WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:04.040 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:09.680 have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they 00:00:09.680 --> 00:00:13.888 got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. 00:00:14.032 --> 00:00:18.839 How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, 00:00:19.169 --> 00:00:21.689 and most importantly, find joy. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.259 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:24.373 --> 00:00:27.463 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:27.468 --> 00:00:31.456 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:31.456 --> 00:00:37.074 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:37.124 --> 00:00:41.534 Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free, where we talk to people who. 00:00:42.269 --> 00:00:46.399 Are living and have lived, and continue to live self-actualized lives. 00:00:46.739 --> 00:00:47.759 what can we learn from them? 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:48.629 How do they do it? 00:00:48.969 --> 00:00:50.199 how can they mentor us? 00:00:50.559 --> 00:00:51.639 how can we do it? 00:00:52.179 --> 00:00:55.599 It's always worth, giving it up to the mentors. 00:00:56.029 --> 00:00:57.109 , we have one today. 00:00:57.179 --> 00:00:58.499 someone Rather Extraordinary. 00:00:58.889 --> 00:01:00.029 We've got Sammy Leslie. 00:01:00.989 --> 00:01:05.039 You probably dunno who Sammy Leslie is because Sammy Leslie is one of 00:01:05.039 --> 00:01:09.989 those people who likes to do it from behind the scenes, and I had 00:01:09.994 --> 00:01:14.999 to kind of put a lasu around her and pull her a little bit forward. 00:01:15.059 --> 00:01:17.189 She's now sitting in her garden to talk to us. 00:01:18.449 --> 00:01:19.529 We're very lucky to have her. 00:01:19.579 --> 00:01:22.629 , Sammy runs, castle Leslie Castle. 00:01:22.629 --> 00:01:27.529 Leslie is on the face of it, a luxury, super luxury 00:01:28.459 --> 00:01:32.569 resort, hotel experience thing. 00:01:33.469 --> 00:01:39.109 Legendary thing really in Ireland, which the great and the good and the celebs of 00:01:39.109 --> 00:01:45.139 this world go to, and also equestrians and also, ordinary people like you and I. 00:01:45.869 --> 00:01:48.119 and it seems to run flawlessly. 00:01:48.119 --> 00:01:52.259 It seems that you arrive at this place and you suddenly get to kind 00:01:52.259 --> 00:01:56.579 of live the baronial life, at least for an hour or two or a day or 00:01:56.579 --> 00:01:58.259 two or a month or a week or two. 00:01:59.544 --> 00:02:02.094 it's Sammy who makes this experience possible. 00:02:02.094 --> 00:02:02.934 Sammy, Leslie. 00:02:03.654 --> 00:02:04.434 It's not easy. 00:02:05.334 --> 00:02:10.794 Sammy has had all kinds of challenges in her life and yet manages to 00:02:10.794 --> 00:02:17.534 present a dream of how life should be to, anyone who walks or drives 00:02:17.534 --> 00:02:19.574 through the gates of Castle Les. 00:02:19.754 --> 00:02:21.704 And it doesn't matter whether they're coming in with a lot of money, 00:02:21.704 --> 00:02:24.074 it doesn't matter if they're just coming in for a drink at the bar. 00:02:24.344 --> 00:02:25.484 Everyone is treated the same. 00:02:25.484 --> 00:02:28.634 Everyone is treated like a Lord or a lady. 00:02:29.144 --> 00:02:31.424 It's a, an extraordinary experience. 00:02:31.544 --> 00:02:35.324 it takes an enormous amount of skill to put this together. 00:02:35.704 --> 00:02:38.044 and it's something that sort of sets people free. 00:02:38.344 --> 00:02:43.204 I think anyone I've spoken to has come away from an experience that Castle has 00:02:43.204 --> 00:02:49.924 said this was a seminal experience in inspiration and how the relationship 00:02:49.924 --> 00:02:55.054 between human and landscape and history and mythology and all of these 00:02:55.054 --> 00:03:00.934 things have been sort of rolled into one experience seemingly seamlessly. 00:03:02.224 --> 00:03:03.634 And it's really all down to one person. 00:03:03.834 --> 00:03:04.404 Sammy Leslie. 00:03:04.404 --> 00:03:05.454 So I want to know how she does it. 00:03:06.034 --> 00:03:09.124 , and I want to know how we can learn to do similar things in our lives. 00:03:09.334 --> 00:03:11.854 So, buckle up because this is a treat. 00:03:12.094 --> 00:03:13.744 Sammy, welcome to Live 00:03:13.744 --> 00:03:14.374 Sammie Leslie: Free Ride Free. 00:03:15.514 --> 00:03:16.144 Thank you. 00:03:16.144 --> 00:03:17.074 Lovely to hear you. 00:03:18.424 --> 00:03:21.424 Rupert Isaacson: Can you tell us who you are and. 00:03:22.099 --> 00:03:24.619 Why you are in this position doing this 00:03:24.624 --> 00:03:25.039 Sammie Leslie: stuff? 00:03:26.329 --> 00:03:28.489 That's always the most terrible question. 00:03:28.489 --> 00:03:32.849 I have no idea who, who I am or what I do. 00:03:33.119 --> 00:03:37.409 I just grew up at with a, you know, very simple ethos is of all you 00:03:37.409 --> 00:03:40.199 can do in life is the best of what you have and by those around you. 00:03:40.809 --> 00:03:44.169 and it doesn't matter if all you got is in life is, you know, one 00:03:44.169 --> 00:03:49.059 bucket of water that which could save somebody's life or grow some very 00:03:49.059 --> 00:03:51.639 valuable food or, or you've got a lot. 00:03:51.644 --> 00:03:55.449 It's, it's just about understanding what you have and how you do the best. 00:03:55.989 --> 00:04:00.309 You know, we're, we live in a very interconnected world, or we should 00:04:00.309 --> 00:04:01.929 live in a very interconnected world. 00:04:02.529 --> 00:04:08.499 And over the last couple of decades it's just become so siloed. 00:04:08.559 --> 00:04:12.219 You know, nature's over there and you know, people are over there and 00:04:12.429 --> 00:04:16.359 buildings are over here and history's over there and smart's over there. 00:04:16.359 --> 00:04:17.289 And, and. 00:04:17.919 --> 00:04:20.919 You know, climate change is something we don't even talk about. 00:04:20.919 --> 00:04:25.209 And I mean, here we really talk about two things are fascinated by two things, 00:04:25.509 --> 00:04:31.689 biodiversity, which is the wonderful, complex, interwoven, relationships 00:04:31.689 --> 00:04:36.369 of nature and neurodiversity in the fact that we all have brains and we 00:04:36.369 --> 00:04:38.979 all process information differently. 00:04:39.309 --> 00:04:42.339 And, you know, same thing, a whole series of wonderful, 00:04:42.339 --> 00:04:44.709 interwoven complex relationships. 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:48.909 I, I don't think you can silo, you know, people and place and nature and 00:04:48.909 --> 00:04:52.689 planet without detrimental effect. 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:56.649 So yeah, I suppose my part of my family are American. 00:04:57.079 --> 00:05:02.119 and through the Jeromes and the eyes, they're supposed to be Sue and IO descent. 00:05:02.179 --> 00:05:07.969 And when we were children, we grew up very much on side of First Nation or 00:05:08.269 --> 00:05:10.759 native or indigenous American people. 00:05:11.089 --> 00:05:13.859 And we just wanted to kick the shit outta the Cowboys. 00:05:14.239 --> 00:05:16.429 sorry, I'm not allowed to say that probably. 00:05:16.699 --> 00:05:20.899 So we were always told to think a bit deeper and look a bit further 00:05:20.899 --> 00:05:24.799 and gently question everything because life is not the series 00:05:24.799 --> 00:05:26.569 of black and white binary boxes. 00:05:26.569 --> 00:05:27.919 We're trying to put it into. 00:05:28.669 --> 00:05:30.439 And it's not working as we can tell. 00:05:30.889 --> 00:05:32.209 So you, you are coming 00:05:32.209 --> 00:05:34.089 Rupert Isaacson: out of a background, with some roots in 00:05:34.089 --> 00:05:38.169 Native America, yet there you are sitting in County Monaghan in Ireland. 00:05:38.174 --> 00:05:38.339 Mm-hmm. 00:05:38.599 --> 00:05:41.849 on the border with between North and Southern Ireland, running this 00:05:41.854 --> 00:05:45.619 fast state, and shouldering all the responsibilities that come with 00:05:45.619 --> 00:05:49.969 it, because it's, it's a working estate and, it's a hotel and it's a 00:05:49.969 --> 00:05:51.379 farm, and it's all of these things. 00:05:53.119 --> 00:05:56.689 As far as I know, you weren't supposed to be in this position. 00:05:58.009 --> 00:05:58.099 No. 00:05:58.099 --> 00:05:58.999 I'm, tell us the story. 00:05:59.029 --> 00:06:00.169 How, where were you born? 00:06:00.174 --> 00:06:00.709 How were you born? 00:06:00.714 --> 00:06:01.219 How'd you end up 00:06:01.219 --> 00:06:01.579 Sammie Leslie: doing this? 00:06:03.029 --> 00:06:06.629 I am the, the mistress is a legitimate child. 00:06:06.899 --> 00:06:11.309 If you want to put labels on people, I'm very proud of it. 00:06:11.459 --> 00:06:13.959 You know, my mom and dad, absolutely fell in love. 00:06:14.919 --> 00:06:19.214 My dad had an amazing first, wife, Agnes Burnell Hungarian, German 00:06:19.214 --> 00:06:22.154 j who with her mom fled Berlin. 00:06:22.484 --> 00:06:27.374 just about one of the last sort of trains to get out before things got really closed 00:06:27.374 --> 00:06:32.119 down and an awful lot of their family, it didn't get down, it didn't get out. 00:06:32.329 --> 00:06:36.559 So, always grew up with that sort of understanding of the desperate 00:06:36.619 --> 00:06:41.719 cruelty that humans can reflect or can inflict on fellow human beings. 00:06:42.379 --> 00:06:46.369 And my mom and dad were not supposed to be, and I wasn't supposed to be either. 00:06:46.819 --> 00:06:52.339 And, , dad went to see a psychic, with mum and the psychic 00:06:52.339 --> 00:06:53.929 turned around and went, ah, Mr. 00:06:53.934 --> 00:06:54.379 Leslie. 00:06:54.799 --> 00:06:56.629 Yeah, little, another child on the way. 00:06:56.629 --> 00:06:57.319 Little brown. 00:06:57.709 --> 00:06:58.759 I had brown girl. 00:06:59.359 --> 00:07:06.089 And, mum was blonde and blue eyed and dad was like, oh, please, is it my 00:07:06.329 --> 00:07:07.919 wife or my mistress that are pregnant? 00:07:07.919 --> 00:07:08.819 What's happening here? 00:07:09.239 --> 00:07:10.259 and I came along. 00:07:10.719 --> 00:07:15.729 so certainly a child that wasn't supposed to, wasn't supposed to be, but I can 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:19.069 totally understand if my, if my mother had made other choices, I've always 00:07:19.069 --> 00:07:22.429 been too terrified to have children thought absolutely terrifies me. 00:07:22.799 --> 00:07:29.769 so yes, I was not the expected one, to do this, and I just fell in love with place. 00:07:29.774 --> 00:07:34.149 Here it is one of the most magical places on, you know, on the planet. 00:07:34.179 --> 00:07:36.999 There's this amazing little corner of Ireland that was carved out 00:07:36.999 --> 00:07:40.899 by the glaciers with glittering lakes and wonderful woodlands. 00:07:40.989 --> 00:07:43.419 And as children, we were feral children. 00:07:43.989 --> 00:07:48.069 I mean, as we left in the morning and we, we probably grabbed a head collar or 00:07:48.069 --> 00:07:52.709 a bridle, and grabbed a pony, which was normally a scruffy rescue from somewhere. 00:07:53.109 --> 00:07:55.299 and we probably had a bit of a packed lunch somewhere, and 00:07:55.304 --> 00:07:56.529 we literally just disappeared. 00:07:56.529 --> 00:07:59.889 And as long as we were home before dark and there was not too many, too much 00:07:59.889 --> 00:08:01.719 blood and preferably no broken bones. 00:08:02.274 --> 00:08:05.004 nobody really noticed or, or probably cared. 00:08:05.444 --> 00:08:09.434 it was, it was an absolute idyllic childhood being allowed 00:08:09.434 --> 00:08:10.994 to be that free range in nature. 00:08:11.744 --> 00:08:12.974 And I think that's one of, now that, 00:08:13.334 --> 00:08:18.804 Rupert Isaacson: that, that wasn't normal for the, children of the Land Gentry. 00:08:18.904 --> 00:08:25.144 what, what one knows of that background is that one was required usually to 00:08:25.144 --> 00:08:32.974 have a, a loyalty first to cast, to clan and then after that to family and then 00:08:32.974 --> 00:08:34.384 after, you know, personal relationships. 00:08:34.774 --> 00:08:35.944 No, not so much. 00:08:36.394 --> 00:08:38.464 You seem to have come outta something very, very different 00:08:38.464 --> 00:08:38.704 Sammie Leslie: there. 00:08:38.954 --> 00:08:39.194 well, my. 00:08:40.814 --> 00:08:44.294 My dad is probably, he is the third, but he's actually the fourth child. 00:08:44.294 --> 00:08:47.984 The third child was still born and is buried under a tree in 00:08:47.984 --> 00:08:49.244 Tolbert Great Park in London. 00:08:49.704 --> 00:08:54.344 because he was un, he was un baptized, so therefore there was nowhere to bury him. 00:08:54.864 --> 00:08:58.404 so he again, grew up quite free range as such. 00:08:58.404 --> 00:09:01.904 I think his father had sort of given up, and he was handed over to a 00:09:01.904 --> 00:09:06.754 series of nannies, and his hair was dyed blonde until he was about five, 00:09:07.114 --> 00:09:10.894 and nobody noticed, because if you were a nanny in Hyde Park, you were 00:09:11.074 --> 00:09:12.964 much, it was much higher status. 00:09:13.054 --> 00:09:16.424 Well, first to have the eldest boy, preferably blonde as well. 00:09:16.894 --> 00:09:21.584 and if you couldn't have that, you, you had a blonde child and literally 00:09:21.584 --> 00:09:24.674 dad's hair was, died blonde for the first five years of his life. 00:09:24.674 --> 00:09:25.604 Nobody noticed. 00:09:25.964 --> 00:09:31.454 So, and that was in London and yeah, he, he grew up, he was born in 1921, so 00:09:31.454 --> 00:09:33.104 it was just after the first World war. 00:09:33.754 --> 00:09:37.144 and I think he had a little bit of free range childhood in, in many ways as 00:09:37.144 --> 00:09:40.984 well, because, you know, the grownups were tired and busy at that point. 00:09:41.524 --> 00:09:45.994 Remember, our, our, in our world, you know, of, of big old houses, 00:09:46.264 --> 00:09:49.354 having a relationship with your child before there's seven can hold a 00:09:49.354 --> 00:09:53.374 conversation, mix a, a folded lettuce, leave with one, try this again. 00:09:53.854 --> 00:09:56.854 Having a relationship with a child before the age of seven when they're 00:09:56.859 --> 00:10:00.814 supposed to be able to, you know, read the newspaper folded lettuce, leave 00:10:00.814 --> 00:10:03.244 with a fork and mix a good dry martini. 00:10:05.059 --> 00:10:07.309 It wasn't something that one did really. 00:10:07.549 --> 00:10:07.669 No. 00:10:07.669 --> 00:10:10.669 You know, they were kinda brought up with nannies until that point, and, 00:10:10.669 --> 00:10:16.549 and they could be amazing, kind, wonderful people who desperately cruel. 00:10:17.029 --> 00:10:23.329 And one of dad's was quite cruel for her potty training was tying if he, if he we 00:10:23.569 --> 00:10:26.839 himself, she would tie the white nappy to his face and make him stand in the corner. 00:10:27.389 --> 00:10:31.199 but that was sort as improving and Charact a good thing. 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:32.669 Yeah. 00:10:33.139 --> 00:10:33.929 That was his mother. 00:10:34.019 --> 00:10:34.919 That was your grandmother? 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:36.599 No, that was his nanny. 00:10:36.749 --> 00:10:37.259 Oh, that was his 00:10:37.259 --> 00:10:37.709 Rupert Isaacson: nanny. 00:10:38.489 --> 00:10:38.849 Gosh. 00:10:39.479 --> 00:10:39.659 Ouch. 00:10:39.719 --> 00:10:44.519 Sammie Leslie: Yeah, his mother was, and you know, it's the type of 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:46.259 thing somebody be in jail for now. 00:10:46.409 --> 00:10:46.799 Indeed. 00:10:47.229 --> 00:10:48.289 No, absolutely indeed. 00:10:48.289 --> 00:10:50.939 But then character building as you quite rightly say. 00:10:51.219 --> 00:10:52.064 , so go ahead. 00:10:52.064 --> 00:10:52.424 Expect. 00:10:52.654 --> 00:10:54.244 So how, how did that, how did, how did he 00:10:54.249 --> 00:10:59.914 Rupert Isaacson: then translate from this neglected, rather abusive, 00:10:59.994 --> 00:11:05.504 upbringing in London, to this extraordinary wild and magical estate in 00:11:05.504 --> 00:11:05.954 Sammie Leslie: Ireland? 00:11:07.004 --> 00:11:09.044 Well, this was where they came in the summer. 00:11:09.134 --> 00:11:11.384 It was too cold really, in the winter. 00:11:11.694 --> 00:11:14.604 and they came here for summer and holidays and he absolutely loved it. 00:11:14.604 --> 00:11:17.664 And, and again, kind of just went fairwell and disappeared off into the 00:11:17.664 --> 00:11:21.954 woods and out in the lake fishing and out swimming and up trees and, you 00:11:21.954 --> 00:11:24.354 know, on ponies and down to the farm. 00:11:24.359 --> 00:11:29.499 And, you know, Very much outside and, and, and a nature lover and 00:11:29.499 --> 00:11:30.849 really connected with the nature. 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:34.299 And I think that's when he really fell in love with spiritualism and that 00:11:34.299 --> 00:11:37.689 sort of, um, you know, through the American side of the family that sort 00:11:37.689 --> 00:11:41.949 of, you know, first nation spiritualism and connecting connection to land. 00:11:43.179 --> 00:11:44.469 So your father, 00:11:45.369 --> 00:11:47.319 Rupert Isaacson: well, at what point did he then decide to 00:11:47.319 --> 00:11:51.009 just live at Castle Leslie and immerse himself in that landscape? 00:11:51.219 --> 00:11:52.359 And then how did you come along? 00:11:53.499 --> 00:11:56.559 Sammie Leslie: Well, if you go back to 1914 when the eldest boy was 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.239 shot, the second boy didn't want it. 00:11:58.239 --> 00:11:59.499 He wanted to become a priest. 00:12:00.009 --> 00:12:02.149 the third boy, had had polio. 00:12:02.539 --> 00:12:07.009 So then it was sort of put into a, an estate company to try and protect it. 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:12.349 And then the next generation, my aunt was born 1912, but she was a girl and 00:12:12.354 --> 00:12:15.799 I was in my forties before I realized she was the eldest child because 00:12:16.249 --> 00:12:18.109 the next one, uncle Jack was a boy. 00:12:18.109 --> 00:12:22.879 So I assumed he was the eldest, but he'd been a prisoner of war for five 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:27.889 years and really couldn't cope with the sort of stresses of running the place. 00:12:28.499 --> 00:12:31.319 and it was just known as the hot potato cuz nobody really wanted it. 00:12:31.619 --> 00:12:35.339 So then it went to, my dad picked up the pieces and said, I'll take it on. 00:12:35.819 --> 00:12:41.639 and then I'm the fifth of six kids and while everybody loves and adores it, 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:47.519 you know, the reality of four letter words, like work and bill and, you 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.429 know, roof, and, you know, things that need to be scare me now with these 00:12:50.429 --> 00:12:50.789 Rupert Isaacson: words. 00:12:51.209 --> 00:12:54.194 Sammie Leslie: So, I love four letter words. 00:12:54.564 --> 00:12:55.614 there's lots of good ones. 00:12:55.764 --> 00:12:58.914 and, but see, at the end of the day, people should follow their passion in 00:12:58.914 --> 00:13:03.294 life and their career and what they want to do and, and not do what the 00:13:03.294 --> 00:13:06.924 world tells 'em they should do because they're just gonna be miserable for life. 00:13:07.674 --> 00:13:08.364 So did your, 00:13:08.364 --> 00:13:12.954 Rupert Isaacson: did your dad, it sounds like he managed to break free 00:13:12.984 --> 00:13:18.004 from that kind of, tying diapers to your face type, stringent upbringing, 00:13:18.484 --> 00:13:21.754 and he didn't inflict that on you or his other children, it seems. 00:13:22.174 --> 00:13:25.504 Can you describe, what the culture at Castle Leslie was 00:13:25.504 --> 00:13:27.274 when you were a girl growing up? 00:13:27.314 --> 00:13:28.594 How, how was it, what was going 00:13:28.594 --> 00:13:28.864 Sammie Leslie: on there? 00:13:29.644 --> 00:13:33.784 Well, dad had, I suppose he found his, his wings literally when he went into 00:13:33.784 --> 00:13:37.884 the RF at 19 and got away, you know, went through the war and got away from 00:13:37.884 --> 00:13:40.554 the constraints of, of family as such. 00:13:40.584 --> 00:13:44.484 And then he went off and became a filmmaker and music maker in London. 00:13:44.904 --> 00:13:47.484 And then he came home and took over and he started nightclub here in the 00:13:47.484 --> 00:13:48.984 sixties and then a hippie colony. 00:13:48.984 --> 00:13:52.414 So some of my nannies growing up Baner and, you know, would've 00:13:52.414 --> 00:13:54.274 been part of the hippie colony. 00:13:54.274 --> 00:14:00.634 So it was quite sort of free thinking in a very, you know, the, the, the Catholic 00:14:00.634 --> 00:14:02.644 church in Ireland was not a kind church. 00:14:03.244 --> 00:14:07.054 and as we know, so many horror stories are unfolding all the time. 00:14:07.474 --> 00:14:10.834 and he stayed a million miles away from organized religion 00:14:11.254 --> 00:14:13.464 and, just was quite a free spirit. 00:14:13.644 --> 00:14:17.364 And most importantly, he absolutely loved his horses. 00:14:18.804 --> 00:14:19.164 Okay. 00:14:19.169 --> 00:14:19.554 Tell us 00:14:19.554 --> 00:14:21.414 Rupert Isaacson: about the relationship with Castle Leslie and 00:14:21.414 --> 00:14:21.954 Sammie Leslie: horses. 00:14:23.094 --> 00:14:26.894 Oh, they've always, you know, since we, rescued Mark Queen of Scott's in 00:14:26.894 --> 00:14:30.374 the 10 hundreds on the back of a horse, which is how we ended up from Hungary 00:14:30.374 --> 00:14:32.634 into Scotland, and eventually here. 00:14:32.634 --> 00:14:32.724 Whoa, 00:14:34.884 --> 00:14:35.814 Rupert Isaacson: say that again. 00:14:35.814 --> 00:14:36.264 Slowly. 00:14:38.439 --> 00:14:41.739 Sammie Leslie: Both me, Leslie came over as a mercenary to bring a young girl 00:14:41.739 --> 00:14:43.779 over to Mary King Malcolm of Scotland. 00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:47.989 her name was Margaret, and at some point he had to rescue her from 00:14:47.989 --> 00:14:49.549 a castle that was being besieged. 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.939 And he made a belt with three buckles, and he threw her on the back of the horse. 00:14:52.944 --> 00:14:56.389 And he shied a grip past the buckle and buggered off cross countryside. 00:14:57.379 --> 00:15:02.079 And when she became queen, she gave us a crest with three buckles, and then granted 00:15:02.079 --> 00:15:06.459 him all the land for a mile around where his horse needed to stop to, to rest. 00:15:07.149 --> 00:15:08.169 And he rode West. 00:15:08.169 --> 00:15:09.879 I think he exhausted five horses. 00:15:10.389 --> 00:15:11.079 And she became, 00:15:11.084 --> 00:15:12.489 Rupert Isaacson: she became Queen of Scotland. 00:15:13.269 --> 00:15:13.539 Yeah. 00:15:13.629 --> 00:15:16.299 But, and then allotted him land in Northern Ireland? 00:15:16.869 --> 00:15:17.859 Sammie Leslie: No, in Scotland. 00:15:17.979 --> 00:15:18.609 In Scotland. 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:19.179 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:15:19.509 --> 00:15:20.309 How did, okay. 00:15:20.314 --> 00:15:20.709 Okay. 00:15:20.709 --> 00:15:21.189 Keep going. 00:15:21.909 --> 00:15:25.449 Sammie Leslie: Well, in those days, and then in the 16 hundreds, one of them 00:15:25.449 --> 00:15:28.839 was a bishop and he was a bit feisty, and they kept moving him, ran the place 00:15:28.839 --> 00:15:32.029 he lived to the grand old age of, it was in his hundredth year when he died. 00:15:32.659 --> 00:15:37.789 And, he got moved over here and he fought Cromwell and then rode 00:15:37.789 --> 00:15:39.199 to the restoration of the king. 00:15:39.649 --> 00:15:43.149 And when, he was offered the Archbishop of Canterbury as, as, 00:15:43.389 --> 00:15:44.799 as a reward, he went, no, no, no. 00:15:45.129 --> 00:15:48.219 There's an old church and a lake in my, the edge of my diocese. 00:15:48.219 --> 00:15:49.389 I just want to settle there. 00:15:49.389 --> 00:15:54.459 So he fell in love in the 1660s with, with here and that incredible 00:15:54.459 --> 00:15:56.109 light over that beautiful lake. 00:15:56.739 --> 00:16:00.429 And, bought the estate of Ridgeways for 2000 pounds. 00:16:01.329 --> 00:16:01.869 That's a lot of money. 00:16:02.589 --> 00:16:02.889 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:16:02.889 --> 00:16:03.729 In those days. 00:16:03.829 --> 00:16:05.149 an unthinkable amount of money. 00:16:05.569 --> 00:16:05.959 okay. 00:16:05.959 --> 00:16:13.919 So you grew up, as a, the child of a hippie commune, run by, an aristo who 00:16:14.709 --> 00:16:19.449 had a mistress who didn't quite mean to get pregnant, but did, and then you came 00:16:19.449 --> 00:16:25.659 along and managed to grow up Ferrell in this amazing place with all this history. 00:16:26.439 --> 00:16:31.299 did you ever imagine you'd end up having to run the show? 00:16:31.599 --> 00:16:36.039 I I, that you must have seen as you grew up, despite it being feral, despite 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:37.929 being able to take ponies and sprinters? 