WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.900 Matt: Hey Steve, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:02.259 --> 00:00:05.859 Steve: Hey Matt, good to see you. 00:00:06.670 --> 00:00:08.550 Matt: You can follow him, Steve J. 00:00:08.600 --> 00:00:11.449 Burge on Twitter slash X. 00:00:11.740 --> 00:00:14.259 Search for Steve Burge on Blue Sky. 00:00:14.300 --> 00:00:15.730 I'm sure you're everywhere. 00:00:16.630 --> 00:00:22.430 I don't want to say you're an enigma to me, but you just have a lot of stuff. 00:00:23.220 --> 00:00:25.775 Actually, remind Me of me! 00:00:26.075 --> 00:00:28.645 With so many different, things going on. 00:00:28.885 --> 00:00:33.125 You have PublishPress, you have WP Metaslider, you have Taxopress, at least 00:00:33.135 --> 00:00:38.654 that's the Twitter handle, and then you have Log tivity, and Steve Burge is your 00:00:38.654 --> 00:00:40.075 personal homepage with all the stuff. 00:00:40.094 --> 00:00:43.144 20 years of experience, 12 books you've written. 00:00:44.364 --> 00:00:45.874 I don't know, man, how do you do it? 00:00:45.885 --> 00:00:47.815 How do you keep up with all this stuff? 00:00:47.825 --> 00:00:51.845 Do you have like a team of a thousand, or are you just all in on AI and your AI 00:00:51.845 --> 00:00:53.094 agents are building everything for you? 00:00:53.380 --> 00:00:54.150 Steve: Neither of those. 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:59.810 we have a, we have a team of, 13, 14 at the moment and, I, I really 00:00:59.810 --> 00:01:01.660 haven't done too much to AI in my life. 00:01:03.645 --> 00:01:04.694 Matt: Well, I'm surprised. 00:01:04.694 --> 00:01:06.554 I'm surprised people haven't been knocked. 00:01:06.554 --> 00:01:08.565 Oh, well, let me, let me frame it this way. 00:01:08.575 --> 00:01:09.504 A lot of hype. 00:01:09.505 --> 00:01:12.495 We see every, every company talking about their AI thing. 00:01:12.605 --> 00:01:15.315 Are your customers not knocking on the door saying, Hey, Steve, 00:01:15.334 --> 00:01:17.035 give us some AI in your product. 00:01:18.010 --> 00:01:23.400 Steve: You know, the best use that I have for AI in my life is, my kids 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.250 are old enough to be doing homework that I can't help them with now. 00:01:26.790 --> 00:01:30.680 Like, their math homework is too complicated for me now. 00:01:31.379 --> 00:01:35.369 And so they'll sit there often with chat GPT trying to get answers on 00:01:35.370 --> 00:01:36.689 their advanced algebra homework. 00:01:37.329 --> 00:01:39.550 that's about the most of AI in my life so far. 00:01:39.550 --> 00:01:43.169 AI 00:01:43.304 --> 00:01:45.585 Matt: with his math homework, and I'm like, oh god, I'd want to grade 00:01:45.585 --> 00:01:47.535 all this, and I just snap a photo. 00:01:48.185 --> 00:01:51.214 I snap a photo of it, and I go, just grade this. 00:01:51.214 --> 00:01:54.264 But, just to give myself some credit, so everybody doesn't think I'm a bad 00:01:54.265 --> 00:01:57.955 parent, I got three young boys, and when they come home, it's three young boys 00:01:57.955 --> 00:01:59.815 trying to get them to do homework, baths. 00:02:00.190 --> 00:02:01.940 Food, eat, clean up. 00:02:02.320 --> 00:02:04.230 It's, you know, if my wife isn't around, it's chaos. 00:02:04.240 --> 00:02:07.840 So sometimes I, I cheat and I take a picture with ChatGPT and that helps me. 00:02:08.130 --> 00:02:09.760 at least it helps me for the homework side of it. 00:02:10.100 --> 00:02:11.620 Steve: is not helping with any of those other things. 00:02:12.265 --> 00:02:14.045 Matt: No, no, it's not making the food. 00:02:14.055 --> 00:02:14.965 It's not cleaning the house. 00:02:15.355 --> 00:02:16.165 I wish it did though. 00:02:16.405 --> 00:02:20.075 talk to me about the, talk to me about your background in, in publishing books. 00:02:20.075 --> 00:02:23.195 We're going to talk about publishing, you know, as we were in the green room 00:02:23.195 --> 00:02:26.084 before we went into this, but tell me about the background of, of writing books. 00:02:26.084 --> 00:02:28.065 What came first, the books or the, the plugins? 00:02:28.874 --> 00:02:30.265 Steve: oh the books definitely. 00:02:30.295 --> 00:02:36.685 I used to be a teacher and, wanted, wanted to teach and write books, that 00:02:36.685 --> 00:02:40.934 was, the thing I still love, you can see behind me, I've got shelves full of 00:02:40.934 --> 00:02:45.804 books here, and I really, I just couldn't make enough money as a teacher, I was 00:02:45.804 --> 00:02:52.169 a teacher until, a wife and kids and a mortgage came along, and, I was living 00:02:52.169 --> 00:02:54.289 in Georgia, north of Atlanta at the time. 00:02:54.949 --> 00:02:57.369 as you can tell from my accent, that's where I was born and bred. 00:02:57.369 --> 00:02:58.319 Matt: Where were you born and 00:02:58.594 --> 00:03:03.424 Steve: I'm from England originally, but my wife, my wife is American. 00:03:03.944 --> 00:03:06.284 And we moved to a small town in Georgia. 00:03:06.864 --> 00:03:10.824 And I think after two or three years of teaching there, my 00:03:10.834 --> 00:03:14.304 salary was 30, 000 or so. 00:03:15.254 --> 00:03:22.144 So I needed, I needed to make more money, needed to pay the bills and I 00:03:23.024 --> 00:03:29.574 had been dabbling in open source and decided to take my teaching skills 00:03:29.574 --> 00:03:33.054 and combine them with open source and launched a training business. 00:03:33.684 --> 00:03:36.164 we, we originally were doing it in person. 00:03:36.164 --> 00:03:38.154 I'd fly around the country and. 00:03:38.649 --> 00:03:43.839 And train people how to use WordPress, Drupal, Joomla, some PHP training. 00:03:44.429 --> 00:03:46.089 And it was wonderful. 00:03:46.089 --> 00:03:50.559 I got to explore the country, went to pretty much 49 states. 00:03:50.559 --> 00:03:54.869 I think doing that, no one ever invited me to Hawaii, but I did get to go to 00:03:54.869 --> 00:04:00.769 Alaska once to, to do some training up there and did lots of government work. 00:04:00.769 --> 00:04:03.619 This was 2009, 2010. 00:04:04.009 --> 00:04:10.079 We'd be up in Washington DC doing lots of training and that ended almost on one day. 00:04:12.339 --> 00:04:21.109 You know the the guy from Texas Ted Cruz, the the senator, well back in like 2013 00:04:22.209 --> 00:04:23.829 he decided to shut down the government. 00:04:26.159 --> 00:04:31.489 Basically he put a hold on things and the government shut down for about three 00:04:31.489 --> 00:04:37.694 weeks and all the training contacts we had Just disappeared overnight. 00:04:37.934 --> 00:04:43.334 I, I thought we were really clever that we had, lots of, lots of clients. 00:04:43.374 --> 00:04:48.404 Our clients were the Department of Energy, Department of Veterans Affairs, Department 00:04:48.404 --> 00:04:50.514 of Defense, Department of Energy. 