WEBVTT

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Graphene OS has released an in-house

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text-to-speech software,

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California is exempting Linux from age

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verification laws,

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and some major new research in both

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privacy and cybersecurity.

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All this and more coming up on This

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Week in Privacy, so stay tuned.

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we're working on

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within the Privacy Guides community and

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this week's top stories in data privacy

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and cybersecurity.

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I am Nate.

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Glad to be back.

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And with me this week is Jordan.

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How have you been, Jordan?

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Oh, you're muted.

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Good.

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Yes.

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Thank you.

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Let's comment to dive into some of the

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stories this week.

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All right, yeah, there's, oh man,

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there were so many stories this week,

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so many big stories,

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but we picked a handful of the ones

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we feel are the most important,

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and we're gonna go ahead and dive into

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those,

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starting with the initial release of

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Graphene OS speech services for

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text-to-speech.

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So this is kind of what it says

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on the tin.

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You know, to be totally honest,

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it's very straightforward,

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but it's still really exciting and pretty

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big.

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I don't personally I'm subscribed to an

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RSS feed where I'm subscribed to a lot

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of the major projects in the privacy

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community.

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So like

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I think I'm subscribed to the blog for

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Signal, Debian, Fedora,

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a bunch of projects.

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And Graphene is one of them.

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But I kind of only get their releases,

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I think, on GitHub or something.

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So I don't know if this is something

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they announced they've been working on for

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a while or not.

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But to me,

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it kind of came out of nowhere.

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And, um, it's pretty cool.

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So it, uh, again,

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it is what it sounds like.

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It's if, if you have, well, I mean,

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any phone really, um, you know,

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when it talks to you,

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like if you're using a navigation app or

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you're using a Duolingo or, um,

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trying to think what else, uh,

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maybe like a screen reader.

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Um, a lot of these apps do not,

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as far as I know, don't come, uh,

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like built in with their own voice

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library.

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Um,

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they rely on the phone's text to speech

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ability and, uh,

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For those of you who have ever used

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a custom OS,

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you may have realized that

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A lot of the custom OSs do not

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come with a built-in text-to-speech

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library.

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And up until now,

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I believe I saw in the comments on

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this thread that Sherpa is a really

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popular one.

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I've never heard of that.

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I hate to admit,

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I historically have relied on just the

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Google text-to-speech.

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I've went and downloaded that from the

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Play Store,

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which is probably not great for privacy.

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I honestly,

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it didn't even occur to me that there

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was a...

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I think I did a search in F-Droid

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and I didn't find anything,

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and that's why I did that.

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But...

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Might check out Sherpa now.

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I don't know.

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But this is really cool because Graphene

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now has their own that they're offering.

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It is currently only available for US

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English.

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And if you're in another language,

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you basically have to go and manually

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change that.

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It says here in this announcement that

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once it's bundled with the OS,

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it will be enabled by default.

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So activating it won't be necessary.

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According to the changelog,

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that just happened, I think,

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on the twenty fourth.

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So like earlier this week.

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So if you are a Graphian user and

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you are on the latest version or you're

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about to install it,

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this should be enabled by default.

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If for some reason you are not on

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the latest version,

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the Android UI for this is super,

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super confusing because...

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Let's say you go ahead and download this.

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Let's say you're on an old version.

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You download it and you go to settings

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and you go to system and you go

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to language and region.

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It says all this right here, speech,

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text to speech output, preferred engine.

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It'll show it there.

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And it looks like it's enabled.

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So it's really confusing because you're

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like, yeah, it's there.

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It's on.

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Why isn't it working?

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But again, it's bad UI.

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You have to actually click on it and

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select it as if it wasn't there.

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It's a horrible UI.

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And that's not graphene for the record.

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That's just Android.

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That's Google.

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That's all on them.

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It's terrible,

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but thankfully it's bundled by default.

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So now you won't even have to think

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about it and it'll work.

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They say that this was built from a

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fully open source model for text to

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speech,

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which they created themselves using

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existing open source code and data.

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And they actually,

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I guess they just recently got like a

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better, I think that's a GPU and RTX,

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so now they can continue to improve it

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and they can build these models faster and

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stuff like that.

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They said that they will most likely be

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doing German and French next.

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because they believe those are their next

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biggest user bases.

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And they said UK English would likely be

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much easier to add because of the shared

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code and data.

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So pretty interesting stuff.

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And what I thought was exciting was they

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said they also plan to make their own

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speech-to-text implementation so you can

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talk to the phone, again,

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for things like Duolingo or not so much

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voice notes, but I think dictation.

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You can say what your text messages are

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and stuff like that.

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They said that if they do more languages,

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they might add the language as an optional

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download in the App Store,

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the Graphene App Store,

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just because that would be a lot of

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stuff to download.

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And I get it.

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Let's say they get a lot of community

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support and they're able to pump out

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German and French and Finnish and Chinese

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and all these other languages.

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I personally would have no need for those.

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So I really appreciate them trying to keep

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the model pretty light.

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But yeah, I think that's kind of the...

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The core of this announcement,

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the only thing I did not see anywhere,

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I don't believe it's...

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Because sometimes Graphene will make some

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of their apps available publicly,

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like their camera and their PDF reader.

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You can go download those from the Play

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Store right now.

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But I did not see any indication that

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they're going to be doing that for this.

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I don't know if that's something they're

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planning to do or not, but...

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I didn't see anything about that.

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So those are kind of the facts of

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the story.

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I'll turn it over to Jordan first.

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I don't know if I have a whole

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lot of analysis or opinions,

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but so Jordan,

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did you have any thoughts on this one?

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I mean,

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I just think this is a good step

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in the right direction, right?

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Like we should be having

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this feature built in by default.

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I think accessibility gets put on the back

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burner a bit.

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I think most people when they think of

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text-to-speech, this is mainly used...

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The thing that came to mind for me

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personally was navigation apps.

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You probably want

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Because I don't know,

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it depends on where you live, I guess.

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But generally looking at a phone while

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you're driving is legal.

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So you probably don't want to do that.

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So like having someone read out

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instructions is kind of important, right?

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Like that's a basic function that I think

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a lot of people would

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would want right and that's something that

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has originally it was done through

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Google's speech synthesis um model which

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you know that's another problem you have

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to download that from Google you probably

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don't want to have to do that if

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you can avoid it right so um I

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think this is just another addition though

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that Graphene OS has been doing where

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they've been building out stuff

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specifically for like

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like as a replacement for Google's tools,

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right?

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Like we saw how they've got, you know,

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they proxy a lot of requests that are

00:07:48.507 --> 00:07:49.869
made on the operating system,

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stuff like that.

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It's just another additional thing where

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we're not relying on Google for their

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software because, you know,

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like we saw

00:08:01.206 --> 00:08:02.646
we've been seeing, I guess,

00:08:02.807 --> 00:08:06.110
is that Google is kind of being a

00:08:06.151 --> 00:08:07.391
bit restrictive with their whole

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ecosystem.

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The future of Graphene OS on Google Pixels

00:08:13.336 --> 00:08:15.480
is a little bit up in the air.

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There's a possibility that it may not

00:08:17.721 --> 00:08:21.805
continue in the future or it might have

00:08:21.906 --> 00:08:22.846
issues because

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Google wants to lock things down and limit

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access right so I think this is good

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from that perspective and also for people

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that are you know low vision or no

00:08:37.136 --> 00:08:39.258
vision you know like some people use their

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phone like specifically in uh in Android

00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:44.623
there's this option for talkback

00:08:45.471 --> 00:08:46.932
which basically allows you to navigate

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your phone without having to look at the

00:08:48.955 --> 00:08:49.855
screen, right?

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So I think this is also going to

00:08:52.977 --> 00:08:55.240
be kind of big because I think,

00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:57.022
you know, here at Privacy Guides,

00:08:57.361 --> 00:08:59.082
we really kind of push this a lot,

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but like privacy should be accessible to

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anyone, especially, you know,

00:09:03.466 --> 00:09:06.028
people that shouldn't be excluding people

00:09:06.068 --> 00:09:06.509
based on,

00:09:07.634 --> 00:09:08.654
silly things like that, right?

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I think this is just a step in

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the right direction on that aspect from an

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accessibility point of view as well.

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Like for people that...

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I think having this added by default is

00:09:19.802 --> 00:09:21.083
going to make it a lot easier, right?

00:09:21.124 --> 00:09:22.705
Because before you would have to go

00:09:22.765 --> 00:09:25.067
through, log into the Google Play Store,

00:09:25.167 --> 00:09:26.048
download this thing.

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It's like you can't expect someone to be

00:09:28.450 --> 00:09:29.049
able to do that.

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So I think this is pretty cool.

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It's a good addition.

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I personally found that...

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This wasn't enabled for me by default.

00:09:39.239 --> 00:09:40.399
I had to go and download it on

00:09:40.419 --> 00:09:42.402
the GrapheneOS app store and then follow

00:09:42.422 --> 00:09:44.923
the instructions in the GrapheneOS forum

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to actually enable this.

00:09:46.184 --> 00:09:48.447
So I would probably look at that if

00:09:48.467 --> 00:09:49.769
you're interested in using this.

00:09:50.549 --> 00:09:52.171
Another thing is it's...

00:09:53.052 --> 00:09:54.591
I think they definitely are going to be

00:09:54.652 --> 00:09:55.993
working on the sound of this a little

00:09:56.013 --> 00:09:56.232
bit.

00:09:56.493 --> 00:09:59.793
I'll just play some example audio clips

00:09:59.833 --> 00:10:01.254
right now so you can hear kind of

00:10:01.274 --> 00:10:02.034
what it sounds like,

00:10:02.054 --> 00:10:04.134
because I'm sure some of you probably are

00:10:04.154 --> 00:10:04.955
wondering that.

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Here's just a test from Organic Maps.

00:10:09.236 --> 00:10:11.157
If you know a software developer,

00:10:11.397 --> 00:10:13.597
you can ask him or her to implement

00:10:13.677 --> 00:10:15.778
a feature that you need.

00:10:15.898 --> 00:10:17.979
Our main goal is to build fast,

00:10:18.158 --> 00:10:19.318
privacy focused,

00:10:19.698 --> 00:10:21.799
easy to use maps that you will love.

00:10:22.832 --> 00:10:25.355
So, I mean, I think it sounds fine.

00:10:25.975 --> 00:10:27.296
You can understand what it's saying,

00:10:27.355 --> 00:10:27.596
right?

00:10:28.116 --> 00:10:33.561
But I think it's definitely a very

00:10:33.941 --> 00:10:34.361
early...

00:10:35.542 --> 00:10:36.783
I think it definitely doesn't sound as

00:10:36.802 --> 00:10:38.365
good as what Google offers, right?

00:10:38.404 --> 00:10:39.765
Which kind of makes sense.

00:10:40.245 --> 00:10:41.606
They're a massive trillion-dollar

00:10:41.626 --> 00:10:42.246
corporation.

00:10:43.248 --> 00:10:46.691
But I think it does what it says

00:10:46.730 --> 00:10:47.350
on the tin.

00:10:47.471 --> 00:10:48.052
So, I mean,

00:10:48.631 --> 00:10:51.033
I think that's just good in that respect.

00:10:52.495 --> 00:10:52.695
But yeah,

00:10:52.715 --> 00:10:54.897
it wasn't enabled by default if you

00:10:54.917 --> 00:10:56.457
already have the operating system

00:10:56.538 --> 00:10:57.158
installed.

00:10:57.239 --> 00:10:58.940
But I think like Nate said,

00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:02.123
it'll be enabled by default and selected

00:11:02.482 --> 00:11:04.183
on new installations possibly.

00:11:04.845 --> 00:11:07.067
So I would follow the instructions if

00:11:07.086 --> 00:11:08.467
you're interested in getting that

00:11:08.508 --> 00:11:08.988
installed.

00:11:11.309 --> 00:11:12.250
So just to clarify,

00:11:12.630 --> 00:11:14.231
you're saying that when you updated to the

00:11:14.272 --> 00:11:15.133
latest release,

00:11:15.273 --> 00:11:16.374
like you already had graphene,

00:11:16.433 --> 00:11:18.115
you updated to the new release and it

00:11:18.134 --> 00:11:20.756
still wasn't enabled by default for you as

00:11:20.777 --> 00:11:21.498
a pre-existing user?

00:11:23.292 --> 00:11:24.835
So I had to go into the GrapheneOS

00:11:24.934 --> 00:11:28.581
app store and download this package.

00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:30.364
So the GrapheneOS speech synthesis

00:11:30.403 --> 00:11:30.903
package,

00:11:31.004 --> 00:11:32.927
and then I was able to enable it

00:11:32.947 --> 00:11:33.589
in the settings.

00:11:34.462 --> 00:11:36.504
Okay, okay.

00:11:36.543 --> 00:11:37.303
So yeah, so okay,

00:11:37.344 --> 00:11:38.744
I guess if you're an existing user,

00:11:39.264 --> 00:11:41.284
you have to go grab it via the

00:11:41.325 --> 00:11:42.546
instructions here on this post,

00:11:42.586 --> 00:11:44.025
which are in the show notes.

00:11:44.426 --> 00:11:45.567
We link directly to this post,

00:11:45.626 --> 00:11:47.726
but if you are moving to Graphene for

00:11:47.746 --> 00:11:48.347
the first time,

00:11:48.408 --> 00:11:49.388
it should all be bundled with,

00:11:49.467 --> 00:11:50.128
which is pretty cool.

00:11:51.128 --> 00:11:51.268
Yeah,

00:11:51.288 --> 00:11:52.249
there were a couple things you said that

00:11:52.269 --> 00:11:53.328
I wanted to add to.

00:11:53.389 --> 00:11:53.688
Number one,

00:11:53.729 --> 00:11:55.110
you did mention the Google one, and...

00:11:56.149 --> 00:11:57.291
One thing I forgot to mention is the

00:11:57.311 --> 00:11:58.451
Google one, in my experience,

00:11:59.373 --> 00:12:02.215
doesn't always work offline because I know

00:12:02.235 --> 00:12:04.076
that's kind of like that was my first

00:12:04.116 --> 00:12:05.197
thought when I was like, OK, well,

00:12:05.217 --> 00:12:06.839
I'll download the Google speech synthesis

00:12:06.918 --> 00:12:08.480
and then I'll just use the firewall to

00:12:08.561 --> 00:12:09.922
just cut off access.

00:12:10.402 --> 00:12:11.082
And for some reason,

00:12:11.123 --> 00:12:12.244
some people said they've done that

00:12:12.283 --> 00:12:12.803
successfully.

00:12:12.844 --> 00:12:13.825
For me, that didn't work.

00:12:14.466 --> 00:12:16.366
It like needed an Internet connection.

00:12:17.648 --> 00:12:19.429
But yeah,

00:12:19.450 --> 00:12:20.990
so it is really that is one reason

00:12:21.010 --> 00:12:22.631
it's really cool to have this like private

00:12:22.793 --> 00:12:23.994
alternative platform.

00:12:24.514 --> 00:12:26.174
It is if you're one of those people

00:12:26.195 --> 00:12:27.416
that it's not working for you to just

00:12:27.436 --> 00:12:28.176
firewall Google.

00:12:28.956 --> 00:12:30.298
And yeah,

00:12:30.337 --> 00:12:31.217
I also just want to back up what

00:12:31.238 --> 00:12:32.479
you're saying about accessibility is I

00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:34.900
feel like and, you know,

00:12:35.081 --> 00:12:37.081
I I have good vision as long as

00:12:37.121 --> 00:12:38.102
I have my glasses on.

00:12:38.942 --> 00:12:40.464
So so I could be wrong here,

00:12:40.504 --> 00:12:42.525
but I feel like open source has done

00:12:42.625 --> 00:12:42.645
a.

00:12:43.946 --> 00:12:45.106
mostly OK job,

00:12:45.147 --> 00:12:46.447
at least some of the bigger services like

00:12:46.486 --> 00:12:47.048
Mastodon.

00:12:47.067 --> 00:12:49.129
People are really sticklers,

00:12:49.208 --> 00:12:49.788
in a good way,

00:12:49.869 --> 00:12:53.510
for making sure that you alt text your

00:12:53.530 --> 00:12:54.831
pictures and stuff like that.

00:12:54.991 --> 00:12:55.912
And I know even Loops,

00:12:55.951 --> 00:12:56.893
when I upload Loops,

00:12:56.913 --> 00:12:58.793
there's an option to add a description of

00:12:58.813 --> 00:12:59.193
the video.

00:12:59.934 --> 00:13:04.256
And so I feel like some privacy or

00:13:04.277 --> 00:13:06.097
some open source has done a really good

00:13:06.138 --> 00:13:08.839
job of being accessible for visually

00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:09.419
impaired people.

00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:11.321
But overall,

00:13:11.400 --> 00:13:13.121
I do agree that there's a lot of

00:13:13.182 --> 00:13:15.783
work to go still in terms of having

00:13:16.585 --> 00:13:19.326
a good, smooth voice sound.

00:13:19.346 --> 00:13:20.006
Which again, yeah,

00:13:20.187 --> 00:13:21.448
considering we're competing against a

00:13:21.469 --> 00:13:24.551
company that probably built their voice

00:13:24.571 --> 00:13:26.032
synthesizer by just stealing everybody's

00:13:26.072 --> 00:13:26.852
voice all the time.

00:13:27.732 --> 00:13:29.094
I think the graphene one sounds pretty

00:13:29.114 --> 00:13:29.934
good for what it is.

00:13:30.014 --> 00:13:32.096
But definitely, I think...

00:13:32.716 --> 00:13:33.236
I've been trying to think...

00:13:33.498 --> 00:13:34.798
I would like to write some blog posts

00:13:34.818 --> 00:13:35.418
about this topic,

00:13:35.438 --> 00:13:36.279
but I'm trying to think of how to

00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:36.919
put it into words.

00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:37.341
I know like...

00:13:38.221 --> 00:13:39.663
You know, my wife, I'm very open,

00:13:39.683 --> 00:13:41.506
has like severe ADHD and that's something

00:13:41.547 --> 00:13:42.990
she struggles with is the UI.

00:13:43.049 --> 00:13:43.971
Like for someone like me,

00:13:44.010 --> 00:13:45.754
it's just kind of like, yeah, you know,

00:13:45.874 --> 00:13:47.177
it's not that pretty, but it works.

00:13:47.216 --> 00:13:48.519
But for someone like her, like that,

00:13:48.619 --> 00:13:49.780
it fails to grab her.

00:13:49.860 --> 00:13:50.241
And it's like,

00:13:50.836 --> 00:13:52.115
it's grating to use.

00:13:52.155 --> 00:13:53.897
It's like nails on a chalkboard for her

00:13:53.937 --> 00:13:55.057
because of her ADHD,

00:13:55.616 --> 00:13:56.298
or they're missing things.

00:13:56.317 --> 00:13:57.878
Like she hasn't switched a proton calendar

00:13:57.898 --> 00:14:00.438
yet because it doesn't have tasks like,

00:14:00.538 --> 00:14:01.278
like Google does.

00:14:01.298 --> 00:14:02.219
And like, she needs those,

00:14:02.239 --> 00:14:04.039
like she lives by a to-do list.

00:14:04.100 --> 00:14:06.860
And so, yeah, I think in general,

00:14:06.961 --> 00:14:08.900
open source has a lot of room for

00:14:08.921 --> 00:14:09.941
improvement on accessibility.

00:14:09.961 --> 00:14:12.101
And it's really cool to see people taking

00:14:12.121 --> 00:14:12.621
a step forward,

00:14:12.682 --> 00:14:13.923
not trying to get on anybody's case,

00:14:14.023 --> 00:14:15.082
just pointing that out.

00:14:15.123 --> 00:14:15.222
So.

00:14:16.946 --> 00:14:20.214
Yeah.

00:14:20.375 --> 00:14:21.857
If that's all we have,

00:14:21.878 --> 00:14:23.201
you have any more to add to that

00:14:23.261 --> 00:14:23.322
one?

00:14:25.253 --> 00:14:26.114
Ah, no, not really.

00:14:26.234 --> 00:14:27.494
I guess we can jump onto the next

00:14:27.575 --> 00:14:28.014
one here.

00:14:28.134 --> 00:14:31.517
So this next topic is about researchers

00:14:31.677 --> 00:14:34.479
issuing a warning about tech that could

00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:36.941
turn every router into a potential means

00:14:37.380 --> 00:14:38.662
for surveillance.

00:14:39.121 --> 00:14:42.083
So here's this article here from Gizmodo.

00:14:42.644 --> 00:14:43.085
Um,

00:14:43.125 --> 00:14:45.686
so basically researchers warned that a new

00:14:45.725 --> 00:14:47.687
method of detecting people through wifi

00:14:47.727 --> 00:14:50.408
signals poses a serious privacy risk.

00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:54.111
So basically they did a study, um,

00:14:56.104 --> 00:14:59.287
And they focused a little bit on beam

00:14:59.307 --> 00:15:01.149
forming feedback information.

00:15:01.870 --> 00:15:04.211
So I guess for people that don't know

00:15:04.251 --> 00:15:05.493
what beam forming is,

00:15:05.573 --> 00:15:09.177
basically it allows routers to direct

00:15:09.317 --> 00:15:11.779
signals towards devices more efficiently.

00:15:12.460 --> 00:15:12.941
And there's like,

00:15:13.841 --> 00:15:15.964
that's like an unencrypted connection that

00:15:16.024 --> 00:15:16.985
is made basically.

00:15:18.667 --> 00:15:23.129
And that feedback that is received by the

00:15:23.169 --> 00:15:26.030
router can be accessed.

00:15:28.793 --> 00:15:31.313
So that is kind of what this research

00:15:31.333 --> 00:15:35.677
paper is talking about here.

00:15:35.697 --> 00:15:37.618
So according to the study's press release,

00:15:37.717 --> 00:15:39.238
once a machine learning model has been

00:15:39.278 --> 00:15:39.639
trained,

00:15:39.739 --> 00:15:41.580
identifying someone takes only a few

00:15:41.620 --> 00:15:42.139
seconds.

00:15:42.659 --> 00:15:47.082
So they can identify people based on their

00:15:49.337 --> 00:15:51.561
feedback that their device basically makes

00:15:52.341 --> 00:15:55.567
to a router, which is, I guess,

00:15:55.606 --> 00:15:57.350
kind of makes sense, right?

00:15:57.370 --> 00:16:01.034
Because, you know,

00:16:02.597 --> 00:16:04.359
That would be, I mean,

00:16:04.479 --> 00:16:06.879
I think this is interesting,

00:16:06.918 --> 00:16:09.039
but I'm not sure how likely this would

00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:10.941
be in practice.

00:16:11.081 --> 00:16:13.880
But it says, during the study,

00:16:13.921 --> 00:16:15.621
researchers collected Wi-Fi signal

00:16:15.662 --> 00:16:17.121
recordings from nearly two hundred

00:16:17.162 --> 00:16:19.102
participants as they walked through a

00:16:19.143 --> 00:16:20.962
Wi-Fi field using different walking

00:16:21.023 --> 00:16:21.462
styles.

00:16:21.923 --> 00:16:23.744
The data was recorded from four different

00:16:23.783 --> 00:16:26.664
perspectives using both the BFI method and

00:16:26.784 --> 00:16:27.205
another

00:16:27.884 --> 00:16:30.386
older wi-fi sensing approach relying on

00:16:30.447 --> 00:16:33.428
channel state information basically

00:16:33.448 --> 00:16:37.131
channel state information is basically how

00:16:37.371 --> 00:16:40.134
a radio signal changes as it travels

00:16:40.153 --> 00:16:42.155
through a room that's what the article

00:16:42.196 --> 00:16:45.839
says here so the old csi method was

00:16:45.999 --> 00:16:47.860
able to identify individuals based on

00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:50.022
their normal walking style at eighty two

00:16:50.062 --> 00:16:51.442
point four percent accuracy

00:16:52.870 --> 00:16:53.291
Basically,

00:16:53.610 --> 00:16:56.212
they're saying that this technology where

00:16:56.232 --> 00:16:59.614
they can analyze the feedback from

00:16:59.754 --> 00:17:01.754
people's devices using the beamforming

00:17:02.115 --> 00:17:07.176
basically enables them to identify that

00:17:07.217 --> 00:17:08.518
device as being there.

00:17:10.798 --> 00:17:12.380
So that could be used to track your

00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:14.820
location or track where you've been,

00:17:14.881 --> 00:17:15.480
basically.

00:17:17.961 --> 00:17:19.123
I'm not really sure what the...

00:17:20.515 --> 00:17:22.496
what the fix for this would be.

00:17:22.615 --> 00:17:23.756
I guess like there would have to be

00:17:23.796 --> 00:17:25.997
an update to Wi-Fi standards to basically

00:17:26.616 --> 00:17:28.718
overhaul and replace beamforming

00:17:28.758 --> 00:17:29.938
technology completely.

00:17:30.577 --> 00:17:35.180
But I think also the other technique that

00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:37.421
they mentioned in this article is also

00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:37.840
kind of

00:17:38.780 --> 00:17:41.142
still applicable in that method as well so

00:17:41.162 --> 00:17:44.422
I don't know it's kind of it's kind

00:17:44.461 --> 00:17:45.682
of concerning but I think this is

00:17:45.722 --> 00:17:48.282
basically you know if your device is

00:17:48.323 --> 00:17:50.544
making or connecting to like any sort of

00:17:50.624 --> 00:17:53.525
radio signal it's kind of able to be

00:17:53.585 --> 00:17:55.724
tracked I think this is kind of a

00:17:55.785 --> 00:17:57.164
a normal thing that we should be

00:17:57.625 --> 00:17:59.925
acknowledging as possible like we talked

00:17:59.945 --> 00:18:01.405
about this a little bit last week or

00:18:01.425 --> 00:18:01.486
the

00:18:04.267 --> 00:18:06.248
cellular technology, for example, like,

00:18:06.327 --> 00:18:07.648
you know, that's the same thing, right?

00:18:07.669 --> 00:18:11.951
You're connecting to towers, radio towers,

00:18:11.990 --> 00:18:13.311
like cellular towers.

00:18:14.333 --> 00:18:14.952
So, you know,

00:18:14.992 --> 00:18:16.913
whenever you're making connections like

00:18:16.953 --> 00:18:17.173
that,

00:18:18.214 --> 00:18:20.395
the information can be intercepted or like

00:18:20.776 --> 00:18:21.576
tracked, right?

00:18:22.576 --> 00:18:24.979
So, I mean, I think this is

00:18:28.132 --> 00:18:29.471
I guess this is kind of obvious to

00:18:29.511 --> 00:18:30.972
me so I'm not sure if this is

00:18:31.012 --> 00:18:32.833
like it feels like it's a little bit

00:18:32.853 --> 00:18:36.894
scaremongering this article um like your

00:18:36.934 --> 00:18:38.914
device makes wi-fi signals that can be

00:18:38.954 --> 00:18:41.496
tracked like I don't know that seems kind

00:18:41.516 --> 00:18:44.797
of obvious to me but um yeah do

00:18:44.817 --> 00:18:45.896
you have any thoughts on this one Nate

00:18:45.936 --> 00:18:47.038
that you wanted to add I feel like

00:18:47.157 --> 00:18:50.739
I'm not seeing this this is that much

00:18:50.778 --> 00:18:51.778
of a concern but

00:18:52.647 --> 00:18:53.248
No, yeah.

00:18:53.268 --> 00:18:55.368
So I think one of the reasons we

00:18:55.388 --> 00:18:56.710
picked this article this week is because

00:18:56.750 --> 00:18:57.630
it did make the rounds.

00:18:57.670 --> 00:18:58.650
A lot of people were sharing it.

00:18:58.710 --> 00:19:00.290
I did see some people had very similar

00:19:00.330 --> 00:19:01.491
takes to you where it's like, yeah,

00:19:01.511 --> 00:19:03.813
this is – like is this genuine research

00:19:03.833 --> 00:19:05.353
or is this just kind of fear-mongering?

00:19:05.432 --> 00:19:06.233
And I think it's a little bit of

00:19:06.273 --> 00:19:08.734
both because like I didn't really pay much

00:19:08.755 --> 00:19:10.055
attention to this article when I first saw

00:19:10.075 --> 00:19:11.195
the headline because I'm the same as you.

00:19:11.536 --> 00:19:14.297
We covered a story exactly like this I

00:19:14.317 --> 00:19:15.817
think two or three times back at

00:19:15.836 --> 00:19:17.678
Surveillance Report when I was on there.

00:19:18.117 --> 00:19:18.598
But I think –

00:19:19.719 --> 00:19:20.460
From what I understand,

00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:22.060
this is kind of like the next evolution.

00:19:22.560 --> 00:19:22.800
You know,

00:19:23.201 --> 00:19:25.282
we talked again back on surveillance where

00:19:25.323 --> 00:19:27.104
we talked about how like at least the

00:19:27.144 --> 00:19:28.084
first time I remember seeing this,

00:19:28.104 --> 00:19:30.286
which I think somebody said in like

00:19:30.425 --> 00:19:32.027
because I found this article through Bruce

00:19:32.047 --> 00:19:34.387
Schneier and somebody in his comments were

00:19:34.407 --> 00:19:34.647
like, yeah,

00:19:34.667 --> 00:19:36.169
they've been able to do this for decades.

00:19:36.189 --> 00:19:37.509
Like there's proof of concepts going all

00:19:37.529 --> 00:19:38.351
the way back to I think he said

00:19:38.371 --> 00:19:38.951
the nineties.

00:19:40.932 --> 00:19:41.051
And

00:19:42.942 --> 00:19:44.382
I think when, again,

00:19:44.423 --> 00:19:46.182
when I first heard of a story similar

00:19:46.202 --> 00:19:47.123
to this a few years ago,

00:19:47.702 --> 00:19:49.163
it was kind of like, Whoa, that's crazy.

00:19:49.243 --> 00:19:50.243
And then we heard about it again,

00:19:50.364 --> 00:19:51.403
like a couple of years later and it's

00:19:51.423 --> 00:19:53.065
like, Oh, this again.

00:19:53.164 --> 00:19:54.025
And I think what it is is it's,

00:19:54.125 --> 00:19:55.605
it's just getting better every single

00:19:55.645 --> 00:19:56.006
time.

00:19:56.226 --> 00:19:57.665
And, um,

00:19:57.726 --> 00:19:59.027
I think that's what makes it concerning.

00:19:59.067 --> 00:20:01.207
Cause yeah, basically the idea is, uh,

00:20:01.227 --> 00:20:02.647
for those who don't know radio waves of

00:20:02.748 --> 00:20:03.907
any kind, um,

00:20:05.111 --> 00:20:06.891
when they pass through something that

00:20:06.931 --> 00:20:10.051
changes, it's like sound waves or light.

00:20:10.071 --> 00:20:11.272
If you've ever seen,

00:20:11.353 --> 00:20:13.153
like as a school experiment or you've seen

00:20:13.173 --> 00:20:15.773
the, I wanna say animation,

00:20:15.794 --> 00:20:16.574
but that's not the right word,

00:20:16.614 --> 00:20:18.314
the examples,

00:20:18.374 --> 00:20:20.375
the graphics of like light hits water and

00:20:20.394 --> 00:20:21.255
then it bends, right?

00:20:21.615 --> 00:20:23.575
Like anytime something passes through a

00:20:23.615 --> 00:20:25.336
medium, it's going to change.

00:20:26.351 --> 00:20:27.211
ask me how I know this is a

00:20:27.251 --> 00:20:28.532
sound guy who works with wireless

00:20:28.553 --> 00:20:28.853
equipment.

00:20:28.932 --> 00:20:29.073
Um,

00:20:29.653 --> 00:20:30.914
one of the most annoying things people can

00:20:30.954 --> 00:20:32.715
do that they still do.

00:20:32.756 --> 00:20:33.896
And I get it is in a big

00:20:33.936 --> 00:20:34.237
room,

00:20:34.277 --> 00:20:35.377
they'll take their little wireless

00:20:35.417 --> 00:20:36.979
microphone pack that like clips on here

00:20:37.338 --> 00:20:38.539
and they'll stick it behind them.

00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:39.500
And it's just like, cool.

00:20:39.520 --> 00:20:41.041
So now the antenna has to pass through

00:20:41.102 --> 00:20:41.762
your body,

00:20:42.282 --> 00:20:44.285
which is a giant bag of salt from

00:20:44.404 --> 00:20:45.385
an RF perspective.

00:20:45.465 --> 00:20:47.307
And you've just dampened my signal signal

00:20:47.326 --> 00:20:48.428
significantly because of that.

00:20:49.048 --> 00:20:50.148
And, um,

00:20:50.169 --> 00:20:51.250
so it's the same thing with wifi.

00:20:51.289 --> 00:20:52.330
It's the same, it's a radio wave.

00:20:52.351 --> 00:20:52.971
It's the same thing.

00:20:53.112 --> 00:20:54.952
And as it passes through a person or

00:20:55.053 --> 00:20:56.233
drywall or, uh,

00:20:56.913 --> 00:20:59.276
a couch or a cat or whatever it

00:20:59.296 --> 00:21:01.416
changes how the signal moves and so

00:21:01.457 --> 00:21:02.778
basically they're just getting better and

00:21:02.817 --> 00:21:04.898
better at detecting those changes to the

00:21:04.919 --> 00:21:06.420
point where now not only can they say

00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.001
like oh there's a couch and a cat

00:21:09.041 --> 00:21:10.583
sleeping on it and someone in the room

00:21:10.883 --> 00:21:12.824
they can be like i know who's in

00:21:12.844 --> 00:21:14.644
that room and which cat is in that

00:21:14.684 --> 00:21:16.326
room and i i think that's

00:21:17.366 --> 00:21:18.268
A little bit scary.

00:21:19.428 --> 00:21:20.628
But that said, you're right.

00:21:20.648 --> 00:21:22.470
Like the researchers did say that they

00:21:22.569 --> 00:21:24.049
have not seen any evidence of this being

00:21:24.131 --> 00:21:24.990
used in the wild.

00:21:26.030 --> 00:21:27.392
The article really didn't give a lot of

00:21:27.412 --> 00:21:27.791
detail.

00:21:27.811 --> 00:21:31.193
They just said that researchers are urging

00:21:31.233 --> 00:21:33.474
the I, I think they call that IEEE,

00:21:33.855 --> 00:21:35.096
the organization that sets industry

00:21:35.115 --> 00:21:36.696
standards to include stronger privacy

00:21:36.737 --> 00:21:38.317
safeguards in the upcoming eight or two

00:21:38.357 --> 00:21:39.478
dot eleven BF standard,

00:21:39.817 --> 00:21:40.959
which is meant to standardize Wi-Fi

00:21:40.979 --> 00:21:41.739
sensing applications.

00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:42.940
So they didn't really go into detail,

00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.040
but it sounds like there are

00:21:45.040 --> 00:21:46.864
some changes that could be made to,

00:21:47.084 --> 00:21:48.605
to at very least mitigate this.

00:21:49.708 --> 00:21:50.788
And hopefully those will get made,

00:21:50.868 --> 00:21:52.451
but yeah, I think it's,

00:21:52.530 --> 00:21:54.693
it's I don't know.

00:21:54.994 --> 00:21:56.676
I find research like this really

00:21:56.757 --> 00:21:57.999
interesting because it's, it's kind of a,

00:22:00.147 --> 00:22:01.088
it's like a balance, right?

00:22:01.108 --> 00:22:02.130
Because I think this is the kind of

00:22:02.150 --> 00:22:03.631
stuff that if we're not careful,

00:22:03.730 --> 00:22:04.932
this can turn into paranoia.

00:22:05.031 --> 00:22:06.933
Like your wifi signals can track you and

00:22:07.374 --> 00:22:08.115
this could track you.

00:22:08.154 --> 00:22:08.855
And hypothetically,

00:22:08.875 --> 00:22:10.497
we're gonna talk a little bit later about

00:22:10.576 --> 00:22:12.959
a story where like your hard drive could

00:22:12.979 --> 00:22:13.779
be used to track you.

00:22:13.819 --> 00:22:15.260
Like there's so many ways to track you,

00:22:15.942 --> 00:22:18.202
But it's also a question of, like,

00:22:18.784 --> 00:22:19.763
is this actually happening?

00:22:19.825 --> 00:22:20.845
We have no evidence that this is

00:22:20.884 --> 00:22:21.305
happening.

00:22:22.365 --> 00:22:23.846
The article didn't really specify, like,

00:22:23.866 --> 00:22:24.827
do you have to be local?

00:22:24.928 --> 00:22:25.087
Like,

00:22:25.347 --> 00:22:26.449
they mentioned that beamforming is

00:22:26.528 --> 00:22:27.048
unencrypted.

00:22:27.108 --> 00:22:27.630
So, okay,

00:22:27.670 --> 00:22:29.451
does that mean you have to be my

00:22:29.471 --> 00:22:30.991
next-door neighbor who's hacked into my

00:22:31.031 --> 00:22:32.251
Wi-Fi and you're doing this?

00:22:32.393 --> 00:22:33.593
Or does that mean that, like,

00:22:34.054 --> 00:22:35.694
my ISP on the other end of the

00:22:35.714 --> 00:22:36.974
connection could be doing this?

00:22:37.435 --> 00:22:38.676
It's not really clear, but...

00:22:40.291 --> 00:22:40.412
Yeah,

00:22:40.451 --> 00:22:42.093
I think it's just I think I like

00:22:42.113 --> 00:22:43.535
covering stories like this just to kind of

00:22:44.355 --> 00:22:45.737
make sure people are aware, I guess.

00:22:46.396 --> 00:22:47.698
I don't know if it's a huge threat,

00:22:47.738 --> 00:22:49.700
but it's definitely interesting to know

00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.041
that these kinds of things are possible

00:22:52.061 --> 00:22:53.502
and hopefully fix them before they do

00:22:53.544 --> 00:22:55.065
become widespread,

00:22:55.826 --> 00:22:59.308
commonly abused tactics.

00:22:59.328 --> 00:23:00.930
I think one interesting thing that you

00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:02.571
brought up there was like, you know.

00:23:04.445 --> 00:23:05.487
the radio wave stuff.

00:23:05.527 --> 00:23:06.866
Like I feel like we almost might have

00:23:06.886 --> 00:23:09.067
seen this before, right?

00:23:09.087 --> 00:23:12.029
Like we saw lots of stores implementing

00:23:12.109 --> 00:23:14.951
Bluetooth beacons to sense like Bluetooth

00:23:15.010 --> 00:23:15.631
is the same thing.

00:23:15.671 --> 00:23:16.632
It's a radio, right?

00:23:16.652 --> 00:23:18.571
Like it's radio waves.

00:23:18.672 --> 00:23:21.113
So like, you know,

00:23:21.233 --> 00:23:22.933
I can imagine that this would be used

00:23:22.973 --> 00:23:26.036
by stores to track customers or to track

00:23:26.836 --> 00:23:28.277
activity within a store, right?

00:23:28.317 --> 00:23:31.057
This could be used for something like that

00:23:31.097 --> 00:23:31.518
too, right?

00:23:32.744 --> 00:23:34.506
I don't think so because the Bluetooth

00:23:34.526 --> 00:23:36.488
thing is based on someone correct me if

00:23:36.508 --> 00:23:37.729
I'm wrong, but as I understand it,

00:23:38.148 --> 00:23:39.809
the Bluetooth thing is based on the idea

00:23:39.849 --> 00:23:41.090
that like your phone.

00:23:41.111 --> 00:23:41.791
So most people.

00:23:42.768 --> 00:23:43.948
myself included, I hate to admit,

00:23:44.848 --> 00:23:45.749
when I go into a store,

00:23:46.429 --> 00:23:48.170
I have my, this is a pine time,

00:23:48.190 --> 00:23:49.289
but I have my watch and I have

00:23:49.309 --> 00:23:50.309
Bluetooth turned on,

00:23:50.730 --> 00:23:51.611
connected to my phone,

00:23:51.971 --> 00:23:53.651
mostly because sometimes I won't hear it

00:23:54.371 --> 00:23:54.671
ring.

00:23:55.771 --> 00:23:57.071
Like sometimes I have my headphones in and

00:23:57.092 --> 00:23:58.272
I'll listen to podcasts while I go,

00:23:58.333 --> 00:23:59.113
sometimes I won't.

