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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy, our weekly series

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where we cover the latest updates with what we're working on

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within the Privacy Guides community.

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in this week's top stories in the data privacy

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and cybersecurity space.

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Privacy Guides is a nonprofit which researches

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and shares privacy-related information

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and facilitates a community on our forum

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and matrix where people can ask questions,

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get advice about staying private online

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and preserving their digital rights.

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Before we dive into this week's show,

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here's a rundown of how the show is laid out.

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We'll start by covering site updates,

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then we will discuss the top stories

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in data privacy and cybersecurity.

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Next, we'll explore some trending posts

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on the Privacy Guides forum.

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And finally, we will answer questions from viewers.

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So if you have a question for us, please leave a comment

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either on the forum thread over at discuss.privacyguides.net

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or in the YouTube live chat.

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I am Nathan and I am joined today by Jordan.

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Hello, Jordan.

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- Hey, how's it going?

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This is, I'm excited to be here this week.

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- Excited to be co-hosting with you.

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I think we co-hosted once together so far, right?

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- Yes, a couple of weeks back, but yeah.

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So just to let everyone know,

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this is kind of a last minute swap in here.

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Jordan had some technical issues,

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so we'll be trying our best this week,

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but just letting you know ahead of time.

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- Yeah, no worries.

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All right, we're gonna go ahead and kick things off

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with the site updates.

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It's been a little bit of a quieter week.

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We got a lot of stuff cooking behind the scenes,

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But to start with, we do have a new video out for members.

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We have released the first,

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so we've been talking about doing

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this smartphone security course.

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There's technically four videos, there's an intro,

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and then there's like beginner, intermediate, and advanced.

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The intro and the beginner are now out for members.

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So the intro's real short, I think it's less than two minutes.

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So I would say the first of three videos is out,

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but it's technically the first two of four.

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So if you are a member over on the Privacy Guides Forum,

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or I believe even here on YouTube,

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you could go ahead and check that out already.

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And we've got another video in the works

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that I actually sent off to Jordan yesterday, I believe,

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that is ready for the next phase of editing.

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So that is shot and that is edited.

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We're doing some, or I'm trying some interesting things

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with like moving around and just,

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I'm excited for you guys to see it.

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I think obviously Jordan does amazing work on the editing

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and I think it's really gonna be exciting.

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So definitely let us know what you guys think about that

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when it comes out.

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And we do have one change to the forum

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and we wanted to let you guys know about it.

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We have added experience levels.

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So when you join the forum now,

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we will prompt you to go ahead and enter,

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this totally self-reported,

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what do you think your experience level is?

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And it's a beginner, intermediate and advanced.

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And it'll add a little tag to your profile.

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Actually, if you look at the announcement,

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I don't know if we can put that on screen or not,

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but it is right there on the forum.

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Jonah has a screenshot where he shows an example

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of what it'll look like on your profile.

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And there seems to be some confusion about this.

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So we're gonna go ahead and talk about it real quick.

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This is, again, this is entirely self-reported

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and it's designed to make the forum a little bit more,

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how would I describe it?

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I guess user-friendly, not really user-friendly,

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but basically what it is, is it's designed for,

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if you are more of a beginner,

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then when you ask a question,

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it'll automatically add a tag that says ELI5,

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which is explained like I'm five.

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And it basically lets other people know

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not to withhold anything.

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Jonah actually specifically says that in the announcement here,

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like we don't expect you to withhold information

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for it being too difficult.

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But, you know, just to kind of explain it in simpler terms

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and to be patient with the person asking the question,

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because they may not necessarily know all the same things.

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They may be kind of new to this privacy stuff.

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And it does not change the experience at all for anyone else.

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If you're an advanced user or an intermediate user,

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you can still add that tag.

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If it's a concept that you're not really familiar with

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and you want that kind of explanation,

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there's no like sections of the forum

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that are not available to beginners

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or vice versa or anything like that.

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So just to be clear, and again, it's self-reported.

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So, you know, it's kind of up to you.

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Do you feel like an expert or expert is the wrong word?

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Do you feel like a more advanced user?

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Do you feel like an intermediate user?

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And I believe you can actually change it too

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at a later date.

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So maybe after a little while, you're like,

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yeah, I feel like I'm getting the hang of this.

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You can bump it up to intermediate.

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So yeah, hopefully that is something

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that will make the site a little bit more welcoming

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for people who are maybe just getting started

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in the privacy journey.

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'Cause I have seen from a lot of other people,

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it can be really overwhelming when you first join.

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And the goal is to try and make it a little bit easier

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to navigate for people who are new

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to PrivacyGuides forums.

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So, and sorry, I'm navigating back to my notes here.

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Unless Jordan has anything to add,

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I think we'll start getting into the news.

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You got anything I missed or?

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- No, great overview on everything.

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I guess we can dive in straight into this first story here.

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And it's a write up from Kevin.

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So here's our community and news intern.

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And it's about an Atlanta activist being charged

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wiping their phone before CBP search. So just reading from Kevin's summary here.

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Samuel Tunik, a Atlanta-based activist, was arrested and charged with destroying evidence

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after a US Customs and Border Protection unit searched his Google Pixel smartphone

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404 Media reports. The search was conducted by the Tactical Terrorism Response Team,

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an elite unit of the CBP on January 25th, 2025. Tunik supposedly erased the data of his pixel

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smartphone before the CBP officer searched his device. Although the circumstances of his arrest

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was unclear, an official indictment states that Tunik allegedly did knowingly destroy

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damage, waste, dispose of, and otherwise take any action to delete the digital contents of

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of a Google Pixel cellular phone.

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There is no evidence that Tunik committed any crimes

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beyond this charge.

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As of today, Tunik has been released

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and is awaiting further trial proceedings.

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He's not allowed to leave the Northern District of Georgia

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in the meantime.

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Privacy Guides cannot confirm if the device had GrapheneOS

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or a similar operating system installed.

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GrapheneOS is exclusively to Pixel devices

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providing features such as a dress pin that allows users to quickly wipe data off their

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phone in high risk situations.

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And as you might know, evidence tampering is a crime in most countries.

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If you're caught erasing data prior to a law enforcement search, you may experience similar

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charges faced by tunic.

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Nevertheless, journalists and activists alike may feel unnerved by this recent development.

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So I feel like this is kind of a unprecedented thing, I suppose.

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I was under the, I'm completely like, I'm not super into like how US law enforcement

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works, but I was under the impression that you would get this sort of arrested if you

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wiped the device after they collected it

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or while they're in the process of collecting it.

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But am I understanding correctly that this happened

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before the Border Patrol people collected the device?

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- I believe so.

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So it's really hard to know for sure.

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But yeah, according to 404 Media here,

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It says that he wiped the device before they were able

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to search it and I believe it was before he was arrested

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or anything and yeah, it's,

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this is a really confusing, not confusing story.

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So I have a friend who is a lawyer

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and is very passionate about this kind of stuff.

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And she sent me like eight pages of thoughts about this

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phones. And this is specific to the US. Yeah. To be fair, a lot of those pages were a paper

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she wrote in college that she shared with me that was basically about the state of cell

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phones search rights here in the US. And it's very unclear area. So within 100 miles of

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the US border and that does include the ocean.

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Customs and Border Patrol has jurisdiction

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and they can choose to search your phone.

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And there's a very,

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everyone, I should also mention,

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this includes any port of entry.

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So that's why this would have happened in Atlanta.

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Atlanta is not within that 100 mile zone,

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but because they have the busiest airport

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that is an international airport in the US,

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Customs and Border Patrol would have some jurisdiction there.

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So it's a little unclear why they wanted to search his phone,

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but he wiped his phone.

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And like you said, we don't know if it had a graphing on it,

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although it would suggest that he did

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because graphing does have that feature,

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but it could have been, I think,

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I think Alex has that feature too.

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And the article simply says that he put in a code

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and wiped his device.

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So I don't, you know, it could have been any number of things,

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but it could have been a third party app

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that did it automatically on a stock pixel.

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So we can't say for sure, but for one reason or another,

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he wiped the phone and now they're basically trying to charge him with destruction of evidence.

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And this is where the gray area is, is the Supreme Court has really, actually, let me

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go ahead and open one of the documents that she sent me, because the Supreme Court has

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really declined to weigh in on this.

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So like when does your phone become evidence that you can be charged for destroying?

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Can you protect your data before they physically take it?

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the legal difference between wiping and refusing to unlock.

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The only case that we really have that like clearly says anything about cell phone privacy

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is Riley v. California.

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And what happened is this dude was pulled over because his car registration or his tags,

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his license plate basically was expired.

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And then when they pulled him over, they found out that his license was also suspended.

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So the standard practice is to impound the car and search the car.

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And then when they searched the car, they found hidden guns.

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So obviously that escalated the situation.

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And just to clarify, when they search the car, when they impound it, it's just to make

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an inventory.

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Like here's everything we found in the car, you'll get it back.

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When they found the guns, that changed the math.

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So now they had, they arrested him for, I believe, possessing guns he wasn't supposed

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to have or maybe he didn't disclose them.

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But sorry, there's a lot of context that goes into this.

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When they arrested him, when cops arrest somebody, they are allowed to do a basic search of that

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person and the immediate area for the officer's safety. So the idea is they want to make sure

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that you don't have a knife or you're hiding a gun under the seat, which he kind of was,

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that you're going to try to attack the cop with. And when they arrested him and they did that basic

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search, they also searched his phone. And that's what this case, this Riley v California, he said

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they had no business searching my phone because that did not present a risk to the police. And I

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believe if I remember correctly, he won that. So the Supreme Court did say you need a warrant to

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to search a phone in that case.

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But I mentioned this 100 mile border zone

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where Border Patrol has jurisdiction,

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they don't need a warrant to do a routine search.

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And the Supreme Court has refused to say

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what does a routine search look like?

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We know what it doesn't look like

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if they hook it up to Celebriot or anything like that,

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that counts as a more advanced search

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and they do need a warrant for that.

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If you're a US citizen,

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I'm not sure about if you're not a citizen.

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But a routine like hand me your phone

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as long as they're not plugging it into anything

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might be a routine search that might not.

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So cell phones exist in this really gray area

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where we have conflicting court rulings

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where some courts say you need a warrant,

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some courts say you don't,

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00:12:53,580 --> 00:12:55,140
some courts say you need it in this situation,

252
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some courts say you don't.

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And it's really unfortunate

254
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because the Supreme Court has continually refused

255
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to lay down a legal precedent on this.

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According to my friend,

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00:13:04,420 --> 00:13:06,100
they declined three cases in 2021,

258
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the Fifth Circuit declined a case in 2023.

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So her speculation is that the court

260
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,840
is kind of trying to figure out what the public consensus is.

261
00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:20,980
And that's really what they want to base their ruling on.

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00:13:21,140 --> 00:13:22,540
And right now they can't kind of figure out

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where the public opinion is on this matter.

264
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And that's why they don't really want

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to put down a ruling yet.

266
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,940
So not to get too much into like analysis or anything,

267
00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:36,120
but one thing she said is in her opinion,

268
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that's why we need to build consensus.

269
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:43,140
We don't want to wait for them to make that ruling based on scattered litigation, kind of quoting her a little bit here.

270
00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:51,040
But the idea is that we want to try and form public opinions so that they rule in the favor of like, no, you need a warrant to search a phone.

271
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,940
But yeah, that's kind of the all the background of this.

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00:13:55,040 --> 00:14:02,400
So it's unfortunately, there's like really no like legally speaking, we can't really say for sure what exactly.

273
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,400
There's no precedent here. There's no laws.

274
00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:07,340
Everything is purposely vague and blurry.

275
00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:12,440
And yeah, it sounds like the article goes on to say,

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00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:14,840
"Tunik has been released. It is awaiting further trial.

277
00:14:14,980 --> 00:14:17,440
He's not allowed to leave the state of the Northern District."

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00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:18,400
I think you may have mentioned that.

279
00:14:20,939 --> 00:14:23,620
So yeah, it is something to be aware of.

280
00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:25,620
I realize that a lot of people,

281
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,680
or some people may have really sensitive things on their phones.

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00:14:29,820 --> 00:14:31,960
Like I believe one story I read, I can't remember where,

283
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,520
But it talked about an immigration attorney who had his phone

284
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,880
searched, like plugged in and searched the advanced search.

285
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:42,160
And he had to go through like multiple court cases.

286
00:14:42,740 --> 00:14:44,560
But at that point, the damage is kind of done, right?

287
00:14:44,860 --> 00:14:48,360
And that's supposed to be like confidential information, client attorney

288
00:14:48,410 --> 00:14:49,200
and stuff like that.

289
00:14:51,060 --> 00:14:54,280
But it's, it's tricky because we now see this and I've, I've thought

290
00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:57,920
about this for a long time is like, if you delete that phone, if you wipe it,

291
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,820
could the cops charge you with obstruction of justice or, you know,

292
00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:04,740
tampering with evidence or anything like that. And again, according to my friend, there's

293
00:15:04,780 --> 00:15:08,940
really no clear like, Oh, well, he wasn't arrested yet. So it's not technically evidence yet.

294
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:19,160
And there's also a lot of, um, what's the word I'm looking for? The, uh, gosh, I just

295
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,760
lost my trade of thought. I'm so sorry. Um, yeah, there, there's somebody was making the

296
00:15:24,780 --> 00:15:29,179
point about, uh, there, there's kind of the law weirdly does and doesn't, from what I

297
00:15:29,180 --> 00:15:32,520
I can tell put a lot of emphasis on motive.

298
00:15:32,940 --> 00:15:35,040
So like if he had a script that every single day

299
00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:37,500
reset his phone, it would be really easy for him

300
00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:39,340
to be like, no, they just happened to grab my phone

301
00:15:39,420 --> 00:15:41,500
right before that script ran or whatever.

302
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,300
But, you know, if he manually triggered it,

303
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,760
it becomes a much trickier gray area, I think.

304
00:15:47,140 --> 00:15:48,640
So, yeah.

305
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,740
- Yeah, I think the, the write up from Kevin,

306
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,620
like he suggests like if you're a US citizen or resident,

307
00:15:56,860 --> 00:15:58,900
the best bet is not actually to wipe your device.

308
00:15:59,740 --> 00:16:02,580
If you expect an imminent search or arrest,

309
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,680
something that you could think about

310
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,660
is make sure your device is fully patched

311
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:10,820
and setting a strong password or passphrase on the device

312
00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:14,580
instead, which would make it a lot more resistance

313
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,500
to forensics tools like Celebriot.

314
00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:21,220
But I think in a lot of cases when we see these cases,

315
00:16:21,420 --> 00:16:25,660
it's like a case that goes on for like a year, two years,

316
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:33,500
more like it's a long time to have a device in isolation. And I think by the time, you know,

317
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,940
they actually need to extract the information from the device. It might already be, there might be

318
00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:47,360
exploits available for Celebrate to access the information. So it's a bit of a problem. But I

319
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:54,119
think, yeah, it's, I think in this case, I heard there was, there was actual like video evidence

320
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:59,680
of him actually wiping the device. That's why this has been a concern, I think. So,

321
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,420
I mean, I don't know how someone could prove that you've wiped your device. I mean,

322
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:12,380
that's another whole thing, right? Like, I guess there might be some metadata on the device that

323
00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:19,000
could potentially notify law enforcement that it's been wiped recently. But yeah, before first

324
00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:24,100
unlock state is the most secure state you can have your device in. So if you keep your device in

325
00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:26,360
that state when it's taken by the police,

326
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,079
then that will give you the most security.

327
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:32,600
- Yeah, just to back that up,

328
00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:36,020
I think for most people that is probably your best bet.

329
00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:38,600
I, like I said, there are definitely some people

330
00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:40,740
who have really sensitive stuff on your phone

331
00:17:41,180 --> 00:17:43,360
where it's worth it just to go ahead and wipe it

332
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,320
and roll the legal dice like that.

333
00:17:45,630 --> 00:17:47,600
But I think for the vast majority of people,

334
00:17:48,020 --> 00:17:50,360
what would be better is to just restart your phone.

335
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,780
And well, there's two things specifically.

336
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:57,400
Number one, be mindful what data is on your phone, right?

337
00:17:58,420 --> 00:18:00,660
This is a really, and I know,

338
00:18:01,020 --> 00:18:03,240
I think we're planning to talk a little bit more

339
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,600
about digital minimalism in the future,

340
00:18:04,860 --> 00:18:05,660
in like a future video,

341
00:18:06,260 --> 00:18:09,780
but there is a strong argument here

342
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,400
for the idea of digital minimalism

343
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,000
of try to keep things off your phone

344
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:14,020
if you don't actually need them.

345
00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:15,000
And sometimes you do,

346
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,800
but sometimes things like email or banking apps

347
00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:21,640
or setting up the disappearing messages

348
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:27,440
apps like signal or session, um, you know, or simple X, simple X also has those two setting

349
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:28,440
those disappearing messages.

350
00:18:28,460 --> 00:18:32,520
So that way, even if the phone is taken and unlocked, there's very little data on it.

351
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,520
It's kind of a harm reduction, uh, attitude.