00:04:51.714 --> 00:04:55.654 Well, it turned out that was just really one client, the government. 00:04:56.274 --> 00:04:58.804 And so that disappeared almost overnight. 00:04:59.584 --> 00:05:00.804 it never really came back. 00:05:00.844 --> 00:05:04.474 Lots of people, had to push their training budgets a year. 00:05:05.024 --> 00:05:08.424 And then a year down the line, things were different and had moved on. 00:05:09.124 --> 00:05:14.054 so I turned my attention to books and we ended up writing a WordPress 00:05:14.064 --> 00:05:16.144 book, a Drupal book, a Joomla book. 00:05:16.534 --> 00:05:18.244 it was all written on WordPress. 00:05:18.244 --> 00:05:19.624 There's a platform called Pressbooks. 00:05:21.514 --> 00:05:22.604 I'm not sure if you've come across them, 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:24.899 Matt: I think I have yeah, 00:05:25.074 --> 00:05:28.314 Steve: you can basically write everything on in the classic editor. 00:05:29.304 --> 00:05:32.124 And they will do everything else from there. 00:05:32.124 --> 00:05:37.964 You can upload your images and they will do an export that you can then send to 00:05:38.004 --> 00:05:44.194 Amazon and they will do a print run of your books whenever anyone orders them. 00:05:44.744 --> 00:05:47.944 They will do a, a paperback copy of a book for you. 00:05:48.764 --> 00:05:51.224 And it was a lot of fun for a while. 00:05:51.774 --> 00:05:55.444 Matt: I recently acquired and not to make this about me Steve, but you know, 00:05:55.444 --> 00:05:57.104 it's my show No, I'm just kidding. 00:05:58.034 --> 00:06:06.724 I recently acquired Master WP and I You know, listen, I have no immediate plans 00:06:06.764 --> 00:06:12.214 as, as I do with most things, I sort of like launch them, I talk about them, 00:06:12.244 --> 00:06:17.514 I think about them, I iterate on the idea and then I start something small. 00:06:18.014 --> 00:06:21.984 And I think, and this is for anybody's, anyone listening 00:06:21.984 --> 00:06:23.334 to this as an opportunity. 00:06:23.634 --> 00:06:28.364 I think training for WordPress and educating around WordPress is actually 00:06:28.834 --> 00:06:34.384 even in the face of AI and so much on YouTube that those kinds of things are 00:06:34.384 --> 00:06:40.714 so immediate but so, I'll use the word shallow, they're immediate but shallow 00:06:41.014 --> 00:06:47.084 and I think, you know, people might have, an affinity with, you know what, give me 00:06:47.084 --> 00:06:51.669 somebody in person to Give me somebody who's been doing this who can come fly 00:06:51.669 --> 00:06:56.929 out to me again or at least Connect with me on a zoom call and like walk me and my 00:06:56.999 --> 00:07:00.879 my team through something Do you what's your what's your gut tell you on training? 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:04.879 What is it could it have a comeback even in the face of 00:07:04.949 --> 00:07:06.569 all this content in front of us? 00:07:06.619 --> 00:07:07.359 Is there a chance? 00:07:08.694 --> 00:07:09.684 Steve: No, sadly. 00:07:10.384 --> 00:07:11.074 I wish it would. 00:07:11.114 --> 00:07:15.554 I, I much, I do plugin development now. 00:07:15.844 --> 00:07:17.444 And it's definitely a lot more lonely. 00:07:17.724 --> 00:07:22.464 I, it was a wonderful experience actually doing the, the human to human interaction. 00:07:23.084 --> 00:07:25.984 talking with people, physically sitting down next to them and helping them. 00:07:26.624 --> 00:07:31.194 But I remember the day almost instantly when I realized it was dead that a 00:07:31.204 --> 00:07:36.374 company flew me out to Silicon Valley to San Francisco Big semiconductor 00:07:36.394 --> 00:07:41.314 company and I was there to do a week of training for them Walked in that 00:07:41.314 --> 00:07:45.554 big conference room and there was a TV in front of me and there was basically 00:07:45.564 --> 00:07:51.729 14 guys in India all zooming in This is the future in person training. 00:07:51.729 --> 00:07:54.059 It was wonderful, but it's time to move on. 00:07:55.074 --> 00:07:58.194 Matt: But what okay, so let me just Go back to that. 00:07:58.234 --> 00:08:02.654 What about just training from another human, even if it is on zoom, right? 00:08:02.654 --> 00:08:04.864 Do you think that there's opportunity there? 00:08:04.874 --> 00:08:08.844 Or is it all given up to a I and YouTube these days? 00:08:10.209 --> 00:08:13.999 Steve: We did try and do the zoom training, but I think people's 00:08:13.999 --> 00:08:15.529 attention span is just much shorter. 00:08:16.484 --> 00:08:16.834 Matt: Mm. 00:08:17.029 --> 00:08:21.349 Steve: used to get people, I mean this was really pre phone addiction 00:08:21.359 --> 00:08:25.549 days as well, but we used to get people in a room for eight or nine 00:08:25.549 --> 00:08:29.049 hours, and they could sit down and focus on us teaching them something. 00:08:30.129 --> 00:08:32.149 And now you move to zoom. 00:08:32.579 --> 00:08:35.099 I don't know if it's something about the quality of the interaction, 00:08:35.749 --> 00:08:38.949 but people's attention really starts to fade after an hour or so. 00:08:39.924 --> 00:08:40.234 Matt: Yeah. 00:08:40.874 --> 00:08:41.154 Yeah. 00:08:42.204 --> 00:08:44.294 So you end up selling OS training. 00:08:44.294 --> 00:08:46.194 The government shutdown happens. 00:08:46.204 --> 00:08:49.994 I think I actually do recall that for those those three weeks. 00:08:50.384 --> 00:08:53.694 And then you say, okay, I need, I need to get something off the 00:08:53.694 --> 00:08:55.854 ground, literally to survive. 00:08:56.214 --> 00:08:58.414 Had you already started to build the plugins? 00:08:58.444 --> 00:09:01.084 What was the first plugin and what was that experience like? 00:09:01.644 --> 00:09:04.344 Steve: yeah, we had, we'd started to make the move. 00:09:04.344 --> 00:09:07.184 We'd, we sold OS training when it was still going well. 00:09:07.804 --> 00:09:11.854 OS training was the name of the business, the training business that we had and 00:09:12.374 --> 00:09:18.554 a lot of what we try to do in WordPress even now comes from a lot of those 00:09:18.594 --> 00:09:22.444 big clients, like, Like some of those government contractors we'll be dealing 00:09:22.444 --> 00:09:25.734 with I've got a clear memory of sitting down with someone in one of those big 00:09:25.734 --> 00:09:32.654 departments and They just decided to go with Drupal instead of WordPress And the 00:09:32.654 --> 00:09:40.499 reason was that Drupal offered really fine grained access control Over what 00:09:40.499 --> 00:09:45.709 people in the government department could do and also some way to progress content 00:09:46.119 --> 00:09:48.159 through stages before it was published. 00:09:48.909 --> 00:09:50.239 And that kind of stuck with me. 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:54.669 There's got to be a demand for this in WordPress as well. 