00:16:38.139 --> 00:16:40.029 You must have seen it was a lot of work to run 00:16:40.449 --> 00:16:41.019 Sammie Leslie: a place like that. 00:16:41.769 --> 00:16:42.639 Yeah, absolutely. 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:47.139 So there was this sort of wonderful freedom of being feral around the estate. 00:16:47.139 --> 00:16:49.329 There was the incredible and probably the most amazing 00:16:49.329 --> 00:16:50.769 privilege of the kitchen table. 00:16:50.769 --> 00:16:53.889 And, you know, we were encouraged to sit and talk and ask questions 00:16:53.889 --> 00:16:54.879 to anybody that was there. 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.969 And the kitchen table was always this amazing mix of 00:16:58.029 --> 00:16:59.859 people from all walks of life. 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:01.739 and what was the question? 00:17:03.129 --> 00:17:03.309 The 00:17:03.309 --> 00:17:06.579 Rupert Isaacson: question was, did you ever, as you were a kid, imagine that 00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:11.559 you would end up running the place and did you have a sense of, as a kid, 00:17:11.919 --> 00:17:13.269 just the sheer amount of effort it 00:17:13.269 --> 00:17:14.439 Sammie Leslie: takes to run a place like that? 00:17:14.979 --> 00:17:18.819 Well, so, so you know, there was the, the feral childhood, the incredible. 00:17:19.494 --> 00:17:22.374 Privilege, the kitchen table and anybody and everybody that you met. 00:17:22.374 --> 00:17:25.944 And, you were allowed to ask questions and, you know, to ask people about 00:17:26.094 --> 00:17:28.434 different religions and view viewpoints. 00:17:29.784 --> 00:17:34.824 And on the outside, you know, while inside the house was very open-minded, outside 00:17:34.829 --> 00:17:36.684 the troubles were picking up speed. 00:17:37.644 --> 00:17:37.934 Okay. 00:17:38.064 --> 00:17:40.674 And that other sort of 30 something years. 00:17:40.974 --> 00:17:44.994 So no, I just always loved the place and wanted to do it, but, and nobody 00:17:44.994 --> 00:17:47.544 else really seemed that interested. 00:17:47.724 --> 00:17:50.424 I mean, there's interest, but there's rolling up your sleeves 00:17:50.424 --> 00:17:51.954 and doing the four letter word. 00:17:51.954 --> 00:17:54.414 But now tell us, tell us about the 00:17:54.419 --> 00:17:54.954 Rupert Isaacson: troubles. 00:17:55.314 --> 00:17:58.244 So not everyone who's listening to this, knows what the troubles were. 00:17:58.544 --> 00:18:02.884 We, we did interview over on our, equine assisted world, podcast, , Terry 00:18:02.884 --> 00:18:05.134 Brosnan, who also grew up in the Troubles. 00:18:05.134 --> 00:18:05.224 Yes. 00:18:05.584 --> 00:18:07.084 tell us about the troubles. 00:18:07.084 --> 00:18:09.874 What were the troubles and how did they affect your 00:18:09.874 --> 00:18:10.234 Sammie Leslie: place? 00:18:10.834 --> 00:18:14.254 It started out as, as civil rights and because it was a 00:18:14.254 --> 00:18:16.624 very, a very unfair society. 00:18:16.624 --> 00:18:22.144 You know, Catholics were second right citizens, and it was very unbalanced. 00:18:22.434 --> 00:18:29.154 and then it grew legs and violence became the normal way of dealing with things. 00:18:29.154 --> 00:18:33.894 And, you know, and tit fort and became very divisive and, and divided 00:18:33.894 --> 00:18:38.634 people in communities and, you know, rage for about 30 something 00:18:38.634 --> 00:18:40.764 years with the loss of about three. 00:18:43.344 --> 00:18:46.464 You know, probably 10, 20 times of that pupil. 00:18:46.464 --> 00:18:48.234 Seriously, androgen, traumatized. 00:18:49.404 --> 00:18:49.734 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:18:49.734 --> 00:18:53.124 So you, you were, you were living growing up in this beautiful 00:18:53.124 --> 00:18:57.384 place, but right on the border of Northern and Southern Ireland there. 00:18:57.894 --> 00:19:03.024 How did the troubles, the Protestant Catholic troubles seep into that magical 00:19:03.024 --> 00:19:03.414 Sammie Leslie: world? 00:19:04.494 --> 00:19:07.974 Your, it was very funny cause I, you know, I'm from a family of eight faith 00:19:07.974 --> 00:19:11.644 and probably as many nationalities, there's still a few question marks. 00:19:11.894 --> 00:19:16.614 so we grew up in a world that was very open and eclectic and, and you 00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:18.564 know, multi-faced, multiracial. 00:19:19.044 --> 00:19:22.794 And then you walked out the door and you went, are they gonna like me cuz 00:19:22.794 --> 00:19:25.734 they think I'm Catholic and hate me cuz they think I'm English Protestant or 00:19:25.739 --> 00:19:28.704 are they're gonna love me because of the Churchill Wellington connection and 00:19:28.704 --> 00:19:31.884 they think I'm English Protestant and hate me cuz they think I'm Catholic. 00:19:32.284 --> 00:19:33.784 in fact, I'm neither of the above. 00:19:34.094 --> 00:19:37.874 so you're always doing this dance trying to figure out you to be 00:19:37.874 --> 00:19:40.754 incredibly careful about what you said to who and cuz somebody would 00:19:40.754 --> 00:19:42.794 pigeonhole you in one side or the other. 00:19:43.244 --> 00:19:46.064 so it was a, it was a, it was an interesting time. 00:19:48.494 --> 00:19:48.704 Yeah. 00:19:48.794 --> 00:19:49.244 Bias. 00:19:49.244 --> 00:19:51.374 Did, did, did violence creep onto the estate itself? 00:19:52.124 --> 00:19:52.964 not really. 00:19:52.964 --> 00:19:54.194 We were very lucky. 00:19:54.194 --> 00:19:57.344 I mean, there were definitely neighbors where, you know, there 00:19:57.344 --> 00:20:01.784 were horrendous murders and houses burned and bombs and, yeah. 00:20:03.674 --> 00:20:04.844 Very unpleasant things. 00:20:04.844 --> 00:20:05.054 But 00:20:05.574 --> 00:20:07.604 Rupert Isaacson: what do you think, what do you think made. 00:20:08.114 --> 00:20:09.974 Castle, Leslie Haven. 00:20:10.064 --> 00:20:11.474 Why didn't the trouble spill 00:20:11.534 --> 00:20:12.194 Sammie Leslie: onto the estate? 00:20:12.724 --> 00:20:16.574 I think cuz over the generations, they've just, they've always matter. 00:20:16.884 --> 00:20:21.474 A, a really interesting, women over the years, you know, not the dominion 00:20:21.474 --> 00:20:26.424 of long eggs, but long legs, fresh eggs, need ply, you know, breeding machines. 00:20:26.994 --> 00:20:32.844 so Christina Leslie was a widow in 1940 and with children from her husband's 00:20:32.844 --> 00:20:35.064 first marriage and their marriage. 00:20:35.064 --> 00:20:38.514 So I think she had seven or nine children under the age of 16. 00:20:39.084 --> 00:20:42.754 And, she ran the estate and she did an awful lot of good work. 00:20:42.754 --> 00:20:47.284 And she did the best she could in really desperate circumstances, you know, and 00:20:47.284 --> 00:20:51.454 there were desperate landowners and people who just never even came to wineland. 00:20:51.459 --> 00:20:53.559 They had no understanding of, the land. 00:20:53.564 --> 00:20:55.989 They had no understanding of the poverty and the hunger. 00:20:56.369 --> 00:20:58.319 and about a third of the states went bankrupt. 00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:59.909 About a third of the states didn't care. 00:20:59.909 --> 00:21:02.369 And then there was a cohort of them that really wanted to 00:21:02.369 --> 00:21:03.659 try and do the right thing. 00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:06.929 And she was certainly up there with them. 00:21:06.929 --> 00:21:11.309 And we've done a lot of research into, you know, her life and her work. 00:21:11.369 --> 00:21:13.769 And she was an incredible person. 00:21:14.309 --> 00:21:18.149 I mean, this is back to the terrible dangers of monocultures. 00:21:18.629 --> 00:21:20.039 You know, potato was the monoculture. 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.459 It was an incredible food, and potatoes and buttermilk are a perfect protein. 00:21:23.909 --> 00:21:28.019 You know, it was the highest food value per acre of anything grown. 00:21:28.349 --> 00:21:31.259 It made a lot of sense in so many ways, but monoculture 00:21:31.259 --> 00:21:32.549 leaves you very vulnerable. 00:21:32.879 --> 00:21:34.349 So you are saying if 00:21:34.349 --> 00:21:39.119 Rupert Isaacson: I, if I'm getting my history right, that there was a 00:21:39.124 --> 00:21:44.609 history in the estate of when troubled times happened, like the Irish potato 00:21:44.609 --> 00:21:48.749 famine, the, people of Car Castle Leslie in particular, the women of 00:21:48.749 --> 00:21:55.829 Castle Leslie were seen to have stepped up to help the community did that. 00:21:55.829 --> 00:22:00.659 But that was, you know, a good a hundred years or 120 years before 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:04.919 the troubles, you know, of, of the 1970s to eighties and so on. 00:22:05.019 --> 00:22:10.359 why would the good works of, of a previous generation, several 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:15.129 generations back, matter to the generation fighting and the troubles? 00:22:16.209 --> 00:22:16.539 What, 00:22:17.439 --> 00:22:20.409 Sammie Leslie: because it was recent history in so many ways. 00:22:20.409 --> 00:22:23.739 It, you know, it so changed the country in so many ways. 00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:28.359 Not desperate, loss of life, desperate immigration, awful things 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:30.969 happened in so many different ways. 00:22:31.369 --> 00:22:34.549 so no, it's, it was very recent history in so many ways. 00:22:34.819 --> 00:22:38.959 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so, so, so p people were, were still feeling mm-hmm. 00:22:39.499 --> 00:22:43.939 The potato famine 120 years later and saying, well, because the Leslie 00:22:43.939 --> 00:22:49.069 family did the right thing and fed people, we're not gonna go there 00:22:49.074 --> 00:22:50.929 and burn that house down, basically. 00:22:50.934 --> 00:22:52.159 Is, is that more or less what it was, or 00:22:52.609 --> 00:22:52.959 Sammie Leslie: first? 00:22:52.959 --> 00:22:56.629 Well, the first time houses were burned was the 1920s 00:22:57.199 --> 00:22:58.849 after Ireland got independence. 00:22:59.099 --> 00:23:00.659 so they had a whole space of burning. 00:23:00.659 --> 00:23:02.129 They burned about 400 houses. 00:23:02.129 --> 00:23:02.429 Yeah. 00:23:02.429 --> 00:23:02.609 And. 00:23:03.494 --> 00:23:03.794 Stopped. 00:23:03.794 --> 00:23:05.954 People came to burn it and people were stopped burning it. 00:23:06.494 --> 00:23:08.564 so yeah, it would, it would've been part of it. 00:23:08.564 --> 00:23:10.514 Also, my grandfather had become a Catholic. 00:23:10.514 --> 00:23:14.744 He'd stood for the national seat and dairy and spoke Gail Gory, spoke fluent 00:23:14.744 --> 00:23:16.634 Irish party, Irish Language Commission. 00:23:16.984 --> 00:23:19.354 so, but his first cousin was Winston Churchill. 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:23.824 So you had this real sort of dichotomy of lots of people on different sides. 00:23:24.264 --> 00:23:28.584 so I would hope to think, cause obviously I wasn't around at the time that, you 00:23:28.584 --> 00:23:31.404 know, it's cuz they were reasonable people and tried to do the right thing 00:23:31.734 --> 00:23:36.864 in the 1890s, or sorry, 1790s with a thing called the Act of Union, which was 00:23:36.864 --> 00:23:41.154 trying to get rid of the Irish Parliament because it was becoming too powerful. 00:23:41.154 --> 00:23:42.204 So we did two things. 00:23:42.204 --> 00:23:46.164 We tried to put a bill to parliament that absentee landlords pay higher taxes. 00:23:46.164 --> 00:23:49.644 If they weren't gonna live in Ireland and work their land and be part of it, 00:23:50.064 --> 00:23:51.654 they should make, pay a much higher tax. 00:23:51.659 --> 00:23:54.654 That stayed in Ireland that went down a fart space suit. 00:23:55.074 --> 00:23:58.744 And then in the active union, they were offered, 10,000 pounds in an earldom to 00:23:58.744 --> 00:24:00.364 vote to get rid of the Irish Parliament. 00:24:00.364 --> 00:24:01.624 And they went no stuff it. 00:24:02.184 --> 00:24:06.594 so I think in their own way they've tried to, you know, do the 00:24:06.594 --> 00:24:08.004 right thing by those around them. 00:24:08.494 --> 00:24:11.105 and, and by here it would've been very easy to take. 00:24:11.105 --> 00:24:12.064 And there's, you know, there's a whole. 00:24:12.469 --> 00:24:16.129 Series of a lot of research on what they call the castle ray bribes and who took 00:24:16.134 --> 00:24:21.349 the bribes and, you know, politics at the time was, was, you know, who could, who 00:24:21.349 --> 00:24:23.929 could pay the, who could bribe who, yeah. 00:24:23.929 --> 00:24:24.199 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:24:24.199 --> 00:24:24.439 Yeah. 00:24:24.889 --> 00:24:26.209 That, that was Georgian politics. 00:24:26.209 --> 00:24:30.139 I, I, I don't think much has changed, but, so basically it seems that the 00:24:30.144 --> 00:24:36.469 Leslie family then seems to have had an unusually good relationship 00:24:37.609 --> 00:24:41.839 through massive political upheavals and violence with Yeah, I think 00:24:42.139 --> 00:24:44.059 Sammie Leslie: the local community, yeah. 00:24:44.059 --> 00:24:46.459 I think if you look at the original states that are still here, and there's 00:24:46.459 --> 00:24:51.619 probably only 12 or 15 sort of on this sort of scale, they probably were all 00:24:51.619 --> 00:24:55.729 here because they wanted to do the right thing through, through the generations. 00:24:56.209 --> 00:24:59.689 yeah, I mean, it would, you know, even, you know, the last round, it 00:24:59.694 --> 00:25:03.079 would be easier to sort of sell and bugger off, but that would be, that 00:25:03.139 --> 00:25:04.519 just wouldn't be the right thing to do. 00:25:05.449 --> 00:25:08.629 Rupert Isaacson: So how aware of all that, were you growing up as a, as 00:25:08.629 --> 00:25:12.949 a child in the, did you must have learned, did you learn all this later 00:25:12.949 --> 00:25:16.969 or was all this history imparted to you as part of your feral childhood? 00:25:17.029 --> 00:25:17.539 You sort of, yeah, 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:22.429 Sammie Leslie: it was a real dichotomy and yes. 00:25:22.879 --> 00:25:24.649 You learned, we used to do tourists at the house. 00:25:24.649 --> 00:25:26.479 You got money off tourists if you did it. 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.259 and, but you learned all the history and you learned all the paintings. 00:25:29.259 --> 00:25:33.009 You learned who everybody was and yeah. 00:25:33.014 --> 00:25:35.979 That you we're all just fellow human beings on this planet. 00:25:36.009 --> 00:25:36.299 Yeah. 00:25:39.924 --> 00:25:40.194 Yeah. 00:25:40.524 --> 00:25:43.944 All trying to, yeah, no, it, it, 00:25:43.944 --> 00:25:46.494 Rupert Isaacson: it, it's an extraordinary, it's an extraordinary 00:25:46.584 --> 00:25:50.724 corner of the world in so many ways because it's, it's so magical, 00:25:50.729 --> 00:25:52.014 it's so beautiful, it's so wild. 00:25:52.014 --> 00:25:58.524 And at the same time, it's so steeped in the, messiness of the realities of 00:25:58.524 --> 00:26:00.774 what humans get into with each other. 00:26:01.014 --> 00:26:04.824 And yet there, the estate has stood and there it still is. 00:26:05.294 --> 00:26:10.124 something I know about estates is that they generally don't make 00:26:10.124 --> 00:26:12.914 money and often end up getting sold. 00:26:14.804 --> 00:26:17.984 You, your dad was a hippie. 00:26:17.984 --> 00:26:21.224 He had the hippie commune, as you said, the four letter worked 00:26:21.464 --> 00:26:25.034 work bills, that sort of thing, not perhaps the most popular. 00:26:26.294 --> 00:26:29.474 Sammie Leslie: Oh, he, he worked, he paid bills and he tried to keep the roof on. 00:26:29.874 --> 00:26:32.844 but you know, he had, was quite visionary in what he wanted to do was 00:26:32.844 --> 00:26:36.554 an amazing, very beautifully designed sort of hotel that looked like the 00:26:36.614 --> 00:26:40.664 hanging gardens of Babylon and amazing golf course and all of the rest. 00:26:40.664 --> 00:26:44.984 And he had all sorts of bikes and plans down and was sort of heading off down 00:26:44.984 --> 00:26:49.224 that road when, when the travels hit, they were, bulldozing the land for the 00:26:49.224 --> 00:26:51.084 foundations for different buildings. 00:26:52.014 --> 00:26:52.734 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:26:52.734 --> 00:26:55.014 So your dad actually had the idea? 00:26:55.014 --> 00:26:55.104 Yes. 00:26:55.419 --> 00:26:58.599 So you'd get into tourism and then the troubles hit and put the kibosh 00:26:58.599 --> 00:26:58.929 Sammie Leslie: on that. 00:26:59.199 --> 00:26:59.529 Yeah. 00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:00.399 Two things. 00:27:00.459 --> 00:27:04.659 tourism and, nature reserves as they were called in those days. 00:27:04.719 --> 00:27:04.749 Okay. 00:27:04.749 --> 00:27:07.689 Which of course, why do you wanna protect nature? 00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:11.709 There's so much, but there's, it's doesn't really make a difference. 00:27:12.309 --> 00:27:13.209 so yeah. 00:27:13.299 --> 00:27:15.369 So, you know, he had an awful lot of vision. 00:27:15.669 --> 00:27:19.209 I mean, he didn't have the sort of business skills, but, necessary 00:27:19.479 --> 00:27:20.799 that, you know, that we would now. 00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:22.119 But where did you learn them? 00:27:22.149 --> 00:27:22.629 You remember? 00:27:22.629 --> 00:27:23.949 They had no education. 00:27:23.954 --> 00:27:28.299 He had a, a year in university and then after the r a f and got music. 00:27:28.299 --> 00:27:29.349 It was, you know, the world. 00:27:29.409 --> 00:27:34.869 We, the amount of courses and support we have to nurture young businesses 00:27:35.019 --> 00:27:36.579 and entrepreneurs now is fabulous. 00:27:37.389 --> 00:27:41.799 In his day, there was absolutely nothing and everybody was out to try and Felicia. 00:27:43.989 --> 00:27:45.129 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:27:45.134 --> 00:27:49.829 So, so, so he comes up with this vision, he's about to get going on it. 00:27:49.829 --> 00:27:50.229 Mm-hmm. 00:27:50.314 --> 00:27:53.199 He finds backers, then the troubles hit, and now nobody wants 00:27:53.199 --> 00:27:54.339 to go to this part of Ireland. 00:27:54.549 --> 00:27:56.049 Why doesn't the estate go down? 00:27:56.459 --> 00:27:57.839 what keeps it above water? 00:27:58.379 --> 00:27:59.099 Sammie Leslie: Two things. 00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:01.469 selling land, furniture, paintings. 00:28:01.889 --> 00:28:05.859 And also he started a business round, equestrian riding holidays because, 00:28:06.159 --> 00:28:09.849 you know, some of the bravest people are people that ride and especially, 00:28:10.149 --> 00:28:13.899 you know, from Northern Ireland because they're so used to, Being ballsy. 00:28:13.999 --> 00:28:18.089 and we had a lot of Swiss riders as well through a Swiss agent, that 00:28:18.089 --> 00:28:22.169 all, so I grew up with the equestrian center and lots of people coming 00:28:22.169 --> 00:28:26.669 here, to ride horses and because of the beautiful land here, and there's 00:28:26.669 --> 00:28:29.579 this sort of amazing amount of timber and huge amounts of cross country. 00:28:29.979 --> 00:28:31.779 and the days before insurance got silly. 00:28:32.229 --> 00:28:35.049 Lots of people used to come here for, you know, riding and 00:28:35.049 --> 00:28:37.029 hacking and, and cross country. 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:37.839 You know, 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.834 Rupert Isaacson: it's, I I grew up, , in the UK riding and so yeah, 00:28:41.864 --> 00:28:47.364 I remember seeing the adverts for Castle Leslie in the, equestrian 00:28:47.364 --> 00:28:51.264 magazines as a boy and, and, and thinking, oh God, that looks amazing. 00:28:51.264 --> 00:28:51.864 I'd love to go there. 00:28:52.074 --> 00:28:55.944 These sweeping, you know, views and people jumping cross country jumps 00:28:56.304 --> 00:28:59.874 and it just all looking so amazing and so perfect and thinking, oh, 00:29:00.024 --> 00:29:01.194 I'd really like to go there one day. 00:29:01.554 --> 00:29:04.914 And I sort of, it, it had always been kind of in the back of my mind. 00:29:04.914 --> 00:29:05.004 Yeah. 00:29:05.004 --> 00:29:05.574 Castle Leslie. 00:29:06.114 --> 00:29:11.544 And then, so it is amazing to me to end up there, with you last year, , ago actually. 00:29:11.549 --> 00:29:15.084 There's that little boy in me, you know, that was looking at that ad, 00:29:15.114 --> 00:29:20.394 you know, back in the 1980s going, yes, I made it there, as you say. 00:29:20.504 --> 00:29:26.434 , that was before the days of, insurance and liability and people suing 00:29:26.434 --> 00:29:27.784 each other and that sort of thing. 00:29:28.114 --> 00:29:31.924 Taking people for cross country riding holidays isn't exactly 00:29:31.924 --> 00:29:33.424 the safest business bet. 00:29:33.739 --> 00:29:36.779 In the world, cause people are gonna fall off and they are gonna get hurt. 00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:37.889 It's just, there's gravity. 00:29:37.889 --> 00:29:38.909 It's just the nature of the beast. 00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:44.339 your dad started this equestrian center specializing in this, what happened to 00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:48.899 it because it seemed on the outside, very successful to me as a boy, seeing the 00:29:48.899 --> 00:29:51.059 ads, you know, and, and wanting to go. 00:29:51.779 --> 00:29:52.709 Sammie Leslie: Absolutely. 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:54.499 by, , where are we? 00:29:54.919 --> 00:29:55.879 84. 00:29:56.189 --> 00:29:57.354 , I was in England training. 00:29:57.444 --> 00:30:02.844 I got my AI and then got my eye eye in talent and I phoned home to say I got 00:30:02.844 --> 00:30:05.694 my eye at 18, which, was quite young. 00:30:05.784 --> 00:30:09.474 And he said, oh, but I'm really sorry I've had to sell the equestrian center. 00:30:10.014 --> 00:30:12.564 So I thought, well, I will buy that back. 00:30:12.564 --> 00:30:15.084 And it took me 20 years to, to buy it back. 00:30:15.464 --> 00:30:16.934 and they were really gracious about it. 00:30:17.414 --> 00:30:21.074 And then we built the new hotel wrapped rider and the new 00:30:21.074 --> 00:30:22.724 yard that, that you've seen. 00:30:22.724 --> 00:30:26.774 We got some support from our tourist board for the indoor arena and the, and the 00:30:26.774 --> 00:30:31.904 yard, which meant we could build a sort of a four, five star facility that normally 00:30:31.904 --> 00:30:35.924 in those days, only people, you know, in top competition yards managed to get into. 00:30:35.924 --> 00:30:39.374 We just wanted to make a really good yard accessible for everybody. 00:30:40.244 --> 00:30:40.804 Now whether it's 00:30:40.934 --> 00:30:44.204 Rupert Isaacson: you, you, you threw out some acronyms there, which not 00:30:44.204 --> 00:30:45.794 everyone listening will will know. 00:30:45.794 --> 00:30:49.094 So I just want to just for the, the listeners who dunno 00:30:49.874 --> 00:30:51.524 quite what that language meant. 00:30:52.124 --> 00:30:52.454 Okay. 00:30:52.454 --> 00:30:58.674 So, The equestrian professional world in the uk, most people get what's called a 00:30:58.734 --> 00:31:04.174 bhs, British Horse Society AI assistant instructor as a sort of basic, and then 00:31:04.179 --> 00:31:09.304 there's an ii, intermediate instructor and then there's an I instructor and 00:31:09.309 --> 00:31:11.524 there aren't many BHS eyes out there. 00:31:11.524 --> 00:31:13.324 To be a BHS eyes is like a big deal. 00:31:13.594 --> 00:31:17.074 and you got yours at what? 00:31:17.824 --> 00:31:18.034 Sammie Leslie: No. 00:31:18.034 --> 00:31:24.334 Well, I got my AI at 17 and my eye eye at 18 and I wanted my eye by 21 and I 00:31:24.334 --> 00:31:26.044 wanted to be a fellow before I was 30. 00:31:26.504 --> 00:31:29.684 but I had, I came, plans changed. 00:31:29.684 --> 00:31:32.654 I came instead of going to Germany to train at 18, I 00:31:32.654 --> 00:31:34.184 came home and started a yard. 00:31:34.214 --> 00:31:37.814 Cuz I just knew that if I didn't come home and state my claim, 00:31:38.264 --> 00:31:39.824 probably more would've got sold. 00:31:39.914 --> 00:31:44.014 And I didn't want to be in a situation where, I find out about it through 00:31:44.014 --> 00:31:45.844 a phone call after it had happened. 00:31:46.324 --> 00:31:46.954 Rupert Isaacson: So. 00:31:47.014 --> 00:31:47.314 All right. 00:31:47.314 --> 00:31:50.494 So you get your ii which is a, a major deal at 18. 00:31:50.494 --> 00:31:50.824 Yes. 00:31:50.884 --> 00:31:56.014 I I, I remember there was maybe a few I eyes in the part of England that I grew up 00:31:56.014 --> 00:32:01.284 in, and they were all fearsome, ironclad, English horsey women, bellowing 00:32:01.944 --> 00:32:04.104 to each other as Macedon Bellows. 00:32:04.104 --> 00:32:05.454 Toon, exactly. 00:32:05.694 --> 00:32:07.194 Across the Primeval Swamp and Yeah. 00:32:07.494 --> 00:32:10.164 , and they were all, you know, it had taken them into their, into their 00:32:10.164 --> 00:32:11.424 thirties or forties to get there. 