WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:49.700 Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:50.150 --> 00:00:53.590 I've got Christine Dixon with me today. 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.070 If you don't know her, you soon will, and you should. 00:00:56.410 --> 00:00:58.600 She is based out of Los Angeles. 00:00:58.690 --> 00:01:03.660 She is an equine assisted coach, but she's much, much more than that. 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:08.105 And I'm going to let her Talk a little bit about the modalities that she uses 00:01:08.105 --> 00:01:13.615 and how she uses them specifically with trauma and addiction and for those of 00:01:13.615 --> 00:01:20.275 us who are working broader and broader in the field like us at Horsepoy and New 00:01:20.275 --> 00:01:25.345 Trails where we got into it with autism and then naturally found this broadening 00:01:25.345 --> 00:01:32.815 out into all sorts of areas of You know mental health we realize at certain 00:01:32.815 --> 00:01:39.990 points that we need mentors And I was at the Warwick Schiller's Journey On Summit 00:01:40.050 --> 00:01:42.330 in Birmingham in England this year. 00:01:43.010 --> 00:01:46.470 And I'd met Christine before in California, but she was there 00:01:46.470 --> 00:01:48.290 speaking again, and this is the first time I'd really had a 00:01:48.290 --> 00:01:49.740 chance to properly listen to her. 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:55.520 And She shared in more depth about her work. 00:01:55.620 --> 00:01:57.170 And so I thought I would try it out. 00:01:57.270 --> 00:02:01.060 I thought this sounds really good I'm gonna try this thing that she does and 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:04.470 see if it works on some of my own, you know difficult histories and stories 00:02:04.470 --> 00:02:12.300 and little traumas that are going around within me and she did her thing and it 00:02:12.300 --> 00:02:20.775 worked interesting and it worked in a way that Usually, I'm used to seeing 00:02:20.855 --> 00:02:23.545 when I'm engaging in the shamanic world. 00:02:23.965 --> 00:02:28.205 And normally I don't bring that side into equine assisted world, 00:02:28.215 --> 00:02:30.215 because it's a can of worms. 00:02:30.705 --> 00:02:35.495 However, there are things that cross over in the shamanic world. 00:02:36.705 --> 00:02:41.135 human consciousness in society, but also have good hard science behind them. 00:02:41.245 --> 00:02:48.455 So without rambling too much more, I'm going to let Christine introduce herself 00:02:48.515 --> 00:02:55.125 and advocate for her own awesomeness, and share with us some things that really 00:02:55.165 --> 00:02:57.945 will inform us making our practices. 00:02:58.815 --> 00:03:00.875 Okay, so Equine Assist. 00:03:00.875 --> 00:03:02.045 Well, thank you for coming on. 00:03:02.355 --> 00:03:03.995 Please tell us who you are and what you do. 00:03:05.625 --> 00:03:09.615 Christine Dickson: Well, first, I'm really excited to be here because Yes, 00:03:09.615 --> 00:03:16.035 we did connect in a deeper way at the Birmingham summit, because we kind of 00:03:16.035 --> 00:03:20.335 were in this orbit of each other the other two times, but this time we really 00:03:20.335 --> 00:03:25.215 talked and we've just had a lot of deep conversations that have been really fun. 00:03:25.215 --> 00:03:28.675 So I'm excited to be here and have another one with you. 00:03:30.265 --> 00:03:30.875 So 00:03:33.625 --> 00:03:38.015 I, you know, these days I transformational mentor because. 00:03:38.910 --> 00:03:43.070 That I'm trained in, in a few modalities that they all kind 00:03:43.070 --> 00:03:44.890 of work together beautifully. 00:03:45.370 --> 00:03:50.250 I, I got trained as a clinical hypnotherapist in 2004. 00:03:50.795 --> 00:03:55.705 I've been trained as an advanced practitioner of IEMT, which is 00:03:55.725 --> 00:03:57.735 integral eye movement technique. 00:03:59.255 --> 00:04:07.365 And I have been doing equine assisted coaching for about five, six years now. 00:04:08.025 --> 00:04:11.765 So all of those things as well as mentoring and coaching 00:04:11.765 --> 00:04:17.305 people, they all work really well together and build on each other. 00:04:17.715 --> 00:04:20.165 And the people that. 00:04:21.125 --> 00:04:26.325 I think that I most attract and work with, or, you know, it's funny, they 00:04:26.325 --> 00:04:32.575 say, like, you know, you typically work with people who are similar in 00:04:32.575 --> 00:04:34.755 what their experiences are, right? 00:04:35.195 --> 00:04:42.640 So I I tend to work with people who have either grown up in families where 00:04:42.970 --> 00:04:48.700 they had one or both caregivers, whether that was a parent or grandparent, 00:04:49.940 --> 00:04:56.770 had mental health issues, such as pathological personality disorders or 00:04:57.310 --> 00:05:03.850 addiction, because the 2 things show up in, in much the same way you have 00:05:03.900 --> 00:05:12.855 a, an emotionally and compassionate, Level person who is dysregulated. 00:05:12.875 --> 00:05:16.895 So their compassion for others is greatly reduced 00:05:19.175 --> 00:05:25.635 and that makes for a very unhealthy environment for a child because the child 00:05:25.645 --> 00:05:32.185 then really early on learns that to adapt and survive in this environment, I'm 00:05:32.295 --> 00:05:35.425 going to have to be able to read the room. 00:05:35.425 --> 00:05:39.705 I'm gonna have to be able to read the nervous system and thoughts of the person 00:05:39.705 --> 00:05:41.255 who's bigger than me and in charge. 00:05:41.255 --> 00:05:44.795 I'm And that becomes a hypervigilance. 00:05:45.415 --> 00:05:51.295 It becomes this kind of almost superpower where you can even tell by maybe the 00:05:51.295 --> 00:05:54.905 way the footsteps are coming down the hallway of whether this is going 00:05:54.905 --> 00:05:56.865 to be a good night or a bad night. 00:05:59.130 --> 00:06:07.260 And, and that is so linked that kind of sensory projection and 00:06:07.280 --> 00:06:11.960 hypervigilance is really correlated with high levels of empathy. 00:06:13.410 --> 00:06:21.020 So we develop these high levels of connection and empathy and reading people. 00:06:23.940 --> 00:06:28.740 The, the downside to that is that what we don't cultivate. 00:06:29.820 --> 00:06:34.930 Is our own sense of self, we don't cultivate how we 00:06:34.930 --> 00:06:36.480 feel in any given situation. 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:41.310 Like, like, does that make me feel good or bad? 00:06:41.310 --> 00:06:43.340 Or do I like this or dislike it? 00:06:43.380 --> 00:06:49.270 Because we're always reading the room and figuring out what other people are sensing 00:06:49.270 --> 00:06:54.200 and feeling there and then adapting to them in order again, to be safe. 00:06:56.740 --> 00:07:01.980 And so this creates a pattern where we only feel safe. 00:07:02.345 --> 00:07:04.255 In how other people are perceiving us 00:07:06.975 --> 00:07:10.485 and many times we grow up to take that pattern out into the world and find 00:07:10.485 --> 00:07:15.315 ourselves in constantly similar situations because that's where our skill set is. 00:07:16.475 --> 00:07:20.055 And even though we don't want to be in those situations. 00:07:22.085 --> 00:07:30.305 To the 88 percent that is our subconscious mind, what is familiar is pleasurable. 00:07:32.835 --> 00:07:33.965 Rupert Isaacson: Can you just repeat that? 00:07:35.425 --> 00:07:36.115 Say that again. 00:07:36.875 --> 00:07:38.705 Christine Dickson: So, to the subconscious. 00:07:38.705 --> 00:07:38.785 Yes. 00:07:39.935 --> 00:07:43.415 We call them, you know, in hypnotherapy, they're we, they're called knowns. 00:07:44.025 --> 00:07:45.845 These are what we know, right? 00:07:46.805 --> 00:07:53.815 To the subconscious knowns, which to the conscious mind could be abuse or 00:07:53.815 --> 00:07:55.495 negative, but to the subconscious. 00:07:57.035 --> 00:08:01.275 Knowns are pleasurable because we know how this works. 00:08:01.355 --> 00:08:03.205 We've been here before. 00:08:03.385 --> 00:08:04.815 It's like the devil you know. 00:08:06.445 --> 00:08:11.375 So you could grow up in a very dysregulated, unhealthy, chaotic, 00:08:11.385 --> 00:08:18.235 abusive environment and your conscious mind could dream about when you grow 00:08:18.365 --> 00:08:23.085 up and you can't wait to get away from all of this and you dream about this 00:08:23.155 --> 00:08:24.955 healthy life that you want to live. 00:08:26.055 --> 00:08:30.815 But what's funny, or it's not funny at all, what is interesting, 00:08:30.825 --> 00:08:37.285 let's say, is that the subconscious goes, hey, that's a great idea. 00:08:37.425 --> 00:08:38.485 That looks cool. 00:08:38.715 --> 00:08:39.695 But guess what? 00:08:40.795 --> 00:08:42.435 We've never experienced that. 00:08:43.135 --> 00:08:47.205 And because it's the unknown, it's, it's to be feared. 00:08:47.755 --> 00:08:50.925 We're going to make you attracted to people in situations that 00:08:50.925 --> 00:08:54.625 will repeat the patterns of your childhood because you know what? 00:08:54.825 --> 00:08:55.855 You know how to do that. 00:08:58.395 --> 00:09:06.155 So then we end up in relationships like romantic relationships with people that 00:09:06.155 --> 00:09:11.636 could most of the time appear that they're Absolutely, not that and then once we 00:09:11.636 --> 00:09:18.775 get further down the road we realize oh my gosh This is the same pattern 00:09:19.625 --> 00:09:25.165 and then we go through the trauma of being In a relationship as an adult with 00:09:25.175 --> 00:09:32.055 someone who's either battling addiction or has the same pathological personality 00:09:32.055 --> 00:09:43.235 disorders, or what can be really, really heavy is that we are so broken down 00:09:45.465 --> 00:09:46.685 spiritually. 00:09:47.060 --> 00:09:54.140 Emotionally that in our, you know, these, these create cognitive dissonance, 00:09:54.170 --> 00:09:59.290 meaning, like, we no longer know what's real and what's not what's true. 00:09:59.290 --> 00:10:02.320 And what's not because we're constantly being blamed projected 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.040 lied to all of these things. 00:10:05.830 --> 00:10:10.650 So, and instead of trying to clear and face it. 00:10:11.590 --> 00:10:17.140 We take ourselves out and people will take themselves down by then using drugs and 00:10:17.140 --> 00:10:26.570 alcohol to check out when actually facing and leaving the situation feels unbearable 00:10:28.780 --> 00:10:33.570 and that the the worst part about that is that we've now become more 00:10:33.580 --> 00:10:37.880 more and more vulnerable in the Relationship because that addiction 00:10:37.880 --> 00:10:41.650 will be used against us to keep us in that cage and keep us in that box 00:10:44.100 --> 00:10:45.900 Rupert Isaacson: Addiction is an interesting thing because we 00:10:45.900 --> 00:10:51.200 tend to think of it as addiction to a substance or a behavior. 00:10:53.430 --> 00:10:57.800 But I think that what you're talking about here is that what 00:10:57.800 --> 00:11:00.600 we seem to be really addicted to is certain types of relationship. 00:11:01.110 --> 00:11:03.285 As you say, because what's familiar, what's familiar. 00:11:04.255 --> 00:11:05.905 We feel we know how to handle it. 00:11:05.915 --> 00:11:10.585 So even if it's essentially unsafe, it's a danger that we know how to navigate. 00:11:12.195 --> 00:11:12.805 Christine Dickson: I don't want to cut you up. 00:11:12.805 --> 00:11:15.385 I just want to make one clarification. 00:11:18.865 --> 00:11:20.565 I wouldn't call it an addiction. 00:11:21.625 --> 00:11:21.985 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:11:22.385 --> 00:11:25.375 Christine Dickson: And the reason I wouldn't call an addiction is because 00:11:25.375 --> 00:11:29.025 there's a conscious aspect to addiction. 00:11:29.265 --> 00:11:33.420 You know, when you're picking up A bottle of alcohol, right? 00:11:33.790 --> 00:11:38.580 You know when you're picking up a drug you may feel powerless to it, but you know, 00:11:38.580 --> 00:11:46.950 you're doing it We're talking about an unconscious Program that exists in your 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:53.510 mind That even though consciously you think you're making good choices and not 00:11:53.510 --> 00:12:01.110 choosing it, you don't see the red flags because your tolerance level of those red 00:12:01.110 --> 00:12:06.840 flags has been trained to be so high that you just don't see it until it gets to 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:13.240 this point where suddenly it's now crossed into the level from the subconscious 00:12:13.300 --> 00:12:17.350 into the conscious and you see what's now happening and then it all becomes clear. 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.470 But it's not that choice of addiction. 00:12:21.740 --> 00:12:25.840 Rupert Isaacson: Okay So if people are listening to this and they're saying well, 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:30.840 okay, but i'm running an equine assisted thing, you know Um, why do I need to 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:39.130 know this or I can see why I need to know this But i've got people showing up who 00:12:39.350 --> 00:12:40.780 might be going through something less. 00:12:41.010 --> 00:12:42.110 How on earth do I help them? 00:12:44.610 --> 00:12:51.810 I want to talk about your work prior to horses first because, you know, we horse 00:12:51.810 --> 00:12:54.620 people were very kind of, Oh, well, you've been in this for five to seven years. 00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:57.330 Well, I've been in it for, you know, 5, 000 years, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:12:57.670 --> 00:12:57.880 You know? 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.050 So people like me, for example, I'll play devil's advocate, you know, 00:13:01.510 --> 00:13:05.720 grew up in horse culture, no horses, never, never didn't know horses, 00:13:05.730 --> 00:13:08.270 even though my parents actually were not horsey, but I had a horsey aunt. 00:13:08.330 --> 00:13:13.380 So I was, you know, And it's been my life, you know, the whole, my whole life. 00:13:13.400 --> 00:13:15.620 Even when I've done other careers, it's always been parallel. 00:13:15.620 --> 00:13:19.270 So there's never been a time when I wasn't sort of a professional cause I came 00:13:19.270 --> 00:13:21.700 out at it, not from the big money side. 00:13:21.700 --> 00:13:25.590 So you then have to become a pro, you know, basically first in the sports side, 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:28.500 the training side, and then latterly in the therapeutic side or whatever. 00:13:28.730 --> 00:13:29.290 Okay, fine. 00:13:29.790 --> 00:13:32.200 So horse people. 00:13:32.640 --> 00:13:36.380 naturally have a bit of an allergy when someone comes in and says, well, I've 00:13:36.380 --> 00:13:40.610 been doing this quite recently because we know that that can also sometimes actually 00:13:40.610 --> 00:13:42.460 lead to some, you know, bad judgments. 00:13:42.820 --> 00:13:43.380 This is true. 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:52.170 So I want first for you to talk to us about your life with these types 00:13:52.170 --> 00:13:57.665 of treatments, modalities prior to horses, then how did you get started? 00:13:58.495 --> 00:13:59.695 Get into them with horses. 00:14:00.005 --> 00:14:07.535 And then what can old timers like me, equine dinosaurs learn from some 00:14:07.545 --> 00:14:11.295 stuff that you can bring in from completely outside of that world, 00:14:11.305 --> 00:14:15.125 and then apply to horses that I could have mentorship for when, when someone 00:14:15.125 --> 00:14:16.555 like this shows up in my practice. 00:14:16.565 --> 00:14:18.445 So can you talk us back to where you began? 00:14:18.455 --> 00:14:19.815 How do you know about all this stuff? 00:14:21.895 --> 00:14:22.355 Christine Dickson: So. 00:14:22.835 --> 00:14:31.385 Firstly, anybody that kind of, that knows me or has worked with me, I, I really 00:14:31.385 --> 00:14:39.805 don't push myself as a horse expert or even a neckline coaching expert in this. 00:14:41.145 --> 00:14:49.475 What I know is that what has worked, Or me, but nobody has to listen to me at all. 00:14:49.815 --> 00:14:53.535 I'm just going to share what my experiences have been. 00:14:54.165 --> 00:14:57.705 And again, like super humble in this area. 00:14:57.705 --> 00:14:59.615 Like I would never put myself. 00:15:00.095 --> 00:15:03.105 In the position of saying that I'm an expert in this, but I can 00:15:03.105 --> 00:15:05.965 share what my experience has been. 00:15:05.965 --> 00:15:14.165 So what's funny is this, this whole, this whole life journey began with the 00:15:14.165 --> 00:15:16.835 idea of doing equine assisted coaching. 00:15:17.405 --> 00:15:18.965 Well, that's not necessarily true. 00:15:19.025 --> 00:15:23.495 It began with hypnotherapy. 00:15:23.575 --> 00:15:28.545 I really, really wanted to be a a therapist. 00:15:28.555 --> 00:15:29.535 That's what I wanted to be. 00:15:29.575 --> 00:15:33.085 And when I moved When I moved from Vancouver, B. 00:15:33.085 --> 00:15:33.305 C. 00:15:33.305 --> 00:15:38.985 down to Los Angeles, and I was in a really dysfunctional relationship and, you know, 00:15:38.985 --> 00:15:41.415 very living like paycheck to paycheck. 00:15:43.130 --> 00:15:44.490 I was still raising my kids. 00:15:44.550 --> 00:15:48.430 I, I had never gone to college, right? 00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:49.270 So 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:56.580 going back to school meant that I was going to be in school for a very, 00:15:56.790 --> 00:16:03.550 very, very long time before I would be licensed to be able to see clients. 00:16:04.070 --> 00:16:08.540 And I just didn't see how I was going to be able to do that because I needed 00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:11.760 to get out of this relationship and I needed something that I could. 00:16:12.985 --> 00:16:20.645 Make money at and support my children and I wanted to really do something 00:16:20.715 --> 00:16:27.785 that was going to help people so I saw an ad for It was the only college in 00:16:27.785 --> 00:16:35.685 the country of hypnotherapy and it was in Los Angeles and it was a year and a 00:16:35.695 --> 00:16:40.580 half program and I had a residency and it was very I was very on the up and up. 00:16:41.450 --> 00:16:45.070 So I signed up for that because that would mean that within two years 00:16:45.350 --> 00:16:47.650 I could actually be doing this. 00:16:49.800 --> 00:16:56.140 And that changed my whole view of what I wanted to do because I loved that modality 00:16:56.150 --> 00:17:00.960 so much because it was addressing that 88 percent which is the subconscious program. 00:17:01.730 --> 00:17:06.120 And I had felt like I found my thing. 00:17:06.150 --> 00:17:10.450 I found the thing that I love doing. 00:17:10.470 --> 00:17:12.200 I love seeing the results of this. 00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:18.000 But I was still in the middle of my own dysfunctional relationship and, 00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:26.560 you know, one of the markers that makes a person more likely to be in a pathological 00:17:26.560 --> 00:17:33.060 relationship or I should say a cluster of markers is one is a high, high level of 00:17:33.070 --> 00:17:43.280 tolerance, a high, high level of empathy, really strong level of loyalty to a fault. 00:17:43.810 --> 00:17:49.520 Like, you give loyalty to someone who does not give it back and 00:17:49.570 --> 00:17:54.000 and those, those a combination of those things and that your 00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:01.700 relationships mean the world to you, you know, and having those markers. 00:18:02.500 --> 00:18:07.500 Those traits meant that I was always putting, I would always 00:18:07.500 --> 00:18:09.360 put everything before myself. 