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Anja: Hello.
Joining me today is Elle.
Elle is the organizer of women in Bitcoin Sydney.
She's a Gen Z Bitcoin, and today she's here to share her perspective.
Welcome to Honest Money El
El: Thank you so much for having me, Anya.
Um, I'm super excited to dive into what Bitcoin means for Gen Z. What stands
in the way of Gen Z Bitcoin adoption.
Also, I'm really keen to talk about, um, my work at Women in Bitcoin,
Sydney and the type of, uh, attitudes and sentiment toward Bitcoin I've
seen throughout my attendees.
Love it.
But before we dive into those topics, I'm very curious to
know about your origin story.
How did you get into Bitcoin?
So, I got into Bitcoin when I was about 20.
I basically, I've always been a really, really good saver.
Um, and I was working intermittently from when I was about 13.
So I'd saved up, you know, I'd saved up some money.
And I saw it just slipping through my fingers with inflation.
Um, and so when I was about 20, I was looking for alternatives.
I was looking into property in Australia because this is something we as
Australians, but of course as young people as well, are told, um, to work
towards, to get on the property ladder and build your wealth in that manner.
Anyway, I was looking into it and I wasn't particularly
satisfied with what I was seeing.
I wasn't satisfied with, uh, the type of risk that I would have to
take on, and I also wasn't sure if I wanted to live in a property or if
I wanted to rent it out and all the tax implications that come with it.
Um, and around this time I was introduced to Bitcoin through someone in the
space, and I was kind of more passively listening for a few months, but something
about it really piqued my interest.
I couldn't tell you exactly what it was.
I would like to think it was because I was really kind of fleshing out my own,
um, political position at the time, and I was leaning much more toward freedom.
And Bitcoin really does align with freedom minded individuals and, uh, like
freedom centered political positions.
So I guess that in conjunction with probably everything else and the pressure
of, uh, the cost of living in Australia and in Sydney where I am especially,
uh, really pushed me toward seeking an alternative solution to housing.
And that happened to come in the form of Bitcoin.
After passively listening, I decided to do some research into it.
I initially approached it from much more of a political angle rather than focusing
on the more technical side of Bitcoin.
And for me, that was actually kind of.
It was really, really good.
But I did find that a lot of the communication in the Bitcoin
space was highly technical, which is not what I was interested in.
So I did have to do a bit of digging for, uh, this information, but I watched,
or I listened to the What is Money show from, uh, Robert Breedlove, and I read,
um, the Bitcoin standard, and I was also reading at the time various, uh,
economic books and various political books that really aligned with, um,
really radical self-responsibility and the separation of money and state.
All of this accumulated to me understanding the problem,
understanding why Bitcoin could be the solution, and I was already
in a position where I had money.
I wanted to invest in something, so I put some skin in the game and that made me.
Do more research a lot faster, made me understand things a lot better.
And then within a matter of months, I was pretty much completely orange
peeled and I became a Bitcoin.
That's my origin story.
Anja: I love it.
I love it.
And there's so many angles that we can take this conversation in.
I am curious now in hindsight, do you think it was a good decision
to choose Bitcoin over property?
El: Yes.
1 million times.
Yes, I do.
I think, I think in so many different ways, it was much better for me to
choose Bitcoin over property primarily because I didn't have to take out,
um, debt to purchase any Bitcoin.
I could purchase Bitcoin with the money that I had, and I didn't
have to take on that excess risk.
I could also purchase Bitcoin.
Like whatever time of day I wanted to, whatever time of week I wanted to,
I didn't have to wait for aside for it from initial, like KYC approval.
And then occasionally my bank would block me.
Aside from that, I didn't have to wait for, um, like massive approval
for, for that you would have to wait for if you're buying property.
Uh, I could also buy a fraction of Bitcoin if I wanted to.
I could buy anywhere from $5 worth of Bitcoin if I wanted to DCA, my daily
coffee order, or I could buy a hundred thousand dollars if I wanted to.
And this was no problem with housing.
This is very, very different.
Of course, you can't really buy a singular room in a house.
You can't buy a fraction of a house or a fraction of an apartment.
You have to go all in and hope that it works out.
Um, also in terms of my.
Capital growth.
It is done exponentially better in Bitcoin than it would've done in a singular,
probably very small, given the fact that I would've purchased property at 19 or 20.
Very small house.
Bitcoin has done so much better than that.
And with it, you get, um, the security of, of privacy.
You get to know that your Bitcoin is not going to be seized by
anyone or any, any government.
Um, and it's, it's, it's censorship resistant as well, which is really
important for me when I am very vocal about what is going on in
the political climate in the world.
I do fear that down the line, people who speak up in the manner that I do face
the risk of being censored financially.
And if you have a physical property, this is.
Relatively easy to seize.
Also, if you have money in the bank, as we know, this is incredibly easy to
seize and it will be done at some point.
Bitcoin gives me that peace of mind that my money, my capital is safe
and the only person who can move it is me when I choose to do it.
So yes, to answer your question, I am so, so glad that I chose Bitcoin over
property for uh, uh, a million reasons.
Yeah,
Anja: yeah.
And I love that you said that you were a saver.
'cause that's very much something I can relate to as well.
Like I always thought saving money was so underrated.
And growing up in Australia and being schooled here, I remember very early
on being taught about like budgeting and saving and you know, keeping a
budget, knowing how much you can spend and not spending more than you save,
and not spending more than you earn.
But nowhere in that conversation until very late in my life.
Until I discovered Bitcoin, did the, like, the, the theme of inflation and
Australian dollar debasement come into the picture because you're not taught this.
And it's almost like you are a fish swimming in a pond, not knowing
that the water is all around you.
Like where's the water?
It's like everywhere.
And that kind of what the debt, um, debt-based system feels like.
