talk about av, and this is something that we just really got into here at Life Mission. We recently just this summer added a Dante network to our main room, our worship center here, and over time we plan to expand that across the campus and we just added on, so we're going to put it over there too. But I know you're one of the guys where you've really embraced this and if I'm being honest, this is all very new to me, which I think is good for our listeners because we're all going to be learning together. So let's talk about that. What are some of the basics of audio and visual over, well, I don't want to say it, but really over IP if you will. Yeah. What are some of the basics that we need to know if we're thinking about adding a Dante network or something like that?
Will Chapman (11:04):
Something that people need to realize, and I talk about this in the conferences and the workshops and things that I do regarding AV over IP technologies, and I recently talked about this at the SALT conference and some people looked at me differently when I said this is that I believe every church technical leader needs to know about it, but it's not for every single location or every single church. And the reason that I say that is that there are some specific things about the intersection of a VL and the IP or internet protocol or things over ethernet or fiber that you have to understand if you're going to get into. And so one is to just let people know is that there's still always going to be copper around and you're going to be able to have that some way somehow. But if you are looking at things and problems and needing some solutions that a IP type protocol can help, it's important to really know the basics of network structure and how to be able to set up that network before you even put any kind of AVL on it.
Joseph Cottle (12:29):
Where is somewhere that newbies like myself can go to start to learn the basics of networking?
Will Chapman (12:36):
Well, this is something that I've been really surprised about here recently and a couple of really good friends of mine that are integrators and dealers and are have done even here recently, some of the top largest installs in the United States, one of them just finished a install not too long ago of redoing the whole entire audio system at Indianapolis Motor Speedway and they're also in the middle of redoing the entire A VL systems at Fremont Street in Vegas. What they have told me is that for somebody who is new to this a VL over ip, some of the best things that they can do is one, start with Dante, but to not be afraid to jump in and look at getting a Dante level one certification. And this is something that I've been seeing more and more and I have been so impressed with ate and what they're doing with this is that they're making this technology of Dante available and people are licensing it all over the place. Now you can get it in prosumer gear, you can get it in the top professional and professional gear, but automate just doesn't stop there. They've got right now I think three different levels
(14:07):
Of certification that you can go through and it is meant to be something that builds one on top of the other and it's a easy accessible certification. It teaches you some basics of IP protocol with AVL stuff about the importance of having a proper network set up. And then it begins to get further, further in on how to set up complex networks, VLANs and sub lands and different things like that. But really everybody can go and get that level one and get a really good idea. And in fact, that's something that my friends have challenged with over the Christmas break when I'm out a little bit visiting family is to see if I can at least get my level one done because so I can find out more about what the experience is like because they really believe in it and all their new hires that they have, that's one of the things that they want 'em all to go through.
(15:11):
And then on the broader networking side, if you're looking at things with doing some of the lighting protocols that are IP based and even some of the video protocols that are IP based, netgear's new a VL brand of our line of ports and routers and switches, they've got a certification system that is set up now that take you through the basics of using higher bandwidth IP protocols, not only how to set up those networks and stuff using Netgear a VL certified gear, but that what you're learning is really applied to any manufacturer with how you're setting things up and how you're learning. Very similar to when we were first learning about digital audio, you may have first learned about digital audio maybe on a SOUNDCRAFT board or on a Mackey or some Yamaha combo thing. And once you learn the principles, everybody does it a little bit differently within the software, but the principles are the same. And that's kind of what I've been learning about and that's another challenge that my friends have given me is to see if I can get my level one Netgear AVL certification done over the break too. So I'm going to see if I can get 'em both knocked out.
Joseph Cottle (16:34):
I bet you're going to do it pretty easily. So I'm actually level one Dante certified and for those who just to kind of, not decode but just clarify a couple of things you're saying. So ATE for listeners, ATE is the company that owns Dante. For those of you who don't know, they're the creators of Dante networks and the training is completely free. You just log onto ate, set up an account, and levels 1, 2, 3 are right there and he's 100% correct. It's very informative. I used to be very afraid of IP and networking and all that, but the level one Dante training really helps clarify a lot of what that is. Now I will say you're going to want to back it up with actually playing around with Dante when you have it. Don't just get the level one certification and then not do it, which is what I did.
