[00:00:00] Dan: What does the data say is the best way to lead a team through economic uncertainty? The kind that make the team feel their destiny is not in their hands. This is the question that came in from longtime listener and friend of the show, Jamie in Florida. Well, in this episode, pier and Dan will explore this salient question while looking back on a year of we not ME episodes, and looking ahead to give us much insight as possible for teams in 2026 a year in which, let's face it, that uncertainty is unlikely to diminish. 

[00:00:38] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:45] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:47] Dan: And the top of the season to you, Pierre. Uh, this is, this is our festive episode, um, and the second of our q and as.

[00:00:55] Pia: And sort of, I've had that really weird experience where I feel I've only just put the Christmas decorations away and then they're back out again. I, this year has, has been double speed. 

[00:01:05] Dan: I think looking at society and the world and a year of upheaval, hasn't it? It's, um,

[00:01:12] Pia: It is

[00:01:12] Dan: remember back in the day we used talk about vuca, you know, volatile, uncertain,

[00:01:19] Pia: complex,

[00:01:19] Dan: complex. Thank you. We're talking about complexity today actually, and ambiguous and, you know, sort of.

[00:01:25] Dan: The, that work by BCG, I think it was showing that the, that the oscillations of, you know, the sort of complexity was as periods of complexity getting bigger and closer together. And I feel like that is just, that's just totally come true. And, uh, if you think about, uh, you know, Trump in the White House, ai, you know, we had Musk saluting on stage this year.

[00:01:48] Dan: Do you know what I mean? It's sort of gone, uh, only a small example, but absolute madness in the

[00:01:52] Dan: world. 

[00:01:53] Pia: And we now don't just have one word for vuca. We have three tuna and Barney.

[00:01:58] Dan: Barney. That's right, that's right. All trying to sort of re give them 

[00:02:03] Pia: saying the same thing,

[00:02:04] Dan: So in the hope that it might help us to solve the problem. And actually it's a perfect, perfect segue. I think you are right here as you get your Christmas decades out again. Um, reflecting on that to that Kelsey, because we do have a question from a long time listener and friend of the show, Jamie in the US and, um, his question really just, just. Sort of lands exactly on this, um, on this point, really.

[00:02:31] Dan: So his question is, What does the data say is the best way to lead a team through economic uncertainty? The kind that makes them feel their destiny is not in their hands. And he says this from a sales leader perspective, but I think this actually applies really broadly.

[00:02:45] Dan: He then talks about how do you get the balance between a number of factors, you know, for example, urgency and compassion, realism and optimism. focus on the work slash maybe you need to cultivate your network. Do you be, are you open and honest or don't wanna deflate people? All of these. Yeah. The optimism and not being Pollyanna-ish.

[00:03:04] Dan: Uh, and finally satisfying team demands versus managing up. Yeah. Interesting. Isn't it? It's sort of, you've got a lot of tensions there, but I think if we think about this uncertainty thing, it's the C that I forgot in vuca, um, of complexity. Um, this is where we're at, isn't it? So I think if we look to 2026.

[00:03:22] Dan: This little episode is just, we hope will really help you to think about how to lead in what will undoubtedly be even more complex times where that, where you are not, you don't feel like your destiny is in your hands.

[00:03:36] Pia: and probably the first stage is sort of the mindset, which is to actually befriend uncertainty. And, and not to resist it because, um, that's probably the, the environment we're all going to be in for a period of time. so. That's not necessarily within your control, but what you can influence are the conditions that you can create for yourself and your team.

[00:04:05] Pia: So you can't, can't control company destiny or um, socioeconomic factors or geopolitical stability. Can't do that. But, but you can influence that, that. Um, environment, the conditions that your team, that you lead works in.

[00:04:28] Dan: Absolutely. I think that's it. Start with B, isn't it? Sort of. I think as, I think it's a great one. If you're fighting complexity or you know all the time, then you, you are going to lose that battle. So really just accept it. So start with B and I think as you just said, the next one is we, you know, how do you go from me to we, I think.

