Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I've got Christine Duran, like Duran Duran, but only one Duran, not two.
That's fine.
Who runs Triple H Ranch in the Chicago area.
And what's unique about this place is it's not just a therapeutic
equine place for humans.
It's also a full on proper horse rescue, like proper job horse rescue.
I've been there a couple times and it is always kind of educational to
be reminded what levels of abuse and neglect, even in today's America horses,
animals, and I guess people still undergo and so much of it's hidden.
So somebody has to be there in the front line to.
Mitigate this, and there she is.
She's sitting in front of you, Christine Doran.
And of course she's then rehabbing these horses and giving them second
lives as equine assisted partners.
So it's, it's a wonderful, wonderful ecosystem.
And it's something that should be an inspiration to us all.
So Christine, thanks for coming on.
How'd you get involved in this and why?
Christine Doran: Well, thank you so much for having me.
You know, I actually got started with this 20 years ago when I was in high
school, and it just so happened that everyone was talking about what they
wanted to do with their lives that day.
And I looked around and I was like.
Well, I'm 16.
I have no idea what I wanna do with my life.
So I have a very conversational relationship with God.
And I was driving home that day and I was like, all right, why am I here?
I love people, I love animals, I love helping them.
Like what's my purpose?
And I'm like, if you could just gimme a large sign.
And before I said, amen, I looked and I was like, well, we both
know what I'm like, I'm gonna need a large flashing sign.
And so I said, amen.
And the moment I said, amen.
I was driving past a strip mall and while I was at school that day, they put up
this huge electronic billboard sign and it's flashing, it's in all caps, and it
says, call Good Samaritan's Boys Ranch.
Two day exclamation point.
And I was like, oh, thanks for the flashing sign.
So I pulled over 'cause it's pre cell phone days, and I write the number on my
hand and I go back home and I call and I say, you know, I know I'm gonna sound
like the crazy kid, but I really felt like I, I meant to learn about your program.
And it just so happened that the executive director answered the
phone and he spoke with me for an hour and a half about how they use
horses to help heal troubled youth.
And I was like, okay, I know where I'm going, but I was 16, so you
can't jump into something like that.
And so I thought the best thing that I could possibly do was get into
therapeutic writing and start helping out.
Starting to see different disabilities.
And I did, I went, you were
Rupert Isaacson: already a horse girl.
I take it.
Christine Doran: I was, I was first put on a horse when I was 18 months old.
And two of my sisters, I'm, I'm the youngest of 10.
So I always say chaos does not exist.
You know, life is an ice skating rink.
Wear your skates to wear your shoes.
Choice is yours, you know, like.
Being the youngest of 10, you just, you have to be able to
adapt and pivot like no other.
So, that I think has helped me immensely being able to run Triple
H because no day is the same.
There's a, you know, you could be planning to do all of this and you
get an emergency call and your whole day gets thrown out the window.
So I I started volunteering with those.
And then right after high school two weeks after it I left and I moved
to Madrid, Spain for three years
Rupert Isaacson: as you do.
That's very random.
Or for, for a horsey girl from the middle.
A little
Christine Doran: Missouri girl to
Rupert Isaacson: just jump and, and also yeah, because it's one thing to
go traveling in an English speaking country, as you and I both know
English speakers tend to be incredibly lazy about having other languages.
That's an incredibly unusual decision to have made at that age.
There must be a story behind it, please.
Christine Doran: There is.
So, my sister Jennifer has actually lived in Spain for 30 years.
Okay.
And so she,
Rupert Isaacson: again, Midwestern girl from Missouri goes to live in Spain.
Not quite so usual.
That's quite so
Christine Doran: usual, right?
Us toand, we just don't fall into the usual.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Christine Doran: A skinny one.
No.
She, she went for a semester abroad in college and fell in love with it.
And then she got a job for a magazine company where she sold articles
like to do marketing articles.
And she traveled all over the world.
And so she's been to over 36 countries.
She lived in eight different countries, but Spain was her favorite country.
So yeah, she settled there.
And I understand why I love Spain.
I absolutely, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Hard not to.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
It's, it's such a special place.
And so, I became the assistant director of an English academy out
there where I taught English through
Rupert Isaacson: You are how old at this point?
Christine Doran: I was, let's see.
I went out there at 19.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How have you become,
' Christine Doran: cause my sister owned her own company.
Rupert Isaacson: Ah,
Christine Doran: and I went from being a helper to quickly moving
up to being the assistant director.
You asked such good questions.
It's family.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Where you're sort of born into the union but you have no vote.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Got it.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: So, yeah, I lived with her for nine months and
then she happened to have a house about an hour outside the city.
And Okay.
I, I jumped at the chance to live on my own.
And I remember I was, one time I was in Madrid and I was like, oh my
gosh, what kind of life am I living?
Like, how blessed am I?
And I go to like, take in the air and I end up coughing, not breathing.
It was very air.
And at that moment I was like.
It's time to move out of the city.
I'm gonna need some fresh air again.
And
one of the first things I did while I was there was I looked up therapeutic centers
that were in the area and I happened to find this amazing woman named Maria Jose.
And she allowed me to exchange English lessons for her, teaching
me how to run a therapeutic center.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Christine Doran: And it was very eye-opening to me.
I had always had, when I was taught how to be around horses, it was very cowboy up.
You tell that horse what to do.
Mm-hmm.
And I was never taught the proper way to really fit tack
and just really make the horse.
Important.
And so it was very eye-opening for me to go, whoa, there's
a whole other world out here.
And so I stayed with her for those two and a half years that I was out in Juncos.
I, I went like weekly and worked with her.
And then I actually, after the first year, went back to Missouri, realized
Rupert Isaacson: One quick question.
Yeah.
Is Maria Jose still operating outside Madrid?
Christine Doran: I believe she is, but I haven't spoken to her in years.
Rupert Isaacson: What is the name of her place?
I'm, I'm just gonna feel a podcast
Christine Doran: now that you say that I'm gonna have to do some research.
I'm gonna have to go back into my emails and see what it
Rupert Isaacson: wants.
Okay.
Would you, because this is clearly someone I think we should talk to.
Yeah,
Christine Doran: absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Maria was a outside, what was the name of the town?
Christine Doran: Kos.
It's Y-U-N-C-O-S.
Rupert Isaacson: Kos.
Okay.
While you are telling us the rest going on, I'm just gonna
do Yeah, but Google Okay.
Christine Doran: Ahead.
Go.
That's great.
So I I actually went back home and I got there and I realized that
Missouri was just too small for me.
And I literally booked another ticket back out to Spain and hopped back across
the ocean again for another two years.
And then I, I really felt a calling to go back to school, start my own
business, and I absolutely would've stayed in Spain and done it.
I just could not handle seeing my sister running her own business that you would
go to one place, they would tell you, these are the rules, do this, this, and
this, and then you go to the next place and they're like, well, that's not it.
There's like no cohesiveness between places.
And so I was like, I don't wanna lie, hire a lawyer for every little thing
that I have to do with a business.
Yeah, yeah.
And so I decided to come back to the states.
Since I felt like I had outgrown my town in Missouri, I decided to set
up shop in the Chicagoland area.
Both of my parents are originally from here.
Okay.
And so I thought, you know, if I fail miserably, I've
got people to fall back on.
Thankfully I didn't.
So I, I ended up going on a blind date and meeting my husband and,
you know, rest is history there.
But we
Rupert Isaacson: I've met him a few times now and he has that slightly
bewildered look of a man who met a horsey girl and can't quite remember
what life is actually like now.
Yeah.
His
Christine Doran: mother tells me, she says.
I have no idea like how he actually got with you because you are just
everything opposite of what that man like could have possibly ever dreamed of.
She explains it so well.
She says that I have never colored inside the box in my entire life and
Matt doesn't even know that a box exists 'cause he colors so far inside belongs.
But opposites attract, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Christine Doran: It works for us.
So yeah, I moved back to the states and I started going to
university and I got an opportunity.
Rupert Isaacson: What'd you go to university to do?
Christine Doran: Marketing.
Okay.
Of all things because I knew I
Rupert Isaacson: wanted to.
Andy, if you're gonna go run a center though
Christine Doran: Yeah.
I figured I would need to know how to do things if I was gonna have my own company.
Yeah.
And I had the opportunity.
To work for a place called, excuse me, the Disability Resource center.
And I started out the executive director, she has cerebral palsy
and she needed someone to be her assistant to be her hands.
Mm-hmm.
And so I gotta see the inner workings of a 5 0 1 C3.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Christine Doran: And then the opportunity a couple years later came up for me to be
an advocate for people with disabilities.
And I loved that job.
I loved
Rupert Isaacson: it when you said the opportunity came up to be an
advocate, what does that mean?
Christine Doran: So they had a job opening that they needed another
advocate, and so I stepped away.
Rupert Isaacson: And what does it mean to be an advocate like that?
Christine Doran: So that is where you are like a social worker without the degree.
You have people coming in that may need housing, may need mental health services.
Okay.
There's a wide variety of you had people coming in that, you know, were
dealing with DCFS and they needed to know how to better themselves
that just didn't have the education.
Rupert Isaacson: CFS
Christine Doran: Yeah.
So that's like, department of Family Services.
So like when they come in, before they take your kids, they usually
try and keep you together and you have to follow certain things
in order to keep your children.
And so a lot of times it was lack of knowledge.
People didn't have tools on how to be a good parent, and that's
stuff that we would help them with.
And so it was a very rewarding, rewarding job.
But I found there were two things that were really disheartening.
There was no funding for people.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Christine Doran: And there were no programs for mental health.
And that started to weigh on me.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Christine Doran: So,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, because I guess the, the majority of people in that.
Family situation you'd be dealing with.
There would've been so many mental health issues there.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: A lot.
Yeah.
A lot of mental health.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Christine Doran: And it just really began to weigh on me that
I couldn't help these people.
Mm-hmm.
There was nowhere else to send them to.
Mm-hmm.
And I kept hearing a whisper, it's time to start your nonprofit.
Mm-hmm.
And I kept going.
Well, that's sweet, but I really like a steady paycheck.
So,
yes.
No kidding.
No thanks.
And God likes to knock me hard since I'm so thick.
Cutted.
And in October of 2014, I suffered a traumatic brain injury.
I was riding one of my horses and she loved to buck and I had been
riding her for like an hour and a half, and I had just gotten over
influenza and had a really bad day at work, and I was just gonna ride it
out, thought I'd try some new t and I was so weak that I couldn't even.
Adjust myself when my saddle started to slip that I started to go under
her and she was very green broke.
That if I would've gone under her, she would've killed me.
She would've trampled me.
And so that flight or fight response kicks in and I threw myself over her.
And when I did that, I caused shaken baby syndrome pretty much on myself, that my
brain rattled around different parts of my skull, and then my foot got stuck.
My right foot got stuck in the stirrup, and I knew if I didn't get it out by the
time I landed, that I would be dragged.
And so I used those precious moments to get my foot out and
just took a really hard landing.
And so, yeah.
I was wearing a riding vest.
I was wearing a helmet, but I suffered a compression injury on my right shoulder
and a compression injury to my right hip.
And then my head did not hit the ground, but the force of me
throwing myself did the damage.
And unfortunately the doctors that I didn't tell me how serious
it could be if I didn't lay low.
And so
Rupert Isaacson: I was Why do you think they didn't do that?
Christine Doran: I really think there wasn't a a real knowledge with TDIs.
It was really just like, oh, you've gotta, yes, they said traumatic
brain injury and not concussion, but nothing was explained to me.
No papers were given.
There was just a, but
Rupert Isaacson: they knew it was more than a concussion.
Christine Doran: They did know it was more than a concussion.
And I got told, well try and get into a neurologist.
They gave me a couple names and it took me, you know, I think three or
four weeks to get into a neurologist.
