Welcome to Speak The Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual in local church in

counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are still traveling in different places in an undisclosed location, but I'm excited about this episode.

And I am currently at the Biblical Counseling Coalition Global Summit, and I've got an ad hoc episode here just because of a very wonderful conversation that I had with a special dude. A special dude. I have Adam Westlake with me. Adam, how are we doing, brother?

I'm good, Michael. How are you?

I'm doing good, man. I've seen you around over the years at the ABC conference, and we've dapped. We've shook hands. We've done other things, but we didn't really have a chance to really talk and hang out. So I think this is the most that I've ever talked with you.

Although

It's true.

I think the CCF conference

We did finally get a little bit of time

to see you. With Zig?

With Zig. Yeah. What's up? Shout out to watermark.

Yeah. Shout out to watermark. At any rate, I wanted to bring Adam on. He's actually doing our worship here at the summit, and it's been wonderful. And I wanted to bring him on because of the conversation we were having about as biblical counselors typically were having growth assignments that we give our counselees and is generally around read this or read this scripture and write this down and come back and let's talk about it.

And we've done many episodes around methodology, growth assignments, and things like that. But because of my conversation with Adam yesterday and just his focus on music Yeah. The idea of music and as a form of spiritual disciplines that ultimately I would argue is probably one of the least practiced besides Sunday, the least practiced spiritual disciplines that we are commanded to in the Psalms specifically. Yeah. And in the book of James, there's a few other places, even in the New Testament throughout scriptures that demonstrate this is something that we need to be doing more of.

And so Adam has spent most of his years in ministry around worship and music and everything else. But I'm gonna let Adam speak for himself.

Sure.

Adam, share a little bit with us about who you are, what you've been up to, and just the fact that you're a biblical counselor and you're a worship leader, pastor, minister. What's all this about?

Yeah. It's a great question. For having me on your podcast. This is fun. Absolutely.

I have been a worship leader primarily as just a musician for most of my life at this point, according to the math. And the thing that I've learned in my own personal life is that music has done this and I'll use this word and I think you'll know what I mean. Integrative work where the things that I know and the things that I feel come into a kind of alignment through singing that's been really valuable. And so through leading worship, through playing music, through writing songs, through training worship leaders, those kinds of things over a lot of my life, I've just come to believe that's true. Paul says the word of Christ dwells richly in us through singing Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

Is

that clash in three sixteen?

Yeah. And then in Ephesians five, one of the things Paul also says is he says, don't be drunk with wine, but instead be filled with the spirit. And he says the way in which Christians can be ongoingly filled with the spirit is by singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. And so singing just seems to have this deeply central role in the life of God's people in the Old Testament through the book of Psalms and even just consistent admonitions to singing in the New Testament. So I've been compelled by that in worship ministry.

And then over the last maybe seven years as I've been counseling in my church and then the last two doing it a bit more professionally, I've just started to see the value of music and the kind of soul care process. The way in which as biblical counselors, what we're after is people being conformed into the image of Christ. That requires them seeing Jesus for who he is. The way that we see Jesus for who he's in the scriptures. And the scriptures are the things that say the word of Christ that reveals Christ to us dwells in our hearts through singing.

And so singing actually seems to go hand in glove with a lot of what we're after in biblical counseling.

Yeah, no, that's great. That's great. And what I really appreciate about that Adam is again, most of your ministry as far as worship happens on Sunday. We tend to think it's yeah. We Michael, what are you talking about?

We sing, we listen to worship music on the radio, but there's something about when you don't have worship music on a radio, but you're verbally speaking, singing, you're communicating something just like God's word communicates to us. We're communicating. There's a level of surrender there. There's a level of crying out. There's a level of a war cry like I am.

Because when you think about it as a Christian and suffering and the brokenness and the reality of sin in the world that we live in, it's very difficult to sing.

Yes.

Just like prayer. So I think there's a huge correlation between praying and singing.

Yes.

Because James, right, four thirteen, I believe, off the top of my head if I'm I don't know. You got your phone. Maybe you can fact check me.

I'll look it up.

Yeah. But James talks about, is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.

So James four thirteen puts that in probably one of the best ways that you can articulate it explicitly speaking, where he's saying, okay, look, is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. And is anyone cheerful? Let him sing, let him pray, let him sing. Be joyful.

Or Psalm 33, make a shout to the Lord. Like it's vocal, it's loud. It's something that we need to do. Any thoughts on that, Adam?