00:18:10.190 --> 00:18:15.200 So even though I got trained in this, even though I was so excited, even 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.050 though I was starting, I graduated, I was starting to get clients. 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:25.880 At the time, my ex-husband was starting as construction business and convinced 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.670 me that if I gave all that up. 00:18:30.185 --> 00:18:36.225 And I became the operations manager and ran that company for 00:18:36.225 --> 00:18:42.405 him, for us, they would make way more money than my hypnotherapy. 00:18:42.435 --> 00:18:46.145 And therefore we could build this up over and it was like, 00:18:46.425 --> 00:18:48.055 do this for a year or two. 00:18:48.075 --> 00:18:51.485 And then you can go do your little hypnotherapy thing. 00:18:51.905 --> 00:18:54.785 And you wouldn't have to worry about money and blah, blah, blah. 00:18:55.185 --> 00:18:57.535 Well, I'm sure you can imagine how that went. 00:18:57.595 --> 00:19:01.315 I was doing that for five years. 00:19:01.915 --> 00:19:06.635 As our relationship disintegrated, it was how and I would, but I 00:19:06.635 --> 00:19:09.435 was doing it for this carrot. 00:19:09.755 --> 00:19:12.915 You know, there was the carrot and I just kept looking at that 00:19:12.915 --> 00:19:14.565 carrot going against everything. 00:19:14.565 --> 00:19:21.255 That was my, my intuition was telling me my, my soul was telling me and guess what? 00:19:23.305 --> 00:19:27.225 2008 happened and. 00:19:28.145 --> 00:19:30.355 Everything was lost. 00:19:31.075 --> 00:19:31.965 Five years. 00:19:32.305 --> 00:19:37.125 I did that job and it was everything that had been built up 00:19:37.635 --> 00:19:39.245 was taken away in the recession. 00:19:39.735 --> 00:19:41.425 We lost everything, everything. 00:19:43.165 --> 00:19:47.705 And I went through a period where I told myself that this was punishment. 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:52.960 You know, that the universe was punishing me for being greedy because look, I 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.460 wanted this really abundant life that I could give stuff to my children 00:19:56.460 --> 00:19:57.740 and help my children and all this. 00:19:57.760 --> 00:19:58.910 And I was just being greedy. 00:19:58.910 --> 00:20:02.620 You should just be happy with the fact that you have somewhere 00:20:02.620 --> 00:20:03.730 to live and you have food. 00:20:03.730 --> 00:20:06.340 And, and, and it was really hard. 00:20:06.340 --> 00:20:07.890 Like I was really depressed. 00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:16.070 And I had to slowly figure out who I was because I had given everything 00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:22.440 to this relationship and this company and all of this and it all 00:20:23.770 --> 00:20:27.650 was not in alignment with who I was. 00:20:28.050 --> 00:20:29.500 It was not in integrity. 00:20:31.330 --> 00:20:32.710 And now I didn't know who I was. 00:20:35.770 --> 00:20:39.830 And I, I read at that point in time, I read The Artist's Way. 00:20:41.775 --> 00:20:43.595 And in The Artist's Way, it talks about 00:20:45.885 --> 00:20:49.735 journaling, writing morning pages, and having one day a 00:20:49.735 --> 00:20:51.775 week that was your play day. 00:20:54.415 --> 00:20:58.555 And when I was thinking about play, of course play kind of goes back to 00:20:58.555 --> 00:21:03.035 your childhood, so I started using my childhood as kind of fertile 00:21:03.035 --> 00:21:05.595 ground to try and remember who I was. 00:21:07.165 --> 00:21:12.925 And try to rebuild myself and I would go to museums because they 00:21:12.925 --> 00:21:14.405 were free and I was so broke. 00:21:14.465 --> 00:21:15.975 I mean, this was in the middle of the recession. 00:21:15.975 --> 00:21:17.595 I was so sober. 00:21:17.595 --> 00:21:19.025 I was baking bread at home. 00:21:19.135 --> 00:21:23.015 It, yeah, it was, I was very, very financially tapped. 00:21:23.065 --> 00:21:23.755 So 00:21:26.705 --> 00:21:28.405 yeah, this was a slow process. 00:21:28.905 --> 00:21:30.425 Building myself back up again. 00:21:34.175 --> 00:21:35.545 Rupert Isaacson: Where do the horses come into this? 00:21:37.585 --> 00:21:42.645 Christine Dickson: So, when things were really bad, I would go to barns. 00:21:44.585 --> 00:21:46.185 I would find public barns. 00:21:47.155 --> 00:21:50.765 I didn't know, like, I always loved horses, but I would, I don't know, I 00:21:50.765 --> 00:21:53.635 didn't understand why when it was Was 00:21:53.635 --> 00:21:54.605 Rupert Isaacson: that, was that going back to childhood? 00:21:54.605 --> 00:21:56.905 Was that the little girl who actually wanted horses? 00:21:57.235 --> 00:21:57.645 Christine Dickson: Yes. 00:21:58.005 --> 00:21:58.365 Yes. 00:21:58.800 --> 00:22:02.780 And I would go to the barns and I would just walk up and down the breezeway 00:22:04.180 --> 00:22:11.640 and feel better and feel this calming unraveling in my chest and feel like 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.890 I could breathe just being there 00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:17.150 Rupert Isaacson: with the horse's heads looking over the boxes sort of 00:22:17.870 --> 00:22:18.450 Christine Dickson: that's it. 00:22:19.650 --> 00:22:22.870 Maybe I'd pet some noses a little bit, but you know, like I was. 00:22:23.370 --> 00:22:25.540 Rupert Isaacson: And had you been exposed to horses at all as a kid? 00:22:26.760 --> 00:22:27.260 Christine Dickson: Yes. 00:22:27.340 --> 00:22:31.280 But not a lot like my, I was a horse crazy girl that never did get a 00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:36.150 horse, you know, my grandmother, they couldn't afford to have a horse for me. 00:22:36.150 --> 00:22:40.930 So they would take me to like, sometimes like a riding barn where you could, you 00:22:40.930 --> 00:22:46.345 know, I got sent to like a horseback riding camp one, one summer for two 00:22:46.345 --> 00:22:48.875 weeks that was borderline traumatic. 00:22:49.655 --> 00:22:53.555 Yeah, like, you know, I always gravitated towards horses always. 00:22:53.565 --> 00:22:59.265 So I had, I had experiences, but I never really, really had experiences. 00:22:59.705 --> 00:23:06.095 So that led me to in, in 2007, I read the Tao of Equus 00:23:08.375 --> 00:23:09.415 by Linda Kahanov. 00:23:10.005 --> 00:23:16.445 And it was like, I suddenly understood why I was attracted 00:23:16.445 --> 00:23:18.645 to horses at my darkest moments. 00:23:19.125 --> 00:23:21.085 Rupert Isaacson: By the way, for listeners, if you don't know who 00:23:21.085 --> 00:23:25.665 she is, go to our Live Free Ride Free podcast and check out the 00:23:25.695 --> 00:23:28.255 interview with Linda Kahanov there. 00:23:28.695 --> 00:23:29.445 It's really good. 00:23:29.495 --> 00:23:29.825 Okay. 00:23:30.090 --> 00:23:31.790 Sorry, back to you, Christine. 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:38.480 Christine Dickson: Well, she, reading that was like, Oh my God, I want to do this. 00:23:38.580 --> 00:23:41.240 Rupert Isaacson: Like, why, what did, what did the book say to you? 00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:49.790 Christine Dickson: Because I have always been so connected to animals. 00:23:49.790 --> 00:23:52.140 I've always felt like a deep connection to animals. 00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:56.960 And especially horses, but I didn't have a lot of experience with 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:00.200 horses and I loved helping people. 00:24:00.230 --> 00:24:02.060 I loved, I loved. 00:24:03.475 --> 00:24:07.785 Learning to I love learning about why we do the things we do or 00:24:07.785 --> 00:24:11.625 how, you know, how can we heal? 00:24:12.305 --> 00:24:19.465 How can we go from suffering and surviving into being a healthy and, 00:24:20.555 --> 00:24:28.755 and liberated thriving human and not just someone who now has, well, I, 00:24:28.925 --> 00:24:34.685 I healed that pain, but, you know, I'm still kind of in the shadows. 00:24:36.340 --> 00:24:45.490 So I saw that I could marry, I could marry my love for horses and my deep 00:24:45.490 --> 00:24:48.730 desire to learn because how, like, I didn't know anything about this. 00:24:48.760 --> 00:24:55.960 I mean, how fun to learn this and to get that wisdom and then to practice 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:57.200 something that is just, you know. 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:04.050 Like magical and there's an aspect of it that it's not clinical, right? 00:25:04.050 --> 00:25:05.800 Like you're partnering with a horse. 00:25:05.800 --> 00:25:08.760 So you have no idea what's going to happen. 00:25:08.770 --> 00:25:14.890 There's it's always, there's a newness to it and a trust in it and a spiritual 00:25:14.890 --> 00:25:18.240 sense that I was very attracted to. 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.200 So that went on my vision board in 2007. 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:27.240 That went on my vision board and I always joke about it 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:29.380 because what's funny is, is that. 00:25:30.335 --> 00:25:37.335 When I finally got to a place where that was possible because that was the guy 00:25:37.355 --> 00:25:41.985 that was a gasoline in my tank Like it was always gonna be I wanted I even ran 00:25:41.985 --> 00:25:48.085 the the equine assisted program at the addiction Facility I worked at in Malibu 00:25:50.585 --> 00:25:54.775 Partnering with there was a therapist and the horse handler came in and 00:25:54.775 --> 00:25:58.865 then I was the one that ran the equine part program by, I brought 00:25:58.865 --> 00:26:04.115 the people to it, I participated in it, and it was my job to write the 00:26:04.115 --> 00:26:07.555 clinical notes for what took place. 00:26:07.775 --> 00:26:08.545 And 00:26:09.045 --> 00:26:10.925 Rupert Isaacson: this is sometime after 2008, right? 00:26:11.055 --> 00:26:15.310 Christine Dickson: Yeah, this is this, sorry, this is in 2018 00:26:15.320 --> 00:26:18.710 to, yeah, for about two years. 00:26:19.290 --> 00:26:24.890 But that was saying that was the gas in my gas tank that was on my vision board. 00:26:24.890 --> 00:26:28.950 But when I finally got to the place where I could do that, really do that was. 00:26:29.425 --> 00:26:33.835 The end of 2020, when I moved into my own ranch and had everything. 00:26:33.855 --> 00:26:38.295 And I remember sitting on a chair, looking out at my horses and having this 00:26:38.295 --> 00:26:41.345 breath and going, Oh, I'm finally here. 00:26:41.345 --> 00:26:42.555 I can finally do it. 00:26:43.195 --> 00:26:46.285 And then just having this realization that. 00:26:47.990 --> 00:26:48.560 That's not it. 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.630 Like, it's a part of it for sure, but the vision of me just doing that, 00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:01.920 like everything else falling away and like that was, it, it, it wasn't 00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:06.380 it, but it was a really key piece. 00:27:06.600 --> 00:27:10.510 And the horses brought me here a thousand percent. 00:27:11.110 --> 00:27:11.700 And 00:27:14.300 --> 00:27:17.695 I've had amazing experiences with them, with clients. 00:27:18.685 --> 00:27:21.975 Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about your current equestrian practice, and then I 00:27:21.975 --> 00:27:23.535 want to go right back to the beginning. 00:27:24.505 --> 00:27:30.735 Where you're born, how you arrive at knowing about these sorts of relationships 00:27:30.735 --> 00:27:36.285 why hypnotherapy, and then why from hypnotherapy to some of the other 00:27:36.285 --> 00:27:41.155 modalities that you do, which I think will be useful for our listeners. 00:27:41.365 --> 00:27:45.055 And then we're going to come catch up again back to the present. 00:27:45.075 --> 00:27:50.155 So tell us, just starting now, tell us about your equestrian practice right now. 00:27:50.355 --> 00:27:50.705 What is it? 00:27:51.030 --> 00:27:51.420 What do you do? 00:27:54.170 --> 00:27:54.750 Christine Dickson: So 00:27:57.570 --> 00:28:00.930 when people seem a bit stuck, 00:28:04.370 --> 00:28:08.630 I love partnering with the horses because 00:28:11.710 --> 00:28:16.950 people will be more genuine and have access. 00:28:17.015 --> 00:28:20.775 I mean, they're not trying to not be genuine, you know, no one's trying, 00:28:20.785 --> 00:28:27.425 but, but a lot of times are traumas based in other people, to be fair. 00:28:27.915 --> 00:28:28.545 So, 00:28:30.545 --> 00:28:34.555 accessing trust, developing trust with someone takes time. 00:28:35.355 --> 00:28:37.965 Trust in an animal can be immediate. 00:28:38.925 --> 00:28:39.195 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:28:40.155 --> 00:28:40.765 Christine Dickson: So, 00:28:44.125 --> 00:28:49.495 taking somebody out, let's say like, One of the things that I've done that is, has 00:28:49.495 --> 00:28:51.975 been really beneficial has been going out. 00:28:51.975 --> 00:28:57.225 So I'll take a couple horses and I'll invite them to come into the arena 00:28:57.695 --> 00:29:00.345 and then I will close the arena. 00:29:00.405 --> 00:29:05.305 I'll put all kinds of toys and things out there for them to interact with. 00:29:05.335 --> 00:29:08.825 And then the client and I will sit, we'll sit outside the arena. 00:29:09.335 --> 00:29:12.755 And I give them a patent paper and I won't tell them the names of any horses 00:29:12.755 --> 00:29:14.815 or any information about any horses. 00:29:15.185 --> 00:29:19.785 And I asked them for about 1520 minutes to just observe the horses. 00:29:20.975 --> 00:29:26.745 And then I wanted them to write a little bio about each horse, like, how they 00:29:26.745 --> 00:29:29.365 interpret that horse, what they see. 00:29:30.925 --> 00:29:34.585 And what they feel that that horse's personality is all of this stuff. 00:29:35.925 --> 00:29:38.255 It's amazing because 00:29:40.415 --> 00:29:42.905 people will project so much. 00:29:43.605 --> 00:29:51.705 On to the horses, but by doing that by taking it outside of their themselves 00:29:51.705 --> 00:29:54.865 where they're feeling all the feelings and putting them outside of their 00:29:54.865 --> 00:30:03.165 body on to these forces, they gain clarity and perspective around what's 00:30:03.185 --> 00:30:06.845 actually going on in their life or how they're viewing things in their life. 00:30:07.570 --> 00:30:09.620 Rupert Isaacson: And then maybe the fact that they actually do project 00:30:10.190 --> 00:30:11.130 Christine Dickson: exactly. 00:30:12.310 --> 00:30:13.760 That's my mother in law. 00:30:13.770 --> 00:30:15.200 That's my old boss. 00:30:15.430 --> 00:30:19.880 That one thing, you know, that one just bosses everybody around, right? 00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:24.590 Where anybody that knows horses would say that one's just playing, right? 00:30:25.590 --> 00:30:26.820 Just got a playful spirit. 00:30:27.430 --> 00:30:29.900 That one's a bully, right? 00:30:29.910 --> 00:30:35.600 That one's, and it can be also projecting parts of themselves, right? 00:30:36.670 --> 00:30:41.020 I had one person who was really attracted. 00:30:41.330 --> 00:30:44.440 To my mule, who is like a Zen Buddha. 00:30:44.450 --> 00:30:47.120 He is, he's just, he loves people. 00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:49.420 He's a little man on the totem pole though. 00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:54.650 I have another horse that is very confident, swagger. 00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:56.860 He's the class clown. 00:30:57.380 --> 00:31:03.210 And this person was saying that he really felt a deep connection to my mule. 00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:06.950 But he wanted. 00:31:08.270 --> 00:31:12.060 To be the confident horse. 00:31:12.430 --> 00:31:20.970 And he, and he, he had this almost disgust towards the mule because 00:31:20.970 --> 00:31:22.780 he was low on the totem pole. 00:31:22.790 --> 00:31:29.430 He was a very empathetic and non confrontational being. 00:31:31.160 --> 00:31:36.390 And he, and, and this was a manifestation of, of how he saw himself 00:31:36.390 --> 00:31:42.010 as a man because he, he was that. 00:31:42.510 --> 00:31:48.930 Loving, empathetic, healing man in the world that values the swagger 00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:57.960 and the confidence and felt, and felt like that was what he needed to 00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:03.650 cultivate and really had some self loathing around that he wasn't that. 00:32:05.710 --> 00:32:07.830 Rupert Isaacson: When you point out to someone, you say, well, that 00:32:07.840 --> 00:32:10.400 horse is being a bully, and you say, well, actually, they're just playing. 00:32:10.700 --> 00:32:12.070 At some point, you point that out. 00:32:12.785 --> 00:32:13.205 Perhaps. 00:32:13.885 --> 00:32:19.155 Do those people then get a realisation, Oh shit, I'm projecting. 00:32:19.815 --> 00:32:23.665 Fuck, I kind of do this in my day to day life. 00:32:24.735 --> 00:32:25.045 Oh. 00:32:25.775 --> 00:32:26.425 Absolutely. 00:32:26.525 --> 00:32:27.935 Do they get that clarity? 00:32:27.935 --> 00:32:28.595 Yes. 00:32:28.875 --> 00:32:29.165 Christine Dickson: Yes. 00:32:29.645 --> 00:32:32.855 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's so interesting because I, I think that that 00:32:32.855 --> 00:32:37.435 clarity is almost impossible to get human to human because we, you know, we'll, 00:32:37.445 --> 00:32:39.255 we'll die on the hill of our ego, right? 00:32:39.285 --> 00:32:44.615 And, and we'll do that because our ego is convinced that that's 00:32:44.635 --> 00:32:46.405 what is necessary for survival. 00:32:46.415 --> 00:32:49.135 I think we come by it honestly, otherwise we wouldn't all do it. 00:32:49.575 --> 00:32:53.575 It surprises me, frankly, to hear that if you were to point that 00:32:53.575 --> 00:32:55.240 out, that Someone would accept. 00:32:55.290 --> 00:32:55.710 Oh gosh. 00:32:55.710 --> 00:32:57.820 I guess I am I do project. 00:32:58.120 --> 00:33:01.230 Because then that's you a human pointing it out So therefore, you know, you're 00:33:01.230 --> 00:33:05.750 now the adversary and the human, you know, how do you dance that dance? 00:33:07.790 --> 00:33:09.770 Christine Dickson: Well, you certainly don't blurt it out, right? 00:33:09.780 --> 00:33:11.910 You don't hit him over the head with it. 00:33:12.250 --> 00:33:18.815 I I want to delve deep into first What it is they're seeing and, and 00:33:18.825 --> 00:33:25.055 let them use their, their own tools to kind of like really flesh it out. 00:33:25.325 --> 00:33:28.795 And then I ask questions, you know, I ask them, I will ask them to, 00:33:28.835 --> 00:33:37.285 do you want me to tell you the way that these horses present here? 00:33:37.565 --> 00:33:40.985 You know, not like this is the right answer and that's the wrong answer, 00:33:40.985 --> 00:33:42.440 but do you want me to tell you the way? 00:33:42.970 --> 00:33:46.090 How they are seen here at the ranch. 00:33:48.050 --> 00:33:52.870 So this guy, he's seen as a clown, right? 00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:00.130 He's always looking for play and he's confident and he's, he doesn't have 00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:04.060 all the anxiety that some of the horses who have had other experiences with 00:34:04.060 --> 00:34:06.880 humans can have he's healthier mentally. 00:34:07.250 --> 00:34:13.590 You know, like, and, and I have yet to meet somebody that isn't 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:17.380 fascinated and excited about. 00:34:19.650 --> 00:34:26.480 Looking at the differences between their their perception and another 00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:31.950 perception of What you're seeing 00:34:32.240 --> 00:34:35.370 Rupert Isaacson: and the people that are coming are they I know 00:34:35.370 --> 00:34:36.450 you work a lot with addiction 00:34:38.670 --> 00:34:43.520 Is that frequently what's brought them through the ranch gate or is it 00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:45.180 less that now is it more other things? 