Mm-hmm.
And on my third week, my girlfriend from college got married.
And so I went out and I drank like a fish, right.
And danced the night away.
And I remember getting into the car that evening and telling my husband,
I said, something's very wrong.
It doesn't feel right.
And he said, you're drunk, go to sleep.
And what I didn't realize, realize is that the first three weeks that you
suffer a concussion, uhhuh, or a TB, I don't think that it has to just be a TBI.
You could just have, you know, your whiplash concussion.
Those first three weeks are incredibly, incredibly important to not jostle
your brain, to not have any alcohol.
That you can make it severely worse, which is what happened in my case.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Christine Doran: And so I went from struggling to.
Barely making it.
I
Rupert Isaacson: How were you struggling before?
Christine Doran: It was more of really intense headaches, just
feeling like I was a bit sluggish.
Like if you have some brain fog,
Rupert Isaacson: a bit under watery.
Christine Doran: But not, I wasn't in a state where I was like, oh,
well something's severely wrong here.
It was more like, oh, okay, I got a little bit of whiplash, I'll be fine.
It's just gonna take me a little bit longer to do my work at work.
I'll have to take breaks with my bad headaches.
And then after I went drinking and dancing, I just jostled that brain so
much that it was like I just crashed downward where I went into work the
next day and they ended up taking me to the ER because my face was swollen.
And, my boss asked me to do an Excel sheet of just putting together like, I dunno,
it was something about like school's names and their contact information.
And six hours later I didn't have one name done.
I could not figure out how to get what I needed to from my head onto the computer.
And when she came in and looked at me, she immediately put me in a car.
Rupert Isaacson: you danced and you drank and then,
Christine Doran: and then it all went to
Rupert Isaacson: health.
You face swelled and they rushed you to hospital.
Yeah.
So what happened?
Christine Doran: There was no bleeding in my brain or anything.
It simply was bruising in different parts of my brain is what they said,
and that's why they said it resembled like the Shaken Baby syndrome.
But it had huge lasting effects that for a year I couldn't drive.
Okay.
My whole personality changed where I think I'm a pretty kind person and
you would not have wanted to know me.
During that time.
I, I had major anger issues.
I was very impulsive.
There was no filter.
So I just said what I thought in that moment I had such hatred towards people.
Which I knew wasn't me.
But to be honest, I couldn't give two cares that it wasn't me.
It was such a weird space to be in that I would look at Matt as he walked out for
work every day, and I'd be like, well, if he dies in a car accident, oh well.
And then I would have like 1% of the time I would break down crying.
Not that I actually felt love for him, but I knew somewhere I did.
And I would cry to him saying, I think you're gonna leave me.
And I don't.
I was so open saying, I don't have feelings for you right now, but I know
what we had before my accident and I'm afraid this might be the end for us.
And so we went and we spoke to the neurologist about it and he said.
You know, this is gonna be the biggest test of your guys' lives.
That Matt, either you'll hold out and one day she'll wake up and she'll
remember she loves you again or you'll leave before that happens.
And it's really,
Rupert Isaacson: did you have kids at this point?
Christine Doran: No, we did not.
Rupert Isaacson: Lucky you.
Yes.
Christine Doran: Very, very fortunate.
'cause you hear some of those stories that people get these head injuries.
Mm.
And then they become different people.
And I did, I was, I was so hateful and had so many horrible thoughts in my mind
consistently that I started listening to Christian music because I thought,
it's pretty hard to say really horrible things if you have Jesus love and
music playing in your ear constantly.
And I hated that music.
I was just like, it made me cranky to listen to it.
But I could remember that that wasn't, I didn't listen to Christian music
beforehand, but I had nothing against it.
But I was trying to come up with ways.
'cause no one had any.
Insight for me of how I could get through this.
Rupert Isaacson: What was interesting though is that despite the fact that
you were, you said you didn't give a shit, you clearly did give a shit
about not giving a shit otherwise you wouldn't have looked for strategies.
So for
Christine Doran: strategies,
Rupert Isaacson: what, where was, can you describe
that, that little part, that 1% part must have been more active than
just occasionally where you wouldn't have resorted to these strategies.
Right.
Must have been there
Christine Doran: back.
It must have been there more than I thought, because I
wanted my old life back.
I was not happy with what I had.
I may have been.
Were you
Rupert Isaacson: able to work?
I was not.
Okay.
Christine Doran: I was not.
And, and the, the worst part was, is that people kept saying, you know,
you can't play this card forever.
You need to go back to work.
Right.
And so it was like four or five months in, I tried going back to work because
I was feeling such intense pressure, but I literally had to relearn how
to touch my fingertips to my thumbs.
I lost that coordination.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Christine Doran: And, and to try and explain to someone when
I looked just like I do now.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm
Christine Doran: But on the inside I felt so broken.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Christine Doran: And no one gave me any space to heal there because I looked fine.
Rupert Isaacson: Have you subsequently done much research into TBIs?
For example, I had an ex-girlfriend whose son fell down the stairs and
he became kind of semi criminal.
You hear about other people having TBIs who wake up and can suddenly like
play the grand piano or speak French.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But why do you think it is that we hear more stories about
it bringing out a massively demonic or negative side of the human psyche?
Why is that, do you think?
Why not?
In infinitude of, of different responses.
My
Christine Doran: my thought, and I don't know if I'm right or not, but
my thought is, is that we love to push so much down where we try and
mold ourselves into something that is perceived as what people want.
Mm.
That when you hit your head, that all goes out the window.
That's not an importance anymore.
That there's nothing holding any of that back.
That it almost just kind of, I don't know.
I felt like it just bubbled out of me.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean Right.
But, but you would think that as much as that, as much as
we repress, we express, right?
Yeah.
So that there's also a lot of, and, and not everything we repress
is, I'm just curious about this.
Not everything we repress is negative.
Like sometimes we repress immensely joyful sides of ourselves, or immensely
spontaneous sides of ourselves.
Why do you think more of those things didn't come out?
Christine Doran: Yeah, it's a really good question.
I'm truly, I'm gonna have to really think about this.
Rupert Isaacson: It's intriguing, isn't it?
Christine Doran: It's really intriguing of why I had such a negative side
come out of me when and, and that you hear so many more negative
sides come out of people when they,
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm actually doing a little Google here.
Why do TBIs?
Because, and the neurologist didn't have anything?
Christine Doran: No.
Unfortunately my neurologist was so old school.
I wish I would've been in my right mind.
Right.
That I would've gone.
We have world renowned doctors here.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I didn't go to one of those.
My, you know, the local hospital sent me to a local guy here who,
once I had actually started to heal a few years later, I had heard like,
oh my gosh, he's so old school.
He didn't, I wasn't putting any type of therapies for my head.
Nothing.
I was, I was even told not to take ibuprofen.
And the headaches that I had were worse than childbirth.
Like, they were so intense and they were never ending for me that I used
to just sit with like an ice pack and a tennis ball behind the back of my head
because the pressure was so immense.
And, and here I was told not to take anything.
And so I was just listening because I remember going to him and
repeating myself every single time.
And I would take a recorder with me and I would take a notebook
with me and saying like, I, I can't function as a human being.
What do I do?
And there was never, it was just, well, time.
You just need time.
That's all you can do.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm,
Christine Doran: I'm And then finally, yeah, go
Rupert Isaacson: ahead.
You know, keep going and then I'm gonna read what
Christine Doran: No, they ended up kicking me out of like my
physical therapy because Okay.
The shoulder and the hip were healing, but I had so many visual issues from it
that the floors would move up and down.
Okay.
The walls would come back and forth, that they actually kicked me out because I
wasn't having enough improvement that the insurance wouldn't continue to pay for it.
Okay.
And so instead of them sending me that, now I know that there's specific
therapies for traumatic brain injuries.
Like my mother suffered a traumatic brain injury last year, and they
had her in therapy specifically for that, for months on end.
I was never given any of those options.
And so
Rupert Isaacson: was that because of your insurance company or just 'cause less
Christine Doran: back then?
No, I had, I had the most amazing insurance that you could ever
ask for when I worked for DRC.
I truly think that it wasn't until a few years after my TBI, that the NFL
really started talking about TBIs.
Ah, and I think that was the big shift is that suddenly it took a, a forefront
that they were seeing big famous people having these different things happening
with their head from concussions.
And it started to be a spotlight and things started
to change within the system,
Rupert Isaacson: alongside the really negative behaviors.
Were you ever violent?
Christine Doran: No, I wasn't violent.
I just thought horrible things in my head.
Rupert Isaacson: And then the question then, why do you
think you weren't violent?
Because some people do get violent, and then the second thing is
were you did, did you have as much depression?
Or were you not depressed?
Were you actually more stimulated?
Christine Doran: No, I was severely depressed.
Okay.
My anxiety to this day, I still have to work on my anxiety.
Okay.
I did a lot of therapy for it to be able to control it.
And I truly think my saving grace was horses,
Rupert Isaacson: almost certainly.
Right.
Christine Doran: That's most
Rupert Isaacson: mind you, not that they don't shake your brain.
Christine Doran: Right.
I mean, she, she caused it, but really it was my fault.
I shouldn't have even gotten on.
And it really was a turning point for me because I couldn't drive for a year.
I didn't ride a horse for at least nine months.
I just didn't have the coordination for it.
Mm-hmm.
And so I started really researching groundwork and how to have a relationship
with a horse instead of me telling the horse what to do, how to have
that true partnership with them.
And that was a game changer for me.
I felt like that I had had so many moments where.
I got my horse to suddenly listen to me without even touching
her, just using vocal cues.
And it was this eye-opening experience for me that this horse, that when I would
get on her, would just run and not stop.
Suddenly I could get her to turn and turn different directions just by a vocal cue.
And I was like, I'm onto something now.
This is what I wanna do.
And it was really the beginning change for Triple H that I ended up starting.
My, my injury was in 2014, and then 2015 I started Triple H Tran.
Okay.
And that was the beginning of it, that I could no longer do my actual job.
And God forced me into Triple H.
And one thing that my neurologist said was, be outside as much as possible.
Be with nature as much as possible.
And
Rupert Isaacson: and why did he say that?
Did he give you a reason?
Christine Doran: He just told me that the mind does well being
grounded and, you know, I get it, like I do reiki and everything.
When you're grounded, you just do so much better that I, I think he had something
to it of not having that overstimulation of the lights, everything going on.
There has to be something to it in that way of, I couldn't go into a grocery
store for over a year because when you walk in, yeah, there's the bright lights
that could affect you, but what you don't understand is how much your brain
processes without you realizing it.
So I would walk in and I would be like, cash register woman with blonde
hair, blue pants, Snickers kit cap, and anything that I saw, my brain was
registering but screaming it at me.
Hmm.
That my brain would get to this point where everything would just go black
that I couldn't process anymore.
And I would just be left standing there like an idiot.
I couldn't move.
It was like the brain out.
It sounds, it
Rupert Isaacson: sounds like what Rowan, my son describes
in his early years of autism.
Christine Doran: It could be, could be very similar.
And maybe that's why we're so good with our programs is because
I had such a sensory processing.
Just everything was all out of whack.
And then I had a major processing delay where someone would wanna give me their
phone number and if they said like, seven
zero, that still sounded like someone was going seven zero.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Christine Doran: I couldn't process it, that I needed the time.
And it was unbelievably frustrating to know what I wanted to say and
no one giving me the time to get it out because silence is awkward.
And what I say now is silence is key.
That we give each person that walks through our doors the amount of time
that they need to be able to communicate with us and not what society expects
a normal time to be, to communicate.
And I think it's what makes us so powerful is that I really pride myself
in teaching my staff and my volunteers to really take the time to get to know this
person on a personal level and realize that there's no awkwardness with pauses.
That that true growth can happen with those pauses.