00:32:11.429 --> 00:32:13.314 It's obviously it was a major achievement. 00:32:14.064 --> 00:32:14.394 Sammie Leslie: Get that. 00:32:15.534 --> 00:32:15.804 Go ahead. 00:32:15.804 --> 00:32:17.174 Tale is an incredible school. 00:32:18.534 --> 00:32:22.164 I mean, Talend, the Equestrian Center Tale is, is phenomenal. 00:32:22.584 --> 00:32:29.724 So, Talend Talend, so Pam Ands and Molly Siv Wright's Equestrian Center. 00:32:29.784 --> 00:32:34.704 So I was there for four months and you know, it's an amazing bootcamp. 00:32:35.234 --> 00:32:38.204 and they produced incredible riders, one after the other. 00:32:38.724 --> 00:32:43.734 I'm not one of them, so, but, you know, horses were never going be able 00:32:43.734 --> 00:32:47.064 to take, make the sort of money that I needed to put the place back together. 00:32:47.064 --> 00:32:50.124 So it was always horses, hospitality, and heritage. 00:32:51.174 --> 00:32:51.534 What 00:32:51.534 --> 00:32:54.354 Rupert Isaacson: made you feel, I mean, the hospitality industry 00:32:54.384 --> 00:32:58.464 is notoriously, demanding. 00:32:58.844 --> 00:33:00.284 it grinds people down. 00:33:00.624 --> 00:33:04.369 I've had lots of friends who were chefs, hotelier, that sort 00:33:04.369 --> 00:33:05.659 of thing, and it took a toll. 00:33:06.019 --> 00:33:08.839 and, the, the world of horses, the equestrian world, 00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:10.759 similarly, you get bashed up. 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.119 You it, it looks glamorous from the outside, but we know that it's, it's a 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.499 lot of shit shoveling and falling off and getting trodden on and so forth, 00:33:19.499 --> 00:33:21.809 and there's massive financial overheads. 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:30.809 So to come in at 1819 and say, okay, I'm gonna get this equestrian 00:33:30.809 --> 00:33:33.989 center that's just been sold, I. 00:33:36.149 --> 00:33:39.929 How did you, how did you let alone going into hotel man, you know, making a hotel? 00:33:40.379 --> 00:33:41.069 Sammie Leslie: How did you begin? 00:33:41.969 --> 00:33:45.839 Oh, the wonderful thing about Young is being f was young and Fool Hardy. 00:33:46.209 --> 00:33:49.479 , so at 18 there was another stable yard in the back of the estate, which has 00:33:49.479 --> 00:33:51.219 been the sort of working horse yard. 00:33:51.649 --> 00:33:56.149 , the one where the equestrian center was, was the agent's yard for his horses. 00:33:56.479 --> 00:33:59.329 Then there was a second yard for the carriage horses. 00:33:59.669 --> 00:34:02.879 , and then the third yard was the hunters and the working horses. 00:34:03.209 --> 00:34:09.659 So I took the old third yard on the back of the estate and, and, and started there. 00:34:10.009 --> 00:34:12.859 , and I got a grant, , from the County Enterprise Board. 00:34:13.339 --> 00:34:18.829 I didn't actually, I got a, , an ANCO grant for about 1200 quid, , and started 00:34:18.829 --> 00:34:20.389 the yard and worked up from there. 00:34:20.394 --> 00:34:23.089 So how did 00:34:23.094 --> 00:34:24.049 Rupert Isaacson: you find your clientele? 00:34:24.049 --> 00:34:25.999 How did you find your, your stuff? 00:34:26.004 --> 00:34:28.339 How did you, how did you run a team as just a 00:34:28.339 --> 00:34:29.479 Sammie Leslie: kid like that? 00:34:29.479 --> 00:34:33.169 When I, I've been outta school five years, four years at that stage. 00:34:33.169 --> 00:34:36.679 So in my head I wasn't a, I wasn't a kid school at 15. 00:34:37.129 --> 00:34:42.539 , So, , teaching, so teaching was something I'd always loved and, and did quite well. 00:34:42.869 --> 00:34:46.839 And also, flat work and, and schooling and, and breaking horses 00:34:46.844 --> 00:34:47.979 that everybody had marked up. 00:34:48.539 --> 00:34:51.029 , and ended up having some nice horses through. 00:34:51.419 --> 00:34:53.669 And then I sold a horse out to Canada. 00:34:53.779 --> 00:34:56.869 , and at 21 I just knew I needed to get away and travel. 00:34:56.899 --> 00:34:57.889 I always wanted to come home. 00:34:58.379 --> 00:35:03.869 so I went out to Canada after pk, the little bay mayor that went out and 00:35:03.869 --> 00:35:07.619 worked in Canada for a while, and then Virginia and then San Francisco and out 00:35:07.649 --> 00:35:10.949 to Australia and traveled and worked and traveled work for about three years. 00:35:11.879 --> 00:35:12.569 Why wasn't 00:35:12.699 --> 00:35:16.289 Rupert Isaacson: the, lump the, the financially troubled estate sold out 00:35:16.294 --> 00:35:20.099 from under you while you, while you were doing that, how did you, or did you 00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:22.619 take a risk that it might, it might just not have been there to come back to? 00:35:22.619 --> 00:35:22.829 No. 00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:25.649 Sammie Leslie: I knew that I needed to get away and travel. 00:35:25.919 --> 00:35:28.079 I mean, he must have sold something quite well to be able to 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:29.819 survive for a couple more years. 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:33.669 and then, , he actually did sold something that sold. 00:35:33.669 --> 00:35:34.089 Okay. 00:35:34.089 --> 00:35:37.359 And then I got to go to hotel school in Switzerland. 00:35:37.364 --> 00:35:41.079 My sister got to film school and my other sister got to university. 00:35:41.609 --> 00:35:44.549 and then, , back into financial trouble. 00:35:44.549 --> 00:35:49.189 And he got a big offer from a Japanese corporation, , to become, I think their 00:35:49.189 --> 00:35:50.869 cultural liaison center for Europe. 00:35:51.529 --> 00:35:54.964 And I, I shortened my course in Switzerland. 00:35:55.364 --> 00:35:56.474 so I doubled my hours. 00:35:56.534 --> 00:35:58.844 I was doing 60 hours a week study. 00:35:58.844 --> 00:36:04.564 And then, I remember I was down in the FR fridges downstairs and, I 00:36:04.564 --> 00:36:05.584 can't remember what I was getting. 00:36:05.584 --> 00:36:07.894 And the phone call came in and he said, are you coming home? 00:36:08.004 --> 00:36:09.544 And I said, just give me six months. 00:36:09.544 --> 00:36:12.094 This was November, December, or maybe January. 00:36:12.094 --> 00:36:14.644 I said, just gimme six months to December and I'll be home. 00:36:15.094 --> 00:36:16.474 And I came home when I was 24. 00:36:17.284 --> 00:36:17.504 Ok. 00:36:17.734 --> 00:36:18.094 Ancient. 00:36:18.334 --> 00:36:18.724 I work. 00:36:19.504 --> 00:36:21.034 Rupert Isaacson: And you got Yeah. 00:36:21.034 --> 00:36:21.334 Really? 00:36:21.334 --> 00:36:23.404 In, in, in the old days in Ireland, you'd been an old mate. 00:36:23.704 --> 00:36:26.764 what, so did you get, did you get to work alongside your dad? 00:36:27.034 --> 00:36:27.334 no. 00:36:27.334 --> 00:36:30.094 He had pulling it up again and putting, getting 00:36:30.094 --> 00:36:30.844 Sammie Leslie: it back on it feet. 00:36:32.314 --> 00:36:33.124 Not really. 00:36:33.124 --> 00:36:35.734 I mean, dad was 48 when I was born. 00:36:36.889 --> 00:36:39.649 So what age was he at that point? 00:36:39.649 --> 00:36:40.639 I was 24. 00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:42.979 So he was sort of early seventies. 00:36:43.489 --> 00:36:44.959 And am I right? 00:36:45.169 --> 00:36:45.739 Late sixties? 00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:48.329 Rupert Isaacson: you were talking to the wrong person 00:36:48.334 --> 00:36:48.839 Sammie Leslie: for maths. 00:36:48.839 --> 00:36:48.959 Yeah. 00:36:51.449 --> 00:36:52.739 48 60. 00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:52.949 Yeah. 00:36:52.949 --> 00:36:54.989 He was early, early seventies. 00:36:55.409 --> 00:36:58.019 And it was, cause I remember doing his 70th birthday. 00:36:58.469 --> 00:37:03.489 and he also, when he'd smoked, which, if you've got, you know, 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:06.069 weaker lungs is, is not the cleverest. 00:37:06.309 --> 00:37:08.949 He nearly died when we were children from double pneumonia. 00:37:08.949 --> 00:37:11.109 And they, you know, doctor said you'd continue to smoke 00:37:11.109 --> 00:37:12.159 and you've got six months. 00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:14.709 He'd also, you know, always had asthma. 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.614 and then he got em emphysema and he lost about a third of his lung capacity. 00:37:18.884 --> 00:37:20.684 So big damp, cold house. 00:37:20.689 --> 00:37:23.504 I mean, the problem with damper is there's less oxygen in it 00:37:23.504 --> 00:37:25.454 and it's much harder to breathe. 00:37:27.074 --> 00:37:28.874 And he really couldn't cope with winters here. 00:37:28.874 --> 00:37:32.984 So he was around my first winter and in his ski suit, he literally 00:37:32.984 --> 00:37:36.074 got into a Red Sea scoot and lived into, lived in it for the winter. 00:37:36.594 --> 00:37:38.484 your body self cleans after a while. 00:37:38.904 --> 00:37:42.174 And then, he'd come home for a bit in the summers. 00:37:42.684 --> 00:37:46.734 So he died in 2 0 1, so I was 34. 00:37:46.734 --> 00:37:48.834 He'd just been home 10 years at that stage. 00:37:49.394 --> 00:37:50.144 so yeah. 00:37:51.434 --> 00:37:53.624 So you, you found 00:37:53.624 --> 00:37:56.264 Rupert Isaacson: yourself at 24? 00:37:56.264 --> 00:37:57.104 Mm-hmm. 00:37:58.844 --> 00:38:04.544 Saying, okay, I'm going to take this huge lumbering place, which is very 00:38:04.544 --> 00:38:11.744 beautiful, and I'm gonna make a worldclass hotel and question center out it. 00:38:12.944 --> 00:38:13.934 Sammie Leslie: How'd you even begin? 00:38:14.654 --> 00:38:17.864 I was a lovely old saying that the best way to eat an 00:38:17.864 --> 00:38:19.454 elephant is one bite at a time. 00:38:20.634 --> 00:38:21.864 so you just do little bits. 00:38:21.864 --> 00:38:26.784 So I started with horses the first winter, and then I did, t runs. 00:38:26.784 --> 00:38:29.964 I got a grant for 5,000 for the town enterprise board. 00:38:29.964 --> 00:38:32.334 And then I sold my dad's card for the other five grand. 00:38:32.364 --> 00:38:35.634 And then bit by bit, he left a five of us. 00:38:35.634 --> 00:38:39.414 So I got an agreement with the rest of the family, and then I started 00:38:39.414 --> 00:38:42.864 six bedrooms, and then I bought out all the freehold from everybody. 00:38:43.314 --> 00:38:45.954 And then just bit by bit, you just keep picking away. 00:38:46.794 --> 00:38:47.474 That's all you can. 00:38:47.474 --> 00:38:47.834 How did you, how did 00:38:47.834 --> 00:38:48.274 Rupert Isaacson: you find the guests? 00:38:48.294 --> 00:38:49.594 How did you, how'd you find the staff? 00:38:49.594 --> 00:38:50.874 How did you find the team? 00:38:50.879 --> 00:38:51.504 How did you run that? 00:38:51.684 --> 00:38:52.464 You make it sound so 00:38:52.464 --> 00:38:52.674 Sammie Leslie: easy. 00:38:52.674 --> 00:38:53.274 It couldn't have been. 00:38:54.924 --> 00:38:58.974 It's always listen, having children, I wasn't brave enough to do that. 00:38:59.454 --> 00:39:05.094 in all wonderful forms that they, that they come in, and they, there's 00:39:05.094 --> 00:39:08.964 wonderful proof of local, people who came to work from, I mean, 00:39:08.964 --> 00:39:12.974 some of our team were 14 when they started, still in contact with them. 00:39:13.314 --> 00:39:16.154 and they're mothers now, which is wonderful to see. 00:39:16.534 --> 00:39:19.834 and yeah, we remember we were in an area where there weren't an 00:39:19.834 --> 00:39:21.394 awful lot of jobs at that time. 00:39:22.384 --> 00:39:23.374 And just built it up. 00:39:23.634 --> 00:39:25.734 but, you know, I, I don't make it all look wonderful. 00:39:25.734 --> 00:39:30.624 Now I have incredible CEO who's, who's been here 15 years at this point. 00:39:30.954 --> 00:39:35.424 It's his birthday tomorrow, and there's a team of probably 200 on the estates. 00:39:35.424 --> 00:39:38.844 So they're the ones that really make it look fabulous and seamless 00:39:38.844 --> 00:39:40.674 and, and wonderful, not me. 00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:40.974 How, how, how 00:39:40.974 --> 00:39:44.604 Rupert Isaacson: many people were working on the estate when you began to put 00:39:44.604 --> 00:39:44.934 Sammie Leslie: it all together? 00:39:44.984 --> 00:39:49.544 Bridget Earl Housekeeper still lived here, who's been retired twice, but kept 00:39:49.544 --> 00:39:53.504 coming back cause the house was very much her life and I very much understand that. 00:39:54.114 --> 00:39:55.014 who else was here? 00:39:55.074 --> 00:39:59.364 Jack Heini, one of the old foresters was a wonderful character. 00:39:59.734 --> 00:40:03.144 Eugene Dinkin, the old head gardener's son was rounding about Mrs. 00:40:03.324 --> 00:40:03.444 Dinkin. 00:40:03.444 --> 00:40:06.509 His mom was on the back, in the back gate Lodge. 00:40:06.879 --> 00:40:09.579 Harry was retired from, manager. 00:40:09.759 --> 00:40:14.019 He was in one of the gate lodges, the wonderful Gourney clan 00:40:14.019 --> 00:40:15.819 where Jackie started in the yard. 00:40:15.819 --> 00:40:19.479 She's been here since I was 12, very much part parcel. 00:40:19.929 --> 00:40:23.529 and she's in the stewards in the dairy house, and that's theirs. 00:40:23.989 --> 00:40:27.649 so yeah, there were people scattered around the gate lodges and, me. 00:40:28.459 --> 00:40:28.849 Okay. 00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:29.839 And you built it 00:40:29.839 --> 00:40:30.589 Rupert Isaacson: up to 200. 00:40:30.589 --> 00:40:31.069 Incredible. 00:40:31.459 --> 00:40:34.729 I know that you, I know that you battled some, 00:40:34.734 --> 00:40:35.899 Sammie Leslie: oh, it's not me. 00:40:36.469 --> 00:40:37.099 Say that again. 00:40:37.879 --> 00:40:39.229 It's a huge team effort. 00:40:39.229 --> 00:40:40.339 It's not just me. 00:40:40.669 --> 00:40:40.969 Yeah. 00:40:40.969 --> 00:40:41.209 But 00:40:41.209 --> 00:40:43.129 Rupert Isaacson: on I know, I know what you're saying. 00:40:43.129 --> 00:40:45.019 And you're very modest at the same time. 00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:48.289 It's, it's, it's, it's, it's been grown and coaxed and nurtured. 00:40:49.229 --> 00:40:50.674 . So, you, , you pulled 00:40:50.674 --> 00:40:55.804 this estate, this sort of all basically bankrupt estate up by its bootstraps. 00:40:55.804 --> 00:41:01.144 You managed to, at beginning age 24, begin with a hotel and equestrian 00:41:01.144 --> 00:41:02.974 center, which is not an easy thing. 00:41:03.964 --> 00:41:06.064 You mentioned that you left school at 15. 00:41:06.124 --> 00:41:10.324 I know that you, you've, you've talked to me about your struggles with dyslexia. 00:41:10.694 --> 00:41:10.724 Mm. 00:41:11.384 --> 00:41:18.194 Can talk to us about that and, and how did that inform your self perception and your, 00:41:19.104 --> 00:41:21.054 feeling of yourself as an entrepreneur? 00:41:21.144 --> 00:41:21.504 And 00:41:22.434 --> 00:41:24.384 Sammie Leslie: you know, what's really funny is really interesting 00:41:24.384 --> 00:41:28.404 is, you know, I love the now the fact we can talk about neurodiversity and 00:41:28.404 --> 00:41:33.054 that we, the human mind process this information in so many different ways. 00:41:33.054 --> 00:41:37.744 And, and we're starting to, starting to understand some of them, the m 00:41:37.744 --> 00:41:39.384 part of an entrepreneur, cohort. 00:41:39.384 --> 00:41:42.864 And, they were looking at, there's a lot of research being done into sort of 00:41:42.869 --> 00:41:48.174 the percentile, with the people that think differently in whatever the norm 00:41:48.179 --> 00:41:49.464 is supposed to be in the first place. 00:41:49.884 --> 00:41:54.489 But the entrepreneur brain and that sort of, Thinking differently 00:41:54.489 --> 00:41:56.739 is, is is huge correlation. 00:41:57.279 --> 00:42:02.199 You know, I don't, you know, people talk about thinking outside the box. 00:42:03.069 --> 00:42:04.449 I've never found the box. 00:42:05.019 --> 00:42:06.399 I don't know what the box looks like. 00:42:06.404 --> 00:42:10.589 It's just, so when you go through school and you come from a house like this, 00:42:10.979 --> 00:42:13.739 it's not easy because they go here. 00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:16.139 The fact you think you are, you, you know, you're from the big house. 00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:17.339 Do you think you're special? 00:42:17.669 --> 00:42:23.129 You know, Dean Swift, the great writer in the 17 hundreds, complained that our 00:42:23.129 --> 00:42:26.219 house has loads and loads of shelves upon which it many were books written 00:42:26.219 --> 00:42:28.019 by the Leslie's all about themselves. 00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:30.979 you know, and they went on to write notes, 200 books after that. 00:42:30.979 --> 00:42:36.089 So, to come from a very literary family, and not be able to read and write the same 00:42:36.089 --> 00:42:38.719 way everybody else does, wasn't easy. 00:42:38.809 --> 00:42:42.229 And there was, you know, you tried to say your dyslexic and then people just 00:42:42.229 --> 00:42:43.459 said, oh, you thought you were special. 00:42:43.459 --> 00:42:46.999 And so, no, it wasn't, it certainly wasn't the easiest time. 00:42:46.999 --> 00:42:50.479 But then you went home into this wonderful freethinking world 00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:54.469 where anything was possible, and then you just got the ponies. 00:42:54.469 --> 00:42:56.509 And the great thing about horses is they don't read and write 00:42:56.514 --> 00:42:57.499 and they don't speak English. 00:42:57.504 --> 00:43:00.349 And, you know, they see pictor really, and they see shapes and 00:43:00.354 --> 00:43:04.549 textures and ratios and, you know, they think in a, you know, they don't 00:43:04.549 --> 00:43:06.799 need to do the academic bollocks. 00:43:07.539 --> 00:43:12.949 I mean, look at, just watch any, you know, horse going, you know, cross country 00:43:12.949 --> 00:43:17.149 at a high level or dressage at a high level, or show jumping or you know, at 00:43:17.279 --> 00:43:20.389 at barrel racing, any of the, the sports. 00:43:20.389 --> 00:43:22.969 And you go, God, you know, their brain function is incredible. 00:43:22.969 --> 00:43:25.189 Their, because their brain controls their body. 00:43:25.189 --> 00:43:26.389 I mean, they're amazing. 00:43:26.869 --> 00:43:31.969 they process so much information at such high speed and they don't read and 00:43:31.974 --> 00:43:34.639 write and they don't speak English and 00:43:35.029 --> 00:43:35.509 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:43:35.929 --> 00:43:38.389 But they're also not expected to run businesses though, are they? 00:43:38.394 --> 00:43:39.229 I mean, so, so 00:43:39.234 --> 00:43:40.489 Sammie Leslie: no, they do. 00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:44.629 They probably, but no, so I think it was that perception, that 00:43:44.629 --> 00:43:49.649 ridiculous perception of what we understand, intelligence to be, 00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:53.039 you know, there's this, so this whole thing about intelligence 00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:56.939 and you have to be intelligent and intelligence was linked to academia. 00:43:57.569 --> 00:44:01.079 there we're now understanding there is so many different forms of intelligence. 00:44:01.589 --> 00:44:08.249 and I think the absolute hard reached ness of intelligence equaled academia in school 00:44:08.609 --> 00:44:10.439 was very damaging for a lot of kids. 00:44:11.219 --> 00:44:12.389 I could see how, 00:44:12.489 --> 00:44:13.959 Rupert Isaacson: coming back from a school where you've basically been 00:44:13.959 --> 00:44:17.319 told you're stupid, you know, and I remember when I was a boy at school, mm. 00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:22.879 Dyslexia was considered to be, by a lot of teachers stupidity. 00:44:22.884 --> 00:44:25.789 And now we know it's actually sort of part of genius syndrome. 00:44:26.279 --> 00:44:26.699 but. 00:44:27.299 --> 00:44:29.369 Of course it, it wasn't looked at that way. 00:44:29.369 --> 00:44:34.099 And I could see how coming back to this, you know, fairy world, with 00:44:34.099 --> 00:44:38.449 the, with ponies and hippies and amazing, could give you a safe haven. 00:44:38.629 --> 00:44:41.899 But then of course you had to go out and, you know, cope with, 00:44:41.899 --> 00:44:45.139 even with the horse world, sitting exams, doing that sort of thing. 00:44:45.139 --> 00:44:47.419 And then of course you go off to, to Switzerland and 00:44:47.419 --> 00:44:49.199 you go to, catering school. 00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:51.329 how did you, how did you function 00:44:51.689 --> 00:44:52.319 Sammie Leslie: there? 00:44:52.499 --> 00:44:56.249 Well, I think with the equestrian in my day, it was all oral or 00:44:56.249 --> 00:44:57.599 practical, which was great. 00:44:57.599 --> 00:44:58.529 Or teaching. 00:44:58.529 --> 00:45:00.269 And so you didn't have to do the written. 00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:01.739 it was brilliant. 00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:05.549 So even in high level was, I don't think in my day there was any written papers. 00:45:05.989 --> 00:45:10.879 and in hotel management, a lot of, at the beginning was practical, but I learned 00:45:10.879 --> 00:45:15.229 all the work rounds and I learned how to, they didn't mark you on your reading 00:45:15.229 --> 00:45:16.669 and write, you know, your writing skills. 00:45:17.029 --> 00:45:20.659 but I learned how to, to learn as such in the way that was needed. 00:45:21.049 --> 00:45:27.169 And I got a 5.8 average outta six, by year three, which was not bad. 00:45:27.649 --> 00:45:28.999 The language has tripped me up. 00:45:29.569 --> 00:45:34.669 my language has brought my scores down cause I just, what people 00:45:34.669 --> 00:45:38.449 forget is just, I, this is my theory and I'm sticking to it. 00:45:39.799 --> 00:45:43.129 His dyslexics brains are very logical and that they're always 00:45:43.129 --> 00:45:45.289 looking, taking vast amounts of data. 00:45:46.819 --> 00:45:50.599 Most other people don't even see, when they look at something, you know, 00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:55.279 whether it shape, color, texture, size, and they're always trying 00:45:55.279 --> 00:45:58.609 to process it into a form of logic. 00:45:59.359 --> 00:46:04.549 And we, there's so many different logics that you can take outta a series of data. 00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:09.209 as we know from data mining now, is that, that's my theory, that that's 00:46:09.214 --> 00:46:10.409 what we're always trying to do. 00:46:10.829 --> 00:46:16.739 And then that makes the place a sort of a safe and a calm place because 00:46:16.769 --> 00:46:21.869 you can put things in an order that they're supposed to be and you know, 00:46:21.869 --> 00:46:23.249 that the world says they should be. 00:46:23.969 --> 00:46:27.359 And language is no, language is no logic to it. 00:46:27.359 --> 00:46:28.769 It's other than German. 00:46:29.069 --> 00:46:29.339 Right, 00:46:29.339 --> 00:46:29.909 Rupert Isaacson: exactly. 00:46:30.149 --> 00:46:31.679 Which is what I'm struggling with right now. 00:46:32.099 --> 00:46:33.509 but e exactly. 00:46:33.509 --> 00:46:37.209 So you, you go off to Switzerland, , dyslexic and then you're expected 00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:41.169 to do stuff in other languages and you're juxtaposing letters and so on. 00:46:41.169 --> 00:46:43.959 Cause you're taking in all this information and yet you achieved 00:46:43.959 --> 00:46:45.309 this high grade point average. 00:46:45.739 --> 00:46:46.249 how, 00:46:47.909 --> 00:46:51.959 Sammie Leslie: I just studied, I mean we had 48 hours of lectures and practical a 00:46:51.964 --> 00:46:55.979 week and then I doubled my course and did 60 and then, in a start, eight in the 00:46:55.984 --> 00:46:57.359 morning and then two hour lunch break. 00:46:57.359 --> 00:47:00.839 But I did library for lunch and you know, took a sandwich in and studied. 00:47:00.844 --> 00:47:01.829 You just work. 00:47:02.819 --> 00:47:05.609 And then I'd work till sort of six o'clock in a Saturday night or eight 00:47:05.609 --> 00:47:08.919 o'clock in a Saturday night, go out for dinner, go clubbing, sleep or 00:47:08.919 --> 00:47:10.449 ski the next day and start again. 00:47:10.454 --> 00:47:14.769 So, you know, you were doing 80, a hundred hours a week, between classes and study, 00:47:14.769 --> 00:47:16.509 but that's, but that's what it took. 00:47:16.509 --> 00:47:19.839 I mean, that's what, what you'd do in horses and that's what you do 00:47:19.839 --> 00:47:21.249 in hospitality in the early days. 00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:21.969 Rupert Isaacson: Sure. 00:47:22.279 --> 00:47:26.479 at what point did you find though, that the dyslexia was no longer 00:47:27.229 --> 00:47:28.639 tripping you up in any way? 00:47:28.769 --> 00:47:29.879 was not impeding you? 00:47:29.909 --> 00:47:33.539 Was there a, a point where you were like, actually it's just not even an issue. 