We are so deeply ingrained in it that it's not even like a question.
Um, we don't question how abnormal that whole system is where you have to go
into debt in order to get ahead in life.
It just seems bizarre, um, when you kind of zoom out.
This wasn't a reality that humanity had to deal with until relatively recently.
And, um, I, I love teaching people the history of money more than
anything because it really opens their mind to other possibilities
that they didn't know were possible.
'cause we're all born into the system.
I had no idea.
Like, um,
El: yeah, no, that is, that is so true.
Um, like the person I think who instilled this value of saving
in me was definitely my mom.
She was, was, and still is a very, very good saver.
But beyond that, she never really had, um, an understanding of inflation
or, you know, how much your money needs to work to actually outpace
inflation or currency debasement.
So she always had this idea that, um, if you put your money in something
like a term deposit, which could yield maybe 4%, um, a year or 4%
over the, whatever term you choose.
But that would, that would be fine and that would outpace inflation
because what she would see on the news is what two 3% CPI, and that's,
that would be her, her yardstick to measure the growth of her capital.
You actually look into it.
And if you're putting your money somewhere where it's growing 4% a year, you are
still lagging behind, as I'm sure you are all over as many other bitcoiners.
CPI is not an adequate way to measure like real cost of living inflation at all.
And yet it is the tool that is used to adjust wages or,
uh, a adjust interest rates.
But it's, it's a completely flawed tool.
It's also something that informs how people save and what people deem as,
as an okay return of, um, investment.
4% a year in, uh, a term deposit is nothing.
You know, we can estimate that inflation in Australia is maybe
around eight or 9% a year.
So you're actually losing money even though.
In theory, you're gaining 4%, you are actually losing like three to 5% a year.
Yeah.
And this is something that a lot of people don't understand.
And my mom bless her, really good at saving, but she, she did not
understand this and so she couldn't pass along that really vital information
to me, which is something I found out like blessed be early in life.
I was about 19, 20 when I found all this out so I could change it very rapidly.
But a lot of people don't know.
A lot of people will never find out, and instead they're just unfortunately going
to have to keep working so incredibly hard to just lose money year on year.
And all of this, mind you, you are losing money while this whole
time the assets that you want to purchase, say a house to live in,
for example, are increasing in price.
So the, the distance between you and home ownership is exponentially widening.
And it's just, it's something that people don't understand.
It's not taught, it's typically not passed down generationally
because people just don't know.
It's not taught in school.
At least not well, and not in my experience, it's not taught in university.
In fact, the opposite is taught in university typically with this very sian
outlook on the economy where inflation is deemed to be absolutely necessary.
Um, so what, what do people do?
They have to spend tens of hours or thousands of hours researching
finance and researching the economy and researching history.
A lot of people do not have the capacity to do that, and nor
do they really have the time.
But you need to do that.
Otherwise you're not going to win in this very rigged game.
Anja: Yeah, and they shouldn't have to.
El: It's, it's crazy to me.
Anja: It, it really is.
No, and I absolutely love as well that you know.
You mentioned you got, you learned, saving from your mom.
Um, I think that is such a beautiful thing to save and it just speaks to
humanity like in our human action and human behavior, the fact that we as,
as species always look to the future.
So whether you are pickling vegetables, to have them enjoy them in the winter,
whether you are saving money to, to, to, you know, for something, um, spending in
the future, like it's just such a normal.
Part of life.
And it's something that has kind of been taken away from so silently
without us necessarily even knowing.
'cause I have heard of inflation earlier on before I discovered
Bitcoin, but I never questioned it.
I never questioned it.
Two or 3%.
Um, that's advertised as like a target, where it comes from.
Why is it set that way?
How did they come up with this figure?
Like they can't even answer it.
Um, nobody has the answer for it because it's completely arbitrary.
And yeah, I just, I wanna come back to a world where savings are great again.
And I also think this is a very feminine thing.
I wonder as well if like, women being gatherers, just like gathering
things, like we like saving our nuts.
We like saving our Bitcoin, we like blueberries.
I don't know, we like to gather things like.
El: No, I think that's, I think that is really, really true.
And I think women typically, once we decide to do something, um, in
terms of our personal finances, because we are more risk averse than
men, we typically stick with it and we stick with it quite strongly.
So if we can eventually, you know, in my utopia, um, get all the
ladies in the world to become sat stackers, this would be fantastic.
Because they're not, they're not really going to, to change from that
because the risk is just too high.
Um, so yeah, I think you're completely, I think you're completely correct.
Saving and retaining what you have is something that is very feminine.
I do think this could be extrapolated to women's involvement in Bitcoin,
and I, I do think that if women get over that initial hurdle or
presumption of risk in Bitcoin.
Then they will be probably some of the most like hardy, um, uh,
balanced bitcoiners that there could be because they're just not going
to want to change from that and, um, incur new or different risk.
Anja: I actually heard from Andrew Page and we had this discussion when we stopped
recording our podcast, but I absolutely love what he taught me and coming
from him, I do believe this is true.
So we spoke about risk and, and investing in general, and he said he's come
across studies that show that women are better investors than men overall.
And I think that partly comes to, you know, comes to do with like
less risk taking and just finding a consistent thing and not trying
to, you know, take on a lot of risk.
Like for example, before I was into Bitcoin, I was s and p 500
all the way broad based index fund.
You know, I'm not trying to look at individual stocks.
I'm not trying to risk my money, I just want something that works.
Warren Buffet style set and forget.
So what, what I love that he said is that overall studies show women are better,
um, investors, but the best investors are.
Male and female, like couples essentially doing it together.
'cause then they leverage the best of both worlds.
Like, I don't know, safety and risk-taking.
And I guess they discuss those strategies together.