[00:04:47] Dan: You know, this is a, this is a team sport and um, a little story from a team that I was coaching recently in a pharma company. They're an asset team. Um, they have a molecule that will ultimately, we hope, cure some cancers. Um, and they've got an immense uncertainty. This is very early stage thing. They don't know what it's gonna impact.

[00:05:09] Dan: They've got loads of different tumors they could target, and what they're really working on is. And what they said, actually, the one, the team, one of the team leaders said, we, we are gonna need to move very quickly here. You know, we've got, and, and of course when you move, you have to bring everyone with you.

[00:05:25] Dan: So bringing the, bring a tight team together, really work on that, um, is, is sort of the crucial thing, so that when you do move, you actually move together and it doesn't, you're not fragmenting all the time as that, as things change.

[00:05:38] Pia: And I think, um, one of the other key bits which we've picked up. From Squadify over this year is the clarity of whether you are a team at all or a Tino. So I think, so. A next stage for me is, you know, when you get your mindset, what, what, what can I influence? What in terms of my team? Then I've really gotta think, have I got a group of individuals or have I got a team?

[00:06:03] Pia: And if you've got a group of individuals when they're uncertain, that's gonna create a lot of either. Friction or fragmentation. So really thinking how do I get this team to link arms and see the collective goal that they're working towards and what they can achieve. And I think what we found was that the teams that that scored the lowest on team forming, so they were in there.

[00:06:32] Pia: Bottom quartile for team for me, the way that they were able to get themselves and improve their scores was focusing on a clear plan. Looking at the processes that the team met and shared information, how they had their meetings, um, and then really clear measures of success. So everybody's really focused on the specific things collectively that you're working towards, and that narrows the focus and that starts to bring more cohesiveness in the team.

[00:07:08] Pia: Um, and that also. Creates a sense of camaraderie, team spirit, which you know is the old dunk Kirk spirit

[00:07:15] Pia: in in the face of uncertainty. Then you, you feel like your, your confidence is boyed by being a collective, not, not feeling like

[00:07:25] Pia: it's all done to you on your own. 

[00:07:28] Dan: Yeah. And people are feeling under a lot of pressure, just that, you know, the precarity caused by the out the outside situation. So bringing people together gives them, you know, yeah, I say the camaraderie, the, the sort of connection, the mutual support.

[00:07:43] Dan: Um, but as you say, starting with clarity is the key thing. And it's, and rather than being a, a team in name only, you actually start. That first condition of how do you bring clarity, as you said, working on those things will turn you into a team. Conversely, the temptation is, and actually the, receive wisdom, in fact, uh, on this.

[00:08:02] Dan: And as it's received wisdom, what AI will tell you, um, if you just ask chat GBT, is to focus on trust building, um, and communication and um, or even some skills. You know, um, yeah, let's, let's build coaching capability or give each other feedback. Those things are like islands. They're just a drift in space without clarity, you know, without that sort of uniting force, you know, why would I take time to give you feedback if we don't work on a team together or if I feel tightly connected with you in the same endeavor?

[00:08:35] Dan: So I think that's the, the not to do thing. Because I've seen so many, we've both seen so many teams spend the time sort of trust building. Um, but actually few months later, they're exactly back where they were. And just because they haven't done the work on clarity. 

[00:08:51] Pia: And I think that, There's no disrespect to Lencioni's five dysfunctions. It's that we believe there's a six dysfunction, and that is a lack of clarity. And, and that's a, a sign of the times and how they've changed because a lots of people, who work with us come with teams who are looking to prove their trust, but that, is a symptom, not a cause.

[00:09:16] Pia: And that's, that's quite a different thing. So, uh, what. We find that when we work on the clarity, which is relatively simple, actually, it's not heart pouring on sort of doing it, it, it actually is quite a pragmatic exercise that gets people together to create that collective output. But the, but the outcome is that improves trust hugely and improves engagement, but.

