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Learn how to build a better
sign and print shop from a few

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crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

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Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

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workflow, growth, and more.

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You are listening to The Better
Sign Shop podcast with your

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hosts, Peter Unis, Michael Riley

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and Bryant Gillespie.

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Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

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our sponsor, G C I Digital Imaging
Grand Format Printer to the Trade.

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We talk a lot about outsourcing on the
podcast and the importance of having a.

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Good partners and G C I Digital
Imaging is a good partner to have.

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Owner TJ Beak and his team focus on
providing killer customer service just

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the way grandmother used to make it.

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If you're interested in learning
their approach to business, hop

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back into the archives to episode
nine where the guys and I interview

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TJ about customer experience.

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So if you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, wraps,

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and other printed graphics that your
customers throw at you, check out

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GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.

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Alright guys, welcome back to another
episode of the Better Sign Shop podcast.

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As always, while Peter, the sign
shop, Yoda is missing in action

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today, I think he's on vacation.

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Uh, so kudos to you, Peter.

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Enjoy vacation.

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My other co-host, Michael,
the Sign Design Magic.

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Mike Samurai.

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Chimichanga Chimichanga Burrito.

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Tito The the All Around Sign guys.

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Sign guy.

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Michael Riley.

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How are you my friend?

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Good,

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how are you?

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You look good in the, the, the sweater

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there, the sweat.

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Yeah.

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You know what, it was like 95 degrees
here last week and this week it's 50.

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We've got the heat on.

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It's ah, have the flu before
long with this crazy weather.

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Yeah.

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Never on the East coast.

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We've been slammed with rain.

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I got to spend Memorial Day cleaning up
my basement, which was, uh, had a nice bit

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of standing water in it, so that was fun.

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That's always fun.

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That, that makes me, one of the
few things that makes me thankful

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that I don't have a basement.

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I've been there a few times
and it's always a nightmare.

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It was supposed to be a man cave.

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It is actually a kid's playroom.

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You know, I was fortunate that we
put like the vinyl waterproof, like

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planking floor down there because
I knew that this was gonna happen.

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Happens like once a year whenever
we just get like a nasty rain.

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But the worst part is just moving all the
stuff out of the way so you can flip the

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couches over so that they dry properly.

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It's just a pain.

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And this is the room that you just had
remodeled not too long ago too, right?

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Oh, I'll do that.

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It's been like the pandemic.

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It doesn't feel like that long
ago, but it was, it's honestly

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like, uh, yeah, like three or four

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years ago at this point.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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That's crazy, isn't it?

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It feels like it was two months ago.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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Post pandemic time.

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Yeah.

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Boy.

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So what's new with you, man?

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What are you, what are you've been up to?

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I don't, oh, not much.

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Just, uh, just staying pretty busy,
uh, pretty steady with design work and,

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uh, working more than I wish I was.

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And, uh, just started painting the house.

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Part of the house project has
progressed to, uh, the exterior

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paint stage, so that's a lot of fun.

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I could barely walk today.

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I, I climbed up and down the,
uh, extension ladder like

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five or 600 times yesterday.

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My, uh, my, my step tracker on
my phone says I, I walked like

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four and a half miles and it was
all up and down a ladder, so, oh,

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you should have got a lift.

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Yeah, if I could get one on
my yard, somebody, oh, hey.

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Surely we've got somebody that
listens to the podcast that could

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bring over a truck and just Yeah.

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Right.

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Set you up in the bucket.

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Anybody in Oregon hook
me up free chimichangas.

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Yeah.

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Well, I'll tell you what, I'm happy to
be doing this episode of the podcast.

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I don't.

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I, I think this is the first one
since my emergency appendectomy.

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So that was a fun experience.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I wasn't sure if you wanted to talk about
that, but how, how are you recovering?

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Uh, yeah, I'm happy

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to talk about it.

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I, I will say word of advice to the
audience if you are over the age of 30,

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and even if you're not, um, but more
so if you're over the age of 30, if you

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are experiencing pains that are kind of
weird, you're not really sure what it is

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or don't just ignore it, go to the doctor.

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Um, I woke up, it was like a
Wednesday, several weeks ago.

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Had some stomach pain.

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I had assumed, just like I've had
acid reflux for years and, you

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know, I fought with it on and off.

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I'd assume it was something like that,
or maybe an ulcer, something non-serious.

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Got involved in meetings and
kind of went away, ignored it.

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By the time I got done with meetings and
like actually stopped, And sat down and

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didn't have anything to do at the moment.

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I was like, man, the pain is
really awful, so go get the kids.

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My wife's driving like I'm
sweating in the passenger seat.

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It's like we're getting up there
on the pain scale, like six,

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six or eight maybe come back.

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I call Mr.

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Mike here because I'm
thinking that it's an ulcer.

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Mike's like, Hey, try pickle juice.

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I'm standing at the refrigerator
like trying not to gag and suck

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back some of this pickle juice.

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Wait 45 minutes to an
hour, still no relief.

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And then the pain is just
mounting at this point.

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Uh, go to the local urgent care.

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Wait 45 minutes there, pacing around in
the actual like waiting room, thinking

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okay, like making everybody uncomfortable.

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They weren't sure if I was gonna
like shoot up the place or cough

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and give everybody covid or
what was gonna happen, you know?

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So finally I see the doctor
and they send me to the er.

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It turns out I have a severe
acute appendicitis and have

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to have emergency surgery.

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Damn.

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Buta, bing, buta, boon.

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Well, I'm glad that you, you
know, it sucks, but I guess

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it could have been worse.

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I'm glad that you, um, were in
and out quick and seems like

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you had a really quick recovery.

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Sorry about the pickle juice.

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Yeah, yeah,

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yeah.

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That was by far not the worst part of it.

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It was pretty bad, but I'm sure it
wasn't, not the worst part of it.

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Yeah.

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For,

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for now, modern medicine is great.

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I've got three little scars on my stomach.

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Like the, the worst part of that was I'm
a, this is probably tmmi for the audience,

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but I'm a naturally pretty hairy guy.

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So like, they shaved all of my belly
and left, like the top part kinda looked

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like I was wearing like a, a hairy
bra, you know, it was like my kids

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were laughing at me, so I had to just
go ahead and like shave all of it off.

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Now I'm in like the Wolf Man stage.

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Man, that makes me think of the
scene from, uh, the 40 year Old

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Virgin where, uh, Steve Cor goes.

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Oh, oh, Kelly Clarkson.

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Yes.

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That's, I think we need to see like a
side by side comparison of, of, of you

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and, and Steve Corll from that moment.

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Oh God.

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See if, who

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wore it best.

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Yeah, babe.

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That'll get the next
cease and desist letter.

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A hundred percent.

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Well, I'm glad that you, uh, recovered
so quickly and it wasn't, um, I

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mean, I, I wish it was something
less serious for you, but I'm glad

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it wasn't anything more serious.

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And I, you know, really in, in the
long run, I, I'm glad it wasn't

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an ulcer, cuz an ulcer is really
something you can't get rid of.

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So at least this was something that Yeah.

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Stuck temporarily, but
it's not a long-term thing,

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so.

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Yeah.

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And the, the appendix is useless, so yeah.

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Why not get rid

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of it?

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Did you keep it?

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Did they like give it to you in a jar?

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Uh, I didn't ask.

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I, I should have though.

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I did go back, feel like they
shoulda that I went back this You

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could like, sent that to somebody.

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Yeah.

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The doctor said the path pathology
results came back and he said,

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um, it did not rupture, but it
was very close to rupturing.

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So

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anyway, I guess they caught it in time.

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I, I've heard that's just
like absolutely miserable.

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If it does, does rupture.

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It's a pretty, oh yeah.

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I was, I was a total baby about it.

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Like, I, I was, you know, I was
like, they asked for your pain

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scale and I was like, oh, it's 10.

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It's 10, it's 10.

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And my wife's over there
like, eh, like childbirth bro.

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Like, just come off of it a little bit.

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But, uh,

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that's hilarious.

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Well, so I'm excited for
the episode today, man.

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00:09:01,949 --> 00:09:03,451
As am I I'm, I'm so close.

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00:09:03,456 --> 00:09:03,540
What

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do we, what have we

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00:09:04,140 --> 00:09:04,949
got on the slate?

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00:09:05,790 --> 00:09:10,140
We have got, uh, gentleman by
the name of Shane Deford Canada.

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He is, uh, been around for a long
time and he is a prolific sign,

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00:09:16,110 --> 00:09:18,959
carver sign, painter, sign designer.

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00:09:19,319 --> 00:09:21,600
The guy does just
absolutely phenomenal work.

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00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,370
I've been kind of social media stalking
this guy for a long time, most of my

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00:09:26,370 --> 00:09:30,750
career, I would say on, uh, he, his
work is just absolutely phenomenal.

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It's on a, it's on another level.

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I, I, there's a lot of really talented,
fantastic sign makers out there, but

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something about Shane's work is just, I
don't know, it calls to me or something.

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It's beautiful.

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00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,290
So really excited to have him on the show
and, uh, pick his brain a little bit.

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00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:47,579
And, uh, yeah,

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00:09:47,579 --> 00:09:52,620
I, I think for me it is, it kind
of goes back to like the signage

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00:09:52,620 --> 00:09:54,750
that you got in the business for.

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Totally.

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00:09:55,250 --> 00:09:55,540
Yeah.

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00:09:55,540 --> 00:09:57,449
Like, yeah, everybody
gets into this industry.

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They wanna make signs like he
makes, I mean, it's like, You the

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00:10:01,005 --> 00:10:05,835
pinnacle of handcrafted signage
that, you know, anybody would be

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00:10:05,835 --> 00:10:07,515
jealous to have this guy's portfolio.

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00:10:07,905 --> 00:10:08,085
Yeah.

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00:10:08,505 --> 00:10:10,305
Super excited about it.

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00:10:10,995 --> 00:10:13,425
Couple different threads I
think we're gonna touch on.

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00:10:13,425 --> 00:10:18,465
I know that like Shane was in the
industry for a long time, took a

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00:10:18,465 --> 00:10:21,255
break, I'm assuming because of burnout.

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00:10:21,735 --> 00:10:25,215
Uh, very real story for you and myself.

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00:10:25,515 --> 00:10:28,245
So curious to get his take on that.

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00:10:28,695 --> 00:10:31,995
And then, you know, I I, I feel
like there's a lot of folks out

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there who want to do this type of
work, uh, but don't necessarily

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know where to get started with it.

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You know, like how do you, how do you
break into this side of the industry?

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00:10:43,665 --> 00:10:43,935
Yeah.

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00:10:45,075 --> 00:10:45,375
Yeah.

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00:10:45,375 --> 00:10:48,465
I'm excited to talk to him about
both of those topics for sure.

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00:10:48,944 --> 00:10:49,965
Especially the burnout topic.

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00:10:50,015 --> 00:10:55,365
I, I think that's, I mean, you know me,
I mean, I'm, I'm always kinda going off

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00:10:55,365 --> 00:10:59,595
on tangents about mental health and,
and uh, you know, keeping your head

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about you in this industry cuz it, it
can, can definitely drive you crazy.

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00:11:02,780 --> 00:11:07,215
So I'm really anxious to talk to him about
his experience with, with burnout and

244
00:11:07,215 --> 00:11:11,495
how he, you know, took some time off and
came back and recharged his batteries.

245
00:11:11,595 --> 00:11:14,955
I mean, I think that's something
that probably everybody after, you

246
00:11:14,955 --> 00:11:18,194
know, probably true of any industry
or career, but, uh, something that

247
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,185
probably everybody can, can relate
to, to some degree or another.

248
00:11:22,395 --> 00:11:23,295
I know I can for sure.

249
00:11:23,865 --> 00:11:24,555
Oh yeah, yeah.

250
00:11:24,555 --> 00:11:25,155
Me as well.

251
00:11:25,995 --> 00:11:26,285
Yeah.

252
00:11:26,865 --> 00:11:31,995
You, uh, I, I definitely want to do
like a, a, a serious like mental health

253
00:11:31,995 --> 00:11:36,765
episode, but I think this will be a
good primer leading up to that as well.

254
00:11:37,305 --> 00:11:38,175
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

255
00:11:38,175 --> 00:11:38,505
For sure.

256
00:11:39,314 --> 00:11:41,535
All right, well, uh, let's bring him on.

257
00:11:41,805 --> 00:11:41,895
All

258
00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:43,245
right, here we are.

259
00:11:43,245 --> 00:11:44,325
We've got Shane Deford.

260
00:11:44,330 --> 00:11:44,985
Shane, welcome.

261
00:11:45,405 --> 00:11:46,125
How are you

262
00:11:46,125 --> 00:11:46,425
today?

263
00:11:46,665 --> 00:11:47,444
I'm good, thanks.

264
00:11:47,475 --> 00:11:47,625
Yeah.

265
00:11:47,625 --> 00:11:48,285
Good to be here.

266
00:11:48,885 --> 00:11:49,365
Awesome.

267
00:11:49,455 --> 00:11:53,385
Thanks for asking me on the,
uh, on this podcast, Mike.

268
00:11:53,415 --> 00:11:53,745
Well, I've

269
00:11:53,745 --> 00:11:54,435
been, I've been geeking You

270
00:11:54,435 --> 00:11:56,415
gotta set 'em up a little
better than that, dude.

271
00:11:56,505 --> 00:11:56,985
Come on now.

272
00:11:58,545 --> 00:12:00,135
I don't normally do the intros, man.

273
00:12:00,140 --> 00:12:02,385
I don't Yeah, right on the spot.

274
00:12:03,015 --> 00:12:07,065
I, I just, I just like, I did the, the
lead up to him before we brought 'em

275
00:12:07,065 --> 00:12:08,235
on, so maybe you should do the intro.

276
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:09,095
We just gotta warm up.

277
00:12:09,155 --> 00:12:10,055
We just gotta warm up.

278
00:12:10,165 --> 00:12:10,455
Yeah.

279
00:12:10,935 --> 00:12:11,985
A couple takes practice.

280
00:12:12,495 --> 00:12:14,025
No, without a doubt.

281
00:12:14,145 --> 00:12:16,125
Shane really doesn't
need any introduction.

282
00:12:16,155 --> 00:12:20,145
If you don't know his name, you've seen
his work a hundred different places.

283
00:12:21,015 --> 00:12:25,575
We were saying before we jumped on
with you, Shane, that like the work

284
00:12:25,605 --> 00:12:30,405
that you do is like some of the, like
the work that we got into the industry

285
00:12:30,405 --> 00:12:35,745
to do, like the really beautiful
carved signage that kind of blends

286
00:12:36,045 --> 00:12:38,475
art and commerce at the same time.

287
00:12:39,165 --> 00:12:39,315
Mm-hmm.

288
00:12:39,615 --> 00:12:40,365
How, how was that?

289
00:12:40,365 --> 00:12:40,935
Was that solid?

290
00:12:41,315 --> 00:12:42,106
Yeah, that's good.

291
00:12:42,111 --> 00:12:43,065
That okay?

292
00:12:43,065 --> 00:12:46,515
Pretty much No, that I'm just
writing up my workshop here.

293
00:12:46,515 --> 00:12:51,510
And that was, Basically what define
what sign makers should be so problem

294
00:12:51,510 --> 00:12:54,270
solving with our full solutions.

295
00:12:54,270 --> 00:12:55,500
So yeah.

296
00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:56,160
You you got it.

297
00:12:56,220 --> 00:12:56,580
Nailed it.

298
00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:58,050
Perfect.

299
00:12:58,050 --> 00:13:01,980
Well, uh, for those who may not be
familiar with you, why don't you kind

300
00:13:01,980 --> 00:13:03,990
of go into your backstory a little bit?

301
00:13:05,340 --> 00:13:09,540
Well, I was, um, I started
in 81, 82 as a sign writer.

302
00:13:09,540 --> 00:13:13,080
I went to George Brown College
for sign writing, and I was a

303
00:13:13,085 --> 00:13:14,670
sign writer for eight years.

304
00:13:14,730 --> 00:13:18,300
And, you know, just plywood
signs, trucks, everything.

305
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:19,980
And I was okay.

306
00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:21,720
I, I was a little bored with my work.

307
00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:23,130
Uh, I felt I was stuck.

308
00:13:23,220 --> 00:13:25,680
And to be honest, I was
going to leave the industry,

309
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:27,090
especially when plotters came on.

310
00:13:27,090 --> 00:13:28,590
I thought, okay, that's it for me.

311
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:33,210
And then I met a mentor who's a,
a designer and a branding person,

312
00:13:33,780 --> 00:13:36,240
and he said, so I'll help you out.

313
00:13:36,245 --> 00:13:36,960
I'll mentor you.

314
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:42,330
And so for the next five years I
stayed, I opened up a studio in Crear

315
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,860
and, um, He taught me everything I
need to know about color marketing,

316
00:13:46,860 --> 00:13:52,830
branding, design, and then I, you know,
taught myself how to carve at the same

317
00:13:52,830 --> 00:13:55,140
time, and it just, things switched.

318
00:13:55,140 --> 00:13:56,790
It was just like a, a switch.

319
00:13:57,390 --> 00:14:01,380
It just changed everything, changed
the work, changed my clients, and

320
00:14:01,380 --> 00:14:07,020
it just, um, it just showed me the
road to the never ending journey of

321
00:14:07,020 --> 00:14:09,150
learning and improving and striving.

322
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,160
So I I, I'm curious about that,
Shane, you said that it kind of,

323
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,830
kind of switched your outlook
on, on the industry in general.

324
00:14:17,190 --> 00:14:21,060
What, I mean, I think we can all take
a guess, but going from like just, you

325
00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:25,680
know, flat pain and, you know, sight
signs and truck doors to the stuff that

326
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,660
you do, that, I, I don't think it's an
exaggeration to call it art, works of art.

327
00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:34,650
I mean, these are, these, these
definitely take signage to an

328
00:14:34,650 --> 00:14:36,690
elevated level that you rarely see.

329
00:14:37,020 --> 00:14:40,020
Was it just that it became a better
creative outlet for you or what.

330
00:14:40,485 --> 00:14:43,635
And it was more fulfilling or, or what,
what changed that, that made you enjoy it

331
00:14:43,635 --> 00:14:43,815
again?

332
00:14:43,815 --> 00:14:48,855
Yeah, I think it is shifted my
mind how I approached design and

333
00:14:48,855 --> 00:14:50,115
approached the sign industry.

334
00:14:50,115 --> 00:14:55,095
You know, I was very much a sign writer
and a sign link, and I learned, uh,

335
00:14:55,100 --> 00:15:01,215
through the mentoring is that if I changed
the perception of sign making, so if I had

336
00:15:01,215 --> 00:15:07,065
someone come into my shop, I, I would, uh,
I was, everything that represented sign

337
00:15:07,065 --> 00:15:11,145
making, I, I was not, for instance, my
business cards looked like banker's cards.

338
00:15:11,145 --> 00:15:15,405
My front room looked like a,
a, a studio as an art studio.

339
00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:18,825
So everything, it was changing
the perception of writers.

340
00:15:19,575 --> 00:15:24,615
And so through a series of process, I
would, could educate my client and get.

341
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:28,530
And get them to, to invest
more in the product.

