[00:00:00] Dan: 

[00:00:05] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Be the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Good emphasis on together, there.

[00:00:17] Dan: I hope you like my new emphasis though. I thought I'd just try different things now as we're going into this, uh, into this new series. Crazy Man.

[00:00:26] Pia: So it is now, I, I believe just you and the lovely Mrs. Hammond at home now. So your Ukrainian guests, um, have returned to the Ukraine, which they, they must be just enlighted to be doing that, to be reunited with their own families and friends back there.

[00:00:46] Dan: Yes. Completely. Sort of just, every, just, just under a year on.

[00:00:50] Pia: And, and I think that, and that sort of ties in a bit with our, which, our theme, which we'll come to today, that is sort of a, a critical incident. And it, and it, you, you made a choice that actually probably many of us haven't made. And you really, I think it's a very courageous one to take a couple of people that were essentially, Strangers, but to come in and live in your home and to be living with you for a, a year. You've had a few weeks to sort of, I guess, reflect, uh, what, what are you, what's, what's surfacing in what you're thinking about the whole experience?

[00:01:26] Dan: Yeah, I mean it's um, we have had time to reflect and, um, yeah, look, we did want to do something. We saw, we see this as a, you know, this, this is probably something that people might debate, but we, you know, we genuinely see, see Putin as a, as a, as a threat, you know, to democracy and what, whatever, even, whatever terrible shape democracy is in, you know, we think that what he's doing is terrible. So we wanted to do something and as our friend Rob Metcalf always says, so what are you doing about it? So we wanted to not get caught out on that. And we're very, very pleased we did. We're very fortunate people, you know, we got a pretty decent sized house. We've got room for people. We have fortunately some very, um, generous daughters as well who give up their rooms to do that. Um, so, you know, we are very pleased with that

[00:02:13] Dan: . I think interestingly, that the subsequent weeks are, you know, as they left, it was quite emotional I think for all of us. You know, I think that, um, our guest Elaina was, is going back to a potentially dangerous environment. Going back to Odessa. It's not. Too dangerous. They think it's safe and life goes on, but it's not, they're not through the woods yet. So I think that there's probably mixed feelings. But you know, the interesting thing is we, couple of couple of observations. She, we see her now back home and she looks like a different person and you forget sometimes that, um, she was lovely throughout, she was delightful. Sunny was the word that her friends gave her. And she was. But wow, it's easy to forget that this is a terrible situation and they're under a lot of stress and they're away from their father and husband. So, you know, it's lovely to know that she's back. And seeing her thriving, which is, which is wonderful.

[00:03:02] Dan: I think the other thing looking back, and it sort of leads into today is we did those things, but the community response to this was amazing. And if you put a thing on the chat saying the lad staying with us needs a, a PC monitor, you're gonna get people delivering them to your doorstep, you know? I need an adapter for an Apple Mac from 19, you know, 20, 20 15 or whatever there it is on your doorstep. It was mad. So there was a lovely community. So I think everyone felt that same, a lot of people felt the same need and um, and whatever desire to actually support in this really tough situation. And I think that's the overall thing. It can all be very nice. We're all living together lovely in Ilkley, but the reality is there is a war going on where tens of thousands of people are being killed. And that's, I don't think that ever left our, um, our guests.

[00:03:57] Pia: no, no. Probably not for the rest of their lives. We talked about on this podcast that six weeks after arriving in our, our move to the country and, um, sort of change of living, we were inundated by supposedly the worst floods in a thousand years. And the responses was just phenomenal. I had a, I had a similar experience of just that community. And there was just something very simple which was there were three boards, white boards that, that turned up in the heart of our little town. And so something that always interests me, who was the person behind H? 

[00:04:34] Dan: I think you might have talked about this before. Yeah, there's something going on there. 

[00:04:38] Pia: extraordinary. So we tracked him down.

[00:04:42] Dan: you did, 

[00:04:42] Pia: And his name is Gaz Breen and he, he's got an extraordinary story to tell, I think about that time, but also about his observations of a community that really rallies together. And I think in our somewhat splintered, work life and sometimes of community, there's an awful lot that we can, we can learn from this. So let's, um, let's hop over and, and listen to Gaz. 

[00:05:11] Pia: We're gonna hear a lot more about it, but I think we mentioned it on the podcast a couple of seasons ago, six weeks after I arrived here, we had a thousand year flood in our area. And I was absolutely blown away by how all the, the rescue efforts were coordinated. And I think Dan and and Juliet were talking about, I wonder who that was. Well, we tracked you down. We found you. So we, we heard through the wondrous platform of Facebook, but you were the man that coordinated that. So that's gonna be really interesting to hear, hear about that today and, and what created that teamwork behind that. But before we get to the juicy bits, we have to get to the tough bits first. And so I'm gonna hand over to Dan for the cards.