00:34:46.550 --> 00:34:48.200 Christine Dickson: You know, it's less the addiction now. 00:34:48.200 --> 00:34:56.025 It's more the The people who have experienced the other side, which 00:34:56.025 --> 00:35:00.805 is the person who has lived with the addict, or the person who has lived 00:35:00.805 --> 00:35:06.545 with the person with a pathological personality disorder or growing up 00:35:06.555 --> 00:35:08.535 with them or chosen as partners. 00:35:08.935 --> 00:35:12.535 Because there's a lot of healing that needs to happen. 00:35:13.035 --> 00:35:19.545 A lot of subconscious programming and, and, you know, there's, 00:35:24.155 --> 00:35:27.935 I think that there's an aspect that, 00:35:31.615 --> 00:35:32.205 how do I say this? 00:35:32.265 --> 00:35:41.595 So there's been a lot of emphasis on helping the person who has low self esteem 00:35:41.595 --> 00:35:46.155 and low and a low power level or how you want to describe it in relationships, 00:35:46.255 --> 00:35:47.935 the, the personal that's more. 00:35:48.475 --> 00:35:51.525 Needs to be brought up there. 00:35:51.535 --> 00:35:57.625 You know, that's been like so much, the focus of self help books and, 00:35:57.635 --> 00:36:01.325 and things is the person who needs to be brought up but not a lot of 00:36:01.375 --> 00:36:08.105 talk about the grandiosity and the grandiose that needs to be brought down. 00:36:09.485 --> 00:36:16.595 And many times when you're bringing someone up, that's not something that 00:36:16.595 --> 00:36:20.235 that person's used to, so they don't have a feel for it, but it's, it's And 00:36:20.275 --> 00:36:25.795 when they're trying to quote, unquote, fight for themselves or set boundaries 00:36:25.795 --> 00:36:32.955 or do these things, they, without a lot of guidance, they can be not very good at 00:36:32.955 --> 00:36:38.265 that and then they can overcompensate and then they can start to become the bully. 00:36:40.505 --> 00:36:45.395 Using their pain as justification, 00:36:47.585 --> 00:36:49.335 but that's not what they want to do. 00:36:49.355 --> 00:36:54.925 It's just that they don't have the framework to be able to have balance 00:36:55.015 --> 00:37:02.075 and, and have true, a true place of grounding to come from and not feel 00:37:02.075 --> 00:37:03.935 like everything is a power fight. 00:37:06.665 --> 00:37:07.075 Rupert Isaacson: Got it. 00:37:07.210 --> 00:37:07.330 Are you, 00:37:09.350 --> 00:37:13.620 are you using a particular set of modalities in the equine? 00:37:13.620 --> 00:37:14.970 I know you are on the non equine. 00:37:14.970 --> 00:37:17.430 I'm gonna keep promising to go back to these. 00:37:17.430 --> 00:37:21.040 We're going to are you using something like egal National natural life 00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:25.120 manship, blah, or are you, are you sort of going with your gut here based 00:37:25.150 --> 00:37:30.750 on the work that you did pre equine, if you like, now brought to equine? 00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:33.150 Is that more describing what you're doing? 00:37:34.930 --> 00:37:36.280 Christine Dickson: Yes, yes. 00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:39.190 It's more of partnering with the horse. 00:37:39.790 --> 00:37:43.300 And allowing and, and just really kind of setting things up. 00:37:43.750 --> 00:37:44.350 I, 00:37:48.790 --> 00:37:51.910 I just have a different view, not a different view. 00:37:51.910 --> 00:37:53.060 Cause a lot of people have the same view. 00:37:53.470 --> 00:37:58.570 My view is that the horses have a ton of wisdom that I don't really have to 00:37:58.570 --> 00:38:05.690 have a lot of technical framework for them to be able to do what they do. 00:38:05.720 --> 00:38:09.000 I've taken a ton of workshops, read a ton of books. 00:38:09.375 --> 00:38:15.465 Had, you know, a few years of active work in this kind of on the job training, 00:38:16.295 --> 00:38:21.745 they did do something similar to, like, any gala, you know, where the idea 00:38:21.745 --> 00:38:26.075 was, you know, you bring the group in, you divide the people up into groups. 00:38:26.155 --> 00:38:29.155 You've got 4 loose horses in the arena. 00:38:29.645 --> 00:38:32.445 We have set up a thing in the middle, a circle, you've got 00:38:32.445 --> 00:38:37.095 to get that horse in the circle without, you know, how do you do it? 00:38:38.435 --> 00:38:43.315 That was kind of, you know, so it was kind of teaching people how 00:38:43.335 --> 00:38:48.065 to work as teams and and stuff like that, but it wasn't always. 00:38:48.555 --> 00:38:55.425 Utilizing in that scenario, the wisdom of the horses and allowing the horses 00:38:55.725 --> 00:38:57.995 to be as involved in the process. 00:38:58.575 --> 00:39:04.385 And what I've found is in the way that I, I partner with them, 00:39:07.335 --> 00:39:09.495 they don't need a lot of direction. 00:39:10.995 --> 00:39:11.915 Rupert Isaacson: They being the client, 00:39:12.335 --> 00:39:13.445 Christine Dickson: meaning the horses. 00:39:13.695 --> 00:39:13.945 Okay. 00:39:14.705 --> 00:39:17.215 I just, you know, and, and I do have to have a framework 00:39:17.215 --> 00:39:18.715 to set things up, obviously. 00:39:18.715 --> 00:39:23.400 And I have to have an idea of what I'm, I'm trying to get, but I 00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:25.470 don't know what is going to happen. 00:39:26.030 --> 00:39:31.930 You asked me a question about about how people then have these moments 00:39:31.950 --> 00:39:34.070 of realizing that they're projecting. 00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:40.180 And I had a woman come out really, really, I really liked her. 00:39:40.180 --> 00:39:41.230 She was really cool. 00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:44.270 And she wanted to work with the horses. 00:39:44.630 --> 00:39:45.830 With me and 00:39:48.170 --> 00:39:51.100 she was very intuitive, very smart 00:39:53.160 --> 00:39:58.010 and I just, you know, there is, you have to kind of, I think if you have 00:39:58.040 --> 00:40:03.150 too much, if I have too much of a, I want to do these things, right? 00:40:03.190 --> 00:40:10.360 A framework, then I'm not going to be as in the moment to, to sense and follow 00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:15.500 my intuition about what the next step should be because I'm going to have 00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:18.290 my checklist that I gotta get done. 00:40:18.820 --> 00:40:21.470 And we started off with the whole. 00:40:22.085 --> 00:40:24.815 In the arena writing about what you think about each horse, 00:40:24.815 --> 00:40:26.155 and she was really spot on. 00:40:26.175 --> 00:40:27.315 She was very good at that. 00:40:28.555 --> 00:40:36.415 And then we ended with, I had her go into a 24 by 24, like, little paddock 00:40:36.425 --> 00:40:39.735 stall with my mule and a brush. 00:40:40.845 --> 00:40:44.635 And I just said, just try this. 00:40:44.655 --> 00:40:51.405 I want you to brush him, but I want you to I want you to be in connection with him. 00:40:51.545 --> 00:40:55.775 I want you to be telling him about what you're doing and talk to him. 00:40:56.095 --> 00:41:02.185 Talk to him as though he can understand you and you can share with him anything, 00:41:04.525 --> 00:41:06.355 anything you're thinking or feeling, 00:41:08.405 --> 00:41:10.735 anything that you want him to get out of this. 00:41:12.435 --> 00:41:15.575 And I just left her there and I went far enough away where I, she knew I 00:41:15.575 --> 00:41:18.905 couldn't hear anything, but that I could still kind of see what was happening. 00:41:20.965 --> 00:41:22.905 And she did that for like 15, 20 minutes. 00:41:25.060 --> 00:41:29.300 And then that ended and we came back into my office 00:41:31.510 --> 00:41:35.660 and she was, she seemed like she was smiling. 00:41:35.660 --> 00:41:36.450 She was happy. 00:41:36.450 --> 00:41:40.460 And so we, we talked about a few things. 00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:44.340 And then I asked her at the end, 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.720 what is your biggest takeaway from today 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:55.000 and what she said, like, just blew me away because I wasn't expecting it. 00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:56.220 She hadn't shared any of this. 00:41:56.230 --> 00:42:01.490 And she said, you know, I've been in therapy for 30 years. 00:42:04.430 --> 00:42:09.390 And for 30 years, I've had therapists telling me that I take everything 00:42:09.390 --> 00:42:17.410 personally, and then I have to stop, you know, the, the ideas to stop trying 00:42:19.940 --> 00:42:22.390 to see myself through other people's eyes. 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.060 I'm always worried about what other people think of me. 00:42:25.090 --> 00:42:28.810 I'm always everything I do is to create this image, you 00:42:28.810 --> 00:42:30.070 know, and then I'm devastated. 00:42:30.070 --> 00:42:34.020 If I think somebody thinks poorly of me and I, and they're like, just 00:42:34.030 --> 00:42:35.990 be in your body, be in your body. 00:42:37.160 --> 00:42:41.720 And she said that having that time with him and observing him that day 00:42:44.170 --> 00:42:48.810 and talking to him about this is that what she realizes that even though 00:42:48.810 --> 00:42:57.550 he was low man on the totem pole, he didn't care because he was fully being 00:42:57.550 --> 00:43:04.470 himself and that was who he was and there was nothing right or wrong about it. 00:43:04.520 --> 00:43:05.340 It just was. 00:43:06.110 --> 00:43:11.470 It was right because that was him being fully himself and he did not care. 00:43:11.850 --> 00:43:14.740 He had no awareness at all. 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:22.110 He was happy and she finally understood what those therapists 00:43:22.110 --> 00:43:27.380 were trying to say to her because she saw it exemplified in him. 00:43:32.330 --> 00:43:36.730 And it's like all of that teaching just finally all lined up inside 00:43:36.740 --> 00:43:38.500 her psyche and she got it. 00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:40.600 Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting. 00:43:40.890 --> 00:43:43.670 You know, I was having a rather similar conversation with someone today. 00:43:43.670 --> 00:43:48.860 We were working with my herd and working on classical dressage stuff. 00:43:48.860 --> 00:43:53.290 But as you probably know, we do that with a view to creating horses that can also 00:43:53.290 --> 00:43:54.940 work with people to make them feel better. 00:43:55.610 --> 00:43:56.130 And 00:43:56.180 --> 00:44:01.230 this person correctly pointed out that the horse that had been the most 00:44:01.230 --> 00:44:08.300 fiery under saddle in a good way was now was, was low on the totem pole. 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:11.420 And I said, it's true, but he didn't used to be. 00:44:12.030 --> 00:44:17.380 He used to be top dog and he took a backseat 18 months ago. 00:44:19.010 --> 00:44:22.110 And that was who he was then. 00:44:23.700 --> 00:44:26.070 But there was a certain amount of stress involved in that for him. 00:44:26.070 --> 00:44:31.260 He had to kind of be in control because to be top dog is actually not 00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:32.670 just about getting the food first. 00:44:32.670 --> 00:44:34.480 It's about, you're supposed to be vigilant. 00:44:34.910 --> 00:44:39.010 You're the one who has to make sure all the other horses are okay, basically. 00:44:39.570 --> 00:44:43.220 And Now, he's stepped down from that role as another horse has come, 00:44:43.250 --> 00:44:44.760 younger horse has come into that role. 00:44:46.430 --> 00:44:49.310 And as you say, he doesn't care. 00:44:50.050 --> 00:44:51.840 He, there's no sense of despair. 00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:55.230 That, Oh my God, I used to be, you know, the top dog and now I'm, you 00:44:55.230 --> 00:44:59.250 know, not and under saddle, he's just the same old, Hey, Hey, Hey. 00:44:59.560 --> 00:45:02.520 And then when he gets in the, in the field or in the pen, 00:45:02.530 --> 00:45:03.820 he's like, yeah, I'm, I'm here. 00:45:03.860 --> 00:45:04.260 That's fine. 00:45:04.270 --> 00:45:04.750 It's fine. 00:45:05.090 --> 00:45:10.140 And would that we could now looked at it myself and kind of went, gosh, 00:45:10.160 --> 00:45:12.130 you know, that's beyond wisdom. 00:45:12.140 --> 00:45:15.370 That's, that's happiness because that's just to be okay where you are. 00:45:15.955 --> 00:45:18.415 You know, we could wish for such peace. 00:45:18.745 --> 00:45:19.925 It's peaceful, I think. 00:45:20.455 --> 00:45:20.895 Okay. 00:45:21.520 --> 00:45:27.290 You came to Horses Latish and again, I keep promising listeners, please hang 00:45:27.290 --> 00:45:31.710 with me because we are going to go into Christine's story of how she got 00:45:31.710 --> 00:45:36.610 here, which you kind of need to hear But when you come into Horses Latish, 00:45:36.610 --> 00:45:37.710 you've got to have mentors, right? 00:45:37.710 --> 00:45:42.080 So even though so I'm always when people say oh Roo, you know, 00:45:42.170 --> 00:45:43.370 why should I learn from you? 00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:46.180 I say well because actually I've got good mentors So if you're if you're 00:45:46.180 --> 00:45:48.680 learning from me, you're actually learning from you know, this person 00:45:48.680 --> 00:45:51.795 and this person and this person said my You know, say it's in the dressage 00:45:51.915 --> 00:45:55.125 thing, then that would be the Valenza family in Portugal, who I know you've 00:45:55.125 --> 00:45:58.635 gone out to visit and seen the amazing stuff they do and blah, blah, blah. 00:45:59.035 --> 00:45:59.975 Who are your mentors? 00:46:00.165 --> 00:46:04.745 Who brought you to your horse knowledge that you can offer your 00:46:04.745 --> 00:46:06.365 horses to people, your herd to people? 00:46:08.305 --> 00:46:12.005 Christine Dickson: I so I, as I said, I started reading the Tao of Equus. 00:46:12.095 --> 00:46:14.595 I just devoured everything. 00:46:14.645 --> 00:46:14.845 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:46:14.845 --> 00:46:16.175 But that doesn't tell you how to keep horses. 00:46:16.555 --> 00:46:20.015 That tells you what you'd like to do with horses, but that doesn't tell you how. 00:46:20.415 --> 00:46:20.695 Right. 00:46:20.935 --> 00:46:21.235 Yeah. 00:46:21.235 --> 00:46:21.495 Christine Dickson: Yeah. 00:46:21.495 --> 00:46:22.745 So is that what you're asking about? 00:46:23.235 --> 00:46:23.405 How 00:46:23.405 --> 00:46:24.425 Rupert Isaacson: did you learn your horse skills? 00:46:24.745 --> 00:46:25.215 Christine Dickson: Oh yeah. 00:46:25.245 --> 00:46:25.625 Okay. 00:46:25.635 --> 00:46:29.845 So it's kind of a funny story. 00:46:29.895 --> 00:46:30.255 Okay. 00:46:30.405 --> 00:46:34.855 So in 2016 Before everything for me really took off, 00:46:37.685 --> 00:46:44.485 I was, I had read a book called You Are a Badass by Jen Sincero, and what's 00:46:44.485 --> 00:46:49.475 funny is that my ego at the time, because I had read all of these books, you 00:46:49.475 --> 00:46:53.335 know, I, I was the shelf help master. 00:46:53.665 --> 00:46:58.685 And all of the really heady ones, all the Eckhart Tolles, and the Gary Zukausky of 00:46:58.695 --> 00:47:01.575 the soul, and all these very deep books. 00:47:01.615 --> 00:47:06.255 And then here's this book, You Are a Badass by Jensen Sharer that I'm listening 00:47:06.255 --> 00:47:09.625 to on Audible, and she's such a dork. 00:47:10.635 --> 00:47:16.715 She's so, has, and, and self proclaimed, like, she has these jokes 00:47:16.725 --> 00:47:18.865 that are like, dad jokes through it. 00:47:19.385 --> 00:47:22.675 She's talk everything she's talking about are things like I already 00:47:22.675 --> 00:47:26.825 know that I remember being so like arrogant in the beginning of listening 00:47:26.825 --> 00:47:31.705 to this book I was like, this is like Self help 101 for people, you 00:47:31.705 --> 00:47:34.105 know, I I already know this stuff 00:47:36.425 --> 00:47:43.615 So silly the thing about it being delivered in such a fun silly, which you 00:47:43.615 --> 00:47:48.085 might identify with light hearted Huh? 00:47:48.425 --> 00:47:48.905 Not you. 00:47:48.935 --> 00:47:49.195 Yeah. 00:47:49.615 --> 00:47:50.415 Not, not at all. 00:47:50.415 --> 00:47:51.885 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:47:51.885 --> 00:47:52.215 Christine Dickson: Right. 00:47:52.215 --> 00:47:52.545 Right. 00:47:52.575 --> 00:47:56.145 Fun, silly, lighthearted, jokey, dorky way. 00:47:57.545 --> 00:48:00.185 It made it accessible to me. 00:48:01.025 --> 00:48:07.955 Suddenly this was something I wasn't just like intellectually pondering and, 00:48:07.955 --> 00:48:12.085 and, you know, from this existential place, this was someone that was 00:48:12.085 --> 00:48:16.095 showing how she did these things and, and, and took in these, these 00:48:16.105 --> 00:48:18.755 teachings and applied them to her life. 00:48:19.120 --> 00:48:23.300 In a really clumsy and not perfect way. 00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:25.290 And it just made it accessible to me. 00:48:25.650 --> 00:48:29.150 So, listening to that book, in the middle of listening to that 00:48:29.150 --> 00:48:30.830 book, it's all about taking action. 00:48:30.830 --> 00:48:31.850 What action are you taking? 00:48:32.230 --> 00:48:35.740 I want to work with horses, but I don't have the money. 00:48:35.900 --> 00:48:37.210 I don't have any horses. 00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:38.730 I don't have any access to horses. 00:48:39.010 --> 00:48:41.050 What, what can I do? 00:48:41.060 --> 00:48:42.030 Like, what can I do? 00:48:42.140 --> 00:48:44.250 So I decided to get in the car. 00:48:44.865 --> 00:48:49.115 And take the two hour, two and a half hour drive up to flag is 00:48:49.125 --> 00:48:54.045 up farms, which is Monty Roberts place, which was up the coast. 00:48:54.635 --> 00:48:59.735 I know that his farm is open to people visiting and it's a beautiful drive. 00:48:59.735 --> 00:49:00.965 And I was like, I'm just going to do that. 00:49:00.975 --> 00:49:06.735 So I did, I went up there, I mean, walked around again, petting some noses. 00:49:06.735 --> 00:49:10.665 And I came back and that night 00:49:12.675 --> 00:49:15.925 I did a, I co produced a documentary with friends. 00:49:17.855 --> 00:49:20.955 Called American street kid, which is about homeless youth in the U. 00:49:20.955 --> 00:49:21.285 S. 00:49:22.295 --> 00:49:28.755 And we were, we had a nonprofit that came out of that called spare some change. 00:49:31.275 --> 00:49:37.855 And our nonprofit was being featured at a at like a band showcase downtown. 00:49:37.965 --> 00:49:40.355 So we were going to be the nonprofit. 00:49:41.120 --> 00:49:44.010 In the entryway with our stuff and our little table and it was 00:49:44.120 --> 00:49:47.980 me and my friend who was one of the producers michelle kaufer? 00:49:48.260 --> 00:49:51.750 So Michelle and I were sitting at the table that night. 00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:53.680 She's like, hey, what did you what'd you do today? 00:49:53.690 --> 00:49:57.430 I said, well, you know, I took this drive up to see these horses because 00:49:57.820 --> 00:50:01.430 you know I really want to get involved in this equine assisted coaching and 00:50:01.430 --> 00:50:06.230 stuff and I don't know how, you know I don't know how that's gonna happen. 00:50:06.230 --> 00:50:07.290 And she's like, wait a minute. 00:50:08.560 --> 00:50:11.660 I know somebody that I think I know somebody that does that 00:50:13.110 --> 00:50:18.745 Well, that's somebody That she thought she knew was Katie Nelligan 00:50:20.845 --> 00:50:23.485 now, I don't know if you've ever heard of Katie Nelligan, but 00:50:23.485 --> 00:50:25.215 she's been on works podcast. 