Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
My name is Alyssa.
And my name's Bri.
We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
word.
And apparently that's controversial.
It's a bit comfy.
Hello and welcome to episode four of We Are More.
It's episode four already.
How did we get here?
Through episodes one through three.
Oh, thank you.
That was helpful.
There we go.
Energy.
So today we're going to be talking about modesty.
And we're pretty excited to hit this one because this is deeply ingrained in both of our histories.
I know.
And like you said the other day, we're going to hit some of the major topics within the
first couple episodes.
But don't you be afraid.
We're going to roll back around to dig even deeper into each topic.
We just kind of wanted to give the basics for anybody who's, whether you're starting
out on this path or wondering why we believe what we believe, just to kind of give all
of it at once and then like Free said, come back and dig a little deeper.
Listen to the first four episodes and then if you hate us, leave.
Good.
That's a great message.
If you like us, stick around for more.
We are fun.
We're more fun with wine.
We don't have that tonight.
So it is what it is.
We were first going to kind of go into a little bit of what we were taught growing up in conservative
evangelical churches, whether that came from like our parents, our family, our church,
our society.
And because I think if you didn't grow up in the world that we grew up in, this was
not normal.
So Bri, what were some things that were normal in your world?
Like you cannot wear this.
When we were younger, it was like two piece bathing suits.
And then we graduated to like tankinis and that was like, woo wee.
Like major.
No short shorts.
Short shorts.
Short skirts, like mini skirts were very in style for a while and that was not a thing
for us.
Now, to be fair, some of it is just like safety purposes as a kid.
And I totally get that.
But this was more like Christianity based rules, I would say.
Well it all comes back to modesty.
Like it wasn't, now I can't say what, like what our parents reasoning was behind it,
but what the reasoning, like the reasoning that we were given, the message behind why
we had all these rules was because that's what God wants of you for a lot of reasons
and we'll go into those as we record.
But I think one of the big results of all of that for me, and I think that this is for
both of us really, was kind of learning to be ashamed of our bodies.
Yeah, and I feel like that is a huge topic that we're gonna dig even deeper into.
But yeah, even if you're the skinniest person in the world, even if you're the thinnest
person and you have the best shape and you should have all the confidence in the world,
if you grow up being told you can't show that, you can't do this, you're gonna make someone
else stumble, you're gonna feel ashamed of your body.
Your body that God created that you have no control over is gonna make someone else sin.
And so that makes you ashamed of yourself and your existence, honestly.
Well and like for me, based on my body type, clothes were not made to fit someone with
my body type.
The junior section at Kohl's did not have stuff built to fit me.
And so I was stuck either wearing clothes for women much older than myself, or wearing
clothes that I was told were inappropriate.
Everything had to have a tank top.
Now I know that that was like early 2000s fashion was all about the layering.
But my gosh, the layering.
Like you can wear a sundress, but you also want to wear jeans underneath.
One of the things that like really sticks out to me from my childhood was my... and
okay love my parents.
Don't get me wrong here.
Hi mom, hi dad.
Hi mom and dad.
But they would always tell me to pull my shirt up higher because you know, you can't get
it quite high enough.
And so they would do... and I can't show you guys because...
It's a podcast.
But they would like mimic like pulling your shirt up, like pinching your shirt and pulling
it up.
And people caught on to this.
Like other family members and friends would catch on to the fact that they were doing
that.
And so they would do it to me too.
And again, I love all these people.
You're not the only one.
I got that too.
Yeah.
And it's just like it immediately makes you feel very conscious of your body in a very
negative way.
And they're looking at you there.
I think that's a huge thing.
Like, hey, if it bothers you, don't look.
Well also we were teenagers.
Nobody should have been looking.
Now not just in the Christian circles, just like as women in general, I remember to like
shout out to all the band camp kids.
One of the rules at band camp was you weren't allowed to show your bra straps.
Oh, they got so mad.
They were so mad.
And it's like as high school girls, it's hot.
You're marching outside all day.
Like you don't want to wear a t-shirt.
You want to wear something that has less clothing, less material on it because you're burning
hot.
And the counselors would go around and there was one lady that would duct tape your bra
straps together.
So they were out of sight.
And I'm like, are you kidding me?
Is it that like, am I going to make the high school boys freak out that much?
Because you can say a piece of sweaty fabric that holds up my boobs.
Well, but think about how like that verges on assaults to, cause she would just come
up behind you with tape.
Like it wasn't like, let me pull you aside nicely and have a conversation.
She would violently come up to you with tape and strap you down.
Good luck getting that off too.
And how embarrassing for a teenage girl.
It draws way more attention than just a bra strap slipping.
And thinking back on that is horrific to me.
Horrifying.
Like why are we doing this to girls?
Horrifying.
And, and like Bri said, that was not in the Christian circles even.
So this is not a, this is not a Christian specific issue.