[00:06:04] Dan: Uh, great to have you here. So, um, okay. Um, I am shuffling some virtual cards. This time I'm out and about with my laptop, but I have the cards here and I'm shuffling away merrily and. Your card is Okay. The worst piece of advice I ever received. 

[00:06:20] Gaz: Thing about bad advice is the, is, uh, the aim of the game is to immediately delete it in one's mind. it's very difficult to recall, bad advice.

[00:06:29] Dan: That's good advice.

[00:06:30] Gaz: I read far too much philosophy, Dan, to confess. And, um, I quite like Arthur Schopenhauer's nihilistic sort of point of view on things. He's a bit of crankopotamus and, um, he wasn't meant to be funny when he stated. The shortness of life, though so often lamented is probably the best thing about it. Because I don't actually agree with that. I, I think it's horrible advice, um, but it does make me laugh. Laugh nonetheless.

[00:06:55] Dan: Well, I find that's really interesting, but I didn't realize it was Schopenhauer, but I know my wife's dad would says, oh, I can't imagine if you could live forever, what? That would be hell. Well look that, that's a good answer. We've never had Schopenhauer mentioned on in our answer to a card before Pia, so I think we're off to a cracking start.

[00:07:10] Pia: that's raise. Raise the bar intellectually straight away.

[00:07:13] Gaz: Oh, thank you very much. 

[00:07:14] Dan: Um, g Gaz, just talk to us about what, um, what got you to this point. Tell us about your, your life up to this point, however short it might or long it might be.

[00:07:23] Gaz: In, in the context of my involvement amongst many others in the floods, it would start whenever I joined the Army as a, uh, as an officer. Went through 18 months of officer training down at the Royal Military College Duntree, and then a a nine month course thereafter specializing in military engineering. And I spent six years in the Australian army as an officer deploying to places like, uh, the Kimberley to build, health facilities and infrastructure for remote original community out there. Uh, and then also into East Timor in a very similar construction project management role.

[00:07:59] Gaz: From leaving the army, I've been working in the humanitarian sector for the last 10 years, largely centering on landmine clearance and, and bond disposal. That's, uh, what the phrase I would use to call it, uh, to you folk. But, uh, technically we would call it humanitarian mine action. Uh, I've been doing that for the last 10 years and will soon deploy over to a, uh, unstated, uh, recent conflict area, uh, in the coming weeks to deploy my craft. In, uh, humanitarian bond disposal.

[00:08:29] Pia: Let's just go there first. Tell us about the day job. What, what do you actually do? Do you diffuse bombs and mine fields or, or what else is actually happening in your role?

[00:08:43] Gaz: There's dozens of different countries in which I've been to, and the context for each is very, very different. Believe it or not, it's quite rare for a guy like me from a western country to, to actually get their hands on, uh, a bond disposal task. Largely, it's a lot about to do with capacity building and instruction, providing guidance to countries, grappling with their explosive hazards, contamination to how to, how to deal with that. 

[00:09:09] Gaz: So, It sometimes, uh, and the fun times do involve getting hands on destroying bombs. Uh, but largely it's all about making one self redundant, passing on the skills that we all have, and making, I guess a mini me someone who can more or less make you redundant. So to do your, you're always trying to do yourself out of a job.

[00:09:31] Dan: And sadly I imagine there are plenty of other jobs to go onto, but, so Gaz, can you just zoom out for our listener? Because this is something you're involved in so much. What's, talk to us about landmines. Could you, um, just so we know the full context, what's the military intent of the people who lay them?

[00:09:46] Gaz: Globally, we use the word landmines a lot in landmine clearance, but actually landmines represent maybe only half of what we deal without in the field. Landmines, um, can come in two forms. Anti personnel in anti vehicle landmines. Now, anti personnel minds, you might have come across previous media releases or coverage from, say, Princess Diana's, uh, advocacy about the banning of anti-personnel landmines. And they have been banned, but however, are still continuously used, whether it be in a conventional or improvised sense.

[00:10:21] Gaz: Anti vehicle landmines, uh, which you'd see on the news commonly used in Ukraine at the moment. And they're not technically illegal, but they, they can do some serious damage to a vehicle, uh, usually killing all occupants in inside.

[00:10:35] Gaz: And the, we have globally landmines that have been laid during World War One and two that are still perfectly functional. And unfortunately it takes a tremendous amount of effort and time and money to clear them. It can be very cheap to lay, but very expensive to remove. And unfortunately, globally we seem to be going backwards with the amount of land that is contaminated with explosive hazards such as landmines.