00:50:25.685 --> 00:50:30.495 She, the reason Michelle knew her is because Katie Nelligan used to work 00:50:30.495 --> 00:50:33.315 in marketing at Lionsgate films. 00:50:33.331 --> 00:50:41.270 Katie Nilligan had left Lionsgate to start doing equine assisted 00:50:41.690 --> 00:50:43.010 therapy, learning, coaching. 00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:48.060 And so Michelle hooks me up with Katie. 00:50:48.540 --> 00:50:54.870 Katie is work, her, her whole setup is 25 minutes from my house. 00:50:54.980 --> 00:50:56.130 We decide to meet. 00:50:56.190 --> 00:50:59.210 I took some workshops with Katie. 00:50:59.550 --> 00:51:05.590 Katie introduced me to Esther Bernstein, who runs Sapphire Sanctuary at the time. 00:51:06.220 --> 00:51:10.370 And so I started volunteering because I was like, I need 00:51:10.370 --> 00:51:11.860 to immerse myself in horses. 00:51:11.870 --> 00:51:14.420 I don't know anything about body language of horses. 00:51:14.420 --> 00:51:16.700 I don't know anything about the care of horses. 00:51:17.300 --> 00:51:24.370 So I volunteered at Sapphire fast forward. 00:51:25.300 --> 00:51:30.280 I don't know, eight months and the property that Sapphire was 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:32.830 running out of is in foreclosure. 00:51:33.160 --> 00:51:34.680 All the horses need to go. 00:51:35.540 --> 00:51:37.920 And I adopt one of the horses. 00:51:38.350 --> 00:51:42.750 Sapphire took their, they just ran their operation out of this property. 00:51:43.300 --> 00:51:48.070 They didn't own it, so they just moved their operation, but I took on one of 00:51:48.070 --> 00:51:50.550 the horses that the property had owned. 00:51:51.890 --> 00:51:57.760 Fun fact, that property was so depressing. 00:51:57.790 --> 00:52:00.480 It had people living out of the cars on it. 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.000 It was, it was just a mess for sad, sad horses. 00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:09.130 That's the property I live in now. 00:52:13.670 --> 00:52:19.260 That property, if you had told me in 2016 that I would live there one day, 00:52:19.590 --> 00:52:21.520 I would ask how much you hate me. 00:52:22.270 --> 00:52:27.450 Because, there was the joke was there's not enough sage in the world. 00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:33.650 To clear the energy out of that place, but the land is you people talk about 00:52:33.650 --> 00:52:35.510 they come here and they feel it. 00:52:35.530 --> 00:52:39.600 They feel there's a spiritual aspect to this little tiny corner that I'm in. 00:52:40.630 --> 00:52:44.840 And so when it got foreclosed on a construction company took 00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:46.310 it, they gutted everything. 00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:50.530 They cleaned everything out and eventually. 00:52:52.415 --> 00:52:53.995 Amazingly enough, here I am, 00:52:56.335 --> 00:53:00.055 but I learned about horse care through Esta. 00:53:00.585 --> 00:53:06.415 She was my mentor and then over time I got other mentors and learned from more people 00:53:06.415 --> 00:53:08.625 and more people found work, Schiller. 00:53:10.205 --> 00:53:13.675 And just that's why I said, like, I can't ever imagine. 00:53:13.675 --> 00:53:16.915 I don't think if I'm in horses for 30 more years that I'll 00:53:16.915 --> 00:53:18.895 ever consider myself an expert. 00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:25.200 In horses because it's so humbling like no matter how much I feel like I 00:53:25.200 --> 00:53:30.390 learn there is a sea of knowledge that 00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:33.990 Rupert Isaacson: Well, and that's that's all of us, you 00:53:33.990 --> 00:53:35.160 know that there's a really good. 00:53:35.250 --> 00:53:43.365 Quote from the great 18th century classical dressage master francois He 00:53:43.365 --> 00:53:51.030 wrote what Which is basically if you do dressage today, that's my What you're 00:53:51.030 --> 00:53:56.550 trying to do and he was the keeper of the royal stables for the French king in the 00:53:56.660 --> 00:54:03.010 early 18th century And he was approached by a nobleman to train his son And he said 00:54:03.610 --> 00:54:08.450 the nobleman said to La Guernière, you know, just you know, turn him into a good 00:54:08.450 --> 00:54:12.430 horseman He doesn't have to be like, you know, a total equier as you'd say like a 00:54:12.500 --> 00:54:16.110 total expert he just you know, they can sort of show the horse where to put his 00:54:16.110 --> 00:54:23.060 feet, you know and La Guernière said ah Yeah, the very same thing I myself have 00:54:23.060 --> 00:54:24.890 been trying to do this past 60 years. 00:54:28.560 --> 00:54:29.250 I love it. 00:54:30.460 --> 00:54:33.260 So no, we're all, you know, constant beginners. 00:54:33.340 --> 00:54:39.080 All right, here you are now on this amazing What do you call it? 00:54:40.110 --> 00:54:41.580 Christine Dickson: Raven sun ranch, 00:54:41.610 --> 00:54:42.540 Rupert Isaacson: Raven sun ranch. 00:54:42.540 --> 00:54:43.190 And it's in, 00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:46.640 Christine Dickson: it's in Lakeview Terrace, California. 00:54:46.640 --> 00:54:48.950 So I'm kind of, you know, nobody knows where Lakeview 00:54:48.950 --> 00:54:51.190 terraces, but Burbank is not far. 00:54:51.230 --> 00:54:53.690 So it's in the East Valley in the 00:54:53.690 --> 00:54:55.960 Rupert Isaacson: so it's sort of in those, that hilly bit that isn't the 00:54:55.970 --> 00:55:00.120 Hollywood Hills, but it isn't the valley, but sort of is that bit where 00:55:00.120 --> 00:55:01.910 they do actually quite a lot of filming. 00:55:03.110 --> 00:55:04.880 Christine Dickson: Actually, Patrick Swayze, his place used 00:55:05.040 --> 00:55:06.210 to be a couple blocks away. 00:55:06.230 --> 00:55:06.620 I 00:55:06.630 --> 00:55:09.100 Rupert Isaacson: sort of know a little bit where you're talking about. 00:55:09.110 --> 00:55:11.020 It's a sort of a little hidden gem there. 00:55:11.610 --> 00:55:12.040 Okay. 00:55:13.040 --> 00:55:16.010 You also mentioned this film, American Street Kid, which I've just been 00:55:16.100 --> 00:55:17.850 looking up as you've been talking. 00:55:18.250 --> 00:55:18.860 Impressive. 00:55:21.020 --> 00:55:25.980 You don't make a film like that, get involved in a project like that 00:55:26.020 --> 00:55:29.210 without some sort of life experience. 00:55:29.540 --> 00:55:31.335 So now I want to dial the right number. 00:55:31.945 --> 00:55:33.165 Listeners right back. 00:55:33.165 --> 00:55:33.485 Okay. 00:55:33.855 --> 00:55:34.895 Now I want the buyer. 00:55:35.615 --> 00:55:36.415 Where are you born? 00:55:37.905 --> 00:55:40.965 You know, you talked about, oh, I was in this shitty relationship and you 00:55:40.965 --> 00:55:45.345 know, I now I sort of, I'm a client with horses walking up and down breezeways 00:55:45.355 --> 00:55:48.645 of barns to feel better, which is a great thing for people like us to hear 00:55:48.645 --> 00:55:53.505 because I think we can forget sometimes as practitioners of the equine stuff that 00:55:53.755 --> 00:55:57.825 simply being around the horses is healing. 00:55:57.925 --> 00:56:01.115 You know, we all know this of course, but we're, you know, we, we get 00:56:01.265 --> 00:56:02.415 for the best of reasons, you know. 00:56:03.305 --> 00:56:05.965 Tied up with trying to provide the service that we provide and sometimes 00:56:05.965 --> 00:56:09.785 we forget actually it's just being there is, you know, sometimes enough 00:56:10.955 --> 00:56:17.805 Letting the horses do their thing just by being who they are But okay that shitty 00:56:17.805 --> 00:56:19.525 relationship that you're talking about. 00:56:21.295 --> 00:56:30.000 I think you're talking about how people survive relationships I know that you're 00:56:31.950 --> 00:56:37.940 being rather modest about some of the shit you've had to go through in order to reach 00:56:37.940 --> 00:56:41.010 the point where you can help other people going through their shit, basically. 00:56:41.360 --> 00:56:46.580 Can you just talk through whatever you feel to talk through that helped? 00:56:46.610 --> 00:56:51.900 Because, again, a lot of us that are coming into this equine assisted world, 00:56:52.380 --> 00:56:55.050 we're coming from vastly different backgrounds, and, of course, you can't 00:56:55.050 --> 00:56:58.690 be a perfect person Human being alive on planet Earth for more than a certain 00:56:58.690 --> 00:57:02.010 amount of time without going through some trauma It's just part and parcel of 00:57:02.350 --> 00:57:03.640 the experience of being on the planet. 00:57:04.090 --> 00:57:04.800 However 00:57:07.910 --> 00:57:09.740 Certain types can be more acute than others. 00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:16.340 So talk us through Where you begin and then bring us up to now and then why 00:57:16.520 --> 00:57:23.740 hypnotherapy and then I we haven't touched at all on the eye stuff and That listeners 00:57:23.740 --> 00:57:28.830 is how I really connected with Christine She did her eye thing which he's going 00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:35.640 to tell us about with me and it healed Some stuff in me that needed healing. 00:57:37.210 --> 00:57:40.435 Bring us please from where you start to where you end Up to 00:57:40.435 --> 00:57:42.175 now through all that, please. 00:57:42.175 --> 00:57:48.085 And then perhaps how it now informs what you do with the horses. 00:57:50.275 --> 00:57:50.585 Christine Dickson: Sure. 00:57:50.585 --> 00:57:57.125 I'll try to, I'll try not to turn this into a boring recount of my childhood. 00:57:57.675 --> 00:57:59.905 Like, we'll hit on the highlights. 00:58:00.295 --> 00:58:01.275 That's the highlight reel. 00:58:02.055 --> 00:58:02.415 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:58:03.855 --> 00:58:08.315 Christine Dickson: Where I was born was in Cleveland, Ohio, but that's just 00:58:08.425 --> 00:58:15.565 my mom was a hippie and my father was just getting out of the Vietnam war. 00:58:16.755 --> 00:58:20.385 But there's a lot of addiction, a lot of alcoholism in my family 00:58:21.205 --> 00:58:25.595 and what I've learned as an adult. 00:58:25.955 --> 00:58:28.815 There was a lot more mental health issues. 00:58:28.815 --> 00:58:32.155 Then I realized because that was my normal. 00:58:32.155 --> 00:58:39.495 I didn't have anything to compare my growing up to a quote, 00:58:39.495 --> 00:58:40.505 unquote, healthy growing up. 00:58:40.505 --> 00:58:47.855 So, this has been an ongoing discovery for myself, but my mother just was 00:58:47.855 --> 00:58:51.815 not healthy enough to raise a child. 00:58:51.815 --> 00:58:56.135 So my grandmother through court order took me from her when I was 2 and a half 00:58:58.555 --> 00:58:59.525 due to neglect. 00:59:00.035 --> 00:59:01.255 And other issues. 00:59:01.265 --> 00:59:01.825 So 00:59:04.395 --> 00:59:13.115 I, you know, I kind of grew up really knowing what it's like to feel like you 00:59:13.115 --> 00:59:15.355 don't really have a place of belonging. 00:59:15.855 --> 00:59:19.015 My grandmother did her best and she was wonderful. 00:59:19.175 --> 00:59:23.605 I am grateful to her every day, but you know, I wanted to be in a family 00:59:23.615 --> 00:59:29.715 with other kids and siblings and young parents who did fun things and. 00:59:30.215 --> 00:59:35.585 I did get some of that by going to my aunts in summers and, and holidays, but 00:59:38.815 --> 00:59:46.525 I think that there was also, there was a, a, a fear of the adults in my life of what 00:59:46.525 --> 00:59:52.175 I turn out to be like my mother, because as I grew up my mother's mental health 00:59:52.175 --> 00:59:57.225 issues and her manipulation and violence. 00:59:57.600 --> 01:00:00.160 And chaos just grew 01:00:02.450 --> 01:00:04.170 and she kept having children. 01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.210 There's five of us with five different fathers. 01:00:10.930 --> 01:00:15.910 So it was, you know, always managing the train wreck that my mother was creating. 01:00:17.010 --> 01:00:17.610 So 01:00:20.430 --> 01:00:26.900 fast forward to when I was in, I lived with my aunt. 01:00:28.845 --> 01:00:35.535 In my freshman year and halfway into my sophomore year and you know, to, to 01:00:35.535 --> 01:00:45.315 protect people in my family, I won't go into exactly what happened, but there 01:00:45.315 --> 01:00:54.075 was a series of events that happened and lies told that cast me into. 01:00:55.260 --> 01:00:59.340 A view of looking like I was, you know, you're just like your mother. 01:00:59.340 --> 01:01:03.800 I got thrown out of their house ended up at my grandmother's. 01:01:04.330 --> 01:01:10.100 My mother at the same time found herself homeless and was living at my 01:01:10.110 --> 01:01:16.955 grandmother's pregnant with my sister, Katie, and with my young sister, Kimmy. 01:01:18.005 --> 01:01:21.635 Being about I guess she was probably like five or six and so 01:01:23.955 --> 01:01:28.105 the idea was I was gonna live with my mother So I get moved in with my 01:01:28.105 --> 01:01:34.765 mother and I'll just fast forward to After my sister was born a few months 01:01:34.765 --> 01:01:39.735 later My mother was itching to get back to the bar one of the drinking buddy 01:01:40.305 --> 01:01:44.585 when I didn't want to go alone So she would leave my little sisters with 01:01:44.585 --> 01:01:55.935 the neighbor and take me to biker bars When I was 15, 16, around that age and 01:01:58.415 --> 01:02:03.755 I mean, when I talk about this stuff, I have to tell you, it's like I'm 01:02:03.755 --> 01:02:11.435 talking about a movie I saw because it's so bizarre to me how much 01:02:11.435 --> 01:02:16.725 happened in such a small period of time and how absolutely insane it was. 01:02:16.825 --> 01:02:19.225 You know, by bringing me to these biker bars. 01:02:20.635 --> 01:02:26.875 I mean, I had guns put in my face, I was in high speed chases I was in vans with 01:02:27.095 --> 01:02:32.055 strange men, like, my mother would leave me with strange men, the fact that nothing 01:02:32.565 --> 01:02:38.055 terrible happened to me is, I swear I have guardian angels watching over me 01:02:38.055 --> 01:02:41.805 because the, the situations I was put in, 01:02:44.365 --> 01:02:48.085 and that the fact that that stuff didn't happen is, is just insane. 01:02:48.685 --> 01:02:49.175 But. 01:02:50.915 --> 01:02:58.505 When you have a young teenager who is living in this chaos, who is 01:02:58.505 --> 01:03:03.315 defiant, I was very defiant, I was very angry about a lot of things. 01:03:03.605 --> 01:03:09.595 And I never had a father, and I meet this older man who thinks I am just 01:03:09.595 --> 01:03:11.285 the best thing since sliced bread. 01:03:12.355 --> 01:03:18.555 And takes me under his wing, and I fell madly in love with him. 01:03:18.945 --> 01:03:21.375 I was 16, he was 34. 01:03:23.585 --> 01:03:24.485 And, 01:03:26.805 --> 01:03:29.125 you know, I haven't shared this before, but 01:03:33.505 --> 01:03:43.005 the first time I ever did a drug other than smoking weed, which I hated because 01:03:43.005 --> 01:03:49.085 it just made me paranoid I didn't get the attraction was with my mother my 01:03:49.085 --> 01:03:58.875 mother and the group of people that she associated with were into snorting meth. 01:03:59.930 --> 01:04:06.220 And so that was given to me when I was about, I think I was 16 is around 01:04:06.220 --> 01:04:09.930 the time I met my kid's dad and so 01:04:12.750 --> 01:04:17.110 we, I would go off to weekends with him and we would do math 01:04:19.240 --> 01:04:25.080 and I just was enamored with it was followed him off the ends of the earth. 01:04:25.230 --> 01:04:27.960 Like, he was. 01:04:29.240 --> 01:04:32.820 My God in a way, you know, he was everything and he was in the fact that 01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:39.540 he was scary on some really primitive level Because I felt so hurt by the 01:04:39.540 --> 01:04:43.840 rejection of my family and the people that I loved and the position I was in 01:04:43.860 --> 01:04:49.220 that I think on some level the scariness of him made me feel safe, you know, 01:04:49.260 --> 01:04:55.740 because he was strong and Nobody was going to hurt me if I was with him 01:04:58.140 --> 01:05:03.220 and one day when we had been away we would go on these like drives 01:05:03.220 --> 01:05:05.430 and I never knew what he was doing. 01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:09.200 You know, I, we get a hotel somewhere, I'd be left at the hotel. 01:05:09.200 --> 01:05:12.770 He would go visit people or do whatever he did, or I'd sit in the 01:05:12.770 --> 01:05:14.250 car outside of people's houses. 01:05:15.070 --> 01:05:16.270 We're driving back. 01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:20.650 He's crashing next to me. 01:05:20.650 --> 01:05:22.020 So he's like nodding off. 01:05:22.021 --> 01:05:24.450 I was doing the driving, but I didn't have a driver's license. 01:05:25.345 --> 01:05:32.305 And we got pulled over and yeah, turns out there was five 01:05:32.305 --> 01:05:33.355 pounds of meth in the trunk. 01:05:35.530 --> 01:05:40.590 And that caused a complete 01:05:43.340 --> 01:05:46.080 jumping of tracks for my life. 01:05:48.330 --> 01:05:53.510 I was a juvenile, so I went to juvenile hall and I didn't even know I was there. 01:05:53.550 --> 01:05:54.800 I didn't know there was anything in it. 01:05:54.800 --> 01:05:58.630 I didn't know why I thought the reason I was held was because when my mother 01:05:58.960 --> 01:06:01.760 was mad at me, she had reported me as a runaway because she didn't want 01:06:01.760 --> 01:06:03.960 me to go away with him for a weekend. 01:06:04.560 --> 01:06:06.570 And so she never took that off. 01:06:06.610 --> 01:06:08.970 So I thought I was being arrested because. 01:06:09.765 --> 01:06:11.785 I was still on the books as a runaway. 01:06:12.825 --> 01:06:13.995 When I figured this out, 01:06:16.735 --> 01:06:18.215 I didn't know what to think. 01:06:18.305 --> 01:06:21.955 I was more dependent on him now because this was his world, you know, he 01:06:21.955 --> 01:06:26.745 was, he had been arrested a million times before and I needed him now 01:06:26.745 --> 01:06:30.805 to help me and it kind of forged me. 01:06:31.235 --> 01:06:37.855 In this relationship and when the government was going to move to certify 01:06:37.855 --> 01:06:39.635 me as an adult we went on the run 01:06:42.305 --> 01:06:46.715 and I lived for four and a half years under aliases and moving and. 01:06:47.140 --> 01:06:54.010 I had two kids under aliases and during that time, he became addicted 01:06:54.010 --> 01:06:59.890 to drugs and became more and more terrifying and abusive and I felt I 01:06:59.890 --> 01:07:04.690 had nowhere to go because if I went home, I would be arrested and I, my 01:07:04.700 --> 01:07:10.680 family didn't either have the money or the knowledge of how to navigate 01:07:11.730 --> 01:07:14.250 the judicial system in this country. 01:07:14.250 --> 01:07:14.985 And. 01:07:17.235 --> 01:07:22.145 The, and during this time, he was actually going back and showing up for 01:07:22.145 --> 01:07:27.895 his cases because he, the search was, it was like an illegal search and seizure. 01:07:27.895 --> 01:07:31.585 So he was, he ended up winning the case after 4 and a half years 01:07:31.785 --> 01:07:34.375 on the fact that they didn't have a warrant to search the car. 01:07:34.375 --> 01:07:36.755 They didn't have, they did a lot of things because they knew who he was. 01:07:37.305 --> 01:07:42.675 So, you know, my family found out, no, I'm, I'm jumping. 01:07:44.615 --> 01:07:45.185 So 01:07:47.435 --> 01:07:48.425 he wins the case. 01:07:50.650 --> 01:08:02.820 I had spent from 18 to 22 and a half with, you know, no friends, no, but like, no 01:08:02.820 --> 01:08:11.260 life just on hold waiting and then living with this really unpredictable human. 01:08:11.790 --> 01:08:16.280 And so I was so excited to move home and so we did I kind of took him 01:08:16.280 --> 01:08:19.160 driving and streaming because I was, you know, Moving back, I was going 01:08:19.160 --> 01:08:24.190 to have a life and what we didn't know was that five pounds of meth in 01:08:24.190 --> 01:08:26.080 the trunk is also a federal offense. 