WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.081 --> 00:00:01.431 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:01.570 --> 00:00:01.769 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Ministry. 00:00:02.665 --> 00:00:03.655 Thank you so much, Matt. 00:00:03.715 --> 00:00:05.075 It's my pleasure to be here. 00:00:05.165 --> 00:00:05.255 The 00:00:05.255 --> 00:00:07.835 pleasure's all on this side of the table, just so you know. 00:00:08.671 --> 00:00:08.792 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: we 00:00:08.792 --> 00:00:09.692 were just chatting before we 00:00:09.692 --> 00:00:10.442 hit record. 00:00:10.541 --> 00:00:15.101 apparently we met at Prestige Comp, which happened eons ago. 00:00:15.221 --> 00:00:18.041 So you've been in this game for quite a while. 00:00:18.092 --> 00:00:22.022 so for folks that don't know, what is it that you do in WordPress? 00:00:22.505 --> 00:00:24.935 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: yeah, I've been in it for 20 years, I think now. 00:00:25.055 --> 00:00:27.305 I think WordPress is 21 years old or something like that. 00:00:27.364 --> 00:00:29.794 but I, I run an agency called the Mighty Mo. 00:00:29.794 --> 00:00:32.584 Been doing it 18 years at the Mighty Mo WordPress. 00:00:32.884 --> 00:00:36.225 For the first few days we were doing flash and I. 00:00:36.900 --> 00:00:40.920 About one month into the Mighty Mo, Steve Jobs came out and said, flash is dead. 00:00:40.980 --> 00:00:42.630 And so I'm like, okay, flash is dead. 00:00:42.690 --> 00:00:43.350 What's next? 00:00:43.950 --> 00:00:47.079 So I, started doing WordPress, right, that I had actually tried 00:00:47.079 --> 00:00:50.630 Jula and Drupal on, dream Hosts one click install at that time. 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:51.800 And I couldn't figure it out. 00:00:51.800 --> 00:00:55.370 I was not like a trained coder by any means, but I knew like HTML and 00:00:55.370 --> 00:00:59.780 FTP and I knew Flash, but WordPress, I could get going and then like. 00:01:00.515 --> 00:01:03.995 This is what the amazing thing about WordPress was to me, was 00:01:03.995 --> 00:01:07.625 that like you could go in edit code, in like your template. 00:01:07.625 --> 00:01:10.595 Once you figured out where the theme was, you could like edit it and see the 00:01:10.595 --> 00:01:15.605 change, which was like revolutionary, you know, like it was so cool. 00:01:16.467 --> 00:01:19.017 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: I'm looking at your LinkedIn profile, so the 00:01:19.017 --> 00:01:19.946 mighty Moe. 00:01:20.097 --> 00:01:21.776 I'm seeing you started out 00:01:22.107 --> 00:01:25.196 as developer, then went to CTO, then went to president. 00:01:25.675 --> 00:01:25.965 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah. 00:01:26.185 --> 00:01:26.485 You know, 00:01:27.896 --> 00:01:28.556 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: explain 00:01:28.556 --> 00:01:29.127 that one to 00:01:29.185 --> 00:01:30.345 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: there's no explanation. 00:01:30.429 --> 00:01:32.020 I've owned the company the whole time. 00:01:32.060 --> 00:01:35.060 I think it's been like my idiot attempt at marketing. 00:01:35.300 --> 00:01:40.550 Like, and, so I, I have, there's no good reason for me to be, I'm, I've, I'm 00:01:40.550 --> 00:01:42.320 legally the president of the company, 00:01:42.320 --> 00:01:44.180 but, sometimes I've been afraid. 00:01:44.180 --> 00:01:46.790 I think like just owning a business, I'm always afraid of like. 00:01:47.375 --> 00:01:47.585 like. 00:01:47.585 --> 00:01:52.325 what I'm thinking, like what, when people talk to somebody, am I better off 00:01:52.325 --> 00:01:56.914 being the CEO president or am I better off being like, no, just talk to me. 00:01:56.914 --> 00:01:59.975 I'm a regular marketer guy, like at the company, and I, 00:02:00.125 --> 00:02:01.505 I just like that entry point. 00:02:01.505 --> 00:02:03.560 I'm never sure like what's best, you know? 00:02:04.246 --> 00:02:06.346 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Oftentimes it's best not to even tell anybody 00:02:06.346 --> 00:02:10.306 what you do in the tech space because then they start asking you all kinds 00:02:10.306 --> 00:02:11.957 of questions to see if you can solve 00:02:11.957 --> 00:02:13.337 their pain points. 00:02:13.387 --> 00:02:14.107 at least that's what I 00:02:14.170 --> 00:02:15.340 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: you fix my wifi 00:02:15.997 --> 00:02:16.237 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah. 00:02:16.267 --> 00:02:16.627 No, man. 00:02:16.627 --> 00:02:16.927 I do 00:02:16.927 --> 00:02:18.667 websites and I'm barely str, I'm 00:02:18.667 --> 00:02:19.837 barely holding on with that. 00:02:20.797 --> 00:02:24.547 I re, we connected because I recently put out a, a, our weekly newsletter. 00:02:24.547 --> 00:02:27.347 And, oftentimes, the WP Minute newsletter, I'll have like a, 00:02:27.407 --> 00:02:27.527 a 00:02:27.527 --> 00:02:31.047 little, opening, salvo, a little personal message and really 00:02:31.047 --> 00:02:33.147 starting to get stuck in with ai. 00:02:33.147 --> 00:02:37.857 And I'm really starting to wonder how this is impacting small business. 00:02:38.017 --> 00:02:40.117 what I call small business web design agencies. 00:02:40.117 --> 00:02:41.497 You might have a different label for it. 00:02:41.767 --> 00:02:44.107 I think there's ultimately two camps. 00:02:44.852 --> 00:02:45.032 You are 00:02:45.032 --> 00:02:47.112 either deathly afraid of this stuff, or, 00:02:47.767 --> 00:02:50.052 or you don't think anything is happening. 00:02:50.052 --> 00:02:51.942 At least that's what I see on Twitter. 00:02:51.942 --> 00:02:53.292 Either people just brush this off 00:02:53.292 --> 00:02:54.912 as like, ah, it's not even really a thing. 00:02:55.212 --> 00:02:56.892 Or people are like, oh my God, 00:02:56.892 --> 00:02:58.782 we're all gonna lose our jobs. 00:02:58.842 --> 00:03:03.402 I'm hoping to be somewhere in the middle where we can find efficiencies 00:03:03.402 --> 00:03:06.552 with this stuff, leverage it, at least for the next few years. 00:03:06.552 --> 00:03:06.582 I, 00:03:07.267 --> 00:03:09.852 I don't really have a crystal ball beyond that. 00:03:10.452 --> 00:03:14.432 And I'm curious, your take on your, you know, two decades in 00:03:14.432 --> 00:03:16.742 this space, is it impacting you? 00:03:16.982 --> 00:03:20.312 Are you think, how are you thinking about this impacting your business, if at all? 00:03:20.312 --> 00:03:22.442 Where do you sit with AI in your agency? 00:03:22.835 --> 00:03:26.870 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: One year ago I was scared to death, so scared 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.960 that I hired a full-time SEO guy who still works for the Mighty Mo. 00:03:30.500 --> 00:03:33.620 But we branched off, we're like, we're gonna sell marketing services 00:03:33.620 --> 00:03:35.060 rather than development services. 00:03:35.090 --> 00:03:36.650 'cause I was so scared of ai. 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:39.620 This was a year or so ago and we've since sold some SEO and we're 00:03:39.620 --> 00:03:40.790 kind of, it's been a neat journey. 00:03:40.790 --> 00:03:42.410 Like be like, okay, now we're doing SEO too. 00:03:42.440 --> 00:03:42.770 Cool. 00:03:43.100 --> 00:03:45.140 but what I've learned, like I've spent. 00:03:45.650 --> 00:03:46.310 So here's an example. 00:03:46.310 --> 00:03:49.940 I'm building a project management plugin with ai, with chat 00:03:49.940 --> 00:03:51.800 GPT, basically, and co-pilot. 00:03:52.550 --> 00:03:57.860 And what I've learned in that is like AI is a decent, like junior level dev 00:03:57.860 --> 00:04:02.030 assistant and like maybe mid-level, like it can help you, like organize 00:04:02.270 --> 00:04:05.630 your thoughts and your code, but like I'm no longer afraid of it. 00:04:05.690 --> 00:04:10.460 Like, so it saved me hundreds of hours so far on this project, but someone 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:14.450 without deep WordPress knowledge would've never been able to build this. 00:04:15.245 --> 00:04:16.655 Base, pretty basic plugin 00:04:16.805 --> 00:04:18.095 that I built with it and you know, 00:04:18.125 --> 00:04:21.485 like in a hundred hours time using AI exclusively, you know, 00:04:21.785 --> 00:04:23.195 so I'm no longer afraid of it. 00:04:23.315 --> 00:04:24.935 It's changing the industry though, 00:04:24.965 --> 00:04:25.805 without a doubt. 00:04:25.805 --> 00:04:29.405 Like, and I think too, like, like it's, I think, well first 00:04:29.405 --> 00:04:31.355 of all, I think I adapt or die. 00:04:31.385 --> 00:04:36.065 That's, and you know, because you've been in this so long, I have so much 00:04:36.065 --> 00:04:40.325 respect for people like you who've been in the game any game for 15 years. 00:04:40.655 --> 00:04:42.125 You know, you have to adapt. 00:04:42.185 --> 00:04:42.365 And 00:04:42.365 --> 00:04:43.385 if you don't adapt. 00:04:43.760 --> 00:04:44.270 You're gone. 00:04:44.370 --> 00:04:45.480 and so yeah, it's changing. 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:50.310 Like I see, like, so I deal with small businesses and small nonprofits, and I've 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:58.950 done that for 18 years at the Mighty Mo and we, we are losing very new businesses. 00:04:59.460 --> 00:05:03.840 To AI and Wix and Squarespace, without a doubt we're losing them. 00:05:04.020 --> 00:05:06.420 like they're no longer calling me to build their sites. 00:05:06.570 --> 00:05:09.690 And when I talk to them and I'm like, yeah, it's gonna be like 10 grand, 00:05:09.690 --> 00:05:11.010 they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. 00:05:11.010 --> 00:05:12.180 I was thinking like 300. 00:05:12.300 --> 00:05:15.240 And I'm like, well, like we're not a great fit, probably. 00:05:15.640 --> 00:05:19.240 and so that's a common conversation with, you know, incoming leads. 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:23.150 But the people who, still wanna hire us, if you picture this, 00:05:23.150 --> 00:05:25.280 like let's say you're a marketing. 00:05:25.820 --> 00:05:29.179 Mid-level marketing manager at a small to mid-size company. 00:05:29.179 --> 00:05:34.250 So you're an employee and you're gonna put your career on the line. 00:05:34.250 --> 00:05:37.609 You're gonna hand your career to someone like me or to ai. 00:05:38.150 --> 00:05:42.560 The problem with this is if you hand it to me and you pay more, but like I'm now the. 00:05:42.935 --> 00:05:44.974 The, if I screw up, I'm the fault. 00:05:45.034 --> 00:05:46.325 I'm at fault, not you. 00:05:46.534 --> 00:05:50.945 If you hire AI to do it and they screw up, you're at fault as the marketing manager. 00:05:51.034 --> 00:05:55.145 And so like, I think like these, there's like a very human thing, 00:05:55.145 --> 00:05:59.585 like these mid-level people who work at the employees part of their game 00:05:59.585 --> 00:06:01.745 is like offshoring risk to others. 00:06:01.745 --> 00:06:01.984 So they 00:06:01.984 --> 00:06:04.145 can survive in that role and get promoted. 00:06:04.625 --> 00:06:07.804 And like AI does not, is not good for them. 00:06:08.135 --> 00:06:08.375 You know? 00:06:08.854 --> 00:06:10.685 'cause then they're putting their butts on the line. 00:06:11.012 --> 00:06:14.072 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I, you know, ever since I started podcasting, 00:06:14.072 --> 00:06:18.632 when I ran my agency, it was to learn how to run an agency and quite literally 00:06:18.871 --> 00:06:22.342 see, you know, what the market was doing. 