[00:11:00] Gaz: The other 50% is, is what you would call, what we call unexploded ordinances, whether it be rockets, missiles, guided weapons, the list goes on that have been fired from one warring party to another, and a certain percentage of those have not functioned, uh, and still present quite the risk to a civilian population in that area.

[00:11:23] Pia: I know this is gonna sound like a really dumb question, but do you put yourself in danger when you're in your working environment? 

[00:11:29] Gaz: Well, it's, it's, it's difficult to answer that question because sometimes I think the only time that explosive hazards are dangerous is when you're not looking for them. It's the person that's the, the innocent civilian that doesn't know they're there. They're always in danger when they're in that context. But when you know what you're doing, it becomes a process. And it's not a complicated process. There's a little bit of smarts involved, but once the, the smart and intellectual component has been satisfied, it just really comes down to hard work and it is a process.

[00:12:02] Gaz: Is there residual risk? Yes, of course there is, but to be honest, I think there's probably more risk to someone who's driving a truck from Brisbane, Brisbane to Sydney, uh, or a fisherman who's out there, you know, catching a fresh fish. but of course I'd, I'd be lying to you if I said there was no danger.

[00:12:20] Pia: No, I had a, a brief thought about it once a couple of decades back when I was traveling through Africa and I was in, I was actually in Mozambique and we had a a pee stop on the bus and they said, you can go behind that bush. And I never, I remember thinking, I think there's a lot of landmines in this country and, and I really don't wanna be, I've either got the choice that I'm going to be, be seen to be doing my business, but safe or I'm going to go behind a bush. And that may not may in the, in the undergrowth., That may not necessarily be that safe, 

[00:12:56] Dan: Get blown up in privacy. 

[00:12:58] Pia: I know exactly with your pants which would be a really good, really good, know, But yeah, but I remember that was the first time I'd ever you know, just in my young mind, put two and two together. Obviously it was fine. But because I think for most people who are listening today that they're not, they're, they may not have experienced that danger, but it seems to be, as you say, it's actually, it's quite a prevailing problem around the world.

[00:13:25] Gaz: Es, especially in the Middle East in the last five. Odd years. And then now obviously Ukraine is hugely contaminated as a country. So, so it doesn't look like there's gonna be any lack of, uh, work to get on with in the, in the foreseeable future.

[00:13:40] Dan: Um, so guys, you are a professional mind clearance consultant. You are sitting at home one day, I guess, and there are some floods. Talk us through those events. What were, where were you, what happened? And, and, and particularly, what was it that made you, um, take some initiative to do something?

[00:13:58] Gaz: I was actually, I was actually away from work domestically whenever the rains opened up and it was only on the very first morning in which it was safe for everyone to come out of their homes and get to work is is i'd. I've re arrived the night before. And basically what had happened, I think just about everyone who wanted to get involved in helping out with the floods, be it from Brisbane Gold Coast in the valley, in the area. I guess everybody had a small moment of reflection to realize, uh, have a realization as to what they can do to help out with the situation. And of course there's a huge, hugely diverse mixture of skills that are out there and available. And, um, I just came to the realization that my most valuable skill set within this particular context wasn't necessarily to get on a shovel, uh, or to get on a mop and broom, bucket. It was actually getting into my element, which is operations management, which, um, is a fancy way of saying connecting an asset with a need. So defining a need and connecting an asset to achieve a change in environment to help out with the problem at hand.

[00:15:09] Gaz: And so with that, it became, that became the problem to be solved. Like how do we, how do we collect and centralize all the information that describes and illustrates our needs in the community? And how do we go about collating all the assets and connecting the two? And so we've managed to get a couple of whiteboards and we have, uh, a bit of a technology genius in the village who set us up with the starlink, um, an internet so that we're able to liaise with our, with other hubs, uh, in the valley and in the Tweed Shire. And we were managed to liaise with police and RFS and SES to basically build up a picture of what resources were available.

[00:15:52] Gaz: And, and we, and, and that's basically what we did. We called it, I called it an operations desk, uh, other places called it, uh, uh, a hub. But essentially my strength in operations management was, was what I chose to, to take up. And it wasn't, I wasn't alone in this. I, I had many other, um, Individuals help me out with the operations coordination role, you know, that come from the village.

[00:16:16] Pia: Gaz, I mean, it was my first experience of actually being in a. Sort of human or sorry, in a, in a natural disaster like this. Um, and we'd only arrived six weeks before, so we were, we were wet behind the ears. And I remember the rain had just continued. It had just gone on for weeks and weeks, and then it just climaxed with this 36 hours of just a huge downpour. What was the damage to the surrounding area? Like what, what was actually happening and or were you able to get any communication to those people? Because we were safe, but I was cr very aware that other people weren't.