352
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:38,160
But also, yeah, for those who don't know, when you restart your phone before you unlock

353
00:18:38,180 --> 00:18:42,420
it for the first time, that is called before unlocked, uh, first state or before unlocked

354
00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:42,760
state.

355
00:18:43,380 --> 00:18:46,500
And that is basically the most secure your phone can possibly be.

356
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,620
Um, because once you unlock it, your phone starts to store things in the temporary memory

357
00:18:51,620 --> 00:18:54,460
And it becomes a little bit easier to compromise.

358
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:58,060
I'll admit, I don't really know the technical details of that.

359
00:18:58,180 --> 00:19:02,640
But it's, yeah, so for most people, your best bet is probably just going to be to go ahead

360
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:05,020
and reboot your phone before handing it over.

361
00:19:05,740 --> 00:19:11,460
And like Jordan was saying, as long as it's like up to date and it's the most recent operating system,

362
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,440
that's usually going to be, that's going to provide you a pretty decent amount of protection,

363
00:19:16,740 --> 00:19:17,600
I think in a lot of cases.

364
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:23,760
There's also not to go on too long, but there's a, you know, there's a lot of the apps that

365
00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:27,380
we recommend in the privacy community have the option to add an additional layer of like

366
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:28,820
passcode locking or authentication.

367
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:31,060
So like you can lock, I think proton is one of them.

368
00:19:31,550 --> 00:19:35,020
I believe signals one of them, Molly's one of them, things like that, that you can add

369
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:38,700
that additional lock where even if the phone itself is unlocked, the app itself may not

370
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:39,640
necessarily be unlocked.

371
00:19:40,130 --> 00:19:43,180
I don't know how well that works against forensic tools, but it could slow down people

372
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:43,680
a little bit.

373
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:51,860
And then just one last thing to kind of alert people to is biometric unlock is kind of a

374
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:52,620
pro and a con.

375
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,180
Face unlock is not usually something we recommend because there have been stories about people

376
00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:59,080
like pointing the phone at you and unlocking it.

377
00:19:59,820 --> 00:20:04,980
But things like fingerprint unlock, generally speaking, again, phones are a really great

378
00:20:05,060 --> 00:20:05,580
legal area.

379
00:20:06,060 --> 00:20:10,100
But generally speaking, you cannot be ordered to turn over the password because that is a

380
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,440
violation of your Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and your First Amendment

381
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,500
right to free speech here in the US, but you can be ordered to unlock the device.

382
00:20:17,820 --> 00:20:24,620
So, um, yeah, things like a fingerprint may not be, they may provide a little bit of

383
00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:24,940
protection.

384
00:20:25,020 --> 00:20:28,740
They may provide a good balance between longer passwords and convenience.

385
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,780
But also if you're going to a protest, hopefully you're going to harden your

386
00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:32,800
phone a little bit more than usual.

387
00:20:33,740 --> 00:20:35,420
So yeah, I don't know.

388
00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:36,380
Oh yeah.

389
00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:39,240
And real quick, Kevin pointed out in the article here that graphing specifically

390
00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:42,660
does have an option to automatically reboot your phone after a certain amount of

391
00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:45,380
time of inactivity. So yeah, if you're going to, if you're

392
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,000
bringing it to a protest, you could lower it dramatically to

393
00:20:48,020 --> 00:20:53,320
like a couple hours. So yeah, I mean, I think in a lot of cases,

394
00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:56,920
you should weigh up whether you actually need to take your phone

395
00:20:57,740 --> 00:21:01,040
to any event, you know, especially if you suspect that

396
00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:06,120
there will be police presence or law enforcement, I guess.

397
00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:11,860
Because yeah, you can eliminate the risk entirely. And I think

398
00:21:11,860 --> 00:21:13,960
It's important to be mindful and use tools

399
00:21:14,140 --> 00:21:17,760
that don't leave trails behind,

400
00:21:18,980 --> 00:21:20,660
especially if it's something sensitive, right?

401
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,720
Like journalism or any sort of thing like whistleblowing.

402
00:21:24,940 --> 00:21:26,920
Yeah, it's better to utilize tools

403
00:21:27,060 --> 00:21:29,980
that don't open you up to having that data

404
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,120
searched in the first place.

405
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,200
So, but yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary

406
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,340
of that article there.

407
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:41,100
I think we're pretty good to move on to the next one here.

408
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,680
Alrighty, so our next article, we're gonna head all the way on the other side of the

409
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:53,240
world and talk about Australia where this world first teen social media ban that we've

410
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,300
been discussing for quite some time has now taken effect.

411
00:21:57,940 --> 00:22:02,780
So I believe that took effect on the 10th, if I remember correctly, so that's two days

412
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,100
ago at the time of this recording.

413
00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:11,800
And for those who are just joining us, basically Australia has banned children from under 16

414
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:12,840
building social media accounts.

415
00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:15,340
And yeah, I do.

416
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,840
So the article we cited here is the register,

417
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,640
but I mean, you can find this being talked about

418
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,480
in any number of news outlets.

419
00:22:21,740 --> 00:22:27,180
And I know it's probably not great for editorial reasons

420
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:28,740
for them to be injecting their own bias,

421
00:22:28,860 --> 00:22:31,120
but I do really appreciate their cynical take on this,

422
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,260
which actually does kind of reflect,

423
00:22:34,020 --> 00:22:36,120
experts have been saying this isn't really gonna do anything.

424
00:22:36,380 --> 00:22:38,640
And the prime minister also said that too.

425
00:22:38,740 --> 00:22:39,480
He said, "From the beginning,

426
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,780
we've acknowledged this process won't be 100% perfect,

427
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,020
but he compares it to underage drinking.

428
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,020
He says the fact that teenagers occasionally find a way

429
00:22:46,020 --> 00:22:47,320
to have a drink doesn't diminish the value

430
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:48,640
of having a clear national standard.

431
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,280
So yeah, I mean, that's really,

432
00:22:54,380 --> 00:22:55,660
that's kind of the nuts and bolts of the story

433
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,700
as far as the actual facts go is if you're under 16,

434
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,840
you can't have a social media account in Australia anymore.

435
00:23:02,410 --> 00:23:04,420
I don't think the accounts are getting deleted.

436
00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:08,100
I could be wrong about that part.

437
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,640
Yeah, that's definitely a good question, right?

438
00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:18,880
I think it's we should probably like set some some work, some pre pre information

439
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,380
here, but it's basically it's the way that this ban works is that it will

440
00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:28,420
deactivate those accounts and the information will be deleted.

441
00:23:29,740 --> 00:23:32,160
So yeah, oh, losing their accounts.

442
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,680
It depends on the platform, what they decide to do in particular.

443
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,940
But like we've already seen people that have their account.

444
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:50,200
I mean, the main issue that I've seen with this is that the social media platforms that have asked for people's day to birth,

445
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:53,420
a lot of kids have already lied and said they're like 42.

446
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,320
So it's not coming up and saying, oh, you're underage.

447
00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:00,200
You can't use this.

448
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:07,100
I think that the government is kind of a bit confused about what children do.

449
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,660
They don't usually tell the truth.

450
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,480
They're not going to get on platforms before they really should.

451
00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:13,540
That's just how it works.

452
00:24:13,660 --> 00:24:15,000
It's just how children are.

453
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,800
So, I mean, it's not really a surprise that this isn't working too well, I guess.

454
00:24:21,060 --> 00:24:27,460
I think there's at least currently I've seen a couple of articles from the ABC.

455
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,500
That's like the national Australian national like news agency.

456
00:24:32,940 --> 00:24:35,280
Australian broadcasting company or something like that.

457
00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:36,120
Yes, something like that.

458
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:38,860
And it's like the state media, I guess.

459
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:44,700
And they've been kind of talking to children and talking to parents and things.

460
00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:50,180
And there's quite a lot of instances, at least currently, of people who have,

461
00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:54,520
who are under 16, having multiple accounts on the same device.

462
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,500
Some of their accounts not being banned.

463
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,300
some of them are being banned because the age is correct.

464
00:24:59,580 --> 00:25:00,120
So it's funny.

465
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,460
It's it's not working that great.

466
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:08,000
I also saw some comments because the way that this law works is they're not allowed to.

467
00:25:09,420 --> 00:25:11,960
I believe they're not allowed to actually ask for your ID.

468
00:25:12,060 --> 00:25:13,900
They have to use like age assurance techniques.

469
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,560
So they're using like facial recognition, age facial recognition,

470
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,220
which is like you point the device at your face and it guesses your age,

471
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:31,400
which I think is a little bit of a problem, right? Like what if someone who's like 18 looks

472
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,780
younger than they are and then now the racket's banned? Like that doesn't really make that much

473
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,800
sense to me. And there's also people who just point their device at other people. So I mean,

474
00:25:42,540 --> 00:25:48,200
I'm not sure that that is really that great at stopping this. The only way that I see it actually

475
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,679
being effective is if they introduce some sort of digital ID system or they actually force people

476
00:25:53,680 --> 00:26:02,380
would upload their ID documents. Like everyone to upload their ID documents. So the thing

477
00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:06,660
that I've noticed though is that a lot of people who are adults haven't really had any

478
00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:12,080
effect on their accounts yet. So it seems like they might be going for the most obvious

479
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:18,120
accounts first that I've put the correct birth date and stuff and disabling those. I think

480
00:26:18,180 --> 00:26:22,840
according to the government, they said they shut down like 300,000 children's accounts

481
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:32,200
on Snapchat or something. So it's definitely working for people who are under 16, their

482
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:39,040
accounts where they have put their real date of birth are being disabled. So yeah, I don't

483
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:46,260
think this is, we've talked about this a bit, but I think when you restrict children's ability

484
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,240
to access information, it becomes a little bit of an issue. It's also kind of confusing

485
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,640
which platforms they're banning like Pinterest and Discord.

486
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,260
I don't know about Discord, but I don't know if any of you have been on Discord,

487
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,760
but there's a lot of stuff that's bad on there.

488
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,500
And I believe that even the app on the app store is rated R 18.

489
00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:09,880
So it's very confusing.

490
00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:14,180
It doesn't make much sense why they're choosing certain apps over others.

491
00:27:14,540 --> 00:27:18,700
I think in a lot of cases, we'll just see a lot of people flocking to different apps instead,

492
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,160
possibly even shadier apps using VPNs to bypass this.

493
00:27:25,380 --> 00:27:29,400
And I think in a lot of cases I've seen there's people who use this for like niche

494
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:35,520
interests. They use social media to interact with other people who have niche interests, people who are like, you know,

495
00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:42,180
marginalized, like queer people. It's it's a bit of a problem that we're restricting the access of

496
00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:49,500
children to the internet basically. I

497
00:27:50,060 --> 00:27:56,740
They have a right to access the internet and there needs to be better systems to do this, right?

498
00:27:56,860 --> 00:28:03,000
Like we already have on device, like parental controls, like Apple has some of the best in the world.

499
00:28:03,070 --> 00:28:07,400
You can set that up straight on people's devices. It limits what people can access.

500
00:28:08,679 --> 00:28:14,820
I think when we start like adding blanket bands to platforms, it becomes more of an issue.

501
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,600
So I'm not really, I think a lot of people are very much not a fan of this in Australia.

502
00:28:21,860 --> 00:28:27,480
And I don't think people are going to like Albo very much for too much longer because of this.

503
00:28:27,860 --> 00:28:29,220
I don't think it's going to be very good.

504
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,920
Yeah, you really hit the nail on the head with everything.

505
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,920
A lot of the stuff you said actually is here in this article.

506
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:43,800
And let's see, reports have noted a sudden sign up in a spike for apps like Lemonade

507
00:28:43,980 --> 00:28:45,960
and Yope that currently aren't covered by the ban.

508
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,440
That surge has made prophecy out of warnings that banning social media will just see kids

509
00:28:49,580 --> 00:28:53,520
shift to services operated by outfits even less interested in child safety than the likes

510
00:28:53,540 --> 00:28:54,200
of Meta and Google.

511
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,220
Hard to believe there's companies that care less than Meta about child safety, but apparently

512
00:28:58,300 --> 00:28:58,580
there are.

513
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,340
They also said that, you know, the law, I believe, said they have to take like quote

514
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,060
unquote "reasonable measures" or something.

515
00:29:07,740 --> 00:29:11,700
So basically companies have to figure out on their own how they're going to verify users,

516
00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:16,440
which means a lot of them are outsourcing it, which ironically the article points out here.

517
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,920
Some have decided to work with age verification companies based outside of Australia.

518
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,080
So now you're putting people at risk with companies that aren't even in the country.

519
00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:28,660
The article says these companies may request a photo of government ID or a selfie.

520
00:29:29,020 --> 00:29:31,620
So I guess some of them may actually require ID.

521
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,700
But yeah, some of them may take selfie.

522
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:43,180
Like you said, I, when I was in college, I sat behind a girl in my English class that I swear looked like 20, you know, 19, 20, 21.

523
00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:45,940
And she was like 42 or something like that.

524
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,100
And she just looked amazing.

525
00:29:47,170 --> 00:29:49,520
And I'm sure when she was 20, she probably looked like she was 16.

526
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:55,980
So, you know, this, this like determining a person's age isn't always accurate, just based off the photo alone.

527
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,920
And then, um, yeah, again, like you said, you know, some people are using makeup masks lying about their ages.

528
00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:05,400
I know in the UK with their online safety act,

529
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,440
we saw people uploading video game characters,

530
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,420
all kinds of crazy stuff, VPNs like you said.

531
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:17,140
So yeah, this is very symbolic I think.

532
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,480
And actually on that note,

533
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,920
we did include in the show notes,

534
00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:24,220
EFF has launched an age verification hub

535
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,340
as a resource against misguided laws.

536
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,880
So I think this is a good time to mention that real quick.

537
00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:33,040
So the EFF has launched this website.

538
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,420
First of all, they're launching, they're doing an AMA,

539
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:37,900
I believe next week.

540
00:30:38,820 --> 00:30:41,180
Yeah, December 17th at 5 p.m. Pacific time.

541
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,780
And then, excuse me, 12 p.m. through 5 p.m. Pacific time

542
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,120
with EFF attorneys, technologists and activists

543
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,740
answering questions about age verification.

544
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:52,560
Oh, this is going on for three days,

545
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,080
December 15th through 17th.

546
00:30:54,140 --> 00:30:55,660
So you'll have plenty of time to ask your questions.

547
00:30:56,260 --> 00:30:57,820
And if you're not a Reddit user

548
00:30:58,060 --> 00:31:00,000
or you're unable to make that for any reason

549
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,760
They're going to have a live stream panel discussion.

550
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:06,020
That's January 15th from 12 p.m. Pacific time again.

551
00:31:07,399 --> 00:31:13,520
So there's that worth checking out, but they also have an actual hub, EFF.org/age.

552
00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:20,500
And this is a really, really simple hub, but it has, over on the left side, it says, like,

553
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:21,340
why join the fight?

554
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,960
And it tells you, you know, what's at stake, who is harmed, is this legal, does the tech

555
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,640
even work, which we were just spent all this time talking about usually not, and it usually

556
00:31:31,740 --> 00:31:40,260
backfires a lot. And yeah, I actually like where did it go? In the original article where

557
00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:44,580
they talked about this new hub, EFF, they had a really good line. It says, "We all want

558
00:31:44,620 --> 00:31:48,440
young people to be safe online. However, age verification is not the panacea that regulators

559
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,920
and corporations claim it to be. In fact, it could undermine the safety of many." So,

560
00:31:53,660 --> 00:31:57,160
Yeah, it's like you were saying, we've talked about this quite a lot.

561
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,220
And it's one of those things where politicians want easy, simple solutions.

562
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:02,860
Everybody does.

563
00:32:02,980 --> 00:32:03,540
It's human nature.

564
00:32:03,610 --> 00:32:09,980
We want a good guy and a bad guy, and we want very clean, simple, you know, all good

565
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:10,520
or all bad.

566
00:32:10,590 --> 00:32:15,560
Like it makes for a good movie, but in reality, people don't really like it when there's kind

567
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,960
of a gray area and like, oh, this person has redeeming qualities.

568
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,560
So like politicians just want an easy answer that they can point to and say, I did a thing.

569
00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:26,220
I made everybody safe vote for me again next year.

570
00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:30,720
And unfortunately, this is not one of those issues that you can just easily do that with

571
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,360
even I've mentioned in the past, like going after the companies and making social media

572
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,880
like Facebook themselves has pumped out so many studies that say this is bad for mental

573
00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:44,820
health just across the board, not even for kids, you know, doom scrolling.

574
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,980
I know I'm kind of rambling or getting on a soapbox a little bit here, but like doom

575
00:32:47,980 --> 00:32:51,520
Doomscrolling has become a common term in today's day and age.

576
00:32:51,740 --> 00:32:55,640
And honestly, that kind of blows my mind that we all just accepted that as a term.

577
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,620
But like, that's how bad it is.

578
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,120
And I don't, that's not limited to kids.

579
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:03,320
We all know what doomscrolling, even if you don't know it by name, if somebody describes

580
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,240
it to you, it's like, oh yeah, I do that sometimes.