00:47:33.544 --> 00:47:38.009 I've been told this is, or or was it a slow thing was more 00:47:38.309 --> 00:47:38.599 Sammie Leslie: No, no. 00:47:38.849 --> 00:47:39.449 Oh, definitely. 00:47:39.449 --> 00:47:39.959 It's always there. 00:47:39.959 --> 00:47:40.949 You learn work rounds. 00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:44.129 I mean, I've got my own email language and my own written language. 00:47:44.129 --> 00:47:46.139 Everybody on my team knows that. 00:47:46.589 --> 00:47:49.499 because I read by shape, recognition and placement of word. 00:47:49.799 --> 00:47:54.329 And if you don't give me the context at the beginning of a document Yeah. 00:47:54.329 --> 00:47:55.859 Can get me. 00:47:56.009 --> 00:48:00.089 So once there's context, then say it says cat at the top of a 00:48:00.089 --> 00:48:04.569 document, you know, all those shapes are going to be related to cat. 00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:09.389 So then your brain recognizes all, all of the words and that relate to cat or 00:48:09.389 --> 00:48:13.169 what a cat might get up to, and therefore it figures out the shapes of the words. 00:48:13.169 --> 00:48:16.739 And then it puts them in so they, you know, there you can see words 00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:19.889 that are similar shapes, there could be lots of things, but I 00:48:19.889 --> 00:48:20.929 know they're related to cats. 00:48:20.969 --> 00:48:23.099 So it could be only one of 20 words. 00:48:24.089 --> 00:48:27.779 And I know the context, so I'll work out what's actually on the paper. 00:48:29.249 --> 00:48:33.089 So, no, we, we don't read by letters on a page. 00:48:33.089 --> 00:48:34.949 I mean, how ridiculous would that be? 00:48:35.459 --> 00:48:36.059 Seriously? 00:48:37.089 --> 00:48:37.939 Rupert Isaacson: unimaginative. 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:38.459 Indeed. 00:48:39.529 --> 00:48:40.369 what about numbers? 00:48:40.419 --> 00:48:42.829 did your dyslexia, go to numbers as well? 00:48:42.829 --> 00:48:42.919 And, and 00:48:43.509 --> 00:48:43.729 Sammie Leslie: No. 00:48:43.729 --> 00:48:46.729 Cause I learned, I learned early on that numbers are ratios. 00:48:46.759 --> 00:48:49.159 There's 10, you know, one to 10, one to 12. 00:48:49.489 --> 00:48:52.099 After that everything is a ratio within that. 00:48:52.249 --> 00:48:52.279 Mm. 00:48:52.699 --> 00:48:56.879 So, you learn all the ways of quick multiplication and division and all 00:48:56.879 --> 00:48:59.729 the rest, which of course you lose once you start using calculators. 00:49:00.129 --> 00:49:01.689 but numbers are highly logical. 00:49:02.439 --> 00:49:02.739 Okay. 00:49:03.429 --> 00:49:05.589 Two plus two will always be four. 00:49:06.409 --> 00:49:10.059 Depends on your accountant, but yeah, depends on your accountant. 00:49:10.539 --> 00:49:10.899 I have. 00:49:10.899 --> 00:49:11.469 And two. 00:49:11.469 --> 00:49:16.269 And two and two could be 22, but two letters beside each other 00:49:16.329 --> 00:49:17.499 could be a whole load of things. 00:49:17.769 --> 00:49:18.159 Right. 00:49:19.149 --> 00:49:23.139 Rupert Isaacson: Do you find, or did you find then the same difficulty in 00:49:23.949 --> 00:49:30.099 reading and understanding nuance, emotion, sarcasm, that sort of thing with you? 00:49:30.249 --> 00:49:30.969 Or is that never a 00:49:30.974 --> 00:49:31.389 Sammie Leslie: problem? 00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:32.349 Oh, absolutely. 00:49:32.354 --> 00:49:33.339 It depends on the writer. 00:49:33.759 --> 00:49:36.759 I've just finished reading Ben Goldsmith. 00:49:37.059 --> 00:49:41.799 God is an Octopus and it is one of the most magical supplying 00:49:41.799 --> 00:49:43.719 books I think I've ever read. 00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:49.209 Because of his ability to portray incredibly complex situations like 00:49:49.209 --> 00:49:51.219 the death of his very fabulous and. 00:49:51.924 --> 00:49:58.284 Wonderful daughter at 15 in a farm accident to his, going through the 00:49:58.284 --> 00:50:03.684 desperate grief and really falling in love with an understanding 00:50:03.684 --> 00:50:06.024 nature and, and rewilding. 00:50:06.024 --> 00:50:09.154 And he ended up, you know, in Deborah, the department of, food and Agriculture 00:50:09.154 --> 00:50:11.254 in, in the UK for five years. 00:50:11.704 --> 00:50:18.394 But because his English is so low, I don't know, it's just so easy to read. 00:50:18.394 --> 00:50:20.434 So you really get the highs and the lows. 00:50:21.104 --> 00:50:24.554 there are other writers that try and write simple stories, but use 00:50:25.124 --> 00:50:30.134 complicated English, and you're sitting there going, why is that word there? 00:50:30.134 --> 00:50:31.124 What does that mean? 00:50:31.154 --> 00:50:31.394 You know? 00:50:31.394 --> 00:50:36.464 And, and the words just, I I I don't understand their flow of English. 00:50:36.974 --> 00:50:41.424 So, God give me, I would, I think I just pull my tail toenails out if you ask 00:50:41.424 --> 00:50:44.094 me to read Shakespeare or old English. 00:50:44.664 --> 00:50:48.584 yeah, I love his works and it play because you can figure out what they're 00:50:48.584 --> 00:50:51.824 trying to say because of the body language and the setting and the costume 00:50:51.829 --> 00:50:56.454 and, there's lots of other ways to read the emotion within a play that 00:50:56.454 --> 00:50:59.094 you just can't read in a, in a book. 00:51:00.314 --> 00:51:00.984 And that's 00:51:00.984 --> 00:51:03.174 Rupert Isaacson: interesting because I know, I know you to be a reader. 00:51:03.594 --> 00:51:06.204 and yet there you are with dyslexia. 00:51:06.654 --> 00:51:09.054 was there a point where reading kicked in as a pleasure? 00:51:09.654 --> 00:51:12.054 Sammie Leslie: studying veterinary notes for, it was veterinary notes 00:51:12.059 --> 00:51:16.524 for horse owners, write, reading all the, the manuals for anatomy and 00:51:16.524 --> 00:51:17.994 veterinary and stuff for teaching. 00:51:18.414 --> 00:51:19.884 They're all very logical. 00:51:20.094 --> 00:51:22.614 I think, you know, somebody like for me, Patricia Cromwell, the, the 00:51:22.619 --> 00:51:27.324 crime writer again, writes in a, a language that makes sense to me. 00:51:27.324 --> 00:51:31.714 So, but there are other writers, I just cannot get beyond sort of page 00:51:31.714 --> 00:51:36.814 three because I can't make sense of the, the, the order of the, that they 00:51:36.819 --> 00:51:41.044 use words a big words ade marmalade. 00:51:41.044 --> 00:51:41.224 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:51:41.224 --> 00:51:42.784 That's a, that's a, it's a big word. 00:51:43.174 --> 00:51:45.694 It's a word that makes me, it's, it's a, it's word for a cat, isn't it? 00:51:45.784 --> 00:51:46.264 I think that's, yeah. 00:51:46.334 --> 00:51:46.654 Mm-hmm. 00:51:47.154 --> 00:51:47.444 Sammie Leslie: yeah. 00:51:47.534 --> 00:51:49.904 Marad Duke and Marmalade, they're both types of cats. 00:51:50.504 --> 00:51:51.014 Did you, 00:51:51.014 --> 00:51:52.304 Rupert Isaacson: is Marad Duke a a dog? 00:51:52.604 --> 00:51:52.754 Yeah. 00:51:52.844 --> 00:51:53.054 Marad. 00:51:53.084 --> 00:51:54.704 Duke's a a Great Dane, I think, isn't it? 00:51:54.814 --> 00:51:57.364 but maybe a great Dane that eats cats and therefore they taste like marmalade. 00:51:57.914 --> 00:51:58.379 yes, exactly. 00:52:00.549 --> 00:52:05.229 When you were a kid growing up, feral, , in the woods there, were you 00:52:05.229 --> 00:52:07.359 reading then, or did it, did it kick in 00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:07.929 Sammie Leslie: later? 00:52:07.989 --> 00:52:08.299 No, no. 00:52:08.949 --> 00:52:09.849 Later. 00:52:09.969 --> 00:52:10.269 Oh. 00:52:11.289 --> 00:52:12.969 I think it was always, oh God. 00:52:12.974 --> 00:52:16.029 I was always reading books on horse training for the first 00:52:16.029 --> 00:52:16.929 number of years of my life. 00:52:16.929 --> 00:52:19.879 And then, when I was traveling, you probably started 00:52:19.879 --> 00:52:21.979 to read more for pleasure. 00:52:21.984 --> 00:52:22.009 Okay. 00:52:22.379 --> 00:52:26.394 especially a long train journey or somewhere, or sitting in 00:52:26.394 --> 00:52:27.624 a train station or backpack. 00:52:27.654 --> 00:52:30.534 You know, backpacking can be a very slow moving. 00:52:31.854 --> 00:52:34.674 So definitely started to read more there and wanting to read 00:52:34.674 --> 00:52:39.054 books about the country and the culture that I was going to see. 00:52:39.894 --> 00:52:40.104 Right. 00:52:40.104 --> 00:52:43.554 I made the reading shogun before I backpacked around Asia. 00:52:44.214 --> 00:52:44.244 Okay. 00:52:44.294 --> 00:52:46.544 Rupert Isaacson: so it kicked in for you sort of more in your twenties. 00:52:47.054 --> 00:52:48.524 That's the dyslexia side. 00:52:48.554 --> 00:52:53.024 Now, I know that you also battled cancer, and that's a 00:52:53.114 --> 00:52:55.754 difficult thing in any context. 00:52:56.214 --> 00:53:03.674 but when you've got the weight of a large business on you and, the livelihoods 00:53:03.674 --> 00:53:08.634 of lots of people, and the well and, and, and the land because it's, it's not 00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.124 just a business as in people and money. 00:53:11.394 --> 00:53:13.734 You're, you are looking after landscape, you're looking after woodland, 00:53:13.734 --> 00:53:15.564 you're looking after livestock. 00:53:15.564 --> 00:53:17.754 You're, talk us through that. 00:53:19.524 --> 00:53:23.514 Sammie Leslie: Well, I, I've been in and outta hospital since my 20, late twenties 00:53:23.514 --> 00:53:25.574 with, some form of extreme exhaustion. 00:53:26.144 --> 00:53:31.454 And then in my, early forties I did an amazing thing called the Hoffman 00:53:31.454 --> 00:53:36.854 process, which is probably, but for me, definitely it's a sort of week long course 00:53:36.854 --> 00:53:41.204 and you just literally get stuck into understanding how your behavior works 00:53:41.204 --> 00:53:45.284 and the things that you've learned and what serves you and what trips you up 00:53:45.289 --> 00:53:50.774 and, and you know, sort of how your brain makes sense of things that are confusing. 00:53:51.254 --> 00:53:54.284 and I think that helped me let go of a lot of the sort of confusion of, 00:53:54.344 --> 00:53:55.764 you know, the, when I was younger. 00:53:56.224 --> 00:54:00.304 so funny enough, when I got a diagnosis with cancer, breast cancer, I think it 00:54:00.304 --> 00:54:04.514 was also a bit like, cuz I've done so much veterinary, it's just like, well, this 00:54:04.514 --> 00:54:05.774 is just something we need to deal with. 00:54:06.284 --> 00:54:11.924 and it hadn't started to spread, although I found the lump in June, went to the 00:54:11.924 --> 00:54:14.534 doctor 10 days to get an appointment. 00:54:14.594 --> 00:54:19.844 I had a, I had problem with the gro now that was really annoying and 00:54:19.844 --> 00:54:21.914 very painful and something else. 00:54:22.004 --> 00:54:24.194 And I actually forgot to say about the lump. 00:54:24.404 --> 00:54:30.054 And then in November I was, seeing somebody in New York at the time 00:54:30.444 --> 00:54:34.014 and he said, look, we can't, I just, he did, couldn't do the 00:54:34.014 --> 00:54:35.604 long distance bit and other bits. 00:54:35.604 --> 00:54:39.504 And he said, oh, I meant to say, by the way, as he was walking out the 00:54:39.504 --> 00:54:40.864 door, there was a bit of a lump. 00:54:40.864 --> 00:54:42.094 I think maybe you should get it checked. 00:54:42.094 --> 00:54:44.539 And I went, Oh, fuck, that's lump. 00:54:44.539 --> 00:54:48.469 I should have got, I meant to get checked in June and it was quite a bit bigger. 00:54:48.469 --> 00:54:54.344 So, I went home and, I just didn't tell anybody until one person, because 00:54:54.349 --> 00:54:55.694 I can't do all the faffing about it. 00:54:55.699 --> 00:54:59.624 And I went through surgery and came out and 24th of December and ran 00:54:59.624 --> 00:55:03.054 a Christmas drinks party here for a hundred something people, which 00:55:03.054 --> 00:55:06.114 started the annual Christmas drinks PE party for everybody locally. 00:55:06.594 --> 00:55:09.314 And, then a few days later a friend hugged me and burst 00:55:09.314 --> 00:55:10.484 my stitches at a party. 00:55:11.984 --> 00:55:16.074 That was, was, I'm still not trying to tell anybody, but, I 00:55:16.074 --> 00:55:17.304 ended up back in hospital. 00:55:17.514 --> 00:55:18.354 No, it was fine. 00:55:18.354 --> 00:55:22.704 I mean, the, the, the, it's a very guided process, you know, surgery, 00:55:22.704 --> 00:55:27.054 chemo, and radio and, and the different drugs and you come out the other end. 00:55:27.114 --> 00:55:28.764 And I hate to say I loved Wringle. 00:55:29.244 --> 00:55:34.254 I mean, I, I struggle with long hair and I've always got my hair tied 00:55:34.254 --> 00:55:39.324 up and had always very hairy legs and stuff, so somebody said Me too. 00:55:39.324 --> 00:55:39.684 Yeah. 00:55:40.224 --> 00:55:40.734 Yeah. 00:55:40.734 --> 00:55:45.084 But yours are supposed to be, somebody said if you wax your legs the couple 00:55:45.084 --> 00:55:48.984 of days before each chemo session, you'll end up with no leg hair because 00:55:48.989 --> 00:55:50.964 they're, they're too weak to grow back. 00:55:50.964 --> 00:55:52.284 So that, that was an upside. 00:55:52.744 --> 00:55:55.244 but then, a year later I was diagnosed with ms. 00:55:55.794 --> 00:55:58.794 multiple sclerosis and that was a bit more annoying because that's a 00:55:58.799 --> 00:56:02.724 bit more shadow box and you never quite know what tricks it's going to. 00:56:03.144 --> 00:56:03.984 To pull on you. 00:56:04.454 --> 00:56:05.984 so, and, and it's for life. 00:56:06.014 --> 00:56:10.244 I mean, there's no, as yet, there's not no sort of, you know, 00:56:10.244 --> 00:56:13.784 I'm 12 years after breast cancer now, so I don't even think of it. 00:56:14.414 --> 00:56:15.734 MS is a little bit more annoying. 00:56:16.754 --> 00:56:17.144 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:56:17.174 --> 00:56:17.894 So Ms. 00:56:18.004 --> 00:56:18.844 it's in my family. 00:56:19.044 --> 00:56:24.294 and I know the, exhaustion factor as well as the other things. 00:56:24.804 --> 00:56:28.614 And I also know the exhaustion factor of, of, of being an entrepreneur and 00:56:28.619 --> 00:56:34.044 working in hospitality, let alone at the scale that you're doing it there. 00:56:34.524 --> 00:56:36.324 how do you possibly cope? 00:56:37.509 --> 00:56:38.259 I was three. 00:56:39.279 --> 00:56:41.019 Sammie Leslie: I slept for three and a half months last year. 00:56:41.019 --> 00:56:41.949 That worked really well. 00:56:42.279 --> 00:56:44.769 And then I moved my office home to my garden shed. 00:56:44.769 --> 00:56:45.849 Do you like my sky? 00:56:46.059 --> 00:56:46.149 I 00:56:46.149 --> 00:56:46.959 Rupert Isaacson: do like your sky. 00:56:46.964 --> 00:56:47.259 Yes. 00:56:47.259 --> 00:56:49.879 I wish, I wish the, I wish the, listeners could see it. 00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:53.839 There's a sky painted, she's Sammy's sitting in her garden shed, which is her 00:56:53.839 --> 00:56:57.139 office, and she has the sky painted on the ceiling and the painted on the wall. 00:56:57.139 --> 00:56:57.259 It's 00:56:57.259 --> 00:56:57.739 Sammie Leslie: wonderful. 00:56:58.279 --> 00:57:00.979 Well, it's wall the wall's wallpaper and then the sky. 00:57:01.009 --> 00:57:01.309 Yeah. 00:57:01.309 --> 00:57:02.449 For blue sky thinking. 00:57:02.759 --> 00:57:06.549 so you do, yeah, I moved home, my office home, which is great. 00:57:06.749 --> 00:57:10.529 and my kitchen or a garden table became the boardroom during our 00:57:10.529 --> 00:57:12.179 outside boardroom, during covid. 00:57:12.539 --> 00:57:16.919 But I do have to be a little bit careful cause I could go kitchen, office 00:57:16.919 --> 00:57:21.119 garden, kitchen bed, kitchen office for a week and then realize I actually 00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:24.389 haven't left the premises for a week. 00:57:24.839 --> 00:57:27.149 so yeah, but it, it's, it's, it's 00:57:27.149 --> 00:57:28.949 Rupert Isaacson: a flippant thing to say though, to say, well, I 00:57:28.949 --> 00:57:29.969 slept for three and a half months. 00:57:29.974 --> 00:57:33.959 You, you, you and I, Beth know you can't do that because of the demands 00:57:33.959 --> 00:57:36.509 and pressures of, of the job and running everything that has to be run. 00:57:36.869 --> 00:57:38.209 Sammie Leslie: How do you No, I didn't, Amanda. 00:57:38.339 --> 00:57:38.909 I did. 00:57:38.909 --> 00:57:39.729 And there was no, 00:57:40.259 --> 00:57:42.329 Rupert Isaacson: how how did you manage to achieve that though? 00:57:42.439 --> 00:57:45.349 given, and there must be listeners who are battling with this right now. 00:57:45.859 --> 00:57:48.499 Sammie Leslie: No, I, I've got, I've, I have an amazing team and they've 00:57:48.499 --> 00:57:52.469 really got my back and I have an amazing person who helps me, in my house. 00:57:52.469 --> 00:57:54.299 And, and you know, they must have 00:57:54.299 --> 00:57:55.589 Rupert Isaacson: needed decisions from you. 00:57:55.589 --> 00:57:56.639 They must have needed. 00:57:57.209 --> 00:57:57.509 Really? 00:57:58.109 --> 00:58:00.179 Sammie Leslie: No, it could run at that point. 00:58:00.449 --> 00:58:01.379 Very rarely. 00:58:01.379 --> 00:58:02.789 It wasn't three and a half months in a row. 00:58:02.789 --> 00:58:05.039 It was, you know, a day here, a week there. 00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:05.129 Right. 00:58:05.319 --> 00:58:06.789 you know, it was, it was in and out. 00:58:07.589 --> 00:58:10.739 and they kind of also tend to know when I'm getting a bit wobbly. 00:58:10.744 --> 00:58:13.209 So, you know, the, those sort of front load stuff. 00:58:13.359 --> 00:58:14.559 So yeah. 00:58:14.559 --> 00:58:17.259 Even yesterday I was on the computer and my eyesight shattered. 00:58:17.264 --> 00:58:19.869 So it's like a clear kaleidoscope and everything moves around the place. 00:58:20.199 --> 00:58:21.189 Mm mm Right. 00:58:21.379 --> 00:58:21.739 I can't. 00:58:21.739 --> 00:58:22.059 I can't. 00:58:22.059 --> 00:58:26.979 And I was, I was, I was proofreading a, a, a spreadsheet of figures. 00:58:27.159 --> 00:58:31.629 I was like, this just isn't working, cuz they're all moving all over the place, so 00:58:32.169 --> 00:58:33.759 just go to bed and I got it done today. 00:58:33.879 --> 00:58:35.109 So, yeah. 00:58:35.469 --> 00:58:36.309 What would you say, I 00:58:36.309 --> 00:58:40.819 Rupert Isaacson: mean there, there, there will be listeners, who are facing cancer, 00:58:40.909 --> 00:58:44.089 MS and other, fairly serious challenges who are trying to keep businesses, 00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:46.129 jobs, families, and so on together. 00:58:46.699 --> 00:58:50.389 as someone who's made go of that, what's, what are your 00:58:50.389 --> 00:58:50.989 Sammie Leslie: tips? 00:58:51.769 --> 00:58:55.489 I think there's all, you know, if, if you've been a half decent 00:58:55.494 --> 00:58:59.989 person in life, I think there's always a lot more people around you 00:58:59.994 --> 00:59:01.729 that want to help than you think. 00:59:02.179 --> 00:59:06.109 And sometimes you need to ask and sometimes you need to let people help. 00:59:06.799 --> 00:59:10.319 sometimes you need to show your vulnerability and just go, you 00:59:10.319 --> 00:59:14.639 know, my team know that if they hear me, my voice goes to certain. 00:59:15.209 --> 00:59:15.559 Level. 00:59:15.564 --> 00:59:15.809 Level. 00:59:15.809 --> 00:59:19.979 And I'm slow and I'm starting to not be able to complete a sentence 00:59:19.979 --> 00:59:21.569 and I'm trying to fight through it. 00:59:22.089 --> 00:59:24.549 because I, you know, you just, you, you do fight through. 00:59:24.549 --> 00:59:25.119 I've got work to do. 00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:26.109 I need to keep going. 00:59:26.469 --> 00:59:29.409 Somebody will quietly say, maybe would, you know, we'd like a cap. 00:59:29.769 --> 00:59:32.469 You need to take a break or fuck off. 00:59:33.489 --> 00:59:34.179 Useless. 00:59:36.819 --> 00:59:41.609 isn't now at some point, you know, and I now start, I just know you, you, 00:59:41.614 --> 00:59:43.609 you can't fight extreme exhaustion. 00:59:43.699 --> 00:59:45.229 You just end up being a cranky cow. 00:59:45.229 --> 00:59:46.789 And I apologize for everybody out there. 00:59:46.789 --> 00:59:50.209 I've ever been ultra cranky too when I'm too tired because I'm a 00:59:50.389 --> 00:59:52.189 thundering bitch when I'm exhausted. 00:59:52.819 --> 00:59:58.789 But it's normally because, you know, to actually be able to, you know, last year 00:59:58.789 --> 01:00:03.319 I had a, a week where it took me five, four days to get from my kitchen as far my 01:00:03.324 --> 01:00:05.119 bedroom to the kitchen for a cup of tea. 01:00:05.839 --> 01:00:09.229 you know, I found a couple of coffee sweets in the bathroom on 01:00:09.229 --> 01:00:12.259 day three, and that was kind of the first thing I'd eaten in three days. 01:00:12.739 --> 01:00:15.679 so that's just, when it hits like that, there's just, 01:00:15.684 --> 01:00:16.609 there's no point in fighting it. 01:00:17.629 --> 01:00:19.319 And you just have to roll up and go to bed. 01:00:19.849 --> 01:00:20.479 I mean, that, that's 01:00:20.479 --> 01:00:22.569 Rupert Isaacson: an interesting thing that you say, ask for help 01:00:22.779 --> 01:00:24.879 and allow your vulnerability to show. 01:00:25.209 --> 01:00:31.129 Because, you know, you, we, we, all of us who grew up in, in our generation, were 01:00:31.129 --> 01:00:34.069 brought up with a stoic, Value system and 01:00:34.069 --> 01:00:34.279 Sammie Leslie: stiff lip 01:00:35.479 --> 01:00:36.139 Rupert Isaacson: in, in it. 01:00:36.809 --> 01:00:38.479 Rich, it's very much stiff upper lip. 01:00:38.529 --> 01:00:39.129 pull your socks up. 01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:44.059 and you know, it, it doesn't come easy to do that. 01:00:44.349 --> 01:00:47.629 and definitely also when we were younger, we would've actually 01:00:47.634 --> 01:00:48.679 been penalized for that. 01:00:48.889 --> 01:00:54.829 at what, and so I think there's a lot of people who'd be listening who like 01:00:54.834 --> 01:00:57.049 us would struggle with asking for help. 01:00:57.319 --> 01:01:06.529 At what point did you manage to sort of give up that rugged individualist thing 01:01:06.534 --> 01:01:08.089 and say, okay, I'm just gonna fuck it. 01:01:08.089 --> 01:01:09.469 I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna 01:01:09.979 --> 01:01:10.189 Sammie Leslie: ask. 01:01:10.699 --> 01:01:14.899 I think, well, with breast cancer I certainly had to back off and, 01:01:14.899 --> 01:01:17.029 and, you know, let my team do more. 01:01:17.029 --> 01:01:19.129 And you know what, they're all way more talented than me and 01:01:19.134 --> 01:01:20.659 much better at the job than I was. 01:01:20.659 --> 01:01:23.059 And you know, they've always shown and grown and it's wonderful. 01:01:23.689 --> 01:01:25.039 it's wonderful to see. 01:01:25.449 --> 01:01:28.929 MS has been a bit more of a struggle, I think, cuz the extreme 01:01:28.929 --> 01:01:30.759 exhaustion is quite insidious. 01:01:31.419 --> 01:01:34.599 And there are times you push through it and you get, and, and it lifts and 01:01:34.599 --> 01:01:36.699 you're like, oh, I can keep going. 01:01:36.699 --> 01:01:40.389 I can get to that meeting, I can get to that party, I can get to the shops, I can. 01:01:41.229 --> 01:01:46.419 And then there's other times there's just absolutely no point whatsoever. 01:01:47.049 --> 01:01:51.959 Just, and then I got a thing called Noro ring that tracks my, sleep and activity 01:01:51.959 --> 01:01:53.549 and heart rate and all of the rest. 01:01:54.119 --> 01:01:59.759 So I can, it starts to tell me when I'm starting to dip, and that's when I go, 01:01:59.789 --> 01:02:02.819 okay, I'm not recovering as I should. 01:02:03.329 --> 01:02:09.209 I, I'm, I've just slept 14 hours and I'm still exhausted, so I 01:02:09.209 --> 01:02:10.349 need to be a bit more careful. 01:02:10.349 --> 01:02:13.439 So certainly being able to, and then you can flick back through, you 01:02:13.439 --> 01:02:16.744 know, the last two or three weeks or last month, or eight weeks and 01:02:16.744 --> 01:02:19.714 you kind of go, yeah, okay, I need to be a bit more sensible here. 01:02:19.714 --> 01:02:23.564 So, wearable technology, the, the, the, the joys of bio. 01:02:23.624 --> 01:02:25.194 What's the, , is it bio electronics? 01:02:25.584 --> 01:02:26.514 Yeah, bio feedback. 01:02:26.634 --> 01:02:32.424 Is it, is it biofeedback where they use electrical pulses to 01:02:32.429 --> 01:02:35.274 measure the chemical reactions that are happening with your Right. 01:02:35.484 --> 01:02:37.214 I remember big words like marmalade. 01:02:38.314 --> 01:02:39.444 That, that, that's it. 01:02:39.614 --> 01:02:45.164 And you know, it's, it's, it's been great in, you know, monitoring and 01:02:45.164 --> 01:02:47.444 times you think, I've got a really good night's sleep and you're 01:02:47.444 --> 01:02:49.304 looking and it goes, no, you didn't. 01:02:50.084 --> 01:02:52.334 And then by lunchtime you're going, no, I didn't. 01:02:52.334 --> 01:02:53.024 Yeah, you're right. 