Zoe: Welcome to the Autism and Theology podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Zoe and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage in the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways that faith and non faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish. Today is our January Cat Chat episode and I'm joined by Krisha and Ian. Also, if you would like to access the transcript for this episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. So today we're discussing a question that was sent in by one of our listeners around the topic of generalisation. I thought I'd start by reading the whole question out so that all of us can get a little bit of an idea of what they were really asking about this. So the person said, I'm mindful of the difficulties with generalisation. As teachers of autistic pupils, we know that this is an area that needs support, i. e. when a youngster learns a skill in one environment, we can't assume they will be able to carry out that same skill or with equal success, sometimes even if sitting in a different chair in the classroom in another environment. In all the books I've read and lectures heard, I haven't read or heard of disability theologians talking about generalisation yet. I wondered if you can bring it up on the podcast, it's a huge issue. For example, how do we help parishioners who might not know they have difficulties with generalisation, take what they have learned and experienced in church out into the world during the following week? Does more need to be done to ease the guilt that can come with difficulties in this area? How do we help our youngsters, who are the ones who are often needing to shift environments and church during the service, with generalisation? Because generalisation is not talked about, practical solutions are not put in place. In my church, the youngsters go out, go out of the nave and into the church hall for Sunday school. Then the group returns to share what they have learned with the congregation, and using microphones, which is an experience they embrace with different degrees, with different degrees of enthusiasm. I have noticed that the little girl who has a diagnosis of autism and ADHS has stopped coming. I wonder if generalisation difficulties are part of the issue. We're having a series of talks on inclusion in the church, and I hope this will be a good time to bring this up. But of course there will be people who think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. So that was the question from our listener. Ian, you mentioned you had a lot of thoughts on this. Do you want to kick us off with sharing those? Ian: Sure, I, so I have, I have, I want to divide this up into three different sort of presenting issues, right? And I don't, I don't have to talk about all three and totally monopolize everything, but I, but there are three different things that I think need to be separated out. And I'm going to go in sort of backwards order here. Um, to start with and start with the last thing talked about, which is the, um, people going out to Sunday school outside the nave and then coming back in and sharing what they've learned. Right? And I'm, I want to say all this as gently as I can. I'm not finger pointing. I think that a lot of people do things that are. Less than ideal with the best of intentions, and I'm sure that that is the case here. But one of my bedrock rock solid principles for parish ministry is I am never going to ask someone to do something That I wouldn't do myself, right? And if I had just learned a concept that day, and was asked to speak about it in front of my congregation, you would never see me again, right? I would be so 100 percent gone. I would, I would never show my face in there again. And I mean it's, it's, it's You know, we think about this sometimes in terms of, you know, there are, there are congregations that ask newcomers to stand up and introduce themselves. And that's even scripted. That's even like clear boundary. Like, you know, exactly what's expected of you. But it's still for some people. It's so awkward. And so put so off putting that it that it makes them never want to come again. But you're talking about kids who are learning something for the first time and then ask To essentially teach it and especially for. Autistic people who have trauma around communication, who have been told regularly that what they do is wrong, or what they communicate is wrong, or they haven't quite grasped it, or that sort of thing, this is just putting them in an incredibly difficult situation. Um, it's just a really, really difficult situation to be put in. And I just wanna, I just wanna highlight, if we did the same for grown adults, this They would be mortified, right? And I say this, I say this I don't think I'm speaking out of turn. If I did this to my parishioners, if I had a, an adult education class that took place before the service or, or mid service, and then I quizzed them on it publicly afterwards, I would never again have, have adults showing up to that. Because they don't want to be put in that situation, right? Um, but somehow we, we sort of forget when it comes to kids that, that those principles apply, I think, um, and so, for me, that's, uh, and again, I don't want to impugn anyone's motives. I'm not saying anyone involved is, is a bad person or anything like that, but to me, that's, that is one major issue that I think. My goodness, even me as an adult, I would, I would just, I would disappear. I would, I would change my name. Right? Um, so that's one. Um, I can leave it there if you, if you all have thoughts on that and, and come back. Zoe: I think that's a fantastic point Ian, and just, I'm thinking about this like more broadly, I know this is specifically, um, she mentions a child who's autistic and has ADHD, but I think more broadly for any neurodivergent, slightly anxious, even like shy child, like not everyone wants to stand up in front of a microphone. And it's such an interesting one because like, As there are with adults, there probably will be kids who absolutely thrive off of getting to stand up in, like, the big church with a microphone. But yeah, it's that, like, we can't expect all kids