SPARKS BY IGNIUM — EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Guest: Sharon Spano | Executive Coach, Author of The Pursuit of Time and Money, PhD Topic: The Pursuit of Time and Money — Breaking Free from the Emptiness of Success Host: Phil Rose ======================================================================== ======================================================================== CHAPTER MARKERS ======================================================================== Use these timestamps to navigate the episode in Transistor, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts. 00:00 Welcome & Introduction — Dr Sharon Spano, Executive Coach and Author 00:57 What Is the Pursuit of Time and Money? — Why Sharon Wrote the Book 01:41 The Research — Leaders with Too Much Time or Too Much Money, Never Both 03:04 The Scarcity-Abundance Spectrum — Why Moderate Versions Look Almost Identical 04:24 Fear-Based Decisions Are Not Really Decisions — The Retirement Saving Trap 05:35 Entrepreneurs vs Corporate Leaders — How Development Stage Shapes Abundance 06:16 The Achiever Stage — Why Entrepreneurs Chase Goals, Time and Money 09:05 The 12 Stages of Human Development — A Framework for Growth 15:45 Construct Aware — The 5% Who See the World Differently 16:18 The Leaders Edge Quiz — Finding Your Centre of Gravity 19:30 When You Feel Stuck, You Are Leaning Into a Later Stage 20:40 Transitions Are Exciting — Why Shedding the Old Self Is Growth, Not Failure 21:02 The Emptiness of Success — High Achievers Who Have It All But Feel Empty 23:40 Purpose Above and Beyond Making Money — The Deeper Question 24:48 Imposter Syndrome and the Pressure to Be Enough in Today's World 27:44 We Will Never Get It Done — Accepting the Infinite To-Do List 29:20 I Am Enough, I Did Enough — The Daily Conscious Choice 30:24 The Visionary Entrepreneur's Words Cast Spells — Impact on the Team 36:23 Time Is Finite — The Six-Week Road Trip That Changed Everything 40:22 Time Integration, Not Work-Life Balance — Being Present Where You Are 41:25 Integrating Personal and Professional Life Through Crisis 43:12 The Discipline of Presence — Settle Down in Your Cage 45:45 Radical Abundance — Feeling Secure That There Is Enough 46:27 Costa Rica and the Lesson of Joyful Poverty 51:40 Old Beliefs About Time and Money — What Did You Learn From Your Parents? 53:06 Rich People Are Bad People — Overcoming Childhood Money Myths 54:55 A Spiritual Journey — Redefining Wealth as a Force for Good 56:50 The Love of Money vs Money Itself — Correcting the Root of All Evil Myth 01:00:55 How the Loss of Her Son Deepened Sharon's Purpose 01:02:18 Moving from Achiever to Construct Aware Through Grief 01:04:04 My Purpose Is His Legacy — Kairos Adventures and 125 People a Week 01:08:19 The Loneliness of Later Stages — When Others Don't Get What You're Saying 01:09:39 Developmental Shifts — You Cannot Skip a Stage 01:11:33 Advice to Younger Sharon — You Are Enough 01:12:47 Reclaiming Presence, Purpose and Peace — Practical First Steps 01:14:23 The Age of Knowledge — Finding the Right Coach for Where You Are 00:01.902 Phil's Close — Enough, Abundance and Your Start-Stop-Continue Challenge ======================================================================== KEY MOMENTS — EPISODE SUMMARY ======================================================================== A curated summary of the most important insights from this conversation. The Research Behind the Book — Leaders With Time But No Money, or Money But No Time (01:41) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon Spano's book The Pursuit of Time and Money grew directly from her doctoral research in human development. She noticed a consistent pattern in her clients: they had either a lot of time and not enough money, or a lot of money from working hard but no time at all. She couldn't find research that looked at time and money together, despite the fact that most people make dozens of decisions every single day based on whether they have enough of each. That gap led her to study how leaders experience time and money through the lens of their developmental stage — and the findings were both surprising and practically useful for anyone running a business or building a career. The Scarcity-Abundance Spectrum — Why Moderate Versions Look Almost the Same (03:04) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ One of the most counterintuitive findings from Sharon's research is that moderate scarcity and moderate abundance produce almost identical outward behaviour — both groups plan for retirement, both behave responsibly. The difference lies in the emotional driver behind the decision. Moderate scarcity tends to produce fear-based decisions. Sharon describes a man in his forties who lived near Disney World but wouldn't take his children because he was saving for retirement. He was missing his life in the name of responsibility. Moderate abundance, by contrast, is driven by the belief that more can always be created. Sharon argues that fear-based decisions are barely decisions at all, since they are rooted in emotion rather than data or genuine choice. The Achiever Stage and the Entrepreneurial Trap — When More, More, More Costs Everyone (31:06) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon uses the framework of adult developmental stages to explain the entrepreneurial mindset around time and money. The achiever stage — where most entrepreneurs cluster — is characterised by goal-chasing, full calendars, constant activity, and the instinct to take on the next big idea. Sharon recalls telling her team they needed to do something 'right away' after a seminar, only to be stopped by her operations director who made her realise that her words were landing as immediate demands on a team already at capacity. This moment became pivotal: the entrepreneur's visionary energy, unfiltered, imposes invisible time and money pressure on the people around them. Phil Rose notes the same pattern — when you say 'right away', someone else hears it as a crisis. The Emptiness of Success — High Achievers Who Have Everything and Feel Nothing (21:27) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon describes a phenomenon she calls 'the emptiness of success', experienced by high achievers who have built the degrees, the business, the house and the life they imagined — and find it hollow. She argues this is not failure but a developmental signal: they have been in achiever mode their whole lives and are now leaning into a later stage, seeking deeper meaning. This is where her coaching work begins — helping leaders examine the family history, the stories and the myths that catapulted them to success and are now holding them back. Behind every high-performing leader, she finds a story from childhood: a parent who worked punishing hours, a message that success required sacrifice, a belief that has both driven them and kept them hostage. I Am Enough, I Did Enough — Making Peace With the Infinite To-Do List (29:20) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon's most current message to her clients is deceptively simple: accept that you will never finish the to-do list. The world in which you could write a list and complete it by end of day no longer exists. Her approach is to keep the daily priority list deliberately small — five things that must get done — then make a conscious decision at the end of the day to acknowledge that what was done was enough. She frames this as a daily act of intentionality: not passivity, but a principled choice to say 'I am enough' and 'I did enough today.' Phil Rose connects this to Dan Sullivan's concept of the not-to-do list and the idea that sufficiency, not perfectionism, is what sustainable high performance actually looks like. The Six-Week Road Trip — Time, Memory and the Things You Cannot Buy Back (37:39) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One of the most personally powerful moments in the episode comes when Sharon describes the decision she and her husband made to take their disabled son Michael on a six-week road trip across the United States, at a time when money was tight and the trip seemed impossible. Her husband's reasoning was simple: I'll never have this kind of time and he'll never be this age again. Sharon's son died in 2008 after four years of critical illness. During those years, the places and memories from his trips were what he spoke about. For Sharon, this is the definitive argument for time integration over time management: you cannot generate more memories retrospectively. The families of the executives who missed their children's childhoods building the empire cannot get those years back. Radical Abundance — Feeling Secure That There Is Enough, Regardless of Circumstances (45:45) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon defines radical abundance as the felt sense that there is enough, regardless of your material circumstances. The concept came to her in Costa Rica, where she encountered communities living in what she would recognise as poverty, yet who were visibly joyful, connected and at ease. Her instinct — conditioned by growing up in the inner cities of Los Angeles — was to associate poverty with danger. Instead, she found happy people, multi-generational families, and a simplicity of lifestyle her husband found so compelling he wanted to move there. Radical abundance is not about wealth. It is about the internal orientation that says: I can create what I need, I trust that more is possible, and I choose to live from that belief. Rich People Are Bad People — Overcoming Childhood Money Myths (53:06) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon describes growing up with a mother who believed that rich people were bad people — a belief rooted in a Catholic upbringing where wealth was associated with moral failure. As Sharon and her husband became successful, she found herself experiencing guilt and shame around their prosperity. Her mother's phrase 'it must be nice' became a recurring source of internal conflict. The shift came when Sharon reframed wealth as a vehicle for good: entrepreneurs and philanthropists fund the things that governments can't or won't. She also corrects the common misquotation of the biblical phrase — it is the love of money, not money itself, that is described as the root of all evil. This reframing, she argues, is a spiritual journey as much as a psychological one. Purpose Through Loss — How Michael's Life and Death Shaped Sharon's Work (01:04:04) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sharon shares how the death of her son Michael in 2008, after four years of critical illness, became the deepest source of her professional purpose. In his final years, Michael had what Sharon describes as dementia-like symptoms — and what he spoke about were the places he had been, the memories he had built. After his death, Sharon and her husband founded Kairos Adventures, an organisation that now serves 125 people with disabilities five days a week through arts, music, sculpting and computer science. Sharon's mission statement — living from integrity and principle, to serve, lead and inspire others to their highest potential — has never changed. Only its expression has. She says her purpose came to life through Michael's life, and went deeper still through his death. You Are Enough — The Advice Sharon Would Give Her Younger Self (01:11:33) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- When asked what advice she would give to her younger self, Sharon's answer is immediate: believe that you are enough. She describes decades of achiever-stage striving — another degree, another seminar, another certification — driven by a deep sense of inadequacy she could not name. It is only in the last two years that she has settled into a genuine sense of sufficiency: I know enough, I have enough to offer, I don't need to prove anything more. She describes this not as complacency but as a state of being rather than striving — a quality of presence and wisdom she is now comfortable inhabiting. Phil Rose reflects that this may be the message that has come up more consistently across six years of Sparks by Ignium than any other. ======================================================================== FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ======================================================================== Lightly