Welcome, Matt and Kay.
Thank you so much for being here.
Absolutely, this is wonderful.
I just...
I'm so excited for you to share your story about Green Llama and what initially
inspired you to come into the green cleaning product field and also have
environmentally friendly packaging.
Yeah, great question.
Let's see.
Early in the COVID pandemic, I had been on a journey to reduce plastic and waste in
my everyday life.
So I had switched a lot of our home products over to a plastic-free option.
At the same time, Matt was brainstorming a business idea for science.
Matt, as a neuroscientist, he said, what if I made
these pre-made buffers for scientists.
They don't have to mix them in the lab.
We were cleaning our house at this time and I said, well, how about one of those
for my all-purpose cleaner so I don't have to buy a new plastic bottle every time?
We, like many, if you open under our sink, there were mounds of plastic bottles.
Then we did a little research, looked up different ingredients, eco-friendly, and I
said, Matt, do you
Do you think we could do something like this?
And he said, yeah.
And that is where it all began.
She gave me the freedom to play essentially.
So we started ordering ingredients.
The kitchen turned into a little lab and that's where we started.
And then it was sort of like a downward train.
We just couldn't get off.
It's a lot of.
Yeah, I hear you.
Sometimes going down that rabbit hole, you just can't go back.
And it's hard to unknow what you know about chemicals and about environmental
impact of plastics.
And I had a similar journey myself.
prior to COVID with learning about plastic pollution and trying to eliminate
everything in my own home so I can totally relate with your journey.
And I'm not a scientist, so I just had to do it with products that were available to
me.
And really, like up until I found you guys, I was using vinegar.
Well, anyone that uses vinegar, I always get taken back to being a kid because of
course, fish and chips have salt and vinegar on them a lot.
So it always reminded me of that.
But yeah, the cleaners that we make are they're essential oils and they smell a
lot nicer than vinegar.
So much better, so much.
And it cleans more easily too.
It's a little bit more like familiar to what you were maybe using before switching
because I find that there was that learning curve too of going from like all
the stuff that just.
makes things so easy to clean.
And then finding out all those chemicals that make it easy are also not good for
me, my skin, my respiratory, my dog, on the floor after I clean the floor.
And so, yeah, I just took time to learn how to clean with vinegar, but it was a
learning curve.
And so I love that your product doesn't have that steep.
difference and learning curve is just like a new thing.
Just throw in the tabs, shake it up and wait a little bit and then you're off and
running.
So that's really great.
Yes.
we did that.
Reducing plastic was the first thought in creating these products, but having a
non-toxic option was also, it had to be that way as well.
So we looked at different lists from the EPA Safer Choice.
We referenced the environmental working group information to find ingredients that
are non-toxic,
but also are effective.
And that took us to, that narrowed down the ingredients that we sourced first to
do our testing and start making the formulations.
So it was, okay, we can use these.
So let's get those and let's see what we can make.
So.
use.
It's a very small list, right, Matt?
It definitely was reduced.
When you look on the back of a regular cleaning product with all the different
ingredients on there, the majority of those were taken off our starting list.
Then again, just by doing some research and then by cross-checking against the
environmental working group, we narrowed it down to five or six different
surfactants that we might want to use as well as other ingredients that are
critical.
for tablet production or at least maintaining a tablet's integrity.
It was pretty small after doing a lot of research.
My background is academia and of course, research in different aspects of my own
work sort of lent itself towards this type of work, so the screening essentially.
Mm-hmm.
what is just noise and what is actual information.
So, long story short, yes, exactly.
But again, sort of the training and the background it sort of helped sift through
it.
Yeah, it helped you be able to just focus on and know exactly what you were looking
for.
Yeah, and I feel like there are products out there who have tried to eliminate like
the packaging and do a refill bottle, but still coming in a plastic refill
container.
And those products are also not so focused on ingredients either.
So, of course.
scrolling through, I think it was Instagram or Facebook, and there was a
product, and the title, it was for dishwasher tablets, and the headline was
100% plastic free.
And then the first comment was, your packaging is plastic.