00:23:59.673 --> 00:24:01.653
And if I don't have my headphones in

00:24:01.673 --> 00:24:03.693
and my wife texts me like, oh, hey,

00:24:03.713 --> 00:24:04.773
I just remembered to grab milk or

00:24:04.794 --> 00:24:06.575
whatever, I won't hear my phone.

00:24:06.654 --> 00:24:08.255
But then if my watch buzzes and I

00:24:08.275 --> 00:24:09.836
look down and it says new signal message,

00:24:10.336 --> 00:24:11.596
Um, but anyways,

00:24:11.636 --> 00:24:12.477
the reason I bring that up is,

00:24:12.497 --> 00:24:13.597
you know, I've got my phone connected.

00:24:13.617 --> 00:24:14.479
And so my phone is,

00:24:15.038 --> 00:24:16.519
and my watch both are broadcasting

00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:19.461
Bluetooth signals and, um,

00:24:19.501 --> 00:24:20.542
stores will like,

00:24:20.623 --> 00:24:22.203
every time you go into the store,

00:24:23.625 --> 00:24:24.625
I think they,

00:24:24.704 --> 00:24:27.027
they basically record your device and

00:24:27.047 --> 00:24:27.287
they,

00:24:27.307 --> 00:24:28.867
they track it as you walk around because

00:24:28.887 --> 00:24:29.587
it's broadcasting.

00:24:29.607 --> 00:24:31.068
It's not really so much like the RF,

00:24:31.108 --> 00:24:33.830
like physically tracking you.

00:24:33.931 --> 00:24:35.352
It's that they recognize your device.

00:24:35.412 --> 00:24:36.452
It's like a type of fingerprint,

00:24:36.472 --> 00:24:37.594
which I think is why, um,

00:24:38.487 --> 00:24:40.688
a lot of like apple and android both

00:24:40.768 --> 00:24:42.528
i think or maybe it's just like graphene

00:24:42.548 --> 00:24:44.648
does it but i know like apple will

00:24:44.709 --> 00:24:46.890
randomize i think they randomize the mac

00:24:47.009 --> 00:24:48.131
bluetooth address i know they do it with

00:24:48.171 --> 00:24:50.491
wi-fi but um they're they're basically

00:24:50.531 --> 00:24:51.692
trying to fight that a little bit so

00:24:51.731 --> 00:24:53.333
that way you don't have the same bluetooth

00:24:53.373 --> 00:24:54.932
address every time you walk into the store

00:24:54.952 --> 00:24:56.334
and they can't track you as easily but

00:24:56.433 --> 00:24:58.674
i think that's the i think that's how

00:24:58.694 --> 00:25:04.096
the bluetooth thing works um uh so okay

00:25:05.748 --> 00:25:07.288
terracotta has an interesting point here i

00:25:07.308 --> 00:25:08.451
feel like at this point scientists should

00:25:08.471 --> 00:25:09.551
hold back from any research that's

00:25:09.592 --> 00:25:11.353
potentially harmful to privacy i don't

00:25:11.373 --> 00:25:12.855
know i appreciate this research in the

00:25:12.894 --> 00:25:14.076
sense that they're like trying to get it

00:25:14.135 --> 00:25:15.517
fixed you know like i said at the

00:25:15.596 --> 00:25:17.679
end they're they're trying to get the ieee

00:25:17.699 --> 00:25:21.102
to fix it and it goes both ways

00:25:21.162 --> 00:25:23.625
right because there's um like i don't

00:25:25.105 --> 00:25:26.166
I do and I don't agree with you

00:25:26.186 --> 00:25:27.887
because, yeah, on the one hand,

00:25:27.928 --> 00:25:28.387
it could be,

00:25:28.468 --> 00:25:29.628
it's almost like a disclosure, right?

00:25:29.669 --> 00:25:31.250
Like when you publish a vulnerability,

00:25:31.730 --> 00:25:32.951
now all the cyber criminals are going to

00:25:33.030 --> 00:25:33.310
use it.

00:25:33.431 --> 00:25:35.992
But also like if we publish it,

00:25:36.032 --> 00:25:37.693
then maybe people will know it's out there

00:25:37.814 --> 00:25:38.894
and we could like try to get it

00:25:38.934 --> 00:25:39.355
fixed.

00:25:39.815 --> 00:25:40.496
So I don't know.

00:25:40.516 --> 00:25:42.836
I feel like that's a,

00:25:42.856 --> 00:25:44.617
that one has pros and cons that go

00:25:44.657 --> 00:25:45.699
both ways in my opinion.

00:25:47.067 --> 00:25:48.809
I think also it kind of sucks.

00:25:48.869 --> 00:25:52.034
I feel like the Wi-Fi ecosystem is...

00:25:52.054 --> 00:25:54.037
They said that they might introduce a fix

00:25:54.096 --> 00:25:57.140
in Wi-Fi BF or whatever that...

00:25:57.260 --> 00:25:58.521
I think Wi-Fi eight or...

00:26:02.651 --> 00:26:03.570
Yeah.

00:26:03.631 --> 00:26:05.592
So I feel like that's another issue with

00:26:05.632 --> 00:26:07.272
Wi-Fi is like some people I know,

00:26:07.313 --> 00:26:09.574
they're still using like eight or two to

00:26:09.594 --> 00:26:12.775
eleven B or like some like ancient like

00:26:12.835 --> 00:26:15.695
Wi-Fi access points and stuff like that.

00:26:15.736 --> 00:26:17.196
So it's like, you know,

00:26:17.777 --> 00:26:20.317
I think it's probably not going to be

00:26:20.357 --> 00:26:22.480
something that's going to be fixed very

00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:24.119
quickly because I feel like most people

00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:25.921
that are using Wi-Fi six,

00:26:26.260 --> 00:26:28.682
even Wi-Fi six or Wi-Fi seven or Wi-Fi

00:26:28.722 --> 00:26:31.124
six E they're like on the cutting edge.

00:26:31.384 --> 00:26:32.744
I feel like most people still haven't

00:26:32.904 --> 00:26:35.486
upgraded because there's not really that

00:26:35.506 --> 00:26:36.186
much of a need.

00:26:36.926 --> 00:26:38.167
I guess maybe if you live in a

00:26:38.228 --> 00:26:39.647
country where there's actually fast

00:26:39.728 --> 00:26:44.090
internet, maybe, but I don't know.

00:26:45.281 --> 00:26:46.083
That's another problem.

00:26:46.682 --> 00:26:46.903
No,

00:26:47.002 --> 00:26:48.324
I totally agree because I'm in the same

00:26:48.344 --> 00:26:48.523
boat.

00:26:48.564 --> 00:26:51.306
I've had my same router for, God, like,

00:26:51.346 --> 00:26:52.346
ten years now, I think,

00:26:52.586 --> 00:26:53.367
or close to it.

00:26:53.508 --> 00:26:55.429
And, yeah, like, why would I upgrade?

00:26:55.449 --> 00:26:56.529
Like, the speeds are fine.

00:26:56.609 --> 00:26:57.349
You know, maybe – I mean,

00:26:57.750 --> 00:26:58.911
maybe I need to upgrade to a better

00:26:58.971 --> 00:27:01.292
plan for my ISP, but the router works.

00:27:01.353 --> 00:27:03.074
It covers the whole home.

00:27:03.575 --> 00:27:04.515
If I got a bigger home,

00:27:04.555 --> 00:27:06.836
then I could just, like – you know,

00:27:06.896 --> 00:27:08.117
most people would resort to, like,

00:27:08.617 --> 00:27:09.378
repeaters or, like,

00:27:09.398 --> 00:27:11.079
a mesh network at that point instead of

00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:12.381
just, like, buying a bigger router.

00:27:12.461 --> 00:27:12.941
So –

00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:13.690
Yeah,

00:27:14.830 --> 00:27:15.830
I feel like routers are one of those

00:27:15.851 --> 00:27:17.070
things that you kind of only replace when

00:27:17.090 --> 00:27:18.291
they like break break.

00:27:18.832 --> 00:27:21.232
So I don't know if that's necessarily good

00:27:21.272 --> 00:27:22.993
or bad, but I agree with you.

00:27:23.273 --> 00:27:24.153
I think it's something that a lot of

00:27:24.173 --> 00:27:25.835
people just don't replace very often.

00:27:25.875 --> 00:27:28.576
And so if you have an old router

00:27:28.596 --> 00:27:30.537
that is not compatible with this new BF

00:27:30.576 --> 00:27:30.997
standard,

00:27:31.037 --> 00:27:33.698
then you might be vulnerable to this for

00:27:33.718 --> 00:27:34.097
a while.

00:27:34.178 --> 00:27:34.557
But again,

00:27:34.617 --> 00:27:37.159
I hate when the articles don't mention

00:27:37.179 --> 00:27:38.839
like how possible is this?

00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:40.340
Again, is this something that like,

00:27:41.546 --> 00:27:45.067
I need the KGB agent surveilling me next

00:27:45.127 --> 00:27:47.048
door in secret,

00:27:47.169 --> 00:27:48.328
or is this something that can be done

00:27:48.388 --> 00:27:48.869
remotely?

00:27:49.029 --> 00:27:49.289
I don't know.

00:27:49.470 --> 00:27:50.309
I'm going to read the paper.

00:27:50.329 --> 00:27:51.171
I'm going to see if I can find

00:27:51.230 --> 00:27:52.711
out.

00:27:52.790 --> 00:27:53.332
I mean, I don't know.

00:27:53.491 --> 00:27:57.374
I was convinced that you don't actually

00:27:57.394 --> 00:28:00.535
have to connect to a Wi-Fi network to

00:28:00.595 --> 00:28:02.455
actually cause it to...

00:28:05.013 --> 00:28:06.454
to be able to sense someone, right?

00:28:06.494 --> 00:28:08.477
I think it's just walking within a Wi-Fi

00:28:08.497 --> 00:28:09.778
connection, I believe.

00:28:10.077 --> 00:28:13.760
But definitely double check that because I

00:28:13.800 --> 00:28:14.622
didn't read the paper.

00:28:15.403 --> 00:28:15.663
Right.

00:28:15.682 --> 00:28:18.704
But I think the thing is that somebody

00:28:18.744 --> 00:28:19.506
has to be listening.

00:28:20.006 --> 00:28:21.307
It's a tree falls in the forest kind

00:28:21.327 --> 00:28:22.268
of situation, right?

00:28:22.387 --> 00:28:24.069
Any beamforming network is capable of

00:28:24.089 --> 00:28:24.289
this,

00:28:24.329 --> 00:28:26.051
but somebody has to be listening for it

00:28:26.132 --> 00:28:27.432
in order for it to work, I think.

00:28:28.252 --> 00:28:29.314
At least that's how I read it.

00:28:29.334 --> 00:28:31.476
I don't know.

00:28:31.796 --> 00:28:32.057
Yeah, exactly.

00:28:32.076 --> 00:28:32.436
Yeah.

00:28:34.789 --> 00:28:36.491
I might keep that tab open and read

00:28:36.511 --> 00:28:36.811
it later.

00:28:38.673 --> 00:28:39.075
Cool.

00:28:39.474 --> 00:28:39.935
Sounds good.

00:28:40.916 --> 00:28:41.978
I guess, I mean,

00:28:41.999 --> 00:28:43.380
that's everything I had to add on that.

00:28:43.420 --> 00:28:44.582
Do you have anything more that you thought

00:28:44.602 --> 00:28:45.603
we should cover on that one?

00:28:47.219 --> 00:28:48.278
I don't think so.

00:28:48.419 --> 00:28:49.880
So on that note,

00:28:50.140 --> 00:28:52.420
I think it is time to move on

00:28:52.460 --> 00:28:54.000
to site updates.

00:28:56.280 --> 00:28:57.681
We will be talking in a little bit

00:28:57.780 --> 00:28:59.501
about some new developments from FDroid

00:28:59.561 --> 00:29:01.402
and Tor about funding and digital freedom,

00:29:01.461 --> 00:29:02.721
some really exciting stuff there.

00:29:03.363 --> 00:29:04.623
But first, yeah,

00:29:04.643 --> 00:29:05.942
let's talk about what we've been working

00:29:06.022 --> 00:29:06.603
on this week.

00:29:06.682 --> 00:29:09.624
So it's another one of those weeks where

00:29:09.644 --> 00:29:11.023
we've been doing stuff behind the scenes.

00:29:11.084 --> 00:29:13.444
I know it hasn't been a super big...

00:29:14.707 --> 00:29:16.028
publicly forward-facing,

00:29:16.127 --> 00:29:18.409
but we have a new video coming up

00:29:18.548 --> 00:29:20.288
that I think should be ready pretty soon,

00:29:20.509 --> 00:29:22.549
diving into NIST's updated password

00:29:22.569 --> 00:29:22.869
advice.

00:29:22.910 --> 00:29:24.550
So historically, you know,

00:29:24.570 --> 00:29:25.872
the password advice has always been...

00:29:27.010 --> 00:29:29.372
you know, long password, uppercase,

00:29:29.432 --> 00:29:31.313
lowercase, letters, random,

00:29:31.393 --> 00:29:32.272
all that fun stuff.

00:29:32.292 --> 00:29:34.114
But now a lot of people know that

00:29:34.954 --> 00:29:39.497
NIST's new guideline is that your

00:29:39.537 --> 00:29:40.096
password,

00:29:40.196 --> 00:29:41.416
you should focus more on length and

00:29:41.457 --> 00:29:42.778
complexity doesn't matter so much.

00:29:42.837 --> 00:29:45.558
So we put out a video explaining,

00:29:45.618 --> 00:29:46.038
first of all,

00:29:46.078 --> 00:29:47.779
like where did this complexity advice come

00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:48.119
from?

00:29:48.220 --> 00:29:49.181
How does it even work?

00:29:49.820 --> 00:29:51.142
And then on top of it,

00:29:51.241 --> 00:29:52.982
we talked about the new advice.

00:29:53.163 --> 00:29:53.564
And like,

00:29:53.604 --> 00:29:54.845
how does it relate to the old device?

00:29:55.265 --> 00:29:56.326
How is it better?

00:29:56.625 --> 00:29:57.286
Is it better?

00:29:57.987 --> 00:29:59.688
So yeah, I'm excited for that one.

00:30:01.028 --> 00:30:02.049
I have not seen the edit yet.

00:30:02.130 --> 00:30:03.590
I know Jordan's been working hard on that.

00:30:03.651 --> 00:30:03.810
But

00:30:05.064 --> 00:30:05.805
I'm proud of the script.

00:30:05.865 --> 00:30:06.806
I think we did a good one there.

00:30:08.107 --> 00:30:08.888
And then after that,

00:30:09.108 --> 00:30:10.851
I am in the middle of working on

00:30:11.270 --> 00:30:14.634
a new tutorial tackling the recent Plex

00:30:14.694 --> 00:30:15.435
price change.

00:30:15.816 --> 00:30:17.678
And I think you guys will like that

00:30:17.778 --> 00:30:17.878
one.

00:30:21.001 --> 00:30:22.863
yeah um there's so many different

00:30:22.883 --> 00:30:24.483
directions you can go one thing i like

00:30:24.503 --> 00:30:25.784
about this job is that i have a

00:30:25.844 --> 00:30:27.825
lot of creative freedom um but sometimes

00:30:27.845 --> 00:30:28.746
that makes it hard for me to know

00:30:28.766 --> 00:30:30.665
the best path to take so uh but

00:30:30.685 --> 00:30:31.946
that one's coming along i think it should

00:30:31.967 --> 00:30:33.407
be ready to send to jordan here in

00:30:33.428 --> 00:30:35.449
the next few days so that's kind of

00:30:36.189 --> 00:30:37.349
everything that's been going on in the

00:30:37.369 --> 00:30:38.150
video side

00:30:39.855 --> 00:30:40.494
Cool.

00:30:40.515 --> 00:30:45.355
I'm excited to see how the Plex video

00:30:45.395 --> 00:30:45.875
turns out.

00:30:45.935 --> 00:30:47.457
I'm kind of interested to hear thoughts,

00:30:47.537 --> 00:30:47.817
actually,

00:30:47.836 --> 00:30:49.717
because maybe we can dive into that a

00:30:49.737 --> 00:30:50.136
bit later,

00:30:50.156 --> 00:30:51.258
because I think that would be an

00:30:51.298 --> 00:30:52.617
interesting topic to talk about.

00:30:54.498 --> 00:30:55.618
But yeah,

00:30:55.739 --> 00:30:57.538
just to keep things on track here,

00:30:58.558 --> 00:30:59.980
I guess I can dive into some of

00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:01.099
the site updates this week.

00:31:01.940 --> 00:31:03.819
I've kind of been following a lot of

00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:05.621
this stuff, but just for...

00:31:07.020 --> 00:31:07.501
Clarity,

00:31:07.541 --> 00:31:10.723
this has all been Jonah's work here.

00:31:11.484 --> 00:31:11.944
Basically,

00:31:11.984 --> 00:31:18.650
there's been a new project that we're

00:31:18.670 --> 00:31:19.750
working on at the moment,

00:31:19.891 --> 00:31:23.854
and that is a Android app verifier

00:31:23.913 --> 00:31:25.295
database.

00:31:25.394 --> 00:31:29.798
If you've been following along and you're

00:31:31.659 --> 00:31:33.941
quite into the custom Android space,

00:31:34.040 --> 00:31:34.781
you'll know that

00:31:35.987 --> 00:31:38.492
A lot of times it can feel like

00:31:38.933 --> 00:31:41.520
downloading apps off GitHub and other

00:31:41.881 --> 00:31:42.643
places like that.

00:31:42.663 --> 00:31:43.705
It's hard to know if

00:31:44.204 --> 00:31:45.886
app is safe or if it actually does

00:31:45.926 --> 00:31:47.528
come from the developer itself or if

00:31:47.548 --> 00:31:50.990
you're downloading the right thing and

00:31:51.171 --> 00:31:53.173
originally the way to kind of check that

00:31:53.232 --> 00:31:56.256
was if the developer offered a app

00:31:56.296 --> 00:31:59.259
certificate hash which you could compare

00:31:59.838 --> 00:32:01.861
to the one that you download so to

00:32:01.881 --> 00:32:03.301
basically verify that the app you

00:32:03.321 --> 00:32:05.724
downloaded is the one that the developer

00:32:06.164 --> 00:32:08.846
actually created so that was

00:32:10.338 --> 00:32:12.900
kind of only limited to very specific

00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.520
developers who actually made that

00:32:14.580 --> 00:32:15.540
information public,

00:32:17.422 --> 00:32:18.962
which was kind of frustrating, right?

00:32:18.982 --> 00:32:20.284
Because there'd be a bunch of apps that

00:32:20.304 --> 00:32:24.486
you're not sure if their authenticity is

00:32:24.586 --> 00:32:26.406
actually verified or not.

00:32:26.507 --> 00:32:28.907
So we're kind of working on,

00:32:29.508 --> 00:32:30.208
and when I say we,

00:32:30.288 --> 00:32:31.608
I mean mostly Jonah,

00:32:31.949 --> 00:32:35.270
but there's this GitHub repository that

00:32:35.290 --> 00:32:36.750
we've basically opened up to the

00:32:36.790 --> 00:32:37.231
community,

00:32:37.271 --> 00:32:37.471
which

00:32:38.896 --> 00:32:44.580
allows people to submit their app

00:32:44.621 --> 00:32:45.560
certificate hashes.

00:32:45.820 --> 00:32:48.702
And it basically, through GitHub Actions,

00:32:48.782 --> 00:32:51.505
it'll verify whether someone's submission

00:32:51.664 --> 00:32:55.287
is associated with currently known

00:32:55.928 --> 00:32:57.429
applications, like on FDroid,

00:32:57.489 --> 00:33:01.351
on Google Play, or a direct GitHub link.

00:33:02.112 --> 00:33:05.594
And that basically gets processed by

00:33:05.693 --> 00:33:06.894
someone on the team and

00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:09.800
added to this database.

00:33:10.521 --> 00:33:11.001
Basically,

00:33:11.221 --> 00:33:13.304
the goal is to have a database of

00:33:13.964 --> 00:33:16.346
apps that have app certificate hashes to

00:33:16.926 --> 00:33:19.588
basically make sure that you are actually

00:33:19.648 --> 00:33:22.551
running the apps that the developers have

00:33:22.612 --> 00:33:24.133
actually created.

00:33:24.292 --> 00:33:26.115
It's to avoid inauthentic apps.

00:33:27.295 --> 00:33:29.636
I think this is actually a lot more

00:33:29.676 --> 00:33:31.257
important when we talk about custom

00:33:31.376 --> 00:33:31.798
Android.

00:33:31.837 --> 00:33:33.479
I think this is less important if you're

00:33:33.499 --> 00:33:34.858
just downloading everything from the

00:33:34.898 --> 00:33:37.760
Google Play Store because it's a trusted

00:33:37.800 --> 00:33:38.941
place to download apps.

00:33:39.521 --> 00:33:40.001
Trusted,

00:33:40.082 --> 00:33:41.903
I say in very large quotation marks

00:33:41.942 --> 00:33:44.304
because it's often filled with malware and

00:33:44.344 --> 00:33:45.105
all that stuff.

00:33:45.144 --> 00:33:48.405
But you at least know that if you

00:33:48.445 --> 00:33:52.387
click on something and download it,

00:33:52.428 --> 00:33:53.568
it's definitely going to be from the

00:33:53.669 --> 00:33:54.509
actual developer.

00:33:55.615 --> 00:33:57.455
Although, you know, asterisks, as usual,

00:33:57.476 --> 00:34:00.037
there's apps that are trying to bypass

00:34:00.057 --> 00:34:00.856
that and all that.

00:34:01.616 --> 00:34:03.538
But it's a lot safer to do things

00:34:03.557 --> 00:34:04.398
through Google Play.

00:34:04.878 --> 00:34:06.338
But obviously,

00:34:06.398 --> 00:34:08.019
there's the issue with Google Play is it's

00:34:08.059 --> 00:34:10.141
not very privacy respecting because you

00:34:10.181 --> 00:34:12.161
have to have a Google account,

00:34:12.262 --> 00:34:14.702
download apps from there.

00:34:14.742 --> 00:34:15.382
And a lot of apps...

00:34:17.047 --> 00:34:18.672
don't meet the requirements for the Google

00:34:18.692 --> 00:34:19.193
Play Store.

00:34:19.233 --> 00:34:21.597
So basically,

00:34:22.681 --> 00:34:24.704
I hope I've kind of summarized things well

00:34:24.726 --> 00:34:25.206
enough here,

00:34:25.266 --> 00:34:25.447
but

00:34:26.527 --> 00:34:27.166
There is also,

00:34:27.987 --> 00:34:29.949
this is all like pre-production stuff.

00:34:30.009 --> 00:34:32.090
So I wouldn't go out and use this

00:34:32.411 --> 00:34:32.871
right now.

00:34:32.951 --> 00:34:34.612
I think it's good to get people from

00:34:34.632 --> 00:34:36.132
the community to contribute to this

00:34:36.172 --> 00:34:40.476
project because I think it's good to have

00:34:40.516 --> 00:34:41.237
this resource.

00:34:42.197 --> 00:34:43.737
Jonah also just recently,

00:34:43.797 --> 00:34:46.960
he put together a, basically a website,

00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:50.402
which you can like search and check to

00:34:50.463 --> 00:34:52.804
see if, you know,

00:34:54.025 --> 00:34:55.505
if the apps that you've downloaded,

00:34:55.706 --> 00:34:57.027
you can compare the hashes.

00:34:57.847 --> 00:34:58.949
So if you want to check that out,

00:34:59.148 --> 00:35:00.730
I've just put it in the chat here.

00:35:01.831 --> 00:35:08.456
But it's definitely an interesting new

00:35:08.496 --> 00:35:09.516
project that we're working on.

00:35:09.536 --> 00:35:10.878
So definitely keep an eye on that.

00:35:11.898 --> 00:35:13.820
I think it's also

00:35:16.414 --> 00:35:18.215
project that we want to keep working on

00:35:18.355 --> 00:35:20.775
at this at this point though uh you

00:35:20.795 --> 00:35:22.077
know we're still kind of early in the

00:35:22.117 --> 00:35:24.438
process of developing it and there was

00:35:24.478 --> 00:35:26.619
someone that was working on an app

00:35:26.679 --> 00:35:29.239
verifier app which would basically allow

00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:31.820
you to check your installed apps and uh

00:35:32.581 --> 00:35:36.202
check to see whether the hashes match our

00:35:36.242 --> 00:35:39.023
database um so you know it's

00:35:41.061 --> 00:35:41.400
It's...

00:35:42.483 --> 00:35:44.244
that was an unofficial project by someone

00:35:44.264 --> 00:35:45.485
else and at this point we don't have

00:35:45.565 --> 00:35:48.849
any plans on maintaining any Android app.

00:35:49.554 --> 00:35:52.056
like that so we can't really promise

00:35:52.096 --> 00:35:54.577
anything on that aspect it would be nice

00:35:54.818 --> 00:35:57.280
I personally would like that but I think

00:35:57.340 --> 00:35:58.740
it also is a lot more effort on

00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:01.001
our end and we're already like quite a

00:36:01.021 --> 00:36:02.702
small team and we're just trying to

00:36:02.903 --> 00:36:04.644
provide the best resources for people and

00:36:04.684 --> 00:36:07.246
I think even if this is uh done

00:36:07.266 --> 00:36:08.648
through a website at this point I think

00:36:08.668 --> 00:36:14.030
it's still very useful and very uh uh

00:36:14.130 --> 00:36:14.431
very

00:36:16.228 --> 00:36:18.610
good you know community project that we

00:36:18.652 --> 00:36:20.833
can all contribute to I personally already

00:36:20.873 --> 00:36:22.916
contributed a couple apps it's really easy

00:36:22.936 --> 00:36:24.677
to do that if you just download the

00:36:24.797 --> 00:36:26.519
app verifier app you can get that on

00:36:26.579 --> 00:36:29.342
a crescent or you can download that on

00:36:29.382 --> 00:36:32.865
github you can basically get the hashes of

00:36:32.885 --> 00:36:36.289
your apps and submit a an issue which

00:36:36.329 --> 00:36:37.431
will you know

00:36:38.422 --> 00:36:40.043
line it up to be added to the

00:36:40.063 --> 00:36:40.603
database.

00:36:41.143 --> 00:36:43.126
I would definitely recommend checking that

00:36:43.186 --> 00:36:44.867
out if you're interested in contributing.

00:36:44.967 --> 00:36:46.929
We've already had so many submissions from

00:36:47.009 --> 00:36:47.849
people in our community.

00:36:47.869 --> 00:36:49.351
So thank you so much to anyone who's

00:36:49.391 --> 00:36:51.052
been contributing on that.

00:36:51.313 --> 00:36:53.434
It's been really awesome to see just how

00:36:53.474 --> 00:36:55.777
enthusiastic people are about this new

00:36:56.396 --> 00:36:56.737
project.

00:36:57.903 --> 00:36:59.666
And like, I mean, enthusiastic.

00:36:59.686 --> 00:37:02.032
Like we've had like probably over three

00:37:02.072 --> 00:37:02.512
hundred.

00:37:02.972 --> 00:37:03.994
Let's over four hundred.

00:37:04.034 --> 00:37:04.956
Yeah.

00:37:04.976 --> 00:37:06.139
Between open and closed.

00:37:06.179 --> 00:37:07.722
We've closed three hundred and nine,

00:37:07.782 --> 00:37:09.085
but there's one hundred and two still

00:37:09.164 --> 00:37:09.405
open.

00:37:09.726 --> 00:37:10.266
They need review.

00:37:11.606 --> 00:37:14.809
yeah so that is really awesome uh and

00:37:14.829 --> 00:37:16.431
that's only you know that's only popular

00:37:16.512 --> 00:37:18.094
apps so if you've got apps that are

00:37:18.735 --> 00:37:20.436
less popular i think that could be a

00:37:20.476 --> 00:37:23.760
good addition to the database as well um

00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:25.382
but yeah i'm just really excited for that

00:37:25.422 --> 00:37:28.364
project i think that was a really uh

00:37:28.405 --> 00:37:31.748
really awesome idea so uh what else have

00:37:31.768 --> 00:37:32.369
we got here so

00:37:33.670 --> 00:37:36.311
there is a lot of information there kind

00:37:36.351 --> 00:37:39.074
of i just info dumped super hard so

00:37:39.094 --> 00:37:41.516
definitely just check out on the forum on

00:37:41.556 --> 00:37:43.918
discuss.privacyguides.net definitely check

00:37:43.938 --> 00:37:47.820
that out um there was also some uh

00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:50.842
news as usual we have news stories that

00:37:51.103 --> 00:37:54.065
freya and uh nate usually work on so

00:37:54.126 --> 00:37:55.726
if you check out privacy this week

00:37:57.275 --> 00:37:58.195
Ah, all free this week.

00:37:58.916 --> 00:38:00.717
But yeah, sometimes Nate, if he has time,

00:38:00.757 --> 00:38:02.057
it just, you know, we're busy.

00:38:02.277 --> 00:38:02.677
We're busy.

00:38:02.717 --> 00:38:03.978
We've got a lot of stuff we're working

00:38:04.038 --> 00:38:04.157
on.

00:38:04.498 --> 00:38:06.378
But I did notice Nate did put together

00:38:06.398 --> 00:38:07.940
a data breach roundup as usual.

00:38:07.980 --> 00:38:09.599
So if you want to look at that,

00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:10.900
that's definitely another thing to check

00:38:10.981 --> 00:38:11.141
out.

00:38:11.641 --> 00:38:12.760
Some posts by Freya.

00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:14.141
One here about...

00:38:15.798 --> 00:38:17.099
Google Family Link,

00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:19.721
allowing people to get locked out of their

00:38:19.740 --> 00:38:20.362
accounts.

00:38:21.081 --> 00:38:23.182
Signal macOS desktop app,

00:38:23.342 --> 00:38:25.324
not actually deleting messages when it

00:38:25.344 --> 00:38:25.684
should.

00:38:26.625 --> 00:38:28.445
And yeah, as I said before,

00:38:28.485 --> 00:38:29.606
the Data Breach Roundup,

00:38:30.487 --> 00:38:31.628
some big stories in there,

00:38:31.708 --> 00:38:33.009
actually quite a lot this week.

00:38:33.849 --> 00:38:35.030
So definitely check that out if you're

00:38:35.050 --> 00:38:35.530
interested.

00:38:35.831 --> 00:38:38.452
And okay,

00:38:38.791 --> 00:38:41.153
I think that's everything this week in

00:38:41.193 --> 00:38:42.414
terms of site updates.

00:38:43.835 --> 00:38:45.115
But yeah, I guess I can...

00:38:47.472 --> 00:38:49.452
kind of plug stuff a little bit here.

00:38:50.313 --> 00:38:52.255
Basically all of this is made possible by

00:38:52.295 --> 00:38:52.936
our supporters.

00:38:52.956 --> 00:38:54.916
You can sign up for a membership or

00:38:54.976 --> 00:38:56.777
donate at privacyguides.org,

00:38:57.318 --> 00:38:59.360
or you can even pick up some really

00:38:59.380 --> 00:39:02.742
cool swag at shop.privacyguides.org.

00:39:03.262 --> 00:39:06.364
I recently got some from the store and

00:39:06.445 --> 00:39:07.465
I will say I've got one of the,

00:39:07.644 --> 00:39:09.045
I'm wearing one of the hoodies right now

00:39:09.626 --> 00:39:10.927
and it's really high quality.

00:39:10.947 --> 00:39:12.568
It's actually probably one of the best

00:39:12.588 --> 00:39:13.369
hoodies that I own.

00:39:13.628 --> 00:39:16.050
So I'm not trying to shill too hard,

00:39:16.090 --> 00:39:16.831
but it definitely is.

00:39:18.172 --> 00:39:18.873
High quality.

00:39:19.012 --> 00:39:20.873
So definitely if you're considering that,

00:39:20.994 --> 00:39:21.815
definitely check it out.

00:39:23.376 --> 00:39:25.016
Privacy Guides is a nonprofit which

00:39:25.117 --> 00:39:27.099
researches and shares privacy related

00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:29.079
information and facilitates a community

00:39:29.701 --> 00:39:32.862
online on our forum and matrix where

00:39:32.882 --> 00:39:34.943
people can ask questions and get advice

00:39:35.023 --> 00:39:37.106
about staying private online and

00:39:37.146 --> 00:39:38.487
preserving their digital rights.

00:39:38.786 --> 00:39:40.568
Now let's talk about the latest

00:39:40.728 --> 00:39:44.490
developments in California around age

00:39:44.510 --> 00:39:46.813
verification laws and Linux.

00:39:52.190 --> 00:39:53.471
Yeah, let's see here.

00:39:53.630 --> 00:39:54.992
All right, so California,

00:39:56.753 --> 00:39:59.675
for those who don't know,

00:39:59.695 --> 00:40:00.375
where do we begin?

00:40:00.574 --> 00:40:04.898
So California has been doing all kinds of

00:40:06.677 --> 00:40:08.338
there's been a number of states here in

00:40:08.358 --> 00:40:09.159
the US actually,

00:40:09.518 --> 00:40:12.119
that have been implementing a wide variety

00:40:12.139 --> 00:40:12.920
of age verification.

00:40:12.940 --> 00:40:13.101
Okay,

00:40:13.161 --> 00:40:15.702
so age verification laws in any form in

00:40:15.742 --> 00:40:17.302
the US are unfortunately, I think,

00:40:17.382 --> 00:40:19.483
officially, more common than not,

00:40:19.623 --> 00:40:23.324
I think more states have passed age

00:40:23.344 --> 00:40:26.106
verification laws of some kind than have

00:40:26.166 --> 00:40:26.407
not.

00:40:27.567 --> 00:40:29.088
But that said,

00:40:29.887 --> 00:40:33.889
some states have gone a little bit, well,

00:40:35.264 --> 00:40:36.344
I don't know if I'd say it's overboard

00:40:36.364 --> 00:40:36.746
or not.

00:40:37.206 --> 00:40:37.365
I mean,

00:40:37.385 --> 00:40:38.766
it's definitely age verification laws of

00:40:38.786 --> 00:40:39.567
any kind are overboard.

00:40:39.606 --> 00:40:41.586
I'm just... You'll see what I mean.

00:40:41.746 --> 00:40:41.987
Anyways,

00:40:42.347 --> 00:40:43.748
some states have gone above and beyond and

00:40:43.768 --> 00:40:45.449
decided that they need to add this to

00:40:45.528 --> 00:40:46.829
the operating system level.

00:40:47.570 --> 00:40:50.690
And this has been wildly unpopular for a

00:40:50.731 --> 00:40:51.451
lot of reasons.

00:40:52.492 --> 00:40:53.092
And usually,

00:40:53.791 --> 00:40:55.472
a big reason with a lot of these

00:40:55.972 --> 00:40:56.833
laws of any kind,

00:40:58.074 --> 00:40:59.414
usually one major reason that people have

00:40:59.454 --> 00:41:00.855
issues with them is they're overly broad,

00:41:00.974 --> 00:41:01.155
which...

00:41:02.152 --> 00:41:03.193
I could get into a whole thing about

00:41:03.233 --> 00:41:04.393
whether or not laws are made to be

00:41:04.434 --> 00:41:06.094
brought on purpose and whether that's good

00:41:06.134 --> 00:41:06.594
or bad.

00:41:07.134 --> 00:41:07.735
Uh, I digress.

00:41:07.835 --> 00:41:08.755
But, uh,

00:41:08.775 --> 00:41:10.394
California specifically was one of the

00:41:10.454 --> 00:41:12.376
ones who said that like, you know, we're,

00:41:12.476 --> 00:41:12.856
we're gonna,

00:41:13.016 --> 00:41:15.036
every operating system has to age verify.

00:41:15.056 --> 00:41:16.217
And because California is one of the

00:41:16.237 --> 00:41:17.956
biggest States in the U S uh,

00:41:17.976 --> 00:41:19.197
the open source community was kind of

00:41:19.217 --> 00:41:20.077
like, all right, hold on.

00:41:20.338 --> 00:41:22.297
Because again,

00:41:22.338 --> 00:41:23.878
this is like the way it was originally

00:41:23.898 --> 00:41:25.978
written is I think it would even require

00:41:26.018 --> 00:41:27.880
like things like firmware to,

00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:30.240
to update and, or not update, but to,

00:41:30.340 --> 00:41:31.181
to age verify.

00:41:31.221 --> 00:41:31.320
And,

00:41:33.228 --> 00:41:34.030
Yeah, it was pretty crazy,

00:41:34.090 --> 00:41:36.032
but I guess the long story short is

00:41:36.052 --> 00:41:37.934
thankfully there was enough pushback from

00:41:37.974 --> 00:41:41.278
the community that lawmakers are now

00:41:41.358 --> 00:41:42.239
adding an amendment.

00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:42.659
What's it called?

00:41:42.721 --> 00:41:45.164
Assembly Bill one eight five six A.B.

00:41:45.244 --> 00:41:46.025
eighteen fifty six.

00:41:47.012 --> 00:41:48.474
currently moving through the California

00:41:48.514 --> 00:41:51.137
legislature ahead of committee reviews in

00:41:51.177 --> 00:41:51.518
June,

00:41:52.018 --> 00:41:53.500
would amend the state's earlier age

00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:55.041
assurance law by excluding software

00:41:55.081 --> 00:41:56.583
distributing under licenses that allow

00:41:56.663 --> 00:41:57.864
users to copy, redistribute,

00:41:57.923 --> 00:41:59.166
and modify the software.

00:41:59.346 --> 00:42:01.288
And the article says here that in

00:42:01.327 --> 00:42:01.788
practice,

00:42:02.389 --> 00:42:04.451
this would probably exempt most mainstream

00:42:04.831 --> 00:42:06.333
Linux operating systems like Debian,

00:42:06.353 --> 00:42:08.094
Fedora, Ubuntu, Arch, and Mint.

00:42:09.318 --> 00:42:12.440
But they do point out that things like

00:42:12.500 --> 00:42:13.619
SteamOS, for example,

00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:15.641
would probably still fall under the law

00:42:15.681 --> 00:42:18.842
because Steam is based on Arch,

00:42:19.083 --> 00:42:21.164
but I think it is.

00:42:21.684 --> 00:42:23.144
I know the Steam Deck is based on

00:42:23.224 --> 00:42:28.728
Arch, and I think that is SteamOS,

00:42:28.748 --> 00:42:29.289
but I could be wrong.

00:42:30.228 --> 00:42:32.369
But because it is a variation put out

00:42:32.389 --> 00:42:32.889
by Steam,

00:42:32.909 --> 00:42:35.072
there are some changes to the licensing.

00:42:35.791 --> 00:42:36.711
So yeah, yeah.

00:42:39.036 --> 00:42:39.335
I don't know.

00:42:39.376 --> 00:42:40.476
I mean, I'm going to be honest.

00:42:41.077 --> 00:42:41.898
My opinion on this one,

00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:47.963
I don't think this is a win because

00:42:50.626 --> 00:42:52.208
I don't think these laws should be there

00:42:52.228 --> 00:42:52.807
in the first place.

00:42:53.068 --> 00:42:54.309
It's really weird because I know...

00:42:56.394 --> 00:42:57.335
I will be fully honest.

00:42:57.476 --> 00:42:59.155
I used to think if age verification is

00:42:59.175 --> 00:42:59.757
going to happen,

00:42:59.996 --> 00:43:01.918
this is probably the least invasive way to

00:43:01.978 --> 00:43:02.358
do it.

00:43:03.117 --> 00:43:04.398
And I still think that may be true,

00:43:04.458 --> 00:43:07.000
but I still think that overall,

00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:10.280
these laws in general are trying to solve

00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:11.202
the problem the wrong way.

00:43:11.262 --> 00:43:12.041
And I'm sure a lot of you guys

00:43:12.061 --> 00:43:13.302
would agree with me in the sense that

00:43:13.963 --> 00:43:15.164
I think the focus should be...

00:43:16.204 --> 00:43:17.485
Not on blaming the parents,

00:43:18.485 --> 00:43:19.786
but empowering the parents.

00:43:19.865 --> 00:43:22.347
Like, I've told this story before.

00:43:22.467 --> 00:43:24.307
My sister, she had her first child.

00:43:24.748 --> 00:43:26.208
And granted, he's still a toddler.