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:57.589 For people that really care about their content. 00:09:57.689 --> 00:10:01.199 Either because they actually care about it or because some legal department 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:02.359 is making them care about it. 00:10:03.599 --> 00:10:07.769 so we went, we did training for a lot of universities and a 00:10:07.769 --> 00:10:09.379 lot of, government departments. 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:13.319 And so we kind of took those learnings and tried to apply 00:10:13.319 --> 00:10:14.259 them to WordPress, you know. 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:20.209 What would happen if you have to be really careful about your 00:10:20.219 --> 00:10:22.299 content before you publish it? 00:10:22.629 --> 00:10:26.259 You probably need something more than just pending review and 00:10:26.259 --> 00:10:28.059 draft to get something ready. 00:10:29.329 --> 00:10:34.239 some of the, one of the funniest customers I remember was a, A medical company, 00:10:35.099 --> 00:10:41.179 one of the household name pharmaceutical companies and they were selling some, 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:45.809 some, some interesting products and they needed to make sure all the content was 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:48.759 exactly accurate before it goes online. 00:10:49.229 --> 00:10:51.969 You know, they can't make any medical claims about something. 00:10:51.999 --> 00:10:56.329 Everything needs to be exactly proofread down to the letter. 00:10:56.329 --> 00:11:00.229 All of the, all of the disclaimers they have on those TV commercials at the end. 00:11:01.144 --> 00:11:01.574 Matt: Yes. 00:11:01.574 --> 00:11:07.154 Steve: And they had like 16 or 18 of these stages that the content 00:11:07.184 --> 00:11:08.834 needed to go through for approval. 00:11:08.834 --> 00:11:13.874 And so most of those people I think now are on WordPress. 00:11:13.874 --> 00:11:16.364 WordPress has kind of taken over that power of publishing. 00:11:16.374 --> 00:11:18.184 Drupal is still around, still doing well. 00:11:18.764 --> 00:11:23.854 But I guarantee if I knocked on the door of all those people we worked with in 00:11:23.854 --> 00:11:25.814 the past, that they're on WordPress now. 00:11:26.964 --> 00:11:27.284 Matt: Yeah. 00:11:27.844 --> 00:11:28.104 Yeah. 00:11:28.104 --> 00:11:31.434 I want to talk, obviously we'll talk more about the, the importance of WordPress 00:11:31.474 --> 00:11:36.734 in the publishing space, but, back to your entrepreneurial journey was, 00:11:36.984 --> 00:11:41.484 which came first, give us the timeline, publish press, meta slider all at once. 00:11:41.494 --> 00:11:44.044 What were the first few products that you started to launch? 00:11:44.324 --> 00:11:46.214 Steve: The first one we launched was Drupal. 00:11:47.074 --> 00:11:52.484 There was a old plug in called EditFlow that, yeah, that 00:11:53.044 --> 00:11:55.084 was taken over by Automattic. 00:11:55.984 --> 00:11:56.304 Matt: Yep. 00:11:56.534 --> 00:12:02.404 Steve: And, Automattic does lots of wonderful, has lots of wonderful 00:12:02.414 --> 00:12:07.294 products, but quite often I think if someone gets hired by Automattic, 00:12:07.954 --> 00:12:10.754 they have to bring their plug in with them, and maybe it doesn't fit 00:12:10.754 --> 00:12:13.054 in with the priorities of the time. 00:12:13.344 --> 00:12:15.034 And EditFlow didn't. 00:12:15.394 --> 00:12:16.754 And we were using it. 00:12:17.374 --> 00:12:20.844 So we decided to fork it and make it our first test plugin. 00:12:21.364 --> 00:12:25.544 And if you haven't used EditFlow, basically it's like a big editorial 00:12:25.544 --> 00:12:30.354 calendar that you can look at all your content that's coming up and you can 00:12:30.354 --> 00:12:32.004 drag and drop it to a new location. 00:12:32.374 --> 00:12:35.744 Say, hey, we have a post that's scheduled for Thursday. 00:12:36.104 --> 00:12:39.334 Hmm, let me drag it to next Monday instead. 00:12:41.444 --> 00:12:41.654 Matt: Yeah. 00:12:41.654 --> 00:12:43.064 I remember, I remember edit flow. 00:12:43.649 --> 00:12:47.659 really well, in fact, now, I mean, I haven't thought about it since, since I 00:12:47.669 --> 00:12:49.449 had used it, you know, many years ago. 00:12:50.029 --> 00:12:54.749 so you fork it, and that's the first iteration of what is now, let me just 00:12:54.749 --> 00:13:01.609 look at this, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, you call them, I call them, 00:13:01.619 --> 00:13:02.939 I would call them add ons or plug ins. 00:13:03.119 --> 00:13:05.539 How do you refer to them under the umbrella of published press? 00:13:06.324 --> 00:13:10.834 Steve: Yeah, we've slowly grown and we may be adding, maybe adding more. 00:13:10.934 --> 00:13:16.404 for example, one of the guys who was Involved with edit flow also had a 00:13:16.404 --> 00:13:23.764 plugin called co authors plus that again for a fairly, a fairly simple 00:13:23.914 --> 00:13:28.304 technical problem, like WordPress only allows you one user for each post. 00:13:29.174 --> 00:13:33.044 And he had a, a solution that would allow you to add two 00:13:33.044 --> 00:13:35.224 or three authors to one post. 00:13:35.824 --> 00:13:37.984 And he'd just been hired by automatic. 00:13:38.404 --> 00:13:40.034 I sat down with him at a conference. 00:13:40.184 --> 00:13:41.124 it was the. 00:13:42.019 --> 00:13:43.229 The loop conf. 00:13:44.169 --> 00:13:46.639 If you remember it, I think it might be coming back this year in fact. 00:13:46.764 --> 00:13:47.334 Matt: It is, yeah. 00:13:47.439 --> 00:13:49.889 Steve: loop conf in Salt Lake City. 00:13:50.779 --> 00:13:54.959 And he looked at me and said Steve, I'm going to join automatic. 00:13:55.779 --> 00:13:57.569 I don't think I'm going to have much time to work on it. 00:13:58.319 --> 00:13:59.289 You should fork the plugin. 00:14:01.079 --> 00:14:01.979 there's plugin number two. 00:14:02.239 --> 00:14:03.749 and it 00:14:04.344 --> 00:14:06.564 Matt: They should make like a wordpress movie about you where 00:14:06.564 --> 00:14:10.524 you're just like walking along and all of a sudden like, Plugins land 00:14:10.524 --> 00:14:11.704 on your lap and they go, here you go! 00:14:13.454 --> 00:14:15.474 Steve: That's really been the way it's, the way it's gone. 00:14:15.584 --> 00:14:15.844 Matt: Yeah. 00:14:16.474 --> 00:14:20.524 Steve: we got talking to a guy in Michigan who needed some 00:14:20.524 --> 00:14:22.204 help with our first plugin. 00:14:23.114 --> 00:14:27.454 It turns out he's got like three extra plugins with about 200, 000 users. 00:14:28.044 --> 00:14:29.844 It's like, Oh, you seem to know what you're doing. 