And, so it's not really 100, yeah, so that gets into a different topic, but I thought
that was fascinating.
You know, with a lot of the brands that still use plastic, the green cleaners that
are really popular, you know, on a lot of shelves, we see it as there was progress,
but we're going to keep going.
If that makes sense, we're going to build on it because, yes, you can have a green
non-toxic formula, but if it's coming in a plastic spray bottle...
then that is going to eventually end up in our landfills, hopefully not our oceans,
but possibly plastic takes a thousand, yeah, I don't know the exact number of
thousands of years to break down.
It depends on the type of plastic as well.
Right.
away the whole bottle, you're throwing away that hard plastic head, all of it.
Like, you know, even if you can recycle or in a place where you can recycle the
bottle, let's say in your curbside bin, the head cannot be.
And I guess this is a good segue to talk about the one piece of plastic that you
guys can't avoid.
But I love what you guys did with how you source the the plastic to make that.
Mm-hmm.
nozzle for your glass bottles.
So let's talk about that.
Absolutely.
So we have for our surface cleaners, we have, as we've talked about, tablets that
dissolve in our refillable glass bottles.
But of course, the trigger spray, they are up until now all 100% plastic.
So we have partnered with a company that is able to recycle decommissioned wind
turbine blades.
And that is a whole other podcast on its own,
Absolutely.
Our blind blades have a waste problem.
They are hard to get rid of, they're hard to recycle, but this company is doing it.
So our trigger sprays, we use their material to make our trigger sprays.
So they are reduced plastic and more robust because it contains fiberglass from
a blade, which is really cool.
So a little bit of serendipity.
So we were partnered with this company when we were on an accelerator program.
It was sort of like a mix of serendipity and ingenuity when we're sitting next to
these guys and they're talking about their product.
And I thought, holy moly, we can use that.
So basically one of the strengths is literally a strength.
The trigger sprays are reinforced with fiberglass, which makes them a lot
stronger.
So they last a lot longer than a traditional trigger spray, which of course
is the whole point of the product.
It's reusing
we're very proud of that.
We're the first company in the world to do something different in that sense.
And we're just a tiny we have a very small company in East Tennessee.
That being said, it's at the very beginning.
So it's not perfect.
And that's something we'll keep working on over time.
Right.
the name of the trigger sprays ended up being Windblade.
Yeah.
Is that right?
I want to say there was some chat GPT involved in there too, but it titled it.
We called it Windblade.
And we were like, we like that.
The Windblade.
It makes it sound like a superhero trigger spray.
Guys are trend setting, I love it.
This is what we need, we need innovation.
We have to use the plastics that are out there, that exist and find unique ways.
And tell us again, you were somewhere where you
we joined an accelerator program, which was running close to where we're based in
East Tennessee.
So the accelerator program ran for about eight weeks, and I think it was one of the
critical junctures in our journey that turned us from sort of like an organized
hobby into more of a business.
But as...
part of the accelerator, we were grouped, our cohort had five different companies,
everyone with completely disparate ideas, but all focused around clean tech.
So we were part of that.
And of course, we made friends and one of the companies there was this company that
was sort of recycling, upcycling wind turbine blades, but they didn't really
have any use for it.
And we said, all right, let's get it into a consumer product.
Wow.
That's what we did.
So again, we're very early in that journey and I think that we've still got
improvements to make.
But I mean, my goal, of course, is to have a hundred percent plastic free trigger
spray.
But at this point, it's not possible with the materials that we've got available to
us.
So we're thinking about how we can get there.
Right.
that's how it all begins is the seed is planted and you also planted the seed for
those people who have the wind turbines that need to be somehow used.
It was a lot of fun working with them because we were the first company to take
the material and make it into something that is used that we're going to sell.
Functional, right?
They had a lot of really cool demos.
They had made a snowboard and a little boat figurine out of their materials.
But we'd, you know.
took it into something as part of our product, which was a lot of fun.
So gave them proof of concept and that they want to recycle the full blades into
new blades, but also that this can be used in different ways.
It was cool for us because we turned the weakest part of our product, which is that
Plastic Trigger Spray into literally one of the strongest parts of the product.