(17:27):
Now we're getting into a couple services and some events where I've had to kind of mess around with Dante on my own and I'm like, oh man, I don't really remember what I studied. And so you got to back it up with some practical stuff, so make sure you're hopping in there. I'm really excited to hear that Netgear's doing that. We actually have one of their switchers or one of their network switches that are designed specifically for av. That's why we're running Dante. So I'm definitely going to hop on and learn some of that because this is the direction it's going. It started with basically an audio snake over CAT five in the last 10, 15 years, but now it's everything is going IP and Dante is bringing in the video side. Is there anything you'd like to say about that? Do you guys use a video over Dante there at Cottonwood Creek or what are you doing there?
Will Chapman (18:20):
No, we don't use video with Dante here at Cottonwood Creek we use Dante audio and then we use the, I forgot the full acronym, it's the as something or other lighting protocol that's the lighting control over ip. And then we use, we are using ST 2110 natively here and ST 2110 is basically the uncompressed video standard that the STI organization said this is going to be the IP protocol for video where bandwidth and network management is not going to be something we're concerned with. We're going to be more concerned with quality and how good does the video look? How does it sound when it's all
(19:16):
The audio and video are combined into that? And so that's where we are in SD 2110 for video and we have switchers and things that all use SD 2110 and we still do some native SDI stuff that we're capturing and putting into our video server, and that's just because we couldn't afford going SD 2110 all in the first round. But the great thing about SD 2110, and if you have a switcher or routers that do SD 2110, it's going back kind of the old school of about 20, 30 years ago when I first started in professional video of where you would have these big huge RACKMOUNTED devices in that you would have these cards that would fit in and you would put in eight channels of coaxial video and that's how you could get it into a digital video switcher and then it would spit it back out analog coaxial on an output card.
(20:17):
And so now instead of those cards being analog or SDI and converting it to a different protocol and be able to come out, now it's coming in SD 2110 natively and then it allows you to be able to have the networking features of the IP protocol and be able to manage video that way without it being in this very simple SDI box video over IP and especially s ST 2110 has literally put a stick of dynamite on my nice little perfect little SDI box and blown it to bits. And so this has been a big transformation for me going back to all my days in analog audio analog video, the old original DMX 2 56, not the five 12, but the DMX 2 56 that originally came out back in the eighties and stuff. And so I'm having to relearn some of these things, but it's really exciting for me because what it does for churches and ministries of all different sizes is that you have at so many different price points options and that's something that the church market hasn't ever really had is that they used to be segmented into this one area is that okay, this is all that churches can afford is just this technology.
(21:51):
But nowadays with global manufacturers understanding the importance of the house and worship market, they are manufacturing, leading and even bleeding edge technologies and make 'em available at different, what I call stair-step points that a ministry or that a church could get into. So I think it's just a really excited time with AV L over IP and how many flexibility that gives ministries of all different sizes and budgets and to be able to have flexibility in choosing your technology that is not only best for your budget but is best for the solutions that you need to be able to solve the problems that you have
Joseph Cottle (22:38):
100%. Talk to us a little bit about maybe the advantages specifically of AV over IP as opposed to sticking with copper and analog technologies.
Will Chapman (22:51):
The way that I can kind of describe it, and I describe this in my SD 2110 seminar that I did at SALT this past fall, but it's very similar to the video over IP revolution is very similar to the audio over IP revolution back in the late nineties. For those of you who may remember the first digital console that totally blew away everybody in 1999 when Yamaha came out with the PM 1D, beautiful absolute console, 96 channels of digital audio and its capabilities just blew people away. And you had to begin thinking about moving audio around, not from a one-to-one standpoint of you plug this input into this area and then this input goes to this channel and it's all controlled that way. You had to think about it from the standpoint of, I'm bringing this in here, but I can make it go anywhere, anywhere I want it to go.
(23:58):
And so the advantage is tremendous flexibility on the video side, very similar to the audio side is that now with video switchers, you can set up scenes for the inputs that you want somebody to be able to have access to. You can have tons of video inputs with video over ip, but on your switcher you can have pages and scenes or snapshots set up very similar like a digital audio console. And so what it does, just like we've been able to do with our volunteers in ministries with digital audio, you can actually set up a volunteer to be able to have success with what they're capable of doing and not give them access to every single thing that's on the console. You can do that now with video and you can even do it back here with the switchers. We, we don't have the board tape with written in all the inputs and whatever. We've got these little LED screens and we program what input goes there and work with it in the software. And so if you think about how software has changed digital audio, it's the same thing. Now with digital video, you don't even need a switcher anymore.