So I think it would be really powerful to have more women, um, you know, who
are coupled with Bitcoiners and who might think, you know, their partners
are absolutely nuts for, for taking a risk on Bitcoin, understand this thing
and work together to actually really create true generational family wealth.
Because that's, that's something that, yeah, is my, um, utopian moment.
El: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think of course like if you combine the mind of, uh, a somewhat responsible man
and the mind of a somewhat responsible woman, I think together they're going to
initiate a better outcome than if it were just, um, them as single actors alone.
So it does give me quite a bit of hope for the future.
And of course, with that as well comes healthier families.
Um.
This is something I, I really hope for in, in my future.
And I, I do think that there is a lot of merit in taking advice from,
uh, your partner of the opposite sex.
Uh, in, in both ways.
I think women really benefit from a man's perspective, and I
think men also can really, really benefit from a woman's perspective.
And I guess sort of like with, unfortunately as we were talking
before the show with, uh, the advent of modern day feminism that silences
the difference or the, the innate differences between men and women,
we kind of lose this art of coming together and producing something even
better than we could, uh, individually.
But I think it's something that shouldn't be lost because it is
something so beautiful and very, very powerful as well that I would really
like to see in the Bitcoin space.
And I do know on Twitter or XI have seen a handful of accounts being run by.
Partners like husbands and wives or boyfriends and girlfriends in
the Bitcoin space, um, which I think is really quite beautiful.
And I, I think it's awesome because they're bringing in two different
perspectives that can converge on the same sort of opinion on, on
the world, but bring very different backgrounds and input to it.
Anja: Yeah, and I agree.
I, I remember, I think last year I posted randomly a poll asking, um, Bitcoin a
couples, I was like, do you guys argue about money or do you just stack in peace?
And Stack in peace was definitely the, the one that was voted on by the majority.
So, um, it is, yeah, it, again, it, that speaks to the quality of money itself.
The fact that removes that conflict between couples.
You know, there's a lot to be said about that.
Um, but I'm really curious to know about, you know, your,
uh, women in Bitcoin meetups.
What, what prompted you to actually start this, um, organization?
El: So, it was a range of things that prompted me to start it.
Um, primarily it was my own experience entering into the Bitcoin space.
I have been met with some of the most intelligent and fantastic
people in the space, uh, especially when it comes to in person meetups.
So in Sydney there are a handful of them.
Um, and then there is like the big city meetup, which, uh, Ken Ghana, I
think up to even 60, 60 guests every month, which is, which is quite a lot.
That being said, these spaces are often populated primarily by men.
And this is fine, like, as I've said other times when I've addressed women
in Bitcoin and why it's important to have this women's only space.
I don't see anything wrong with having a space that is populated primarily by men.
The only issue here is personal feelings and experiences.
As a young woman entering this space without a background in any sort of
finance, it's very, very intimidating.
So when I first entered the space, I was, I was quite shy and I was quite,
um, meek and mild, and I did a lot of listening, which was actually really
good for me instead of just talking and not actually taking any information in.
Um, but when I got to the point where I was still, still very much a newbie,
but new enough where I wanted to have these conversations, um, I found it
difficult not because of the men, just because of my own, um, my own
varsity toward it and toward, um.
Going up to a random man in a room full of other men and talking to him
about Bitcoin and my thoughts on it.
Obviously I got over this and I do that now, but that was probably the
spring that really pushed me into creating women in Bitcoin Sydney.
Um, and this sentiment that is shared throughout many of my attendees
that it is, it is difficult to break into this male dominated
space, um, is, is very, very common.
So when I started women in Bitcoin Sydney a few months ago, I decided I want to
start this as a really beginner, friendly sort of experience or sort of group.
Um, so I. I advertised it everywhere.
I advertised it on Facebook groups.
I advertised it on like women's WhatsApp groups that I'm a part of.
Um, Facebook Messenger groups, Instagram, Twitter, uh, meetup.
The, the app meetup.com, I think is how it's called.
I advertised it everywhere I could, and I actually got some
really, really great responses.
And a lot of the women who attended the first meetup were from, uh, my
efforts of advertising it over a broad range of, I guess, societies.
Um, a problem that I've run into recently, unfortunately, is that I have been blocked
from many of these online spaces, which is really sad because I think people
see the word Bitcoin and they see, you know, a women's Bitcoin group, and they
somehow think it's predatory and a scam.
It, it's really sad because clearly it's neither predatory nor a scam.
But that is something that I have to grapple with and I'm going to have to, uh,
rejig the way that I advertise my group.
But yeah, for now, typically we get maybe four to seven attendees per month.
Like it's one meeting per month.
Um, most of the time they are brand new to Bitcoin or have just spent, you know,
a little bit of time researching Bitcoin.
So it's really exciting to get to go over the very basic principles of Bitcoin.
What is money, what is the problem that we are facing, and how Bitcoin can
liberate us from this or, or help us on our way out from the fiat system.
Uh, and I've had really, really good feedback from it as well, uh, in person.
And then also, uh, I issue an anonymous survey to make sure I
actually am on the right track.
And I've, I've only had glowing reviews, the women.
Really emphasize how they enjoy this as a soft launch into Bitcoin and
a really like safe space to express their concerns, their thoughts, their
desires as women, um, in terms of like what Bitcoin could offer them.
And yes, this, this very well-rounded, um, and shared narrative that a women's
only space has been nothing but positive for them because they feel so much less
intimidated and they feel so much more open to speaking about these things
that we as women specifically face.
So, you know, motherhood or, um, the taking time off work
for, for, for children or superannuation after motherhood.
O obviously a lot of it revolves around these innate biological differences
between men and women, which inform our financial positions in life and
also what we choose to do for work.
And look, I'm sure at other Sydney Bitcoin meetups, these sort of topics would be
embraced with open arms, but in some ways they can be quite sensitive topics.