581
00:33:05,660 --> 00:33:10,480
So like, it's crazy that we will do anything other than crack down on these companies and

582
00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:12,740
be like, stop intentionally putting people at risk.

583
00:33:13,799 --> 00:33:16,920
And it just, there's so many arguments against this.

584
00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:20,980
It makes kids unprepared for how to deal with this stuff once they turn old enough to start

585
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:21,780
using social media.

586
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,700
And it, I've mentioned before, I think it takes away from the parents right to like

587
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,020
decide when is right for their kids to join.

588
00:33:28,180 --> 00:33:30,240
And it's just, yeah, I don't know.

589
00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:32,660
It's at best, it's well-meaning.

590
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,840
And I say at best because I know there's a lot of people who don't believe that.

591
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:36,940
And I don't blame you for not believing that.

592
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,120
I'm not saying I believe it entirely, but at best this is well-meaning, but it's an oversimplified.

593
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:44,720
What's somebody, I forget who it was.

594
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:45,420
It may have been EFF.

595
00:33:45,860 --> 00:33:49,820
said, it's like, it's like taking a machete where you need a scalpel.

596
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,700
And I don't know if they were talking about age verification, but yeah,

597
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:55,760
it's, it's just one of those things where it's an oversimplified solution,

598
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,900
quote unquote solution that, uh, yeah, we're going to have to keep an eye on

599
00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:04,360
cause that's, uh, yeah.

600
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:04,920
Yeah.

601
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:09,280
I think there's, we've made a lot of, we've made a lot of like points towards

602
00:34:09,620 --> 00:34:12,040
why this is, uh, why this is bad.

603
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,840
Um, someone said here, if you're under 16, you're probably unable

604
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,700
watch this live stream. Um, actually you can still watch the live stream.

605
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,679
You just wouldn't gotta be logged in. So that doesn't,

606
00:34:22,740 --> 00:34:24,879
that's another thing that doesn't make sense about this, um,

607
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,379
this whole thing is it doesn't affect being logged out.

608
00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:32,360
So what people are just going to start watching YouTube videos logged out,

609
00:34:32,460 --> 00:34:37,320
people are going to start watching things through frontends and all these other

610
00:34:37,399 --> 00:34:41,960
things. Um, I think stopping people from posting as well is kind of,

611
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,399
you know, it's, it's,

612
00:34:43,860 --> 00:34:48,480
I heard someone say it's like you're silencing an entire generation, basically, because they

613
00:34:48,540 --> 00:34:52,300
can't comment on anything, they can't express their thoughts, they can't do anything.

614
00:34:53,620 --> 00:34:58,760
So I think that is another important thing about this is that there's people that are

615
00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:04,440
being silenced and their voices need to be heard as well on this.

616
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:11,060
And it's not like these are people that can vote, these are not people like that are of

617
00:35:11,060 --> 00:35:17,960
that age, but their thoughts on this still matter. So I think we should definitely listen

618
00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:22,140
to what they're saying. And in a lot of cases, it sounds like a lot of people, especially

619
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:28,880
under 16, are against this because that's where they find their communities. That's

620
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:37,540
where they access information. So I don't know, I think this is... I don't want to use

621
00:35:37,540 --> 00:35:43,820
a commonly used anecdote here, but it does feel a bit like a slippery slope.

622
00:35:45,020 --> 00:35:52,340
This could be like the push towards an actual ban or towards requiring ID for any platform, for instance.

623
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:03,100
I think it's very problematic, but like Nate said, there's some really good information here on the EFF's website.

624
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:08,040
There was also, I'm also following a fight for the future one as well.

625
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,260
They're also going against this sort of stuff.

626
00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:12,220
So it's worth checking out that.

627
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,380
It was, it was a page specifically for Australians as well.

628
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:24,200
And yeah, I think we should definitely try and because I think a lot of people

629
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,180
that I've talked to about this, they're actually in favor of it because

630
00:36:28,220 --> 00:36:31,500
they don't really understand the repercussions behind something like this.

631
00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:41,820
because it's actually kind of like, it's shrouded in language that a lot of people would want to agree with, right?

632
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,140
Like this is to protect children, this is, you know, this sort of stuff.

633
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:54,240
And I think that's important to kind of come out against if you can, to people in your life, to people that you talk to.

634
00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:58,420
Because, yeah, there's definitely some people who are...

635
00:37:00,260 --> 00:37:07,400
There was an interesting post I saw, and it was from one of the MPs in Australia,

636
00:37:07,740 --> 00:37:11,720
and he spelt Snapchat with a capital C.

637
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,100
Like, there's no capital C in Snapchat.

638
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,040
Like, these people don't even know what social media platforms are,

639
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,460
and they're enacting laws to ban them.

640
00:37:19,460 --> 00:37:27,980
Like, I think there should be more experts consulted on this than just politicians who

641
00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:32,860
don't really understand technology. They don't understand the repercussions of this sort of ban.

642
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:41,520
But I'm sure they did the calculations and they found that this would be

643
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,380
received positively by the public. So that's why they went ahead with it.

644
00:37:47,140 --> 00:37:50,540
But yeah, it's kind of all I have to say about that one.

645
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,680
Yeah, the slippery slope argument is like, it's really tough because sometimes it makes you

646
00:37:56,700 --> 00:38:01,280
sound kind of paranoid. And sometimes it doesn't come to true, you know, or it come to pass.

647
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:07,200
It's one of those things where everybody always makes that argument on both sides of an issue.

648
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,539
But yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm with you. I think it is a slippery slope. I think it puts

649
00:38:16,180 --> 00:38:22,180
It puts power in the hands of the government to be able to say, "This requires age-gaining,

650
00:38:22,270 --> 00:38:27,380
but this doesn't." Then they can update that list at any time to say, "Well, now this thing

651
00:38:28,220 --> 00:38:32,520
is not safe for children." You made a really good point that, again, this is a little bit

652
00:38:32,580 --> 00:38:40,800
conspiratorial, but any government will usually dress things up in a way that makes it very hard

653
00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:46,160
to argue with them. "Oh, this is for the safety of the children." Then when you come in and you're

654
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:47,060
I don't think this is a good idea.

655
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,420
The default response is, oh, so you hate kids.

656
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,660
And it's designed to like paint you in that negative light

657
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,240
when you go against the grain like that.

658
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,500
And it's kind of nefarious, but it's really intentional.

659
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:58,240
They know what they're doing.

660
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,300
But yeah, the last thing I want to touch on is

661
00:39:01,740 --> 00:39:04,200
what you said there about they don't even really know

662
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,540
how a lot of this stuff works.

663
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,680
And I don't know about Australian politics,

664
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,180
but in the US, that's certainly how it works.

665
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,340
It's a lot of the time somebody will come in

666
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,820
and say, we think there's a problem.

667
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:14,600
Here's our solution.

668
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:15,460
Here's this bill.

669
00:39:16,180 --> 00:39:17,500
And a lot of the time the politician,

670
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,220
'cause you know, to their defense, they're human.

671
00:39:19,580 --> 00:39:20,620
Nobody knows everything, right?

672
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:23,960
They probably have no idea about how any of this stuff works,

673
00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:25,400
but they're like, well, you made a good argument,

674
00:39:25,860 --> 00:39:27,320
you've got this bill, it's ready to go, sure,

675
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:28,260
I'll get behind it.

676
00:39:30,140 --> 00:39:32,460
And that's one of the reasons that it's really important

677
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,300
to try to get involved politically if you can,

678
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,620
is because a lot of the time, they may not know any better.

679
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,880
Like I really, I don't wanna let them off the hook too much

680
00:39:40,980 --> 00:39:43,740
'cause I'm very critical of politicians myself,

681
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,440
But I think a lot of the time we envision them

682
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,580
as like these evil like, you know,

683
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,220
like in a movie or a political thriller,

684
00:39:50,380 --> 00:39:52,860
they're like purposely just trying to make people suffer.

685
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,320
And it's like, no, a lot of them really think

686
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:55,400
they're making the world a better place.

687
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,160
And they have no idea that this is a genuine risk

688
00:39:58,260 --> 00:39:59,500
that has all these knock on effects

689
00:39:59,700 --> 00:40:02,020
or there's so many easy ways to get around it.

690
00:40:02,739 --> 00:40:04,240
And a lot of the time that's simply

691
00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:06,960
because there's nobody on the other side of the aisle

692
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,040
as citizens, there's nobody on the other side of this issue

693
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,320
coming up and saying, hey, this is a really bad idea.

694
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:13,740
And here's why I think you shouldn't do this.

695
00:40:14,940 --> 00:40:16,880
Not to shill it all the time, but I did mention

696
00:40:16,910 --> 00:40:20,440
on a previous live stream, Louis Rossman did a talk

697
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:22,060
for EFF Austin, which full disclosure,

698
00:40:22,220 --> 00:40:23,540
I'm a board member of EFF Austin.

699
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:25,760
But if you look up Louis Rossman, EFF Austin,

700
00:40:25,900 --> 00:40:28,600
he tells the story of that's exactly how he got involved

701
00:40:28,780 --> 00:40:32,000
in right to repair because he found out there was a law

702
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,520
that was going through and he went and talked

703
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,160
to the politician who was sponsoring the law.

704
00:40:36,820 --> 00:40:38,320
I might be getting the finer details wrong,

705
00:40:38,330 --> 00:40:39,660
but basically he went and talked to him

706
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:41,780
and they told him it's like, well, you know,

707
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,920
that other person came in and here's what they told me.

708
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,020
And Rossman was like, what are you talking about?

709
00:40:46,060 --> 00:40:47,320
That's not how any of this works.

710
00:40:48,060 --> 00:40:50,300
And the guy was like, the politician he was talking to,

711
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:51,820
he's like, son, I'm like 80 years old.

712
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:52,920
I don't know how any of this stuff works.

713
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,380
They came in, they made what sounded to me

714
00:40:55,460 --> 00:40:56,380
like a coherent argument.

715
00:40:56,940 --> 00:40:58,520
I believed them, you're the first person

716
00:40:58,620 --> 00:40:59,340
telling me otherwise.

717
00:40:59,860 --> 00:41:00,500
And that was the moment,

718
00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:03,420
and ultimately Lewis was able to win him over to his side.

719
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,300
But that was the moment that Lewis realized.

720
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,840
He's like, a lot of the time there is simply nobody there

721
00:41:08,380 --> 00:41:10,880
telling them why the other side is mistaken

722
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:19,540
in this thing and is, you know, yeah, it's just the point is like, if you can, and, oh,

723
00:41:19,620 --> 00:41:22,100
here's what I was going to say is like, you know, don't go in there and like attack them

724
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:25,600
and like, you're evil, but if you can get in there and show them like, hey, this is

725
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,580
why that person's wrong and this isn't a good idea.

726
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,820
I'm not saying it's 100%, but a lot of the time it can make a difference, especially

727
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,400
at the local, the local levels.

728
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:34,799
So yeah.

729
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:38,680
All right.

730
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:39,880
On that note.

731
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:40,000
What?

732
00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:43,740
Yeah, do you have anything to add or?

733
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,260
- No, yeah, we can move on to the next story here.

734
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,780
And this one is from Brave.

735
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,580
So Brave, this is published on December 10th,

736
00:41:56,740 --> 00:41:58,320
AI browsing in Brave Nightly,

737
00:41:58,540 --> 00:42:00,200
now available for early testing.

738
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,500
So this is kind of a surprise, I guess,

739
00:42:04,740 --> 00:42:08,000
because Brave browser has kind of built itself

740
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:14,900
like a privacy and security focused browser. And generally, when we think of AI browsing,

741
00:42:15,050 --> 00:42:21,920
we think of insecurity and privacy invasion. So this is certainly an interesting direction for

742
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:27,220
Brave to be putting their resources into. But we've kind of seen a similar thing happening

743
00:42:27,420 --> 00:42:31,440
with Firefox. So I'm just going to quote from the article here. "Today we're announcing the

744
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,140
the availability of Brave's new AI browsing feature in Brave Nile.

745
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,440
Our testing and development build channel for early experimentation and user feedback.

746
00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:47,220
When ready for general release, this "agentic experience" aims to turn the browser into

747
00:42:47,220 --> 00:42:52,120
a truly smart partner, automating tasks and helping people accomplish more.

748
00:42:52,750 --> 00:42:56,300
I feel like that's the buzzword of this year's "agentic".

749
00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:57,480
It's "agentic".

750
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,520
We added an "agentic agent".

751
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:06,200
However, agentic browsing is also inherently dangerous, giving an AI control of your browsing

752
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:13,000
experience could expose personal data or allow agentic AI to take unintended actions.

753
00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:17,960
Security measures are tricky to get right and disastrous when they fail.

754
00:43:18,490 --> 00:43:23,940
As we have shown through numerous vulnerabilities we found and responsibly disclosed over the

755
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:25,200
last few months.

756
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:34,660
to prompt injections, basically where a website can have a prompt on the page that can basically

757
00:43:35,460 --> 00:43:44,280
redirect the agentic AI to perform like a malicious attack against someone, are a systemic

758
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,760
challenge facing the entire category of AI-powered browsers. For this reason, we've chosen

759
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:55,960
a careful approach to releasing AI browsing in the Brave browser, soliciting input from

760
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:01,800
security researchers. We are offering AI browsing behind an opt-in feature flag in the nightly

761
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,280
version of Brave, which is the browser build we use for testing and development.

762
00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:12,160
We'll continue to build upon our defenses over time with feedback from the public.

763
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:18,880
At present, these safeguards include AI browsing is currently only in the nightly channel behind

764
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:25,940
an opt-in feature flag via Brave's integrated AI assistant, Leo. AI browsing happens only in an

765
00:44:25,940 --> 00:44:27,440
using a dedicated browsing profile,

766
00:44:27,940 --> 00:44:29,860
keeping your regular browsing data safe,

767
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,240
and AI browsing has restrictions and controls

768
00:44:33,460 --> 00:44:34,420
built into the browser,

769
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,760
AI browsing uses reasoning-based defenses

770
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,420
as an additional guardrail against malicious websites.

771
00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:44,820
The AI browsing experience has to be manually invoked,

772
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,320
ensuring that users retain complete control

773
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:48,720
over their browsing experience

774
00:44:48,810 --> 00:44:50,960
and likable AI features in Brave,

775
00:44:51,140 --> 00:44:53,260
AI browsing is completely optional,

776
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:55,100
by default.

777
00:44:57,940 --> 00:44:59,500
So what are your thoughts, Nate?

778
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,060
What are your initial thoughts here?

779
00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:04,580
- Yeah.

780
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:08,560
Well, my initial thought kind of goes back

781
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:09,740
to what you said at the very beginning

782
00:45:09,940 --> 00:45:12,160
where you said you're surprised

783
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,880
because AI is not typically something we think of

784
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,540
in the context of privacy and security.

785
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:19,720
And I agree with you for the record,

786
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:22,180
but I have noticed that Brave is trying

787
00:45:22,180 --> 00:45:26,740
to really, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too,

788
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,800
where they wanna be a privacy browser.

789
00:45:30,180 --> 00:45:33,480
And there's a lot of websites out there that show

790
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,180
that they do have actually really good privacy out of the box.

791
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,680
And I do believe that they're really innovative,

792
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,020
but I also question exactly how private AI can really be,

793
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,540
even with all of the stuff they've put into it.

794
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,040
I don't know, it's interesting for sure.

795
00:45:49,820 --> 00:45:51,220
I agree with you, like a gentic AI

796
00:45:51,220 --> 00:45:53,280
is definitely the buzzword of the year for sure.

797
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,180
And, you know, I really appreciate

798
00:45:56,380 --> 00:45:59,540
that a common criticism with Brave is it's got all the,

799
00:45:59,780 --> 00:46:00,960
the, you know, people call it blow.

800
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:02,900
It's got the AI stuff, it's got the crypto stuff.

801
00:46:02,980 --> 00:46:03,960
It's got all this stuff built in

802
00:46:04,020 --> 00:46:05,240
that people don't necessarily want.

803
00:46:06,700 --> 00:46:10,500
And I understand, I guess it's one of those things

804
00:46:10,580 --> 00:46:12,740
I think both people have really good points

805
00:46:12,820 --> 00:46:14,700
'cause some people will say like, well, just don't use it.

806
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:16,060
You know, you don't have to use any of it,

807
00:46:16,100 --> 00:46:16,900
which is totally true.

808
00:46:17,740 --> 00:46:20,500
Ironically, Brave, actually, I found this out recently,

809
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:24,480
Brave Shields has one to disable Brave's own AI summary

810
00:46:24,530 --> 00:46:25,080
and Brave Search.

811
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,220
So you can use Brave with Brave Search

812
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,960
and still disable the AI summary using their own shields,

813
00:46:32,180 --> 00:46:33,280
which is pretty cool.

814
00:46:33,290 --> 00:46:34,480
You can opt out of all this stuff,

815
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:36,760
but at the same time, I understand the argument of like,

816
00:46:36,860 --> 00:46:38,360
oh, you know, but the code is still there

817
00:46:38,450 --> 00:46:40,700
and it's kind of adding potential attack surface

818
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,200
and I don't know.