342
00:15:28,530 --> 00:15:31,860
So, and what I would do is
say, yeah, I, I can do that.

343
00:15:31,860 --> 00:15:34,020
I had no idea how to do these things.

344
00:15:34,020 --> 00:15:37,740
I just, I'll figure out how, how
I, someone says like throwing a

345
00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:41,290
hat or a fence and I just kept
changing my hat or the fence and I

346
00:15:42,630 --> 00:15:47,490
just had the right people coming in
my door and it was easy for them.

347
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:51,420
Once they were educated, they could
see it was a great investment.

348
00:15:51,425 --> 00:15:56,040
And rather than selling, I would, I
would just educate them and they'd say,

349
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,780
well, I wanna spend this amount of money.

350
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,960
And it was it, it was effortless that way.

351
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,235
And then, After that it was up
to me to perform and to develop

352
00:16:05,235 --> 00:16:10,305
my design skills and my sense of
color and shadow and all the rest.

353
00:16:10,305 --> 00:16:11,805
And it was a learning curve for sure.

354
00:16:12,015 --> 00:16:13,005
Do you remember like,

355
00:16:13,010 --> 00:16:18,705
what the, like the do like one of
the first, or like second projects

356
00:16:18,705 --> 00:16:23,115
that you did, like going from
like sign writing into actually

357
00:16:23,115 --> 00:16:25,185
like carved like high end stuff?

358
00:16:25,185 --> 00:16:26,355
Was that, do you Yeah.

359
00:16:26,355 --> 00:16:27,645
Are there any that stick out to you?

360
00:16:28,005 --> 00:16:31,125
Well, my sign was the first one and
I had to re carve it three or four

361
00:16:31,125 --> 00:16:34,185
times cause it was crap the begin.

362
00:16:34,875 --> 00:16:37,335
So every time I looked at it
like, I could do better now.

363
00:16:37,335 --> 00:16:41,805
So yeah, it was, um, I remember my
first high relief carving because

364
00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:45,225
it, I used a book called High
Relief Carving, I forget his name.

365
00:16:45,225 --> 00:16:48,585
But anyways, I thought, okay,
this, this should work out.

366
00:16:48,855 --> 00:16:52,425
And yeah, it was very fussy, overworked,
you know, I had lots to learn.

367
00:16:52,425 --> 00:16:53,944
I was very tight looking work.

368
00:16:54,525 --> 00:16:59,895
Uh, I was young too, and, and I was
just, the, the learning curve was

369
00:16:59,895 --> 00:17:05,160
steep, but, Yeah, it's, it took a
while for me to grow into that part.

370
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,130
You know, I have a lot of work
that doesn't look very good.

371
00:17:08,670 --> 00:17:09,270
It's okay.

372
00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:12,150
So I look at that once in a while.

373
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:13,230
I think that's good.

374
00:17:13,230 --> 00:17:15,300
You know, it's like follow
a journey, you know?

375
00:17:15,305 --> 00:17:19,310
It's really about adopting this
process that just allows me to,

376
00:17:19,950 --> 00:17:21,300
it's like a revealing process.

377
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:24,390
It allows me to keep to,
it's like removing what's

378
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:26,400
not necessary, if that makes

379
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:26,730
sense.

380
00:17:26,735 --> 00:17:28,200
That, that, that's interesting.

381
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:28,740
If you.

382
00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:33,630
I, I was studying, I, I went back through
your Instagram page and your website, kind

383
00:17:33,630 --> 00:17:37,590
of studying some of your work the other
day to prepare for a conversation today.

384
00:17:38,190 --> 00:17:40,650
And that's, that's an interesting
take on it, removing what

385
00:17:40,650 --> 00:17:41,370
doesn't need to be there.

386
00:17:41,370 --> 00:17:44,460
And I, I think that something that
all sign designers probably struggle

387
00:17:44,460 --> 00:17:48,060
with to, to one degree or another
is, is, is the art of restraint and,

388
00:17:48,690 --> 00:17:50,760
you know, where, what do we remove?

389
00:17:51,180 --> 00:17:53,820
What, you know, what, what do we
take away from this to, to get the

390
00:17:53,820 --> 00:17:56,730
point across without it looking, you
know, tacky or over rot or whatever.

391
00:17:57,060 --> 00:17:57,150
Mm-hmm.

392
00:17:57,390 --> 00:18:02,070
Um, and, and your, your work, I think
more than just about anybody else's,

393
00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:05,130
I've seen definitely strikes a balance
between what's there and what's not

394
00:18:05,130 --> 00:18:09,480
there and, and, and, and what color is
present and what color is not there.

395
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,650
I mean, you use a lot of monotone, you
know, color schemes or color tone on tone

396
00:18:13,655 --> 00:18:19,230
and, and, and you use a lot of shadow to
create color, for lack of a better term.

397
00:18:19,235 --> 00:18:22,890
That, and it's, it really, I
mean, I think it, it's strikes

398
00:18:22,890 --> 00:18:26,190
you especially, it strikes me as
a designer anyway, to see how.

399
00:18:27,090 --> 00:18:30,270
Simple and clean, and I'm not
try trying to get the right,

400
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:32,190
I'm, I'm not doing it justice.

401
00:18:32,190 --> 00:18:33,810
There's like, there's a
word I'm looking for here.

402
00:18:34,140 --> 00:18:36,750
Just, just very restrained, I guess.

403
00:18:36,750 --> 00:18:40,320
I mean, your, your designs are incredibly
restrained and yet they're, they work

404
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,381
so well and it's, it's interesting to
see how, how you've accomplished that.

405
00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:44,970
That is interesting.

406
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:45,420
Yeah.

407
00:18:45,420 --> 00:18:51,120
I, um, one of the first things this mentor
told me was, it's always about one thing.

408
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:55,230
You have one thing going on the
sign and it's like everything

409
00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:56,700
else is in support of that.

410
00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:57,660
It's like an orchestra.

411
00:18:57,660 --> 00:19:00,870
There's a main theme to
the, to the, to the piece.

412
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,330
Everything else is in support of that.

413
00:19:03,335 --> 00:19:07,950
So, um, that was a, that
alone was a huge lesson.

414
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:13,350
And then when building approaching
design, I build a criteria.

415
00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:14,400
So it's, it's storage.

416
00:19:14,405 --> 00:19:16,710
So I gather as much
information as possible.

417
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,290
Uh, everything, even I don't analyze
it or, or think of design at the point

418
00:19:22,290 --> 00:19:24,645
I just, I'm searching and gathering.

419
00:19:24,735 --> 00:19:29,745
And then from that list I'll take a,
I'll build a criteria, all the key

420
00:19:29,745 --> 00:19:34,965
points that describe that, that business,
that person, you know, it's things

421
00:19:34,965 --> 00:19:38,175
about where they wanna be, what kind
of traffic is going by the door, the

422
00:19:38,175 --> 00:19:41,895
architecture, their, their building,
the history of that, history of them.

423
00:19:42,344 --> 00:19:43,754
So all of it just goes right.

424
00:19:43,754 --> 00:19:47,235
It's like, it's like putting all
these ingredients into a recipe

425
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,064
and it gets distilled down.

426
00:19:49,064 --> 00:19:52,514
It's gets boiled down
to the, it's essence.

427
00:19:53,084 --> 00:19:57,945
So anytime I'm designing, I'll just
create, I'll look for that one thread

428
00:19:57,975 --> 00:19:59,774
that runs through the whole design.

429
00:20:00,254 --> 00:20:04,034
And of course I'll take into consideration
where it's going because it should

430
00:20:04,034 --> 00:20:08,985
become part of the building or its
surroundings and that's what gives it,

431
00:20:08,985 --> 00:20:10,995
its grounding and a sense of belonging.

432
00:20:11,685 --> 00:20:14,955
So after that, anything I'm
designing or, or something, I

433
00:20:14,955 --> 00:20:16,514
try to keep my mind out of it.

434
00:20:16,514 --> 00:20:19,034
I don't think it through, I
just kind of feel it alone.

435
00:20:19,784 --> 00:20:19,905
I.

436
00:20:20,055 --> 00:20:25,605
Something that just comes up, pops up a
picture or an idea, and I'll put it in.

437
00:20:25,635 --> 00:20:27,105
I won't question it, I'll just put it in.

438
00:20:27,165 --> 00:20:34,905
And how I cross reference that is, does it
visually, does it align with the criteria?

439
00:20:35,235 --> 00:20:39,195
For instance, if it's a, a shop that
sells leather chairs, does it feel

440
00:20:39,195 --> 00:20:42,915
like it would be part of the chair,
for instance, as it, because colors and

441
00:20:42,915 --> 00:20:44,835
designs and shapes are all emotional.

442
00:20:45,405 --> 00:20:50,145
So what I try to do with the signs is
to communicate in an emotional way.

443
00:20:50,145 --> 00:20:54,405
So it was there, they're essentially
visual cues and they have to

444
00:20:54,410 --> 00:20:55,515
line up with this criteria.

445
00:20:55,515 --> 00:21:00,105
So basically the criteria drives
the design as opposed to me

446
00:21:00,675 --> 00:21:02,085
thinking what it should be.

447
00:21:02,145 --> 00:21:05,115
So I think it's like a
bottom up feel, uh, approach.

448
00:21:05,115 --> 00:21:06,945
Then top down, do you

449
00:21:06,945 --> 00:21:10,725
have this criteria listed out, like at
the start of the process, or are you

450
00:21:10,725 --> 00:21:15,315
like going through and like sketching,
like, okay, like here's the, the main

451
00:21:15,315 --> 00:21:18,915
notes that I want to hit, or is it
just, it's all like up here or in

452
00:21:18,915 --> 00:21:19,215
here?

453
00:21:19,754 --> 00:21:25,334
Yeah, it is heart-centered because,
because, you know, people purchase

454
00:21:25,334 --> 00:21:27,584
85% of our purchases are emotional.

455
00:21:28,064 --> 00:21:31,665
So, and, and visual language
is an emotional language.

456
00:21:31,665 --> 00:21:36,945
So you can, you know, inject
sense of smell and sound and

457
00:21:36,945 --> 00:21:38,864
all these little cues in there.

458
00:21:39,044 --> 00:21:40,574
You don't, it's not a conscious thing.

459
00:21:40,965 --> 00:21:47,024
So when I, when I list this criteria,
I just gather, list the criteria.

460
00:21:47,445 --> 00:21:49,425
I just, the criteria.

461
00:21:49,429 --> 00:21:52,334
It's not, it's not about
what I think or my agenda.

462
00:21:52,340 --> 00:21:54,554
I just list it and then
I just read through it.

463
00:21:54,584 --> 00:21:57,225
I get a feel for this, for this thing.

464
00:21:57,284 --> 00:22:03,854
And, um, and then I just start to
choose components, like, what are

465
00:22:03,915 --> 00:22:06,495
the sign shape, like, where's it
gonna go, how big does it have to be?

466
00:22:06,495 --> 00:22:10,935
So those questions have to be asked, but,
so this criteria just kind of guides it.

467
00:22:10,935 --> 00:22:15,254
There's no, it's like method acting,
you know, you have to learn a,

468
00:22:15,254 --> 00:22:16,574
everything, all the background stuff.

469
00:22:16,574 --> 00:22:21,810
So, When you do, when you are
creating it, it's believable and

470
00:22:21,810 --> 00:22:24,630
it's related closely to the business.

471
00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:29,280
So if someone's driving by or walking
by, they gather so much information

472
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:35,670
from that, such a simple image that
it, it not only just entices people

473
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:39,060
to come in, but it targets the
right clientele for the business.

474
00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:42,600
So, and that's a selling
point to the business as well.

475
00:22:43,740 --> 00:22:48,450
In most, uh, when I people come
into my studio, the conversation

476
00:22:48,450 --> 00:22:49,560
started with, I'm different.

477
00:22:49,565 --> 00:22:52,420
I'm more expensive than anyone,
but this is what you're gonna get.

478
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,690
And I'm a designer first and a
sign expert first, and I just

479
00:22:57,690 --> 00:22:59,160
happened to craft my own signs.

480
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,860
But I'm not a signed guy, so to speak.

481
00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:08,070
So right away, and I aligned myself in
the language and the surroundings as.

482
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:10,409
As an architect would.

483
00:23:11,159 --> 00:23:12,659
So their perception has changed.

484
00:23:12,659 --> 00:23:16,260
So if you can change their perception, now
you're having a different conversation,

485
00:23:16,830 --> 00:23:22,889
now you can start talking about what their
investment will be and and educating them.

486
00:23:23,250 --> 00:23:25,110
And sometimes I'll say, you
know, go think about it.

487
00:23:25,679 --> 00:23:27,570
Don't, you don't have
to de decide right now.

488
00:23:27,570 --> 00:23:30,570
It was, I wanted the work, but I never.

489
00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:32,220
Pushed it.

490
00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:35,820
Uh, you know, I just, you know,
go home and think about it and

491
00:23:35,820 --> 00:23:38,250
if you're still interested,
we'll we can make an appointment.

492
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,700
There was never a walk-in
traffic to be my appointment.

493
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:43,210
Yeah, right, right.

494
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:44,410
Just a little hard to cut.

495
00:23:44,970 --> 00:23:45,960
Yeah, well, exclusive.

496
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,140
So those little exclusive paints
and two, you know, with the signed

497
00:23:49,140 --> 00:23:53,070
company, they, even when I had nothing
and I didn't have any money, I didn't

498
00:23:53,070 --> 00:23:57,450
have any business, I tried to make
my front of my shop look successful.

499
00:23:57,540 --> 00:24:01,980
And I was told years ago that people
with money wanna be part of success.

500
00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:05,700
So it was always psychology involved,
but it was just everything I could

501
00:24:05,705 --> 00:24:09,630
just to not appear as a assigned guy.

502
00:24:10,830 --> 00:24:12,660
That sounds, uh, it
sounds counterintuitive.

503
00:24:12,660 --> 00:24:12,960
No.

504
00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:17,580
Yeah, I, I would say it runs counter
to like, what most of the audience

505
00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:19,770
does is like, Hey, we are sign guys.

506
00:24:19,890 --> 00:24:21,630
Like we need to advertise.

507
00:24:21,635 --> 00:24:25,410
We need like giant channel
letters out front of our shop.

508
00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:30,120
We need like a, a giant showroom with
every single thing that showcases every

509
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:32,370
sign, particular product that we sell.

510
00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:36,330
Uh, so it's, it's interesting to
hear you say things like that.

511
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:41,490
Like, Hey, immediately, like I'm shifting
gears into like, I'm not a signed guy.

512
00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:42,270
Yeah.

513
00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:44,100
And I have to background on that.

514
00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:47,820
You know, I was doing a lot of, uh,
truck lettering and crappy little a

515
00:24:47,820 --> 00:24:49,890
hundred dollars signs with names on it.

516
00:24:49,890 --> 00:24:53,880
And I worked for the ministry Natural
Resources making no dogs on the

517
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,340
beach signs, just so I could be, you
know, I just didn't jump into it.

518
00:24:57,345 --> 00:25:02,190
It was like a concept that I,
I believed in and long, it's

519
00:25:02,190 --> 00:25:05,340
a long game strategy, but it.

520
00:25:05,910 --> 00:25:08,730
Put me into areas that I
wouldn't normally get into.

521
00:25:09,180 --> 00:25:10,560
You know about being a consultant.

522
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,730
I consult with, uh, municipalities
as well and, and streetscape.

523
00:25:14,730 --> 00:25:19,890
And so, yeah, it's, it's a long, it's
not gonna, it doesn't happen overnight,

524
00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:24,690
but, and there was times too where I
would refuse work that would come back

525
00:25:24,690 --> 00:25:29,940
to haunt me if I wouldn't put my name on
anything that was not of quality design.

526
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:31,800
Gotcha.

527
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:36,000
And, and like those projects that you
turned down, were they at points where

528
00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:39,780
like you had enough work coming in
that it, like you could turn that away?

529
00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:40,780
Or was it no painful?

530
00:25:40,980 --> 00:25:43,230
Was it painful at the time
of like, Hey, I, I can really

531
00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:45,270
use this money, but, but I,

532
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,540
it drove my wife crazy
saying, what are you doing?

533
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,510
I said, no, believe me, it's gonna work.

534
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:55,260
Cause sometimes, you know, I
had to, when people come in,

535
00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:57,570
I had to evaluate them too.

536
00:25:57,575 --> 00:25:58,380
Had to parse them.

537
00:25:58,385 --> 00:26:01,320
It was, do you wanna hire me
and do I wanna work for you?

538
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:02,220
They have to get it.

539
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:04,890
If they don't get it, then
it's, It's gonna be an

540
00:26:04,890 --> 00:26:07,110
expensive long process for them.

541
00:26:08,340 --> 00:26:13,200
So I had, yeah, there was times where
I had to refuse the work, but it's like

542
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,290
anything, sacrifices have to be made.

543
00:26:18,530 --> 00:26:23,370
I, I feel like you've just obliterated
every sign guys business model and like

544
00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:25,500
the first 10 minutes here I'm looking.

545
00:26:25,650 --> 00:26:30,300
Well, there is, you know, and that's, it's
the kind of thing if you wanna go into

546
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:35,010
making these types of signs, you know,
for me, I had to be, I had to be creative.

547
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:36,330
I had to always be challenged.

548
00:26:36,330 --> 00:26:38,100
And I, I got bored easy.

549
00:26:39,060 --> 00:26:41,940
But there was a place, you know, some
people command and I said, I, I don't

550
00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:43,530
want all this, I just want a sign.

551
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,340
And I said, it's fine.

552
00:26:44,340 --> 00:26:48,060
I had a, I never said I couldn't or
wouldn't I, I wouldn't turn them away.

553
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:49,890
I would say, here's
someone that could take.

554
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:51,390
Better care of your needs.

555
00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:55,860
And they, you know, wrap people do
wraps and large format printing.

556
00:26:56,130 --> 00:27:00,150
They do that really well, but they could
also have two parts of their business.

557
00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:03,990
They could have a premium
handcrafted business and, you know,

558
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:06,930
the regular stuff that comes in
that, the day job, so to speak.

559
00:27:06,930 --> 00:27:12,660
But there's something, for me, it was
not only challenges me and pushes me,

560
00:27:12,660 --> 00:27:16,380
but also it just gets better clients too.

561
00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:21,810
I find, you know, you're less, less
about price, more about the quality.

562
00:27:22,620 --> 00:27:22,830
Okay.

563
00:27:23,370 --> 00:27:24,600
But that really resonates.

564
00:27:25,950 --> 00:27:27,180
Mike, you look deep in thought.

565
00:27:27,390 --> 00:27:27,570
Yeah,

566
00:27:29,580 --> 00:27:29,960
no, I,

567
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,440
I, um, it looked like some of my clients
that come in the door, it's like, okay,

568
00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:37,740
the are just turning in my head.

569
00:27:37,745 --> 00:27:40,440
I'm like, I'm like thinking, okay,
I've gotta like rewrite all the copies.

570
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:48,330
No, I, I, I mean, I mean, I, I love it.

571
00:27:48,330 --> 00:27:53,520
I think I, I've heard people in
this industry, you know, say, or

572
00:27:53,525 --> 00:27:57,480
may or maybe wonder like, is sign
shop a dirty word or is sign guy?