00:06:22.342 --> 00:06:26.812 Like understand how people were selling sites and you know, what 00:06:26.812 --> 00:06:28.582 the, what the landscape looked like. 00:06:29.032 --> 00:06:30.682 The thing back then, when I was, when I 00:06:30.682 --> 00:06:34.312 started the mat report, whatever, 15 years ago, it was, oh, what 00:06:34.312 --> 00:06:36.262 are we gonna do about the $500 website? 00:06:36.546 --> 00:06:36.787 Right. 00:06:36.787 --> 00:06:40.546 That was like a question that I had on repeat on a lot of my, podcast episodes. 00:06:40.576 --> 00:06:43.607 'cause you know, that was the thing, like when I started my agency, people 00:06:43.607 --> 00:06:44.986 would come to me like, I got 500 bucks. 00:06:44.986 --> 00:06:45.977 I'm like, 500 bucks. 00:06:46.816 --> 00:06:48.136 Like, what's happening here? 00:06:48.136 --> 00:06:48.556 Like, what do you 00:06:48.556 --> 00:06:49.457 expect to do? 00:06:49.787 --> 00:06:53.087 And you know, fast forward 20 years later, 00:06:53.686 --> 00:06:54.016 it's 00:06:54.016 --> 00:06:55.876 almost like the same concern. 00:06:56.266 --> 00:06:58.936 you know, so it's like we've seen this hype cycle 00:06:58.936 --> 00:07:00.196 come around, right? 00:07:00.286 --> 00:07:01.216 Small budgets. 00:07:01.936 --> 00:07:04.696 Then theme forest people are like, oh, I could just buy a theme. 00:07:04.696 --> 00:07:06.407 You can't do it for a few hundred bucks. 00:07:06.556 --> 00:07:09.806 And then the the adoption or the rise of like, say like Elementor 00:07:09.806 --> 00:07:13.017 beaver builder Divvy, and people are like, oh, we got this page builder. 00:07:13.017 --> 00:07:14.247 Like, can't you do it for 300? 00:07:14.247 --> 00:07:15.957 But now it's like, we've got ai, can't 00:07:15.957 --> 00:07:16.676 you just do it 00:07:16.676 --> 00:07:17.577 for 300 bucks? 00:07:18.417 --> 00:07:18.777 So 00:07:19.467 --> 00:07:21.777 I'm trying to temper that expectation. 00:07:22.077 --> 00:07:24.056 Maybe an expectation is the wrong word, but I'm trying to temper 00:07:24.056 --> 00:07:24.477 like 00:07:24.537 --> 00:07:25.347 this outlook for 00:07:25.347 --> 00:07:25.676 ai. 00:07:25.676 --> 00:07:26.187 Like, okay. 00:07:26.667 --> 00:07:28.227 Let's all just exhale for 00:07:28.227 --> 00:07:28.767 a second. 00:07:29.127 --> 00:07:34.257 I think professional services is still a thing and what it might do is 00:07:34.257 --> 00:07:36.357 maybe bring down the real high end. 00:07:36.357 --> 00:07:36.417 I. 00:07:37.046 --> 00:07:42.116 To us, you know, the Tobys and the mats of the world who are running just a good 00:07:42.116 --> 00:07:44.607 solid small business web design agency. 00:07:44.787 --> 00:07:45.027 Right? 00:07:45.027 --> 00:07:48.296 Maybe, you know, our friends at the higher end might see 00:07:48.342 --> 00:07:49.436 a, a bit of a hit, 00:07:49.917 --> 00:07:50.577 and those bigger 00:07:50.577 --> 00:07:53.337 brands might reach out to you and I or those of us 00:07:53.337 --> 00:07:54.897 listening, going, you know what? 00:07:55.616 --> 00:07:57.506 We've got a, we've got a big budget for you. 00:07:57.566 --> 00:07:58.766 Small budget for us. 00:07:58.859 --> 00:07:59.250 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah. 00:07:59.280 --> 00:07:59.640 Yeah. 00:07:59.876 --> 00:08:01.016 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Let's work together. 00:08:01.356 --> 00:08:03.126 have you seen any of the market shift? 00:08:03.126 --> 00:08:05.556 It sounds like the entry level is shifting, but have you seen 00:08:05.556 --> 00:08:07.986 any of the higher end of the market shift to your favor? 00:08:08.499 --> 00:08:08.829 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah. 00:08:08.829 --> 00:08:13.840 So at least one of your podcast guests who owned a big agency in Minneapolis has 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:16.840 gone through this, and I know this because I know some of the people work there 00:08:17.619 --> 00:08:21.460 and I worked with another agency in town who was getting these high level, you 00:08:21.460 --> 00:08:23.379 know, I was collaborating on, on big. 00:08:23.979 --> 00:08:24.879 Corporate clients 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:25.419 with them. 00:08:25.749 --> 00:08:30.309 And I know for a fact that they, both these companies are, who are like in 00:08:30.309 --> 00:08:34.299 my way, getting way bigger fish than I could ever get and I ever wanna get 00:08:34.299 --> 00:08:37.239 maybe, but like they are firing people. 00:08:37.299 --> 00:08:40.239 Like they're, they're, and I, that's how I know they're getting squeezed 00:08:40.239 --> 00:08:42.609 because, and my, my hunch is that like. 00:08:42.894 --> 00:08:45.654 A lot of the work that these high-end companies do is 00:08:45.804 --> 00:08:47.634 prototyping, like prototyping. 00:08:48.084 --> 00:08:50.994 Hey, we have an I, like, you know, I'm Target Corp and I have this 00:08:50.994 --> 00:08:53.034 idea, can you build something for us? 00:08:53.034 --> 00:08:56.904 And you have a lot of con and now they just go to like potentially, I 00:08:56.904 --> 00:09:00.264 mean, I could see a scenario where to prototype, just like, let's say give 00:09:00.264 --> 00:09:03.924 a small team at Target, like you guys go to this AI tool and build something 00:09:04.434 --> 00:09:06.384 in the next six weeks or whatever. 00:09:06.594 --> 00:09:06.894 Like. 00:09:07.689 --> 00:09:09.399 To me that seems really reasonable. 00:09:09.429 --> 00:09:11.439 Like from Target's perspective, and then 00:09:11.439 --> 00:09:13.239 you bring that to the agency, maybe. 00:09:13.339 --> 00:09:13.400 yeah, 00:09:13.816 --> 00:09:14.116 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah, 00:09:14.449 --> 00:09:15.259 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: but the, yeah. 00:09:15.259 --> 00:09:15.560 Mm-hmm. 00:09:15.586 --> 00:09:16.816 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Toby's saying Target, 'cause target's 00:09:16.816 --> 00:09:17.956 pretty big in Minneapolis, right? 00:09:18.331 --> 00:09:18.601 Yeah. 00:09:18.634 --> 00:09:18.874 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah. 00:09:19.040 --> 00:09:19.489 They're the biggest. 00:09:19.686 --> 00:09:21.941 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I remember at Prestige Comp, it's 00:09:21.941 --> 00:09:23.741 also very cold where you are and 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:24.209 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: it's cold 00:09:24.209 --> 00:09:24.689 right here. 00:09:24.689 --> 00:09:25.564 Where I'm at right now. 00:09:25.904 --> 00:09:26.759 I'm in the basement. 00:09:27.086 --> 00:09:29.156 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: and I remember walking around and 00:09:29.156 --> 00:09:31.046 you have a just Skywalks, right? 00:09:31.046 --> 00:09:31.376 Is that what it's 00:09:31.376 --> 00:09:31.616 called? 00:09:31.616 --> 00:09:33.836 And they're just skyways and they're connected. 00:09:33.866 --> 00:09:34.766 they connect to all these buildings 00:09:34.766 --> 00:09:35.246 downtown. 00:09:35.246 --> 00:09:37.807 And I remember, being like, ah, I need to, I need to, work out, 00:09:37.807 --> 00:09:39.396 but I, I forgot my gym clothes. 00:09:39.427 --> 00:09:41.766 And somebody was like, oh, there's a target right across the way. 00:09:41.766 --> 00:09:44.527 Just walk over here, you know, take a left, do a right, go down these stairs. 00:09:44.587 --> 00:09:45.396 And I did that. 00:09:45.396 --> 00:09:46.627 And I'm walking around, I'm like. 00:09:46.642 --> 00:09:48.082 It says Target, 00:09:48.532 --> 00:09:49.342 but what's up with all these 00:09:49.342 --> 00:09:49.972 offices? 00:09:49.972 --> 00:09:52.012 It's like, where's the store? 00:09:52.162 --> 00:09:52.372 Right. 00:09:52.432 --> 00:09:54.322 And it was just like the corporate headquarters. 00:09:54.322 --> 00:09:58.072 And I'm like, and they're like, oh no, the, the, the, the store's down, down the 00:09:58.140 --> 00:09:58.360 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yep. 00:09:58.410 --> 00:09:58.760 Uhhuh. 00:09:59.272 --> 00:10:00.502 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: so it's deeply rooted down there. 00:10:01.012 --> 00:10:01.282 I've 00:10:01.282 --> 00:10:05.122 been practicing and demonstrating the power of something that you 00:10:05.122 --> 00:10:07.332 just said, which was, prototyping. 00:10:07.722 --> 00:10:10.422 And this is where I see the advantage of. 00:10:11.427 --> 00:10:11.847 AI 00:10:11.847 --> 00:10:15.327 for WordPress, at least now in the, in the short term, is 00:10:15.327 --> 00:10:17.157 to build on top of WordPress. 00:10:17.187 --> 00:10:20.777 So I recently did a video of just building with Bolt, something that 00:10:20.777 --> 00:10:24.047 connect your traditional headless WordPress, something that folks would've 00:10:24.047 --> 00:10:24.977 knocked on our doors. 00:10:25.712 --> 00:10:28.112 10, 15 years ago to say, please build this headless WordPress. 00:10:28.112 --> 00:10:29.882 The budget's 50 grand or a hundred grand. 00:10:29.882 --> 00:10:30.602 Can you do it? 00:10:31.172 --> 00:10:35.132 I did it in minutes with Bolt building a React app and just leveraging 00:10:35.132 --> 00:10:36.812 the wonderful WordPress rest API. 00:10:37.172 --> 00:10:39.032 I'm not a developer, I'm just a power user, right? 00:10:39.032 --> 00:10:42.152 I kind of know the stuff, so I know what to ask for, and I was like, 00:10:42.152 --> 00:10:44.012 man, this is really powerful and. 00:10:44.687 --> 00:10:48.527 The positive side of me is looking at WordPress going, there's 00:10:48.527 --> 00:10:49.727 definitely an advantage 00:10:49.727 --> 00:10:50.057 here. 00:10:50.147 --> 00:10:50.657 WordPress is 00:10:50.657 --> 00:10:51.677 great for publishing. 00:10:51.707 --> 00:10:53.657 Whether you agree with Gutenberg or not, 00:10:53.657 --> 00:10:55.607 it's still a great publishing platform. 00:10:56.177 --> 00:11:01.787 And now with ai, we can build stuff on top of it to extract that data, right? 00:11:01.787 --> 00:11:05.417 Build those apps we've always wanted to build, but have WordPress as the backend. 00:11:06.137 --> 00:11:07.097 Do you have any future? 00:11:07.342 --> 00:11:10.532 Forward, thinking about those opportunities with WordPress 00:11:10.532 --> 00:11:12.272 that aren't websites like something 00:11:12.302 --> 00:11:13.382 else we can do. 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:15.330 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Well, yeah, I mean, I told you I'm 00:11:15.330 --> 00:11:16.710 building this project management app 00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:21.040 for one, but, so I've built it with all, with core WordPress functionality. 00:11:21.075 --> 00:11:24.400 No, no React, no modules, nothing like that. 00:11:24.400 --> 00:11:28.110 It's just, just straight up, you know, API, not even a, not even the 00:11:28.110 --> 00:11:32.750 W-P-A-P-I, we're talking a plugin and a theme and, I think that, and I'm 00:11:32.750 --> 00:11:34.340 planning on releasing it as a SaaS, 00:11:34.370 --> 00:11:35.990 like on top of WordPress. 00:11:36.545 --> 00:11:39.035 Running a plugin and theme in some sort of, you know, 00:11:39.035 --> 00:11:40.355 multi-tenant, blah, blah, blah. 00:11:40.775 --> 00:11:43.565 but I just, I think like when you think of WordPress, headless, 00:11:43.655 --> 00:11:45.335 I mean, endless possibilities. 00:11:45.335 --> 00:11:46.685 Think of this like I was thinking today, I. 00:11:47.195 --> 00:11:49.955 The WordPress dashboard is so confusing. 00:11:50.195 --> 00:11:54.305 Onboarding is so confusing, and I submitted a ticket to WordPress core, 00:11:54.565 --> 00:11:57.205 three years ago to add a button. 00:11:57.205 --> 00:12:02.305 So you go to post, you can add new pages, add new, I wanted a a, a menu add new. 00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:05.200 And I've submitted a ticket earlier this week. 00:12:05.710 --> 00:12:08.530 I got a reply saying it's been merged into another ticket. 