(25:13):
If you need to do things with digital video, you can actually do it with a computer and do it all. I'm thinking of things like vMix, that is a tremendous software that is very popular on Windows computers and you basically use black magic deck link cards or whatever else, pull that in and you are doing some amazing video switching on that. And so that type of flexibility, that type of routing, like across campus, you used to have to route all this tons of copper and sometimes you'd have to fight and install, please, a church board, please give me a six inch conduit to be able to run all this copper in.
Joseph Cottle (25:58):
Right?
Will Chapman (25:58):
No, you're going to have to figure out how to do it in three inch conduit and you're thinking, I literally can't do anything with three inch conduit if something goes wrong. How in the world are we going to be able to pull out all this copper out this conduit? Well, now with the way that fiber is working with it all, you can send multiple, multiple video feeds in 4K 60 frame quality, multiple, multiple, multiple audio channels all over one fiber cable. It allows you to be able to move that to a place and then you can branch it out whatever you need to. So it solves installation issues. And then a cool feature that we're beginning to get into more and more is being able to set up some of our venues using the Q sys software and hardware where it is very similar to what you see in a lot of the bigger hotels and convention centers where you come in and you can run lights, you can run simple video switching and you can run audio basically off of a touch panel
(27:01):
And you can set it up to where a different room has access to be able to do different things. And so what we're getting to is we're taking out audio consoles now little by little in some of our other venues and simplifying it even more for volunteers to be able to control things over a touch panel. And it has caused our volunteer and our ministries within the church to have a higher level of satisfaction that one, that their technology is going to work, but then also they can come in and they can be able to operate it without having to get with us to schedule somebody to be there or any of that kind of stuff. So the amount of flexibility and the amount of applications and things that you can do is really something that blows you away because that's what I'm talking about, about taking your little SDI video box and just blowing it to smithereens. You have to think more of it like how you get internet to all the different places that you need to in the church. And that's how it is now with audio, video and lighting protocols.
Joseph Cottle (28:05):
Essentially what you're talking about overall, it's going to bring down the price point of video for churches. I mean foot for foot ethernet is cheaper than SDI, especially 12 G-S-D-I-A network switch is cheaper than a video switcher. And there's programs out there that will switch video for you over. We will take in IP video, video over ip, I should say like OBS and it's free OBS is completely free used by streamers all over the world. We were using it at one of our campuses briefly for a little bit. So instead of having to throw all this money at broadcast level, pretty expensive hardware, even though black Magic is already on the leading edge of bringing those price points down, we all love black magic. It's going to come. I mean really it's getting, I would say Black Magic brought everything down to a third of its price that you're going to pay for comparable professional broadcasting. Well, it's getting brought down to a third of that price again and maybe even less. Does that sound about right to
Will Chapman (29:20):
You? Yeah, and that's where I like about what Black Magic is doing. I did an article in a church production not too long ago on Black Magic's Big Splash they made at NAB this year and how they have fully grabbed hold of the video over IP protocol and the way that they're making ST 2110 more available to the masses is that they have added a compression protocol to that that allows it to be ST 2110, but within a black magic type of wrapper to where you don't have to totally invest in a 200 gig switcher core to be able to move this around that you can literally move it around on CAT six with black magics ethernet router. And so that's where manufacturers like Blackmagic and even the NDI protocol, that's something that we cannot forget as well. NDI is made available so easily nowadays and it's on everything and available on everything.
(30:38):
And you don't even have to be and use Black Magic's SD 2110 protocol if you don't want to. You could use NDI and NDI is another fantastic protocol, but with all of these things, what you have to realize is police, and I'm begging everybody right now with my hands put together. Please, please, please, please do not think that you can put audio over IP lighting control over IP or video over IP on your existing internal church network and it'll work for you. Please don't think that that will work because I made that mistake a couple of years ago and I thought that it was a video over IP or an audio over IP protocol. No, it wasn't. It was my problem because I did not do my homework in realizing how our internal network was set up through our managed service provider. And once I found out more about that and their needs, I found out that a regular type of IT environment is not what a VL over IP needs.