Yeah. I think you're right. That when we think about the difficulties of life, anything in God's direction is difficult. Any sort of self expression in God's direction is difficult. And this is where I think singing and music becomes so helpful because Emily Dickinson has this poem where she says, tell all the truth, but tell it slant.

That's the first line of the poem. And there's something about the imagery of songwriting, the poetry of songs that it's a little bit less just direct and in your face. Here's the truth, or here's the thing I gotta say. And there's something about telling it a bit slant or getting around to it via metaphor that in some ways can make self expression easier because to say the thing that you actually are experiencing or going through feels too overwhelming to even verbalize. And so singing, I think in that way for sufferers becomes really valuable.

It also is a kind of solidarity when you're singing a song that someone else wrote from a season of difficulty, you begin to experience a little bit of, oh, I'm not the only one. And then with praise, obviously it's this way singing again, being this deeply integrative work of body, spirit, emotions, like it's every part of who we are doing the same thing at the same time in God's direction that makes it so compelling and we feel it and we believe it. And so whether it's in suffering or in on the heights, singing just seems to have this capacity to open our hearts up and to offer whatever's in there to God that's hard with a book or a journal assignment

or something like that. No, that's really good. One of the things you said there in passing a moment ago was belief. We believe it. We were thinking it.

It's a whole personal response. And I think that's another correlation to prayer is it's very difficult in the moment of suffering. As you said, anything that's directed towards God becomes that much more difficult because we go inward. That's the response. So when we sing or we pray, it's an immediate surrender to the truth of who God is.

And it's almost a feeble attempt to say, you know what, Lord? I don't understand it, but I trust it. So when there's something about singing and praising, it's just, you know what? Life is hard, but I trust God's goodness and that he's wise, and I am going to praise him. Like, see that theme over and over in the Psalms.

So I just as someone who leads us in worship and worshiping the Lord, and there's the leading in between the songs to keep that heart posture moving and keep it vertically oriented. How does that feel on that side of it as someone who's leading that that kinda could correlate to a counselor where, like, where we're trying to convince or persuade our counselees that this is good for you. Gonna feel awkward and uncomfortable, but it's gonna be good for you. Does that sort of translate into a Sunday service when you're leading worship?

I haven't thought about it in that way until this moment, but there is something about when I'm sitting in the counseling chair and I'm dialoguing with somebody, which is correlates to the Colossians three thing of teaching and admonishing one another. So there is a horizontal aspect to congregational singing. So I'm doing something as a leader or as a counselor where I'm trying to read the person across from me or the people across from me and to say or see what is resonating? Where do I see people engaging? That could give me the ability to read the room and say, oh, I wanna offer an in between songs admonishment or prayer in this direction because I noticed that the room, the people in the room really latched onto this particular lyric of this particular song in this particular moment.

In the same way that I might share a passage with somebody in a counseling session share a particular thought thinking that one thing was gonna connect with them but something else actually is the bell that rung for them. And so as a good counselor, I'm gonna put my agenda that I thought was gonna be the thing and latch onto this is the thing that's resonating. So that's the same thing that I'm gonna do with worship leading. And there is something spontaneous about that. There is something in the moment.

There is something intuitive and instinctual that's required for that. But in the same way as counselors, learn to do that as a worship leader, think it's a skill that you develop over time.

It lends to the idea of those moments when you're like, the spirit is at work in these moments and the word is being pronounced, the word is being proclaimed, it's being taught and our hearts are responding to it. The spirit is using the word and it's applying it. It's the same thing with music. Yes. Especially when it's biblically, theologically accurate and it's moving in that direction.

And so I just it is an interesting correlation to consider Yes. Of how the dynamic of both of those help draw us to the Lord. And it really does come back to surrendering to him. I just think that is a very, very awesome thing.

Yeah. And that surrender is what creates a kind of openness, like we've said before, that allows for the Lord to do something in us. Music can sometimes get a bad rap in church circles for being emotionally manipulative. As someone who writes songs and sings them and produces them and records them. I just have no problem with the idea of music being emotionally compelling.

That's the point. It only becomes bad when we're trying to grab people's emotions and point them towards something that's not true, good, and beautiful. The whole point of music is to aesthetically grab our senses to create some sensation in us. Can you imagine how silly it would be to not steward that and try to tether it to the things that are true, good and beautiful about Jesus? That would be leaving so much on the table.

And we would never say about a sermon, we don't want people to be emotionally affected by it. That's exactly what we want. We want it to compel them and resonate with them in such a deep way that it moves them towards love for God and neighbor. And that's exactly what music has the capacity to do in sometimes a much more quick or expedient way because it's engaging all of who we are, like I've said already in this conversation.