819
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,740
In regards to this specifically, I'm still,

820
00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:50,400
I'm not entirely convinced what use agentic browsing has,

821
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,960
especially this early in.

822
00:46:53,820 --> 00:46:56,800
It's one of those things where I personally wouldn't

823
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:02,360
trust it to do, I don't know, even simple things.

824
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,220
Like, you know, okay, I need a new coffee maker, you know,

825
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,960
go compare the top three brands or whatever.

826
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:09,860
And it's like, but how do I know those are still the best?

827
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,040
How do I know that's not paid advertising?

828
00:47:12,220 --> 00:47:13,240
How do I know you didn't summarize

829
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:14,200
something that wasn't there?

830
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,000
I've, I don't know if I've shared this story here before,

831
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:22,280
a long time ago, I was testing out LLMs to see like, Oh, let me see if these can improve

832
00:47:22,340 --> 00:47:28,140
my workflow in any way. And I was doing a review of Threema, I think. So I, um, I told

833
00:47:28,260 --> 00:47:31,280
an LLM, I can't even remember which one. I'm like, Hey, give me the pros and cons of the

834
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,140
messenger Threema. And one of the pros it said was it has a password manager built in.

835
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,800
And I was like, this is news to me. So I asked it. I'm like, Hey, what's your source for that?

836
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,440
And of course it couldn't tell me because this was one of those LLMs that doesn't cite

837
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,360
sources, but it went, oh, you're right. There is no password manager. And it's like, what? Like,

838
00:47:48,980 --> 00:47:52,220
you know, there's so many stories out there about like developers don't like using AI because they

839
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:56,460
have to go back and fact check it. It's just twice as much work. And so I don't know, but it could

840
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,740
also be one of those things where it gets better over time. And when Proton rolled out their LLM,

841
00:48:00,820 --> 00:48:05,040
they made the argument that like AI is not going anywhere. And we may as well give people private

842
00:48:06,319 --> 00:48:10,760
options, which I feel like maybe is what Brave is going for here is like, everybody's trying to jump

843
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,220
on the agentic AI bandwagon.

844
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:13,620
So maybe it's best to give them an option

845
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,620
that's slightly less crappy than all the other ones.

846
00:48:16,859 --> 00:48:18,420
But yeah, I don't know.

847
00:48:21,180 --> 00:48:22,460
Yeah, I will say this.

848
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,820
I feel like Brave has been, again,

849
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,000
has done a lot of innovative things in the privacy space

850
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,460
and they have been one of the biggest,

851
00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:33,500
I don't know if critic is the right word,

852
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:34,880
but like they said, we have shown through

853
00:48:35,180 --> 00:48:36,540
numerous vulnerabilities that we found

854
00:48:36,580 --> 00:48:38,360
and responsibly disclosed over the last few months

855
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,960
talking about the agentic browsing and other,

856
00:48:40,999 --> 00:48:42,800
the security and other agentic browsers.

857
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:46,220
So I feel like I wouldn't expect them to be perfect.

858
00:48:46,380 --> 00:48:48,320
I would definitely expect there to be mistakes in this,

859
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,980
for sure, some of which are just inherently

860
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:52,320
baked into AI itself.

861
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:54,540
But I gotta be honest,

862
00:48:54,590 --> 00:48:56,640
if I was gonna trust anybody with it, I would trust Brave.

863
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:57,860
I'm not saying you should use it,

864
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:59,120
I'm just saying if I had to,

865
00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:01,640
I would probably trust them first.

866
00:49:03,060 --> 00:49:05,460
- Yeah, they seem like at least so far,

867
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,480
like I am very much in the camp of not really wanting any of these features in my browser.

868
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:17,860
But this definitely seems like the best possible people to be doing this.

869
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,220
And it seems like they've thought about the security aspects.

870
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,340
But I guess before we talk about that a bit more,

871
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,100
sod this all, just sent a gift membership in the chat.

872
00:49:28,220 --> 00:49:29,720
So thank you very much.

873
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,000
And Supreme is 21, just receive that.

874
00:49:33,140 --> 00:49:35,100
So definitely say thank you to that person.

875
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:40,000
And Jonah also sent five Privacy Guides gift to memberships in the chat.

876
00:49:40,220 --> 00:49:42,840
So if you didn't get one of those, make sure to say thank you.

877
00:49:42,980 --> 00:49:47,100
And we also got another donation from Sod this all for two pounds.

878
00:49:48,519 --> 00:49:49,260
Enjoying the stream.

879
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:50,660
Keep up the good work.

880
00:49:51,380 --> 00:49:52,040
Thank you so much.

881
00:49:52,220 --> 00:49:53,000
That's so appreciated.

882
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,440
Oh, we're glad you're enjoying it so far.

883
00:49:59,740 --> 00:50:00,100
Yeah.

884
00:50:00,980 --> 00:50:04,400
Um, getting back to the article real quick, it does say, you know, they are open source.

885
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,120
They say we welcome bug reports and feature requests on GitHub.

886
00:50:07,900 --> 00:50:11,500
Uh, we encourage anyone who discovers a security issue to report that issue to

887
00:50:11,500 --> 00:50:14,520
our bug bounty program and they say they're actually doubling their usual reward

888
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,100
for now on hacker one.

889
00:50:16,500 --> 00:50:22,280
So, um, yeah, it seems like they've, uh, they've at least put some thought into

890
00:50:22,340 --> 00:50:22,540
this.

891
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,920
They talk about, cause I read this article earlier, they, they said, um, where was it?

892
00:50:27,580 --> 00:50:30,460
It uses reasoning based defenses as an additional guardrail.

893
00:50:30,660 --> 00:50:33,660
Um, maybe they're, they're talking about something else, but further down in the

894
00:50:33,660 --> 00:50:37,220
article, they talk about how there's basically like two LLMs working here.

895
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:45,140
And so when you tell Leo to go, you know, compare coffee pots or whatever, Leo

896
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,720
goes and gets the answer and then actually double checks with a second LLM and

897
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,440
is like, Hey, here's the answer I came up with.

898
00:50:52,180 --> 00:50:56,400
And then that LLM compares the prompt and the answer to kind of determine if

899
00:50:56,460 --> 00:50:58,680
it's in the ballpark or if something's really wrong.

900
00:50:59,380 --> 00:51:01,680
Um, this is very high level.

901
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,040
So they didn't go into like super, super detail, but, um,

902
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,320
and I really appreciate personally in this article, they keep saying over and

903
00:51:09,380 --> 00:51:12,660
over, like right here, despite its risks, it shows great promise.

904
00:51:14,380 --> 00:51:16,260
Um, whereas, oh no, here we go.

905
00:51:16,340 --> 00:51:18,840
While these mitigations help you significantly, users should know that

906
00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:21,200
safeguards do not eliminate risks such as prompt injection.

907
00:51:22,060 --> 00:51:27,140
Um, further down, they say, uh, where did it go?

908
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,820
Basically they say throughout this article, like, look, nothing is

909
00:51:31,820 --> 00:51:32,940
perfect, this has risks.

910
00:51:33,070 --> 00:51:34,540
And they're really trying to hammer it home.

911
00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:37,120
Like you need to understand this has risks

912
00:51:37,260 --> 00:51:38,020
if you're gonna use it.

913
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,420
And I don't think they ever say they're gonna get rid of it.

914
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,300
I think it's just something they're acknowledging,

915
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,620
but yeah, it's important to be aware of that,

916
00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:51,440
which unlike a lot of other browsers,

917
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,940
a lot of other companies are just trying to get the next dollar.

918
00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:56,100
They're trying to just roll this out as quick as possible,

919
00:51:56,220 --> 00:51:57,100
be first one to market.

920
00:51:57,210 --> 00:51:58,940
And it seems like they're trying to make sure

921
00:51:58,940 --> 00:51:59,780
that people know the risks,

922
00:51:59,940 --> 00:52:01,240
which I personally really appreciate.

923
00:52:03,660 --> 00:52:06,560
- Yeah, I think it's, I'm not in shock.

924
00:52:06,700 --> 00:52:10,100
Like I genuinely am wondering what these sort of features,

925
00:52:10,260 --> 00:52:12,680
like we've seen Firefox is also doing a similar thing,

926
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,640
like they're doing like a AI window.

927
00:52:16,260 --> 00:52:18,340
I think it's very similar to what Brave is doing.

928
00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:22,240
And it's, I guess my question would be,

929
00:52:22,620 --> 00:52:25,860
what, who uses this and why would I want to use this?

930
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,540
So I prefer personally, like I prefer to like,

931
00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:36,100
use the browser myself and would this really be saving me a lot of time? I'm just kind of questioning the

932
00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:42,480
the need for this, I guess. I definitely am not quite sure what

933
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:50,600
is this just because Brave wants to be on the same level as other browsers and also get that market share from people who like AI?

934
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:52,220
I'm not really sure.

935
00:52:53,840 --> 00:53:00,240
It certainly isn't particularly appealing to me, but I'm not really, maybe I'm not the target audience for this sort of feature,

936
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:06,260
but I feel like a lot of the extra features in Brave, I literally turn off every single feature that they've added.

937
00:53:06,380 --> 00:53:15,040
Like, I just don't use anything that they've added. I just want the browser to have a search bar and, yeah, I don't need like a weather widget.

938
00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:20,320
I don't need like a news tab. I don't need like a Brave VPN. I don't need like a Leo AI thing.

939
00:53:21,660 --> 00:53:28,780
So I don't know, I think if I was going to use Brave again, I would probably disable all of this.

940
00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:34,060
But yeah, it's not, I don't entirely understand it myself.

941
00:53:37,359 --> 00:53:41,220
Yeah, I'm with you. I disable all the crypto stuff. I disable the Brave news.

942
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:45,860
I mentioned I disabled the AI summaries and Brave search even.

943
00:53:46,660 --> 00:53:49,560
I do, I will admit I do use Leo sometimes,

944
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,880
but it's mostly for looking up like server errors.

945
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,180
I do a lot of self-hosting and I find it's,

946
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,060
I've had good luck with that, good success with that.

947
00:54:00,759 --> 00:54:03,360
But I'm with you in the sense that I like it to be separated.

948
00:54:03,460 --> 00:54:06,260
Like that's why I shut off the AI summaries in search

949
00:54:06,460 --> 00:54:09,280
because I found myself relying on them more than I wanted to.

950
00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:11,240
And I realized I was doing it.

951
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:12,180
And I'm like, no, I don't want to do that.

952
00:54:12,220 --> 00:54:13,400
I want to go to the actual source.

953
00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:16,640
I want to go to the website and get the full context

954
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:17,580
us this source or not.

955
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,840
And, uh, you know, it's one of those things where like, if I want the AI,

956
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,520
then I want to specifically open a Leo tab and go to that.

957
00:54:24,660 --> 00:54:27,140
I don't want it just integrated in that way.

958
00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:32,080
So the only thing I could personally think as a real use case for sure is maybe,

959
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:34,080
um, and I could be wrong here.

960
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,420
I could be projecting, but like, um, maybe if somebody's like differently

961
00:54:37,540 --> 00:54:40,720
abled and it's like, no, it's awesome that I can now send the browser out to,

962
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,240
like I said, compare like six different coffee pots.

963
00:54:43,460 --> 00:54:46,300
And that's easier for me because now I don't have to navigate

964
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:48,700
to every single website and that's a physical challenge.

965
00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:52,020
But I don't know, maybe there are other use cases,

966
00:54:52,340 --> 00:54:55,240
but yeah, I don't see myself really using it anytime soon.

967
00:54:56,110 --> 00:54:58,520
I might play around with it whenever it comes into stable,

968
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,080
but I just, like I said, I don't trust it

969
00:55:02,180 --> 00:55:04,140
to not make mistakes and just make double the work

970
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:05,460
where I have to go back and double check it.

971
00:55:05,620 --> 00:55:08,800
So I don't know how much I'm gonna end up using it.

972
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,000
- Yeah, no, that's actually a really good point

973
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,360
about the differently abled people.

974
00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:15,220
I guess I don't think about that

975
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,160
because I'm in a position where that doesn't affect me,

976
00:55:18,300 --> 00:55:20,520
but that is a really good point actually.

977
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,540
I do think that is kind of an important thing

978
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,920
that should be available, but also, yeah, I'm not sure if...

979
00:55:29,220 --> 00:55:34,100
Yeah, that might be tricky because I'm not sure what sort of...

980
00:55:35,180 --> 00:55:37,960
It is gonna be sending basically everything to an AI server,

981
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,900
So that could also be a privacy risk for those people too.

982
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,220
I think I would hope that this sort of feature

983
00:55:45,250 --> 00:55:48,060
could work on device, but it's pretty unlikely, right?

984
00:55:48,180 --> 00:55:51,740
It's a lot of processing power to like analyze screens

985
00:55:52,140 --> 00:55:54,920
and like do that sort of stuff.

986
00:55:55,060 --> 00:55:58,540
So it seems like that probably might not be the case.

987
00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:02,380
It's probably being offloaded to some open AI

988
00:56:02,580 --> 00:56:07,080
or Gemini or some other third party AI companies.

989
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:15,200
So it's kind of unfortunate that there isn't really anyone who's taking a privacy first approach, even Proton.

990
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,380
They've got their AI thing, but it's not a local model or anything.

991
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,080
It's running on their servers.

992
00:56:21,940 --> 00:56:24,920
And it really is just a pinky promise at that point.

993
00:56:27,140 --> 00:56:28,360
So yeah, I don't know.

994
00:56:28,620 --> 00:56:36,119
I'm not really the biggest fan of these features, but I think that the Brave team has done at least the due

995
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:40,660
diligence to try and make it, uh, not complete crap, like a lot of these AI

996
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:46,040
companies, um, like, uh, open AI or I don't really know the, all the other ones.

997
00:56:46,260 --> 00:56:48,300
Um, but yeah, it's, it's interesting.

998
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,360
Uh, comment whoever that one's from.

999
00:56:50,550 --> 00:56:50,680
Yeah.

1000
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:51,520
Yeah.

1001
00:56:51,620 --> 00:56:52,000
That one.

1002
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:52,240
Yeah.

1003
00:56:52,620 --> 00:56:53,360
Uh, Claude.

1004
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:54,000
Yeah.

1005
00:56:54,140 --> 00:56:56,280
Can't remember all of them off the top of my head, but yeah.

1006
00:56:56,940 --> 00:56:57,380
Um, yeah.

1007
00:56:58,180 --> 00:56:59,360
It's definitely interesting to see.

1008
00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:02,920
Agreed.

1009
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,100
All right, on that note, we're going to go back to some political stuff.

1010
00:57:09,780 --> 00:57:12,520
And we're going to talk about the U.S. planning to scrutinize foreign

1011
00:57:12,620 --> 00:57:14,180
tourist social media history.

1012
00:57:14,460 --> 00:57:18,100
And actually I've seen this article kind of make the rounds.

1013
00:57:18,380 --> 00:57:22,440
And I think they kind of buried the lead on this one because that is alarming,

1014
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:23,900
but it's not just that.

1015
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:28,900
So yeah, well, so I'm going to kind of start towards the beginning of this

1016
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:30,240
article here, this comes from the Guardian.

1017
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,980
And they say the mandatory new disclosures would apply to the 42 countries whose

1018
00:57:34,980 --> 00:57:36,900
currently permitted to enter the US without a visa,

1019
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:38,940
such as longtime US allies,

1020
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:41,980
Britain, France, Australia, Germany and Japan.

1021
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:44,080
So in a notice published on Tuesday,

1022
00:57:44,460 --> 00:57:46,160
Customs and Border Patrol said that it would require

1023
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,660
any telephone numbers used by visitors over the same period.

1024
00:57:49,100 --> 00:57:52,440
Any email addresses used in the last decade,

1025
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:54,920
they would really love me if I had to do this,

1026
00:57:55,460 --> 00:57:59,400
as well as face fingerprint DNA and iris biometrics.

1027
00:57:59,460 --> 00:58:00,020
So that's why I said,

1028
00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:01,800
I feel like a lot of people are bearing the lead

1029
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,280
because I haven't heard anybody mention that

1030
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:11,860
like any newspapers yet or any news outlets. I think privacy international mentioned that in

1031
00:58:11,860 --> 00:58:18,440
their headline. But yeah, I know DNA fingerprint biometrics, which I mean, you can make the argument

1032
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:22,800
that fingerprint and stuff like that, you or face at least you kind of give when you go through

1033
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,280
the airport anyways, because a lot of them use facial recognition nowadays, which you can opt

1034
00:58:26,420 --> 00:58:31,800
out of as an American citizen. TSA will get a little bit short with you sometimes if you do it,

1035
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:33,060
and they'll make you stand in the long line.

1036
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,060
But other than that, I haven't had any issues.

1037
00:58:36,739 --> 00:58:38,180
But DNA, I think, is a new one.

1038
00:58:38,380 --> 00:58:39,080
I can't remember that one.

1039
00:58:40,180 --> 00:58:41,320
The article goes on to say it would also

1040
00:58:41,380 --> 00:58:44,120
ask for the names, addresses, birth dates, and birth places

1041
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:45,940
of family members, including children.