01:08:28.030 --> 01:08:35.170 So, even though he had won a state case, the feds had charged him in a sealed 01:08:35.170 --> 01:08:40.060 indictment, which meant that when we moved back, we were being surveilled 01:08:40.070 --> 01:08:45.890 for a year, followed in airplanes and helicopters and all kinds of crazy 01:08:45.890 --> 01:08:47.750 stuff, phones tapped, all of that. 01:08:48.110 --> 01:08:53.770 And one day there was a knock on the door and it was the police. 01:08:54.790 --> 01:08:59.170 And all of a sudden the agents came out from the woods, they came out 01:08:59.170 --> 01:09:06.790 from behind the barn, they came out from everywhere, and I was on the 11 01:09:06.790 --> 01:09:12.850 o'clock news, that's how my family knew, so it was a huge bust, huge bust, 01:09:15.100 --> 01:09:17.140 Rupert Isaacson: and What were they busting you for at that point? 01:09:17.140 --> 01:09:19.670 Because the 5 pounds of meth was years before. 01:09:20.710 --> 01:09:24.640 Christine Dickson: Well, it was still that char, so here's, yeah, there's 01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:29.340 so much to the story that when I try to whittle it down I can miss bits. 01:09:29.950 --> 01:09:30.660 Key pieces. 01:09:30.670 --> 01:09:35.440 So because the 5 pounds of meth was also a federal offense. 01:09:35.480 --> 01:09:40.330 It's like new charges, even though he won state, those state charges. 01:09:40.340 --> 01:09:41.790 Now he's facing the same. 01:09:41.810 --> 01:09:43.530 We're both facing the same charges. 01:09:44.030 --> 01:09:48.730 Same exact crime, but now from a federal level, but they had also surveilled 01:09:48.730 --> 01:09:53.480 him and the during those 4 and a half years that we were living on the run, 01:09:53.480 --> 01:09:55.590 he was actually manufacturing meth. 01:09:56.115 --> 01:09:56.275 Rupert Isaacson: I see. 01:09:56.325 --> 01:09:59.385 Christine Dickson: In order to finance us to live. 01:10:00.785 --> 01:10:05.545 And he had friends and people he knew that were working, turned against him because 01:10:05.545 --> 01:10:06.975 they had got caught for other things. 01:10:06.975 --> 01:10:07.555 So. 01:10:08.005 --> 01:10:09.395 There was informants. 01:10:09.395 --> 01:10:09.425 This 01:10:09.795 --> 01:10:11.235 Rupert Isaacson: is breaking bad, basically. 01:10:11.355 --> 01:10:11.915 Christine Dickson: Yes. 01:10:12.095 --> 01:10:12.415 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:10:12.615 --> 01:10:12.795 Yeah. 01:10:12.895 --> 01:10:13.235 Yeah. 01:10:14.185 --> 01:10:16.985 Christine Dickson: And I think he became addicted because when you, 01:10:17.015 --> 01:10:20.595 when you make meth in its liquid form, when you're making it it 01:10:20.595 --> 01:10:21.815 will go right through the skin. 01:10:22.165 --> 01:10:22.545 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:10:22.615 --> 01:10:26.455 Christine Dickson: And because he didn't wear gloves, he was constantly getting it 01:10:26.455 --> 01:10:31.025 and then he, and then would want more than start doing, you know, it was a process. 01:10:31.035 --> 01:10:35.945 So, but things were, even though we had moved back and even though he was. 01:10:38.315 --> 01:10:40.005 Yeah, it was, it was really bad. 01:10:40.365 --> 01:10:46.455 So I remember they drove us down. 01:10:46.525 --> 01:10:50.225 I got driven down to the Philadelphia they call it pick it's it's the 01:10:50.555 --> 01:10:56.565 county jail and there were five wards and 80 women on a ward. 01:10:56.575 --> 01:10:57.305 And I, 01:10:59.935 --> 01:11:03.555 everyone, all the women in there thought I was in there for DUI, cause they had 01:11:03.895 --> 01:11:04.960 no idea why this thing was happening. 01:11:06.090 --> 01:11:11.700 You know, 23 year old girl that looks like she's 15 is doing in jail. 01:11:12.400 --> 01:11:13.640 And then they saw the news. 01:11:13.670 --> 01:11:17.800 And when I woke up, I remember the first day waking up in there. 01:11:18.580 --> 01:11:24.470 And the craziest thing was that other than my children who were 01:11:24.470 --> 01:11:31.520 staying with friends, other than that, I felt like I had been saved. 01:11:32.360 --> 01:11:36.750 Like the thought was, it's finally over. 01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:41.340 Because I didn't think I would ever be able to leave him. 01:11:41.970 --> 01:11:43.630 I don't know how I would ever get away. 01:11:44.005 --> 01:11:45.035 He was terrified. 01:11:46.075 --> 01:11:49.875 And he, you know, there was lots of threats. 01:11:51.505 --> 01:11:54.925 So I was free. 01:11:55.195 --> 01:11:56.475 I was in jail and I was free. 01:11:59.995 --> 01:12:02.125 And so it took 15 months. 01:12:03.865 --> 01:12:07.255 I had to plead guilty to 20 something felonies, 01:12:09.305 --> 01:12:11.315 but he agreed to plead guilty to get me out. 01:12:12.755 --> 01:12:13.845 Rupert Isaacson: So he did the decent thing. 01:12:14.185 --> 01:12:14.915 Christine Dickson: Absolutely. 01:12:17.405 --> 01:12:18.415 He pled guilty. 01:12:19.155 --> 01:12:24.405 Got 10 years to get me out and back to our children. 01:12:26.425 --> 01:12:26.935 Yes, he did. 01:12:26.975 --> 01:12:31.535 Rupert Isaacson: But ultimately, despite the threats, despite all that, when Well, 01:12:31.545 --> 01:12:32.605 Christine Dickson: that's the thing 01:12:32.615 --> 01:12:33.935 Rupert Isaacson: Bush came to shove, he 01:12:35.015 --> 01:12:35.975 Christine Dickson: That's the thing, Rupert 01:12:36.525 --> 01:12:36.975 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting 01:12:37.035 --> 01:12:42.925 Christine Dickson: That's it, that this is what makes people stay 01:12:42.925 --> 01:12:48.615 in relationships sometimes too, is because people aren't all bad. 01:12:48.685 --> 01:12:49.265 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure. 01:12:49.755 --> 01:12:50.065 Christine Dickson: Right? 01:12:50.065 --> 01:12:53.515 So we cling on to these aspects. 01:12:54.130 --> 01:12:58.750 these crumbs or these pieces that we go, well, these don't add up. 01:12:58.770 --> 01:13:02.330 Like this is a person, this is a stand up person, right? 01:13:04.140 --> 01:13:07.630 But yet they're my biggest threat. 01:13:10.240 --> 01:13:12.980 Rupert Isaacson: Did he subsequently reverse and then 01:13:12.980 --> 01:13:14.470 come and become a threat again? 01:13:14.490 --> 01:13:19.090 Or from that point on, was he always kind of on your side? 01:13:23.080 --> 01:13:24.430 Christine Dickson: He was, 01:13:27.510 --> 01:13:30.290 he wanted to maintain control over me. 01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:30.810 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:13:32.090 --> 01:13:34.100 Christine Dickson: From jail through. 01:13:34.140 --> 01:13:35.270 Rupert Isaacson: So it wasn't completely clean. 01:13:37.140 --> 01:13:37.840 Christine Dickson: So. 01:13:38.835 --> 01:13:45.885 Which then started me having to move a lot and feeling like I was being sought after. 01:13:45.886 --> 01:13:46.775 So 01:13:48.155 --> 01:13:49.545 Rupert Isaacson: you sort of had to go on the run again? 01:13:52.075 --> 01:13:52.435 Christine Dickson: Yeah. 01:13:52.645 --> 01:13:53.755 Rupert Isaacson: And how long did that last? 01:13:55.265 --> 01:13:56.765 Christine Dickson: Years, years. 01:13:56.875 --> 01:13:58.345 What was interesting is that 01:14:01.455 --> 01:14:05.285 I sometimes would question whether I was just being paranoid. 01:14:07.290 --> 01:14:10.030 But, you know, he had put that paranoia in me too. 01:14:10.040 --> 01:14:14.270 He had told me one time that if people, if certain bad people knew or 01:14:14.280 --> 01:14:19.440 believed and thought that I knew how to make math, that they would kidnap 01:14:19.440 --> 01:14:23.440 me in order to get that information. 01:14:23.940 --> 01:14:28.090 So, and there was a lot of people that were his friends that were not happy 01:14:28.510 --> 01:14:30.830 that he pled guilty and that I got out. 01:14:32.105 --> 01:14:38.805 And I found out years later that there were places that I had left 01:14:38.805 --> 01:14:43.915 and moved and within weeks they had tracked me down to those places. 01:14:43.915 --> 01:14:49.445 Now whether or not there was nefarious intent or it was just about getting 01:14:49.445 --> 01:14:52.375 me back to bringing the kids. 01:14:52.375 --> 01:14:54.555 You know, I also just didn't really 01:14:56.795 --> 01:15:01.165 want to be bringing my kids to prisons all the time for visits. 01:15:01.205 --> 01:15:02.755 And there was a lot of. 01:15:03.480 --> 01:15:09.030 There was a lot of racism and, and horrible views that I didn't want 01:15:09.030 --> 01:15:12.610 them exposed to as young children, you know, if, if they get exposed 01:15:12.620 --> 01:15:15.860 to that as a, as young adults, they already have the framework, 01:15:16.780 --> 01:15:19.820 but I didn't want that for them. 01:15:23.970 --> 01:15:26.500 Rupert Isaacson: What became of this person in the end? 01:15:27.930 --> 01:15:30.370 Christine Dickson: Oh yeah, so I wish I could say that that was the 01:15:30.370 --> 01:15:34.690 last bad relationship I had, but I had to do it again just to be sure. 01:15:34.800 --> 01:15:35.340 But. 01:15:35.675 --> 01:15:37.225 In probably like 01:15:39.325 --> 01:15:42.785 2005, I'm thinking he tracked me down. 01:15:42.785 --> 01:15:47.145 He got, had got out of jail and his girlfriend was like, 01:15:47.145 --> 01:15:49.255 kind of like super hacker. 01:15:51.415 --> 01:15:55.425 Internet genius and anyway, she tracked me down. 01:15:55.445 --> 01:15:59.955 She had like Google aerial views of the house I was living in and, 01:16:00.445 --> 01:16:04.635 and he convinced his daughter who I always loved very much. 01:16:04.635 --> 01:16:07.825 He had four children before we were together and his daughter 01:16:09.005 --> 01:16:10.585 was coming out to California. 01:16:10.685 --> 01:16:16.235 With her fiancee and he convinced her to come and reconnect with me. 01:16:16.245 --> 01:16:21.725 So that was a trippy day within minutes to be on the phone with him after not 01:16:21.735 --> 01:16:24.275 talking to him for years and years. 01:16:25.295 --> 01:16:33.805 But he I don't think he ever really got over his propensity for meth. 01:16:34.455 --> 01:16:39.395 And I think he was probably still doing it. 01:16:39.405 --> 01:16:43.945 He, in 2014 15 he died of a heart attack. 01:16:47.895 --> 01:16:49.595 Rupert Isaacson: Did you feel a great sense of relief and 01:16:49.595 --> 01:16:50.655 did that make you feel guilty? 01:16:55.665 --> 01:16:58.245 Christine Dickson: I didn't feel relief to be honest with you. 01:16:58.745 --> 01:17:02.095 Because I had already reclaimed my life. 01:17:02.155 --> 01:17:08.435 I, he didn't hold any kind of fear for me. 01:17:09.055 --> 01:17:14.005 I felt sadness for my children who had been trying their best to have 01:17:14.425 --> 01:17:16.965 some form of relationship with him. 01:17:17.435 --> 01:17:22.115 You know, nobody goes, he ended up spending more than 10 years in jail 01:17:22.175 --> 01:17:27.215 and nobody goes through that without having it affect them in very deep ways. 01:17:27.225 --> 01:17:30.545 He was unable to be present at all. 01:17:30.605 --> 01:17:33.845 He talked at, at you more than to you. 01:17:33.845 --> 01:17:38.245 They had a really hard time connecting with him to have some kind of idea 01:17:38.245 --> 01:17:41.035 of who their father was and it was very hard on them when he died. 01:17:41.585 --> 01:17:45.085 Not because there was a great love there, but because of what 01:17:45.785 --> 01:17:47.845 the loss of what could have been. 01:17:50.495 --> 01:17:58.905 And I just felt sadness because of the choices he made. 01:18:00.305 --> 01:18:05.465 He could have had so much more love in his life and such a better impact. 01:18:05.505 --> 01:18:08.205 But, you know, there's an aspect of him that knew that 01:18:08.205 --> 01:18:12.475 he wasn't well, and, you know, 01:18:14.545 --> 01:18:17.025 that it was probably good that he wasn't around the kids when he 01:18:17.025 --> 01:18:18.045 was young, when they were young. 01:18:21.630 --> 01:18:26.320 Rupert Isaacson: You're a young mother, you have your kids on the run, then 01:18:26.320 --> 01:18:31.930 you're arrested and you're in jail for 15 months while your children are very small. 01:18:32.780 --> 01:18:33.230 Mm hmm. 01:18:33.560 --> 01:18:34.590 How did you survive that? 01:18:34.950 --> 01:18:38.720 That's enough to 01:18:40.830 --> 01:18:41.410 take one down. 01:18:41.430 --> 01:18:44.500 You know, talk us through the survival process of that. 01:18:48.340 --> 01:18:51.040 Christine Dickson: I had never been away from my children. 01:18:53.460 --> 01:18:56.590 I don't think I had ever spent one night away from them. 01:18:56.600 --> 01:18:57.690 We were very close. 01:18:57.930 --> 01:19:03.380 And, When things like this happen, like, with any disaster that natural 01:19:03.380 --> 01:19:06.860 does, you know, everything slows down and you just do what you need to do in 01:19:06.860 --> 01:19:12.080 the moment and you don't have time or the luxury to think about the future 01:19:12.080 --> 01:19:14.290 or what, you know, and so I think that 01:19:16.570 --> 01:19:23.420 once I had once they were picked up from the police station. 01:19:25.690 --> 01:19:29.200 My job was to not fall apart in front of them and then I 01:19:29.200 --> 01:19:30.740 could fall apart when they left. 01:19:31.960 --> 01:19:35.190 And I'll never forget the first conversation I had with my 01:19:35.190 --> 01:19:41.720 daughter because she was, she was four and or three, was she? 01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:43.100 No, two and a half. 01:19:44.170 --> 01:19:49.860 So she was, it was a couple months before her fourth birthday and 01:19:52.040 --> 01:19:59.500 the first phone call I had with her took a few days to get to, but she was hysterical 01:20:01.780 --> 01:20:04.030 and she was saying, come get me mommy, come get me. 01:20:06.655 --> 01:20:09.025 And I broke. 01:20:10.675 --> 01:20:11.425 I just, 01:20:14.095 --> 01:20:15.925 my knees buckled and 01:20:19.095 --> 01:20:20.985 I, there was nothing I could do. 01:20:23.465 --> 01:20:29.335 The only thing that I could do was manage their care as 01:20:29.335 --> 01:20:33.445 best I could from where I was. 01:20:33.795 --> 01:20:34.875 Rupert Isaacson: How, how did you do that? 01:20:36.525 --> 01:20:37.095 Where were they? 01:20:37.970 --> 01:20:42.045 Christine Dickson: So, you know, it wasn't perfect. 01:20:42.195 --> 01:20:44.150 They were at first at. 01:20:44.650 --> 01:20:48.360 Their dad's ex, their half sister, brother, or their half 01:20:48.360 --> 01:20:49.820 brother and half sister's house. 01:20:50.520 --> 01:20:54.020 But there wasn't really a parent in that house during the day, you know, it 01:20:54.020 --> 01:21:00.200 was like the teenage kids and it wasn't the, I'm hugely grateful because every 01:21:00.200 --> 01:21:03.550 other woman that was in there with me, their kids were taken into foster care. 01:21:04.060 --> 01:21:05.926 Rupert Isaacson: Right, that was going to be my question, how come they 01:21:05.926 --> 01:21:07.130 weren't taken as wards of the state? 01:21:07.560 --> 01:21:09.440 Christine Dickson: Because I had someone that could come get them. 01:21:09.470 --> 01:21:13.150 And because, you know, to be honest with you it really could 01:21:13.150 --> 01:21:14.170 have been, cause I was white, 01:21:16.430 --> 01:21:16.840 really. 01:21:16.840 --> 01:21:22.370 I mean, I, to think that that's not doesn't play into people, into 01:21:22.420 --> 01:21:25.860 things would be, you know, ignorant. 01:21:26.415 --> 01:21:30.885 The other women that I was in jail, they were in jail with me, the women in the 01:21:30.885 --> 01:21:33.645 federal system were almost all Latina. 01:21:35.415 --> 01:21:40.665 And a lot of them didn't speak English and yeah, and their kids 01:21:40.665 --> 01:21:42.055 were taken into foster care. 01:21:42.155 --> 01:21:44.255 I don't know if it's because they didn't have, 01:21:46.705 --> 01:21:50.515 didn't have representation, if they didn't have people that they could go with. 01:21:50.835 --> 01:21:51.615 I don't, I don't know. 01:21:51.725 --> 01:21:53.265 I did have a lawyer, pretty. 01:21:53.555 --> 01:21:54.125 Quickly. 01:21:54.365 --> 01:21:54.985 So, 01:21:57.275 --> 01:22:01.285 but they ended up with them and then I had to get them out of there 01:22:01.915 --> 01:22:03.385 because it wasn't a good place. 01:22:03.425 --> 01:22:10.925 And they ended up going to a friend of my exes who had, we had visited before 01:22:11.315 --> 01:22:14.395 and they had a house and a pool and kids. 01:22:14.705 --> 01:22:20.985 And from my perspective, it was a stable home she stayed 01:22:20.985 --> 01:22:22.295 home and took care of the kids. 01:22:22.305 --> 01:22:23.585 He worked. 01:22:23.655 --> 01:22:29.415 It turned out to not be as good of an environment as I had hoped, but 01:22:29.485 --> 01:22:33.255 other people that were trying to step up, we're only willing to take 1 01:22:33.265 --> 01:22:35.585 child and I was not separating them. 01:22:36.205 --> 01:22:40.525 So the options weren't great. 01:22:41.185 --> 01:22:45.655 But they were the best that I could get and they could have been much worse. 01:22:48.775 --> 01:22:51.515 But that's, that's, you know, I've lived. 01:22:54.315 --> 01:22:59.355 One of the things that I think is so important when you have something 01:22:59.355 --> 01:23:05.465 like this happen in a family is to take responsibility for your 01:23:05.465 --> 01:23:10.295 role and to not be defensive. 01:23:10.335 --> 01:23:17.375 I've never been, I've always tried to raise my children with the 01:23:17.375 --> 01:23:22.345 understanding that their experience is their experience and that. 01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:28.370 You know, we could talk about how I was 16 when I met him, but I still 01:23:28.540 --> 01:23:32.150 hold accountability for what happened. 01:23:32.570 --> 01:23:39.270 And if they're ever upset with me or frustrated or sad, that's their right. 01:23:39.980 --> 01:23:43.140 And I'm, I don't defend myself. 01:23:43.140 --> 01:23:45.730 I'm not here to change their mind. 01:23:46.300 --> 01:23:49.360 I'm here to allow their experience to be their experience. 01:23:51.430 --> 01:23:56.930 And because of that, We don't have an elephant in the room. 01:23:59.630 --> 01:24:06.110 They don't feel that they can't tell me how they feel because somehow it'll hurt 01:24:06.110 --> 01:24:07.890 me so much I won't be able to take it. 01:24:09.080 --> 01:24:10.270 So they hold it all in. 01:24:18.470 --> 01:24:19.000 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you. 01:24:21.730 --> 01:24:26.300 When somebody shares a story that you, like the one that you just shared, 01:24:28.870 --> 01:24:35.190 it gives everybody else permission to have lived their 01:24:35.190 --> 01:24:36.930 lives too, if that makes sense. 01:24:36.980 --> 01:24:38.040 And you, 01:24:42.590 --> 01:24:43.420 you create healing. 01:24:45.905 --> 01:24:46.605 By, 01:24:51.395 --> 01:24:56.965 by sharing and what it also does, I think, for, you know, those of us who are 01:24:57.265 --> 01:25:03.115 working in the fields of mental health is, you don't know who's walking through 01:25:03.115 --> 01:25:07.505 the door and you don't know what fires they have to put out in their lives. 01:25:08.375 --> 01:25:09.935 All you can do is 01:25:12.105 --> 01:25:13.785 let the horses do what they do. 01:25:14.885 --> 01:25:20.175 And one cannot presume as a human to, it's so interesting is that 01:25:20.175 --> 01:25:21.585 we're all empathetic to each other. 01:25:21.655 --> 01:25:23.345 We're social creatures. 01:25:23.905 --> 01:25:26.515 We are basically empathetic to each other, thank God. 01:25:30.935 --> 01:25:34.345 But there's a limit to what we can 01:25:37.015 --> 01:25:38.835 offer each other for healing because 01:25:40.875 --> 01:25:44.805 of our own fires and egos and, and so on the horse doesn't come with that. 01:25:46.325 --> 01:25:50.625 And but by sharing a story like that, you come very, very close 01:25:50.625 --> 01:25:57.285 to the role that the horse does, which is you're saying, here I am 01:26:01.425 --> 01:26:03.205 having lived this experience. 