So it is very, very good to have that individual space, that space that is,
you know, designated for women and women alone to be able to flesh this
out and talk about it with other women who probably have experienced the
same thing, or me, for example, I'm looking toward a very similar future.
Yeah.
Anja: Yeah.
I, I love what, how you described that, and I can certainly relate to a lot
of what you said, because that was my own experience coming into this space.
And you know, from, from day one, all I can say is the
men have been so supportive.
Like I've not had a single person in our community make me feel dumb, make
me feel like I should be intimidated.
But even with that, like it's not really about how they were making me feel.
It's how I felt inside.
And like I can relate to you being meek and quiet.
'cause I remember one of the first meetups that I went to in Sydney
was when Mark Moss, all people was going through town, he had just
ridden motorbikes up in K York.
And he was like, I'm actually flying through Sydney.
You wanna do like an impromptu meetup?
So JP pulled together everyone last minute.
It wasn't a standard monthly meetup, it was like an out
of the, out of the box one.
And it drew quite a large crowd.
Um, a lot of people that are really well known globally came to that event because.
It's Mark Moss, right?
So, um, and I was such a new, I had no idea.
And I, I showed up there and Mark said hi to jp and then he shook my hand.
I'm just like, oh, hi.
I am just, I'm just a regular person.
He is like, yeah, that's fine.
Like, that's what I'm here for, kind of thing.
But I, I had no idea.
I was just like this celebrity status guy.
I'm like, I'm not the organizer, I'm just a normal person.
He is like, I'm literally here to say hi to everyone but you.
You don't know what you don't know.
And having that first step in be like an easy point of entry.
Says a lot because a lot of people then, a lot of the women that come
might come to women in Bitcoin meetup first go on very easily to come to all
the future combined meetups without a problem because they understand that
the community is extremely welcoming.
You can ask dumb questions, no one's going to make you feel stupid.
But I do remember, and I still, I still get that feeling sometimes.
Just recently when I was in Palm Cove, we went to bit devs and
that's a highly technical meeting.
I mean, I find cryptography interesting, but I need like a basic bitch, a
level understanding of it to get into not something highly complex.
And I remember remember sitting there going, what are they talking about?
No idea.
It was highly technical and they were clearly done a lot more research about
all the Bitcoin improvement proposals.
Ahead of the, the meeting so they could ask all the good questions.
And I was just there like beer in the headlights, had no idea.
Um, but I guess that's all part of the journey.
Yeah.
Well I guess everyone's like somewhere
El: Yeah.
That, that is very, very true.
And in saying that, I think a lot of the people who are in the Bitcoin space
have come from a background of, um, computer science or traditional finance
things that give you a little bit more understanding, initial understanding
and leeway to be able to communicate the ideas that Bitcoin puts front and center.
Uh, whereas women typically don't come from these, uh, educational
or um, working backgrounds.
So I do think that in a way is also a reason why a women in Bitcoin meet is
good because you get women from careers that are very, very different to.
Perhaps more of the men at the general meetups.
Um, but I also make sure to really express to the ladies who come along
to my meetups that the general bitcoin space is so welcoming to everyone,
but of course to women as well.
Like people are so open to anyone new who wants to come in.
Anyone who has what might be what, you know, you as a newbie might
think is a really stupid question.
The Bitcoin space is so welcoming to all types of people, no matter your
background, no matter your understanding.
And I really want to continue to tell the women at my meetup, like this
meetup exists as a soft launch into the greater and wider bitcoin space.
I, I love, like when people come back to my meetup and uh, recurrent attendees,
but you know, there is really some merit in also involving yourself in.
The, the wider Bitcoin space because you get, you get other opinions
and you get to meet other people and expand your, expand your circle
and you can network if you want.
Uh, so I make sure to really ingrain in understanding that these
general Bitcoin meetups or the Bitcoin community at large that is.
Very male dominated is not something to be scared of.
And this space doesn't exist because that is a bad community.
This space exists because we have typically different concerns and I
want to be able to softly push women if they're interested into the wider
community so we can start to have open discourse and open dialogue about the
concerns that women primarily face with
Anja: Bitcoin.
I love it.
And I also love that you do a survey that is just such a nice touch and,
and yeah, it just goes to show that.
Human-centered approach that women take to things.
So I'll, I love that you do that and I think we should implement
that as well locally here as well.
I'll speak to the organizers 'cause um, we do get a lot of new visitors
each month and the Bitcoin scene here in Northern Rivers is really thriving.
Um, we do have a very good ratio of women to men.
Like it's pretty much 50 50 and we get at least 30 attendees each month.
Yeah.
Which is, which is great.
Like we're growing too big for our, um, venue that some of us
now do what is called Lobby Con.
So we just hang out in the lobby and have a discussion while the rest of
the people go to the main presentation.
Um, I learned this terminology from Bitcoiners who go to like Prague and
Vegas and all the big events is a thing.
Um, I wanted to know more about the women that, um, come to these meetups.
Uh, what is the sentiment?
That they carry when they first walk in on Bitcoin.
Like what are their friends saying?
What is their family saying?
Where are we at with Bitcoin adoption in Sydney?
El: Oh, that, that's a very large question, uh, for me to answer
with my very small sample size.
But I will try.
So a lot of the women who come through, firstly, a lot of them are, uh, I would
say probably anywhere from 40 to 60.
That's the typical age range that I'm seeing, which did actually surprise me.
I thought I would see more women around my age in their mid to
early or late twenties, just in their twenties in general.
But no, and I actually have only had maybe two or three women
in my age range actually show up amongst all of the meetings.
So that is something that surprised me.
The.
Average woman in Bitcoin goer is a woman in her forties up to sixties who is
either very curious about Bitcoin and has already kind of done her due diligence
in terms of understanding the perceived risks of Bitcoin that people bring in.