1042
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,940
So now your loved ones are being put at risk just

1043
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:50,880
because you wanted to come visit.

1044
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,720
So yeah, this goes back to an executive order

1045
00:58:54,860 --> 00:58:56,640
that Trump signed on the first day of office.

1046
00:58:57,500 --> 00:59:00,160
Here on the second term, it says that it calls for restrictions

1047
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:01,560
to ensure visitors to the US quote,

1048
00:59:01,910 --> 00:59:04,620
do not bear hostile attitudes towards its citizens,

1049
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,200
culture, government institutions, or founding principles.

1050
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:10,320
And then the article just kind of goes on to talk about

1051
00:59:10,420 --> 00:59:13,040
how the US is supposed to host the World Cup this year.

1052
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:15,140
We're co-hosting it with Canada and Mexico.

1053
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,040
So there are concerns that this might cause

1054
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,320
like a dip in visitors for the US part of that.

1055
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,560
FIFA said they were expecting more than 5 million fans

1056
00:59:27,460 --> 00:59:28,580
across the whole thing.

1057
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,440
And they say that the US has already seen a dramatic drop

1058
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,420
in tourism on Trump's second term.

1059
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:41,180
So, yeah, there's just kind of a lot of statistics here.

1060
00:59:41,380 --> 00:59:43,700
California tourism authorities are predicting

1061
00:59:43,820 --> 00:59:46,040
a 9% decline in foreign visits to the state.

1062
00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:50,000
Hollywood Boulevard reports a 50% fall in foot traffic.

1063
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,200
Las Vegas has seen a rapid decline in visits.

1064
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,840
Canadian residents who made a return trip to the US by car

1065
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:57,840
dropped almost 37% in July.

1066
00:59:59,339 --> 01:00:01,340
Air travel from Canada 25%.

1067
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,260
So anyways, yeah, a point being like it goes on to say like,

1068
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:05,800
tourism is already kind of low

1069
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,400
and this is probably not gonna do any better.

1070
01:00:08,700 --> 01:00:11,980
And Jordan and I were talking about this a little bit

1071
01:00:12,020 --> 01:00:12,880
before recording actually.

1072
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:15,120
And it's such a tricky area

1073
01:00:15,130 --> 01:00:16,560
when you talk about this kind of political stuff

1074
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,360
because on the one hand, every country of course,

1075
01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:21,440
wants to make sure they're keeping the bad guys out, right?

1076
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:23,040
And they wanna make sure they're keeping out the people

1077
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:26,280
who have ill intentions when they come to the country.

1078
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,740
And especially in the wake of 9/11,

1079
01:00:29,020 --> 01:00:30,420
if you were old enough to remember that,

1080
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,140
I remember all this information coming out that like,

1081
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,440
yeah, these guys, anybody who spent five minutes

1082
01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:39,560
would have realized that these guys had bad intentions

1083
01:00:39,780 --> 01:00:41,120
and there were all kinds of red flags

1084
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,400
that didn't go off or nobody followed up on.

1085
01:00:44,020 --> 01:00:46,300
But it's just, I don't know, man,

1086
01:00:46,420 --> 01:00:48,880
there's, I feel like this is especially the DNA stuff.

1087
01:00:48,980 --> 01:00:50,160
Like the social media is already kind of,

1088
01:00:50,740 --> 01:00:52,420
but now you're talking about, you know,

1089
01:00:52,620 --> 01:00:54,320
family members, including children,

1090
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,420
all their information, DNA biometrics,

1091
01:00:57,630 --> 01:01:00,200
I really have to wonder at what point

1092
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,760
is this going just a little bit too far?

1093
01:01:03,940 --> 01:01:06,960
And I don't wanna get too far off topic,

1094
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,960
but I've heard Snowden talked about

1095
01:01:10,420 --> 01:01:12,060
one of the big problems they had at the NSA

1096
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,420
was an overwhelming amount of data

1097
01:01:14,620 --> 01:01:15,920
and the inability to parse it.

1098
01:01:16,620 --> 01:01:18,480
And I have to wonder if that's kind of a point

1099
01:01:18,540 --> 01:01:19,120
they're gonna hit too,

1100
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:20,940
where they're taking in so much data, it's like, cool.

1101
01:01:21,420 --> 01:01:23,240
Now that we've got 500 data points

1102
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:24,880
on every single person coming into the US,

1103
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:26,800
we can't get through all the noise

1104
01:01:26,900 --> 01:01:28,440
to find the actual problem people

1105
01:01:28,580 --> 01:01:29,580
because it's just too much data.

1106
01:01:33,380 --> 01:01:35,200
- I don't know if you have any thoughts on this story.

1107
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:37,780
- I mean, I think I would say,

1108
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:41,320
people I've talked to,

1109
01:01:41,700 --> 01:01:43,980
just like the general sentiment that I've had was,

1110
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:46,920
people are a little bit cautious

1111
01:01:47,140 --> 01:01:48,680
about entering the United States

1112
01:01:48,860 --> 01:01:51,220
for a large amount of reasons.

1113
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:56,620
And I think this sort of thing is not really helping things.

1114
01:01:57,580 --> 01:01:59,480
I think people, once they learn,

1115
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,400
you've got to unprivate your social media accounts,

1116
01:02:04,580 --> 01:02:07,160
let them search through everything, give DNA swabs,

1117
01:02:07,420 --> 01:02:11,560
fingerprint scans, biometric scans.

1118
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:14,180
This is sort of the stuff that,

1119
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,740
I think a lot of countries where there's more

1120
01:02:19,500 --> 01:02:20,640
repression of citizens.

1121
01:02:22,599 --> 01:02:28,520
That's a lot of people would say is, you know, that's you're infringing on people's freedoms.

1122
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:39,320
And I think America, people assume that it's a free country, but there's this sort of stuff where if you want to enter the country, you have to give DNA swabs face scans.

1123
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:48,960
Social media history, like this is not really looking like a country that cares about the freedom of the people that want to visit.

1124
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,260
And I don't know, it's it's definitely kind of concerning.

1125
01:02:54,400 --> 01:03:00,640
But the way I understand it, right, is you don't have to be like an American citizen to be protected

1126
01:03:00,780 --> 01:03:06,280
by, you know, the Constitution and all of those things, right? The laws apply to tourists as well,

1127
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:14,160
correct? I would have to check with my aforementioned lawyer friend, but I actually don't. I think

1128
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:20,160
certain things do and certain things don't. Okay, yeah, I think that's certainly something that I

1129
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:29,780
was thinking of. Yeah, it's a bit of a, this is for the visa process, is that correct? You need to

1130
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:34,520
provide this information for the visa process. It's not even to like enter the country. I don't think

1131
01:03:34,620 --> 01:03:39,280
so because no, because it says the new disclosures would apply to the 42 countries whose nationals

1132
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:46,900
are currently permitted without a visa. I see. So this is basically applying to everyone then,

1133
01:03:47,020 --> 01:03:52,580
in that case, right? I think so, because yeah, I think the visa, the process to get a visa,

1134
01:03:52,700 --> 01:03:58,700
I think is even more strict. Wow. And is this just for, this is just for tourism. Like, you have to

1135
01:03:58,740 --> 01:04:06,640
give all this information for tourism. Yeah, just to come visit, which I mean, obviously, I am an

1136
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:11,120
American citizen, so I haven't been on that side of things, but like I went to Europe a couple months ago and

1137
01:04:11,860 --> 01:04:17,240
you know, it was just for a couple or not even a couple weeks. It was like 10 days. I didn't have to get a visa or anything. So like

1138
01:04:18,340 --> 01:04:22,780
I kind of have been a little bit on that other side of this fence where I get to

1139
01:04:23,890 --> 01:04:28,440
you know, not in the turning over social media and stuff, but yeah, like it's you know,

1140
01:04:29,940 --> 01:04:34,800
I don't know. It's just it's weird to think about if I were had I gone to Europe and when I get to Amsterdam, you know

1141
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,840
to go through the port of entry and they're like, okay, unlock your Facebook.

1142
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:41,320
And especially someone like me, how do I explain that?

1143
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:42,360
Like, okay, what's your Facebook?

1144
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:43,000
I don't have one.

1145
01:04:43,740 --> 01:04:44,300
What about Instagram?

1146
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:45,060
I don't have one of them.

1147
01:04:46,100 --> 01:04:48,320
What's your, you know, like people already give me weird looks when I'm like,

1148
01:04:48,420 --> 01:04:49,360
I don't have any of this stuff.

1149
01:04:49,740 --> 01:04:54,340
But and then, you know, I don't know if I get caught not telling them about my

1150
01:04:54,380 --> 01:04:55,140
mastodon account.

1151
01:04:56,620 --> 01:04:57,580
That's probably not a good look.

1152
01:04:58,480 --> 01:04:59,120
So yeah.

1153
01:04:59,500 --> 01:04:59,760
Yeah.

1154
01:04:59,820 --> 01:05:04,780
I think if you've made any comments, criticizing the US government or

1155
01:05:04,780 --> 01:05:12,580
the US in general, that would probably, I don't know, that seems like that could be a reason to deny you entry into the country.

1156
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:21,980
And I don't know, just to put a different perspective on this as well, I don't know if anyone's ever, people always talk about, you know, China is quite strict on this sort of stuff.

1157
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,820
But even China doesn't require this sort of information to enter the country, right?

1158
01:05:27,220 --> 01:05:33,180
So this is kind of, I feel like this is almost like global precedent at this point.

1159
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,740
Like I actually have never heard of a country requiring this much information just to go

1160
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,440
there as a tourist, not even to live there, just as a tourist.

1161
01:05:42,620 --> 01:05:45,320
So yeah, this is definitely kind of concerning.

1162
01:05:47,220 --> 01:05:51,560
And it's just, for me at least, it's just another reason why I would never go there.

1163
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:53,900
No offense to any Americans.

1164
01:05:54,060 --> 01:06:00,540
I think you have an amazing country, but um, that's it's just yeah, it's a tricky. It's a tricky situation

1165
01:06:02,980 --> 01:06:03,440
To the uh

1166
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:08,760
To the defense of the china critics, I think china still does it they just don't tell you you just show up there

1167
01:06:08,790 --> 01:06:11,480
And then find out you have to turn around and go home because they saw your twitter

1168
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:15,800
Um, I could be wrong, but yeah

1169
01:06:16,900 --> 01:06:19,440
I don't know. I don't we we were talking about this a little bit before earlier

1170
01:06:19,510 --> 01:06:22,940
I don't want to be too political, but I do you know, I wasn't the military and i'm

1171
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,800
I've never been an overly patriotic person, but I'm really worried about the direction

1172
01:06:28,180 --> 01:06:29,320
that we're headed in America.

1173
01:06:29,780 --> 01:06:32,040
This kind of stuff is a big part of that.

1174
01:06:33,300 --> 01:06:38,520
Like you said, this is ridiculous for a democratic, open country.

1175
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:41,920
We've already seen people turned away at the border.

1176
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:48,460
There was a guy, a French person, a scientist of some kind, who flew to the US for a conference

1177
01:06:48,460 --> 01:06:54,800
earlier this year flew into Houston and they said that he had a like anti-American extremist

1178
01:06:54,860 --> 01:06:57,260
content and to be fair, they never disclosed what it was.

1179
01:06:57,430 --> 01:07:01,580
So I mean, maybe it was like really bad stuff, although I find it a little bit hard to believe.

1180
01:07:02,460 --> 01:07:05,660
Maybe it was just, I don't like that guy, you know, there's, there's unfortunately, there's

1181
01:07:05,660 --> 01:07:12,000
a lot of stories out there and we're living in a very difficult time where the veracity

1182
01:07:12,500 --> 01:07:14,400
of a lot of claims is up for debate.

1183
01:07:14,940 --> 01:07:19,600
So it's really hard to parse through this stuff, but I think this is setting very dangerous

1184
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:25,280
precedents when you make these overly broad, like, you know, hostile attitudes towards

1185
01:07:25,380 --> 01:07:27,280
its citizen culture, government or institutions.

1186
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:31,780
Like, I don't know, that's kind of one of the freedoms I enjoy as an American is to criticize

1187
01:07:31,980 --> 01:07:34,740
my government, which I've been doing regardless of party for the last several years.

1188
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,020
So I don't know, I'm probably getting a little too political, but yeah, it's just, we're

1189
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:40,220
not heading in a good direction.

1190
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:45,060
Um, it's scary from a, from a privacy perspective, for sure.

1191
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:46,620
Yeah.

1192
01:07:46,740 --> 01:07:52,220
Also just from a general like freedom perspective, this is kind of concerning.

1193
01:07:52,700 --> 01:08:00,540
Um, I think everyone can sort of regardless of your political alignments say that this

1194
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,400
is not really a great, uh, aspect in terms of people's privacy.

1195
01:08:04,580 --> 01:08:05,660
This is kind of invasive.

1196
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:10,440
it's collecting too much information just to enter the country.

1197
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,160
Um, I feel like that's a reasonable position to take on this, um,

1198
01:08:14,260 --> 01:08:17,200
regardless of what you think about whether this is a good idea or not.

1199
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:22,819
Um, but yeah, I don't, I don't really have too much more to add on this

1200
01:08:22,940 --> 01:08:25,960
unless there's something you could add from a more American perspective.

1201
01:08:29,660 --> 01:08:30,020
No.

1202
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:35,020
Um, yeah, I just not, not to give it a pass, but going back to what I said,

1203
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:40,279
I see the argument of having to, trying to weed out the bad guys, but I just wonder about

1204
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:41,359
the efficacy of this.

1205
01:08:41,390 --> 01:08:45,339
And you know, the question that I've always asked in the past is like, what are we giving

1206
01:08:45,440 --> 01:08:46,920
up in exchange for something?

1207
01:08:47,109 --> 01:08:50,180
You know, we want to keep the children safe, but if we're taking away all their rights,

1208
01:08:50,460 --> 01:08:51,839
is it really a worthwhile trade off?

1209
01:08:51,930 --> 01:08:55,020
Like how much are we improving their safety versus how much we're taking away?

1210
01:08:55,690 --> 01:08:57,240
And I feel like that really applies here.

1211
01:08:58,580 --> 01:09:03,440
How much are we weeding out the bad guys and keeping the country safe in exchange for violating

1212
01:09:03,440 --> 01:09:06,060
so many people's privacy. That's very concerning to me.

1213
01:09:08,420 --> 01:09:08,859
Yeah.

1214
01:09:10,740 --> 01:09:15,200
All right. I believe our next story will take us to India.

1215
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:22,240
Yes. So India considers enforcing a GPS on mobile devices.

1216
01:09:22,900 --> 01:09:25,420
So this is sort of a quick little story here.

1217
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:28,440
India's government is considering a proposal to force

1218
01:09:28,440 --> 01:09:34,900
smartphone manufacturers to enable GPS tracking at all times. This is just a short write up on

1219
01:09:34,900 --> 01:09:42,279
the privacyguides.org/news category by Fria. So the proposal comes courtesy of the Cellular

1220
01:09:42,580 --> 01:09:50,460
Operators Association of India, a non-governmental trade association representing reliance. Okay,

1221
01:09:50,460 --> 01:09:56,500
I'm not going to try. Just you can see on the screen. Some of the biggest Indian telecom companies,

1222
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:00,840
The proposal is a response to the Modi administration's

1223
01:10:01,500 --> 01:10:05,220
rostrations that they often don't get precise locations when making legal

1224
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:09,480
requests to telecom firms, since they rely on cellular tower

1225
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,100
triangulation, which isn't always very precise.

1226
01:10:14,740 --> 01:10:20,880
So AGPS is Assisted Global Positioning System is a form of GPS that combines

1227
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:25,560
a satellite-based GPS with some other technology like Celia Network and

1228
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:31,280
nearby Wi-Fi access points to achieve a much more precise location than either technology

1229
01:10:31,580 --> 01:10:38,160
could achieve alone. The proposal would see to it that smartphone users can't disable

1230
01:10:38,230 --> 01:10:43,500
the technology. This would mean that the location services would always have to be enabled without

1231
01:10:43,510 --> 01:10:50,400
an option to turn them off. Apple, Google and Samsung all oppose the move on the grounds

1232
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:58,520
that a GPS network services is not deployed or supported for location surveillance, and

1233
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:04,000
that the move would be a regulatory overreach, according to a letter from the Indian Cellular

1234
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:10,580
and Electronics Association, a different non-governmental organization representing Apple and Google.

1235
01:11:11,180 --> 01:11:15,600
India's government has scheduled to meet with the top smartphone manufacturers to discuss

1236
01:11:15,670 --> 01:11:19,560
the matter, but the meeting was postponed for unknown reasons.

1237
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:23,000
at this point, no decision has been made.

1238
01:11:23,820 --> 01:11:26,880
So I think one interesting thing we've seen with India

1239
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:33,600
is they sort of have been pretty ready to sort of implement

1240
01:11:33,820 --> 01:11:35,280
these surveillance things.