573
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:58,440
Like, is that a bad thing?

574
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,300
Do we wanna be a sign shop or not?

575
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:06,540
And, and it is really interesting to like,
I mean, you are taking sign shop model

576
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:09,300
and like, just we're talking about fires.

577
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:11,250
I mean, you're just setting a fire to it.

578
00:28:11,250 --> 00:28:17,610
And it's, and I, and I, and I love
it and it's, I, I wish that it, it

579
00:28:17,610 --> 00:28:20,730
was possible for everybody in this
industry to do what you're doing.

580
00:28:20,730 --> 00:28:23,940
I mean, in reality, you know, depending
on the market you're in, in, in your,

581
00:28:23,945 --> 00:28:27,630
your skill level, obviously it's not,
I mean, you, you've got the, you,

582
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:31,320
you've got the toolbox to back up,
you know, being a little choosy on it.

583
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,690
But it's, it's awesome.

584
00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:36,600
I mean, I'm, I am, I, I am, I'm,
I'm sitting here thinking like, how,

585
00:28:36,605 --> 00:28:38,895
how can I, How can I be like Shane?

586
00:28:40,155 --> 00:28:44,145
Well, you know, I, you
know, I think it can apply.

587
00:28:44,145 --> 00:28:46,845
I had a lot of guys come to my workshops.

588
00:28:46,845 --> 00:28:50,265
I had CNC machines and they, I
didn't abandon the sign crafting.

589
00:28:50,295 --> 00:28:52,155
I just, I just wanted to appear.

590
00:28:52,155 --> 00:28:56,625
That sign crafting was not some guy
in the back corner when I started out.

591
00:28:56,775 --> 00:28:59,325
You know, they'd said, pull
this, don't drink on the job.

592
00:28:59,325 --> 00:29:01,215
Cuz that's what Signwriter do.

593
00:29:02,155 --> 00:29:06,375
And, and so it was like lifting the
craft cuz on my sign I said, you

594
00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:07,935
know, Shane Erford sign crafter.

595
00:29:07,935 --> 00:29:10,995
And it was a, it was
like a, an honored craft.

596
00:29:11,315 --> 00:29:14,355
And, but that had to change
perceptions with people.

597
00:29:14,385 --> 00:29:18,105
But even if you any sign shop that
does any type of work, it's the same

598
00:29:18,105 --> 00:29:23,055
approach in the way of, I'm a designer
first, I'm a sign expert and I, you

599
00:29:23,055 --> 00:29:27,015
don't tell me what you want because
that's not letting me do my job.

600
00:29:27,165 --> 00:29:29,475
You tell me everything about
your business and I'll.

601
00:29:29,930 --> 00:29:34,740
And I'll bring it in and I'll turn around
and I'll give you the de design you need

602
00:29:34,740 --> 00:29:36,960
so that, that's a whole switch around.

603
00:29:36,990 --> 00:29:40,379
Because I know a lot of sign shops
and myself, I get frustrated.

604
00:29:40,379 --> 00:29:42,030
People come in and this is what I want.

605
00:29:42,035 --> 00:29:44,460
I saw this down the road,
I like this other thing.

606
00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:46,560
So you create this
Frankenstein, so to speak.

607
00:29:46,860 --> 00:29:47,940
Clients not happy.

608
00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:48,810
You're not happy.

609
00:29:49,010 --> 00:29:51,750
And they tend to be, they
don't really value what you do.

610
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:54,900
So they're crapping about money
in the bottom line all the time.

611
00:29:55,710 --> 00:29:59,430
And instead of coming back at
it, turning it, reverse the flow

612
00:29:59,430 --> 00:30:01,200
and said, I'm a signed expert.

613
00:30:01,620 --> 00:30:05,879
So that changes everything and, and
educate why that's important and what.

614
00:30:06,150 --> 00:30:07,950
What value they get it out of that.

615
00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:08,320
Yeah.

616
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,160
You can say, you can go to a shop
and they, you tell 'em what you want

617
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,990
and God bless, but this is why I how
I do it, and this is why I do it.

618
00:30:16,410 --> 00:30:22,830
So whether it's a wrap or any kind
of signage, it is design oriented.

619
00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:27,600
You know, I, I feel like maybe you're
not really backing away from the idea of

620
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,710
being a sign maker or a signwriter or sign
painter or whatever you wanna call it.

621
00:30:31,780 --> 00:30:32,000
Mm.

622
00:30:32,250 --> 00:30:35,040
I kind of feel like you're just
sort of pushing that title back to

623
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,600
what it used to be and what it Yeah.

624
00:30:36,660 --> 00:30:37,410
What it should be.

625
00:30:37,410 --> 00:30:38,640
You know, it's not like
you're changing it.

626
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,870
You're, I, you know, I would argue the,
probably the vinyl slingers out there

627
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:46,650
maybe are the ones that have say that.

628
00:30:46,770 --> 00:30:49,620
I don't mean that in a bad way
against them, but, you know,

629
00:30:49,620 --> 00:30:50,460
I, but you know what I mean,

630
00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:51,900
like, you know, read the room.

631
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:52,650
Mike, read

632
00:30:52,655 --> 00:30:52,740
the

633
00:30:52,740 --> 00:30:53,130
room.

634
00:30:54,030 --> 00:30:54,720
No, I don't care.

635
00:30:54,810 --> 00:30:55,660
I mean, I've been there.

636
00:30:55,850 --> 00:31:00,340
I've, I've, look, I've sl I have,
I have flung my share of vinyl.

637
00:31:01,380 --> 00:31:06,330
And polluted our visual world
more than I ever should have.

638
00:31:06,330 --> 00:31:07,830
And I, I'm the first, yeah.

639
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,510
I'm the, I'm the first one to admit that.

640
00:31:09,510 --> 00:31:11,670
And anybody in this industry
who's been doing this long enough

641
00:31:11,670 --> 00:31:13,740
needs to be humble enough to
step back and say, you know what?

642
00:31:13,950 --> 00:31:16,830
This isn't where I thought I
was gonna go with this and this.

643
00:31:16,835 --> 00:31:19,830
You know, I'm not doing the type of work
that I wanted to do, and I'm, I'm not the

644
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:21,690
type of sign maker that I wanted to be.

645
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,670
And I think Shane's attitude here,
or, or outlook on it, I think is the

646
00:31:26,670 --> 00:31:30,930
reason that he is doing, you know, the
type of work that we all wish we were.

647
00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:36,690
I'm gonna get on the soapbox a minute
and say like, I think a lot of it is

648
00:31:36,690 --> 00:31:42,660
driven by the equipment and like the, the
technology and like the manufacturers.

649
00:31:42,930 --> 00:31:45,120
It's like, Hey, how fast can you print?

650
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,650
How wide can you print?

651
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,740
Like, you know, a lot
of it is driven by that.

652
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:50,190
Totally.

653
00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:54,150
And, and just cost mean I've been
equipment being stupid cheap compared

654
00:31:54,150 --> 00:31:55,021
to what it used to be as well.

655
00:31:55,026 --> 00:31:56,160
Where, yeah.

656
00:31:56,580 --> 00:31:59,370
Like, and it's all we test that on.

657
00:31:59,370 --> 00:31:59,610
Yeah.

658
00:31:59,610 --> 00:32:00,010
It's all about the

659
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,490
payment price.

660
00:32:01,590 --> 00:32:02,010
Mm-hmm.

661
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:02,530
Yeah.

662
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:06,330
Or the equipment being so stupid expensive
that now you feel beholden to it and

663
00:32:06,330 --> 00:32:10,050
you've got to, you know, churn out
vinyl by the pound or crappy banners

664
00:32:10,050 --> 00:32:12,030
and, you know, stickers all day long.

665
00:32:12,035 --> 00:32:15,180
Just just to make your, you know, your
payment on the printer every month.

666
00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:16,800
I mean, you know, we've
all been there too.

667
00:32:17,130 --> 00:32:21,570
And then that suddenly you're like,
you're working for the printer leasing

668
00:32:21,570 --> 00:32:25,560
company and trying to pay that thing off
instead of making signs that you wanna

669
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,230
make, you know, I mean, I, I, and then so

670
00:32:28,470 --> 00:32:31,110
comes along with a faster
machine or a better machine.

671
00:32:31,110 --> 00:32:36,330
And, you know, I think it too, I think
people are, are shops, you know, if

672
00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:42,390
they're tired of just losing jobs or
people shopping for the lowest price

673
00:32:42,810 --> 00:32:46,770
and they all look the same, you know, I
heard Tom mention that it's just all in

674
00:32:46,775 --> 00:32:51,930
the mud, you know, it's just trying to
grab, grab the best fruit off the truck.

675
00:32:52,150 --> 00:32:53,251
But I think if.

676
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:59,490
Even a vi like I had, there's
nothing wrong cuz I'm a sign crafter.

677
00:33:00,090 --> 00:33:03,990
You're straight through, you know, man
laddering carving, but I have nothing

678
00:33:03,995 --> 00:33:06,210
against vinyl or C n C machines.

679
00:33:06,210 --> 00:33:10,350
But you're right, it if they tend to lean
on that too heavily, it's just a tool.

680
00:33:10,980 --> 00:33:15,810
The designs first just design to the
criteria designed to the business,

681
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,160
adds value to their design, which
adds value to the signs sign what

682
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,060
adds value to their business, and
they start to rise above the rest.

683
00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:27,690
It's like, yeah, okay, you could, everyone
else has CNC machines, everyone else

684
00:33:27,690 --> 00:33:31,920
has vinyl cutters, but we are designed
and we're going to make you money

685
00:33:32,250 --> 00:33:34,470
by having you invest in our company.

686
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:39,120
And the fact that we are designers,
not just pretty, not pretty, but

687
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:45,540
strategic connective design that
will the psychology of design.

688
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:48,630
So yeah, that's, that's not a big reach.

689
00:33:49,185 --> 00:33:53,415
You know, I, I think it's a good
business model for most sign shops,

690
00:33:53,655 --> 00:33:55,784
regardless how they do their work.

691
00:33:56,205 --> 00:33:58,965
Cuz it doesn't matter how anyone does it.

692
00:33:58,965 --> 00:34:01,574
It's, I know you guys, uh, agree.

693
00:34:01,574 --> 00:34:03,105
It's, it's all about the design.

694
00:34:04,905 --> 00:34:05,385
Absolutely.

695
00:34:05,385 --> 00:34:05,595
Yeah.

696
00:34:05,595 --> 00:34:06,074
Absolutely.

697
00:34:06,135 --> 00:34:08,745
There's definitely a lot of shops out
there that just have a vinyl cutter or

698
00:34:08,745 --> 00:34:12,554
wide format printer that are producing
absolutely phenomenal, mind-blowing,

699
00:34:12,554 --> 00:34:16,275
beautiful work that is designed, you
know, designed first, designed forward.

700
00:34:16,395 --> 00:34:16,485
Mm-hmm.

701
00:34:16,784 --> 00:34:17,304
So, yeah.

702
00:34:17,310 --> 00:34:17,625
Yeah.

703
00:34:17,625 --> 00:34:20,114
I mean, I agree totally on that.

704
00:34:20,715 --> 00:34:20,985
Okay.

705
00:34:20,985 --> 00:34:27,795
So, plugging along, you're making your
signs, eventually you hit a wall, right?

706
00:34:27,795 --> 00:34:29,985
I mean, you, you stepped away from
the industry for a little while.

707
00:34:30,975 --> 00:34:31,455
Yeah.

708
00:34:31,455 --> 00:34:36,045
You know, that's, uh,
I worked all the time.

709
00:34:36,045 --> 00:34:37,185
I, I mean, I loved it.

710
00:34:37,590 --> 00:34:40,139
I mentioned to Bryant before, I said,
I get up at three in the morning.

711
00:34:40,139 --> 00:34:41,370
I was like, you know, I'm gonna work.

712
00:34:41,690 --> 00:34:45,840
I, I have some, or I would fall asleep
and a design would pop in my, I'm

713
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,250
gonna go down there and make that.

714
00:34:47,909 --> 00:34:52,560
And many times I'd work around the
clock and I loved what I did and I

715
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,480
had a young family, two buildings
and, and renovating and, you know,

716
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,220
I'd have to be honest, a bad marriage.

717
00:34:59,250 --> 00:35:04,590
And I just thought if I just work
harder, longer, things can get

718
00:35:04,590 --> 00:35:06,060
through the other side of it.

719
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:09,220
You know,

720
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:10,950
you hit me right in the heart.

721
00:35:12,750 --> 00:35:14,010
Unbelievably familiar.

722
00:35:14,310 --> 00:35:14,730
Yeah.

723
00:35:14,730 --> 00:35:17,910
That, and then I just feel it coming.

724
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:21,180
I felt that it was just my
bone marrow was being, my life.

725
00:35:21,180 --> 00:35:22,530
Energy was leaving me.

726
00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:25,380
And I was doing workshops
and I was still designing.

727
00:35:25,380 --> 00:35:28,050
It was like I was not
connected to myself anymore.

728
00:35:28,050 --> 00:35:33,255
So I, I think, um, One
day, I, I came in the shop.

729
00:35:33,255 --> 00:35:33,975
I couldn't do it anymore.

730
00:35:33,975 --> 00:35:35,174
I couldn't pick up my tools.

731
00:35:35,205 --> 00:35:36,855
It was the strangest phenomenon.

732
00:35:36,855 --> 00:35:37,605
I just stood there.

733
00:35:37,605 --> 00:35:38,295
I said, I can't.

734
00:35:38,924 --> 00:35:44,595
So I, I just, same day I ended, said,
I don't wanna be married anymore.

735
00:35:44,595 --> 00:35:45,855
I don't wanna do this anymore.

736
00:35:45,855 --> 00:35:47,845
I was like, I'm just, I'm just toast.

737
00:35:48,165 --> 00:35:51,345
So it, that was tough.

738
00:35:51,404 --> 00:35:52,725
That was a hard wall to hit.

739
00:35:52,725 --> 00:35:54,404
And it's a cautionary tale.

740
00:35:55,395 --> 00:35:58,904
And I, you know, I was gonna go off
and be a cop, do something different.

741
00:35:59,415 --> 00:36:02,865
That was my plan, only because I
just couldn't do the work anymore.

742
00:36:03,105 --> 00:36:04,275
Nothing wrong at work.

743
00:36:04,275 --> 00:36:05,365
I was, business was great.

744
00:36:06,384 --> 00:36:09,285
Um, it was going exactly
where I wanted to go.

745
00:36:09,884 --> 00:36:15,555
Uh, but it just, yeah, I just, I had
nothing, nothing, nothing in the gas tank.

746
00:36:15,555 --> 00:36:18,015
So, yeah, I just took hiatus.

747
00:36:18,015 --> 00:36:19,665
I thought, you know, I'll
give it a bit of time.

748
00:36:19,665 --> 00:36:25,516
I'll come back to sign crafting
and it's, I did one last year.

749
00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:29,850
Uh, I designed it and they
couldn't find someone to make it.

750
00:36:29,850 --> 00:36:31,110
So I thought, ah, I'll make it.

751
00:36:31,740 --> 00:36:33,090
And it was, it was tough.

752
00:36:33,150 --> 00:36:36,700
It was like swallowing
glass, to be honest.

753
00:36:39,270 --> 00:36:42,541
But, you know, I stood at the end of
it, I thought, oh my God, I love this.

754
00:36:42,820 --> 00:36:44,640
I love sign making.

755
00:36:44,645 --> 00:36:49,740
I love the whole idea that having
something draw it from their

756
00:36:49,740 --> 00:36:52,830
stuff and form out of thin air.

757
00:36:52,835 --> 00:36:57,480
And there it is in three dimension,
interacting with the landscape and people

758
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,760
and yeah, there's nothing like it really.

759
00:36:59,910 --> 00:37:05,610
It's, it brings in design, psychology,
you know, environmental design, you

760
00:37:05,610 --> 00:37:07,110
know, have to bring in so much knowledge.

761
00:37:07,110 --> 00:37:12,300
You know, I've learned about so many
things cuz every job I do, the design

762
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:14,640
part of the criteria is, is research.

763
00:37:15,150 --> 00:37:18,900
You know, for, if it's an old
building, when was the building built?

764
00:37:18,930 --> 00:37:20,971
How would they have thought
about things back then?

765
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,770
They, they wouldn't have brought
in certain things so, And what

766
00:37:25,770 --> 00:37:28,470
that does is make it look like it.

767
00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:32,190
The sign was established
same time the building was.

768
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:36,840
So, and that's, yeah, so
it, I I love the craft.

769
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:37,500
I really do.

770
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,580
I just burn burnout's.

771
00:37:39,585 --> 00:37:39,870
Not good.

772
00:37:40,170 --> 00:37:42,600
And what, what, what year
did you hit the wall?

773
00:37:43,620 --> 00:37:44,300
2010.

774
00:37:45,490 --> 00:37:45,910
Mm-hmm.

775
00:37:46,110 --> 00:37:46,390
Okay.

776
00:37:46,450 --> 00:37:49,350
And, and you were away
until just last year?

777
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,450
Yeah, pretty much.

778
00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:51,451
Wow.

779
00:37:51,456 --> 00:37:54,330
I did one, I did one, uh, one carving.

780
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,670
But yeah, essentially until last
year, I, I, you know, design logos and

781
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:03,630
package design and the same approach
to all of it, but it just didn't

782
00:38:03,630 --> 00:38:08,910
have the same satisfaction as sign
crafting and working with my hands.

783
00:38:10,050 --> 00:38:10,260
Okay.

784
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,600
So talk to me about the period.

785
00:38:13,350 --> 00:38:16,470
In between like you
were a, a cop for a bit.

786
00:38:17,839 --> 00:38:18,220
No, I did.

787
00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:18,900
I, oh yeah.

788
00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:21,750
Oh, you, I applied, yeah, I applied for
it, but there was hiring freeze on that.

789
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:23,520
Well, that, how am I gonna do now?

790
00:38:23,609 --> 00:38:23,759
Right.

791
00:38:23,765 --> 00:38:24,390
Oh, gotcha.

792
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:31,080
I hung out onto all my equipment
and carving tools and uh, you

793
00:38:31,085 --> 00:38:37,230
know, I, I still studied design,
I still, you know, approach, you

794
00:38:37,230 --> 00:38:40,560
know, package design and, and the
rest, you know, I enjoyed all that.

795
00:38:40,740 --> 00:38:44,279
It was okay, but it just
didn't have that thing.

796
00:38:44,279 --> 00:38:48,690
So I just, I became a better designer,
I think, cuz I still follow that

797
00:38:48,690 --> 00:38:54,960
path of discovery and, and just, you
essentially, you just get, I just,

798
00:38:54,990 --> 00:38:58,920
with good design, it finds you, so
you need just to get out of the way.

799
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:00,540
So I, that was the practice.

800
00:39:00,540 --> 00:39:05,490
So each project that came along was
practicing that and I designed a few

801
00:39:05,495 --> 00:39:12,210
signs as well, so, Yeah, it was, it was
tough because it was so much part of my

802
00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:18,750
life, so much part of my identity and,
and I was, you know, in a community

803
00:39:19,710 --> 00:39:23,790
assigned community and in the small
community where I, I had my business

804
00:39:23,790 --> 00:39:28,290
for 25 years, so it was, yeah, it's
a kinda lost my identity for a while.