[00:17:01] Gaz: Needs, needs assessment was, was difficult in the, in the early days, especially in the remote, remote pockets of the valley where they had a lot of landslips. Thankfully we managed to get dirt bike riders up there to make face-to-face contacts and to do a needs analysis on site as to what needed to be done. And, um, it was a challenge. And generally, I find too, the challenge is a lot of people in this, in this valley are very stoic, really tough, and might be reluctant to ask for help, and there was a period of shock and trauma that had to be processed before asking for help. Um, so a lot of that face-to-face interaction really helped out with that.

[00:17:47] Gaz: But largely the damage caused the biggest, most severely damaged sites were landslides in sort of steeper, hilly areas, in terms of visible damage. But then you also had. A lot of psychological trauma that came from people getting worried that they were gonna get washed away down a mountain, uh, lost of fresh water, loss of electricity, no communications. And there was great difficulty in making sure that, you know, everyone in, in the village that should be there is there, that we haven't actually lost anyone. Um, making sure life and limb was, was preserved as the number one, number one requirement and a lot of other members of the village got started with that very early, um, as the operations, uh, coordination desk was being set up to make sure that we've got everyone.

[00:18:31] Dan: Uh, so Gaz, just, just for our listener, could you give us an ex a couple of examples maybe of this. Uh, of the needs that are met by assets in this situation. So what, what, what were sort of, maybe some of the sort of key ones, but just just to illustrate what, um, what needs you uncovered and how you met that with assets.

[00:18:48] Gaz: Okay. This, the, the need, the list of needs that, that came through. Oh, it was. Near a hundred different tasks and they're all quite different. But the major ones that we had was, say, unsafe elec electrical systems where people had been inundated and they needed an electrician to come through and render safe or their electrical system. We had a lot of people that were completely cut off in terms of being able to get themselves and their vehicle out onto the road because the roads were completely blocked where the driveway had been washed away.

[00:19:18] Gaz: We had a lot of people without fresh water that needed fresh water carted to them. And we had a certain section of the valley that was cut off from any sort of fresh food. So, so fresh food had to be more or less cooked in a centralized location down here in the village and, and transported up to them, um, to keep them sustained.

[00:19:38] Gaz: Uh, a lot of people's had a lot of mud and water moved through their house, basically rendering everything, you know, completely wet, soggy, moldy, muddy. And had to more or less be put on the curb. Um, and we had a lot of great help from Brisbane and Gold Coast. A lot of young, keen capable individuals that mucked in to get, get that, um, muck out of people's houses.

[00:20:00] Gaz: A lot of people's homes were more or less condemned by the floods and had to be more or less billeted by other village members for weeks and months until their house was restored back to a livable condition.

[00:20:11] Pia: I remember coming down to the village the first time, Gaz, and seeing your three whiteboards, and I remember my draw jaw just dropped because it was just so efficient. There was like this buzz around these three boards. You know, what, what do you need? have you got to give? And then what are your, what are your details?

[00:20:32] Pia: And then as you say, the the guy that, the only guy that in the area that had starlink, which, you know, which is a satellite service and there was just people all over the curb and all in the village with their laptops because it was the only way that anyone could communicate. And suddenly a, 21st century modern town was sort of, just had to change in the way that it operated. You know, it wasn't that everyone could be independent. It felt like everybody had to really come together.

[00:21:04] Gaz: I think one of the privileges about a disaster situation is there's this common sort of shared vision that, that everybody understands. Whether, I'm sure everyone would have different terminology to describe it, but whether it be called help those in need, we all need to return people back to normal, um, or we need to do what we can is what we have, it, it sort of doesn't really matter in terms of precise terminology, but everyone had this common shared vision that was all implicitly understood by, by everybody. And I think all your listeners, and you, you both would see this so often is that when you work in a workplace, and this is true if I'm working in the private sector or the humanitarian sector or the military, it doesn't matter, that there's always this minefield that you have to walk through worth of obstructionist that all come with their own little agenda of the agenda, that want, want to let you know that their thing is the most important thing at the time when actually during the floods. I observed that all of that took a vacation. Like all of that just disappeared.