01:26:09.395 --> 01:26:13.115 This allows you to be human too. 01:26:14.895 --> 01:26:17.505 I know that's not necessarily what you're consciously saying, but. 01:26:18.335 --> 01:26:22.955 I think when I think it's how it gets received and I think that this 01:26:22.965 --> 01:26:27.160 brings a very similar kind of healing to the type of healing a horse 01:26:27.160 --> 01:26:28.560 would bring or nature would bring. 01:26:29.060 --> 01:26:31.410 So for that, I'm extremely grateful. 01:26:31.960 --> 01:26:38.350 And I can see why somebody coming to your barn, this being the point of it 01:26:38.480 --> 01:26:43.010 sort of doesn't matter that your equine experience might be somewhat recent. 01:26:45.115 --> 01:26:48.755 With the type of experience that you've had in life, you are 01:26:50.695 --> 01:26:52.655 very well set up to help people. 01:26:53.535 --> 01:26:59.285 Now, you then go from this experience and some others 01:27:01.765 --> 01:27:05.085 into therapeutic modalities. 01:27:05.655 --> 01:27:08.005 I presume to some degree to help yourself out too. 01:27:09.275 --> 01:27:14.445 And you find yourself with hypnotherapy and then you find your way to IEMT. 01:27:14.705 --> 01:27:17.485 Please talk to us about why and tell us what they do. 01:27:19.645 --> 01:27:19.895 Christine Dickson: Yes. 01:27:20.645 --> 01:27:23.925 I do want to say 1 thing 1st, because I realized you asked me 01:27:23.925 --> 01:27:25.805 a question that I never answered. 01:27:26.365 --> 01:27:26.715 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:27:27.015 --> 01:27:28.305 Christine Dickson: Or never fully answered. 01:27:28.395 --> 01:27:32.635 And which was around the the idea of how. 01:27:34.615 --> 01:27:39.025 What would my maybe, what would I want to share with people who 01:27:39.025 --> 01:27:42.575 are doing the aquine work and. 01:27:43.275 --> 01:27:47.495 I think the biggest thing I see, and it doesn't matter how many degrees you have. 01:27:47.925 --> 01:27:50.275 Or what initials are behind your name. 01:27:50.275 --> 01:27:58.085 I see this happen a lot and this is where as any type of mental health 01:27:58.085 --> 01:28:02.815 work or any type of supportive work for people is so important to really, 01:28:02.815 --> 01:28:12.295 really develop a sense of when we're projecting onto people because we, if 01:28:12.295 --> 01:28:18.085 we allow ourselves to do that, we're going to get it wrong at some point and 01:28:18.085 --> 01:28:23.630 the way I see this happen is there's, there's Two ways in my experience. 01:28:25.030 --> 01:28:25.870 One is, 01:28:28.100 --> 01:28:29.200 my mother 01:28:33.690 --> 01:28:35.760 was something I survived 01:28:38.260 --> 01:28:42.740 and how beautiful is it that there are people in this world 01:28:42.790 --> 01:28:44.930 that can't even comprehend that. 01:28:44.931 --> 01:28:46.160 And 01:28:48.640 --> 01:28:52.080 there's people in this world that get very uncomfortable. 01:28:52.665 --> 01:28:59.665 If you say anything negative about your mother, if you tell people that 01:28:59.665 --> 01:29:05.855 you have had to limit your exposure to your mother, they can't understand. 01:29:09.125 --> 01:29:16.425 And I have had that happen in with people who were doing quote 01:29:16.425 --> 01:29:24.415 unquote, like force therapy type work where they projected onto me 01:29:26.725 --> 01:29:31.185 this idea that my family. 01:29:31.865 --> 01:29:37.615 Was my, were my ancestors and they were part of me and I had to be 01:29:37.615 --> 01:29:43.665 grateful for them and I had, and it was, it was not very informed. 01:29:43.815 --> 01:29:44.605 Put it that way 01:29:47.685 --> 01:29:50.555 and I think that this is. 01:29:51.090 --> 01:29:54.510 I've heard of this struggle with other people who have had parents 01:29:54.510 --> 01:29:59.280 that are so toxic that sometimes no contact is the only way to protect 01:29:59.280 --> 01:30:03.970 yourself and people don't understand and it gets people very uncomfortable. 01:30:04.620 --> 01:30:10.680 So, being able to see how we don't project that in our work is, is important. 01:30:10.980 --> 01:30:15.000 The other one is when you've been in a pathological love relationship 01:30:15.040 --> 01:30:19.980 or even pathological relationship as an adult child with a parent. 01:30:22.500 --> 01:30:25.140 There can be really unhealthy things that happen. 01:30:25.150 --> 01:30:29.130 One of the things is that the way pathological relations work is very 01:30:29.130 --> 01:30:33.820 similar to horse training, or at least the, the, the older model of horse 01:30:33.840 --> 01:30:39.910 training that is shifting, which is the idea of pressure and release pathological 01:30:40.000 --> 01:30:46.490 relationships become a pressure and release modality, which means that the 01:30:46.560 --> 01:30:52.520 uncomfortableness or the anger or the manipulation that's trying to happen. 01:30:53.035 --> 01:30:58.435 From the person with the pathological issue becomes a pressure that 01:30:58.435 --> 01:31:01.395 the only way we feel safe. 01:31:01.785 --> 01:31:06.145 Is that we have to relieve that pressure that could mean paying their bills. 01:31:06.195 --> 01:31:09.255 It could mean agreeing to not see our friends. 01:31:09.595 --> 01:31:12.125 It could mean a bunch of things. 01:31:12.155 --> 01:31:17.105 And those don't necessarily go away when you separate from that 01:31:17.105 --> 01:31:22.485 person because it's a power and they're trying to to wield and. 01:31:22.985 --> 01:31:27.165 For a long time, mental health professionals did not understand the 01:31:27.165 --> 01:31:35.055 dynamic and they would further shame the person who was being manipulated 01:31:35.055 --> 01:31:35.835 because they're going, wait a minute. 01:31:35.835 --> 01:31:36.545 I don't understand. 01:31:36.545 --> 01:31:38.335 You're not even together anymore. 01:31:39.895 --> 01:31:43.295 You're not even together anymore and you, and you've just paid 01:31:43.295 --> 01:31:44.485 their car payment for them? 01:31:44.495 --> 01:31:47.075 Like, what are you talking about? 01:31:48.535 --> 01:31:52.985 The person already feels shame for the fact that they did it. 01:31:55.935 --> 01:32:02.165 The threat of not doing it and the pressure of being able to resist 01:32:02.325 --> 01:32:05.785 all of the manipulation and all the ways that that person has 01:32:05.785 --> 01:32:09.875 shown you that they will burn it to the ground if you do not comply. 01:32:12.365 --> 01:32:16.875 Well, then it's a choice. 01:32:17.845 --> 01:32:19.855 That's not really doesn't feel like a choice. 01:32:19.855 --> 01:32:20.985 Do I want to die on this hill? 01:32:20.985 --> 01:32:22.275 Do I want to invite this in? 01:32:22.995 --> 01:32:28.865 It takes time and Sometimes those are the relationships like these are not 01:32:28.905 --> 01:32:33.265 clear cut These types of relationships are ones that people do that women 01:32:33.265 --> 01:32:37.115 do get killed the the you know People will say in abusive relationships 01:32:38.190 --> 01:32:39.220 Oh, why didn't you just leave? 01:32:39.220 --> 01:32:44.300 Or when you read about women who poisoned or, or, you know, ultimately 01:32:44.300 --> 01:32:47.970 killed their abuser and they'll go, why didn't they just leave? 01:32:48.000 --> 01:32:49.210 They could have just left. 01:32:50.490 --> 01:32:53.960 And what they don't understand is, and this, this isn't just to 01:32:53.960 --> 01:32:57.940 women, this is men too, men are in these relationships as well is that 01:32:57.940 --> 01:33:03.160 the point to which you are most vulnerable is when you decide to leave. 01:33:04.730 --> 01:33:08.570 Because you have started to demonstrate that you're no longer under the spell and 01:33:08.570 --> 01:33:12.100 you've connected to the fact that you have power and that's the thing that has been 01:33:12.100 --> 01:33:18.590 fought, has been the whole MO is for you to never believe that you have agency. 01:33:20.460 --> 01:33:23.180 And so when you start to believe that that needs to be taken down, 01:33:23.190 --> 01:33:25.700 and when you take that action is when 01:33:27.790 --> 01:33:29.740 the big retaliations can happen. 01:33:30.500 --> 01:33:35.910 So it's not true that people can just walk out and people don't have 01:33:36.310 --> 01:33:39.210 the support that there, it just doesn't exist in a lot of ways. 01:33:39.220 --> 01:33:39.640 So 01:33:41.800 --> 01:33:47.660 this is the one thing I wanted to say about the people that show up. 01:33:47.870 --> 01:33:52.710 Because a lot of times people who are in these relationships will show up for help. 01:33:54.550 --> 01:34:00.050 And you have to be careful of what help that you're suggesting, because if you 01:34:00.060 --> 01:34:07.220 don't know the actual situation and you suggest someone leave it without proper 01:34:07.220 --> 01:34:13.830 support, which is going to definitely go beyond your, your skill set, they could be 01:34:13.830 --> 01:34:15.810 getting into a more dangerous situation. 01:34:17.510 --> 01:34:22.040 And this is a type of brainwashing that takes years to undo. 01:34:23.165 --> 01:34:25.425 It's not intellectual. 01:34:25.435 --> 01:34:28.035 They already know they're being manipulated. 01:34:28.035 --> 01:34:30.745 They know that things don't add up and that they're stuck. 01:34:31.205 --> 01:34:32.935 They just don't know how to get out of it. 01:34:33.145 --> 01:34:34.255 Because it's a grind. 01:34:34.335 --> 01:34:35.465 You got ground down. 01:34:37.655 --> 01:34:41.465 So that, that is something that I feel very passionate about. 01:34:41.555 --> 01:34:48.255 And that I would say anybody, any other person doing this work 01:34:48.345 --> 01:34:52.870 that has any questions, if I would be happy to answer them. 01:34:53.410 --> 01:34:54.130 Answer. 01:34:54.380 --> 01:34:56.210 Rupert Isaacson: Well, this is going to be at the end of this. 01:34:56.310 --> 01:34:59.140 I'm sure I, and I'm sure a lot of people listening to say, can 01:34:59.140 --> 01:35:00.520 we come to you for mentorship? 01:35:00.650 --> 01:35:01.240 Because 01:35:04.180 --> 01:35:09.130 without a doubt, there are people who are facing this and as you say, it's 01:35:09.130 --> 01:35:12.740 male and female, as you say, it's all walks of life, as you say, you know, 01:35:13.610 --> 01:35:18.130 and I don't think there are many people with the skill set that you have who 01:35:18.130 --> 01:35:19.980 can advise on these things like you can. 01:35:19.980 --> 01:35:21.240 So we, we will get to you. 01:35:21.680 --> 01:35:26.310 There will be, so listeners, there will be a contact that you can go to Christine 01:35:26.310 --> 01:35:29.240 and get further mentorship on this. 01:35:29.360 --> 01:35:33.240 Talk to us about the hypnotherapy now and talk to us about the IEMT, please. 01:35:33.330 --> 01:35:36.730 And then how does that inform recovery? 01:35:38.415 --> 01:35:42.595 Christine Dickson: So hypnotherapy, we talked about the 88 percent being 01:35:42.595 --> 01:35:46.375 the subconscious and that's where our programming is the, the ways of 01:35:46.375 --> 01:35:51.185 seeing ourself and the world that let's say we didn't consciously choose. 01:35:51.215 --> 01:35:56.505 They were, you know, downloaded into us as children and society, all of these things. 01:35:58.305 --> 01:36:06.325 So the beauty of hypnotherapy is that you get access to that subconscious 01:36:06.325 --> 01:36:11.615 programming so you can start to make suggestions into the subconscious mind. 01:36:13.475 --> 01:36:21.725 To create knowns in the subconscious that will support your conscious decisions. 01:36:23.215 --> 01:36:30.685 So, if you know, if I want to like working out, you know, if I want to, 01:36:31.045 --> 01:36:37.125 I want to start working out, well, it's going to be helpful to have some 01:36:38.065 --> 01:36:44.205 suggestions made to the subconscious that connect you to the subconscious. 01:36:45.070 --> 01:36:49.850 Feelings, the why, the feelings of after a workout, the feelings of why I want to 01:36:49.850 --> 01:36:55.920 do this, what I'm, I'm reaching for health wise or body wise and feeling strong or 01:36:55.920 --> 01:37:01.000 what I'll be able to do and how I'll be able to support my body versus the pain 01:37:01.310 --> 01:37:06.260 being the forefront thought of the actual working out of how we don't want to do it 01:37:06.260 --> 01:37:08.190 or it's boring or it's this or it's that. 01:37:08.440 --> 01:37:13.980 So it's kind of like, you know, eating, eating foods. 01:37:14.805 --> 01:37:18.765 That you don't want to eat is very similar, sweets and stuff like that 01:37:18.765 --> 01:37:25.905 is very similar to drinking alcohol because we want that positive feeling 01:37:25.905 --> 01:37:30.825 that we get right in the beginning and our mind completely gaslights us 01:37:30.825 --> 01:37:32.785 about what the effect is afterwards. 01:37:32.785 --> 01:37:34.295 It doesn't even show it to us. 01:37:34.295 --> 01:37:36.055 Don't think about what's afterwards. 01:37:36.055 --> 01:37:38.915 Just let's just focus on that initial feeling. 01:37:40.520 --> 01:37:42.800 And then after we do, it's like, we wake up and go, now we're 01:37:42.800 --> 01:37:44.340 dealing with the after effects. 01:37:44.340 --> 01:37:47.010 And it's like, why was I, I was like under a trance before. 01:37:47.360 --> 01:37:47.570 Well, 01:37:47.570 --> 01:37:49.460 Rupert Isaacson: dopamine, dopamine is a strong thing, right? 01:37:49.510 --> 01:37:49.750 Yeah. 01:37:50.050 --> 01:37:50.820 Christine Dickson: Yes. 01:37:51.680 --> 01:37:52.020 Yeah. 01:37:52.020 --> 01:37:57.170 So that's, so that's the, that's just a little aspect of hypnotherapy. 01:37:57.880 --> 01:38:02.610 IAMT, you know, I've, I've, I've been exposed to a ton of other modalities. 01:38:02.660 --> 01:38:03.140 What does IAMT 01:38:03.800 --> 01:38:04.290 Rupert Isaacson: stand for? 01:38:04.680 --> 01:38:06.450 Christine Dickson: It's Integral Eye Movement Therapy or 01:38:06.470 --> 01:38:07.960 Integral Eye Movement Technique. 01:38:07.960 --> 01:38:09.920 IAMT So, 01:38:10.210 --> 01:38:10.930 Rupert Isaacson: how's it work? 01:38:12.020 --> 01:38:12.970 Christine Dickson: How it works is 01:38:16.160 --> 01:38:18.790 our mind's body, our mind's body. 01:38:18.860 --> 01:38:19.300 Wow. 01:38:19.630 --> 01:38:24.980 Our mind's First and foremost goal is to keep us alive. 01:38:25.820 --> 01:38:27.220 Rupert Isaacson: I love our mind's body 01:38:27.600 --> 01:38:28.740 Christine Dickson: Our mind's body. 01:38:28.750 --> 01:38:29.930 It was it was almost like a 01:38:29.930 --> 01:38:30.260 Rupert Isaacson: body. 01:38:30.260 --> 01:38:32.940 Our mind does think of our body as its property. 01:38:32.990 --> 01:38:34.580 Yeah, it's very interesting Yeah, yeah. 01:38:34.580 --> 01:38:34.840 Yeah. 01:38:35.020 --> 01:38:35.290 Okay. 01:38:35.650 --> 01:38:37.890 Okay So 01:38:39.800 --> 01:38:44.530 Christine Dickson: now the interesting thing is that because it wants to keep 01:38:44.530 --> 01:38:49.140 us alive, it wants us to avoid pain because logically pain can lead to 01:38:49.140 --> 01:38:55.770 death, but the mind doesn't differentiate between physical and emotional pain. 01:38:55.860 --> 01:38:58.760 Pain is pain and pain needs to be avoided. 01:39:02.170 --> 01:39:09.930 So the way I see it is that when, if you know anything about internal 01:39:09.930 --> 01:39:15.330 family systems or I have IFS, the premises is that when we're a kid. 01:39:16.525 --> 01:39:21.525 This almost internal family gets formed in our minds and the predominant. 01:39:22.065 --> 01:39:25.085 Role is the manager and this is what it looks like. 01:39:25.995 --> 01:39:26.815 I'm a little kid. 01:39:26.875 --> 01:39:27.805 I'm three years old. 01:39:27.845 --> 01:39:29.825 I'm wide open, right? 01:39:29.875 --> 01:39:30.875 I'm wide open. 01:39:31.255 --> 01:39:32.855 Hey, I don't have any defenses. 01:39:32.855 --> 01:39:38.835 I don't have any protections up yet And I find a frog in the backyard and i'm so 01:39:38.835 --> 01:39:42.175 excited and I take my frog in the house and i'm like mommy Mommy, look at my frog. 01:39:42.175 --> 01:39:45.225 Look what I found and she's like I told you to get out of here 01:39:45.265 --> 01:39:46.535 I'm in the middle of something. 01:39:46.905 --> 01:39:51.855 Why are you such a pain in the ass all the time get outside and play? 01:39:54.160 --> 01:39:59.080 Well, all of that openness, that is like a collapse. 01:40:00.600 --> 01:40:01.640 It's a collapse. 01:40:01.700 --> 01:40:04.920 It is a deep, deep wound. 01:40:07.600 --> 01:40:10.880 And in that moment, a manager gets formed, 01:40:13.860 --> 01:40:15.920 because we don't want to feel that pain ever again. 01:40:18.030 --> 01:40:21.100 And the manager goes, stupid, look what you did, stupid. 01:40:23.470 --> 01:40:24.560 Don't do that again. 01:40:25.030 --> 01:40:26.330 Just play with yourself. 01:40:26.890 --> 01:40:28.250 You don't need anybody else. 01:40:31.805 --> 01:40:38.465 And that manager from that point on is always looking for ways that 01:40:38.475 --> 01:40:45.005 that stupid part of you is going to be open and get hurt again. 01:40:47.095 --> 01:40:50.685 And that part of you that got hurt becomes what they call the exile 01:40:50.695 --> 01:40:57.275 and it gets put in a box and it gets thrown in the dungeon and it is exile. 01:40:57.275 --> 01:40:58.995 We cannot trust that part of you. 01:41:01.425 --> 01:41:06.815 And as we all know, children learn how to regulate their nervous 01:41:06.815 --> 01:41:08.525 system through co regulation. 01:41:09.515 --> 01:41:11.255 And when you don't have a parent. 01:41:12.105 --> 01:41:16.995 That you can go to when either you're super happy or super sad or super scared 01:41:17.215 --> 01:41:22.725 that will hold you and listen to you and let you use their nervous system to bring 01:41:22.985 --> 01:41:28.355 yourself back down and you go, well, I'm just going to have to do it for myself. 01:41:29.130 --> 01:41:34.640 You can't do co regulation for yourself, but what you can do is you can dissociate 01:41:37.550 --> 01:41:39.760 and that starts to feel like a superpower 01:41:41.910 --> 01:41:46.250 and you become more and more intellectual and you intellectualize things and you 01:41:46.260 --> 01:41:49.060 go, you know, that doesn't hurt me. 01:41:49.080 --> 01:41:50.700 Yeah, I don't get bothered by that stuff. 01:41:50.930 --> 01:41:52.000 It's not that you don't. 01:41:52.040 --> 01:41:55.810 It's that you have dulled that to the point where when it comes in, it's so 01:41:55.840 --> 01:42:00.440 automatic that that gets put in a box and put away that you never even experience 01:42:00.460 --> 01:42:03.050 you bypass the whole experience. 01:42:06.255 --> 01:42:09.975 So we have, we all have all these managers, right? 01:42:09.975 --> 01:42:12.295 So this is how I describe IEMT. 01:42:12.305 --> 01:42:12.775 So 01:42:14.935 --> 01:42:21.195 now when that happened, right, let's imagine that what you heard 01:42:21.195 --> 01:42:24.015 that manager is saying is that nobody wants to hear from you. 01:42:25.915 --> 01:42:29.435 That creates kind of a tuning fork within your psyche. 01:42:29.445 --> 01:42:31.165 It's like a, it's like a lens. 01:42:31.875 --> 01:42:39.245 Every situation after that point is going to be scanning for how 01:42:39.285 --> 01:42:40.465 no one wants to hear from you. 01:42:43.095 --> 01:42:46.365 If someone that, you know, just says, Hey, what's up? 01:42:46.365 --> 01:42:48.735 And like, and just walks past you and keeps going. 01:42:48.945 --> 01:42:49.965 It's not that they're busy. 01:42:49.965 --> 01:42:52.065 It's not that they're it's that they're avoiding it because 01:42:52.065 --> 01:42:52.915 nobody wants to hear from you. 01:42:55.165 --> 01:42:55.465 Right. 01:42:55.545 --> 01:42:59.065 We go into every situation with this anxiety that nobody wants to hear from me. 01:42:59.255 --> 01:43:02.915 Every situation we see goes to that lens and validates. 01:43:03.505 --> 01:43:12.225 So now this memory that created the manager, well, the mind 01:43:12.855 --> 01:43:15.975 kept that memory as being sharp. 