01:02:54.194 --> 01:02:54.914 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 01:02:54.914 --> 01:02:59.174 Do, do, I mean, I, I think that's, there's probably a lot of people 01:02:59.174 --> 01:03:00.434 listening now go, actually, that. 01:03:01.079 --> 01:03:01.619 That's me. 01:03:01.619 --> 01:03:03.329 I often wake up exhausted. 01:03:03.479 --> 01:03:04.709 Why do I wake up exhausted? 01:03:05.219 --> 01:03:05.909 what is going 01:03:06.209 --> 01:03:06.359 Sammie Leslie: when? 01:03:06.359 --> 01:03:10.919 There are great things, there are great things that very unobtrusively measure 01:03:10.919 --> 01:03:14.069 what's happening when you're asleep because we go through this whole cycle 01:03:14.074 --> 01:03:18.389 of different sleep types and, you know, you can get a great night's sleep, but 01:03:18.389 --> 01:03:21.689 your alarm wakes you up in the middle of deep sleep and you feel like, you 01:03:21.689 --> 01:03:24.569 know, being hit in the head by a mallet is just, you've woken up the wrong point 01:03:24.569 --> 01:03:28.889 in your sleep cycle and you know, it tells you when your midpoint is and your 01:03:28.889 --> 01:03:33.089 heart rate and your body rate and your body temperature and oxygen saturations 01:03:33.089 --> 01:03:35.189 and, in a very, very simple way. 01:03:35.194 --> 01:03:38.549 And then you can start to see the sort of patterns and I inject 01:03:38.549 --> 01:03:40.229 with interferon every two weeks. 01:03:40.679 --> 01:03:43.739 And it is interesting to, to watch what it says. 01:03:44.379 --> 01:03:47.619 and you're going, yeah, I feel like I'm been hit by a bus and just 01:03:47.619 --> 01:03:54.369 cause I have been hit by a bus, it's okay to just go, yeah, my body's 01:03:54.369 --> 01:03:55.629 struggling for the next two days. 01:03:57.099 --> 01:03:57.729 Would, would 01:03:57.729 --> 01:04:05.379 Rupert Isaacson: your, would you say that your main, strategy for keeping up with 01:04:05.384 --> 01:04:11.009 work while having MS is, managing sleep, managing exhaustion, managing tiredness, 01:04:11.849 --> 01:04:12.719 Sammie Leslie: managing sleep? 01:04:13.539 --> 01:04:14.709 I do a lot of juicing. 01:04:14.714 --> 01:04:16.739 So, I hate cleaning my juicer. 01:04:17.144 --> 01:04:21.414 So do it probably every two weeks, and then freeze it, which is fantastic, 01:04:22.014 --> 01:04:25.524 and then have to remember to take it outta freezer, but I do most days. 01:04:25.924 --> 01:04:30.364 so just trying to always make sure I, I get, you know, lots of good micronutrients 01:04:30.369 --> 01:04:32.044 and looking after gut health. 01:04:32.704 --> 01:04:34.264 You know, it's a little bit like soil health. 01:04:34.264 --> 01:04:38.164 We're starting to realize how complex it is and, and how important 01:04:38.164 --> 01:04:40.684 it is for, you know, for our body health and our brain health. 01:04:41.404 --> 01:04:41.764 Beyond 01:04:41.764 --> 01:04:44.884 Rupert Isaacson: taking probiotics then, what, what do you do for your gut health? 01:04:45.514 --> 01:04:46.324 What tips have you got 01:04:46.329 --> 01:04:49.409 Sammie Leslie: for the rest of oh, well I've on a new one now that's around 01:04:49.414 --> 01:04:54.749 repairing gut, cuz I've definitely got leaky gut then, you know, it depends. 01:04:54.749 --> 01:05:00.689 It's really good liquid pro, probiotics that are survive getting into your gut, 01:05:00.749 --> 01:05:05.129 lots of fiber because your gut needs it and listening to your body and just 01:05:05.129 --> 01:05:07.049 seeing what foods work and don't work. 01:05:08.339 --> 01:05:11.039 Rupert Isaacson: So what, what foods do you find don't work for you? 01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:15.119 What would, would you say that there's foods that 01:05:15.649 --> 01:05:15.929 Sammie Leslie: I don't. 01:05:16.649 --> 01:05:17.789 Yeah, modern gluten. 01:05:17.799 --> 01:05:23.109 we forget that wheat has been systematically bred for a long time to 01:05:23.109 --> 01:05:25.209 have a higher and higher gluten level. 01:05:25.209 --> 01:05:28.189 The breads, when we baked it in the old days, had a, you 01:05:28.194 --> 01:05:29.869 know, eight to 12 hour proof. 01:05:29.869 --> 01:05:33.439 So, you know, the yeast reacted with the gluten differently and you 01:05:33.439 --> 01:05:34.999 know, actually and stretched it. 01:05:35.539 --> 01:05:38.439 so modern bread, commercial bread's a one hour proof. 01:05:38.949 --> 01:05:40.929 There's an awful lot of chemicals in it. 01:05:40.959 --> 01:05:42.609 The gluten is very high. 01:05:43.029 --> 01:05:46.029 You can often get a gano phosphate sprayed on the, the bread before 01:05:46.029 --> 01:05:50.389 they, because if you do in the small levels, the wheat thinks it's dying. 01:05:50.389 --> 01:05:52.939 So it shoves all of the nutrients up into the grain head. 01:05:52.939 --> 01:05:55.789 So you get a bigger grain head and a, a bigger yield. 01:05:56.279 --> 01:05:57.989 and that's legal in some countries. 01:05:57.989 --> 01:06:01.229 And you don't know where your bread, your breads actually come from. 01:06:01.229 --> 01:06:06.599 So, you know, what was one of the most magical, purest things and 01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:10.769 the most delicious things that man developed over the years, which was 01:06:11.279 --> 01:06:16.529 breads, which was water and yeast and bread and flour and tiny bit of salt. 01:06:16.529 --> 01:06:17.819 Or it mightn't even have yeast. 01:06:17.824 --> 01:06:22.289 I mean, look at all the magical birds around the world and, you know, we've 01:06:22.289 --> 01:06:27.119 turned it into this monster substance that so many additives and things in it. 01:06:27.124 --> 01:06:30.899 And I think for a lot of people, if you've got delicate gut health, whether, 01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:32.819 you know, we just don't digest it. 01:06:32.999 --> 01:06:34.019 I certainly don't digest it. 01:06:34.949 --> 01:06:35.219 It 01:06:35.219 --> 01:06:36.809 Rupert Isaacson: seems to be a growing thing. 01:06:36.809 --> 01:06:39.719 I mean, I live here in Germany and obviously bread is a massive, 01:06:39.719 --> 01:06:40.919 massive part of the culture. 01:06:41.009 --> 01:06:45.299 Breads, cakes, you know, baked goods and brutal people. 01:06:45.359 --> 01:06:45.779 Proud. 01:06:45.779 --> 01:06:50.589 You know, it, it's, part of the national pride and more and more people 01:06:50.594 --> 01:06:51.999 are showing up gluten intolerant. 01:06:51.999 --> 01:06:54.799 And it happened to my wife, and I remember for a while 01:06:55.339 --> 01:06:56.479 we like, can't be, can't be. 01:06:56.479 --> 01:06:58.489 And it's like, oh no, it really looks like it is. 01:06:58.819 --> 01:07:02.629 And then all of the pushback is very interesting from the older 01:07:02.629 --> 01:07:06.139 generation saying, oh, that's just all, you know, hip, hip, 01:07:06.144 --> 01:07:07.339 hippie, bullshit, blah, blah, blah. 01:07:07.549 --> 01:07:11.879 But you see so many people now, who were not, intolerant 01:07:12.149 --> 01:07:13.649 10 years ago, 20 years ago. 01:07:13.859 --> 01:07:18.059 And as you say, it really does seem as though the process of bread making 01:07:18.059 --> 01:07:21.839 has become as effectively turned it into a toxic substance unless you're 01:07:21.839 --> 01:07:23.699 getting, you know, very artisanal, 01:07:24.329 --> 01:07:24.689 Sammie Leslie: you know? 01:07:24.749 --> 01:07:24.899 Yeah. 01:07:24.899 --> 01:07:30.419 So it's, I think it's a balance between gut health and unhealthy bread as such. 01:07:30.659 --> 01:07:34.229 Now I do some work in southern Italy, and, you know, it's locally grown. 01:07:34.229 --> 01:07:35.639 We, it goes down to the mill. 01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:36.869 It's mill that day. 01:07:36.869 --> 01:07:38.309 It's a 12 hour proof. 01:07:38.369 --> 01:07:40.829 It's slow coaching, big old ovens. 01:07:40.829 --> 01:07:44.669 It comes up out, you know, loaf the size of a car wheel, you know, in the 01:07:44.669 --> 01:07:49.649 supermarket you get, you know, you buy a quarter of a loaf or half a loaf and 01:07:49.649 --> 01:07:54.089 it doesn't go off for days, and then you just toast it and it's magical and, you 01:07:54.089 --> 01:07:58.229 know, the bread kind of lasts a week and I don't have, you know, I can eat quite a 01:07:58.229 --> 01:07:59.909 lot of that without getting into trouble. 01:08:00.494 --> 01:08:05.354 Gimme a slice of, you know, white pan toast here and you 01:08:05.354 --> 01:08:06.434 know, I'll be on the floor. 01:08:06.854 --> 01:08:11.684 but this is, it's just getting so hard because, you know, I, I work with 01:08:11.689 --> 01:08:15.914 food and I also work in a, a county that produces a huge amount of food, 01:08:15.919 --> 01:08:18.314 and I'm fascinated by ingredients. 01:08:18.704 --> 01:08:23.024 But even the most simple thing that we made, so in southern Italy, you know, 01:08:23.024 --> 01:08:27.464 you buy the local wine for when you're 52 years in the supermarket, and that's 01:08:27.464 --> 01:08:29.804 the best wine because when they're making it at that price, one, it's 01:08:29.804 --> 01:08:35.024 local, and two, they haven't put any additives in it because they, you know, 01:08:35.294 --> 01:08:36.614 they can't afford to and sell price. 01:08:36.674 --> 01:08:38.474 So for export, right, right. 01:08:38.894 --> 01:08:39.104 Yeah. 01:08:39.104 --> 01:08:39.914 It's not traveling. 01:08:39.914 --> 01:08:43.574 So you can put 16 different substances in wine, in small 01:08:43.574 --> 01:08:45.194 amounts and not put it on the label. 01:08:46.154 --> 01:08:46.364 Ok. 01:08:47.264 --> 01:08:51.674 Wine should be grape juice and yeast. 01:08:54.224 --> 01:08:54.614 Yes. 01:08:54.614 --> 01:08:58.454 Where, and the sulfur is normally burnt off on the top of a big fat to take the 01:08:58.454 --> 01:09:01.814 air out to stop the fermentation process. 01:09:01.904 --> 01:09:04.184 And I, it's so hard. 01:09:04.184 --> 01:09:09.044 I mean, I, yeah, listen, you've got me, you've got me, you've got me on a, on a 01:09:09.044 --> 01:09:14.234 rant, but I just wonder how many people are, are going through all sorts of 01:09:14.234 --> 01:09:18.854 things that they just don't realize that, you know, that's coming from our food. 01:09:18.854 --> 01:09:23.144 And also quite often because our soil is so depleted, a lot of our food doesn't 01:09:23.149 --> 01:09:24.734 really have very much nutrient in it. 01:09:26.114 --> 01:09:26.474 Well, you 01:09:26.474 --> 01:09:29.174 Rupert Isaacson: are in the hospitality business and I've eaten a castle, 01:09:29.204 --> 01:09:31.124 castle, Leslie, and the food's amazing. 01:09:31.354 --> 01:09:34.744 you, you need to, look after your own health for this. 01:09:34.749 --> 01:09:37.904 I know that you take a lot of care, with the food that you serve there, 01:09:37.964 --> 01:09:41.174 and you're, and you're serving, you're serving it in industrial sized quantities. 01:09:41.174 --> 01:09:42.764 I mean, you, you've got a lot of guests. 01:09:42.764 --> 01:09:44.054 You can have hundreds of guests that mm-hmm. 01:09:44.524 --> 01:09:49.024 how do you manage to dance that dance of making sure that all those 01:09:49.024 --> 01:09:50.284 people don't end up eating the 01:09:50.284 --> 01:09:50.974 Sammie Leslie: poisons too? 01:09:52.354 --> 01:09:52.954 We do. 01:09:52.954 --> 01:09:54.484 We do the best we can. 01:09:54.489 --> 01:09:57.754 I mean, there's a lot more we'd like to do, and, you know, there's certain 01:09:57.759 --> 01:10:01.924 things, you know, I would love to find a really good, you know, free 01:10:01.924 --> 01:10:05.884 range producer of pork at scale, but we, you know, we can't find one. 01:10:06.254 --> 01:10:07.244 but it is changing. 01:10:07.244 --> 01:10:08.534 And more and more we do. 01:10:08.534 --> 01:10:11.054 I mean, things like the venison oil just comes off the estate. 01:10:11.084 --> 01:10:14.234 I mean, that's as wild and as healthy as you can get. 01:10:14.294 --> 01:10:19.544 And it's us mimicing nature and doing what nature would've done in taking out, 01:10:19.994 --> 01:10:24.024 you know, the, the old and the weak, that, that nature would've taken out. 01:10:24.544 --> 01:10:27.604 so, you know, that's, that's really healthy meat. 01:10:28.084 --> 01:10:32.464 I mean, if I had a magic wand, but then, you know, I'm an oddity in terms of food. 01:10:32.464 --> 01:10:35.764 Most people eat what they, what tastes fabulous. 01:10:36.444 --> 01:10:38.624 And, you know, our taste buds are designed. 01:10:39.194 --> 01:10:41.484 For, salt because we need it. 01:10:41.754 --> 01:10:43.104 We can only taste five things. 01:10:43.464 --> 01:10:43.554 Mm-hmm. 01:10:43.614 --> 01:10:46.554 Sour and that our taste buds going, oh, don't eat it yet. 01:10:46.584 --> 01:10:48.204 Plant's been very clever and gone. 01:10:48.444 --> 01:10:51.414 No, don't eat us yet because our seeds aren't ready. 01:10:51.804 --> 01:10:55.944 You know, there's a brilliant vocal called botany of desire that that, really 01:10:55.949 --> 01:10:59.484 explains how Mother nature's tricked us into doing what she needed us to 01:10:59.484 --> 01:11:03.864 do, to continue to move seeds around the place when they were ready and 01:11:03.864 --> 01:11:07.524 drop them in other places to continue the species, you know, the, the, the 01:11:07.524 --> 01:11:09.324 advancement of the, of the plant species. 01:11:09.804 --> 01:11:11.304 You know, we think we're in control. 01:11:11.364 --> 01:11:12.144 We're really not. 01:11:12.804 --> 01:11:15.534 So nature has sour to go, don't eat us yet. 01:11:15.564 --> 01:11:16.944 Cause the seeds aren't ready. 01:11:18.144 --> 01:11:23.124 and it's got sweet to go, oh, do eat us now because we are ready. 01:11:23.124 --> 01:11:27.654 So we eat it, we eat the seed, it passes through our gut, we drop it somewhere 01:11:27.659 --> 01:11:31.704 else, you know, nicely wrapped in a little bit of poo as a natural fertilizer. 01:11:31.709 --> 01:11:33.624 And, and all animals do this. 01:11:33.954 --> 01:11:36.804 And that gets, you know, nature gets us to spread the seeds around us. 01:11:37.584 --> 01:11:39.684 And bitter is, please don't eat me. 01:11:39.684 --> 01:11:40.524 I'm poisonous. 01:11:41.074 --> 01:11:43.114 I really don't want you to eat this seed. 01:11:43.564 --> 01:11:46.154 And that bitter poison, our brain's gone. 01:11:46.154 --> 01:11:47.714 No, no, I'm not going to to do that. 01:11:47.714 --> 01:11:48.644 And that's the four things. 01:11:48.674 --> 01:11:54.674 Our brain tongues, taste and umami, which is that, mushroom meat one. 01:11:55.014 --> 01:11:56.844 but apart from that, everything else is smell. 01:11:58.644 --> 01:12:00.444 All our other flavors are smell. 01:12:01.389 --> 01:12:04.989 And our brains, our, we, our brains confuse the two. 01:12:04.989 --> 01:12:08.079 We're so convinced that so much what we taste is what we taste. 01:12:08.889 --> 01:12:10.299 It's not, it's what we smell. 01:12:10.419 --> 01:12:13.749 That's why when you have a cold, you lose your appetite cuz nothing tastes 01:12:14.859 --> 01:12:16.389 food still tastes when you have chemo. 01:12:16.389 --> 01:12:20.199 The two things, you don't lose our lemon for some reason. 01:12:20.199 --> 01:12:24.249 And ginger, they're the two flavors that you can still, 01:12:24.309 --> 01:12:25.839 they're the last flavors to go. 01:12:26.769 --> 01:12:27.089 Interesting. 01:12:28.829 --> 01:12:31.994 Rupert Isaacson: Wonder why that might be interesting that that's, it's 01:12:32.714 --> 01:12:34.754 because they're basically medicinal. 01:12:34.904 --> 01:12:35.354 Do you think? 01:12:35.444 --> 01:12:37.394 Or that's your word? 01:12:37.394 --> 01:12:42.044 Sammie Leslie: I I maybe came as such an unusual, you know, it's such an unnatural 01:12:42.044 --> 01:12:46.874 thing that they're just by chance the last things that, the last things that go. 01:12:47.214 --> 01:12:47.994 but it is, yes. 01:12:47.994 --> 01:12:50.244 One of the chemo tricks definitely with breast cancer, remember all 01:12:50.244 --> 01:12:53.824 chemo drugs are different, but, they're the two, the two flavors 01:12:53.829 --> 01:12:55.594 that you can, the, you can get. 01:12:55.594 --> 01:12:59.644 But the food industry has figured out what's known as the unholy trinity 01:12:59.644 --> 01:13:01.324 was the salt, fat sugar ratio. 01:13:01.684 --> 01:13:05.644 Cuz you would never get salt and fat and sweet, sorry. 01:13:05.714 --> 01:13:10.574 salt sugar and sweet salt, sugar fat together in nature. 01:13:10.574 --> 01:13:13.154 You wouldn't get salt sweet together, salt offy caramel. 01:13:13.424 --> 01:13:13.724 Mm-hmm. 01:13:14.504 --> 01:13:15.104 And you get that. 01:13:17.034 --> 01:13:20.954 And, and there are foods that will hit the bliss point to tomato catchup. 01:13:20.954 --> 01:13:23.114 You put eat te tomato catchup and do a brain scan. 01:13:23.114 --> 01:13:24.494 It hit the, hits the bliss point. 01:13:25.064 --> 01:13:27.914 And so much of our food is designed to hit the bliss point. 01:13:27.919 --> 01:13:29.204 And, and you just want more of it. 01:13:30.149 --> 01:13:34.859 but it's not designed for nutrition and it's not designed for fo soil health, and 01:13:34.859 --> 01:13:36.599 it's not designed for gut, gut health. 01:13:37.769 --> 01:13:39.119 And then we wonder where we've gone wrong. 01:13:39.749 --> 01:13:42.389 Rupert Isaacson: So talk to me about food production and soil health. 01:13:42.389 --> 01:13:46.139 You are, you are actually involved in the production of food there, on the estate. 01:13:46.349 --> 01:13:48.869 what do you guys do on there for 01:13:48.869 --> 01:13:49.199 Sammie Leslie: that? 01:13:50.989 --> 01:13:52.719 Well, of course that keeps soils healthy. 01:13:53.749 --> 01:13:58.019 Oh, well, we're by, we've a whole strategy done to start doing some 01:13:58.019 --> 01:14:02.999 major rewilding regenerative farming and biodiversity friendly gardens. 01:14:02.999 --> 01:14:09.419 So in September, October this year, we have to be able to really step it up, but 01:14:09.419 --> 01:14:14.039 do it in a way that it's monitored so that we can show what's actually happening. 01:14:14.379 --> 01:14:19.869 because, you know, the whole rewilding or, you know, nature regenerative, sorry, 01:14:19.869 --> 01:14:21.399 there's something banging on my roof. 01:14:21.789 --> 01:14:26.409 that, that whole nature led regeneration, is not always that well 01:14:26.769 --> 01:14:31.749 ma measured and monitored to be able to show the, the real impacts of it. 01:14:31.749 --> 01:14:33.879 So yeah, that's what we'd love. 01:14:33.884 --> 01:14:36.189 Rupert Isaacson: What, what are you do, what are you doing to, to, 01:14:36.189 --> 01:14:38.019 to measure what, what, what, okay. 01:14:38.019 --> 01:14:40.809 What, what are you doing to measure and mon monitor it and what sort 01:14:40.809 --> 01:14:42.009 of scale are you doing it on? 01:14:42.939 --> 01:14:45.969 Sammie Leslie: Uh, we hope to do a good few hundred acres. 01:14:47.334 --> 01:14:51.744 There's new technology out, uh, where you can constantly monitor the carbon 01:14:51.744 --> 01:14:55.044 in the soil, both the available carbon and the inherent carbon. 01:14:55.044 --> 01:14:58.224 It's looking at air quality and water quality. 01:14:58.614 --> 01:15:03.324 Um, it's looking at, at, um, the, we've done all our baselines 01:15:03.329 --> 01:15:04.764 on all our different species. 01:15:05.244 --> 01:15:09.684 So to have a look at as its changes what species come back. 01:15:09.684 --> 01:15:14.784 Because about 30% of climate change, they reckon is linked to loss of biodiversity. 01:15:15.504 --> 01:15:19.074 Well, kinda the worst countries in Northern Europe or Ireland and the 01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:21.174 uk in terms of biodiversity loss. 01:15:21.684 --> 01:15:22.424 We've just, that Ireland. 01:15:22.424 --> 01:15:22.784 Why is that? 01:15:23.044 --> 01:15:24.054 Why is that, do you think? 01:15:26.034 --> 01:15:27.564 We didn't notice. 01:15:28.314 --> 01:15:33.354 I mean, I went to Scotland last year to look at a Rewilding project, and 01:15:33.354 --> 01:15:35.664 I find the Highlands so beautiful. 01:15:36.714 --> 01:15:40.044 And I'd known about the clearances, the human clearances, which 01:15:40.049 --> 01:15:42.204 were unbelievably horrendous. 01:15:43.374 --> 01:15:47.334 I didn't realize that they just cut all the trees down and put sheep in. 01:15:47.334 --> 01:15:51.024 So all those wonderful wild Heather Moores, which were wonderful for deer 01:15:51.024 --> 01:15:54.954 stalking for, you know, a handful of the, the, you know, the wealthy elite 01:15:55.464 --> 01:15:57.774 actually just denuded late nature. 01:15:57.774 --> 01:16:00.324 I mean, the salmon population is about to collapse. 01:16:00.354 --> 01:16:03.444 And Scotland, you know, and that's their native. 01:16:04.509 --> 01:16:05.079 Ish. 01:16:05.589 --> 01:16:08.739 You know, it's just getting, we are, we've, as somebody wants. 01:16:08.799 --> 01:16:09.699 Well, two things. 01:16:09.759 --> 01:16:12.339 , somebody said it's a bit like flying a plane and throwing bits out the window 01:16:12.339 --> 01:16:15.729 that you've no idea what they were wondering why suddenly, you know, at some 01:16:15.729 --> 01:16:19.149 point the blank brushes, , and the other one, somebody said the other day, you 01:16:19.149 --> 01:16:24.819 know, even if parasite is clever enough to know not to, to bleed its host dry. 01:16:25.629 --> 01:16:30.789 And in Ireland we wiped out our entire genetic stock of pigs. 01:16:32.469 --> 01:16:35.079 Every small holding in how Ireland had a pig. 01:16:35.619 --> 01:16:39.189 They were just part and parcel pigs are nature's plows. 01:16:39.189 --> 01:16:40.329 They root all the time. 01:16:40.329 --> 01:16:43.149 They're always turning soil over, which allows seed to get in and 01:16:43.449 --> 01:16:45.309 all that natural regeneration. 01:16:45.729 --> 01:16:48.909 And somewhere in the seventies and eighties, because we didn't think 01:16:48.909 --> 01:16:53.079 there were of any value, and we wanted to breed the Dutch, you know, 01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:57.399 the big fat white dutch pigs that are, are produced meat at high speed. 01:16:58.929 --> 01:17:01.449 We wiped that entire species and nobody noticed. 01:17:03.279 --> 01:17:03.579 You know, 01:17:06.909 --> 01:17:08.829 Rupert Isaacson: I mean, cause when you go to Ireland, you look around and go, 01:17:08.829 --> 01:17:11.409 wow, it's beautiful, it's countryside, it's green, it's, it's it's nature. 01:17:11.414 --> 01:17:14.709 There's hedges and woods and birds. 01:17:14.709 --> 01:17:17.889 And you, you don't, you don't go to Ireland and think 01:17:18.219 --> 01:17:19.689 biodiversity loss when you look 01:17:19.689 --> 01:17:20.019 Sammie Leslie: around. 01:17:20.799 --> 01:17:22.389 Huge, horrendous. 01:17:22.719 --> 01:17:26.739 So in our county alone, we, the last 10 years, we've lost 1% of our heteros beer. 01:17:26.979 --> 01:17:31.389 That's 10% of our heteros gone in one decade. 01:17:31.449 --> 01:17:35.379 You know, our air quality is not great with our intensive, 01:17:35.899 --> 01:17:37.249 , with our intense farming. 01:17:37.254 --> 01:17:41.689 We have monoculture grass cuz we've got one species of grass. 01:17:41.689 --> 01:17:45.949 So, you know, you, you our, you know, our b population is, 01:17:46.609 --> 01:17:49.069 you know, on getting critical. 01:17:49.309 --> 01:17:50.689 I mean, it's just thing after thing. 01:17:50.694 --> 01:17:55.549 But cause we look so green and virden, we think we're okay. 01:17:55.549 --> 01:18:01.009 We're not, you know, we're, we're went down to less than 1% native 01:18:01.009 --> 01:18:05.589 woodland in this country, , in the fifties in this, because we just 01:18:05.589 --> 01:18:08.319 cut down all of our native woodland. 01:18:08.349 --> 01:18:10.899 Anything that we had just got chopped up and burnt. 01:18:10.899 --> 01:18:15.519 We put a, we wanted to put a tax on standing timber, native standing timber. 01:18:15.519 --> 01:18:19.539 My dad was part of the campaign to go, this is ridiculous. 01:18:20.109 --> 01:18:21.669 You know, we need our trees. 01:18:22.119 --> 01:18:26.589 And then we plant 7% of our island with Norway and Sitka, which is a, not 01:18:26.589 --> 01:18:28.959 an a non-native commercial forestry. 01:18:29.979 --> 01:18:35.769 And just because it looks beautiful, it doesn't mean it's, it's biodiverse rich. 01:18:36.549 --> 01:18:36.669 Yeah. 01:18:37.259 --> 01:18:41.799 And we reckon, I mean, the world, oh, there's so many statistic globally that 01:18:41.799 --> 01:18:47.319 we probably only have between 50 and 60 years of crops left because we've. 01:18:47.739 --> 01:18:52.449 When we started to manage to, , harvest nitrogen into a stable form to be 01:18:52.449 --> 01:18:56.469 able to sell us nit nitrogen based fertilizer, it's too toxic for 01:18:56.469 --> 01:18:58.929 our soil and it's killing all the mycelium, and it's killing all the 01:18:58.934 --> 01:19:01.419 living, , microbiology in the soil. 01:19:01.839 --> 01:19:03.669 So slowly all our soil is dying. 01:19:04.209 --> 01:19:05.349 And that's 01:19:05.349 --> 01:19:07.239 Rupert Isaacson: an interesting connection, which I, I haven't 01:19:07.299 --> 01:19:09.309 heard put so directly before. 01:19:09.309 --> 01:19:11.589 It's, I just wanna back up there for some of the listeners. 01:19:11.979 --> 01:19:15.879 So what we hear a lot about depleted soil health, and we hear a lot about, 01:19:16.819 --> 01:19:21.084 , loss of fertility, but it tends to get said rather than explained. 01:19:21.804 --> 01:19:22.594 That's very interesting. 