00:12:08.590 --> 00:12:10.180 I go, great, something's happening. 00:12:10.180 --> 00:12:12.790 I go to that ticket, 11 years old, 00:12:13.210 --> 00:12:16.390 and it's, and there's been no conversation for 11 years. 00:12:16.390 --> 00:12:19.420 And I'm going, this is just an add new menu button. 00:12:19.630 --> 00:12:19.960 And so 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:23.000 like, if you think of this WordPress dashboard, so confusing. 00:12:23.030 --> 00:12:25.970 I go in there, I'm in there hours every day and sometimes I have 00:12:25.970 --> 00:12:28.340 trouble finding the plugins menu on the left side because I'm like. 00:12:28.940 --> 00:12:29.510 Gosh darn it. 00:12:29.510 --> 00:12:31.190 Where is the plugins on this site? 00:12:31.220 --> 00:12:34.910 'cause like it's pushed up or down and there's colorful depending on the site. 00:12:35.270 --> 00:12:38.390 So like, I'm just thinking like, let's just say you wanted 00:12:38.390 --> 00:12:40.790 to attack Wix or wordpress.com 00:12:40.790 --> 00:12:42.290 as like a SaaS app, 00:12:42.290 --> 00:12:44.570 like endless possibilities 00:12:44.570 --> 00:12:46.610 like just headless WordPress. 00:12:46.640 --> 00:12:48.770 Yeah, we're just gonna build a way better ui. 00:12:48.770 --> 00:12:52.130 And maybe it's less feature rich, but it's like way better like, 00:12:52.430 --> 00:12:54.950 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I wonder, you know, Matt Mullenweg has often 00:12:54.950 --> 00:12:59.140 said, or at least a few times, said that he's always seen Gutenberg as a bigger 00:12:59.140 --> 00:13:01.390 open source project than WordPress. 00:13:02.230 --> 00:13:02.620 And even 00:13:02.620 --> 00:13:05.670 with the temperature of WordPress, in the room these days, and, you know, 00:13:05.670 --> 00:13:08.460 some of the Matt Mullens decisions, I, I 00:13:08.880 --> 00:13:12.540 am still trying to unpack that because I think for one thing, like a lot of 00:13:12.540 --> 00:13:16.920 the things he says as say positive, um. 00:13:17.935 --> 00:13:19.105 outlooks for WordPress. 00:13:19.975 --> 00:13:20.155 I, 00:13:20.185 --> 00:13:23.125 he's always pro, like I, when he says those things, he's always projecting. 00:13:23.125 --> 00:13:23.575 So like, 00:13:23.785 --> 00:13:24.625 WordPress has the 00:13:24.625 --> 00:13:26.695 operating system of the web, which he said, 00:13:26.785 --> 00:13:28.345 you know, many, many, many years ago. 00:13:28.675 --> 00:13:31.165 Like, I think we're finally kind of maybe seeing that. 00:13:31.375 --> 00:13:31.495 And 00:13:31.495 --> 00:13:34.555 then when he said, Gutenberg as a bigger project than WordPress, I was like, 00:13:34.855 --> 00:13:35.395 how? 00:13:35.935 --> 00:13:36.865 In the back of my head, I'm like, 00:13:36.865 --> 00:13:38.425 why, how do you think of that? 00:13:38.635 --> 00:13:42.745 But now maybe with like AI and what WordPress 00:13:42.745 --> 00:13:44.215 might morph into, which 00:13:44.215 --> 00:13:44.605 is like. 00:13:44.890 --> 00:13:47.950 Just a database of content that you can publish in. 00:13:48.760 --> 00:13:51.130 I'm like, well, maybe he's onto something with a Gutenberg 00:13:51.208 --> 00:13:52.738 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Can I, can I just weigh in there? 00:13:52.738 --> 00:13:55.458 Because, Matt's been an inspiration to me personally. 00:13:55.608 --> 00:13:56.598 I've never met Matt. 00:13:56.628 --> 00:13:59.898 I've worked directly for Matt, but I've never met him 00:14:00.018 --> 00:14:02.868 and so I, I've only interacted with him I think twice in my life, 00:14:02.868 --> 00:14:05.808 but I followed him and he's been an inspir inspiration for me. 00:14:05.808 --> 00:14:10.318 I started out, when I came to moved to Minneapolis in 2003, I stumbled 00:14:10.318 --> 00:14:13.558 into WordPress that led me to the open source community, and Matt was truly 00:14:13.558 --> 00:14:16.438 a leader of the open source community back then and probably still is today. 00:14:17.068 --> 00:14:17.968 What I think Matt. 00:14:19.108 --> 00:14:21.328 He's been inspiring to the community too, like whether or not 00:14:21.328 --> 00:14:22.738 you, like Gutenberg or whatever. 00:14:23.188 --> 00:14:27.268 That was like a, a tipping point where a lot of people got excited 00:14:27.628 --> 00:14:28.618 and a lot of people got pissed. 00:14:28.618 --> 00:14:31.948 But I was, I go, great, you have a vision, let's go. 00:14:32.308 --> 00:14:36.238 I, a couple weeks ago or months ago, he was at, I think Word, word Camp Japan. 00:14:36.238 --> 00:14:39.088 And somebody in the audience was like, Hey, what's the future WordPress? 00:14:39.088 --> 00:14:41.038 And he, his response was, it was really flip. 00:14:41.038 --> 00:14:42.088 It was just like, oh, ai. 00:14:42.508 --> 00:14:44.128 And I'm like, that's not a. 00:14:44.488 --> 00:14:46.618 Anything to grab that's not inspiring. 00:14:46.618 --> 00:14:47.698 It's not interesting. 00:14:47.698 --> 00:14:49.078 It's not a feature. 00:14:49.078 --> 00:14:52.798 It's not like I would've loved for him to be like, we're gonna make it so 00:14:52.798 --> 00:14:56.848 you can click any block in WordPress and use AI to generate content. 00:14:57.088 --> 00:15:00.148 Like something like that would be really interesting. 00:15:00.448 --> 00:15:00.568 Like, 00:15:00.808 --> 00:15:03.298 and I just think that right now, like you just described, 00:15:03.298 --> 00:15:05.458 a future of WordPress that is. 00:15:05.743 --> 00:15:08.773 One possible future of many, but there's no clear direction. 00:15:08.773 --> 00:15:10.003 Everybody has a different direction. 00:15:10.003 --> 00:15:14.803 Like juiced is forming this new nonprofit thing, and I'm going like, 00:15:15.523 --> 00:15:17.593 this isn't a direction for WordPress. 00:15:17.593 --> 00:15:21.583 This is like something nobody who uses Word, like no end user cares about 00:15:21.583 --> 00:15:26.173 your like nonprofit or organization that's gonna govern WordPress. 00:15:26.173 --> 00:15:28.753 Nobody cares about that out in the wild. 00:15:28.753 --> 00:15:31.213 Like, you know, people like you and me might care about it, 00:15:31.213 --> 00:15:31.453 but. 00:15:32.128 --> 00:15:35.738 When Matt did the, breaking changes for WordPress, really with the Gutenberg 00:15:35.738 --> 00:15:37.568 editor, I go, that's a vision. 00:15:37.718 --> 00:15:37.838 At 00:15:37.838 --> 00:15:41.048 least, you know, and, he, and and by the way, he did that years ago, 00:15:41.048 --> 00:15:44.168 probably when you were getting started with the, the update to the dashboard 00:15:44.168 --> 00:15:46.538 when they moved the navigation from the top to the left side. 00:15:46.538 --> 00:15:46.688 And, 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:47.220 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah. 00:15:48.188 --> 00:15:48.428 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: there's 00:15:48.428 --> 00:15:51.088 been other things in there like, auto push updates. 00:15:51.088 --> 00:15:54.118 Like, I feel like anytime you have friction, you know, you're like, at least 00:15:54.118 --> 00:15:55.918 you're onto something with some meat. 00:15:55.978 --> 00:15:56.188 Like, 00:15:56.575 --> 00:15:56.965 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah, yeah, 00:15:57.718 --> 00:15:58.618 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: it comes to features mm-hmm. 00:15:58.825 --> 00:16:00.925 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I mean, you know, my feedback with that, 00:16:00.925 --> 00:16:05.305 like anything where the, where the real issues are just human issues. 00:16:05.305 --> 00:16:07.765 It's not the software or the feature. 00:16:08.065 --> 00:16:13.105 It's that nobody will take charge to make a decision, like we have to move forward. 00:16:13.525 --> 00:16:14.125 So. 00:16:14.435 --> 00:16:15.095 Somebody has 00:16:15.095 --> 00:16:15.965 to make a decision. 00:16:16.115 --> 00:16:16.595 And 00:16:16.925 --> 00:16:17.375 obviously 00:16:17.375 --> 00:16:17.525 we. 00:16:17.525 --> 00:16:21.005 all thought the organization was structured 00:16:21.005 --> 00:16:24.225 slightly different, than what has been exposed through all of this stuff. 00:16:24.505 --> 00:16:27.955 and up, but up until that point, you're, you're thinking like, okay, well who 00:16:27.955 --> 00:16:30.445 else is gonna move this thing forward? 00:16:31.075 --> 00:16:33.325 On one hand, we can't say things like 00:16:34.310 --> 00:16:36.320 Wix and Squarespace and all these other 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:36.980 platforms, 00:16:36.980 --> 00:16:39.410 Webflow are eating WordPress' lunch 00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:41.360 and be upset about that, but then on 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:43.010 the other hand, do nothing about it. 00:16:43.280 --> 00:16:43.640 Right. 00:16:43.640 --> 00:16:48.020 And then just like drill into a more, you know, developer focused, 00:16:48.290 --> 00:16:49.370 you know, sort of mindset. 00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:49.490 Like, 00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:50.570 oh, we don't need all these tools. 00:16:50.570 --> 00:16:50.810 We, I 00:16:50.810 --> 00:16:52.280 mean, God, you and I heard this when. 00:16:52.875 --> 00:16:56.055 Same thing when like you saw a theme forest or you saw page builders. 00:16:56.055 --> 00:16:57.135 You're like, nobody wants 00:16:57.135 --> 00:16:57.735 this stuff. 00:16:57.975 --> 00:16:59.415 This is all done wrong. 00:16:59.595 --> 00:17:01.245 This is not how you build a website. 00:17:01.335 --> 00:17:03.195 and then literally it's how you build a 00:17:03.195 --> 00:17:03.675 website, 00:17:04.948 --> 00:17:05.578 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I, yeah. 00:17:05.968 --> 00:17:07.438 Yeah, that's a great analogy. 00:17:07.468 --> 00:17:11.338 'cause I actually see AI as comparable to theme builders like Beaver Builder 00:17:11.338 --> 00:17:12.838 Elementor, because it. 00:17:13.188 --> 00:17:16.308 Immensely changed our workflows, but in some ways it made us more 00:17:16.308 --> 00:17:20.388 valuable as developers, like at the same time, because anytime end 00:17:20.388 --> 00:17:22.158 users get confused, I see dollar 00:17:22.158 --> 00:17:27.228 signs, like, you know, like, and you know, and AI is just a tool 00:17:27.378 --> 00:17:29.628 that we're gonna use and it's gonna change things. 00:17:29.778 --> 00:17:32.928 but a, we, you know, AI needs us more than we know. 00:17:32.988 --> 00:17:33.438 We need. 00:17:33.498 --> 00:17:35.178 AI needs us more than we need ai. 00:17:35.208 --> 00:17:37.878 And, we're, and so like, as long as you're willing to like. 00:17:38.193 --> 00:17:41.883 Figure it out as a business owner and, you know, get a little lucky, 00:17:41.883 --> 00:17:45.023 hopefully with the direction you go, you know, I think we'll be all right. 00:17:45.023 --> 00:17:45.298 You know. 00:17:46.010 --> 00:17:47.630 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: So, aside from the project that you're working 00:17:47.630 --> 00:17:49.260 on, well, let me take a step back. 00:17:49.560 --> 00:17:51.450 What's, what's the size of your agency? 00:17:51.450 --> 00:17:52.710 How many folks work with you? 00:17:52.710 --> 00:17:52.800 How 00:17:52.800 --> 00:17:53.520 many contractors? 00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:54.510 How do you structure the agency? 00:17:54.783 --> 00:17:56.733 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah, and that's another thing, like we've grown 00:17:57.063 --> 00:17:59.343 and I wanna say 2015, I had a CEO and 00:17:59.343 --> 00:17:59.433 I. 00:17:59.433 --> 00:18:02.823 had like, I dunno, five or six or eight full-time employees, something in there. 