So I typically don't actually have to kind of tease that out and really preach
to them why Bitcoin is not a scam.
They've usually already done that work themselves, but surprisingly what
a lot of them say is that they have been the one out of their partnership.
So between them and their husband, they've been the one who is much more interested
in Bitcoin and they've been having to try to convince their husband to get on board.
Which, which surprised me because as we were discussing before, usually
it's like the opposite way around.
Usually it's like this crazy husband who's trying to convince his wife, who thinks
he's nuts to get on board with Bitcoin.
But from my experience at the women in Bitcoin meets, um, I
guess it just attracts a different type of woman to usual maybe.
Um, and yeah, these women are the, the leaders in terms of
their household finances, and so they're the ones really trying to
orange pill their, their husbands.
And from what I've heard so far, usually the husbands are, are on board with it.
Um, I know a lot of them have like set up nodes and their husbands have helped, but
maybe not really been all in on it, but have helped because they support their
wives and they see the massive payoffs obviously, that they have incurred as a
household, uh, by investing in bitcoin.
Um, so yeah, the, the, the wives that are coming tend to be the leaders of the
household in terms of finance and in terms of understanding Bitcoin and being the
driver to adopting that as a household.
Yeah, I think that probably covers what I've seen, um, as in the trends of Bitcoin
adoption in the women who have come to my group, a lot of them are the leaders
of the household finances as opposed to being or as opposed to just, you
know, handing it all off to the men in the household to, to, to take care of.
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Anja: Yeah.
It's interesting because when I worked for a utility company,
um, a few years ago, like about a decade ago now, um, in marketing.
Women were our target audience because even though they might not have been
the breadwinner in their family home, they were the one who managed finances.
So I wonder if that's kind of also the angle where they're coming from.
Like that interesting money, um, stems from that.
It's interesting because yeah, so far I've only met one woman who
came to the Bitcoin meetup, um, in Northern Rivers, and she drove down
from Brisbane and that was her story.
Like she was a libertarian.
Uh, I, I love her story actually.
She was a bit of a hero of ours when, when she told us about her origin story.
Yeah, libertarian.
She studied political science naturally.
You know, the university that she went to didn't teach libertarian, so she went down
the rabbit hole herself and she's like, this is actually a really interesting
political science like to to, to explore.
And a worldview and she just started learning more about it.
And that's kind of how she came into Bitcoin.
And yeah, her partner, her husband thought she was absolutely nuts.
It wasn't until Bitcoin hit a hundred thousand, he's like, okay,
I think you're onto something.
He's like, I think you're, is like finally trusting her.
It is like, let me look into this.
It is like, okay, I see.
I see it now.
And, and I love that story.
'cause usually, like you said, it's, it's the inverse.
Um, but yeah, I love that we're seeing more and more of this.
Um, are there partners on board yet or are they still a bit skeptical?
El: I think from what I've heard at least, they are mostly on board and very similar
to the story that you just told me now.
It's usually in relation to the price of Bitcoin.
Like I said before, once they see their household net worth increase.
A hundred percent over two years.
They, they tend to, um, at least begin to want to understand it.
So, um, at the very least, they're kind of apathetic to it.
But I think in most cases they really have begun to get on board with,
um, some of the women who attend my meets and start to realize that,
you know, their wife isn't crazy.
She actually is just way ahead of the curve and they should, they
should, um, pick up the ball on that.
Anja: It's interesting.
I love hearing like adoption stories.
Another thing that I've, I've noticed and observed and heard quite a bit in
Australia, especially the last five years, is there's been a wave of accountants
and tax accountants getting curious about Bitcoin and it comes through their
clients because they might have a clients that think, oh, this guy's a bit nuts,
you know, uh, getting into Bitcoin.
But then year in year they're seeing the returns.
They're like, okay.
This isn't going away.
This thing keeps going up and down.
It has four year cycles, but it just keeps, you know, getting a high low
each time and it keeps going up.
So yes, it's volatile, but there's something to it.
It's not like the price isn't completely random.
Um, and, and yeah, they, they end up getting through that way.
And then you have a whole bunch of like very orange peel tax accountants
all around Australia and lawyers and just regular accountants.
So yeah, I would love to know from you is like obviously you're a Gen Z and
you organize women in Bitcoin meetups.
Do you have different approaches for how you explain and
pitch Bitcoin to each group?
El: Yes, yes.
100 times, yes, I do, and it is absolutely necessary if you want to be able to
accurately convey a message and also not lose someone's interest while doing that.
So for women, I will slightly adjust it depending on the
cohort that I get that month.
But typically I find the most effective way to introduce it because these
women are a bit older and they've had time in the workforce, they've had
time, um, saving, and they've had a little bit more time than maybe my
peers to understand the wider economy.
Um, I find it the best to introduce to them what the problem is, how it's
going to get worse, because often these women have children or will have
children and are looking toward this future, the, um, future world that
their children are going to grow up in.
So what the problem is, how it's going to get worse and how
Bitcoin is a solution to that.
And this sort of architecture of how I introduce people to Bitcoin
as the solution to the problem is.
Widely how I do it with everyone.
It's just, um, on the more minute scale, slightly different.
So with the women in Bitcoin, I do it quite generally because it's,
it, it is all different women, but typically they're older and they have
a bit more of a wide understanding.
But then when it comes to Gen Z, I find it really crucial to approach
it from an angle that is able to understand and talk about and talk
with their political grievances.
Because that, I think is what is really pushing Gen Zed, um, into
different directions of change.
If, you know, if you've kept up with like my, my ex or my, um, my
TikTok, which is where I publish a lot of my political or Bitcoin
commentary, you would know like I'm.
All over this idea that Gen Z is really leaning much more left
these days, but it's not so simple.
And actually in Gen Z we see the biggest, um, divide of the sexes in terms of
their political, uh, persuasions.