Yeah. It bears repeating. It bears repeating. But I think to that point though, I think this is what's beautiful because this is an interesting topic. Yeah.

In our current state. And so I'm glad you brought that up. And my thoughts, my immediate thoughts on that, just off the cuff, but I think biblically informed. Sure. If I could say it that way.

Is that with all of this stuff that emotionalism and all this stuff, but read any of the Psalms, what's modifying the noise that we're being commanded to give? A joyful noise. Joy is an emotion.

That's right.

So there's nothing wrong with emotion. But to your point, when it's manipulating those emotions to draw them into an experience that that's not informed by anything.

Or that's emotion for emotion's sake. Right. And that's that I know worship leaders who would say, I just like to make people feel stuff. They would say, even the ones that maybe come from tribes that you might disagree with or whatever. I know no worship leaders who are like, I just like making people feel stuff.

They'd say, I want people's hearts to be ignited in such a way that their love for Jesus is able to be expressed and for them to experience the love of Jesus in a really profound way. For some people that's gonna be according to their sort of natural aesthetic bent that they love this kind of music. And for another kind of person, it's gonna be this kind of music. And one's gonna love really verbose hymns and one's gonna love really repetitive, simple lyric. And all of those are really great.

And the people who love the simple repetitive lyric would really benefit from some hymns. And the hymn people would really benefit from some of these. Psalm 136, every other line is for his steadfast lavenders forever. So it's pretty repetitive. But there's that healthy diet even why Psalms or why Paul says Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

Not just what we like.

Yeah. Yeah. And those are actual Greek phrases.

There is debate among scholars. Is he talking about different kinds of songs or is he really just saying Psalms in three different ways? So there is debate there. Yeah. I'm not smart enough to know the difference.

But I would say to that point, Adam, and that that's a good point even introducing that sort of scholarly argument. But but what's the what's at the end of the day, what's the goal? What's the point? And that is, is the words that we're speaking consistent with scripture?

That's right.

Regardless of whether they're repetitive or they're a little lighter or they're a little more theologically dense and liturgical, because it's all liturgy vertically speaking. Sure. It's all drawing us to him. But I just so with all of that to say the reason why this is such especially for biblical counselors to have is remembering this in your counseling. Yes.

And being able to offer a robust growth assignment to experience and encounter the Lord. Yes. To encourage and cultivate, just in spiritual discipline for spiritual discipline sake, the purpose of the spiritual disciplines is to draw us to the Lord.

That's

right. And so music having, and maybe the person you're counseling is, maybe they're going to a church that does do the repetitive stuff and it's whatever. You're getting consolees from

all sorts of places,

all these different contexts, but offer them something that's going to get them away from just Sunday. That's right. That's going to help them like this. So when I'm sitting down and reading scripture, if there's a song that they know, and they don't have to have the radio to, even if they don't have a good voice, they can just sing quietly among themselves. And there's just something to your point earlier, Adam, there's something that happens in terms of a whole person response.

It's like our soul acknowledges, like whatever the soul is trying to hang on to selfishly, just it just releases and it goes vertical. Yes. And so now all of a sudden that praise is off of self and it's now vertical where it belongs.

And I think I'm thinking about these different people from different contexts with different struggles and different levels of maturity. And there's some people who, you know, a hymn that I might love might conceptually be beyond them. Like it might be too much content for them. But then there are other people who are gonna really resonate with that. And then they're gonna be like a simple song that someone might just really need right now.

And even for me as a counselor then to be able to read the person in front of me, know them well enough to know what might resonate with them. And then yeah, to encourage them to go try expressing themselves to the Lord, because isn't that like any, it's we're doing that quorum deo before the face cover expressing ourselves always. So why not try to be intentional at least with some time when it comes to singing? And when we do makes, at least in my experience, hearts, like I've said already, our hearts open up in such a way that then being open hearted with God in other ways seems a little more doable. Because everybody's familiar with music.

Not everybody's familiar unfortunately with knowing how to study the Bible. Everybody has a favorite song that they love to sing but not everybody knows how to write their own Psalm with Psalm 13 open next to them. And so music just has this way of becoming really approachable and making spirituality and life with God a little less abstract and foreign in a way that I think could be really beneficial to them. And I think as counselors, it's a tool that we could really benefit from using. Like I think about my friend, Bethany Bernard, who wrote a record called All My Questions.