00:18:03.123 --> 00:18:05.313 Now I scaled back for a number of years here. 00:18:05.313 --> 00:18:06.273 I was like just me. 00:18:06.303 --> 00:18:08.913 Then it was me and one other developer, and then it was me and 00:18:08.913 --> 00:18:11.133 a SEO guy relatively recently. 00:18:11.133 --> 00:18:13.893 In January, I hired six part-timers. 00:18:14.013 --> 00:18:18.153 'cause I'm like, I'm getting, I don't wanna be the main 00:18:18.153 --> 00:18:20.163 point of contact every time. 00:18:20.223 --> 00:18:23.913 And so I hired a bunch of people to kind of just, so I hired a project manager who 00:18:23.913 --> 00:18:30.213 is just, I mean, I, I can't, I don't know if everybody's gonna get this lucky, but. 00:18:31.023 --> 00:18:36.123 To me, the project manager has the, the work that she's doing is changing my 00:18:36.123 --> 00:18:38.313 business, like in really profound ways. 00:18:38.713 --> 00:18:42.493 and, and I'm seeing able to see opportunities that I didn't see before. 00:18:42.523 --> 00:18:43.903 And this is just since January. 00:18:44.233 --> 00:18:46.223 And just, the talents and skills and 00:18:46.703 --> 00:18:48.533 just efficiencies and whatever. 00:18:49.031 --> 00:18:49.421 what was the 00:18:49.463 --> 00:18:49.943 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: project, man. 00:18:49.973 --> 00:18:52.283 I, I remember the project manager role at my agency 00:18:52.283 --> 00:18:56.903 being one of like the hardest, at the, at the stage of the business that we were at. 00:18:56.903 --> 00:19:00.533 Again, this is a different era of like building websites, but 00:19:01.493 --> 00:19:02.093 like that. 00:19:02.903 --> 00:19:04.313 Investment was hard 00:19:04.313 --> 00:19:05.543 because it was like, oh wait, wait. 00:19:05.543 --> 00:19:08.963 We should really be hiring another developer or another designer 00:19:08.963 --> 00:19:09.863 like, 'cause then we can do 00:19:09.863 --> 00:19:10.703 more projects. 00:19:10.913 --> 00:19:12.983 But then the bottleneck was always 00:19:13.253 --> 00:19:15.293 either myself or I ran the agency with my father. 00:19:15.293 --> 00:19:15.563 So 00:19:15.563 --> 00:19:17.093 it was either ahead time or my time. 00:19:17.273 --> 00:19:20.243 And what were we doing instead of selling, we were managing the projects. 00:19:20.693 --> 00:19:21.623 But it was one of those 00:19:21.623 --> 00:19:22.943 really difficult decisions 00:19:22.943 --> 00:19:25.403 like bring somebody on board that isn't 00:19:25.463 --> 00:19:26.933 immediately a billable. 00:19:28.298 --> 00:19:32.508 You know, a billable, role, more of like that management role, but wow, once you 00:19:32.508 --> 00:19:36.863 had the person in place and they were up to speed, it was just infinitely better. 00:19:37.266 --> 00:19:39.456 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Well, let me ask you, 'cause a few podcasts ago, 00:19:39.456 --> 00:19:43.666 you, you had, reminisced about when you brought on, so project manager's 00:19:43.666 --> 00:19:45.736 one thing, but you brought, said, you brought, it seemed like you said 00:19:45.736 --> 00:19:47.926 you brought on an account manager and 00:19:47.926 --> 00:19:49.666 that's really scary for me right now. 00:19:49.936 --> 00:19:50.986 Like, how did that work? 00:19:51.016 --> 00:19:52.486 You know, tell me a little bit about that. 00:19:52.618 --> 00:19:55.378 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: He was a, he was multifaceted, Dan, so he 00:19:55.378 --> 00:19:59.838 was a project manager, but then he would also, you know, because we were 00:19:59.838 --> 00:20:00.678 a four five 00:20:00.678 --> 00:20:06.108 person shop and servicing mostly small businesses at the time, you know, so 00:20:06.108 --> 00:20:09.438 your margins were very thin as, you know, with like payroll and all this stuff. 00:20:09.808 --> 00:20:11.008 so then e eventually 00:20:11.008 --> 00:20:12.058 what as. 00:20:12.403 --> 00:20:15.373 He got better in, in the role and we understood the projects 00:20:15.373 --> 00:20:17.263 that we were, we were delivering. 00:20:17.633 --> 00:20:20.633 he would also go back to the customer and say like, Hey, it's 00:20:20.633 --> 00:20:22.823 been a year since we've chatted. 00:20:23.103 --> 00:20:25.263 you're on our monthly maintenance 00:20:25.263 --> 00:20:26.313 and, and, support plan. 00:20:26.313 --> 00:20:26.913 Like, What else 00:20:26.913 --> 00:20:27.873 can we do for you? 00:20:27.873 --> 00:20:28.143 Right. 00:20:28.143 --> 00:20:30.333 So it was just like a very incremental thing. 00:20:31.433 --> 00:20:31.793 you know, but 00:20:31.793 --> 00:20:35.783 it's a, it's a utility person and it's very hard to find, It's very hard to 00:20:35.783 --> 00:20:37.253 find that role in, I guess, any business 00:20:37.253 --> 00:20:41.763 where you can also like think as a founder, and understand, you know, 00:20:41.793 --> 00:20:45.093 what the client needs at the same time, and then get this technology thing. 00:20:45.183 --> 00:20:47.463 I mean, you don't have to be deep in any of it, but you just have 00:20:47.463 --> 00:20:50.373 to understand that world and that what makes, that's what makes 00:20:50.373 --> 00:20:52.923 a great project manager or slash 00:20:53.103 --> 00:20:53.673 ae. 00:20:54.216 --> 00:20:54.336 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I. 00:20:54.336 --> 00:20:57.156 think too, like all this, you know, when you're running a business, every 00:20:57.156 --> 00:20:58.656 hire should point to more money. 00:20:58.776 --> 00:20:59.676 Like at the end of the day, 00:20:59.706 --> 00:21:03.506 like in theory, one thing that was mind blowing when I hired my project manager, 00:21:03.506 --> 00:21:07.496 so I was doing the work and I would do so much, so many favor, not favors, 00:21:07.496 --> 00:21:08.726 but yeah, you're an existing customer. 00:21:08.726 --> 00:21:08.906 Sure. 00:21:08.906 --> 00:21:09.386 I'll just do that. 00:21:09.386 --> 00:21:10.676 I'll take me five, 10 minutes. 00:21:11.066 --> 00:21:12.356 No, you know, I wouldn't charge. 00:21:12.596 --> 00:21:16.196 Once the, the project manager came on, she's like, so they want this work? 00:21:16.196 --> 00:21:17.246 What do you want a bill for it? 00:21:17.246 --> 00:21:17.966 I was like, what? 00:21:18.341 --> 00:21:19.091 Oh crap. 00:21:19.271 --> 00:21:19.451 And 00:21:19.451 --> 00:21:22.151 so like, she's basically paying for herself, but just 00:21:22.151 --> 00:21:23.921 by asking that question continually, 00:21:24.473 --> 00:21:25.883 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: That's an under that, that's something 00:21:25.883 --> 00:21:26.933 that goes under the radar. 00:21:26.993 --> 00:21:30.123 And I tell this to a lot of, You know, freelancer friends that 00:21:30.123 --> 00:21:31.113 have reached out and they're like, 00:21:31.113 --> 00:21:32.913 Hey, just like struggling to get this business. 00:21:32.913 --> 00:21:34.473 And it's like, well, how many websites 00:21:34.473 --> 00:21:36.333 have you, you know, launched for clients 00:21:36.333 --> 00:21:38.973 and whatever it is, 5, 15, 50. 00:21:39.663 --> 00:21:42.123 You simply just have to ask, right? 00:21:42.123 --> 00:21:43.803 Because you ship them and then You 00:21:43.803 --> 00:21:45.513 think, okay, they're shipped. 00:21:45.783 --> 00:21:47.733 Now I I need to go find a new one. 00:21:47.733 --> 00:21:49.833 And it's like, well, you don't have to. 00:21:49.983 --> 00:21:50.283 You could. 00:21:50.421 --> 00:21:50.661 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: can 00:21:51.123 --> 00:21:53.253 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Make sure that they're paying you in some consult 00:21:53.433 --> 00:21:57.572 consultive, fee, whether you're actually maintaining their site or you've 00:21:57.572 --> 00:22:00.693 got them locked in for a few hours a month to just talk about their sites. 00:22:00.993 --> 00:22:04.203 You should be having those conversations because the worst thing 00:22:04.562 --> 00:22:06.473 not to go on a soapbox, ran because 00:22:06.473 --> 00:22:07.933 this is, this is your interview. 00:22:08.123 --> 00:22:11.633 but the, but The worst things that can happen to an agency is when. 00:22:12.158 --> 00:22:13.928 That customer. 00:22:13.953 --> 00:22:17.438 If, if they're paying you monthly and you are not talking to them and you're 00:22:17.438 --> 00:22:18.998 not reaching out, that's the worst thing. 00:22:19.358 --> 00:22:22.268 Because if they're running into an issue and they're not telling you about it, 00:22:22.808 --> 00:22:25.148 the worst thing is, is like they start asking somebody else, like, 00:22:25.148 --> 00:22:27.188 Hey, this guy, we've, we've been paying Matt a hundred bucks a month, 00:22:27.188 --> 00:22:28.718 200 bucks a month, whatever it is. 00:22:29.348 --> 00:22:30.998 And I have this freaking problem. 00:22:30.998 --> 00:22:33.218 He's never asking me, I don't know how to talk to him. 00:22:33.218 --> 00:22:34.298 I don't know how to explain it. 00:22:34.358 --> 00:22:37.148 And then they go and they find somebody else, and then suddenly you get the, 00:22:37.268 --> 00:22:39.608 the phone call or the email like, Hey, we're canceling the account. 00:22:39.698 --> 00:22:40.448 And you're like, whoa, whoa. 00:22:40.448 --> 00:22:40.898 What happened? 00:22:40.898 --> 00:22:41.798 I thought everything was good. 00:22:41.821 --> 00:22:42.111 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: yeah. 00:22:42.416 --> 00:22:42.566 Well 00:22:42.566 --> 00:22:43.136 there's there. 00:22:43.226 --> 00:22:43.406 Yeah. 00:22:43.886 --> 00:22:47.006 As soon as they talk to someone else, you can almost guarantee that person's 00:22:47.006 --> 00:22:48.896 gonna say, oh, that's way too much. 00:22:49.028 --> 00:22:49.598 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: correct, 00:22:50.096 --> 00:22:50.846 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: No matter what. 00:22:50.996 --> 00:22:52.166 Doesn't matter what it was. 00:22:52.988 --> 00:22:53.498 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: correct. 00:22:53.798 --> 00:22:54.248 And you know, 00:22:54.248 --> 00:22:55.538 that's an interesting thing because I 00:22:55.538 --> 00:22:55.958 think. 00:22:55.981 --> 00:22:56.071 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I think 00:22:57.428 --> 00:22:58.148 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: We, 00:22:58.688 --> 00:22:58.838 and 00:22:58.838 --> 00:23:01.268 I'm not in the agency game, but I, I talk to people all the time 00:23:01.268 --> 00:23:06.458 about it, but w we have this unfair, we're in this unfair position where, 00:23:06.818 --> 00:23:09.218 just like you said earlier, Squarespace user says, ah, wasn't 00:23:09.218 --> 00:23:10.538 it only 300 bucks to do this? 00:23:11.378 --> 00:23:15.548 I think when you think of yourself as a, as a consumer, and you have 00:23:15.548 --> 00:23:19.448 to hire a plumber, a landscaper, a contractor, whatever it is. 00:23:20.048 --> 00:23:21.128 Y you're 00:23:21.128 --> 00:23:24.338 exposed to that more often, like the customer's exposed to that. 00:23:24.338 --> 00:23:24.758 Like, 00:23:24.848 --> 00:23:27.698 I gotta find somebody local to come do this thing for me. 00:23:28.028 --> 00:23:31.268 And what we, we learn the lesson of, you get what you pay for a 00:23:31.268 --> 00:23:33.518 lot faster in the real world. 00:23:34.148 --> 00:23:36.998 Where in the web world, it's only like, you know, if you're a company, 00:23:36.998 --> 00:23:41.108 it's like every maybe three, five years, you're thinking critically of, 00:23:41.408 --> 00:23:41.678 okay, 00:23:41.678 --> 00:23:43.148 we gotta redo this website. 00:23:43.793 --> 00:23:47.393 So you're not exposed to those lessons of you get what you pay for. 00:23:47.393 --> 00:23:48.833 You just go, we need to do this thing. 