01:43:16.445 --> 01:43:20.745 So what I mean by that is the memory lives in the hippocampus, 01:43:23.035 --> 01:43:26.655 but it has a direct link right into the amygdala, which is 01:43:27.165 --> 01:43:28.615 the nervous system, the body. 01:43:28.665 --> 01:43:31.625 So mind and body are connected in that memory. 01:43:32.055 --> 01:43:37.115 You cannot intellectualize your way out of the effects of that memory. 01:43:37.560 --> 01:43:37.780 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:43:37.780 --> 01:43:38.650 There's going to be cortisol. 01:43:39.240 --> 01:43:39.420 Yeah. 01:43:39.470 --> 01:43:39.760 Christine Dickson: Yeah. 01:43:39.810 --> 01:43:41.620 It's, it's, it's connected. 01:43:42.220 --> 01:43:42.810 So 01:43:45.490 --> 01:43:55.480 what I am T does is it's a, it's, it's simplistic in its approach. 01:43:56.190 --> 01:44:02.460 And the whole goal is to dial down or disconnect that connection between 01:44:02.480 --> 01:44:03.900 the hippocampus and the amygdala. 01:44:06.130 --> 01:44:13.030 And the beauty of this is that when you take the negative charge away 01:44:13.030 --> 01:44:20.070 from that fast memory, You get to now have perspective on the memory 01:44:20.080 --> 01:44:21.840 because you're not activated. 01:44:21.840 --> 01:44:26.890 When we're activated, our wise mind, our ability to have perspective and, 01:44:27.350 --> 01:44:32.570 and to see it from a bigger, see the bigger picture is, is almost non 01:44:32.570 --> 01:44:34.680 existent because we're activated. 01:44:35.590 --> 01:44:37.230 Take away the activation. 01:44:37.310 --> 01:44:46.570 We can use our own wisdom and our own views to put perspective on something that 01:44:47.165 --> 01:44:51.515 I don't know like it was so triggering. 01:44:52.655 --> 01:44:55.055 And now, oh, wow. 01:44:55.075 --> 01:44:55.595 Yeah. 01:44:56.715 --> 01:44:58.855 God, my mom was doing that to all of us. 01:44:59.135 --> 01:44:59.755 All the time. 01:44:59.755 --> 01:45:04.675 She was so stressed out, you know, and I know what was going on then. 01:45:04.765 --> 01:45:06.315 And, and 01:45:08.535 --> 01:45:09.885 yeah, I can see. 01:45:09.915 --> 01:45:12.615 But, you know, like you just start to see it differently. 01:45:12.645 --> 01:45:14.685 And then all of those domino effect. 01:45:14.935 --> 01:45:18.025 The domino effect of everything that you built on top of that. 01:45:18.495 --> 01:45:19.895 That all starts to fall away. 01:45:24.445 --> 01:45:24.935 And. 01:45:26.405 --> 01:45:31.485 This works amazingly because you know what the thing is, is that the whole 01:45:31.555 --> 01:45:38.175 system, this whole system was created in our evolution to help us as children 01:45:39.225 --> 01:45:44.325 when we're in an environment to survive the adaptive child needs to adapt and 01:45:44.325 --> 01:45:49.335 survive the environment, but those tools that it created do not necessarily 01:45:49.335 --> 01:45:51.725 service as adults when we have agency, 01:45:54.505 --> 01:45:58.255 you can keep the wisdom of a past experience. 01:45:58.255 --> 01:45:58.305 Transcribed 01:46:00.385 --> 01:46:02.515 without needing the charge. 01:46:04.115 --> 01:46:06.795 So let's say you like to apply this to horses. 01:46:06.805 --> 01:46:13.845 Let's say you had a accident on a horse, you know, you, you were riding your horses 01:46:13.845 --> 01:46:17.895 and then you have this terrible accident and you got really hurt or sometimes 01:46:17.895 --> 01:46:19.215 you didn't even have to get really hurt. 01:46:19.375 --> 01:46:22.385 Sometimes people have small accidents. 01:46:22.565 --> 01:46:24.295 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, they make, it doesn't care that 01:46:25.355 --> 01:46:26.515 threat is real or imagined. 01:46:26.525 --> 01:46:26.845 That's the. 01:46:27.985 --> 01:46:28.605 Getting a pretty score. 01:46:29.255 --> 01:46:29.415 Yeah. 01:46:29.485 --> 01:46:29.685 Yeah. 01:46:29.685 --> 01:46:29.875 Yeah. 01:46:30.495 --> 01:46:32.685 Christine Dickson: And then now you have anxiety about writing, 01:46:33.035 --> 01:46:36.215 but then you have anxiety about having anxiety because anxiety leads 01:46:36.215 --> 01:46:38.095 to more crashes and more issues. 01:46:38.105 --> 01:46:43.475 So, and then you're trying to force yourself to not be anxious 01:46:43.475 --> 01:46:45.295 or pretend that you're not anxious. 01:46:45.315 --> 01:46:48.285 And then you have shame around now that you feel bad about that. 01:46:48.285 --> 01:46:53.870 And, and so being able to take away the charge is just this It's an opening. 01:46:53.980 --> 01:47:00.330 It's just, it creates an opening for this, these charges to leave and the 01:47:00.330 --> 01:47:01.930 wisdom and perspective to come in. 01:47:05.620 --> 01:47:08.580 Rupert Isaacson: How do you bring that into work with horses and people? 01:47:10.470 --> 01:47:14.520 Are you doing this work with the rapid eye movement, following your finger, 01:47:14.560 --> 01:47:20.050 et cetera, while they're working with the horse or on the horse, or you're 01:47:20.050 --> 01:47:24.615 doing this away from the horse in another, context, but it's the same 01:47:24.615 --> 01:47:31.075 client and you're offering a knock on an equine thing within your practice. 01:47:32.105 --> 01:47:32.475 Christine Dickson: Yes. 01:47:32.495 --> 01:47:37.425 And, and, and, you know, I will say that the majority of my clients, we don't have 01:47:37.425 --> 01:47:39.485 the equine part because they're virtual. 01:47:39.485 --> 01:47:41.005 They live all over the place. 01:47:41.085 --> 01:47:41.405 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:47:41.705 --> 01:47:42.845 Christine Dickson: The only people 01:47:43.215 --> 01:47:44.415 Rupert Isaacson: that you can do this over zoom. 01:47:45.105 --> 01:47:46.675 Christine Dickson: Oh yeah, absolutely. 01:47:47.005 --> 01:47:47.535 Absolutely. 01:47:47.705 --> 01:47:48.555 Rupert Isaacson: Do you hear that everyone? 01:47:49.765 --> 01:47:50.075 Christine Dickson: Yeah. 01:47:50.085 --> 01:47:53.605 Most of this, most of my work is done through zoom. 01:47:53.945 --> 01:47:59.940 That's why Also that I say, like, the the equine part isn't as big of a role because 01:47:59.940 --> 01:48:07.510 it only I can only offer it to the people that are that are in my area or I also do. 01:48:07.600 --> 01:48:10.100 I do weekend intensives 1 on 1. 01:48:10.110 --> 01:48:13.330 so people will come and stay with me for a weekend. 01:48:13.820 --> 01:48:15.480 And they will work with the horses, but 01:48:17.480 --> 01:48:20.070 Rupert Isaacson: okay, I'm just thinking I can imagine doing this. 01:48:20.670 --> 01:48:21.180 on a horse. 01:48:21.180 --> 01:48:27.150 I'm just now imagining being on a horse in a nice situation with a nice 01:48:27.150 --> 01:48:31.700 horse, with a horse moving nicely underneath me, or perhaps a horse being 01:48:31.700 --> 01:48:33.550 static and peaceful underneath me. 01:48:35.080 --> 01:48:43.055 And you taking me through this rapid eye movement way to dis, dis, 01:48:45.475 --> 01:48:49.125 Remove the hippocampus amygdala connection. 01:48:51.575 --> 01:48:58.795 And if I am someone who likes that environment, horses, perhaps I'll also 01:48:58.795 --> 01:49:00.535 maybe like to do it under a tree perhaps. 01:49:00.535 --> 01:49:02.425 I'll also maybe like to do it in water, perhaps. 01:49:02.515 --> 01:49:03.865 You know, people have their different 01:49:06.145 --> 01:49:10.670 happy places, but obviously if wee horse people, that's ponies I could see. 01:49:11.485 --> 01:49:15.885 A double power because I could see, I could see a subconscious reaction 01:49:15.885 --> 01:49:22.245 going, Oh, well, I'm being listened to because I've been placed in 01:49:22.255 --> 01:49:28.255 the, even if it's by myself in the environment, that is the best for me. 01:49:28.805 --> 01:49:32.745 Sensorally, emotionally, and so on. 01:49:33.255 --> 01:49:36.695 So I could see a real power in doing this with the horse, but I could also 01:49:36.695 --> 01:49:40.015 see what's great is that you could also do this completely without because, 01:49:41.155 --> 01:49:44.635 You're not always with the horse and as you say, you can do this over distance. 01:49:44.695 --> 01:49:48.495 What, what it seems that you're describing here is a shamanic process. 01:49:49.105 --> 01:49:53.185 So when I've had the experience with. 01:49:53.785 --> 01:50:02.175 Shamans in indigenous cultures, there is a, it's, it's usually conflict 01:50:02.215 --> 01:50:07.685 resolution and that conflict is often internal, but it can be also external. 01:50:07.875 --> 01:50:11.865 So the shaman could be addressing conflict within the group, for example, 01:50:11.985 --> 01:50:15.995 or conflict between two people equally. 01:50:16.045 --> 01:50:16.785 It's conflict. 01:50:16.805 --> 01:50:18.255 You know, if there's a health issue, that's still a 01:50:18.255 --> 01:50:19.755 conflict, it's still a dilemma. 01:50:20.145 --> 01:50:22.405 And the idea is to resolve that dilemma. 01:50:22.955 --> 01:50:28.205 And I think that one of the things which is tricky for us, all of us in our 01:50:28.205 --> 01:50:34.015 culture, and by our culture I don't just mean Europe and America, I mean everything 01:50:34.015 --> 01:50:37.815 that is post agricultural in the world and is not hunter gatherer, basically. 01:50:38.095 --> 01:50:43.545 Anything that has gone through this process of kind of, Becoming 01:50:43.545 --> 01:50:44.815 processed in a funny way. 01:50:45.675 --> 01:50:49.585 Removal from nature, which is also a deep wound. 01:50:50.375 --> 01:50:57.195 Is we've, we, we, we cannot be other than mentally ill in that situation. 01:50:57.745 --> 01:51:00.885 Because, so therefore we must all be, because we're all suffering, 01:51:00.885 --> 01:51:02.085 we're all animals in a cage. 01:51:03.135 --> 01:51:06.795 And sometimes the cage is nicer than the other cages, but it's still a cage. 01:51:10.235 --> 01:51:16.195 And we lack community, and we lack the, the good shaman, but we also 01:51:16.265 --> 01:51:23.780 have gone from The predator being, or the danger being, obviously the lion, 01:51:23.780 --> 01:51:29.360 the tiger, the whatever, but also, say, the elephant or the black mamba. 01:51:30.980 --> 01:51:35.120 But not, in the hunter gatherer culture, your fellow human. 01:51:36.580 --> 01:51:40.820 And the, even though humans are as funky in hunter gatherer life as they 01:51:40.820 --> 01:51:47.845 are in non hunter gatherer life, there is a process to defunkify and, keep 01:51:47.855 --> 01:51:51.935 those conflicts cleansed so that the community doesn't fragment and people 01:51:51.935 --> 01:51:53.525 don't get eaten by hyenas basically. 01:51:54.555 --> 01:52:01.165 Now we've replaced the hyena with ourselves and this sends us mad 01:52:01.165 --> 01:52:07.195 because it's not how it's supposed to be and yet we have to navigate this. 01:52:07.745 --> 01:52:08.805 And it's almost impossible. 01:52:11.205 --> 01:52:15.775 It seems to me that what you're describing particularly with 01:52:15.775 --> 01:52:19.550 IEMT is a way to in our society 01:52:24.210 --> 01:52:29.210 have that shamanic conflict resolving cleansing reboot 01:52:31.440 --> 01:52:38.330 that allows you to navigate and that sounds incredibly useful. 01:52:38.770 --> 01:52:41.380 What I can also say is, you know, having tried it. 01:52:42.500 --> 01:52:44.930 Because remember in Birmingham, I was like, all right, then do it. 01:52:45.510 --> 01:52:48.570 And you threw it and you did take me through it and I was 01:52:48.570 --> 01:52:54.060 like, oh, that did actually take the sting out of that memory. 01:52:54.060 --> 01:52:55.470 That's cra That's amazing. 01:52:55.680 --> 01:52:56.465 And it was so And then you 01:52:56.535 --> 01:52:57.785 Christine Dickson: overslept . Yeah. 01:52:57.805 --> 01:52:58.025 It 01:52:58.025 --> 01:53:00.050 Rupert Isaacson: was so, yes, exactly. 01:53:00.050 --> 01:53:00.260 Yeah. 01:53:00.260 --> 01:53:01.305 It's like, then I, yeah, then I slept. 01:53:02.765 --> 01:53:04.875 Like I hadn't slept in, I don't know. 01:53:05.465 --> 01:53:15.865 But the, so if people are coming into equine assisted work, do you think, would 01:53:15.865 --> 01:53:20.245 you recommend, because I think this is something anyone can learn, right, IEMT, 01:53:20.445 --> 01:53:26.235 would you, would you, would you recommend that as, as a modality that those of 01:53:26.235 --> 01:53:29.345 us who are working with mental health should, you know, In whatever field 01:53:29.345 --> 01:53:31.825 should should look at do you teach it? 01:53:32.795 --> 01:53:36.925 Christine Dickson: So, Here's the funny thing about amt is that when 01:53:36.935 --> 01:53:42.595 it was first when it was first shown to me I mean I was laughing because 01:53:43.485 --> 01:53:45.695 I was like, what did you just do? 01:53:45.705 --> 01:53:47.445 Like, that's crazy. 01:53:47.985 --> 01:53:49.905 And I was like, I have to learn this. 01:53:50.925 --> 01:53:51.485 And, 01:53:53.735 --> 01:53:58.995 and so because it works so clearly for me and it works so easily for 01:53:58.995 --> 01:54:05.225 you, I had this vision of like getting trained in it as being super easy. 01:54:05.225 --> 01:54:06.285 Like that was really easy. 01:54:06.285 --> 01:54:07.705 That was really straightforward. 01:54:08.270 --> 01:54:09.210 It is not. 01:54:09.480 --> 01:54:10.310 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, I can believe it. 01:54:10.311 --> 01:54:12.585 Damn. 01:54:12.585 --> 01:54:20.000 Christine Dickson: Because, because, that's when everything goes right. 01:54:20.220 --> 01:54:23.720 But remember we all have those managers, and let me tell you something. 01:54:23.990 --> 01:54:27.100 I've been working with someone where I'm looking dead in the face of 01:54:27.100 --> 01:54:29.470 their managers and their managers are going, Oh, she thinks that 01:54:29.470 --> 01:54:31.130 we're going to let her let this go. 01:54:31.140 --> 01:54:32.630 That's hilarious. 01:54:32.910 --> 01:54:35.900 I don't know what you think you come here to do lady, but there's 01:54:35.910 --> 01:54:37.460 no way you're getting past us. 01:54:37.860 --> 01:54:45.680 Like you have to have, you have to have all of the different ways that this can 01:54:45.680 --> 01:54:53.920 go and know how to navigate through to find Ways around these things because 01:54:53.920 --> 01:54:56.720 I've had to go all different directions. 01:54:57.190 --> 01:55:01.980 So because it was easy, like for me, as, as with you and really direct, 01:55:02.030 --> 01:55:04.920 like, I thought, oh, it's just going to be learning about the questions 01:55:04.920 --> 01:55:08.590 and how the, you know, to move people's eyes and, and that'll be it. 01:55:08.640 --> 01:55:14.420 But it's not to say that if you do this work, that. 01:55:16.510 --> 01:55:21.840 As you, as you've done it, you're as a client that you can't take 01:55:22.210 --> 01:55:26.590 aspects of it and do it for yourself. 01:55:28.130 --> 01:55:31.760 And, and if you don't get the result, you know, like, you're not going to hurt 01:55:31.760 --> 01:55:33.530 yourself if you don't get the result. 01:55:34.185 --> 01:55:36.845 That you're looking for, then you would know that you maybe 01:55:36.845 --> 01:55:38.785 need some extra help on that. 01:55:39.045 --> 01:55:45.185 But yes, I think that once you experience it a few times or maybe 01:55:45.185 --> 01:55:49.525 more than a few, but like, then you can get a feel for it and use it. 01:55:51.765 --> 01:55:52.185 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:55:52.505 --> 01:55:56.125 Also, maybe you could, let's say you're an equine practitioner. 01:55:56.125 --> 01:55:56.825 You're listening to this. 01:55:56.825 --> 01:56:00.225 You're thinking, well, you know, I like the sound of this, but I haven't 01:56:00.225 --> 01:56:03.615 got the time to, you know, I've got to feed all my horses and I haven't 01:56:03.615 --> 01:56:04.665 got the time to go learn this. 01:56:05.340 --> 01:56:10.220 Modality, which Christina's just divulge is perhaps a little bit trickier to learn. 01:56:10.820 --> 01:56:14.830 We were hoping like everything, but perhaps I could team up 01:56:14.900 --> 01:56:19.210 with someone who has that, that who has learned that modality. 01:56:19.440 --> 01:56:22.640 And then perhaps we could join forces within the practice. 01:56:25.460 --> 01:56:31.590 Have that so let's say I mean obviously I'm in Germany you're in California but 01:56:31.630 --> 01:56:33.100 let's say you were down the road from me. 01:56:34.350 --> 01:56:37.810 I could see saying Okay, Christine. 01:56:37.810 --> 01:56:39.020 Could we join forces here? 01:56:39.590 --> 01:56:41.710 I'm doing this thing. 01:56:41.730 --> 01:56:42.840 This is this horse boy thing. 01:56:42.840 --> 01:56:47.380 This is this movement method things is this ticking thing Would you please can I 01:56:47.390 --> 01:56:50.190 please send clients to you or could you? 01:56:51.955 --> 01:56:55.715 Come sometimes in certain sessions with certain people and bring 01:56:55.715 --> 01:56:56.855 that resource to the table. 01:56:59.095 --> 01:57:02.755 Is this, is it easy to find people who are trained like you are in this? 01:57:03.875 --> 01:57:08.925 Christine Dickson: It started in the UK and so it is there's a 01:57:08.925 --> 01:57:11.045 lot more practitioners in the UK. 01:57:11.165 --> 01:57:18.195 It's really only recently starting to get more and more attraction in the US. 01:57:18.715 --> 01:57:26.665 I think right now I'm one of, one of two listed practitioners in Los Angeles, 01:57:26.675 --> 01:57:28.005 the other one being my daughter. 01:57:28.725 --> 01:57:28.965 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:57:29.215 --> 01:57:30.415 I thought it was more widespread. 01:57:30.505 --> 01:57:30.795 Yeah. 01:57:30.985 --> 01:57:37.285 Christine Dickson: Yeah, no, it's but it's really, as you saw, like, you know, 01:57:37.335 --> 01:57:41.475 with your own experience, it's really getting traction now and people are, 01:57:42.115 --> 01:57:45.165 are seeking it out because it works. 01:57:45.605 --> 01:57:47.795 Rupert Isaacson: So someone could say, you know, IEMT 01:57:48.285 --> 01:57:50.965 practitioners or therapists near me. 01:57:51.825 --> 01:57:52.155 Yeah, there's 01:57:52.435 --> 01:57:54.635 Christine Dickson: a, because once you get your certification, 01:57:54.635 --> 01:57:56.635 you're listed on the website. 01:57:56.715 --> 01:58:00.675 And so you, you can put, yes. 01:58:00.725 --> 01:58:05.745 Like I actually had a client on Saturday who found me through 01:58:05.755 --> 01:58:07.655 reading about IEMT on Reddit. 01:58:08.245 --> 01:58:15.305 And then Googled IAMT practitioners in Los Angeles, and I came up 01:58:16.025 --> 01:58:18.365 and that's how she found me. 01:58:18.375 --> 01:58:25.655 So, yes, and, and, you know, you have a lot of really good questions about 01:58:25.905 --> 01:58:28.295 doing stuff more with the horses, right? 01:58:28.425 --> 01:58:31.415 You know, these are all ways that, you know, who knows if that, you know, it 01:58:31.415 --> 01:58:34.445 doesn't, you don't have to have the horses because this is an inside job. 01:58:34.465 --> 01:58:37.850 You know, this is all about how you're, you know, Your mind and body are 01:58:37.850 --> 01:58:45.270 connected, but who knows ways that it could be expanded through actually being 01:58:45.270 --> 01:58:51.240 in the field with the horses or being there's so many, so many different things 01:58:51.250 --> 01:58:57.250 that you could try, you know, and I we are planning we have been planning. 01:58:57.270 --> 01:58:59.610 We're going to do it this year, but now we're doing it next year. 01:58:59.960 --> 01:59:06.760 Is a retreat where I'm kind of the on the human realm and she's working on the horse 01:59:06.760 --> 01:59:13.750 realm and by pairing up we get to support people in the work that they're doing. 01:59:13.750 --> 01:59:17.100 They want to do the work with the horses, but we all know our own personal work 01:59:17.100 --> 01:59:22.735 is just a Completely interwoven with that so not only the mentoring stuff 01:59:22.735 --> 01:59:27.725 and the other stuff, but if we come up against something that is rooted in 01:59:27.725 --> 01:59:33.145 that nervous system from a past memory, we could clear it out in real time and 01:59:33.145 --> 01:59:37.445 then what you're what what the people are there to learn about the horses. 