Joseph Cottle (31:56):
Dive into that a little bit more just to maybe help people understand. I know there's some of that. What goes into it is just the sheer amount of data that you have to throw over. Not so much audio, but especially a video network, a video over IP network. You're throwing a wild amount of data 2, 3, 4 times the amount of data that you're throwing for audio. And so your regular internet network can't really handle that sort of bandwidth necessarily. So give us a few points about why they should be separate.
Will Chapman (32:32):
Right, and the reason why it should be separate is that what happens on a lot of our internal church networks, the different access points and the different switches that are routing that ethernet and those IP signals all over our buildings will have to some degree different bandwidth limitations. Some of it is in the cabling, a lot of the cabling that our churches have is still cat five and it can only do a hundred megabits. And when you take internet traffic and printer traffic and you may have some security camera traffic and you may have your voiceover IP for your telephone system running on that as well, all of a sudden you don't have enough bandwidth to be able to add professional video over IP even using NDI or some of the lower codex within NDI.
(33:33):
And that's a limiting factor. Another limiting factor is your switches or your cores and sometimes your firewall rules that people will have in place about how much data can flow through certain ports. Because what that does is they don't want somebody who is trying to secretly watch a Netflix movie somewhere in the church, which is always a staff kid or a deacon's kid. It is my kids. It's our kids, okay, they're trying to watch the latest Avengers movie or something like Spider-Man or something like that. And they're trying to take up all this bandwidth. And what some of those switch rules or firewalls will do is say, no, you can't watch HD video coming through this axis point, whether it's wireless or whether it's hardwired. And so it'll limit your bandwidth of what you can do because you still got to share it with the rest of the building.
(34:31):
And that's where when you're looking at any kind of AV L over IP protocol is that my opinion and my learned opinion is having your own, what we call dark network that is kind of like a secret network just for a VL purposes is something that's very wise to be able to put in your building and it's very wise for your media ministry to be able to manage because if you have a church volunteer or if you have a church managed service provider that you contract with, be able to help you manage your network, guess what happens when you show up on 6:00 AM on Sunday morning and you see that there's some network issues, do you think that person is going to be in a hurry to come up there and help you? No. And so that's where I talk with people knowing that if you're going to get into this, know that you've got to have somebody on your team or you yourself are going to have to learn how to not only set it up and operate it but also manage it.
(35:35):
Especially when at those times when we have rehearsals and when we have call times and things on the weekends. And so that's where I say that video over IP isn't for everybody, but it gives people an option to be able to look at that they've never had before. So the first thing is just really make sure you do your homework and looking at the infrastructure that you need for your video over IP before you start buying the product. Because when we started implementing SD 2110 and Dante and everything here, the first thing that we did for about a year and a half is we started upgrading all the parts of our dark A VL network that we had at that time, and we got it to the point where we could start handling that type of bandwidth. I mean, for example, on Sunday morning with all of our Dante traffic that we're doing just for the worship service including control protocol for, I think we're running nine different universes for lighting control. And then with all of our ST 2110 things that we're doing, we're moving now I believe over 12 terabytes of data on our A VL network in a four hour timeframe. Okay. Wow. And that kind of data flow is not something that a business oriented MSP is going to know how to do and how to manage. They're not used to that type of deal unless they're in a very large company and move it around a whole bunch of data.
Joseph Cottle (37:11):
You will brick your network if you try to,
Will Chapman (37:13):
You'll brick your internal network if you're trying to put ST 2110 and all that. And that's why the real important part before you do anything with AV L over IP is do your homework on what kind of network, what kind of bandwidth you're going to need. And you're going to have to figure out what kind of protocol are we going to do? What part of the protocol in Dante are we going to use? What are we going to capture it at? Where are we going to move it around at which protocol on lighting are we going to use? Which protocol in a video over ip? Are we going to use NDI one of the lower? Are we going to do one of the higher qualities of the HX quality? Are we going to do SD 2110 and remember that the large amount of data is yes, it sounds large and there are churches very close to us that are move around even more data than we are on a Sunday morning, but the principles are all the same.