00:43:26.309 --> 00:43:27.829
Like, when he has a device,

00:43:27.909 --> 00:43:30.891
it's because they, like, you know, okay,

00:43:30.951 --> 00:43:31.210
you can...

00:43:32.070 --> 00:43:33.851
You can watch YouTube for...

00:43:34.251 --> 00:43:35.032
What do they used to watch it?

00:43:35.152 --> 00:43:35.751
Hay Bears?

00:43:35.811 --> 00:43:36.731
It's... I mean,

00:43:36.751 --> 00:43:37.492
that was back when he was, like,

00:43:37.512 --> 00:43:37.853
an infant.

00:43:37.893 --> 00:43:38.913
But it's literally just, like,

00:43:38.932 --> 00:43:39.932
dancing shapes on screen.

00:43:40.032 --> 00:43:42.373
Anyways, like, it's stuff that it's,

00:43:42.414 --> 00:43:43.554
like... It'll keep him busy, but it's,

00:43:43.574 --> 00:43:45.355
like, for, you know, like,

00:43:45.534 --> 00:43:46.775
they don't babysit him with the screen.

00:43:47.434 --> 00:43:49.115
And the reason I mention that is,

00:43:49.135 --> 00:43:50.036
you know, when I asked her, I'm like,

00:43:50.076 --> 00:43:50.195
hey,

00:43:50.215 --> 00:43:52.317
did you know that your iPhone has parental

00:43:52.336 --> 00:43:52.697
controls?

00:43:52.717 --> 00:43:53.657
And she's like, no, I didn't.

00:43:54.277 --> 00:43:56.057
And granted, you know,

00:43:56.197 --> 00:43:57.978
he's not old enough to need those parental

00:43:57.998 --> 00:43:59.157
controls yet because he doesn't even have

00:43:59.177 --> 00:43:59.878
his own device.

00:44:00.518 --> 00:44:00.878
But...

00:44:02.831 --> 00:44:04.398
I think it would be better to focus

00:44:04.577 --> 00:44:04.719
on

00:44:06.117 --> 00:44:07.478
making sure that parents are aware of

00:44:07.498 --> 00:44:07.659
these.

00:44:07.699 --> 00:44:09.199
And we've had some conversations on this

00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:09.920
podcast before,

00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:11.740
because I know Jordan has mentioned that

00:44:12.340 --> 00:44:13.702
every time you set up an iPhone,

00:44:14.523 --> 00:44:17.164
it asks you for your age.

00:44:17.384 --> 00:44:19.644
And I don't know if that's standard

00:44:19.704 --> 00:44:20.306
everywhere now.

00:44:20.346 --> 00:44:21.827
Maybe that's something Apple just does

00:44:21.887 --> 00:44:22.146
now,

00:44:22.306 --> 00:44:24.047
or maybe that's because you live in a

00:44:24.068 --> 00:44:26.389
country that has age verification laws.

00:44:26.429 --> 00:44:28.210
But I don't know.

00:44:29.731 --> 00:44:30.490
Getting back on topic,

00:44:30.831 --> 00:44:31.652
I don't think this is a win.

00:44:31.692 --> 00:44:33.233
I think we should be focusing more on

00:44:34.471 --> 00:44:39.331
those kind of solutions because I think

00:44:39.351 --> 00:44:39.952
it's twofold.

00:44:40.072 --> 00:44:40.893
I think first of all,

00:44:41.672 --> 00:44:42.452
it's kind of selfish.

00:44:42.612 --> 00:44:43.813
It kind of says like, well,

00:44:43.833 --> 00:44:45.014
we don't care about the Windows people.

00:44:45.034 --> 00:44:46.313
We don't care about the Mac people.

00:44:46.813 --> 00:44:47.835
They don't deserve privacy,

00:44:47.855 --> 00:44:49.215
which I think is a very messed up

00:44:49.235 --> 00:44:50.655
attitude to have because privacy is a

00:44:50.695 --> 00:44:51.315
human right.

00:44:51.815 --> 00:44:53.115
And that's like saying like, oh, well,

00:44:53.135 --> 00:44:54.175
this person's not a farmer,

00:44:54.195 --> 00:44:55.396
so they don't deserve food.

00:44:55.597 --> 00:44:57.137
And I really disagree with that take.

00:44:57.677 --> 00:44:59.838
And I also worry about what if,

00:44:59.938 --> 00:45:00.157
you know,

00:45:00.257 --> 00:45:01.458
I could see the argument of like, okay,

00:45:01.498 --> 00:45:01.617
well,

00:45:01.637 --> 00:45:03.219
what if this pushes people toward Linux?

00:45:04.059 --> 00:45:05.659
first of all, not everyone can use Linux.

00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:07.039
There are people in perfectly valid

00:45:07.059 --> 00:45:08.380
situations that can't do that,

00:45:08.420 --> 00:45:09.681
or at least can't daily drive it.

00:45:10.161 --> 00:45:11.081
And second, like, okay,

00:45:11.141 --> 00:45:12.521
what happens if we push enough people

00:45:12.541 --> 00:45:13.123
towards Linux?

00:45:13.402 --> 00:45:15.143
Then now the government decides actually

00:45:15.204 --> 00:45:17.063
Linux has enough users that this now needs

00:45:17.103 --> 00:45:18.065
to be regulated too,

00:45:18.405 --> 00:45:19.764
which personally I could totally see

00:45:19.804 --> 00:45:20.146
happening.

00:45:20.226 --> 00:45:22.246
So, um,

00:45:22.326 --> 00:45:23.706
I think this is a short-term win,

00:45:23.947 --> 00:45:25.748
but I don't think it's a long-term win.

00:45:25.827 --> 00:45:26.967
And I think it leaves a lot of

00:45:27.007 --> 00:45:28.849
people up a Creek.

00:45:29.309 --> 00:45:31.130
Um, but that is my, my personal take.

00:45:31.170 --> 00:45:31.429
I don't know.

00:45:31.449 --> 00:45:33.731
Am I, am I missing something here, Jordan?

00:45:36.237 --> 00:45:39.679
um i mean yeah i think we're we've

00:45:39.699 --> 00:45:42.320
kind of like i don't know what's the

00:45:42.340 --> 00:45:44.059
what's the way of saying it like beating

00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:46.541
a dead horse something like that uh we've

00:45:46.701 --> 00:45:49.481
we've talked about this like a lot like

00:45:49.561 --> 00:45:53.163
the the you know we're going to be

00:45:53.202 --> 00:45:56.123
against any form of age verification and

00:45:56.184 --> 00:45:58.304
like oh wow they made it so linux

00:45:58.344 --> 00:45:59.425
doesn't have it it's like

00:46:01.242 --> 00:46:05.483
It can be changed at any point.

00:46:05.583 --> 00:46:09.085
I don't think this is particularly great

00:46:09.126 --> 00:46:10.505
from that aspect as well.

00:46:12.666 --> 00:46:16.409
I think also the issue with this is

00:46:18.409 --> 00:46:20.170
they haven't really backed down on age

00:46:20.210 --> 00:46:20.931
verification.

00:46:21.030 --> 00:46:23.711
They're just basically excluding very

00:46:23.771 --> 00:46:25.273
specific stuff that was the most

00:46:25.313 --> 00:46:26.052
controversial.

00:46:27.054 --> 00:46:28.713
I think we should be pushing these

00:46:28.755 --> 00:46:29.474
politicians

00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:33.523
to think like, oh, so why?

00:46:33.702 --> 00:46:34.164
Why?

00:46:34.403 --> 00:46:37.126
Why are you exempting certain operating

00:46:37.166 --> 00:46:37.626
systems?

00:46:37.646 --> 00:46:39.106
Aren't all the children just going to

00:46:39.126 --> 00:46:41.148
switch to Linux and then start using that

00:46:41.208 --> 00:46:43.710
instead and then bypass it?

00:46:44.311 --> 00:46:45.710
It doesn't really make that much sense to

00:46:45.751 --> 00:46:45.952
me.

00:46:47.132 --> 00:46:48.592
I think you either...

00:46:49.474 --> 00:46:51.715
put age verification on everything and

00:46:51.755 --> 00:46:54.079
it's like dystopian and like absolutely

00:46:54.219 --> 00:46:56.260
awful to use and it locks down the

00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.523
entire internet or you don't like there's

00:46:59.563 --> 00:47:01.224
not really a middle ground like this i

00:47:01.244 --> 00:47:03.527
think it doesn't really make that much

00:47:03.568 --> 00:47:06.851
sense to make a specific exemption for

00:47:06.911 --> 00:47:07.851
linux uh

00:47:09.266 --> 00:47:10.728
I also don't think these politicians

00:47:10.827 --> 00:47:12.931
actually think that far ahead.

00:47:13.451 --> 00:47:14.552
They just think, oh,

00:47:14.592 --> 00:47:16.215
this will sound really good to my voters.

00:47:16.235 --> 00:47:18.556
This will sound really good to my

00:47:18.597 --> 00:47:19.257
constituents.

00:47:19.978 --> 00:47:20.579
That's great,

00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:22.521
but how are you actually going to apply

00:47:22.561 --> 00:47:22.822
this?

00:47:22.862 --> 00:47:23.943
How is it actually going to be

00:47:24.023 --> 00:47:24.605
implemented?

00:47:24.744 --> 00:47:24.885
And

00:47:25.646 --> 00:47:27.166
I feel like that's also an issue that

00:47:27.286 --> 00:47:27.668
I've seen.

00:47:27.708 --> 00:47:28.467
Like,

00:47:29.009 --> 00:47:30.110
I guess I'm going to open about this,

00:47:30.190 --> 00:47:31.590
but I'm not from the US.

00:47:31.630 --> 00:47:34.954
I'm from Australia and we've had some

00:47:35.313 --> 00:47:37.295
really bad age verification stuff.

00:47:37.335 --> 00:47:39.317
I think we're one of the first countries

00:47:39.356 --> 00:47:39.858
to have that.

00:47:39.938 --> 00:47:41.059
I think it might have been the UK

00:47:41.099 --> 00:47:42.519
first.

00:47:42.860 --> 00:47:44.641
And then we did social media bans as

00:47:44.702 --> 00:47:44.981
well.

00:47:45.121 --> 00:47:49.304
So it's like, you know, it's... It's...

00:47:50.766 --> 00:47:51.306
It's really...

00:47:53.567 --> 00:47:56.349
it's really just the way that I'm seeing

00:47:56.409 --> 00:47:58.911
platforms actually move to implement these

00:47:58.931 --> 00:48:02.373
changes is it's not really working.

00:48:02.673 --> 00:48:04.414
Like I don't think they thought that far

00:48:04.454 --> 00:48:04.755
ahead.

00:48:04.775 --> 00:48:05.976
They never thought like, Oh,

00:48:06.476 --> 00:48:07.516
like how are we actually going to

00:48:07.556 --> 00:48:10.199
implement these changes to actually do

00:48:10.219 --> 00:48:10.559
this?

00:48:10.838 --> 00:48:11.579
And you know,

00:48:13.083 --> 00:48:14.784
didn't think about it from like a privacy

00:48:14.824 --> 00:48:16.385
perspective like there's definitely some

00:48:16.425 --> 00:48:18.226
people in our team that i've talked to

00:48:18.268 --> 00:48:20.829
that you know they hold the opinion that

00:48:20.929 --> 00:48:22.110
maybe there could be a way to do

00:48:22.130 --> 00:48:24.552
this in a privacy respecting way maybe

00:48:24.572 --> 00:48:26.833
there is a way to verify someone's age

00:48:26.932 --> 00:48:30.476
privately um which you know i respect that

00:48:30.496 --> 00:48:32.197
like if if that's the opinion that you

00:48:32.237 --> 00:48:33.858
hold but i think also the

00:48:36.088 --> 00:48:37.931
The fact is that a lot of times

00:48:37.951 --> 00:48:39.893
when we see this stuff, they always,

00:48:40.152 --> 00:48:40.954
they never do that.

00:48:40.994 --> 00:48:43.197
They never make it the most private and

00:48:43.237 --> 00:48:44.077
secure possible.

00:48:44.097 --> 00:48:45.559
They always go the easy route,

00:48:45.579 --> 00:48:47.802
which is people uploading their IDs and

00:48:47.862 --> 00:48:49.103
people, you know,

00:48:49.143 --> 00:48:50.764
being linked to their accounts through

00:48:50.784 --> 00:48:53.768
their ID, like, you know,

00:48:54.420 --> 00:48:55.942
I'd love to live in a society where

00:48:56.081 --> 00:48:57.322
that is the priority,

00:48:57.362 --> 00:48:58.925
but that is just not the priority for

00:48:58.965 --> 00:49:00.666
these companies and it's not the priority

00:49:00.706 --> 00:49:03.831
for these politicians either.

00:49:04.010 --> 00:49:05.311
So anyway,

00:49:05.853 --> 00:49:07.994
trying to at least conclude my thoughts

00:49:08.034 --> 00:49:08.635
here a little bit.

00:49:10.873 --> 00:49:14.356
I think asking people their age on setup,

00:49:14.396 --> 00:49:15.036
like Nate said,

00:49:15.056 --> 00:49:17.498
like that was something I noticed on not

00:49:17.538 --> 00:49:19.960
just, not just iPhones and Apple devices,

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.960
but also I noticed it when I was

00:49:21.981 --> 00:49:24.461
setting up a Google pixel as well.

00:49:24.541 --> 00:49:27.443
It asks you during the setup, like what,

00:49:27.483 --> 00:49:29.204
what age group are you?

00:49:29.505 --> 00:49:31.326
But it doesn't really seem to really push

00:49:31.385 --> 00:49:31.827
you on that.

00:49:31.887 --> 00:49:33.248
It's like, oh yeah, I'm,

00:49:33.507 --> 00:49:36.128
I'm above and you just press continue.

00:49:36.168 --> 00:49:36.710
Like it's,

00:49:37.309 --> 00:49:38.530
it doesn't really see like this,

00:49:38.731 --> 00:49:40.032
this thing that they're asking is,

00:49:40.818 --> 00:49:44.364
it doesn't seem like a very robust system

00:49:44.405 --> 00:49:45.246
in the first place.

00:49:45.726 --> 00:49:49.472
It just seems like another thing that is

00:49:49.492 --> 00:49:51.135
going to leak people's privacy and it's

00:49:51.175 --> 00:49:54.420
going to be kind of hard to implement.

00:49:56.402 --> 00:49:57.463
So yeah,

00:49:57.643 --> 00:49:59.025
I guess Nate kind of said like, oh,

00:49:59.045 --> 00:50:00.206
is this a positive thing?

00:50:01.987 --> 00:50:04.050
I mean, maybe a little bit,

00:50:04.110 --> 00:50:06.072
but like maybe it's good for the people

00:50:06.632 --> 00:50:08.293
that are using Linux in California.

00:50:08.393 --> 00:50:10.356
But like we kind of already thought that

00:50:10.396 --> 00:50:11.496
that would be the case, right?

00:50:11.536 --> 00:50:12.018
I don't think...

00:50:13.822 --> 00:50:14.722
I don't think you're going to get a

00:50:14.742 --> 00:50:17.885
whole bunch of these Linux developers who

00:50:17.905 --> 00:50:19.865
can barely even agree on what the best

00:50:19.945 --> 00:50:22.487
desktop environment is to how to implement

00:50:22.586 --> 00:50:23.567
age verification.

00:50:23.666 --> 00:50:25.608
I just don't see that ever happening.

00:50:26.407 --> 00:50:29.009
And I think people in the Linux community

00:50:29.068 --> 00:50:30.750
are even more stubborn about this sort of

00:50:30.769 --> 00:50:31.130
stuff,

00:50:32.490 --> 00:50:34.451
like implementing specific stuff like

00:50:34.492 --> 00:50:34.731
that.

00:50:36.112 --> 00:50:38.172
Some people completely avoid systemd

00:50:38.193 --> 00:50:40.813
because of all of that debacle.

00:50:40.853 --> 00:50:42.554
People will avoid using

00:50:43.175 --> 00:50:44.695
Wayland because they don't like that

00:50:44.735 --> 00:50:47.117
debacle it's like people are already very

00:50:47.177 --> 00:50:49.318
opinionated I don't think people are going

00:50:49.358 --> 00:50:52.021
to be rushing to implement age

00:50:52.041 --> 00:50:53.961
verification on their Linux distro like

00:50:54.021 --> 00:50:56.603
it's just maybe on the more corporate

00:50:56.643 --> 00:50:58.706
focused distros that might be the case but

00:50:58.766 --> 00:51:00.106
I think a lot of these community ones

00:51:00.166 --> 00:51:03.068
are just not going to comply anyway so

00:51:03.208 --> 00:51:05.150
I was like less of a concern I

00:51:05.170 --> 00:51:06.911
think SteamOS definitely could be one of

00:51:06.931 --> 00:51:10.873
those that it does comply but especially

00:51:10.893 --> 00:51:12.715
because they are accessing you know

00:51:14.045 --> 00:51:16.452
allowing access to games that are

00:51:16.472 --> 00:51:17.034
restricted.

00:51:17.414 --> 00:51:19.842
So yeah, that's kind of my thoughts.

00:51:19.981 --> 00:51:21.105
Do you have anything else you wanted to

00:51:21.144 --> 00:51:21.907
add as well, Nate?

00:51:23.396 --> 00:51:25.677
yeah i uh i definitely agree what you

00:51:25.697 --> 00:51:27.139
said about like the the community is

00:51:27.179 --> 00:51:28.900
already so fragmented like i remember

00:51:29.059 --> 00:51:32.782
system d added an optional field for age

00:51:33.483 --> 00:51:35.403
and everyone lost their minds and i'm not

00:51:35.423 --> 00:51:37.065
saying i'm not i don't have an opinion

00:51:37.125 --> 00:51:39.507
either way for the record but like just

00:51:39.686 --> 00:51:41.507
even the comment section in our videos

00:51:41.547 --> 00:51:43.429
like the people got so angry and one

00:51:43.449 --> 00:51:45.791
dude like forced system d and removed that

00:51:45.811 --> 00:51:46.411
field and

00:51:47.181 --> 00:51:49.003
Yeah, very opinionated.

00:51:50.324 --> 00:51:50.905
But yeah, no,

00:51:51.206 --> 00:51:52.407
I agree with a lot of the things

00:51:52.427 --> 00:51:52.686
you said.

00:51:53.268 --> 00:51:54.429
You mentioned that, yeah,

00:51:54.768 --> 00:51:56.831
I do believe there is, in theory,

00:51:57.351 --> 00:51:58.411
and I don't even mean like if you

00:51:58.452 --> 00:51:59.432
squint in theory,

00:51:59.853 --> 00:52:01.434
there are so many ways that we could

00:52:01.474 --> 00:52:02.896
do age verification in a

00:52:02.956 --> 00:52:04.038
privacy-respecting way,

00:52:04.177 --> 00:52:06.300
like everything done on device, encrypted,

00:52:06.380 --> 00:52:07.099
this, that, the other,

00:52:07.541 --> 00:52:08.541
all this sends is a yes or no

00:52:08.561 --> 00:52:08.882
flag.

00:52:09.181 --> 00:52:09.643
But we don't.

00:52:09.742 --> 00:52:10.463
You're absolutely right.

00:52:10.503 --> 00:52:11.905
We never do it that way because...

00:52:12.224 --> 00:52:14.346
it's cheaper it's easier you can double

00:52:14.365 --> 00:52:15.867
dip in the data i guarantee you some

00:52:15.907 --> 00:52:17.688
companies will do that if this stuff comes

00:52:17.708 --> 00:52:19.829
around um like that's not even a matter

00:52:19.849 --> 00:52:21.250
of if it's a matter of when so

00:52:21.849 --> 00:52:23.811
it could be done in a privacy respecting

00:52:23.831 --> 00:52:25.512
way but it it won't it never will

00:52:27.554 --> 00:52:28.514
um one thing i did want to mention

00:52:28.554 --> 00:52:30.554
is uh at the beginning you said that

00:52:30.594 --> 00:52:32.235
like this could change later one thing i

00:52:32.275 --> 00:52:33.217
will give california

00:52:34.309 --> 00:52:35.489
I don't know if credit's the right word,

00:52:35.570 --> 00:52:37.512
but apparently from what I understand,

00:52:37.552 --> 00:52:39.155
it's really hard to change laws in

00:52:39.195 --> 00:52:41.838
California because I remember when they

00:52:41.938 --> 00:52:43.278
came out with the, what is it,

00:52:43.298 --> 00:52:45.302
the CCPA, their privacy law,

00:52:46.041 --> 00:52:47.384
EFF was actually against it.

00:52:48.264 --> 00:52:49.766
And I remember them saying on one of

00:52:49.786 --> 00:52:51.168
their podcasts that the reason they were

00:52:51.208 --> 00:52:51.668
against it

00:52:52.128 --> 00:52:54.150
is because laws are so hard to change

00:52:54.190 --> 00:52:54.811
in California.

00:52:54.891 --> 00:52:56.291
Like normally they would be like, well,

00:52:56.913 --> 00:52:57.532
okay, cool.

00:52:57.572 --> 00:52:59.353
This is a good baseline and we'll work

00:52:59.393 --> 00:53:00.014
to improve it.

00:53:00.494 --> 00:53:01.054
But again,

00:53:01.094 --> 00:53:02.456
because laws are so hard to change in

00:53:02.496 --> 00:53:03.177
California, for some reason,

00:53:03.197 --> 00:53:04.418
it's a California specific thing.

00:53:04.938 --> 00:53:06.759
It's so hard to change existing laws that

00:53:06.778 --> 00:53:07.719
they were just kind of like, no,

00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:09.400
we need to push for better from the

00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:11.922
start because we might never be able to

00:53:11.943 --> 00:53:13.304
change this or not be able to change

00:53:13.324 --> 00:53:14.485
this for a very long time.

00:53:14.844 --> 00:53:18.746
Um, so yeah, it's, I don't know, but,

00:53:18.947 --> 00:53:19.027
um,

00:53:20.327 --> 00:53:21.568
only other thing that came to mind while

00:53:21.588 --> 00:53:22.891
you were talking is i i do think

00:53:22.911 --> 00:53:27.614
this shows that pushback can help like um

00:53:27.655 --> 00:53:30.739
we we really got to get louis rossman

00:53:30.759 --> 00:53:31.659
on the channel one of these days to

00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:33.001
tell the story but uh there is a

00:53:33.041 --> 00:53:36.443
video um full disclosure i'm on the board

00:53:36.483 --> 00:53:38.706
but louis rossman last year spoke at eff

00:53:38.786 --> 00:53:41.889
austin and he told his origin story and

00:53:41.909 --> 00:53:43.911
uh part of it was basically like

00:53:44.963 --> 00:53:45.543
It's a great video,

00:53:45.583 --> 00:53:46.262
you should go watch it.

00:53:46.324 --> 00:53:47.844
But to kind of summarize,

00:53:47.903 --> 00:53:49.844
my point is the first time he went

00:53:49.864 --> 00:53:51.666
and spoke with his local representative,

00:53:52.166 --> 00:53:55.146
he very politely was like, oh,

00:53:55.226 --> 00:53:56.306
I think this bill you're endorsing is

00:53:56.347 --> 00:53:56.686
wrong.

00:53:57.288 --> 00:54:00.409
And he explained why the bill was wrong.

00:54:01.289 --> 00:54:03.731
and the senator or not senator i can't

00:54:03.751 --> 00:54:04.530
remember what it was he might have been

00:54:04.550 --> 00:54:06.813
a senator but basically he like he um

00:54:06.932 --> 00:54:09.434
he did take rossman's advice and he he

00:54:09.494 --> 00:54:11.536
sided with rossman but he pointed out he's

00:54:11.556 --> 00:54:12.777
like yeah of course i didn't know that

00:54:12.817 --> 00:54:14.777
he's like i'm like i don't know how

00:54:14.858 --> 00:54:16.780
any of this technology works and the only

00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:19.101
person who showed up to say anything was

00:54:19.141 --> 00:54:21.043
the lobbyist from the other side who told

00:54:21.083 --> 00:54:22.563
me all this crap i didn't know he

00:54:22.583 --> 00:54:23.643
was full of crap i don't know how

00:54:23.684 --> 00:54:25.485
any of this works and um

00:54:26.365 --> 00:54:27.447
So that was when Lewis realized,

00:54:27.467 --> 00:54:27.927
he's like, oh,

00:54:27.967 --> 00:54:29.047
especially at the local level,

00:54:29.088 --> 00:54:30.610
at the state level, in the city level,

00:54:31.090 --> 00:54:32.952
a lot of the time, nobody shows up.

00:54:33.452 --> 00:54:34.393
Nobody says anything.

00:54:34.793 --> 00:54:35.653
So yeah,

00:54:35.673 --> 00:54:37.476
the whole Linux community came out pissed

00:54:37.556 --> 00:54:39.217
off about this, as they rightfully should,

00:54:39.757 --> 00:54:41.039
and the politicians rolled it back.

00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:43.900
But nobody did that for Microsoft.

00:54:43.940 --> 00:54:45.119
Nobody did that for Apple.

00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:46.940
I'm surprised they didn't push back on

00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:48.521
this because there seems like none of

00:54:48.541 --> 00:54:49.760
these companies ever want to be the ones

00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:51.121
on the hook for the IDs.

00:54:51.161 --> 00:54:52.822
But anyways, my point being is like,

00:54:52.902 --> 00:54:55.762
I guarantee you if more people in general

00:54:55.822 --> 00:54:57.264
were pushing back on age verification,

00:54:57.304 --> 00:54:58.463
the politicians would back down.

00:54:58.704 --> 00:54:59.523
It doesn't always happen,

00:54:59.583 --> 00:55:01.585
but ninety percent of the time it happens.

00:55:02.284 --> 00:55:04.005
And yeah, so I don't know.

00:55:04.025 --> 00:55:04.806
I just wanted to point that out.

00:55:04.846 --> 00:55:05.106
It's like

00:55:06.313 --> 00:55:07.474
Not to shill our own stuff too much,

00:55:07.514 --> 00:55:07.894
but you know,

00:55:07.974 --> 00:55:09.456
privacyguides.org slash activism.

00:55:09.476 --> 00:55:11.038
We have a whole activism section on how

00:55:11.077 --> 00:55:12.719
to push back on this stuff because if

00:55:12.778 --> 00:55:13.480
nobody does,

00:55:13.539 --> 00:55:15.460
like clearly the open source community

00:55:15.501 --> 00:55:16.882
pushed back and they were forced to change

00:55:16.922 --> 00:55:17.322
course.

00:55:19.045 --> 00:55:19.985
Yeah, who knows?

00:55:21.586 --> 00:55:23.248
And I do want to highlight real quick,

00:55:23.547 --> 00:55:24.528
Puring Pudding pointed out,

00:55:24.588 --> 00:55:26.070
does Android technically count as Linux?

00:55:26.550 --> 00:55:27.030
Great point.

00:55:27.170 --> 00:55:28.231
I don't think so because it's been

00:55:28.271 --> 00:55:29.751
modified and now it's released under like

00:55:29.771 --> 00:55:31.452
a different license.

00:55:31.472 --> 00:55:33.534
So like Android in the sense of like

00:55:33.695 --> 00:55:35.074
stock Android that you get on your Google

00:55:35.094 --> 00:55:38.157
Pixel or your Samsung if you buy a

00:55:38.177 --> 00:55:39.177
Samsung for some reason.

00:55:39.338 --> 00:55:41.179
But, you know,

00:55:41.719 --> 00:55:42.940
I don't think that technically counts as

00:55:42.981 --> 00:55:44.842
Linux under the definition of this law.

00:55:44.942 --> 00:55:46.382
But yeah, it's...

00:55:47.422 --> 00:55:48.503
It just goes to show that this stuff

00:55:48.523 --> 00:55:50.003
is a lot more complicated than politicians

00:55:50.043 --> 00:55:50.583
realize.

00:55:50.623 --> 00:55:54.865
So, yeah, I think that's all I got.

00:55:54.885 --> 00:55:55.766
No, that's good points.

00:55:55.865 --> 00:55:56.626
I think it's, yeah,

00:55:56.646 --> 00:55:58.547
it's important to get involved in your

00:55:58.586 --> 00:56:00.527
local community,

00:56:00.608 --> 00:56:02.527
like stuff like if you live in California,

00:56:03.409 --> 00:56:04.789
you need to make more noise.

00:56:04.829 --> 00:56:08.210
Cause I think if most people would be

00:56:08.250 --> 00:56:10.550
against this, I think, you know,

00:56:11.092 --> 00:56:12.393
maybe not, maybe not everybody,

00:56:12.454 --> 00:56:13.614
but I think a lot of people would

00:56:13.635 --> 00:56:14.657
probably be against this.

00:56:15.898 --> 00:56:17.820
It's already had so much backlash already,

00:56:19.202 --> 00:56:20.945
especially from people like Lewis Rossman

00:56:21.025 --> 00:56:21.666
and, you know,

00:56:23.297 --> 00:56:25.139
all these, all these types.

00:56:26.699 --> 00:56:28.280
So I guess that is one question.

00:56:29.442 --> 00:56:30.922
Is there, is there someone that,

00:56:31.384 --> 00:56:32.945
that people can contact about this?

00:56:32.985 --> 00:56:33.885
Like, how does this,

00:56:34.626 --> 00:56:36.068
do you have to contact your

00:56:36.367 --> 00:56:37.889
representatives in California?

00:56:37.969 --> 00:56:40.570
Is there like a way to find where

00:56:40.590 --> 00:56:41.811
to talk to someone like that?

00:56:41.851 --> 00:56:42.532
I'm not really sure.

00:56:42.592 --> 00:56:44.635
Obviously, you know, maybe.

00:56:45.835 --> 00:56:47.056
There is, I did,

00:56:47.836 --> 00:56:48.557
let me go find it.

00:56:48.657 --> 00:56:50.179
I did a blog post a while back

00:56:50.398 --> 00:56:51.440
about, oh, it's hold on.

00:56:51.460 --> 00:56:52.340
It's actually pinned at the top.

00:56:54.304 --> 00:56:54.643
Yes,

00:56:54.704 --> 00:56:56.364
basically there are websites where you can

00:56:56.385 --> 00:56:57.965
look up who your representatives are.

00:56:58.726 --> 00:57:00.385
Congress.gov, House.gov,

00:57:00.405 --> 00:57:03.706
and Senate.gov are all for state level –

00:57:03.226 --> 00:57:04.327
or state or federal level.

00:57:04.507 --> 00:57:07.847
I mean CommonCause.org and USA.gov.

00:57:08.489 --> 00:57:09.748
I think CommonCause especially.

00:57:10.309 --> 00:57:11.449
I was on one the other day that

00:57:11.489 --> 00:57:14.170
went all the way down to like –

00:57:13.820 --> 00:57:16.099
like city judges and like these people

00:57:16.119 --> 00:57:18.021
didn't even have pictures the the role is

00:57:18.081 --> 00:57:20.561
so like quote unquote small um i think

00:57:20.581 --> 00:57:23.001
that was common cause um there's proposed

00:57:23.021 --> 00:57:25.041
laws there's like bill track there's gov

00:57:25.081 --> 00:57:26.782
track there's fast democracy there's

00:57:26.862 --> 00:57:29.822
legiscan um so in the u.s those are

00:57:29.862 --> 00:57:33.023
some resources um i think we might have

00:57:33.043 --> 00:57:35.224
a bill tracker on the activism section now

00:57:35.244 --> 00:57:38.445
i'm not entirely sure um because i know

00:57:38.465 --> 00:57:40.385
we did just add a new section recently

00:57:40.465 --> 00:57:40.644
but

00:57:41.976 --> 00:57:43.257
Oh, no, that's the DPA directory.

00:57:43.378 --> 00:57:43.918
OK, my bad.

00:57:44.420 --> 00:57:45.460
I think that is something we do want

00:57:45.481 --> 00:57:46.943
to add in the future, though, hopefully.

00:57:47.023 --> 00:57:48.324
But yeah.

00:57:50.507 --> 00:57:50.947
I mean, yeah.

00:57:53.289 --> 00:57:54.510
I would start there at least to learn

00:57:54.530 --> 00:57:55.130
who you represented.

00:57:55.590 --> 00:57:57.012
Read the local news, honestly.

00:57:57.072 --> 00:57:58.913
Like I have a couple of different local

00:57:58.952 --> 00:58:01.213
news stations saved and like in the

00:58:01.253 --> 00:58:02.675
morning when I'm still kind of waking up,

00:58:02.695 --> 00:58:03.635
which is probably not the best time to

00:58:03.655 --> 00:58:04.255
be checking the news,

00:58:04.717 --> 00:58:05.918
but like when I'm still kind of waking

00:58:05.958 --> 00:58:06.057
up,

00:58:06.117 --> 00:58:07.418
I'll sit on the couch and I'll skim

00:58:07.458 --> 00:58:09.400
the headlines and I will see things about

00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:10.019
like, oh,

00:58:10.380 --> 00:58:12.121
there's a data center in this town next

00:58:12.161 --> 00:58:12.382
door.

00:58:12.422 --> 00:58:14.043
Like there's a meeting coming up on

00:58:14.103 --> 00:58:16.744
Thursday to talk about the data center.

00:58:16.885 --> 00:58:19.266
And I wanna start showing up to those

00:58:19.286 --> 00:58:20.766
things and be like, yeah, no,

00:58:20.807 --> 00:58:22.469
these are a bad idea and here's why.

00:58:24.228 --> 00:58:31.331
I know at least in my area,

00:58:31.371 --> 00:58:34.514
they've managed to get one data center

00:58:34.753 --> 00:58:36.755
temporarily paused because there was so

00:58:36.775 --> 00:58:37.335
much pushback,

00:58:37.355 --> 00:58:38.335
and I'm very proud for that.

00:58:38.375 --> 00:58:40.735
But it can make a difference.

00:58:43.396 --> 00:58:45.697
I saw this person in the chat here

00:58:45.737 --> 00:58:46.039
said,

00:58:47.641 --> 00:58:51.202
P P P P P P said in

00:58:51.242 --> 00:58:52.702
the chat, uh,

00:58:52.722 --> 00:58:54.503
get Lewis Rossman on the show.

00:58:54.623 --> 00:58:55.884
I think it's definitely possible.

00:58:56.824 --> 00:58:58.603
Uh, it's definitely possible.

00:58:59.083 --> 00:59:02.164
So it's, it's very possible.

00:59:02.505 --> 00:59:02.965
Um,

00:59:02.985 --> 00:59:04.264
we do want to do an interview with

00:59:04.304 --> 00:59:04.485
him.

00:59:04.744 --> 00:59:05.085
I just,

00:59:06.106 --> 00:59:07.565
I don't know what to ask him because

00:59:07.626 --> 00:59:09.126
I feel like he's such an open book.

00:59:09.166 --> 00:59:10.327
It's hard for me to come up with

00:59:10.367 --> 00:59:11.467
questions.

00:59:12.626 --> 00:59:13.927
Um, but yeah, no, we,

00:59:13.967 --> 00:59:14.927
we definitely want to, it's,

00:59:15.047 --> 00:59:16.128
it's something we've been thinking about

00:59:16.148 --> 00:59:17.047
and talking about a lot.

00:59:17.898 --> 00:59:20.242
It's totally doable, but yeah.

00:59:21.083 --> 00:59:21.364
I don't know.

00:59:21.684 --> 00:59:22.606
Maybe we should just have him on the

00:59:22.626 --> 00:59:23.568
podcast one of these days.

00:59:23.869 --> 00:59:24.670
We should talk to him about it.

00:59:24.690 --> 00:59:27.956
That would be fun.

00:59:27.976 --> 00:59:28.577
I was about to say that.

00:59:28.597 --> 00:59:28.998
That'd be fun.

00:59:31.164 --> 00:59:33.264
Yeah, there's also this other person here.

00:59:33.304 --> 00:59:36.266
So Terracotta Pie also said,

00:59:37.266 --> 00:59:39.126
every time I hear about age verification

00:59:39.186 --> 00:59:41.387
laws, it brings me pain.

00:59:42.067 --> 00:59:42.347
Yeah,

00:59:42.387 --> 00:59:43.686
we're kind of a little bit sick of

00:59:43.786 --> 00:59:44.507
it here.

00:59:45.186 --> 00:59:46.527
It's like every week there's like

00:59:46.668 --> 00:59:48.487
something new relating to this.

00:59:50.407 --> 00:59:50.688
Yeah,

00:59:50.927 --> 00:59:52.369
I don't know why governments right now are

00:59:52.389 --> 00:59:54.068
just like super obsessed with this

00:59:54.108 --> 00:59:54.548
suddenly.

00:59:56.168 --> 00:59:58.570
It's like AI, except, I don't know,

00:59:58.590 --> 00:59:59.530
they're obsessed with like

01:00:00.612 --> 01:00:03.255
verifying people's identities it's kind of

01:00:03.295 --> 01:00:05.699
unfortunate but I do think you know kind

01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:06.842
of coming back a little bit to that

01:00:06.961 --> 01:00:10.427
lobbying thing I do think these these

01:00:10.507 --> 01:00:12.530
lobbying groups are you know

01:00:13.820 --> 01:00:17.202
probably kind of pushing for this a lot

01:00:17.242 --> 01:00:18.744
of this technology because when they

01:00:18.784 --> 01:00:21.525
implement all these age verification like

01:00:21.545 --> 01:00:23.086
systems it's all like kind of getting

01:00:23.166 --> 01:00:26.369
funneled back into these companies uh

01:00:26.590 --> 01:00:28.971
because you know that's a lot of customers

01:00:29.010 --> 01:00:30.452
you're about to get a lot of customers

01:00:30.572 --> 01:00:32.753
if every single person on your platform

01:00:32.773 --> 01:00:36.277
needs their age verified so i can see

01:00:36.317 --> 01:00:37.998
why that might be a thing uh someone

01:00:38.038 --> 01:00:38.518
here said

01:00:39.740 --> 01:00:41.523
That'd be a good convo, yeah,

01:00:41.563 --> 01:00:42.885
to have Lewis Rossman on.

01:00:42.925 --> 01:00:44.146
Yeah, I definitely agree.

01:00:45.168 --> 01:00:46.208
That would be really cool.

01:00:47.791 --> 01:00:48.010
Yeah,

01:00:48.050 --> 01:00:51.574
and something else you said that I forgot

01:00:51.594 --> 01:00:53.297
to make a note about was when we

01:00:53.336 --> 01:00:54.778
talked about you set up a device and

01:00:54.798 --> 01:00:55.820
it asks you what's your age,

01:00:55.840 --> 01:00:57.322
what I would love to see is...

01:00:58.336 --> 01:01:01.001
Because I think something that I've been

01:01:01.041 --> 01:01:02.603
trying to focus on a lot more is

01:01:03.063 --> 01:01:06.088
like in arguing with this – or when

01:01:06.128 --> 01:01:07.630
talking about this age verification stuff,

01:01:07.650 --> 01:01:08.472
especially with parents,

01:01:08.931 --> 01:01:10.875
is to point out that it takes away

01:01:11.817 --> 01:01:16.011
their –

01:01:13.288 --> 01:01:15.650
agency as parents it takes away their

01:01:16.371 --> 01:01:19.112
right to decide what sites they think are

01:01:19.172 --> 01:01:20.693
okay for their kids to visit and when

01:01:20.713 --> 01:01:22.594
they think their kids are old enough and

01:01:22.755 --> 01:01:24.117
i think i completely sympathize with

01:01:24.157 --> 01:01:26.358
parents who feel like maybe the internet

01:01:26.398 --> 01:01:27.860
is a little overwhelming and technology is

01:01:27.900 --> 01:01:30.601
overwhelming these days i think that's um

01:01:30.681 --> 01:01:33.844
a perfectly legitimate way to feel but

01:01:34.918 --> 01:01:35.458
I think, again,

01:01:35.498 --> 01:01:36.798
going back to the example of my sister,

01:01:37.438 --> 01:01:39.440
how many of these devices will prompt you?

01:01:39.659 --> 01:01:41.501
Like, is this a child's phone?

01:01:42.981 --> 01:01:43.961
And how many of them?

01:01:44.061 --> 01:01:45.181
And I genuinely don't know.

01:01:45.641 --> 01:01:46.663
I haven't set up a new phone in

01:01:46.782 --> 01:01:47.182
ages.