And I would like to know, if you've had any other major challenges or obstacles
along the way, I mean, that doesn't sound like it was a challenge.
The, you know, it was very, the universe puts you in the right group with the right
people at the right time, but I'm sure that you've had some actual challenges and
struggles doing this in a way that's.
environmentally sound and also chemical free for people's health as well.
So if you could share a little bit about that.
How much time do you have?
That's a whole episode.
Let's talk about like the biggest thing that where you were like maybe thinking,
should we be doing this?
How many moments?
Yeah.
Oh, the biggest challenge.
That would you say production, finding the right packaging?
I'd start off with sort of confidence and belief.
Yeah.
From a very fundamental level as a human.
And transitioning from, again, I'm an academic by training.
So I've spent my entire career in a lab.
apart from the early days when I delivered papers and milk and so on and so forth.
But if you take my meaning, I've spent my entire life in a lab and Kay, as an OT
who's special, who's worked a lot with children.
It's not, it doesn't, those careers, I don't think necessarily lend themselves to
entrepreneurship.
So connecting to solve those types of challenges, it's really been about
connecting to people who can almost help.
in still belief.
And so we've worked with Founders Forge in East Tennessee, who's a it's a group that
helps startups essentially.
The bootcamp, the accelerator program that we joined was also critical in terms of
building sort of like a confidence in oneself and the business that we've got.
And again, I think we create great products and we're solving a really big
problem as well.
as part of that movement too.
But so yeah, from a personal level, it's that.
And then we started off, as I said, we were a true startup in that sense.
We started off in the kitchen.
We then converted our backyard sort of garage into the Lama Lab.
And translation garage.
Oh, sorry.
So our backyard garage became.
came along lab, we kitted it out so it's dry.
We've had to deal with very tough conditions like humidity and temperature
outside, which are a challenge whenever you, again, as a scientist, you want
everything to be very continuous or at least repeatable.
And if you've got temperatures ranging wildly up and down, but again, as a
startup, capital is always a problem because you don't have the money to go out
and get a standard space and unit where...
So that's another potential problem, or at least that's a problem that we've dealt
with over the last year and a half.
Right.
When starting this business, once we got our first product ready to go, we met with
a man that is an entrepreneur of multiple businesses and he said, oh, well, you've
got the easy part down, now you just need to sell it.
So honestly-
sell it.
You're like, wait, that was the easy part?
then for us, that has, there's been a learning curve of like, oh, if we get this
great product, the selling isn't going to be easy.
But but we found, oh, wow, it's, it's getting over the hurdles, getting the
education out there, letting people know that this is an option that this is here.
Mm-hmm.
that there are other options to grabbing a plastic bottle off the shelf.
So that has been a challenge, growing the business.
We've learned a lot.
of that is raising awareness around plastic pollution in general, not just for
cleaning products, but just for every product that we bring into our homes
that's packaged and wrapped in plastic and is made of plastic, right?
So yeah, that's definitely a huge, huge thing for everybody who's doing this to
overcome is like bringing
people to up to speed with what's going on with that and why it's important and how
do we overcome it?
And the solution is products like yours, obviously, but it just takes time and it
takes a village of people sharing what they know.
And especially I think amongst parents, we all care.
We all want the future to be good for our children.
And
we all care, but I think there's a disconnect between like understanding that
there's a problem, like, okay, we know there's a problem, but what do I do about
it?
You know, how do I solve that problem?
Because it wasn't easy to find your products, I have to say, like, and I'm a
researcher, I'm like on it, and I am looking for, you know, I'm looking for
products like yours, and it took me a while.
I don't even remember like how I finally stumbled upon your product, it was
probably just,
I mean, I dig and I dig and you don't know how many tabs I close.
I click and I like know exactly what I'm looking for by now.
I've been doing this for many years, like you guys, you know, probably seven years
ago is when I learned about plastic pollution.
And prior to that, it was chemicals.
And so trying to find the two of those combined.
people are interested in finding these products, but man, it is hard.
Not easy.
Right.