(38:12):
That's the thing is that if you can learn how to manage, just like when you're teaching somebody how to do audio, you don't teach 'em how to run a whole entire audio console from the standpoint you just teach 'em how to manage one channel and you help them learn all the things in that one channel. And then once they learn that one channel, then it's just scalability. And that's why with these tip protocols, and I really compliment you Joseph, and what you and your church are doing, starting with Dante is an excellent way to be able to step in to the AV L over IP protocol because you're learning things right now that are setting you up for success when you move to lighting control. And eventually, if it is a good solution for you and your church to be able to move to video over ip. So
Joseph Cottle (39:00):
I think we well think in the long run is get to video over IP because we have a lot of video here. We don't do a ton with lighting. I don't have an ld. Even my production tech, it was on staff. He's just really learning lighting. I know very minimal about setting up a light show. And we don't do a real really do light shows on Sunday morning. It's just not our vibe. We're a lot more like upper room in that way where it's just our stages lit and that's what we're doing. So that's kind of it. But we do a lot of stuff with video and whether that's broadcast on Sunday morning or if that's taking what we captured and okay, now we got to upload it and then our creative director has to edit it and all those things. We do a lot more with video, so I know I want to go that route in the long run. But anyway.
Will Chapman (39:53):
Well, what's cool about that, you're learning things that are going to help you when you need to move into the media asset manager software and away from just throwing things out on a network. And when you need to move to an actual digital asset management, you're setting yourself up for that in these different steps. That's why in what I teach a lot of people is don't be concerned about the huge amount of bandwidth or things that you hear look at and start where you can and know the rest of it is those principles applied on a larger scale.
Joseph Cottle (40:30):
Well, this has been such a great conversation. I feel like we could talk a lot more about this, but I feel like we've really kind of gave people a good little overview about how to get involved with AV over ip. So thanks so much again for joining us. Such a great time to chat with you. And again, you come up to Kansas City, I'm going to get you on some barbecue, I'm going to get you on some Mexican, and please tell me you drink coffee. Are you one of those weird production directors that doesn't drink coffee?
Will Chapman (40:58):
I am, but I have my coffee. I know, I really tried. In college, I really tried. And when I was in college, when I was trying to develop a taste for coffee, it kept tasting like something that I absolutely hated during my sports playing days in baseball, I was a head first slider because back then they didn't have these sliding rules that they have nowadays for kids.
Joseph Cottle (41:25):
Baseball was for men. Yeah.
Will Chapman (41:27):
Yes. When baseball was for men and they didn't care if somebody stepped on your hand and you started bleeding, that was your own fault because you didn't slide. And so you learn very quickly when you were learning to become a headfirst slider as a kid, is that you don't slide headfirst into second with your mouth open. And that's what I started doing when I was a kid. And that same taste tasted
Joseph Cottle (41:53):
Like coffee. That's a coffee taste like to you,
Will Chapman (41:55):
To me. And so it was a weird thing, but I love Mountain Dew. Mountain Dew is my forest.
Joseph Cottle (42:04):
That's a hot take.
Will Chapman (42:06):
It is. And of course Dr. Pepper after Mountain Dew, but then I also have my energy drink that doesn't give me the shakes. A lot of the energy drinks give me the shakes. Oh yeah. What is it? But Celsius, the S
Joseph Cottle (42:20):
Celsius, yes.
Will Chapman (42:21):
Doesn't, with the shakes I do
Joseph Cottle (42:23):
Doesn't weird me out. I love Celsius.
Will Chapman (42:25):
Yeah. Early mornings, Sundays, early morning call times I'll have a Celsius drink.
Joseph Cottle (42:30):
Yes sir.
Will Chapman (42:30):
And then if it's an all day thing after starting the day with Celsius, I'll end it with Mountain Dew.
Joseph Cottle (42:35):
Celsius is not a sponsor of the church production podcast, but we do love it. Anyway. Okay. Well this has been really great. Thank you so much man. And we'll talk to you later.
Will Chapman (42:45):
Alright, sounds good. See you soon. And don't forget, man, you need to become a part of the Metro Media Ministers Association.
Joseph Cottle (42:52):
Will do. I'm going to look into that here. Alright, thanks Will. Thanks again for listening to the church production podcast from church production.com. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast, our email list and our YouTube channel, as well as follow us on Instagram for everything church production.