01:19:22.594 --> 01:19:26.064 I hadn't heard anyone before now 01:19:26.574 --> 01:19:28.944 Sammie Leslie: just used, there's an amazing iron company called Super 01:19:28.949 --> 01:19:32.454 Soil, and they've got a great video that that sort of sh that explains it. 01:19:32.454 --> 01:19:36.774 So I've cogged it, I, I've cogged some of it from, from their video. 01:19:37.014 --> 01:19:41.004 But basically over every acre of land, there's about 30 01:19:41.004 --> 01:19:42.594 tons of nitrogen in the air. 01:19:43.104 --> 01:19:47.754 And all the microflora and microbiology, sorry, in the soil would draw 01:19:47.754 --> 01:19:52.554 that down and feed it to the plant roots, and that kills the mycelium. 01:19:53.334 --> 01:19:55.404 And then you've got the no, well, then you have this, no, in 01:19:55.404 --> 01:19:56.544 nature, that's what it would do. 01:19:56.544 --> 01:20:00.324 And this, you have this amazing web underneath of mycelium, which kind 01:20:00.324 --> 01:20:03.144 of, they call it the wood wide wire, but you know, it was sort of nature's 01:20:03.534 --> 01:20:06.574 highly intelligent system that it knew where to move water and where 01:20:06.574 --> 01:20:08.724 to move nutrients around the soil. 01:20:09.324 --> 01:20:14.004 Um, but the, the, the microflora would pull the ox, the nitrogen, 01:20:14.009 --> 01:20:15.444 basically outta the air. 01:20:15.864 --> 01:20:19.704 So a scientist, I think Uber realized how this worked and they went, oh my 01:20:19.704 --> 01:20:25.014 God, if we can capture nitrogen and put it in a stable form and put it into bags 01:20:25.014 --> 01:20:29.784 that we can sell to farmers, they can up the nitrogen value in their soil, 01:20:30.084 --> 01:20:33.594 which you do, but it's quite harsh. 01:20:33.984 --> 01:20:39.264 So it slowly kills the natural process within the soil, and you become reliant 01:20:39.264 --> 01:20:44.574 on constantly putting in nitrogen that then starts to deplete the soil further. 01:20:45.064 --> 01:20:48.364 , so an Irish companies come up with an amazing product called Super Soil, 01:20:48.634 --> 01:20:51.604 which feeds a micro, a micro flora. 01:20:52.204 --> 01:20:57.724 I've got microorganisms to then start to naturally draw down the 01:20:57.784 --> 01:21:00.124 nitrogen out of the soil, almost 01:21:00.394 --> 01:21:02.284 Rupert Isaacson: treat treating the soil like the gut, like almost 01:21:02.284 --> 01:21:03.754 like, probiotics in the gut. 01:21:03.754 --> 01:21:05.554 Yeah, microorganisms 01:21:05.554 --> 01:21:06.124 Sammie Leslie: for the soil. 01:21:06.964 --> 01:21:07.234 Yeah. 01:21:07.264 --> 01:21:10.624 I mean, you look at the number of microorganisms that we have in on 01:21:10.624 --> 01:21:14.314 our body and in our gut, and it's, you know, it's in the thousands, 01:21:15.664 --> 01:21:19.324 half of which we have no idea of what they're and what they actually do. 01:21:20.119 --> 01:21:21.439 And it's the same with our soil. 01:21:21.619 --> 01:21:25.099 So these, a lot of money outta selling nitrogen, right? 01:21:25.159 --> 01:21:25.369 The 01:21:25.849 --> 01:21:28.559 Rupert Isaacson: now these, these regenerative, farming, practices that 01:21:28.559 --> 01:21:31.769 you're starting to do on the estate and for food production and so on. 01:21:31.769 --> 01:21:35.639 And, taking that into the commercial side cuz you're obviously feeding it 01:21:35.644 --> 01:21:39.029 to people in the restaurants, as many restaurants on, on the estate and so on. 01:21:39.029 --> 01:21:39.059 Mm. 01:21:39.939 --> 01:21:45.669 how much education are you giving the guests and the punters 01:21:45.669 --> 01:21:47.229 who show up on to the estate? 01:21:47.234 --> 01:21:48.099 How, how much are they 01:21:48.104 --> 01:21:48.789 Sammie Leslie: aware of this? 01:21:49.179 --> 01:21:49.929 Not much. 01:21:49.929 --> 01:21:53.619 In two or three years time, we hope to have an amazing exhibition space. 01:21:54.159 --> 01:21:57.609 and there will always be a need for intensive farming as such, but whether 01:21:57.609 --> 01:22:04.389 it is lab grown meats, whether it is black, so fly larva as a, as a protein 01:22:04.389 --> 01:22:08.229 source, whether it's vertical farming, but one where we manage to get all the 01:22:08.229 --> 01:22:13.119 micronutrients into, into the plants, you know, food is going to change. 01:22:13.119 --> 01:22:14.049 Absolutely. 01:22:14.379 --> 01:22:15.249 Massively. 01:22:16.029 --> 01:22:16.569 Tell us about 01:22:16.569 --> 01:22:18.639 Rupert Isaacson: this, this exhibition space that you are, you 01:22:18.639 --> 01:22:21.099 are putting into the, to the estate. 01:22:21.099 --> 01:22:21.969 What's going on with that? 01:22:21.999 --> 01:22:22.629 What, what is that? 01:22:23.349 --> 01:22:23.739 Sammie Leslie: we. 01:22:25.389 --> 01:22:28.599 Want to do a really interesting space to tell our story of our 01:22:28.599 --> 01:22:30.339 relationship with people and planet. 01:22:30.999 --> 01:22:35.949 and also the understanding the human body in a really fun way that, you 01:22:35.954 --> 01:22:40.179 know, can work for school kids and it can work for neuroscientists. 01:22:40.859 --> 01:22:42.419 and that's all I can tell you at this point. 01:22:42.419 --> 01:22:45.879 Otherwise, I would have to kill you and Eliana would not be happy. 01:22:46.189 --> 01:22:47.039 Give us, give us 01:22:47.099 --> 01:22:51.839 Rupert Isaacson: a little bit, a tiny t a tiny tidbit more what, what, what is it, 01:22:51.959 --> 01:22:56.669 what, what is the mission of the estate with this, in the ne in the coming years? 01:22:56.669 --> 01:22:57.629 What, what is it you want 01:22:57.634 --> 01:22:58.109 Sammie Leslie: to achieve? 01:22:58.799 --> 01:23:02.579 I think the irony is that this estate was always very innovative. 01:23:02.969 --> 01:23:06.689 And, you know, you had amazing women and you had a whole 01:23:06.689 --> 01:23:08.129 series of very innovative men. 01:23:08.189 --> 01:23:12.829 And then of course you got the odd generation that, would just enjoyed life. 01:23:13.199 --> 01:23:17.369 but in general, you know, they were innovative and, and funk differently. 01:23:17.849 --> 01:23:20.639 and I don't know, what about you with the dyslexic brain? 01:23:21.119 --> 01:23:22.379 It doesn't really stop. 01:23:22.379 --> 01:23:25.979 You're always going, what if, and if I did this and if I did that and turn that 01:23:25.979 --> 01:23:31.319 upside down and we put that over there and, you know, it's, it's, it's just so 01:23:32.489 --> 01:23:37.059 back to how can you do the best with what you have and by those around you, right? 01:23:37.059 --> 01:23:40.889 Rupert Isaacson: But what, what is it that you, you want to, is, is would this 01:23:40.889 --> 01:23:44.009 be an a sort of ecological, educational. 01:23:44.099 --> 01:23:44.489 Yeah. 01:23:44.489 --> 01:23:44.849 We space. 01:23:44.849 --> 01:23:48.449 Similar to say Eden in the UK or something like 01:23:48.449 --> 01:23:49.739 Sammie Leslie: that, or, yeah. 01:23:49.739 --> 01:23:53.309 Well we, we've been, and I think Tim Schmidt's amazing and, and we've been 01:23:53.309 --> 01:23:58.469 talking, it's how do you tell the story in a fun way for people that just 01:23:58.529 --> 01:24:00.029 kind of want to float along the top? 01:24:00.389 --> 01:24:05.279 And how can you tell it in an educational way from children through to academics? 01:24:05.279 --> 01:24:06.629 How can you share research? 01:24:06.959 --> 01:24:11.819 How can you do food schools and, and the learning right the way through, you know, 01:24:12.209 --> 01:24:17.219 the different, the different levels again, you know, from I said fun and easy to, 01:24:17.609 --> 01:24:23.509 you know, to to, to serious food and, and, and, in gut health and how can you do 01:24:23.509 --> 01:24:26.869 that in, in, in a, in a series of spaces. 01:24:27.769 --> 01:24:30.679 And technology allows us to do that now quite easily. 01:24:31.309 --> 01:24:31.669 So 01:24:31.669 --> 01:24:35.239 Rupert Isaacson: in the next, in the next few years, we can come to Castle Leslie, 01:24:35.239 --> 01:24:40.549 not just to experience beautiful nature, ride horses, eat amazing food, and look 01:24:40.549 --> 01:24:44.689 at incredible art and history on the walls of the stately home, but also to 01:24:44.689 --> 01:24:48.569 learn about, soil health, ecology and 01:24:49.139 --> 01:24:49.529 Sammie Leslie: the land. 01:24:50.279 --> 01:24:50.999 Absolutely. 01:24:51.004 --> 01:24:55.589 And our relationship, cuz I don't know about you, but, last year 01:24:55.589 --> 01:24:59.339 with the hot summers, you know, really started to get scary. 01:24:59.819 --> 01:25:01.079 We're really starting. 01:25:01.574 --> 01:25:02.444 To see it. 01:25:02.564 --> 01:25:08.114 And you know, one of the stats is that by 20, if things continue as they are, 01:25:08.474 --> 01:25:15.134 by 2050, 80 million people will be on the move every year through climate change. 01:25:15.194 --> 01:25:15.434 Yeah. 01:25:15.584 --> 01:25:18.704 And when you start to get into the conversation around climate justice 01:25:19.574 --> 01:25:23.894 and, you know, we're on 12 tons of carbon roughly per head in Ireland, 01:25:24.464 --> 01:25:29.474 and my unofficial goddaughter Somali, her mother's an for African Met, is an 01:25:29.474 --> 01:25:31.574 amazing human rights campaign around fgm. 01:25:32.294 --> 01:25:37.394 And you know, Somalia is going into its sixth year of, of desperate trash. 01:25:38.114 --> 01:25:40.964 You know, there's parts of that country that you just wonder, 01:25:40.969 --> 01:25:42.494 will they ever be livable again? 01:25:42.974 --> 01:25:45.884 You know, it's, it's, you know, it's parts of the world that are flooding. 01:25:45.884 --> 01:25:50.954 More and more of the world is becoming inhospitable and people have to move. 01:25:52.394 --> 01:25:53.254 What's fgm? 01:25:53.624 --> 01:25:54.044 Rupert Isaacson: You said? 01:25:54.234 --> 01:25:54.454 Fgm. 01:25:54.704 --> 01:25:56.624 Sammie Leslie: Oh, you're a boy. 01:25:57.064 --> 01:25:58.564 female genital mu mutilation. 01:25:59.014 --> 01:25:59.494 Okay. 01:26:00.604 --> 01:26:02.434 , yeah, Google it, it it is. 01:26:02.794 --> 01:26:02.884 I know. 01:26:02.884 --> 01:26:03.544 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:26:03.544 --> 01:26:09.754 Probably the biggest killer of children at worldwide that is totally preventable. 01:26:10.954 --> 01:26:14.674 You know, disease and war famine are horrendous. 01:26:14.674 --> 01:26:15.874 The human imagination 01:26:15.874 --> 01:26:20.794 Rupert Isaacson: of all the things that one could come up with to pointlessly 01:26:20.794 --> 01:26:23.584 do that is one of the ones that. 01:26:24.244 --> 01:26:28.894 But mystifies me that, that someone, you have someone sitting around going, 01:26:29.104 --> 01:26:30.304 you know, what should we do this year? 01:26:30.334 --> 01:26:30.604 Oh yeah. 01:26:30.664 --> 01:26:33.454 Well, maybe we should invent 01:26:33.454 --> 01:26:34.954 Sammie Leslie: this thing called female genital mutilation. 01:26:34.954 --> 01:26:39.064 Is that, how does one even come up with that subjugation of women? 01:26:39.064 --> 01:26:41.974 But that's a whole other indeed subject. 01:26:41.974 --> 01:26:48.364 And, you know, it's, it's part, you can say it's part of a culture, and of 01:26:48.364 --> 01:26:55.504 course it is, but it's also how did it become part of that culture, you know? 01:26:55.509 --> 01:26:59.014 And it, it was something that was sort of started by the Egyptians and 01:26:59.434 --> 01:27:01.174 spread into surrounding countries. 01:27:01.214 --> 01:27:01.504 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:27:02.444 --> 01:27:06.334 But yeah, what, I mean, we all grew up with, you know, institutionalized 01:27:06.334 --> 01:27:10.144 suffering that was sold to us at Exactly. 01:27:10.144 --> 01:27:12.124 We found, we went to, as we were beaten and that sort of thing, 01:27:12.124 --> 01:27:13.354 saying, well, this is the culture. 01:27:13.684 --> 01:27:16.594 And I think we all said, well, actually that's not a culture I 01:27:16.594 --> 01:27:19.085 particularly want to, to participate in. 01:27:19.090 --> 01:27:20.494 You're just making me participate 01:27:20.494 --> 01:27:20.614 Sammie Leslie: in it. 01:27:20.854 --> 01:27:23.734 And, you know, and, and you know, and as people in the western world, we 01:27:23.734 --> 01:27:26.794 can't sit there and wag the finger and go, you know, that's wrong. 01:27:27.174 --> 01:27:32.544 all we do in the, in the first foundation is help people on the 01:27:32.549 --> 01:27:36.984 ground who want to make a difference and support them and what they, and, 01:27:36.984 --> 01:27:40.284 you know, understand the ways they want to change their own culture. 01:27:40.644 --> 01:27:44.154 You know, this western thing of going in and going, you know, we're white, we know 01:27:44.154 --> 01:27:46.524 better than anybody else is, is a load of. 01:27:48.084 --> 01:27:48.384 Well, sure. 01:27:48.384 --> 01:27:48.714 It doesn't 01:27:48.714 --> 01:27:48.984 Rupert Isaacson: work. 01:27:49.074 --> 01:27:49.584 It just doesn. 01:27:49.584 --> 01:27:50.274 It just doesn't work. 01:27:50.964 --> 01:27:51.534 I mean, yes. 01:27:51.534 --> 01:27:56.604 I, I, I, from my years in human rights, it's, it, it, for sure. 01:27:56.604 --> 01:28:00.264 And, and at the same time, I, I feel, and I think everyone knows 01:28:00.264 --> 01:28:03.114 that there are things that go beyond culture that are just purely human. 01:28:03.694 --> 01:28:08.134 but it's very easy to hide behind culture and say, oh, this thing is a, 01:28:08.194 --> 01:28:12.454 is a valuable cultural practice, even though, you know, it kills people. 01:28:12.954 --> 01:28:17.034 and you know, therefore, you know, so, and it's, it's a dance one has to do. 01:28:17.034 --> 01:28:20.554 It's, it, it, this is something that you are involved in, in, in, in, 01:28:20.754 --> 01:28:22.434 in the large degree in your life. 01:28:22.434 --> 01:28:22.704 Is it? 01:28:22.754 --> 01:28:24.104 I miss human rights 01:28:24.104 --> 01:28:24.494 Sammie Leslie: work. 01:28:24.914 --> 01:28:30.064 Well, I met them an amazing girl trip called if Met when her, the, her 01:28:30.194 --> 01:28:32.084 the life story of her film, sorry. 01:28:32.744 --> 01:28:35.744 When the film of her live story was being made, it's an amazing 01:28:35.744 --> 01:28:37.784 film called A Girl From Mogadishu. 01:28:38.474 --> 01:28:38.594 Mm-hmm. 01:28:38.834 --> 01:28:40.664 And I said, how can I help? 01:28:40.664 --> 01:28:44.584 And I asked about her, did she have a, a charity or a foundation? 01:28:44.614 --> 01:28:48.604 And she said she did, but it was sort of very much a Facebook page. 01:28:48.604 --> 01:28:51.874 And she's an incredible campaigner who's done amazing things. 01:28:51.874 --> 01:28:56.104 So I just helped set up the sort of formal legal structure behind the foundation. 01:28:56.544 --> 01:29:00.744 got about eight, 10 years ago so that the structure was there to really 01:29:00.749 --> 01:29:04.584 allow her to do her work and get the sport behind her that she needed 01:29:04.589 --> 01:29:06.714 and the fundraising that she needed. 01:29:07.184 --> 01:29:10.994 and also, you know, the little bit of governance and measurement to be able, 01:29:11.414 --> 01:29:16.104 you know, to, to, to go to the bigger funders and go, this, this works. 01:29:16.104 --> 01:29:21.054 So she came up with this amazing campaign called Dear Daughter, where 01:29:21.084 --> 01:29:27.234 parents, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles pledge not to cut their child. 01:29:28.314 --> 01:29:34.134 And that's been incredibly powerful, giving people, the power 01:29:34.134 --> 01:29:37.434 to say, as an individual, say, no, I don't want my child cut. 01:29:37.914 --> 01:29:42.314 I don't want my niece or my nephew cut who you know, I'm looking after, cuz they're, 01:29:42.314 --> 01:29:44.034 no, their parents aren't here anymore. 01:29:44.504 --> 01:29:48.974 and it's very ground roots and, you know, it's very much her campaign. 01:29:49.514 --> 01:29:51.704 and it's really starting to take traction. 01:29:51.734 --> 01:29:53.264 What's the name of her organization? 01:29:54.164 --> 01:30:00.314 IRA Foundation, I F r I f, sorry, I f r A H. 01:30:01.124 --> 01:30:01.754 And her name is Ra, 01:30:02.084 --> 01:30:03.674 Rupert Isaacson: r a h, IFA. 01:30:03.704 --> 01:30:05.084 F r a h. 01:30:05.084 --> 01:30:05.354 Yeah. 01:30:05.564 --> 01:30:06.914 Sammie Leslie: Foundation Ra. 01:30:07.514 --> 01:30:09.504 And, I Raed. 01:30:09.854 --> 01:30:10.274 Mm-hmm. 01:30:11.364 --> 01:30:13.734 And it's called the IFRA Foundation. 01:30:14.844 --> 01:30:18.864 And, she was trafficked, long story, horrendous story. 01:30:19.164 --> 01:30:23.064 And she was trafficked into Ireland around probably 15 or 16 years old. 01:30:23.604 --> 01:30:27.594 And she actually ended up having the legislation. 01:30:27.594 --> 01:30:30.474 The law changed here and the legislation enacted before 01:30:30.474 --> 01:30:31.704 she even got her citizenship. 01:30:31.824 --> 01:30:34.434 She is one of the most phenomenal human beings I've ever met. 01:30:34.914 --> 01:30:37.824 And when she was on the campaign trail, and back in Ireland, 01:30:37.824 --> 01:30:38.784 she used to live with me. 01:30:39.234 --> 01:30:45.234 And I never, ever heard her once go pour me. 01:30:45.684 --> 01:30:47.154 The world is a terrible place. 01:30:47.724 --> 01:30:49.854 She's just like, be a voice, not a victim. 01:30:50.304 --> 01:30:52.704 it needs changing, so how do we change it? 01:30:53.274 --> 01:30:57.024 And lots of amazing people got on board and in behind the foundation 01:30:57.024 --> 01:31:01.444 room, a fabulous ceo, an incredible chair, somebody who's very senior 01:31:01.444 --> 01:31:06.004 in obstetrician who's just retired and from work and come on board. 01:31:06.064 --> 01:31:12.754 And just slowly bit by bit giving people the, the voice to say, no, 01:31:12.754 --> 01:31:14.254 this is the change that we want. 01:31:16.009 --> 01:31:17.059 Do you, do you, do 01:31:17.059 --> 01:31:21.239 Rupert Isaacson: you harness the, clientele of Castle Leslie 01:31:21.239 --> 01:31:22.619 in the educational and funding 01:31:22.619 --> 01:31:23.039 Sammie Leslie: process? 01:31:23.099 --> 01:31:28.079 No, because people come here on respite and there's that balance between using 01:31:28.079 --> 01:31:34.799 the platform you have and, and you know, and, and take, you know, and I'll be 01:31:34.799 --> 01:31:36.569 using it for the want of a better word. 01:31:36.929 --> 01:31:41.809 So, on either World Women's Day or World FGM Day, which is the 6th of 01:31:41.809 --> 01:31:43.699 February, we will celebrate ifra. 01:31:44.479 --> 01:31:44.749 but 01:31:45.919 --> 01:31:48.709 Rupert Isaacson: just writing this down world, FGM day is the sixth of bed. 01:31:49.249 --> 01:31:49.549 Sammie Leslie: Yeah. 01:31:49.819 --> 01:31:56.779 I mean, IFRA got FGM onto the charter for human rights, you know, before she was 30. 01:31:57.379 --> 01:31:59.359 Good Lord, she, 28 when her biopic was made. 01:32:00.499 --> 01:32:08.749 Rupert Isaacson: And she is someone who's also found resilience at Castle 01:32:08.749 --> 01:32:10.909 Leslie, as, as so many have interesting. 01:32:10.959 --> 01:32:12.549 Sammie Leslie: no, well, not re not resilience. 01:32:12.549 --> 01:32:14.019 Respite, so, right. 01:32:14.024 --> 01:32:15.099 Usually, yeah. 01:32:15.104 --> 01:32:21.729 She, and the only reason she moved out 10 days before, before she had a baby, 01:32:22.329 --> 01:32:27.649 which turned out to be about four weeks before Covid lockdown, because she 01:32:27.649 --> 01:32:29.809 needed her own house and her own space. 01:32:29.809 --> 01:32:34.549 I have a, a one and a half bedroom house, so, it, it worked out well. 01:32:34.549 --> 01:32:35.899 And Sarah is amazing. 01:32:36.379 --> 01:32:37.879 Sarah's her daughter who's. 01:32:38.599 --> 01:32:41.449 She will be four at this point. 01:32:41.839 --> 01:32:42.769 And the IFRA Foundation 01:32:42.769 --> 01:32:44.659 Rupert Isaacson: is operating out of Ireland, is that right? 01:32:44.899 --> 01:32:45.139 Yes. 01:32:45.529 --> 01:32:45.859 Okay. 01:32:45.859 --> 01:32:45.979 Yeah. 01:32:46.759 --> 01:32:47.269 how interesting. 01:32:47.269 --> 01:32:49.219 Yeah, it's interesting you say it got one and a half bedroom house. 01:32:49.219 --> 01:32:53.419 People assume when you drive up to Castle Leslie and you see the castle 01:32:53.424 --> 01:32:57.139 and you see the lodge and you see all the other buildings in which 01:32:57.139 --> 01:33:00.019 things happen, you think, well, that must be where Sammy Leslie lives. 01:33:00.019 --> 01:33:03.439 And then of course, we find out where you actually live, is in Narnia. 01:33:03.799 --> 01:33:05.569 that's one of the best things I've ever seen. 01:33:05.599 --> 01:33:08.559 for those, maybe I sh I, I should probably shouldn't disclose how 01:33:08.564 --> 01:33:11.349 you get to Nia because that's a bit of a secret within the castle. 01:33:11.529 --> 01:33:16.629 But suffice to say that you live in a very tiny sliver of the whole thing. 01:33:17.109 --> 01:33:21.169 the, the rest of it is, is, is, is given over to the enterprise. 01:33:21.629 --> 01:33:21.844 Sammie Leslie: yeah. 01:33:21.844 --> 01:33:23.454 Well, I live in amazing little corner. 01:33:23.454 --> 01:33:24.894 I mean, it's small, but it's a fact. 01:33:24.894 --> 01:33:25.914 This little corner of the house. 01:33:25.944 --> 01:33:29.964 But, you know, my bedroom was an artist's studio, so it's got windows on four sides. 01:33:30.084 --> 01:33:33.774 and is is quite an amazing space to, to hold up in, hold up in. 01:33:33.774 --> 01:33:36.894 But no, I've never lived in a normal, anyone in my life. 01:33:36.894 --> 01:33:40.404 I've either lived in lorries in Australia with the horses or an old 01:33:40.404 --> 01:33:44.724 cattle shed in, in Dublin, or slept in stables in Sydney at the show. 01:33:44.724 --> 01:33:46.854 I've never or lived at work. 01:33:47.064 --> 01:33:51.864 I've never lived in like a normal house with a front door and a back 01:33:51.869 --> 01:33:56.994 door and, you know, not attached to anything else or even a row of houses. 01:33:56.999 --> 01:33:59.034 I've never lived in a normal house. 01:34:00.424 --> 01:34:01.254 I wouldn't know what to do. 01:34:02.304 --> 01:34:02.724 well, 01:34:03.054 --> 01:34:03.354 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:34:03.424 --> 01:34:05.974 probably go look for, go into the garden and, and move into 01:34:05.974 --> 01:34:06.904 the shed like you've done. 01:34:07.364 --> 01:34:13.204 yeah, the, I I know that, you also have an interest in special needs. 01:34:13.324 --> 01:34:13.684 absolutely. 01:34:13.684 --> 01:34:20.594 And, I know that you are beginning to think towards this with, with 01:34:20.594 --> 01:34:21.944 the Castle Leslie Estate as well. 01:34:22.514 --> 01:34:25.694 Talk us through what, what your ideas are there and, and, and 01:34:25.699 --> 01:34:26.774 what's happening with that. 01:34:27.974 --> 01:34:33.114 Sammie Leslie: Well, while back, , I started here about this, , guy 01:34:33.114 --> 01:34:35.724 that had come up with this amazing thing called the Horse Boy Method. 01:34:36.284 --> 01:34:41.804 and it just absolutely fascinated me at the healing power of, of horses. 01:34:41.804 --> 01:34:45.584 And we've got lots of land and lots of space and lots of horses. 01:34:45.589 --> 01:34:49.894 And I think when you grow up learning slightly differently, you 01:34:49.894 --> 01:34:55.384 know, and, and, and you realize that we know so little about how. 01:34:56.704 --> 01:34:59.194 The brain grows and functions and, and works. 01:34:59.824 --> 01:35:03.754 and it was anything that I can, it's back to, you know, all you 01:35:03.754 --> 01:35:05.914 can do in life is best with what you have and by this around you. 01:35:05.919 --> 01:35:11.524 If we've got all these incredible things here, and then one day go by chance, 01:35:11.524 --> 01:35:14.734 I got locked behind a door with you. 01:35:15.614 --> 01:35:20.604 and, at a, an event for autism that somebody asked me to go to. 01:35:20.994 --> 01:35:24.084 So that's, I suppose when the conversation really ramped up. 01:35:24.484 --> 01:35:29.674 and I started to know more and more people whose children have been diagnosed, 01:35:29.774 --> 01:35:34.844 going, if I can help in any way, it's the least I can, it's the least I can do. 01:35:36.164 --> 01:35:37.994 What would you, what, what's, what's 01:35:37.994 --> 01:35:42.494 Rupert Isaacson: your vision, when it comes to the estate with autism? 01:35:42.524 --> 01:35:44.984 What, what in your perfect world do you think will Oh, 01:35:46.094 --> 01:35:46.534 Sammie Leslie: absolutely. 01:35:46.534 --> 01:35:47.534 What will happen? 01:35:47.534 --> 01:35:48.074 Hopefully. 01:35:48.464 --> 01:35:51.734 we're lucky that they built three stable yards on the estate. 01:35:51.734 --> 01:35:56.734 So the yard behind the lodge, would stay pretty much as it is. 01:35:57.154 --> 01:36:01.954 The second yards become self occasional accommodation and the 01:36:01.959 --> 01:36:04.054 third yard on the back of the estate. 01:36:04.354 --> 01:36:05.974 I think that's where we were going. 01:36:06.004 --> 01:36:08.344 We could create magical spaces. 