[00:22:09] Gaz: And what typically, as you've all seen as a human brain, is very good at creating the usses and the thems. Now, whether it be the whole city versus country versus the rich verse, poor or the, you know, during covid it was the VAX versus the anti-vax, or, you know, political leanings right and left. That all that sort of arbitrary made up words used to divide people and, and there's no shortage of people in this village that on any other day would be chest poking with their agenda. These, all these agendas disappeared and it was all about just unifying together with a common shared vision as to helping each other out. And, and I think if, if I could just bottle that up and replicate it any, in every workplace that I ever went to from a year until I die, I'd be a happy man. But unfortunately, it takes a quite the disaster to make that materialize.

[00:23:01] Dan: Gaz you've been in situations where there is a clear threat, um, that should unite people. Have you seen that in, in other, um, arenas, or was this something, something different?

[00:23:15] Gaz: This was different. You would think that going into conflict areas and dealing with explosive hazards would curate a unified front, but there's always the bureaucrat that's limit limiting operational efficiency based on arbitrary agendas. And, and this, the flood response was, to the extreme that a lot of those agendas in bureaucracy did disappear.

[00:23:39] Gaz: And that was another observation I made. The bureaucratic burden, it just wasn't there and it wasn't tolerated. That if anyone or anything, whether it be civil society or civil defense or police or whoever, if they ever made an attempt to tell us what to do or to water down our operations or to make it less ineffective, it just wasn't tolerated.

[00:23:58] Gaz: It's almost like grassroot movements. Um, it can sometimes mean that they have to be deliberate. And ruthlessly exclude things like government and civil society that fail to bring any operational value on the ground. And I will admit, Burringbar does, it does have a flare of disobedience about it in terms of the culture of the village, which I do like, which at the time during the floods was utilized, quite liberally by us all, to get what we needed to get done and to be in service of each other.

[00:24:26] Pia: I knew, that's why I was, I was, that's why I came to live here. Slightly disobedient character. 

[00:24:33] Gaz: Yes, which I do like about it.

[00:24:35] Pia: I think that's so interesting about that prioritization though. That you say you almost have to ruthlessly exclude. Did that cause any tension? 

[00:24:44] Gaz: Everyone within the village that was in the service of each other, there was no friction there that I observed. The friction point was more towards civil society. We had a couple of NGOs turn up to our coordination desk and try to give us just useless advice for the sake of saying that they had come and said hello and gave us advice, but they were just completely useless. Like more hindrance than help. Thankfully at the time, we had someone at the coordination desk that is a doctor by trade and, uh, she's very good at, at massaging impolite phrases in a very polite way to more or less tell them to go find something else more interesting to do. 

[00:25:24] Pia: That's always good when you have someone to 

[00:25:26] Dan: Rearrange these words into well-known phrase or saying, 

[00:25:29] Pia: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:25:30] Gaz: Yeah, I was, I was, a little bit busy at the time with ops coordination of volunteers, so I was quite happy to de delegate that task out to someone with a softer approach.

[00:25:39] Dan: ju can I just, just dive into that a little bit, guys? Those people in this situation, you know, it. Were obstructive to you, but what, what's, what's happening? What do you think is happening for them? Cause I'm sure their intent wasn't to disrupt. What, what is it about this sort of bureaucratic force that, that can present an obstacle in these situations?

[00:26:01] Dan: It makes, you know, people generally have good intent, but somehow that seems to be, um, having a negative impact. What's, what, what's the story there? What's going on for them and why does that not have the impact that they probably would like as well?

[00:26:15] Gaz: Well, to be in their defense to start with, they probably would not of the realization that we had some pretty sophisticated skill sets within the village itself and that they potentially thought they were coming as technical advisors to give us good advice about how to run these things without realizing that we had a, a gr a small group of people running operations that were probably more experienced than, uh, in those dark arts than they were without realizing. So that, that's firstly in, that's in their defense.

[00:26:48] Gaz: The second thing that I noticed, and this this came up during the debrief, I had this bizarre situation during the debrief in the Willenberg where we all got together and talked about how we could do it better. We had this one gentleman who flew in from a particular civil society who more or less started giving advice that what we did at the coordination hub was illegal, that we are not allowed to coordinate volunteers to people in need. And it just sort of blew my mind based on like who else was gonna do it?

[00:27:20] Gaz: I mean, there were other towns and villages that were in a greater need that had a lot more government assets and a lot of civil society and emergency services operated there, which is fine, but for barring by our little village, not one was coming, it was, it's all down to us that the need was actually greater elsewhere and it was really up to us to take control. And it just blew my mind that this gentleman brought up legal frameworks as to what is and isn't legal. We couldn't have cared less what was legal or illegal. I could have broken the law a hundred times and I still wouldn't have cared because that was the need on the ground at the time. And again, it comes back to that flare of disobedience.

