Books & Bites Podcast, Ep. 107: Books with Dragons === Carrie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Books and Bites podcast. Each month we bring you book recommendations and discuss the bites and beverages to pair with them. I'm Carrie Green, and I'm here with my co-hosts, Michael Cunningham and Jacqueline Cooper. Michael: Hello. Jacqueline: Hi everyone. Carrie: So there are just two months, about two months to go of the summer-fall bingo sheet. How are you guys doing with your bingo sheet so far? Jacqueline: I've got a few left, but the cold weather's setting in. So. Carrie: You think you're gonna be able to do it? Jacqueline: Yeah, I think I'll have more time to read when it's cold. Carrie: Yeah. Jacqueline: Less things to do out and about. Carrie: Yeah. And Michael, I know t-ball has been cutting into your reading time. Michael: Yeah, it did. It did in September. So I'm going to have to really knuckle down and get through some of these prompts here soon. Carrie: Yeah, I've been reading you know, [00:01:00] probably the same amount, but I haven't necessarily been paying attention to the bingo sheet as far as the prompts that we don't cover on the podcast. So I am a little bit behind in that regard. Jacqueline: Luckily we have a few freebies. Carrie: Yeah, I think I may have used up some of those already. Jacqueline: Oh. [All laugh] Carrie: But yeah. Anyway, but you know, for us, we don't get a prize, so it's really just kind of for the fun of it anyway, so. Jacqueline: It's very rewarding to fill those. I always put the titles in there and then I highlight it, so. For people who like to tick off boxes, I think it's a fun way to do that. Carrie: Yeah. I've never really been motivated by ticking off boxes. Or, like, [All laugh] Jacqueline: oh, I love that. Carrie: Or [00:02:00] lists, or, you know, so I know my husband, he really, he loves a list. He says that's his love language. [All laugh] Jacqueline: Yeah. I like a list too. That's funny. Carrie: So anyway, we've been doing this for a long time, so I guess it's, you know, it's only right to have a few lulls. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Carrie: But we hope that you, the listeners out there, are still feeling motivated by bingo. Michael: You can do it! [Laughter] Jacqueline: And you get to shout bingo when you're done. Michael: Make sure you go to Jackie and shout bingo when you're done. [All laugh] Jacqueline: There you go. Come to the Teen Library and let me know you got a bingo! Carrie: All right, so Michael, I think we were gonna remind people that we do have a Silent Book Club coming up. Michael: Yes. Join us for our next Silent Book Club on Wednesday, November 19th from 6:30 to 7:30 in front of the fireplace, inside the Main Library. You know, we will have light refreshments, some good silent reading time to catch up on your current read or maybe, you know, to finish up some of those prompts you need to work on. And some good bookish conversation. We had a good turnout last time and looking forward to it again. Carrie: Yeah, we did. And that's also a chance to, if you attend one of those, if you haven't attended one so far, you do get an extra free square, right? Michael: Yeah. I'm gonna need that free square. Jacqueline: Yeah. Carrie: And let's see. Also, just wanted to remind you that if you're planning to do a Book Match Bundle, there's a square [00:04:00] where you can do either a Book Match Bundle or a Book Venture, to get those requests in now. It seems like people wait until the last minute to get those in sometimes, and so it can kind of, you know, it's not AI doing that. It's a librarian. So, we like to space them out as much as possible. Jacqueline, did you wanna talk about the Book Venture? Jacqueline: Yeah, but we have plenty of Book Ventures in right now, so I don't know if they're gonna have a run on them if it gets colder. But right now we have, our newest one is The Naturals by Jennifer Lynn Barnes, if you like serial killers and mysteries. Michael: Sign me up. Jacqueline: Yeah. And then Cinder for sci-fi fans, Caraval, and Divine Rivals for fantasy fans and The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes also for sci-fi and Sort of Summer for [00:05:00] fantasy. Now these are limited time, so they're only, we only have them for so long, so we only keep seven titles so when we add a new one, we have to take one away. So be sure and get all your Book Ventures read. Michael: Okay. Carrie: Sounds like