805
00:39:29,460 --> 00:39:31,890
I, it resonates with love with the craft.

806
00:39:31,890 --> 00:39:33,390
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

807
00:39:33,390 --> 00:39:35,070
Something love with the craft.

808
00:39:35,070 --> 00:39:35,430
Yeah.

809
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,630
And, and, and it was most frustrating
time of my life cuz something I loved to

810
00:39:39,630 --> 00:39:45,450
do that I could do well and I had such a,
a healthy business, I just couldn't even

811
00:39:45,455 --> 00:39:47,460
look, I couldn't even open my toolbox.

812
00:39:48,570 --> 00:39:52,170
I went to, they asked me to come
in and fill in for someone at the,

813
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:55,410
one of the letterhead meets down
at the Sign museum Cincinnati.

814
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,260
And I was, I had to
show them how to carve.

815
00:39:58,290 --> 00:39:59,130
I didn't wanna do it.

816
00:39:59,220 --> 00:40:01,140
I woke up in the morning,
I said, I can't do this.

817
00:40:01,590 --> 00:40:03,120
I just like, I'll just
tell 'em how to do it.

818
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:07,470
So, but that, you know, that's
how, that's how strong burnout

819
00:40:07,470 --> 00:40:08,760
is when you hit that wall.

820
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:09,960
It's a hard road back.

821
00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:14,160
And I, I think it's for anybody
who, who just, it's imbalance.

822
00:40:14,910 --> 00:40:17,730
And I think the way to fix it is just
kind of swing it, you know, the benzo

823
00:40:17,850 --> 00:40:21,660
has swing back the other way before
it finds its, you know, center again.

824
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:23,250
And what

825
00:40:23,250 --> 00:40:26,790
worked well for you to, to
come back from the burnout?

826
00:40:29,250 --> 00:40:29,850
I think, yeah.

827
00:40:29,850 --> 00:40:34,350
I had to, I had to, for me personally,
I had to get rid of, I had to come to

828
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,240
an understanding about how I came to
burnout and, and let go of the past.

829
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:42,030
You know, I was this, or
I did that or I had this.

830
00:40:42,090 --> 00:40:43,950
And so I had to let all that go.

831
00:40:43,950 --> 00:40:47,130
And it's like, here I am standing
here now and I still love what I do.

832
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:50,011
So I just kind of, and it
with that was that simple.

833
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,880
And I love my sign crafting days.

834
00:40:54,540 --> 00:40:58,200
Not so much, but I'm going more
into carving the same approach to

835
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:04,080
architectural carving, but that
allows me to really go further into

836
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,870
the elaborate work carving and such.

837
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:10,170
But, um, still signs, you
know, designing signs.

838
00:41:10,470 --> 00:41:10,800
Yeah.

839
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,230
I still, I still do that.

840
00:41:13,770 --> 00:41:13,950
Okay.

841
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,330
Do you think there's a way to
avoid burnout or do you think it's

842
00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:22,740
just like part of the process,
uh, like part of the journey?

843
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:24,740
No, I, I think it, yeah, fine.

844
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,260
You know, for me, like I, I don't know
that I, I would be sitting here today

845
00:41:28,265 --> 00:41:32,520
without like, flaming out as hard as
I did back when I was, you know, mid

846
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,560
twenties of working 60, 80 hours a week
and yeah, not taking care of myself and

847
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,750
just burning the candle at both ends.

848
00:41:40,890 --> 00:41:43,200
You know, my dad, I should
have learned from my father.

849
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,550
He was a, had his own iron, iron
shop fabricating iron, and he said,

850
00:41:47,550 --> 00:41:50,190
if I can't make my living nine
to five, then I, I won't do it.

851
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,860
And he always took time to, I.

852
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:54,870
To do other things.

853
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:59,760
I think, you know, as in design, as in
nature, as in life, if we don't, uh,

854
00:41:59,790 --> 00:42:05,880
work towards balance, imbalances will,
something will force us to find, to

855
00:42:05,885 --> 00:42:10,260
go the other way, will, whether it's
health, whether it's emotional health, or

856
00:42:10,260 --> 00:42:17,190
whether it's, whatever it may be, it just
forces you to find centric and it wants

857
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:20,790
to find center so it'll correct itself.

858
00:42:21,330 --> 00:42:22,980
It's usually in harsh ways.

859
00:42:22,980 --> 00:42:28,080
The farther you go, the longer you go,
the more harsh the pullback is on it.

860
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:33,630
So, yeah, it's brutal And uh, you know,
a lot of people thought, what if he,

861
00:42:33,930 --> 00:42:36,660
you know, if I'm leaving the industry,
what does it hold for the rest of us?

862
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:39,810
But I don't think they ever, the
story was ever out there about me

863
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:41,940
burning up personally as I did.

864
00:42:42,270 --> 00:42:43,950
You know, everything basically collapsed.

865
00:42:43,950 --> 00:42:45,810
Marriage, business, everything.

866
00:42:47,650 --> 00:42:51,240
So, yeah, just kind I, you know, I
just jumped out of a moving vehicle.

867
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:52,190
That's what I

868
00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:52,470
did.

869
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:56,590
But hey, I was so loved.

870
00:42:57,150 --> 00:42:59,070
I luck of the craft.

871
00:42:59,610 --> 00:43:03,090
Yeah, I, I mean, if, if the vehicle's
going off the cliff, like what else are

872
00:43:03,095 --> 00:43:04,020
you gonna do at that point, you know what,

873
00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:07,790
I wish I would've heard that Let go.

874
00:43:08,260 --> 00:43:09,600
That could save me some time.

875
00:43:10,620 --> 00:43:10,890
Yeah.

876
00:43:11,010 --> 00:43:11,230
So

877
00:43:11,290 --> 00:43:14,820
in, in hindsight, do you feel like
hitting that wall could have been

878
00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:18,240
preventable or at least you could have
slammed on the brakes earlier so you

879
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:20,040
didn't hit it as hard or Absolutely.

880
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,430
Was it totally inevitable no matter
what you, you could have done?

881
00:43:22,740 --> 00:43:23,040
Was it just

882
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:23,520
gonna happen?

883
00:43:23,940 --> 00:43:29,160
No, I, um, yeah, I could have easily
prevented it by taking more time to,

884
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,680
so I'm not working today, I'm not
at, this are my times and that's it.

885
00:43:34,770 --> 00:43:35,460
Nothing more.

886
00:43:35,460 --> 00:43:40,860
And then balance it with more fun
things, you know, there was a time I

887
00:43:40,860 --> 00:43:42,480
didn't get outta my workloads, I just.

888
00:43:43,335 --> 00:43:47,384
You know, I, at first I had my, we lived
upstairs, my studio was downstairs,

889
00:43:47,384 --> 00:43:50,745
so there was times where I would leave
the building for, for a week at a time.

890
00:43:51,765 --> 00:43:54,975
And yeah, I could have
prevented a lot of that.

891
00:43:54,975 --> 00:44:00,375
Just balance, balance, life
more, exercise, more fun, you

892
00:44:00,375 --> 00:44:01,455
know, work hard, play hard.

893
00:44:02,295 --> 00:44:03,075
I just worked hard.

894
00:44:03,285 --> 00:44:03,765
That's it.

895
00:44:06,404 --> 00:44:06,765
Yeah.

896
00:44:07,335 --> 00:44:11,565
This one, uh, definitely
hits hard for, for me.

897
00:44:11,745 --> 00:44:14,325
I, I'm a notorious workaholic.

898
00:44:14,505 --> 00:44:19,904
I, I, yeah, I, for whatever reason, I
mean, I, it's this weird, like, sadistic

899
00:44:19,904 --> 00:44:24,225
pleasure that I find and just working
and working and working and, um, as I've,

900
00:44:24,255 --> 00:44:29,685
as I've gotten older, I've definitely
tried to, Keep myself off of that path.

901
00:44:29,685 --> 00:44:33,045
And, and, you know, I've experienced
very similar to what you have.

902
00:44:33,045 --> 00:44:33,935
I mean, I, mm-hmm.

903
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:38,655
I hit a wall at 500 miles an
hour and it was, it was tough.

904
00:44:38,835 --> 00:44:41,175
And marriage didn't survive.

905
00:44:42,015 --> 00:44:42,975
Sold the business fortunately.

906
00:44:42,980 --> 00:44:46,005
But burnout's burnout is really tough.

907
00:44:46,545 --> 00:44:49,635
And yeah, I feel like I'm on the
verge of it again, and I'm, and I'm,

908
00:44:49,635 --> 00:44:54,345
I'm like trying to look, look back
and, and, and figure out how to, you

909
00:44:54,345 --> 00:44:56,325
know, how to not have it happen again.

910
00:44:56,325 --> 00:45:00,435
And it's, it's tough because like when
you, when you're, when you do ultimately

911
00:45:00,435 --> 00:45:04,365
enjoy what you do and you are a workaholic
and that work is, is fulfilling to you,

912
00:45:04,365 --> 00:45:07,965
like, it's, it's really hard to look at
that objectively and say, listen, this

913
00:45:07,965 --> 00:45:10,965
is not a, you know, a healthy place
to be and I need to step away from

914
00:45:10,965 --> 00:45:13,635
it, or I need to go do something else.

915
00:45:13,875 --> 00:45:14,175
Yeah.

916
00:45:14,175 --> 00:45:16,515
And that's a tough place to be.

917
00:45:16,515 --> 00:45:20,325
I think for me it was, um, I mean, I
loved what I did and, and everything

918
00:45:20,330 --> 00:45:23,815
else, but there was something else
underneath it was, you know, just.

919
00:45:24,450 --> 00:45:28,200
You always have to look back to
our early beginnings, but my dad

920
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,280
was a workaholic and that's how
you showed love for your family.

921
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,060
That's how what you did for your family
and you just, oh yeah, shit hits a fan.

922
00:45:36,065 --> 00:45:36,930
You just work harder.

923
00:45:36,930 --> 00:45:40,800
So that's a recipe for high
speed collision if there was one.

924
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:40,860
Yeah.

925
00:45:41,650 --> 00:45:41,940
Yeah.

926
00:45:42,270 --> 00:45:46,140
So I think it's just understanding
why we are a workaholics.

927
00:45:46,140 --> 00:45:50,610
You know, some people are alcoholics,
you know, and I was neurotic too.

928
00:45:50,610 --> 00:45:54,120
Part of my thing too, I was very
neurotic when I was lettering science.

929
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,500
The letters had to be perfect.

930
00:45:55,500 --> 00:46:01,380
I spent so much energy worrying about
such details of my work and it, I

931
00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:02,940
had to come to grips with that too.

932
00:46:02,940 --> 00:46:04,590
So, yeah, I think.

933
00:46:05,115 --> 00:46:05,895
Working too hard.

934
00:46:05,895 --> 00:46:09,855
Burnout is us, the end result of
something deeper, something more

935
00:46:09,855 --> 00:46:13,575
profound, because there's something
that doesn't, we know the wall's coming

936
00:46:13,875 --> 00:46:18,495
and we know we're picking up speed,
but some way we say, I don't know.

937
00:46:18,805 --> 00:46:19,545
What did you,

938
00:46:20,845 --> 00:46:21,135
yeah.

939
00:46:21,555 --> 00:46:23,625
If you go, if you go fast
enough, you'll go through it

940
00:46:25,755 --> 00:46:27,945
or you just hoping you
won't hit the wall sometime.

941
00:46:27,945 --> 00:46:28,155
Yeah.

942
00:46:28,545 --> 00:46:28,875
You just,

943
00:46:29,375 --> 00:46:31,035
I, I think that's the
mentality everybody takes.

944
00:46:31,035 --> 00:46:31,365
Okay.

945
00:46:31,365 --> 00:46:32,205
I see that wall coming.

946
00:46:32,205 --> 00:46:34,425
I'm just, I'm just gonna speed
up and hope I just break right

947
00:46:34,425 --> 00:46:35,595
through it and I'll be fine.

948
00:46:35,595 --> 00:46:35,895
Right.

949
00:46:36,195 --> 00:46:36,825
Yeah.

950
00:46:36,825 --> 00:46:37,395
No choice.

951
00:46:37,965 --> 00:46:38,235
Yeah.

952
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:38,475
Yeah.

953
00:46:38,475 --> 00:46:40,665
You know, it's a's kind of, it's a
joke, but I think it's really true.

954
00:46:40,670 --> 00:46:43,065
I mean, and it's, and you're right too.

955
00:46:43,065 --> 00:46:45,915
I mean, I think there's a societal
pressure on, on us that that's

956
00:46:45,915 --> 00:46:49,785
how we have to provide and
that's what, you know, like this.

957
00:46:50,205 --> 00:46:53,865
Subconscious measure of success we have
is how hard we work and how much we work.

958
00:46:53,865 --> 00:46:58,095
And if you, you took a day off,
then you're, you're not successful.

959
00:46:58,095 --> 00:47:01,815
You're not providing for your family,
you're lazy or, or whatever it is.

960
00:47:01,815 --> 00:47:03,345
And it's hard to overcome
that mental block too.

961
00:47:03,350 --> 00:47:06,076
And that's something that I
definitely, you know, struggle with.

962
00:47:06,081 --> 00:47:10,485
And, and, and still too, to this
day, I mean, I'm, I'm getting better

963
00:47:10,485 --> 00:47:12,225
at forcing myself to take days off.

964
00:47:12,225 --> 00:47:15,735
And there are times I come in and sit
down in my office and I, you know, I've

965
00:47:15,735 --> 00:47:19,395
got a stack of signs, I've got a design,
and I, I just, I, I physically, like you

966
00:47:19,395 --> 00:47:20,535
said, you couldn't pick up your tools.

967
00:47:20,535 --> 00:47:22,425
Like sometimes I can't touch that mouse.

968
00:47:22,425 --> 00:47:23,475
Yeah, yeah.

969
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,995
And I just have to get up and,
you know, and, and walk away.

970
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,795
And it's the worst feeling
in the world sometimes It

971
00:47:27,795 --> 00:47:28,065
is.

972
00:47:28,065 --> 00:47:29,745
It's like there's a force field around it.

973
00:47:30,255 --> 00:47:30,675
Yeah.

974
00:47:30,675 --> 00:47:31,425
It's weird.

975
00:47:32,355 --> 00:47:35,880
You just, Yeah, it's like magnetically,
like repelling your hand and it,

976
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,970
and it's, and then it's hard not to
fall down like this hole of kind of

977
00:47:38,970 --> 00:47:40,350
beating yourself over it, you know?

978
00:47:40,350 --> 00:47:42,240
And, and it's a vicious cycle.

979
00:47:42,780 --> 00:47:44,130
I can touch the mouse, Mike.

980
00:47:44,130 --> 00:47:46,380
I just can't, like, I
just stare at the screen.

981
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:47,360
Like, you just kind of move around.

982
00:47:47,780 --> 00:47:51,450
You throw it around and click on stuff
like, oh, hey, hey, here's something.

983
00:47:51,450 --> 00:47:54,300
Let me click on it a hundred times
and just move it around a little.

984
00:47:54,300 --> 00:47:54,360
I'm

985
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:54,600
working,

986
00:47:56,970 --> 00:47:57,480
I know.

987
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,340
I, I'm a, a bagpiper and I knew this,
uh, this guy he played since he was

988
00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:06,180
a kid and he was, you know, grade one
piper and he was always go practicing,

989
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:09,450
practicing until one day he said, my
hands wouldn't, fingers wouldn't move.

990
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:11,790
And it wasn't anything physical.

991
00:48:11,790 --> 00:48:15,000
It was an emotional, it's like
your body's like enough, no more.

992
00:48:15,570 --> 00:48:19,800
You know, it's, it's like, you
know, it's just something says no.

993
00:48:20,010 --> 00:48:25,960
So, and especially when we're younger
and think full of everything and.

994
00:48:27,630 --> 00:48:28,830
And then we just keep going, you know?

995
00:48:28,830 --> 00:48:33,960
And I burnt out small burns along the way,
but once the big one happened, I, I never,

996
00:48:34,020 --> 00:48:35,640
I don't think I ever came back fully.

997
00:48:36,029 --> 00:48:41,220
Like there's something in me that just
kind of blew, blew something and, and it

998
00:48:41,225 --> 00:48:43,980
just didn't get, it just doesn't fit back.

999
00:48:44,220 --> 00:48:44,440
Do,

1000
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:49,770
do you think that you, do you think
that something like broke in you

1001
00:48:49,770 --> 00:48:53,190
when you hit that wall and, and
it just hasn't, can't repair it?

1002
00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:56,730
Or do you think that something
changed in your priorities or

1003
00:48:56,730 --> 00:48:59,279
your outlook changed in, in you?

1004
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:00,779
I think yeah, just approach

1005
00:49:00,785 --> 00:49:01,529
it differently now.

1006
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,721
Bit of both, I think, you know.

1007
00:49:04,740 --> 00:49:05,160
Yeah.

1008
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:08,009
I find, you know, there
was a song by Blue Rodeo.

1009
00:49:08,015 --> 00:49:11,910
It's like, you know, he is basically,
it blew apart and then some of

1010
00:49:11,915 --> 00:49:16,380
the pieces went put, were put back
together, but they were wrong with

1011
00:49:16,380 --> 00:49:18,270
some of them missing, you know?

1012
00:49:18,275 --> 00:49:18,470
Yeah.

1013
00:49:18,569 --> 00:49:22,605
And it's a weird psychological,
um, It's a powerful thing.

1014
00:49:22,694 --> 00:49:25,065
Like I, you think, oh,
burn, well, I get tired.

1015
00:49:25,065 --> 00:49:26,115
You get, you know, exhausted.

1016
00:49:26,115 --> 00:49:27,105
But no idea.

1017
00:49:27,105 --> 00:49:32,115
The emotional toll it takes and you
know, that I couldn't touch my tools.

1018
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:36,134
I, I'd open my tool, but
I really feel nauseous.

1019
00:49:36,319 --> 00:49:37,515
I get such a strong thing.

1020
00:49:37,794 --> 00:49:38,085
Yeah.

1021
00:49:38,464 --> 00:49:40,214
And I just kept pushing.

1022
00:49:40,274 --> 00:49:44,234
And I think it's just, I dunno if
something got broken, I think it

1023
00:49:44,234 --> 00:49:50,865
just, I think, um, you know, if you
pull something out, you know, and

1024
00:49:50,865 --> 00:49:52,815
it, it just won't grow back anymore.

1025
00:49:53,115 --> 00:49:54,464
Like if you just keep mm-hmm.

1026
00:49:54,705 --> 00:49:58,274
For me, if I just, I pushed it and
pushed it and pushed it and once it

1027
00:49:58,274 --> 00:50:00,464
just broke, it just never came back.

1028
00:50:00,734 --> 00:50:01,875
It never regenerated.

1029
00:50:01,875 --> 00:50:04,575
So I feel like there's a piece missing.

1030
00:50:04,580 --> 00:50:08,714
I don't have the same push or drive,
but the love of the craft, but I don't

1031
00:50:08,714 --> 00:50:12,194
have the, the longevity in there.