01:01:47.702 --> 01:01:48.322
And, you know,

01:01:48.382 --> 01:01:49.724
since I mostly use custom operating

01:01:49.764 --> 01:01:52.105
systems, like maybe they're all, you know,

01:01:52.164 --> 01:01:53.505
they don't do this stuff, obviously.

01:01:53.565 --> 01:01:54.565
But yeah.

01:01:55.846 --> 01:01:57.427
It would be nice to see a phone

01:01:57.467 --> 01:01:58.987
that like asks you, you know, OK,

01:01:59.007 --> 01:02:00.788
this person is like thirteen to fifteen

01:02:01.427 --> 01:02:03.369
and it shows you here are the parental

01:02:03.389 --> 01:02:05.150
controls available instead of.

01:02:06.670 --> 01:02:06.869
You know,

01:02:07.150 --> 01:02:07.931
I don't know if it does that,

01:02:08.231 --> 01:02:09.170
and I think that's what I would like

01:02:09.190 --> 01:02:09.972
to see is, you know,

01:02:10.211 --> 01:02:12.411
to raise awareness that there's already

01:02:12.452 --> 01:02:15.052
tools that, from what I understand,

01:02:15.134 --> 01:02:16.014
are pretty decent.

01:02:16.974 --> 01:02:18.014
And yeah.

01:02:18.235 --> 01:02:19.655
And also we need more of those tools

01:02:19.695 --> 01:02:20.916
on the privacy focused stuff.

01:02:20.976 --> 01:02:23.199
Like I saw an article from proton earlier

01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:24.860
this week about how Chrome has built in

01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:26.141
parental controls and you can block

01:02:26.181 --> 01:02:27.222
specific websites and stuff.

01:02:27.242 --> 01:02:28.103
And I'm like, that's amazing.

01:02:28.824 --> 01:02:30.065
I bet you brave doesn't have that.

01:02:30.105 --> 01:02:31.286
Cause you have to sign into a Google

01:02:31.306 --> 01:02:32.047
account to do it.

01:02:32.106 --> 01:02:33.748
But yeah,

01:02:33.768 --> 01:02:34.648
that's what I would like to see is

01:02:34.688 --> 01:02:36.110
just more stuff that's focused on

01:02:36.610 --> 01:02:38.532
empowering the parents to know what

01:02:38.612 --> 01:02:40.534
options are out there and how to exercise

01:02:40.554 --> 01:02:42.335
them rather than just trying to parent for

01:02:42.375 --> 01:02:42.835
the parents,

01:02:42.894 --> 01:02:44.637
which I don't think any parents really

01:02:44.677 --> 01:02:45.717
want to be honest.

01:02:45.737 --> 01:02:45.878
So.

01:02:47.568 --> 01:02:51.269
I don't know.

01:02:51.289 --> 01:02:51.650
Just a thought.

01:02:51.670 --> 01:02:51.889
Definitely.

01:02:52.250 --> 01:02:54.311
I guess here we could jump into this

01:02:54.851 --> 01:02:55.550
next topic.

01:02:56.110 --> 01:02:57.512
This one here comes...

01:02:57.532 --> 01:03:00.251
They're just two kind of quick topics that

01:03:00.811 --> 01:03:01.992
I thought we should cover this week,

01:03:02.032 --> 01:03:06.253
which was something about F-Droid and

01:03:06.313 --> 01:03:07.853
another thing about the Tor project.

01:03:07.873 --> 01:03:09.594
So just quickly jumping into these two

01:03:09.635 --> 01:03:10.275
topics here.

01:03:13.195 --> 01:03:14.996
This one here from F-Droid is...

01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:20.523
new financial support for fdroid thanks to

01:03:20.862 --> 01:03:27.367
floss fund so fdroid was recently uh was

01:03:27.447 --> 01:03:30.228
awarded fifty thousand dollars in funding

01:03:30.289 --> 01:03:35.773
from the floss fund and basically it's a

01:03:35.853 --> 01:03:40.416
fund that basically uh funds valuable open

01:03:40.456 --> 01:03:41.838
source projects um

01:03:43.262 --> 01:03:46.025
I think this is also super important for

01:03:46.065 --> 01:03:48.608
these projects because a lot of times

01:03:48.769 --> 01:03:49.891
hiring developers,

01:03:49.931 --> 01:03:51.552
developers are really expensive,

01:03:52.213 --> 01:03:54.436
especially if you need a good developer,

01:03:55.157 --> 01:03:57.059
that's easily over a hundred and fifty

01:03:57.079 --> 01:03:58.099
thousand dollars a year.

01:03:58.860 --> 01:04:01.463
in employment costs to get someone

01:04:01.483 --> 01:04:02.603
employed for that.

01:04:03.465 --> 01:04:05.567
I think that's really cool.

01:04:06.226 --> 01:04:08.909
Basically reading more into this article

01:04:08.949 --> 01:04:09.650
here,

01:04:09.670 --> 01:04:11.550
some information about the Floss Fund.

01:04:11.771 --> 01:04:13.472
The Floss Fund aims to donate up to

01:04:13.592 --> 01:04:15.693
one million dollars annually to Floss

01:04:15.735 --> 01:04:18.336
projects worldwide with no strings

01:04:18.376 --> 01:04:20.237
attached with the purpose of empowering

01:04:20.277 --> 01:04:22.340
developers and maintainers through

01:04:22.380 --> 01:04:25.262
financial resources to sustain and grow

01:04:25.402 --> 01:04:27.443
critical open-source ecosystems.

01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:30.181
Notable FOSS projects like Blender,

01:04:30.681 --> 01:04:31.382
FFmpeg,

01:04:31.822 --> 01:04:34.164
OpenStreetMap have gotten support in the

01:04:34.204 --> 01:04:36.344
past and now FDroid has too.

01:04:36.864 --> 01:04:38.206
The introduction of the funding,

01:04:39.347 --> 01:04:43.409
funding.json standard built on JSON allows

01:04:43.608 --> 01:04:45.610
projects to add funding details in the

01:04:45.650 --> 01:04:46.210
code base,

01:04:46.331 --> 01:04:48.371
making it easier for backers to navigate

01:04:48.492 --> 01:04:49.152
aid efforts.

01:04:49.393 --> 01:04:52.454
This streamlines donor support and quietly

01:04:52.635 --> 01:04:54.876
builds a stronger financial foundation

01:04:55.336 --> 01:04:57.197
across community-driven tech work.

01:04:58.826 --> 01:04:59.726
So basically,

01:04:59.967 --> 01:05:02.829
they kind of go through how they're going

01:05:02.849 --> 01:05:05.972
to use these funds.

01:05:07.675 --> 01:05:08.135
Basically,

01:05:08.916 --> 01:05:10.717
what F-Rite is saying is they're going to

01:05:10.898 --> 01:05:12.559
move some key tasks forward,

01:05:12.619 --> 01:05:14.400
like supporting core operations,

01:05:14.481 --> 01:05:15.561
updating infrastructure,

01:05:15.621 --> 01:05:18.385
securing new features for better access to

01:05:18.465 --> 01:05:19.927
ad-free community-built software.

01:05:20.447 --> 01:05:22.527
Working on supporting a new format called

01:05:22.568 --> 01:05:23.548
funding.json,

01:05:23.648 --> 01:05:25.851
this is a standard way for app creators

01:05:25.871 --> 01:05:27.791
to share information about how people can

01:05:27.851 --> 01:05:30.134
donate money to support their projects.

01:05:30.873 --> 01:05:32.235
And once that work's done,

01:05:32.534 --> 01:05:33.376
FDroid's server,

01:05:33.456 --> 01:05:34.996
the tooling we use to manage our app

01:05:35.036 --> 01:05:35.317
store,

01:05:35.597 --> 01:05:37.358
will be able to automatically collect

01:05:37.418 --> 01:05:39.440
donation information from app projects

01:05:39.500 --> 01:05:41.581
that have set up funding.json on their

01:05:41.601 --> 01:05:42.061
website.

01:05:42.902 --> 01:05:43.762
So basically,

01:05:43.782 --> 01:05:45.164
this is kind of like a move to

01:05:45.884 --> 01:05:48.045
allow developers to get funding that they

01:05:48.126 --> 01:05:49.146
need for their apps.

01:05:50.467 --> 01:05:51.407
It's kind of interesting.

01:05:51.748 --> 01:05:53.969
Basically, if your app is on F-Droid,

01:05:54.028 --> 01:05:56.989
you may qualify for the Floss Fund.

01:05:58.530 --> 01:06:01.913
It's basically there to support existing

01:06:02.032 --> 01:06:04.554
and widely used open source projects on

01:06:04.574 --> 01:06:04.853
there.

01:06:06.994 --> 01:06:08.175
So I think, you know,

01:06:08.255 --> 01:06:09.735
this is going to be really good for

01:06:10.096 --> 01:06:11.157
developers that are

01:06:12.880 --> 01:06:14.342
you know, making apps that, like,

01:06:14.382 --> 01:06:16.001
a lot of people are downloading but, like,

01:06:16.101 --> 01:06:18.744
no one is supporting because, you know,

01:06:19.623 --> 01:06:20.744
I think a lot of people kind of

01:06:20.824 --> 01:06:22.224
take things for granted a little bit.

01:06:22.264 --> 01:06:24.385
Like, behind every app that you're using,

01:06:24.425 --> 01:06:24.885
there's, like,

01:06:24.945 --> 01:06:27.447
a person developing that and, you know,

01:06:27.507 --> 01:06:29.148
it takes a lot of time to maintain

01:06:29.188 --> 01:06:30.469
things, keep things updating,

01:06:30.509 --> 01:06:32.028
keep things working properly.

01:06:32.530 --> 01:06:33.050
Yeah.

01:06:34.434 --> 01:06:35.996
So I think people should try and donate

01:06:36.695 --> 01:06:37.516
whenever they can.

01:06:38.137 --> 01:06:39.418
I think that's super important.

01:06:40.019 --> 01:06:41.521
I guess to dive into the second story

01:06:41.561 --> 01:06:42.943
here from the tour project,

01:06:44.503 --> 01:06:46.887
there's this new coalition of

01:06:48.608 --> 01:06:52.773
privacy projects and this is led by the

01:06:52.813 --> 01:06:55.976
Tor Project and the Funding the Commons

01:06:56.597 --> 01:07:00.460
and basically it's a participatory funding

01:07:00.501 --> 01:07:02.744
campaign so if you go to

01:07:02.864 --> 01:07:05.525
internetfreedom.torproject.org

01:07:06.306 --> 01:07:07.967
Or you can go to that website through

01:07:07.987 --> 01:07:09.327
their onion link.

01:07:10.068 --> 01:07:13.969
It's basically a Web three native

01:07:14.030 --> 01:07:15.311
crowdfunding initiative.

01:07:15.911 --> 01:07:16.331
Basically,

01:07:16.510 --> 01:07:20.432
this is a way to accept contributions in

01:07:20.512 --> 01:07:23.074
Bitcoin, Ethereum, Zcash, Monero,

01:07:23.653 --> 01:07:24.934
Gollum and others.

01:07:25.534 --> 01:07:25.894
Yeah,

01:07:25.914 --> 01:07:28.137
it basically can benefit ten non-profit

01:07:28.177 --> 01:07:30.617
projects working across privacy,

01:07:30.697 --> 01:07:32.059
censorship, circumvention,

01:07:32.099 --> 01:07:34.420
secure communications and public interest

01:07:35.061 --> 01:07:36.360
digital infrastructure.

01:07:38.822 --> 01:07:40.744
And basically there's an initial one

01:07:40.764 --> 01:07:42.945
hundred and fifteen thousand USD matching

01:07:42.985 --> 01:07:45.646
pool, which was supported by Cake Wallet,

01:07:45.666 --> 01:07:48.748
Zcash Community Grants, Logos and Octant.

01:07:49.994 --> 01:07:51.735
So I think this is also one of

01:07:51.755 --> 01:07:53.795
these things where I think the Tor

01:07:53.815 --> 01:07:54.257
project,

01:07:54.697 --> 01:07:56.737
as well as a lot of other projects

01:07:56.757 --> 01:07:58.797
that are listed on this page,

01:07:59.297 --> 01:08:01.559
a lot of them were benefiting from, like,

01:08:01.579 --> 01:08:04.239
US government funding through, like,

01:08:04.280 --> 01:08:06.081
the Open Technology Fund as well.

01:08:06.221 --> 01:08:06.740
So, you know,

01:08:06.780 --> 01:08:09.581
that is currently being stripped down a

01:08:09.621 --> 01:08:11.402
lot by the current US government.

01:08:13.302 --> 01:08:13.804
So, you know,

01:08:13.824 --> 01:08:15.764
they've definitely seen a dip in funding.

01:08:16.283 --> 01:08:16.965
And I think this is...

01:08:18.203 --> 01:08:21.203
kind of important to develop a parallel

01:08:21.243 --> 01:08:23.145
system to allow these projects to keep

01:08:23.545 --> 01:08:24.265
getting funding.

01:08:26.025 --> 01:08:27.386
And I guess to talk about some of

01:08:27.405 --> 01:08:27.987
these projects.

01:08:28.006 --> 01:08:30.567
So this includes SecureDrop, Open Archive,

01:08:30.707 --> 01:08:32.908
Onionshare, Ricochet Refresh,

01:08:33.408 --> 01:08:34.208
Onion Browser,

01:08:34.628 --> 01:08:38.609
Open Observatory of Network Interference,

01:08:39.890 --> 01:08:41.912
Passcouchet, I don't know that one,

01:08:42.192 --> 01:08:45.073
Unredacted, Digital Security Helpdesk,

01:08:45.453 --> 01:08:45.632
and

01:08:50.595 --> 01:08:51.756
I don't know that one that one must

01:08:51.777 --> 01:08:56.520
be uh one that's a bit more international

01:08:57.001 --> 01:08:59.923
um I haven't seen that one before but

01:09:00.824 --> 01:09:02.786
yeah that is that is really interesting so

01:09:04.307 --> 01:09:08.350
basically it's designed to ampli this this

01:09:08.371 --> 01:09:10.252
whole like funding model is basically

01:09:10.313 --> 01:09:10.993
meant to

01:09:12.279 --> 01:09:14.740
amplify the impact of small contributions

01:09:14.761 --> 01:09:16.681
like they're basically those those

01:09:16.721 --> 01:09:17.962
organizations that were there they're

01:09:18.002 --> 01:09:22.546
basically uh boosting the impact of of

01:09:22.586 --> 01:09:25.367
that funding um so that is really

01:09:25.386 --> 01:09:28.770
interesting uh but yeah i don't know

01:09:28.789 --> 01:09:30.069
there's i don't really have too much to

01:09:30.109 --> 01:09:31.810
add here not really super familiar with a

01:09:31.831 --> 01:09:35.234
lot of these cryptocurrency things um so i

01:09:35.274 --> 01:09:36.654
don't know do you have any thoughts on

01:09:36.734 --> 01:09:38.756
either of these quick stories here nate

01:09:40.618 --> 01:09:41.837
Um, just a couple of quick thoughts.

01:09:42.139 --> 01:09:42.878
Uh, one of them you,

01:09:43.099 --> 01:09:44.059
you kind of already touched on,

01:09:44.078 --> 01:09:45.219
but I really want to drive home is

01:09:45.259 --> 01:09:47.140
the F droid one is, um, you know,

01:09:47.180 --> 01:09:48.140
some,

01:09:48.180 --> 01:09:49.860
some developers I know like absolutely

01:09:49.900 --> 01:09:50.820
refuse to take funding.

01:09:50.881 --> 01:09:52.782
Like you block origin famously does not

01:09:52.822 --> 01:09:54.761
take any, any donations at all.

01:09:55.082 --> 01:09:57.443
Um, and I, I think that's fine,

01:09:57.483 --> 01:09:59.984
but I think also, um,

01:10:00.043 --> 01:10:02.484
I know in the, again,

01:10:02.524 --> 01:10:03.524
to reference it in the past as

01:10:03.545 --> 01:10:04.204
surveillance report,

01:10:04.765 --> 01:10:06.145
we had like less than one percent of

01:10:06.166 --> 01:10:07.105
our viewers were

01:10:08.755 --> 01:10:09.675
donating in any way.

01:10:09.715 --> 01:10:09.954
And I mean,

01:10:09.975 --> 01:10:10.914
I think all we had was like a

01:10:11.055 --> 01:10:13.315
Patreon or something like that,

01:10:13.355 --> 01:10:14.576
but it was like literally less than one

01:10:14.615 --> 01:10:15.695
percent of viewers.

01:10:15.895 --> 01:10:20.737
And it's it's I know it's tricky,

01:10:20.777 --> 01:10:21.636
especially right now.

01:10:21.796 --> 01:10:23.438
Trust me,

01:10:23.457 --> 01:10:25.078
finances are keeping me up at night with

01:10:25.177 --> 01:10:27.637
the cost of everything.

01:10:27.677 --> 01:10:28.037
Thanks.

01:10:28.957 --> 01:10:31.658
But it's it's I know right now it's

01:10:31.698 --> 01:10:32.259
really tricky.

01:10:32.338 --> 01:10:34.819
But if anybody is in a position to

01:10:34.939 --> 01:10:35.800
support projects,

01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:37.800
any projects like it doesn't

01:10:39.189 --> 01:10:40.009
I don't know if they'll like me saying

01:10:40.048 --> 01:10:41.109
this, but it doesn't have to be us.

01:10:41.350 --> 01:10:42.109
It could be Signal.

01:10:42.189 --> 01:10:43.189
It could be Tor.

01:10:43.250 --> 01:10:45.990
It could be whatever you get value out

01:10:46.051 --> 01:10:46.131
of.

01:10:46.251 --> 01:10:47.372
Or one thing that I recommend to a

01:10:47.391 --> 01:10:49.813
lot of people is cycle it.

01:10:50.132 --> 01:10:51.472
This month, give five bucks to Tor.

01:10:51.533 --> 01:10:51.893
Next month,

01:10:51.912 --> 01:10:54.895
give five bucks to Signal or whatever.

01:10:55.194 --> 01:10:56.175
I don't know why I keep fixating on

01:10:56.194 --> 01:10:58.576
those two, but you know what I mean?

01:10:58.636 --> 01:10:59.716
Sit down and think about what are the

01:10:59.815 --> 01:11:01.277
apps you use that you would be really

01:11:01.317 --> 01:11:02.396
devastated if they went away.

01:11:03.497 --> 01:11:04.578
There was actually an update this morning

01:11:04.618 --> 01:11:05.097
on Session.

01:11:05.837 --> 01:11:07.179
It looks like Session...

01:11:07.899 --> 01:11:09.779
secured enough funding to basically keep

01:11:09.819 --> 01:11:11.820
going past their original shutdown date,

01:11:12.480 --> 01:11:13.360
but they're going to have to do it

01:11:13.381 --> 01:11:15.341
in a severely weakened state.

01:11:15.381 --> 01:11:16.502
Like they're basically only going to have

01:11:16.523 --> 01:11:18.103
enough money to pay for like one developer

01:11:18.143 --> 01:11:19.123
and basic infrastructure,

01:11:19.224 --> 01:11:20.203
if I remember correctly.

01:11:21.564 --> 01:11:23.024
I read that at like eight this morning

01:11:23.045 --> 01:11:23.966
and I hadn't had my coffee yet.

01:11:25.402 --> 01:11:28.302
it's, it's things like that are, you know,

01:11:28.363 --> 01:11:30.283
that's the risk of not funding these

01:11:30.304 --> 01:11:30.484
things.

01:11:30.524 --> 01:11:32.144
And again, I understand I, I,

01:11:32.163 --> 01:11:33.545
not everyone has money and I,

01:11:33.725 --> 01:11:35.145
I completely sympathize with that.

01:11:35.204 --> 01:11:37.506
But if you do have money,

01:11:37.626 --> 01:11:38.985
even like five bucks, a couple of dollars,

01:11:39.006 --> 01:11:41.747
like if, um, you know, these,

01:11:41.806 --> 01:11:42.966
these are projects that have like

01:11:43.046 --> 01:11:44.188
thousands of users.

01:11:44.287 --> 01:11:46.307
And if everyone gave a dollar a month,

01:11:46.608 --> 01:11:47.929
like that would probably fund these

01:11:47.969 --> 01:11:48.948
developers full time.

01:11:49.088 --> 01:11:50.810
So yeah.

01:11:51.430 --> 01:11:51.510
Um,

01:11:53.104 --> 01:11:55.966
I think that's a really important thing.

01:11:56.747 --> 01:11:58.927
This is kind of my time.

01:11:58.948 --> 01:12:01.329
I'm going to kind of plug privacy guides

01:12:01.350 --> 01:12:01.510
here.

01:12:01.529 --> 01:12:03.890
We also need funding as well.

01:12:05.773 --> 01:12:08.675
This whole project, to have Nate,

01:12:08.715 --> 01:12:09.435
to have me,

01:12:09.475 --> 01:12:12.277
to have Jonah working on this a lot,

01:12:12.317 --> 01:12:14.838
full-time working on this, it costs money,

01:12:14.899 --> 01:12:15.118
right?

01:12:15.719 --> 01:12:17.780
People need money to live, unfortunately,

01:12:17.961 --> 01:12:18.081
and...

01:12:21.300 --> 01:12:22.740
If it was a way to do this

01:12:22.780 --> 01:12:24.180
without having to do that and we could

01:12:24.201 --> 01:12:26.442
like, you know, dedicate all the funds to,

01:12:26.681 --> 01:12:28.983
you know, whatever, something bigger,

01:12:29.002 --> 01:12:29.542
it would be great.

01:12:29.603 --> 01:12:30.023
But, you know,

01:12:30.103 --> 01:12:33.784
people need money to survive and get a

01:12:33.824 --> 01:12:34.085
live.

01:12:34.164 --> 01:12:35.904
So, you know,

01:12:35.944 --> 01:12:37.305
every donation that you make here is

01:12:37.386 --> 01:12:39.646
supporting people working full time on

01:12:39.686 --> 01:12:42.007
this project and trying to bring people

01:12:42.108 --> 01:12:43.108
the most joy.

01:12:43.823 --> 01:12:47.027
important information on this topic and

01:12:47.067 --> 01:12:49.248
build out resources like the app verifier

01:12:49.390 --> 01:12:49.970
database,

01:12:49.989 --> 01:12:52.012
like videos that we're putting out,

01:12:52.712 --> 01:12:54.034
all the articles that we have,

01:12:54.074 --> 01:12:55.777
like with Freya and Nate putting out

01:12:55.817 --> 01:12:56.278
articles.

01:12:57.756 --> 01:13:00.198
activism section merchandise that we

01:13:00.238 --> 01:13:03.139
create like this is all stuff that you

01:13:03.158 --> 01:13:06.220
know we need to pay people for um

01:13:06.319 --> 01:13:08.119
unfortunately like that's just the reality

01:13:08.199 --> 01:13:11.140
right so uh you know if you do

01:13:11.201 --> 01:13:12.641
really like what we're doing and you want

01:13:12.662 --> 01:13:15.243
to see this continue that is one thing

01:13:15.262 --> 01:13:16.082
that i think you know

01:13:16.903 --> 01:13:18.783
even if it's like a very small amount

01:13:19.323 --> 01:13:21.885
of money, like I think any amount helps,

01:13:22.104 --> 01:13:23.286
especially any project.

01:13:24.747 --> 01:13:25.787
And again, like Nate said,

01:13:25.806 --> 01:13:26.967
like you don't have to,

01:13:27.007 --> 01:13:29.088
please don't like donate if you're in a

01:13:29.128 --> 01:13:31.168
position that is not financially stable.

01:13:31.208 --> 01:13:33.289
Like this is, you know,

01:13:33.369 --> 01:13:34.751
I feel like we're like at a really,

01:13:35.350 --> 01:13:35.591
really,

01:13:35.610 --> 01:13:37.152
really tough point in history at the

01:13:37.171 --> 01:13:38.453
moment where things are just like,

01:13:39.172 --> 01:13:41.375
really expensive and it's really tough so

01:13:41.935 --> 01:13:44.578
definitely don't feel obligated but if you

01:13:44.658 --> 01:13:46.360
are in a position where you can support

01:13:46.421 --> 01:13:49.543
things you know consider donating to us

01:13:49.583 --> 01:13:51.265
consider donating to these projects like

01:13:51.286 --> 01:13:52.686
you don't even have to donate to us

01:13:52.726 --> 01:13:55.569
just donate to something uh these projects

01:13:55.869 --> 01:13:57.271
uh they need

01:13:57.832 --> 01:14:01.957
support so uh and oh sod this all

01:14:01.997 --> 01:14:05.421
just gifted a privacy guides membership so

01:14:05.442 --> 01:14:08.225
thank you so much um so this all

01:14:08.244 --> 01:14:09.605
does that a lot we appreciate your

01:14:09.626 --> 01:14:10.167
generosity

01:14:11.658 --> 01:14:12.918
Yeah, that is really kind.

01:14:13.439 --> 01:14:16.021
So congrats to someone who got that

01:14:16.061 --> 01:14:16.622
membership.

01:14:17.122 --> 01:14:18.984
Speaking of memberships, I guess,

01:14:19.625 --> 01:14:23.849
you'll be able to access a bonus section

01:14:23.908 --> 01:14:25.871
of the Naomi Brockwell interview if you

01:14:25.911 --> 01:14:27.332
did sign up for that.

01:14:27.372 --> 01:14:28.653
We did see there was two people

01:14:29.979 --> 01:14:31.779
who signed up for that again.

01:14:32.260 --> 01:14:32.381
Uh,

01:14:32.421 --> 01:14:34.461
they rejoined our membership program on

01:14:34.480 --> 01:14:35.001
YouTube.

01:14:35.541 --> 01:14:37.962
Uh, it was someone with a Korean name.

01:14:38.042 --> 01:14:38.561
I'm not gonna,

01:14:38.622 --> 01:14:39.662
I don't know how to say that.

01:14:39.761 --> 01:14:41.481
So I can't really say that.

01:14:41.542 --> 01:14:44.363
And there was also someone as well named

01:14:44.403 --> 01:14:44.802
Thomas.

01:14:44.863 --> 01:14:47.404
So thank you to those people that rejoined

01:14:47.463 --> 01:14:49.064
to access some of that early access

01:14:49.083 --> 01:14:49.644
content.

01:14:50.003 --> 01:14:53.744
Um, it's definitely, uh,

01:14:54.997 --> 01:14:56.939
It's a cool perk that we're happy to

01:14:56.998 --> 01:14:57.538
give people.

01:14:58.840 --> 01:15:01.722
And we hope that you get some value

01:15:01.762 --> 01:15:02.143
from that.

01:15:02.182 --> 01:15:04.585
We're just trying to give back to people

01:15:04.805 --> 01:15:06.567
who do support us because we do really

01:15:06.587 --> 01:15:07.207
appreciate it.

01:15:08.309 --> 01:15:09.909
Yeah, W, sod this all.

01:15:10.029 --> 01:15:10.310
Yeah.

01:15:11.712 --> 01:15:11.931
Yeah.

01:15:13.052 --> 01:15:13.993
You've been very generous.

01:15:14.014 --> 01:15:16.935
So thank you so much for gifting regularly

01:15:16.956 --> 01:15:17.997
as well.

01:15:18.117 --> 01:15:19.337
It's really, really appreciated.

01:15:19.358 --> 01:15:20.038
That is so kind.

01:15:23.599 --> 01:15:26.341
um yeah i think uh if that's all

01:15:26.360 --> 01:15:27.863
we had on that there was one last

01:15:27.882 --> 01:15:29.423
story i wanted to sneak in real quick

01:15:29.703 --> 01:15:32.046
um just because i thought this was super

01:15:32.065 --> 01:15:33.386
super awesome and exciting and this will

01:15:33.407 --> 01:15:34.568
be real quick because we don't have too

01:15:34.608 --> 01:15:37.029
much to say about it but uh um

01:15:37.390 --> 01:15:39.430
researchers at eth zurich believe they

01:15:39.452 --> 01:15:41.552
have created perfect randomness for the

01:15:41.573 --> 01:15:43.715
first time so uh for those who don't

01:15:43.755 --> 01:15:49.158
know um i would argue nothing in life

01:15:49.279 --> 01:15:51.501
is perfectly random um

01:15:52.768 --> 01:15:54.748
Certainly almost nothing in the digital

01:15:54.769 --> 01:15:55.048
world.

01:15:56.090 --> 01:15:59.072
Even like your password manager,

01:15:59.351 --> 01:16:00.893
when you tell it to generate a random

01:16:00.932 --> 01:16:02.594
password, it's not really that random.

01:16:03.213 --> 01:16:05.536
And the thing is with computers

01:16:05.956 --> 01:16:08.797
specifically, if you generate randomness,

01:16:09.478 --> 01:16:11.219
they have to have something that they're

01:16:11.238 --> 01:16:12.479
deriving that randomness from.

01:16:12.539 --> 01:16:14.140
So usually what they'll do is,

01:16:14.180 --> 01:16:15.122
for example, they'll do...

01:16:17.391 --> 01:16:19.054
let's say they'll take the time and

01:16:19.073 --> 01:16:20.176
they'll go all the way down to like

01:16:20.216 --> 01:16:22.338
the millisecond or like however far the

01:16:22.378 --> 01:16:22.960
clock can go.

01:16:23.020 --> 01:16:25.042
They'll take the actual timestamp with the

01:16:25.063 --> 01:16:26.123
date and the time and everything.

01:16:26.824 --> 01:16:29.307
And that will be the,

01:16:29.469 --> 01:16:30.550
I don't know what the technical word is

01:16:30.569 --> 01:16:30.729
for it,

01:16:30.750 --> 01:16:31.731
but I'm gonna call it like the seed

01:16:31.752 --> 01:16:32.231
or the key.

01:16:32.632 --> 01:16:33.493
That'll be the seed

01:16:34.255 --> 01:16:36.577
that they feed into an algorithm and that

01:16:36.657 --> 01:16:39.798
algorithm generates a random thing based

01:16:39.878 --> 01:16:40.399
on the time.

01:16:40.719 --> 01:16:42.359
But it's technically not random because if

01:16:42.380 --> 01:16:44.402
you feed that exact same time into the

01:16:44.442 --> 01:16:44.782
algorithm,

01:16:44.801 --> 01:16:46.182
you're always gonna get the same response

01:16:46.262 --> 01:16:46.363
out.

01:16:46.863 --> 01:16:48.524
It just seems random because

01:16:50.326 --> 01:16:50.805
theoretically,

01:16:50.826 --> 01:16:51.947
we're never gonna see that time again,

01:16:51.987 --> 01:16:52.266
right?

01:16:52.306 --> 01:16:54.588
So it's really good.

01:16:54.948 --> 01:16:56.710
And this article points out that in most

01:16:56.770 --> 01:16:57.990
applications, this is fine.

01:16:59.612 --> 01:17:01.533
But in cryptography, especially very,

01:17:01.592 --> 01:17:02.814
very sensitive high-level stuff,

01:17:02.854 --> 01:17:03.595
this can be,

01:17:04.962 --> 01:17:06.363
a bit of an issue and for the

01:17:06.382 --> 01:17:08.224
record we're talking like really advanced

01:17:08.323 --> 01:17:11.305
advanced advanced like like state level

01:17:11.345 --> 01:17:13.408
zero day kind of stuff this is like

01:17:13.467 --> 01:17:15.488
really advanced but technically there is

01:17:15.529 --> 01:17:17.789
not perfect randomness and for the record

01:17:17.810 --> 01:17:18.970
this is also true of coin flips if

01:17:19.011 --> 01:17:20.912
you flip a coin a thousand times

01:17:20.971 --> 01:17:23.753
technically you will statistically have

01:17:23.833 --> 01:17:25.855
more of heads than tails or vice versa

01:17:26.636 --> 01:17:27.095
So anyways,

01:17:27.555 --> 01:17:29.697
researchers at ETH Zurich basically say

01:17:29.737 --> 01:17:32.278
they figured it out with quantum physics.

01:17:32.497 --> 01:17:34.338
And there's a pretty good breakdown here

01:17:34.359 --> 01:17:35.340
in the article that I'm not going to

01:17:35.380 --> 01:17:35.760
go through.

01:17:36.199 --> 01:17:37.439
But basically, they made this like,

01:17:37.600 --> 01:17:40.121
thirty meter long tunnel and they had

01:17:40.261 --> 01:17:42.061
superconducting chips on either side.

01:17:42.943 --> 01:17:44.783
And they something about quantum

01:17:44.823 --> 01:17:45.484
entanglement.

01:17:45.703 --> 01:17:48.284
And they were basically it kind of goes

01:17:48.305 --> 01:17:49.465
over my head about how it works.

01:17:49.505 --> 01:17:51.525
But they are very positive that they have

01:17:51.546 --> 01:17:53.766
made actual true randomness.

01:17:53.926 --> 01:17:55.568
And if you were to

01:17:56.787 --> 01:17:57.788
Jonah and I were talking about this

01:17:57.809 --> 01:17:58.488
earlier, and Jonah's like,

01:17:58.509 --> 01:17:59.488
how would you even test that?

01:18:00.029 --> 01:18:00.510
And I was like, well,

01:18:00.529 --> 01:18:01.810
you just flip a coin, basically.

01:18:01.829 --> 01:18:03.150
You tell it to pick between zero and

01:18:03.310 --> 01:18:04.871
one, and if it is perfectly random,

01:18:05.292 --> 01:18:05.891
if they do that,

01:18:05.952 --> 01:18:07.311
we'll say like a million times,

01:18:07.351 --> 01:18:08.993
which a computer can do very quickly and

01:18:09.012 --> 01:18:09.512
very easily.

01:18:09.932 --> 01:18:10.953
If you do that a million times,

01:18:10.974 --> 01:18:11.753
then you analyze it.

01:18:12.094 --> 01:18:13.755
You should have an almost perfect,

01:18:13.895 --> 01:18:14.895
if not totally perfect,

01:18:14.914 --> 01:18:15.676
like within a certain,

01:18:16.115 --> 01:18:17.956
I think it's like .

01:18:16.855 --> 01:18:18.256
five percent is the accepted

01:18:19.149 --> 01:18:20.811
I took a statistics class once in college

01:18:20.832 --> 01:18:22.073
and I barely remember it anymore.

01:18:22.432 --> 01:18:23.333
But in theory,

01:18:23.373 --> 01:18:26.336
you should have that almost fifty-fifty

01:18:26.355 --> 01:18:26.896
split.

01:18:26.917 --> 01:18:28.717
It might not be exact because, again,

01:18:28.738 --> 01:18:29.279
it's random,

01:18:29.618 --> 01:18:30.720
there's chance in the universe,

01:18:30.760 --> 01:18:33.422
but it would be statistically

01:18:33.523 --> 01:18:34.222
insignificant,

01:18:34.984 --> 01:18:35.845
the difference between the two.

01:18:38.068 --> 01:18:39.109
Um, yeah.

01:18:39.389 --> 01:18:40.310
And the reason I wanted to share this

01:18:40.329 --> 01:18:41.990
is because if that's true, that's really,

01:18:42.030 --> 01:18:42.612
really exciting.

01:18:42.631 --> 01:18:42.671
Uh,

01:18:43.652 --> 01:18:45.372
I am assuming that this research probably

01:18:45.413 --> 01:18:47.715
still needs to be peer reviewed and tested

01:18:47.814 --> 01:18:48.515
and everything,

01:18:49.015 --> 01:18:50.796
but ETH Zurich is very well known.

01:18:50.997 --> 01:18:51.877
They are very reputable.

01:18:52.297 --> 01:18:52.519
Um,

01:18:52.578 --> 01:18:53.538
I don't think they would just make

01:18:53.578 --> 01:18:53.800
something.

01:18:54.100 --> 01:18:55.301
They might be wrong for the record.

01:18:55.320 --> 01:18:56.541
They might go under peer review and they

01:18:56.560 --> 01:18:57.761
might find out like, Hey, you know,

01:18:57.822 --> 01:18:59.524
you overlook this or you didn't do this

01:18:59.583 --> 01:18:59.804
right.

01:19:00.323 --> 01:19:01.984
But I don't think they're just like trying

01:19:02.005 --> 01:19:03.485
to sell snake oil or make something up.

01:19:03.806 --> 01:19:05.207
Um, I think they genuinely believe this.

01:19:05.887 --> 01:19:06.588
And if true,

01:19:07.189 --> 01:19:08.791
they pointed out here in this article,

01:19:08.810 --> 01:19:10.073
for those who are maybe listening on

01:19:10.132 --> 01:19:11.875
audio, it says, in the long term,

01:19:11.914 --> 01:19:13.256
this work could play a similar role in

01:19:13.296 --> 01:19:15.059
digital security as atomic clocks do for

01:19:15.118 --> 01:19:15.698
timekeeping.

01:19:16.159 --> 01:19:18.743
And atomic clocks, they're useful for,

01:19:18.762 --> 01:19:19.484
I mean,

01:19:19.503 --> 01:19:21.185
like GPS is the first application that

01:19:21.204 --> 01:19:21.645
comes to mind.

01:19:21.685 --> 01:19:22.627
I know there's a bunch of others that

01:19:22.646 --> 01:19:23.087
I'm forgetting,

01:19:23.127 --> 01:19:24.949
but like atomic clocks are,

01:19:25.569 --> 01:19:27.631
extremely extremely extremely accurate

01:19:27.712 --> 01:19:31.494
clocks and they are crucial for a wide

01:19:31.555 --> 01:19:33.817
range of applications that power our

01:19:33.856 --> 01:19:36.139
modern world and so this could be a

01:19:36.238 --> 01:19:39.782
huge step forward in cryptography if that

01:19:39.823 --> 01:19:43.024
is true so yeah like I said kind

01:19:43.045 --> 01:19:44.345
of a short one I don't think we

01:19:44.386 --> 01:19:46.868
have too much to add but that is

01:19:47.248 --> 01:19:49.511
that is that story and if we hear

01:19:49.530 --> 01:19:50.712
anything exciting about it we'll keep you

01:19:50.752 --> 01:19:52.393
updated but I just thought that was super

01:19:52.412 --> 01:19:53.094
cool and wanted to share

01:19:55.298 --> 01:19:55.819
Cool.

01:19:56.038 --> 01:19:56.199
Yeah,

01:19:56.239 --> 01:19:57.380
I don't really have too much to add

01:19:57.399 --> 01:19:57.801
on that one,

01:19:57.820 --> 01:19:58.780
but I just want to highlight,

01:19:58.841 --> 01:20:00.042
I think we might have missed it,

01:20:00.101 --> 01:20:03.123
but Sod the Sword just donated two pounds.

01:20:03.144 --> 01:20:06.286
So thank you very much again.

01:20:06.305 --> 01:20:07.167
That is very kind.

01:20:08.688 --> 01:20:08.927
But yeah,

01:20:08.948 --> 01:20:10.748
I don't really have anything to add on

01:20:10.769 --> 01:20:11.189
that one.

01:20:13.652 --> 01:20:15.853
Should we maybe dive into some forum

01:20:15.893 --> 01:20:16.813
updates?

01:20:16.953 --> 01:20:18.213
Yeah, yeah.

01:20:18.373 --> 01:20:21.114
If there's nothing to add to the

01:20:21.135 --> 01:20:21.935
randomness story,

01:20:21.975 --> 01:20:23.496
then we'll check the forum.

01:20:24.195 --> 01:20:25.037
And after the forum,

01:20:25.056 --> 01:20:26.296
we'll actually be taking questions.

01:20:26.716 --> 01:20:27.677
The Q&A will start.

01:20:27.717 --> 01:20:29.918
So if you have not asked any questions

01:20:29.939 --> 01:20:30.519
yet in the chat,

01:20:30.538 --> 01:20:31.918
go ahead and drop those in the chat,

01:20:32.019 --> 01:20:33.020
and we'll get to those in just a

01:20:33.100 --> 01:20:33.439
minute.

01:20:34.239 --> 01:20:34.761
But for now,

01:20:34.820 --> 01:20:36.442
the community forum always has a lot of

01:20:36.481 --> 01:20:36.942
activity.

01:20:36.981 --> 01:20:38.542
But here's a few of this week's most

01:20:38.682 --> 01:20:39.764
interesting discussions.