you have a lot of variety in the Book Ventures right now. Jacqueline: Yeah, I try to mix it up a little bit. So, you know, not everyone likes fantasy, so we wanna have some, Michael: What's the next one that's gonna go? Jacqueline: The next one is going to be Once Upon a Broken Heart, and then we also have My Lady Jane coming up, which is, it's kinda like historical fiction. It's, it's about, Jane Grey. Carrie: Oh, I think, did you? Yeah, Jacqueline: I think I might have done that. Carrie: Did you do that for Books & Bites? Jacqueline: I think I did do that for a Books & Bites podcast. It's a kind of a fun book. And then, I'm thinking of doing a romance next, a realistic romance because that seems to be really popular right now. So that might be. And I don't, I haven't done a realistic one, so, but I'll take suggestions if anyone has any [00:06:00] suggestions. Michael: I got, no, nevermind. I'm just kidding. Jacqueline: I know, the Clown in the Corn Field. Michael: Yeah. That one. [All laugh] Carrie: All right. So, today we're talking about books with dragons, which is one of the prompts on the current bingo sheet. And I think books with dragons are really popular right now, too. Especially in romantasy. Michael: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Looking at you Fourth Wing. Jacqueline: Ooh, yeah. Wings of Fire is really popular with my age group, they love that book. Michael: Is that like a romantasy? Jacqueline: It's more adventure and dragons and Michael: What is it? What was it called again? Jacqueline: It's called Wings of Fire. Michael: Wings of Fire. I haven't heard of that. Jacqueline: Yeah. Carrie: My niece is really into that one. Michael: Okay. Yeah. Jacqueline: And they have a graphic novel version too. So. Carrie: Yeah, I think she's read both. Jacqueline: Okay. Well, good. Yeah. See, they're dedicated. Carrie: But even if you don't [00:07:00] read fantasy I think there are still plenty of options out there. The book that I am gonna talk about today is like historical fantasy, like it kind of, you know, it's historical fiction, but then it has this fantastical element of the dragons and, you know, a couple books that I have talked about in the past on the podcast, The Buried Giant by Kazuo Ishiguro. And that was more like a mythic or folkloric kind of book. Beowulf, you know. So people have been talking about dragons for a long, long time. Michael: Two I want to plug, one just came out, I haven't read it yet. Joe Hill has his new book just came out called King Sorrow, and it's about a bunch of kids that summon a dragon. And it's a big, it's a big tome, and it's real popular right now. And then of course my, one of my all time favorite series, you know, a Song of [00:08:00] Ice and Fire, which is Jacqueline: mm-hmm. Michael: Full of dragons. Yep. Jacqueline: Absolutely. Oh yeah. Michael: And then you got The Hobbit with Smaug. Carrie: Yep. So you can't, can't go wrong with The Hobbit. Michael: What about you, Jackie? You got any? Jacqueline: I can't, I don't remember the author, but Burn. I also read that one and it was pretty good, especially if you like alternate worlds and universes, and I would check that one out for YA fans. Carrie: Okay. All right, well if you haven't read this prompt already, hopefully you'll find something that you want to read. Michael: My dragon book pick is Brighter Than Scale, Swifter Than Flame by Neon Yang. This novella tells the story of Yeva, the fabled masked guildknight of Mithrandon — a weapon of the Sun Emperor and a living legend. She never removes her helm or armor and has slain countless dragons with her sword, Varuhelt, alongside her wyrmhound companion, Sage, a gift from her father. Yeva’s life as a guildknight began after she slew a small dragon as a child to protect her sister. That act, which revealed her gift, led her father to send her away to the capital, Mithrandon, to train as one of the Empire’s elite dragon hunters. Now a celebrated guildknight, Yeva is sent on a mission to the neighboring country of Quanbao — a small southern kingdom that reveres dragons rather than hunting them. The Sun Emperor suspects that a dangerous storm dragon, one Yeva’s guild lost track of over a decade ago, has taken refuge within Quanbao’s borders. Using this as a pretext for an invasion, he has the guildmaster dispatch Yeva to investigate. As an outsider in Quanbao — a place her mother once visited often — Yeva is received as an honored guest in the palace. While