Because for me to try and get something out, someone would say
it again to me and I would start the processing all over again.
And I would just scream explicits in my mind too, that like, shut up.
I'm working so hard on the inside.
Rupert Isaacson: What, how could you with all of that.
Problematic stuff happening in your brain.
Take on the complexities of opening and starting to run an equine
nonprofit, because then you're going to need to deal with people.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of, one of the most
asinine things, I think one hears horse people say often dog people
too, is I love horses, I hate people.
And it's like, yeah, that does not help horses, because horses
are social animals who mm-hmm.
Interestingly enough, love people.
Same with dogs.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And thrive when there's good human tribe, domestic
forces and do not thrive when there's dysfunctional human tribe.
And they certainly don't want the pressure of just one monkey, you know?
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: On them.
They, they, they want diffuse.
You know, diluted personalities in the same way that, you know, kids do
or whatever, that takes the village to raise a child, blah, blah, blah.
So, you know, I know when you are at the helm of an organization that has
that number of variables and you gotta, you know, chase the funding and all
of that, how on earth could you do that with what was going on with your
Christine Doran: brain?
It started very small.
Very small.
My focus was training the horses first, where I went, okay, I can
do stuff on the ground, so I'm gonna do stuff on the ground.
Rupert Isaacson: So you used it as your own therapy effectively?
Christine Doran: Yes.
It was my own therapy and then I found that I could really understand the,
there was a couple girls that I had made like a Facebook page that was
something that I took me a while to do.
Everything was like slow motion for me.
Nothing came quickly.
Rupert Isaacson: Doesn't sound like it.
You had a, you had a, an injury one year and you opened the nonprofit the next.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How did that slow.
Was that slow for Christie?
Christine Doran: Well, it was very slow once I got started with it,
because then I couldn't be at my job, so I had to come up with something.
I was like, what am I gonna do?
Because I can't, there was so much pressure from the people
that I knew saying, get with it.
Get it together.
You look fine.
That it was, I felt this burden upon me instead of choosing healing, like,
of just being still, I felt this huge pressure to get going on something.
Sure.
And so,
really?
Yeah.
And so I I really feel like the horses were such an integral part and God was so
good at putting people, when I made that Facebook post, I had a mom with two girls
who said, are you looking for volunteers?
And the two girls were twins.
And, they had some sensory processing disorders some on the autism spectrum,
and I related so well to those girls.
And I think it's because there was so much inside that was going on with me
that was relatable that I was, I was on a level almost with them on some things.
And the thing that we really connected over was horses.
And so they started on the ground with me too, learning what I was doing.
It was trial and error.
And as I started to get my feet of like, okay, this feels, I feel
like I have a handle on this.
I feel like I can, it, it was to the point when I started out that I couldn't
even watch my horse go in a circle.
I couldn't, my brain just couldn't move that quickly.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Christine Doran: And it was like these little baby steps that I was doing.
Eventually these girls took lessons.
And so I started out with three kids.
Just three kids in a lesson.
And then I, yeah, you know, you say, I, I was moving very slow.
I know you're joshing with me.
But then the next year, like in 2015 late 2015 I got pregnant
and that was a huge surprise.
Rupert Isaacson: So things must have improved between you and, Yes.
Your husband?
Christine Doran: Yes.
I liked to, yeah.
Or I just liked sex.
You know, I don't remember.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, here's a question.
Had your sex drive also gone during the really bad time, or was that always there?
And then if it was always there, did you then reject him?
Or did you still want that with him, but not the emotional connection?
Christine Doran: You know what was strange is I wanted more sex,
but it was because I was trying to find an emotional connection.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And then getting frustrated when you couldn't
Christine Doran: and I couldn't.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so there, so there must have been more
than 1% of you then Right.
Looking for that?
Otherwise you'd have rejected it Completely.
Christine Doran: Rejected it completely,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's interesting.
So that, again, that part of your subconscious brain clearly knew.
Just before we go further on with Yeah.
I just want to read you what I got about this.
No, let
Christine Doran: me hear it
Rupert Isaacson: because I think it, it is helpful.
So I, I typed in why do TBIs often bring out negative behaviors?
And it says because they damage the specific, I mean, this is ai obviously
they damage the specific parts of the brain, responsible for regulating
emotions, impulse control, and social behavior, the frontal lobe damage.
Reduces the breaking mechanism for so SelfControl emotional regulation.
We know this, that it makes you blunt risky behavior as well.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And the amygdala and limbic system damage to those areas
can cause intense sudden emotional outbursts, such as unwarranted fear rage
or rapid shifts between extreme emotions.
Then there's neurochemical changes because if the injury disrupts
neurotransmitters, it affects how the brain produces information,
perceives threats causing the brain to overstimulate or react defensively.
It's so interesting.
It sounds so like the early you know, forms of, of extreme autism, but
what's interesting to me is it still doesn't, to me quite, and it says
ego egocentric behavior, but, but it doesn't quite answer why it can't also
bring out the opposite effect of over.
Overly positive or overly enthusiastic.
Yeah.
But maybe it can, and maybe it's just that that's not perceived as a
problem, so maybe goes under the radar.
And it also made me think just quickly, you know, back to sort of medieval
history and ancient history and so on, what, you know, psychopathic behavior.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Among sort of knights and warlords.
And so I guess if you're getting just whacked on the head so massively all
the time falling from your horse bash, da, da da, that there must have been so
many people walking around like this.
And then you could like put a whole city to the sword, right?
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And not give a shit.
And then I've often wondered too, you know, why are so many people
in the horse world, you know.
So like this and that, and it does make me think, well, a lot of us
have fallen on our heads a lot.
Yeah.
A lot of my dysfunctional behaviors, you know, down to that.
Yeah.
You know, I've, I've fallen off a lot of horses, you know, so
it's just, it's inter these are interesting questions, aren't they?
Christine Doran: Yeah.
What was really interesting is I, I never woke up and loved my husband again.
Okay.
It
Rupert Isaacson: was
Christine Doran: that I fell in love with him again.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you got to experience it a second time.
Christine Doran: I got to experience it a second time, and now we laugh that
when I'm really angry with him, I'm like, well, damn it, I chose you twice.
This is my fault.
Rupert Isaacson: You
Christine Doran: know, because you have to have humor in something
Rupert Isaacson: that, it's hard to imagine being angry with your
husband and as, as I've met him, and what can you possibly ever
do that could make you angry?
I mean, he's,
Christine Doran: oh, well, he can drive me really insane.
He's very good at
it.
Sure.
Your wife is serious.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, yeah, but I mean, I think with me the reason's
a bit more obvious, you know?
I mean, I'm, I'm, no, I'm
Christine Doran: very blessed.
I have a very good husband.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, no, you do.
I mean, he, he,
Christine Doran: how many people can say that he does the
laundry, he does the dishes?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I actually do a lot of that stuff too, but
Christine Doran: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, I can just be very obnoxious.
Whereas I think your husband is much less obnoxious than me.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So it is just hard to imagine him triggering, you know?
Right.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: And he's a very good man.
Rupert Isaacson: Humans are funny, but.
Can you describe, again, we're gonna go into a nonprofit, but I
think everyone would be intrigued to know what did it feel like?
How was it different to fall in love with the same person the second time?
Question one, did you remember how it felt to fall in love with him the first time?
And so was there a funny part of your brain contrasting and comparing?
And then the second question is, how did it differ?
Christine Doran: No, there wasn't a like, oh my gosh, this is so different.
It truly, I think, was that he was so steady in how our life was and was so
consistent with me that I, I truly think I fell in love with him the same way.
That I did beforehand.
Okay.
Because he is so kind and truly wants to see the best in someone.
Rupert Isaacson: That's what I, he's such a kind dude.
How can you possibly get so
Christine Doran: angry
Rupert Isaacson: with him?
Christine Doran: I mean, I'm,
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm,
Christine Doran: I'm, how many people can say that?
Like, their husband lets their wife go live out her dream
and doesn't, you know Yeah.
Bring in anything to support things, you know, that, but he believes
in what I do and is always for me, putting money back into scholarships
instead of bringing it into our house.
Or, you know, like there's so much that he sees the good
that's happening to other people.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Christine Doran: That he is always for me doing this.
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Yeah.
There's no question.
He's a very good man.
I can definitely see why, why you fell in love with him twice.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But so it's, it's just interesting to me.
So you, you didn't feel it was a different experience.
You felt it was perhaps the same experience as Revisited?
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Do you know?
I didn't even realize I was falling in love with him.
It was just one day I woke up and I was like, I kissed him
and I was like, oh my gosh.
Like, I really feel it's not just chemistry.
I can feel that love between that kiss.
Mm-hmm.
That it was just like this eyeopening moment for me of like, everything that
he's doing is making me want him more.
I wanna be with this man.
But it wasn't a, oh, I've got back what I had.
No, it was this very slow and steady months on end Okay.
Of him just being consistent with me.
Rupert Isaacson: And then back to when you had the TBI and were in
the sort of grip of the negatives did, had, did the chemistry remain?
Christine Doran: The chemistry did remain, I still had chemistry with him.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Well that was lucky.
I
Christine Doran: just didn't care if he went and got hit by a bus after chemistry.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Crazy.
But, you know, I guess that is the power of chemistry, isn't it?
Because if it also kept you together enough
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That it didn't turn into an abusive codependence.
Right.
Because you did come out of it.
But maybe if you hadn't had that chemistry.
You guys
Christine Doran: might not have made it.
Might not
Rupert Isaacson: have made it.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: I hadn't thought about it, but it's true.
It could possibly, because there is still so much of, I, you know, I
had such short term memory loss for so long that I don't know if you've
ever seen the movie 51st Dates.
Mm-hmm.
But I was not, Lucy, there's a patient in there called Ten Second Tom, and
that's who I was, that I would have to, we lived in a very tiny condo when I had
my injury, and I would put on a sticky note going to Kitchen to get water, and
then every foot I would put a sticky note, and by the time I made it halfway
down the hall, I'd forget what I was doing and I would have to follow my
sticky notes back to my original message.
Rupert Isaacson: That's like smoking weed.
Christine Doran: Isn't that?
Isn't that crazy?
Yeah.
And so I started teaching myself that, trying to make my brain go further,
that then I would start going, okay, well how far can I go before I forget?
Wow.
And I'm going to write that down on a sticky note again on the wall
and then see how far can I go?
Before, I can't remember what I'm doing.
How
Rupert Isaacson: long did that phase last For?
Christine Doran: Months.
Months.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
Christine Doran: And I still have a lot of long-term memory is just gone.
Like I it's weird.
Small things are weird.
Like I still with my oldest sister's name, like I forgot how to, I
even forgot my siblings names.
When I first had it, that there were several I couldn't remember.
And to this day I still have to think about mind.
There
Rupert Isaacson: are 10 of them.
Yeah,
Christine Doran: there are 10 of them.
Right.
But I would, I still like, will have to make myself think before I write Jennifer,
or when I'm doing Pilates, I am still having to work very hard to make my
opposite leg and my opposite hand go up.
Okay.
That there are still things that here we are, you know, nearly 12 years
later that my mind is still working on.
And, and my long-term memory, a lot of that is gone where like my college
stays and stuff, that there's a lot I can't remember, my friends tell me.
I was so much fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, generally one is so much fun that one cannot remember.
Yeah, exactly.
But here's another question.
Yeah.
You never fell out of love with horses during that time?
No.
Did you, did you cease to give a shit about your horse?
Christine Doran: Yes.
Okay.
I actually at one point but I think it was more after the beginning phase.
No.
But when I had my son that being mixed in with postpartum depression and anxiety on
top of the head injury, I nearly gave them all up that my husband is the one that
said, you will regret this for the rest of your life and I cannot allow you to do it.
Send your horses to Missouri where it's cheaper.