1241
01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:38,700
Like I know they've got quite a comprehensive digital ID system

1242
01:11:39,780 --> 01:11:42,020
and that's certainly a bit of an issue

1243
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:44,760
with a lot of surveillance things.

1244
01:11:45,940 --> 01:12:02,760
But I think the ability to get even more precise location from this AGPS thing is, I don't know, it just seems a bit, it's like you're treating every single person as a suspect at that point.

1245
01:12:02,860 --> 01:12:07,320
Like every single person has got to be tracked, their location is to be recorded by the government.

1246
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:14,940
That seems like, I feel like that's like 1984, you know, like that's like, that's like kind of like dystopian, you know.

1247
01:12:15,460 --> 01:12:19,960
But it seems that the Indian government doesn't appear to think so.

1248
01:12:21,380 --> 01:12:25,060
It says here, Apple plan to outright refuse the order and the Indian

1249
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:28,260
government quickly backed down and reversed the requirement.

1250
01:12:29,900 --> 01:12:33,640
So it was because the manufacturers would have to install a government app by default

1251
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,700
and it wouldn't be able to be removed by users.

1252
01:12:38,460 --> 01:12:43,960
Basically, that app would be able to provide the location tracking at all times.

1253
01:12:44,620 --> 01:12:47,680
So yeah, it's a bit of an issue, right?

1254
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:50,920
Especially when there's these governments trying to strong arm

1255
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:55,460
like smartphone manufacturers into like implementing these tracking measures.

1256
01:12:57,700 --> 01:13:03,180
I think it's quite a bit of a problem, especially when this is so wide

1257
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:06,420
reaching in society, like every single person is going to have to have their

1258
01:13:06,500 --> 01:13:08,860
device location tracked at all times.

1259
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:13,380
It's it's it's problematic in a lot of ways.

1260
01:13:14,220 --> 01:13:14,560
But yeah.

1261
01:13:18,180 --> 01:13:18,460
Yeah.

1262
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:21,980
I don't have a lot of thoughts on this that you didn't already state.

1263
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,740
It's India's going a little bit hard in the paint right now with, uh,

1264
01:13:26,060 --> 01:13:27,960
trying to really force things on their citizens.

1265
01:13:28,260 --> 01:13:31,240
And like you said, originally it was this, this app, this, uh,

1266
01:13:31,740 --> 01:13:33,940
Sanchar Sathi, which I'd probably mispronounced that.

1267
01:13:33,950 --> 01:13:36,460
And I apologized to all the Indian listeners, but they were like, oh,

1268
01:13:36,500 --> 01:13:37,780
it's this cybersecurity app.

1269
01:13:37,900 --> 01:13:39,680
And then they backed down from that.

1270
01:13:39,740 --> 01:13:41,420
And they were like, oh, well, you know, everybody downloaded it.

1271
01:13:41,500 --> 01:13:41,920
So it's cool.

1272
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:42,920
And then they were like, Oh,

1273
01:13:43,460 --> 01:13:46,300
But now encrypted messengers need to link to a SIM.

1274
01:13:46,620 --> 01:13:52,900
And that also, I believe, got repealed, at least informally,

1275
01:13:52,980 --> 01:13:53,640
got repealed.

1276
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:59,000
And now they're like, oh, but now this assisted GPS tracking.

1277
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:00,740
And it's just--

1278
01:14:01,060 --> 01:14:01,300
I don't know.

1279
01:14:01,380 --> 01:14:02,300
It's really weird.

1280
01:14:02,330 --> 01:14:03,900
And the fact that they keep--

1281
01:14:04,440 --> 01:14:05,700
it's the fact that it keeps happening.

1282
01:14:06,900 --> 01:14:08,660
The cynical part of me wants to make the joke.

1283
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:10,400
It's like, don't you know you're supposed to put a few months

1284
01:14:10,450 --> 01:14:11,940
of space in between all these attempts?

1285
01:14:12,540 --> 01:14:19,160
Like the fact that it just keeps happening like every other week and it's like something different every time it's like, what is going on there?

1286
01:14:19,260 --> 01:14:25,180
It's you know, earlier I talked about giving politicians the benefit of the doubt, but I'm having a hard time doing it here for sure.

1287
01:14:26,620 --> 01:14:27,420
So yeah.

1288
01:14:27,580 --> 01:14:31,440
Yeah, I don't I feel like we don't have to explain why this is a problem, right?

1289
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:35,280
Like having everyone's location monitored by the government at all times.

1290
01:14:36,500 --> 01:14:42,120
I feel like most reasonable people would be against this, but apparently the Indian government thinks that this is completely reasonable.

1291
01:14:42,300 --> 01:14:52,240
So I don't know, but I think it's, I think if you live in India, you need to really make

1292
01:14:52,340 --> 01:14:55,440
a stink about this because this is like, this is mass surveillance.

1293
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,020
Like that is by the letter mass surveillance.

1294
01:14:59,100 --> 01:15:04,480
So definitely, definitely, I'm not too familiar with Indian politics.

1295
01:15:04,740 --> 01:15:08,800
So I'm not really sure what avenues you might have to, to fight against this.

1296
01:15:10,020 --> 01:15:12,340
But I've definitely do some research on that.

1297
01:15:13,060 --> 01:15:15,040
I can't really provide any info on that, unfortunately.

1298
01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:22,860
- Yeah, they do, I know they do elections

1299
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:25,160
because I know their elections last for like a month.

1300
01:15:25,460 --> 01:15:28,240
Like it's a pretty intense process.

1301
01:15:28,500 --> 01:15:29,920
So they definitely have elected officials.

1302
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:33,460
So I would imagine there is a way to contact them, I hope.

1303
01:15:36,580 --> 01:15:36,980
All right.

1304
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:41,460
And that'll take us to our next story, which is,

1305
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:46,140
this is a big deal.

1306
01:15:46,740 --> 01:15:47,940
I'm a little bit surprised

1307
01:15:47,990 --> 01:15:49,740
'cause when I first heard about this, I was like,

1308
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:52,280
"Oh no, this is gonna be like the next just never ending,

1309
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:57,360
never ending vulnerability that we keep hearing about."

1310
01:15:57,360 --> 01:16:00,740
But so far, I feel like it's been a little bit quieter

1311
01:16:00,820 --> 01:16:01,340
than I expected.

1312
01:16:01,460 --> 01:16:02,600
Not to say it's not bad,

1313
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:04,320
it's just been quieter than I expected.

1314
01:16:04,460 --> 01:16:09,180
So anyways, there's a new vulnerability called React to Shell

1315
01:16:09,620 --> 01:16:14,340
and I do apologize that I'm kind of reading this story

1316
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:15,280
in real time.

1317
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:17,100
This was kind of a last minute story for me,

1318
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:21,220
but there's this new remote code execution

1319
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:24,340
that has exposed over 77,000 IP addresses

1320
01:16:25,020 --> 01:16:27,260
and has breached over 30 organizations.

1321
01:16:27,570 --> 01:16:28,780
So again, it is a big deal.

1322
01:16:29,100 --> 01:16:30,440
I was just expecting to see it in my head

1323
01:16:30,480 --> 01:16:31,160
lacks a lot more.

1324
01:16:32,300 --> 01:16:35,120
So this is an unauthenticated remote code execution vulnerability

1325
01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:37,900
that can be exploited via a single HTTP request

1326
01:16:38,020 --> 01:16:40,760
and affects all frameworks that implement React server components,

1327
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:45,140
which includes Next.js, which is very popular.

1328
01:16:46,620 --> 01:16:47,360
So yeah, it...

1329
01:16:48,020 --> 01:16:50,800
Bleeping Computer likes to get really, really deep in the weeds

1330
01:16:51,020 --> 01:16:53,060
on a lot of these kind of vulnerabilities.

1331
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:55,520
So I'm probably not going to read the whole article

1332
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,820
because they get very technical.

1333
01:16:59,660 --> 01:17:03,280
But I do know that next.js is a very big vulnerability,

1334
01:17:04,020 --> 01:17:06,600
or not vulnerability, excuse me, a library, I believe.

1335
01:17:06,740 --> 01:17:08,740
It's something that I know gets used quite a lot.

1336
01:17:09,860 --> 01:17:11,820
So React is close, I'm sorry.

1337
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:16,000
Yeah, yeah, it's a very popular one.

1338
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,420
So React disclosed the vulnerability on December 3rd

1339
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:22,500
and explained that unsafe deserialization

1340
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:24,400
of client-controlled data inside React

1341
01:17:24,980 --> 01:17:27,280
enables attackers to trigger remote code execution

1342
01:17:27,480 --> 01:17:28,180
without authentication.

1343
01:17:28,440 --> 01:17:31,740
So basically, for those who don't understand remote code

1344
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:33,960
execution, it's remote.

1345
01:17:34,440 --> 01:17:36,440
They don't have to have physical access to your device

1346
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:39,380
or anything like that, as long as they can get access

1347
01:17:39,540 --> 01:17:39,900
to the server.

1348
01:17:40,500 --> 01:17:42,320
I have seen a few of the projects that I follow

1349
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:45,080
have been pushing out updates that specifically

1350
01:17:45,260 --> 01:17:48,640
in the patch notes say like, this is to fix the React,

1351
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:50,120
what is it called?

1352
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:50,980
React to Shell Flaw.

1353
01:17:51,220 --> 01:17:54,260
So I'm glad to see some people are responding to this.

1354
01:17:54,480 --> 01:17:58,440
So on December 4th, a security researcher

1355
01:17:58,560 --> 01:17:59,960
published a working proof of concept

1356
01:18:00,300 --> 01:18:01,600
demonstrating the command execution

1357
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:02,600
against unpatched servers.

1358
01:18:02,950 --> 01:18:05,100
And soon after scanning for the flaw accelerated

1359
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:06,560
as attackers and researchers began.

1360
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:10,800
So this is one of the reasons that responsible disclosure,

1361
01:18:11,080 --> 01:18:13,020
and I'm not saying this person didn't responsibly disclose,

1362
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:14,500
I don't know the details on that,

1363
01:18:14,890 --> 01:18:16,920
but this is one of the reasons that responsible disclosure

1364
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:19,020
is such a big deal in the security community

1365
01:18:19,100 --> 01:18:21,560
because once you go public with the details,

1366
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:23,839
especially like detail detail of how this works

1367
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:24,480
and approve a concept.

1368
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:27,280
They like literally the next day,

1369
01:18:27,340 --> 01:18:28,800
I start seeing articles in my newsfeed

1370
01:18:28,860 --> 01:18:31,220
about like all of a sudden scans have gone up

1371
01:18:31,230 --> 01:18:32,940
and attackers are trying to find people

1372
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:37,440
who are using this outdated server or server software

1373
01:18:37,540 --> 01:18:39,660
or whatever, we see that kind of stuff a lot.

1374
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:43,200
So yeah, the researchers determined

1375
01:18:43,340 --> 01:18:44,660
that IP addresses were vulnerable

1376
01:18:44,940 --> 01:18:46,620
using a detection technique

1377
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:49,040
where an HTTP request was sent to servers

1378
01:18:49,050 --> 01:18:51,639
to exploit the flaw and a specific response

1379
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:53,580
was checked to confirm whether the device was vulnerable.

1380
01:18:54,180 --> 01:18:55,720
So again, they could do this automated scanning

1381
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:56,580
to see who was vulnerable.

1382
01:18:58,580 --> 01:19:01,380
Gray noise recorded 181 distinct IP addresses

1383
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:04,140
attempting to exploit the PLAW over the past 24 hours

1384
01:19:04,180 --> 01:19:05,340
at the time this article was written.

1385
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:08,260
Scans are primarily originating from the Netherlands, China,

1386
01:19:08,440 --> 01:19:11,000
the US, Hong Kong, and a small number of other countries.

1387
01:19:11,380 --> 01:19:12,500
So that's interesting, Netherlands.

1388
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:14,420
Did not expect to see them pop up on this.

1389
01:19:15,460 --> 01:19:17,580
Palo Alto Networks reports more than 30 organizations

1390
01:19:17,900 --> 01:19:18,980
have already been compromised.

1391
01:19:19,440 --> 01:19:21,500
Attackers exploiting the vulnerability to run commands,

1392
01:19:21,620 --> 01:19:24,600
conduct reconnaissance and attempt to steal configuration and credential files.

1393
01:19:25,540 --> 01:19:30,180
And some of these compromises are linked to known state associated threat

1394
01:19:30,260 --> 01:19:34,780
actors. So yeah, let's see here.

1395
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:38,960
Let's see, Cloudflare has rolled out.

1396
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:41,380
No, you're good.

1397
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:44,820
I just noticed in the United States, there was 24,000.

1398
01:19:45,020 --> 01:19:46,720
That's like the highest out of every other country.

1399
01:19:46,900 --> 01:19:48,000
And just thought that was interesting.

1400
01:19:49,780 --> 01:19:51,540
Yeah, that surprises me too.

1401
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:54,820
I wonder if they've got to be using VPNs or something, I think.

1402
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:02,020
So yeah, it says here further down in the article, because again, I'm skipping over

1403
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:03,480
some of the more technical details.

1404
01:20:05,140 --> 01:20:09,020
But if you're a tech savvy person who wants those details, definitely check those out.

1405
01:20:09,020 --> 01:20:13,280
Because again, bleeping computer usually digs deep into the step by step.

1406
01:20:14,380 --> 01:20:17,620
They say that Cloudflare has already rolled out emergency detections and mitigations.

1407
01:20:18,660 --> 01:20:20,820
However, it inadvertently caused an outage.

1408
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:24,640
So if some of the websites you use earlier this week kind of went down for a little

1409
01:20:24,660 --> 01:20:30,720
bit, that could be why CISA has added the CVE to their known exploited

1410
01:20:30,820 --> 01:20:35,380
vulnerabilities catalog and is requiring federal agencies to patch by December 26th,

1411
01:20:35,440 --> 01:20:39,520
which is a very generous timeline in my opinion, but maybe I'm wrong.

1412
01:20:41,340 --> 01:20:42,540
Um, let's see here.

1413
01:20:42,620 --> 01:20:42,820
Yeah.

1414
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:48,420
So we, uh, we see these kind of vulnerabilities happen from time to time.

1415
01:20:48,580 --> 01:20:53,240
It's, you know, if, if, uh, if one organization uses a certain

1416
01:20:53,480 --> 01:20:56,900
library or a certain, uh, framework in this case, you know, then.

1417
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:00,300
Unfortunately, everybody who uses it could be exposed.

1418
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:04,280
So thankfully, like I said, I haven't seen too many.

1419
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:08,000
What I've seen a lot in the past is one thing happens.

1420
01:21:08,700 --> 01:21:11,900
And then every single week for six months, there's like six new companies

1421
01:21:11,940 --> 01:21:14,480
are like, Oh, we had a data breach because of this third party thing.

1422
01:21:15,620 --> 01:21:22,360
I personally have not seen that yet, but also I guess this is still pretty early and could still end up happening.

1423
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:28,880
So yeah, hopefully a lot of the projects you use are patching for listeners out there.

1424
01:21:29,180 --> 01:21:35,560
They definitely should be because I believe this vulnerability was rated like a maximum severity rating.

1425
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:37,960
Like this is like a severity 10 vulnerability.

1426
01:21:38,420 --> 01:21:40,680
So like they 100% should be.

1427
01:21:41,940 --> 01:21:45,900
And I would hope that everyone is rolling out fixes sooner rather than later,

1428
01:21:46,020 --> 01:21:48,100
like not the 26th of December.

1429
01:21:48,220 --> 01:21:49,400
That's kind of a long time.

1430
01:21:50,620 --> 01:21:51,660
Yeah, that's like three weeks away.

1431
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:52,160
That's crazy.

1432
01:21:53,420 --> 01:21:56,240
Yeah, especially for like a remote code execution vulnerability.

1433
01:21:56,580 --> 01:21:58,300
That's quite a long time.

1434
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:01,360
And I think there are versions rolling out now that have got the

1435
01:22:02,940 --> 01:22:03,640
that have it fixed.

1436
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:06,700
So I think all it requires is just to make sure you've updated.

1437
01:22:09,500 --> 01:22:16,320
So that might be more difficult in some organizations or might be more easy in some organizations.

1438
01:22:16,620 --> 01:22:17,520
So it kind of makes sense.

1439
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:31,540
But yeah, this also affected like other things that like include or depend on the React server, basically.

1440
01:22:32,540 --> 01:22:42,960
So I think the ones that I listed here is the React Router, Waku, RSC, Plugin RSC, RW, SDK, and Next.js.

1441
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:52,460
So I guess if there's anyone who's like a developer or anything like that, you'd probably know by now, unfortunately.

1442
01:22:53,180 --> 01:22:58,320
But yeah, it's definitely an unfortunate vulnerability

1443
01:22:58,780 --> 01:23:02,800
and definitely hope that people are updating

1444
01:23:03,140 --> 01:23:05,940
their backend stuff right away.

1445
01:23:08,350 --> 01:23:09,780
- I just wanted to say I went and checked,

1446
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:12,860
followed several links and yeah,

1447
01:23:13,020 --> 01:23:15,140
that's a 10.0 vulnerability.