So we see a lot of Gen Z men are leaning much more toward
radical right wing politics, or sometimes independent as well.
So you can think maybe libertarian, whereas Gen Z women are leaning much more
toward, um, uh, like leftist politics.
So I think it is really important to address the case for Bitcoin
on a case by case basis, depending on who you're talking to.
And I think a really big, um, hurdle in my way for introducing
Bitcoin to my peers and.
Often, mostly like Gen Z women is this sway very strongly toward the left leftist
politics and more socialist solutions.
Bitcoin obviously is like perfection of private property and like the
free market, at least in the, in the Bitcoin sphere itself.
And so trying to convince someone who has been preached to their whole educational
career and then between their friend group that this is actually evil private
property should be abolished and the state should be in control of the money supply.
It's quite a difficult sell, uh, if you're trying to offer
Bitcoin to them as a solution for well state involvement in money.
So for me, I am still, um, I guess fleshing out the exact
road that is best to take when.
Trying to orange pill or even just introduce the idea of Bitcoin to these
very leftist women of my generation.
But I do think it, the easiest way to do it, the most effective way to do it is
to really focus on the pain point that we are all admittedly feeling, which is
the complete debasement of our currency, the inflation that follows all of us.
Whether you live in Sydney or whether you live in, I don't know, broken
Hill, all of us are experiencing this pain, this cost of living crisis.
And this is something that is a very easy thing to focus on between groups
because we, we, we do all feel it.
The only difference is our opinion, our opinions on how to
change it or how to approach it.
So with, you know, women in my generation, my friends perhaps
who are very left-leaning, I try in a way to tell them, look.
The reason we are where we are is because state and money have been
combined and because our currency is just being completely, uh,
obliterated in terms of value.
And then briefly explain to them what that means without them losing interest.
Um, and explain why Bitcoin is a solution to that and why it's really important
that we focus on, uh, a money or a narrative that is separate from the
state in order to fix this problem.
Because the state is actually what has gotten us into this problem.
It is, it is admittedly very, very difficult.
And unfortunately I do find that a lot of my peers, given the nature of
education they've had at university and also just in high school, how
it's very much through a Marxist lens.
They're actually quite, um, against even hearing a different narrative.
If I am able to break through that initial barrier of them not wanting to
hear anything different to what they've been told, then it does give me space to
kind of maneuver in Bitcoin as a solution to the problem that we're all feeling.
But admittedly, it is very, very difficult, especially because we
are so divided as a generation.
And I do think this can go in, broadly speaking, one of two directions.
I think perhaps we could see such division and such struggle that it actually forces
us to all examine these alternatives to state control, um, namely Bitcoin.
And we can all converge on this, uh, because we can all
agree that there is a problem.
It's like I said before, it's just how, how do we approach it?
How do we fix it?
And maybe with so much division and so much pressure.
We can all begin to understand that Bitcoin is the solution or it could
go in kind of the opposite direction, where we end up with so much division
that we are going to have a government that is on one of two extremes.
And I do think that it's more likely to be on the extreme or the radical left.
And I mean that's what we are seeing already.
We're seeing like restrictions on speech.
We're seeing like fundamental human rights, um, restrictions in Australia
and all of the Western world.
And with that comes state control, more further state
control over, uh, the economy.
And with that, we are just going to get poor and poorer.
The divide is going to get worse.
People are going to feel the pressure even more and advocate for even more
radical policy solutions to this.
That is the way that I hope we don't go down, but I do kind of see.
Given the climate that we're in at the moment, I do kind of see these as
the two only really viable solutions.
Either that there's so much pressure we somehow managed to converge on
Bitcoin, or there is so much pressure that we continue to just go in two
completely opposite directions.
I've gone on a bit of a tangent about
Anja: I love it.
My
El: thoughts on, um,
Anja: yeah.
El: Yeah, tangent.
Well, I think it is like overall, like what I was, I guess what I'm trying to get
to with that is, um, it's crucial that we address Bitcoin not only from a technical
standpoint, but also from a standpoint that is informed and understanding of
the current, um, political, social, and of course economic climate.
Because in Bitcoin we are very, very focused on the technicalities or
even sometimes the philosophy of it, but something a lot more palatable.
I think for Gen Z would be focusing on the immediate political climate,
and that I think is probably the best way to sell Gen Z, Bitcoin to Gen Z.
Anja: Yeah.
It's interesting, like, I mean, yeah, I love what you said
and it's such great insight.
Um, I definitely know from some other studies that I read when it
comes to things like employment, for example, for Gen Z, they're very
interested in not just the, the money that they're going to earn, but the
social and corporate responsibility that the company is engaged in.
Um, that's something that's very important to them.
So part of me, um, likes that there's this younger generation of, you know,
people who are politically engaged.
They do wanna know, um, they do care about things that are beyond them,
but it is also at the same time, very disheartening to hear, and I've seen
this as well, obs, observe, observe this through my own personal experience, is
people who just don't want to engage in discourse with ideas of views that are.
In contradiction or challenging to, to what they've been
taught or what they believe.
Um, because yeah, to me this is again, great feedback.
If you are triggered by something, I'm the kind of person I was like, I get curious
about, I was like, that's interesting.
This provoked it, something within me.
I wonder why.
Like, and I wanna know more about it.
Um, but I do find that a lot of people that are on the left tend to engage
in discourse or, or if they do engage, it get quite emotional quite quickly.
And this is something that I've observed with my family and friends.
So again, sample size is very small.
Um, but I think a lot of people are saying that recently.
And there was something that I read that was just stuck in my mind
and I don't know where I read it could have just been on Twitter.
Um, someone said that the right.
Feel that the left is misguided and the left feels that the right is evil.
Um, which is interesting because I think in the, in the recent years
as well, we've noticed a lot of violence coming from the left side.