And when you are back in your right mind, we'll bring them back up and
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, so, so we are going to, we're going to now go forward in the story.
Back to that, yeah.
One last question though, given that you know, that, I know that
we know, know there's a lot of neuroscience based around when your
neurologist said go out in nature.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But he didn't explicitly talk you through the
sensory stuff that we now know about, for example, through movement method
and how that fires the amygdala.
Yeah.
And he didn't tell you about BDNF, you know, brain derived neurotrophic factor.
Yeah.
How neuroplasticity works with novel movement and nature provides novel
movement all the time, of course.
And so on and so on.
Kinji cells, all this stuff that, it's surprising to me that he
was a brain dude, that he didn't spell it out for you like that.
Yeah.
Why do he didn't?
Christine Doran: I don't know, to be honest.
I'm just, maybe he thought that I wouldn't be able to comprehend it anyways, that
I was just sitting there muttering the same things that I kept asking
him of like, when will I, like Matt?
How can I start to get back to work?
When will my head stop hurting?
Like I think my, my thought process was so much smaller that maybe he possibly
just thought, it's not worth repeating this to this woman because I remember that
they did a an IQ test on me and I scored very low and I let them know that before
that I, I had a very decent IQ that, you know, things came very easy to me.
I had a photographic memory that I could memorize an entire play in
one night and feed people lines.
Like I now know why people were so incredibly frustrated
with me in high school.
'cause I never worked for anything and I got everything and that did not come back.
So everything that I do.
I work extremely hard for that.
I had to truly grieve myself like I died and that I came back as a new person
because I was so different after my head injury that it was making me sick to think
about what I had, and I felt just stupid.
I felt like I was just this absolute nimrod idiot walking
around and I had to tell myself,
Rupert Isaacson: why did you give a shit if you didn't give
a shit about other things?
Why did you care about that?
Christine Doran: I dunno, I, I don't think I had ever noticed how easy
things were and suddenly when I couldn't do something, it was like
the whole rug got ripped out from underneath me and I lost all identity.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And back, I guess probably to the straight up toddlerdom type frustration and not
being able to express oneself, right?
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Now I want to jump ahead.
So you start this nonprofit, it goes slow.
Your, your recovery's coming, especially groundwork.
And we know now, again, we talked about BDNF and kinji cells.
Nothing builds that, like working in hand with a horse, right?
Because you've got, yeah.
You've got to operate yourself.
You've gotta operate the horse.
You've got to, there's just so many more moving parts in a funny way
than there are when one's riding.
And the relationship is more direct.
Okay?
So everything's going well and you get pregnant and you have
a son and this is fantastic.
And then you get hit by postpartum.
Yes.
And you wanna give it all up.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
I
Rupert Isaacson: I,
Christine Doran: I didn't even love my son for 10 months.
Rupert Isaacson: So do you think that was linked to the TBI?
Christine Doran: I think so.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Christine Doran: I don't think it would've been as strong.
And that was so weird for me because I love babies and I
was so excited to have a baby.
And I remember him being born and placed on my chest and feeling nothing.
And no one's saying that that sometimes happens.
You know, that women always think that they have to have this amazing moment.
And yes, I've had that moment with one of my babies, but only one out of the three
did I have that instantaneous moment.
But it just, it didn't slowly come back.
It just kept getting worse that I told my doctor that I felt like
glass, that if someone touched me I would shatter into a million pieces.
And so then they went trying to find medication for me what would help.
I closed down the barn 'cause I had a boarding barn with it that at six weeks
I knew I couldn't, I couldn't function.
So I closed it down.
I re-homed some of the horses that I had.
I kept the the three that were the most important to me, that I
really had a deep connection with, and moved those down to Missouri.
And then I picked up a nannying job to pay for them because I didn't
wanna get rid of 'em, but I couldn't
Rupert Isaacson: because you love kids so much,
Christine Doran: right?
I know, right.
But I couldn't do computer work, so I was really stuck between this
rock and a hard place of needing to come up with six, 700 bucks a month.
Yeah.
And having this brand new baby and not knowing where do I, what do I do with it?
Yeah.
That I didn't have my family around.
And I remember my therapist saying to my husband, I don't think you understand
what a bad state your wife is in.
Maybe you should let her go to Missouri.
And he was like, no, I don't wanna be away from my kid.
But I think it would've probably been the best thing for me
to have a tribe around me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Christine Doran: Where instead we did
Rupert Isaacson: you not have imported them?
Could you not have asked your mom and people to come up?
Christine Doran: My mom was still working at the time.
And saw my sisters were.
And so no one really understood what I was going through.
Mm-hmm.
And then it was just a really weird time that we had sold our condo
three weeks before I had my son.
And then the other house that we were supposed to be moving into kept getting
pushed back that we had to move in with my uncle for a couple months.
Then I moved into my in-laws house and things were very strained with
my, I have a amazing relationship with my in-laws now, but my
mother-in-law and I were really, you know, that was like her precious
baby boy that now had a wife and you
Rupert Isaacson: didn't love him
Christine Doran: and I didn't love him that she would come down.
And so we were staying and I, I would stay in the basement every day.
I just wanted to be in the dark with the baby.
Yeah.
And she would come down nonstop to make sure that I didn't commit suicide.
Rupert Isaacson: And why did you wanna be with the baby if you didn't love the baby?
Christine Doran: He was such a weird thing.
I can't even explain it.
I wanted him next to me, but I, it was almost like I, I kept telling
myself that I would fake it until I made it that I never wanted, wanted.
So again,
Rupert Isaacson: a little bit like when you have the TBI, that subconscious part
of you kicking in that says, I know this isn't right, so I'm gonna persevere.
Christine Doran: I'm gonna persevere and do it.
Okay.
And so I truly, I faked loving him.
I gave him all the kisses, you know, nursed him until he was almost a year old.
But had no connection until 10 months.
Something clicked at 10 months, and I was just obsessed with him.
But it wasn't until 10 months.
Rupert Isaacson: How interesting.
Okay.
So then, so you go through this, and then at what point do you
resuscitate your nonprofit and your,
Christine Doran: so it was pretty much around that 10 month
mark where I, I was like, okay.
I, I wanna find me again.
It was just, it was really weird.
It was like a light clicked and I was gung-ho about finding
me again and pursuing me.
And so I had one of my little ponies when I was struggling so badly with my
brain injury where I was having trouble being coordinated and walking straight.
I went and I grabbed the pony that I had had, I had it at a friend's
house and I went and I retrained him to be my service animal.
And when I was with him, I noticed my anxiety was down.
I could like control my level of emotions more.
And so I had him everywhere with me that if I
Rupert Isaacson: would like the emotional support animal.
Yeah.
You didn't teach him to drive an Uber.
Christine Doran: Right.
You know what he did is he was so wonderful that.
When I was so unstable and stuff that I would bring him into like the
grocery store with me and hold onto him
Rupert Isaacson: really?
Christine Doran: And he, I, he would pack all my food, you know, I'd put
it on around like a circ single on him and I'd go and check out and
then put it back in those bags.
And then he would jump into the back of my truck, walk into my house with me.
I put away my groceries and then he lived in my backyard.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Where is this horse now?
Christine Doran: He's still here.
So, he, now, since he was my service animal, I had to teach
him how to be potty trained.
And so now he goes into schools in nursing homes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So he does that job.
How you teach him to be potty trained
Christine Doran: takes a long time.
You literally sit out in the yard with your child, wait for a horse to pee,
and as he's peeing, you say, go potty.
You click and you give him a treat.
And now when we go to events, I can have him get out of the car, go to
a mulch pile or the grass, and I tell him to go potty and he pees.
Rupert Isaacson: What about poo?
Christine Doran: What I have found is it's really difficult not to get
a horse to poop because if they have eaten, so I don't allow him to eat
for an hour before we go somewhere.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And
Christine Doran: I find that by not allowing him to eat
for that hour, he never poops
Rupert Isaacson: because I had a horse which called Clue who we used
to ride a quarter horse who used to take him into all kinds of buildings.
And, and I remember riding him onto like a dance floor, crowded dance
floor in a, in a club in Austin and onto the stage of the musicians.
And we did all kinds of crazy things with Clue.
He was amazing.
He was like the ambassador, you know?
Yeah.
Never once ped.
And it was after like, I think I took him into a building twice and we had
all the scoopers ready and he didn't.
And he didn't.
And I, I thought, I think he's getting it.
Yeah.
And I just had this faith after a while that he wouldn't and he won't.
And he never did.
Yeah.
He never won.
Christine Doran: I used to have a little bag that I would
Rupert Isaacson: put
Christine Doran: on him.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
A question too about horses, the horse that threw you, what became of that horse?
Christine Doran: Which one?
Rupert Isaacson: The horse that threw you.
The what Didn't throw you the horse that you had the accident with.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
She's here.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
She's with
Christine Doran: me.
Yeah.
She is my heart horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
Christine Doran: I love her pieces.
She is the alpha of the herd.
Okay.
And that she is the one that she got released.
Rupert Isaacson: Did I meet her?
Christine Doran: You did.
She's my buckskin.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Okay,
Christine Doran: Missy.
Yep.
So
Rupert Isaacson: she doesn't exhibit tho that, those extremes of behavior now.
Christine Doran: No.
No, but she truly was.
I like to say that she made me grow as an individual and as a horse
person, that she wasn't going to let me slide with what I knew she was
gonna make me learn new tactics that were more beneficial to everyone.
Rupert Isaacson: It's great that you, you, you managed to not reject or that,
you know, your husband didn't insist like, okay, this horse is dangerous.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that they, she now has her, her place in the therapy program.
That's, that's fantastic.
Christine Doran: Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so you're in love, you fall in love with your son.
You fall, you fall in love with your husband.
Then you fall outta love with your son.
You fall back in up with your son.
You, you've got this, still got the heart horse.
Who caused the TBI thing in the first place?
God, we horse people are strange.
Christine Doran: Right?
Rupert Isaacson: Then, you know, it's funny,
Christine Doran: I lost my whole identity and created a new
one, but this horse will stay,
Rupert Isaacson: I think.
I think we should, I think that should be the title of this.
Why are horse people crazy?
We finally have the answer because we've all taken too many TBIs.
Alright, so now the nonprofit is beginning, at what point are you
starting like the full on rescue?
Christine Doran: Yeah, so we had done in 20, like 16, probably the middle
of 2016 I really started to find forces where they were finding me.
People were starting to say, Hey, do you think you could take this horse on?
And I was doing well enough by then I started to bring more kiddos into
my program that I needed more horses.
And so I thought, okay, I'll take 'em on.
Let me see if I can rehab 'em, you know, and, and I started really testing
out what I had learned with Missy when I had my TBI and started trying these
tactics on horses and going, wow.
I'm getting so much further and I'm not having these issues when
I'm riding 'cause I'm solving all the problems on the ground.
And it just kept building up from there that by the time 2018
came along, I had grown so much that I had moved several barns.
'cause I kept outgrowing them.
And the barn that I was at, the manager said, why are you here?
You're paying more and board than you are for a mortgage.
And I said, yeah, but my husband said he would divorce me if I ever
had my business in the backyard and I really wanna stay married.
So she's like, there is literally a place less than five minutes from this barn.
You need to look at it.
It just, you know, it's been for sale for a while.
They keep taking it down, putting it back up.
You've gotta look at this place.
And I said, no, don't even send it to me.
Don't do it.
And of course she sent it to me.
Okay.
And I look at it and I'm like, oh my gosh, I love this place.
And so I say to my husband, would you go and just look at it with me?
Just look, that's all I wanna do is look, we don't, we don't
have to actually do this.
And he said that he went just to appease me and to really shut
me up, is what he has told me.
And then he got here and he couldn't find one thing that he
didn't love about the property.
And the property was not made to be like.
