Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Mank is over.
Don't worry, folks. The white wine came up with the fish.
Trailer: Mank, it's awesome wells. Of course, it is.
I think it's time we talk.
What is it the writer says? Tell the story you know. Hello, everyone.
Trailer: Make yourself to home, mister Mankowitz, or shall I call
Trailer: you Herman? Please. Call me Mank. Mank. Mank.
Mank. Mank. Mank.
Trailer: This is Herman Mankowitz, but we have to call him Mank.
Trailer: Mankowitz. Herman Mankowitz, New York playwright and drama critic. Turned humble screenwriter, mister Hearst. This a business where the buyer gets nothing for his money but a memory. What he bought still belongs to the man who sold it.
That's the real magic of the movies. Nothing like blood, fire, religion. Help. Someone save me.
All in one film.
That's director proof. That's why I always want man corral.
Trailer: I hear you're hunting dangerous game.
Trailer: God bless William Randolph Hearst.
Ready and willing to hunt the great white whale?
Just call me Ahab. Do come in. At this rate, you will never finish. You said ninety days. Well said sixty.
I'm doing the best I can.
Trailer: I've put up with your suicidal drinking, your compulsive gambling, your silly platonic affairs. You owe me, Herman. Who do you think you are?
Trailer: You're nothing but a court jester. What I wanna know is what you think of it. It's a bit of a jumble. The collection of fragments that peep around in time like Mexican jumping beams. Welcome to my mind, old sock.
Him, I get. But what did Marion ever do to deserve this? It's not her. Not all characters are headliners. Some are secondary.
You pick a fight with Willie. You are finished. Mayor can't save you.
Trailer: Nobody can. Especially the boy genius from New York.
Trailer: I removed any distraction, eliminated every excuse. Your family, your cronies, liquor. I gave you a second chance.
You cannot capture a man's entire life in two hours. All you can hope is to leave the impression of what? Why Hurst? Outside his own blonde Betty Boop, you're always his favorite dinner partner. Are you familiar with the parable of the organ grinder's monkey?
Pete Wright: So, Mank, Andy, you and I have never talked about Mank. No. No. We didn't. Mank was done on the film board in 2020.
When it came out, JJ hosted a conversation with Steve and Tommy. They talked to Mank. That's the only time that we've done that we've had Mank so far. And you and I did the David Fincher series eight decades ago. Oof.
And so it's time to plug this hole. We are little Dutch boying our old series by jamming this movie into that leak.
Andy Nelson: Yes. We've got one more. So I've got my finger or you've got your finger in this one. So Yeah. I'm gonna have to, you know, use my finger.
We got one more to do.
Pete Wright: And hope he just stops making movies.
Andy Nelson: Oh, come on. Let's never hope that upon
Pete Wright: No. David Fincher. Not David Fincher, for sure.
Andy Nelson: Not David Fincher. No.
Pete Wright: Alright. So where where do you wanna start with Mank? I don't actually know what you think about this movie.
Andy Nelson: I do enjoy this film. It's not necessarily a favorite of mine of what Fincher has done. This is an interesting glimpse into this period of old Hollywood in the thirties and forties, the politics of the time, both in government and in the film industry in Hollywood. It's also a fascinating glimpse into the writing of Citizen Kane. Largely, a I mean, I I think a lot of people still feel it came across as a skewed version of the story, largely kind of, leaning on Pauline Kael's approach that she she kind of wrote an article about, the making of not an article, but a very long essay in 1971 about the making of Citizen Kane called Raising Kane that said Orson Welles does not deserve screen credit.
That's basically what her, her claim was. And I think that the Finchers largely latched onto that aspect of the story for or I should say Jack Fincher largely latched on to that for crafting of the script. Disregarding the fact that Pauline Kael's article was debunked by many people, including Peter Bogdanovich, who we just talked about, with one of his, period films in our preshow chat. We're talking about some early some old Hollywood stories. Peter Bogdanovich wrote a rebuttal to it.
Many other people have debunked this whole idea that it was Manks script alone. And, you know, it's it's one of these things that I think perpetually will be argued about. Although a lot of people do say, I think somebody did an analysis. I think all the scripts are still available that RKO had, and somebody had kind of broken down all of the scripts and said, they both deserve screen credit, and there's a large part of what both of them did that's in the script. And, you know, we should say despite the fact that there was an argument between the fact that Mankowitz said when he signed his contract that he was coming in as a script doctor, and he wasn't gonna get screen credit.
He ended up writing so much of it that even though there was a you know, he wanted screen credit and there was a fight about it, It was apparently Orson Welles when, one of the editors said that Orson Welles is the one who actually said to put Mankowitz above his name in the credits. And so I think as as as much, of an antagonistic relationship as Mank had with Wells, especially after this film throughout the rest of his life, he kind of seemed to grow in his antagonism for Wells. It's definitely something that seemed to perhaps be more in his mind. I don't know. But it's interesting because I think Fincher said he didn't wanna make a movie that was basically, decades old arbitration as to who deserves screen credit, but more a story about a writer who wrote signed a contract to not take credit and then asked for credit.
And that's what he was interested in. And I think that is actually an interesting aspect of the story to see how it plays out, and I I enjoy it. I enjoy what he did here. I think it's an interesting glimpse into especially at this early stage when the Writers Guild really wasn't there yet and and to see how this process was done. So I I do enjoy the film.
Pete Wright: Yeah. I I think you're right. And I think I appreciate the effort not to relitigate that emotion. And in fact, the actual sort of explosive scene where he comes to Wells and says, I want credit, is a very short scene. Right?
Like, it's it's not a major part of the the movie, their their fight. Right? I I think this is this movie is so much more about building up tour of friendship toward betrayal, of media manipulation, of, you know, the creative process, what it looks like for Mank in in writing the script, in working with the people who helped him get the script on page, of just Hollywood politics and Hollywood corruption, and finally of alcoholism and self destruction. Like, this is a movie about a guy who implodes and what that does. Like, what does that do to his you know, the perception of him in Hollywood?