1032
00:50:12,194 --> 00:50:15,825
I don't, and part of it's too
is like, ah, I just don't, I

1033
00:50:16,125 --> 00:50:17,205
don't wanna do that anymore.

1034
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,360
Yeah, I think for me it was
like the patience was the, the

1035
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,010
part that didn't come back.

1036
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:29,340
Like the, the, the willingness to like
sit down at every minute detail because

1037
00:50:29,345 --> 00:50:35,010
that was, yeah, I used to think that
was part of why the work was great is

1038
00:50:35,010 --> 00:50:37,050
like obsessing over every little detail.

1039
00:50:37,420 --> 00:50:37,640
Uh,

1040
00:50:37,645 --> 00:50:38,370
I hear you.

1041
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,460
You know, that's why I
couldn't sign craft anymore.

1042
00:50:41,460 --> 00:50:44,520
Couldn't make, cuz I'd spent hours,
you know, everything was so crafted

1043
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:49,080
to such a fine touch and I just
didn't have that in me anymore.

1044
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,080
Yeah, it's a strange,
it's a strange phenomenon.

1045
00:50:52,085 --> 00:50:54,990
It's, um, it was gonna some
it's gonna say something.

1046
00:50:54,990 --> 00:50:55,920
I forget what it was.

1047
00:50:55,980 --> 00:50:56,310
It's

1048
00:50:56,310 --> 00:50:59,370
funny you, you're talking about, you
know, I was, I've been thinking just

1049
00:50:59,370 --> 00:51:01,680
about my career here, but Brian, I
mean, you know, I'm in the middle of

1050
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,560
this ridiculous house renovation too.

1051
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:08,490
And, um, Shane Shaney the backstory
here during Covid, my wife and I

1052
00:51:08,490 --> 00:51:13,290
got bored and we bought a fixture
upper house and completely gutted

1053
00:51:13,290 --> 00:51:14,700
it down to the studs and have.

1054
00:51:15,585 --> 00:51:19,455
Are restoring it and renovating it,
and for like nine months straight.

1055
00:51:19,455 --> 00:51:19,964
That's all I did.

1056
00:51:19,964 --> 00:51:23,415
I mean, it was, it was 12, 16 hour
days of this house and it, and it's,

1057
00:51:23,745 --> 00:51:28,575
we're not doing just like a, you
know, like a DIY type flip on it.

1058
00:51:28,605 --> 00:51:29,805
Everything's gray.

1059
00:51:29,835 --> 00:51:32,085
I mean it, like, I, I
handmade all the trim.

1060
00:51:32,535 --> 00:51:37,095
I, I've handcrafted all these beams,
hand laid, all this hardwood floor.

1061
00:51:37,095 --> 00:51:40,935
I mean, every single square inch
house is touched by my hands, but

1062
00:51:40,995 --> 00:51:44,234
nine months of doing it all day, every
day, like eating, breathing, sleeping.

1063
00:51:44,234 --> 00:51:51,000
This house, I hit a wall two years
ago and like, I can barely, I can

1064
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,240
barely bring myself to even, like,
vacuum the house now, let alone

1065
00:51:54,390 --> 00:51:55,770
make it's, it's only half done.

1066
00:51:55,770 --> 00:51:55,950
Right.

1067
00:51:55,950 --> 00:51:56,670
But I just can't, I can't

1068
00:51:56,670 --> 00:51:57,240
do anything on it.

1069
00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:59,100
I think it was so bad, Shane.

1070
00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:01,950
I had to send him, um, do you
remember the, the show home

1071
00:52:01,955 --> 00:52:06,420
improvement with, uh, Tim, the tool
man, Taylor and his assistant Al?

1072
00:52:06,629 --> 00:52:06,810
Yeah.

1073
00:52:07,529 --> 00:52:12,720
I got on, uh, cameo, which is a
service where you can like order videos

1074
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:14,399
from celebrities to your friends.

1075
00:52:14,404 --> 00:52:15,420
It's, it's great fun.

1076
00:52:15,810 --> 00:52:22,140
I ordered a video from Al for
Mike and his wife to give them

1077
00:52:22,140 --> 00:52:24,750
a pep talk about renovating his

1078
00:52:24,750 --> 00:52:25,200
house.

1079
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:26,460
It was, it was the greatest thing too.

1080
00:52:26,460 --> 00:52:28,319
And I, and I, I tell you
what, like I really needed it.

1081
00:52:28,319 --> 00:52:32,250
Like, it was, it was great to hear from
Al Borland in his flannel shirt that like,

1082
00:52:32,250 --> 00:52:35,460
oh my gosh, you know, there was light at
the end of the tunnel and you're gonna

1083
00:52:35,460 --> 00:52:37,680
get there and remodeling is hard, but.

1084
00:52:38,295 --> 00:52:39,404
Yeah, but I mean, it was the same thing.

1085
00:52:39,404 --> 00:52:41,955
I'm, I'm just listening, talk about, you
know, obsessing here of these details and

1086
00:52:41,955 --> 00:52:47,475
like, you know, I must have spent 30, 40,
50 hours driving around trying to find

1087
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,715
just the right type of nail for my floor.

1088
00:52:50,805 --> 00:52:53,325
You know, not even, you know,
let alone actually, you know,

1089
00:52:53,330 --> 00:52:54,315
driving all those nails in.

1090
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,805
And it's, like I said, we just
started painting in front of the

1091
00:52:56,835 --> 00:53:01,335
house and, and we went through 40,
45 different color samples until we

1092
00:53:01,335 --> 00:53:04,545
picked a color that we like and just
obsessing over all these details.

1093
00:53:04,545 --> 00:53:04,546
Yeah.

1094
00:53:04,551 --> 00:53:06,674
And it just, you know,
it, it drives you nuts.

1095
00:53:06,674 --> 00:53:09,225
I think there's point
in talking about that.

1096
00:53:09,225 --> 00:53:15,825
I think there's something to that, you
know, getting so deep in the weeds and

1097
00:53:15,825 --> 00:53:20,055
obsessing over things that nobody else
would even notice, but you, that really

1098
00:53:20,055 --> 00:53:21,945
leads down that path of, of burnout.

1099
00:53:21,945 --> 00:53:24,165
And I, and I think that,
that that obsession.

1100
00:53:25,215 --> 00:53:27,885
I think anybody who's really great
at what they do, ha you know,

1101
00:53:28,215 --> 00:53:31,245
has that obsession or that that
obsessive quality within them.

1102
00:53:31,485 --> 00:53:33,255
And I think it's probably
what makes them great.

1103
00:53:34,155 --> 00:53:36,945
I, it would help me a lot,
as I heard along the way was

1104
00:53:36,945 --> 00:53:38,145
the illusion of perfection.

1105
00:53:38,295 --> 00:53:41,925
You know, there's no such thing as
perfection and that released a lot of

1106
00:53:41,925 --> 00:53:45,735
stuff for me, I think too, part of being
the business sign business, having your

1107
00:53:45,735 --> 00:53:48,135
partner, having like a good partner.

1108
00:53:48,765 --> 00:53:51,375
You know, that was part of my burnout
too, is like I had someone that

1109
00:53:51,380 --> 00:53:56,235
would just like sabotage and, you
know, spend money and, you know,

1110
00:53:56,235 --> 00:53:57,645
I wanted a break in a lot of ways.

1111
00:53:57,645 --> 00:53:58,985
Like I said, I'm re needs.

1112
00:54:00,375 --> 00:54:06,045
I need a break, but so a partner's
big, big deal and a good home life too.

1113
00:54:06,045 --> 00:54:07,275
I mean, it's all connected.

1114
00:54:07,275 --> 00:54:08,775
There's no separation.

1115
00:54:08,895 --> 00:54:09,495
I think signing

1116
00:54:09,795 --> 00:54:10,904
that's a really good point.

1117
00:54:11,025 --> 00:54:13,725
I mean, that's a, this is a difficult
industry and it's an exhausting

1118
00:54:13,725 --> 00:54:17,595
industry and one that takes a lot of
tolls on, on you and, and you know,

1119
00:54:17,595 --> 00:54:21,165
having a spouse or you know, somebody
at home that's supportive of you, or

1120
00:54:21,165 --> 00:54:22,755
if they're actively in that business.

1121
00:54:22,755 --> 00:54:25,065
I mean, you've gotta be working
together towards the same goal.

1122
00:54:25,605 --> 00:54:28,245
And it sounds like you were kind of
in a similar boat as me, where, you

1123
00:54:28,245 --> 00:54:30,945
know, we were definitely not working
in the same direction and constantly

1124
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:34,325
trying to undermine each other and,
and that definitely, I mean, it's,

1125
00:54:34,575 --> 00:54:38,625
it's really hard to do good work when
you're, you know, fighting your own

1126
00:54:38,625 --> 00:54:40,725
internal battles and demons like that.

1127
00:54:41,445 --> 00:54:45,765
It, it just, and it's not conducive
to creative life, a creative life.

1128
00:54:45,770 --> 00:54:46,245
No, it's not.

1129
00:54:46,545 --> 00:54:46,785
No,

1130
00:54:46,985 --> 00:54:47,835
it, it, it's not.

1131
00:54:47,835 --> 00:54:50,955
And it, and it makes, I mean,
come hell or high water, you.

1132
00:54:51,645 --> 00:54:53,475
If you're a creative person,
you're gonna live that life and

1133
00:54:53,475 --> 00:54:54,435
that's what you've gotta pursue.

1134
00:54:54,435 --> 00:54:57,315
And there's no, there's no
way you can get off that path.

1135
00:54:57,315 --> 00:55:00,134
I mean, you know, creative
person can't go work in a factory

1136
00:55:00,140 --> 00:55:01,305
all day long and be satisfied.

1137
00:55:01,305 --> 00:55:02,295
That's just not how it works.

1138
00:55:02,384 --> 00:55:02,444
No.

1139
00:55:02,595 --> 00:55:07,214
So creative person has to be, you know,
pursuing a creative job and, and it's

1140
00:55:07,214 --> 00:55:11,805
so easy to be derailed from that and
everything, just that kind of emotional,

1141
00:55:12,404 --> 00:55:18,404
you know, baggage makes creativity the
part of your brain that, that is creative.

1142
00:55:18,410 --> 00:55:20,384
I mean, it almost makes
it stop functioning

1143
00:55:20,384 --> 00:55:20,475
in

1144
00:55:20,475 --> 00:55:20,924
a way.

1145
00:55:21,315 --> 00:55:21,645
It is.

1146
00:55:21,645 --> 00:55:23,444
It comes from, yeah, that good place.

1147
00:55:23,444 --> 00:55:26,595
You know, I always think creativity
is more of a, a, an allowing.

1148
00:55:26,595 --> 00:55:30,254
So if there's other things, you know,
clamping down on it or heavy sitting

1149
00:55:30,254 --> 00:55:32,325
heavy on it, it's just hard to do.

1150
00:55:32,330 --> 00:55:35,295
And, and that was always in my
amazement when I was still designing.

1151
00:55:35,295 --> 00:55:37,725
I don't know where these designs
are coming from, but, you know,

1152
00:55:37,725 --> 00:55:41,415
I discovered though, and it was
through that process, you know,

1153
00:55:41,415 --> 00:55:44,145
people say, well, you're talented or,
you know, I, you love what you do.

1154
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:46,345
It's like, well, it's
really not comes from me.

1155
00:55:47,295 --> 00:55:48,734
All I do is facilitate.

1156
00:55:49,065 --> 00:55:51,855
The process of coming
through me and I've heard it.

1157
00:55:52,095 --> 00:55:57,975
Others, other authors like novelists
talk about it, music composers and

1158
00:55:57,975 --> 00:56:01,545
many other, and they talk about,
it's just they get out of the way and

1159
00:56:01,550 --> 00:56:03,075
they allow things to come through.

1160
00:56:03,075 --> 00:56:07,245
So even when I was physically and
emotionally and mentally exhausted,

1161
00:56:07,815 --> 00:56:09,225
I still had these designs.

1162
00:56:09,225 --> 00:56:13,875
I was just like, it was as if I
was almost an observer as well.

1163
00:56:13,875 --> 00:56:15,945
But it takes the pressure off.

1164
00:56:16,635 --> 00:56:19,755
But I think it's a good way to think
of design cuz there's no pressure.

1165
00:56:19,755 --> 00:56:24,735
It just set it up so things come
through you and it's basically

1166
00:56:24,735 --> 00:56:27,165
designing from in, in intuition.

1167
00:56:28,155 --> 00:56:28,395
Yeah.

1168
00:56:28,635 --> 00:56:32,505
This is the part that I really wanted
to talk about of like what your creative

1169
00:56:32,510 --> 00:56:34,525
process looks like and just mm-hmm.

1170
00:56:35,115 --> 00:56:38,535
Like how you achieve that, that
flow because it like looking

1171
00:56:38,540 --> 00:56:41,175
at your work, it's easy to see.

1172
00:56:41,180 --> 00:56:46,155
Like, I like if I look at it and I try
to picture like, how would I have come

1173
00:56:46,155 --> 00:56:50,280
up with this like, I could form no words
as to like how something like that would

1174
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:56,880
come together, but I feel like it's a,
like a series of steps and like mm-hmm.

1175
00:56:56,965 --> 00:56:58,140
To get into flow.

1176
00:56:58,140 --> 00:56:59,070
Maybe I, I don't know.

1177
00:56:59,130 --> 00:57:02,880
Like what, what do you, like, what
does your creative process look like?

1178
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,350
How would you describe it to everybody?

1179
00:57:04,380 --> 00:57:04,800
Mm-hmm.

1180
00:57:05,460 --> 00:57:09,030
So, going into understanding
that it comes through me.

1181
00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:14,400
So, you know, when I gave my workshops, I
said it's almost like, or opening a portal

1182
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:20,790
and letting things come through because I,
it might be a little deep for sign making,

1183
00:57:20,795 --> 00:57:23,160
but it's true for everything I believe.

1184
00:57:23,490 --> 00:57:24,960
And everything's connected to everything.

1185
00:57:24,965 --> 00:57:28,440
And I think good design connects
us to everything, to each other.

1186
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,000
And we're all part of the universe.

1187
00:57:30,005 --> 00:57:31,500
We're all part of the same thing.

1188
00:57:31,500 --> 00:57:36,360
We're ourselves are, are
arranged as the golden means.

1189
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:38,070
So there's a, that's why.

1190
00:57:38,580 --> 00:57:42,299
When we see certain faces or see
certain buildings or something,

1191
00:57:42,299 --> 00:57:43,860
it's all within that golden means.

1192
00:57:43,860 --> 00:57:45,299
So there's a connection there.

1193
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:48,839
And then the book, uh, the old
way of seeing talks about that

1194
00:57:48,839 --> 00:57:51,240
we're innately all good designers.

1195
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:51,630
We're innate.

1196
00:57:51,690 --> 00:57:51,870
Yeah.

1197
00:57:51,870 --> 00:57:52,950
Put it right here, folks.

1198
00:57:53,100 --> 00:57:53,490
That's it.

1199
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:54,630
And so

1200
00:57:54,634 --> 00:57:55,470
we'll drop it in the show

1201
00:57:55,470 --> 00:57:56,130
notes for sure.

1202
00:57:56,339 --> 00:57:56,790
Yeah.

1203
00:57:56,819 --> 00:57:57,750
And it's like, great book.

1204
00:57:57,750 --> 00:58:03,000
I think everyone should read it because
it changes, can change our whole society.

1205
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,319
Like if you're surrounded by good
design, with good design, meaning

1206
00:58:07,830 --> 00:58:11,759
authentic, universal design, that
we feel better, we function better.

1207
00:58:11,765 --> 00:58:13,460
Everything there's,
we're all in that flow.

1208
00:58:14,190 --> 00:58:19,950
So as a designer to get there, I need to,
when I design something, it's never about,

1209
00:58:20,190 --> 00:58:24,330
I, I like this, or I think it should have
that there's, I'm, I'm out of the picture.

1210
00:58:24,330 --> 00:58:25,980
I'm a facilitator period.

1211
00:58:26,430 --> 00:58:27,630
And I let my clients know.

1212
00:58:27,690 --> 00:58:28,920
It's not about what you want.

1213
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:30,210
It's not about what I want.

1214
00:58:30,210 --> 00:58:31,110
It's your story.

1215
00:58:31,620 --> 00:58:33,569
But how it's gonna come about is.

1216
00:58:34,110 --> 00:58:35,430
It's going to come forth.

1217
00:58:35,610 --> 00:58:39,930
It will, it will find me and it
will find the solutions for you.

1218
00:58:39,930 --> 00:58:44,970
So, so yeah, I just, again, that cri
writing criteria, getting in, in the

1219
00:58:44,970 --> 00:58:47,009
feel of it, repeating the criteria.

1220
00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:51,089
And to be honest, if I'm just relaxed,
I have good, nice classical music

1221
00:58:51,095 --> 00:58:55,650
plan or some old jazz and I'm just
in a good place and there's a picture

1222
00:58:55,650 --> 00:59:00,180
usually comes up, pops on the page and
I'll look at it or else what I'll do.

1223
00:59:00,180 --> 00:59:03,420
If that's not happening, I'll
go and for instance, I dunno if

1224
00:59:03,810 --> 00:59:07,920
what signs you're familiar with,
there's a bank cafe has a B on it.

1225
00:59:08,100 --> 00:59:08,520
Mm-hmm.

1226
00:59:09,270 --> 00:59:09,540
Yeah.

1227
00:59:09,540 --> 00:59:10,980
That's one that sticks out in my mind.

1228
00:59:11,130 --> 00:59:11,580
Mm-hmm.

1229
00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:13,170
So I think.

1230
00:59:13,694 --> 00:59:14,115
Okay.

1231
00:59:14,505 --> 00:59:15,525
Didn't want the bank.

1232
00:59:15,525 --> 00:59:16,605
It was a former bank.

1233
00:59:16,605 --> 00:59:20,955
So what started was, I gather everything
else, what they wanted to achieve, who

1234
00:59:20,955 --> 00:59:25,125
they wanted as a client who was coming
into town, the history of the town.

1235
00:59:25,125 --> 00:59:29,174
And she wanted to look, feel as if it was
always established, always been there.

1236
00:59:29,180 --> 00:59:33,194
So I'm thinking, okay, the pioneers
of the time, I did a little research.

1237
00:59:33,435 --> 00:59:38,865
What they did was plant apple trees
and created bee colonies cuz the

1238
00:59:38,865 --> 00:59:43,185
bees were the health of the farm and
health of the natural environment.

1239
00:59:43,185 --> 00:59:46,185
So I thought, oh, and then I looked
in the bees, and bees were community,

1240
00:59:46,395 --> 00:59:51,134
which lined up with the bank, cafes
and wellbeing and everything else.

1241
00:59:51,134 --> 00:59:51,915
I said, well, there we go.

1242
00:59:51,975 --> 00:59:52,575
There's a B.

1243
00:59:53,265 --> 00:59:55,935
That's the one thing, it's
gonna be the B'S going on it.

1244
00:59:55,935 --> 01:00:00,315
So, and what I'm doing too, when I,
when I'm going through this criteria,

1245
01:00:00,315 --> 01:00:02,924
I'm scribbling I, my hands scribbling.

1246
01:00:03,105 --> 01:00:03,645
I don't.