[00:09:44] Pia: Engagement will not necessarily improve clarity or 

[00:09:47] Dan: No, that's right. Absolutely. And we've seen working, focusing with, without the teams we're working with on Clarity has delivered double digit improvements in trust and engagement and so on. In fact, high, you know, it's in some cases really high double digit. Um, and, um, so yeah, but that's definitely the way around.

[00:10:06] Dan: That's definitely the way around. I think some of our episodes this year have, um, have sort of touched on these things, um, as well. And I, I'd recommend to, to the readers to. To listener to go back and, um, have a listen to some because we've, we've, uh, we've, we've covered quite a few, um, elements here of, of clarity as we've gone through.

[00:10:24] Dan: And I think, uh, we've done quite a bit also on hybrid working, the science of that. And, and of course that's even, that's, that can present additional challenges in building clarity, but it means you've got to really as a leader, choose your, um, you know. Choose your time, how are you going to spend it to bring people together?

[00:10:44] Dan: Um, but that's the, I think that's the first one. So, um, and if we drill down into some really exciting research, we did this, this year, um, Juliet, who some people will know, and her new friend, uh, Chad, GBT, who is an amazing statistician. Um. Did some work on clarity and we investigated, is there a threshold condition? Is there something that is a sort of trigger for high performance to boil all this down? And we discovered one, didn't we, Pierre?

[00:11:12] Pia: We did. So, um, one of the questions, uh, there are 40 of them and one of them has. A really high correlation with performance and there is a threshold where the score in terms of presence out of five reaches a certain point and then that, um, has a huge impact on driving up. Performance.

[00:11:39] Pia: Now we only tell the teams that get to that threshold what it actually is, because we all know that the, the effect of bias. And, and once you know what the number is, you're gonna be, you're gonna be wanting to. You're gonna be wanting to make sure that your scores get close to it or feeling bad that it doesn't, but it's really useful to be able to see it. So we've had it both had it as a hunch for a while working with teams, but it was great to get the, the specifics, the, the science behind it of what, what, what.

[00:12:10] Pia: What score and, and how you need to, to be able to work together and understand. So the question is understanding how to work together, which looks so simple, but the understanding means that you've got real deep understanding. That's not just telling, that's not just information that's, uh, that, that's work that's, that's had to be active working on to make that happen.

[00:12:37] Pia: And then how is. Not a theoretical or what we're gonna do, it's what we are actually doing. And then the together bit is, I love it, is like, yeah, let's just reiterate that it is how we do it together. And that is an iterative process that might require quite a lot of reviewing and feedback and adjustments, um, to, to get the engine working. Properly inside a team, but, but it's absolutely crucial that drives performance.

[00:13:08] Dan: It's been such a huge learning. The great thing as well is, this goes back to the real basics, which we find time again. What is a team? A team is a, you know, is more than one person that has a sh. Shared goal and high levels of interdependency.

[00:13:24] Dan: So we've talked about the shared goal, the clarity, and part of, in fact, in our words, part of that. But this particular thing about interdependency is actually we know how to work together to get that done. It comes back to the real basics and the science coming outta Squadify is showing that that's there. So I think they're the other, they're the other things to work on.

[00:13:42] Dan: I think the other thing we wanted to just talk about and answer to Jamie's question was, um, And you touched on it as you, as you were talking about, that that threshold condition is about, particularly in the age of ai, double down on humanity.

[00:13:57] Dan: We've done a lot of episodes this, this year on how do we lead in times and run teams in times of, of, um, of ai and. There's a, there's a danger that we, um, you know, we, we let our humanity go. I think that's the other thing I would say as a, as an answer to Jamie's question, is just really connect with other people.

[00:14:18] Dan: So even in, when you think about clarity, think about a conversation. There's information and understanding there's two way clarity

[00:14:26] Dan: happening there. You know, as, as you say, when you are. Working well, how to work together. That's not an email to say, let's have a meeting once a week to do so. And so that is a conversation.

[00:14:36] Dan: And in those conversations, you know, what can't AI do in that conversation? It can't empathize, it can't deeply understand what their needs are. It, do you know what I mean? So do all those things in a way. The, um, so yeah, doubling down on humanity. Connecting and connecting and connecting is the, is the other piece to this.