And there was the, you know, recent, uh, police officer who, who made a statement
that very much went against the mainstream media narrative in terms of what the
cause of the violence was in some recent protests, um, that it was politically
driven and what side it came from.
So it's, it's just, yeah, I definitely see a lot of division and, and as much
as I want to talk about politics, I always find myself kind of self-censoring
because I'm afraid to trigger someone who might have different views and I
already have, um, just by talking about Bitcoin, I tend to trigger people.
Um.
Not that I say anything deliberately provocative, but even just the nature of
talking about money, it can be triggering for people what Bitcoin represents,
you know, something disruptive.
Um, something that goes against the status quo that a system
that they're familiar with.
Yeah.
So I, I can empathize with that, but it does also take a toll on me because
recently, for an example, there was someone in my life who was like, no,
I just don't wanna hear about Bitcoin.
I'm a brick and mortar person.
I don't care about it.
Um, I was like, okay.
So I just stopped talking about Bitcoin with this person, and
guess who brought it up yesterday?
And when Bitcoin dipped to 99,000, it was like, came across as a, a
statement like with a sense of like.
Smugness and like pride, like, haha, like your asset just dipped.
And I'm thinking in my head, like, I was laughing with my friends other
Bitcoiners over this dip were like, haha, Bitcoin's on sale because
that's what we psychopaths do.
Right?
But you know, I went away and I wasn't angry at this person
until later that I processed it.
And then I was thinking, wait a minute, if their house dropped overnight by
20, 30%, I would be a horrible person to come and rub that in their face.
But they feel very comfortable doing that to me.
And it's just like, I haven't done anything to this person.
But Bitcoin triggers them so much that they feel like they wanna like one up.
Me.
Like, come on, bro.
Like, are you for real?
That's my rant.
You can, you can, you can take over.
El: Over.
No, that's all right.
I think.
I, I, um, I agree.
I think it would be insanely rude for you or me or anyone else to go
and ridicule someone if they're, um, if where they store their
wealth dropped, you know, dropped.
Well, anything, it would be, it would be, it would be so rude to do that.
So, yes, I, I, I do think that speaks to the larger trend of once you're
involved in this Bitcoin space and everything that comes with it, politics
included, and an understanding of society and culture, um, that stems
from an understanding of Bitcoin.
I think it really does kind of lift the wool from your eyes.
And you can see through a lot of these, um, a lot of the ways that
people view the world now, that just seems so wrong, um, since we're
involved in Bitcoin and in a way it kind of feels like we can see through.
The bullshit.
I hope I can say that word.
Um,
Anja: yes, I swear.
El: And it feels like, okay,
Anja: Michael Bitcoin, he loves the fbo.
El: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
All right, good.
I feel, um, justified them.
Um, but Bitcoin kind of lifts the rose tinted glasses off your eyes and it allows
you to see the world in a lot more genuine and also a lot more of a critical way.
You know, we don't just accept these things that we're told anymore.
We actually go back to them and, and try to understand
them from this lens of Bitcoin.
In saying that, I also wanted to address, um, excuse me, your point
about, um, the like political.
Divide and how the left is viewed as misguided and the right is viewed as
as evil and how we have seen a lot more, um, left or leftist political
violence, especially in the us.
I do think it is really, um, important to weigh this up in a way that is
fair and a bit more perhaps accurate because the violence we are also
seeing, especially when it comes to, unfortunately in Australia,
ideologically motivated, um, terror plots, a lot of it is not just leftist.
A lot of it is very, very far right.
And that is what the, the message that I'm trying to get across is that
radicalization on either side is going to be at the detriment of greater society.
While, yes, as bitcoin, as a lot of us do, share this like, oh, the
lefties are, you know, crazy with their 8,000 genders and, um, and whatever
else they decide to believe in.
This is true.
They are crazy in that sense.
But I think it's crucial that we don't ignore the radicalization
on the other side, especially of Gen Z, um, in Australia and the
US and the greater Western world, um, or the western world at large.
Because by ignoring that, it allows more people to silently fall into it.
Which, like I said, like radical right wing is just as bad as, well, almost just
as bad, I would say as radical left wing.
Um, the effect on the individual and society is going to be terrible,
and I think it's, it is very, very crucial that we advocate against.
Um, right and left radicalization because they all lead down the same
path, which is state control and, uh, an impingement on personal freedoms.
So, yes, the left is nuts and we can agree that, you know, they,
they deny biology and they deny a widely accepted scientific fact.
At the same time, we should still acknowledge the fact that people
going down this other pathway are not going to balance things out.
It's just going to widen
Anja: right.
El: The divide.
And I think instead of going down these traditional pathways, yeah, instead of
going down these traditional pathways, it's best to forge one of our own.
And that's, uh, in things like, you know, more freedom minded, um, political
movements, uh, I mean, I don't wanna.
You know, preach to anyone what they absolutely have to believe.
You're free to believe what you want to believe, but I think the
best thing for society is if we are to value, um, personal freedoms,
protect personal freedoms, separate money and state and um, hold spending
to account all of these things.
Bitcoin wraps in a really, really nice bow and kind of does for us, which is
why I am really attracted to Bitcoin.
And it's also why I think if people understand what Bitcoin is, they
all start to see the bigger picture.
Whereas I came from a, you know, understanding this politics side of it and
then seeing how Bitcoin was the solution.
If people understand Bitcoin, they might start to see how the
rest of it is a problem and how Bitcoin is the solution to that.
Anja: Yeah.
And, and the other thing that I'm also very interested in is like
the whole concept of control.
Like people naturally want to control outcomes, um, or have predictable
outcomes in, in as much as possible because yeah, a lot of people can't
cope with change and can't cope with uncertainty, and that makes sense.
It's like a survival mechanism.