A therapeutic ranch in, anyway, the, the driveway was like carriage size.
The driveway ended at the house.
The barn was had a basketball court in it.
It had a loft rooms.
I mean, it was just, it was not met for horses.
There was a stall barn, but it flooded really badly.
And I loved it.
I wanted it.
And so he said, well, let's just go to the bank.
I don't even think we can afford this place.
I said, okay.
And it ended up being that we were approved for the exact amount that
they were selling the house for.
Rupert Isaacson: How interesting.
Christine Doran: And so we put in an offer and the guy didn't
wanna budge on the price.
He was like, no, you don't get anything with it.
I want the price I want.
And so we were like, well, you know what?
We really love it.
We'll, we'll pay him full price.
Fine.
Yeah, sure.
And, at the very last minute, like the last week before closing, our
bank decided they wanted one more.
Oh, what is it called?
When they, they see how much your house is worth?
The, the name's escaping me.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
The valuation.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
So they came out and they said it was 20,000 less than
what he was selling it for.
And we thought he was gonna walk away from it.
But his wife by then had found her perfect home and she told
him, screw you, we're moving.
Okay.
And so we ended up here and that really allowed us to blossom was at
the end of 2018 and allowed me to really grow in the way I wanted to.
And I had no restrictions by other borders meeting the arena, and that
it just allowed us to flourish that.
Then we started getting horses from auction for slaughter.
And then and how did that
Rupert Isaacson: happen?
How, how did you, how did you end up getting horses from that?
Christine Doran: So there was a guy about four hours south of here that someone
introduced me to, and he has a meat truck that gets delivered and he has 10 days
to sell whatever's on that meat truck.
And so he auctions those horses off and whatever gets sold, gets sold and
whatever doesn't loads back up on the meat truck and heads for slaughter.
Rupert Isaacson: And why does he get these horses?
What's, what's the, what's the infrastructure?
I think a lot of people don't, under don't understand this, it's worth going into,
so one often hears, oh, this horse was a kill pen horse, but what's a kill pen?
Right.
What do people mean when they say that?
So you really know this from the inside.
This is actually not my world at all.
Like I've, I've definitely taken horses that people have said,
I'm gonna put this horse down.
And I'm like, okay, fine, I'll take him.
Yeah.
So it's happened to me a couple of times and they've always turned
out to be fabulous, but I've never.
Rehomed horses from a kill pen.
Yeah.
Just because horses have never come to me that way.
So I've always been a little bit intrigued by what do people actually mean by that?
So can you Yeah.
Just talk us through the infrastructure whereby this man receives that meat
truck and how these horses end up on this meat truck in the first place.
Christine Doran: Well, and I don't think that people realize that
there's such a demand for horse meat.
Okay.
That's why it exists.
So, they used to allow in a couple states within the United
States to slaughter horses, and that stopped over a decade ago.
And so the, the numbers started to drop because you have to go to Mexico
or to Canada to slaughter a horse.
But it went from like, I think 120,000 a year to, I think last year it was a
little over 20,000 horses got slaughtered.
But zoos buy the meat up like that because it's such high protein meat.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Christine Doran: So there is always a demand for the meat there.
But also there are places in Europe that eat horse meat.
And so, I mean, I would
Rupert Isaacson: what pet food doesn't go to pet food?
Christine Doran: You know, I used to always think that it did, but the
more research I did, I found out more of it was the zoo and for people.
But what I find interesting is there's really not a ton of regulation on.
They tell you when a horse has to have their last meds or
whatever before they're killed.
But do you know that they're actually following that?
That we we don't know because I don't think it's a very regulated system.
I could be, I could be wrong there, but you really have no idea how long that
they've actually been there or not.
So Okay.
I think that most people have no idea that it actually exists still.
They think that there's so many bad rescues out there that aren't
actually rescues and that are getting all of this money in.
They're very good at marketing and making it look like that they're helping
out animals, but they're really not.
And so
Rupert Isaacson: what does that mean exactly?
Be specific?
Christine Doran: So like, what are they actually doing?
Rupert Isaacson: Are you saying that there are horse rescues out there that
are actually just getting horses in and then selling them for slaughter?
Christine Doran: Oh, I'm saying that I do know of one that.
I've been even told by a volunteer who used to work at another rescue
that when they couldn't adopt out the horses, they just sent them to auction.
And that, I don't think happens all the time.
I think most of the time when you have these false ones, they're
not even rescuing the horses.
They pretend that they're rescuing, they show you all these horrible
images of horses, but they're not actually doing anything.
Or they're rounding them up and they're not caring where they go.
That a lot of rescues,
Rupert Isaacson: this is, this is a, this is a problem.
This is like a thing.
Christine Doran: It's a major problem that I can't even talk about when it
comes to if I wanted to try and get a sponsorship from, some type of large
company, hello Shadow, A large company that actually deals with horse stuff,
maybe boots or you know, whatever it may be, ar, ot, or you know, just big
companies when you apply and saying that you're a rescue, a lot of them don't
even look at you because rescues get such bad raps that so many people lie.
Rupert Isaacson: A little bit like bad foster parents who are
just doing it for the paycheck.
Christine Doran: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: How interesting.
Christine Doran: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I had no idea.
You'd have thought I would've, I would've after so many years in this field.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
So I try very hard to be as transparent as we possibly can with our social
media, with our online numbers of how much money we raise everything.
Because especially when you're a smaller nonprofit, small nonprofits unfortunately
have a very bad reputation as well.
Not just in the horse world, just any small nonprofit of taking advantage of the
tax exemption and donations and using that money for however they want, and not, I
Rupert Isaacson: think that's Go to church.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I know you're
Christine Doran: so, so we're.
It does happen.
Right.
So we're very good about that.
If money comes in where people want it to go to food, we literally
label that money as just food money.
Right.
We have it very strict within our accounting.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Okay.
So.
The auctions.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Where are they held?
Christine Doran: There's different places.
Rupert Isaacson: County have one.
Do they run by counties?
Are they run by private companies?
How does it work?
Christine Doran: A lot of 'em are private, that there's just auctioneers and then
some of 'em they have like, there's one in Indiana where it's known as the kill
pen auction or just auction horses where people will put, like just the regular
auction people will put like a certain bid that they have to meet on a horse.
Right.
You know, things like that.
The kill pen horses, you can see they, most of 'em look horrible.
Though I have gotten really good horses that I did not have to do much with
and they ended up in the kill him, that I don't think people realize
that when you just give away a horse.
And you are not knowing where that's going to.
If you, if you're gonna give away a horse, if you're gonna, you know,
let a horse go for cheap whatever.
If you don't have a buyback contract, if you're not using a rescue
to do that, that will actually take the time to check in again.
You don't know where that horse will end up.
We had something like that.
Recently, my farrier, he was given this thoroughbred 'cause he works at the track
and he was gonna retrain it and stuff.
And some girl said, Hey, do you wanna swap horses?
I really like the coloring of this one.
And do you wanna, and he said, yeah, I mean, if you've got one
that's already broke, I'll swap you.
Well then he got called up by like the board of the racetrack.
He goes, that horse ended up at.
And it's chipped.
So when they scanned it and they were like, why did one
of our horses end up here?
So he almost got in huge trouble and he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I just traded.
I had no idea this girl was gonna do anything.
Wow.
And it's, it's just such a common thing that even my
farrier is like, what the hell?
I didn't know that this existed so much.
And I said, when are you gonna learn If you have a horse that you need
to like get rid of, give it to me.
I promise you I'll
Rupert Isaacson: find It's so funny that I'm, I'm so used to, we're so
used to horse people being so obsessed with the welfare of their horses.
Yeah.
We all are that I think we just can't imagine this.
And it's funny, when I was a boy growing up, we, we would have e each
market town, and it still happens in the uk, would have a horse auction.
Melton Berry was the closest one to me, so we'd go down to Melton sales frequently
because they wouldn't just sell horses.
They would often, they would have secondhand tack and live
other livestock, and it was just sort of a countryside thing.
But you would sometimes go there to scan for something that looked useful.
But I do remember often seeing horses that were like, there's no
way this horse isn't, you know, like, who's gonna take this horse?
So I presume the meat men must have been buying, but it
wasn't overtly talked about.
Even when you were walking around those sails, people wouldn't
say, oh, those are the meat men.
And they're, you know, it was all, even if it was in plain
sight, it was hidden, I suppose.
Or perhaps we were willfully blind.
I don't know.
Is it, is that basically how it is then in
Christine Doran: Yeah, I don't think, I think you're right.
I think people don't even wanna imagine that something like that could happen.
And yet it happens at such a regular rate.
That last year alone, we took in 25 horses that, that were
just in horrible conditions,
Rupert Isaacson: you know?
And it is so weird that we have no problem with raising any other livestock for meat.
And in fact, people who, so let's say someone raises beef cattle and
they could be all free range pigs.
Like real pride in
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And we would all consider, oh, that person treats his
animals so well, the moment that person would be raising horses for meat.
Yeah.
In the same way, even if the horses were so well cared for and looked fabulous,
we would censor it, wouldn't we?
We would say that's beyond the fail.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because culturally that, but, but you know, it's so weird.
When I was in Mongolia, I totally ate horse because Yeah.
People, if a horse dies, they're not gonna out there on the step.
You're not gonna eat it.
Of course you gonna eats waste and you're gonna wear it and you're gonna.
Yeah.
You know, it's, it is gonna become your tent, it's gonna become your
boots, it's gonna become everything.
And it changed my attitude that way a little bit.
Yeah.
But it, but it doesn't negate the welfare.
Those mongolians out on that step are looking after their horses very well.
When it's time for them to go, it's time for them to go.
They don't have someone who can conveniently show up with
a back home and take that away.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: And I think that people, they don't wanna think about what happens
to the horse after they're done with it.
Where I find like, here they really, really love horses.
And then it gets to a point where it can't do something for them.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you know, you know what the, the, the, the old
way for the English fox hunters, and actually it's still that way, I think
in, in among the Americans as well.
What our, what we all used to do in that culture was when a
horse, it was their time to go.
Yeah.
The person who would come around and put the horse down always came from the local
hunt kennels, and they would take the horse carcass and feed it to the hound.
However.
It was put down in the most humane possible way.
It was done at home.
It was, there was no transportation involved, no stress.
The horse had its face in a, you know, big thing of mash.
People were crying, saying goodbye to the horse.
The horse was now 30 years old, you know, and doddering and time to go.
And now it would be a lethal injection and the, and the meat is toxic.
You couldn't feed it to anyone.
It has to be incinerated, but it was actually a humane system.
And I think it does still go on that way.
So it's very, but there was no abuse of the horse leading up to that point.
I guess that is the, the thing, when I saw those two horses, so, yeah.
Listeners and viewers.
I, the first time I went to Christine's, it was such an eyeopener for me because
you had, you'd just taken in two horses.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Wellow and River.
Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: I got to see them luckily again eight months later or so.
Yeah.
They're
Christine Doran: doing great.
Rupert Isaacson: And they're looking, you know, really good.
Yeah.
But my god, my jaw dropped and I hadn't seen a horse.
I, I lived in India for a while.
There are street horses there.
You want to see a starving horse?
You, you know.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I hadn't seen anything like that since then.
And I was just like, whoa.
This happens in, not just in America, but in Midwestern America
where there's like a lot of grass.
Remember we had that conversation.
Lot of, gosh.
I was like, you have to try quite hard actually to starve a horse.
Mm-hmm.
Outside of like January, because grass grows like everywhere.
Christine Doran: You know what I find?
There's this weird thing here in Illinois when I first moved here
and I was looking for pasture board.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Christine Doran: The woman that I called said, you do know it gets cold here.
Right.
And I was like, you do know there are horses, right?
You do not.
There's, there's something in Illinois that's and not everyone, but I find that
this state truly likes to treat their horses like puppy dogs or something,
that they keep them stalled a lot.