I think that's really interesting stuff. Not, you know, and I I should mention, we we have sort of talked adjacently about Mank, and we should put the link in the show notes to our conversation with Eric Messerschmidt, cinematographer, because the the look of this thing is great. And he talks a little bit in our conversation with him on movies we like about working with Fincher to make this movie. I just before I forget that, that that was not why he was there. We were talking about the killer, but it was, it was an interesting conversation anyway.
So I think the movie has a lot going for it that is beyond the the history of their feud, and I appreciate it for that. I I also appreciate the technical efforts to make the movie look the way it does because it it feels more of a period than just another black and white movie. And I think a lot of that goes to the technical prowess of the team.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. No. They did a great job of and decisions per Fincher. Right? To say, like, for, the composers, Reznor and Ross, let's just use period specific instrumentation for just like, we're gonna shoot this on black and white.
We are not going to shoot it in color and then and then drop the color out afterward. Like, specifically said, we're shooting it on black and white. So all the different teams had to figure out, okay, like the costume department had to figure out what colors are gonna work best when it suddenly is seen through a monochrome lens. And I think that's what I find so fascinating about the these decisions that they had in putting together. And and even just the way they did process shots in the film and so many different old Hollywood style of production tools that they were playing with.
Pete Wright: Smart. At the time, I can't remember if you did if you went to this virtual session with me, but at the time, right after, the the thing was all Adobe pipeline. And they they shot the film on these on red cameras with a custom the custom monochrome sensor, which is super counterintuitive. Right? I mean, to your point, like, why not just capture all the data you can and desaturate it?
Well, this is the, you know, art in the service technology in the service of the art. And and so they they wanted to hit this period. Look. And so I went to this virtual it was a cinematographers working group meetup with the team at Adobe that developed the custom pipeline to be able to do to do the edit and, After Effects work to make the movie look the way it does. And it's just fascinating.
I want I wonder if that's still if it's been saved online all these years later because it was it was really an incredible lift to be able to shoot a like, think just make a movie in black and white. They had to do an awful lot of work to make a movie in black and white like this. Deceiving deceiving amount of work.
Andy Nelson: Well, and that's interesting because when Fincher initially wanted to film this, it was right after Panic Room. And he you know, they they already had Kevin Spacey on board as Mank and Jodie Foster on board as, I guess, Marion Davies. No. Sorry. Not after Panacroam.
It was after the game. So this was in the nineties that he wanted to do this. And this was before all of the digital camera technology had really come to pass. And the reason the project didn't happen is because he wanted to shoot it in black and white, and they said no. That would have been the era where they were shooting with film.
And so you can imagine I I mean, even at the time, obviously, they'd still have to figure out, okay, how how what colors work best in black or white. Like, there still is gonna be all the same conversations. But the technology, it's like, there's a difference with the film technology as far as, like, what people already knew. They'd already had plenty of experience with the film, side of things. And so it's kind of a different technology that they ended up having to really think about.
So it did require a lot of thinking when it came to shooting it in digital black and white.
Pete Wright: Apparently, Old man wanted to wear prosthetics to make himself look like Mank. And it was Fincher who talked him out of it. I think that's interesting. I at no point did I ever question this perspective, like, Gary Old man's role as Menck. I never I was never brought out of the film, with him, you know, because I think I I don't have in my head what Mank looks like.
Right? He's not one of those figures. I felt like Old man portrayed this guy as authentically as anybody I can imagine. How what did
Andy Nelson: you think of of his performance? That's interesting. I agree. Because Mankowitz isn't somebody that we're regularly, like, able to picture in our heads, I don't know if it I mean, sure. It might have helped Old man kind of get into the headspace of playing this character, but I didn't feel, I lost anything by him not having a particular look that that screamed, oh, Herman Mankiewicz in nineteen thirties and forties.
It's one of those decisions that probably certainly made it easier for the production not having to apply prosthetics every single time because, I mean, he's in every scene of the film. He's just a a constant presence, and that would have been a lot of extra work for the production to to have him in the seat. It's different for Wells who it's it's funny because Orson Wells notoriously always was wearing, like, a fake nose in, like, every production he did. Like, he always wanted something, right, to kind of enhance his performance. And I'm not sure if Tom Burke, who played him I know when we first meet him, he has, like, a Band Aid or something on his nose, and he certainly is wearing beards and stuff as he's doing his his work on, hearts of darkness.
But I don't think he ended up actually wearing any prosthetics to play, to play Wells. I could be wrong, but I think that it was just his natural face. And so I thought that was if there was an opportunity to put someone in prosthetics, I I thought Orson Wells would have been the one just because he wore prosthetics so often in his in his, films.
Pete Wright: It's funny. Speaking of Old man, like, he had come off of he'd done a number of movies that were released between Manque and Darkest Hour, which came out in 02/2017. But I can kind of feel like going into production on Mank after darkest hour. He played Winston Churchill in heavy prosthetics that he just became kind of a slut for prosthetics. Like, just glue me up, coach.
Just glue me up. I want to just make me look any way you want. Yeah. That's that's that's kind of what's in my in my head for Old man. I think that's funny.
I don't I haven't seen the movies that are in between his these two. Like, he did a bunch. I some of them for the paycheck quite clearly. Yeah. All of them for the paycheck.
Who knows?
Andy Nelson: Well, I I think that it's one of those things where, again, you're playing a real person, and sometimes it could be something like that that helps you get into a role. So who knows? But I thought he was fine, without it. I thought he was delivered a great performance. He feels of the era.
He feels like an alcoholic, and he feels like a sharp writer who's always got something clever to say and ready to kind of spew it out. Like, I just I bought all of that with Old man's performance.
Pete Wright: I think this movie really celebrates that thing about movies of this era where everyone is witty. Right? Everyone has something that they can say. Everybody has a comeback. And the standouts are those who don't have a comeback.