she searches for signs of the dragon, she begins to open up to Lady Sookhee, the young girl-king of Quanbao. Through their growing friendship and slow-burn romance, Yeva starts to rediscover parts of herself she long buried after being sent away to Mithrandon. But when she uncovers a network of tunnels that snake beneath the mountain where the palace stands — and evidence of a living dragon — Yeva is torn between her duty to the Empire and the new bond she’s formed with Lady Sookhee. Brighter Than Scale, Swifter Than Flame has all the potential of an epic fantasy, but at its heart, it’s a story of identity, loyalty, and love set against a backdrop of dragons and empires. This beautifully written, slow-burn romantasy was published earlier this year, and it’s a perfect pick for a couple of other prompts too, like a book released in 2025 and a romantasy. And for the perfect pairing while you read — I went with a Dragon’s Milk Ice Cream Float. It uses New Holland’s Dragon’s Milk stout, which is aged in bourbon barrels for three months. It’s rich and complex, with notes of coffee, chocolate, and just a hint of vanilla and oak. All you need is a scoop of vanilla ice cream, an ounce each of bourbon and chocolate syrup, gently stir, and then pour over a bottle of Dragon’s Milk. If you want to be extra like me, top it with whipped cream, marshmallows, and chocolate shavings. Carrie: Whoa. Michael: Yeah. Carrie: Can't go wrong there! Michael: Mmm-mmm, no. Carrie: That sounds good. Michael: Yeah. Carrie: So you got your romantasy in. [Laughter] Michael: I did. I know. I, yeah, it had to be a book with a dragon, so I guess I couldn't fulfill that prompt. Carrie: Oh, yeah, yeah. Michael: But I did read one. Carrie: Yes. [Laughs] Jacqueline: There you go. Carrie: So that's definitely a little outside what you normally read. Michael: I enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. You had this kind of Asian-inspired fantasy. I mean, I think it would've been like you could make a great, like epic, real big book out of it or series with the world building she kind of lays down as a [00:12:00] foundation. Carrie: Is it part of a series? Michael: It's not, no. Carrie: Hmm. Michael: As of yet. Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Michael: That'd be really cool. She does have a few other fantasy books, I think they're tied together. Might be like a trilogy. Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Michael: What was it called? Like what was it? The Black Tide and I can't remember the other two that come up previous. But man, this would be a good one to do if she did. Carrie: Yeah, it's interesting. Like I wonder how they decide what, which ones are gonna be series and which ones aren't. Michael: I know like this whole, like the whole kingdom, like you got the Sun Empire, but is it Therandic Empire? It's also what they call, I guess, the speech in this world or the language they use. And Quanbao and they got the guildknights and how that whole, I guess more of the political aspect. I, you know. I'm kind interested in that since I, you know, I love Song of Ice and Fire. [00:13:00] That's largely what the story's about. Carrie: Oh, okay. Jacqueline: Did you feel like it ended, like everything was wrapped up? Or do you feel like that there's more to come? Michael: It was pretty wrapped up, but yeah. If she ever wanted to expand it, I know I've, I think I've seen where like people have written novellas or short stories and then eventually turned them into another story or take this world and make a whole new story with other characters set in that world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which would be cool. Jacqueline: Sounds good. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I, I enjoyed it. Got that romantasy element in there. It's not full on like Fourth Wing romance, but it's very sweet. Carrie: So, more sweet than spicy. Michael: Yeah. Maybe a hint of spice in there, but not much. Carrie: Okay. Good to know. Michael: Yeah. [Laughs][00:14:00] Carrie: So I read when Women Were Dragons by Kelly Barnhill. It's a historical fantasy that takes place in small town Wisconsin in the 1950s and 1960s. Narrator Alex Green is four years old when she first witnesses a woman, her elderly neighbor, turn into a dragon. She's also four years old when she learns "to be silent about dragons. Perhaps this is how we learn silence, an absence of words, an absence of context, a hole in the universe