They only go out on nice days.
There's not this big thing into grazing.
So there's this abundance of grass, but they mostly keep the horses stalled.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But those people, they might, we might, might not be happy with them stalling
their horses so much or whatever, but the horses are well fed to starve a horse.
Yeah.
In Illinois is tough.
Right?
It happens.
You just have to lock it in a shed, right?
Christine Doran: Yes.
No.
They, they, they leave it in a stall like we had.
So Leo and river and Willow, who you saw
mm-hmm.
There were four horses on that property.
And the owner kept two of the horses in the barn and fed them.
And then Willow and river were kept in an outdoor pen that people
were like renting the land from.
And that owner walked by every single day and saw these horses literally starving
to death and chose to keep feeding his horses and not say anything to those
people because he was getting a little bit of money each month to rent his land.
Rupert Isaacson: How did that end up?
How did he end up getting, I guess, busted?
Christine Doran: There was a camper fire on the property, and there is a law that
whenever there is a fire, the sheriff's department has to show up in case there
was arson and it was clearly not arson.
And the sheriff was just being nosy and shining his flashlight and spotted
the two horses, and we got called.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
Christine Doran: so it was,
Rupert Isaacson: what happened?
What happened to the guy?
Christine Doran: The owner got nothing.
And then the two, there was two different men that owned each horse.
The, the owner of River who was extremely emaciated.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I remember
Christine Doran: he got a slap on the wrist.
And then the owner of the mayor didn't get anything.
And the owner, and I don't think what the courts understand is the
only reason why that Marere was in better shape is she was the alpha.
So she got more food, she pushed him away from it.
Hmm.
So he got off simply because his horse was shooing the other horse off of food.
But it's very aggravating because the laws are not for the animals at all.
Rupert Isaacson: How often do you get a call like that?
Christine Doran: Well last year I think about over half of our horses,
out of the 25 were extreme calls.
Rupert Isaacson: And how many of those horses make it into your program?
Christine Doran: So we kept, I think about six of 'em right now.
'cause our program's growing now that we're teaching.
Yeah.
You know, learning to keen and really growing, we wanna not start
over of rehabbing a horse mm-hmm.
Let alone training it.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Christine Doran: So we're holding onto some of the horses, but
we don't have a lot of land.
Mm-hmm.
So I really believe in being responsible that we have to be horse
helpers and not horse hoarders.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Christine Doran: So, it'll be 11 years in March that we've been doing this
and we've rescued over 125 horses.
Rupert Isaacson: And how do you manage to then?
Or can you, is it, is it even humanly possible to ensure that they don't
end up in the same place again?
Christine Doran: So we're pretty strict about it.
We try to make it not where it's impossible to get a horse.
But we find that because we are so open and honest about the horse's
abilities, we don't lie about anything.
That there are no white lies.
And I find that a lot of organizations just to try and keep helping
animals, they try and get 'em out.
But yeah, my thought process is if I lie, even one small lie, that horse has
the potential to end up back into this.
Yeah.
And so all of the horses that we have adopted out, we still stay
in contact with the families.
They become like family to us.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you find, how do you find it, the people to
adopt them out to It can't be easy.
Christine Doran: Social media has been our best friend that
we have a very good following.
And I think because my reputation holds in a world where the
horse industry is just known.
I don't know if it's like this over where you are, but.
The biggest liars I've ever met have been horse people.
I always say there is no, there is no gray in the horse world.
It's black and white.
You either have really good people
Yeah.
That have just very good souls, or you have the worst people
that you will ever encounter.
And so if you think that they're the best people, and months later they
say something that just hits your soul the wrong way, know that there
is something dark and nasty underneath there that I've never found a gray spot.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe it's the TBIs.
Christine Doran: Maybe it's the TBIs.
There's no gray.
I have found
Rupert Isaacson: no gray.
Okay.
So, so it's, it's, it's astonishing.
I, I take my hat off to you.
Christine Doran: Thank
Rupert Isaacson: you.
Because it's damn hard to, to rehome a good horse.
Even a good horse.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, to rehome it well, I mean, if you've got a
good horse, everybody wants that horse, but to, to make sure that
it ends up where it should end up.
But when horses lack.
Physical ability or you know, you know, they're coming with so
much trauma that, you know, your average person can't really deal.
Rehoming them is not easy.
It's an art.
What do you think, beyond being transparent, what do you
think the art is of rehoming?
The really difficult,
Christine Doran: you let them heal.
You get a horse that people want.
They may not be able to do everything that they, you know,
some people just wanna pasture puff.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Christine Doran: But I find that.
By first, you know, rehabbing of getting their, their body back and
then putting them out with my horses.
Kind of like how horse boy you learn through osmosis, you know?
Mm-hmm.
That I'm doing that with my horses and I'm letting them
learn through the other horses.
Mm.
That they get to see how to interact with one another, but
also how to interact with humans.
And so I don't even try to jump in and say, you should trust me.
I'm a good person.
Right.
No.
I let them see that I'm a good person by interacting with my other horses, and
then we start building on from there.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But what about the ones that have like really come with the just big physical
issues after what they've gone through had
Christine Doran: so, so like physical issues, like they're hobbling or like that
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, like that.
There'll just never be sound again that, you know, they can't be a riding horse.
They can't really even be that much of a working horse.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
I tend to usually find them with like retired people who don't
wanna ride anymore, but they wanna brush and love on a horse.
Rupert Isaacson: They want something,
something
Rupert Isaacson: to love.
Christine Doran: I have found that I've been extremely successful at
rehoming horses who can never be ridden.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you mentor other people who are starting rescues?
Because this sounds unusually.
Effective what you're doing.
Christine Doran: I don't, but I love the idea because so many
Rupert Isaacson: I think you should.
I think you should.
Christine Doran: So should many people tell me that I
should just put horses down?
That they come in like, toast, who was gonna be our school master horse
Rupert Isaacson: because he was
Christine Doran: toast.
Toasted.
Marshmallow.
The love that he came from auction for slaughter.
He was over 400 pounds underweight.
Hmm.
He had a massive viral infection.
His feet looked like dinner plates when we got him, and he had been beaten
so severely that he no longer had a flight response, but a fight response.
Hmm.
And when I got him, I was pregnant with my second and I couldn't even
work with him because when you walked into the pen, he tried to kill you.
I mean, it was just flat out, you had a horse in there who
was ready to take someone out.
And we said, okay, well let's just feed him.
And let his wounds heal.
He had a huge knot on his forehead.
We see that time and time again, unfortunately, and it's when people are
riding and they don't like what the horse is doing, they take a two by four and they
hit them in the head while they're riding.
I mean, it's just things that you don't, you feel like, oh my
gosh, that could never happen.
And yet I've seen it multiple times.
And so of course he didn't trust people.
Of course he wanted to kill them.
And because we take it slow and we allow, and truly, I can't take all the
credit for toast because toast really changed because of a little five-year-old
nonverbal boy who would go up to his stall door and would shake it like hell
while toast out his butt to him because he felt he was just drawn to toast.
And toast every single time, would turn around, put his head over the gate, and
would give kisses to this little boy.
And it was that child that made that horse, not me, but that child.
That told that horse that there are good people out there.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting, the, yeah, I remember when my, obviously when
my son and Betsy made their connection.
I remember looking at that direct line between that little nonverbal
autistic boy and that horse and going, I really thought I knew about horses.
I know a very little bit about horses.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
And I really felt like I had a handle on things.
And then you came in last March and I, I wasn't sure.
I was like, okay, I am, I'm all for new experiences, but I also am very particular
about how my horses are treated.
That I, when you were talking about bits and I don't use bits, and I was
like, okay, well what kind of bit are you gonna use and what are you gonna do?
You know, I was, I was very on edge about it, but I had this big talk
with you and saying, listen, I chew everything that someone has to.
And then I will decide if I'm gonna spit it out or swallow it.
And you really went through and spoke with me about how important it's for
you that horses are well taken care of and that they're a priority in this.
And when you came out and you were working with Missy, Missy is a a very
unique being where if she does not like you and you keep pushing her,
when she says, I need a moment, you are gonna see a major reaction out of her.
And yet the moment that she even started to say, I don't like this.
Something feels wrong with this, you stopped and you said,
oh, you're such a good pony.
Give yourself a moment.
Take that in, let that register of what we're doing.
And it made me go, okay, this is someone I could follow.
This is someone I could learn from.
And what's been so beautiful with it is that by us taking.
You know, I, I'm now horse boy one, we did movement method
certifications and now we're into our second certification with Teke.
But just since last March, changing how I work with my students and really doing
Follow the Child and mirroring them, that one of our kids in our program who has
been with me for a couple of years and used to be so dysregulated that coming
to the ranch wasn't a fun thing for him, that we started using your tactics and
suddenly he's laughing and he's smiling and he wouldn't stay on a horse, and
now he doesn't wanna get off the horse.
And he went from not using his talker and not using sign language to, he
said his first word since he was two.
The last word he ever said was Daddy.
And he said, go.
And the parents are crying and we're just completely.
So happy for him.
But not only is it happening at the ranch now, he's now using the talker and he's
now using sign language off the ranch in school, at home that we're seeing
what you were talking about with us.
And it's just so cool to go, man, we haven't even dived deep enough
into this yet, that if we're already having these results, imagine what
we're gonna be like in three years.
It's such an amazing phase for us to be in.
Rupert Isaacson: You're kind, you know, if I owe it all to Temple grandad who
mentored me and told me, yeah, follow the child and what follow the child meant,
and obviously to my son and Betsy for showing me that radical transformation.
And then obviously finding out from neuroscientists why that radical
transformation had happened.
But
Christine Doran: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I can't really claim credit.
But I am.
'cause I'm really just a vessel of
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That energy, that approach I suppose.
But what I am so glad of is I could not have imagined when I was standing
in a field 20 years ago with my son lost and not knowing what to do.
I couldn't possibly have imagined that 20 years on there would be hundreds of
thousands of people around the world.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Basically getting what my son got and making the
same improvements that my son made.
And so I'm just really honored that you gave me the time of day because for,
for, for my mission, it's, I happen to be uniquely positioned in that.
I'm a journalist, so I kind of ask questions.
So it was a natural for me to say, I will seek out a mentor who's that mentor?
And that's how I came up with Temple Grandad.
But also you know, I had horse skills.
I was living in the country, so although I was broke and I happened
to have this really good neighbor who, that's why it makes so much
emphasis on Tribe, who's the complete opposite political spectrum to me.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And we just liked each other anyway.
We didn't care.
And that's kind of how it used to be.
It's getting more polarized now as we know, but
Christine Doran: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And we need to get back to that because that little autistic
boy doesn't care who you vote for.
That horse doesn't care who you vote for.
Mm-hmm.
That suffering person doesn't, you know, it, it, all of that's really irrelevant.
That's irrelevant.
Monkey stuff, you know?
And one things I love about the populations of people that we work with,
and obviously the horses do, is they just bring us back to exactly what's important.
And that, of course is immensely healing for us.
So I, you know, it's immensely healing for me.
So when, when I came out to you, I thought, I don't really have anything
to, to, to teach this lady because I saw how you were rehabbing these horses
and I was like, man, I mean, if she just goes right on doing this she's grand.
I mean, sure there's a few tools I can share, but honestly, you know,
this is, this is really great work.
I'm just, you know, honored to have you as a colleague.
Christine Doran: Well, I really appreciate that compliment, but you
know, I think it's really amazing that what you're doing, that even our
foster care program that we run where we pair up a child and a mentor once a
week with a horse, and you're able to.
Do to keen with these horses and show these kids how to do this as well.
That there's so much relatability for these children that these horses
weren't taken care of, they were abused, they were neglected, and then
they got thrown out of their home.