Right? They're those are the doofuses. Those are the the the dunces who who can't keep up with society. Mank is a prime among peers for sure, but, you know, his dinner sequence, his dinner monologue is is epic. But he's constantly going, you know, tete a tete with other with other people in a in a sort of dance of words, and I think this movie really celebrates that.
I think it does it very, very well. I think that's one of the bits of cultural fabric that make this movie feel like it was made to me of the era.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I think so. And I I think that's, you know, especially having come off talking about screwball comedy for several episodes over on CinemaScope, that podcast that I do, it really feels like, when Fincher and, I mean, who knows? I I'm assuming it was largely him. I know Eric Roth came in to do some some script cleanups and stuff, so Roth could have thrown some stuff in there too, but it definitely has a sense of kind of that zippiness.
Like, this film really moves fast. Like, there is constant conversation happening back and forth about so many different things, whether it's the process of Hollywood and pitching scripts and and everything or the politics and, you know, all of our flashbacks in the in the in the early thirties in kind of the the period when people are still kind of working through the the dregs of the Great Depression, and you've got the politics happening with the various Republicans pushing. I can't remember the guy who they're pushing. You know, the then, of course, you have Upton Sinclair running opposite him, and you've got those two sides. Frank Miriam is the one who who the Republicans are pushing.
And so we're getting that whole side of the story and how Hollywood is pushing to get these stories like, Louis v Mayer, very much so pushing to, like, craft fake news reels. And it just it felt like they knew they were writing a story about Mankowitz, and so they wanted the dialogue to always feel like sharp thirties and forties Hollywood dialogue. And it just I mean, it really crackles and zips, and it's just a lot of fun too to see how it, how it comes together.
Pete Wright: You bring up some important points, right, that the the movie if there's a thing that troubles me about the movie, it's the same thing that troubles me about the Steve Jobs film, right, which was based on the book Steve Jobs. As someone who knows, I would say, maybe more than the average person about Steve Jobs in his life, I was very troubled by that film. I was troubled in the same way by the Mark Zuckerberg film by the Social Network because these movies play fast and loose with some things that we know were not true about the source's life. We know they did not do certain things. We don't know so much about how Manx politics in this era influenced events, and yet they're presented here as fact.
You could come away from this believing that Mank is a real hero of of the people and had his finger on the sort of ethical pulse. We don't know any of that is true. How do you feel about that? Because I I feel like it's when I was younger, I I had a lot of fight in me, especially about the Zuckerberg movie. I'm less so driven to angst about that now.
I'm I'm curious your take on these kinds of holes in a movie like this.
Andy Nelson: It's always tricky because we're watching a movie. They're they're designing a script to tell a story, and they want it to be something that ends up feeling cinematic and at least at least told in a cinematic way, especially these days. It's very important for Hollywood Screenwriters to, you know, fit their scripts into the the strict structure that Hollywood is so, has grown so accustomed to. But that being said, yeah. I mean, when it's based on a true story, they sometimes are playing a little fast and loose with the realities of these people.
And, you know, we're talking about Fincher and and Social Network, which you just brought up, which definitely is one that has some criticisms for those very reasons. It's one of those things that I think is always tricky because and and and this film, it's it's interesting because we actually are seeing that play out in this film. You know, we have this this buddy of Manks, Shelly Shelly Metcalf, who is, I think, a camera assistant and is allowed to direct and takes this opportunity to direct their propaganda films, but designed to look like newsreels of fake hobos getting off trains and people. It's always the the good looking concerned white people who are talking about why their support, Frank Miriam. And then you see a foreigner who has sounds like kind of a Russian accent who's talking about why he thinks Upton Sinclair is better.
You have an African American who's talking about Upton Sinclair. So they're very much designing these to sell to people, in a way that pushes them toward fear where they're gonna vote for Frank Miriam. And, of course, Miriam ends up winning. Yes. There were these that were put together by Mayer and MGM at the time.
Shelley Metcalf is a fictional fictionalized character. Totally fictional character. Right? And and that's kind of a big part of, at least per the story, Mank's growth, I guess, could say, his character arc of seeing what's happening and how these Hollywood Moguls are essentially playing as the the puppeteers guiding these politicians and and getting what they want because they have the money to do so, ousting Upton Sinclair. And and that kind of leads him to doing what he ends up doing with the writing of the script for Citizen Kane.
But, yeah, a lot of it is unsubstantiated. Like, we don't have proof that he supported Upton Sinclair. We don't have proof that he didn't, but we just don't know either way. And it's always tricky because as a filmgoer, when I watch this film and it's about old Hollywood, my assumption is kind of like they're basing it on a true story. It's not until I do some research for, like, a podcast like this where I'm like, oh, okay.
So they were fictionalizing a lot of these different elements. Yet, I would have assumed that it was based on truth had I not been doing the research and digging into it. Same thing with social network or any of these types of movies. And that's, I think, the line that I I think is always tricky, and I don't think a lot of audience members think about when they watch movies based on true stories that how much of this is fiction? How much of this is fact?
They just kind of take it as the fact that I watched a movie about it. Therefore, that must be true. And I think that's the danger with all of this. You know? But it's it it is a tricky line because we are watching movies, which part of it is designed it's going to be fiction.
It's not a documentary. And so I'm always torn, I guess, is you know, that's the long way around to my answer that I'm always torn with these sorts of things because I think it works well for the film. It's potentially dangerous. It's putting some false information out there, just like these propaganda newsreels. So where's the line?
I don't know.
Pete Wright: It's a great question. I think, you know, just take the Shelley Metcalf fake character. The guy who actually directed those news reels was Felix Feist junior. Felix Feist junior was a conservative and continued his career without any regrets at all for creating those things, reportedly. That is a fact that hurts the movie in this regard, and it doesn't allow Manks involvement to be heroic.
And I think it makes the movie much more of a of a fictional, telling. It is historical fiction. It is it's possibly, is it as as intentionally fictionalized as, Inglorious Basterds? I mean, there were Nazis. There was Hitler.
There were some things that happened differently than in reality. It's not portrayed that way. Right? It's not so obvious. It doesn't wear its fiction fictionalizations so heavily on its sleeve.