01:20:39.863 --> 01:20:40.845
And the first one we're going to talk

01:20:40.885 --> 01:20:42.865
about is actually a discussion about an

01:20:42.966 --> 01:20:45.447
article from Ars Technica that says

01:20:45.487 --> 01:20:47.349
websites have a new way to spy on

01:20:47.408 --> 01:20:50.490
visitors, analyzing their SSD activity.

01:20:50.511 --> 01:20:52.051
I'm going to share this article real quick

01:20:52.091 --> 01:20:53.972
for a second, just so viewers can see.

01:20:55.993 --> 01:20:58.155
So this is a side channel attack that

01:20:59.275 --> 01:21:00.516
in response to one of my frustrations

01:21:00.556 --> 01:21:01.057
earlier today,

01:21:02.297 --> 01:21:03.679
we actually know this can be done

01:21:03.719 --> 01:21:04.100
remotely.

01:21:04.220 --> 01:21:05.801
This does not require physical access,

01:21:05.820 --> 01:21:07.242
but it's basically a way to fingerprint

01:21:07.261 --> 01:21:07.862
your computer.

01:21:08.382 --> 01:21:09.944
And the way it works is when you

01:21:09.963 --> 01:21:10.684
go to a website,

01:21:11.484 --> 01:21:13.786
there's something called the Origin

01:21:13.826 --> 01:21:15.807
Private File System, OPFS,

01:21:15.988 --> 01:21:17.929
which is an allocated storage space that's

01:21:17.969 --> 01:21:19.831
reserved for a specific site to run code

01:21:19.871 --> 01:21:21.311
needed to complete a given task.

01:21:22.171 --> 01:21:23.453
websites can create one with no

01:21:23.554 --> 01:21:24.814
interaction required by the visitor.

01:21:24.835 --> 01:21:26.356
So it's basically like a temporary little

01:21:26.377 --> 01:21:29.020
sandbox where a website can maybe download

01:21:29.039 --> 01:21:30.501
a cache or whatever it needs to do

01:21:30.581 --> 01:21:31.221
to function.

01:21:31.882 --> 01:21:33.104
And basically,

01:21:33.243 --> 01:21:36.367
if the attacker is able to continuously

01:21:36.447 --> 01:21:38.189
measure the performance of the SSD,

01:21:38.569 --> 01:21:42.012
and especially the article says if you

01:21:42.033 --> 01:21:43.014
have multiple tabs open,

01:21:43.435 --> 01:21:44.256
it's almost like a

01:21:45.728 --> 01:21:46.427
it's almost like the way that

01:21:46.467 --> 01:21:47.748
fingerprinting works across the web,

01:21:47.788 --> 01:21:47.948
right?

01:21:47.988 --> 01:21:49.810
Like if you go to Google, hypothetically,

01:21:49.850 --> 01:21:51.251
let's pretend, if you go to just Google,

01:21:51.391 --> 01:21:52.671
Google doesn't really know who you are.

01:21:53.033 --> 01:21:54.573
But if you go to like five other

01:21:54.594 --> 01:21:56.335
websites that all have Google Analytics,

01:21:56.635 --> 01:21:58.095
Google can track you across all those

01:21:58.115 --> 01:21:58.796
different websites.

01:21:59.216 --> 01:22:00.936
And it's kind of basically the same thing,

01:22:00.976 --> 01:22:04.038
but it's working via that OPFS on your

01:22:04.219 --> 01:22:04.420
SSD.

01:22:05.307 --> 01:22:07.029
And they do note that there are some

01:22:07.048 --> 01:22:07.569
limitations.

01:22:07.588 --> 01:22:08.048
So first of all,

01:22:08.069 --> 01:22:09.970
the OPS file must be extremely large,

01:22:10.109 --> 01:22:11.470
likely a gigabyte or more.

01:22:12.551 --> 01:22:13.951
I don't know how big the OPFS is

01:22:14.030 --> 01:22:14.591
on average.

01:22:15.150 --> 01:22:16.372
To me, that doesn't sound that big,

01:22:16.431 --> 01:22:17.231
but maybe it is.

01:22:19.393 --> 01:22:20.993
That requirement means the attack at scale

01:22:21.012 --> 01:22:22.854
would inevitably be detected by many

01:22:22.953 --> 01:22:23.234
users.

01:22:23.654 --> 01:22:25.314
They also say the file must be stored

01:22:25.375 --> 01:22:26.956
on the same SSD the visitor is using,

01:22:26.975 --> 01:22:28.775
which I think for most people is probably

01:22:28.815 --> 01:22:28.996
true.

01:22:29.036 --> 01:22:30.216
I think most of us don't have multiple

01:22:30.436 --> 01:22:30.756
SSDs.

01:22:30.896 --> 01:22:32.277
Usually if a computer has multiple slots,

01:22:32.296 --> 01:22:33.518
you have like one SSD and a hard

01:22:33.537 --> 01:22:33.837
drive,

01:22:33.917 --> 01:22:34.057
but

01:22:36.324 --> 01:22:38.909
they also say that the best way to

01:22:38.949 --> 01:22:40.372
prevent this attack is simply to close

01:22:40.412 --> 01:22:41.694
tabs as soon as you're done which I'll

01:22:41.713 --> 01:22:44.118
comment on that in a second and

01:22:45.315 --> 01:22:45.975
What else was it?

01:22:46.015 --> 01:22:47.677
More savvy users can monitor the creation

01:22:47.698 --> 01:22:49.519
and size of the OPS files allocated by

01:22:49.599 --> 01:22:50.319
unknown websites.

01:22:51.000 --> 01:22:55.502
And they did say that the researchers did

01:22:55.542 --> 01:22:57.144
propose ways for browser makers to shut

01:22:57.184 --> 01:22:57.984
down the side channels.

01:22:58.024 --> 01:22:59.046
So we'll see if any of them roll

01:22:59.086 --> 01:22:59.525
that out.

01:23:00.266 --> 01:23:01.287
And here it is.

01:23:01.306 --> 01:23:02.768
The last thing they said that they

01:23:02.807 --> 01:23:04.328
performed the full attack on an M two

01:23:04.349 --> 01:23:05.430
Mac on Linux.

01:23:05.470 --> 01:23:07.332
They showed that the underlying primitive

01:23:07.971 --> 01:23:08.332
works,

01:23:08.391 --> 01:23:10.052
but didn't run the full attack and they

01:23:10.073 --> 01:23:11.154
did not test windows.

01:23:11.574 --> 01:23:13.395
So it's not as bad on Linux,

01:23:13.456 --> 01:23:14.497
but it does still work.

01:23:15.698 --> 01:23:16.359
I'm just going to go out on a

01:23:16.399 --> 01:23:18.323
limb and say it probably works great on

01:23:18.382 --> 01:23:19.024
Windows.

01:23:19.364 --> 01:23:22.270
But yeah.

01:23:23.113 --> 01:23:24.636
Did you get a chance to read this

01:23:24.676 --> 01:23:25.618
article by any chance, Jordan?

01:23:25.637 --> 01:23:26.640
Do you have any thoughts on this one?

01:23:28.917 --> 01:23:31.619
I did see some interesting takes.

01:23:31.699 --> 01:23:33.261
Like we are kind of focusing a little

01:23:33.282 --> 01:23:34.222
bit here on the forum,

01:23:34.262 --> 01:23:36.286
but I did see some interesting people.

01:23:36.345 --> 01:23:38.268
People had some interesting thoughts on

01:23:38.609 --> 01:23:39.569
our community forum,

01:23:39.609 --> 01:23:41.452
which I guess I'm not going to highlight

01:23:41.471 --> 01:23:43.154
directly because we want to respect

01:23:43.213 --> 01:23:45.197
everyone's privacy there.

01:23:45.577 --> 01:23:45.898
Don't want to

01:23:46.465 --> 01:23:48.766
keep your information stored in this video

01:23:48.806 --> 01:23:49.228
forever.

01:23:49.368 --> 01:23:50.488
That would be kind of awful.

01:23:51.449 --> 01:23:53.470
But I will just kind of highlight some

01:23:54.332 --> 01:23:55.552
things that people were saying.

01:23:56.373 --> 01:23:58.555
Someone was saying that someone said

01:23:58.836 --> 01:24:01.538
laughs maniacally from inside a disposable

01:24:01.578 --> 01:24:02.378
virtual machine.

01:24:02.720 --> 01:24:03.000
I mean,

01:24:03.560 --> 01:24:05.162
that's definitely one way to protect

01:24:05.202 --> 01:24:06.063
against this, I guess.

01:24:06.802 --> 01:24:08.204
Maybe not everyone is doing that,

01:24:08.265 --> 01:24:09.905
but I think, you know,

01:24:09.966 --> 01:24:11.087
if using cubes OS, that's,

01:24:12.007 --> 01:24:13.930
definitely a plus for cubes OS I think

01:24:14.029 --> 01:24:16.152
also another thing with this is I feel

01:24:16.172 --> 01:24:18.875
like it's a little bit dependent on like

01:24:18.895 --> 01:24:20.657
your internet connection speed as well

01:24:20.737 --> 01:24:24.862
like one gigabyte file um is kind of

01:24:24.902 --> 01:24:28.985
big I think you know your if your

01:24:29.086 --> 01:24:30.667
internet connection is like you know four

01:24:30.707 --> 01:24:33.291
G or five G it's probably not gonna

01:24:33.310 --> 01:24:34.171
be uh

01:24:35.814 --> 01:24:37.234
downloaded particularly fast,

01:24:38.515 --> 01:24:40.195
especially if you have like slow internet

01:24:40.216 --> 01:24:40.576
connection,

01:24:40.595 --> 01:24:42.056
like a hundred megabits per second or

01:24:42.077 --> 01:24:43.257
fifty megabits per second.

01:24:43.278 --> 01:24:44.838
It's going to be quite a it's going

01:24:44.859 --> 01:24:45.819
to take quite a while.

01:24:46.279 --> 01:24:47.920
But I also think a lot of browsers

01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:49.780
actually kind of have protections against

01:24:49.801 --> 01:24:49.940
this,

01:24:50.001 --> 01:24:51.921
especially the ones that we recommend.

01:24:52.462 --> 01:24:55.564
For example, like one common issue,

01:24:55.904 --> 01:24:57.204
I'm going to say issue in quotes,

01:24:57.265 --> 01:24:58.845
but it's not really an issue.

01:24:58.865 --> 01:25:00.287
It's just something that we notice is

01:25:01.939 --> 01:25:02.619
With StreamYard,

01:25:02.640 --> 01:25:04.404
the software we use to do these live

01:25:04.425 --> 01:25:04.865
streams,

01:25:05.627 --> 01:25:08.054
a lot of times we'll have a local

01:25:08.094 --> 01:25:09.115
recording as well as

01:25:09.618 --> 01:25:11.900
this recording of on YouTube and stuff.

01:25:12.041 --> 01:25:14.502
And basically that is done through saving

01:25:14.903 --> 01:25:17.805
data into your browser storage API.

01:25:19.386 --> 01:25:19.766
And, you know,

01:25:19.807 --> 01:25:21.408
if you're using stuff like Brave or

01:25:21.448 --> 01:25:23.671
Firefox with all the settings cranked up,

01:25:24.190 --> 01:25:25.993
a lot of times it complains about not

01:25:26.033 --> 01:25:29.375
enough storage being allowed, right?

01:25:29.416 --> 01:25:31.716
So I think, you know,

01:25:32.694 --> 01:25:34.755
This could potentially protect a little

01:25:34.795 --> 01:25:35.456
bit against this.

01:25:35.515 --> 01:25:37.817
I think having something that just has

01:25:38.197 --> 01:25:40.478
absolutely no limits on anything like

01:25:40.717 --> 01:25:42.658
Google Chrome or like, you know,

01:25:42.680 --> 01:25:43.920
these browsers that don't really care

01:25:43.939 --> 01:25:44.680
about this sort of stuff,

01:25:44.701 --> 01:25:46.981
they kind of just allow anything.

01:25:47.561 --> 01:25:49.622
It's definitely going to cause more

01:25:49.722 --> 01:25:50.644
issues, I would say,

01:25:51.503 --> 01:25:52.465
and allow this to happen.

01:25:54.417 --> 01:25:56.139
There's also some people saying you can

01:25:56.198 --> 01:25:59.420
enable specific settings in Firefox.

01:25:59.701 --> 01:26:00.701
I think this person was saying

01:26:00.961 --> 01:26:05.023
dom.fs.enabled to false protects against

01:26:05.063 --> 01:26:05.403
this.

01:26:07.323 --> 01:26:09.664
And also I think one gigabyte straight

01:26:09.704 --> 01:26:10.525
into your browser,

01:26:10.565 --> 01:26:12.707
people are saying that that would crash a

01:26:12.747 --> 01:26:13.947
lot of websites for people.

01:26:16.243 --> 01:26:16.703
But yeah,

01:26:16.764 --> 01:26:19.668
I think this is definitely a concern for

01:26:19.708 --> 01:26:21.551
the average person who's just using

01:26:21.612 --> 01:26:22.253
Chrome.

01:26:22.354 --> 01:26:24.717
And I think that's definitely a valid

01:26:24.738 --> 01:26:25.538
thing to talk about.

01:26:28.246 --> 01:26:30.307
Also, someone was saying that, you know,

01:26:30.728 --> 01:26:33.451
they recommend closing tabs as soon as

01:26:33.470 --> 01:26:34.212
you're done with them.

01:26:34.952 --> 01:26:37.213
I think that is a little bit naive.

01:26:37.854 --> 01:26:39.395
I don't know how you use your browser,

01:26:39.435 --> 01:26:40.778
but generally,

01:26:40.797 --> 01:26:42.179
if you're like researching a topic,

01:26:42.198 --> 01:26:42.979
you have tabs,

01:26:43.239 --> 01:26:44.900
a lot of tabs open because you're browsing

01:26:44.940 --> 01:26:46.483
and stuff and looking at things.

01:26:48.384 --> 01:26:49.765
So I think anyone doing like serious

01:26:49.805 --> 01:26:49.985
research

01:26:51.368 --> 01:26:53.168
research in their browser is going to have

01:26:53.248 --> 01:26:54.630
more than one tab open.

01:26:55.150 --> 01:26:56.952
It's a little bit ridiculous to suggest

01:26:57.011 --> 01:26:57.292
that.

01:26:57.452 --> 01:27:00.234
I think people will just have tab,

01:27:00.274 --> 01:27:01.654
like I'm looking at my screen right now,

01:27:01.675 --> 01:27:02.355
I've probably got like

01:27:03.578 --> 01:27:07.121
like, you know,

01:27:07.161 --> 01:27:09.623
we've got to have things open.

01:27:10.583 --> 01:27:12.445
I think that's not the best advice.

01:27:13.527 --> 01:27:14.847
I think the better advice here would just

01:27:14.887 --> 01:27:17.350
be to use these browsers that have

01:27:17.490 --> 01:27:19.372
actually sane defaults when it comes to

01:27:19.391 --> 01:27:20.594
these APIs.

01:27:21.213 --> 01:27:24.856
And I think it also is good to

01:27:24.917 --> 01:27:25.257
assume

01:27:26.658 --> 01:27:29.661
Any API that a browser has can be

01:27:29.740 --> 01:27:31.582
exploited to fingerprint you.

01:27:31.603 --> 01:27:35.707
We kept seeing this with audio signatures

01:27:35.948 --> 01:27:37.349
through the audio API.

01:27:37.810 --> 01:27:39.230
We saw this with WebGL.

01:27:39.532 --> 01:27:41.573
It's basically any API can be used to

01:27:41.613 --> 01:27:42.094
track you.

01:27:43.496 --> 01:27:45.858
I would just assume that any API is

01:27:45.898 --> 01:27:46.958
going to be used to track you.

01:27:47.019 --> 01:27:48.381
And I think disabling them is

01:27:50.597 --> 01:27:51.859
generally the better way to go.

01:27:52.139 --> 01:27:54.542
I do wonder how this would work in

01:27:54.641 --> 01:27:56.203
Tor browser or Molvad browser,

01:27:56.323 --> 01:27:58.385
but that's not something that I have time

01:27:58.425 --> 01:28:00.707
to test personally.

01:28:00.728 --> 01:28:02.288
Did you have any extra thoughts, Nate?

01:28:03.307 --> 01:28:06.048
Yeah, no, um, I think the, uh,

01:28:06.069 --> 01:28:07.069
I'm with you for the record.

01:28:07.109 --> 01:28:07.550
Like, yeah,

01:28:07.609 --> 01:28:08.789
especially when I'm researching for a

01:28:08.810 --> 01:28:11.251
video, I've got like a dozen tabs open,

01:28:11.331 --> 01:28:12.792
but I also know it's kind of a

01:28:12.851 --> 01:28:14.912
meme that a lot of people, uh,

01:28:14.972 --> 01:28:16.733
especially a lot of mainstream users just

01:28:16.814 --> 01:28:19.435
do infinitely leave their tabs open.

01:28:19.774 --> 01:28:22.176
And it's like, it's literally a meme.

01:28:22.235 --> 01:28:23.935
I've seen jokes about it, about like,

01:28:23.975 --> 01:28:25.377
it's okay to close your, your tabs.

01:28:25.417 --> 01:28:26.938
Now you're never going to reopen them or

01:28:27.118 --> 01:28:27.677
like, um,

01:28:29.342 --> 01:28:30.923
I don't know that I've ever dated someone

01:28:30.963 --> 01:28:31.783
who didn't have, like,

01:28:31.823 --> 01:28:35.425
ten million Chrome tabs open or anything.

01:28:36.666 --> 01:28:37.746
Even, not to throw under the bus,

01:28:37.786 --> 01:28:38.246
even my wife,

01:28:38.286 --> 01:28:39.466
every once in a blue moon, I'll, like,

01:28:39.485 --> 01:28:41.207
borrow her phone for a second for whatever

01:28:41.226 --> 01:28:43.307
reason, you know, with telling her.

01:28:43.427 --> 01:28:44.507
And, like, I'll open Brave,

01:28:44.568 --> 01:28:45.609
and I'm just like, oh, God,

01:28:45.828 --> 01:28:46.809
do not close Brave.

01:28:46.889 --> 01:28:47.969
You'll lose all her tabs,

01:28:47.988 --> 01:28:48.970
and she'll be so pissed.

01:28:49.850 --> 01:28:51.730
So, but, yeah, I think...

01:28:52.770 --> 01:28:53.032
I don't know.

01:28:53.072 --> 01:28:54.938
That's probably just something I think

01:28:54.978 --> 01:28:56.542
people should do in general is just close

01:28:56.563 --> 01:28:57.927
their browsers once in a while because I

01:28:57.948 --> 01:28:58.890
think you need to do that for it

01:28:58.911 --> 01:28:59.431
to update.

01:29:00.635 --> 01:29:02.837
Um, no, the, the other,

01:29:02.856 --> 01:29:04.057
something interesting I wanted to point

01:29:04.158 --> 01:29:08.720
out is, um, somebody said, uh,

01:29:08.761 --> 01:29:09.041
here it is.

01:29:09.060 --> 01:29:09.282
They said,

01:29:09.362 --> 01:29:10.662
I enjoy the validation of blocking

01:29:10.703 --> 01:29:11.762
JavaScript by default.

01:29:12.644 --> 01:29:14.024
Um, because the, the article,

01:29:14.064 --> 01:29:15.405
I kind of brushed over it cause I

01:29:15.426 --> 01:29:16.747
was trying to keep the article portion,

01:29:17.148 --> 01:29:17.868
uh, short,

01:29:17.908 --> 01:29:20.010
but they mentioned that this is basically

01:29:20.050 --> 01:29:22.612
made possible by JavaScript and they use

01:29:22.631 --> 01:29:24.733
JavaScript to measure the IO interactions

01:29:24.792 --> 01:29:25.514
and stuff like that.

01:29:26.194 --> 01:29:29.114
And so it's kind of a double-edged sword

01:29:29.154 --> 01:29:29.975
because I,

01:29:30.034 --> 01:29:32.376
this is my personal conspiracy theory.

01:29:32.395 --> 01:29:33.296
I don't know how true this is.

01:29:33.855 --> 01:29:35.657
I think the vast majority of

01:29:36.197 --> 01:29:38.318
fingerprinting is enabled by JavaScript

01:29:38.358 --> 01:29:39.478
because you go to a website and it

01:29:39.497 --> 01:29:42.038
loads JavaScript and that's what measures

01:29:42.319 --> 01:29:42.979
how big is the screen.

01:29:42.998 --> 01:29:43.918
There's other ways to do it for the

01:29:43.939 --> 01:29:44.219
record.

01:29:44.319 --> 01:29:45.699
I know there is, but for some reason,

01:29:46.060 --> 01:29:47.900
companies don't do it.

01:29:48.060 --> 01:29:49.421
They measure how big is the screen and

01:29:49.440 --> 01:29:50.921
they measure all the other things that

01:29:50.942 --> 01:29:51.942
they use to fingerprint you.

01:29:52.822 --> 01:29:54.762
And I strongly suspect that blocking

01:29:54.783 --> 01:29:56.802
JavaScript probably blocks a lot of those,

01:29:56.842 --> 01:29:57.903
but then there's also a really good

01:29:57.943 --> 01:30:01.184
argument to be made for like standing out

01:30:01.304 --> 01:30:02.685
because there's not a lot of people out

01:30:02.704 --> 01:30:03.864
there blocking JavaScript,

01:30:03.904 --> 01:30:04.944
going to these websites.

01:30:05.145 --> 01:30:07.006
So it's almost like a double-edged sword.

01:30:07.046 --> 01:30:07.225
Like,

01:30:08.445 --> 01:30:09.947
I don't know what the trade-off is to

01:30:09.966 --> 01:30:10.567
be totally honest.

01:30:10.627 --> 01:30:10.806
Again,

01:30:10.907 --> 01:30:11.846
I don't have any proof of any of

01:30:11.867 --> 01:30:12.027
this.

01:30:12.046 --> 01:30:13.448
This is just my, my theory is like,

01:30:14.047 --> 01:30:16.167
would that be a case of like, yeah,

01:30:16.269 --> 01:30:18.208
but you'll block of the tracking.

01:30:18.248 --> 01:30:19.729
So it's worth it to do it anyways,

01:30:19.909 --> 01:30:21.550
or I don't really know, but.

01:30:22.101 --> 01:30:23.103
it is interesting for sure.

01:30:23.122 --> 01:30:23.342
And it's,

01:30:23.443 --> 01:30:24.564
it's something I think about a lot,

01:30:24.583 --> 01:30:25.024
to be honest,

01:30:25.043 --> 01:30:26.664
because there was a phase I went through

01:30:26.685 --> 01:30:28.105
where I was using you block origin to

01:30:28.166 --> 01:30:30.067
like block JavaScript by default and then

01:30:30.087 --> 01:30:31.967
slowly enable it on websites I used

01:30:32.287 --> 01:30:32.769
regularly.

01:30:32.788 --> 01:30:33.708
And honestly, it was actually,

01:30:34.529 --> 01:30:35.250
it was pretty awesome.

01:30:35.590 --> 01:30:37.832
Um, it was great, but it's,

01:30:37.912 --> 01:30:39.313
it's crazy how much JavaScript you can

01:30:39.353 --> 01:30:40.453
block and the website still works

01:30:40.514 --> 01:30:41.173
perfectly, but.

01:30:41.929 --> 01:30:44.390
Yeah, it's not without risks, I think.

01:30:44.409 --> 01:30:46.150
So it's just interesting.

01:30:46.252 --> 01:30:47.072
Interesting discussion.

01:30:47.612 --> 01:30:48.712
But yeah,

01:30:48.733 --> 01:30:49.753
I wanted to share this one because I've

01:30:49.774 --> 01:30:51.173
seen this article pop up a lot.

01:30:51.234 --> 01:30:52.335
A lot of people have been talking about

01:30:52.395 --> 01:30:52.494
it.

01:30:52.555 --> 01:30:55.277
So good to see what other people think.

01:30:56.385 --> 01:30:58.105
I think it's also like I feel like

01:30:58.126 --> 01:31:00.387
we should kind of push back on like

01:31:00.448 --> 01:31:03.048
a lot of this technology is like developed

01:31:03.109 --> 01:31:05.190
by Google because they control the

01:31:05.230 --> 01:31:06.832
Chromium project a lot.

01:31:06.891 --> 01:31:09.934
So, you know, I mean,

01:31:09.953 --> 01:31:11.295
it exists in Firefox too,

01:31:11.335 --> 01:31:14.015
but like a lot of this stuff is

01:31:14.115 --> 01:31:16.478
usually pushed by companies that don't

01:31:16.497 --> 01:31:19.199
really have most interest in protecting

01:31:19.220 --> 01:31:19.899
your privacy.

01:31:19.979 --> 01:31:20.701
So, you know,

01:31:20.860 --> 01:31:23.042
their concern is going to be functionality

01:31:23.082 --> 01:31:24.703
first, privacy second,

01:31:24.962 --> 01:31:25.764
and privacy

01:31:26.064 --> 01:31:27.663
Who would have thought that it's this

01:31:27.703 --> 01:31:29.284
technology that they added for

01:31:29.385 --> 01:31:32.024
functionality purposes can also be used to

01:31:32.085 --> 01:31:32.704
track people.

01:31:32.885 --> 01:31:36.365
It's like, anyway, you know,

01:31:36.926 --> 01:31:37.886
it is what it is, I guess.

01:31:37.945 --> 01:31:39.447
But I think more people using these

01:31:39.567 --> 01:31:43.247
privacy respecting browsers is going to

01:31:43.306 --> 01:31:48.488
reduce the identification of that, right?

01:31:48.529 --> 01:31:51.168
Like it's going to reduce the

01:31:52.288 --> 01:31:54.710
individuality of people not using that

01:31:54.750 --> 01:31:55.550
specific API.

01:31:58.247 --> 01:31:59.157
Yeah fair enough.

01:32:01.805 --> 01:32:03.605
Okay, so someone here is,

01:32:04.046 --> 01:32:07.887
it's P P P P P said,

01:32:08.628 --> 01:32:09.809
Brave has tab groups.

01:32:09.828 --> 01:32:11.489
You can group together, open tabs,

01:32:11.569 --> 01:32:12.250
close the browser,

01:32:12.289 --> 01:32:14.211
reopen the browser and all,

01:32:14.752 --> 01:32:16.573
and then open the tab group again to

01:32:16.592 --> 01:32:17.613
get all your tabs back.

01:32:17.872 --> 01:32:18.613
And on Firefox,

01:32:18.694 --> 01:32:19.533
I'm sure you can do this.

01:32:19.934 --> 01:32:21.494
Just bookmark all the current tabs

01:32:21.534 --> 01:32:23.296
temporarily to reopen again after closing

01:32:23.336 --> 01:32:23.756
the browser.

01:32:24.315 --> 01:32:25.737
I got to go though.

01:32:25.756 --> 01:32:26.077
Bye.

01:32:26.317 --> 01:32:26.478
Yeah.

01:32:26.497 --> 01:32:28.519
Thanks for sticking around and thanks for

01:32:28.578 --> 01:32:29.458
leaving the comment here.

01:32:29.599 --> 01:32:31.119
I guess I feel like Nate, you're,

01:32:31.560 --> 01:32:34.606
You're definitely a brave enjoyer,

01:32:34.627 --> 01:32:35.930
so maybe you can comment a little bit

01:32:35.949 --> 01:32:36.451
more on this.

01:32:38.006 --> 01:32:38.627
Enjoyer.

01:32:38.667 --> 01:32:39.007
Wow.

01:32:39.047 --> 01:32:40.087
Such a strong word.

01:32:41.649 --> 01:32:43.109
I have mixed feelings on all the browsers.

01:32:43.310 --> 01:32:44.930
That's a discussion for another day,

01:32:44.990 --> 01:32:47.931
but I don't know.

01:32:47.952 --> 01:32:48.412
No, it's, I mean,

01:32:48.512 --> 01:32:49.653
I don't really have that issue because

01:32:49.672 --> 01:32:50.793
yeah, I do like,

01:32:51.734 --> 01:32:53.375
if it is a site that I think

01:32:53.414 --> 01:32:54.095
I'm going to need again,

01:32:54.275 --> 01:32:56.016
I will note it down somewhere.

01:32:56.077 --> 01:32:57.778
I'll like note to self and signal or

01:32:57.797 --> 01:32:58.278
I'll put it.

01:32:58.738 --> 01:33:00.038
Usually I'm like doing research on a

01:33:00.078 --> 01:33:00.418
script.

01:33:00.458 --> 01:33:00.798
So I'll like,

01:33:00.838 --> 01:33:02.340
I'll literally just throw the link in the

01:33:02.359 --> 01:33:03.480
script and just be like, cool.

01:33:03.501 --> 01:33:04.560
Now it's there tomorrow when I go to

01:33:04.600 --> 01:33:05.061
work on this.

01:33:05.122 --> 01:33:05.662
But yeah,

01:33:06.262 --> 01:33:07.404
I'm more thinking of, again,

01:33:08.886 --> 01:33:11.469
the typical mainstream user.

01:33:12.170 --> 01:33:13.751
It's just the way they use the browser.

01:33:13.791 --> 01:33:14.511
I don't understand it.

01:33:14.551 --> 01:33:15.212
I've never understood it.

01:33:15.233 --> 01:33:16.475
I've never been this kind of person.

01:33:16.954 --> 01:33:19.297
They just leave it running continuously.

01:33:19.819 --> 01:33:21.039
A lot of people never shut down their

01:33:21.060 --> 01:33:22.041
computers, too.

01:33:22.100 --> 01:33:25.625
Or if they do, again, they have...

01:33:26.246 --> 01:33:27.207
Cause that is a setting in a lot

01:33:27.247 --> 01:33:27.846
of browsers too.

01:33:27.867 --> 01:33:28.287
It's like, oh,

01:33:28.346 --> 01:33:30.068
reopen my tabs when I open the browser.

01:33:30.127 --> 01:33:31.109
But it's just,

01:33:31.189 --> 01:33:32.689
it's something people do for some reason.

01:33:32.770 --> 01:33:34.229
I don't personally understand it.

01:33:34.250 --> 01:33:35.470
Like they won't use bookmarks.

01:33:35.850 --> 01:33:37.551
They won't use any kind of bookmarking

01:33:37.591 --> 01:33:38.632
system, which I know for the record,

01:33:38.993 --> 01:33:40.394
instead of note to selfing on signal,

01:33:40.453 --> 01:33:41.914
I could just bookmark the tab, right?

01:33:42.774 --> 01:33:43.414
like you were saying,

01:33:43.454 --> 01:33:44.475
but for some reason they don't.

01:33:44.576 --> 01:33:45.515
They just constantly,

01:33:45.555 --> 01:33:46.916
like they just open another tab and keep

01:33:46.956 --> 01:33:47.935
going and open another tab.

01:33:47.956 --> 01:33:48.917
And once they find a site, they're like,

01:33:48.976 --> 01:33:49.676
I'm going to want that later.

01:33:50.056 --> 01:33:51.277
Open another tab, open another.

01:33:51.337 --> 01:33:51.917
And I literally,

01:33:52.057 --> 01:33:53.818
I've run into people that literally have

01:33:53.858 --> 01:33:55.637
like dozens of tabs that they've

01:33:55.658 --> 01:33:57.418
accumulated over the years or the months.

01:33:57.458 --> 01:33:58.939
And it's like, I don't know.

01:33:58.998 --> 01:33:59.720
It blows my mind.

01:33:59.779 --> 01:34:00.520
Cause I'm, I'm,

01:34:01.560 --> 01:34:02.961
I've always been a little bit of a

01:34:03.001 --> 01:34:05.603
minimalist and I like keeping things neat

01:34:05.662 --> 01:34:06.844
and clean and it does come back to

01:34:06.884 --> 01:34:08.104
bite me sometimes you know when I'm like,

01:34:08.265 --> 01:34:08.345
Oh,

01:34:08.364 --> 01:34:09.445
what was that website and I don't have

01:34:09.485 --> 01:34:10.725
history enabled and I don't have any of

01:34:10.746 --> 01:34:12.507
that stuff and I have to go looking

01:34:12.528 --> 01:34:13.507
for it again but like,

01:34:13.528 --> 01:34:15.989
I don't know some people just don't use

01:34:16.010 --> 01:34:17.331
that kind of stuff like they don't rely

01:34:17.350 --> 01:34:18.692
on the history they don't rely on

01:34:18.792 --> 01:34:19.773
bookmarks they just

01:34:20.512 --> 01:34:22.073
open another tab and move on as if

01:34:22.134 --> 01:34:23.453
they've opened a fresh browser.

01:34:23.533 --> 01:34:24.335
And the next thing you know,

01:34:24.354 --> 01:34:27.475
they've literally got well over fifty tabs

01:34:27.895 --> 01:34:30.216
and they're definitely not going to

01:34:31.037 --> 01:34:31.697
bookmark those.

01:34:31.817 --> 01:34:33.057
It's just it's it's weird.

01:34:33.078 --> 01:34:36.979
I don't know.

01:34:36.998 --> 01:34:37.699
See, there's Anon.

01:34:38.100 --> 01:34:39.899
I use both and I have multiple tabs

01:34:39.939 --> 01:34:41.001
open on mobile and desktop.

01:34:41.341 --> 01:34:42.140
So see,

01:34:42.640 --> 01:34:43.742
Anon is one of the people I'm talking

01:34:43.782 --> 01:34:43.921
about.

01:34:45.386 --> 01:34:46.208
Yeah, I didn't get that.

01:34:46.328 --> 01:34:47.671
I always do like,

01:34:48.073 --> 01:34:49.456
at least on my personal devices,

01:34:49.536 --> 01:34:50.217
I always do like

01:34:52.141 --> 01:34:54.743
always like close every tab like exiting

01:34:54.823 --> 01:34:57.304
everything clearing all the data but I

01:34:57.323 --> 01:34:59.505
don't know for work I definitely don't

01:34:59.546 --> 01:35:01.206
though I just have everything just logged

01:35:01.246 --> 01:35:03.226
in all the time because I've got like

01:35:03.247 --> 01:35:04.887
a million websites I need to be logged

01:35:04.927 --> 01:35:07.509
into like for all the stuff that we

01:35:07.529 --> 01:35:09.949
do here it's like I've got so many

01:35:10.010 --> 01:35:13.152
logins um so I mean I think you

01:35:13.192 --> 01:35:15.033
have to obviously like weigh up the

01:35:16.761 --> 01:35:18.721
the benefits, right?

01:35:18.761 --> 01:35:19.863
Someone else said here,

01:35:21.023 --> 01:35:22.304
Trojan X-Ninety-Nine,

01:35:22.344 --> 01:35:24.265
Brave versus Firefox, which you suggest,

01:35:24.345 --> 01:35:24.805
by the way.

01:35:25.145 --> 01:35:26.005
I'm a Brave user.

01:35:26.405 --> 01:35:28.527
I mean, we recommend both privacy guides.

01:35:29.527 --> 01:35:30.828
I think it's really just down to, like,

01:35:30.967 --> 01:35:32.668
personal preference in a lot of cases.

01:35:32.748 --> 01:35:33.009
Like,

01:35:34.069 --> 01:35:36.911
if you need something that has better

01:35:36.930 --> 01:35:37.730
compatibility,

01:35:38.390 --> 01:35:39.912
I'd say Brave is usually the better

01:35:39.952 --> 01:35:40.332
choice.

01:35:41.592 --> 01:35:43.913
But if you care about, you know,

01:35:43.953 --> 01:35:45.175
the Chromium monopoly,

01:35:45.215 --> 01:35:45.614
if you want to

01:35:47.341 --> 01:35:48.381
if that's something you care about,

01:35:48.461 --> 01:35:50.402
I know that there's a lot of controversy

01:35:50.442 --> 01:35:52.942
around both Firefox and Brave.

01:35:53.061 --> 01:35:55.101
Like Firefox has made some really silly

01:35:55.141 --> 01:35:57.243
decisions in the past, same as Brave.

01:35:57.863 --> 01:35:59.542
Um, you know,

01:35:59.563 --> 01:36:01.082
their leadership has also made really

01:36:01.143 --> 01:36:02.323
silly decisions as well.

01:36:02.863 --> 01:36:04.163
People get, you know,

01:36:04.203 --> 01:36:06.484
have specific irks with each product.

01:36:06.583 --> 01:36:09.064
I think you kind of have to look

01:36:09.125 --> 01:36:10.625
at the evidence, look at what,

01:36:10.784 --> 01:36:13.626
what you think about each product and make

01:36:13.645 --> 01:36:14.805
a decision for yourself.

01:36:15.305 --> 01:36:15.386
Um,

01:36:16.957 --> 01:36:18.858
Personally, I'm more of a Firefox fan.

01:36:18.938 --> 01:36:20.677
I've just always used Firefox.

01:36:21.238 --> 01:36:23.479
Like, since, like, for ten years,

01:36:23.538 --> 01:36:24.219
more than ten years,

01:36:24.238 --> 01:36:25.279
I've been using Firefox.

01:36:25.298 --> 01:36:27.539
So it's, like, what I prefer.

01:36:27.659 --> 01:36:29.760
But I think it's the same thing with,

01:36:30.161 --> 01:36:32.520
like, Chrome, Chromium-based browsers.

01:36:32.541 --> 01:36:33.962
Like, if you've always used Chrome,

01:36:33.981 --> 01:36:35.702
I feel like Brave would be a pretty

01:36:36.282 --> 01:36:36.881
easy switch.

01:36:36.921 --> 01:36:37.082
Like,

01:36:37.122 --> 01:36:38.603
everything's just going to work the exact

01:36:38.643 --> 01:36:41.904
same and you're just going to get more

01:36:41.944 --> 01:36:42.944
privacy protection.

01:36:44.484 --> 01:36:45.984
So I think that's...

01:36:47.658 --> 01:36:48.418
It's definitely,

01:36:49.060 --> 01:36:50.640
I feel like Brave is definitely a bit

01:36:50.699 --> 01:36:55.421
more user-friendly and things are just set

01:36:55.462 --> 01:36:56.323
up by default.

01:36:56.662 --> 01:36:59.363
And that is one benefit that Brave has

01:36:59.384 --> 01:37:00.765
because I feel like with Firefox,

01:37:00.824 --> 01:37:02.286
you have to change quite a few settings

01:37:02.326 --> 01:37:05.087
to get it to a similar level.

01:37:07.188 --> 01:37:08.488
But again,

01:37:10.689 --> 01:37:12.649
it's definitely a personal preference

01:37:12.670 --> 01:37:12.810
thing.

01:37:12.850 --> 01:37:14.211
I don't think there's really...

01:37:15.810 --> 01:37:18.292
There's benefits and downsides of each,

01:37:18.372 --> 01:37:19.752
so you kind of have to just make

01:37:19.792 --> 01:37:21.154
up your opinion.

01:37:21.413 --> 01:37:23.475
Someone here said vanadium.

01:37:23.614 --> 01:37:24.815
I mean, I don't know.

01:37:24.876 --> 01:37:25.896
I think vanadium is...

01:37:27.007 --> 01:37:28.869
good from a security perspective,

01:37:28.949 --> 01:37:31.893
but I think you can't really compare it

01:37:31.912 --> 01:37:35.515
to Brave or Molvad browser or Firefox.

01:37:36.396 --> 01:37:37.818
It's not really in the same league.

01:37:39.180 --> 01:37:40.820
I think the Graphene OS developers know a

01:37:40.881 --> 01:37:42.682
lot about security.

01:37:43.083 --> 01:37:44.444
I'm a hundred percent certain that

01:37:44.545 --> 01:37:46.287
Vanadium is probably one of the most

01:37:46.306 --> 01:37:48.108
secure browsers, if not the most.

01:37:48.729 --> 01:37:51.190
um because you know they they utilize all

01:37:51.211 --> 01:37:54.173
this hardware security based features and

01:37:54.213 --> 01:37:56.555
stuff like that um but i think when

01:37:56.595 --> 01:37:59.018
it comes to privacy there's there's people

01:37:59.037 --> 01:38:00.500
that have been doing things like that for

01:38:00.539 --> 01:38:03.202
a lot longer like the tour project and

01:38:03.682 --> 01:38:07.246
uh i think generally they're gonna be the

01:38:07.286 --> 01:38:09.007
gold standard when it comes to that but

01:38:09.127 --> 01:38:09.387
i think

01:38:12.149 --> 01:38:14.451
Your Vanadium is just miles better than

01:38:14.530 --> 01:38:15.251
Google Chrome,

01:38:15.291 --> 01:38:17.351
and it's not making a bunch of

01:38:17.932 --> 01:38:18.432
connections.