00:14:30.384 --> 00:14:32.944 we ended up hiring him and he's still with us. 00:14:33.134 --> 00:14:36.354 I think he, just had, it's like a seventh anniversary with us. 00:14:36.444 --> 00:14:41.674 A couple of weeks ago and yeah, just like, almost like carrying a magnet around. 00:14:42.234 --> 00:14:48.004 You suddenly, all these, all these plugins start popping up until you 00:14:48.004 --> 00:14:49.394 end up with a collection of them. 00:14:50.134 --> 00:14:50.494 Matt: Yeah. 00:14:50.964 --> 00:14:52.684 I can totally understand. 00:14:52.764 --> 00:14:54.954 you know, one of the great things about WordPress. 00:14:55.014 --> 00:14:57.794 I mean, obviously it solves so many different needs from like the 00:14:57.794 --> 00:15:03.524 mom and pop shop to the individual blogger to, higher ed and enterprise 00:15:03.524 --> 00:15:05.054 and publishers and all this stuff. 00:15:05.994 --> 00:15:09.734 I mean, many of them can all be interconnected with just a blog, right? 00:15:09.744 --> 00:15:14.374 Like maybe all of these avatars have a blog and that's kind of where that 00:15:14.374 --> 00:15:16.554 experience meets in the middle, though. 00:15:16.554 --> 00:15:16.994 I might yeah. 00:15:17.009 --> 00:15:20.829 I guess it might be challenging for you from like a marketing 00:15:21.239 --> 00:15:22.779 and product positioning thing. 00:15:22.929 --> 00:15:27.759 Like are we like just for publishers, like Publishers capital P? 00:15:28.019 --> 00:15:33.259 Are we for enterprise and higher ed that need more like access control? 00:15:33.489 --> 00:15:34.509 Is it all of it? 00:15:34.959 --> 00:15:39.629 As you've matured the business of PublishPress, how have you dialed 00:15:39.629 --> 00:15:41.819 in the right customer for you? 00:15:42.114 --> 00:15:43.134 Steve: Oh, good question. 00:15:43.134 --> 00:15:44.854 I've thought about that a ton over the years. 00:15:45.394 --> 00:15:53.604 we, we originally said publishers and now we've slightly elongated it to say 00:15:53.604 --> 00:15:54.714 people who care about their publishing. 00:15:55.140 --> 00:16:00.860 because we do have a lot of publishers, a lot of small newspapers, magazines, 00:16:01.710 --> 00:16:07.200 but also we have the, the government, the universities, the pharmaceutical 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.250 companies, anyone that really cares about their publishing and doesn't 00:16:11.250 --> 00:16:16.600 want to just do a quick AI draft and hit publish, anyone that really 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:20.170 needs to check and double check their content before it goes live. 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:21.660 Matt: Yeah. 00:16:21.970 --> 00:16:27.970 From, from a, you know, another popular thing that I see, with, you know, I 00:16:27.970 --> 00:16:32.350 would say friends and colleagues of ours that, have other plugins, you know, I'm 00:16:32.390 --> 00:16:37.500 thinking maybe like Syed and, you know, Awesome Motive and, and other, folks 00:16:37.530 --> 00:16:43.140 who distribute to or through hosting companies, I'd imagine this kind of 00:16:43.140 --> 00:16:46.320 thing is, Well, you explain it to me. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:47.340 I'll pose the question. 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.200 How is it to get distribution through web hosts? 00:16:50.270 --> 00:16:52.230 I know, like, Automatic has Newspack. 00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:54.880 is that a thing they connect with you? 00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:56.520 And you say, hey, look, you've got Newspack. 00:16:56.660 --> 00:16:59.990 I've got a bunch of plugins that work really well for your type of customer. 00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:01.750 Let's collaborate. 00:17:01.830 --> 00:17:04.700 What's distribution like for you through web hosts? 00:17:04.970 --> 00:17:06.920 Steve: We're not really one of those plugins that has 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:08.300 that option, unfortunately. 00:17:08.670 --> 00:17:11.350 Newspack is small but mighty. 00:17:11.730 --> 00:17:13.920 I, I really admire the work they've been doing. 00:17:14.820 --> 00:17:21.810 They've been, They've been like a fairly small, division inside automatic, but 00:17:21.810 --> 00:17:23.300 really been making some good progress. 00:17:23.300 --> 00:17:26.760 They have, I think, getting up to several thousand websites on their 00:17:26.760 --> 00:17:30.010 platform now and they're starting to add some bigger publishers. 00:17:30.560 --> 00:17:35.670 they, I don't think they're really quite big enough to be, to have 00:17:35.670 --> 00:17:36.880 much in the way of partnerships. 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:42.630 And I know they have like a big license with us and they put published press 00:17:42.630 --> 00:17:47.790 on a lot of their, A lot of their news sites, but they're not quite 00:17:47.810 --> 00:17:52.870 there in terms of being a, know, like hosting companies have, VIP partners 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:54.830 and proper partnership programs. 00:17:55.090 --> 00:18:00.075 They're certainly a little more informal, but they're probably if people ask 00:18:00.075 --> 00:18:03.575 me about the success of WordPress in the publishing space, Newspack 00:18:03.585 --> 00:18:07.665 is probably one of the first three organizations I point to and say, Hey, 00:18:08.375 --> 00:18:09.575 these guys are doing awesome work. 00:18:10.790 --> 00:18:12.710 Matt: Are there other, who are the others, that you could share? 00:18:13.035 --> 00:18:14.635 Steve: Oh, well, there's, there's Newspack. 00:18:14.735 --> 00:18:20.005 There is, a small, a fairly small, almost like one man 00:18:20.005 --> 00:18:21.625 company called Paywall Project. 00:18:22.385 --> 00:18:30.585 He's connected to LeakyPaywall, a plugin that does paywalls for, for 00:18:30.595 --> 00:18:33.785 magazines and just very quietly, 00:18:36.065 --> 00:18:39.735 just on his own almost, he's managed to get several hundred small newspapers 00:18:41.485 --> 00:18:49.110 onto his platform and there's a, another platform called LEED, L E D E, that 00:18:49.110 --> 00:18:51.710 spun out of a big agency called Allie. 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:57.330 And they've done really some interesting work with some new publishers. 00:18:57.740 --> 00:19:02.830 There's one called, Defector, which is a big sports publisher spun out 00:19:02.830 --> 00:19:05.110 of, it was called Deadspin originally. 00:19:06.340 --> 00:19:08.850 kind of, yeah, related to the Gawker. 00:19:09.795 --> 00:19:09.935 The 00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:10.310 Matt: Yep. 00:19:11.805 --> 00:19:13.674 Steve: space. 00:19:13.725 --> 00:19:17.525 so Lead is a kind of spin off of Ali, and they're working 00:19:17.525 --> 00:19:21.545 on some fascinating publishing projects, all based on WordPress. 