where the truth should be." The adults in Alex's life are similarly silent about what's going on in her household. Her mother is gone without any explanation. [00:15:00] Alex's Aunt Marla, a mechanic and former pilot who served in the World War II-era Women's Army Corps and the Women Air Force Service pilots steps in to care for her. When Alex's mother eventually returns, she's frail and pale, her scalp showing through her thin hair. Several years later, Alex's Aunt Marla transforms in the Mass Dragoning of 1955, an event where over 640,000 women suddenly turn into dragons. The dragons burn homes and workplaces. Some women, like Marla, even kill their husbands when they dragon. Their mass departures traumatize families like Alex's. Marla leaves behind her baby daughter Beatrice, whom Alex's parents adopt. They tell Alex that Beatrice is her sister, that she never had an aunt. Dragoning is a [00:16:00] forbidden, shameful topic, and Alex is unable to mourn her beloved aunt. When Alex is in high school, her mother dies of cancer. Shortly after, her father installs her and Beatrice in a tiny apartment to fend for themselves while he marries his secretary. He pays their bills and has groceries delivered, but Alex must raise Beatrice and get her to school, all while trying to get an education herself. She wants to go to college and become a scientist, and she's taking college courses by correspondence alongside her high school classes. Alex is filled with rage: at the loss of her mother and aunt, at her father's treatment of her and Beatrice, at a society that doesn't value her intellect. She's also terrified that Beatrice, who is obsessed with dragons, will transform and leave Alex behind. Interspersed with Alex's first person narration is a [00:17:00] pseudo-academic text on the history of dragons written by a medical doctor and scientist, Dr. Henry Gantz. Though brief, these chapters can drag a bit and sometimes seem repetitive, but they also fill in some of the narrative gaps. We learn about dragonings throughout history, and we learn what science has and hasn't learned about them. Eventually, we learn that women transform not just out of rage, but out of joy, even ecstasy. While the book's subject is serious, it's often quite satirical and funny. After the Mass Dragoning of 1955, for example, some of the dragons still carry on with their housework, which "was difficult due to their increased size and razor sharp talons and the fact that they emitted flames every time they hiccuped or burped." When the dragons begin to return to town in the 1960s, they carry purses and knitting with them. [00:18:00] There are protests in Madison, Wisconsin, in support of dragon rights, and the language of the protest signs mimics the language of feminist and civil rights protests. "My body, my choice," they say, and "our lives are bigger than you think." The author even pokes fun of a certain type of self-satisfied farmer's market customer "who went out of their way to buy bread, specifically from the dragon bakers, and then would speak loudly of how proud they were to be doing business with dragons. And wasn't it just terrible that some people couldn't see past their own prejudice." Overall, I found the dragon to be a rewarding and even inspiring metaphor for the injustices women and other marginalized groups have faced throughout history. I also appreciated the author's exploration of new ways of communal living and [00:19:00] chosen families made up of both humans and dragons. Though this novel has elements of fantasy, it's grounded in enough reality that I think it would appeal to historical fiction fans. Enjoy When Women Were Dragons with grilled cheese made with sourdough bread from your favorite local bakery or farmer's market vendor, whether dragon or human. Personally, I want to give the Ultimate Vegan Grilled Cheese, a recipe from Naturallie Plant Based, a try. This recipe calls for sourdough, vegan cheddar, spinach, and homemade sun dried tomato pesto. We'll link to the recipe on our blog. Michael: So when these women turn into dragons, were they like full-sized dragons? Carrie: Yeah, yeah. Full-sized dragons. But then they're like in their kitchen trying to tie their tiny aprons around them with their like tiny, tiny dinosaur dragon arms. [Laughter] [00:20:00] So, yeah, even though it was a serious topic, that kind of humor really kind of leveled it out a little bit. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Carrie: I had just finished listening, before I started reading this one, to Lessons in Chemistry, which also is about a woman scientist, and it takes place in the same time period of 1950s, early 1960s. And it was just, I know that was a really popular book. I just really didn't like it that much. Like, it was just like, oh my gosh, if I have to hear one more terrible thing that happened to this woman or these women. And so when I realized this was the same time period and it was about, you know, women who wanted to be scientists, I was like, oh no. But you know that dragon lens just really helped, I think, to make it not feel like a chore [laughs] Michael: Yeah. [00:21:00] Yeah. Carrie: when I was reading it. Jacqueline: I think it's interesting that it's set in the fifties and sixties, because that does seem when they tried to, had this whole narrative that women needed to stay home and cook and be housewives because a lot of women in the 1930s and twenties, they worked, they were scientists and Carrie: well, and in the forties, you know, the aunt here was a pilot in World War II and in the Women's Corps, and then suddenly she's not allowed to do that. Jacqueline: Yeah. It's weird that I don't even know, I don't somewhat understand why all these women were kind of pushed out of the workforce. But that book really brings it home to me. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think it would be like, you know, the main character is like, it's kind of a coming of age story as well. So I think it would be, you know, a good adult books for young adults kind of read as well. Jacqueline: Yeah, I think so too.[00:22:00] The book I chose to read for this month's prompt books with dragons is The Last Dragon on Mars by Scott Reintgen. This middle grade novel is the first book in the Dragonships series set--where else?--on Mars. The author creates a mystical world steeped in Martian history. In this universe, astronauts venture into space and discover that it's full of dragons. Every planet, moon and star has a dragon intertwined with this existence. Humanity learns that the Earth dragon loved humans so much that she sacrificed herself so Earth could become a habitat for mankind. As Earth became less habitable, humans look to Mars as a possible solution, hoping its dragon would also sacrifice itself for humanity. When the Martian dragon refuses, a war [00:23:00] ensues. Mankind wins and defeats the dragon. But the dying dragon curses humanity. The result? They killed the planet's dragon for nothing. Every animal, plant, even the planet itself, turns itself against humans. Generations suffer storms, diseased crops, and deadly creatures. Mars becomes an uninhabitable world. After three generations, humans begin leaving Mars. The main character, Lunar Jones lives at a relocation clinic with other orphans. Resources are scarce on Mars and even scarcer at the clinic. Older children like 13-year-old Lunar must scavenge for food and supplies to keep the younger children fed. As others leave, Lunar and the orphans have no way off the planet. Barely surviving, Lunar braves dangerous storms and other scavengers to retrieve technology, spacesuits or anything he can sell for food. Something goes wrong and Lunar is thrust into an underground world with an unknown dragon. [00:24:00] The people there call themselves Dread Knights, and they will do anything to protect their secret dragon. They plan to dust him, in other words, kill him and his crew. However, the dragon named Dread has other ideas. This incredible world will captivate any young reader who loves dragons. Most characters, both animals and children, are innocent and trying to do the right thing. Dread is a young dragon who still has hope for Mars. He chooses Lunar to help him fight for the planet. The theme of hope and innocence is strong, perhaps a bit heavy handed, but in today's world, we can all use a little fantasy and hope for a kinder world. This novel is for readers who are looking for an action-packed space adventure with dragons. And I found a recipe for a dragon flame meringue cookie at wonderlandrecipes.com. Carrie: You wanna tell us a little more about that recipe? Jacqueline: Oh, it's like, it's red and it looks like, the meringue is dropped to look [00:25:00] like flames. And so it's basically meringue cookies. Have you ever Michael: mm-hmm. Yeah. Jacqueline: And they're like orange, so it looks like fire. Yeah. If you like meringue cookies. Michael: Yeah, I like meringue cookies. Jacqueline: Yeah, we used to have them at Christmas time. Michael: Yep. Jacqueline: And stuff. Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Carrie: I don't know that I've ever had, I mean, I've had meringue. I don't know that I've ever had a meringue cookie. Jacqueline: Here's your chance to have a fiery meringue cookie. [Laughter] Yeah. This author is also, he had the pretty popular series Nyxia that, you might be thinking of that Michael, when you mentioned earlier. Michael: Yes, I read that one years ago, the first one, that series. And really liked it. Really enjoyed it. I mean, dragons in space. I mean, I don't see how you can go wrong with this book. Jacqueline: I mean, who would've thought. I wouldn't. I mean, that's his, who he thought of this. Like, and plus at first I was a little confused. So each, like the moon has its own [00:26:00] dragon that lives there and you know, the stars have their own dragon. So it's a lot of world building going on there. Michael: Is this a new series? Or is it kind of a little older? Jacqueline: It's, it's pretty new. Michael: Okay. How many books are in the series so far? Do you know? Jacqueline: I think there might, I think he's putting them out pretty quickly. Michael: Okay. Jacqueline: So, I don't know for sure. I think there might be three already. Michael: Three. Okay. I think Nyxia was what, three? Three Jacqueline: Trilogy Michael: in series. I remember that first book. That's quite the plot twist at the end of the first one. Jacqueline: But who would've thought dragons in outer space? Right? I mean, Michael: I know. Like peanut butter and jelly. Carrie: You know, the dragons in the book that I read because they kind of, you know, are sort of banished from or realized they can't really, you know, they can't fit in that kitchen anymore. So they're, they kind of leave, but yeah, some of them do go to outer space in that novel too. Jacqueline: Oh, they do? [00:27:00] Oh, okay. Michael: Game theory! [All laugh] Jacqueline: It was a new one on me and it took me a minute to wrap myself around the story too, because the dragons also fuel their spaceships somehow and or a part of the ship. And that one I'm still trying to visualize that a little bit. Carrie: Yeah. This one doesn't like go into the detail, it's just like that's one of the places where they are is out in space. Jacqueline: Yeah. I didn't wanna give too much away, but I think, you know, people that like Aragon and some of those other dragon books will probably be all about this. Michael: Is this for like middle grade or maybe older teens? Jacqueline: I think it's a little bit more middle grade than older teen, is what, it was defined as middle grade YA. Which I was like, well wait a minute, but, so maybe like Michael: younger teens? Jacqueline: Seventh, eighth graders, maybe. Something like that. Ninth grade. Michael: Okay. Not a lot of death and blood and guts.[00:28:00] Jacqueline: There's a lot of fighting. Yeah. A lot of fighting. And there's a war and there's a lot of, well, you know, they killed that dragon, so the dragons are fighting too. Like, they don't necessarily always get, there's a lot of jealousy between the dragons and they don't always get along. And you get to meet more dragons. Dread, here is a young dragon that's 'cause he's young. But then you, you also get to re-meet Jupiter and then, some of the other dragons from the stars, but of course the planet dragons are the most powerful. Carrie: Of course. [Laughter] Jacqueline: Yeah. Michael: Is it gonna set it up for a big clash? Jacqueline: Yeah. Yeah. There's more to come. There's some fighting and some wars and little betrayal going on. Michael: Ooh, sounds Game of Thrones, but in space. Jacqueline: Yeah. Lots of action and dragon riding. Carrie: And you know, we were commenting the book is really [00:29:00] beautiful. It has these red edges that look like dragon scales and this dragon eye, red dragon eye looking out at you. Michael: Yeah. He went all out for that artwork and packaging. Jacqueline: Yeah. Carrie: Or his publisher did. [All laugh] Jacqueline: Hey, covers sometimes help when you're looking at a book. Carrie: They do. Jacqueline: And you see a great looking cover, you know? Carrie: Thanks for listening to the Books and Bites podcast. Our theme music is The Breakers from the album In Close Quarters with the Enemy by Scott Whiddon. You can learn more about Scott and his music at his website, adoorforadesk.com.