edited for readability. Filler words and false starts removed. Phil Rose: the Sparks by Igneum podcast. I am Phil Rose the host and today I'm welcome... welcome this. It's funny isn't it? You look at read something and everything wrong with it. Take again. Welcome back to the Sparks by Igneum podcast. I'm Phil Rose the host and today I'm delighted to welcome Dr Sharon Spano. Sharon is an executive coach who helps high-impact leaders uncover hidden barriers to success and fulfillment. With a PhD in human and organisational systems, blends science and personal development to guide CEOs, consultants and entrepreneurs toward radical growth. She's a host of the other side of potential podcasts and the author of The Pursuit of Time and Money. Today, Sharon shares her insights on breaking free from the emptiness of success to live and lead with purpose. Now I'm interested in talking about this from an entrepreneurial perspective, but also this word purpose, because I think that comes across from looking at her book. So Sharon, welcome to the Sparks by evening podcast. Sharon Spano: Thank you so much, Phil. It's great to be here today. Phil Rose: Thank you. And I said before, actually, in terms of I'm looking forward to this conversation talking about entrepreneurs, that the audience that we have for this podcast is very much around the entrepreneurial leadership growth people. We call it SPARKS. It's about rekindling your passion for your business, redeveloping it and engaging employees. And sometimes that means engaging yourself more as entrepreneurs, they go through a cycle as anyone else does in their journey. And you've seen this as well in your own business career. And I'd love to just tap into some of that. And I'd love to think about where you started this love of looking into what pursuit of time and money means. Because you wrote the book back in 2017. So I'd love to delve back into that as a starting point as to what prompted you to make that decision to write that book. Sharon Spano: Sure. Sharon Spano: Well, it was a combination of things, Phil, because... I had already done the research. My work is grounded in human development, as you know, and I'm often heard to talk about the 12 stages of human development as we know of them today. And I was equally curious after I did my doctoral work in the research, I started to really notice that my clients had either a lot of time and no money, you know, because they weren't working to the level they perhaps needed to be or could be, or they had a lot of money because they were working really hard, but no time. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: And when I started to look into it even further, I realized, you we talk about time, we talk about money, but really do we talk about them together? And when you think about the fact that we make literally dozens and dozens of decisions every day based on whether or not we have enough time and money to execute on those decisions, I just got really curious about it. So I decided to do some preliminary research and look at how leaders experience time and money from their development. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: developmental stage. And it was just a fascinating project. I mean, I could have spent years and years on it. We didn't. But we got enough data to see some differentiations that were interesting and to really look at the spectrum between scarcity and abundance through the lens of the developmental stages. Phil Rose: Yeah, that's interesting. And it's interesting that spectrum, and for some of the listening I've been doing listening to some of the material you put out, that piece around scarcity and abundance, and you describe it as a spectrum. And I think that's really interesting because people think about scarcity or they think about abundance. Tell me a bit about that spectrum and how that plays out because there is that continuum between the two. Sharon Spano: Yeah, well, I mean, think we're all familiar with scarcity. mean, that's when we literally think there's never enough. then abundance is also fairly obvious. think it was interesting and surprising to us when we gathered the data was the moderate scarcity and the moderate abundance looked almost identical. What was different in those responses was the moderate, or I should say the moderate scarcity was making a lot of the same decision. So for instance, Phil Rose: Thank Sharon Spano: instance, around retirement. You know, might see two people in those categories, you know, planning for retirement because it's, the responsible thing to do. But maybe the moderate scarcity, some of the responses around that were fear based decisions. An example I'm often heard to use is a gentleman I interviewed who wasn't even taking his kids on vacation or lived here in Orlando, in fact, and wouldn't even go to Disney World or anything because he's saving for retirement and he was in his 40s. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: So it's kind of like I'm missing my life because I'm thinking of the future and I think I'm being responsible but I'm really pretty much tied up in fear-based decisions which as I'm often heard to say are not really in my opinion decisions at all because they're based on emotion very rarely are they based on data or information. Phil Rose: That's interesting, isn't it? Because that fear-based thing coming out where people actually are fearful of spending the money they've got and fearful about not having enough when they get to the end of that retirement. And for someone in their 40s as well to be thinking like that. So that's an interesting piece around that as well, I would assume. Sharon Spano: Yeah, and then the moderate abundance, you they're still preparing for the future. we looked at lot of different categories in terms of generosity and things like that. But the moderate abundance, they are driven more by that responsibility. But again, you know, they believe they can, just as the abundant person does, the person who comes from that abundant perspective, they believe they can create what they need. They can create more money. They can generate time or they can be good stewards are often very good stewards of their time and their resources in general. Phil Rose: So that word creating is interesting. So I think about the entrepreneurial world in which I work for the last 21 years. It's really interesting because most entrepreneurs have that creative visionary approach to life. So they see that they can go and create whatever's needed. And you often hear about entrepreneurs, they'll make it, lose it, make it, lose it, but they know they can always get more of it, even though they might lose it in the process. So how does that work from a versus scarcity where some people, you know, I think about my previous role, I was in a corporate career up till 2000. 2000 in fact, 25 years ago. So there's that corporate mindset of might be abundance, but they've got a different mindset relative to an entrepreneur. Is there a difference in that that you've seen? Sharon Spano: Yeah, I do. I believe so. I we didn't really look at the distinctions between corporate and entrepreneurs, but we see it somewhat in the stages of human development, even though they're not directly tied to specific industries or professions. But often when we talk about the 12 stages, they all have different labels depending on the theorist that's talking about them and has done the research. But two of the labels, for instance, are expert and then one is achiever. And they mean different things. not the typical language, they're based on the research. But what I have seen a lot in my career, for instance, are entrepreneurs often fall at the achiever stage. And what we know about that stage of human development is that those people are driven by goals that, you know, they love to chase time and money. You know, they always very, very busy people, a lot of activities, full calendars, love to tell you how busy they are. And they love to chase goals and scale businesses and whatnot. The stage right before that, the early stage often we find people, engineers, financial advisors, attorneys, people who are more technical in their expertise. And so they have a different experience of time and money. And what I found interesting is we looked at those two because those are often the two most prevalent in the workforce. to your point of is it an entrepreneurial effort in terms of how we think about time and money from a more abundant standpoint. If people live and work in a more technical field where they are, let's say, being paid a salary, they may feel more limited in their ability to create. Where an entrepreneur, again, that's their very nature. My husband and I are both entrepreneurs. My husband is one, he has no fear. He always knows I'll just go out and close another deal. We can go do what we need to do, go on a vacation and whatever. I'll create the money for that. Phil Rose: Okay. Thank Sharon Spano: So there is this sense of the ability to attract money, wealth, and create. Where if you're in a nine to five maybe or even an expert level job where you're on a salary, you may not feel that autonomous in your ability to create or generate that money. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: That's interesting, isn't it? When you think about that. So it's that ability to generate and that mindset that goes with it in that case that drives the thinking and the way they manage life. So one question I've got in that case, in terms of the 12 stages, are they sequential stages that you expect people to move through? And we need to talk about what those stages are when you talk about expert earlier. Are they sequential stages? You go one for the next, or can you go back or they set where you are in the first place? Sharon Spano: Well, it's a great question. First, let me explain that the stages, as we know them over close to 80 years of research now, they really represent consciousness. They represent all of who we are, our personality structure, our worldview, our opinions, our culture, how we were brought up. It's really, maybe another way to think about it is our spirit, our soul. It's our consciousness. And so we grow and develop up and into higher or later stages of consciousness. The easiest way for people to understand the stages is the first four are obvious because we've all lived them. That's from birth into adolescence. Back in the day, we used to think that people didn't develop beyond the age 21, 22, but that was based on the development of the cerebral cortex, the decision-making part of the brain, which is always a funny thing for me to think about when you realize that we have so many experiences in life beyond age 21. a lot of our growth occurs in the first five years of life in terms of, you know, the monumental milestones we tend to think about development in those earlier years. That's what we first began to study back in the day of Jean Piaget when he was studying early childhood development. So the good news is that we continue to develop. And how we continue to develop and expand our consciousness is based on our life experiences and how we make meaning of those experiences. But to your question, they are sequential. What we always talk about is we transcend and include. The simplest example I offer is a toddler doesn't forget to crawl when he learns to walk. He just does it less often. Phil Rose: Okay, okay, okay. Sharon Spano: We bring it with us. The downside of that is we bring the shadow side of ourselves with us too as we develop, unless we do the work around understanding perhaps some trauma that has occurred in our lives, whether it's loss of a loved one, loss of a job, divorce, maybe even divorce of our parents earlier in our years. As we make meaning of those life experiences, we grow and expand consciousness hopefully into the later stages. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: may get stuck there. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: People who have early childhood trauma, for instance, I work with a lot of high level executives who have some form of early childhood trauma. And trauma can be anything from the capital T to lowercase t. My parents divorced and I was traumatized because I didn't see my dad again, that kind of thing. So we can get stuck in a developmental stage. I'm often heard again to say that our prisons are full of Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: men and women who are developmentally stuck, who literally cannot see the consequences of their actions ahead of time. That immediate self gratification of, I'm gonna do this now and I don't even think it's possible that I could wind up in jail for robbing that liquor store or whatever. Phil Rose: That's interesting. Okay. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah, okay. Sharon Spano: So we can get stuck in stages, but if we do the work, we can expand and move forward. To your question earlier about the entrepreneurs, I also wanted to point out that there's also the potential for blind optimism at the achiever stage. Phil Rose: Okay, okay, tell me about that. That's interesting. Sharon Spano: So you want to be careful of that because while they think and believe they can create, many of them do move in and out of businesses. I use something called the Harrison Assessment, which will show if one of my clients falls into the category of blind optimism. And if so, that's something we need to work on because someone with blind optimism can tend to be overly optimistic about their potential and what they can accomplish. this business is going to earn and how fast I'm going to earn it. And, you know, they need to be aware of that tendency so that they don't get into situations that, you know, cause them failure down the road. Phil Rose: really interesting. So as you say, that achiever gets to that blind optimism. just want to that everything becomes possible in their mind, but they don't think about the consequence of it just in case. It's all about positivity. if you were to, you you mentioned there that it starts with birth, goes to adolescence. And previously people thought about stopping development of stages at 21, because that's when the cerebral cortex would develop. talk me through the next stage. You said the first four stages are in there. What's the next four stages and beyond? How's that? Sharon Spano: Right, right. Phil Rose: work out. Sharon Spano: There's, see if I can remember them all now because I've worked so much. Phil Rose: If it's relevant in that case, yeah. Sharon Spano: Yeah, I work mainly in the six because there's the main six that we see in the corporate world, but we see X, well, there's opportunists, which is adolescents age, you know, conformist opportunists were, and we all know that the conformists, you know, our adolescent who wants the designer jeans because everybody's wearing him or the car that all his buddies have, you know, that conformist stage. And then and then there's pluralist and, and then there's construct a war where and I'm kind of missing a few I think I have a Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: and Sharon Spano: big chart here. me, so there's Achiever, if I can turn my head for a minute. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah, go for it. Sharon Spano: It's a while since I wrote that book and did that research. There's achiever, pluralist, strategist, construct aware that we get into transpersonal, universal, and what is often referred to as illumined. We don't have, when you get to like the population is around 58 to 60 % somewhere in there, depending on what theorists you talk to that are at the expert achiever stage. That's for the American workforce. That's where we see most Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: people in the workforce. You don't see them typically in what we call the later stages. And let me also stress, Phil, that we really want to be careful to help people understand that we don't ever say one stage is better than the other. Yeah. Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Okay, I was going to ask that question earlier. Okay, that's interesting. Right. Sharon Spano: And they're not, it's not better. It's just a different perspective, perhaps a broader perspective. And I always use the analogy of a mountain top. know, if I'm a baby sitting in a crib, you know, all I can see is my crib and my stuffed animal or my own, own wrist. That's my world, right? You know, as I grow, maybe now I'm allowed to ride down the street and I get to experience a little bit more of my neighborhood on my bicycle. But if you're, you know, at that top of that mountain, imagine a Phil Rose: Mmm. Phil Rose: So, okay. Yeah. Sharon Spano: clear day. know when I live in my place in North Carolina in the summer, can see if I go up to Mount Mitchell, I can see across four states. Not the best analogy, but to give an idea that the expansion of consciousness allows us to have a bigger, broader perspective on the world. It's no longer egocentric about me, mine, myself. I'm looking now at what's happening around the world, even the universe when you get up into the Phil Rose: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sharon Spano: the later stages. Constrict aware is stage 10 and there's about 5 % of the population that we know of that exists at that level that we've been able to test. Phil Rose: Okay. Phil Rose: Okay, that's interesting. So interesting actually. So I've taken the Leaders Edge test that you've got on your website to look at that. So that's something that, is that something that you'd recommend people go and take to go and get an indication of where they are? And like I've done it in isolation, is it something that you can take in isolation without follow-up work with you? Or is it something that they need to be guided through? Sharon Spano: Yeah. Sharon Spano: Well, the reason we developed the Leaders Edge, and thank you for asking, because we'll have it on the website with a specific page to your podcast. And your listeners can find it at sharonspano.com forward slash sparks. Phil Rose: Okay. Phil Rose: Perfect, thank you. Sharon Spano: I developed that because chamber is particularly always want to know where they fall, like what's their stage. And the theorists that have developed the instruments that we use to really figure that out are, they're pretty expensive because they're scored by hand and it's a very complicated process. I'm hoping at some point, some of these instruments will, or the people who have built them will realize that AI could really score them now. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: they're based on language. So we know based on the instrument, based on, there's 31 or 33, I should say, stem sentences, and you fill in the blank, and how people fill in the blank, based on the debriefing and the scoring mechanism, tells the scorer what stage you're at. You're gonna have just theoretically more complex answers if you're later stage. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Okay. Phil Rose: I got it. Okay, that makes sense. Sharon Spano: Well, it's a very systematized, you know, I'm not explaining it that well, but it's a very highly researched instrument. There's several of them out there, but they're very expensive. So what I did was I took the six that we see primarily in the workforce. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: and we developed just a simpler quiz that would give people a little bit of an idea of what we call their center of gravity. Because we're never, you asked me earlier if we go back and forth, we have what we call a center of gravity. So like you evolve and now this is where I land. Let's say I'm at the achiever stage, but under stress, I may slide back into an expert stage. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Okay, okay. Sharon Spano: Oh, so let's imagine that the I have actually a client who's an engineer. And he's at that expert stage as an engineer. After working with me years and years, we finally got him to start acting like an entrepreneur, because he was one who wanted to work in the business, not on the business. We all talk about coaches and consultants. Now he's starting to do more entrepreneurial achiever things, meeting deadlines better. You he used to do Phil Rose: Okay. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Sharon Spano: like he was so interested in just working on the project he'd forget to do the billing. He'd bill, you he wouldn't keep, you know, it's very common that people at the expert stage are not good at keeping track of their time. Well, that's detrimental to your business because if you can't bill appropriately, right? Phil Rose: Okay. Okay. Okay. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: So you will move up and down, but you have a center of gravity. And so the Leaders Edge quiz is intended to help you kind of see where that is. Then to answer your other question, if you're stuck, this is the main thing I want people to understand. If you're feeling stuck in life, you are not failing. You are most likely leaning into a later stage. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: that's interesting. Leaning into a later stage. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Sharon Spano: And that's where you need a coach or someone to help you through that part. Because you would not know that. How do I, I'm feeling like everything I knew, everything I did before, everything I believed before, that's when people start doing crazy things. They move, they get divorces, they close down their businesses or they start one because they're uncertain. Their identity feels. very unclear to them. It's a very scary period of life because you're literally shedding kind of the old way and you're stepping into a new way of being and you will probably need some support along the way there, whether it's from a coach, a therapist, consultant, someone of that nature. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: That's it. Phil Rose: So it's a transition point in that case, where people move from one side to the other. Okay, that's interesting. Sharon Spano: Exactly. And it's exciting because it's a time of growth. not a time to, it feels yucky, but once you understand that it's a time of growth and an opportunity, then it's, you'll have many of them in your life if you're lucky. It's actually a very exciting time. And I know you know this because of the work you do as well. Phil Rose: Hmm. Phil Rose: Yeah, so it's interesting. So I want to come away from leaders as you know, we can't come back to it because the thing you made me think there is when the people get stuck. And one of the things you and I talked about previously when we talked is very much around a lot of high achievers, they have it all, but they feel something's missing. So there's that piece there. So I wonder how that relates in that case of having it all in their mind, but they're just feeling empty. How does that play out? Sharon Spano: Right. Well, I refer to it in my work as the emptiness of success. And so it's mainly, and in fact, you introduced me as the host of The Other Side of Potential. We're rebranding now. And the new podcast, which will be out in a few months, is called The Unstuck and Unstoppable Leader. Because that's my next... Phil Rose: Okay. Phil Rose: Wow, okay, okay. Sharon Spano: point of curiosity is I've worked with so many high end leaders, high achievers who do have it all and but then something is out of whack or there something is missing. And again, that's because they've been in that achiever mode their whole life. They've got the degrees done the business got the house the two the two cars the two kids, whatever it is. Whatever whatever the dream was I have it now. Now what? Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sharon Spano: Is this all there is? And so that's the work that I do is I really help leaders figure out what's holding them back or where they're feeling stuck so that they can be better leaders for themselves, for their businesses, but more importantly, for the families, because I've seen too many who have lost their families along the way. they, what's it, you you started the conversation with purpose. So what really is my purpose? Cause I've earned the money, but what does that really mean? And so we, often have to go, excuse me, we have to go backwards a little bit. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: it. look at the family history, look at how you got to where you are, what were the drivers, what are the myths, what are the stories? And it's fascinating because we get to really discover, well, I've pushed myself this far because my father was an immigrant and he worked really hard and I was told very young that you had to work hard to be successful in this country or whatever. There's always a story in the background that has Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: catapulted me to success, but also holding me still somewhat hostage. And we've got to figure that out. And then we're free to explore what is the deeper purpose and what is it going to take for me to have the greatest level of fulfillment in my life. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, it's just interesting actually because I often use that word purpose and say about the best business owners that I work with and best businesses are the ones that have a purpose above and beyond making money. Because I seen over the last 20 years the businesses I work with where the ones that just come in it for commercial gain get to a point and then they get stuck. But if they've expand themselves to think about that purpose above and beyond money, they've got something else to guide them as well. And it might be they create another business. but they have to go through those transitional points of whatever we call them, I call them brick walls, where they hit a brick wall and they've got to do something different and they've got to do something to get through that brick wall. Because the other side, there's some other adventure, but they've got to work out how to get through that wall in the first place. So it's really interesting when you're linking that to the fact that you get stuck at a point and it might be that you're stuck at a transition to a later stage where you've got to do something else with your life. So I wonder when you've talked to... business leaders over the years of you doing this, what are the barriers, what are the hidden barriers that you see people coming up against, even when they've had the contringent therapy, but they're still holding themselves in that stuck position? Sharon Spano: Well, we've been talking a lot these last few years out in the world that you and I live in about imposter syndrome. And I think that's a big thing today, you know, where people, because you're no longer measuring yourself up against the corporate environment you're in or the business you're in or, the industry that you're in. You're now... Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: There's so much noise out there and all the vanity numbers and the things that we should be doing and the marketing and blah, blah, blah, that I think it's very difficult for people to accept that I am enough. So we do the work to figure out what stories may be holding you back. But then if there's still that resistance, I had a colleague who was actually a... a client at first and then became a colleague and eventually came to work for me. He was a former CEO and he used to say, behind every door you kick that down and there's a scared little boy. Phil Rose: you Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Sharon Spano: You know, I don't want to minimize the power of that CEO role, you whether it's male or female, but there's a lot of pressure in today's world to be a business leader, whatever level you're at, that I don't think other generations have experienced because you're always under a microscope. Phil Rose: Hmm. Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sharon Spano: And the sense of authority is always being challenged. there's just, I just feel like, we're like in a fishbowl everywhere we turn today. Everybody's got a camera, everybody's watching you. So if you are in a leadership role, I mean, it is not an easy place to be in today's market. So a lot of what I'm doing is holding up the mirror and helping them see their highest potential. Phil Rose: Hmm. Sharon Spano: greatest compliments I get and I've had it come to me many times through my clients is they feel seen. And I feel like, wow, if I can do that, then I'm really doing something because, you know, I think that's our job as coaches and consultants is, you know, we can't just be in there for our own sake. We have to be in there to help them be their their highest self. And Phil Rose: Wow. yeah. Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Mm-hmm. Sharon Spano: I just think as much as we're in a fishbowl today, people don't feel seen or connected. Phil Rose: That last piece, I think, is really interesting. I think from what I've seen, what I've seen is people don't feel connected. And I think, you if we go back five years ago to when we were in middle of the pandemic, we all went online doing these things and some businesses are still maintaining that distance working. And irrespective of that, I think people do feel that they're in their own little bowl and they don't get a chance to be connected with other people. They don't have time to do it. So I think there's a big, there's a big knock on from that five year period of the pandemic that we're still suffering from. with people are still being on the screen all the time. Sharon Spano: Well, I agree and then, you know, we're just the pressure of everything has to be done yesterday. I mean, I was with a client yesterday and, you know, he's like, Sharon, you know, I'm working 12 hour days and I can't keep up. I mean, people can't keep up. Of late, my message, Phil, has been... I think we need to stop and accept the fact that we will never get it done by the end of the day. There was a time where you have a to-do list and you got it done by the end of the day. It's impossible now. There's always something more to do. So I think we, I know for myself, I make a conscious decision. There's X amount of things that I want to get done today. And I keep that main list very small. Phil Rose: Yeah, all the tricks. Yeah. Yeah. Sharon Spano: You know, these are the main, like I gotta get these five things done today. I'll do a million other things. But then I reach a point at the end of the day where I can say to myself, you did today what you needed to do tomorrow is another day. Because it just can't, I'm leaving for vacation on Friday. And what I have gone through this week just to get it done, you know, me. Phil Rose: Love that. Phil Rose: OK. Phil Rose: to clear the rest. Sharon Spano: You need the clients, and you're trying to get the laundry and the cleaning, and you need new socks because you're going somewhere cold, and you're trying to do your life in the middle of preparing your clients and your business for you to be gone. It's insane. And I'll get it all done by Friday morning. I know I will. But don't be things that I'm just going to have to let go of that I'll have to consider when I get back. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, it's really interesting. Sharon Spano: And I have to be okay with that. And I think it's a very difficult thing for us to do in today's world. We have to make a conscious decision that one, we are enough and that today I did enough. Phil Rose: Yeah, I love that. There's a whole load of things in that just unpacking that. We are enough, I did enough. Dan Sullivan from strategic coach talk about having, you know, do not do list because you we all have our to do list, but let's have our not to do list because I think that's the key as well. too few people put things on there, but that thing about, you know, I am enough and I've done enough. We'll do what's needed. And I think there's a whole load of things there. And when we think about that time and money, I think this becomes key because Picking up on what you've just said there, one of the key things you mentioned about is around the way we have to do so much and there's so much pressure on our time. So thinking about your book and your book was written back in 2017 now, so eight years ago and some of the key messages in there, they're even more powerful now, but definitely this pursuit of time and money and the fact that we all are... Sharon Spano: Yes. Phil Rose: managed by time, we've got this guidance of money if that's what drives us. I wonder how do people relate to that difference between money and time? And that comes back to a conversation we talked about earlier, but money and time, let's talk about that because some people, as you said, the entrepreneur, they're driven by they want money, they're driven by doing more and they have less time. So let's, how does that work in? How does time play out for people in a continuum? Sharon Spano: Well, it's such a complex question because even when I was doing the work, I couldn't find a way. We had to ask the questions and do the research separately. We couldn't even find a way to put them together, but they're so intertwined. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Sharon Spano: We literally, as I said earlier, we're making decisions all day long about, you know, based on time and money. And, you I, for instance, you know, when I was at the achiever stage earlier in my career, I literally used to say and believe that I could move time. I could take on more and more and more and more. And I would say, don't worry about it I could move time. Well, what that meant for me was I'll just get up an hour earlier. I'll just get up at three instead of four. I'll get up at four instead of five. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: You know, I'll work all weekend. But what I wasn't aware of is that other people were paying a price for that. My team. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: was paying a price for me taking on that other project. My family was paying a price for me working that weekend or whatever. And the way I came to realize that was I remember one time being at a seminar with my second command, my main person, and he was an operations guy. So he thought in terms of employee output, time and money. I just thought in terms of the next big idea, which is what entrepreneurs Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Mm-hmm. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: do, right? And so we go to this seminar and we're walking down the corridor after this particular meeting and I said, oh, we got to do that right away. Something we had heard in the seminar. And he stopped and he said, and I remember he was behind me and he stopped. So I had to turn around and he said, what do you mean by that? I said, what do you mean? What do I mean? When you say we got to do that right away, what do you mean? Phil Rose: The visionary, yeah. Sharon Spano: I just stopped and I said, I don't really know what I mean other than I thought that was a cool thing and we should do it. He goes, yeah, but when you say right away, his brain would go to, we have X amount of projects, X amount of time. When are we gonna fit this into her schedule? Not only can she not do it, we can't execute on her behalf. We don't have enough man hours to do this. And I have to tell you, Phil, it was such a shock to me because I did not realize that they took my words literally when I would say we need to do this thing. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Phil Rose: Hmm? Hmm? Phil Rose: That's so purple. Sharon Spano: And I coach my people now when your boss is putting pressure on you, he's really just trying to get it off of his desk onto yours. Ask the questions. Well, I have A, B, C, D, as a priority. Do you want me to put this in front of that or behind that? Give me a sense of how, because nine times out of 10, I bet you he or she is gonna say, I don't really. Phil Rose: Hmm. Sharon Spano: No, or I don't really care. Just do it as you can. They don't really remember all that's on your desk or what they've asked of you. And that was certainly true for me. And that was a pivotal moment in my life where I realized my entrepreneurial spirit of let's do more, more, more. And I've got another great idea was imposing a lot of time, money, restrictions and pressure on the people around me. And I had no idea. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: I think that's so powerful. I think every entrepreneur will be in that same category. If you're that visionary entrepreneur who's just full of ideas, you're going to be thinking about all the things you could be doing as a result of this podcast now, and you're going to go and dump it on your team. And you're right, so many entrepreneurs go to a seminar or go to read a book and say, we've got to do this. they, you know, I always use the word, Vern Harnish, who I work with closely, says words cast spells. And when you say right away, someone says, right away? Sharon Spano: Mm-hmm. Phil Rose: And you're just saying, we're gonna do it. And it's really interesting. How are you gonna fit into your week? You're working flat out already. And I think there's something there about entrepreneurs need to take that step back, but they're so busy. They're so fast in that fast lane. They don't think about the implications on the people who are planning logistically in the head of how to get things done in that 40 hour, 50 hour week that you've got in your diary already. Sharon Spano: Yeah. Sharon Spano: Well, I'm getting ready to do a strategic planning session with the company in January. And I've been interviewing the guys in the field right now, the department heads, because I know what's going to happen. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: I have to be very careful that the leaders on day one don't come up with all these great ideas and then we dump it on them to implement and they already are still struggling with the implementation of all the tasks they were given by another planning process with a different consultant last year. And I don't want to be the person that comes in and says, okay, we're starting over and we're going to give you a whole bunch of other things that you're not going to be able to execute on. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: And so I've been interviewing them to figure out where they are with what happened last year and what they would like to see this year so that I can manage the day one leaders in their visioning process. And then we'll come together on day two and we'll integrate all of this because I'm very much aware of how entrepreneurs think and being one myself. And like you said, the many ideas, I would come home from a weekend seminar with a list of things we have to do. right away. And so yeah, we need to be thinking about that intersection of time and money and what's realistic. Phil Rose: Yeah. I think that's really interesting, isn't it? And I think that thing about time, one thing you told me when we talked last time, and I've heard you talk about on other podcasts, I'd love to delve into is the fact that time is finite. We don't have time repeated. So you talked to me about, know, when your son was growing up and your husband decided you need to go on your road trip. And I think this is really interesting because a lot of people, entrepreneurs especially, would just work, work, work. They won't take that time to do things. They've got to earn more money. And there's this conundrum, I think, in lot of people's minds. They've got to keep going. Whereas I think you do get to a certain stage in life, or I have, certainly, where I'm thinking, time is fine now. I've got to get doing other things as well. And vacations become really important to me. And also, you mentioned you're going on vacation on Friday. So it's the Christmas period coming up. A lot of people will work, you know, work up to the deadline of Christmas Eve and then they'll back in work again. Whereas for me, I take that time off because that's a replenishment time for me. And Dan Sullivan says that one of the key tenets, mostly around freedom of time and freedom of money. And I think that ability to take that vacation and realize that you're not going to get that time back when the kids are growing up, for instance, if you have children. Sharon Spano: Same here. Sharon Spano: Yeah, I mean, it's never convenient, right, to take time for ourselves or, you know, away from the business. you know, referring to what you mentioned earlier, when my husband made that decision, he was in transition business-wise. And I remember my son was around 13 and for listeners, my son was disabled. And my husband said, you know, want to go on this trip across, you know, the United States. And I said, we can't afford that now because he was in this transition. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: And he said I'll never have this kind of time and he'll never be this age again a few more years He will not want to be with us in the same way So we did six weeks across the United States with my son in a wheelchair and his canine companion dog And I have to tell you Phil, and I think you know my son passed away in 2008 During his four-year illness. He was critical for four years and he was basically like dementia. He didn't even know us. What he talked about were the places he'd been. In his mind were all these memories of these trips, these cities, these places. And it was quite a lesson for us. And particularly now, and partly why I say that I work with executives to help them be better leaders for their families, because I work with way too many who now have built the empire and they have zero connection with their adolescent children. And now they're trying to figure out how to create that. Well, the bad news is it's almost too late. I mean, there's some things that we can work on that may help, but basically their kids don't know them. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Hmm. Sharon Spano: And what we learned when my son was ill, and my husband has said it a million times, thank God we created memories, not only for him that he hung onto during his critical years of illness, but for us. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: because now that he's gone, we have all of those memories, not only of that one six week trip, we would make a point of every year, Michael would pick a place that he wanted to visit for his birthday and we would take a trip. And I know that's not easy for every family. mean, you have to make sacrifices, you have to save, you have to plan. It may not be something people can do every year. But I really want to encourage people out there who are really on Phil Rose: Well. Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah Sharon Spano: the treadmill as most of us are in business. Time and money, they're important, but there's ways that we can think about them in an abundant perspective, such that it includes creating memories for the people we love. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, I think it's really interesting, it? Because as you said, creating memories becomes the key thing because you could have generated more money, but that wouldn't have given you the thoughts of what you've got now. That memories you created from your six week road trip or picking a different city to visit, doing those different things. Actually, that's an amazing opportunity to do those things. And people often talk about getting work life balance or time management. You have a phrase around time integration. Sharon Spano: Mm-hmm. Phil Rose: And I just want to explore that because, if I look at my bookshelf now, I've got umpteen books on time management and there's one I can see in there, more time, less stress. It's all those things. Let's talk about time integration because I think that becomes key. Because if you're an entrepreneur or if you're just a leader, or in fact, if you're just a human being, you're busy, busy, busy doing things. As you said, for you to go on holiday this weekend, you've got the washing to do, you've got the socks to fire and you've got the bags to pack and you've got the business. Sharon Spano: Mm-hmm. Sharon Spano: Right. Phil Rose: It doesn't matter who you are, you still need to manage that. So how do we get better at managing time integration in our lives? Sharon Spano: Yeah, I think for me, I don't believe in the phrase work-life balance because I don't think, and it's a semantic nuance distinction, but I don't think we're ever fully balanced. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sharon Spano: I think we have to learn to integrate the circumstances of our life, the reality of what we're in with what's available to us in terms of time, money, whatever those resources are, even energy. So for me, it's really about making choices that are based on what's happening now. When Michael was in and out of the hospital those four years, I had the highest client load ever. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: And if I'd known it was gonna go on for four years, I probably would have just quit everything. But you think tomorrow's gonna be a better day and you've got huge insurance bills and we're both entrepreneurs. We don't have insurance, we pay for our insurance. So not like you guys in the UK, you're very blessed. Phil Rose: Thank Phil Rose: Yeah, we are. We are. There's one bonus. Sharon Spano: But so what that meant was choices. know, I had to be at the hospital all night. So I wasn't I didn't have the energy in the morning to get up and go to the gym. It was all I could do to rush home, get a shower and get to a client. You know, my husband came to the hospital and and took over. So, you know, we we integrated our. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: It was really a whole life experience. We integrated our personal life with our professional life. I don't think we can separate those things out in today's world. We're living both all the time. We're working in our mind all the time and we're living our life all the time. So for me, the key to integration is to be where you are and be present where you are. Phil Rose: Okay. Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Phil Rose: And that's such an important word, isn't it? Be present because there's so many times in life people are not present. And it comes back to the point you made earlier that one of your things about holding the mirror up to people and they feel seen. And I think you feel seen because you're in that moment, you're present in that moment there. And I think so many people rush through life without thinking about today and that moment you're in at the moment. And I think that's the meditation that I think most people would need to learn. how to be present to where they are at that moment in time. Sharon Spano: Yeah, it's not an easy thing to do. It's not a talent that is easily achievable, I don't think. Phil Rose: Good night. Sharon Spano: And we've all been with people, you I have several people in my life now who, wherever they are, they're already, you can feel it and you can hear it in the things they say. They want to be somewhere else or they're thinking about where they need to be next instead of just being present where they are. There's a great amount of peace and learning to just, as I was saying to somebody yesterday, one of my clients, settle down in your cage. When I learned that, when my son was in and out of the hospital, Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Sharon Spano: When I was in the hospital, I was in the hospital. If he was sleeping, I'd be on my laptop working, doing things that I needed to do. But it didn't serve him or me for me to be in the hospital feeling bad that I wasn't with the client. When I was with the client, I totally put everything else out of my mind. And that wasn't always easy when you have a sick child in the hospital. Phil Rose: Just be there. Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: It's a discipline, I think. You know, it's something that can be learned. Phil Rose: Yeah, it is. Yeah, and interesting discipline comes from habit and you've got to go through that and like any habit, you've got to keep at it. interesting, we come back to word purpose. You've got to be intentional about it. If you've got a purpose, you've got to be intentional and set that discipline and that will be at the end of the day, that will guide you towards it. And interesting, isn't it? Because if we think about that word scarcity, when you talked earlier about the continuum of scarcity and abundance, you've got to have that ability to think. in an abundant mindset when it comes to time as well. Because if you're thinking time is scarce, time is finite, which is the words I used earlier, actually you've got one mindset. But if you've got an abundant mindset, wonder how that plays out. And you you've used this phrase, radical abundance. How does radical abundance impact the way we be when we're thinking about time as well as thinking about money? Sharon Spano: Yeah, I think when I was talking about radical abundance in the book, what I was thinking about was people who feel they have enough wherever they are. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: And that came to me when I was in Costa Rica visiting. I think it was either right after I wrote the book or no, it had to be before because that's when it came to me and why the idea came to me was, you know, I saw so much poverty there. for me, coming from Los Angeles, California, poverty equates to crime and scarcity. have to get whatever I can in order to survive. That's kind of the inner city mentality of many Phil Rose: Hmm. Sharon Spano: of the places I think around the world but certainly in the United States. And what I saw in Costa Rica to my surprise and I was you know in the Guanacosta area was in San Jose which has quite a bit of crime but in Guanacosta was just really really happy people who were very poor but Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: they were just at least seemingly enjoying their lives and their families. And it was kind of a shocking thing to me how safe I felt there. Because when I first got there, I was like, my God, you I'm not safe here. Because that's the mentality that I know from poverty is you're not safe if you're in a neighborhood, you know, that could be, it could be dangerous here. So that was one aspect of it for me. The radical abundance is you feel secure that there's enough regardless of your circumstances. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: And I think I knew it intuitively because I came from a very poor family. We lived in the inner cities of LA. But I didn't know we were poor. You know, we just lived our lives. And, you know, I really didn't think much about it. I mean, it wasn't... Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Okay. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: I mean, I didn't want for anything, but I didn't know that I should want for anything either. It was what you had is what you had. And it was what it was. When I look back now, you I realize, well, we really had very little, but I didn't know the difference. Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Phil Rose: Wow. And I think that's really interesting, isn't it? Because if you're in that at the time, and I'm going to come on saying in a minute, if you're it at the time, you don't recognize what you could have. My daughter worked in Cambodia last year. In fact, a year ago, she was in Cambodia, working in a school, teaching young children English, because the person who founded the school lived through... the Khmer Rouge, his parents were killed and he realised that to help him move forwards and other people move forwards, English would be the way forward because if he could teach that, could help the tourist industry, could help people understand. So he gave the children the opportunity and he set up the school and he funded it himself. And he had people like my daughter come out who aren't teachers, you know, she was a 19 year old, to come out and just teach English. And what she came back with was saying... along those of you know, when we look at things in the western world, in England, in America, you see wealth, you see poverty. Whereas her view is these kids are growing up with what we would say is nothing. But what they did have was that ability to look at the world and think, hey, I've got everything. I've got hell, whatever health meant to them. They've got wealth because they can learn English. They can go and play in the street. And was a really different insight. And my daughter came back realising two things. One is how lucky she was living where she did, but also how she, we have that mindset around what people looked like and how they lived their lives and what poverty means to us versus them. It's really interesting hearing that from a 19 year old's perspective. Sharon Spano: Yes, what an amazing insight that will carry her a long way. And I had similar feeling in Costa Rica because driving through the neighborhoods, you know, I mean, it was dirt roads and kids playing in the dirt in the street and blah, blah. And, you know, then we went back through this same neighborhood on a Sunday and they were all out there, you know, having, you know, barbecues and they were all in the street. And I thought, Wow, know, on these beautiful beaches, mind you, that the government has decided, you know, for the most part cannot be developed because it belongs to the people, at least in this certain area. And I remember thinking they don't need a Mercedes in every driveway. they are living their lives and loving their children. I don't want to sound, know, mean, prostitution is legal there. mean, there are certainly things that are happening, you know, because families need money, you know, that I probably don't understand. But my experience was these are happy people for the most part, living their lives, loving their families, enjoying their lives. And it's simple here. I mean, Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Wow, okay. Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sharon Spano: My husband was so impressed he wanted to move there because of the simplicity of the lifestyle there. The problem is you can't a deed on property. It's so simple that there you could buy a piece of property and then not own it two years later was what we ran up against. Phil Rose: Is that? Phil Rose: That's interesting. Sharon Spano: Yeah, it's interesting. think, you know, that's what I love about traveling so much is when you see what other cultures experience, you realize, you know, everybody doesn't have to be like the West to be fulfilled and happy. Phil Rose: Yeah, I think, and that's really interesting, that word fulfilled and happy because, we have our perceptual happinesses. We have that, you know, as you said, the pursuit of time and money. A lot of people have the pursuit of money. They don't think about the time aspect. So we're driving ourselves as business owners, as corporate employees, as entrepreneurs to drive towards or something. And it's only when we get that differentiation and realize that we can have that abundant mindset if we choose. Sharon Spano: Mm-hmm. Phil Rose: where some people I think from what I'm hearing from you is get stuck in either a scarcity mindset because of the trauma they've experienced in the past life or the experience. And also the beliefs they've got as well. And I wonder how that plays out because obviously we talk about trauma, but actually it can just be the beliefs of the way you've been brought up. So if you were, as you say, you were brought up in a poorer neighborhood in LA, but you had some different beliefs around what you could do with your life. So I wonder how do we help people who are stuck in their old beliefs? And you mentioned about prison earlier. those people who just don't see themselves breaking free of the way their dad did or the way their grandfather did or where their mother did it. How do we help them? Sharon Spano: Yeah, they don't know what they don't know. So going back to the time money conversation, those were the questions we started with was, what do you believe about time? What do you believe about money? Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: What did you learn from your parents about time? What did you learn about money? And people know right away, well, you there was never enough. My mother was adamant we could never be late. You know, we were always rushing or, you know, whatever. You know, my dad, you know, was very frugal. He worked very hard. You know, we never could go on vacation. So those beliefs carry into our adulthood lives. Phil Rose: Thank Phil Rose: Hmm. Sharon Spano: And for me, even though when I say I didn't know we were poor, I also was led to believe that rich people were bad people. Phil Rose: that's interesting. Okay. Yeah. Sharon Spano: So as my husband and I became successful, I struggled with that. It was embarrassing to me. know, I mean, you my mother had a favorite phrase, it must be nice. So if you bought a house or you buy, it must be nice. You know, she was a World War II, saved tin foil kind of person, never had much. And it took me many years to be able to finally say to her, you know, mom, it is nice, be happy for us. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: must be nice. I never got to go on vacation. It must be nice. So I had a lot of guilt and shame. But my husband, again, being the eternal optimist and coming from a different family background. Phil Rose: Mmm. Sharon Spano: where, you know, again, more the entrepreneurial, you can create what you need. And he grew up in a much more affluent household. mean, they came, his grandmother came from Italy with nothing, but they were entrepreneurs and they built a decent life. So he comes from a different perspective and it's still a battle for us, when we're traveling. I don't make the hotel reservations because I can't, they're too expensive for me. Phil Rose: you Phil Rose: Yeah? Yeah. Phil Rose: Interesting. So that answers some of the questions. So the question I was going to ask just now is what did you need to do to overcome that guilt and shame? What was the mental process? Because if you've got you with one background, your husband with a different background with that entrepreneurial mindset, you came from that frugal background with your you said about your grandmother or your mother saving the tin foil. My grandmother used to she used to talk about turning the collars around on my grandfather's shirt. so they didn't have to buy new shirts. That was the mindset, which is that wartime generation. So what did you need to do mentally to overcome that guilt and shame and to be able to say, does feel nice? Because that's a tough thing to do. Sharon Spano: For me, I think it's been a spiritual journey, you know, of really leaning into my own spirituality and knowing that I am enough and I believe in an abundant God. But I think more importantly, changing my definition of wealth and really understanding that we need wealth in the world because when you have wealth, you can do more good. on behalf of others, you know? And so that was part of, because I also seemed to surround myself with friends who enjoyed, not intentionally, but somehow because of my background, I would feel guilty if I had more than a friend, you know, or I was able to do more than a friend. And then I think one day it just clicked for me. It's like, you know, no one gave my husband and I anything. We both have worked hard for what we have. And we've overcome a lot of obstacles, including the death of our son. So we have a foundation. We raise money now for people with disabilities, you know, in our son's name. And I feel like, you know, we don't even often know the level of goodness that people of wealth, and I don't consider myself someone of wealth. just a working person like anybody else. But I do believe that if we didn't have people of wealth who have philanthropic Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: philanthropic hearts. I mean, where would we be as a society? Because our governments certainly can't figure out much of anything today, you know, around the world. I mean, not just in the United States, anywhere. And so you need these foundations. You need people who have, you know, entrepreneurial and philanthropic hearts and are willing to do good for others. And when I figured that out, that really God is an abundant God who wants us to do good with our money, Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anywhere. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Sharon Spano: I'm from the Christian faith and the old saying that money is the root of all evil. Well, that's a misspoken statement. It's the love of money is the root of all evil. Meaning if I put money before the people in my life, before God, that's when I get into trouble. But I can earn money and do good things with it. We need business leaders. We need strong business leaders. And we're seeing, of course, in the last Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Sharon Spano: what 25 years more and more of our big corporations that are doing good things for the environment, good things to solve our social issues. And so that was a shift that occurred to me in understanding that the myths of my childhood that people because it goes back to I was brought up Catholic and it was I often joke about the Pharisees who were wealthy. by the way, they killed Jesus. Don't forget that. So I grew up Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Okay. Sharon Spano: in a household where rich people were bad people. And that was the myth and I that myth for many, many years. Phil Rose: you Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm laughing at myself because we've all had that mindset, haven't we? That's something that we've had ingrained in us. And I'm glad you re-quoted the root of all evil. Because interesting, in fact, this is the third podcast in a month where somebody's quoted that phrase, interestingly, and corrected themselves on the fact of, you know, it's the level. And it's really interesting, isn't it, how we have that mindset that's being dream, jumped into us as a young child. And if you come back to your thinking earlier around the stages, and we talked about, you know, from birth to adolescence, we do get that thing. We model what's happening around us. We pick up the words of our grandparents or our other significant others or our parents, and that's who we are. So there's a chance there for people to break away when they can look at things and expand their mind. And I think this is a really interesting fact of, you know, the entrepreneurs I work with, the leaders you work with. have got the mindset to move on, but there's also something sometimes holding them back and it might be around time, around money, might be around abundance. And we've got to almost unlock that in their mind to help them realize there might be a different way. Because what you don't know is one of the phrases a lot of people talk about, where actually you can have more abundance, more way of doing things just by thinking differently. And I always come back to reading books, there's plenty of them around that might give you some other knowledge around that. Sharon Spano: Right. Sharon Spano: My husband is one that, you know, even in our earlier years when we had far less, if there was someone in need, my husband would be, he's very quick to, you know, donate or contribute or, you know. He's helped so many business leaders connect and grow their businesses just by meeting each other kind of thing. And I can remember being worried and saying, but we don't have the resources to send that check. And he'd say, don't worry about it. It'll come back to us. Phil Rose: you Wow. Sharon Spano: And that's that optimism, that's that entrepreneurial abundance of I can create that was never, that's not in my DNA, but being around him for all these years has helped me step more and more into that. So I offer that to encourage people that that old adage of you are the sum of the six people you hang out with kind of thing. If you're hanging out with people who live in scarcity, be the source of change for them. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: you can, but if not, you know, maybe turn a deaf ear to that conversation and create your own. Because we live in a world of abundance. We really do. It doesn't always feel that way. But we are, we are above the reptile. We're in that we have the mind to change our circumstances if we so desire. I really do believe that. It's not always easy. And certainly we know different cultures, different ethnic backgrounds struggle more than others. But Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, Now I think that's really interesting. Such words of wisdom there, I think it's really interesting just reflecting on some of those things there about, we can have that mindset and it is about mindset. We have that ability to do things differently when we think differently. As you say, your husband's view is it will come back to us. We can donate now. And I wonder, without going into the detail if you don't want to, but how did the loss of your son impact your thinking? Sharon Spano: it can be done. Phil Rose: And how, when you reflect back on that over the last 13 plus years now, 12 years, more than that, how does that help you in terms of moving forwards? Because that's a big trauma in anybody's life. And that abundant mindset must have been tried at some times for you. Sharon Spano: Yeah, I mean, it's a little different when you have a child with a disability, particularly because he suffered for four years. He was 27 when he died, so I say child, but you Phil Rose: and Sharon Spano: By that point, there was a part of me that was relieved he was no longer suffering. So there is that. That's part of the meaning making. Then I leaned into my spiritual development in bigger ways. And just to give an example of how even that level of trauma can result in developmental growth, I went from the achiever stage, not intentionally, was just I was trying to heal. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: to the now I'm at the construct aware stage, which I didn't even know that had happened until I got tested a couple years ago. So I moved up. They typically say if you're doing the work quote, whatever that work looks like for you, it's two years or more. So I advanced in things in a way that helped me settle into the loss. I still dream about him every night. Phil Rose: okay. Sharon Spano: I miss him every morning. There's no question that all of that is there. You're never the same. But then with respect to time, I look at it as it was perfect timing and that he was only supposed to live to the age of two. And I got him to 27. And then we, you know, I honestly don't know that we would have, you you reach a point as a parent who has a child with a disability, you start to worry they're going to outlive you. Phil Rose: Bye. Phil Rose: Wow. Sharon Spano: and what will happen to them. So those were all wrestling stories that I came to terms with that helped me make meaning and feel at peace. And when I have those moments of missing or angst, I remind myself he's no longer suffering and he had a good life. Phil Rose: Mm-hmm. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: And I take on that suffering now in the loss of him. But I feel that it's made me more compassionate, more empathetic. It's the reason I work today because, and it's the reason that I'm passionate about my clients leaning more and more into their families. And they hear it from me because they can't imagine losing one of their own children. I mean, it's every parent's nightmare, right? So I feel like in many ways, if you talk about purpose, Phil Rose: Hmm. Phil Rose: Wow. Phil Rose: Mm-hmm. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: my purpose came to life through his life, but then even deeper, so through his death. It's, It's a legacy, know, his life is a legacy that I try to live up to. Phil Rose: Well, and interesting, would you, like you're trying to live up to, how do you articulate your purpose to yourself and to others? Sharon Spano: Well, my purpose, I did the old Stephen Covey mission statement many, years ago. And I, Phil Rose: Well, yeah, I think. Sharon Spano: It's never changed how I executed upon it has changed. But my purpose is living from integrity and principle. And those two words took a lot of work. You know, they mean a lot of things. They embody my faith and my commitment to my husband, my family, all of those things. So living from integrity and integrity and principle, I will do my utmost to serve, lead and inspire others to their highest potential. Phil Rose: Well, I'm several. Sharon Spano: So my work has always been about bringing people to their highest potential. I didn't always know that, but that was certainly a big part of what Michael's arrival did for me because I did that in my early career for people with disabilities. How do we mainstream them into society? How do we let them live their most meaningful life? Now we do it through the foundation. We started an organization. Phil Rose: Yeah, wow. Sharon Spano: and that organization has now taken on a life of its own and serves about 125 people a week, five days a week. These are people that would be sitting at home and doing nothing and they now have, it's called Kairos Adventures and they do, excuse me, they do arts. Phil Rose: Wow. Sharon Spano: And this went to a play Friday night where they were all on stage performing. They do music, they do sculpting, they do computer science. There's a full team that has taken. It was just an idea that I had for, I thought, five to six people a day a week. And it's turned into this. And we raised money for that. And now other investors are involved. You know, they've got a significant budget and staff and that's all. Phil Rose: amazing. Phil Rose: Yeah, 125. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: That's my link. Sharon Spano: part of my son's legacy. So I'm very proud of that level of work and it's a big part of my purpose. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, and I love that. And as you say about, you know, lead, inspire and get that highest potential. That's what you sound like you're doing all the way through this. Sharon, there's so many other questions I've got and we're going to run out of time now. But so I've got one more one more question, I guess. In fact, the question I was going to ask is around the fact that when I've taken the leader's edge, I've come out as a number one is pluralist, which is really interesting. So looking through that and understanding what that means and. I don't think we need to go into the detail around that now, but I would encourage other people to go and look at that leader's edge and just understand what it means for them. And it talks to me about what I need to do about time and money and how I play that out in my mind, because my second one is strategist, which is really interesting. So I can then understand that and put it together. So I'm going to work on that. And we haven't got time to go into that, but I just... Sharon Spano: Mm-hmm. Sharon Spano: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sharon Spano: Well, if you need any help or questions, reach out and we can always talk further because those are what we would call later stages. Phil Rose: So, Sharon Spano: I'm not surprised given the level of work you do because to do the level of work you do, you've been on a journey and done some growth, obviously. So those are exciting places to be. But also, for anyone out there who may show up later stage to know that it can be, it has its own issues and that one, we bring our shadow with us. that has to, it can just look differently, like a different shadow. even if you've done the work and gotten rid of a lot of that, Phil Rose: Hmm. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: earlier junk, whatever it was that was holding you back. You can also get lonely when you're in the later stages because there's not a lot of people who think like you do or who believe things in the same way and it can feel isolating. That was a big lesson I had to learn because I remember before I knew that I was at the construct aware stage, sitting in meetings and thinking like, why don't they get what I'm talking about? Phil Rose: Mmm, yes. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Sharon Spano: why don't they understand me? I'm making so much sense, but you're talking about things in a way that they haven't heard before, and they're maybe at the achiever stage, and they're looking at, we've got to meet those deadlines and make that money, and you know, but the world needs people at the levels that you're at, so enjoy. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, that's encouraging to know. So thank you for that. I think about the work I do is very much around helping people with an interest in you. I have a purpose and my purpose, actually, I just create the word to inspire. So it's interesting you've got that word, inspire, there, because there's a whole load of words that come beyond that, but I just say it's my purpose to inspire. And it's all about inspiring others to achieve what they're truly capable of doing. Because to me, I think as a coach, I have spent 25 years personally developing myself and there's a lot of learning I've been on and it's really interesting you said they're about you know people don't get it and I think there's there is a journey so so we want to encourage other people to go there but we've got to recognize and meet people where they're at because they can't make that leap sometimes and that's not a not a fault of anybody to just we've got to manage their beliefs and when you said about shining the mirror up to people sometimes they people they've got to see the mirror of where they are Sharon Spano: Mm-hmm. Phil Rose: but also understand there's other ways of doing things if it's appropriate for them. And that's really important. Sharon Spano: Right, because you can't, going back to stages, you don't skip stages. You could move up and down that ladder, that visual ladder, if you will, but you're not gonna go from like an expert to a strategist. Phil Rose: Yeah, in one go. That's interesting. Sharon Spano: You've got to, you know, it's developmental, what we call developmental movement, developmental shifts. So I know when I'm working with the client, you probably do too. You'll hear them, oh my God, they've had an aha. They've seen something differently. I call that a developmental shift. They've expanded their thinking, their understanding in a moment based on something you've asked them to do or a conversation. That's why I'm very clear that when people are feeling stuck, they need someone to Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: hold up that mirror like you or I because we're gonna see and hear things that they cannot see or hear for themselves yet. Phil Rose: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, that's what I said. Sharon Spano: I mean, you and I have had coaching. We've done that work with other players to help us develop, right? Everybody, you I you don't go out and be a Michael Jordan on the basketball court. You have a coach that there, you know, he may have had talent, I'm sure he did to start with, but he had someone that taught him how to do the game, how to play. So. Phil Rose: Thank Phil Rose: You gotta get a coach. Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah, yeah, really. I think that's so true. I still come back, you know, the best investment I ever made was getting a coach and I've had coaches ever since. And I think I go through different coaches for different times. And my last coach was very much translational. And I worked with Chris Joseph to help me move things forward. And it was because I needed that at the time. And I might circle back to him at some stage, but that was what I needed at that time. So Sharon, this has been a wonderful conversation. If you could go back and give the young Sharon some advice. Sharon Spano: Right. Phil Rose: What would that be if you, with what you know now with that wonderful world of hindsight, what's the advice you would give the young Sharon in LA or beyond that some advice? What would they say? Sharon Spano: Mm. Sharon Spano: think I would have told her even though I'm not sure she would have been at that time, but I think I would wanted her to believe that she was enough. Because I was such that achiever that needed another degree, needed another lesson, needed another seminar. I'm always striving, striving, striving. It's only been in the last two years where I finally settled in. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: to believe that I am enough. know enough. I have a lot to offer and share based on the trajectory of my own life. And it's a good feeling. It's sort of like, I don't know what the terminology is, but there's a level of wisdom now that I'm comfortable with, I enjoy, but I don't feel the need to really be out there in the way that I used to. Like, I'm not doing as much social media. not, you know, I like doing the podcast because I love meeting people like you and I love having people like you on my own show. I love that whole venue, but I'm not striving. I'm more in a state of being now than I am striving. I'm comfortable where I am. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Hmm. Yeah, that's really interesting. Phil Rose: Yeah, and I think that's a really powerful message in a state of being. I think there's really a big message in that that sense. So thank you. If people wanted to go and take some practical steps to do more of what we've talked about now, and apart from having a coach, which we'd always recommend, what's the type of thing people need to do to reclaim their presence, develop their purpose, and find that peace, and realize they're enough themselves in a nutshell? What are the things they need to do? Sharon Spano: Yeah. Well, certainly I would love them to go take the leaders edge that we mentioned earlier on my website, just to give them a sense of where they might be from a stage perspective and to know that there's hope there wherever they are. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: But you know, what's so beautiful about this time in our world, I think it's the most interesting time in all of humanity because we have, we're now entering the age of knowledge. We're beyond the age of information. We are now in the age of knowledge. And there is so much out there. I mean, especially with chat. know, I have a joke that I talk more to chat than my own husband. But you know, you can find out anything. Literally anything and and and just you know, whatever you're seeking you can get out there and ask the questions and get the information and and you know get pointed in the right direction and then if you're stuck, you know, you can research who's the best person for me out there and and interview coaches interview, know, you know, that's the thing today You don't have to just you know, you can go buy a good referral obviously but interview listen to the podcast and figure out you know, who do I need? Phil Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Sharon Spano: to walk alongside me. I don't see myself as just a coach. I see myself as a hybrid. I'm really a mentor. I'm a teacher. I'm a coach. You know, I don't just listen, although I do a lot of that, but I teach as well because I feel like, and I'm sure you do too, like if I know something that I know my client needs to understand, why would I sit there and just keep asking questions, hope they figure it out? Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah. Sharon Spano: I know already here's a framework that can help you see things differently or behave differently in your life. So I do, I have a very systematic process where I'm coaching, teaching, you know, all those things. And we move in and out of that process. you you look for the, you mentioned you, had different types of coaches. I think I have two and, you know, what is the type of support, whatever that is that you need right now, you may need therapy, you know, you may not need. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: So powerful. Phil Rose: Yeah. Phil Rose: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's powerful. Sharon, thank you. It's been an amazing conversation. There's lots more in there. I'd love to find out more as we go forward, you know, in terms of Leaders Edge. I wish you luck with Unstuck and Obstacle Leader. I think that's a great transition in your podcast as well. Look forward to listening to that when that comes out as well. And I think I'd advise people to go and take the Leaders Edge quiz to understand a bit about who they are a bit more, find coaching and find out their own centre of gravity is. Dr. Espanol, thank you for your time. It's been great conversation and yeah, I appreciate your time and energy. Thank you. Sharon Spano: Thank you, I appreciate the conversation as well. Phil Rose: Thanks. Phil Rose: So what is it you take from the conversation with Dr. Sharon Spano? What are the key messages you need to go away with? And I say need to go away with, because we all need to go away with something. Her words around being enough, her advice should give the younger her. It's really interesting because I think when I look back over the previous podcasts over the last six years, that message has come up so many times. So I wonder what is it you can take? As always, ask yourself that same question. What do you need to start doing? What do you need to stop doing? What do need to continue doing? And as you plan out your time, where can you think about time in a different way? Do you notice yourself in a scarce mindset of time? Or do you always have an abundant mindset? Thinking about money, do you have that scarcity or abundance mindset there? Are you able to make money when you need it? Do you see money as a good thing? Or do you see it as that root of all evil that Sharon talks about? I wonder what it is for you. As always, I'd love to hold you to account, but we can't do it to everyone. But if you do need help, please reach out. My name is Phil Rose. It's philadigniumconsult.com. We're here to help. Sharon had her purpose around inspiring people, and that's what we do. So if we can inspire you to step up, do things differently, and achieve your true potential, let us know. Please let us know your feedback. And as always, feel free to send this to other people that you believe will benefit from this conversation. Without that conversational message, we can't get a message out. So please let other people know so they can benefit and learn the knowledge that you've got. Because through this we can make a big change. We can help you scale your life and your business. And together that becomes a better thing for us all. Good luck and enjoy the journey and be in touch when you need. ======================================================================== SEO & DISCOVERABILITY ======================================================================== For use in episode pages, blog posts, show notes, and publishing platforms. Keywords -------- Sharon Spano The Pursuit of Time and Money Sparks by Ignium podcast Phil Rose podcast scarcity and abundance mindset emptiness of success human developmental stages executive coaching time integration radical abundance Leaders Edge quiz entrepreneurial burnout purpose and fulfillment work-life balance imposter syndrome leadership AI-Optimised Semantic Keywords ------------------------------ - why high achievers feel empty even when they have everything - the difference between scarcity and abundance mindset in business - how human developmental stages shape your relationship with time and money - why fear-based financial decisions are not really decisions at all - what radical abundance means and how to cultivate it - why work-life balance is the wrong goal and time integration is better - the achiever stage of human development and entrepreneurial burnout - how childhood beliefs about money hold leaders back - I am enough as a daily leadership practice - how to find your centre of gravity using adult development frameworks - why feeling stuck in life may mean you are growing into a later stage - the love of money vs money itself — correcting the root of all evil myth Long-Tail Keywords (Great for Blog Posts, Episode Pages, and Social) -------------------------------------------------------------------- - how do I stop feeling empty even though my business is successful - what are the 12 stages of human development and which one am I at - how to overcome childhood scarcity beliefs about money as an entrepreneur - what is time integration and why is it better than time management - how to build a purpose-driven business after personal loss - what is the Leaders Edge quiz and how does it help entrepreneurs - how to stop the infinite to-do list from burning you out - how to help visionary entrepreneurs stop overwhelming their teams ======================================================================== END OF TRANSCRIPT DOCUMENT Sparks by Ignium Podcast | sparksbyignium.transistor.fm Host: Phil Rose | igniumconsult.com ========================================================================