00:23:48.833 --> 00:23:49.823 It's a task. 00:23:49.971 --> 00:23:50.391 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Mm-hmm. 00:23:50.513 --> 00:23:51.983 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Just find the cheapest bid. 00:23:52.331 --> 00:23:52.661 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah. 00:23:52.973 --> 00:23:54.593 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Am I crazy about thinking of it like that? 00:23:54.593 --> 00:23:56.723 Like we don't, we just don't get those reps in with 00:23:56.723 --> 00:23:57.353 our customers 00:23:57.466 --> 00:23:57.746 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah. 00:23:58.166 --> 00:23:58.586 But I, 00:23:58.746 --> 00:23:58.866 I, 00:23:58.866 --> 00:24:02.471 think there are some customers that'll never come around to paying. 00:24:02.561 --> 00:24:02.801 Like, 00:24:02.801 --> 00:24:03.941 that's, that's a fact. 00:24:03.941 --> 00:24:07.361 But the ones that learn the lesson, they touch the stove, they learn it, 00:24:07.901 --> 00:24:10.181 they usually make really good long term customers. 00:24:10.181 --> 00:24:13.741 I find, also like there was a, this is just the more examples of how AI will 00:24:13.741 --> 00:24:17.501 not be helpful and how we will still continue to exist, a few years back. 00:24:17.581 --> 00:24:20.761 There's a, a, a, deodorant company called Lumi Deodorant. 00:24:21.151 --> 00:24:26.101 and they have ads on TV now and stuff, but like there's, they're, operations 00:24:26.101 --> 00:24:30.271 officer, CMO came to me, just called Outta the Blue 'cause I do WordPress. 00:24:30.271 --> 00:24:33.421 And they were like, you know, locally local kind of. 00:24:33.421 --> 00:24:34.281 And so they found me. 00:24:34.281 --> 00:24:36.501 They called and like I started helping them. 00:24:36.561 --> 00:24:38.781 This is like just an example of like, again, how. 00:24:39.336 --> 00:24:41.016 We're gonna have jobs if we can adapt. 00:24:41.016 --> 00:24:44.946 And like, so I just started, they're like, Hey, we need to like import some users. 00:24:44.946 --> 00:24:45.906 I was like, okay, whatever. 00:24:45.906 --> 00:24:50.126 They had WooCommerce and bottom line is like, it ended up being, they 00:24:50.126 --> 00:24:54.746 were, it turns out they were just like having way too many website sales. 00:24:54.896 --> 00:24:55.496 Like that 00:24:55.496 --> 00:24:56.306 was their problem. 00:24:57.146 --> 00:25:02.206 That that and the CEO came to me and she's like, should we close the site down? 00:25:02.206 --> 00:25:05.866 Like it's just a huge headache and failure and I'm looking at it. 00:25:06.151 --> 00:25:07.591 Like, and she didn't have the purview. 00:25:07.591 --> 00:25:12.091 I, I mean, she did business wise, but like, I'm looking at this like, you have 00:25:12.091 --> 00:25:15.091 no idea how unique your situation is. 00:25:15.331 --> 00:25:20.631 Like, but anyway, bottom line is like AI would've never, they probably wouldn't. 00:25:20.691 --> 00:25:25.661 Right now, they sold for who knows how much to, the, some huge company, 00:25:25.661 --> 00:25:28.151 you know, now they've been bought and sold a couple at least once. 00:25:28.401 --> 00:25:31.131 but like, huge payout for them at the end of the day. 00:25:31.131 --> 00:25:31.611 But like. 00:25:32.091 --> 00:25:33.411 AI could not have helped them. 00:25:33.711 --> 00:25:37.161 You know, like, and I don't think a big agency would've been helpful either. 00:25:37.161 --> 00:25:41.331 Like, it was just so happened that I was small enough with a nut of experience. 00:25:41.601 --> 00:25:44.991 'cause like I came in at, I wanna say it was like, for two grand a month, I think 00:25:44.991 --> 00:25:46.671 I can help you for the next six months. 00:25:46.671 --> 00:25:48.831 And I was way off by that, by the way. 00:25:48.831 --> 00:25:51.801 But like a big agency, two grand is not gonna get you in the door, 00:25:52.731 --> 00:25:52.881 you 00:25:52.881 --> 00:25:53.121 know? 00:25:53.121 --> 00:25:54.411 And so it ended up being, I ended up. 00:25:54.771 --> 00:25:57.561 Coming on as CTO after a while and was just like, we're gonna re, we 00:25:57.561 --> 00:25:58.881 need to rethink this whole thing. 00:25:59.221 --> 00:26:05.221 and we ended up moving to the Shopify, but like, I think, I think there's green, you 00:26:05.221 --> 00:26:07.081 know, as green pastures as there ever has 00:26:07.081 --> 00:26:08.821 been in this crazy world, 00:26:09.068 --> 00:26:09.793 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, sure. 00:26:10.693 --> 00:26:15.443 another lesson that I, I find interesting that I think, at least from my experience, 00:26:15.493 --> 00:26:18.763 interested to hear your experience, but I think a lot of agencies after 00:26:18.763 --> 00:26:21.553 X amount of years, and, and this is something that evolves, like I think 00:26:21.553 --> 00:26:24.643 in the early days you're learning this every month and then it stretches to 00:26:24.643 --> 00:26:27.103 every six months and then every year, then every other year, and then every 00:26:27.103 --> 00:26:28.333 five years and maybe every 10 years. 00:26:28.543 --> 00:26:32.803 But you start to learn like a process of what you can deliver. 00:26:33.108 --> 00:26:33.378 Right. 00:26:33.438 --> 00:26:33.918 Earlier when 00:26:33.918 --> 00:26:37.008 we started the show, you said you focus on a lot of small business and nonprofits. 00:26:37.368 --> 00:26:40.768 I love the nonprofit, vertical because even that is huge, 00:26:40.768 --> 00:26:43.048 like nonprofits for who, like what are they serving? 00:26:43.048 --> 00:26:43.858 Like is it donations? 00:26:43.858 --> 00:26:44.668 Like what's it look like? 00:26:45.028 --> 00:26:48.868 So I'm curious if you can paint the picture of, what your process looks 00:26:48.868 --> 00:26:51.088 like when you're selling to a customer. 00:26:51.148 --> 00:26:51.388 Is it. 00:26:51.521 --> 00:26:51.671 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: it 00:26:52.253 --> 00:26:54.653 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: A, b and c pick this mis Mrs. 00:26:54.653 --> 00:26:55.073 Or Mr. 00:26:55.073 --> 00:26:57.023 Customer, like pick one of these choices. 00:26:57.293 --> 00:27:00.713 Do you have a wheelhouse where you say, Hey, we're really good 00:27:00.773 --> 00:27:04.013 at nonprofit donation websites, but if you wanted us to build 00:27:04.013 --> 00:27:05.393 a membership 00:27:05.393 --> 00:27:06.263 site, we don't do that. 00:27:06.263 --> 00:27:07.763 Like, that's not in our wheelhouse. 00:27:08.003 --> 00:27:13.133 How do you like, refine and and fine tune your your machine at the agency? 00:27:13.691 --> 00:27:15.881 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: machine is way overstating what it is. 00:27:15.931 --> 00:27:18.541 it's really me taking, so I always, I always try to get 00:27:18.541 --> 00:27:19.201 on the phone with people. 00:27:19.201 --> 00:27:20.641 First of all, it starts with an email. 00:27:20.641 --> 00:27:20.671 I. 00:27:21.166 --> 00:27:23.296 Usually, our, our main marketing channel is SEO. 00:27:23.716 --> 00:27:25.186 And so, and it has been forever. 00:27:25.276 --> 00:27:27.436 And so we get all our leads from SEO pretty much. 00:27:27.796 --> 00:27:31.696 and so an email comes in, sometimes they'll call, and I try, at this point I 00:27:31.696 --> 00:27:36.196 get so much spam email and phone that I kind of ha I let it go to voicemail first, 00:27:36.196 --> 00:27:40.576 kind of, you know, or let the ai, I use an AI on my Android phone to screen them. 00:27:40.606 --> 00:27:40.816 That's 00:27:40.816 --> 00:27:41.536 another example. 00:27:41.616 --> 00:27:42.636 that's a good use of ai, 00:27:43.206 --> 00:27:45.376 like, and how I use it in my daily workflow. 00:27:45.376 --> 00:27:47.956 But, You know, I, I get the package thing. 00:27:48.036 --> 00:27:51.936 we used to sell packages and we've been testing it out with 00:27:51.936 --> 00:27:56.106 SEO, but what we do now is like, really, this is, I don't know. 00:27:56.166 --> 00:27:57.486 I don't know how other people do it really. 00:27:57.486 --> 00:28:00.426 Like, for me it's, it's totally arbitrary. 00:28:00.516 --> 00:28:02.736 Like really at the end of the day, I'm trying to get a sense 00:28:02.736 --> 00:28:07.056 through conversations like how big of a project are we talking? 00:28:07.086 --> 00:28:10.356 And part of that is the technology and the, you know, the requirements. 00:28:10.356 --> 00:28:13.026 But the other part is like, how many layers of bureaucracy 00:28:13.026 --> 00:28:13.986 do we have to fight through to 00:28:13.986 --> 00:28:14.436 approve? 00:28:14.781 --> 00:28:19.191 Some text, you know, how, how, how easy are you to converse with, 00:28:19.401 --> 00:28:23.661 like, are you putting up a fight on everything I say, or are you like, ah, 00:28:23.691 --> 00:28:25.221 Toby, that's brilliant, let's do it. 00:28:25.221 --> 00:28:29.571 You know, like to me tho there are costs that I add arbitrarily based on 00:28:29.571 --> 00:28:34.281 my feeling about, so like, I was talking to someone the other day, this is like a 00:28:34.281 --> 00:28:37.271 week ago, and, I got a sense right away. 00:28:37.301 --> 00:28:39.641 And so I was like, yeah, usually our budgets are let's say five 00:28:39.641 --> 00:28:40.661 to 10 grand, whatever I told 'em. 00:28:40.661 --> 00:28:43.121 Very small, non-profit, for-profit, but they're like 00:28:43.121 --> 00:28:44.621 kind of a startup locally here. 00:28:44.981 --> 00:28:47.891 It was clear right away that that was off the table. 00:28:48.311 --> 00:28:52.691 And so I was like, well, I also do this other thing that is actually really cool 00:28:52.691 --> 00:28:54.551 and it's way cheaper, but it's different. 00:28:54.551 --> 00:28:56.621 And the, the gist of it is I'm gonna sit down with you. 00:28:56.671 --> 00:29:00.451 For five or six hours total over a few weeks and we're gonna build your site 00:29:00.451 --> 00:29:05.131 together and you control how expensive it is because there are lots of shortcuts 00:29:05.131 --> 00:29:07.071 we can take, a lot in that process. 00:29:07.071 --> 00:29:08.991 And they, they did that and I actually met with them yesterday. 00:29:08.991 --> 00:29:10.011 It was fantastic. 00:29:10.011 --> 00:29:10.191 And 00:29:10.191 --> 00:29:15.321 like, so me as like a small business owner, I have that. 00:29:15.651 --> 00:29:17.061 Flexibility to kind of like 00:29:17.271 --> 00:29:17.691 do that. 00:29:17.691 --> 00:29:21.441 And I'm always looking, I'm desperate to close deals 00:29:21.681 --> 00:29:22.611 all the time, and I 00:29:22.611 --> 00:29:23.361 always have been. 00:29:23.631 --> 00:29:26.001 And this is like a fear of dying. 00:29:26.061 --> 00:29:26.901 This is like what 00:29:26.958 --> 00:29:28.578 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I go into that because I, I think a 00:29:28.578 --> 00:29:32.088 lot of people don't realize that, you know, everyone online, we're all 00:29:32.088 --> 00:29:34.698 fighting for survival in this game. 00:29:34.698 --> 00:29:36.738 Like, even if you see somebody with 00:29:36.738 --> 00:29:40.588 a seven figure, eight figure agency run rate, like, yeah, 00:29:40.588 --> 00:29:42.538 agency life is fun and it 00:29:42.538 --> 00:29:43.438 can be very 00:29:43.438 --> 00:29:46.618 profitable, but it's also like one paycheck away from death. 00:29:46.888 --> 00:29:47.548 So explain 00:29:48.393 --> 00:29:48.683 What 00:29:48.688 --> 00:29:50.098 What you're, what that means to you. 00:29:50.176 --> 00:29:52.726 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: mean, I don't know if this was like my upbringing, 00:29:52.726 --> 00:29:55.336 I grew up poor or whatever, but like we all kind of grew up poor. 00:29:55.906 --> 00:29:58.036 I think if you talk to people, we all grew up poor. 00:29:58.363 --> 00:29:58.693 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah. 00:29:58.693 --> 00:29:59.053 Yeah. 00:29:59.156 --> 00:30:02.006 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: but like I am scared to death that I'm not gonna be 00:30:02.006 --> 00:30:06.056 able to pay the mortgage next month, even though I've paid it every month for the 00:30:06.056 --> 00:30:09.956 last 472 months without major issues, you 00:30:09.956 --> 00:30:12.206 know, like, So like, here's an example. 