01:38:18.493 --> 01:38:19.412
I think the main thing is,

01:38:19.934 --> 01:38:21.293
like we were talking about earlier,

01:38:22.095 --> 01:38:24.836
it's going to leak information about your

01:38:24.876 --> 01:38:25.296
system.

01:38:25.837 --> 01:38:26.596
It's going to make you more

01:38:26.617 --> 01:38:28.137
fingerprintable because it doesn't have

01:38:28.198 --> 01:38:30.920
those protections that Brave and Firefox

01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:31.239
have,

01:38:32.860 --> 01:38:34.862
which I'm sure that the GrapheneOS people

01:38:34.881 --> 01:38:35.841
are probably working on that.

01:38:35.862 --> 01:38:38.023
I'm sure that they're trying to improve

01:38:38.063 --> 01:38:38.162
it.

01:38:39.914 --> 01:38:42.296
I know they added some basic ad blocking

01:38:42.337 --> 01:38:43.078
capabilities,

01:38:43.158 --> 01:38:46.180
but I still think when you compare that

01:38:46.220 --> 01:38:47.862
to what Brave has,

01:38:48.203 --> 01:38:49.663
they're not really comparable in my

01:38:49.703 --> 01:38:51.064
opinion.

01:38:51.104 --> 01:38:53.488
Maybe that's a hot take, but... Well,

01:38:53.528 --> 01:38:55.048
and also the thing that I never hear

01:38:55.069 --> 01:38:56.751
anybody point out is Vanadium is graphene

01:38:56.850 --> 01:38:57.091
only.

01:38:57.470 --> 01:38:58.912
So it's like, cool,

01:38:58.932 --> 01:38:59.712
what are you going to use on your

01:38:59.733 --> 01:39:00.213
desktop?

01:39:01.314 --> 01:39:02.916
What are iPhone people supposed to use?

01:39:04.101 --> 01:39:04.721
other Android.

01:39:04.761 --> 01:39:05.983
And I know the obvious answer there is

01:39:06.002 --> 01:39:07.663
switch to graphene, but like, okay,

01:39:07.743 --> 01:39:10.385
when we have sympathy for people who maybe

01:39:10.425 --> 01:39:11.605
live in an area where they don't sell

01:39:11.645 --> 01:39:13.027
pixels or, you know, they,

01:39:14.027 --> 01:39:15.547
for whatever reason, like it just, it,

01:39:15.648 --> 01:39:16.649
it excludes a lot of people,

01:39:16.729 --> 01:39:17.429
but I mean,

01:39:17.448 --> 01:39:18.029
if you want to use it,

01:39:18.069 --> 01:39:18.510
go for it.

01:39:18.569 --> 01:39:18.750
I don't,

01:39:18.770 --> 01:39:20.110
I don't have anything against Vanadium,

01:39:20.171 --> 01:39:20.551
but it's,

01:39:21.333 --> 01:39:23.875
It's not always feasible for everyone,

01:39:23.895 --> 01:39:24.375
I would argue.

01:39:26.914 --> 01:39:30.456
Someone here said Firefox is more secure

01:39:30.475 --> 01:39:31.117
than Brave.

01:39:32.237 --> 01:39:33.117
I don't think so.

01:39:34.237 --> 01:39:38.538
I think Chromium has better sandboxing

01:39:38.578 --> 01:39:39.599
capabilities and...

01:39:40.612 --> 01:39:43.314
like it's just a more mature product,

01:39:43.394 --> 01:39:44.554
obviously, because, you know,

01:39:44.654 --> 01:39:47.435
it's basically the entire world basically

01:39:47.475 --> 01:39:48.435
runs on Chromium.

01:39:48.496 --> 01:39:49.356
So, you know,

01:39:49.896 --> 01:39:51.198
it kind of makes sense that it would

01:39:51.217 --> 01:39:52.538
be ahead in that aspect.

01:39:53.439 --> 01:39:54.739
But it does have better security

01:39:54.779 --> 01:39:56.240
protections than Firefox,

01:39:56.301 --> 01:39:57.742
especially on mobile as well.

01:40:00.323 --> 01:40:01.085
So yeah,

01:40:01.204 --> 01:40:03.427
just trying to offer some balance here.

01:40:03.467 --> 01:40:05.612
I don't think it does have the same

01:40:05.652 --> 01:40:06.393
level of security.

01:40:06.472 --> 01:40:08.195
I don't think Firefox is insecure.

01:40:08.275 --> 01:40:10.298
I just think that Chromium has more

01:40:10.338 --> 01:40:11.721
protections than Firefox.

01:40:13.154 --> 01:40:14.493
Yeah, I just want to back that up.

01:40:15.255 --> 01:40:18.155
I agree with you because I think for

01:40:18.195 --> 01:40:19.155
the average person,

01:40:19.775 --> 01:40:21.896
the security difference between the two is

01:40:21.936 --> 01:40:22.636
pretty negligible.

01:40:23.797 --> 01:40:25.078
I think that gets bandied around a lot.

01:40:25.097 --> 01:40:26.859
Like, oh, Chrome Sandbox is better.

01:40:26.878 --> 01:40:27.819
Chrome Sandbox is better.

01:40:27.878 --> 01:40:28.538
And it's like, okay,

01:40:28.599 --> 01:40:30.279
but now we're arguing about the

01:40:30.300 --> 01:40:32.279
performance difference between a Ferrari

01:40:32.300 --> 01:40:32.940
and a Maserati.

01:40:33.020 --> 01:40:33.581
I'm not a car guy,

01:40:33.600 --> 01:40:34.581
so maybe that was a bad example.

01:40:34.621 --> 01:40:36.542
But there's a certain point where it's

01:40:36.561 --> 01:40:36.681
like,

01:40:36.702 --> 01:40:38.021
does it really matter for the average

01:40:38.061 --> 01:40:38.402
person?

01:40:38.862 --> 01:40:39.523
Like, okay, sure.

01:40:39.542 --> 01:40:40.222
Maybe if you're like,

01:40:40.622 --> 01:40:42.264
a journalist or an activist, then yes,

01:40:42.304 --> 01:40:44.085
you need like the most secure thing

01:40:44.125 --> 01:40:44.626
possible.

01:40:44.746 --> 01:40:46.487
But I think again,

01:40:46.527 --> 01:40:47.868
for the average person with an average

01:40:47.908 --> 01:40:48.368
threat model,

01:40:48.569 --> 01:40:49.649
I don't think it makes a difference.

01:40:49.729 --> 01:40:50.670
I think kind of going back to what

01:40:50.689 --> 01:40:51.390
you were saying, it's like,

01:40:51.911 --> 01:40:53.032
I almost view browsers as like,

01:40:53.072 --> 01:40:54.372
which one fits your philosophy better?

01:40:54.472 --> 01:40:55.292
Like, yeah,

01:40:55.353 --> 01:40:57.395
brave is ready to go out of the

01:40:57.435 --> 01:40:57.795
box.

01:40:57.935 --> 01:40:58.815
It's very user-friendly.

01:40:58.855 --> 01:40:59.916
It has more compatibility.

01:41:00.396 --> 01:41:01.157
And for a lot of people,

01:41:01.216 --> 01:41:02.438
that's what they want is they want

01:41:02.478 --> 01:41:04.739
something that like is the same experience

01:41:04.800 --> 01:41:06.661
across all their devices and

01:41:06.680 --> 01:41:08.382
um which i don't think firefox can say

01:41:08.422 --> 01:41:10.265
yet it's got a built-in ad blocker they

01:41:10.284 --> 01:41:11.426
don't need to fuss with it they don't

01:41:11.445 --> 01:41:12.506
need to mess with a lot of things

01:41:12.527 --> 01:41:14.630
uh again i've said this in previous

01:41:14.670 --> 01:41:16.251
episodes in my experience most

01:41:16.412 --> 01:41:18.873
quote-unquote normies just ignore all the

01:41:18.894 --> 01:41:20.676
crypto stuff like they don't even notice

01:41:20.716 --> 01:41:21.617
it they don't even care

01:41:22.278 --> 01:41:23.938
Um, they don't even disable it again.

01:41:23.978 --> 01:41:24.978
They just don't even notice it.

01:41:24.997 --> 01:41:25.759
It's, it's so weird.

01:41:25.798 --> 01:41:26.498
It drives me crazy,

01:41:26.538 --> 01:41:27.458
but they don't seem to see it.

01:41:28.038 --> 01:41:29.899
But at the same time, like, you know,

01:41:30.078 --> 01:41:30.198
if,

01:41:30.319 --> 01:41:32.039
if you disagree with the Chrome monopoly,

01:41:32.100 --> 01:41:33.260
if you disagree with Brandon Ike,

01:41:33.779 --> 01:41:34.939
all of these kinds of things, then yeah,

01:41:34.960 --> 01:41:35.760
Firefox is great.

01:41:35.779 --> 01:41:36.801
You just have to be willing to roll

01:41:36.841 --> 01:41:37.801
up your sleeves and do a little bit

01:41:37.820 --> 01:41:38.480
of tinkering to,

01:41:38.621 --> 01:41:39.921
to get it up to the same level.

01:41:39.980 --> 01:41:41.702
So yeah, there's,

01:41:42.141 --> 01:41:43.261
I don't think there's really any right or

01:41:43.301 --> 01:41:44.902
wrong answers in the privacy or in the

01:41:44.962 --> 01:41:45.561
browser space.

01:41:45.622 --> 01:41:47.222
I think it's really about like what

01:41:47.262 --> 01:41:48.643
matches your threat model and your values

01:41:48.922 --> 01:41:49.563
personally.

01:41:49.603 --> 01:41:49.703
So.

01:41:50.560 --> 01:41:52.261
There's definitely some wrong answers,

01:41:52.341 --> 01:41:54.904
like Chrome or N. Okay, okay, fair, fair.

01:41:54.923 --> 01:41:55.904
But yeah.

01:41:56.145 --> 01:41:57.305
I guess I meant more like in the

01:41:57.326 --> 01:41:59.868
whole like Chrome or Brave versus Firefox

01:41:59.889 --> 01:42:01.409
debate or like some of the forks of

01:42:01.449 --> 01:42:01.890
Firefox,

01:42:01.909 --> 01:42:03.771
which even then there are some wrong

01:42:03.832 --> 01:42:04.813
answers there, I would argue.

01:42:04.872 --> 01:42:05.694
But overall,

01:42:06.173 --> 01:42:07.515
I think a lot of the privacy browsers,

01:42:07.534 --> 01:42:07.676
like,

01:42:07.935 --> 01:42:09.117
because especially people you ask them,

01:42:09.136 --> 01:42:09.917
you know, some people are like,

01:42:09.938 --> 01:42:10.618
I use Waterfox.

01:42:10.637 --> 01:42:12.300
And it's like, personally, I wouldn't.

01:42:12.739 --> 01:42:13.980
just because i don't see the point of

01:42:14.041 --> 01:42:14.980
using a fork of a fork of a

01:42:15.001 --> 01:42:16.582
fork of a fork i know i'm being

01:42:16.601 --> 01:42:17.662
a little dramatic when i say that but

01:42:18.002 --> 01:42:18.743
you know it's like but then when you

01:42:18.764 --> 01:42:19.764
talk to them it's like why do you

01:42:19.844 --> 01:42:21.125
use it they list like oh because it's

01:42:21.164 --> 01:42:22.565
you know the search engine does have ai

01:42:22.586 --> 01:42:23.627
and like this that and the other and

01:42:23.646 --> 01:42:25.087
it's like those are pretty good reasons

01:42:25.186 --> 01:42:26.608
like it's just it's so much personal

01:42:26.648 --> 01:42:27.969
preference and again as long as it fits

01:42:27.988 --> 01:42:29.109
your threat model and it's giving you the

01:42:29.130 --> 01:42:31.430
protection you need i i feel like it's

01:42:31.631 --> 01:42:35.052
it's kind of personal preference so yeah i

01:42:35.092 --> 01:42:36.194
don't know

01:42:38.198 --> 01:42:39.118
Didn't get too tribalistic.

01:42:39.198 --> 01:42:40.239
You can use both of them at the

01:42:40.260 --> 01:42:41.619
same time, by the way, everybody.

01:42:41.640 --> 01:42:43.820
You don't need to use just one.

01:42:43.881 --> 01:42:44.301
Not me,

01:42:44.341 --> 01:42:45.680
who had both of them open today on

01:42:45.720 --> 01:42:49.641
my computer.

01:42:49.742 --> 01:42:50.242
Real quick,

01:42:50.261 --> 01:42:52.823
before we move on to the other forum

01:42:52.842 --> 01:42:54.163
post, somebody here said,

01:42:54.304 --> 01:42:55.783
I use Trivalent on desktop.

01:42:55.923 --> 01:42:57.003
I hadn't heard of this one before.

01:42:57.024 --> 01:42:57.444
Apparently,

01:42:57.503 --> 01:43:00.904
it's a Chromium fork inspired by Vanadium

01:43:00.925 --> 01:43:02.466
that is designed to be used on

01:43:03.764 --> 01:43:05.944
desktop, specifically with SecureBlue,

01:43:06.145 --> 01:43:06.564
ideally.

01:43:06.625 --> 01:43:07.545
But that's pretty cool.

01:43:07.625 --> 01:43:08.685
I might look into that a little more.

01:43:08.805 --> 01:43:09.925
I don't think I'm going to switch to

01:43:09.965 --> 01:43:10.045
it,

01:43:10.085 --> 01:43:11.164
but I had not heard of this before,

01:43:11.185 --> 01:43:12.565
and I'm curious about it.

01:43:13.786 --> 01:43:15.166
Yeah, if people are interested in that,

01:43:15.185 --> 01:43:17.346
we did do a video on SecureBlue,

01:43:17.386 --> 01:43:18.627
and we did talk a little bit about

01:43:18.686 --> 01:43:19.947
Trivalent in that video.

01:43:21.907 --> 01:43:23.467
Maybe check that out if that's something

01:43:23.568 --> 01:43:24.807
that sounds interesting to you.

01:43:25.707 --> 01:43:28.708
I think the issue with Trivalent is it

01:43:28.868 --> 01:43:30.048
relies on a little bit of

01:43:30.904 --> 01:43:32.506
like stuff that is built into the

01:43:32.565 --> 01:43:33.326
operating system.

01:43:33.386 --> 01:43:36.768
So it's not currently very available on

01:43:36.887 --> 01:43:39.488
other Linux distros apart from secure

01:43:39.529 --> 01:43:40.829
blue, but you know,

01:43:40.850 --> 01:43:42.090
we recommend secure blue.

01:43:42.189 --> 01:43:43.890
So I would try that.

01:43:44.270 --> 01:43:44.610
Um,

01:43:44.690 --> 01:43:46.231
obviously I feel like that's another

01:43:46.271 --> 01:43:46.492
thing.

01:43:47.113 --> 01:43:48.853
Linux distro is a very personal

01:43:48.872 --> 01:43:49.354
preference.

01:43:49.453 --> 01:43:51.054
Probably not everyone is going to like

01:43:51.094 --> 01:43:51.814
secure blue.

01:43:51.975 --> 01:43:54.475
So again, another issue there,

01:43:54.716 --> 01:43:55.195
but I think,

01:43:55.355 --> 01:43:57.296
I don't think it's wrong to use trivalent

01:43:57.317 --> 01:43:58.198
or anything like that.

01:43:58.877 --> 01:44:00.658
Um, another person here said, uh,

01:44:02.125 --> 01:44:04.807
It's nyalexnj,

01:44:05.208 --> 01:44:06.810
what about DuckDuckGo browser?

01:44:06.990 --> 01:44:09.012
Bad slash good, brave user here.

01:44:09.554 --> 01:44:12.056
I think the main issue with DuckDuckGo

01:44:12.356 --> 01:44:13.479
browser is that it's

01:44:14.863 --> 01:44:17.585
It doesn't really offer anything else that

01:44:18.185 --> 01:44:19.765
existing options already have.

01:44:20.086 --> 01:44:22.306
I think it's better than Chrome.

01:44:22.346 --> 01:44:23.828
It's better than all of these ones that

01:44:23.847 --> 01:44:25.087
are collecting a bunch of your data.

01:44:25.929 --> 01:44:26.929
If you have to use it,

01:44:26.969 --> 01:44:28.489
then I would say it's fine.

01:44:29.510 --> 01:44:30.490
But again,

01:44:30.551 --> 01:44:32.291
I think Brave is going to offer better

01:44:32.310 --> 01:44:32.931
protections.

01:44:33.391 --> 01:44:34.612
Firefox is going to offer better

01:44:34.652 --> 01:44:35.233
protections.

01:44:36.172 --> 01:44:37.916
uh it as far as i know it

01:44:37.935 --> 01:44:41.341
doesn't do anything particularly unique

01:44:41.662 --> 01:44:43.645
it's just a browser it's a chromium based

01:44:43.685 --> 01:44:46.649
browser made by DuckDuckGo it has all the

01:44:46.689 --> 01:44:49.354
tracking that chrome has stripped out uh

01:44:50.768 --> 01:44:51.307
it's fine.

01:44:51.628 --> 01:44:54.069
Like there's a lot of options in the

01:44:54.130 --> 01:44:56.471
privacy space where it's like, it's fine.

01:44:56.692 --> 01:44:58.832
Like Vivaldi, it's like, it's fine.

01:44:58.912 --> 01:45:00.654
Like it's, you could do better.

01:45:00.795 --> 01:45:02.036
Like it's not Chrome.

01:45:02.076 --> 01:45:03.716
It's not collecting a lot of information

01:45:03.737 --> 01:45:04.978
about you.

01:45:05.018 --> 01:45:06.198
But you know,

01:45:06.217 --> 01:45:07.238
when it comes down to a lot of

01:45:07.259 --> 01:45:10.921
these very nerdy privacy protections that

01:45:10.962 --> 01:45:11.521
we talk about,

01:45:11.561 --> 01:45:14.144
like fingerprinting resistance and like

01:45:16.199 --> 01:45:18.381
all these tracking technologies that are

01:45:18.421 --> 01:45:18.902
on the web,

01:45:19.521 --> 01:45:20.622
you're going to be better off with

01:45:20.682 --> 01:45:23.244
something that is specifically designed

01:45:23.345 --> 01:45:25.305
with a lot of those protections built in

01:45:25.345 --> 01:45:25.907
by default.

01:45:32.354 --> 01:45:32.675
Yeah,

01:45:32.694 --> 01:45:34.497
I don't have much else to add to

01:45:34.537 --> 01:45:34.716
that.

01:45:34.737 --> 01:45:37.198
But we did have, actually,

01:45:37.238 --> 01:45:37.979
this is related,

01:45:38.238 --> 01:45:39.479
now that I think about it,

01:45:40.020 --> 01:45:40.461
in a way.

01:45:41.322 --> 01:45:43.042
We had one other forum post that I

01:45:43.063 --> 01:45:44.344
kind of wanted to shed some light on,

01:45:44.444 --> 01:45:45.864
which is, it says,

01:45:45.925 --> 01:45:48.186
best alternative search engine option that

01:45:48.266 --> 01:45:49.067
actually works.

01:45:49.207 --> 01:45:50.648
So if you guys didn't hear,

01:45:51.269 --> 01:45:52.770
which you might not have if you're not

01:45:52.789 --> 01:45:53.430
a Google user,

01:45:53.470 --> 01:45:55.051
which we don't encourage the use of Google

01:45:55.091 --> 01:45:55.332
Search,

01:45:56.193 --> 01:45:58.697
Google is basically going to be fully

01:45:58.778 --> 01:46:00.720
integrating AI into their search engine.

01:46:00.820 --> 01:46:03.305
And it's a little unclear exactly what

01:46:03.326 --> 01:46:03.846
that means,

01:46:03.926 --> 01:46:05.850
but the general consensus is basically

01:46:05.869 --> 01:46:06.251
that like,

01:46:08.301 --> 01:46:09.122
I don't know.

01:46:09.141 --> 01:46:10.221
This almost sounds hard to believe.

01:46:10.242 --> 01:46:11.403
And maybe I'm misunderstanding this,

01:46:11.443 --> 01:46:12.743
but it's almost like Google is going to

01:46:12.802 --> 01:46:14.903
stop searching you or serving you results.

01:46:15.503 --> 01:46:16.944
And instead the whole page is just going

01:46:16.963 --> 01:46:17.783
to be AI summary.

01:46:17.884 --> 01:46:19.083
And there will be, you know,

01:46:19.104 --> 01:46:19.684
of course I don't,

01:46:20.505 --> 01:46:22.005
it's weird that Google has defenders these

01:46:22.024 --> 01:46:22.225
days,

01:46:22.284 --> 01:46:24.466
but the defenders like to point out that

01:46:24.506 --> 01:46:24.865
like, Oh,

01:46:24.886 --> 01:46:26.265
but you can still like click this tab

01:46:26.286 --> 01:46:27.605
and navigate back to the results or

01:46:27.626 --> 01:46:27.905
whatever.

01:46:28.206 --> 01:46:29.447
But basically now when you go to Google

01:46:29.466 --> 01:46:30.606
search and you're like, I don't know,

01:46:31.186 --> 01:46:32.266
recipe for cheesecake,

01:46:32.606 --> 01:46:34.228
it's not going to serve up the AI

01:46:34.247 --> 01:46:36.507
summary and then two hundred and fifty ads

01:46:36.847 --> 01:46:38.969
and then a bunch of like SEO optimized

01:46:38.988 --> 01:46:40.829
like here's the best homemade recipe for

01:46:40.850 --> 01:46:42.229
cheesecake and real quick rant.

01:46:42.369 --> 01:46:43.470
You click on it and then it's like

01:46:44.109 --> 01:46:45.770
two thousand words of backstory.

01:46:45.791 --> 01:46:46.211
And it's like, dude,

01:46:46.230 --> 01:46:46.911
I just want a recipe.

01:46:46.930 --> 01:46:47.211
Shut up.

01:46:47.610 --> 01:46:48.331
So anyways,

01:46:48.390 --> 01:46:49.931
now when you go recipe for cheesecake,

01:46:49.971 --> 01:46:50.511
it's just going to go.

01:46:50.832 --> 01:46:52.412
Here's the best recipe for cheesecake and

01:46:52.453 --> 01:46:53.632
start spitting out a bunch of stuff that

01:46:53.653 --> 01:46:55.172
will probably include glue and rocks based

01:46:55.233 --> 01:46:56.634
on past AI summaries.

01:46:58.434 --> 01:47:01.615
So as a result, this person is asking,

01:47:02.315 --> 01:47:03.936
because I have not noticed this

01:47:03.976 --> 01:47:04.337
personally,

01:47:04.356 --> 01:47:06.158
but a lot of people do complain that

01:47:06.759 --> 01:47:09.199
when you move away from Google,

01:47:10.199 --> 01:47:11.541
a lot of people complain about the search

01:47:11.560 --> 01:47:11.940
results.

01:47:12.161 --> 01:47:13.021
And I think...

01:47:15.088 --> 01:47:15.809
Personal opinion,

01:47:15.929 --> 01:47:17.010
I think a lot of that is driven

01:47:17.050 --> 01:47:18.989
by the fact that Google search results are

01:47:19.130 --> 01:47:22.291
so quote unquote good because they're

01:47:22.331 --> 01:47:23.851
tracking you and they know what you're

01:47:23.872 --> 01:47:24.391
looking for.

01:47:24.452 --> 01:47:25.652
So like, for example,

01:47:25.692 --> 01:47:27.092
just now we were talking about Trivalent

01:47:27.573 --> 01:47:28.073
and I was like, oh,

01:47:28.092 --> 01:47:28.672
I haven't heard of that.

01:47:28.733 --> 01:47:29.713
And so I went and pulled up another

01:47:29.753 --> 01:47:30.554
tab and looked it up.

01:47:30.953 --> 01:47:32.453
And the first like three things that came

01:47:32.533 --> 01:47:34.515
up were like something about healthcare or

01:47:34.555 --> 01:47:34.835
something.

01:47:34.914 --> 01:47:35.475
I don't even remember.

01:47:35.876 --> 01:47:37.055
But I remember just thinking like, oh,

01:47:37.076 --> 01:47:38.576
that's not what I was looking for.

01:47:38.636 --> 01:47:39.596
Like maybe I need to...

01:47:40.887 --> 01:47:43.229
Maybe I need to type in trivalent browser.

01:47:43.329 --> 01:47:44.390
And then as I was scrolling,

01:47:44.430 --> 01:47:44.831
I found it.

01:47:44.871 --> 01:47:45.671
So I was like, oh, okay, cool.

01:47:45.692 --> 01:47:46.011
There it is.

01:47:46.493 --> 01:47:47.974
But Google, in theory,

01:47:48.073 --> 01:47:49.595
if I were a regular Google user and

01:47:49.635 --> 01:47:50.515
I typed in trivalent,

01:47:50.957 --> 01:47:52.037
that would probably be the first thing

01:47:52.057 --> 01:47:53.698
that pops up because Google is stalking me

01:47:53.798 --> 01:47:54.579
and knows that, oh,

01:47:54.600 --> 01:47:55.940
he's probably talking about a browser.

01:47:56.501 --> 01:47:58.162
So I don't know.

01:47:58.222 --> 01:48:01.005
But I think that's just something worth

01:48:01.085 --> 01:48:04.408
noting for people who are maybe frustrated

01:48:04.448 --> 01:48:06.850
with some of the other results when they

01:48:06.890 --> 01:48:08.470
leave Google is you have to...

01:48:09.774 --> 01:48:11.015
I've written about this in the past and

01:48:11.055 --> 01:48:12.576
I should probably revisit this topic is

01:48:12.595 --> 01:48:12.716
like,

01:48:12.756 --> 01:48:18.180
there's almost like two things can be

01:48:18.239 --> 01:48:18.520
real.

01:48:18.720 --> 01:48:19.081
I know that's,

01:48:19.180 --> 01:48:20.881
that's a hard thing that sometimes people

01:48:20.921 --> 01:48:22.182
struggle with, but like,

01:48:22.382 --> 01:48:25.744
I think there's a balance of like open

01:48:25.765 --> 01:48:27.246
source developers should do their best to

01:48:27.265 --> 01:48:28.407
build the best product possible.

01:48:28.466 --> 01:48:29.427
But I also think that

01:48:32.047 --> 01:48:33.989
companies aren't entirely wrong when they

01:48:34.029 --> 01:48:35.970
say that surveillance does make a more

01:48:36.030 --> 01:48:36.992
personalized product.

01:48:37.091 --> 01:48:38.372
And therefore I think we have to like

01:48:38.412 --> 01:48:40.095
temper expectations within reason.

01:48:40.654 --> 01:48:41.975
But when we move to some of these

01:48:42.015 --> 01:48:43.256
things, we have to accept that like, yeah,

01:48:43.277 --> 01:48:45.298
the search results may not be as good

01:48:45.359 --> 01:48:46.199
quote unquote,

01:48:46.239 --> 01:48:47.680
because they're not stalking you and they

01:48:47.720 --> 01:48:49.322
can't read your mind and they don't know

01:48:49.341 --> 01:48:51.304
that you're looking for a browser and not

01:48:51.344 --> 01:48:51.965
something else.

01:48:52.024 --> 01:48:53.185
And, um,

01:48:54.125 --> 01:48:54.685
But anyways, yeah,

01:48:54.725 --> 01:48:55.565
so definitely check this out,

01:48:55.586 --> 01:48:57.067
because we do have, real quick,

01:48:57.106 --> 01:48:57.386
I'll share it,

01:48:57.426 --> 01:48:59.127
and then I'll turn it over to you,

01:48:59.148 --> 01:49:00.168
Jordan, because I know I'm talking a lot.

01:49:00.189 --> 01:49:00.548
I'm sorry.

01:49:01.630 --> 01:49:03.551
But we do, oh, where'd it go?

01:49:03.730 --> 01:49:04.872
Oh, I forgot to add the tab.

01:49:04.912 --> 01:49:05.292
That would help.

01:49:05.332 --> 01:49:05.653
There we go.

01:49:06.353 --> 01:49:07.854
We do have a page about search engines,

01:49:07.934 --> 01:49:09.154
and our top recommendations are

01:49:09.215 --> 01:49:11.076
DuckDuckGo, StartPage, and Brave,

01:49:11.577 --> 01:49:12.877
as well as a shout out for,

01:49:13.377 --> 01:49:14.538
I believe it's pronounced Searching.

01:49:15.259 --> 01:49:17.621
which is a fork of search,

01:49:17.661 --> 01:49:19.802
which I believe was abandoned or

01:49:19.823 --> 01:49:20.842
discontinued or something.

01:49:21.423 --> 01:49:23.505
So those are our official recommendations.

01:49:23.586 --> 01:49:27.609
But definitely check out this forum post

01:49:27.649 --> 01:49:29.550
if you're also looking to get off Google,

01:49:29.590 --> 01:49:29.970
because

01:49:30.831 --> 01:49:32.353
I mean, I see everything in here.

01:49:32.472 --> 01:49:33.934
I see... What's this one?

01:49:33.993 --> 01:49:35.695
Obligatory link to the page I just shared.

01:49:36.095 --> 01:49:37.677
Someone else has been brave as good for

01:49:37.717 --> 01:49:38.759
me except images,

01:49:38.798 --> 01:49:40.460
which I totally agree on that one.

01:49:41.381 --> 01:49:42.582
Someone else said Kagi.

01:49:42.782 --> 01:49:43.963
Another person said Kagi.

01:49:44.043 --> 01:49:45.465
Someone said the no AI version of

01:49:45.524 --> 01:49:46.326
DuckDuckGo.

01:49:47.367 --> 01:49:48.787
Shared a couple links to some other

01:49:48.868 --> 01:49:50.128
projects that have been promoted on the

01:49:50.168 --> 01:49:50.710
forum.

01:49:51.270 --> 01:49:52.331
So, yeah, it's...

01:49:54.331 --> 01:49:54.871
Yeah, I mean,

01:49:54.990 --> 01:49:56.891
there's a lot of things being discussed

01:49:56.931 --> 01:49:57.231
here.

01:49:58.493 --> 01:49:59.393
Somebody said Yandex.

01:49:59.493 --> 01:50:00.712
I'm going to push back on that one

01:50:00.752 --> 01:50:01.333
personally.

01:50:02.234 --> 01:50:04.875
But yeah, lots and lots of votes there.

01:50:04.935 --> 01:50:05.954
If you're thinking, if you're like, oh,

01:50:05.975 --> 01:50:07.176
I've tried Brave and it didn't work,

01:50:07.195 --> 01:50:08.315
and I tried DuckDuckGo,

01:50:08.376 --> 01:50:11.356
try some of these because maybe they are

01:50:11.396 --> 01:50:11.778
pretty good.

01:50:12.137 --> 01:50:14.819
So yeah,

01:50:14.838 --> 01:50:15.618
that's all I got on that one.

01:50:17.431 --> 01:50:19.314
Yeah, I think it is kind of,

01:50:20.735 --> 01:50:22.257
I honestly feel like I need a,

01:50:22.318 --> 01:50:23.139
I don't know,

01:50:23.319 --> 01:50:25.362
maybe my experience is not like that

01:50:25.542 --> 01:50:27.545
mirrored by other people's experiences,

01:50:27.604 --> 01:50:29.927
but I feel like Google search is so

01:50:29.967 --> 01:50:30.387
bad now.

01:50:30.427 --> 01:50:31.789
Like if you try and search something,

01:50:31.810 --> 01:50:35.194
it'll be like AI slop overview.

01:50:35.454 --> 01:50:36.195
And then it'll be like,

01:50:37.153 --> 01:50:39.094
an ad, another ad, another ad,

01:50:39.173 --> 01:50:42.234
and then like maybe something related to

01:50:42.335 --> 01:50:44.114
what you're searching and then a shopping

01:50:44.154 --> 01:50:44.536
list.

01:50:44.956 --> 01:50:45.456
And it's like,

01:50:46.015 --> 01:50:47.896
you have to scroll like five times and

01:50:47.917 --> 01:50:48.957
then like, there's not even,

01:50:49.237 --> 01:50:50.738
sometimes it's not even something relevant

01:50:50.778 --> 01:50:51.557
to what you're looking up.

01:50:51.938 --> 01:50:55.059
Um, I think, I don't know.

01:50:55.118 --> 01:50:56.699
I feel like, yeah,

01:50:57.180 --> 01:50:59.381
I feel like Google is kind of crap

01:50:59.440 --> 01:50:59.720
now.

01:51:00.041 --> 01:51:00.520
Um,

01:51:00.541 --> 01:51:02.542
maybe some of that's due to the AI,

01:51:03.282 --> 01:51:05.302
AI slop stuff that every, every single,

01:51:05.382 --> 01:51:05.422
um,

01:51:07.033 --> 01:51:08.375
search engine is integrating.

01:51:08.515 --> 01:51:12.056
I feel like also the AI overviews are,

01:51:12.077 --> 01:51:15.878
I don't know, making it,

01:51:17.298 --> 01:51:18.779
they're trying to keep people from

01:51:18.840 --> 01:51:19.820
clicking on a link.

01:51:19.980 --> 01:51:21.341
They're trying to keep people in the

01:51:21.400 --> 01:51:22.322
search index.

01:51:23.382 --> 01:51:24.684
instead of visiting a website.

01:51:24.703 --> 01:51:25.583
And I think it's actually,

01:51:26.163 --> 01:51:26.904
from what I've heard,

01:51:26.965 --> 01:51:29.246
it actually is impacting website owners

01:51:29.286 --> 01:51:32.287
because instead of actually some person

01:51:32.306 --> 01:51:33.207
visiting the website,

01:51:33.247 --> 01:51:36.168
an AI overview is just scraping it and

01:51:36.208 --> 01:51:38.289
then giving the answer to someone and

01:51:38.310 --> 01:51:39.810
they're not clicking onto websites.

01:51:39.871 --> 01:51:40.051
So

01:51:40.890 --> 01:51:42.493
Google is kind of taking away from

01:51:42.653 --> 01:51:46.377
websites traffic in that aspect and every

01:51:46.457 --> 01:51:49.320
other search engine that does this.

01:51:49.461 --> 01:51:50.381
And unfortunately,

01:51:51.002 --> 01:51:52.663
basically all the ones we recommend do

01:51:52.703 --> 01:51:54.386
this by default.

01:51:54.565 --> 01:51:58.610
So Brave Search has an AI overview.

01:51:59.351 --> 01:52:00.974
DuckDuckGo has an AI overview.

01:52:03.737 --> 01:52:06.438
It's really stop page.

01:52:06.457 --> 01:52:08.297
Actually, I don't know if stop page does.

01:52:08.337 --> 01:52:08.818
Let's see.

01:52:09.858 --> 01:52:12.599
I will say, while you're looking that up,

01:52:12.918 --> 01:52:14.779
again, in the thread,

01:52:14.798 --> 01:52:15.840
a lot of people were pointing out,

01:52:15.899 --> 01:52:19.260
I think it's noai.duckduckgo.com will give

01:52:19.279 --> 01:52:21.520
you a DuckDuckGo without the AI summary.

01:52:22.280 --> 01:52:24.442
So I think Kagi was another one that

01:52:24.481 --> 01:52:25.122
people recommended.

01:52:25.462 --> 01:52:26.021
For those who don't know,

01:52:26.061 --> 01:52:27.202
Kagi is a paid option.

01:52:28.082 --> 01:52:30.203
But I believe that the...

01:52:32.914 --> 01:52:33.635
words for a minute there.

01:52:33.996 --> 01:52:35.837
The AI summary is optional.

01:52:35.997 --> 01:52:37.417
I think it does have an AI summary,

01:52:37.457 --> 01:52:38.557
but since you have to log in to

01:52:38.578 --> 01:52:39.439
do a search anyways,

01:52:39.479 --> 01:52:41.100
because you need to use an account,

01:52:41.800 --> 01:52:42.961
you can turn it off in your account

01:52:42.980 --> 01:52:44.501
and it'll just stay off.

01:52:46.783 --> 01:52:46.983
Yeah.

01:52:47.203 --> 01:52:48.023
Kaji, Kaji, Kagi, Kaji.

01:52:48.042 --> 01:52:49.064
I don't know how you say it.

01:52:49.083 --> 01:52:52.546
I don't know if the name is confusing,

01:52:52.626 --> 01:52:53.947
but you know what I'm trying to say.

01:52:54.106 --> 01:52:55.247
Apparently it's a Japanese name.

01:52:55.266 --> 01:52:57.028
Okay.

01:52:57.088 --> 01:52:58.628
That might be why.

01:52:58.649 --> 01:52:59.109
I'm just a...

01:53:01.003 --> 01:53:02.445
I'm just an annoying Australian.

01:53:02.485 --> 01:53:04.068
I don't know how to say anything outside

01:53:04.108 --> 01:53:04.649
of my country.

01:53:05.250 --> 01:53:05.630
But anyway,

01:53:05.670 --> 01:53:08.354
what I'm trying to say is the AI

01:53:08.793 --> 01:53:10.636
overview...

01:53:10.917 --> 01:53:13.000
It looks like Startpage doesn't have that.

01:53:13.079 --> 01:53:14.962
So maybe that's something to look at.

01:53:15.682 --> 01:53:16.304
I personally...

01:53:17.104 --> 01:53:17.945
I don't know.

01:53:17.966 --> 01:53:20.427
I always find start pages kind of slow.

01:53:20.648 --> 01:53:22.788
They don't have servers everywhere.

01:53:23.970 --> 01:53:24.170
Also,

01:53:24.210 --> 01:53:25.551
there's been some scandals with them in

01:53:25.591 --> 01:53:26.492
the past as well.

01:53:27.512 --> 01:53:28.713
Let's see what someone said here.

01:53:28.793 --> 01:53:29.173
Oh, nice.

01:53:29.194 --> 01:53:31.836
Thanks for that noai.duckduckgo website.

01:53:32.376 --> 01:53:34.557
Yeah, yeah.

01:53:35.418 --> 01:53:36.578
That is quite a nice one to do.

01:53:36.859 --> 01:53:38.501
I think I might replace my current one

01:53:38.520 --> 01:53:40.462
with that because, oh my goodness,

01:53:40.481 --> 01:53:42.984
I'm getting so sick of this silly AI

01:53:43.043 --> 01:53:43.645
overview thing.

01:53:43.765 --> 01:53:44.244
Oh my goodness.

01:53:45.725 --> 01:53:47.367
i think also yeah like i said it's

01:53:47.407 --> 01:53:49.426
kind of taking away from website owners

01:53:49.487 --> 01:53:52.309
when you don't visit their website uh i

01:53:52.328 --> 01:53:54.328
mean we're all using ad blockers here so

01:53:54.349 --> 01:53:56.529
it's probably not helping but like i feel

01:53:56.550 --> 01:53:58.990
like them getting insight and like traffic

01:53:59.030 --> 01:54:01.572
is also important it it it affects the

01:54:01.631 --> 01:54:05.453
search index as well um with how websites

01:54:05.533 --> 01:54:06.194
are accessed

01:54:07.054 --> 01:54:09.796
And I would also push back against people

01:54:09.837 --> 01:54:10.978
saying like, you know,

01:54:11.618 --> 01:54:13.539
I use AI instead of a search engine.

01:54:13.581 --> 01:54:13.801
Like,

01:54:14.622 --> 01:54:16.963
let's let's try not to do that because

01:54:17.104 --> 01:54:19.645
I think, you know, that's bad.

01:54:19.746 --> 01:54:21.667
The the issue with these AI

01:54:22.429 --> 01:54:25.432
chat platforms is they're kind of a black

01:54:25.474 --> 01:54:27.336
box in terms of where the data is

01:54:27.355 --> 01:54:27.657
going.

01:54:27.716 --> 01:54:28.939
A lot of these websites,

01:54:28.979 --> 01:54:30.881
like I know OpenAI, Gemini,

01:54:30.900 --> 01:54:33.265
all these websites, by default,

01:54:33.284 --> 01:54:34.827
they're using your data to improve their

01:54:34.846 --> 01:54:35.247
models.