You know that they're coming into this new spot, new place,
and there's relatability there.
And then we get to say to them, oh, well this horse gets to
go to a foster home next week.
Oh, this horse came back from a foster home.
But did you know, it's not the horse's fault.
It just wasn't the right fit for them.
We're here to find the right fit.
And so it's amazing to be able to take these rescue animals that you know, have
known what love is not, and put them in a place where there is love, and take them
with children that don't know what true unconditional love is, and then place
'em with these horses and then to be able to use to keen with it and they start
rehabbing these horses with us is so cool.
So cool.
Rupert Isaacson: It, it was a real revelation to me, the Teki program
because it came as, you know, out of also desperation and necessity.
Yeah.
Where we were running out of time to condition our horses, you know?
Because we just had so many clients and what we gonna do.
And then it was like that duh moment, like, of course the clients
should be the horse trainers.
Of course, of course they can totally do this.
And probably better than us because they, their egos aren't as involved.
And it was just this immediate, massive empowerment thing.
But also it took all the stress off me because suddenly I, I,
I didn't have to do it all.
And my wife, so, and I'm, I'm just very grateful for you to bringing
that into the Chicago area and, and, and to people, you know, like that.
As you were saying that about love, it made me think back to what you said
earlier in the conversation, though.
I, I, I wonder if you're uniquely positioned in this to understand about
the power of, of love because you lost it.
Because you lost love.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, maybe, I think most of us can't imagine that.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I think that's really outside of my can basic,
universal, unconditional love.
It's so much a part of me to think, wow, if I were to lose that, it would
feel like being the undead or something.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: a very good
Christine Doran: feeling.
Rupert Isaacson: It.
Do you ever talk to your some of your clients who are going through stuff like
this, about, about your experiences?
Do you share?
Christine Doran: Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Christine Doran: So we had even volunteers and stuff.
I find that a lot of volunteers find us and they think that they're
gonna be helping and instead
Rupert Isaacson: they turn out to be clients.
Yes.
Christine Doran: They turn out to be clients.
Right.
That they get more healing out of it because they weren't expecting anything.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Christine Doran: And so I've been introduced several times to people
who have recently had TBIs and they're really struggling, the spouse
and the person suffering from it.
And I find that there's a level of comfort to know that someone else has gone through
that, that they've made it out to that other end and that I don't sugarcoat it.
It's hard, you know, there's, there's a lot of pressure put on
that, that other partner, I mean, my husband is truly an incredible man
to have held on when I was so cruel.
You know that, to know that I could come back, but to also be patient enough.
Brave, brave.
You could own it
Rupert Isaacson: too.
I mean, it, it, it, there must be some, there must have been a temptation to keep
that private because the shame involved.
There's regret.
Yeah.
There's, you know, but by, by owning it, you let everyone else own it.
Who's going?
Christine Doran: Yeah.
I think I'm very big into, I always say that my goal with Triple H is to
knock down social barriers and to make things that are taboo at this moment,
to just knock them off their rocker and to make it a normalized thing.
And so, I have been very open about my past between, I had
a brother-in-law assault me.
I had the TBI and I find that when you are open about these things.
And you don't make it sound like a sh a shameful thing because none of it works.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But you also don't paint yourself as the vi as a victim.
I think, I think what's so cool about it is that you say, no,
look, you know, it made me behave really badly rather than poor me.
I was sort of the hero in the story.
Even though you had no choice in it, even though by no means was your fault,
I think own it's, it's the bravery of owning that to say I was cruel.
That is a really hard and brave thing to say.
I don't think you give yourself enough credit there.
Christine Doran: Well, thank you.
'cause I just think you got it.
You know, you have to.
I want other people.
Rupert Isaacson: It's kind is what it is.
Yeah.
It lets other people heal.
Christine Doran: I, I think so.
I think so.
I think that that's what I want for people though, is I
don't want people to struggle.
Like I've struggled and I don't want people to be ashamed.
Like I have felt shame.
Mm.
And so I find that.
If we use our voices and, and I always say, and I know you believe
in this too with your tribes, that the world would be a much better
place if we had a community again.
Mm-hmm.
That if we were to take care of each other and talk about our problems instead of
just I, I have a very strict rule here.
If I ask you how you're doing, you better not say fine, because
I will dive into your soul.
You better believe it.
Fines are not allowed here.
You can either tell me that life's great, life's just mediocre.
There's some things with work or school or whatever.
Or you can sit there and say, can I just talk in your office and you can
just cry on my shoulder, but I'm not gonna have a fine walk through my door.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm thinking about the passive aggressive.
Fine.
Then fine, fine.
I won't say fine.
Fine.
So you'll find
Christine Doran: me.
That would be my 7-year-old.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me about your team.
Tell us about your team.
We've heard a bit about your equine team.
Tell us about your human team.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
So, I like to say that everyone finds me, that people tend to say
that when they walk across our threshold, something feels different.
They feel like the outside world disappears.
And so what I have found is it draws in people that maybe no one wants
to give a second chance to, or that that they're struggling in life.
And so some of our team one of our team members has a learning disability.
And when he started with me, he had an aide that came with him
from school and literally had to be taught how to hook up a hose, how
to stack hay how to do animal care.
And now he's been with me for six years, and now he has a paid job.
And he gets to teach others how to do things and when he is learning
something new, because we don't hold expectations that everyone's the same.
We know that we take it and we break it down for him.
And it's not that he can't learn, it's that society believes that he
has to learn at a certain pace that no one's giving him the chance.
And yet our program has shown that he flourishes if you just slow it down and
give him a moment to grasp what he needs to do and don't say, do you understand it?
But instead say, say it back to me.
What did you get out of that?
You're able to see what he comprehended and what he didn't.
We've had multiple people come through with addiction.
Several of my team members have had some type of addiction in their
past, or they're currently working through an addiction, and it's a
space where no one hides anything.
So people talk freely and openly, whether they've been in recovery
for three months or 30 years.
That you have a space here where there's no judgment,
there's just a space of healing.
And so it's a very interesting dynamic that I have because most of the people
that are on my team have had zero, zero knowledge in horses, and they were just
drawn to this place for whatever reason and are now learning from the ground up,
which I don't mind because we know that there are so many bad habits in the horse
world of how they teach that for me, yes, it's extra work in some ways, but in other
ways it's less work because I'm not having to rebuild a bad, you know, get rid of a
bad habit and then put in a good habit.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking of course, it's the bad habits that brought the
horses to you in the first place.
Christine Doran: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just thinking too about your, your experience
with the TBI of also losing your IQ and losing your ability to learn.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: This also gives you a uniquely
empathetic
Christine Doran: Absolutely.
I always say I was a compassionate person and then I became an empathetic person.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Christine Doran: Because I knew what it was like.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
You say, you know, dude, I have actually been there.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: It makes me so much more relatable, you know, because I think
Rupert Isaacson: you need to be running trainings in this.
You do.
You need, you need to create like, okay, you're, you're doing my methods and great.
That's grand.
Yeah.
But you are bigger than that.
When you put together your Triple H method, given that you are uniquely
poised to understand what it is, to lose love, to lose intellectual
ability, to lose sensory processing,
I don't think.
Many people in our field are quite so positioned.
For example, you haven't met her yet, but there's a genius lady who does
horse boy movement method in Te Keen in central Germany called GI Bergoff.
Amazing human.
I hope you get to meet one day.
She is also the mother of a, of a son who had spinal such severe spina bifida.
Yeah.
And hydrocephalus that they said to abort him they weren't gonna do that.
Yeah.
But they understood why the doctors said it, and therefore, what was coming,
they've, it's been a great success, but not without great, you know, struggle.
But she, before she got into all of this, she was a dementia nurse and
there's unique things she understands that she can bring to the table.
But I think to have gone through it yourself, like that early dementia
I would be very, very interested to see, and actually to help you when
you feel ready to structure out.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: We, we need more and more approaches.
We don't just need horse boy movement methods.
Again, we don't just need path.
We don't just need life and chip.
We need an infinite number of these things because there's an
infinite number of of of contexts.
So, for example, when you come up with that, I would totally take your train.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I'd, I'd actually want to be trained by you for that.
Oh,
Christine Doran: thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: And then I'd want to integrate that into what I was
doing, you know, Nick, all your good ideas claim they were mine, you know?
'cause I've had so many TBIs that, you know, clearly I,
you know what I'm gonna do.
Christine Doran: I know.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Lull you into a false sense of security.
And then, but no, I mean, is unique Triple H that's why I had no hesitation right
after I did that first thing with you.
And even though the horses were somewhat uninformed at that point by Yeah.
You know, our attacking standard were, I'd say, no, no, these guys have got it.
They're, they're gonna get there.
So I immediately sent that family to you.
Yeah, that subsequently That's beautiful.
I was like, that's exactly what they need is that, is that environment and
any, you know, listeners and viewers, if you are in the greater Chicago
kind of area, and I would include like, you know, upper Indiana and
Lower Michigan and all those places.
You, you want to go check out Triple H if you've got anyone who
you feel could benefit from them.
And crucially, if you want to donate,
Christine Doran: absolutely
Rupert Isaacson: you can't really do better because the money's also going
to go to rehabbing these horses that.
By all rights shouldn't be able to make it and do.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's an extraordinary, extraordinary
achievement and it's, what I love is that it's, it's just beginning.
I feel triple HI
Christine Doran: feel the same way.
I feel like I'm just at my, just at the beginning of the store starting
to open and it feels really good.
Rupert Isaacson: So where's it going?
Where do you want it to go?
Let's dream.
Money's no object.
I don't want to be reasonable here.
Christine Doran: Yes.
Well, I don't believe in being reasonable, so, I've got my big dreams.
But you know, everyone told me Triple H wasn't gonna be here, so I'm like, you
know, I have, I have my people around me that keep me grounded, but my feet are
off the floor because I figure if you don't dream big, nothing can be possible.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
Christine Doran: Also
Rupert Isaacson: the fun.
Yeah, yeah,
Christine Doran: yeah.
Where's the fun in that?
Where's the fun?
So, and you've gotta have fun in this because you deal with such extreme
cases between kids that come in
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Christine Doran: And the abuse and neglect that you see and you hear, and
you read when you're doing your intake assessments to the horses, you have to be
able to have fun in this or you, you burn
Rupert Isaacson: out.
Well, right.
If, if the problem that we're dealing with suffering, the opposite of suffering
is you cannot have joy without fun.
It's actually a tool.
If we don't have it, we can't do the job.
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
Absolutely.
So let's agree.
Christine Doran: So what we're wanting to do is within two years, we're wanting to
raise funds to purchase a second property.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Christine Doran: And this property is specifically for adolescent
girls and mental health crises.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
Christine Doran: Because I had one of my nieces attempted suicide
when she was 11, and I've been wanting to do this since I was 16.
But it became, you know, my own experience of seeing what these girls go through
when they either do attempt suicide or they're having these ideations of it.
And you get thrown into, you know, a mental institution with
white walls, nothing with nature.
And a lot of times there's just pills thrown at you.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: so bizarre, isn't it?
The moment someone's suicidal, they put them in a place that
makes them want to kill themselves.
So,
Christine Doran: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Crazy.
Christine Doran: And so, like for my niece, my sister had asked would
there be, you know, a strip search or whatever that she'd wanna be there.
Her daughter's only 11.
They said no, yet when she left, she was stripped.
Right?
And so, like my niece has all of that trauma of these adults staring at this
11-year-old who was just in her bra and underwear, and them checking her over to
see if she's hiding anything like that.
You know, she's gonna, you know, so there's, there's trauma that comes from.
Trying help seek help.
And what Triple H wants to do is to create a space with cottages instead and have
two to four girls living in a cottage
Rupert Isaacson: sanctuary.
Yeah.
Christine Doran: Yes.