00:19:22.045 --> 00:19:26.565 A lot of them happen to be owned by the journalists, which is a really nice spin. 00:19:27.015 --> 00:19:27.345 Matt: Yeah. 00:19:28.030 --> 00:19:31.890 Based on what you've seen in, the bigger publishing space or even the 00:19:31.890 --> 00:19:36.720 enterprise space, what's your experience with customers saying no to WordPress? 00:19:37.080 --> 00:19:40.500 We don't want WordPress because what is their reasoning? 00:19:41.595 --> 00:19:42.335 Steve: They need simpler. 00:19:42.675 --> 00:19:42.955 Matt: Hmm. 00:19:43.290 --> 00:19:48.115 Steve: things The people that go away from WordPress tend to be more like 00:19:48.115 --> 00:19:52.255 the small one person sites that would prefer to go maybe substack or ghost 00:19:53.235 --> 00:19:53.605 Matt: Yeah. 00:19:54.225 --> 00:19:58.415 Steve: I I don't hear too much of the cannibalization of the at the top end 00:19:58.965 --> 00:20:05.175 you've got organizations like WordPress VIP around who They're more than capable 00:20:05.255 --> 00:20:10.885 of Taking care of the high end kinds If there is people eating WordPress is lunch. 00:20:11.125 --> 00:20:15.565 It's definitely at the, at the lower end, someone that wants to send out 00:20:15.565 --> 00:20:17.275 a newsletter blast once a once a week 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:18.630 Matt: Right. 00:20:18.890 --> 00:20:22.670 Beehive, substack, you know, that kind of thing. 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:25.280 probably kit, MailChimp, like, you know, people who are just like, Eh, 00:20:25.280 --> 00:20:27.250 I just need this kind of solution. 00:20:27.250 --> 00:20:31.049 Yeah. 00:20:31.925 --> 00:20:34.205 Steve: the recommendation features built in as well. 00:20:34.255 --> 00:20:37.390 if you're on a WordPress site by yourself, you're not gonna benefit 00:20:37.390 --> 00:20:41.250 from all those substack recommendations that, that nudge other people 00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:42.210 to sign up for your newsletter. 00:20:43.015 --> 00:20:43.385 Matt: Sure. 00:20:44.665 --> 00:20:50.445 I usually have at least one, what I call, Strap on your seatbelt roller 00:20:50.445 --> 00:20:54.895 coaster ride questions, and I'm going to give you one right now, and 00:20:54.895 --> 00:20:56.735 I it's not even a direct question. 00:20:56.735 --> 00:20:59.595 I'm gonna throw a bunch of stuff at you and then look for your feedback. 00:21:00.055 --> 00:21:02.235 So, and there's many threads of thought here. 00:21:02.235 --> 00:21:06.515 Let's I'm going to try to wrangle myself in on this one, too, but we're living 00:21:06.515 --> 00:21:08.245 in a world, yeah, you might need to. 00:21:08.635 --> 00:21:12.245 So we're living in a world where, I mean, WordPress is being challenged, right? 00:21:12.245 --> 00:21:13.755 The community is being challenged. 00:21:14.025 --> 00:21:17.395 you know, with everything happening with WP Engine and Automatic and Mullenweg. 00:21:17.705 --> 00:21:22.015 WordPress is being challenged with, is this the best tool anymore? 00:21:22.015 --> 00:21:24.075 It's, you know, air quotes, monolithic. 00:21:24.075 --> 00:21:25.525 It's 20 plus years old. 00:21:25.775 --> 00:21:28.855 there's all this new fangled AI stuff. 00:21:29.155 --> 00:21:34.395 there's lots of people who question like, is open source even a viable thing? 00:21:34.715 --> 00:21:35.095 Right? 00:21:35.095 --> 00:21:38.155 Like I thought we had say in making this software. 00:21:38.165 --> 00:21:42.815 Turns out we don't, fully, should we even be supporting this anymore? 00:21:43.025 --> 00:21:44.855 There's all these things happening. 00:21:44.855 --> 00:21:49.765 There's a very chaotic, catastrophic sphere happening right now, 00:21:49.985 --> 00:21:52.265 in the world of WordPress and. 00:21:53.290 --> 00:21:59.130 I'm looking for ways to, I guess, without picking sides, if that 00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:03.620 can even be possible anymore, like how do you continue, how do we 00:22:03.620 --> 00:22:09.880 continue to keep WordPress, going, how do we keep the platform going 00:22:10.260 --> 00:22:13.740 and, and propping up open source? 00:22:14.010 --> 00:22:17.060 And I was listening to another podcast, which is not even 00:22:17.060 --> 00:22:18.660 in the WordPress space as AI. 00:22:19.695 --> 00:22:21.465 It's a bit hypey, right? 00:22:21.465 --> 00:22:22.945 He does some pretty clickbait. 00:22:23.245 --> 00:22:25.325 I'm actually forgetting the name of the channel right now, but he's got 00:22:25.325 --> 00:22:26.445 a few hundred thousand subscribers. 00:22:26.445 --> 00:22:29.415 It's kind of hype clickbaity, but it's, it's good content. 00:22:29.845 --> 00:22:35.435 And he had this really young kid on, I don't know, low twenties, 21, 22. 00:22:35.435 --> 00:22:36.365 I don't know how old he was. 00:22:36.825 --> 00:22:38.815 And he's talking about like building directories and how he 00:22:38.815 --> 00:22:41.465 can make all this money, making, building these directory sites. 00:22:42.435 --> 00:22:45.195 And he says, he's explaining how he does it, does all this 00:22:45.195 --> 00:22:46.185 research, does all this thing. 00:22:46.505 --> 00:22:49.905 And then he goes, I built this directory, the example directory that 00:22:49.905 --> 00:22:51.455 he was talking about in WordPress. 00:22:51.685 --> 00:22:54.635 And he goes, I know, it's a stupid decision to use WordPress, right? 00:22:54.695 --> 00:22:57.355 And I'm listening to this, and I was just like, why? 00:22:57.355 --> 00:23:01.435 So he's like, I'd rather be using like Framer or I could build this in Bolt. 00:23:01.435 --> 00:23:03.905 And then the host is like, yeah, I can't believe you picked WordPress. 00:23:03.915 --> 00:23:05.175 Like, why would you pick WordPress? 00:23:05.875 --> 00:23:07.395 And I'm listening to it going. 00:23:07.925 --> 00:23:14.475 No, it's actually the best platform to pick because what you all don't realize 00:23:14.505 --> 00:23:20.365 is whenever you vote for your little AI project or your little side hustle 00:23:20.365 --> 00:23:25.435 project, whenever you vote for something that's closed sourced or, you know, this 00:23:26.410 --> 00:23:31.920 Integrated AI platform thing When your business that you're making money with 00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:35.340 eventually actually costs you something and you're done with like the hype 00:23:35.380 --> 00:23:38.630 moment of oh This thing's making me so much money because you haven't really 00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:43.905 scaled it yet WordPress actually is the best choice because Things are detached. 00:23:44.035 --> 00:23:45.425 It's an open source database. 00:23:45.485 --> 00:23:47.585 It's an air quotes, open source front end. 00:23:47.745 --> 00:23:50.165 You can move it to a different web hosting provider. 