And then we do.
keep sharing, and raising awareness and, you know, just putting it out there and it
will come because
we very much appreciate you being a part of that and putting us on here so that we
can share the story.
Absolutely.
I would love to talk about your packaging further, because you do have some laundry
detergent that is in a bag.
And also, your little tabs come in a bag, and I would just love to know a little bit
about that packaging and how you do that.
what it is, how it was sourced, and then how do we properly dispose of it when
we're finished.
Sure.
Yes, our packaging, we, it definitely has to be very recyclable or compostable.
We sourced a material for our laundry bags.
and our tablets and soon to be dishwasher tablets.
And it is outside craft paper.
And then inside it is material called PLA that is compostable.
And this does get confusing because right now we don't live in a world, we have our
recycle bins or many people do, not everyone.
I know it depends on the city and location but there's not a compost bin where the
city picks it up.
Some places do have that.
In our local area, there is a composting facility where we can bring our food
scraps or compostable material.
But what happens with this material, it's not going to last for a thousand years and
it will break down into soil.
Our current material is an industrial compostable.
There is a great website, and I apologize, I don't have it right in mind, but you can
Google composting facilities in your area.
There is a long list of all the composting spots that there are, so see if there is
one in your local area.
I know they're out there because...
and this is a fun story,
So we received an email off a very frustrated person who it turns out was he
owns or runs a compost facility.
And I learned that his frustration stems from being sent all sorts of packaging,
which is claimed to be compostable.
But, of course.
But of course, because there's no certification on it, he doesn't know
whether it can be composted or not.
So he has some hesitation in terms of actually doing it.
So he received some green llama packaging and he sent out a frustrated email.
What is it made out of?
How do you know it's compostable?
So on and so forth.
So of course I engaged with him and learnt.
sort of where his frustration is coming from.
And we started adding the TUV certification onto the packaging so that
composters actually know that the material is compostable, as well as developing a
page on the website that explains what our packaging is made from.
So everybody can understand exactly.
So it's not essentially, we're not just trying to greenwash the packaging.
Right.
So this is a great segue to talk about greenwashing.
from your standpoint how common is it?
I think we talked about it a little bit when I was explaining how long it took me
to find your product and how many tabs I opened and closed right away, who were
claiming to be
Lean mean and green and who actually are not.
So yeah, just from your standpoint, how, how does it affect you?
The one I think about that isn't related to cleaning, but it shows how powerful
marketing is.
I saw a green plastic grocery bag one time and my mind went to, oh, more
eco-friendly.
But then I looked at it and I thought, oh no, it's just a normal plastic bag.
That's the color green.
So colors and things that we associate with eco-friendly can be on there and can
be powerful.
Yeah.
Yeah, there are the plastic bottles.
And I do want to say with a lot of green cleaners out there, we're back to that
progress.
There are the really strong, tough, harsh ingredients that are harmful to our
health.
And then we have some greener products, and they're better.
And then we are trying to tackle that to an even further degree.
But yeah, there are very popular green.
cleaning products that are very well known.
And when we looked through the ingredients, we found some that we didn't
wanna have in our home.
These could be petroleum-based ingredients.
Yeah, but petroleum-based, we want plant-based or we want natural occurring,
naturally derived.
Some have palm oil-based, which I know some palm oil is better than others, but
it's still a problem for the environment.
Dyes.
There are a million dyes out there, some safer than others, but there have been
health concerns there, synthetic fragrances.
And then I am gonna let this next one, can you pronounce it?
This is one I see a lot, so I wanna bring it up.
I call it MIT, but.
Let's let people know because I feel like educating people to, you know, just have
an awareness around things is what we're here for.
Yeah, so there was a recent study published in Sweden that showed regular
and prolonged use of household chemicals, household cleaning products can be
equivalent to smoking 20 cigarettes a day, which is a pretty surprising statistic,
but that just sort of is an insight into the
household cleaning products.
Now, exactly.
hiding under a few natural products or ingredients, excuse me.
absolutely and as an example of that, so there's a green cleaner, actually there's
a few green cleaners that use something called methyl isothiazolinone.