1448
01:23:16,140 --> 01:23:16,640
That's crazy.

1449
01:23:16,780 --> 01:23:19,380
I don't know that I've seen one of those before personally.

1450
01:23:20,480 --> 01:23:22,520
I've seen a lot of like nine point somethings,

1451
01:23:22,580 --> 01:23:25,800
But wow, 10 is I think as high as the scale goes.

1452
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:30,240
- Yeah, definitely a pretty bad one.

1453
01:23:32,100 --> 01:23:34,600
Oh, we just got another five privacy guides,

1454
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:37,240
memberships gifted by Jonah.

1455
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:40,520
So if you got one of those, make sure to say thank you.

1456
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:42,460
Thanks, Jonah, for that.

1457
01:23:45,180 --> 01:23:46,080
- Jonah's so generous.

1458
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:48,680
- 10 gifted memberships, oh my goodness.

1459
01:23:50,340 --> 01:23:50,780
- I know.

1460
01:23:53,380 --> 01:23:53,540
Yeah.

1461
01:23:55,270 --> 01:23:55,520
All right.

1462
01:23:56,320 --> 01:24:02,040
I think it's time to head over to the forum and look for questions unless you have anything

1463
01:24:02,140 --> 01:24:02,640
else to add.

1464
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:04,260
No, yeah, definitely.

1465
01:24:04,740 --> 01:24:05,540
That's everything there.

1466
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:08,080
Let's move on over to the forum here.

1467
01:24:08,410 --> 01:24:11,180
Was there any updates that you thought were very important to mention this week?

1468
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:14,260
Oh, yes.

1469
01:24:15,100 --> 01:24:21,420
So we do have some bad news that we're going to cover real quick that has been getting

1470
01:24:21,420 --> 01:24:26,620
a lot of discussion, which is that Techlor has shut down their forums, actually.

1471
01:24:27,510 --> 01:24:34,480
So let me, we have a discussion going on about that in our forums that has been very active.

1472
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:40,700
But I real quick, I do want to read Techlor's own statement about it over on his site.

1473
01:24:42,780 --> 01:24:46,240
Basically he says, "Oop, there's a pop-up."

1474
01:24:46,660 --> 01:24:48,060
Basically says, "TechLore has a new home.

1475
01:24:48,220 --> 01:24:52,160
Everything is now consolidated at TechLore.Tech and powered by Ghost, but there's difficult

1476
01:24:52,220 --> 01:24:52,600
news too.

1477
01:24:52,630 --> 01:24:54,220
We're closing our public forum."

1478
01:24:54,220 --> 01:24:58,560
So as of today, which is a couple days ago, the forum is read only.

1479
01:24:59,290 --> 01:25:03,720
It will remain accessible until June 1st of 2026 so you can export your data and reference

1480
01:25:03,820 --> 01:25:04,360
valuable threads.

1481
01:25:04,610 --> 01:25:07,100
After that, all user data will be automatically deleted.

1482
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,780
Users can still DM each other to exchange contact information if they wish.

1483
01:25:11,780 --> 01:25:12,960
He says this was a difficult decision.

1484
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:14,380
We went back and forth on for months.

1485
01:25:14,450 --> 01:25:16,080
The forum has been a space where many of you connected

1486
01:25:16,090 --> 01:25:16,780
and shared knowledge.

1487
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:20,500
Losing that hurts, not just for the community, but for us too.

1488
01:25:20,660 --> 01:25:23,060
He says, but the reality is we were a two-person team.

1489
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:25,740
We haven't been able to give the forum the attention it deserves.

1490
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:29,720
And forums require sustained focus, energy, and care.

1491
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:32,760
And that's energy we want to direct at our core mission.

1492
01:25:34,440 --> 01:25:35,160
So yeah.

1493
01:25:35,230 --> 01:25:40,139
And then he goes on to talk about moving into focus

1494
01:25:40,140 --> 01:25:41,980
on their other content.

1495
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:45,540
So yeah, thanks to the privacy dad

1496
01:25:45,690 --> 01:25:47,700
who went ahead and shared this on our forums

1497
01:25:47,700 --> 01:25:49,900
'cause that's definitely where I first heard about this.

1498
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:53,180
And then thanks also to JG who went ahead

1499
01:25:53,180 --> 01:25:56,500
and posted the actual link to Techlor's statement.

1500
01:25:56,820 --> 01:26:03,500
So yeah, it's been a very polarizing thing

1501
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:06,200
among our own community.

1502
01:26:08,180 --> 01:26:10,240
You know, I think nobody's really happy about it

1503
01:26:10,300 --> 01:26:11,400
from what I've seen for sure.

1504
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:15,600
And it's very unfortunate, but it's,

1505
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:18,360
yeah, I don't know.

1506
01:26:18,420 --> 01:26:21,680
I think, I guess the reason it's been especially unfortunate

1507
01:26:21,790 --> 01:26:23,780
is a lot of people, I don't know,

1508
01:26:24,540 --> 01:26:26,320
there's a, how do I want to word this?

1509
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:32,340
I've seen a lot of people really like the idea of diversity

1510
01:26:32,660 --> 01:26:34,940
and just having more options in general,

1511
01:26:35,160 --> 01:26:37,540
which is something I'm a big believer in too.

1512
01:26:37,900 --> 01:26:41,540
And so I think that's a major reason

1513
01:26:41,570 --> 01:26:44,080
that everybody's been really kind of bummed about this.

1514
01:26:45,860 --> 01:26:47,320
But I don't know, it's a,

1515
01:26:48,850 --> 01:26:51,440
and I know it's, I don't know,

1516
01:26:51,500 --> 01:26:53,400
I don't have a lot of thoughts other than what Henry said.

1517
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:55,720
You know, it's two people over there at TechLore right now

1518
01:26:55,840 --> 01:26:58,320
and that's, forums require a lot of work.

1519
01:26:58,440 --> 01:26:59,680
You know, we're really fortunate to have

1520
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:03,240
a really good team here of volunteer moderators

1521
01:27:03,420 --> 01:27:05,139
that help keep an eye on things

1522
01:27:05,140 --> 01:27:08,240
and our forums are super, super active.

1523
01:27:08,480 --> 01:27:10,340
I know it's not easy to keep up with a forum

1524
01:27:10,350 --> 01:27:11,540
or any kind of community really.

1525
01:27:12,720 --> 01:27:14,580
So that's a lot for two people to manage.

1526
01:27:16,180 --> 01:27:17,480
Did you have any thoughts on this story,

1527
01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:19,600
on this development, Jordan?

1528
01:27:20,740 --> 01:27:23,320
- No, it's just an unfortunate outcome,

1529
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:25,100
but yeah, I think it's,

1530
01:27:25,440 --> 01:27:27,440
there was definitely some interesting information there.

1531
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:30,580
I would definitely look at exporting your account's data.

1532
01:27:30,940 --> 01:27:32,420
That's a thing you can do in discourse.

1533
01:27:33,980 --> 01:27:38,660
And I think, yeah, it's interesting to see that they're taking a direction towards more

1534
01:27:41,260 --> 01:27:43,840
digital rights activism, which is really exciting.

1535
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:46,020
So I think I'm excited to see where that leads.

1536
01:27:46,900 --> 01:27:50,140
But I think that the forum will be sorely missed.

1537
01:27:50,860 --> 01:27:54,720
I definitely was a fan of that forum and I was pretty active over there.

1538
01:27:55,360 --> 01:28:01,060
So it is unfortunate it's going away, but as you can say, all things come to an end eventually.

1539
01:28:01,060 --> 01:28:06,700
So that's unfortunate, but yeah, definitely looking, definitely very excited to see what

1540
01:28:06,980 --> 01:28:09,160
future stuff their team is working on.

1541
01:28:11,940 --> 01:28:12,420
Agreed.

1542
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:13,320
Yeah.

1543
01:28:14,860 --> 01:28:19,340
Yeah, Jonah says over here in the chat, end of an era, we really need more places to constructively

1544
01:28:19,420 --> 01:28:23,240
discuss privacy advice, but we're coming at things stronger than ever at PrivacyGuide,

1545
01:28:23,260 --> 01:28:24,840
so hopefully we can pick up some slack.

1546
01:28:25,060 --> 01:28:29,660
So yeah, I mean, of course, if you were a TechLore forum user, we would love to have

1547
01:28:29,660 --> 01:28:35,680
you over at the privacy guides forum. We now have the, what did I talk about at the top?

1548
01:28:35,820 --> 01:28:40,900
The experience level tags. So, you know, if you feel like you're still pretty new to this

1549
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:46,820
stuff, you can go ahead and tag yourself with a beginner tag if you want to. And yeah, you're

1550
01:28:46,860 --> 01:28:51,960
definitely welcome here. And I don't know. Yeah, there's, you know, they're talking about

1551
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:56,420
some other stuff too, because again, it's the diversity that people really appreciated.

1552
01:28:56,620 --> 01:28:58,280
So people are talking about different Lemmy communities.

1553
01:28:58,620 --> 01:29:01,100
And it's a good discussion to check out

1554
01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:02,600
and see what else is out there.

1555
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:04,540
People mentioned a few specific project forums,

1556
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:06,380
but those are like, you know, Graphene Cubes.

1557
01:29:06,420 --> 01:29:08,720
Those are dedicated to those projects specifically

1558
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:10,680
and not always privacy in general.

1559
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:15,000
So yeah, but I'm with you.

1560
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:17,880
I'm excited to see what TechLore

1561
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:18,880
is gonna be putting out in the future.

1562
01:29:19,060 --> 01:29:20,600
They've been putting out some really good videos lately.

1563
01:29:21,020 --> 01:29:23,400
So wishing them the best on that for sure.

1564
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:25,720
- Yeah, some really good stuff,

1565
01:29:26,220 --> 01:29:30,800
especially on the, I saw the video about the digital omnibus and I thought that was great.

1566
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:34,400
So it's really good stuff to see coming out.

1567
01:29:34,460 --> 01:29:38,640
And yeah, we're definitely also working on some activism stuff here as well,

1568
01:29:39,440 --> 01:29:40,940
which I think will be really exciting.

1569
01:29:41,500 --> 01:29:46,380
But it's, it's definitely, definitely a change.

1570
01:29:46,780 --> 01:29:47,520
I'll definitely miss it.

1571
01:29:47,600 --> 01:29:50,820
But yeah, all the best to them in the future endeavors.

1572
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:53,240
Yeah.

1573
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:55,260
I'm catching up on old content.

1574
01:29:55,380 --> 01:29:57,540
He's got a lot of interviews with people

1575
01:29:57,620 --> 01:29:58,480
that have been really interesting.

1576
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:01,960
All right.

1577
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:05,020
I think that'll bring us into the questions.

1578
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:08,800
So we're going to start by taking questions from our forum,

1579
01:30:09,440 --> 01:30:10,720
specifically from our paying members.

1580
01:30:11,420 --> 01:30:12,940
And if you want to become a member,

1581
01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:14,580
you can go to privacyguides.org,

1582
01:30:14,780 --> 01:30:17,000
click the little red heart icon in the top right corner

1583
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:19,980
of the page, and you will be presented with options there.

1584
01:30:20,420 --> 01:30:22,100
And then once we have checked the forum,

1585
01:30:22,280 --> 01:30:24,460
we will go ahead and bounce over to the live chat,

1586
01:30:24,580 --> 01:30:26,260
where I know we have been getting some questions.

1587
01:30:27,360 --> 01:30:29,600
So thank you guys who have been active.

1588
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:33,320
I actually, it doesn't look like there have been

1589
01:30:33,380 --> 01:30:34,700
a whole lot of questions this week,

1590
01:30:34,780 --> 01:30:37,840
but there have been a few posts I wanted to mention.

1591
01:30:38,020 --> 01:30:40,320
One of them was, JG said it would be really cool

1592
01:30:40,480 --> 01:30:43,700
if privacy guides talking about the highlight story

1593
01:30:43,740 --> 01:30:45,380
this week about the man who got arrested in Atlanta.

1594
01:30:45,580 --> 01:30:46,940
He said it'd be really cool if we could get in touch

1595
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:51,960
with EFF to answer questions as far as legal stuff and issues.

1596
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:54,260
So it wasn't EFF per se,

1597
01:30:54,460 --> 01:30:57,700
but I did reach out to a lawyer and I hope that was helpful.

1598
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:00,560
You said, this would help us better understand how to

1599
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:02,860
and how not to enter the country if you're an activist.

1600
01:31:03,500 --> 01:31:05,960
So yeah, I know we didn't answer that specifically,

1601
01:31:06,140 --> 01:31:07,460
but I did talk about how there's,

1602
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:11,340
it's really a lot of gray area when it comes to cell phones,

1603
01:31:11,500 --> 01:31:12,720
searches at the border right now

1604
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:16,220
and definitely need to just err on the side of caution,

1605
01:31:16,620 --> 01:31:16,940
I think.

1606
01:31:18,140 --> 01:31:22,140
And then JG also asked if Jordan could weigh in

1607
01:31:22,140 --> 01:31:23,800
about the social media ban, which you did.

1608
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:29,620
So, trying to see what other questions here.

1609
01:31:29,700 --> 01:31:31,980
Feel free to chime in if I missed one, Jordan.

1610
01:31:33,980 --> 01:31:36,540
- Yeah, just seeing a couple of speculations here about,

1611
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:39,020
you know, was the activist that was arrested,

1612
01:31:39,180 --> 01:31:40,220
were they using Graphene OS?

1613
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:41,280
We don't know.

1614
01:31:41,660 --> 01:31:45,480
So, I mean, I hope they were, you know,

1615
01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:47,520
but yeah, I don't, we don't know,

1616
01:31:48,260 --> 01:31:50,240
but it would be interesting to hear.

1617
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:53,160
More details about this.

1618
01:31:53,560 --> 01:32:00,820
We're kind of waiting on the media to pick it up or like for more information to get released basically at this point.

1619
01:32:03,110 --> 01:32:09,460
I wouldn't be surprised on that note if 404 does release because I think that's where we originally picked up the story.

1620
01:32:09,900 --> 01:32:19,520
And 404 in my opinion does a really good job of keeping up with stories because one of the drawbacks of the news cycle is a lot of the time once something falls out, people just move on.

1621
01:32:20,660 --> 01:32:26,660
So I really appreciate organizations of any kind that do kind of like stick to a story and update whenever there are updates.

1622
01:32:27,180 --> 01:32:29,240
So hopefully they will.

1623
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:38,020
But somebody asked a few questions about how the forum works specifically, which it looks like Jonah went in and answered those.

1624
01:32:39,860 --> 01:32:43,440
Yeah, so not a lot of questions from the forum specifically this week.

1625
01:32:45,740 --> 01:32:49,020
But, and Jonah just gifted a whole new round of memberships.

1626
01:32:50,060 --> 01:32:51,620
Oh, no, no, no, that was solid this all.

1627
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:53,980
Sent five privacy guides, gift memberships.

1628
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:56,300
Hey, thank you for doing that.

1629
01:32:56,480 --> 01:32:57,180
How nice of you.

1630
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:02,380
Man, this is like Oprah, you get a membership,

1631
01:33:02,580 --> 01:33:04,180
you get a membership, you get a membership.

1632
01:33:04,910 --> 01:33:05,340
I love it.

1633
01:33:06,180 --> 01:33:07,520
Thank you to all the members, the new members.

1634
01:33:09,260 --> 01:33:13,420
Okay, so scrolling back up to the top here,

1635
01:33:16,140 --> 01:33:17,100
this is kind of a difficult thing.

1636
01:33:17,780 --> 01:33:19,040
Can a bidder, you said,

1637
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:21,240
shouldn't the Supreme Court's job be to interpret the law

1638
01:33:21,420 --> 01:33:22,580
and not the public opinion?

1639
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:26,080
That would be nice, but according to my lawyer friend,

1640
01:33:26,240 --> 01:33:27,840
there is unfortunately politics

1641
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:29,540
that goes into this stuff sometimes.

1642
01:33:29,940 --> 01:33:33,480
So I hate to say that,

1643
01:33:33,560 --> 01:33:37,200
and that's not me trying to cast any kind of aspersions

1644
01:33:37,380 --> 01:33:37,880
one way or the other.

1645
01:33:38,220 --> 01:33:42,540
That's always just unfortunately been part of the system here in the US.

1646
01:33:42,630 --> 01:33:44,800
And I don't like it, but yeah.

1647
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:53,000
That's also why a lot of the time you will see a case that will go like, it'll work its

1648
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:53,940
way up through the courts.

1649
01:33:54,620 --> 01:34:01,380
And then right when it gets to the Supreme Court, the, the, um, somebody involved in

1650
01:34:01,380 --> 01:34:04,180
the case, usually the person pushing the case, the, what do they call that, the plaintiff,

1651
01:34:04,260 --> 01:34:09,260
I think they'll drop the case because their fear is that if they take it up to the Supreme

1652
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:14,620
Court, the Supreme Court will rule in a way against them and then it will become legal

1653
01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:16,000
precedent across the US.