00:23:50.395 --> 00:23:53.355 You can analyze your database and optimize it. 00:23:53.565 --> 00:23:55.335 You have a user login system. 00:23:55.525 --> 00:24:00.085 You can have theming and I know it's not beautiful and I know there's 00:24:00.135 --> 00:24:05.665 a learning curve, but in fact, you can pick it apart, move things 00:24:05.665 --> 00:24:07.585 around and it is a great solution. 00:24:07.585 --> 00:24:09.375 It's just not sexy. 00:24:10.025 --> 00:24:11.645 And that's the world we're living in. 00:24:12.215 --> 00:24:13.775 I think, with WordPress. 00:24:14.125 --> 00:24:15.655 Should we be doing this thing? 00:24:15.785 --> 00:24:17.515 There's chaos in the community. 00:24:17.955 --> 00:24:21.355 Oh god, AI looks so alluring compared to WordPress. 00:24:22.385 --> 00:24:23.215 What's your thoughts? 00:24:24.075 --> 00:24:27.535 On that, on that grenade of thoughts I threw at 00:24:27.635 --> 00:24:31.555 Steve: That sounds more like a justified rant than a question. 00:24:32.355 --> 00:24:32.605 Matt: Yeah. 00:24:32.605 --> 00:24:40.530 Bourbon. 00:24:41.049 --> 00:24:42.210 Steve: two? 00:24:42.210 --> 00:24:44.533 Lunch time. 00:24:44.533 --> 00:24:47.545 Um, deep seek. 00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:57.630 Like, we just had the, one of the best selling pitches for open source that we've 00:24:57.630 --> 00:25:04.260 had in years just dropped on our laps that with the power of open source, thanks to 00:25:04.260 --> 00:25:09.140 Facebook's decision for whatever ulterior motives they had behind it to open source 00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:16.530 all their research through Lama, we have a product That is capable of competing with 00:25:16.540 --> 00:25:19.190 far, far, far more expensive alternatives. 00:25:19.610 --> 00:25:23.720 I mean, that's kind of what WordPress is empowering still, that, the 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:28.540 technology itself may be a little old, but the, the principles that 00:25:28.540 --> 00:25:31.580 it stands for, are going to be valuable for many, many years to come. 00:25:32.050 --> 00:25:38.670 I, I started my journey here in just pure PHP, then some Joomla, then some Drupal. 00:25:39.370 --> 00:25:43.660 Then some WordPress and the throughput for all of those has been the value of 00:25:44.180 --> 00:25:45.730 doing things in the open source way. 00:25:45.730 --> 00:25:52.510 I, I, I've still got a, a little bit of a Joomla business that's still going. 00:25:52.690 --> 00:25:55.320 a little bit of Drupal business that's still going. 00:25:55.760 --> 00:26:00.260 WordPress, even if it was to take a precipitous decline tomorrow, 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:02.240 it would still be employing. 00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:05.070 many thousands of people for years to come. 00:26:06.120 --> 00:26:06.410 Matt: Yeah. 00:26:06.750 --> 00:26:09.690 Steve: But perhaps the important thing is what you were saying in your 00:26:09.690 --> 00:26:16.470 justified rant that these kids moving to to Webflow, moving to closed source 00:26:16.470 --> 00:26:19.920 platforms, are losing something of value. 00:26:20.840 --> 00:26:21.200 Matt: Yeah. 00:26:21.560 --> 00:26:25.740 Steve: If they're building with JavaScript, for example, Great. 00:26:25.930 --> 00:26:26.380 Go for it. 00:26:27.040 --> 00:26:30.670 building with, if they're building with open source tools, I think 00:26:30.670 --> 00:26:34.820 they'll find themselves with a better career, a better future, for themselves 00:26:34.820 --> 00:26:38.580 and for their platforms, if, if they stick to the open source way. 00:26:39.530 --> 00:26:39.860 Matt: Yeah. 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:45.620 Another debate that I have, With some folks, particularly Kevin, Kevin Geary, 00:26:46.030 --> 00:26:52.500 is like the core, use case for, for WordPress, and I don't have an answer, 00:26:52.850 --> 00:26:56.090 but I think, as you know, and as a lot of us who have been in the space 00:26:56.090 --> 00:27:00.795 for so long, I mean, it started as a blogging tool And then, you know, Matt 00:27:00.795 --> 00:27:04.975 and Automatic sort of picked up this torch of, democratizing publishing. 00:27:04.975 --> 00:27:09.805 And I think that was the thing, the North Star, when, when 00:27:09.835 --> 00:27:11.885 WordPress and blogs were cool. 00:27:11.925 --> 00:27:13.655 Again, a lot of air quotes in this episode. 00:27:13.665 --> 00:27:16.575 I'm throwing air quotes when blogs and WordPress were cool. 00:27:16.985 --> 00:27:22.485 but I think it is oh, so important as a, as a, as an open source 00:27:22.485 --> 00:27:25.175 tool to have an open source publishing tool like WordPress. 00:27:25.620 --> 00:27:29.320 But I think we're also getting tugged in another direction where it's 00:27:29.320 --> 00:27:33.660 like, Oh, but we want this great website builder tool too, right? 00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:37.910 And I don't see those as equal, I don't see that as the same path, right? 00:27:37.910 --> 00:27:43.470 I, I don't know how WordPress can be the best publishing tool, bloggers. 00:27:43.485 --> 00:27:48.728 Editors, collaborators, but also the best website building tool. 00:27:48.758 --> 00:27:50.058 I mean, I get it. 00:27:50.268 --> 00:27:51.118 I get why. 00:27:51.168 --> 00:27:53.838 I just don't know from like a product person perspective 00:27:53.838 --> 00:27:57.068 like how both of those meet. 00:27:57.438 --> 00:28:01.958 your thoughts on WordPress as like pure publishing tool, 00:28:02.488 --> 00:28:04.428 pure website building tool. 00:28:04.518 --> 00:28:08.208 How do these two merge or is it not as complicated as I'm thinking it to be? 00:28:08.668 --> 00:28:09.368 Steve: Hmm. 00:28:09.368 --> 00:28:15.898 I, I wonder if you take a step back seven years. 00:28:15.938 --> 00:28:17.398 I mean, how old is Gutenberg now? 00:28:17.908 --> 00:28:18.478 Gutenberg 00:28:18.608 --> 00:28:19.118 Matt: think it's eight. 00:28:19.188 --> 00:28:19.838 I think it's eight. 00:28:20.218 --> 00:28:20.588 Steve: Okay. 00:28:21.528 --> 00:28:26.858 I seem to remember at that time, the original, the time the, the project 00:28:26.858 --> 00:28:31.568 was launched, we were looking at Weebly and Wix and Squarespace and all 00:28:31.568 --> 00:28:34.798 their, their cool drag and drop tools. 00:28:35.828 --> 00:28:40.418 I mean, It is useful for, for WordPress to have those in the core. 00:28:40.418 --> 00:28:43.208 I, the, the, what's the word? 00:28:43.298 --> 00:28:44.168 steel man. 00:28:44.188 --> 00:28:45.018 I think the, 00:28:45.418 --> 00:28:45.908 Matt: Mm. 00:28:46.043 --> 00:28:52.528 Steve: the, like taking the opposite side seriously is that, the downside 00:28:52.538 --> 00:28:54.178 to taking the Gutenberg approaches. 