to just, you know, Kind of perform for us, if we wouldn't expect that from adults and yeah, it's a fantastic point like the issue is probably broader to start off with as well, which is something to think about. Krysia: I was going to say my thought when I first read that question was, yes, that possibly is a barrier, that would be a barrier for me. Um, I think also the barriers autistic people face in church are really multiple and quite complex and some of the conversations we're having on the podcast, some of the writing and thinking that's going on at the moment is starting to untangle how interconnected a lot of them are. Um, I guess some of the thoughts I had are, if we're looking at people having an issue with generalizing, perhaps we're looking, We don't, what we don't want to do is take away the value that autistic neurodivergent brains have within the church, and maybe looking at how autistic and ADHD brains in particular here, because I think they're the two that seem to be quite prominent within . This question and perhaps this conversation, how to make kind of Sunday school work. And I think certainly what Ian said around kind of putting people on the pulpit. I mean, I wouldn't have done that as a child. Um, I used to basically when I. I went to the church my parents went to, I would not talk to anyone. And if I was tasked to get up and talk, to introduce myself to people, I would not go back. I would need to kind of get to know people on a one to one. So when I used to live in Germany, I used to teach English in Berlin about 10 years ago. One thing about the church I went to over there, which I found really, really good, was that they used home groups and small groups quite a bit. So I got to know a few people within a smaller environment that then I got to know on a Sunday when we all went together, rather than all the big introductions happening in the big church. It was a lot of the kind of interactions and relationships were done in the microcosm, which I think worked really well, but certainly there was none of presenting anything back to the big church. group, um, which I think had that happened, I just would have bolted to be never seen again. Zoe: Yeah, and just a thought I'm having off the back of that, Krysia, like what you're saying, um, and I might not be fully accurate about this, this is just a thought, um, so much of what we find in neurodiversity research is that mental health challenges are so tied up with functioning as well. And I just wonder as well, if there's like anxiety surrounding these things, there's potential that that could be impacting generalization as well. And then in safer spaces, so like dyslexic people, for example, will often have less issues with reading the Bible in a smaller group if it's a safe space. And I'm just thinking like, that could also be tying into this generalisation thing. Krysia: I think it is. I'm wondering how much of this is some of the expectations we have within churches, and we found that within some of the conversations we've had, um, sometimes they are um, really wrapped up with kind of doing things the way that everyone else does, or kind of following what neurotypical people might do, but without necessarily realising it. I think certainly my experience within the university system and within churches, there's a lot of things we do subconsciously without realising it. We are embodying normativity through what we do. And that ultimately causes barriers to people and I'm wondering if some of that there is some of what we're saying is because we're having neurotypical expectations on neurodivergent people. Perhaps, I don't know, it's a question almost in itself that I have that maybe we need to untangle a bit more. Ian: I think, um, the, this gets, you know, some of the, what you have said, Krisha, it gets back to the, the sort of other two related issues for me in this question, which is the issue of generalization and then the, the sort of, um, almost an aside about guilt around generalization that might, might be built up and the others. What I want to say about this is, I, I, I do not think that when it comes to faith and application of faith, that generalization is a neurodivergent, is a unique or uniquely neurodivergent issue. The biggest problem that we see in the church, or the biggest issue, Issue that people seem to have in the church is how to connect their Sunday morning faith with the rest of their everyday life, right? This is why Every church that's ever looking for a new minister says they want relevant sermons that connect to everyday life You know, like these are these are things that everybody's looking for so to me I think that generalization is an issue for everyone That, that part of the difficulty is that we hear these stories and we don't really know how to interpret them or how to apply them. And I think that's almost a universal problem. So I think that this is a fundamental issue where part of what we need to do when studying scripture and studying theology is say, how, what, what difference does it make? Right? Um, but the guilt around generalization or around not being able to generalize really, uh, evoked something in me, which is when it comes to generalization, one of the gifts that I think autistic people have for the church is that in some ways we might be actually very good at generalizing from scriptural concepts. And I'll tell you what I mean. When we read passages as a general rule, like Matthew 25, where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, and the defining factor is how you treated the marginalized, and how you treated the people who are, who are, um, deemed insignificant in society, right? And Jesus says, just as you did it to the least of these, you did it to me. For me, as an autistic person, I take that very literally, and I'm not trying to emphasize ideas that autistic people are extremely literal minded, but for me, that's, that's pretty clear, right? He says exactly what he means, I think. I, a, I think a neurotypical tendency is to read passages like that and not generalize them. Right. And say this was spoken to a context. I don't really need to take this to heart as much. Um, and so, you know, when Jesus tells the