00:30:12.206 --> 00:30:15.716 Like if you came to me and you were like very reasonable and calm and 00:30:15.716 --> 00:30:20.366 nice and kind, you're, and you, you're like, I have X amount of dollars. 00:30:20.366 --> 00:30:21.626 We might be able to make a deal. 00:30:22.136 --> 00:30:24.476 You know, like that's how desperate I am. 00:30:24.806 --> 00:30:26.666 I'm not gonna jam you into our process. 00:30:27.056 --> 00:30:30.866 you know, but like anything, if you come in, in a way that rubs me the wrong 00:30:30.866 --> 00:30:32.696 way, well maybe we can't make a deal, 00:30:32.903 --> 00:30:33.173 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah. 00:30:33.233 --> 00:30:35.453 Or add another few zeros to the end of that, 00:30:35.631 --> 00:30:35.851 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yep. 00:30:36.521 --> 00:30:40.231 There was one, person I was co-working with that she hired me to help her. 00:30:40.231 --> 00:30:43.351 She has a, just a brilliant idea for a startup and they, she's like, 00:30:43.351 --> 00:30:44.731 I really just need this website. 00:30:44.731 --> 00:30:48.841 And it was kind of like a membership thing, so you can kind of envision 00:30:48.841 --> 00:30:52.231 that where people pay for a membership and kind of like Upwork, 00:30:52.231 --> 00:30:53.311 but for a different vertical. 00:30:53.641 --> 00:30:55.021 and I was like, yeah, I think I can do that. 00:30:55.021 --> 00:30:56.821 And I was doing this thing where we would kind of meet up. 00:30:56.821 --> 00:30:58.861 I would do it just hourly, you know? 00:30:58.861 --> 00:31:00.781 So she was getting like a great deal. 00:31:00.811 --> 00:31:00.931 I 00:31:00.931 --> 00:31:02.071 wasn't doing a lot of scoping. 00:31:02.071 --> 00:31:02.971 We were meeting in person. 00:31:02.971 --> 00:31:04.001 I was scoping, I. 00:31:04.661 --> 00:31:08.621 Her business partner was like, what is this charge? 00:31:09.671 --> 00:31:12.641 And so after that, her costs went skyrocketed. 00:31:12.966 --> 00:31:14.861 I, I was like, okay, I can't meet with you anymore. 00:31:14.861 --> 00:31:16.031 We're gonna need to scope stuff out. 00:31:16.031 --> 00:31:16.121 We're 00:31:16.358 --> 00:31:17.088 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:31:17.411 --> 00:31:17.771 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: and 00:31:18.041 --> 00:31:18.161 I, 00:31:18.161 --> 00:31:19.931 ended up making more money, did less work. 00:31:19.961 --> 00:31:22.271 I made more money for less work in that scenario. 00:31:22.518 --> 00:31:22.808 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah. 00:31:23.141 --> 00:31:25.091 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: And she, I don't know if she was happy or not as 00:31:25.091 --> 00:31:26.621 happy, but I don't know that it mattered. 00:31:26.651 --> 00:31:27.641 Maybe it was better, I don't know. 00:31:27.641 --> 00:31:27.911 But yeah, 00:31:28.238 --> 00:31:28.448 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah, 00:31:28.448 --> 00:31:31.798 I mean it's, you have those conversations and you know, I think 00:31:33.238 --> 00:31:36.328 I've always tried, you know, say the phrase like blue collar digital 00:31:36.388 --> 00:31:37.918 worker, where 00:31:38.938 --> 00:31:41.788 like in your example, like, you're nice, I'm nice. 00:31:42.178 --> 00:31:45.688 Here's the, like, it's all about like, what, what are those expectations? 00:31:45.688 --> 00:31:47.338 What are those requirements that you need 00:31:47.338 --> 00:31:47.758 from me? 00:31:48.238 --> 00:31:48.478 If 00:31:48.478 --> 00:31:50.938 you are not gonna beat me up and call 00:31:50.938 --> 00:31:52.528 me on a Saturday afternoon 00:31:52.528 --> 00:31:55.258 or in the middle of the night about, you know, something that you told 00:31:55.258 --> 00:31:58.438 me you were just experimenting with, you know, it's the, 00:31:58.888 --> 00:32:02.938 the worst customers from back in the day was this, like, I have no budget. 00:32:03.793 --> 00:32:05.293 you know, I want it now. 00:32:05.563 --> 00:32:06.193 And, 00:32:06.223 --> 00:32:07.633 you know, sometimes he'd be like, okay, okay. 00:32:07.633 --> 00:32:09.523 They, They, would like scale it back and be like, all right, you 00:32:09.523 --> 00:32:12.223 know, we're not gonna be making, you know, any money, I promise, like, 00:32:12.223 --> 00:32:13.033 you know, don't do all this thing. 00:32:13.033 --> 00:32:15.823 And then they start like going gangbusters with an e-commerce store. 00:32:15.823 --> 00:32:19.693 Like I remember vividly, remember Saturday, a particular customer 00:32:19.693 --> 00:32:21.193 from way back who did all the 00:32:21.193 --> 00:32:21.403 same. 00:32:21.403 --> 00:32:22.723 He was hard-nosed. 00:32:23.203 --> 00:32:24.343 We got along. 00:32:24.783 --> 00:32:27.573 you know, he worked me with the budget and then my thing was like, 00:32:27.573 --> 00:32:30.573 okay, you can work me on the budget, but I'm gonna scale back support. 00:32:30.573 --> 00:32:33.003 I'm gonna scale back feature set we're gonna use, 00:32:33.273 --> 00:32:34.593 you know, I didn't tell him, but we're gonna 00:32:34.593 --> 00:32:35.463 use these plugins. 00:32:35.463 --> 00:32:37.923 I mean, I would say like, we've got these repeatable code that we could use. 00:32:37.923 --> 00:32:38.103 You know, I'm 00:32:38.103 --> 00:32:39.693 not, you know, this is way back in the day. 00:32:39.753 --> 00:32:40.023 And 00:32:40.023 --> 00:32:41.163 that then like Saturday 00:32:41.163 --> 00:32:42.213 would come and he had like 00:32:42.273 --> 00:32:42.543 this, 00:32:42.543 --> 00:32:45.453 he was somewhere, I forget, with like in-person event and he was selling 00:32:45.453 --> 00:32:46.953 tickets to all these things and he was. 00:32:47.013 --> 00:32:48.963 Freaking out that his website was down. 00:32:49.293 --> 00:32:50.073 And I'm like, I 00:32:50.073 --> 00:32:51.993 remember you telling me 00:32:52.953 --> 00:32:54.273 that this wasn't gonna be a 00:32:54.273 --> 00:32:54.633 thing. 00:32:54.633 --> 00:32:56.283 Like you weren't gonna be making money. 00:32:56.283 --> 00:32:57.363 Well, you weren't gonna be, you didn't 00:32:57.363 --> 00:33:01.383 require, like, you didn't wanna pay the 300 bucks a month for hosting or whatever 00:33:01.383 --> 00:33:05.523 it was for a dedicated server back then you told me you didn't need this. 00:33:06.483 --> 00:33:07.773 You know, and here we are. 00:33:08.193 --> 00:33:09.063 you just gotta have those 00:33:09.461 --> 00:33:11.981 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: yeah, in the common, the common red, red, you 00:33:11.981 --> 00:33:15.851 know, we have red flags that we develop over, like, as these calls come in and 00:33:15.851 --> 00:33:18.791 emails and what the most common, immediate red flag is, this 00:33:18.791 --> 00:33:20.201 is gonna be quick and easy. 00:33:21.161 --> 00:33:22.841 Like when they're like, I need something done. 00:33:23.051 --> 00:33:23.981 It's really easy. 00:33:24.161 --> 00:33:26.711 And I'm always like, if it was easy, you wouldn't be calling me. 00:33:26.738 --> 00:33:27.788 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yes, 00:33:27.821 --> 00:33:29.561 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: was quick, it'd be done. 00:33:29.801 --> 00:33:31.151 So why are we talking? 00:33:31.178 --> 00:33:31.538 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yes. 00:33:31.538 --> 00:33:33.038 That's like sales 1 0 1. 00:33:33.038 --> 00:33:34.808 I mean, I, I can start with that. 00:33:34.808 --> 00:33:36.398 You know, I can catch myself, get 00:33:36.398 --> 00:33:38.828 like I'm talking to a contract about building like, a deck and 00:33:38.828 --> 00:33:39.728 I'm like, look, this should just be 00:33:40.071 --> 00:33:41.501 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: right, right. 00:33:42.398 --> 00:33:43.178 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: as if I know how 00:33:43.178 --> 00:33:45.488 to pull out a nail gun and start building myself a 00:33:45.746 --> 00:33:46.496 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: exactly. 00:33:46.556 --> 00:33:49.096 Here's another example of, it can pay to be nice like 00:33:49.126 --> 00:33:52.425 to small businesses, but even big ones, but like, I had someone 00:33:52.425 --> 00:33:54.106 I brought on as a developer. 00:33:54.195 --> 00:33:55.995 I, I like, they're like really struggling. 00:33:55.995 --> 00:33:58.396 They're like a local contractor. 00:33:58.515 --> 00:34:00.615 They have, you know, a business that's been going for years, but 00:34:00.615 --> 00:34:03.706 they needed help with their website and like, I really helped 'em. 00:34:03.765 --> 00:34:07.575 I like made it way better and for a very reasonable rate. 00:34:07.575 --> 00:34:11.595 And then we were hosting them and then I, they started calling me on weekends 00:34:11.595 --> 00:34:13.185 and I was just like, what is going on? 00:34:13.185 --> 00:34:14.506 And like, they would break it. 00:34:14.536 --> 00:34:17.595 Anyway, the, the bottom line is, They call, they, they emailed and 00:34:17.595 --> 00:34:20.725 called, this is just like a month or so ago, and they're like, we're 00:34:20.725 --> 00:34:22.105 moving to someone else for hosting. 00:34:22.255 --> 00:34:28.375 Like, and, and we want a refund on the prorated annual contract that they signed. 00:34:29.035 --> 00:34:32.935 And if they had been nice throughout, I probably would've given the refund. 00:34:33.055 --> 00:34:33.235 Like 00:34:33.235 --> 00:34:34.705 if they had been really cool and nice. 00:34:34.855 --> 00:34:37.435 I, I mean, that's my inclination to be like, oh yeah, sure. 00:34:37.435 --> 00:34:38.245 You know, stuff happens. 00:34:38.245 --> 00:34:41.125 But since they were such jerks and they continued to be jerks, even 00:34:41.125 --> 00:34:44.215 at the end, like when demanding the refund, like it was, it was how they 00:34:44.215 --> 00:34:46.045 demanded it more than that they demanded 00:34:46.555 --> 00:34:49.465 and like, just like, no, you're under contract. 00:34:49.465 --> 00:34:51.505 I cannot, I we do not grant refunds 00:34:51.685 --> 00:34:53.095 when you sign an, you know, that was my 00:34:53.095 --> 00:34:54.595 policy, that's my policies. 00:34:54.835 --> 00:34:55.105 I gave, 00:34:55.105 --> 00:34:56.485 just gave them the policy, you know. 00:34:56.497 --> 00:34:56.857 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah. 00:34:57.607 --> 00:34:57.937 Yeah. 00:34:57.937 --> 00:35:01.257 It's, yeah, and being nice doesn't mean you get, you know. 00:35:01.842 --> 00:35:06.972 Stepped on, or, you know, you're, you're, making less money because the offset is 00:35:07.722 --> 00:35:08.052 less 00:35:08.052 --> 00:35:10.002 stress is the way that I see it. 00:35:10.032 --> 00:35:10.332 Right. 00:35:10.332 --> 00:35:15.072 You want to operate your business with as least stressed as possible, making 00:35:15.072 --> 00:35:16.632 the most amount of money you can. 00:35:16.692 --> 00:35:18.462 Like, it's a simple formula. 00:35:18.612 --> 00:35:19.752 it's just, you know, it's 00:35:19.782 --> 00:35:20.142 hard. 00:35:20.412 --> 00:35:21.102 It's hard Yes. 00:35:21.285 --> 00:35:22.965 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I had sales describe to me you wanna 00:35:22.965 --> 00:35:25.905 push them on price and to the point that they're uncomfortable, Right. 00:35:26.775 --> 00:35:27.495 Yeah. 00:35:27.852 --> 00:35:28.152 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah. 00:35:28.842 --> 00:35:29.562 Efficiencies on 00:35:29.562 --> 00:35:30.642 the back end of the house. 