01:36:08.734 --> 01:36:11.284 You introduced me to the incredible David Doyle went. 01:36:11.314 --> 01:36:16.084 We went down to Liz Kennet and looked at all the amazing things that he's achieved, 01:36:16.084 --> 01:36:20.554 and he's been up to us as well going, okay, we have the space, we have the 01:36:20.554 --> 01:36:27.064 want, we have the, we hope also the way to start to tell the, the stories about, 01:36:27.544 --> 01:36:32.504 you know, how we learn and also how EQU based therapies, movement therapies, 01:36:32.584 --> 01:36:36.034 nature-based therapies can really work. 01:36:36.124 --> 01:36:38.974 So it's a huge learning care for me. 01:36:38.974 --> 01:36:44.404 I know I'm an absolute novice in this field, but I just know that we've got 01:36:44.409 --> 01:36:48.094 the bits to be able to put together, hopefully to do something magical 01:36:48.094 --> 01:36:49.954 and, and to, to really help people. 01:36:50.494 --> 01:36:50.854 It's funny, 01:36:50.884 --> 01:36:52.864 Rupert Isaacson: you, me, you mentioned David Doyle. 01:36:53.044 --> 01:36:55.714 I, I, would I say I want to get David Doyle on this podcast? 01:36:55.714 --> 01:36:56.734 He flatly refuses. 01:36:56.734 --> 01:36:58.654 He will not, he will not speak. 01:36:58.994 --> 01:36:59.954 so I need, which 01:37:00.164 --> 01:37:03.194 Sammie Leslie: chime down on Friday and why won't he speak? 01:37:03.344 --> 01:37:03.764 He 01:37:03.764 --> 01:37:10.794 Rupert Isaacson: is the, the most strangely modest man, as you know. 01:37:11.154 --> 01:37:18.294 So I want to just let listeners who might not know who David Doyle is, let's 01:37:18.299 --> 01:37:19.944 just say, tell you who David Doyle is. 01:37:19.944 --> 01:37:24.474 David Doyle, is the current, incarnation of the Wizard Merlin. 01:37:25.314 --> 01:37:28.324 I met David Doyle, in 2012. 01:37:28.374 --> 01:37:31.909 I did a, a demo of Horse Boy Method in Limerick. 01:37:32.659 --> 01:37:37.129 And I got an email three years later saying, oh, you won't remember me. 01:37:37.129 --> 01:37:38.809 I was at that thing. 01:37:39.349 --> 01:37:43.279 I took your website to the Irish Parliament and got 3 million 01:37:43.369 --> 01:37:46.099 Euro and we were just building a state-of-the-art horse boy center. 01:37:46.099 --> 01:37:47.059 Did you wanna come look at it? 01:37:47.149 --> 01:37:49.669 Like I, I'm sorry, what did you say? 01:37:50.329 --> 01:37:53.749 And I went there and I looked, I, and I said, David, how did you do this? 01:37:54.139 --> 01:37:57.229 And as you know, David, he's one of these, he, he, he speaks very softly. 01:37:57.234 --> 01:37:59.509 He, oh, you know, I just talked to these people. 01:38:00.109 --> 01:38:04.599 And subsequently he started all these extraordinary autism, centers. 01:38:04.749 --> 01:38:10.569 His daughter has very severe autism and also had a very good reaction 01:38:10.809 --> 01:38:12.729 through horses, as did my son Rowan. 01:38:13.209 --> 01:38:19.479 And he's created an, an entire paradigm shift in, I would say, in the, 01:38:19.909 --> 01:38:22.389 mental health culture, in Ireland. 01:38:22.389 --> 01:38:23.709 It's now creeping into Europe. 01:38:24.199 --> 01:38:27.799 so the fact that you are working with David Doyle makes me as an 01:38:27.799 --> 01:38:29.959 autism dad, so incredibly happy. 01:38:30.529 --> 01:38:31.099 and I wish, ok, 01:38:31.729 --> 01:38:32.599 Sammie Leslie: it's up to you. 01:38:32.599 --> 01:38:36.739 I mean, I wouldn't have, wouldn't have met him if it wasn't for you. 01:38:37.489 --> 01:38:39.859 Rupert Isaacson: Anyone who's listening, check out David Doyle. 01:38:39.959 --> 01:38:40.349 St. 01:38:40.349 --> 01:38:41.549 Joseph's Foundation. 01:38:41.989 --> 01:38:44.839 it's in Charleville in, county Cork. 01:38:45.409 --> 01:38:46.219 you ever meet that man? 01:38:46.219 --> 01:38:47.899 It will be a tree, but yes. 01:38:48.349 --> 01:38:52.789 You know, th this idea that you, an estate, it's, it's very interesting to 01:38:52.789 --> 01:38:57.589 me because you, you drive, you know, you drive into Castle Leslie, and you can feel 01:38:58.339 --> 01:39:02.059 as you drive in a shift in the atmosphere. 01:39:02.059 --> 01:39:06.799 And it seems to me that there is some sort of healing spirit to the land. 01:39:06.799 --> 01:39:11.239 It's, it seems to me, is no, no coincidence that the Leslie family 01:39:11.749 --> 01:39:19.849 coming out of the explosive reformation, renaissance history of Scotland and 01:39:19.849 --> 01:39:27.049 England, then one bishop finds himself there by this beautiful lake and in the 01:39:27.109 --> 01:39:33.109 17th century, and no matter what craziness goes on in the rest of the country, and 01:39:33.109 --> 01:39:38.749 in fact right there, you know, the, the, the, the Cromwell and the English coming 01:39:38.749 --> 01:39:43.849 in and killing everybody, and then all the risings against the English, and then the 01:39:43.854 --> 01:39:46.939 tr the first round of troubles, and then the second round of troubles and, and the 01:39:46.939 --> 01:39:48.529 potato famine and all of these things. 01:39:49.579 --> 01:39:54.799 So many estates burned, were attacked, were hated, you know, 01:39:54.919 --> 01:39:58.489 with, with good reason by the lo not Castle, Leslie Castle. 01:39:58.489 --> 01:39:59.359 Leslie always stood. 01:39:59.899 --> 01:40:03.859 And as you say, the, the people there always seemed to have been interested, 01:40:04.099 --> 01:40:08.519 un unusually for their historical time, in doing the right thing. 01:40:08.524 --> 01:40:09.839 And there you are. 01:40:10.659 --> 01:40:14.279 you weren't even supposed to inherit this day and then you put 01:40:14.279 --> 01:40:15.599 Sammie Leslie: back on, didn't date. 01:40:16.189 --> 01:40:16.479 Okay. 01:40:18.249 --> 01:40:19.029 I bought it 01:40:21.909 --> 01:40:23.949 Rupert Isaacson: even more, you know, that there you were 01:40:24.189 --> 01:40:25.419 and you had to buy the thing. 01:40:25.419 --> 01:40:26.409 Mm-hmm. 01:40:26.909 --> 01:40:28.199 and get it back on its feet. 01:40:28.229 --> 01:40:32.289 And, and it seems to have always the, the, the, and now you're getting it, you 01:40:32.289 --> 01:40:36.639 know, from, okay, it's a luxury hotel and yes, there's any question center. 01:40:36.639 --> 01:40:37.419 It's all fabulous. 01:40:37.419 --> 01:40:38.139 It's all fantastic. 01:40:38.199 --> 01:40:43.269 And at the same time, the restoration of soil, sustainable agriculture, rewilding, 01:40:43.269 --> 01:40:46.749 and now human rights, special needs. 01:40:48.069 --> 01:40:50.109 You can feel it when you drive in. 01:40:50.514 --> 01:40:55.194 What do you think is the sacred nature of that land? 01:40:55.194 --> 01:40:57.264 I'm very happy to get as woowoo as you want. 01:40:57.314 --> 01:40:57.944 I'm all about that. 01:40:58.394 --> 01:40:59.474 I dunno, what is it? 01:40:59.714 --> 01:41:00.464 What is it? 01:41:00.464 --> 01:41:01.244 Are there sacred? 01:41:02.384 --> 01:41:04.244 Are there sacred sites on 01:41:04.244 --> 01:41:04.574 Sammie Leslie: there? 01:41:04.724 --> 01:41:07.124 there's huge Iron Age for behind us. 01:41:07.634 --> 01:41:13.724 Naven Fork sees the hikings of Sters about 10 miles from us, but I don't know. 01:41:13.724 --> 01:41:17.834 I, the lake is 70 feet deep, but I don't know. 01:41:17.834 --> 01:41:21.554 And I, I saw something the other day on Instagram where a guy put 01:41:21.559 --> 01:41:25.424 a electrode into the soil and on a little meter nothing showed. 01:41:25.764 --> 01:41:29.314 he put, he held one piece in his hand. 01:41:29.314 --> 01:41:30.244 He had flip-flops on. 01:41:30.484 --> 01:41:31.594 Nothing happened. 01:41:31.894 --> 01:41:37.654 He took his flip-flops off and you could see the electric current shoot up. 01:41:38.234 --> 01:41:41.744 I would love to measure the electromagnetics here. 01:41:41.744 --> 01:41:42.734 I don't know what it is. 01:41:42.734 --> 01:41:44.594 It is a very special place. 01:41:44.654 --> 01:41:46.274 Maybe it's the light off the water. 01:41:46.274 --> 01:41:49.754 It does have a very, it has an energy all of its own. 01:41:50.104 --> 01:41:53.734 and it is a place all of its own, you know, I, you know, do what 01:41:53.734 --> 01:41:56.224 I can and, and whole team to. 01:41:56.614 --> 01:41:58.384 but it is a living, breathing thing. 01:41:58.714 --> 01:41:58.984 Mm. 01:41:59.494 --> 01:42:02.014 And you, it, it, it seems to be a place 01:42:02.014 --> 01:42:06.724 Rupert Isaacson: that has encouraged people, strangely, generation 01:42:06.724 --> 01:42:09.754 after generation after generation, through a violent history. 01:42:10.369 --> 01:42:12.739 to, to sort of step up to their higher self. 01:42:12.839 --> 01:42:19.079 so it's, it's hard not to ask, are there ancient pilgrimage sites? 01:42:19.079 --> 01:42:20.519 Are there ancient Druidic sites? 01:42:20.524 --> 01:42:21.089 Is there ancient? 01:42:21.089 --> 01:42:22.859 Is there, is there, are there old 01:42:22.859 --> 01:42:23.609 Sammie Leslie: stories? 01:42:23.659 --> 01:42:28.309 not, well, there's Crown Oaks on the top lake, but they would've been inhabitation. 01:42:28.609 --> 01:42:33.139 Not that we, no, I mean, there is one small ancient site on Kilty 01:42:33.144 --> 01:42:39.979 bags, but a small wrath that got bulldozed out in the late 18 hundreds. 01:42:40.429 --> 01:42:42.559 I've seen it on an old map. 01:42:43.269 --> 01:42:47.139 but I haven't found a very sacred site, 01:42:47.589 --> 01:42:47.949 Rupert Isaacson: no. 01:42:47.949 --> 01:42:49.149 On stories about saints. 01:42:49.149 --> 01:42:50.799 No fairy rings, no 01:42:51.159 --> 01:42:52.919 Sammie Leslie: occult, , I mean the small stuff. 01:42:52.924 --> 01:42:53.159 St. 01:42:53.159 --> 01:42:56.819 Patrick came to this village and so Vikings came here. 01:42:56.819 --> 01:42:58.499 The Iron Age, settlements were here. 01:42:58.499 --> 01:42:59.789 The Vikings came here. 01:42:59.789 --> 01:43:00.029 St. 01:43:00.029 --> 01:43:01.169 Patrick came here. 01:43:01.629 --> 01:43:03.039 he built small church here. 01:43:03.519 --> 01:43:08.649 I, not that I find, but it doesn't mean there isn't, because Christian faith was 01:43:08.649 --> 01:43:13.389 very good at wiping out earlier things. 01:43:13.839 --> 01:43:14.349 I don't know. 01:43:14.349 --> 01:43:20.289 But it is, it certainly is a magical place and it gets most people. 01:43:20.739 --> 01:43:21.159 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:43:21.279 --> 01:43:21.489 Yeah. 01:43:21.494 --> 01:43:23.049 It's definitely a place where you come to here. 01:43:23.049 --> 01:43:26.209 I've stayed there with my son and, the adorable run. 01:43:26.299 --> 01:43:27.199 The adorable run. 01:43:27.199 --> 01:43:32.409 And, he is hilarious cuz you, you so can he put him up in 01:43:32.739 --> 01:43:34.449 one of the rooms in the cast? 01:43:34.449 --> 01:43:35.499 And he, I went to check him. 01:43:35.499 --> 01:43:37.459 He said, I feel like Henry VII in here. 01:43:37.999 --> 01:43:38.219 And 01:43:40.659 --> 01:43:41.799 Sammie Leslie: he said, I just need to, I just need to, I 01:43:41.799 --> 01:43:44.439 Rupert Isaacson: just need to lay on this, on this bed with this canopy. 01:43:44.469 --> 01:43:45.939 Cause it makes me feel royal. 01:43:46.359 --> 01:43:51.489 but that he came away saying, because, you know, he, he's autistic and he's sort of 01:43:51.549 --> 01:43:54.039 ultrasensitive and ultra authentic always. 01:43:54.039 --> 01:43:57.399 He says, he said, dad, there's, there's something healing about that place. 01:43:57.979 --> 01:43:58.849 I want to go back there. 01:43:58.849 --> 01:44:00.229 There's something healing. 01:44:00.234 --> 01:44:02.149 He said, it makes me feel better in my head. 01:44:03.829 --> 01:44:06.069 Sammie Leslie: that's, you know, it's wonderful. 01:44:06.099 --> 01:44:08.829 We can talk about stuff cuz in the old days it would be, oh, you know, it's all 01:44:08.829 --> 01:44:10.989 woowoo and fluffy and all of the rest. 01:44:10.994 --> 01:44:15.279 But I think more and more, you know, we're starting to show our, our connection 01:44:15.284 --> 01:44:19.874 of nature, our loss of connection with nature, is, is hugely de detrimental. 01:44:20.264 --> 01:44:23.204 you know, that getting into water, it's walking in mud, in 01:44:23.204 --> 01:44:27.704 the marshes, it's, you know, it's sitting on trees and under trees. 01:44:27.704 --> 01:44:32.594 It's just being immersed in nature, which of course is our natural place of being. 01:44:32.594 --> 01:44:35.924 I mean, it takes this wreck, something like 10,000 years for 01:44:35.924 --> 01:44:38.984 one genetic change to, to happen. 01:44:39.364 --> 01:44:41.014 you know, in a, in a species. 01:44:41.014 --> 01:44:47.064 And we've gone, we've shifted so fast in the last few hundred years to, being 01:44:47.069 --> 01:44:48.954 totally disconnected from nature. 01:44:49.424 --> 01:44:51.104 and I'm not sure that's healthy. 01:44:51.109 --> 01:44:56.774 So the more we can do to help people get reers into nature in, in different ways, 01:44:57.304 --> 01:44:59.074 yeah, that's what we want to look at. 01:44:59.704 --> 01:45:01.684 And it's just how can create a healing place? 01:45:01.684 --> 01:45:05.974 How can we create respite, you know, how can we create respite for families with 01:45:05.974 --> 01:45:11.014 children, you know, with autism and other, what's, what word am I allowed to use? 01:45:11.194 --> 01:45:11.944 You can't say issues. 01:45:11.944 --> 01:45:12.544 Difficulties. 01:45:13.234 --> 01:45:13.534 Oh gosh. 01:45:13.534 --> 01:45:16.024 Rupert Isaacson: Conditions I think is probably the, yes. 01:45:16.024 --> 01:45:16.384 Yeah. 01:45:16.384 --> 01:45:16.385 Yeah. 01:45:16.464 --> 01:45:17.434 I mean, yeah, sorry. 01:45:17.524 --> 01:45:19.294 Well that's, it's so interesting, you know, that the 01:45:19.294 --> 01:45:20.554 whole politic correct thing. 01:45:20.654 --> 01:45:23.144 I often ask Rowan, you know, do you have a. 01:45:23.519 --> 01:45:25.319 Word that you want me to use? 01:45:25.349 --> 01:45:28.349 Like someone with autism, what the said dad, I'm autistic. 01:45:28.859 --> 01:45:29.099 You know? 01:45:29.729 --> 01:45:31.079 Yeah, just, just, just say it. 01:45:31.139 --> 01:45:31.489 Just use 01:45:31.489 --> 01:45:33.749 Sammie Leslie: the word just, yeah, exactly. 01:45:34.019 --> 01:45:38.159 So yes, it's, you know, my dad did sort of things here during the 01:45:38.164 --> 01:45:42.689 troubles to bring kids from inner city communities in Belfast, from opposite 01:45:42.689 --> 01:45:47.199 sides together, and a sort of camping summer holidays and, and just give 01:45:47.199 --> 01:45:52.299 them some proper outdoor fun and, and forget about, you know, the troubles. 01:45:52.899 --> 01:45:57.309 And, , he did for a summer or two and then he got a phone call to tell 'em to stop. 01:45:57.879 --> 01:46:01.779 When you got those phone calls, you didn't not listen to them. 01:46:01.779 --> 01:46:04.389 So it is a very, very magical place. 01:46:05.289 --> 01:46:06.549 It absolutely is. 01:46:06.609 --> 01:46:10.749 And it's this sort of real little bubble, especially in this ever faster 01:46:10.749 --> 01:46:17.589 growing digital world where we are bombarded it constantly with information 01:46:18.249 --> 01:46:22.239 and lots of stuff that's designed to, you know, do that four minute dopamine 01:46:22.239 --> 01:46:24.429 hit that just becomes addictive. 01:46:24.909 --> 01:46:29.019 and it's rewiring our brains and, and most people don't notice. 01:46:29.049 --> 01:46:32.799 So it's the, you know, the deconnect disconnect and the unplug and do 01:46:32.829 --> 01:46:36.399 strange things like talk to the person you came away for the weekend with. 01:46:37.359 --> 01:46:37.539 Yeah. 01:46:37.689 --> 01:46:40.539 We've no television from the castle, just. 01:46:41.624 --> 01:46:46.519 refuse to have them, you know, there's one wing that does, but they're, they either 01:46:46.519 --> 01:46:50.359 look like mirrors or pictures and actually they're, because normally that sort of 01:46:50.359 --> 01:46:54.769 black hole of a television calls you when you come into the room to, to turn it on. 01:46:55.459 --> 01:46:55.729 no. 01:46:55.879 --> 01:47:00.259 It's just being able to disconnect and reconnect with nature. 01:47:00.379 --> 01:47:03.559 And I think over the coming decade we will learn more and more 01:47:03.559 --> 01:47:06.379 and more about the, the healing powers of connecting with nature. 01:47:06.649 --> 01:47:12.109 And I think we'll do it in a scientific way so that we can explain, to, I was 01:47:12.109 --> 01:47:16.339 gonna say the numpties, the powers, the be that we need that connect. 01:47:16.459 --> 01:47:21.229 I was in Singapore recently and they are very strong on their biophilic 01:47:21.229 --> 01:47:26.719 architecture, which is that whole thing of growing plants in and on buildings. 01:47:26.724 --> 01:47:27.129 Mm-hmm. 01:47:27.429 --> 01:47:30.919 And it, you know, reduces the air conditioning. 01:47:30.919 --> 01:47:36.649 It cools, you know, it, the de-stresses it, mental health, it cleans the air. 01:47:36.919 --> 01:47:39.199 It has so many positives. 01:47:39.659 --> 01:47:44.339 and that's a small island with 1% of our landmass with the 01:47:44.344 --> 01:47:46.019 same population as Ireland. 01:47:46.649 --> 01:47:47.999 And you just smiled everywhere. 01:47:48.004 --> 01:47:51.719 You just kind of fell in love with the city cuz it is so green, 01:47:52.319 --> 01:47:53.489 it's just greenery everywhere. 01:47:53.489 --> 01:47:55.499 They've been greening it's, you know, from the fifties. 01:47:56.139 --> 01:47:59.329 cuz they had quite visionary, you know, Paris at bay at the time. 01:47:59.839 --> 01:48:00.829 yeah, there's. 01:48:01.909 --> 01:48:03.679 Rupert Isaacson: I just wanna talk about that for a moment actually. 01:48:03.679 --> 01:48:05.449 the greening of buildings. 01:48:06.039 --> 01:48:06.459 Mm-hmm. 01:48:06.474 --> 01:48:08.544 I'm a great proponent of it. 01:48:08.654 --> 01:48:13.034 and it's interesting how when people talk about carbon sinks and that sort of thing, 01:48:13.039 --> 01:48:16.094 people, and people talk about forest and all the things which we should happen. 01:48:16.099 --> 01:48:20.834 No one talks about ivy growing up buildings, or, I know there's a, 01:48:20.839 --> 01:48:24.584 a, a company in Spain, for example, that's doing moss clad walls. 01:48:25.064 --> 01:48:25.484 Mm-hmm. 01:48:25.534 --> 01:48:30.199 and they, I, I read somewhere that a, a concrete bench covered 01:48:30.199 --> 01:48:34.369 in moss actually absorbs more carbon than your average tree. 01:48:34.369 --> 01:48:37.429 These things I didn't know, but yet you see so few people doing it. 01:48:37.429 --> 01:48:41.089 And like here in Germany, I know that the moment I start to try and grow creeper 01:48:41.089 --> 01:48:45.469 up my wall, all my neighbors go, oh, oh, it's gonna do this, it's gonna do that. 01:48:45.469 --> 01:48:48.709 It's gonna, and, and then I'm thinking, yeah, but I grew up, you know, in houses 01:48:48.709 --> 01:48:52.549 that had ivy on the walls and the, the, the house didn't seem to go anywhere. 01:48:52.949 --> 01:48:54.234 and, and the wall didn't fall off. 01:48:54.414 --> 01:48:57.624 where, where's this, this, this come from this, 01:48:57.674 --> 01:48:59.864 Sammie Leslie: this, it depends on, it depends on the wall. 01:48:59.869 --> 01:49:04.634 Ivy is an incredible plant and in so many ways, but if you've got 01:49:04.634 --> 01:49:06.944 soft water like lime water mm-hmm. 01:49:07.094 --> 01:49:10.904 It will actually get in between the stones and start to pull it apart. 01:49:10.994 --> 01:49:12.224 I mean, there's lots of creepers. 01:49:12.224 --> 01:49:15.644 I mean, we've won cold Virginia creep in a building that's probably 150 years 01:49:15.644 --> 01:49:18.284 old and it won't get into the Mosher. 01:49:18.624 --> 01:49:22.144 so some will, some will, attack buildings and others won't. 01:49:22.174 --> 01:49:24.664 But Moss is an incredible substance. 01:49:25.684 --> 01:49:29.344 Moss lives on two things, especially spam moss. 01:49:29.344 --> 01:49:34.594 It lives on water and carbon and it literally sucks carbon out of the 01:49:34.594 --> 01:49:37.444 air and uses it as its food source. 01:49:37.804 --> 01:49:37.894 Mm. 01:49:38.194 --> 01:49:42.724 , and that's why, you know, having a lawn that's moss rather than monoculture 01:49:42.724 --> 01:49:47.824 grass is so much healthier in, in so many ways, and coaching lots of things 01:49:47.824 --> 01:49:51.094 in, in moss Absolutely cleans the air. 01:49:52.894 --> 01:49:53.134 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:49:53.174 --> 01:49:56.254 I, I kind of want to do it on the side of my, my house here. 01:49:56.354 --> 01:49:58.004 I'm sort of, I'm, I'm campaigning for it. 01:49:58.104 --> 01:50:01.254 and I, I hope to be successful in my campaign with my neighbors. 01:50:01.354 --> 01:50:03.994 but it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting to me that there's 01:50:03.994 --> 01:50:08.284 this idea of the clean wall, the clean building, the clean, you know, well 01:50:08.344 --> 01:50:09.724 Sammie Leslie: look at, look at biophilic. 01:50:09.729 --> 01:50:11.374 I mean, it's a whole science. 01:50:12.034 --> 01:50:15.724 I mean, there are certain plants that will break up, walls of sycamore 01:50:15.724 --> 01:50:19.714 tree plant near building will break up concrete, you know, will break, 01:50:19.774 --> 01:50:24.484 break up concrete, whereas other plants will, or all their roots will 01:50:24.484 --> 01:50:25.894 just sort of wrap around things. 01:50:26.194 --> 01:50:28.604 But biophilic, it's a, it's a whole science. 01:50:28.634 --> 01:50:32.359 And do you have a particular book that you would, recommend us on that. 01:50:33.184 --> 01:50:36.364 Bio, is that anything that's on bio biophilic architecture? 01:50:36.484 --> 01:50:36.704 Mm. 01:50:37.584 --> 01:50:39.444 not off the top of my head. 01:50:39.714 --> 01:50:39.984 Ok. 01:50:40.074 --> 01:50:44.364 Well, I should go a look at up and it, and it, and it changes from place to 01:50:44.364 --> 01:50:48.254 place because, there are things that grow well in different climates and there's 01:50:48.254 --> 01:50:51.734 lots of different micro climates as well, and lots of different reading mat 01:50:51.794 --> 01:50:54.164 or lots of different building materials. 01:50:54.164 --> 01:50:58.964 So you would want to do it specific to the building materials used in, in your 01:50:58.964 --> 01:51:00.704 area and the plants that grow happily in 01:51:00.704 --> 01:51:01.214 Rupert Isaacson: your area. 01:51:01.244 --> 01:51:03.044 What are you doing at Castle Leslie with that 01:51:03.314 --> 01:51:03.824 Sammie Leslie: out interest? 01:51:04.574 --> 01:51:07.754 With the new building, the new exhibition space, we want it 01:51:07.754 --> 01:51:09.254 to be as biophilic as possible. 01:51:09.894 --> 01:51:11.364 so yeah. 01:51:11.724 --> 01:51:11.904 So 01:51:11.904 --> 01:51:13.074 Rupert Isaacson: what would you, what would you do? 01:51:13.074 --> 01:51:14.904 What, what, what, what can you disclose? 01:51:14.904 --> 01:51:16.044 What, what, what are you gonna, 01:51:17.034 --> 01:51:17.874 Sammie Leslie: I don't know yet. 01:51:17.934 --> 01:51:19.254 It's at concept level. 01:51:19.364 --> 01:51:23.324 so we haven't got into the design detail at this point. 01:51:23.324 --> 01:51:26.414 That starts, I think in September this year. 01:51:26.854 --> 01:51:31.594 cause we're working in conjunction with our tourist board and our county council. 01:51:32.074 --> 01:51:35.224 and we want to do something that just hasn't been done here before, 01:51:35.554 --> 01:51:37.114 but that's normal on the estate. 01:51:37.119 --> 01:51:40.984 The estate built, you know, one of the first pumped water systems where an estate 01:51:40.984 --> 01:51:42.914 and a village, there was steam driven. 01:51:42.919 --> 01:51:45.284 So you turned on pumps and the water just popped out. 01:51:45.284 --> 01:51:51.854 And, you know, we did integration rebred integrated wetlands for sewage, where 01:51:51.914 --> 01:51:56.969 it's not just reeds, but it's 22 species of plant that eat all of the, you know, 01:51:56.969 --> 01:52:00.879 the phages and the slime eat all the bacteria in the water and the water's got 01:52:00.879 --> 01:52:03.909 half the nitrates and half the phosphates of the water already in the river. 01:52:04.399 --> 01:52:09.139 so, you know, nature is an awful lot of innovative solutions and I, 01:52:09.259 --> 01:52:13.669 and, you know, nature as an answer to na, as a nature, as a solution 01:52:13.669 --> 01:52:15.049 to every one of nature's problems. 01:52:15.559 --> 01:52:19.679 Cuz if it didn't, it would've silted up long ago. 01:52:20.299 --> 01:52:20.599 You know. 01:52:20.929 --> 01:52:24.439 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I've seen that, that that serious treatment plant on your, 01:52:24.679 --> 01:52:28.549 on your estate, and it it does Is it, does it do the whole village or is it, is it 01:52:28.549 --> 01:52:30.589 Sammie Leslie: just the It does, it does up, no, it does. 01:52:30.589 --> 01:52:32.449 Up to the equivalent to 2000 people. 01:52:32.689 --> 01:52:32.839 Yeah. 01:52:33.079 --> 01:52:33.319 It's amazing. 01:52:33.319 --> 01:52:36.079 And it looks like it's water garden and the biodiversity, 01:52:36.299 --> 01:52:38.899 and it is unbelievably high. 01:52:38.899 --> 01:52:38.959 Yeah. 01:52:38.959 --> 01:52:40.009 It's a water meadows. 01:52:40.879 --> 01:52:41.149 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:52:41.389 --> 01:52:42.409 How long has that been in? 01:52:42.409 --> 01:52:43.789 Did you, did you plant that? 01:52:43.789 --> 01:52:45.139 Did you put that in deliberately Two 01:52:45.139 --> 01:52:45.379 Sammie Leslie: years? 01:52:45.379 --> 01:52:45.769 Yeah. 01:52:45.774 --> 01:52:47.479 No, that was worked with Amazing. 