01:59:37.825 --> 01:59:43.155 Doesn't have the roadblocks from the internal barriers anymore. 01:59:43.165 --> 01:59:49.735 Like everything can, can actually sink in and be more accessible. 01:59:49.995 --> 01:59:51.055 Rupert Isaacson: I think we need to try this. 01:59:51.145 --> 01:59:51.585 Okay. 01:59:51.585 --> 01:59:56.085 So listeners with your permission, Christine, should we decide to do 01:59:56.085 --> 01:59:58.765 this and invite people to come on a. 01:59:58.925 --> 02:00:00.405 Retreat like this in a workshop. 02:00:01.105 --> 02:00:02.565 Let's do the horse side. 02:00:02.605 --> 02:00:04.355 Let's do this side. 02:00:04.395 --> 02:00:09.715 Oh, I can't do this side, but you can do this side and let's see what happens. 02:00:10.065 --> 02:00:13.531 Why don't we do one steak side and one I'd be intrigued to 02:00:14.731 --> 02:00:16.011 see what people come away with. 02:00:16.031 --> 02:00:18.641 Maybe this would be something for professionals, you know, that coming 02:00:18.641 --> 02:00:23.591 from whatever side of the equine assisted field to be exposed to this. 02:00:24.271 --> 02:00:26.901 Something which we didn't get into, and we haven't got time to get into it now, 02:00:26.901 --> 02:00:31.161 because I think maybe we need to have you on again is I know that you've done 02:00:31.511 --> 02:00:36.511 a lot of work with addiction, people with addiction, celebrities with addiction. 02:00:36.951 --> 02:00:42.481 I know that you ended up building a large practice. 02:00:43.081 --> 02:00:47.541 That's had to, you know, you've had to protect people's anonymities. 02:00:48.181 --> 02:00:54.251 You've worked sort of at that level a bit in Hollywood, and that's given you 02:00:54.311 --> 02:00:59.951 a, an insight into How tricky it can be. 02:01:00.061 --> 02:01:06.761 This word navigation comes up again to help people who are in the public sphere 02:01:06.881 --> 02:01:12.951 and therefore can't, you know, go out there and be frank about what they're 02:01:12.951 --> 02:01:14.661 facing and what they're dealing with. 02:01:15.321 --> 02:01:20.061 Just because we're heading into towards towards the sort of natural 02:01:20.631 --> 02:01:25.151 end of this particular iteration, but I think we had to bring you back on. 02:01:25.341 --> 02:01:26.741 Can you just talk to us a little bit about. 02:01:28.146 --> 02:01:33.396 What that, how that has helped you, where you have to sort of, in your 02:01:33.396 --> 02:01:37.686 practice, where you have to help someone, but you also have to kind of keep it 02:01:37.696 --> 02:01:41.186 secret that you're helping them, that you have to, you have to dance around. 02:01:41.186 --> 02:01:44.696 You're talking about eggshells, you know, that these are very real ones 02:01:44.706 --> 02:01:46.936 suddenly, where you actually have to protect the people that you're working 02:01:47.026 --> 02:01:50.606 with, and at the same time, you know, get them through what they're doing. 02:01:50.606 --> 02:01:55.216 How has that particular, those years of doing that, helped 02:01:55.226 --> 02:01:57.946 you to help ordinary people? 02:01:59.726 --> 02:02:03.496 More deeply because it just adds a layer of complexity. 02:02:06.366 --> 02:02:06.916 Christine Dickson: It does. 02:02:06.966 --> 02:02:16.066 It does because, you know, a lot of people who are artists in 02:02:16.066 --> 02:02:18.786 entertainment are sensitive people. 02:02:19.676 --> 02:02:26.606 And one of the things that I think that we've seen really explode 02:02:27.366 --> 02:02:29.666 around social media is that. 02:02:31.136 --> 02:02:40.276 The dehumanizing of others and the fact that celebrities, we would talk about and 02:02:40.276 --> 02:02:47.806 weigh in on a celebrity's life in ways that we would never do to someone that 02:02:47.806 --> 02:02:50.096 we knew or someone's face, like it there. 02:02:50.176 --> 02:02:51.056 It's just like 02:02:51.236 --> 02:02:52.196 Rupert Isaacson: that's projection again. 02:02:52.636 --> 02:02:52.756 Yeah. 02:02:52.966 --> 02:02:53.306 Christine Dickson: Yeah. 02:02:53.346 --> 02:02:54.986 It's very bizarre. 02:02:55.486 --> 02:03:01.826 Social experiment that's, that's really has, but it has real life 02:03:02.346 --> 02:03:08.186 consequences depression, suicide and addiction being some of the ways that 02:03:08.356 --> 02:03:14.016 people end up succumbing to this mass. 02:03:14.646 --> 02:03:22.686 Feeling energetically that you are despised or ridiculous or shameful 02:03:23.066 --> 02:03:24.896 on talented, whatever it is. 02:03:24.956 --> 02:03:30.666 And, you know, I don't even pretend that I know what that's like, but I can 02:03:30.676 --> 02:03:35.336 say that when I did go through the rest and was on the news and all of that 02:03:35.336 --> 02:03:39.956 stuff and sitting in the courtroom and in an unveil hearing the prosecutions 02:03:39.966 --> 02:03:41.726 can say anything about you without. 02:03:41.781 --> 02:03:50.571 And so the things that they said were horrifying to me. 02:03:50.611 --> 02:03:51.701 I wasn't prepared. 02:03:51.701 --> 02:03:52.791 I didn't know any of that. 02:03:53.231 --> 02:03:58.891 And it felt like, and this was in the news, and I mean, it felt like you were 02:03:59.341 --> 02:04:05.081 hated by the world and you were being seen in a way that was not even true. 02:04:07.051 --> 02:04:13.241 And it's a very trippy feeling to have this like unknown, like faceless, you 02:04:13.241 --> 02:04:22.711 know, Enormity that now suddenly sees you has honed in on you and is projecting 02:04:23.451 --> 02:04:26.711 this negative energy towards you. 02:04:28.151 --> 02:04:28.811 So, 02:04:30.921 --> 02:04:34.631 you know, there's a difference when you're dealing with someone who is 02:04:34.671 --> 02:04:40.711 a public figure in any way, because in addiction, you talk about, you 02:04:40.711 --> 02:04:43.671 know, there's a saying that says you're only as sick as your secrets. 02:04:45.736 --> 02:04:53.476 So there's an aspect of ownership of being true that goes with healing, but 02:04:55.086 --> 02:04:59.636 I can't tell someone else whether that's what their experience is going to be 02:04:59.636 --> 02:05:04.556 if they come out to the world and share this aspect with them because it doesn't 02:05:04.566 --> 02:05:07.966 look like a lot of that is always true. 02:05:07.966 --> 02:05:11.006 Now, a lot of people who have done this have found that the amount of support 02:05:11.006 --> 02:05:18.556 they got way outweighed the negative comments, but this is more about. 02:05:20.726 --> 02:05:28.516 Navigating this internally and finding the forgiveness and finding the freedom 02:05:30.636 --> 02:05:33.056 and Knowing that that is your decision. 02:05:33.066 --> 02:05:33.086 I'm 02:05:37.746 --> 02:05:41.746 not sure if I answered that fully because I kind of just lost my train of thought 02:05:44.236 --> 02:05:47.176 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it sounds like what it gives you is compassion and perspective 02:05:49.556 --> 02:05:51.256 Christine Dickson: Yeah for sure for sure 02:05:53.366 --> 02:05:54.566 Rupert Isaacson: and perhaps a 02:06:00.186 --> 02:06:04.266 a greater level of it because you went through it personally and then you 02:06:07.271 --> 02:06:11.081 ended up having to help people who were either also going through it personally or 02:06:11.081 --> 02:06:12.771 in danger of going through it personally. 02:06:14.631 --> 02:06:17.431 I think what you're talking about here is kindness. 02:06:18.751 --> 02:06:19.551 Christine Dickson: Empathy. 02:06:19.671 --> 02:06:20.141 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:06:20.611 --> 02:06:21.061 Yeah. 02:06:22.581 --> 02:06:29.881 It's easy to forget that section, even in this line of work. 02:06:29.961 --> 02:06:38.176 And God knows, you know, we horsey people can be A bossy judgmental lot and 02:06:38.176 --> 02:06:41.706 it can creep up without even noticing. 02:06:42.906 --> 02:06:44.166 Christine Dickson: I have a theory about that. 02:06:44.376 --> 02:06:44.726 Rupert Isaacson: Go on. 02:06:46.346 --> 02:06:49.666 Christine Dickson: And my theory is, is that a lot of children 02:06:49.666 --> 02:06:55.516 who grew up in dysfunctional homes found solace in animals. 02:06:55.756 --> 02:06:56.246 Rupert Isaacson: Ah. 02:06:58.016 --> 02:06:58.326 Christine Dickson: But. 02:06:58.771 --> 02:07:06.851 Did not learn nervous system regulation healthy communication, which people 02:07:06.851 --> 02:07:09.101 never think about learning communication. 02:07:09.101 --> 02:07:16.611 We just think it's just downloaded to us, but there's actually tools that you could 02:07:16.611 --> 02:07:20.821 learn to really help your relationships around healthy communication. 02:07:21.301 --> 02:07:23.091 We didn't learn that. 02:07:23.916 --> 02:07:27.516 We never felt what it was like to have power agency. 02:07:27.516 --> 02:07:33.566 So we, that feeling of being susceptible to everyone else and everyone else's 02:07:33.566 --> 02:07:38.416 thoughts comes with us into adulthood, no matter how powerful we actually are. 02:07:39.096 --> 02:07:46.766 So then our reactions to people are oftentimes overblown. 02:07:48.426 --> 02:07:52.656 We feel attacked by different opinions. 02:07:53.316 --> 02:07:58.576 Questioning can feel threatened by someone doing things differently or 02:07:58.576 --> 02:08:04.536 seeing things differently judged you know, it's that thing where we, we are, 02:08:04.646 --> 02:08:09.276 we can become very in tune with our own feelings or the feelings that we feel 02:08:09.276 --> 02:08:17.786 the animal is having and have a lot less compassion for the other person. 02:08:18.336 --> 02:08:20.246 How many times you hear people say, I. 02:08:21.181 --> 02:08:22.871 I love animals and I hate people. 02:08:23.981 --> 02:08:25.041 Yet we're people. 02:08:25.291 --> 02:08:26.081 You're a people. 02:08:26.321 --> 02:08:27.211 We're all a people. 02:08:30.111 --> 02:08:34.731 And so either you have a grandiose version, view of yourself that feels 02:08:34.731 --> 02:08:38.781 like you're the only good person in the world and everyone else is terrible. 02:08:41.211 --> 02:08:48.891 Or you have internalized a real negative and unhealthy view of yourself as human. 02:08:48.891 --> 02:08:53.931 And either way, it's, it's, you know, you don't have community. 02:08:54.331 --> 02:08:55.621 You don't have. 02:08:55.946 --> 02:09:02.566 The beautiful aspects that you can only get from having a relationship 02:09:02.566 --> 02:09:03.636 with another human being. 02:09:09.991 --> 02:09:10.871 Rupert Isaacson: Wise words. 02:09:12.161 --> 02:09:18.141 And yeah, that is a statement you hear so often and often from people who are 02:09:20.431 --> 02:09:24.171 supposedly in the equine assisted field. 02:09:24.411 --> 02:09:27.671 Or canine too, you hear that with dog people too and so on. 02:09:28.301 --> 02:09:30.681 And yeah, it does, that one always gives me pause. 02:09:30.681 --> 02:09:32.861 It's like, well then why are you, why are you doing it? 02:09:32.861 --> 02:09:34.071 Why are you working with people then? 02:09:34.391 --> 02:09:36.591 You know, yeah, deep down we're all 02:09:39.471 --> 02:09:41.441 searching for, crying for that connection. 02:09:42.011 --> 02:09:43.801 And we know it's there, we know it's possible. 02:09:44.321 --> 02:09:48.651 And I wonder if that statement that gets made is a way of, is actually an 02:09:48.651 --> 02:09:54.761 unconscious statement of grief, when saying, you know, I love animals but I 02:09:54.761 --> 02:10:00.111 hate people, meaning, I seem to find with animals what I can't find with people, 02:10:00.461 --> 02:10:04.501 but what I know I ought to be able to find with people, because they are my species. 02:10:05.181 --> 02:10:09.161 And I feel this grief of being unable to connect with people. 02:10:09.541 --> 02:10:14.061 With my species and this is a soul wound and I'm expressing 02:10:14.061 --> 02:10:16.781 it with these words Even though it's coming out in a weird way. 02:10:16.811 --> 02:10:17.761 Does that make sense? 02:10:18.551 --> 02:10:23.611 Christine Dickson: It's my it's my sword and shield, you know I say 02:10:23.611 --> 02:10:32.251 that Those walls that you built to protect yourself Also keep you on 02:10:32.251 --> 02:10:34.771 the other side of everything Yeah. 02:10:34.851 --> 02:10:35.391 That you want. 02:10:35.861 --> 02:10:36.261 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:10:36.261 --> 02:10:36.591 Oi, 02:10:39.571 --> 02:10:40.281 oi, oi. 02:10:42.211 --> 02:10:44.911 Better saddle up and go for a contemplative ride in the forest. 02:10:49.521 --> 02:10:50.501 On my list for tomorrow. 02:10:51.781 --> 02:10:53.531 Listen, Christine, it's been amazing. 02:10:53.581 --> 02:10:56.381 I think there's more questions have come up in my mind. 02:10:56.451 --> 02:11:00.491 And I think, you know, as you know, and some of our listeners know that we 02:11:00.491 --> 02:11:03.161 have another podcast called Live Free, Ride Free, and I think I'd like you 02:11:03.161 --> 02:11:08.691 to please come on that and talk in a more biographical way about how you've 02:11:08.691 --> 02:11:10.341 managed to kind of self actualize. 02:11:11.091 --> 02:11:12.691 From the equine side, I think. 02:11:13.381 --> 02:11:18.911 Those of us listening definitely are all very curious about the IEMT. 02:11:18.941 --> 02:11:23.001 We're very curious about how you bring what you've learned about 02:11:23.001 --> 02:11:29.321 addiction and also hypnosis and so into perhaps ways we can inform our own 02:11:29.321 --> 02:11:31.861 practices and to do what we do better. 02:11:32.551 --> 02:11:34.121 I certainly am always looking for mentorship. 02:11:34.461 --> 02:11:35.321 How do we find you? 02:11:35.531 --> 02:11:36.671 How do we reach out to you? 02:11:37.161 --> 02:11:40.011 How do we engage you to help us learn this stuff? 02:11:42.131 --> 02:11:42.971 Christine Dickson: Yeah, sure. 02:11:43.011 --> 02:11:48.536 Well, my email address is On the path, C as in cat, H as in 02:11:48.556 --> 02:11:52.156 horse, T as in Tom, CHT at gmail. 02:11:52.156 --> 02:11:52.526 com. 02:11:52.526 --> 02:11:55.046 So it's on the path, CHT at gmail. 02:11:55.076 --> 02:11:55.536 com. 02:11:56.316 --> 02:11:59.366 My website is on the path coaching. 02:11:59.616 --> 02:12:04.786 net and you can find me on social media. 02:12:05.066 --> 02:12:08.316 Christine Dixon on Facebook. 02:12:09.056 --> 02:12:12.626 I have an on the path on Facebook business page. 02:12:12.656 --> 02:12:13.316 I have. 02:12:14.196 --> 02:12:16.656 Rupert Isaacson: People can reach out to you for mentorship people. 02:12:16.656 --> 02:12:17.756 People can. 02:12:17.756 --> 02:12:18.036 Yeah. 02:12:18.996 --> 02:12:19.376 Christine Dickson: Yeah. 02:12:19.396 --> 02:12:24.736 And on Instagram, it's a it's on the path underscore mentor. 02:12:24.766 --> 02:12:29.466 And then I have a my personal is Christine Dixon underscore on the path. 02:12:31.446 --> 02:12:34.086 But yeah, you can find me can mention me any way. 02:12:34.086 --> 02:12:35.066 I mean, and we're 02:12:35.066 --> 02:12:37.826 Rupert Isaacson: going to put these links in, you know, on the written 02:12:37.896 --> 02:12:39.156 thing at the end of this too. 02:12:39.546 --> 02:12:39.826 Christine Dickson: Yeah, 02:12:40.796 --> 02:12:41.136 Rupert Isaacson: but 02:12:43.506 --> 02:12:45.976 yeah I'm certainly going to be signing up for some mentorship. 02:12:46.326 --> 02:12:46.896 I could use it. 02:12:47.576 --> 02:12:49.746 Christine Dickson: I've had the idea and maybe it's something that we can 02:12:49.746 --> 02:12:53.806 talk about too, is the idea of like putting something together for trainers, 02:12:53.816 --> 02:12:57.586 for people who are working in this. 02:12:57.826 --> 02:13:02.806 Because look, I'm not saying that people can't be grind, you know, it, 02:13:02.806 --> 02:13:06.536 you know, when you see, especially if you identify with the horse's pain and 02:13:06.536 --> 02:13:10.086 suffering, and then you see people show up with the same ignorance, the same 02:13:10.086 --> 02:13:14.626 ignorance, the same ignorance, it's easy to lose your compassion for the 02:13:14.636 --> 02:13:19.886 person and connect with the feeling of that building on itself, instead of. 02:13:20.176 --> 02:13:25.956 Connecting with the idea that how great more and more people who believed this way 02:13:26.136 --> 02:13:28.846 are coming to learn things differently. 02:13:29.006 --> 02:13:30.216 How great is that? 02:13:31.306 --> 02:13:33.446 As opposed to I can't believe another, you know, like there's 02:13:33.496 --> 02:13:34.736 and that's just one example. 02:13:34.736 --> 02:13:38.546 Like, it really it's a lot of the way we're viewing things 02:13:38.726 --> 02:13:40.326 that creates our own suffering. 02:13:40.366 --> 02:13:41.706 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's a reframing that we have to 02:13:41.706 --> 02:13:42.916 go through, but you know, it. 02:13:44.706 --> 02:13:45.696 One can't do that alone. 02:13:45.796 --> 02:13:50.466 And one needs, you know, one would have had the shaman, one would have had 02:13:50.616 --> 02:13:54.136 vision quest, one would have had, you know, those night, those vigils alone 02:13:54.136 --> 02:13:55.776 on the mountain, that sort of thing. 02:13:58.196 --> 02:14:01.186 But we don't anymore. 02:14:01.356 --> 02:14:05.826 So unless we, unless we deliberately stick that in some way and create it. 02:14:05.826 --> 02:14:06.086 Yeah. 02:14:06.506 --> 02:14:07.546 So absolutely. 02:14:07.546 --> 02:14:10.586 Well, I think we should put something together for. 02:14:12.251 --> 02:14:17.171 our fellow professionals in the field in a sort of a not we're here to teach 02:14:17.241 --> 02:14:19.531 you stuff more like a let's explore. 02:14:19.571 --> 02:14:23.341 How we might want to deepen our practices 02:14:25.581 --> 02:14:26.681 Okay, brilliant. 02:14:26.701 --> 02:14:26.821 I 02:14:26.951 --> 02:14:27.211 Christine Dickson: love that. 02:14:27.311 --> 02:14:27.481 Yeah 02:14:27.841 --> 02:14:28.891 Rupert Isaacson: to be continued then 02:14:29.621 --> 02:14:30.431 Christine Dickson: to be continued. 02:14:31.111 --> 02:14:32.021 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you christine 02:14:34.011 --> 02:14:36.511 Christine Dickson: Thank you so much for inviting me on here. 02:14:36.561 --> 02:14:40.721 I could talk to you for 10 hours and maybe take a nap and 02:14:41.121 --> 02:14:45.141 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I think, I think, I'm sure, I'm sure, you know, 02:14:45.301 --> 02:14:49.041 I think most of the listeners would love to hear more from you too. 02:14:49.041 --> 02:14:52.111 There's, there's a lot more here to explore and unpack. 02:14:52.111 --> 02:14:54.981 So, let's maybe think about a round two. 02:14:55.211 --> 02:14:57.711 Until then, I'm grateful. 02:14:58.221 --> 02:15:00.091 And we see you next time. 02:15:00.411 --> 02:15:01.671 Christine Dickson: Thank you so much. 02:15:01.721 --> 02:15:02.231 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you. 02:15:02.541 --> 02:15:03.151 Christine Dickson: Thanks everybody. 02:15:03.239 --> 02:15:04.349 Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us. 02:15:04.379 --> 02:15:06.209 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 02:15:06.447 --> 02:15:11.487 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 02:15:11.487 --> 02:15:16.677 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 02:15:17.385 --> 02:15:22.033 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 02:15:22.033 --> 02:15:24.043 dealing with trauma around the world. 02:15:24.370 --> 02:15:28.120 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 02:15:28.120 --> 02:15:31.360 for riders on long ride home.com. 02:15:31.659 --> 02:15:35.709 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 02:15:35.709 --> 02:15:37.629 bring you and your horse joy. 02:15:38.165 --> 02:15:42.725 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 02:15:43.055 --> 02:15:43.985 See you on the next show. 02:15:44.398 --> 02:15:47.088 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.