The bottom line is it's a for me, it's a really good movie, but you said it. It's not a documentary. And the degree to which it's portrayed as fact is the is the problematic part.
Andy Nelson: But is there, by default, a line when it's not a documentary, but it's a movie?
Pete Wright: I don't know. I I there it doesn't it feel like there should be? Doesn't it feel like there should be a stance that says, you know, we we made up some stuff? Some movies do that.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well and that's that's an interesting thing because it's like, we're not even getting based on a true story, like text at the start of the film that's telling us. I mean, sure. We do actually get quite a bit of text at the open setting up the story and text at the end kind of wrapping things up. So to some extent, it's it feels like it's designed to be telling a true story.
But, yeah, it's just one of those things that I I feel like they are having to fictionalize a lot. Now it's one of those things also. It's like, are they blatantly lying? I mean, yeah, the Shelley Metcalf character, that is a lot of lying. But are they lying about whether Mank was a supporter or not of Upton Sinclair?
Was that information out there at all? Like, who knows? Maybe, maybe not. If not, is
Pete Wright: it okay to fictionalize it? There's no evidence that Herman Mankowitz supported Upton Sinclair's campaign. In fact, Mankowitz was known to be political politically conservative at the time and opposed the leftward shift in Hollywood politics, but that's not well documented. There is not even any evidence that Hearst funded the fake newsreels as suggested in the film. I I think this is one of those things where a writer is taking liberties with the facts that are not well documented.
Right? That we we there is there is stuff we don't know in in a fashion that we could call significantly confirmed. And so we're gonna go ahead and make some stuff up because it fits the story. And is the result a a movie that is a a lovely portrayal and a lovely set of performances from some very talented people? Yes.
All of that is true. And that's gonna be okay.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It is interesting because, I mean, you know, I'm glad you brought up Tarantino because I feel like with Inglorious Basterds, and actually a more fitting film to talk about is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood in this particular case. A %. He has decided, I'm gonna tell stories that deal with real world things that have actually happened, but I'm going to stretch the truth so far in my own desires of where I would love to see things actually resolve that it's it's in no way can it be mistaken for reality. And I think that's an interesting direction to take that type of story where you're putting real world story on film, and then you're gonna be changing some facts.
If you're gonna change some facts, go all in.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Right. Right. So there's a certain sort of creative aesthetic between, you know, Fincher in this case and and Tarantino that that I think bears some conversation. And, but but does this does this movie violate it to the fact that, we get really angry about it?
I'll I'll say, when I first saw the Steve Jobs movie, I was really angry about it. When I first saw the social network, I was really angry about it. I was they I I felt like they were they were defiling the truth in a way that hurt the actual story. But these are not activist films. These are not films that are trying to make you change your mind about something.
They're just telling telling a story with their own perspective. And so I that's how I come to make.
Andy Nelson: Well, and I think that is fair because, I mean, you could argue. I mean, there is a line in this film where it does feel like Fincher is using this as an opportunity to discuss what was going on in modern politics. Right? And how Yes. There are people in power who have a lot of money, not necessarily just politicians, but lobbyists or other people who want to see things going certain ways who are completely content at fictionalizing news stories or making, I mean, let's just put it out there.
Fake news as is so often decried as a way to sway people's opinions and using I mean, in modern day, using social media to kind of convince people that certain things are happening. And we've definitely been seeing that a huge rise in that over the last decade. And it's it's interesting that while not necessarily a film that feels like Fincher was using to speak to our modern society and where we where we are with all of this, it definitely feels like there is an element of that that he was using as an opportunity as an opportunity to say, yeah. This stuff is happening, and it still is happening. It happened then.
It happens now. People in power are going to do what they can to stay in power and to get things to go the way they want.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Well, and to that point, I mean, for a movie that was written so long ago and had been you know, had so many hands in it leading up to the production, it does feel like certain fingers on keyboard circa 02/1718 may have added some of these elements that might be problematic that weren't in an original draft of the screenplay. Like, these feel particularly modern to the period of the late twenty tens, to your point, commentary about what was going on in the in The US political landscape. And that's a fair take for, you know, for a creator to make. Absolutely fair take to do it.
To do it in the in the voice of characters that might not have been have authentically done so themselves is the big question.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I guess another element to that is, like, how much did modern audiences care about any fictionalization when it comes to Herman J. Mankiewicz and and and team. Right? Like, a lot of people are like, like, I'm not gonna worry too much about, you know, if Shelley was a made up character, if Mank really had these opinions because to a certain extent, it's not even the story.
The story really boils down to his journey to crafting this script and because of his opinions that he had about William Randolph Hearst, how he used and abused the system, how he lorded over everyone he knew, whether it was Marion Davies, his much younger wife, or the press at the time or the, you know, the studios or whatever. And that's really the story we're looking at is Mank and his relationship and his growing concern about the way that Hearst was was, running things.
Pete Wright: Yeah. I, you know, I I don't know. I wonder if Josh or Ben Mankowitz I wonder if Ben Mankowitz has ever, you know, jumped into this fray. I I haven't read anything that that he did. But as somebody who is, you know, a host on Turner Classic Movies, a guy who has leveraged his name in as far as anybody for being an expert in classic film, I I wonder wonder where he stands.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. This is definitely, one of those Hollywood families. Right? There there's been quite a quite a number of Mankowitz's involved as writers, as, journalists. You you brought up Ben as the, host of, turn of classic movies.
I think largely, it's been writers that they've all been mainly doing, but it's a it's a big family of, people that, you know, have been talked to or that that have been circling around Hollywood for a very long time.
Pete Wright: Yeah. For sure. Neppo family.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. You know, we haven't really talked about his relationship with Marion Davies, and it is an interesting relationship that we see Marion as, over the course of the film. You know? And I I like the portrayal. Amanda Safried plays Marion Davies here.