That's the one.
Let me say that again.
So that's a preservative and it was awarded by the American Dermatological
Society 2013 Allergen of the Year.
but that's still present in a lot of green cleaning products today.
And then, of course, there's the more traditional and regular cleaners that
maybe they have a green, as Kay mentioned now, they have a green packaging, but
those chemicals are essentially still the same.
The sodium lauryl sulfate is very common in a lot of...
laundry as well as surface cleaners and dish soap.
And a derivative of SLS is SLES, sodium laureth sulfate.
That's derived from an ethoxylation process, which ultimately produces in its
byproducts toxins and ingredients known as dioxane.
currently under scrutiny in the state of New York and is present in some laundry
products.
And so they're considering a ban and certainly are regulating those
ingredients.
And again, a lot of these ingredients are present in green cleaners, essentially.
So I think one of the advantages we've got is we built this product from the ground
up.
And one of the unique things I think about us is we...
built the formulas.
We didn't go out to another company.
We didn't go out to someone that knows all.
And this is why when we talked about challenges, if we went back to the
beginning, maybe we would do things a little bit different.
But at the same time, we've got a wonderful story.
We own our own formulas and we own the production.
So we're able to regulate what goes in it.
We know what's been through the machines prior to that.
So yeah, I truly think that what we're doing is...
the opposite of greenwashing, essentially.
You took the hard path.
You did the hard stuff first.
And now you don't, now you're good.
I mean, tweaking, sure.
But I mean, other than that, like you don't have to go back in time and undo a
bunch of stuff.
Like right now you're just trying to improve on something that's already really
great.
And really clean and really.
legitimately green.
I will tell you if I vet you guys like you guys are good to go.
I have a very strict standard.
Really green.
I want to throw this in here too, just like the trigger sprays, we have improved
them, everything in our products from the packaging to the ingredients.
We also are going to throw out.
we're not 100% perfect, but we are going to continue towards that path step by
step.
So we're doing it as perfect as we can right now, but our goal as a company is
just that we've, sustainability and health is the forefront of our minds from the
start, not an afterthought, like, oh, we need to change it because of the times.
And that's our goal to keep being that way.
So as we find things like, oh, this could be better.
that is our plan, progress over perfection.
Yeah, we're gonna always take steps to be a little better.
I love that, I love that.
Cause a lot of times it's just people trying to keep up with the latest trend
and what couple of ingredients can we throw in to make it seem green or
whatever.
And there are no regulations on the claims that people can make.
So that's important I think for everybody to be aware of is that there's nothing out
there that says what the regulation for claiming to be green or clean or have...
environmentally friendly packaging, there's zero.
So people can really say whatever they want on their food and, you know,
household product cleaning or shampoo, toothpaste, whatever.
Yeah.
it.
It's all incumbent upon the manufacturer, the company to do that themselves.
So I like, as Kay said, it's like we built with sustainability, health and
effectiveness in from the very beginning.
We didn't we didn't focus on an effective formula and then backtrack and then say,
oh, but we should probably make it a little more safe for home.
Right.
It's already totally there.
And tell us a little bit about Green Llama.
Like, where does that come from?
Sure.
Yeah, apart from llamas being fun and cute and cuddly, we wanted a fun name.
We wanted something memorable.
So that was the start.
And when we looked into llamas after we thought about green llama, they have soft
padded feet.
So they literally tread lightly on the earth.
They are pack animals.
beast of burden, they do the work for you.
And they're eco-friendly animals, they eat a lot less than other pack animals, for
example.
So they work hard for you, they do the work for you, they tread lightly on the
earth, minimal impact on the environment, and then they are also can be put in with
alpacas or other animals as a protector.
They tend to be protective animals, so we see that as protecting your family, your
pets, your, mm-hmm, and your environment.
and our environment that we all share.
The greater environment that we all live in on the planet.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
So that's why green limo.
And green's a little obvious.
Well, that too has a little story behind it.
We were at an alpaca farm out by Sugar Mountain, which is in the Appalachian
Mountains.
And we were visiting this alpaca farm.