rich man, um, to sell all his possessions because it's easier for a, for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Our tendency in the church, which is, which is. A more neurotypical church is to say, Well, Jesus doesn't really mean that. And here's why. And here's the ways that doesn't actually apply to us here today. And I think the if there is an autistic reading of scripture, the autistic reading of scripture says, What if that does apply to us? Right? And I think that's a pretty important word for us to hear that maybe We shouldn't be explaining this stuff away. Maybe that it, maybe it really does apply to us too. Um, and so to me, you know, issues with generalization, I, I, I, I understand that concept from the literature, but I think sometimes, you know, From a neurotypical perspective, the issue isn't that autistic people don't generalize, it's that they don't quote unquote generalize the right way, right? So they're, they're trying to apply this in places where we have deemed it doesn't fit. And part of the Christian message is, what if it does fit? Right. What if it does apply here? Shouldn't we be a little bit unsettled that maybe we're doing the wrong thing and we don't want to hear that. Right. So we tend to shut that down. And I, I just wonder if that's part of what, what can happen with autistics in particular reading scripture as a, as a sort of generalization issue. Zoe: Yeah, that's so helpful, Ian, and yeah, so many things to think through and really helpful and I just wonder as well, like, coming back to that question and what you're saying about, um, how often autistic people are good with generalisation, just not in the ways that your typical people would maybe value or expect. And it is such, like, maybe the starting point as well is just looking at who is in that Sunday school and what are the people who are maybe different being encouraged in the same ways as other people? You know, like one of my pet hates is like reward systems in Sunday school and memory versus your child gets a pencil or a sweetie and actually what happens when the child is neurodivergent or and that makes their memory work differently or they just don't have a great short term memory um and these things it's like rewarding children for being neurotypical um which is something that I really struggle with and I just wonder if it's like Again, like, we're thinking about this in broader ways, like, is it maybe more a pattern of, like, the child leaving church? Is it more as well than just being taught to stand up? Is there a general feeling of, I am not the way I'm expected to be in this church. I don't want to come here anymore. Um, and yeah, just a lot of things to think through with that. Krysia: Yeah, I mean, certainly what came through from my research quite clearly was a lot of the autistic people I spoke to felt that they weren't a good enough Christian or weren't a good enough Muslim. So they then either left their faith, their faith changed, or they found different ways of doing things that fitted better with being autistic and often having multiple other neurodivergences also at the same time. So I think it does challenge us. To think about how we're doing what we're doing as well, and although, and also what skills, and not skills in terms of things you can do, but in terms of almost churchward gifts that people have, and how we value those gifts as well, and the spread of them as well, because I, like Zoe, have a similar aversion to, um, a reward system where if you do something, you get something in return, like a pencil or a sweetie. Um, Or raisins or something similar, rather than that to me is just very surface level regurgitation, which I can do really well, but doesn't necessarily foster an understanding of how things click and operate together. So it's all about performance. rather than understanding and relationships and communicating people in the way that works best for you really. Zoe: Yeah, and then that's where that idea of the good Christian emerges. It's something that comes up time, I'm sure it is in pretty much any theology research that involves people who are maybe slightly marginalised, but that idea of like the good Christian and I think that comes from these sort of like tick box, I can do that, I got the reward. And that's when we then get that idea of what a good Christian is, what a bad Christian is, and then everyone's set out to fail, and that is not the message of the Christian faith, which is really sad. Um, but yeah. Ian: Yeah. And so the, the last thing that, that occurs to me, and I'm not saying that this is what's going on here, but one of the things that I have noticed in a number of quote unquote autism friendly worship services that I've seen that are oriented towards children, is that There almost seems to be an emphasis on this, on worship as an extension of school, like working on skills, right? So sometimes it's like trying to get, you know, do, um, sensory type stuff to get kids, autistic kids used to different sensory textures, um, things like that. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but, but one of the dangers that we run into, If we set things up like that, is reinforcing the already pervasive message that what autistic children need more than anything else is to be different than they are, right? And to me, church should be the one place where that message is never given, at least for children, right? We have plenty of time to challenge people later on and to say, what miserable sinners we are, and how, how much work we all need, right? But when we're, when we're, when we're trying to raise children in the faith, the most important message to me is the mercy and the love of God, right? I don't know how we truly convey that message, that God loves you. Entirely and wholly and knowing you exactly as you are, if every moment that we're with someone, we're trying to make them different. We're trying to, to build them into something other than what they are. So this is, um, I'm sure there are plenty of Christian formation professionals and Christian educators who would disagree with me about this. But to me, if my kids leave Sunday school knowing only one thing, and that's that God