1247
01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:06,270
I don't, I don't look at other signs.

1248
01:00:06,270 --> 01:00:07,680
I don't look at anything.

1249
01:00:07,770 --> 01:00:14,130
I just, it's all about the topic and I'm
thinking, so now, so inside it has, it's

1250
01:00:14,130 --> 01:00:16,350
a really tall, it's classic bank building.

1251
01:00:16,350 --> 01:00:19,950
So I have really tall ceilings
with heavy cornice and, and

1252
01:00:20,330 --> 01:00:22,800
classic, uh, metal ceilings.

1253
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,660
So I left, okay, should have the reach.

1254
01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:26,850
And then I thought, I'm playing it.

1255
01:00:26,850 --> 01:00:28,230
So I'm just playing as well.

1256
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:29,070
And I'm playing around.

1257
01:00:29,070 --> 01:00:30,270
It's like, well, there's honeycomb.

1258
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,930
Well, in the honeycomb there's these
little edges, you know, the sides.

1259
01:00:33,930 --> 01:00:35,310
And I just cool with the line.

1260
01:00:35,310 --> 01:00:38,280
So the whole, I'm just intuitively
sketching and I think, oh,

1261
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:38,911
there's something there.

1262
01:00:41,009 --> 01:00:42,629
And I, I came across the sketch of that.

1263
01:00:42,839 --> 01:00:46,109
It is such a rough scribble, but
I'm just getting the feel of it.

1264
01:00:46,319 --> 01:00:49,859
And so I'm looking back at the
storyline, getting the feel.

1265
01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:55,069
So now I have in the top cap was the
cornice and the up, you know, up lines.

1266
01:00:55,689 --> 01:00:58,740
And the honey corner across the
top just says, traditionally

1267
01:00:58,740 --> 01:01:01,709
they would've done back then how
they would've built the molding.

1268
01:01:02,430 --> 01:01:07,950
And then the teardrop is basically
honey that has a drip, you

1269
01:01:07,950 --> 01:01:10,799
know, just a, a drop of honey.

1270
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:12,779
And it has a nice feel to it.

1271
01:01:12,810 --> 01:01:13,859
If you look at that shape.

1272
01:01:13,859 --> 01:01:19,319
It exists so many places in nature
and we identify with that, you know,

1273
01:01:19,319 --> 01:01:24,209
it's very, uh, and two, the shape
holds, the bee like cradles it as well.

1274
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,100
And so the bees in the middle.

1275
01:01:26,100 --> 01:01:27,120
So there's a lot of.

1276
01:01:27,870 --> 01:01:31,740
Then I'll go through crafts
referencing of, of design elements.

1277
01:01:31,740 --> 01:01:36,060
You know, the border all are
naturally proportion and they're

1278
01:01:36,060 --> 01:01:37,200
all related to each other.

1279
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,370
So every aspect of that
sign is support of that B.

1280
01:01:41,819 --> 01:01:44,580
And there's nothing on that sign
that is just put on there cuz it's

1281
01:01:44,580 --> 01:01:46,440
pretty, or I've seen it down there.

1282
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,580
It's cool, you know, it's just
kind of this natural process.

1283
01:01:50,580 --> 01:01:52,680
And I cross reference it with good design.

1284
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:53,250
Does that work?

1285
01:01:53,250 --> 01:01:54,089
Why does that work?

1286
01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:59,520
You know, the shadow of the, the
upright with all the geometric shapes

1287
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:04,140
and then you have so strong geometric
shapes, contrast to the organic shape.

1288
01:02:04,140 --> 01:02:09,779
It's a really nice, it's like you always
look for contrast, whether it's texture,

1289
01:02:09,870 --> 01:02:13,770
color, dark and light, and then colors.

1290
01:02:13,770 --> 01:02:17,399
You know, why those colors, you
know, some recede, some proceed.

1291
01:02:18,060 --> 01:02:23,730
So, and then the idea of just a bit
of gold and a, so it's decade, so

1292
01:02:24,210 --> 01:02:26,339
they're saying was gourmet fruit or.

1293
01:02:26,790 --> 01:02:28,890
Extraordinary food with a gourmet twist.

1294
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:30,000
So it was,

1295
01:02:30,540 --> 01:02:32,370
yeah, I, I can remember seeing that one.

1296
01:02:32,370 --> 01:02:35,250
And it's like, that's the exact,
that's how I would describe it.

1297
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:37,680
This is like a gourmet sign.

1298
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:38,069
I mean, it's,

1299
01:02:38,075 --> 01:02:38,490
yeah.

1300
01:02:38,609 --> 01:02:41,819
So, so the process is, I wasn't,
I never thought, how am I gonna

1301
01:02:41,819 --> 01:02:43,259
design this or what should I do?

1302
01:02:43,259 --> 01:02:45,870
Or I start looking at other,
don't look at anything else.

1303
01:02:46,390 --> 01:02:51,359
And actually my, my inspiration,
I look at glass blowers.

1304
01:02:51,359 --> 01:02:54,210
I go to the museum, I
look there at painters.

1305
01:02:54,585 --> 01:02:56,865
You know, I hear like everything.

1306
01:02:56,865 --> 01:02:59,025
I don't look at signs and the, that's such

1307
01:02:59,025 --> 01:02:59,745
a good tip.

1308
01:02:59,745 --> 01:03:00,035
Yeah.

1309
01:03:00,315 --> 01:03:03,975
Like, hey, because that's usually like
the first place that people started.

1310
01:03:03,975 --> 01:03:08,145
And I can remember back when I was
like throwing out 20 designs a week.

1311
01:03:08,145 --> 01:03:09,755
It was like, Hey, hey.

1312
01:03:09,915 --> 01:03:13,755
That's the first thing I would do is like,
okay, like I gotta get pretty good idea.

1313
01:03:13,755 --> 01:03:18,404
Let me Google this and see like what
everybody else has put together for Yeah.

1314
01:03:18,435 --> 01:03:20,174
This type of business or something, you

1315
01:03:20,174 --> 01:03:20,235
know?

1316
01:03:20,235 --> 01:03:22,214
And it's a, and it's
an easy common mistake.

1317
01:03:22,245 --> 01:03:27,225
And I did that for eight years until I
met my mentor and he said, he says no.

1318
01:03:27,225 --> 01:03:29,265
And it's, I call it top down stuff.

1319
01:03:29,265 --> 01:03:34,035
He's tried to make it work and, and it
doesn't work because it's not authentic.

1320
01:03:34,035 --> 01:03:35,384
It's coming from our heads.

1321
01:03:35,390 --> 01:03:39,015
It's our minds are very
limited in their ability.

1322
01:03:39,345 --> 01:03:43,424
You know, I like the saying of,
we never saw anything by thinking.

1323
01:03:43,964 --> 01:03:47,265
And so it's more of a, from the
ground up, it's more of a felt thing.

1324
01:03:47,295 --> 01:03:49,964
And it makes sense
because, you know, when I.

1325
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:55,170
So a client comes to me and, and so
after I've designed it, I sit down and I

1326
01:03:55,170 --> 01:04:01,230
reiterate their business and the criteria
I've made, and they, they agreed to that.

1327
01:04:01,230 --> 01:04:02,820
I said, so, and here's the design.

1328
01:04:03,420 --> 01:04:05,009
I don't show them design right off.

1329
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,950
Usually it's a half hour conversation
before I present design and then

1330
01:04:08,250 --> 01:04:13,590
say, here have these elements, uh,
communicate these values you have.

1331
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:17,220
And then, and then it's okay.

1332
01:04:17,340 --> 01:04:19,650
Some say, okay, what happens?

1333
01:04:19,650 --> 01:04:24,810
I think with a lot of sign companies,
the client goes home and they ask their

1334
01:04:25,050 --> 01:04:29,430
janitor or their friends or their husband
or their wife, whether they think of the

1335
01:04:29,430 --> 01:04:31,380
design and they'll put it in the 2 cents.

1336
01:04:31,380 --> 01:04:33,480
And I, so I usually give them the advice.

1337
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:34,560
I say, if you ask.

1338
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:36,870
People in your life, your opinion on this.

1339
01:04:36,900 --> 01:04:38,760
I said ask 'em how it makes them feel.

1340
01:04:39,030 --> 01:04:41,040
Cuz that's the language
we're, we're using.

1341
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,100
And that's the language that's
gonna get people in your store.

1342
01:04:44,490 --> 01:04:46,290
You're essentially, you wanna seduce them.

1343
01:04:46,730 --> 01:04:50,220
I, I had a lot of clients where they
say, I had people come into my store

1344
01:04:50,220 --> 01:04:53,970
and they didn't, they said I was, I
saw you sign and I had to come in here.

1345
01:04:53,970 --> 01:04:54,570
Where do you do?

1346
01:04:55,740 --> 01:04:56,820
How can I sign up?

1347
01:04:57,090 --> 01:05:00,390
And I think it's because when
you design that way, there's

1348
01:05:00,390 --> 01:05:06,450
a, there's an intuitive natural
elements that go into it, you know?

1349
01:05:06,450 --> 01:05:09,570
Um, I think, and then in
the book you'll read that.

1350
01:05:09,570 --> 01:05:11,640
And I think that's, there's
a lot of power to that.

1351
01:05:12,150 --> 01:05:14,160
You know, especially,
we don't see it a lot.

1352
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:19,620
We see square buildings and really bad
architecture, and we're surrounded by,

1353
01:05:20,460 --> 01:05:24,600
you know, disconnected food, you know,
fast food, disconnected architecture,

1354
01:05:25,110 --> 01:05:26,820
you know, bigger, cheaper, faster.

1355
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:27,510
Like how, yeah.

1356
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:28,200
Yes.

1357
01:05:28,530 --> 01:05:30,660
And our society is like, we're just.

1358
01:05:31,050 --> 01:05:32,580
It's like eating fat, junk food.

1359
01:05:32,580 --> 01:05:34,680
You just want more and more and
more and the more you eat, the

1360
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:36,120
more you fast you want to go.

1361
01:05:36,870 --> 01:05:40,110
And I think, you know,
you just get numb to that.

1362
01:05:40,260 --> 01:05:44,070
But then there's something that speaks
to our true nature in all of us,

1363
01:05:44,700 --> 01:05:48,340
our true beings as part of nature.

1364
01:05:48,930 --> 01:05:52,380
That's why we all love going in nature,
not just cuz there's birds tweeting

1365
01:05:52,380 --> 01:05:57,090
and it's fresh airs because we look
around and we see ourselves in nature

1366
01:05:57,180 --> 01:06:01,470
proportionately and and structurally.

1367
01:06:01,470 --> 01:06:07,680
So there's something in that that's
quite powerful and such a great tool

1368
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:15,090
for sign designer and also ultimately,
your client who's going to have.

1369
01:06:15,795 --> 01:06:20,625
Lots of people come through and the right
people come through through their doors.

1370
01:06:21,315 --> 01:06:24,645
And the thing is, you know, typical
too, a lot of them have a business

1371
01:06:24,645 --> 01:06:26,295
and they spend all this money inside.

1372
01:06:26,715 --> 01:06:30,645
I said they have no idea what's inside
unless you get them in the door.

1373
01:06:30,675 --> 01:06:32,955
Not just people, but the right clientele.

1374
01:06:32,955 --> 01:06:37,335
So it's a whole art and science to that
and whole psychology to it as well.

1375
01:06:41,925 --> 01:06:46,095
I just, I look at Mike and like,
I, I dunno if you, you just like

1376
01:06:46,485 --> 01:06:48,645
put him in like a design coma or

1377
01:06:50,895 --> 01:06:51,855
Mike's at a trance right now.

1378
01:06:54,345 --> 01:06:54,675
I know.

1379
01:06:54,675 --> 01:06:58,305
I used to my workshops, I'd have
a whole day of that and just take

1380
01:06:58,305 --> 01:07:02,835
I, what I do, put my designs up
and I deconstruct, deconstruct.

1381
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,595
And it's like worlds within
worlds within worlds.

1382
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:09,645
It's, it's like something so simple.

1383
01:07:09,675 --> 01:07:10,815
They can say so much.

1384
01:07:11,085 --> 01:07:13,785
I think that's when they, I think
when people look at the design

1385
01:07:13,785 --> 01:07:16,589
set, Created that I've done.

1386
01:07:16,830 --> 01:07:20,129
They see, they feel it, but they just
don't know what it is they say it's

1387
01:07:20,134 --> 01:07:22,080
so simple, but they're say so much.

1388
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,359
I think it's along those lines.

1389
01:07:24,359 --> 01:07:27,720
I think we're all great designers.

1390
01:07:27,725 --> 01:07:31,799
We just, our heads get in the way,
you know, and it's easy to do in

1391
01:07:31,805 --> 01:07:36,660
our world, you know, it's just
fast, cheap, and, and lots of it.

1392
01:07:38,069 --> 01:07:38,279
Yeah.

1393
01:07:38,490 --> 01:07:42,480
So if you were to, oh, Mike,
I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

1394
01:07:42,529 --> 01:07:43,589
I, I heard you take a breath.

1395
01:07:43,595 --> 01:07:44,850
You're about to launch into it.

1396
01:07:45,060 --> 01:07:45,270
Oh,

1397
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:47,850
no, no, you're fine man.

1398
01:07:47,850 --> 01:07:48,210
Go ahead.

1399
01:07:48,799 --> 01:07:49,089
Okay.

1400
01:07:49,350 --> 01:07:49,980
All right.

1401
01:07:50,279 --> 01:07:55,560
I was gonna say, SHA like if you had
to give like the average sign shop that

1402
01:07:55,560 --> 01:08:00,569
is doing like the standard stuff out
there, like one or two bits of advice

1403
01:08:00,575 --> 01:08:02,279
right now, what would you tell them?

1404
01:08:03,089 --> 01:08:04,049
How can they be better?

1405
01:08:04,379 --> 01:08:04,920
Yeah.

1406
01:08:05,460 --> 01:08:08,160
You know, this isn't gonna,
doesn't happen overnight, and I.

1407
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,400
You know, you have to carry
on with business and commerce.

1408
01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:17,130
I think if there's something creative
in you that you want to express, or

1409
01:08:17,130 --> 01:08:20,880
you're feeling frustrated with your
work, frustrated with your clients,

1410
01:08:20,939 --> 01:08:25,800
or, or frustrated with not getting the
jobs you want, or competing on price,

1411
01:08:25,805 --> 01:08:27,330
hold on, then start injecting that.

1412
01:08:28,140 --> 01:08:33,840
Start, start bringing the designer to
the fore, uh, and go learn about design.

1413
01:08:34,529 --> 01:08:37,020
You know, don't look at other
science, don't look at other things.

1414
01:08:37,020 --> 01:08:40,229
If you are looking at other
things, don't look at science,

1415
01:08:40,229 --> 01:08:42,359
but look at things you see.

1416
01:08:42,365 --> 01:08:43,890
Just could be anything.

1417
01:08:43,895 --> 01:08:47,700
Architecture or what, what someone's
dress, you know how they dress.

1418
01:08:47,729 --> 01:08:52,020
And try to understand what is it in that,
that I really like and try to understand.

1419
01:08:52,020 --> 01:08:54,029
So if you try to understand.

1420
01:08:54,554 --> 01:08:58,455
Design that way and start to
educate yourself on design.

1421
01:08:58,455 --> 01:09:02,294
There's some good books out there, and
even just the fundamentals of design

1422
01:09:02,354 --> 01:09:06,104
and color theory and all the rest, and
just start injecting it into your work.

1423
01:09:06,524 --> 01:09:09,544
Start coming forward and say,
you know, I'm a designer first.

1424
01:09:10,094 --> 01:09:14,325
We are a design oriented company
and this is the value and this

1425
01:09:14,325 --> 01:09:18,134
is how we, this is why you should
come to us instead of someone else.

1426
01:09:18,254 --> 01:09:19,665
Does anyone get assigned anywhere?

1427
01:09:20,924 --> 01:09:26,144
You know, and, and mediocre signs
are everywhere and it's, it's not

1428
01:09:26,144 --> 01:09:29,575
a judgment call, it's just the fact
that they're not designed well.

1429
01:09:30,524 --> 01:09:34,424
It's like McDonald's, it's still
food, but it's not healthy.

1430
01:09:35,834 --> 01:09:38,955
It doesn't do anybody any good
other than the bottom line.

1431
01:09:39,915 --> 01:09:43,484
So yeah, I would just tell him to
start to become better designers and,

1432
01:09:43,484 --> 01:09:48,434
and look into what that is and, and
stop looking at other people's signs.

1433
01:09:48,765 --> 01:09:52,035
You can look at them and say,
that's, that's wonderful, but

1434
01:09:52,035 --> 01:09:56,625
that's someone else's solution
for a very specific problem.

1435
01:09:57,315 --> 01:09:59,625
And, but if you wanna, if you
insist on looking at science,

1436
01:09:59,625 --> 01:10:01,425
what is it about that you like?

1437
01:10:01,485 --> 01:10:05,205
I mean, take away the goal, take away
all the, the glitz and, and the bells

1438
01:10:05,205 --> 01:10:09,135
and whistles, and it should stand
as black and white image without any

1439
01:10:09,135 --> 01:10:10,845
color, without anything like that.

1440
01:10:10,905 --> 01:10:13,035
And I, I, that's another
thing with design too.

1441
01:10:13,035 --> 01:10:17,715
It'd have to stand in on two dimension
if, and then all the three dimension

1442
01:10:17,715 --> 01:10:20,145
does is enhance those features.

1443
01:10:20,625 --> 01:10:22,425
It just tunes that design a little more.

1444
01:10:22,425 --> 01:10:25,875
So, yeah, just, and you know what?

1445
01:10:27,165 --> 01:10:28,365
Get away from the computer.

1446
01:10:29,205 --> 01:10:31,185
Start, start sketching.

1447
01:10:31,575 --> 01:10:31,965
Start.

1448
01:10:31,965 --> 01:10:35,655
You know, we have, I heard a
scientist say once that we have

1449
01:10:35,685 --> 01:10:37,245
ancestral memory in our hand.

1450
01:10:37,305 --> 01:10:40,575
And I know a lot of intuition
comes through our hands.

1451
01:10:40,580 --> 01:10:44,460
So, You're not even aware of what you're
doing sometimes, and you think, oh,

1452
01:10:44,460 --> 01:10:46,800
what that is cool and what's going on?

1453
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:47,730
So you follow it.

1454
01:10:47,730 --> 01:10:53,340
So yeah, get out, start sketching,
start using your hands and look at type,

1455
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:55,350
like typography too is misunderstood.

1456
01:10:55,350 --> 01:11:00,420
I only use about three or four typefaces
and type has a, uh, an expression and

1457
01:11:00,420 --> 01:11:04,950
has, uh, expression, uh, in so many ways.

1458
01:11:04,950 --> 01:11:09,210
You know, the, like Roman lettering
and some block lettering, gothic

1459
01:11:09,210 --> 01:11:12,330
lettering is all proportion to our
human body, you know, so there's,

1460
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:13,500
there's a connection there.

1461
01:11:13,500 --> 01:11:15,510
So educate yourselves.

1462
01:11:16,230 --> 01:11:17,790
Mike a makes better designer, just

1463
01:11:17,790 --> 01:11:19,260
a handful of typeface.