01:52:47.479 --> 01:52:51.259 Was we very open-minded county council and worked with an amazing designer 01:52:51.259 --> 01:52:54.559 called Rory Harrington who designed it. 01:52:55.019 --> 01:52:57.879 and we worked with them, and went, yeah, absolutely. 01:52:57.879 --> 01:52:58.629 Let's test bed. 01:52:58.629 --> 01:53:03.609 It, let's, let's be the first to build one of these in, you know, in a historic 01:53:03.849 --> 01:53:06.279 setting for, in a village and an estate. 01:53:06.749 --> 01:53:09.539 and that, that's what we just want to do more of and trialing 01:53:09.539 --> 01:53:10.889 and test bedding stuff as well. 01:53:10.889 --> 01:53:12.959 And we won't get everything right, but That's right. 01:53:13.409 --> 01:53:16.739 You know, then you share what works and what didn't work and somebody else might 01:53:16.739 --> 01:53:19.859 go, oh, well actually if I turn that around and flip that upside down and 01:53:19.859 --> 01:53:21.929 put that over there, that might work. 01:53:21.934 --> 01:53:26.009 And then, you know, somebody has to be brave and be quite 01:53:26.014 --> 01:53:27.269 happy to make all the mistakes. 01:53:28.034 --> 01:53:33.764 We've just ended up in this world where everything has to be perfect and 01:53:34.034 --> 01:53:36.854 research the nth degree before we do it. 01:53:36.859 --> 01:53:42.674 And I mean, I think one of the, the saddest things in our world is how 01:53:42.674 --> 01:53:49.844 insurance is just starting to rule the world is just stopping, , creativity. 01:53:49.844 --> 01:53:51.944 It's stopping people taking chances. 01:53:51.944 --> 01:53:56.874 It's stopping people experimenting, because of the fear of not 01:53:56.874 --> 01:53:58.974 getting it right and getting sued if you don't get it right. 01:53:59.364 --> 01:53:59.394 Mm. 01:53:59.399 --> 01:54:04.944 You know, the downside of not trying in the first place is starting to bite, weigh 01:54:05.304 --> 01:54:07.164 the downside of something going wrong. 01:54:08.454 --> 01:54:09.444 Rupert Isaacson: How do you cope with that? 01:54:09.474 --> 01:54:12.644 Because you're, you're dealing with a high risk, thing at Castle Lessi. 01:54:12.649 --> 01:54:16.514 You, you still have an equestrian center that specializes in cross country riding. 01:54:16.804 --> 01:54:19.814 Cross country riding, innately dangerous activity. 01:54:19.994 --> 01:54:20.564 Yeah. 01:54:20.564 --> 01:54:22.274 How do you deal with this insurance issue? 01:54:23.084 --> 01:54:24.794 Sammie Leslie: we make sure it's as safe as possible. 01:54:24.794 --> 01:54:26.684 The jumps are designed to be as safe as possible. 01:54:26.684 --> 01:54:29.654 They're all under, you know, a certain height or the landing. 01:54:29.654 --> 01:54:32.834 The takeoffs are kept in really good condition. 01:54:33.104 --> 01:54:35.774 You know, the horses are, oh, there's my wild cat. 01:54:36.074 --> 01:54:40.839 The horses are, highly selected to be able to make sure that there 01:54:40.839 --> 01:54:43.209 is, you know, as safe as possible. 01:54:43.629 --> 01:54:48.519 And still most people who come riding except that there is some risk. 01:54:49.284 --> 01:54:55.164 but, you know, 1.35 million people die in car accidents globally a year. 01:54:55.554 --> 01:54:55.794 Yeah. 01:54:56.604 --> 01:54:57.654 And we still drive. 01:54:57.684 --> 01:55:01.494 And what's amazing is we teach people, we don't teach people to drive very well, 01:55:01.494 --> 01:55:04.014 and we don't do the continuous upskilling. 01:55:04.494 --> 01:55:06.864 and I think we could do an awful lot more in road safety. 01:55:07.134 --> 01:55:07.224 Mm-hmm. 01:55:07.224 --> 01:55:12.484 But because it's still, you know, profitable for the insurance industry, 01:55:12.904 --> 01:55:16.204 nobody's really got stuck in to make it as safe as it could be. 01:55:16.654 --> 01:55:21.394 I mean, I did my regular license and then I did a class one HTV license for 01:55:21.399 --> 01:55:27.034 40 foot trucks and sitting in a week in a, for a week in a cab with one dri other 01:55:27.034 --> 01:55:32.254 driver and an instructor between us either driving or wa watching and listening. 01:55:32.554 --> 01:55:37.174 I mean, I learned so much compared to what I learned in my regular driving 01:55:37.179 --> 01:55:38.884 license, which I did 40 years ago. 01:55:39.334 --> 01:55:42.244 And nobody ever has checked whether I drive well or not. 01:55:42.814 --> 01:55:46.174 You know, you sh we should do our driving license and come back a 01:55:46.174 --> 01:55:49.084 year later and do another bit and then at next year do another bit. 01:55:49.084 --> 01:55:53.674 And over the first sort of five years have, have continuous improvement and 01:55:53.674 --> 01:55:58.084 then come back in every five years for a chop up because we learned bad habits. 01:55:58.444 --> 01:56:00.604 Rupert Isaacson: Why did you learn to become a truck driver? 01:56:02.254 --> 01:56:03.004 Sammie Leslie: To drive a truck? 01:56:03.394 --> 01:56:03.784 Yeah. 01:56:06.274 --> 01:56:07.054 I'm sorry, horses. 01:56:07.054 --> 01:56:10.804 Of course, if you're going to transport horses around the place, you need to 01:56:10.804 --> 01:56:15.904 be able to drive a truck and you could do in the south a rigid license and 01:56:15.909 --> 01:56:19.114 then an Arctic license, c n d license. 01:56:19.114 --> 01:56:21.814 Or you could go up north and for the same amount of time, an effort, 01:56:21.814 --> 01:56:23.104 you could learn to drive a 40 foot. 01:56:23.734 --> 01:56:25.954 And I hate to say they are fabulous to drive. 01:56:27.394 --> 01:56:28.384 You still drive a truck? 01:56:29.134 --> 01:56:30.844 No, I'm you. 01:56:30.894 --> 01:56:32.464 You need to keep all your driving up. 01:56:32.554 --> 01:56:36.094 And, also cyclists terrify me now. 01:56:36.424 --> 01:56:36.574 Yes. 01:56:36.574 --> 01:56:41.884 I mean, in the old days you didn't have to watch out for as many people 01:56:41.884 --> 01:56:47.224 in your blind spot and cyclists that come up both sides of you, it's humanly 01:56:47.224 --> 01:56:51.784 impossible to be able to watch your left and your right mirror at the same time. 01:56:52.114 --> 01:56:53.584 As well as look at your windscreen. 01:56:55.414 --> 01:56:58.864 You're, you know, at some point you will miss somebody on one side or 01:56:58.864 --> 01:57:00.454 the other because they're everywhere. 01:57:00.994 --> 01:57:04.324 I don't know how they drive through towns. 01:57:04.774 --> 01:57:08.194 I really don't take my hat off to, to guys who drive 40 foot. 01:57:08.194 --> 01:57:09.574 Anybody that drives 40 foot. 01:57:10.294 --> 01:57:11.694 Rupert Isaacson: It's it's, it's amazing. 01:57:11.694 --> 01:57:14.664 One thing I didn't expect to come out this interview is that, was that 01:57:14.844 --> 01:57:16.554 Sammy Leslie is a truck driving ma. 01:57:17.844 --> 01:57:18.354 I love it when I 01:57:18.354 --> 01:57:21.444 Sammie Leslie: go to get my hire car and they kinda look at the section on your 01:57:21.624 --> 01:57:23.784 license to see, have you got a driving? 01:57:23.844 --> 01:57:24.834 And they're like, oh. 01:57:25.724 --> 01:57:26.024 no. 01:57:26.029 --> 01:57:27.824 It's, it's, it, it's good. 01:57:27.829 --> 01:57:32.324 But you know, it's back to continuous improvement and upskilling. 01:57:32.434 --> 01:57:34.474 and we don't have it in, in driving. 01:57:35.254 --> 01:57:35.974 So, listen, I've, 01:57:36.214 --> 01:57:39.054 Rupert Isaacson: I've learned a lot on this, on this interview. 01:57:39.154 --> 01:57:41.824 I'm gonna go off and look at biophilic architecture. 01:57:42.914 --> 01:57:44.714 I'm gonna go and look at Super Soil. 01:57:45.104 --> 01:57:47.954 Sammie Leslie: Is that Yeah, super Soil's, the Irish company, 01:57:48.054 --> 01:57:49.554 they're not that far from here. 01:57:49.884 --> 01:57:53.694 That is looking at feeding the soil and making the soil healthy 01:57:53.694 --> 01:57:58.104 so it can draw down the nutrients that it needs rather than, 01:57:58.734 --> 01:58:01.074 Rupert Isaacson: and getting away from the nitrogen, the harsh 01:58:01.079 --> 01:58:04.164 nitrogen, that's killing the mycelium. 01:58:04.434 --> 01:58:04.734 Right? 01:58:04.884 --> 01:58:05.094 Yeah. 01:58:05.214 --> 01:58:07.494 Sammie Leslie: And the micro within, within the soil. 01:58:08.244 --> 01:58:11.694 you mentioned a book so Becomes Dead rather than having, you 01:58:11.694 --> 01:58:15.204 know, a living soil, it literally just becomes a dead substance. 01:58:15.884 --> 01:58:17.984 Rupert Isaacson: you mentioned a book, you mentioned two books 01:58:17.984 --> 01:58:20.634 earlier on, which I want to just, draw people's attention back to. 01:58:20.634 --> 01:58:22.854 You mentioned a book called The Botany of Desire. 01:58:23.484 --> 01:58:23.784 Is that 01:58:23.784 --> 01:58:24.144 Sammie Leslie: correct? 01:58:24.414 --> 01:58:28.764 Oh, botany The Botany of Desire by Michael Poland. 01:58:29.514 --> 01:58:31.224 Tell us a little bit more about that. 01:58:32.124 --> 01:58:35.124 And he wrote another book that he was very famous for. 01:58:35.694 --> 01:58:36.654 Which I can't remember. 01:58:37.164 --> 01:58:45.834 and bot the botany of desire is basically one of the principles behind Rewilding. 01:58:46.374 --> 01:58:54.564 Except it's what the botany, what how we behaved, and it's how nature taught 01:58:54.774 --> 01:59:01.164 us to do the things it wanted us to do to move seed round in different places 01:59:01.169 --> 01:59:03.954 so plants could continue to, to move. 01:59:03.954 --> 01:59:08.124 Because if seeds just fall beside the mother plant all the time, you 01:59:08.124 --> 01:59:11.244 just get this clump that's always fighting for the same nutrients. 01:59:11.814 --> 01:59:17.834 But if, you know, if a peach tree could get you to eat the peach seed and all, 01:59:18.074 --> 01:59:22.544 and then poo the seed out half a mile away, that peach tree had much more 01:59:22.544 --> 01:59:29.264 chance of surviving because it wasn't falling on the roots of, of its parents 01:59:29.594 --> 01:59:31.424 and fighting for the same nutrients. 01:59:32.084 --> 01:59:38.084 And that's why we taste in the way that we do, which is, Sarah, don't eat me. 01:59:38.084 --> 01:59:38.894 I'm not ready. 01:59:39.134 --> 01:59:39.464 Sweet. 01:59:39.464 --> 01:59:40.634 Please eat me now. 01:59:40.984 --> 01:59:41.374 bitter. 01:59:41.374 --> 01:59:42.184 Don't eat me. 01:59:42.184 --> 01:59:45.274 I'm poisonous and I don't want you to to eat me. 01:59:45.724 --> 01:59:50.599 And, salt is our body's need to look for, I was gonna say isotopes. 01:59:50.749 --> 01:59:52.129 No electrolytes. 01:59:52.639 --> 01:59:53.389 Electrolytes. 01:59:53.659 --> 01:59:54.229 Thank you. 01:59:54.949 --> 01:59:57.319 Rupert Isaacson: so this is basically how plants have domesticated 01:59:57.319 --> 01:59:57.709 Sammie Leslie: humans. 01:59:58.474 --> 02:00:03.704 Exactly, and it's back to our arrogance of humans, thinking. 02:00:03.704 --> 02:00:04.904 I'm gonna see what Michael put. 02:00:05.084 --> 02:00:08.734 Oh, the Omnivores dilemma, which is about, eating plants for meat. 02:00:09.214 --> 02:00:14.464 but the botany of desire, it's very small little book is just real reminder 02:00:14.764 --> 02:00:21.244 of we are so deluded in thinking that we are in control of this planet and 02:00:21.244 --> 02:00:22.894 we are in control of Mother Nature. 02:00:23.884 --> 02:00:27.484 We will be the fifth race of humanoids to wipe ourselves off this planet. 02:00:27.844 --> 02:00:29.134 And nature will continue. 02:00:29.974 --> 02:00:31.354 Hey, why break this tradition? 02:00:31.954 --> 02:00:32.045 You know? 02:00:33.614 --> 02:00:34.684 Cause it's painful. 02:00:34.864 --> 02:00:36.634 It's a lot of unnecessary suffering. 02:00:36.649 --> 02:00:38.069 indeed, indeed. 02:00:38.069 --> 02:00:42.089 And that ability for nature to make us do what it needs is, it's also 02:00:42.449 --> 02:00:45.179 what it does to the rest of nature. 02:00:45.179 --> 02:00:49.289 You know, it's not just us, the same rules behave, you know, apply. 02:00:49.569 --> 02:00:51.969 but yeah, nature's very clever. 02:00:53.139 --> 02:00:57.599 Rupert Isaacson: Then you also mentioned a book, God is an optimist, Ben 02:00:57.599 --> 02:00:58.079 Sammie Leslie: Goldsmith. 02:00:58.079 --> 02:00:58.519 Oh, an Optimist. 02:00:58.524 --> 02:01:00.009 Please tell us a bit more about that. 02:01:01.089 --> 02:01:04.119 Oh, it's such a beautiful book and I've just finished reading it. 02:01:04.779 --> 02:01:08.679 he's an amazing environmentalist, an amazing human being, and 02:01:08.799 --> 02:01:13.149 they is very sadly lost Irish, their 15 year old daughter in. 02:01:13.649 --> 02:01:14.789 a freak farm accident. 02:01:15.559 --> 02:01:20.629 and it is his incredible love for, family, for his 02:01:20.989 --> 02:01:23.449 daughter, the grieving process. 02:01:23.479 --> 02:01:28.459 I do not know how any human being deals with the loss of a child. 02:01:29.089 --> 02:01:34.069 and have you found healing in nature and went on to become an incredible 02:01:34.099 --> 02:01:38.459 campaigner for, rewilding and nature led restoration reject. 02:01:39.429 --> 02:01:44.259 and it's his journey, but it's just written in a such a beautiful way. 02:01:45.159 --> 02:01:47.769 I've been asked to biography and I'm going, oh my God, if 02:01:47.769 --> 02:01:49.449 only I could write like him. 02:01:50.619 --> 02:01:51.459 Rupert Isaacson: it is on the list. 02:01:51.459 --> 02:01:54.309 I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna get God is an Octopus Ben Goldsmith. 02:01:54.339 --> 02:01:54.429 Yeah. 02:01:54.849 --> 02:01:56.829 The bot desire Michael Poland. 02:01:57.009 --> 02:01:57.429 Okay. 02:01:58.839 --> 02:01:59.019 Sammie Leslie: Yeah. 02:01:59.169 --> 02:02:00.159 And then yes. 02:02:00.219 --> 02:02:06.549 And then Wilding by Isabella Tree is a seminal book on letting nature, 02:02:06.579 --> 02:02:08.349 again, nature led regeneration. 02:02:08.349 --> 02:02:13.029 And they've just done a book called Wilding, which is the how to manual 02:02:13.479 --> 02:02:18.879 of wilding, large and small in regenerating Nature to be able to give 02:02:18.879 --> 02:02:22.029 it its place and space that it needs. 02:02:22.869 --> 02:02:25.089 Wilding by Isabella Tree. 02:02:25.419 --> 02:02:25.709 Tree. 02:02:26.349 --> 02:02:26.619 Yeah. 02:02:26.949 --> 02:02:27.249 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 02:02:27.249 --> 02:02:27.669 Great name. 02:02:28.449 --> 02:02:28.749 okay, 02:02:29.829 --> 02:02:32.499 Sammie Leslie: so Rewilding was the first book, and then wilding 02:02:32.499 --> 02:02:33.909 is the manual on how to do it. 02:02:34.269 --> 02:02:34.629 Okay. 02:02:34.689 --> 02:02:42.219 And it's just written in a very lovely language, very simple and easy to, to do. 02:02:42.249 --> 02:02:43.059 And, and 02:02:43.064 --> 02:02:47.469 Rupert Isaacson: is that something that people who just have a backyard regular? 02:02:48.489 --> 02:02:48.939 Absolutely. 02:02:48.939 --> 02:02:49.479 Good benefit. 02:02:49.509 --> 02:02:49.809 Okay. 02:02:49.809 --> 02:02:50.319 Sammie Leslie: Fantastic. 02:02:50.349 --> 02:02:50.559 Yeah. 02:02:50.589 --> 02:02:51.399 I'm, yeah. 02:02:53.949 --> 02:02:56.949 Backyard or a big space doesn't 02:02:56.949 --> 02:02:58.219 Rupert Isaacson: have to be cause of estate. 02:02:59.159 --> 02:02:59.379 Sammie Leslie: No. 02:02:59.379 --> 02:03:00.399 It can be your balcony. 02:03:01.449 --> 02:03:02.049 Fantastic. 02:03:02.739 --> 02:03:04.869 Can be anything. 02:03:05.649 --> 02:03:06.969 And then finally, 02:03:07.069 --> 02:03:12.019 Rupert Isaacson: dear daughter, the IFRA Foundation, I f r A H. 02:03:12.619 --> 02:03:12.739 Yeah. 02:03:12.839 --> 02:03:14.999 fgm, female genital mutilation. 02:03:15.569 --> 02:03:17.669 people should look up that. 02:03:18.359 --> 02:03:18.719 Sammie Leslie: absolutely. 02:03:18.719 --> 02:03:22.129 And there's absolutely, there's lots of ways, to get involved 02:03:22.129 --> 02:03:24.349 or to support, support. 02:03:24.354 --> 02:03:28.854 the Dear Daughter campaign is people, a mother or a father or an aunt, 02:03:28.859 --> 02:03:36.194 or an uncle or a guardian camp, committing not to cut their child. 02:03:36.474 --> 02:03:36.554 and 02:03:38.684 --> 02:03:43.964 Rupert Isaacson: then if people want to, get in touch with you or get 02:03:43.964 --> 02:03:46.484 involved in some of the initiatives that. 02:03:46.859 --> 02:03:49.799 Castle Leslie's involved in, and I know obviously if they want to just come 02:03:49.799 --> 02:03:51.779 and stay in the hotel, they can Yeah. 02:03:51.779 --> 02:03:53.309 Look up Castle Leslie online and book. 02:03:53.409 --> 02:03:56.879 but if, if people wanted to get involved in the, the Rewilding side, 02:03:56.884 --> 02:04:00.509 the so regenerative side, the, the special needs side, the human rights 02:04:00.509 --> 02:04:02.279 side, what, what's their best way? 02:04:02.789 --> 02:04:03.479 Should they contact 02:04:03.484 --> 02:04:03.869 Sammie Leslie: you? 02:04:03.874 --> 02:04:04.409 What should they be? 02:04:04.459 --> 02:04:10.879 with the Leslie Foundation, which we've set up a newly fledged charity, amazing 02:04:10.879 --> 02:04:16.329 board of people and people coming on board, or, you'll find me there as well. 02:04:16.749 --> 02:04:17.499 So, yes. 02:04:18.039 --> 02:04:18.609 The Leslie 02:04:18.609 --> 02:04:19.359 Rupert Isaacson: Foundation. 02:04:20.019 --> 02:04:20.169 Yeah. 02:04:21.189 --> 02:04:22.509 Is that.org, is that 02:04:22.514 --> 02:04:23.109 Sammie Leslie: a.net? 02:04:24.289 --> 02:04:27.919 dot org and then also through the main website, through Castle Leslie. 02:04:28.459 --> 02:04:29.689 And, and is that Castle? 02:04:29.689 --> 02:04:30.469 Rupert Isaacson: leslie.com. 02:04:31.129 --> 02:04:31.549 Dot com. 02:04:32.209 --> 02:04:34.249 Castle leslie.com. 02:04:35.749 --> 02:04:36.859 And Leslie with an 02:04:37.219 --> 02:04:37.339 Sammie Leslie: ie. 02:04:38.929 --> 02:04:40.869 Family with a y and Leslie with an ie. 02:04:43.079 --> 02:04:43.159 Castle 02:04:44.179 --> 02:04:45.199 Rupert Isaacson: leslie.com. 02:04:45.259 --> 02:04:50.449 And the Leslie Foundation, is that, is it one word? 02:04:50.449 --> 02:04:51.319 The Leslie Foundation? 02:04:51.319 --> 02:04:55.869 Sorry, is it, is it, is it the, is it the Leslie Foundation? 02:04:56.209 --> 02:04:56.539 org. 02:04:57.719 --> 02:04:58.829 Sammie Leslie: I'm funny feeling it's do ie. 02:04:59.819 --> 02:05:00.119 Rather. 02:05:00.119 --> 02:05:00.389 Rupert Isaacson: Ok. 02:05:00.389 --> 02:05:02.489 Let me, I'm gonna look it up here on my phone just so we 02:05:02.699 --> 02:05:05.099 get the Leslie Foundation. 02:05:05.339 --> 02:05:05.759 Let's see. 02:05:05.959 --> 02:05:06.479 Sammie Leslie: I should know. 02:05:10.349 --> 02:05:12.329 Rupert Isaacson: God forbid one should no one's own website. 02:05:12.779 --> 02:05:12.989 I know. 02:05:14.159 --> 02:05:17.399 Foundation, let's see. 02:05:20.459 --> 02:05:24.659 It is, you've got castle leslie.com that we know. 02:05:25.649 --> 02:05:26.489 let's see. 02:05:26.489 --> 02:05:30.149 The Leslie Foundation accept the cookies. 02:05:30.179 --> 02:05:31.769 Yes, I will accept the cookies 02:05:40.589 --> 02:05:41.189 here. 02:05:41.189 --> 02:05:43.209 I see info at, you're right. 02:05:43.239 --> 02:05:49.409 It's i e info at Leslie Foundation, ie. 02:05:50.339 --> 02:05:54.719 Info at Leslie with an i e l e s l, ie. 02:05:54.719 --> 02:05:56.669 Foundation dot i ie. 02:05:57.029 --> 02:05:58.469 So confusing me two ie. 02:05:59.039 --> 02:05:59.579 Sammie Leslie: Within the same. 02:05:59.579 --> 02:06:00.179 It's terrible. 02:06:02.009 --> 02:06:06.419 How often do you, how often do you do your own website, you know? 02:06:07.059 --> 02:06:08.279 No, exactly. 02:06:08.579 --> 02:06:08.939 Exactly. 02:06:08.939 --> 02:06:10.919 Do you mean you don't spend days googling yourself? 02:06:11.249 --> 02:06:12.299 Did I've gone all red. 02:06:12.389 --> 02:06:13.169 Must be the light. 02:06:13.469 --> 02:06:20.109 Rupert Isaacson: I think I did that last in 2000 or something like that. 02:06:20.279 --> 02:06:24.929 And then I sudden I realized that I was profoundly uninterested in myself, but 02:06:24.929 --> 02:06:26.339 I was very interested in other people. 02:06:27.149 --> 02:06:27.299 Yeah. 02:06:27.379 --> 02:06:29.509 , and that's sort of been how it's gone ever since. 02:06:29.869 --> 02:06:31.579 I find myself rather boring. 02:06:31.979 --> 02:06:32.519 , but I find. 02:06:33.174 --> 02:06:33.824 Sammie Leslie: I would agree with that. 02:06:33.829 --> 02:06:36.044 People like you Absolutely fascinating. 02:06:36.644 --> 02:06:38.444 I'm really boring, honestly. 02:06:39.014 --> 02:06:39.854 Well, I think you just, 02:06:40.124 --> 02:06:41.324 Rupert Isaacson: you just put the light to that. 02:06:41.924 --> 02:06:43.784 , Sammy, it's been, it's been a treat. 02:06:44.474 --> 02:06:47.114 Thank you for letting us into the world at Castle Leslie. 02:06:47.574 --> 02:06:52.909 , I, I would, I would strongly urge anybody listening, put it on the bucket list. 02:06:53.359 --> 02:06:57.229 Get your ass to Castle Leslie at some point, even if it's just 02:06:57.229 --> 02:07:01.519 to go have a bit of food and walk around that piece of magic. 02:07:01.519 --> 02:07:05.029 It's an extraordinary, extraordinary, extraordinary, landscape. 02:07:05.059 --> 02:07:08.719 And it's one of the few that is really sort of open, to 02:07:08.719 --> 02:07:10.159 people, but it's so undiscovered. 02:07:10.309 --> 02:07:14.569 , and you, you, there is a sense of freedom there. 02:07:14.809 --> 02:07:21.919 , I remember my son and I walking across one of the bogs by the Lake Barefoot and, 02:07:21.969 --> 02:07:25.119 , feeling in the oc feeling the October mud coming up through our toes and just 02:07:26.439 --> 02:07:31.359 reveling in the sound of the bird song and the deer on the hill, and to know that 02:07:31.359 --> 02:07:33.039 all this amazing work is being done there. 02:07:33.259 --> 02:07:34.424 Sammy, incredible. 02:07:35.024 --> 02:07:35.504 So thank 02:07:35.684 --> 02:07:35.864 Sammie Leslie: you. 02:07:36.234 --> 02:07:38.804 There's, there's, there's, there's lots more to do. 02:07:38.854 --> 02:07:39.934 we're only just starting. 02:07:40.369 --> 02:07:40.669 I 02:07:40.669 --> 02:07:41.239 Rupert Isaacson: can't wait. 02:07:41.239 --> 02:07:42.499 I can't wait to be back. 02:07:42.569 --> 02:07:44.159 I will be back as quickly as I can. 02:07:44.619 --> 02:07:48.069 and hopefully the crowds after people listening to this podcast, 02:07:48.319 --> 02:07:51.344 I still get first dibs at the door if you see me showing up. 02:07:51.394 --> 02:07:53.374 I got there first, so I'm sorry. 02:07:53.644 --> 02:07:54.604 You have to let me in first. 02:07:55.154 --> 02:07:55.784 thank you. 02:07:55.904 --> 02:07:56.294 Thank you. 02:07:56.324 --> 02:07:59.954 Thank you, Sammy, for your time and giving us a bit of a 02:07:59.954 --> 02:08:02.444 glimpse of this magical kingdom. 02:08:03.254 --> 02:08:04.574 Sammie Leslie: Well, you're very welcome. 02:08:04.574 --> 02:08:07.754 And it, and it's going to be an amazing journey over the next few years and 02:08:08.204 --> 02:08:09.614 have lots of people come on board. 02:08:09.884 --> 02:08:10.244 Absolutely. 02:08:10.244 --> 02:08:10.894 Well, thank you for having, 02:08:10.934 --> 02:08:12.944 Rupert Isaacson: I I cannot wait to see what you're doing, what you 02:08:12.944 --> 02:08:16.774 do with the, with the, ecological, educational center, what you 02:08:16.774 --> 02:08:19.024 do with, the autism projects. 02:08:19.624 --> 02:08:21.364 It's gonna be, it's, it's gonna be 02:08:21.364 --> 02:08:21.874 Sammie Leslie: fascinating. 02:08:22.774 --> 02:08:25.474 And I'm just sorry you're not here on Friday with, when we, 02:08:25.894 --> 02:08:27.064 when the architects are here. 02:08:27.364 --> 02:08:30.364 Rupert Isaacson: I no particularly is one of those architects is a mate of mine. 02:08:30.454 --> 02:08:32.914 And I do not get to raise a glass with you too. 02:08:32.914 --> 02:08:35.144 But I will, I will hold it in credit, for the 02:08:35.144 --> 02:08:35.954 Sammie Leslie: next time I'm there. 02:08:36.704 --> 02:08:37.664 It's only the beginning. 02:08:38.054 --> 02:08:41.034 Yeah, no, thank you for sending two more away. 02:08:41.174 --> 02:08:41.624 Thank you. 02:08:41.954 --> 02:08:42.224 Sleep 02:08:42.229 --> 02:08:43.784 Rupert Isaacson: well, rest Well, I will. 02:08:44.294 --> 02:08:46.034 Sammie Leslie: Okay, I'll Bye-Bye. 02:08:46.544 --> 02:08:46.784 Bye. 02:08:46.862 --> 02:08:47.972 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for joining us. 02:08:48.002 --> 02:08:49.832 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 02:08:50.070 --> 02:08:55.110 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 02:08:55.110 --> 02:09:00.300 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 02:09:01.008 --> 02:09:05.656 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 02:09:05.656 --> 02:09:07.666 dealing with trauma around the world. 02:09:07.993 --> 02:09:11.743 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 02:09:11.743 --> 02:09:14.983 for riders on long ride home.com. 02:09:15.282 --> 02:09:19.332 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 02:09:19.332 --> 02:09:21.252 bring you and your horse joy. 02:09:21.788 --> 02:09:26.348 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 02:09:26.678 --> 02:09:27.608 See you on the next show. 02:09:28.021 --> 02:09:30.711 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.