00:35:30.702 --> 00:35:32.322 we, we talked about like having the 00:35:32.322 --> 00:35:34.742 conversations, the pre-sales into the sales, into the 00:35:34.742 --> 00:35:35.762 delivery process. 00:35:36.152 --> 00:35:37.622 Do you have a stack? 00:35:37.622 --> 00:35:41.402 You always use a theme and a set of plugins you use on every single 00:35:41.402 --> 00:35:45.902 project that lessens the amount of time spent, but then improves those 00:35:45.992 --> 00:35:48.022 gaps of, or that that profitability. 00:35:48.195 --> 00:35:49.450 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah, I was thinking about this today. 00:35:49.450 --> 00:35:52.840 We've been very, so we use Beaver Builder wherever possible. 00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:55.270 you know, beaver Builders, if you don't know his competitor to, I 00:35:55.270 --> 00:35:58.000 know you know Matt, but it's a competitor to Elementor in Baker, 00:35:58.030 --> 00:36:00.040 WP Bakery and that sort of thing. 00:36:00.350 --> 00:36:02.720 Astra would be a competitor to Beaver Builder in theory. 00:36:02.780 --> 00:36:02.840 I. 00:36:03.740 --> 00:36:07.460 So I did a number of tests a handful of years ago, and I have a blog post. 00:36:07.460 --> 00:36:09.140 It's like my longest blog post I ever written. 00:36:09.140 --> 00:36:13.670 It was a bunch of ab tests using Beaver verse, Elementor verse Bakery and verse 00:36:13.670 --> 00:36:19.340 Core and Beaver builder performed the fastest from a speed test perspective in 00:36:19.340 --> 00:36:26.090 that very, you know, non-scientific study, like somewhat scientific study that I ran. 00:36:26.390 --> 00:36:28.970 so we started using BeaverBuilder then and we've just continued, we 00:36:28.970 --> 00:36:31.670 have some, we, we would always start with Beaver Builder for building it. 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.460 If we have a, a customer, we do have Elementor sites that we 00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:37.500 manage, that we've onboarded, but, if we were to rebuild them, we 00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:39.030 would definitely switch to Beaver. 00:36:39.240 --> 00:36:42.270 we generally don't use Git or anything like that because, 00:36:42.350 --> 00:36:44.540 Cowboy coding is too negative. 00:36:44.630 --> 00:36:47.030 Like, not quite it, but you know, with WordPress it's like, what are 00:36:47.030 --> 00:36:50.150 you gonna put and get, you know, everything's like, you could store 00:36:50.150 --> 00:36:53.270 the database and gi I suppose, but you already have backups of that. 00:36:53.270 --> 00:36:55.010 So we use Managed wp. 00:36:55.060 --> 00:36:58.420 so first of all, I, I tried like every backup solution I could get. 00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:02.770 I wanted like a really, robust, like a, a backup solution that would work every 00:37:02.770 --> 00:37:04.840 time and that it was easy to restore. 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:09.550 And I tried like, backup buddy for years and, a bunch of other ones. 00:37:09.610 --> 00:37:11.080 all the ones that I could think to test. 00:37:11.080 --> 00:37:12.400 Some were in the cloud, some were not. 00:37:12.850 --> 00:37:16.320 and I even, even, so managed wp, we use them for every site. 00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:17.760 We back up everything in the cloud. 00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:20.890 We already are running, cloud backups on whatever host we're using. 00:37:20.890 --> 00:37:24.070 We're using site ground primarily, as the hosting solution. 00:37:24.850 --> 00:37:27.760 but we're even backing up that on managed WP, just so we have 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:29.620 multiple redundancies and whatnot. 00:37:29.980 --> 00:37:32.770 So I love managed WP and since we had that, I, we've started to use it 00:37:32.770 --> 00:37:34.090 to send reports and it's been really 00:37:34.090 --> 00:37:34.480 nice. 00:37:34.510 --> 00:37:37.690 Like, and they have, I even, they have A-A-S-E-O feature in there where you 00:37:37.690 --> 00:37:39.040 can track up to a hundred keywords. 00:37:39.250 --> 00:37:41.350 I've started selling that, like, 00:37:41.560 --> 00:37:43.030 oh, you wanna track some keywords? 00:37:43.030 --> 00:37:43.330 Great. 00:37:43.330 --> 00:37:46.240 And basically we have two customers that are basically 00:37:46.240 --> 00:37:47.890 paying for our managed WP With 00:37:48.742 --> 00:37:49.102 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah. 00:37:49.150 --> 00:37:50.920 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: keyword tracking, you know, and, and I'm 00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:52.300 not doing any more work other than 00:37:52.300 --> 00:37:53.290 the onboarding, you know? 00:37:53.590 --> 00:37:58.450 So, and, and, and, and from a sales perspective that's 00:37:58.450 --> 00:37:59.920 leading to more conversations. 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:01.510 So like, how come my ranking went 00:38:01.510 --> 00:38:01.870 down? 00:38:01.870 --> 00:38:02.650 What happened? 00:38:02.680 --> 00:38:03.430 I'm like, I don't know. 00:38:03.430 --> 00:38:04.060 Let's talk. 00:38:04.252 --> 00:38:04.672 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah. 00:38:04.822 --> 00:38:05.122 Yeah. 00:38:05.542 --> 00:38:06.112 That's great. 00:38:07.210 --> 00:38:08.710 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: so that's on the WordPress end. 00:38:08.710 --> 00:38:08.950 You know, 00:38:08.950 --> 00:38:13.360 we use local, if we de develop locally, but usually we're developing staging sites 00:38:13.402 --> 00:38:13.692 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah. 00:38:13.692 --> 00:38:14.137 Yeah, Yeah, 00:38:14.737 --> 00:38:15.067 yeah. 00:38:15.487 --> 00:38:19.632 I like the, I like that you, this is a bit of a tangent, but I like that, 00:38:19.727 --> 00:38:22.607 that you're still using Beaver Builder, and I think that they've found, they've 00:38:22.607 --> 00:38:26.027 slotted themselves into a space of like 00:38:27.152 --> 00:38:30.707 a non hype, reliable page building tool 00:38:31.907 --> 00:38:32.147 on 00:38:32.147 --> 00:38:32.807 paper. 00:38:32.867 --> 00:38:33.647 I hope that means 00:38:34.262 --> 00:38:36.422 That they're still running a successful business 00:38:36.422 --> 00:38:40.412 compared to the giants who will cut cost and be in your face with 00:38:40.412 --> 00:38:42.872 marketing and ship every new feature. 00:38:42.872 --> 00:38:43.832 Because I've 00:38:43.832 --> 00:38:48.512 seen this year after year of like, oh, there's a new page builder out. 00:38:48.512 --> 00:38:50.852 Let's shift the whole business over there. 00:38:51.182 --> 00:38:53.102 I used Beaver Builder when I was at my agency. 00:38:53.312 --> 00:38:58.202 I could not understand anyone wanting to take that risk of like, you already 00:38:58.202 --> 00:38:59.732 have this back catalog of customers. 00:38:59.732 --> 00:39:00.392 You built this. 00:39:00.677 --> 00:39:03.227 You built sites for using X, Y, z, page builder. 00:39:03.407 --> 00:39:06.617 Now you saw another one that had two more features and you were like, let's 00:39:06.617 --> 00:39:08.057 shift the whole business over there. 00:39:08.327 --> 00:39:09.587 How does that make sense? 00:39:10.067 --> 00:39:10.637 You know? 00:39:10.857 --> 00:39:12.387 but people do it because they're, 00:39:12.387 --> 00:39:13.827 they're after a lower price. 00:39:14.037 --> 00:39:17.787 They're after a new feature, they're just getting bored and they're not thinking 00:39:17.787 --> 00:39:20.757 like scalable business, and that's scary. 00:39:21.090 --> 00:39:23.625 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: but also like the, on the cost end, like I 00:39:23.625 --> 00:39:26.865 always, like, I know because I, I have a lot of, I lead the word or 00:39:26.865 --> 00:39:27.975 I lead the WordPress user group. 00:39:27.975 --> 00:39:29.830 I meet, we, every Wednesday I get together with the, with the 00:39:30.015 --> 00:39:31.545 WordPress developers to cowork. 00:39:31.545 --> 00:39:34.035 And so we have a lot of these conversations and I'm always like 00:39:34.035 --> 00:39:39.855 surprised by like they're providing plugin licenses without any additional charges. 00:39:39.855 --> 00:39:40.245 And I'm like. 00:39:40.830 --> 00:39:43.920 Just charge 'em a few bucks and you've covered at least your fees. 00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:44.160 Like, 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:45.150 you know, 00:39:45.180 --> 00:39:45.950 like, there's a 00:39:45.950 --> 00:39:47.780 lot of like businessy here. 00:39:47.780 --> 00:39:50.231 Another example is like, so two ways to grow your business. 00:39:50.231 --> 00:39:51.310 One is to make more money. 00:39:52.030 --> 00:39:53.380 Three ways make more money. 00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:55.450 Well, I guess make more money are cut costs. 00:39:55.450 --> 00:39:56.231 Those are the two ways. 00:39:56.231 --> 00:39:59.650 But like, if you just look at the making money part, one way to make 00:39:59.650 --> 00:40:00.970 more money is to sell more stuff. 00:40:01.510 --> 00:40:03.370 Another way is just to increase fees. 00:40:03.700 --> 00:40:08.140 And so like a year ago I increased fees across the board, 5.7%. 00:40:08.725 --> 00:40:11.695 On all my customers without, without exception. 00:40:12.097 --> 00:40:13.657 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: How did you come up with 5.7? 00:40:14.155 --> 00:40:15.415 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: by 5.7% 00:40:15.475 --> 00:40:18.475 basically without doing any more work. 00:40:18.787 --> 00:40:19.897 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: how did you come up to the number? 00:40:19.897 --> 00:40:20.947 5.7%. 00:40:21.325 --> 00:40:22.825 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: it seemed pretty mathy. 00:40:23.575 --> 00:40:27.205 Like it seemed like if someone pressed me, I could explain it with some bit of math. 00:40:27.295 --> 00:40:27.355 Yeah. 00:40:27.517 --> 00:40:28.717 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, but there was like probably like a 00:40:28.717 --> 00:40:32.557 bigger, like, here's the flat fee number I'm trying to achieve, and 5.7 00:40:32.587 --> 00:40:34.897 across all my customers gets me to that number. 00:40:34.945 --> 00:40:36.115 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: no, not really. 00:40:36.115 --> 00:40:38.315 IW I was really just, I wanted to increase costs. 00:40:38.345 --> 00:40:38.885 'cause our 00:40:38.885 --> 00:40:43.055 costs are increasing and like we, we never increased cost in 18 years, 17 00:40:43.127 --> 00:40:43.457 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: right. 00:40:43.487 --> 00:40:45.347 This was a question I was gonna have for you, so this is great. 00:40:45.425 --> 00:40:45.575 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: great. 00:40:45.755 --> 00:40:45.965 Yeah. 00:40:45.965 --> 00:40:47.945 So we never, IM increased costs. 00:40:47.985 --> 00:40:50.865 I shouldn't say like we charged ar like I say, we've been charging 00:40:50.865 --> 00:40:56.225 arbitrarily for basically the same website for 18 years and, you know, but. 00:40:58.041 --> 00:41:01.491 On the hosting end, we never, I shouldn't say we've charged more, but we never 00:41:01.491 --> 00:41:03.201 increased cost on existing customers. 00:41:03.561 --> 00:41:04.581 That just hasn't been a thing. 00:41:04.581 --> 00:41:08.331 So, I just felt like, you know, we've been at it 18 years and in my mind I 00:41:08.331 --> 00:41:11.241 was like, my salary isn't going up. 00:41:11.571 --> 00:41:15.801 Like, and so at least if I do this, I can increase my salary by 5.7%, 00:41:16.041 --> 00:41:18.801 which, which my wife has been clamoring for for a decade. 