1654
01:34:17,220 --> 01:34:20,940
That's not exactly a one-to-one of what you're saying, but the point is it's a lot of the

1655
01:34:20,980 --> 01:34:26,340
time there is a little bit of political game theory that goes into our political system.

1656
01:34:27,820 --> 01:34:28,700
It's unfortunate.

1657
01:34:33,100 --> 01:34:34,660
So Saad, this all says love the guitars in the background.

1658
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:35,240
Thank you.

1659
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:36,720
I appreciate it.

1660
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:39,080
There's a few I'm proud of.

1661
01:34:41,060 --> 01:34:41,740
Let's see.

1662
01:34:42,740 --> 01:34:44,660
You said you're not sure about disappearing messages

1663
01:34:44,900 --> 01:34:45,480
for most people.

1664
01:34:45,660 --> 01:34:51,780
As a recommendation, I'm not super sentimental about old messages,

1665
01:34:51,900 --> 01:34:52,260
to be honest.

1666
01:34:52,500 --> 01:34:55,580
But I recognize that not everyone shares that opinion.

1667
01:34:57,100 --> 01:34:57,540
So--

1668
01:34:58,340 --> 01:35:00,340
Especially because it's so easy at this point.

1669
01:35:00,500 --> 01:35:04,120
Like, you know, signal, you can just swap a setting in the settings and then every single

1670
01:35:04,220 --> 01:35:06,580
message you send in the future is going to expire.

1671
01:35:07,890 --> 01:35:09,540
I know I just put it on four weeks.

1672
01:35:10,260 --> 01:35:16,520
I'm not too sentimental about things, but I think it's an easy change to make and you

1673
01:35:16,540 --> 01:35:20,960
never know what you've sent in the past that you might not want to be existing forever

1674
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:24,640
on someone else's device, which is what would happen if you didn't have it.

1675
01:35:24,860 --> 01:35:29,740
So definitely worth thinking about a bit more if you need that sort of protection, but I

1676
01:35:29,740 --> 01:35:34,180
I can completely understand if you are a little bit sentimental about your messages.

1677
01:35:41,420 --> 01:35:44,680
Somebody, Abdelhaq Kour, apologies if I pronounced that wrong.

1678
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:47,400
You said, why isn't Session Messenger on the PrivacyGuides website?

1679
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:50,480
I believe the biggest reason, and we actually talked about this the other week,

1680
01:35:50,600 --> 01:35:55,020
as I believe a headline story, is the lack of perfect forward secrecy,

1681
01:35:55,860 --> 01:36:00,780
which is basically, if you didn't know, it's when every so often the encryption

1682
01:36:00,900 --> 01:36:06,500
keys rotate. So that way if somehow, if the encryption were to be cracked by like

1683
01:36:06,580 --> 01:36:10,220
a government computer or something, they would only get access to a certain window

1684
01:36:10,270 --> 01:36:15,000
of messages instead of your entire message history. However, we did announce last week

1685
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:21,060
that coming in 2026 session will be adding PFS. So obviously I cannot say anything for

1686
01:36:21,100 --> 01:36:24,140
sure. We don't know the future. There may be other factors that I'm not aware of,

1687
01:36:24,420 --> 01:36:28,080
but I wouldn't be surprised if there is at very least a discussion revisiting session

1688
01:36:28,420 --> 01:36:33,280
and whether or not we should add it. So if you have opinions on that, definitely join the forum

1689
01:36:33,580 --> 01:36:43,400
and be part of that discussion when it comes up. So there's comments about doom scrolling.

1690
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:48,660
I will address this one actually. You also asked if you care about privacy, why is your face on

1691
01:36:48,660 --> 01:36:52,680
on YouTube, I chose to make that decision

1692
01:36:54,260 --> 01:36:55,500
just to help spread the message.

1693
01:36:55,500 --> 01:36:57,580
And obviously I could have gone like the route

1694
01:36:57,700 --> 01:36:58,980
like Jordan is using the,

1695
01:37:00,020 --> 01:37:02,440
I don't know what Apple calls those, the emoji thing.

1696
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:07,200
But Jordan is using that like the hated one, for example,

1697
01:37:07,380 --> 01:37:08,240
just does a voiceover.

1698
01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:09,800
I could have gone that route.

1699
01:37:09,860 --> 01:37:11,220
And honestly, if I were doing it today,

1700
01:37:11,400 --> 01:37:13,760
I maybe would consider doing like the VTuber thing

1701
01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:17,320
potentially, but at the time that I started doing

1702
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:21,120
YouTube videos, VTubers weren't really, at very least they weren't a super popular

1703
01:37:21,340 --> 01:37:22,220
thing like they are now.

1704
01:37:22,920 --> 01:37:25,060
And, um, I don't know.

1705
01:37:25,140 --> 01:37:29,540
I, I felt like for me, it was worth giving up a little bit of that privacy to

1706
01:37:29,580 --> 01:37:30,620
help spread that message.

1707
01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:33,780
And, um, I don't know.

1708
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,460
I, I, it doesn't really bother me so much anymore.

1709
01:37:36,580 --> 01:37:38,980
There's other steps that I take to try and protect my privacy.

1710
01:37:39,380 --> 01:37:42,580
Like, um, you know, for, I'm actually pretty open about this.

1711
01:37:42,660 --> 01:37:43,660
Nate is not my real name.

1712
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:45,780
It's, it's a stage name, if you will.

1713
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:53,940
And, you know, I take a lot of steps to compartmentalize my life and remove data broker data and stuff like that.

1714
01:37:54,060 --> 01:37:55,900
So, you know, privacy is a sliding scale.

1715
01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:57,080
It's not like an all or nothing.

1716
01:37:57,200 --> 01:37:59,880
Like, could I have better privacy by not showing my face?

1717
01:37:59,980 --> 01:38:00,320
Absolutely.

1718
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:03,820
I could also have better privacy by just not having a YouTube account in general.

1719
01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:08,740
So, it's kind of up to everybody to judge their own threat model and what's important to them.

1720
01:38:09,260 --> 01:38:15,940
And I was willing to not to like try to make myself sound grand or anything, but I was willing to make that

1721
01:38:15,940 --> 01:38:17,520
personally to help spread that message.

1722
01:38:17,900 --> 01:38:23,440
So, and then I think this is when they started handing out

1723
01:38:24,820 --> 01:38:25,240
memberships.

1724
01:38:26,040 --> 01:38:26,540
[laughter]

1725
01:38:28,780 --> 01:38:34,880
Yeah, I definitely think there's risks with showing your face.

1726
01:38:34,980 --> 01:38:41,100
And I think especially for people that are of a certain group of people,

1727
01:38:41,220 --> 01:38:42,600
it can be kind of problematic.

1728
01:38:42,940 --> 01:38:49,020
So yeah, I personally prefer not to because yeah, just not something I really want to

1729
01:38:49,020 --> 01:38:54,740
deal with, but I think it's good to also make that sacrifice as well.

1730
01:38:55,420 --> 01:39:00,140
But I think it's certainly up to the individual, you know, like whatever you're comfortable

1731
01:39:00,300 --> 01:39:08,960
with I think is important to think about and choose what's the best option for you.

1732
01:39:13,040 --> 01:39:14,840
Nate looks like Harry to me.

1733
01:39:17,240 --> 01:39:18,060
What I miss?

1734
01:39:18,740 --> 01:39:20,420
Oh, Harry who?

1735
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:24,860
Just because you said your name wasn't actually named but yeah.

1736
01:39:25,300 --> 01:39:27,460
Oh, like Harry.

1737
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:27,900
Okay.

1738
01:39:29,400 --> 01:39:30,940
I don't know if I have an opinion on that.

1739
01:39:31,280 --> 01:39:41,000
Actually, I will say when I was younger, like middle school younger, I got, this is going to be a hard thing for younger people to think about.

1740
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:42,740
to wrap their heads around, but once upon a time,

1741
01:39:42,840 --> 01:39:44,060
Harry Potter was not cool.

1742
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:50,120
And I got bullied, picked on a lot for looking like Harry

1743
01:39:50,160 --> 01:39:50,380
Potter.

1744
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:52,440
So yeah.

1745
01:39:53,720 --> 01:39:53,980
Interesting.

1746
01:39:55,700 --> 01:39:57,860
Yeah, I know nowadays that would get you cool points.

1747
01:39:57,900 --> 01:39:59,880
But back then it was an insult.

1748
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:04,280
Somebody asked if we mentioned Noster.

1749
01:40:04,480 --> 01:40:05,440
We didn't bring up Noster.

1750
01:40:06,220 --> 01:40:08,220
I don't believe we recommended on privacy guides either.

1751
01:40:08,480 --> 01:40:10,380
If you think we should, again, head over to the forum,

1752
01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:17,380
started discussion. Do we still allow discussions on GitHub? I know that used to be a thing.

1753
01:40:19,180 --> 01:40:27,200
No. Well, I mean, unless it's an issue, but there's no GitHub discussion. Gotcha. Gotcha.

1754
01:40:27,580 --> 01:40:32,720
Okay. Then yeah, if you think we should head over there. And then yeah, somebody else asked,

1755
01:40:33,030 --> 01:40:37,600
what are the benefits of being a member of PrivacyGuides? For now, I think the biggest thing is

1756
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:42,880
probably the early access to videos by, I think it's like, man, how long was the,

1757
01:40:45,240 --> 01:40:49,100
oh no, it's still member only the threat modeling video is still member only.

1758
01:40:50,180 --> 01:40:57,600
But yeah, now we've got the smartphone course as well. And yeah, so early access to videos,

1759
01:40:57,620 --> 01:41:01,300
but I do know we're always having discussions and taking suggestions on

1760
01:41:02,580 --> 01:41:06,420
additional perks that we can offer to members. So yeah.

1761
01:41:07,400 --> 01:41:12,280
Definitely worth checking out the videos that are like sitting there because they're not quite done yet.

1762
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:16,220
Like we want to release the entire course to the public in one go.

1763
01:41:16,220 --> 01:41:18,940
We don't want to just like have it sitting there and not be complete.

1764
01:41:20,220 --> 01:41:24,120
So that is why it's sitting as members only for the foreseeable future.

1765
01:41:25,380 --> 01:41:28,800
We're hoping to have the stuff published by the end of the year.

1766
01:41:29,140 --> 01:41:30,380
So that'll be public then.

1767
01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:34,140
But it is kind of important to make sure we get all of the course done.

1768
01:41:34,480 --> 01:41:37,660
is kind of a lot of work to get that all completed,

1769
01:41:38,440 --> 01:41:42,820
especially because there's a lot of information in the course.

1770
01:41:44,140 --> 01:41:46,360
But yeah, it's looking pretty good so far,

1771
01:41:46,540 --> 01:41:49,880
but there should be a regular upload soon.

1772
01:41:50,200 --> 01:41:52,240
We're just been working a little bit more on the courses.

1773
01:41:52,520 --> 01:41:53,440
So yeah.

1774
01:41:55,840 --> 01:41:57,900
- Yeah, which again, I really wanna thank you for that

1775
01:41:57,910 --> 01:42:00,800
'cause I feel like in my personal opinion,

1776
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:03,040
as somebody who has edited all my own videos

1777
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:04,360
start to finish over at the new oil.

1778
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:12,160
Like I feel like the, the most involved part is the part that you're doing, like just a

1779
01:42:12,220 --> 01:42:13,220
quick peek behind the curtain.

1780
01:42:13,380 --> 01:42:17,920
What's been happening so far with the videos I'm on is I film them, I do the initial rough

1781
01:42:18,040 --> 01:42:21,960
cut just to kind of cut out all the dead space and the mistakes and, and then I send it over

1782
01:42:22,020 --> 01:42:26,260
to Jordan and Jordan does all the color correction and adds all the really cool animations and

1783
01:42:26,280 --> 01:42:29,940
graphics and stuff that I could never figure out how to do in a million years.

1784
01:42:30,120 --> 01:42:32,580
And so I feel like Jordan's doing the majority of the work by far.

1785
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:35,280
And I really, I think they're crushing it too.

1786
01:42:35,500 --> 01:42:37,120
And I really appreciate all the hard work they do.

1787
01:42:37,660 --> 01:42:37,860
So.

1788
01:42:38,520 --> 01:42:41,740
Yeah, no, I think it's definitely, uh, it's going to be really great once people

1789
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:44,240
get to see, because I feel like nothing's public yet.

1790
01:42:44,460 --> 01:42:50,600
But, um, I think once everyone gets to see, um, the smartphone security course,

1791
01:42:50,820 --> 01:42:53,260
I think they're going to be very impressed.

1792
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:57,760
Cause yeah, I do, I do think you did a great job with explaining stuff.

1793
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:01,840
And just to be clear, it was Nate who wrote that.

1794
01:43:02,020 --> 01:43:05,540
So yeah, that's going to be coming soon.

1795
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:06,700
Definitely look out for it.

1796
01:43:07,420 --> 01:43:14,460
But just one small thing is YouTube members are different to our forum members.

1797
01:43:14,840 --> 01:43:18,320
You only get access to the early videos on YouTube, if you're a YouTube member.

1798
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:24,400
So it's kind of an unfortunate thing, but just another thing to cover here.

1799
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:31,660
And also, Nate, can you either neither confirm nor deny the Harry allegations?

1800
01:43:34,140 --> 01:43:36,940
You know, I think my thing lately is I'm just going to deny everything.

1801
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:39,560
And yeah.

1802
01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:47,000
Yeah, I was in an online chat room one time a few a while back where somebody was like,

1803
01:43:47,460 --> 01:43:48,140
hey, aren't you, Nate?

1804
01:43:48,190 --> 01:43:49,600
And I was like, I don't know who you're talking about.

1805
01:43:49,820 --> 01:43:51,860
So I think that's just going to be my thing now.

1806
01:43:53,680 --> 01:43:56,140
Oh yeah, I guess people could recognize you I suppose.

1807
01:43:56,500 --> 01:43:59,520
Um, that is, that is something to think about.

1808
01:43:59,660 --> 01:44:02,340
Um, hello there, Dev, Dev Josh.

1809
01:44:02,660 --> 01:44:02,900
Hello.

1810
01:44:04,200 --> 01:44:04,640
Welcome.

1811
01:44:05,380 --> 01:44:05,560
Yeah.

1812
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:08,560
All right.

1813
01:44:08,760 --> 01:44:11,560
Well, that is all the updates from this week in privacy.

1814
01:44:11,780 --> 01:44:14,880
They will be shared here on the blog every single week.

1815
01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:18,660
Um, so stay subscribed with your favorite RSS reader.

1816
01:44:18,820 --> 01:44:23,660
If you want to stay tuned, um, there are, I believe I'm

1817
01:44:23,660 --> 01:44:25,360
missing some parts to this sign off.

1818
01:44:26,060 --> 01:44:26,380
Oh no.

1819
01:44:28,620 --> 01:44:30,380
Well, I know I do wanna remind you guys that,

1820
01:44:30,620 --> 01:44:32,840
like I said at the top, Privacy Guides is a nonprofit

1821
01:44:33,140 --> 01:44:36,020
which researches and shares privacy related information.

1822
01:44:36,680 --> 01:44:38,760
And my cat is making a last minute cameo yet again.

1823
01:44:39,540 --> 01:44:42,840
And we facilitate a community on our forum and on matrix

1824
01:44:43,040 --> 01:44:44,600
where people can ask questions and get advice

1825
01:44:44,700 --> 01:44:46,700
about staying private online and preserving

1826
01:44:46,820 --> 01:44:47,560
their digital rights.

1827
01:44:48,220 --> 01:44:50,320
If you would like to support our mission,

1828
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:52,900
you can go to privacyguides.org

1829
01:44:52,900 --> 01:44:56,380
And there is a little heart in the corner, the top right of the website.

1830
01:44:56,440 --> 01:45:00,200
You can click on that and you could become a member or you can make a one time donation.

1831
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:03,880
And all that information is available there.

1832
01:45:04,100 --> 01:45:05,180
So thank you guys for watching.

1833
01:45:05,820 --> 01:45:07,160
Again, updates will be in the blog.

1834
01:45:07,280 --> 01:45:08,760
So subscribe with your RSS reader.

1835
01:45:09,260 --> 01:45:15,220
If you prefer audio, we do have a podcast style recording of updates, um, which you

1836
01:45:15,300 --> 01:45:19,300
can go find on our website as well, or I believe we'll also be in the description here.

1837
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:26,100
There's a newsletter that contains a summary of all these stories if you want access to that as well.

1838
01:45:26,880 --> 01:45:29,660
So thank you guys for watching. Jordan, did I miss anything?

1839
01:45:30,740 --> 01:45:36,220
No, I'm not sure why that changes in the document, but yes, we will be good next week. Don't worry.

1840
01:45:36,900 --> 01:45:38,620
But yeah, thanks so much for watching.

1841
01:45:38,930 --> 01:45:40,420
Just making sure I covered it all.

1842
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:40,940
Yeah.

1843
01:45:41,400 --> 01:45:48,300
Okay. All right. Thank you guys so much for watching and we will see you same time next week with the latest news from next week.

1844
01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:49,400
Bye-bye.

1845
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:20,340
[MUSIC]