And having a rage room and reiki and horse therapy and just all different
modalities of healing and having a, a large pond that they can row across.
Really being with nature to heal.
Going on trail rides together, having a big nest hall where we
talk together, we watch movies together, that it becomes a community.
Mm.
And that instead of these girls coming up to me that are in my program, and
they say, miss Christine, I was only in for 10 days instead of 21 this time.
And you have to be so proud of them for that.
We're failing our kids.
We're absolutely failing them.
That is a bandaid.
And I wanna be a place that has residential, but then also has
programs that are outpatient programs that you can keep coming back to
that we don't cut the line with you just because you're suddenly better.
No, we wanna get to the root of why do you feel like you're not worthy of being here?
Because you are so worthy of being here, you have so much to offer.
Mm-hmm.
And we want them to feel that too.
So that's like our two year goal of raising enough money to purchase
a second property for that.
And then we have a five to seven year goal where I really want to go into
the prison systems because when you look at foster care statistics, one in
four kids within the first two years of aging out will be incarcerated.
And 80% of current prisoners in our system right now have been in
foster care at one point in time.
So for the ones that I've missed that I didn't get in my Stable Moments program.
I then want to have a prison and parolee program where we go in and we take these
horses that would be killed at slaughter, and instead using methods like takin
and my own to rehab these horses and have them find these incredible homes.
And then you're already giving education and skills to these
prisoners that either if they're lifers okay, then they have something
to do that they're not just sitting.
But if they get out, then we have a parolee program and we're a stepping
stone where we take a chance on them where no one else would and Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And if they were lifers, they could still rehab the horses.
Christine Doran: Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: The host is a second wife.
Yeah,
Christine Doran: absolutely.
But the reentry rate is so incredibly high, and it's because no one, once
you have it on your record mm-hmm.
That you've done something, no one wants to take a chance on you.
And I wanna take a chance on people.
Not that everyone will make it, I'm, I'm not naive to that situation, but for those
that want it, I wanna be there for them.
Rupert Isaacson: It would be really interesting to you to trace the
TBI line or through foster care
Christine Doran: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Or through incarceration or through, you know,
that I bet you that there is a s scan
Christine Doran: probably
Rupert Isaacson: to be detected and I I wonder if they are multiple ones.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because somebody might have had like shaken baby
or fetal alcohol or whatever.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then they get beat up as kids and things happen
with that, with the brain and then they get beat up as adolescents.
Christine Doran: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and, and I wonder if it many times often just goes back to
something as almost biomechanical as that.
Which then resonates
Christine Doran: very interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: All the way through.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then even if it didn't, if you took the
approach that it had happened, you would for sure get a good result.
So, for example,
as you know, I, I often wear a dressage hat now as well.
I, I go out and teach people that
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I want them to do dressage, not dressage
and something that's nice for people in horses, you know?
Christine Doran: Right.
I love that.
Rupert Isaacson: So, well, like horse yoga really, and
the,
the parallel what makes me a better teacher with people is because I now
treat everyone as if they were autistic.
And I find if I just abide by the same rules
Christine Doran: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: That I would abide by if someone was really autistic.
Then I'm probably not gonna trigger, I'm probably not gonna
this, I'm probably not gonna that.
I'm gonna think about the environment.
I'm probably gonna keep my voice soft.
I'm probably gonna this, I'm probably gonna that.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'll just be less of a prick.
And it's funny because, you know, prick ishness can creep in.
Yeah.
And in that type of thing.
And it's funny, I've caught myself a few times going, Ooh, ru, you're, you're kind
of verging towards P freakishness here.
And then I'm like, Ooh, well what would I do if that was an autistic person and
I was getting impatient or something?
It's like, I don't, I'd apologize.
Christine Doran: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's really interesting.
So I've got this thing now.
I'll apologize to my clients.
You know, I'll say, sorry, let me just own that, that, that was so not you.
That was so me.
It was just purely that, you know, I didn't sleep that well last
night and I'm a bit tired and
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I.
Let me just own that.
Can we just rewind and I, I apologize.
I sincerely apologize.
And it's funny, you know, no writing instructor ever did that to, you
know, let alone a parent to me.
But I, so I think if you were to apply the TBI rules and how it would've
gone well with you when you were in the worst of it to kind of everybody
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How can you go wrong, really?
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's sort of a lesson for ticking the baseline.
Christine Doran: Mm-hmm.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: and, and not deviating from that baseline.
Yeah.
And I think there aren't many people who really understand that baseline,
like you do in our field, because not many have gone through it and, or
some may have gone through it and not known that they've gone through it.
'cause Yeah.
Lots of us have taken knocks to the head.
I think what's.
It's very different about you is that you're conscious of the whole thing and
you can kind of chart the chronology.
Does that make sense?
Christine Doran: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
It does.
Rupert Isaacson: What we haven't asked you
Christine Doran: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is what do the three Hs stand for?
Christine Doran: So it actually was done by my sister.
It was Hands Hos and Hope, but it was such a mouthful that we literally rebranded and
got rid of that one and just put Triple H.
Is
Rupert Isaacson: it so funny?
Triple H It sounds so good.
And you don't even think, well, I don't need to know what that is.
'cause it's like all these ranches, they all have these like Easy L or
Flying Bee or something, and it's like, well, okay, it's just a Western
sounding thing, which probably does go to like some family name or something.
Christine Doran: Yeah, no, it was just my sister came up with it.
I needed a name.
I couldn't think of one.
Yeah, probably 'cause I was suffering from A TBI that no creativity in me.
And she came up with it and then we let that one go.
'cause I, I didn't know enough to know that, oh, I could just like, you know,
do a DBA as triple H and totally just let Handsomes and Hope go and started
all the paperwork and the money again.
Again.
Oh.
Wasn't quite with it, with my TBI, but
Rupert Isaacson: are you creative?
You said you weren't creative because you, of the TBI.
Do you have creative outlets outside of this?
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do?
Christine Doran: So for me, I, I love to like knit.
I'm like a little old lady.
That's something that I really Okay.
Did you knit?
You
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
Christine Doran: I did not.
I didn't, no, I was gonna say that looks like a professional
Rupert Isaacson: job.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
I can't, I can't take credit for that.
I like to do like baby blankets for people, blankets for my living
room, like little baby hats when, and so I love doing stuff like that.
I love to read, like, that's something I really love.
I, I tend to do reiki on friends and family when they want it.
That that's another one of my outlets that I love that.
Rupert Isaacson: So the reason I ask is, describe to me the loss of
creativity and describe to me the experience of refining creativity.
Christine Doran: You know, I think I have a deep appreciation for
joy now because when you lose it.
I didn't have, like, with knitting, I didn't have the coordination to
be able to do something like that, that when I would try and even do it,
I would give myself such a massive headache from trying to figure it out.
Mm.
That it was not fun for me that I used to golf a lot and that coordination thing,
you know, like you, you lose all of that.
And so I think I, I have an outlook on life of, and I think that's why I.
I don't hide anything that's happened because I think too many times in life
the way that people show themselves that if you look at me right now,
you'd be like, oh my gosh, she's got these three beautiful children.
She's a pretty woman.
She's got this amazing husband.
She's got this career going for her.
And it's, I never want people to think that that was an easy
thing and that I just got it.
I want people to know that you can work hard and go against
those waves crashing down on you, and you can still find success.
You can still find beauty, you can still find joy in things.
And I think all too often when we look at someone, we're like, oh, well,
they just have luck on their side.
And my marriage didn't start out like that before I even had my TBI, Matt and I.
Matt and I had very, very bad communication skills.
We did a ton of therapy together and we've both worked very hard on ourselves
and on our relationship, and so I think it makes a difference to, to really
appreciate what you have and what you've worked for and, and finding that that true
joy in it because you didn't have that every day that I can wake up and write
an email or, you know, go out and work my horses and not be tripping over myself.
It's a beautiful day to know that some people don't get that back.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's so true.
I remember when I smashed my legs up and I was lying on a couch for a long time, and
I realized what a blessing it was to get up off a couch and walk to the bathroom.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Like, and I remember the first day I could, I'm like, I
will never take this for granted again.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Does it, does it really come down to gratitude?
Christine Doran: I think so.
I really think so.
I'm, so, I wake up every day feeling so blessed and.
Really deep gratitude for what I have.
Really deep gratitude.
I do not
Rupert Isaacson: take it
Christine Doran: well.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm very, very grateful for you and I'm grateful
for the work you're doing.
Can you, we we're, we're sort of now at the I know we talk
a lot, you know me, you and
Christine Doran: I are quite the talkers.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what a surprise for me anyway, but Well, what,
what an excellent, excellent story.
You've told an inspiration.
People now need to know how to find you.
Get in touch you.
So let's do the plugs.
Can you give us all the coordinate emails?
Absolutely.
Christine Doran: So, even though we say Triple H, it's
literally spelled HHH Ranch.
So if they wanna find us, they just literally type HHH Ranch and then
Illinois into Google and we pop right up.
They want the actual website.
It's www.hhranchilforillinois.org.
And then like we talked about with the donations, everything's tax deductible.
We are a 5 0 1 C3, so they can always get that little extra incentive there that
if they don't just wanna give, but they want something in return, they can get it.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
If people want to reach out directly to you, I presume there's
an email link on the Triple H.
Christine Doran: Absolutely.
There's a
Rupert Isaacson: contact form il.org
Christine Doran: org?
Yes.
Yeah, so they can just, just go on there and they'll find all of our
information and then Fantastic.
We're on TikTok, we're on Instagram, we're on Facebook.
You name it, we've probably got it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And if anyone is out there thinking to be a horse rescue, now that we've
been educated a little bit in how, what a bit of a minefield that is.
Including, if you are doing it ethically that people might assume
you're not and not want to support you.
I suggest you reach out to Christine, who will mentor you a bit with this.
Christine Doran: Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're going through TBIs, if you're going through depression,
if you're going through postpartum depression, I suggest you reach out.
If you are looking for how to bootstrap your nonprofit, I suggest you reach out.
I've been to her place a few times and it is fab and it's getting fab.
How much do you need to raise for those dreams, the se, those two and, and
seven year five to seven year phase.
So
Christine Doran: we actually, we have found a place that we really love that
is on 20 acres and it already has the plumbing and the the water and the
electrical set up that we could literally do little cottages, build them around 'em.
And that facility, they are wanting 600,000 for.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you need to raise
Christine Doran: 600.
That's lot of updates that it needs.
But the initial to even get the property, we're looking anywhere
from like 600,000 to a million.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And then to develop it another 600,000 or more,
Christine Doran: probably more about a million.
Rupert Isaacson: So really you need to make two mil.
Christine Doran: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So Triple H needs two mil lads.
That's very reasonable in this day and age.
Christine Doran: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Who wants to step up?
Shall we do a little crowdfunder maybe, or something?
Hmm.
Crack.
Christine Doran: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Let's, we'll, we'll talk.
We'll talk.
Yeah.
'cause I believe, I believe in it.
I believe in the project.
Thank you.
I'd like to see it work.
Christine Doran: Me too.
Me
Rupert Isaacson: too.
I think everyone listening and, and watching would as well.
Okay, lads, we have a mission.
Christine Doran: Woohoo.
Let's do it.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
And I will see you.
This is January of 2026.
I will see you hopefully in June because we're, yes.
We're gonna in the Michigan area again.
Christine Doran: Okay, wonderful.
Yeah.
And if not, I'm wanting to come over to Europe too.
I figure out this, my sister and pop around and see you.
Rupert Isaacson: You know what?
Find us.
Christine Doran: You're just a hop, skip, and a jump away.
Rupert Isaacson: I am.
I am.
Well these days, everything is from everywhere.
Alright.
Until the next time.
Christine, thank you so much.
It's been great.
Thank you.
Christine Doran: This has been wonderful.
Thank you for your time.
Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.
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