It's interesting to kind of see that relationship grow over the decade that were decade ish that we're watching, the story as they first kind of bump into each other on set of a movie that Hearst is making with her as the star tied at the, you know, tied to the the stake, getting ready to be burned. And then just kinda we follow over a number of different conversations. I you know, the I don't know. It seems like the most prominent one is the one where they're walking around the grounds at night and passing all the monkey cages and the giraffes and the elephants and everything. And and the script is very cheeky in how it's, you know, tying into each of the animals as they as they go through each of those.
It's it's fun, but I like that relationship, and it's an interesting one to see develop. And it's particularly interesting because over the conversations he has person after person about the script and how people are, like, shocked that he's writing this takedown of Hearst. They're also shocked that he's writing a takedown of Marion, who he likes so much and has a great fondness for. But he consistently keeps saying it was not her. It's just somebody that's that feels like her, but it's not it wasn't meant to pattern after her.
I mean, it's an interesting way to kind of portray all that. How does that strike you?
Pete Wright: I think he's talking right out of his cheek. I I I think that, to me, just has always felt like Mank feeling split between incented at Hearst at a relationship gone south and wanting to tell this story, you know, about, greed and and power and also feeling guilty that he, in some ways, has to include this person that he likes but needs to rationalize it somehow. And he's doing that by saying it's not that's that's not really her, but it's really her. Everybody knows it's really her. There is no question that it's really her.
This is an in club script. Everybody knows it, and he has to figure out how to make it whole in his head, and this is what that looks like. And I think that portrayal of guilt and drive is what makes Manx such an interesting and compelling character.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. What do you think of Seyfried in the role?
Pete Wright: She's great. I think she's great. I think she is so like, Seyfried's an interesting actor as you know, we just did Jennifer's body on sitting in the dark. Sitting in the dark. I remember that show.
I'm on it. You know, I'd forgotten her in this movie because in that movie, you know, they try to make her the ugly nerdy girl by putting glasses on her, and it's it doesn't it doesn't play. I was surprised at how lost I got in her character in this movie in a way that I haven't in some other movies that she's done. Right? I think Les Mis, I don't think I got lost in fully lost in anybody.
Everybody felt like they were portraying something even as she played a a central role in that movie. I, you know, mean girls, it's it's always just sort of they're all mean girls.
Andy Nelson: Well, that's where she got her start. So yeah.
Pete Wright: That's where she got her start. Right? Everybody. But for this this movie, I feel like I really saw a talent one of those talents of the ages, not just a not just a sort of a young actor, a child actor who became something more.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I generally like her, but I don't feel like I've seen enough of, like, or maybe I just haven't had the chance to see many, what I would call, like, great performances from her, you know, like like like, I yeah. She was fine in Mean Girls. It was it was fine.
Pete Wright: They all feel like Amanda Seyfried, you know, a lot of those movies.
Andy Nelson: I just yeah. I don't know beyond that. It's like, I've seen her in other things, but, like, there's nothing that she's done. I I I guess first reformed would be the next thing one that I would say. I feel like I was seeing a great performance.
You know, there's a there's a a bit of a great performance in that one. I liked her,
Pete Wright: in that quite a bit.
Andy Nelson: It's a great movie. But, yeah, that's kind of it. I know we'll be talking about her again later in the season when we talk about the art of racing in the rain.
Trailer: Mhmm.
Andy Nelson: In the in what in our car race series. But, yeah, otherwise, I think she's fine. I I think she does a great job here, and she's somebody that I generally enjoy. But I, again, feel like I want an opportunity to see more from her and things. Less Mamma Mia types of movies and and more things where she's given a chance to do a little more.
Pete Wright: Oh, you know, where she was good. She was not a central as central, like, character as Emile Hirsch, but alpha dog was quite good.
Andy Nelson: Okay. I didn't see that one.
Pete Wright: Yeah. That was a good movie. Anyway, so yeah. You're right. I mean, I think a lot of movies are casting her because she's her, and and this is one of those movies where it did feel like she was she was playing a a character.
That she was playing somebody, a little bit more substance. I thought it was great.
Andy Nelson: Particularly like the scene where she's talking a lot at one of the many parties that we have at Hearst's, where she suddenly starts she shifts into politics and goes into how Hearst is funding stuff. And this is when I can't remember the the actual political person is at the party as well. Rexford Tugwell, what a what a name, who is, Roosevelt's, one of Roosevelt's guys. And then she suddenly, after she gets a look from Hearst, realizes that she's saying things she shouldn't in a situation that should be hearing any of those things and has to do a a u-turn real quick and and talk about how she just sometimes is talking when she doesn't know what she's talking about. And that was interesting to see kind of that part of that relationship.
And definitely portrayed. Like, I think she's I think she's great.
Trailer: And I think this
Pete Wright: is goes to, like, directors giving actors, you know, something really meaty to do. And I think a lot, looking at at a bunch of her work, you get that feeling that that it's directors who, you know, who are casting her for one reason. And it's the, like, the mean girls reason. This is one of those where I feel like Fincher got a lot out of her, and she brought it. You know?
She brought it.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Any other of of the actors stand out for you in this?
Pete Wright: Well, it's a good it's a good movie for faces. Right? There are just a lot of really wonderful people in the movie. I was surprised, and and pleased by Lily Collins' performance. I think she you know, it's a pretty subdued, kind of a small performance, but I think she was she was just a real charmer at bedside, you know, transcribing the works of of Mank.
She had a little bit of story. Right? Her her husband potentially lost, in the war, and so there was something to follow there. There wasn't a lot for her to work with, but I I really enjoyed it. You know, Arliss Howard as Louie Bee Mayer.
Fantastic. Wife, Sarah Mankiewicz played by Tuppence Middleton. How can we not say the word Tuppence on the podcast? Fantastic. And our our man David Oselznick.
I thought Toby Leonard Moore did a fantastic job here. So just a lot of a lot of great faces.
Andy Nelson: Well, Charles dances William Randolph Hearst is great, of course. The the whole parable of the organ grinder's monkey that he relays is a a fantastic one. But, yeah, it's like him and Arliss Howard are the two other standouts for me. Arliss Howard, especially as mayor, is just big and really just carries that role in ways that makes you hate this head of the studio. You know?