00:28:54.908 --> 00:28:59.868 There's only so many volunteer hours, so many, contributor hours in the 00:28:59.868 --> 00:29:05.348 day that you can't do everything in the core with a team of volunteers 00:29:05.378 --> 00:29:08.048 plus a few paid helpers as well. 00:29:08.568 --> 00:29:13.908 So perhaps this was too much of a big project to take on to, to try 00:29:13.928 --> 00:29:18.698 and also, to try and compete with Weebly's and the Squarespace's of 00:29:18.698 --> 00:29:20.928 the world with a volunteer team. 00:29:21.468 --> 00:29:26.218 it Part of being an open source probably is realizing you have some limitations. 00:29:26.218 --> 00:29:26.608 You're not, 00:29:27.108 --> 00:29:27.448 Matt: Yeah. 00:29:27.868 --> 00:29:31.608 Steve: like, how many billions of dollars are companies like Meta 00:29:31.638 --> 00:29:33.988 throwing at the problem of AI? 00:29:34.628 --> 00:29:38.958 whole rooms full of people making half a million or a million dollars a year. 00:29:39.788 --> 00:29:43.108 so yeah, maybe the Steelman, way. 00:29:43.278 --> 00:29:47.618 To, to think about the people that don't like Gutenberg or think it 00:29:47.618 --> 00:29:52.078 was the wrong choice is should we be trying to make the best publishing tool 00:29:52.248 --> 00:29:53.868 and the best website building tool? 00:29:54.448 --> 00:29:58.888 Some of that should probably be left to third parties to, to the Elementors 00:29:58.888 --> 00:30:00.198 and the Beaver Builders of the world. 00:30:00.198 --> 00:30:00.943 Yes, 00:30:00.958 --> 00:30:01.508 Matt: Yeah. 00:30:01.828 --> 00:30:03.328 Yeah, I, I, I tend to agree. 00:30:03.328 --> 00:30:04.808 It's one of the great things about open source. 00:30:04.808 --> 00:30:05.688 That's why I don't want to see it. 00:30:05.838 --> 00:30:09.028 You know, that's why it's, again, this is a challenging time. 00:30:09.118 --> 00:30:11.648 you know, I feel like everything. 00:30:12.048 --> 00:30:19.508 I'm normally half glass full kind of guy with tech most of the time, but I feel 00:30:19.508 --> 00:30:22.728 like everything hangs in the balance quite literally with WordPress, like as 00:30:22.728 --> 00:30:28.908 we wait for this, you know, lawsuit suits to happen with WP Engine and automatic 00:30:28.938 --> 00:30:33.388 and, what does that spell like, you know, we were really exposed to, at 00:30:33.388 --> 00:30:35.598 least I was, I don't know about everybody else in the room, but I was really 00:30:35.598 --> 00:30:37.258 exposed to the truth behind wordpress. 00:30:37.258 --> 00:30:37.508 org. 00:30:37.508 --> 00:30:38.458 And that makes me, yeah. 00:30:38.553 --> 00:30:42.063 Like pause for a moment as like one of the biggest distribution 00:30:42.063 --> 00:30:43.153 point for free plugins. 00:30:43.633 --> 00:30:45.473 what happens to that after this? 00:30:45.493 --> 00:30:51.403 And, you know, it's, it's really hard, for me to, you know, just. 00:30:53.218 --> 00:30:55.128 I can understand everyone's frustrations. 00:30:55.218 --> 00:30:58.788 I'm frustrated, but also at the same time, it's like, man, look what 00:30:58.828 --> 00:31:03.358 we've done in 20 years, even though if we weren't fully privy to all the 00:31:03.358 --> 00:31:07.888 details, it's like, how do you, how do we positively keep this again? 00:31:07.888 --> 00:31:09.518 I go back to like, I can't choose. 00:31:09.538 --> 00:31:10.578 I don't know how to choose sides. 00:31:10.588 --> 00:31:11.488 Don't want to choose sides. 00:31:11.508 --> 00:31:14.178 I just want to positively move WordPress forward. 00:31:14.878 --> 00:31:18.558 but you know, we're just in this moment where I don't know how that's technically 00:31:18.558 --> 00:31:20.678 possible now that we've kind of learned. 00:31:21.253 --> 00:31:24.303 org, structure, I guess, for lack of a better phrase. 00:31:24.753 --> 00:31:26.333 it's a bit challenging, in my opinion. 00:31:29.483 --> 00:31:29.773 Yeah. 00:31:30.128 --> 00:31:31.788 Steve: it's a big moment for WordPress. 00:31:31.908 --> 00:31:33.588 I'm old enough to have lived through. 00:31:34.398 --> 00:31:36.278 A few of these for different projects. 00:31:36.278 --> 00:31:44.388 I think maybe, not an exact, comparison, but we were very heavily involved 00:31:44.388 --> 00:31:51.508 in Drupal when it went from, Drupal 7 to Drupal 8 and they basically 00:31:51.948 --> 00:31:54.068 rewrote the thing top to bottom. 00:31:54.658 --> 00:31:56.728 And it really. 00:31:58.698 --> 00:32:01.158 Really, really blew up in a big way for the community. 00:32:01.198 --> 00:32:02.388 That was the point where we left. 00:32:02.938 --> 00:32:08.498 and I saw some research the other day that when it came to sites on 00:32:08.498 --> 00:32:12.998 Drupal seven, more of them ended up on WordPress than ended up on Drupal eight. 00:32:13.893 --> 00:32:14.203 Matt: Yeah. 00:32:14.328 --> 00:32:17.898 Steve: Like literally an enormous chunk of the user base left 00:32:18.318 --> 00:32:20.718 and went, like a real kind of. 00:32:22.178 --> 00:32:26.898 Stop dead, think hard about things like this is breaking the community 00:32:26.898 --> 00:32:32.378 almost to a point where things are not going to be the same afterwards. 00:32:33.818 --> 00:32:37.298 And you look back now and Drupal's doing okay. 00:32:37.378 --> 00:32:40.038 They, they weren't quite the same afterwards. 00:32:40.038 --> 00:32:46.238 There was a shift and, I think a few months after, I'm trying to think 00:32:46.238 --> 00:32:53.153 of the timeline, but Acquia ended up selling to private equity for a 00:32:53.153 --> 00:32:58.153 billion dollars, you know, like huge money entered the ecosystem as well. 00:32:58.153 --> 00:33:01.383 And things were different for sure. 00:33:01.403 --> 00:33:05.333 There was a kind of a hard nosed realism, like we're doing this under 00:33:05.333 --> 00:33:07.023 the eye of a private equity company. 00:33:07.853 --> 00:33:09.653 but They've kept going. 00:33:09.653 --> 00:33:13.343 A lot of the original people that believed heavily in open source are still there 00:33:13.343 --> 00:33:14.763 in the Drupal community, still going. 00:33:15.473 --> 00:33:18.983 there's still a, a community spirit. 00:33:18.993 --> 00:33:21.563 There's still a lot of open source software being made. 00:33:22.223 --> 00:33:24.873 the, the people that went through it and ended up a little. 00:33:25.283 --> 00:33:28.953 A little greyer, maybe not quite as idealistic. 00:33:29.143 --> 00:33:34.213 and so word, probably the question then is where is WordPress going 00:33:34.213 --> 00:33:37.463 to be in three, four years? 00:33:37.913 --> 00:33:41.583 Are we all going to be perhaps still here, but a little more cynical? 00:33:42.753 --> 00:33:46.543 Matt: Yeah, I, I, I, probably, probably. 00:33:46.813 --> 00:33:49.933 Yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know, we just want to, you know, and I, 00:33:49.963 --> 00:33:52.943 I think now as the dust settles, it's like, just tell us the rules. 00:33:53.753 --> 00:33:58.043 In fact, never had problems with, with the rules before, even though 00:33:58.043 --> 00:33:59.623 they were very kind of loose. 