1464
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:21,960
I asked Mike for a
recommendation the other day.

1465
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:23,550
He gave me like, he's like 12.

1466
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:26,970
I was designing a t-shirt for
my kids' preschool graduation.

1467
01:11:27,210 --> 01:11:28,769
He's like, here's 12 possible ones.

1468
01:11:28,769 --> 01:11:31,140
I was like, dude, I came to
you because I just wanted one.

1469
01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:32,280
Like that's,

1470
01:11:32,730 --> 01:11:34,500
I never give my clients choice either.

1471
01:11:34,940 --> 01:11:37,170
I never, I don't do three designs.

1472
01:11:37,170 --> 01:11:38,250
I do one design.

1473
01:11:38,850 --> 01:11:40,769
Yeah, it's so true.

1474
01:11:40,769 --> 01:11:43,710
You know, I, you know, my, when
I was first getting mentored,

1475
01:11:43,710 --> 01:11:44,820
he said, it's so simple.

1476
01:11:44,820 --> 01:11:49,440
I have to think of as, it's either
circles, rectangles, or triangles

1477
01:11:50,250 --> 01:11:51,960
or circle squares and triangles.

1478
01:11:52,290 --> 01:11:52,920
That was it.

1479
01:11:52,925 --> 01:11:55,050
Everything in the world
is of those things.

1480
01:11:55,050 --> 01:12:00,840
So it's, I always say it's a, you
know, English is my second language

1481
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:02,550
and visual language is my first.

1482
01:12:02,700 --> 01:12:06,660
And I think, you know, as people as
human race, we have tens of thousands

1483
01:12:06,660 --> 01:12:08,519
of years of development in that area.

1484
01:12:08,519 --> 01:12:13,410
So if we, if we understand
that, the more we can understand

1485
01:12:13,440 --> 01:12:14,880
it and it'll be lifetimes.

1486
01:12:15,675 --> 01:12:18,975
Before we can articulate it, but
if we can understand that somewhat,

1487
01:12:18,975 --> 01:12:23,805
we can communicate through signs
or any, any other visual medium.

1488
01:12:24,315 --> 01:12:25,365
I think it's all about connection.

1489
01:12:25,370 --> 01:12:25,875
Bottom line.

1490
01:12:25,875 --> 01:12:31,905
We all wanna connect, you know,
whether it's doing more, doing more

1491
01:12:31,905 --> 01:12:37,845
drugs or working or, or searching for
that, you know, the next product that

1492
01:12:37,845 --> 01:12:39,075
you're gonna throw in the garbage.

1493
01:12:39,765 --> 01:12:41,475
It is just, we want connection.

1494
01:12:41,475 --> 01:12:43,065
So I think good design does that.

1495
01:12:43,485 --> 01:12:49,155
And you know, I always think it was, um,
people have always liked my signs, but

1496
01:12:49,155 --> 01:12:53,625
I think it's not, not because they're
signs because of this other, they just

1497
01:12:53,835 --> 01:12:55,875
connect with it on a, on a deeper level.

1498
01:12:55,905 --> 01:12:56,105
Yeah, yeah.

1499
01:12:56,105 --> 01:12:59,505
That, that we don't normally
do in, in everyday life.

1500
01:12:59,505 --> 01:13:04,665
So, you know, there is, there is a
place in the sign industry for that.

1501
01:13:04,695 --> 01:13:08,265
If anything, there's a big opening for
that because everybody's going this

1502
01:13:08,270 --> 01:13:11,505
way and you can go do the other thing.

1503
01:13:12,269 --> 01:13:17,280
And even if it's just really good
design, understand becoming the sign

1504
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:20,700
experts, the design experts, no, it's
just in the way of, you know, this

1505
01:13:20,700 --> 01:13:22,049
is how I think your sign should look.

1506
01:13:22,049 --> 01:13:27,179
It's like this is the solutions
for your, for your business.

1507
01:13:27,570 --> 01:13:28,259
Very powerful.

1508
01:13:28,889 --> 01:13:31,290
Mike, what were, did you
remember what you were gonna say?

1509
01:13:31,589 --> 01:13:31,889
No.

1510
01:13:32,490 --> 01:13:32,849
No.

1511
01:13:35,219 --> 01:13:35,639
This is either

1512
01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:37,650
very encouraging or very discouraging.

1513
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:41,820
No, my, my brain is, is running
a million miles an hour.

1514
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,790
I'm, I'm thinking of, there's a lot of
parallels with what Shane is saying to

1515
01:13:44,795 --> 01:13:49,139
what Dan Antonelli said when we had him
on, you know, he, he, he talked a lot

1516
01:13:49,139 --> 01:13:55,290
about psychology of, of branding and
marketing and, and, you know, the thought

1517
01:13:55,290 --> 01:13:59,490
processes and psychology behind consumer
buying patterns and everything like that.

1518
01:13:59,519 --> 01:14:02,519
What, what attracts a
person to, to something.

1519
01:14:02,519 --> 01:14:06,089
So I'm thinking a lot about, about
that and I, I, I love Shanes.

1520
01:14:07,035 --> 01:14:11,235
Suggestion to, you know, if you're looking
for inspiration, don't look at signs.

1521
01:14:11,355 --> 01:14:17,445
I think that's something that on a
daily basis, I'm on Google images, like

1522
01:14:17,445 --> 01:14:21,495
I, because I after a while, like, how
many monument signs can you design for?

1523
01:14:21,495 --> 01:14:22,995
They all start looking
exactly the same, you know?

1524
01:14:23,135 --> 01:14:24,435
And I, and I love the.

1525
01:14:25,215 --> 01:14:28,785
The advice to, to not look at
signs, to look at anything else.

1526
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:32,175
And, and I, you know, I, I think that
the rules of good design apply to

1527
01:14:32,175 --> 01:14:35,325
anything that is designed, whether
it's a sign or whether it's a, you

1528
01:14:35,325 --> 01:14:38,025
know, a mouse or car or, or anything.

1529
01:14:38,505 --> 01:14:41,325
You know, good design is good design
and I, I think there's probably a lot

1530
01:14:41,330 --> 01:14:45,495
that you can, a lot of inspiration
that you can gain from looking at other

1531
01:14:45,495 --> 01:14:48,795
well-designed objects or things that
have nothing to do with signage or

1532
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:50,745
typography or advertising or anything.

1533
01:14:51,165 --> 01:14:55,245
Uh, is, is interesting when you're
talking to our, remember Toyota,

1534
01:14:55,245 --> 01:14:57,225
that they design a, a lot of their.

1535
01:14:57,485 --> 01:14:59,525
Cars at first with by hand.

1536
01:15:00,425 --> 01:15:00,515
Mm-hmm.

1537
01:15:00,755 --> 01:15:05,285
So their idea is that human
body kinetics create lines that

1538
01:15:05,290 --> 01:15:06,875
are within the golden mean.

1539
01:15:07,474 --> 01:15:10,415
So, and everything they
do is a lot of hands-on.

1540
01:15:10,445 --> 01:15:14,495
And what happens, you sit in a Toyota or
you look at a Toyota, you just feel good.

1541
01:15:14,500 --> 01:15:17,974
And when you sit, I've heard people
said, I love my to, it just sin.

1542
01:15:17,974 --> 01:15:19,655
It just feels right.

1543
01:15:19,655 --> 01:15:20,345
It fits.

1544
01:15:20,795 --> 01:15:22,325
But I don't think they're
talking physically.

1545
01:15:22,325 --> 01:15:27,335
I think emotionally, like it's a
really, it's very interesting as we,

1546
01:15:27,785 --> 01:15:31,894
you know, no matter how sophisticated
we become, we are still the same.

1547
01:15:33,545 --> 01:15:37,684
We still get lit up by the same
things we did thousands of years ago.

1548
01:15:39,005 --> 01:15:39,245
Right.

1549
01:15:39,995 --> 01:15:40,625
Jillian thing.

1550
01:15:41,224 --> 01:15:42,215
Yeah, it is.

1551
01:15:42,215 --> 01:15:42,455
Yeah.

1552
01:15:42,455 --> 01:15:44,345
It's interesting when
you describe it that way.

1553
01:15:45,125 --> 01:15:46,775
Let's transition to the future, Shane.

1554
01:15:46,805 --> 01:15:46,894
Mm-hmm.

1555
01:15:47,140 --> 01:15:50,885
What's, what's the future for
you and for your business?

1556
01:15:50,885 --> 01:15:53,375
Like, what is, what is the, the future?

1557
01:15:54,425 --> 01:15:59,685
Well, I think, you know, You know, where
I am, uh, in my life and my career.

1558
01:16:00,285 --> 01:16:04,545
I would love to, I always, in my workshops
too, I'm not just doing two more,

1559
01:16:04,965 --> 01:16:08,475
but in the workshops I said like, I'm
just wanna hand off what I was given.

1560
01:16:08,775 --> 01:16:11,805
Like, it's not like I know everything
and this is the way to do it.

1561
01:16:11,805 --> 01:16:15,255
It's more or less showing
how to open a door instead of

1562
01:16:15,375 --> 01:16:16,665
tell 'em what door to open.

1563
01:16:17,385 --> 01:16:22,305
So I just wanna pass on the knowledge
that was given to me because it is

1564
01:16:22,305 --> 01:16:27,255
such a simple concept, but is so
overlooked and missed in today's society.

1565
01:16:28,095 --> 01:16:32,025
And I think it'll just make the world a
better place and, and make your business

1566
01:16:32,025 --> 01:16:38,309
more run better, more satisfying, and,
Better clients, but so many signs I

1567
01:16:38,309 --> 01:16:41,100
see everywhere, it's just so, there's
such disconnection around there.

1568
01:16:41,100 --> 01:16:46,140
So I, I want, hopefully in some form
I pass that forward, whether it's

1569
01:16:46,170 --> 01:16:50,220
someone suggested Zoom, cuz it's,
it's expensive to come, you know,

1570
01:16:50,220 --> 01:16:53,012
to get on a flight to pay for the
workshop and, and the rest of it.

1571
01:16:53,017 --> 01:16:56,820
But perhaps a book, uh, someone
mentioned, you know, book with all

1572
01:16:56,820 --> 01:17:00,870
of the design philosophy, all the
processes, all the pictures deconstructed.

1573
01:17:00,870 --> 01:17:04,800
So it's just one book you can
keep on hand and just kind of re

1574
01:17:04,830 --> 01:17:08,160
remind yourself how to go about,
not to get in your head too much.

1575
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:12,059
So, I mean, perhaps a book for
me, but as far as work goes, you

1576
01:17:12,059 --> 01:17:14,760
know, always be a sign sign guy.

1577
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:18,720
I always design signs
and consult that way.

1578
01:17:19,019 --> 01:17:24,059
Um, but my focus now is to
go into hand carving fully.

1579
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:29,250
Cause I missed that, that part and I
never got a chance to fully explore that.

1580
01:17:29,255 --> 01:17:34,350
So, and it's the same approach
as I did with signs, but now I'm.

1581
01:17:34,980 --> 01:17:36,210
It can go and create art.

1582
01:17:36,210 --> 01:17:38,000
It's more art than Yeah.

1583
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:39,269
Than just functional.

1584
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:40,050
Yeah.

1585
01:17:40,050 --> 01:17:43,440
And that carving, that's, they've
been staring at me the whole time.

1586
01:17:43,500 --> 01:17:45,389
We've doing the podcast
behind me, right, yeah.

1587
01:17:45,389 --> 01:17:46,710
Behind you is like, ugh.

1588
01:17:47,130 --> 01:17:47,970
It's amazing, man.

1589
01:17:48,099 --> 01:17:53,910
And, and to think, like, when I
look at stuff like that, I, I just,

1590
01:17:53,910 --> 01:17:55,440
I'm like, I could never do that.

1591
01:17:55,500 --> 01:17:59,460
But I, I, I, I'm sure like at
one point you were probably

1592
01:17:59,460 --> 01:18:00,570
feeling the same way there.

1593
01:18:01,019 --> 01:18:06,510
It's, it's so interesting you said that,
you know, I feel I've learned so much

1594
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:11,220
about life through my work, and not
just through the work, but striving to,

1595
01:18:11,309 --> 01:18:16,019
as you say, you know, to keep getting
better, to, I want to do more and better.

1596
01:18:16,650 --> 01:18:19,950
And with carving was a big one because
when I first started carving, I

1597
01:18:19,950 --> 01:18:21,180
think, I think I know what I'm doing.

1598
01:18:21,184 --> 01:18:21,660
I get it.

1599
01:18:21,660 --> 01:18:23,400
So, and it's just this mess.

1600
01:18:23,610 --> 01:18:25,230
It's like chunks missing.

1601
01:18:25,230 --> 01:18:27,830
And I think I, I can't
see anything anymore.

1602
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:29,250
And I think it's like life, right?

1603
01:18:29,255 --> 01:18:31,410
It's like we just kind of, I
thought I knew what I was doing.

1604
01:18:31,410 --> 01:18:33,660
Now I'm just in this mess, soap.

1605
01:18:34,290 --> 01:18:37,980
How I started was I think, okay, I'm
gonna break it down into small pieces.

1606
01:18:38,519 --> 01:18:44,040
And I picked my highest and the lowest
points of the carving and now I'm just

1607
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:46,589
going to break it down to simple steps.

1608
01:18:47,250 --> 01:18:50,429
And so by the time you
finished, you arrived.

1609
01:18:50,434 --> 01:18:52,650
But I could never look at that.

1610
01:18:52,740 --> 01:18:54,269
People like, I think we just carve it.

1611
01:18:54,269 --> 01:18:58,620
It's like, no, it's a series of
processes and steps to get to that point.

1612
01:18:58,769 --> 01:19:03,900
And at the end it just looks complex,
but it's complex cuz there's many layers,

1613
01:19:03,900 --> 01:19:05,490
but I can only do one layer at a time.

1614
01:19:05,490 --> 01:19:08,400
So there's a, I think a
lot of people could carve.

1615
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:13,620
I think, uh, I used to have a little bit
of carving classes and I say, we all know

1616
01:19:13,620 --> 01:19:15,330
an apple, so we'll carve an apple first.

1617
01:19:15,330 --> 01:19:19,469
And it's amazing, um, how well
people can carve and, and.

1618
01:19:20,130 --> 01:19:20,730
Do this kind

1619
01:19:20,730 --> 01:19:23,970
of work, especially when you
can turn, turn your head off

1620
01:19:24,630 --> 01:19:25,530
always away, right?

1621
01:19:25,980 --> 01:19:26,700
Yeah, yeah.

1622
01:19:27,420 --> 01:19:27,820
I know.

1623
01:19:28,810 --> 01:19:29,100
Yeah.

1624
01:19:30,690 --> 01:19:34,560
So, uh, this is a, like
a, a tougher question.

1625
01:19:34,860 --> 01:19:36,480
What do you wanna be remembered for?

1626
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:37,350
That is a good

1627
01:19:37,350 --> 01:19:37,890
question.

1628
01:19:38,540 --> 01:19:40,980
Um, I have a hard time with that question.

1629
01:19:40,980 --> 01:19:43,680
I kept, you know, coming up with nothing.

1630
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:49,050
But I think, cause I thought my
work was never about me at all.

1631
01:19:49,950 --> 01:19:53,220
And I'm always uncomfortable when people
say, you have lots of talent or love,

1632
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:55,410
you know, or I'm the master of this.

1633
01:19:55,410 --> 01:19:56,520
It's like, no, I'm not.

1634
01:19:57,030 --> 01:20:02,700
I'm just found a way to communicate
to something bigger than myself.

1635
01:20:02,700 --> 01:20:10,200
And I, I just learned to
facilitate and, and I'm glad it,

1636
01:20:10,230 --> 01:20:11,850
it's taught me that humility.

1637
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:14,910
But I think if anything, if I
remembered for anything, I think it

1638
01:20:14,910 --> 01:20:16,410
would be that I honored the craft.

1639
01:20:16,934 --> 01:20:21,615
I was steadfast in my honoring of
the craft and didn't compromise

1640
01:20:22,035 --> 01:20:25,245
in any way with that, you know?

1641
01:20:25,335 --> 01:20:25,394
I

1642
01:20:25,394 --> 01:20:25,815
love that.

1643
01:20:26,085 --> 01:20:26,295
Yeah.

1644
01:20:26,355 --> 01:20:28,995
It, it, it, it definitely
comes through in your work.

1645
01:20:29,054 --> 01:20:29,655
A hundred percent.

1646
01:20:30,014 --> 01:20:30,345
So,

1647
01:20:32,144 --> 01:20:32,415
yeah.

1648
01:20:32,420 --> 01:20:33,675
Thanks Mike.

1649
01:20:34,425 --> 01:20:37,245
Are you just, I think I've disturbed.

1650
01:20:39,075 --> 01:20:39,554
I see it.

1651
01:20:40,545 --> 01:20:43,215
He's, he's like a little,
like, I dunno, anything.

1652
01:20:43,220 --> 01:20:43,815
I dunno.

1653
01:20:43,905 --> 01:20:44,804
Shane broke me.

1654
01:20:48,644 --> 01:20:50,054
That's step one though, right?

1655
01:20:50,059 --> 01:20:50,195
Oh yeah.

1656
01:20:50,684 --> 01:20:51,585
Mission accomplished.

1657
01:20:52,665 --> 01:20:52,955
Yeah.

1658
01:20:53,175 --> 01:20:53,775
You can't fix

1659
01:20:53,775 --> 01:20:54,945
anything that's not broken, right?

1660
01:20:56,144 --> 01:21:02,144
No, I, I, I, I have, I have his Instagram
and stuff open over here on my other

1661
01:21:02,144 --> 01:21:04,724
screen, so I'm kind of scrolling through
it as he is talking and looking at all

1662
01:21:04,724 --> 01:21:07,575
these signs and stuff and just, it's been,
it's been a little while since I look

1663
01:21:07,575 --> 01:21:10,934
at some of your work and, and it's just,
you know, part of it makes me just wanna

1664
01:21:10,934 --> 01:21:13,215
like, throw my hands and quit, you know?

1665
01:21:13,215 --> 01:21:13,695
Right now.

1666
01:21:15,165 --> 01:21:15,585
Screw it.

1667
01:21:17,519 --> 01:21:22,420
Uh, your, your, your walk through
life is really interesting and,

1668
01:21:22,559 --> 01:21:24,719
and really resonates with me.

1669
01:21:25,380 --> 01:21:29,910
It sounds like we've kind of had some,
some similar experiences with, with, with

1670
01:21:29,910 --> 01:21:31,920
hitting that wall and, and, and burnout.

1671
01:21:31,925 --> 01:21:34,380
So I, I'm just, I'm really, I apologize.

1672
01:21:34,380 --> 01:21:35,910
I don't mean to be quite so, so quiet.

1673
01:21:35,910 --> 01:21:40,679
I know I'm usually not quite the,
the quiet guy on these, but I'm just

1674
01:21:40,679 --> 01:21:42,179
kind of absorbing what he's saying.

1675
01:21:42,179 --> 01:21:46,860
It really, a lot of it really hits
home and it's, it's very pertinent to,

1676
01:21:47,190 --> 01:21:49,980
you know, kind of some of the things
that I'm dealing with right now.