00:41:18.801 --> 00:41:20.841 You know, like everyone else is getting raises. 00:41:21.291 --> 00:41:23.511 You're sitting there not getting a raise and you're the, you know, 00:41:24.377 --> 00:41:26.823 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, Yeah, that, that's smart of you because 00:41:26.823 --> 00:41:31.023 Yeah, like once again, if you go into the air quotes, real world of, 00:41:31.353 --> 00:41:31.563 of, 00:41:31.563 --> 00:41:37.833 business, food, lumber, electricians, plumbers, everything, literally 00:41:37.833 --> 00:41:41.192 going up and, you know, I feel like a lot of us web designers or 00:41:41.583 --> 00:41:44.593 agency owners I should say, but sitting behind a computer, even if 00:41:44.593 --> 00:41:47.893 you're consulting, a lot of us aren't, we're just absorbing that into our 00:41:47.893 --> 00:41:49.693 already existing margins, which. 00:41:50.203 --> 00:41:51.973 You know, it's driven by market demand. 00:41:51.973 --> 00:41:52.843 I totally get it. 00:41:52.903 --> 00:41:57.973 More competition the harder it is, but you know, standing out is very important. 00:41:58.073 --> 00:42:02.363 leads me to, one of my final questions here is you mentioned SEO being the 00:42:02.363 --> 00:42:04.253 biggest, marketing factor for you. 00:42:04.503 --> 00:42:06.093 you have a great podcasting setup. 00:42:06.093 --> 00:42:07.443 Are you're doing podcasting content as well? 00:42:08.043 --> 00:42:10.443 Like what other factors help drive traffic to your business? 00:42:13.896 --> 00:42:17.801 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I, I, I think if anything it's Relationships that I've 00:42:17.801 --> 00:42:20.051 built over 18 years in the business. 00:42:20.121 --> 00:42:23.911 I don't think my, you know, I have some YouTube videos out there. 00:42:23.911 --> 00:42:28.741 I've done a lot of LinkedIning stuff, but the, the leads that I get that are 00:42:28.741 --> 00:42:33.061 not SEO are like an old friend who's like, Hey, I work at a marketing agency 00:42:33.061 --> 00:42:34.951 here and we need a WordPress person. 00:42:35.321 --> 00:42:36.520 so we just closed one of those. 00:42:36.591 --> 00:42:39.950 I have a buddy who's was at the coffee shop the other day and not the other 00:42:39.950 --> 00:42:43.310 day, a couple months ago, and he just chatted up someone next to him. 00:42:43.731 --> 00:42:45.231 They're like, yeah, we need a website. 00:42:45.261 --> 00:42:46.941 And they've become a client of ours. 00:42:46.941 --> 00:42:47.271 You know, it's 00:42:47.271 --> 00:42:48.231 like that sort of, 00:42:48.238 --> 00:42:48.528 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah. 00:42:49.131 --> 00:42:51.471 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I, I've been not good. 00:42:51.571 --> 00:42:55.441 I have intended to be good, but I've been failing, failing miserably at like 00:42:55.681 --> 00:42:56.671 other marketing 00:42:56.778 --> 00:42:58.363 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 00:42:58.363 --> 00:42:58.723 yeah, 00:42:59.443 --> 00:43:00.563 yeah, no, that's great. 00:43:00.563 --> 00:43:04.193 And referral, obviously still like the number one driver once 00:43:04.193 --> 00:43:07.103 again, is AI doing that for us. 00:43:07.343 --> 00:43:07.943 Google search 00:43:07.943 --> 00:43:08.818 isn't doing that for us. 00:43:09.083 --> 00:43:09.563 you know, it's 00:43:09.563 --> 00:43:11.333 just putting out 00:43:11.333 --> 00:43:14.123 good, a good product, having, you know, 00:43:14.738 --> 00:43:18.308 Something that you aspire to, you know, achieve, right? 00:43:18.308 --> 00:43:20.738 Like, this is, this is why you hire my business. 00:43:20.738 --> 00:43:22.808 This is how we think, this is how we operate. 00:43:23.248 --> 00:43:25.018 you know, SEO is working great for you. 00:43:25.418 --> 00:43:28.268 but still at the end of the day, I'm sure referrals and people like trusting 00:43:28.268 --> 00:43:31.538 your work and being like, Hey, we know another business that needs something. 00:43:32.408 --> 00:43:32.558 You're 00:43:32.558 --> 00:43:32.948 the guy, 00:43:33.161 --> 00:43:33.221 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: the 00:43:33.221 --> 00:43:33.281 guy. 00:43:33.281 --> 00:43:33.371 Yeah. 00:43:33.371 --> 00:43:36.341 And here's the, the, there's gonna be someone out there, of course, who, 00:43:36.491 --> 00:43:40.151 who's gonna be like, no, I can use ar ai to automate my email marketing. 00:43:40.331 --> 00:43:42.221 And anyone who seasoned to this is 00:43:42.221 --> 00:43:44.021 gonna go, not really 00:43:44.501 --> 00:43:45.461 like good luck. 00:43:45.461 --> 00:43:47.711 I mean, maybe if you had an email list of 3 million people, 00:43:47.711 --> 00:43:49.001 maybe you could land a few deals. 00:43:49.001 --> 00:43:49.241 But 00:43:49.691 --> 00:43:52.941 like, I have a buddy who works at a big, SEO agency in town, and his 00:43:52.941 --> 00:43:54.681 job is to get sales for the agency. 00:43:55.011 --> 00:43:57.681 So he's, he's marketing like B2B bigger companies. 00:43:57.681 --> 00:43:59.511 And he was telling me like. 00:43:59.886 --> 00:44:02.466 This isn't even an ai, but I could see AI doing this. 00:44:02.466 --> 00:44:07.996 But, he was saying one of his bosses wanted him to write like copy that 00:44:07.996 --> 00:44:12.076 was like, very not correct for like, like, it was like put a big thumbs 00:44:12.076 --> 00:44:13.366 up in the subject line, you know, 00:44:13.366 --> 00:44:14.296 like that sort of thing. 00:44:14.296 --> 00:44:14.716 And he's like, 00:44:14.986 --> 00:44:17.566 that's not really like how I wanna position it. 00:44:17.566 --> 00:44:19.426 But that's the sort of thing AI will tell you to do. 00:44:19.843 --> 00:44:20.503 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, yeah, 00:44:21.133 --> 00:44:21.643 yeah. 00:44:21.643 --> 00:44:23.443 That's, that's a whole other, 00:44:23.593 --> 00:44:25.273 you know, soapbox moment for me. 00:44:25.273 --> 00:44:28.993 But like, yeah, I, I posted something the other day and somebody like 00:44:28.993 --> 00:44:30.223 tweeted back to me was like, 00:44:30.223 --> 00:44:33.343 you didn't sell me in 30 seconds, so I don't really care about this. 00:44:33.343 --> 00:44:34.993 And I'm like, guy, I've never put out 00:44:34.993 --> 00:44:36.163 anything that I've 00:44:36.163 --> 00:44:36.463 want. 00:44:36.463 --> 00:44:37.543 Like I've never 00:44:37.543 --> 00:44:38.053 published a 00:44:38.053 --> 00:44:40.183 piece of content trying to sell anybody. 00:44:40.343 --> 00:44:41.063 On anything. 00:44:41.303 --> 00:44:43.103 Like you either want it or you don't. 00:44:43.103 --> 00:44:43.373 Right. 00:44:43.793 --> 00:44:44.393 And, and that's 00:44:44.393 --> 00:44:47.573 why I and it wasn't even a thing I was selling, I was just, it was just 00:44:47.573 --> 00:44:48.893 about one of my tutorials or something. 00:44:48.893 --> 00:44:49.523 I forget what it was, 00:44:49.913 --> 00:44:50.653 but, people, 00:44:50.698 --> 00:44:52.603 I, I just don't live in that mindset. 00:44:52.693 --> 00:44:55.573 I, and I debate this with folks like Mark Semanski and, and Kevin 00:44:55.573 --> 00:44:59.243 Geary, who, you know, might have more of like a strategic approach 00:44:59.243 --> 00:45:01.463 for creating content and doing social 00:45:02.003 --> 00:45:02.393 like. 00:45:02.803 --> 00:45:03.313 I don't, 00:45:04.046 --> 00:45:04.246 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Mm-hmm. 00:45:04.543 --> 00:45:07.783 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: and I know that's like a bad thing, but my only 00:45:07.783 --> 00:45:11.953 advantage is I haven't given up where I'm not saying Mark and, and, and 00:45:11.953 --> 00:45:15.643 Kevin would, but I think folks who are just in the like, growth mindset 00:45:15.643 --> 00:45:19.393 of like optimize the thumbnail, put the keywords in, in, in the video 00:45:19.393 --> 00:45:22.943 and you know, in the first five seconds you have to punch 00:45:22.943 --> 00:45:24.113 Zoom in and zoom back out. 00:45:24.113 --> 00:45:26.003 Like, I don't wanna do that, 00:45:26.036 --> 00:45:26.156 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: that, 00:45:26.156 --> 00:45:26.157 Yep. 00:45:26.321 --> 00:45:26.711 Yeah. 00:45:26.951 --> 00:45:27.071 Well, 00:45:27.071 --> 00:45:27.221 you're 00:45:27.413 --> 00:45:28.523 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: want my authentic content. 00:45:28.541 --> 00:45:28.991 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: yeah. 00:45:28.991 --> 00:45:31.451 And you're pointing to something that's unique in the WordPress space. 00:45:31.481 --> 00:45:34.151 Not unique, but very special about it. 00:45:34.611 --> 00:45:37.761 and that is that, the community is what built WordPress. 00:45:37.761 --> 00:45:40.641 And I give Matt all the props for that. 00:45:40.641 --> 00:45:43.941 Like he built an amazing community and continues to maintain it. 00:45:44.361 --> 00:45:46.211 And, Matt Mullen is who I'm talking about. 00:45:46.211 --> 00:45:46.601 But you too. 00:45:46.631 --> 00:45:46.781 Yeah. 00:45:46.781 --> 00:45:47.561 I'll put you there too. 00:45:47.981 --> 00:45:51.461 So you, I mean, honestly, you're like, one of the pillars of the community, 00:45:51.461 --> 00:45:55.271 like the people who really like, gather people together to, you know, 00:45:55.271 --> 00:45:57.341 to, to think about WordPress deeply. 00:45:57.341 --> 00:46:01.241 And, one of the things that right now that our community is going through 00:46:01.270 --> 00:46:06.851 is, you know, the, this recent stuff between Automatic and WP Engine, it. 00:46:07.631 --> 00:46:09.851 It points to the strength of the community in a way. 00:46:09.941 --> 00:46:14.471 And I really hope they figure it out and can get back to building the community up. 00:46:14.591 --> 00:46:16.151 because it's been, it's been, it's been sad. 00:46:16.151 --> 00:46:20.051 It's been kind of heartbreaking to me to, but at the same time, like I know I have 00:46:20.051 --> 00:46:21.821 two brothers I don't talk to anymore. 00:46:21.911 --> 00:46:25.901 you know, two blood brothers, and I know there's, that stuff happens 00:46:25.901 --> 00:46:30.881 in, in, it's very small and like, as I say, the community, but like, 00:46:31.031 --> 00:46:32.351 if it can happen in my family. 00:46:32.636 --> 00:46:33.506 It can happen here. 00:46:33.506 --> 00:46:36.946 And I really hope that, I, I'm really hopeful for the community 00:46:36.946 --> 00:46:38.026 that will figure it out. 00:46:38.026 --> 00:46:38.926 And I think Matt will. 00:46:38.926 --> 00:46:42.716 I I really, it's interesting 'cause a lot of my peers here in Minneapolis 00:46:42.716 --> 00:46:47.786 that I talk to don't have, they've lost faith in the WordPress community and I 00:46:47.786 --> 00:46:53.846 haven't, you know, there's work to be done and I'm gonna do my little part to. 00:46:54.371 --> 00:46:55.181 Do what I can do. 00:46:55.181 --> 00:46:57.971 And you're, you're, you've been continuing to do that too. 00:46:57.971 --> 00:47:02.231 And, you know, without blame and without expectation, you know, I just kind of, 00:47:02.231 --> 00:47:04.871 I, I'm gonna, you know, we're still here. 00:47:04.871 --> 00:47:04.931 Yeah. 00:47:06.203 --> 00:47:07.313 matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: The Mighty mo.com. 00:47:07.313 --> 00:47:08.753 He's Toby. 00:47:08.813 --> 00:47:13.403 you can find him once again, the mighty mo.com. 00:47:13.403 --> 00:47:14.213 Toby, where else do 00:47:14.213 --> 00:47:14.273 you 00:47:14.298 --> 00:47:15.458 want folks to go to say, 00:47:15.458 --> 00:47:15.658 thanks? 00:47:15.721 --> 00:47:18.001 toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: you can hit me up on LinkedIn, send me a message. 00:47:18.001 --> 00:47:19.381 Be happy to converse there. 00:47:19.411 --> 00:47:21.301 And email's great too.