00:33:59.903 --> 00:34:04.093 and I had even, you know, vocally said over the years like, Hey, turn WordPress. 00:34:04.093 --> 00:34:05.993 org into a traditional marketplace. 00:34:05.993 --> 00:34:09.493 I mean, I think now we know why he couldn't, you know, but, You know, 00:34:09.513 --> 00:34:12.773 put it, traditional marketplace, tax us, like, just give us the 00:34:12.773 --> 00:34:14.123 lane we need to operate in. 00:34:14.123 --> 00:34:17.273 There's nothing wrong with Automatic and Matt profiting, 00:34:17.463 --> 00:34:18.973 profiting off of this stuff. 00:34:19.293 --> 00:34:23.083 it's just, you know, it's just very unclear and you, this is like, year 00:34:23.083 --> 00:34:26.243 after year, you just don't know where, where you lie on this stuff. 00:34:26.263 --> 00:34:29.273 But, anyway, I don't want to end it on a negative note, 00:34:29.303 --> 00:34:30.133 Steve: Glass half full. 00:34:33.233 --> 00:34:36.063 It could, I mean, you think, you're saying, you're thinking it could be 00:34:36.063 --> 00:34:40.483 more like, Shopify, like an open source version of Shopify, like, hey, this is 00:34:40.503 --> 00:34:42.183 owned by a commercial company at the top. 00:34:42.998 --> 00:34:43.308 Matt: yeah, 00:34:43.333 --> 00:34:46.663 Steve: Shopify, this is our brand, we own the brand, no one, 00:34:47.243 --> 00:34:50.523 no one ever argues about the trademark for Shopify, for example. 00:34:50.943 --> 00:34:56.083 There's a marketplace, we take a cut, we run the thing, but in WordPress's 00:34:56.123 --> 00:35:02.193 case, the difference is the code is all open source, and, I mean, that's kind 00:35:02.193 --> 00:35:04.173 of a little bit how it is in Drupal. 00:35:04.933 --> 00:35:09.873 That there is a billion dollar behemoth sitting at the top of the ecosystem. 00:35:10.943 --> 00:35:13.393 from day one, Dreece has always been clear. 00:35:13.733 --> 00:35:14.453 We own this. 00:35:15.503 --> 00:35:16.633 Drupal is my baby. 00:35:16.633 --> 00:35:18.123 I sit on the Drupal Foundation. 00:35:18.323 --> 00:35:23.023 so clarity, I guess, is the thing you're looking for most, most of all. 00:35:23.038 --> 00:35:26.028 Matt: yeah, yeah, that, that, I mean, that, that clarity. 00:35:26.048 --> 00:35:30.148 And, again, this is why I'm a proponent for the, for the open source side of it 00:35:30.148 --> 00:35:37.498 and, and, and why I want folks to not just like Nick, like negatively, talk about it. 00:35:37.548 --> 00:35:41.788 Because, yeah, you know, I, no issue like, and I've been saying this, 00:35:41.848 --> 00:35:45.668 on some other, podcasts as well as like make WordPress, if WordPress. 00:35:45.668 --> 00:35:47.048 com has the better WordPress, fine. 00:35:48.353 --> 00:35:52.183 Fine make make your better version of WordPress over there And then the 00:35:52.203 --> 00:35:57.333 ecosystem will make their better version of WordPress through like your tools with 00:35:57.333 --> 00:36:02.423 published press somebody might be using beaver builder That's their better version 00:36:02.703 --> 00:36:08.748 and let the ecosystem survive and you know I'm not super doomsday where I think 00:36:08.748 --> 00:36:12.518 all of a sudden WordPress won't be GPL anymore we won't have that stuff anymore 00:36:12.768 --> 00:36:18.528 or that ability but You know certainly want to encourage You know, WordPress, 00:36:18.588 --> 00:36:23.208 excuse me, automatic to survive and be profitable and do all the things and 00:36:23.208 --> 00:36:25.048 maybe that'll make a happier mullinwag. 00:36:25.248 --> 00:36:30.728 And then the rest of us can move on with our lives and, you know, there it is. 00:36:31.108 --> 00:36:34.088 you'll see less word camps, you might see less community stuff because 00:36:34.088 --> 00:36:37.608 now people form the pockets of things, but it's already happening. 00:36:37.798 --> 00:36:39.278 So let's just, let's just get there. 00:36:40.278 --> 00:36:40.708 That's it. 00:36:41.393 --> 00:36:44.993 Steve: I mean, how, how many successful open source projects 00:36:45.223 --> 00:36:52.053 are there that don't have a, a big corporate behemoth leading the way? 00:36:52.073 --> 00:36:53.913 I mean, a lot of the JavaScript libraries are involved with 00:36:53.933 --> 00:36:55.343 companies like, like Google. 00:36:55.343 --> 00:37:01.163 it could be a fairly essential part of a successful open source 00:37:01.163 --> 00:37:05.633 project is having an unashamedly money making part of things. 00:37:06.443 --> 00:37:12.383 Um, but, yeah, a key portion of that is having very clear legal guidelines. 00:37:13.003 --> 00:37:14.883 very clear commercial guidelines around it. 00:37:14.883 --> 00:37:16.313 And, yeah, you're right. 00:37:16.313 --> 00:37:16.723 Probably. 00:37:16.723 --> 00:37:19.913 we don't know in the end whether the glass is going to be half full or half empty, 00:37:20.093 --> 00:37:20.383 Matt: Sure. 00:37:20.823 --> 00:37:25.853 Steve: look forward two, three years, we could still be stuck in sort of little. 00:37:26.663 --> 00:37:32.713 Twitter spats or Reddit thread arguments with, with Matt throwing things out, 00:37:32.783 --> 00:37:37.553 or there could be an adult in the room, hopefully Matt himself, to come 00:37:37.553 --> 00:37:42.353 along and say, we're going to run our community along X, Y, and Z lines. 00:37:42.353 --> 00:37:45.313 And, at the end of the day, I, I'm one of the co founders. 00:37:45.803 --> 00:37:47.633 I run the, the corporate behemoth. 00:37:48.093 --> 00:37:50.213 You follow X, Y, and Z and you like it or lump it. 00:37:51.293 --> 00:37:51.583 Matt: Yeah. 00:37:52.983 --> 00:37:54.043 That's Steve Burge. 00:37:54.043 --> 00:37:56.733 That's steve at steveburge. 00:37:56.733 --> 00:37:57.433 com. 00:37:57.433 --> 00:37:58.723 Check out PublishPress. 00:37:58.743 --> 00:38:01.193 check out all of the tools that Steve has. 00:38:01.193 --> 00:38:03.463 Folks, definitely give Steve a follow. 00:38:03.473 --> 00:38:05.603 Check out his tools, especially if you're a publisher or you 00:38:05.603 --> 00:38:07.773 care about the publishing that you're doing with WordPress. 00:38:07.773 --> 00:38:09.993 Steve, where else do you want folks to go to say thanks? 00:38:11.063 --> 00:38:11.673 Steve: Oh, that's it. 00:38:11.733 --> 00:38:15.823 head over to, to PublishPress, and keep up the great work, Matt. 00:38:15.883 --> 00:38:19.363 I've, been following your podcasts and your Slack channel for years. 00:38:19.693 --> 00:38:24.723 one good place to find me would be in the WP Minute Slack, where we hang 00:38:24.723 --> 00:38:26.553 out and talk WordPress every day. 00:38:26.743 --> 00:38:26.913 Matt: Yeah. 00:38:27.423 --> 00:38:27.663 Yeah. 00:38:27.663 --> 00:38:28.313 That's awesome stuff. 00:38:28.313 --> 00:38:28.673 Thanks, Steve. 00:38:28.673 --> 00:38:29.463 Thanks for hanging out today. 00:38:29.743 --> 00:38:30.133 Steve: Cheers, Matt.