loves them, that's a success, right? And anything else, Can potentially interfere with that. And that's what that's the message that I really want them receiving over and over again. And particularly for neurodivergent kids who do not get that message 90 percent of the time from the world. Right? I want church to be the one place where, where we say, you know what, everybody else out there can think what they want to think. But in here. God loves you, and God knows you and loves you exactly as you are. Krysia: I will just kind of emphasize absolute. That is the one thing that should be the main takeaway. And I know often, certainly in the churches I've been in, and the ones the church my parents go to, often it's volunteers running Sunday school. So it's a lot of people who are really putting time and so going over and above. Um, so in essence, it should be something. Simple, but obviously where we're relying on so many volunteers, or perhaps people who do multiple things as part of a job, you know, it's lots of people juggling lots of different things. Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. It like so well said, both of you. Um, and I think just before we close, I just want to come to that very last point. that where the person who's asked the question says that the church is having a series of talks on inclusion and, and the person who asked the question is worried that people will think she's making a mountain out of a molehill. And I just wanted to encourage you, um, encourage the person who wrote this in or anyone else that you're doing so much by really thinking about this and really reflecting on the practices in your church and. Given that the church is already having a talk on inclusion, that is such a good place to say, well, look at the practices, there's someone who's left this church, we're talking about inclusion here, it's clearly not a mountain out of a molehill, like, you have the evidence there to say some of the things we're doing, there's issues for autistic children and probably adults and other people in the way that we're doing things, um, but yeah, just want to really encourage that person and anyone else advocating, like, be bold with this, sometimes it can feel like we're, out on our own trying to advocate for people or ourselves and no one's listening. But that's where it's so important to just keep pushing it and be that annoying person. And one of my participants talked about just like embracing the fact that they're the annoying person in church that everyone rolls their eyes at because they're just constantly saying we need to do this differently. And he was like, I don't care if I'm that person who other people need me to be who don't have the confidence to push back on things, then I'll be that person. And yeah, just, yeah. I don't know if either of you have anything to add to that or. Krysia: I guess the only thing I'd have to have that is if you're doing this as a talk, have this conversation as part of it because you've got three neurodivergent people here. basically having some ideas that could be basically either useful, could be discussed in your church, useful, not useful. But I think always having stuff from lived experience is useful. Um, and we never know who has and hasn't got lived experience because being neurodivergent is not a diagnosis. It's almost like a political state of being divergent from the majority. Um, and not everybody who's neurodivergent knows that they are as well. Certainly from my experience, that's the case. So. If you did want to cover this as part of your inclusion series. go ahead, use the conversation we've just had and agree and disagree with us as much as you please. Ian: Yeah, the, um, the last thing I'll say just as a word of encouragement, Zoe, echoing sort of what you said, I've had the privilege of, uh, leading Bible studies recently around the prophets, right? And this is what the prophets do. Is they call out iniquity, they call out those, those injustices that they see, um, we are not good. I'll speak for my denomination. Episcopalians are not great about reading the prophets, right? We tend to avoid them because they make us uncomfortable. And that, I think, is some of the discomfort that you're seeing here, right? Is that I don't want to be the person who's always making a mountain out of a molehill or, or griping about something. But the reality is. We need the prophets, right? We need people to be willing to stand in the breach and say, what we're doing isn't right, right? And we need to do better, and here's why. Um, and it's not always a popular message, you know, prophets are not always popular people, um, but I think this is a prophetic task, if that framing is helpful in sort of encouraging the question asker, that this is, this is profoundly biblical. Right? It's looking out for people who otherwise it's easy to ignore or easy to, to shove to the side. Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has just been such an interesting conversation. And, um, we have other questions from listeners that we want to discuss in different episodes. And yeah, just encourage more people if you have questions that you want to hear our thoughts on. We might not always have time. the answers, but we can definitely bring our own thoughts, our own research and practices into discussion for you to, um, yeah, work with. And as Krysia said, agree with us, disagree with us. Um, yeah, it's a conversation. Um, so yeah, you can send us any questions that you have, um, or if you just want to get in touch to say hi, that's also fine. You can contact us on social media. at Autism Theology. We're hoping to set up a Blue Sky account soon, so you can find us there too, hopefully at some point in the near future. Or you can send us an email at cat@abdn.ac.uk our next webinar with the Centre for Autism and Theology is taking place on the 20th of February at 7. 30pm, where the topic is on autism and sense scaping. There will be a link to register for that in the show notes. Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology podcast. If you have any questions for us, or just want to say hi, Please email us at cat@abdn.ac.Uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.