It was a dreary day and we sort of saw this white llama off in the distance, but
under the light and conditions, it kind of looked dirty and green.
So we went with green.
That was entirely Kay's idea.
Well, sometimes we get inspired by nature and you just have to roll with it, right?
Especially because that's part of your whole brand anyways, is to be light on
mother nature.
And that's what this podcast is all about too, is in helping people learn how to
leave a lighter footprint.
That's what Live Lightly is all about.
So I really love that you guys are out here doing this
and creating things that are actually safe for us to use in our homes around our
children and our pets.
So where can we find you?
Where can we learn more?
And also just product updates.
I know you guys have something coming out pretty soon, so we wanna be on the lookout
for that.
So, we're gonna be looking at some of the things
Yes, our website is greenlamaclean.com.
And there, if you do want updates, we have a newsletter sign up.
So that's how to keep in touch.
We are also, we are working on a new store directory, in stores across the US in over
35 states and continuously growing there.
A lot of natural food, grocery stores, co-ops, refilleries, eco-stores.
But for online, the easiest way is to go to our website.
Okay, so you can make orders online at your website if there's nothing locally
available in your own community, which I love that you guys are out there in some
co-ops and stores.
And so where is that directory to be able to find you?
Is that on your website?
So we're building that at the moment.
We're in about 120 stores across, as Kay said, 35 states.
So it's, aside from the production, the manufacturing, the products and
distribution that we do, we'll get to that as soon as we can.
Right.
Exactly.
store that sells these types of products.
Otherwise, go to the website and you guys ship it pretty fast.
So, yeah.
We also, in the shipping, if you're thinking about that piece of it, since we
have removed the water from our products, from the dish soap is concentrated, the
tablets are concentrated, the laundry is, you need just a tablespoon, we are going
to reduce our impact there just by lowering the weight of what we send.
I will.
If anyone's got any suggestions as to the local stores they want to see Green Llama,
please shoot us an email and we'll reach out to them and contact them.
Absolutely, that's a great idea, because that's how we get the good stuff on the
shelves.
Really, we have to let our stores know that we want this product, A, and then we
need to let you know that there's a store that we want you to contact.
So that's a great idea.
And also, if you are ordering online, you can use code JESSICA.
at checkout and they'll receive 15% off.
So that's a bonus if you are needing to order it online at this time.
Yeah, and I also just wanted to let everybody know that I'm going to drop all
these links in the description and in the show notes.
Sure.
and yeah, just, um, thank you guys so much.
I know we're going to have more conversations in the future about, um, new
products and just other parts of your journey.
And, um, but I think that this was a great beginning, a place to start because, we
just really need to let people know who you are and what you're all about and why.
Yeah.
that's all right if I jump in with one more thing.
As Matt and I and you have been on the journey to improve our home products and
everything we use around us for our environment, I wanna throw out that at
times for me, it got very overwhelming and you could probably relate.
So I wanna throw out how we wanna see our brand, like taking steps towards
better and better, that one thing at a time is the way to go.
Because it's really easy to, if you learn about the plastic, you learn about the
ingredients, you wanna fix everything at once and it can get overwhelming.
So a ladder, one little step at a time.
Mm-hmm.
First, it's changing out your cleaning products and my guide is a really great
place to go find everything that your whole household needs.
So I'll link to the guide, of course, also because I've done all the research.
I've done all the trial and error and overwhelm and.
and sifted through all that for everybody.
And also the interviews will be with people like you who have founded companies
that are moving in the right direction.
And so those stories will also help support people in finding everything that
they need for their entire home.
And it's not that we're, I'm trying to sell anybody anything that they're not
already buying because I'm not, you're already buying this stuff.
Like why not just make it?
better for your family and yourself, obviously, and for the planet, right?
And support these companies that are out there, doing the work, the hard work like
you guys, because they're not big companies.
They're small companies like yours, and family-owned a lot of them, and just
moving in the right direction.
So we need to all support each other, for sure.
Love that.
Yes.
yeah, thanks again for...
Thank you for having us.
of course.
Thank you