[00:14:55] Dan: So these aren't, there's a temptation to sort of. Sometimes fly by wire. We're so busy a conversation takes too long. And, and actually no, don't just resist that urge and, you know, talk to people, pick up the phone, however tricky it is in this virtual environment. Get those conversations happening and make them real and go as deep as possible.

[00:15:15] Pia: And that's what I, um, have really loved this year. I've been, you know, lucky to facilitate a lot of. Debriefs with Squadify and to see how the data, um, opens up the conversation. So it really helps people to be able to identify through a number what their lived experience is. It sort of helps them to put it into words, and then by doing that, that helps everyone understand what's happening.

[00:15:43] Pia: And then that builds the motivation to go, well, what are we going to do about it? And, and that. I've seen that time, time and again. Um, and that's, that is the humanity, like, okay, we're I using this as a AI platform? It's telling us the things we've all input as humans, but let's, let's us talk about it to really start to initiate some ideas and better understanding.

[00:16:10] Dan: Yeah, it's phenomenal, isn't it, to see that happening, that cohesion occur happening. And, the opposite I think, can happen in teams where we think that a group conversation, our old, uh, friend, uh, Andy Chavis used to call this a plastic bag conversation. It's like a carrier bag being wafted around in a breeze, in a, in an alley. And you're just talking like that. It's weirdly. Really separating in the team. It doesn't, you know, we talk in a group, but actually cohering around the data and letting the data facilitate that conversation brings people together.

[00:16:41] Dan: Um, so, I think it just remains for us to say, Pia, that the first episode of next year, um, will be just the perfect start to the year, I think. And, and it will touch on these things. It's with John Whittle, um, who is formally, he's just, he's, he's between jobs at the moment and he's just left the, uh, left data 61, which was, he's basically running Australia's AI strategy.

[00:17:07] Dan: but he has been working. In, he did his PhD 30 years ago in ai, so he knows his onions. Um, he's a fantastic human and he has this, um, brilliant view on how to maintain that humanity, see the benefits of AI, and also maintain the humanity, in these times. So, um, that's strongly recommended. It's out in, uh, sort of late January and uh, I think that'll give us all a good start to the year.

[00:17:32] Pia: Perfect. Yeah, it was a great conversation and, a very smart man who's doing a lot of thinking, so,

[00:17:37] Dan: He really is. Yeah, it's great. And it comes out in such a pragmatic way. So that was a delight to record. And, um, I think, uh, I think it's a, it's a really important, a important episode actually. Um, so there we are. Um, start with the B, Then go from me to we. There's a lot of rhyming going on there. And actually that means filming a team, which has these two elements of clarity.

[00:17:58] Dan: particularly around the sort of how we work toge and then, sorry, the independence about how we work together. but all of this is built on this sort of. Basis of really making sure we have human contact through this and resist the temptation to use automations and efficiency to overcome that sense of connecting as human beings.

[00:18:19] Dan: So, um, Jamie and everyone, we hope that's useful, um, and we wish you well for 2026. If you've got any more questions for us, chuck them in. We'll be doing these q and a episodes through the new year. 

[00:18:30] Pia: Dan, where do people send their questions to? 

[00:18:33] Dan: good question. Um, we not meet pod@gmail.com.

[00:18:36] Pia: Okay, great. And any question? So we're, we're not, it doesn't have to be highfaluting. Um, it could be pragmatic, it could be about how the team runs. It could be challenges that you've had. It could be challenges with your leader. Uh, you know, specific things that you've come across, the type of team that you are, go for it. 

[00:18:55] Dan: Absolutely. And this was about com leading complexity, which is quite a big topic. Thank you, Jamie. but yeah, as you say, pier could be really detailed and we'll dive into the data for you, and come back with an answer. So please do send that to we not me, pod@gmail.com.

[00:19:10] Dan: But that is it for this episode. And this year, win, not Me, is supported by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening and at squadify.net. And if you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. Win Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:19:31] Pia: And it's goodbye and have a wonderful end of the year and festive season from me.