1677
01:21:49,985 --> 01:21:52,559
Burnout work and, and
thinking about the future.

1678
01:21:52,559 --> 01:21:55,139
And yeah, for that matter, what
do I wanna be remembered for?

1679
01:21:55,380 --> 01:21:55,740
You know?

1680
01:21:55,950 --> 01:21:57,900
And I don't wanna be remembered
as being a workaholic.

1681
01:21:58,380 --> 01:21:58,769
Yeah.

1682
01:21:59,580 --> 01:22:01,679
I think that's my biggest fear myself.

1683
01:22:02,130 --> 01:22:02,219
Mm-hmm.

1684
01:22:02,490 --> 01:22:07,920
Um, especially to my kids of
like, I, I don't want to be

1685
01:22:07,925 --> 01:22:08,900
remembered as that to my kids.

1686
01:22:09,170 --> 01:22:13,889
Like, uh, hey, like, dad was
working, I, this big thing

1687
01:22:13,889 --> 01:22:15,090
happened and dad wasn't here.

1688
01:22:16,379 --> 01:22:16,889
That's big.

1689
01:22:17,070 --> 01:22:18,120
Oh my God, that's huge.

1690
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,210
And I was lucky enough to work
downstairs and my kids would come

1691
01:22:21,210 --> 01:22:24,990
down and, and for a lot of it, for a
lot of years they wanna talk to me.

1692
01:22:24,990 --> 01:22:26,519
It was down in my shop.

1693
01:22:26,940 --> 01:22:29,879
So they'd come down, I'd stop what
I was doing and, and give them full

1694
01:22:29,879 --> 01:22:31,320
attention and, and talk with them.

1695
01:22:32,059 --> 01:22:33,750
But I didn't go on camping trips.

1696
01:22:33,809 --> 01:22:36,330
I didn't go hardly anywhere with
them cuz I was working all the

1697
01:22:36,330 --> 01:22:38,700
time with such great regret.

1698
01:22:38,700 --> 01:22:43,650
But I have to say though, for
my kids, every time they smell

1699
01:22:43,650 --> 01:22:47,460
sawdust or the smell of wood,
they think of those fond memories.

1700
01:22:48,269 --> 01:22:52,049
So as, hopefully I got
quality time in there.

1701
01:22:52,049 --> 01:22:52,759
But yeah, life.

1702
01:22:52,860 --> 01:22:55,469
So life's tough when you have regret.

1703
01:22:55,769 --> 01:22:58,259
Regret's a tough one cause you
can't do anything about that.

1704
01:22:58,259 --> 01:23:00,299
But guys are still in the position.

1705
01:23:00,990 --> 01:23:04,920
I think it, I think it's just striking
balance, just creating, creating balance

1706
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:09,179
and understanding why you feel the need
to work so hard and you think of, you

1707
01:23:09,179 --> 01:23:12,120
know, just this whole conversation I.

1708
01:23:13,094 --> 01:23:17,085
You know, Dirk Rampling, his
work, are you familiar with Dirk?

1709
01:23:17,205 --> 01:23:18,135
He's in Australia.

1710
01:23:18,825 --> 01:23:20,175
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1711
01:23:20,175 --> 01:23:26,054
So they came, took my workshop, his,
and through the workshop he had the same

1712
01:23:26,295 --> 01:23:31,245
expression as Mike, actually, more so his
eyes on him, he looked so tired, he just

1713
01:23:31,245 --> 01:23:34,965
like, like exasperated and beleaguered.

1714
01:23:35,625 --> 01:23:40,184
And it took him, he, it took him,
uh, he went back home and it slowly

1715
01:23:40,184 --> 01:23:43,035
absorbed, uh, into him, like processed.

1716
01:23:43,514 --> 01:23:47,295
And he approached his work
entirely different and differently.

1717
01:23:47,295 --> 01:23:51,644
And it just, he work in a matter of
few months to switched right over

1718
01:23:51,945 --> 01:23:57,075
completely into a whole other level
of design and did doing his own thing.

1719
01:23:57,495 --> 01:24:00,945
It didn't look like anyone
else's, which was pretty cool.

1720
01:24:02,085 --> 01:24:05,264
So, yeah, it's, it, it is, it's
like learning a new golf swing.

1721
01:24:05,269 --> 01:24:10,755
It's a brute at first, but after
a while it's so, so simple in.

1722
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:12,360
And it's application.

1723
01:24:12,780 --> 01:24:15,510
And, um, Shane, tell us about
the workshops real quick.

1724
01:24:15,515 --> 01:24:15,580
Mm-hmm.

1725
01:24:15,580 --> 01:24:15,930
I know we've mm-hmm.

1726
01:24:15,930 --> 01:24:18,720
We've, you know, hinted around
at them a little bit, but,

1727
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:21,420
um, just give us the Yeah.

1728
01:24:21,420 --> 01:24:22,620
Elevator pitch on those things.

1729
01:24:22,710 --> 01:24:22,980
Yeah.

1730
01:24:23,370 --> 01:24:27,330
Well, I think, you know, I, I call it,
it's, it's just a rethink on design

1731
01:24:27,390 --> 01:24:32,010
and it's pretty much what we've talked
about, and it's just a whole shift.

1732
01:24:32,010 --> 01:24:33,360
It's a, a full weekend.

1733
01:24:33,420 --> 01:24:36,660
People have taken it before they,
you know, it's game changer.

1734
01:24:37,050 --> 01:24:41,370
Danowski took it and he uses a
lot of it in his, his business.

1735
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:46,200
It is, uh, it is like a, a light
bulb moment for a lot of people,

1736
01:24:46,480 --> 01:24:51,600
and it's changed the way they, they
do business and, and, and design.

1737
01:24:52,410 --> 01:24:57,120
Uh, it's three day workshop starts Friday
and goes till, uh, Sunday afternoon.

1738
01:24:57,840 --> 01:25:04,050
The, um, a lot of it's in class de
uh, dissecting or deconstructing

1739
01:25:04,050 --> 01:25:07,200
design and selling signs and.

1740
01:25:08,430 --> 01:25:11,760
Pretty much everything we've talked
about is the full package on that.

1741
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:16,260
And also at the end of it, they, um,
they get a free design consultation

1742
01:25:16,265 --> 01:25:18,990
on one, uh, project for me.

1743
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:20,010
Good for a year.

1744
01:25:21,150 --> 01:25:29,100
The first one is in, is this weekend,
and the second one is July 14th to 16th.

1745
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:35,370
And, um, I have, if you know,
uh, Roger Cox, he's coming, he

1746
01:25:35,370 --> 01:25:37,080
had a host of signs, um, yeah.

1747
01:25:37,260 --> 01:25:37,650
Gary,

1748
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:38,760
Gary Johnson.

1749
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:39,960
His signs are unbelievable too.

1750
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:42,480
Yeah, that's, that's another
one that's worth looking up if

1751
01:25:42,480 --> 01:25:43,380
you guys have never seen it.

1752
01:25:43,620 --> 01:25:44,010
Yeah.

1753
01:25:44,015 --> 01:25:46,680
And, uh, Noel, Noel, ham.

1754
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:51,270
Ham, she does sign signs in Chatham.

1755
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,540
She's been sign crafted quite a bit.

1756
01:25:55,590 --> 01:25:55,740
Yeah.

1757
01:25:55,740 --> 01:25:56,550
That name sounds familiar.

1758
01:25:56,550 --> 01:25:56,910
I've heard it.

1759
01:25:56,910 --> 01:25:57,300
Yeah.

1760
01:25:58,725 --> 01:25:59,145
Sign it.

1761
01:25:59,145 --> 01:25:59,565
Yeah.

1762
01:25:59,835 --> 01:26:00,105
Caught.

1763
01:26:00,555 --> 01:26:01,035
I'm sorry.

1764
01:26:01,275 --> 01:26:01,875
Sorry, Noel.

1765
01:26:01,875 --> 01:26:03,015
I forget your last name.

1766
01:26:03,225 --> 01:26:03,445
Uh,

1767
01:26:03,945 --> 01:26:04,305
that's okay.

1768
01:26:04,455 --> 01:26:04,725
Yeah.

1769
01:26:04,995 --> 01:26:06,615
We'll, we'll try to include
all these in the show

1770
01:26:06,615 --> 01:26:07,005
notes for sure.

1771
01:26:07,005 --> 01:26:07,245
Yeah.

1772
01:26:07,455 --> 01:26:12,015
And Gary Johnson of Great American
Sign Company, so he's coming and, and

1773
01:26:12,020 --> 01:26:13,665
a few others have expressed interest.

1774
01:26:13,665 --> 01:26:15,675
So it's interesting though.

1775
01:26:15,675 --> 01:26:18,615
I thought I'd get more, but you
know, it could be signs of the times.

1776
01:26:18,615 --> 01:26:19,785
I mean, I used to do them.

1777
01:26:19,785 --> 01:26:21,105
I, they were full all the time.

1778
01:26:21,105 --> 01:26:25,395
But, um, you know, it's
a, it's a commitment.

1779
01:26:26,415 --> 01:26:31,215
Not just come to the workshop, but to
wanting to change how you do business.

1780
01:26:31,215 --> 01:26:33,975
And, and a lot of people
think, I can't just be on me.

1781
01:26:33,975 --> 01:26:35,745
That that's not, not the way at all.

1782
01:26:36,615 --> 01:26:43,184
I mean, if you saw my work before, It
was, it was mediocre at, at best it was.

1783
01:26:43,965 --> 01:26:45,975
And um, I keep it around.

1784
01:26:46,035 --> 01:26:46,875
It's just like, well,

1785
01:26:48,184 --> 01:26:50,385
yeah, yeah, sometimes you
gotta keep yourself humble.

1786
01:26:50,535 --> 01:26:51,235
Certainly Uhhuh.

1787
01:26:53,625 --> 01:26:55,725
It's just like, you know, it's
like playing in the wrong ballpark.

1788
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:59,175
It's all by myself thinking
I'm doing a great job until

1789
01:26:59,175 --> 01:27:00,495
I go over to the other ones.

1790
01:27:00,495 --> 01:27:02,175
Oh, this is how you play baseball.

1791
01:27:03,345 --> 01:27:03,635
There you go.

1792
01:27:04,065 --> 01:27:04,635
That's so cool.

1793
01:27:05,175 --> 01:27:07,815
Well, Shane, uh, can't thank
you enough for coming on, man.

1794
01:27:07,845 --> 01:27:10,394
This has been such an
interesting conversation.

1795
01:27:10,455 --> 01:27:13,165
Definitely one of my favorite
episodes that we've recorded so far.

1796
01:27:13,415 --> 01:27:17,505
Uh, just we hit on so many
different things and it's.

1797
01:27:18,300 --> 01:27:21,540
Uh, I'm kind of like Mike in some
aspects, but I, I could still move my

1798
01:27:21,545 --> 01:27:23,820
mouth and words come out, so we're good.

1799
01:27:23,970 --> 01:27:24,360
We're good there.

1800
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:25,590
Yeah.

1801
01:27:25,590 --> 01:27:28,380
I, Shane, I, I apologize advance.

1802
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:33,360
It's, I feel like I'm gonna like, no,
like, in like two days you're gonna get

1803
01:27:33,365 --> 01:27:38,940
an email from me with like 8,000 questions
and thoughts and like, as this stuff just

1804
01:27:38,940 --> 01:27:42,290
like works its way through my brain and
all it, you know, hits me Exactly once

1805
01:27:42,290 --> 01:27:43,380
I'm like, oh, I should've asked him this.

1806
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,140
I should've asked him
this, so I apologize.

1807
01:27:46,140 --> 01:27:47,550
Cause I'm gonna overwhelm
you with questions

1808
01:27:47,550 --> 01:27:47,880
pretty soon.

1809
01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:50,100
That's why, you know, that's why
I was telling my clients if I saw

1810
01:27:50,100 --> 01:27:52,850
that same look, I think just go home
and let it absorb in, come back.

1811
01:27:53,970 --> 01:27:54,900
Call, man, what a marinate.

1812
01:27:55,170 --> 01:27:55,890
You let him marinate.

1813
01:27:55,890 --> 01:27:56,280
Yeah.

1814
01:27:56,540 --> 01:27:56,830
Yeah.

1815
01:27:56,910 --> 01:27:58,440
But I, yeah, I've enjoyed this a lot.

1816
01:27:58,440 --> 01:28:01,170
I feel like I sit down at a
kitchen table with you guys.

1817
01:28:01,290 --> 01:28:03,240
The only thing missing is a beer at hand.

1818
01:28:03,780 --> 01:28:05,040
So it's, I've enjoyed it a lot.

1819
01:28:05,340 --> 01:28:05,700
It's been great.

1820
01:28:05,850 --> 01:28:08,280
It's great to talk to
sign, sign people as well.

1821
01:28:08,340 --> 01:28:09,090
I don't, we'll

1822
01:28:09,090 --> 01:28:12,330
have to invite Shane to our next
happy hour, uh, podcast episode.

1823
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:12,630
Yeah.

1824
01:28:12,690 --> 01:28:13,050
Yeah.

1825
01:28:14,100 --> 01:28:15,450
That last one was a little rowdy.

1826
01:28:15,510 --> 01:28:15,750
Yeah.

1827
01:28:17,850 --> 01:28:18,810
Since you had alcohol.

1828
01:28:18,990 --> 01:28:19,500
Anything.

1829
01:28:19,940 --> 01:28:20,230
Yeah.

1830
01:28:20,230 --> 01:28:21,030
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1831
01:28:23,010 --> 01:28:27,780
Um, I'm, I'm definitely more,
more verbose when I had a bottle

1832
01:28:27,780 --> 01:28:28,860
of that Costco Chardonnay.

1833
01:28:29,430 --> 01:28:30,030
There you go.

1834
01:28:30,035 --> 01:28:30,310
Yeah.

1835
01:28:30,570 --> 01:28:33,480
That's all it takes to get
my Matt or Mike in the flow.

1836
01:28:33,570 --> 01:28:34,680
I can't even say his name.

1837
01:28:34,685 --> 01:28:34,870
Yeah.

1838
01:28:36,810 --> 01:28:38,730
Shane, really, really awesome.

1839
01:28:38,820 --> 01:28:39,930
Um, talking to you.

1840
01:28:39,930 --> 01:28:44,400
I'm actually gonna, um, look up
your, Design versus here in a minute

1841
01:28:44,490 --> 01:28:48,240
and, uh, maybe see if we can come
out there to the July one, cuz it

1842
01:28:48,599 --> 01:28:50,160
I'd love to participate in that.

1843
01:28:50,219 --> 01:28:50,370
Yeah,

1844
01:28:50,370 --> 01:28:50,639
for sure.

1845
01:28:51,150 --> 01:28:55,170
And I think that one will be, you know
what, I've, it's just gonna be such a

1846
01:28:55,170 --> 01:29:00,870
great exchange of good sign people, you
know, Roger and, and Noella and Gary.

1847
01:29:00,870 --> 01:29:04,920
And, and if you guys came, I think
it would be a really, uh, memorable,

1848
01:29:05,460 --> 01:29:07,830
uh, event, you know, a small group.

1849
01:29:07,835 --> 01:29:07,889
Yeah,

1850
01:29:07,889 --> 01:29:10,080
I, I'd love to, I I'd love to.

1851
01:29:10,080 --> 01:29:14,009
I I've been wanting to get out to,
you know, I did, I did j Cook's

1852
01:29:14,250 --> 01:29:17,700
Science School years ago, like 25
years ago or something like that.

1853
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:19,469
And that was the last one I did.

1854
01:29:19,474 --> 01:29:23,009
And, um, you know, I thought about
doing Dan's up in, up there in Canada

1855
01:29:23,009 --> 01:29:26,219
too, but I don't really, I don't
make signs anymore, so I don't know

1856
01:29:26,219 --> 01:29:29,460
how much I would, I would get from
his, but I, I, this, this definitely

1857
01:29:29,465 --> 01:29:31,639
appeals to me a lot, so, um mm-hmm.

1858
01:29:31,860 --> 01:29:34,019
I'm hoping I, I get to meet
you in person here in the next

1859
01:29:34,025 --> 01:29:34,380
couple months.

1860
01:29:34,380 --> 01:29:35,519
It'd be great to see you.

1861
01:29:35,519 --> 01:29:37,230
And, uh, Pauling Wood's a beautiful area.

1862
01:29:37,230 --> 01:29:37,889
It's stunning.

1863
01:29:38,309 --> 01:29:40,980
Truly, we have the nigro
department in Georgia and Bay.

1864
01:29:41,625 --> 01:29:42,135
Yeah, it's pretty

1865
01:29:42,135 --> 01:29:42,375
area.

1866
01:29:42,375 --> 01:29:43,605
I've been up in that area before.

1867
01:29:43,695 --> 01:29:44,685
It is, it is lovely.

1868
01:29:45,465 --> 01:29:47,055
Especially in July and
not the middle of winter.

1869
01:29:47,505 --> 01:29:47,685
Yeah,

1870
01:29:48,105 --> 01:29:48,705
that's such right.

1871
01:29:48,705 --> 01:29:50,595
That's got skis strapped to your feet.

1872
01:29:51,845 --> 01:29:52,135
Yeah.

1873
01:29:54,345 --> 01:29:54,825
Beautiful.

1874
01:29:55,035 --> 01:29:56,895
All right, Shane, thanks again.

1875
01:29:56,900 --> 01:29:57,175
Yeah,

1876
01:29:57,405 --> 01:29:57,555
thanks.

1877
01:29:57,555 --> 01:29:58,065
Pleasure, man.

1878
01:29:58,070 --> 01:29:59,295
Yeah, awesome, Shane.

1879
01:29:59,295 --> 01:30:01,005
Uh, let's keep in touch too.

1880
01:30:01,005 --> 01:30:01,575
I'd like that.

1881
01:30:02,115 --> 01:30:06,225
But hopefully you'll see, uh, both of you,
one of you at the, uh, workshop in July.

1882
01:30:06,225 --> 01:30:06,915
That'd be amazing.

1883
01:30:07,695 --> 01:30:07,935
Yeah,

1884
01:30:08,415 --> 01:30:09,075
I'm gonna try to come.

1885
01:30:09,075 --> 01:30:09,735
I'd love to be there.

1886
01:30:10,065 --> 01:30:10,605
Super person.

1887
01:30:10,845 --> 01:30:10,995
So.

1888
01:30:10,995 --> 01:30:11,385
All right.

1889
01:30:11,655 --> 01:30:12,555
Thank you for your time.

1890
01:30:12,615 --> 01:30:13,335
Really appreciate it.

1891
01:30:13,335 --> 01:30:14,485
It was a great talking to,
it was a great pleasure.

1892
01:30:14,490 --> 01:30:15,075
Great listening to you.

1893
01:30:15,735 --> 01:30:16,765
All right, thanks.

1894
01:30:18,255 --> 01:30:18,405
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1895
01:30:18,435 --> 01:30:22,815
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1896
01:30:22,875 --> 01:30:26,445
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1897
01:30:27,105 --> 01:30:27,345
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1898
01:30:27,345 --> 01:30:28,275
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1899
01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:30,405
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1900
01:30:30,765 --> 01:30:31,755
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