[00:28:01] Gaz: But it, I guess it comes with what I said before about the agendas. Whenever people bring in their agendas, and not under the shared, unified vision of what we're trying to do, that's when things started to go awry.

[00:28:13] Pia: So you talked about the unity and, and that sort of, that ruthless exclusion of anything that isn't gonna help to achieve that goal. What else did you notice?

[00:28:24] Gaz: So I noticed that it's, I think you would hear the term talent stacking, or you would call it skills integration, or you might call it skills synergy. I'm not too sure, but basically what I noticed is that. If you've got diversity of skills, it doesn't mean mu much if you don't synergize it. You have, we have this incredibly diverse, I guess, workforce of volunteers that when you mix and match a multitude of different skills and stack them together to, to achieve very complex and complicated tasks, it is, it is amazing what you can get done.

[00:28:58] Gaz: And I'll give you an example. We had a troop of guys from the Army. It was about 15 of them, and they were the loveliest guys ever. But it was quickly identifiable. By myself that the, the mission that they had been given was more or less to turn up and to shovel mud and to sweat bullets and to, you know, be heavy laborers essentially. And we also had what was called a troop of combat engineers, which is my ex skill in the army as a, as an officer. And I know that that particular asset has a huge variety of capabilities that would've been useful, but again, the orders that the army was given from their politicians was to basically be on the ground, sweat bullets, swing shovels, be heavy labor, and the combat engineering element could really only bring chainsaws, and that's about it. So very, very limited in terms of the scope of what they can provide.

[00:29:53] Gaz: However, we had two gentlemen in the village, one an ex-professional firefighter, and one who's a, was a licensed carpenter and plumber, and they had all, all the tools all the abilities. Very capable four wheel drives, and were prepared to go to the most remote pockets of the valley to help out. Now, in the instance of those two gentlemen working together, there's only so much that two guys with lots of skills can do. And in terms of what can 15 very strong fit soldiers can do with shovels, also very limited. But when we combine them together, it just opens up a world of opportunities where they compliment each other. And they, as, as a combined team, were able to create so much more synergy together by combining a community asset with a, a federal government asset. We were, we were able to achieve a lot more.

[00:30:47] Pia: I think that's so interesting actually. Sometimes we miss that synergy because we double down on the diversity piece and we think that ticks a box. But, and it's not that it doesn't, because, I mean, the other part point is that you could have no diversity, but you haven't got the right skills at all. But that synergy is, is a, is the next level really. in, in terms of sort of collectively getting a better outcome from a team, from a group of people. 

[00:31:14] Gaz: And there are some people that, you know, by the look of them, you wouldn't have thought would be an incredible asset in a, in a very tough field environment. And it sort of just goes to show another, another example. Sometimes it's really difficult to pick people who can really last under pressure. And that you can be surprised as, you know, some people who you think would be a complete asset whenever times get tough sometimes are nowhere to be seen versus people who you think wouldn't be much chopped, um, you know, are working day and night and, you know, moving mountains. It's very, very hard to pick on very superficial grounds.

[00:31:49] Dan: We had a, a guest, Gaz, on the show. Uh, she's been on twice actually, Marsha, and she's a. A big advocate for diversity and inclusion. And she says the same. That diversity is nothing if you don't use that, you know, understand what you've got in front of you and use it to the maximum. And that's a, that's a leadership task. So otherwise the diversity and just sit there dormant the, the skills you've got, the capabilities you've got have to be unlocked. Have to be unlocked. Yeah. It was really interesting to see that on the ground though, in this situation. 

[00:32:20] Pia: I wanted to ask, Gaz, how long did the ops desk remain open? So you talked about people's like resilience and energy. How long did this go on for?

[00:32:32] Gaz: I think it was about 10 days we were, we were up and running, in total. At the early stages, for the first, I think five or six days, it was fairly intensively operated. But then, uh, towards the end it was more of a passive, we left the whiteboards up and people could help themselves by registering tasks and volunteering themselves, um, sort of a self-directed automatic process rather than being directed by myself and others that were at the desk.

[00:32:59] Pia: Which I think is quite interesting that. The system started to sort of shape itself so people then knew how to, you didn't require a leader in that role. People, people knew the system and knew how to sort of self lead and to manage their own assets.

[00:33:16] Pia: I remember being so impressed by the review. You know, it, it was like an agile retrospective, um, in Burringbar Hall. Pro, probably about six weeks later when everybody there, there was probably 60, 70 people that turned up. And I remember, well, I think what really struck me was, as you talk about the stoicism, was, the recognition that this was a natural disaster and it probably would happen again. So what did we learn and what will we do better next time? And that was so refreshing because you don't often see that pragmatism and foresight in the corporate world. What, what was your take on it?