01:54:35.889 --> 01:54:37.189
And when you put this information in

01:54:37.230 --> 01:54:37.411
there,

01:54:39.167 --> 01:54:42.610
it's not very easy to get it out

01:54:42.951 --> 01:54:44.773
so once the data's been trained into a

01:54:44.813 --> 01:54:46.814
model it's kind of impossible to get it

01:54:46.895 --> 01:54:49.537
removed which is like another issue that

01:54:49.578 --> 01:54:52.461
we're facing right like let's say you were

01:54:52.600 --> 01:54:54.842
a minor celebrity for a little while and

01:54:54.863 --> 01:54:56.284
you wanted to kind of start a new

01:54:56.324 --> 01:54:59.087
life as someone else right um basically

01:54:59.648 --> 01:55:01.350
you get everything removed on the internet

01:55:01.369 --> 01:55:02.511
about yourself and

01:55:02.610 --> 01:55:04.512
But then this AI model that scraped it

01:55:04.533 --> 01:55:05.153
at some point,

01:55:05.712 --> 01:55:07.295
if you ask the AI model about it,

01:55:07.354 --> 01:55:09.076
even though the information doesn't exist

01:55:09.395 --> 01:55:11.238
in search engines anymore and on the

01:55:11.278 --> 01:55:13.319
internet, it still knows about it.

01:55:13.880 --> 01:55:15.081
So, you know,

01:55:15.161 --> 01:55:18.684
I think that's a concern that is pretty

01:55:18.724 --> 01:55:20.225
massive with these AI models.

01:55:20.324 --> 01:55:22.447
And also, I think it's...

01:55:26.854 --> 01:55:28.175
Not always very accurate,

01:55:28.435 --> 01:55:30.355
but I think everyone already kind of knows

01:55:30.395 --> 01:55:30.595
that.

01:55:30.655 --> 01:55:32.216
That's kind of obvious at this point,

01:55:32.256 --> 01:55:34.037
but yeah.

01:55:34.157 --> 01:55:35.157
That's what I was going to point out

01:55:35.216 --> 01:55:36.757
is like, yeah, it's still, to this day,

01:55:36.938 --> 01:55:37.438
I still,

01:55:38.858 --> 01:55:40.259
I do use AI quite a bit for

01:55:40.319 --> 01:55:42.618
research just because it's easier to ask

01:55:42.679 --> 01:55:43.880
it complex questions.

01:55:44.239 --> 01:55:47.020
But I use Braves Leo,

01:55:47.041 --> 01:55:48.841
which cites all of its sources and I

01:55:48.900 --> 01:55:49.581
double check every,

01:55:49.680 --> 01:55:50.742
and it'll cite in the thing.

01:55:50.761 --> 01:55:51.402
It won't just be like,

01:55:51.662 --> 01:55:53.101
here's a paragraph and here's the five

01:55:53.122 --> 01:55:53.882
places I took it from.

01:55:53.943 --> 01:55:55.422
It'll be like, here's a paragraph,

01:55:55.682 --> 01:55:57.425
but this sentence came from this source

01:55:57.444 --> 01:55:58.966
and this sentence came from this source.

01:55:59.287 --> 01:56:01.729
And so I will double check every single

01:56:01.770 --> 01:56:02.770
source and be like, okay,

01:56:02.810 --> 01:56:03.752
did it actually say that?

01:56:04.113 --> 01:56:04.993
Or did you make things up?

01:56:05.014 --> 01:56:06.354
And it's definitely getting a lot better,

01:56:06.395 --> 01:56:07.777
but I'd still say at least about ten

01:56:07.837 --> 01:56:09.338
percent of the time I click on the

01:56:09.378 --> 01:56:10.038
source and I'm like,

01:56:10.760 --> 01:56:11.841
I don't see that anywhere.

01:56:11.860 --> 01:56:12.761
Where did you get that from?

01:56:12.862 --> 01:56:14.243
Actually,

01:56:14.804 --> 01:56:16.604
I posted a screenshot the other day where

01:56:16.886 --> 01:56:20.127
just for fun, I told Leo,

01:56:20.228 --> 01:56:20.609
I was like,

01:56:20.668 --> 01:56:22.130
tell me about the new oil,

01:56:22.170 --> 01:56:23.171
the privacy project.

01:56:23.631 --> 01:56:25.632
And it completely with full confidence

01:56:25.693 --> 01:56:27.895
made up a name that I've never gone

01:56:27.954 --> 01:56:28.256
by.

01:56:28.895 --> 01:56:30.096
I think it based it off like my

01:56:30.197 --> 01:56:31.738
GitHub username or something.

01:56:32.502 --> 01:56:33.542
I don't even remember what it was,

01:56:33.703 --> 01:56:35.863
but it was, it was just weird.

01:56:35.884 --> 01:56:36.184
It was like,

01:56:36.224 --> 01:56:37.524
where did you get that from?

01:56:37.944 --> 01:56:40.904
And so, yeah, it's just.

01:56:40.925 --> 01:56:41.265
I knew it.

01:56:41.286 --> 01:56:42.966
Your name was John oil.

01:56:43.206 --> 01:56:43.706
I knew it.

01:56:44.886 --> 01:56:45.766
No, it said it was like,

01:56:46.106 --> 01:56:46.867
it said it was like a,

01:56:47.006 --> 01:56:49.068
like Travis no Nate or something.

01:56:49.188 --> 01:56:51.529
And I'm like, okay, not,

01:56:51.628 --> 01:56:52.609
not the worst name,

01:56:52.628 --> 01:56:53.588
but how'd you get that out of it?

01:56:53.609 --> 01:56:55.810
Cause my, my GitHub username is TNO Nate.

01:56:55.829 --> 01:56:56.789
Cause at the time I made it,

01:56:57.149 --> 01:56:58.570
apparently Nate B was already taken,

01:56:58.591 --> 01:56:59.850
which is usually what I use, but.

01:57:00.734 --> 01:57:02.015
Yeah, it was just like, okay,

01:57:02.074 --> 01:57:03.414
not sure where you got that one from,

01:57:03.475 --> 01:57:05.676
especially when there's a million posts

01:57:05.756 --> 01:57:07.417
online of people calling me Nate and me

01:57:07.457 --> 01:57:08.938
calling myself Nate, but whatever.

01:57:09.158 --> 01:57:10.519
Okay.

01:57:10.538 --> 01:57:10.819
But yeah,

01:57:11.059 --> 01:57:12.000
real quick to go back to one more

01:57:12.020 --> 01:57:13.380
thing you said about even if you take

01:57:13.400 --> 01:57:13.820
the data down,

01:57:13.860 --> 01:57:14.860
it can still be in the training data.

01:57:14.881 --> 01:57:15.841
We covered a story about that.

01:57:15.862 --> 01:57:19.404
There was an adult actress who pays for

01:57:19.444 --> 01:57:20.984
the data removal services and everything,

01:57:21.024 --> 01:57:24.105
and somehow AI got her real name and

01:57:24.246 --> 01:57:27.207
address and told it to somebody on Twitter

01:57:27.247 --> 01:57:28.328
completely unprompted.

01:57:28.448 --> 01:57:29.488
So yeah, it's...

01:57:30.769 --> 01:57:31.350
Not good stuff.

01:57:31.369 --> 01:57:34.811
Not good stuff.

01:57:34.851 --> 01:57:35.032
Yeah,

01:57:35.091 --> 01:57:37.673
even data breaches could be scraped

01:57:37.734 --> 01:57:39.795
because we all deal with this.

01:57:39.875 --> 01:57:42.317
Anyone that runs a website has seen...

01:57:43.938 --> 01:57:45.458
They'll look at their traffic logs and

01:57:45.479 --> 01:57:48.439
they'll see a million requests every day

01:57:48.460 --> 01:57:49.961
and it's like, what?

01:57:50.060 --> 01:57:50.542
Why?

01:57:50.681 --> 01:57:51.061
Why?

01:57:51.242 --> 01:57:53.764
From China or some random country that's

01:57:54.163 --> 01:57:55.465
probably not going to be viewing the

01:57:55.505 --> 01:57:56.706
website legitimately, right?

01:57:56.826 --> 01:57:57.006
Yeah.

01:57:57.706 --> 01:57:58.766
If it's an English website,

01:57:58.806 --> 01:58:00.309
then why would there be so many people

01:58:00.328 --> 01:58:01.550
from China accessing it?

01:58:02.010 --> 01:58:04.032
Or some other country?

01:58:04.131 --> 01:58:05.673
I don't know.

01:58:05.694 --> 01:58:06.453
Make up whatever you want.

01:58:06.814 --> 01:58:08.496
But yeah,

01:58:09.077 --> 01:58:12.600
it's causing websites a lot of issues.

01:58:14.181 --> 01:58:15.363
And also login pages.

01:58:15.462 --> 01:58:16.944
I don't know if I still do since

01:58:17.024 --> 01:58:18.145
I switched hosting providers,

01:58:18.166 --> 01:58:19.025
but I used to get a lot of

01:58:19.086 --> 01:58:22.470
requests for the new oil.org slash cpanel.

01:58:23.496 --> 01:58:25.056
like people trying to find the cPanel

01:58:25.096 --> 01:58:26.158
login to my website.

01:58:26.177 --> 01:58:28.359
And it's just like, oh, OK.

01:58:28.500 --> 01:58:30.020
Thank god that page doesn't exist.

01:58:30.121 --> 01:58:32.823
But yeah, it's crazy.

01:58:36.707 --> 01:58:37.627
One thing real quick.

01:58:37.728 --> 01:58:38.149
Somebody said,

01:58:38.208 --> 01:58:39.770
put the video in Apple Podcasts, please.

01:58:39.869 --> 01:58:41.391
I think we're planning to, actually.

01:58:41.431 --> 01:58:44.454
The podcast app we use sent out an

01:58:44.515 --> 01:58:46.036
email a couple of weeks ago that said

01:58:46.076 --> 01:58:47.877
that video podcasts are in beta.

01:58:47.917 --> 01:58:49.579
So I think we're waiting for access to

01:58:49.600 --> 01:58:49.840
that.

01:58:49.960 --> 01:58:51.681
And that is something we definitely want

01:58:51.702 --> 01:58:52.261
to play around with.

01:58:52.282 --> 01:58:53.302
We're very interested in that.

01:58:53.663 --> 01:58:56.605
But we just don't have access to it

01:58:56.626 --> 01:58:56.685
yet.

01:59:00.167 --> 01:59:02.548
I think that was kind of all we

01:59:02.588 --> 01:59:04.590
had for forum stuff.

01:59:05.029 --> 01:59:07.091
So I know we've been answering questions

01:59:07.211 --> 01:59:08.051
as people go,

01:59:08.190 --> 01:59:11.972
but might be officially time for the Q&A

01:59:11.993 --> 01:59:12.132
now.

01:59:12.252 --> 01:59:15.453
And somebody actually just asked here,

01:59:15.474 --> 01:59:16.453
you're talking about AI.

01:59:16.493 --> 01:59:17.755
Have you tried to self-host your own

01:59:17.795 --> 01:59:18.395
private AI?

01:59:19.515 --> 01:59:20.355
Yes and no.

01:59:20.376 --> 01:59:21.595
I don't know if this counts as

01:59:21.615 --> 01:59:22.136
self-hosting.

01:59:22.356 --> 01:59:25.637
I've used Jan AI and GPT for all,

01:59:25.717 --> 01:59:26.478
and they are pretty good.

01:59:26.537 --> 01:59:27.219
I do like them.

01:59:27.779 --> 01:59:28.078
I just...

01:59:29.560 --> 01:59:31.261
The vast majority of things that I use

01:59:31.381 --> 01:59:37.146
AI for are based on having web access,

01:59:37.806 --> 01:59:39.609
like current web access.

01:59:39.788 --> 01:59:40.970
Like if I'm doing research,

01:59:41.189 --> 01:59:42.190
I want it to ping

01:59:43.074 --> 01:59:44.576
the latest news stories and have the

01:59:44.615 --> 01:59:45.537
latest information.

01:59:46.819 --> 01:59:47.458
You know, it's not,

01:59:47.618 --> 01:59:49.240
I don't typically use it for things like

01:59:49.940 --> 01:59:51.403
write a blog post or even like proofread

01:59:51.422 --> 01:59:53.083
this blog post or like help me brainstorm

01:59:53.144 --> 01:59:53.404
ideas.

01:59:53.425 --> 01:59:54.685
Like I use it for that stuff sometimes,

01:59:54.725 --> 01:59:55.966
especially if I'm having writer's block

01:59:55.987 --> 01:59:56.527
and I just like, dude,

01:59:56.546 --> 01:59:57.689
I just need to get out of this.

01:59:57.708 --> 01:59:58.389
Like, please help.

01:59:59.409 --> 02:00:00.751
But I don't typically use it for stuff

02:00:00.770 --> 02:00:01.051
like that.

02:00:01.091 --> 02:00:02.912
I mostly use it for researching stuff.

02:00:03.394 --> 02:00:04.113
And in that case,

02:00:04.274 --> 02:00:06.556
I can't have an AI model that's like,

02:00:07.037 --> 02:00:07.537
you know, oh,

02:00:07.596 --> 02:00:09.198
my latest information is from September of

02:00:09.238 --> 02:00:09.957
twenty twenty five.

02:00:09.997 --> 02:00:10.979
And it's like, OK, that's great.

02:00:11.059 --> 02:00:13.180
But this thing had a data breach in

02:00:13.359 --> 02:00:14.581
April and I kind of need you to

02:00:14.600 --> 02:00:15.180
know that.

02:00:15.261 --> 02:00:16.400
Or, you know, again,

02:00:16.421 --> 02:00:17.962
I'm looking for this specific thing that

02:00:18.002 --> 02:00:19.243
happened that I want to reference as an

02:00:19.283 --> 02:00:19.743
example.

02:00:19.823 --> 02:00:21.144
And that happened two months ago.

02:00:21.203 --> 02:00:23.484
And so I kind of I really like

02:00:24.204 --> 02:00:26.725
Leo and Lumo for having Leo's better than

02:00:26.765 --> 02:00:27.886
Lumo with this, in my opinion.

02:00:27.926 --> 02:00:29.266
But maybe it's because I don't pay for

02:00:29.306 --> 02:00:29.547
Lumo.

02:00:30.547 --> 02:00:32.389
I like them for having that that web

02:00:32.488 --> 02:00:33.689
access to be able to pull the latest.

02:00:33.829 --> 02:00:34.649
I mean, there are times that

02:00:35.154 --> 02:00:35.994
just to test it,

02:00:36.055 --> 02:00:37.515
I'll see like a headline of, you know,

02:00:37.555 --> 02:00:39.818
like, um, kind of political, but sorry,

02:00:39.837 --> 02:00:41.019
his first example that came up, you know,

02:00:41.118 --> 02:00:41.198
oh,

02:00:41.219 --> 02:00:42.801
the U S assassinated this like foreign

02:00:42.860 --> 02:00:43.280
general.

02:00:43.761 --> 02:00:45.622
And I'll like type it into the, the,

02:00:45.643 --> 02:00:46.604
you know, Hey,

02:00:46.644 --> 02:00:47.845
tell me the latest about this foreign

02:00:47.885 --> 02:00:48.265
general.

02:00:48.385 --> 02:00:49.426
And it'll give me right up to the

02:00:49.445 --> 02:00:50.466
minute of like, you know,

02:00:50.867 --> 02:00:51.707
this happened today.

02:00:51.728 --> 02:00:52.509
And I'm just like, damn,

02:00:52.548 --> 02:00:53.569
that's really good.

02:00:54.530 --> 02:00:55.712
I just don't get that with the offline

02:00:55.792 --> 02:00:56.391
ones personally,

02:00:56.492 --> 02:00:57.893
but maybe it's because I'm not properly

02:00:57.932 --> 02:00:59.234
self-hosting and I'm just using an app.

02:00:59.494 --> 02:01:00.815
So that's been my experience.

02:01:03.453 --> 02:01:05.755
yeah I think also I think I mean

02:01:05.914 --> 02:01:08.216
I've tried out like the gen AI thing

02:01:08.256 --> 02:01:10.498
a little bit and other other similar

02:01:10.519 --> 02:01:12.500
things just because I was kind of curious

02:01:12.539 --> 02:01:16.943
about this uh I'm not really very heavy

02:01:16.962 --> 02:01:18.765
AI user I'd say I use it like

02:01:19.945 --> 02:01:22.328
every once in a blue moon but like

02:01:22.488 --> 02:01:24.168
for something that like I can't find

02:01:24.829 --> 02:01:26.631
information on sometimes it's helpful for

02:01:26.671 --> 02:01:27.872
troubleshooting that sort of thing

02:01:29.323 --> 02:01:31.487
but I think the issue with a lot

02:01:31.528 --> 02:01:34.792
of these local systems is they require

02:01:34.872 --> 02:01:37.216
kind of a ridiculously powerful computer

02:01:37.256 --> 02:01:41.462
to get the same level of quality because

02:01:41.622 --> 02:01:42.585
while there is like

02:01:44.231 --> 02:01:45.974
models that can run on most computers.

02:01:46.033 --> 02:01:47.354
If you don't have a hundred and twenty

02:01:47.395 --> 02:01:48.595
eight gigs of memory,

02:01:49.417 --> 02:01:51.658
a massive graphics card like a fifty

02:01:51.698 --> 02:01:52.460
ninety or something,

02:01:52.479 --> 02:01:53.860
you're going to be running a pretty small

02:01:53.921 --> 02:01:58.305
model which has issues, right?

02:01:58.326 --> 02:02:00.347
Like it's it doesn't have the same amount

02:02:00.368 --> 02:02:01.007
of information.

02:02:01.047 --> 02:02:02.149
It doesn't have the same amount of

02:02:02.168 --> 02:02:02.649
context.

02:02:02.729 --> 02:02:04.391
It can't understand what you're trying to

02:02:04.492 --> 02:02:05.271
ask it as well.

02:02:05.972 --> 02:02:07.314
the answers aren't going to be as high

02:02:07.333 --> 02:02:07.774
quality.

02:02:07.793 --> 02:02:10.296
I think that's where the self-hosting

02:02:10.336 --> 02:02:12.497
thing kind of becomes a little bit

02:02:12.577 --> 02:02:13.176
unfeasible,

02:02:13.277 --> 02:02:15.918
especially because if you've been looking

02:02:15.958 --> 02:02:17.420
at PC prices at the moment,

02:02:17.460 --> 02:02:20.702
like you will know that this is like,

02:02:20.782 --> 02:02:21.601
it's inaccessible.

02:02:21.801 --> 02:02:23.842
Like even for the average person to build

02:02:23.863 --> 02:02:24.644
a computer right now,

02:02:24.703 --> 02:02:26.005
it is completely inaccessible.

02:02:26.024 --> 02:02:29.326
Like RAM prices are the highest they've

02:02:29.386 --> 02:02:29.947
ever been.

02:02:31.667 --> 02:02:31.847
Ever.

02:02:33.118 --> 02:02:34.538
So same with graphics cards,

02:02:34.559 --> 02:02:37.480
same with hard drives, SSDs,

02:02:38.521 --> 02:02:39.202
all this stuff.

02:02:39.822 --> 02:02:44.024
I think self-hosting things is kind of a

02:02:44.045 --> 02:02:46.426
bit of a, well, no, self-hosting is fine,

02:02:46.466 --> 02:02:51.128
but self-hosting AI model stuff is not

02:02:51.168 --> 02:02:52.829
really that feasible.

02:02:52.909 --> 02:02:56.112
I would also try and question people on

02:02:56.152 --> 02:02:56.471
like,

02:02:56.891 --> 02:02:58.694
do you really need to be using an

02:02:58.713 --> 02:02:59.354
AI model?

02:02:59.962 --> 02:03:00.243
Like,

02:03:00.563 --> 02:03:01.743
I feel like we don't really need to

02:03:01.764 --> 02:03:04.685
be doing that, like, that much.

02:03:05.447 --> 02:03:05.867
I feel like it's,

02:03:06.627 --> 02:03:08.529
we're at a stage at least where this

02:03:08.609 --> 02:03:09.750
technology is optional.

02:03:11.470 --> 02:03:13.672
And I would sort of push people towards

02:03:14.372 --> 02:03:17.055
maybe try and work things out without it.

02:03:18.863 --> 02:03:20.404
And use some of these, like Nate said,

02:03:20.423 --> 02:03:22.725
there's like Lumo, there's Leo,

02:03:22.744 --> 02:03:25.286
there's DuckDuckGo, I think has one.

02:03:26.546 --> 02:03:28.046
I only think of too many other ones,

02:03:28.106 --> 02:03:30.068
but there's all those ones that don't

02:03:30.108 --> 02:03:32.609
retain data and don't train on your data.

02:03:32.810 --> 02:03:36.570
So that could be a better idea if

02:03:36.591 --> 02:03:37.931
you only need it every so often.

02:03:38.471 --> 02:03:39.592
But I think generally...

02:03:40.868 --> 02:03:43.189
uh, I would avoid it if you can,

02:03:43.369 --> 02:03:44.831
cause there's a bunch of issues with it.

02:03:45.252 --> 02:03:46.152
Um,

02:03:46.193 --> 02:03:47.713
it's kind of making the world a terrible

02:03:47.753 --> 02:03:48.854
place at the moment.

02:03:49.295 --> 02:03:52.658
So yeah.

02:03:52.698 --> 02:03:53.057
Yeah.

02:03:53.078 --> 02:03:54.219
Just to back up what you were saying

02:03:54.238 --> 02:03:55.260
about the computer,

02:03:55.279 --> 02:03:57.721
I have a decent enough, um,

02:03:58.563 --> 02:03:59.984
my windows computer has like a,

02:04:00.203 --> 02:04:01.005
a Ryzen seven,

02:04:04.372 --> 02:04:05.432
I don't remember what kind of graphics

02:04:05.472 --> 02:04:06.234
card it's decent.

02:04:06.293 --> 02:04:07.414
It's definitely not as good as I'd like

02:04:07.435 --> 02:04:08.697
it to be, but yeah,

02:04:08.796 --> 02:04:09.658
every time I fire up,

02:04:09.698 --> 02:04:10.979
this is another reason I don't really use

02:04:11.179 --> 02:04:12.581
GPT for all to be honest is like

02:04:12.661 --> 02:04:13.681
every time I fire it up,

02:04:14.202 --> 02:04:15.663
it sounds like it's taken off and it's

02:04:15.684 --> 02:04:16.685
about to explode on me.

02:04:16.965 --> 02:04:21.210
And it's also just super, super slow.

02:04:21.409 --> 02:04:22.811
And it's like, okay, I could,

02:04:23.051 --> 02:04:24.092
I could get Leo to do this a

02:04:24.132 --> 02:04:24.774
lot faster.

02:04:25.453 --> 02:04:26.114
So yeah,

02:04:26.788 --> 02:04:28.289
But yeah, it's, um, I,

02:04:28.310 --> 02:04:29.490
I do try to use it as a

02:04:29.511 --> 02:04:30.291
bit of a last resort.

02:04:30.310 --> 02:04:31.712
You know, I try to do searches first.

02:04:31.792 --> 02:04:33.052
I try to figure it out first.

02:04:33.092 --> 02:04:33.412
I've got,

02:04:33.854 --> 02:04:34.913
when I talk about writer's block,

02:04:34.953 --> 02:04:35.975
I've got a bunch of tricks, you know,

02:04:35.994 --> 02:04:36.314
I've got,

02:04:36.414 --> 02:04:38.657
I know how to outline things and get

02:04:38.676 --> 02:04:39.856
up and go for a walk and stretch

02:04:39.896 --> 02:04:40.398
my legs.

02:04:40.417 --> 02:04:41.097
And, but you know,

02:04:41.118 --> 02:04:42.719
there's some times where it's just like,

02:04:42.878 --> 02:04:44.399
uh, I'm I'm lost.

02:04:44.439 --> 02:04:45.360
What do I do?

02:04:45.400 --> 02:04:47.082
So, but.

02:04:50.328 --> 02:04:52.189
I see Sid did ask a while back

02:04:52.208 --> 02:04:53.369
when we were talking about search engines

02:04:53.430 --> 02:04:54.670
if we had any thoughts on Quant.

02:04:55.970 --> 02:04:56.970
I don't have any thoughts on them.

02:04:57.350 --> 02:04:58.411
I think they're kind of like the way

02:04:58.431 --> 02:04:59.431
you described DuckDuckGo.

02:04:59.471 --> 02:05:02.153
They don't really stand out,

02:05:02.193 --> 02:05:02.733
in my opinion.

02:05:03.472 --> 02:05:04.594
I think there's better options.

02:05:05.134 --> 02:05:06.453
But I don't think there's anything wrong

02:05:06.493 --> 02:05:07.295
with them, per se,

02:05:07.335 --> 02:05:10.676
as far as I know.

02:05:10.716 --> 02:05:14.417
Trying to look it up here.

02:05:14.457 --> 02:05:15.778
But kind of a...

02:05:17.542 --> 02:05:18.305
quiet night.

02:05:18.604 --> 02:05:20.087
I think we've been answering questions as

02:05:20.108 --> 02:05:21.692
we go.

02:05:21.731 --> 02:05:24.197
Yeah, I think with Quant, I think it's...

02:05:26.444 --> 02:05:27.865
just doesn't have the same level of

02:05:27.926 --> 02:05:30.606
privacy that the other ones that we

02:05:30.686 --> 02:05:32.688
recommend have like there's just small

02:05:32.707 --> 02:05:34.989
things that other ones kind of edge it

02:05:35.109 --> 02:05:37.171
out uh I think there were some privacy

02:05:37.211 --> 02:05:40.351
concerns with it again though go check out

02:05:40.391 --> 02:05:42.354
the privacy guides forum like I'm I am

02:05:42.434 --> 02:05:44.194
almost certain that there is a topic about

02:05:44.234 --> 02:05:45.635
this about someone willing to get it out

02:05:45.654 --> 02:05:47.595
to the site yep here we go here's

02:05:47.796 --> 02:05:51.398
uh here's one uh so it does collect

02:05:51.759 --> 02:05:54.220
according to the discussion here they

02:05:55.643 --> 02:05:56.922
They aren't open source.

02:05:57.243 --> 02:06:01.064
There's some information.

02:06:01.083 --> 02:06:02.965
They were initially actually listed on

02:06:03.005 --> 02:06:04.625
privacy guides, but it was removed.

02:06:04.725 --> 02:06:05.905
I had a feeling that was the case.

02:06:07.345 --> 02:06:08.786
So definitely check out that thread.

02:06:08.826 --> 02:06:10.146
See what people are saying about it.

02:06:10.667 --> 02:06:11.527
It could have changed.

02:06:12.167 --> 02:06:13.268
The situation could have changed.

02:06:14.347 --> 02:06:16.488
I would definitely recommend if you think

02:06:16.529 --> 02:06:18.208
that the situation might have improved,

02:06:19.048 --> 02:06:20.869
we're always open to getting things added

02:06:20.909 --> 02:06:21.409
on the site.

02:06:22.170 --> 02:06:23.570
We're currently working on quite a lot of

02:06:23.591 --> 02:06:25.412
changes at the moment.

02:06:25.692 --> 02:06:27.533
We're removing apps,

02:06:27.613 --> 02:06:29.014
getting things updated again.

02:06:30.274 --> 02:06:31.835
So definitely check that out.

02:06:32.235 --> 02:06:35.396
And maybe it is something that we can

02:06:35.457 --> 02:06:36.537
reconsider.

02:06:36.597 --> 02:06:37.719
But as far as I'm aware,

02:06:37.798 --> 02:06:40.579
nothing has changed since it was removed.

02:06:40.659 --> 02:06:42.100
So yeah,

02:06:42.140 --> 02:06:43.301
maybe just stick with the current

02:06:43.341 --> 02:06:46.082
recommendations and that would probably be

02:06:46.623 --> 02:06:47.064
safest.

02:06:48.962 --> 02:06:50.903
It does have its own search index,

02:06:51.182 --> 02:06:53.144
if I understand my research correctly.

02:06:53.203 --> 02:06:55.045
So that's cool.

02:06:55.085 --> 02:06:56.905
But yeah,

02:06:56.926 --> 02:06:58.186
I'll be reading that thread later for

02:06:58.207 --> 02:07:03.550
sure.

02:07:04.430 --> 02:07:05.631
I guess that's about it.

02:07:05.650 --> 02:07:07.612
It doesn't look like any new questions

02:07:07.652 --> 02:07:08.233
have come in.

02:07:08.252 --> 02:07:09.953
I don't know.

02:07:09.974 --> 02:07:10.934
Do you want to give it another minute,

02:07:10.953 --> 02:07:13.395
or do you think we should call it

02:07:13.456 --> 02:07:13.735
a show?

02:07:16.920 --> 02:07:17.400
For some reason,

02:07:17.421 --> 02:07:19.442
I'm not seeing some of the questions.

02:07:19.481 --> 02:07:20.882
Some of the comments are not coming

02:07:20.903 --> 02:07:22.203
through on StreamYard here,

02:07:22.243 --> 02:07:25.407
but I did see some people making comments

02:07:25.426 --> 02:07:27.307
that maybe we could touch on a little

02:07:27.328 --> 02:07:27.889
bit here.

02:07:28.408 --> 02:07:29.449
Easy browser for...

02:07:34.073 --> 02:07:35.194
Easy browser for boomers.

02:07:35.274 --> 02:07:36.935
I was thinking DuckDuckGo for mom.

02:07:37.376 --> 02:07:40.957
I mean, yeah, I think it's pretty basic.

02:07:40.997 --> 02:07:42.198
It does all the same stuff.

02:07:42.479 --> 02:07:44.060
I don't think it's a bad option.

02:07:44.240 --> 02:07:45.402
I think, you know,

02:07:45.930 --> 02:07:50.311
We kind of always push people towards the

02:07:50.332 --> 02:07:51.452
best possible options.

02:07:51.492 --> 02:07:57.333
But I think if it works, I mean,

02:07:57.413 --> 02:07:57.814
I don't know.

02:07:58.373 --> 02:07:59.715
I personally haven't used it that much.

02:07:59.734 --> 02:08:01.256
I've just tested it out a couple of

02:08:01.296 --> 02:08:02.275
times to see what it did.

02:08:02.576 --> 02:08:04.636
But it seems pretty basic and pretty

02:08:04.697 --> 02:08:05.077
simple.

02:08:05.117 --> 02:08:06.818
It does everything on the tin.

02:08:06.877 --> 02:08:11.259
There's nothing too bad about it.

02:08:11.359 --> 02:08:13.279
I mean, I wouldn't be against doing that.

02:08:15.426 --> 02:08:16.829
I think Brave's also a good option.

02:08:16.930 --> 02:08:18.314
Firefox is also a good option.

02:08:18.654 --> 02:08:19.957
Again, though, I feel like with Brave,

02:08:19.978 --> 02:08:21.100
it's a little bit annoying because they

02:08:21.119 --> 02:08:22.644
always add features and then it gets

02:08:22.684 --> 02:08:23.867
turned on by default.

02:08:24.347 --> 02:08:24.788
And it's like,

02:08:26.451 --> 02:08:26.851
I don't know.

02:08:27.171 --> 02:08:28.052
Same with Firefox.

02:08:28.092 --> 02:08:28.894
They do the same thing.

02:08:31.256 --> 02:08:32.618
It is kind of frustrating that, like,

02:08:33.097 --> 02:08:35.240
there's no way to be, like... Don't...

02:08:36.001 --> 02:08:38.203
Disable all new features by default.

02:08:38.444 --> 02:08:39.685
Like, if that was a feature, I'd be,

02:08:39.725 --> 02:08:40.947
like, so on board with that.

02:08:41.027 --> 02:08:43.109
But, yeah.

02:08:43.189 --> 02:08:45.591
I think DuckDuckGo is not a bad option.

02:08:45.872 --> 02:08:47.033
But, again, there's, like...

02:08:48.293 --> 02:08:50.055
I think if you're getting someone off

02:08:50.095 --> 02:08:53.398
Chrome or Opera or these other really bad

02:08:53.538 --> 02:08:53.738
ones,

02:08:53.859 --> 02:08:55.600
I think anything is better than that.

02:08:57.002 --> 02:08:58.643
Even if it's not the best possible option.

02:09:00.184 --> 02:09:03.686
Definitely think about it like that.

02:09:03.726 --> 02:09:04.807
I think it's really tricky.

02:09:05.368 --> 02:09:06.029
On the one hand,

02:09:06.329 --> 02:09:08.872
what I would say is something I think

02:09:08.891 --> 02:09:10.552
we all forget in the community a lot.

02:09:12.287 --> 02:09:13.208
you can always change.

02:09:14.069 --> 02:09:16.314
There is nothing stopping you from if you

02:09:16.574 --> 02:09:20.461
use Brave and then like you were saying,

02:09:20.582 --> 02:09:20.622
oh,

02:09:20.681 --> 02:09:22.404
it keeps pushing these features or I just

02:09:22.444 --> 02:09:23.627
found out I don't agree with the CEO

02:09:23.646 --> 02:09:24.087
or whatever.

02:09:25.645 --> 02:09:27.368
so switch, you didn't marry them.

02:09:27.688 --> 02:09:28.708
And even then divorces exist.

02:09:28.809 --> 02:09:30.470
Like, you know, you didn't, it's, it's,

02:09:30.569 --> 02:09:32.011
it's free, like switch to,

02:09:32.051 --> 02:09:33.573
to Firefox or whatever else.

02:09:33.632 --> 02:09:35.793
Like you can, we can always change,

02:09:36.234 --> 02:09:38.777
but specifically when it comes to, um,

02:09:38.796 --> 02:09:38.976
you know,

02:09:38.997 --> 02:09:39.957
you're talking about like for family

02:09:39.978 --> 02:09:40.257
members,

02:09:40.757 --> 02:09:41.939
I think that gets a little trickier

02:09:41.958 --> 02:09:43.680
because I think there's, um,

02:09:44.707 --> 02:09:45.627
there's two obstacles there.

02:09:45.707 --> 02:09:46.807
One of them is like a mental block.

02:09:46.847 --> 02:09:47.988
Like I've,

02:09:48.167 --> 02:09:49.548
I've read so many stories usually on

02:09:49.588 --> 02:09:51.229
Reddit of people that are like, you know,

02:09:51.489 --> 02:09:52.189
Oh, I like,

02:09:53.451 --> 02:09:54.990
I went to my mom's house for Thanksgiving

02:09:55.190 --> 02:09:57.212
and I like switched her over to Chrome.

02:09:57.672 --> 02:09:59.212
And then I just changed the logo to

02:09:59.233 --> 02:10:00.774
look like internet Explorer because she's

02:10:00.793 --> 02:10:02.154
still using internet Explorer.

02:10:02.475 --> 02:10:02.694
Yes.

02:10:02.715 --> 02:10:03.715
Internet Explorer, not edge.

02:10:04.295 --> 02:10:05.076
And you know, it's like,

02:10:05.115 --> 02:10:05.975
those are the kinds of things where it's

02:10:05.996 --> 02:10:07.396
like, okay, I mean, whatever works,

02:10:07.476 --> 02:10:08.837
like some people are just not tech savvy

02:10:08.856 --> 02:10:09.938
and they're not even going to notice the

02:10:09.957 --> 02:10:10.297
difference.

02:10:11.417 --> 02:10:12.479
But then also like,

02:10:13.891 --> 02:10:15.512
so like where I'm going with that is

02:10:15.533 --> 02:10:15.653
like,

02:10:15.733 --> 02:10:16.813
I think there's some people where if you

02:10:16.872 --> 02:10:19.373
tell them like, you know, Hey,

02:10:19.394 --> 02:10:20.793
I switched your browser because you know,

02:10:20.833 --> 02:10:22.354
your old one hasn't been updated in ten

02:10:22.394 --> 02:10:22.634
years.

02:10:23.175 --> 02:10:24.154
They're going to freak out and they're

02:10:24.175 --> 02:10:24.555
going to be like,

02:10:24.574 --> 02:10:25.375
I don't know how this works,

02:10:25.414 --> 02:10:26.295
but if you would never told them,

02:10:26.314 --> 02:10:27.076
they'd never even notice.

02:10:27.115 --> 02:10:28.475
You know, it's like all in their head.

02:10:28.895 --> 02:10:29.935
I think that's a challenge,

02:10:30.497 --> 02:10:31.896
but then I think there's also the fatigue

02:10:31.976 --> 02:10:32.577
of like, okay,

02:10:32.617 --> 02:10:34.518
say you switch them to Firefox and they're

02:10:34.537 --> 02:10:34.837
just like,

02:10:35.537 --> 02:10:36.078
I don't like this.

02:10:36.118 --> 02:10:37.497
Like genuinely, like, I don't like this.

02:10:37.518 --> 02:10:38.359
This isn't working.

02:10:38.679 --> 02:10:39.838
I don't understand the UI.

02:10:40.399 --> 02:10:41.798
And then, okay, well let's try brave.

02:10:41.819 --> 02:10:42.219
And it's like, well,

02:10:42.238 --> 02:10:43.600
I'm still a little confused and I'm not

02:10:43.640 --> 02:10:44.060
really sure.

02:10:44.119 --> 02:10:45.039
And it's like, it's,

02:10:45.180 --> 02:10:46.380
you don't want to keep switching people

02:10:46.399 --> 02:10:47.140
because they'll get exhausted.

02:10:47.159 --> 02:10:48.081
Like a lot of people have,

02:10:49.100 --> 02:10:50.701
have cited that in the privacy community

02:10:50.780 --> 02:10:51.761
where like, you know,

02:10:51.881 --> 02:10:53.502
I got all my family on like wire

02:10:53.622 --> 02:10:56.402
and then wire went away or, you know,

02:10:56.421 --> 02:10:57.403
I got all my family on wicker,

02:10:57.422 --> 02:10:58.143
which I miss wicker.

02:10:58.262 --> 02:10:59.122
I thought wicker was awesome,

02:10:59.143 --> 02:11:00.443
but you know, they went away and,

02:11:00.943 --> 02:11:01.103
you know,

02:11:01.122 --> 02:11:02.323
and then I got everybody on session and

02:11:02.363 --> 02:11:03.264
session almost went away.

02:11:03.344 --> 02:11:03.663
And it's like,

02:11:04.304 --> 02:11:05.524
you hit a point where people are just

02:11:05.543 --> 02:11:06.725
like, I don't want to keep hopping,

02:11:06.784 --> 02:11:08.524
like just pick something and let's use it.

02:11:09.246 --> 02:11:11.826
And so it's, um, it's definitely really,

02:11:11.846 --> 02:11:14.127
uh,

02:11:14.207 --> 02:11:15.108
I guess what I'm getting at is like,

02:11:15.207 --> 02:11:16.307
I have some sympathy because on the one

02:11:16.328 --> 02:11:17.688
hand I would say like, yeah, just try,

02:11:17.707 --> 02:11:19.109
try to put your family member on whatever

02:11:19.128 --> 02:11:19.809
the best option is,

02:11:19.828 --> 02:11:20.689
whether you believe that's brave or

02:11:20.708 --> 02:11:21.229
Firefox.

02:11:21.590 --> 02:11:22.210
And if they don't like it,

02:11:22.229 --> 02:11:22.750
they can switch,

02:11:22.770 --> 02:11:23.890
but they'll probably get tired of that if

02:11:23.909 --> 02:11:24.650
that keeps happening.

02:11:25.070 --> 02:11:26.610
And I do worry about the mental block

02:11:26.711 --> 02:11:27.091
of them,

02:11:27.152 --> 02:11:28.952
like just being afraid of an unfamiliar

02:11:28.971 --> 02:11:29.131
thing.

02:11:29.152 --> 02:11:30.472
It's really tricky when you're trying to

02:11:30.512 --> 02:11:31.533
help other people like that.

02:11:32.238 --> 02:11:33.059
So I don't know.

02:11:33.279 --> 02:11:34.659
But yeah, I think at that point,

02:11:34.680 --> 02:11:36.541
you kind of have to take the harm

02:11:36.581 --> 02:11:37.301
reduction approach of,

02:11:37.622 --> 02:11:38.442
like you were saying, well,

02:11:38.462 --> 02:11:39.702
at least it's not Chrome.

02:11:40.023 --> 02:11:41.382
Almost anything's better than Chrome.

02:11:41.403 --> 02:11:42.823
So yeah.

02:11:43.967 --> 02:11:45.248
Exactly, yeah.