Um, so I can see why Bitcoin would yeah, stir discomfort.
Um, but then it is like, I also feel like there is so much within your
control and, and you do have a greater level of self-control with Bitcoin.
Um, so that's kind of a lens for me that I look at things.
Um, I would rather control my money myself and have a predictable issue
and schedule and a predictable supply cap that cannot be changed.
Over and above unelected officials making decisions that impact my financial
future, my children's financial future.
And there's no incentives tying them down to be responsible with that.
And I don't get a say, um, at all, and I don't even know what's happening
until those decisions are entirely made at their discretion, um, but impact
me and everyone else on a daily basis.
So, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that.
That was a little tangent.
Um,
El: yeah, no, I, I like, I like how you, I like how you bring that up.
I think a lot of people who gravitate toward Bitcoin are very similar thinkers
in terms of this sort of, uh, radical self-responsibility over their money.
Sadly not, not a, a large portion of society is that way,
at least not in my experience.
A lot of people, especially in my generation, where we have
grown up, um, in this state that.
You know, tends to take care of everything for us.
We can outsource that responsibility and thus we haven't been able to
practice it in our day to day.
Uh, this is something like, this is a personality trait that I see very
strongly reflected in Bitcoin spaces and also in my women and Bitcoin spaces.
This idea that it is really, really empowering to have direct control
over your money and your own personal finance, but being able to convey that
message and why it's so important to other people is also probably a large
part of, um, being able to orange pill people and wake people up to what's
important, why it's important, and why Bitcoin is all a part of this.
Um, but yeah, I think definitely your, uh, input about how much you value.
Being able to take direct control o over your money is something that is
shared, um, throughout the Bitcoin space.
Through and through.
Anja: Yeah.
And it's like, as a woman, you obviously don't wanna be in a financially
abusive relationship with your partner.
You would never wanna be with someone who controls the money without your
input into it, without knowing how that money's going to spend be spent, how
much you have each month or each year.
Like that would be considered a coercive and financially abusive relationship.
But we're in that relationship with the state right now and
why you're okay with that.
Like those are some of the big questions.
And when you, it's like having that moment where those rose colored glasses
come off can be a very grieving process.
At the same time, there's a meme that says, I miss the world before I knew
too much about it, but at the same time.
It is also taking a hyperrealistic view of reality.
And that is in itself, empowering the fact that we do have an alternative.
Like we are lucky that we have Bitcoin as a, as a real alternative.
If we didn't, then that whole reality would be a lot more grim.
It's a hard pill to swallow.
Yeah.
I completely, you know, even as a young child, like I remember asking
myself all these deep questions like, well, what are we here for?
What is the meaning of life?
I never asked myself until I was like, just last year, 30, 30, late thirties.
It's like, who does my life belonged to?
And you know, I always thought my life belonged to me, my family,
my community, my life belonged to people who I wanted it to belong to.
But that really sadly is not the case.
My life belongs to the state.
Financially speaking, it belongs.
To the state.
El: Yeah, I think, um, I think that's a very good point that you bring up,
but it, it doesn't have to be that way.
And I think in being able to understand what the problem is, exactly how I
introduce Bitcoin to the women at my meetups, being able to understand
what the problem is, is it is, it can be scary if you've never had to
grapple with it before and it unlocks 1,000,001 different rabbit holes that
you know, naturally you're gonna have to spend lots of time, um, going down.
But in that process, it is incredibly freeing.
It's incredibly liberating and it provides you, because we have Bitcoin, it provides
you with a direct and immediate solution.
If we didn't have Bitcoin, it, it would be a lot scarier of a world and
I would be a lot more worried with our.
Environment and our climate, um, politically, socially, um, in our
economy, I would be a lot more worried if we didn't have Bitcoin.
But thankfully Bitcoin is this escape hatch that people, you know, generations
before us would have wished for if they could have even imagined it.
So yes, it is a scary process, um, understanding that you've been lied
to and there are concerted efforts that have kept you in the dark.
In saying that once you do see the light, it illuminates these solutions
like Bitcoin that you can now learn about and learn how to utilize in
order to give yourself a freer future.
Anja: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I love the way you said that.
It does offer some hope after my dark cream explanation
of ownership of our lives.
Um, but thank you so much for coming on.
I would love to know, Elle, how can people find you if they
wanna get in touch with you?
El: Of course.
So I am active over a couple social media platforms.
Um, primarily the best way to find me, uh, get in contact with me or follow
what I am, um, putting out onto the internet is going to be on x just Lco
Freedom Fairy or on TikTok for more of my like video content on political,
social and Bitcoin commentary.
That is just l the Freedom Ferry, EL, the Freedom Ferry.
Anja: Great.
Thank you so much.
And I'll drop those in the episode notes as well for those who want to find it.
Um, do you have any final thoughts that you wanna share with the audience?
El: Any final thoughts?
Um, I mean, I feel like when I start talking about Bitcoin, it's just like
an itch that can never be scratched.
So I could, I could keep going forever, but I think what I would like to say,
if there is anyone watching who hasn't yet gotten into Bitcoin, but you're
curious, stay curious and keep digging.
As we said before, the more you dig, the more you begin to understand the freer you
will become and the quicker you'll be able to liberate yourself, spread the message.
Men, if you're in Sydney and you have a wife or a daughter or a niece or
an aunt who is curious about Bitcoin but doesn't know where to start,
feel free to send her in, uh, my direction to women in Bitcoin, Sydney.
And yeah, I think my message is stay curious and don't stop
learning just because you are facing some very difficult information.
Anja: Absolutely.
Thank you so much for your time, El.
El: Thank you.
Outro: That's it for this week on The Honest Money Show, a big shout
out again to shop bitcoin.com au for making this episode possible.
Until next week, stay smart with your money and stay decentralized.