It's it's it's fascinating to kind of get this insider's look. Again, who knows how much truth there is to it, but you do get a sense of these people of these powerful positions. And I I like, those are the two other real standouts for me in the film.
Pete Wright: I I, I agree. You dropped Resner and Ross, as just as we wrap up early on that they did the score using period instruments. I think these guys well, you know, they're some of my very favorite, working in in film, in music today, right now. And I I listen to almost exclusively Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross scores when I'm writing. It's like my musical bible to to creating words.
I love this score very, very much. It is so different from anything else they do. It shows that I think they are capable of so much more musicality than I would normally give them credit for. You know, when you look at something else like the social network, kind of one of their pinnacle pieces. I really enjoyed the score.
What'd you think of it?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I I think it's a great score. Again, it sounds so different from their music because of the fact that it's done specifically designed to feel like a score from the forties, like, with period authentic instrumentation. So I I really like it. It does have a nice feel that while I don't know if it's something that I would I've never tried this, but it'd be interesting to put it on next to other films from the period and see how it plays.
Like, does it actually feel like it could have been written in in the forties? I don't know. But I do think it's a good score of theirs. I do think it's interesting that they shot this film I think they finished shooting February 2020 right before COVID struck. And so all of the postproduction pretty much was done during COVID.
And one of the big things that had to get done during COVID was the orchestration of their score. And because this was right at the peak of COVID and everyone was trying to figure stuff out and everyone was was at home, every person who was in the orchestra had to record their sections at home and then send it in for them to mix. And I think that's an exorbitant amount of extra work that they likely had to to do, which, it's crazy. You know?
Pete Wright: God. I get that's incredible. Yeah. Incredible.
Andy Nelson: A lot of work.
Pete Wright: It does it is funny. You know, if you go on and listen to what they did for empire of light, it has some similar tones to it. It feels like, you know, we're we're actually getting to hear lessons learned from Manc and applied just a few years later to another score that is just a a lovely celebration of cinema. Whatever you thought of the movie, the score is quite lovely. Short.
Very short.
Andy Nelson: Last little thing. This is an interesting movie to have a wide variety of people playing other famous people from Hollywood. Did you as you watch I don't know how many times you've seen it now, but do you play games with yourself trying to go, okay. I figured out who that person is. I figured out who that person is.
Because there are so many of them, and they call some of them out like Ben Hecht. Okay. We know another the writer Ben Hecht is one of the characters in the film. But do you have you been able to pinpoint many? Because there are quite a few.
Wow.
Pete Wright: You know, I don't think I have ever I don't think I've ever fallen into that game. Now I will. I'm sure. But I'm sure you did.
Andy Nelson: I I try, but I always fail because I I early on, we're getting a scene in the writer's room with when his buddy, Charles Lederer, comes to town to drawn in by Mank and his his letter to come help in town. And so you've aside from the people we've mentioned, like Herman and Joseph Mankiewicz, Louis B. Mayer, William Randolph Hearst, Irving Thalberg, David Oselznick, but Charles Letterer, Orson Welles, John Houseman is in here. Upton Sinclair, Bill Nye, the science guy, of course, is playing Upton Sinclair, Ben Hecht, Charlie Chaplin. I don't I don't think I've ever caught Charlie Chaplin in the film, and I'm like, when does Charlie Chaplin appear?
I still don't know when he shows up, but he's in there somewhere. Marion Davies, of course. But then Dolores Del Rio, George s Kaufman, Lionel Barrymore, he's the one who stands up at the, when when mayor comes out to the whole crew to ask them to take the pay cut, and he's like, I'm with you. And there someone else is like, well, yeah, Barrymore, but you get so they call him out by name. Yeah.
Greta Garbo, Joseph Von Sternberg, of course, we see in the writers room. Norma Shearer, Eleanor Boardman, Joan Crawford, Geraldine Fitzgerald, Billy Dove, Rexford Tugwell, I mentioned, Betty Davis, Clark Gable, Charles MacArthur, Darryl f Zanek, SJ Perlman, Carol Lombard, and Eddie Cantor.
Trailer: Wow.
Andy Nelson: I I'm like, are a lot of those in that scene when it's like the like, who had contracts at MGM, like, at the speech? Or, like, I'm assuming it was either there or at a dinner party at Hearst's Castle. Like, those are the two places that that I assume they are.
Pete Wright: That it's gotta be like, faces like Charlie Chaplin's gotta be in that scene. It's gotta be in that speech.
Andy Nelson: Although, I know he I mean, you know, we talked about our pre show chat about Peter Bogdanovich's the cat's meow. We know that Chaplin had kind of a relationship with Hurston likely could have been at one of those parties. Although yeah. So who really knows?
Pete Wright: Chaplin was just there. He's, like, in the corner of Menck's bedroom all the time, and we've just never seen it.
Andy Nelson: Have you ever been to San Simeon to, like, Hearst Castle?
Pete Wright: Yes. I'll say yes as a child, and I don't remember it.
Andy Nelson: You? I went there. It was one of the stops on my honeymoon, and it was a it is a trip. It is a massive, massive place that like, we did one of the tours, and it's like a I don't know. Hour and a half, two hour tour or something like that.
And they have, like, four different tours or something, and everyone is totally different part of the house. So you could go on all of the tours, and you're still, you know, seeing something new every time. It's it's crazy how big the place is and how much how much stuff there is. And, of course, it is very silent on any mention of anything having to do with Citizen Kane and that whole thing. So but it's it's a beautiful place.
If you get the chance, it's definitely worth taking a tour or two or three or however many.
Pete Wright: Well, we you know, it's one of those things, like, were always down there when we lived there, and I used to take Gira on road trips down the coast, and you could see it, like, on the hill and as you drive through San Luis Obispo. But as an adult, I never went. Yeah. That's a bummer. They don't still have the giraffes.
Right?