That's about her journey through some of her own personal struggles through the loss of her father. And it's just this beautiful record of her like processing all of that stuff. And I assign that record to people all the time and just go listen to it and then just pick three songs that really resonate with you and then write about why. And I'd love for us to talk about it next time. Yeah.

And I just find that to be so valuable.

Yeah, that's really good. And because again, to everything that we're saying is when we're in the counseling room, and I love the point you made too, is they're gonna be a lot more familiar with the music than they are the word for being honest. Sure. As far as being able to study the word, interpret everything that they're reading. But that's the thing about music is it's arguably more interpretive because there's more involved in it.

So if we can get a counselor to start there and then lead them into opening the word, because a lot of times we'll encourage counsel leads to pray before they get into the word. I know personally, like, I have to pray before I get into the word. Right? Just because a lot of times my heart's distracted. I'm not focused.

I'm not in the place where I know I want my heart to be in order to receive the Lord's word in a way that would be helpful and beneficial to me. And I think it's the same thing for music. So clearly my argument is music is just as important as prayer. And James says so.

And it's form of praying. And that's why even like in my work with some of the folks that I partner with in my ministry and that I work with at the Worship Initiative and Shane, we've created this like daily sing devotional.

Yeah, tell us about that.

Yeah, it's called Sing, very creative of us. And it's just a text. It texts you a link every day to maybe a ten to fifteen minute guided devotional through particular part of scripture and then singing and it gives you the lyrics on your phone. And so it's just this way to hopefully put the cookies a little bit more on the bottom shelf so that singing can become a spiritual discipline just like prayer or reading scripture. And we've just found, we want people just like we would say with the Bible, we don't want them to, the only time someone engages with the Bible is at a counseling session or at church on Sunday.

We would say, man, we don't want the only time that people are singing and really opening their hearts and expressing their love to the Lord or expressing something honestly to the Lord to be in songs on Sunday. And so if we can have people arrive ready to church on Sunday, then they're all the more ready to teach and admonish one another with psalms hymns and spiritual songs with gratefulness in their hearts to God. And then in their daily life, the word of Christ dwells richly in them as they sing so that something becomes really worrisome in their life. And they've been singing, surely goodness, surely mercy beside me all my days. And that lyric clicks in their, comes to their mind in a moment where before they would have been prone to worry.

Now they're feeling worried but they have a different direction that they can take their mind in that moment because a song is that kind of portable theology that allows them to access something true about God quickly. And then if even, if they wanted to, they could even sing it even under their breath while they're in their office to help bring them back into alignment with what's true about God, what's true about them in Christ. And then maybe they'd find their hearts a little bit more at peace in the middle of something difficult.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And also what's I think consistent with all of this is that the spirit doesn't waste any of that.

That's right.

The more time we read the word, the more time we pray, the more time we sing and we develop those spiritual disciplines, those rhythms of grace. The spirit is very faithful and consistent to bring that to our minds. And so I definitely, appreciate and agree with what you're saying that this you it will come to your mind because that's how the spirit takes those things That's right. And brings it to your remembrance when you need it.

That's right.

Yeah. So it's beautiful. Well, Adam, thank you for being with us, man. This is we're gonna we're gonna do something assuming you agree to it that we've never done on this podcast.

Great.

Can I ask you to lead us in the doxology and we'll try to back up from the mic so that everyone doesn't have to turn down? Could you just, we've literally never done this before.

I love it.

But again, as counselors, we have to model the very things that we're encouraging our counselors to do.

And the way my friend Shane says it before we sing is that you have vocal cords. And so you're a singer. It doesn't mean you're the best singer ever, but because you have vocal cords means God assumes you will sing. And so it's a really wonderful part of our creativeness that we just get to do even if we're uncomfortable with it. So we'll just sing the doxology.

All

right. Praise God from whom all blessings flow. Praise him all creatures here below praise him above you heavenly host Praise father, son, and holy ghost. Amen. As my friend Lee Lewis does when someone makes a good point.

That's right. I love it. Man, thank you for having me on today. I'm so grateful for ABC, for you and Shauna, the investment that people like y'all have made in people like me to enable me to do the things that I do. So it's fun to get to to partner up

with you.

See you at the conference too.

Yes. Yes. We're looking forward to that. And y'all, you for listening, and I'm glad that Adam led the singing part because I was very low to your point. I have vocal cords, but I'm minimally gonna practice using them.

So I

love it. Brother. Thank you for this time. Thank you for recording with us on this podcast. Thank you guys for listening, and we'll see you guys next time.