[00:33:58] Gaz: Sure. It sort of comes back to how I say e everyone in, not everyone, but this valley has a flare of stoicism in terms of figuring out what are other things that we can control and forgetting the rest, you know, don't, not getting involved in all the government bashing that was going on, or thinking the worst in people, or any sort of conspiracy theories about cloud seating or anything like that. But what are the things that we can directly control?

[00:34:26] Gaz: And one of the things that we did identify was that during the first 48 hours is our probably most vulnerable period in which no logistics are coming in from Brisbane and Gold Coast. And it w it was amazing how people would turn up from Brisbane and Gold Coast with a, a car or a van full of logistics that we needed. But up until that point, we were, we were on our own. So we managed to find a, a small, uh, I guess you call it a warehouse at the sports club that we've since stocked with all, uh, key equipment and medical supplies, so that in the Doris of circumstances when this happens again, we're able to be self-sufficient to a point for the first 48 hours or so. And, and purchasing equipment that makes us better to better interoperability with, uh, other, other hubs and with other government assets. And, um, and, hey, we've done that. It's all sitting there. Ready, ready to go, ready for next time. 

[00:35:24] Pia: And there will be a next time. 

[00:35:25] Gaz: and there will be next time, we do have a, a rough sketch of how we're gonna, organize, our organizational diagram as to who's going to look after what and where. And, uh, it'll be a little bit more automatic this time. Everyone has been well practiced in, in how to go about this and, um, it should be a lot easier to replicate next time.

[00:35:47] Dan: And. in between these big events, is there anything communities can take away, you know, just in, in normal life? Do you think that'll work? I mean, this idea of someone has a need, someone has an asset, is, is there anything that can, could, I was thinking about those boards, you know, they, they started to have their own life, when do you take them down or when they're, but, or do they actually always have a, have a role in a community to, have that matchup of need to asset? 

[00:36:15] Gaz: Well, I guess the, the big takeaway with the acuteness of a disaster response is if you are not. Being the asset to address the need and what are you doing? Cause we've all, we've all seen it haven't we, in, in teams where you feel like you've got someone on the team that you swear that their agenda is just to get paid and to go home on time. And it's sort of hard to recruit that person around a shared vision of achieving an operational output oor achieving a project's conclusion. And sometimes you, you have people that, I call them empire builders, people that wanna use each and every day to try to gain political points for someone somewhere, as opposed to getting on board generating solutions. So I guess we all have to turn inwards, don't we, and think, am I be, am I the problem? Am I the solution? Am I the asset heading towards the need? Of achieving success towards a shared goal or, or am I being a, a hindrance towards it? the answer isn't obvious, then you're probably a hindrance rather than a help.

[00:37:18] Pia: I think that is a wonderful way to conclude. And I think it's a great question. Really great question. Because sometimes we can finger point and actually we've gotta start with ourselves. And I think asking yourself whether you are an asset or a hindrance is a really good, really good, strong question to ask.

[00:37:36] Gaz: Sometimes really menial tasks can have a hugely like beneficial enabling effect towards towards a, a shared vision. Like, for example, during the floods, we had an amazing team of people that were operating at our hall. And they were providing childcare, doing laundry for our army troops. Doing cooking for people in the community, community who had lost all their food cuz their fridge had died. Um, people distributing stores now that might not seem like the very cool, sexy, cold face out in the field with a shovel, um, and a bane between your teeth sort of work. But those what are seemingly menial tasks are really, actually really meaningful, and really do support those who who are out there on the coalface trying to, trying to do the hard yards.

[00:38:27] Gaz: So in the same respect that I say, when you look inwards, are you an asset or a liability towards a shared common goal or vision? Don't discount yourself if it seems like a menial task. Cuz, cuz often they're very enabling and meaningful to those who are out there on the so-called cold face.

[00:38:47] Pia: It was the first time I actually realized I was in a natural disaster, and it's really interesting to hear it from somebody who was coordinating a large part of the, the rescue efforts, along with a large team in our community. And there was no loss of life. And this community is prepared. So thank you, Gaz. I think it's, it's been a real pleasure to talk with you and the best of luck in your next deployment. Stay well and stay safe. Thank you.

[00:39:17] Gaz: Thanks, Peter. 