Andy Nelson: They had nothing, animal wise. I think they had sold them all to zoos or something. Crazy. Yeah. It's crazy.
Alright. Well, I think that's it. So we'll be right back. But first, our credits.
Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Rotem Cinnamon, Stryker Big Band, the original orchestra featuring Ziv Moran, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at d-numbers.com, box office mojo Com, I m d b Com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
It was a night like any other. Rain on the pavement, neon flickering in the puddles, and me sitting in my office, nursing a lukewarm cup of coffee and a bad decision. That's when she walked in. A dame with style, confidence, and, get this, a T shirt featuring the full filmography of Akira Kurosawa? Yeah.
You heard me right. She said she got it from the next real merch store on TeePublic. I leaned forward. Go on, I said. She smirked.
She slid a matchstick across the desk and lit up the room with a secret only the true cinephiles know.
Trailer: They've got designs for all the greats, Kubrick, Leone, Carpenter, film podcast merch that actually means something.
Pete Wright: I took a drag of my imaginary cigarette. And the price?
Trailer: Right around $20, she said. But they got hats and mugs and all kinds of stuff too.
Pete Wright: I whistled low, a steal, and better yet, free US shipping on orders over $80. So here's the deal, kid. If you love movies, if you live and breathe the silver screen, you head straight to the NextReal merch store at the nextreal.com/merch. Get yourself something classic before the credits roll. Sequels and remakes, Andy?
It's pretty recent. I can't imagine us, hearing a sequel or remake of Mank.
Andy Nelson: Mank two. Oh, no. There's nothing. But I did think that just it's worth mentioning in relation to Citizen Kane, which obviously should be the first thing you watch. If you're interested in this movie, check out Citizen Kane.
Definitely worth the watch. But there are two other films worth checking out. One is the, the documentary, the battle over Citizen Kane that really kind of goes into it's like a feature length documentary. I think it was actually nominated for a best documentary Oscar. Really interesting, deep dive into everything that was going on with that particular film.
And then there was a fictionalized TV movie based on that called r k o two eighty one that came out shortly thereafter. Both of those are worth checking out. And I think some of the Citizen Kane, Blu rays, maybe even the four k have those included as bonus features. So, lots of great stuff out there worth checking out.
Pete Wright: Interesting. I have the Apple Store version of the four k restoration of Citizen Kane. What do I have? Andy, I don't know. Does it have that extra feature on it now?
It's all I can think about.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I don't know. You'll have to go look.
Pete Wright: Well, while I'm checking that, you should tell me about award season. I think it got some notice, Mank.
Andy Nelson: A little bit. Yeah. This, it it had 10 Oscar nominations. It was the the leader as far as number of Oscars in 2020. It was nominated for best picture, but not lost to nomadland.
Best actor for Gary Old man, but lost to Anthony Hopkins in the father. Fincher was nominated for best director, but lost to Chloe Zhao for nomadland. Supporting actress Amanda Safrid was nominated, but lost to Yao Nguyen Zhong for Minari. Best sound was nominated, but lost to sound of metal. Best production design, it won.
Best original score, Reznor and Ross were nominated, but they lost to soul, losing to themselves. Was nominated for best makeup and hairstyling, but lost to Ma Rainey's black bottom. Also lost to Ma Rainey's black bottom for costume design. And last but not least, Eric Messerschmidt did win his first Oscar for this for best cinematography. And I did mention this did have 66 wins with 274 other nominations.
So it was a very nominated film. At the Saturn Awards, weirdly, the, horror, sci fi, and fantasy awards, this had four nominations. Apparently, because they consider it a thriller film, it ended up getting in the nominations. It was, nominated for best thriller film but lost to knives out, best music but lost to star wars episode nine, the rise of skywalker, Best actor, but lost to John David Washington for tenant, and best supporting actress, but lost to Anna de Armas for knives out. At the AARP movies for grown ups awards, always fun to bring those into the mix.
Best actor was nominated, but lost to Anthony Hopkins for the father, and it won for best time capsule film, which I thought was kind of fun. I did think this was just, as far as statistics go, interesting. Jack Fincher, all told, was nominated 22 times posthumously. Again, he died in 02/2003, but he only won once at the VHS awards. David Fincher was nominated for 19, 19 times for best director.
He won none of them. Eric Messerschmidt was nominated 42 times, won 10 for best cinematography, and Gary Old man was nominated 24 times for best actor, did not win once. Wow. Yeah. So there you go.
There you go. Interesting to see how well it was thought of at the awards even if it didn't win as many.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Alright. Well, that takes us to, the budget. And I know one of the things you like the most about doing these movies is that Netflix is so transparent about, all of their numbers.
Andy Nelson: Yes. Aren't they though? They're just the best. Oh, Netflix.
Pete Wright: So transparent.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, I did get some budget info. Yes. You're alluding to. I have very little information about the box office because it was limited.
And the other thing is COVID. Right?
Trailer: We
Andy Nelson: have Netflix and we have COVID. Fincher had $25,000,000 for this or 30,500,000.0 in today's dollars. The movie opened limited 11/13/2020 in that window of COVID where lots of people just weren't going to theaters yet anyway. And then it landed on Netflix just a few weeks later and only ended up in theaters again briefly after its Oscar nominations. There was a report that when it was released on Netflix that it did make it into the top 10 for its first day that it appeared there.
That was it. After that, it just kind of dropped off. So who knows? Anyway, I have no idea how much it earned domestically, but they did post it or a hundred 22,572 internationally or a hundred and $49,538 today. So with these numbers, it looks like an adjusted loss per finished minute of 231,600.0, which is pretty low.
But again, that's not how Netflix counts money. So we're just gonna assume it was a profitable film. Yeah. Somehow,
Pete Wright: who really Netflix doesn't count money, Andy. They burn it. I think that has been proven in court. Okay. Well, I don't care what Netflix did with money.
I love it. I really had a good time with this movie. You know, I like the the aesthetic of it. I like the cigarette burns. I like the just the choices they made to to try to make the movie look and feel and sound, like it was of the era.