02:11:45.328 --> 02:11:45.868
I think it's...

02:11:45.889 --> 02:11:48.430
You've got to put things in perspective,

02:11:48.451 --> 02:11:49.492
I think, sometimes.

02:11:50.752 --> 02:11:51.012
Okay,

02:11:51.033 --> 02:11:52.613
so we've got some more questions here.

02:11:53.054 --> 02:11:55.135
What is your opinion about Nosta Protocol,

02:11:55.255 --> 02:11:57.117
a new VPN working on Nosta?

02:11:59.018 --> 02:12:03.280
I think Nosta seems interesting, but,

02:12:03.421 --> 02:12:04.761
I mean, there's...

02:12:06.225 --> 02:12:07.787
We kind of push people more towards the

02:12:07.827 --> 02:12:09.528
Fediverse over NOSTA.

02:12:11.208 --> 02:12:12.529
I know that there is...

02:12:13.329 --> 02:12:15.351
I feel like NOSTA has more of a

02:12:16.032 --> 02:12:19.154
priority about censorship resistance and

02:12:19.274 --> 02:12:19.913
free speech,

02:12:19.993 --> 02:12:24.617
which is good if that's what you really

02:12:24.676 --> 02:12:25.377
are looking for.

02:12:25.997 --> 02:12:29.079
But I think we are kind of big...

02:12:30.235 --> 02:12:32.796
proponents of the Fediverse over Nostr.

02:12:33.936 --> 02:12:35.296
I'm not really sure of the technical

02:12:35.337 --> 02:12:37.438
limitations behind Nostr or anything like

02:12:37.478 --> 02:12:37.698
that.

02:12:38.797 --> 02:12:39.198
Personally,

02:12:39.417 --> 02:12:42.439
I am kind of biased as well because

02:12:42.519 --> 02:12:43.819
I'm also on the Fediverse.

02:12:43.859 --> 02:12:44.720
I'm not on Nostr.

02:12:45.220 --> 02:12:48.980
I haven't really seen any benefits over

02:12:49.001 --> 02:12:49.220
Nostr.

02:12:50.079 --> 02:12:52.301
Like, I had no reason to switch.

02:12:52.320 --> 02:12:54.641
So, I don't know.

02:12:55.282 --> 02:12:56.641
I haven't seen that they're working on a

02:12:56.662 --> 02:12:58.403
new VPN system.

02:12:58.523 --> 02:12:59.823
But I think it's...

02:13:00.003 --> 02:13:02.323
Nostra does seem a lot more popular with

02:13:03.064 --> 02:13:06.086
a very specific niche community of people,

02:13:06.265 --> 02:13:08.225
mainly in the cryptocurrency space.

02:13:08.266 --> 02:13:08.926
So, I think...

02:13:09.787 --> 02:13:11.688
If you're in the cryptocurrency space,

02:13:11.747 --> 02:13:12.908
maybe it would make more sense to be

02:13:12.929 --> 02:13:16.569
on Nosta because I'll just say I don't

02:13:16.590 --> 02:13:17.970
think the people in the Fediverse are

02:13:18.011 --> 02:13:19.332
going to like you posting about

02:13:19.372 --> 02:13:21.153
cryptocurrency and Web three stuff.

02:13:22.432 --> 02:13:23.934
It's just not really part of the community

02:13:23.974 --> 02:13:25.414
there, which is fine.

02:13:27.676 --> 02:13:30.377
I think it's just a different community.

02:13:30.818 --> 02:13:32.217
So, yeah.

02:13:32.257 --> 02:13:33.279
Do you have any thoughts on that or.

02:13:35.119 --> 02:13:35.520
Not really.

02:13:36.619 --> 02:13:38.341
I have never felt compelled to check out

02:13:38.381 --> 02:13:38.940
Noster.

02:13:39.161 --> 02:13:41.202
And I don't really know anything about the

02:13:41.242 --> 02:13:42.402
technical workings of it.

02:13:42.641 --> 02:13:45.882
And yeah, I don't have anything to say.

02:13:48.783 --> 02:13:50.744
Alex asked about the Opera browser.

02:13:51.265 --> 02:13:52.966
I think that kind of falls in the

02:13:53.006 --> 02:13:53.286
same.

02:13:53.305 --> 02:13:53.905
I mean,

02:13:53.945 --> 02:13:55.126
please don't ask us about every single

02:13:55.145 --> 02:13:55.787
browser, guys.

02:13:57.127 --> 02:13:58.567
But Opera, to me,

02:13:58.606 --> 02:13:59.608
is another one of those, like,

02:13:59.667 --> 02:14:00.648
it doesn't really offer anything.

02:14:00.667 --> 02:14:02.007
Especially from a privacy perspective,

02:14:02.028 --> 02:14:03.109
it doesn't offer anything.

02:14:04.047 --> 02:14:05.109
Especially compared to something like

02:14:05.149 --> 02:14:05.429
Brave.

02:14:05.448 --> 02:14:07.070
Okay, especially with Opera.

02:14:07.270 --> 02:14:08.110
I know I said especially a lot.

02:14:08.131 --> 02:14:08.792
I'm really sorry, guys.

02:14:10.734 --> 02:14:11.753
Opera is based on Chrome.

02:14:12.395 --> 02:14:13.355
So at that point,

02:14:13.435 --> 02:14:14.856
you may as well just go use Brave

02:14:14.997 --> 02:14:17.298
and get all the amazing privacy features

02:14:17.338 --> 02:14:18.600
that Opera does not have.

02:14:19.360 --> 02:14:21.282
And chances are that if you have an

02:14:21.403 --> 02:14:22.283
issue with Brave,

02:14:22.904 --> 02:14:24.305
it's probably the same issue you're going

02:14:24.324 --> 02:14:25.626
to have with Opera in the sense of

02:14:25.666 --> 02:14:26.185
like, well,

02:14:26.207 --> 02:14:27.327
I don't like the Chromium Monopoly.

02:14:27.707 --> 02:14:28.668
Opera is not going to fix that.

02:14:29.309 --> 02:14:30.449
So it's kind of one of those things,

02:14:30.470 --> 02:14:31.331
in my opinion, where it's like,

02:14:31.430 --> 02:14:34.474
I don't see a point in opera personally.

02:14:34.873 --> 02:14:35.333
And even I'll,

02:14:35.373 --> 02:14:36.215
I'll go out on a limb and say

02:14:36.255 --> 02:14:36.435
this.

02:14:36.836 --> 02:14:38.457
I think I actually told someone about this

02:14:38.476 --> 02:14:39.318
earlier today, real quick.

02:14:39.358 --> 02:14:41.739
So opera GX is like this version of

02:14:41.880 --> 02:14:43.440
opera that's aimed at gamers.

02:14:43.461 --> 02:14:44.322
And it's like, Oh,

02:14:44.362 --> 02:14:45.922
you can like restrict how much Ram it

02:14:46.042 --> 02:14:48.626
uses and stuff like this and that personal

02:14:48.666 --> 02:14:48.985
opinion.

02:14:49.326 --> 02:14:50.306
And I'm not as tech savvy as I

02:14:50.346 --> 02:14:50.667
used to be.

02:14:50.707 --> 02:14:51.868
So maybe I'm wrong here.

02:14:52.872 --> 02:14:54.253
I feel like it's all smoke and mirrors.

02:14:55.613 --> 02:14:56.194
I real quick,

02:14:56.215 --> 02:14:56.935
if I can tell a story.

02:14:57.314 --> 02:14:59.275
So I used to I used to be

02:14:59.296 --> 02:15:01.237
in the military and a lot of my

02:15:01.277 --> 02:15:02.938
friends were not a lot of my friends,

02:15:02.957 --> 02:15:04.158
but a couple of my friends were into

02:15:04.177 --> 02:15:04.859
like street racing.

02:15:05.399 --> 02:15:06.859
And so they would do things like remove

02:15:06.899 --> 02:15:08.279
the backseat of their car because that's

02:15:08.300 --> 02:15:09.301
just dead weight they don't need.

02:15:09.940 --> 02:15:11.101
And I remember another one of my friends

02:15:11.141 --> 02:15:12.644
who was a mechanic would laugh at them

02:15:12.684 --> 02:15:14.045
when I told him that story because he's

02:15:14.085 --> 02:15:15.846
like, that's like, sure,

02:15:15.867 --> 02:15:17.128
technically you're getting rid of weight,

02:15:17.408 --> 02:15:19.091
but that is so negligible because there's

02:15:19.190 --> 02:15:21.313
other components in the engine that like

02:15:21.353 --> 02:15:23.215
this one little component weighs as much

02:15:23.234 --> 02:15:24.036
as the seats do.

02:15:24.395 --> 02:15:26.137
But if you spend, you know, I mean,

02:15:26.177 --> 02:15:26.358
granted,

02:15:26.377 --> 02:15:27.479
it's going to cost you twice as much,

02:15:27.720 --> 02:15:28.921
but if you spend twice as much,

02:15:29.402 --> 02:15:31.323
you can get the carbon fiber version of

02:15:31.363 --> 02:15:32.564
that little component and

02:15:32.664 --> 02:15:33.947
That's going to shave off more weight.

02:15:34.027 --> 02:15:35.148
And if you keep doing that,

02:15:35.389 --> 02:15:37.091
you're ultimately going to shave off way

02:15:37.131 --> 02:15:37.631
more weight,

02:15:37.690 --> 02:15:39.814
way faster by getting these components

02:15:39.894 --> 02:15:41.336
instead of doing stupid things like taking

02:15:41.376 --> 02:15:42.016
out the backseat.

02:15:42.317 --> 02:15:43.538
And if you're dedicated enough to take out

02:15:43.559 --> 02:15:44.039
the backseat,

02:15:44.239 --> 02:15:45.681
then you should probably just be forking

02:15:45.721 --> 02:15:46.863
over the money for these components.

02:15:47.363 --> 02:15:47.863
And it's like,

02:15:47.904 --> 02:15:48.985
that's kind of how I feel about things

02:15:49.006 --> 02:15:50.186
like Opera GX is like,

02:15:50.768 --> 02:15:52.047
Are you really getting enough of a

02:15:52.088 --> 02:15:54.529
performance boost by like limiting the RAM

02:15:54.569 --> 02:15:56.949
by one gig or whatever you can do?

02:15:57.329 --> 02:15:59.230
Wouldn't it be better to just invest in

02:15:59.751 --> 02:16:00.591
like better – okay,

02:16:00.631 --> 02:16:02.771
obviously now with AI and everything.

02:16:02.813 --> 02:16:03.573
Maybe you can't do that.

02:16:03.853 --> 02:16:06.394
But before the AI boom jacked up the

02:16:06.413 --> 02:16:06.873
price of RAM,

02:16:06.894 --> 02:16:08.234
like wouldn't it be better just to like

02:16:08.274 --> 02:16:10.194
spend eighty bucks and buy more RAM or

02:16:10.234 --> 02:16:10.755
something like that?

02:16:10.774 --> 02:16:11.216
I don't know.

02:16:11.275 --> 02:16:12.155
So –

02:16:12.595 --> 02:16:13.735
I don't really see a point to it.

02:16:14.115 --> 02:16:15.756
I think if you have an issue with

02:16:15.777 --> 02:16:15.997
Brave,

02:16:16.016 --> 02:16:18.356
it probably applies to Opera and just

02:16:18.377 --> 02:16:18.856
isn't worth it.

02:16:18.936 --> 02:16:20.356
But thank you for coming to my TED

02:16:20.377 --> 02:16:20.516
Talk.

02:16:20.537 --> 02:16:24.358
Yeah, I think also the thing with Opera,

02:16:24.457 --> 02:16:28.198
I think, is it kind of changed hands,

02:16:28.238 --> 02:16:29.238
I think, in twenty twelve.

02:16:29.279 --> 02:16:31.658
It was originally like a Norwegian company

02:16:31.878 --> 02:16:33.559
that was like focused very much on like

02:16:33.879 --> 02:16:36.559
customization and like having that they

02:16:36.579 --> 02:16:38.501
had their own browser engine at one point

02:16:38.540 --> 02:16:38.921
as well,

02:16:38.960 --> 02:16:40.501
which people were kind of obsessed with.

02:16:41.261 --> 02:16:43.503
um and then they kind of got bought

02:16:43.522 --> 02:16:44.823
by like i believe it was like a

02:16:44.984 --> 02:16:47.485
chinese consortium or something uh and

02:16:47.504 --> 02:16:49.165
they kind of pivoted directions they were

02:16:49.185 --> 02:16:51.528
they were moving towards like chromium

02:16:51.548 --> 02:16:54.489
based uh instead of maintaining their own

02:16:54.549 --> 02:16:57.432
system um and kind of the developers that

02:16:57.471 --> 02:16:59.233
were really passionate about opera i think

02:16:59.253 --> 02:17:01.033
they moved to vivaldi so like

02:17:02.365 --> 02:17:03.747
But again, though, like Nate was saying,

02:17:03.788 --> 02:17:07.772
like... Like, Vivaldi is fine.

02:17:08.252 --> 02:17:08.593
Like,

02:17:08.753 --> 02:17:10.113
it's not collecting your information

02:17:10.154 --> 02:17:10.415
like...

02:17:12.322 --> 02:17:14.144
chrome or edge or any of these like

02:17:14.203 --> 02:17:16.826
really big big tech browsers but again

02:17:16.867 --> 02:17:18.968
there's better options um and there's more

02:17:19.009 --> 02:17:21.611
comments about browsers here as well did

02:17:21.672 --> 02:17:23.593
you try zen browser how good is that

02:17:23.734 --> 02:17:25.915
i like the ui but i don't know

02:17:25.935 --> 02:17:29.399
about privacy i think it's just firefox so

02:17:30.140 --> 02:17:32.263
we recommend firefox make some changes

02:17:32.622 --> 02:17:34.465
adjust the settings i think it's

02:17:35.105 --> 02:17:39.229
It's just the same as Firefox in privacy

02:17:39.270 --> 02:17:39.750
perspective.

02:17:39.829 --> 02:17:41.252
I think it's actually a little bit better

02:17:41.432 --> 02:17:42.913
because it has a lot of the Mozilla

02:17:42.933 --> 02:17:44.334
stuff stripped out,

02:17:44.375 --> 02:17:46.897
which does make connections without your

02:17:46.916 --> 02:17:47.397
consent.

02:17:48.959 --> 02:17:49.899
I'd say it's a little bit better by

02:17:49.940 --> 02:17:52.002
default, but again,

02:17:53.343 --> 02:17:55.123
you could be using like Moldad browser or

02:17:55.164 --> 02:17:56.765
Brave or something which has better

02:17:56.806 --> 02:17:57.627
protections, so...

02:17:59.474 --> 02:18:01.697
I know Jonah uses Zen and he speaks

02:18:01.736 --> 02:18:03.559
very highly of it for what it's worth.

02:18:04.000 --> 02:18:05.301
Oh, it's sponsored by Tuta.

02:18:05.541 --> 02:18:06.463
I'm on their website right now.

02:18:06.543 --> 02:18:08.265
I did not know that.

02:18:08.306 --> 02:18:10.328
So yeah, it's probably not a bad choice.

02:18:12.162 --> 02:18:12.763
I don't think so.

02:18:12.823 --> 02:18:14.644
I think like when we talk about privacy,

02:18:14.683 --> 02:18:16.085
it's fine, but I think, yeah,

02:18:16.406 --> 02:18:17.606
it's missing some of those extra

02:18:17.627 --> 02:18:18.208
protections.

02:18:18.247 --> 02:18:19.429
I don't think they have as much of

02:18:19.449 --> 02:18:20.029
a focus on,

02:18:20.950 --> 02:18:22.652
on like fingerprinting protection and all

02:18:22.672 --> 02:18:24.754
this stuff like Brave and Morbad and

02:18:24.853 --> 02:18:25.593
Firefox have.

02:18:25.613 --> 02:18:27.036
Um,

02:18:27.056 --> 02:18:28.256
there was another comment here from

02:18:28.377 --> 02:18:29.218
Purring Pudding,

02:18:29.698 --> 02:18:31.680
general thoughts on Thunder Mail Pro.

02:18:32.320 --> 02:18:32.540
Um,

02:18:34.630 --> 02:18:36.832
I think I've been testing it out a

02:18:36.852 --> 02:18:39.754
little bit and I kind of put together

02:18:39.793 --> 02:18:41.354
some thoughts on the forum about it,

02:18:41.975 --> 02:18:42.695
which I found.

02:18:42.976 --> 02:18:44.117
So I'm just going to read what I

02:18:44.137 --> 02:18:44.397
wrote.

02:18:46.480 --> 02:18:49.561
I got access to the closed beta.

02:18:49.602 --> 02:18:51.423
I've just been kind of putting together my

02:18:51.663 --> 02:18:56.064
thoughts about it for a while for some

02:18:56.183 --> 02:19:00.504
issues that I had with the service.

02:19:00.905 --> 02:19:02.066
So I'm just going to read what I

02:19:02.085 --> 02:19:02.605
wrote here.

02:19:03.445 --> 02:19:05.227
Servers are hosted on AWS,

02:19:05.266 --> 02:19:07.948
so Amazon Web Services in Germany though.

02:19:08.188 --> 02:19:09.368
So it is that they have

02:19:10.458 --> 02:19:11.859
Kind of a new thing that Amazon's been

02:19:11.879 --> 02:19:13.861
doing is they have European servers now,

02:19:13.880 --> 02:19:14.822
which I think is good.

02:19:15.802 --> 02:19:17.123
I think it's still better than being

02:19:17.164 --> 02:19:18.924
hosted in the U.S., in my opinion.

02:19:19.466 --> 02:19:20.947
No two-factor authentication.

02:19:21.127 --> 02:19:22.188
They said they're working on it, though.

02:19:22.208 --> 02:19:23.888
It'll be out this year.

02:19:24.088 --> 02:19:26.351
No inbound PGP email encryption.

02:19:26.450 --> 02:19:27.833
It's on the roadmap for this year,

02:19:28.192 --> 02:19:31.976
but it will be released soon, TMR.

02:19:33.316 --> 02:19:36.518
No DNSSEC or Dane,

02:19:36.538 --> 02:19:39.879
which is basically a way to verify the

02:19:41.800 --> 02:19:43.721
authenticity of an email.

02:19:44.262 --> 02:19:46.563
DMARC reports were being sent to

02:19:47.442 --> 02:19:49.424
Cloudflare, which is like, you know,

02:19:49.584 --> 02:19:50.924
it doesn't contain the message data,

02:19:50.944 --> 02:19:53.286
but it's like a lot of metadata,

02:19:53.685 --> 02:19:56.207
like IP addresses and

02:19:57.087 --> 02:19:59.909
sent and received addresses and all that

02:19:59.930 --> 02:20:00.469
sort of stuff.

02:20:01.150 --> 02:20:02.752
You don't want that going to a third-party

02:20:02.791 --> 02:20:03.952
company if you can avoid it.

02:20:05.154 --> 02:20:06.635
What else was there?

02:20:06.674 --> 02:20:11.018
They had the mta-sts setup,

02:20:11.058 --> 02:20:14.520
which basically it's a way of allowing

02:20:14.600 --> 02:20:16.961
email servers to know whether a server

02:20:17.481 --> 02:20:19.984
supports TLS encryption.

02:20:21.325 --> 02:20:22.945
Same thing with DNSSEC and DEAN.

02:20:23.005 --> 02:20:24.447
It's like sort of how that works.

02:20:24.827 --> 02:20:26.129
It verifies the certificate

02:20:27.320 --> 02:20:31.370
to see whether the TLS certificate that

02:20:31.390 --> 02:20:32.212
you're connecting to

02:20:33.484 --> 02:20:36.204
is valid and stuff like that.

02:20:36.245 --> 02:20:38.126
So are they also using payments through

02:20:38.226 --> 02:20:38.626
Paddle,

02:20:38.726 --> 02:20:41.207
which Paddle isn't particularly privacy

02:20:41.246 --> 02:20:41.686
respecting.

02:20:41.766 --> 02:20:43.208
I would have expected them to do something

02:20:43.847 --> 02:20:46.929
self-hosted or something a bit different

02:20:47.049 --> 02:20:49.010
like Tudor and Proton are currently doing.

02:20:49.649 --> 02:20:50.090
Again, though,

02:20:50.149 --> 02:20:52.111
I think this product is not really aimed

02:20:52.130 --> 02:20:53.891
at the same audience as Proton and Tudor.

02:20:53.951 --> 02:20:56.111
I think it's more of just like a

02:20:56.172 --> 02:21:02.594
product of a product of

02:21:05.558 --> 02:21:07.359
Thunderbird it's like if you use

02:21:07.379 --> 02:21:10.040
Thunderbird you like your email being

02:21:10.079 --> 02:21:13.800
hosted like outside of big tech you can

02:21:13.880 --> 02:21:17.402
sign up to them instead again it's better

02:21:17.422 --> 02:21:20.243
than Google it's better than Outlook it's

02:21:20.263 --> 02:21:23.344
better than Apple but I think this it's

02:21:23.385 --> 02:21:26.105
still very much a very early project and

02:21:26.245 --> 02:21:26.786
I'm kind of

02:21:27.786 --> 02:21:29.186
wanting to get in touch with their team

02:21:29.207 --> 02:21:31.748
a little bit to see more specifics about

02:21:32.308 --> 02:21:33.549
if they're going to address any of these

02:21:33.590 --> 02:21:34.569
concerns that I had.

02:21:35.210 --> 02:21:37.332
Because I think it's only going to benefit

02:21:37.471 --> 02:21:39.653
users of this service in the long run.

02:21:40.433 --> 02:21:41.513
You can check out the thread.

02:21:41.533 --> 02:21:42.854
There's a thread on the forum on

02:21:42.975 --> 02:21:44.595
discuss.privacyguides.net.

02:21:45.697 --> 02:21:47.497
Thunderbird Pro and Thunder Mail

02:21:47.558 --> 02:21:48.157
announced.

02:21:48.518 --> 02:21:49.259
So check that out.

02:21:49.379 --> 02:21:51.000
There's more discussion there if you're

02:21:51.079 --> 02:21:51.620
interested.

02:21:51.639 --> 02:21:55.941
I also think it's very expensive.

02:21:56.323 --> 02:21:56.643
It was...

02:21:57.984 --> 02:22:02.007
six dollars a month paid yearly USD so

02:22:02.147 --> 02:22:04.870
that was about a hundred a hundred

02:22:04.909 --> 02:22:07.111
Australian which is quite a lot compared

02:22:07.152 --> 02:22:09.915
to Proton who offers similar service for

02:22:09.934 --> 02:22:13.097
like half of that so it's a little

02:22:13.138 --> 02:22:13.917
bit of a tough sell

02:22:15.039 --> 02:22:17.380
There's also some additional services that

02:22:17.421 --> 02:22:20.202
it includes, such as Thunder Mail Send,

02:22:20.243 --> 02:22:22.204
which you can send files and then encrypt

02:22:22.245 --> 02:22:22.966
it to other people.

02:22:23.525 --> 02:22:25.567
There's also a calendar scheduling service

02:22:25.628 --> 02:22:26.448
included as well.

02:22:26.468 --> 02:22:29.470
I think both of those are quite

02:22:29.531 --> 02:22:30.752
interesting in

02:22:32.735 --> 02:22:34.675
I think they definitely offer a unique

02:22:34.716 --> 02:22:35.117
service,

02:22:35.197 --> 02:22:36.736
but I don't think it's really something

02:22:36.756 --> 02:22:38.679
that we can recommend switching from

02:22:38.718 --> 02:22:40.259
Proton, at least at this stage.

02:22:41.000 --> 02:22:43.540
It definitely has the possibility of being

02:22:43.581 --> 02:22:44.281
really good, though,

02:22:44.402 --> 02:22:47.423
because one of the really cool things

02:22:47.443 --> 02:22:48.904
about this service is it's based on

02:22:49.103 --> 02:22:50.504
stalwart email server,

02:22:50.524 --> 02:22:52.867
which is one of these self-hosted email

02:22:52.906 --> 02:22:54.747
server software that we recommend.

02:22:55.247 --> 02:22:56.247
It's written in Rust.

02:22:56.529 --> 02:22:58.250
They have a big focus on privacy and

02:22:58.290 --> 02:22:58.750
security.

02:22:58.770 --> 02:22:59.430
They have a lot of...

02:23:03.717 --> 02:23:05.558
quick development they've really built

02:23:05.597 --> 02:23:07.738
this product up quite quickly and they've

02:23:07.759 --> 02:23:09.479
had a focus on privacy and security from

02:23:09.500 --> 02:23:12.582
the start which and just making it easy

02:23:12.602 --> 02:23:14.583
to self-host your own email server which

02:23:14.863 --> 02:23:16.905
I'm really a big fan of because I

02:23:16.924 --> 02:23:18.986
think the more people that are taking

02:23:19.046 --> 02:23:21.627
control of that data the better and if

02:23:21.666 --> 02:23:23.869
we can make it easier because originally

02:23:24.449 --> 02:23:26.489
like I can remember setting up email

02:23:26.530 --> 02:23:27.230
servers like

02:23:28.154 --> 02:23:29.614
five or ten years ago it was like

02:23:29.774 --> 02:23:31.797
not fun it was like kind of a

02:23:31.816 --> 02:23:34.039
time-consuming process it was not very

02:23:34.099 --> 02:23:35.579
clear if you were setting it up with

02:23:35.620 --> 02:23:38.462
secure defaults and stalwart kind of

02:23:38.622 --> 02:23:41.325
automates that whole process for you so i

02:23:41.444 --> 02:23:43.166
don't know i think it has a potential

02:23:43.186 --> 02:23:45.629
to be quite good but i don't think

02:23:45.668 --> 02:23:48.450
it's going to compete with proton or tutor

02:23:48.550 --> 02:23:50.872
at least currently right now

02:23:55.167 --> 02:23:58.030
I think we had a quick one from

02:23:58.090 --> 02:23:59.431
Swiss kill Euro office.

02:23:59.450 --> 02:24:00.290
What are your thoughts?

02:24:01.152 --> 02:24:01.912
Do you have any thoughts?

02:24:04.414 --> 02:24:05.394
It's not even out yet.

02:24:05.574 --> 02:24:08.636
And not really.

02:24:08.656 --> 02:24:09.316
That's a fair point.

02:24:09.397 --> 02:24:09.877
Yeah.

02:24:10.057 --> 02:24:11.378
I don't really have any thoughts.

02:24:11.997 --> 02:24:12.558
I don't do,

02:24:13.478 --> 02:24:15.280
I guess I do some online collaboration

02:24:15.299 --> 02:24:15.900
just because, you know,

02:24:15.921 --> 02:24:17.320
like these notes and writing the script

02:24:17.341 --> 02:24:17.881
and everything.

02:24:18.522 --> 02:24:20.022
But I honestly, like for myself,

02:24:20.063 --> 02:24:21.504
I just use LibreOffice and,

02:24:21.891 --> 02:24:23.173
It's not the prettiest UI,

02:24:23.233 --> 02:24:25.093
but it's definitely gotten a lot better,

02:24:25.213 --> 02:24:26.034
and it works.

02:24:26.235 --> 02:24:27.194
It has everything I need.

02:24:27.274 --> 02:24:28.656
Everything is more or less where I expect

02:24:28.695 --> 02:24:30.057
to find it.

02:24:30.117 --> 02:24:31.778
For online collaboration, again,

02:24:31.837 --> 02:24:33.179
we don't do too much of that.

02:24:33.259 --> 02:24:36.341
It's mostly just updating the show notes

02:24:36.540 --> 02:24:40.323
and writing scripts every week or every

02:24:40.362 --> 02:24:41.064
other week or whatever.

02:24:41.103 --> 02:24:43.784
So yeah, I don't know.

02:24:43.965 --> 02:24:45.445
It's not too much of a concern to

02:24:45.486 --> 02:24:46.506
me, to be totally honest.

02:24:48.359 --> 02:24:48.939
Yeah, same.

02:24:49.039 --> 02:24:49.939
I use LibreOffice.

02:24:50.019 --> 02:24:52.360
LibreOffice Calc is kind of great,

02:24:52.479 --> 02:24:52.860
actually.

02:24:52.920 --> 02:24:53.440
I think it's,

02:24:53.680 --> 02:24:55.239
I would say it's like in some ways

02:24:55.280 --> 02:24:56.820
better than Microsoft's one.

02:24:56.941 --> 02:25:00.560
But some of the other ones like Writer

02:25:00.640 --> 02:25:02.861
and I don't know,

02:25:02.881 --> 02:25:04.481
definitely leave some things to be

02:25:04.522 --> 02:25:04.922
desired.

02:25:04.941 --> 02:25:06.141
But I think, I don't know,

02:25:06.221 --> 02:25:07.862
I think it's better to have more options

02:25:07.903 --> 02:25:08.343
than not.

02:25:08.403 --> 02:25:09.503
It's kind of annoying, though,

02:25:09.522 --> 02:25:10.263
that that keeps,

02:25:10.503 --> 02:25:12.263
everything keeps forking over and over

02:25:12.304 --> 02:25:12.564
again.

02:25:12.584 --> 02:25:13.863
I'm pretty sure OpenOffice

02:25:14.843 --> 02:25:16.424
It's open office was like a fork of

02:25:16.444 --> 02:25:17.065
something else.

02:25:17.145 --> 02:25:19.986
And then now there's a fork of only

02:25:20.066 --> 02:25:20.467
office.

02:25:20.566 --> 02:25:21.567
Was it only office?

02:25:21.667 --> 02:25:24.209
Yeah, only office is a fork.

02:25:24.329 --> 02:25:24.770
Yeah,

02:25:25.149 --> 02:25:27.070
I think it's I think LibreOffice was first

02:25:27.130 --> 02:25:29.952
or maybe open office was first because I

02:25:30.013 --> 02:25:31.613
used to use the Apache open office one.

02:25:32.514 --> 02:25:34.296
And then yeah,

02:25:34.335 --> 02:25:36.176
I think only office was a fork of

02:25:36.217 --> 02:25:36.596
something.

02:25:36.617 --> 02:25:38.237
And now Euro office is like a fork

02:25:38.257 --> 02:25:39.257
of only office.

02:25:39.278 --> 02:25:41.520
I don't know.

02:25:41.780 --> 02:25:43.281
It's it gets hard to keep track.

02:25:45.013 --> 02:25:47.635
Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

02:25:47.854 --> 02:25:49.194
I didn't really have anything else to add.

02:25:49.215 --> 02:25:50.335
I was just, yeah,

02:25:50.435 --> 02:25:52.095
it is kind of confusing to keep track

02:25:52.115 --> 02:25:52.456
of things.

02:25:52.476 --> 02:25:53.175
Yeah, I think you're right.

02:25:53.195 --> 02:25:57.397
The only office is different to

02:25:57.438 --> 02:25:59.058
LibreOffice, like a separate project.

02:25:59.097 --> 02:26:00.959
But yeah, yeah, kind of weird,

02:26:00.978 --> 02:26:01.738
kind of confusing.

02:26:01.759 --> 02:26:02.799
I don't know.

02:26:02.918 --> 02:26:03.939
I like LibreOffice.

02:26:04.299 --> 02:26:05.000
It works fine.

02:26:05.840 --> 02:26:06.319
It's fine.

02:26:06.700 --> 02:26:08.720
It's not that pretty, but it's fine.

02:26:10.083 --> 02:26:10.183
Yeah.

02:26:10.202 --> 02:26:12.645
The, the, the PowerPoint one presentation,

02:26:12.665 --> 02:26:13.585
that one leaves a little bit to be

02:26:13.605 --> 02:26:13.966
desired.

02:26:14.046 --> 02:26:15.448
I agree with you, but yeah,

02:26:15.507 --> 02:26:16.808
writers fine for me,

02:26:16.968 --> 02:26:18.829
but I also don't do a lot of

02:26:18.851 --> 02:26:19.031
writing.

02:26:19.070 --> 02:26:19.490
Like ninety,

02:26:19.730 --> 02:26:21.092
ninety percent of the writing I do now

02:26:21.131 --> 02:26:22.414
is like in the browser, you know,

02:26:22.433 --> 02:26:24.055
like I'm writing a blog post and it's

02:26:24.075 --> 02:26:25.376
going to stay in the ghost drafts or

02:26:25.456 --> 02:26:25.675
again,

02:26:25.716 --> 02:26:27.657
like I'm writing the scripts and the show

02:26:27.698 --> 02:26:30.200
notes and those stay in next cloud,

02:26:30.239 --> 02:26:31.620
which I know is,

02:26:31.762 --> 02:26:32.962
is a fork of something.

02:26:32.983 --> 02:26:34.042
I think that one is only office.

02:26:34.103 --> 02:26:35.645
I can't remember, but it's a,

02:26:37.049 --> 02:26:38.970
I don't feel like I open Writer very

02:26:39.070 --> 02:26:40.111
often these days.

02:26:40.211 --> 02:26:42.692
But I was going to say, for me,

02:26:42.833 --> 02:26:46.334
it's a case of like, I think,

02:26:46.815 --> 02:26:47.736
so there's this concept,

02:26:47.755 --> 02:26:48.316
for those who don't know,

02:26:48.355 --> 02:26:49.777
called Dunbar's number, which is,

02:26:50.316 --> 02:26:51.358
it's basically like,

02:26:53.158 --> 02:26:54.459
they say it's around a hundred and fifty

02:26:54.479 --> 02:26:54.760
people.

02:26:54.840 --> 02:26:56.159
There's only about a hundred and fifty

02:26:56.200 --> 02:26:57.921
people that you can have a meaningful

02:26:57.960 --> 02:26:58.561
connection with.

02:26:59.320 --> 02:27:00.701
And everybody else is kind of like

02:27:00.781 --> 02:27:01.422
background noise.

02:27:01.441 --> 02:27:02.561
And I know that sounds really harsh,

02:27:02.582 --> 02:27:04.083
but it's just the way humans are wired.

02:27:04.122 --> 02:27:06.203
Like we're not wired to keep track of

02:27:06.263 --> 02:27:08.764
thousands of people and care deeply about

02:27:08.825 --> 02:27:09.424
their lives.

02:27:09.864 --> 02:27:10.844
And it doesn't mean you hate them or

02:27:10.885 --> 02:27:11.126
anything.

02:27:11.185 --> 02:27:11.886
It doesn't mean you're rude.

02:27:11.966 --> 02:27:13.345
It just means like if you run into

02:27:13.386 --> 02:27:14.367
one of those people who's not in your

02:27:14.426 --> 02:27:15.787
one fifty, you might forget to ask them,

02:27:15.826 --> 02:27:16.548
be like, oh, hey,

02:27:16.927 --> 02:27:18.048
how's how's your job going?

02:27:18.087 --> 02:27:18.789
How's that thing going?

02:27:18.828 --> 02:27:20.588
How's your friend that you were telling me

02:27:20.609 --> 02:27:20.728
about?

02:27:20.769 --> 02:27:22.250
Like you just it's just hard to keep

02:27:22.290 --> 02:27:22.850
track of people.

02:27:23.229 --> 02:27:24.191
And I feel like it's the same way

02:27:24.210 --> 02:27:24.851
for causes.

02:27:24.911 --> 02:27:27.352
Like everybody has a certain number of

02:27:27.412 --> 02:27:27.631
like

02:27:29.015 --> 02:27:31.297
philosophical causes like the environment

02:27:31.356 --> 02:27:32.816
or privacy or, you know,

02:27:32.897 --> 02:27:34.618
digital sovereignty or whatever.

02:27:35.278 --> 02:27:39.119
And I think it's hard for people to

02:27:39.158 --> 02:27:40.959
care passionately about those things.

02:27:41.000 --> 02:27:41.639
Like, again, you know,

02:27:41.719 --> 02:27:42.920
even if you're not an environmentalist,

02:27:43.180 --> 02:27:44.341
you probably still turn the light off when

02:27:44.361 --> 02:27:44.861
you leave the room.

02:27:44.921 --> 02:27:45.140
Right.

02:27:45.181 --> 02:27:45.941
Or something like that.

02:27:46.480 --> 02:27:47.141
But, you know,

02:27:47.201 --> 02:27:48.881
you may not necessarily go to a protest

02:27:48.922 --> 02:27:49.361
or something.

02:27:49.481 --> 02:27:49.781
And that's,

02:27:49.922 --> 02:27:51.462
that's how I feel about open source and

02:27:51.503 --> 02:27:51.962
licensing.

02:27:52.063 --> 02:27:54.564
Like there's so many people that like, Oh,

02:27:54.724 --> 02:27:54.904
like,

02:27:55.805 --> 02:27:57.227
organic maps for example to be totally

02:27:57.246 --> 02:27:59.269
honest like comaps is a fork of organic

02:27:59.289 --> 02:28:00.790
maps because there was like some kind of

02:28:00.810 --> 02:28:02.372
like licensing thing or something or other

02:28:02.433 --> 02:28:03.554
I know there were other issues too but

02:28:03.574 --> 02:28:04.495
like that was a big part of it

02:28:04.536 --> 02:28:06.378
was like something about that and I'm

02:28:06.417 --> 02:28:08.239
sitting here like I just don't care and

02:28:08.360 --> 02:28:09.822
and like I'm glad that people do because

02:28:09.842 --> 02:28:11.584
that is important stuff that does have

02:28:12.043 --> 02:28:14.608
repercussions but like I just I have so

02:28:14.628 --> 02:28:16.469
many other things already that I care

02:28:16.489 --> 02:28:18.412
about that when it's like oh there's this

02:28:18.471 --> 02:28:21.275
new like whatever office suite because the

02:28:21.355 --> 02:28:23.718
other one was AGPL instead of MIT or

02:28:23.737 --> 02:28:24.860
what you can tell I don't even know

02:28:24.879 --> 02:28:26.181
what I'm talking about right now and I'm

02:28:26.200 --> 02:28:27.802
like I just don't that's so above my

02:28:27.843 --> 02:28:29.646
level I don't care if it's good

02:28:30.146 --> 02:28:30.886
It's, you know, we,

02:28:30.926 --> 02:28:31.967
we talk about this with like signal,

02:28:32.006 --> 02:28:33.007
for example, like if it's good,

02:28:33.048 --> 02:28:33.968
if it's got features I like,

02:28:33.987 --> 02:28:34.549
if it looks good,

02:28:34.869 --> 02:28:35.808
if you make a good argument,

02:28:35.869 --> 02:28:36.850
I'll switch happily.

02:28:36.989 --> 02:28:38.630
I don't mind, but it's just like,

02:28:38.691 --> 02:28:40.432
I'm not going to switch on that grounds

02:28:40.471 --> 02:28:41.753
because there's only so many things I can

02:28:41.772 --> 02:28:42.112
care about.

02:28:42.132 --> 02:28:42.573
And for me,

02:28:42.653 --> 02:28:43.994
like that kind of stuff is not one

02:28:44.033 --> 02:28:44.293
of them.

02:28:44.373 --> 02:28:45.854
So yeah, that's,

02:28:45.915 --> 02:28:47.316
that's kind of why I'm on LibreOffice

02:28:47.335 --> 02:28:48.835
because it's free and it works and it's

02:28:48.877 --> 02:28:53.179
intuitive and yeah, but I don't know.

02:28:54.485 --> 02:28:57.186
definitely i think we are definitely

02:28:57.346 --> 02:28:59.087
hitting almost the two hour and thirty

02:28:59.108 --> 02:29:00.849
minute mark here i think we need to

02:29:01.009 --> 02:29:03.011
start closing out the stream but thank you

02:29:03.050 --> 02:29:04.852
to everybody who's been leaving questions

02:29:04.891 --> 02:29:07.112
and stuff um it's been it's been great

02:29:07.414 --> 02:29:09.534
um to chat with you all and thanks

02:29:09.575 --> 02:29:11.936
so much for again the donations that we

02:29:11.977 --> 02:29:15.058
had that was really nice um but yeah

02:29:15.078 --> 02:29:16.138
i think we're definitely gonna have to

02:29:16.179 --> 02:29:19.001
start closing out the stream here um just

02:29:19.021 --> 02:29:20.162
to respect everyone's time

02:29:21.103 --> 02:29:21.704
Agreed.

02:29:21.885 --> 02:29:23.005
Yeah, I'm at a standing desk,

02:29:23.046 --> 02:29:24.567
so I'm getting a little tired.

02:29:26.569 --> 02:29:27.811
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