[00:39:18] Dan: Wow. Well, one thing that GA said right at the outset there that I've actually seen with a couple of leaders just in the last week, is that one about choosing your role. I thought that was a great moment where he thought I could pick up a shovel here, and make myself probably, to be honest, feel, and look useful, but actually I have a skill here that I can add, you know, that, that is required. This operations management that I need to do. And, and, and I thought that was, that's a really great leadership moment. And he applied the same to everyone else in the community. If he saw a soldier, he didn't just think, great, that's a person with a shovel. No, that person can do X, Y Z as well. So it's really elevating roles and using your skills to the very best, not just letting yourself sort of sink down into what looks good or what could be easy. I thought that was a really great start and uh, something that we can all take away.

[00:40:12] Pia: And I, and building on that, I think it was an interesting take to see the value you can bring as an asset, and matching the asset to the need. You know, which seems sort of quite a, sort of mechanical way. But actually no, it's a really smart way. Because, you know, we often see that in teams, it becomes about me and, and we're not seeing about those interdependencies and what we can, how we can maximize the assets that we're bringing into a, into a team. And I think that was a really, fresh and objective way of doing that.

[00:40:46] Pia: And so that also helped with the, ru, ruthlessly excluding anything that actually didn't help. And that ability to do that, that ruthless prioritization, when you're under the pump and you are working on that. I, and again, I think that we all get sidetracked and distracted by things. And I think it's that, Ben Hunt-Davis, you know, will it make the boat go faster? It's the, it's the same, same thing. That, you know, as they deployed for a, their, their 2000 first gold medal since 1912, uh, in the, in the Men's eight rowing. Same deal. Same deal. And I think that's really important to have that conversation and to, to make that happen.

[00:41:35] Dan: Yeah, and I initially, wasn't sure how teams in general could apply that idea, but I thought that works brilliantly in disaster situations. You've got, needs. Your electricity has been inundated. You need it fixed. Boom. that's a need. I've got asset over here with electrician, but actually I love the way he wrapped that up by saying, you know, if you are not matching as assets to needs, if you're not that person, what, what are you doing? And you can, in a, in all teams, there are needs and we all need to be saying actually, I've got something that can, can fix that. I thought it was actually just the essence of teamwork in a way, really, really brilliantly boiled down. And that is a practical tool that anyone who finds themselves in one of these situations could use.

[00:42:16] Pia: Yeah, 100%. Uh, what did you think about, um, his commentary around sort of some elements of disobedience? 

[00:42:23] Dan: I thought that was great actually. Cause I think those things, this is, he's definitely in a, you know, they, they're in a different situation, so they have to do things. I, I found it extraordinary that for some reason it's illegal to work with volunteers to help each other. Uh, there's some that seemed very strange. But you know, I think that there are times when you have to, when you have to be. And I thought that that essence of, yeah. At the heart of it's having to do that. I think the only, it gave me pause for thought. Cause I thought actually not all disobedience is necessarily good. And I of course re realized that we, not me, disobedience is good. Are you doing, are you being disobedient just for yourself and I, I'm gonna break that rule cause it benefits me. Or are you thinking No. This actually I have, this is the right thing to do cuz it actually benefits the community or the, you know, the, the wide it has to serve something bigger than yourself, I think is, you can't just be, uh, just break rules. Just, just for yourself. 

[00:43:18] Pia: I think that's what the military call the higher intent. You know, if your higher intent is really clear of what it is that you're trying to achieve and what that is, then, disobedience would be termed innovation actually in many places. But I think that the litmus tests I is that collective outcome. 

[00:43:37] Pia: Um, we recently had a bike track that was built and somebody didn't like that and put thumb tack on it for the opening day or something. And I think that was definitely not for the greater, greater good, you know? And, and actually it, I don't, think you got a lot of time a day from anyone really, because it wasn't for the good of the community,.

[00:43:57] Pia: The final bit for me was the synergizing of those skills. So you've got diversity, but bringing that synergy with it was really powerful, a really powerful way of seeing, seeing that.

[00:44:11] Dan: it was, it definitely reminded me as I said, um, in the, in the chat with Gaz of, you know, Marsha Ramroop's telling us about diverse inclusive teams, diverse, you know, integrated teams. That is what he's talking about. You know, there's a lot of theory behind that. She's seen that in all kinds of spheres. But actually here it is, uh, in play in a flood, that you, that bring diversity in. But make sure you are genuinely not just mixing people up and hoping for the best, but you are really tapping into that diversity and integrating it. Thought just a really, it's great to see it playing out large in a, in a disaster situation.

[00:44:47] Dan: So, wonderful chat with Gaz. Thanks for finding him. It's, I think it's amazing when you sometimes see those things out there in the world and think someone, there's someone, there's a group here behind this that is amazing. So it was fantastic to track someone down, which is quite unusual. Very often end up leaving it as a question unanswered. So great to talk to Gaz.

[00:45:07] Dan: But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:45:30] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.