And to me, it plays. It works.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I think it's a really interesting film. Again, it's not a film that I love of Fincher's, but it's, you know, as strong as anything that he's doing because I think he's just such a a strong director in how he crafts his stories. So, I really enjoy this world also, just kind of the old Hollywood world. So it's an easy one for me to just sit down and dig into and, just really, really enjoy.
So it's, yeah, it's a it's a good film. Well, and that's everything. So we'll be right back for our ratings. But first, here's the trailer for next week's movie kicking off our People Hunting People series. It's Irving Pitchell's and Ernest B.
Schodzak's nineteen thirty two film, The Most Dangerous Game.
Trailer: Anybody around? Our yacht just sunk with all hands. Welcome to Laetour Fortress. Here on my island, I have invented a new sensation. He sleeps all day and hunts all night.
Trailer: Come there, it was so interesting I didn't realize the danger.
Trailer: But what do you hunt here? I hunt the most dangerous game. The most dangerous game? You killed my mother. Why you?
You raving me. So that's your most dangerous game. You take half grown men from ships you erect and drive them out to be hunted. I give them hunting cruise, a woodsmen's knife, and a full day stuff. Say you will hunt with me.
Hunt men? What do you think I am?
Andy Nelson: Alright. Here's the pitch. Fade in on a guy, a film lover, a real cinephile. See, he's the kind of fellow who lives and breathes movies, who can't get enough of the flickers of the silver screen. But lately, he's been feeling a little lost, like he's wandering through a fog searching for something to hold on to.
He's tried everything. See, late night movie marathons, film festivals, even those fancy art house theaters with the tiny seats and the overpriced popcorn, but nothing seems to scratch that itch, that hunger for something more. And then one day, he stumbles upon a podcast. They call it the next real film podcast. And from the moment he hits play, he's hooked.
The hosts, they've got this way of talking about movies that makes him feel like he's right there in the room with them, trading quips and insights like old pals. But our hero, he's not content to just listen, see. He wants to be a part of the action, to dive deeper into the films that make his heart race and his mind whir, and that's where the membership comes in. For just five clams a month for 55 smackers for the whole year, our hero can join the ranks of the Next Wheel's most devoted fans. He'll get early access to ad free episodes, monthly bonus content, and a VIP pass to the entire Next Wheel family of film podcasts.
But more than that, he'll be part of community, the band of film lovers who will share his passion, his obsession. He'll swap stories with them, argue about the merits of the latest blockbuster, and geek out over obscure gems that nobody else has even heard of. It's like a dream come true for our heroes. See? A chance to finally find his people, to be part of something bigger than himself.
And all he has to do is head over to truestory.fm/join and take the plunge. As he types it in, his fingers shaking with excitement, we fade out on our hero, a grin spreading across his face. He knows he's found something special, something that'll keep the flickers burning bright in his heart for years to come. And that's the pitch kid, a story about a man, a podcast, and the magic that happens when they come together. It's the kind of tale that'll make you laugh, make you cry, and make you wanna run out and join the club yourself.
So what do you say? You ready to sign up to become part of something bigger than yourself? All you gotta do is head over to truestory.fm/join, then take the leap. Trust me, kid. It's a decision you won't regret.
Pete Wright: Letterbox, Sandy. You remember Letterboxd. Letterboxd Com / the next reel. That's where our reviews live, and everybody should go there too because it's great. What are you gonna do for your stars and hearts?
Andy Nelson: This is, one of my lower ranked David Fincher films. I I give it three and a half. I really do enjoy it. I think there's a lot to it. It's not one that I would put on as regularly as some of the other ones.
But when I do sit down to watch it, I do find myself drawn in. So three and a half and a heart. I do find it to be fair to be sitting at that point.
Pete Wright: Well, I'm a little bit higher than you at four stars and a heart. Oh, and it it it really comes to that because I started looking at my entire ranking, and I couldn't justify putting it in a place that would put it in the category of my very favorite feature films. It's not quite there. I love it. I love my time with it, and it's no seven.
Andy Nelson: No. No. It isn't. Yeah. Right?
Pete Wright: It's no fight club. And and in some respects, it's because it's doing something that is sort of pedestrian when you compare it to the stories of those other movies. And it's there's it's not twisty. It's lovely, but it doesn't it doesn't make me kind of work in that satisfying way that, that those other movies do.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I think that's the thing. Like, it's it's a really interesting film. I can see why with his dad having written the scripts, done the research, done the work to put it together, it's a great honor to see, David Fincher kind of make this, get a chance to actually tell the story in a way to honor his dad and what he had done. But, yeah, it's it ends up being a film that I think I enjoy I I enjoy in a different way for for from what I'm really enjoying in so many of Fincher's other films.
Pete Wright: Exactly. Like, I show up to Fincher for a certain reason, and Mank isn't it.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Well, that'll average out to 3.75 and a heart, when we add it together, which will round up to four over on our account on Letterboxd, which you can find us there at the next reel.
You can find me there at Soda Creek Film. You can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about Mink? We would love to hear your thoughts. Hop in at the Show Talk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week.
When the movie ends, our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Letterbox give it to Andrew.
Andy Nelson: As Letterbox always doeth.
Pete Wright: Yeah. What do you got this week?
Andy Nelson: I decided I was gonna drop to the bottom of the barrel and see who's out there, who really hates this because a lot of people didn't seem to like it very much. David Horowitz gave it one star and said, I feel like Mank is my punishment for being too into movies.
Pete Wright: God. Well, did not like care for this movie. I've I you know, I I do think that there is, like, I understand some of what people are are talking about, but most of it, don't. Like, a hunter strawberry who says, basically, this movie is Orson Welles trying to get Mankowitz ownership share diluted down to three hundredths of a percent. Okay.
I mean, I there's some of that in the movie, but my favorite was was Gal Pacino's no star, no heart. I got shot at on my drive home from watching Mank, and Mank was still the worst part of my night. Ouch. That smarts. So there you go.
Thanks, Letterboxd.