Even though it does, it does lend itself to the Christian sphere in a lot of ways.
Different denominations, different segments of Christianity believe different things about
modesty.
So you'll see the more extreme people like you think the Duggars, where like heaven forbid
you show an ankle.
All women should wear skirts and dresses at all times.
Your hair is your pride and joy.
So don't cut that like Samson.
But then there's much more relaxed, like non-denominational views.
So you kind of in Christianity get several different beliefs on modesty.
But I think what we should dive into today is like, where does it all stem from?
What does the Bible specifically say about modesty?
Right.
Well, and it, I think it extends to a lot of places.
So we're, we're looking at some notes here too.
Oh, I'm illiterate.
I can't read.
Oh, poor Bri.
Oh, it's really hard for me.
So hard.
I mean, it is nine o'clock.
I'm reading the notes.
Denim jackets and maxi skirts.
Yes!
Not that I don't like those things.
Bri likes to look like a youth pastor.
I do.
I think part of what we wanted to talk about too, and this might just need to be moved
to a different area.
But it all comes in on modesty because it's not just the clothes that you wear.
It's tattoos, it's piercings, it's makeup, it's all of the things that are put on women.
And with women, especially when it comes to all of these things, there's such a fine line
we have to walk.
Don't be tempting to men, but also don't be ugly.
Yeah, I would say, oh my gosh, yes, because don't be too tempting, but also put on your
makeup.
Right.
And don't wear those clothes, but also don't look like a bum.
Don't be frumpy.
Yeah.
Come to church in your best.
Yes.
Ugh!
We'll get there.
We'll get there!
And it's like, Brie and I are very into our makeup.
We've always been, we watch the YouTube videos, you know, we buy the faint stuff, whatever.
And that looks down upon, has been looked down upon in our circles because we put on
too much eyeliner, there's too much contouring going on, for whatever reason, you know.
If your nose looks too structured, ever for a bit.
Or like we would wear, I had gray lipstick and you had the green lipstick, right?
I did.
So that's too much.
You've gone too far with the makeup.
But if I walk into church with not an ounce of makeup on my face, I'm also going to get
crap.
Like you should look your absolute best walking into church.
God doesn't want to see that.
And I will probably say this 10 times in this podcast.
Everything that I can possibly do is going to impress the Creator.
The Creator of the heavens and the earth.
No amount of makeup that I put on my body or clothes is going to make him go, wow, she
looks great today.
I was like, oh, she really put in the effort.
But I mean, think about that.
Break that down.
Not just the God of the universe, but the God that made your face.
The God that made your body.
We think we're going to impress him with the right amount of highlighter and a turtleneck.
Like no, we're not going to do that.
What do they say about that aesthetic?
It's like the Christian girl autumn or something like that aesthetic.
Blue jean and turtlenecks.
So let's go into what biblical modesty actually means.
Because modesty is only mentioned a couple times in the scripture.
And it's not what we think of as modesty today.
It's very different.
So I got ragey one time talking about modesty with someone and I came home and researched
it and I wrote down an essay.
She sent me a picture at like midnight.
Because I'm just like we've talked about before, like the fire in our veins, like in that song,
it just it riles you up.
I think it's important to mention, like you said, I think last week, two weeks ago, last
last episode, the Bible was written for everyone, but not to everyone.
So whoever was writing these passages about modesty in the Bible, it wasn't specifically
to 2024, Elizabeth Breanna.
It was written to, you know, Mary Magdalene, I don't know, was written to the Israelites
back in right around Jesus's time.
So just like a quick Google search on like what verses bring up modesty, you'll pretty
quickly find First Timothy two, and then I chose like eight through 10.
And it says, in every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up
to God free from anger and controversy.
I want to pause on that one for a minute.
How often are we hearing about in church, free from anger and controversy men?
Because hello, father, full of rage.
How often are you lifting up your holy hands?
Sorry, dad, sorry dad.
Continuing on, verse nine, and I want women to be modest in their appearance.
They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the
way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
This is specifically like in church in worship.
Don't stand out.
Right.
Don't go crazy.
And then it goes on to say, for women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves
attractive by the good things they do.
So here we go.
Women can't wear their wedding ring.
So from that passage, I understood we shouldn't be ragey.
I shouldn't do my hair crazy in church and stop wearing your wedding rings and your Michael
course and your coach.
Well, that's really hurtful, Brianna, and I feel very attacked.
But it doesn't mention anything other than don't wear your hair crazy and don't wear
your most expensive items.
Which let's point out, that's exactly what we're doing at church.
Right.
That's what we've always been taught to do.
We're all about appearance at church, it seems like, at least in the churches that I've been
in.
But you're always about the outside and not necessarily what's inside.
Well, I mean, think about when we were kids, and again, part of this is just of the times,
but we had Sunday dresses.
You think of your Sunday best.
We had the fanciest dresses that we owned were to go to church in.
And the same thing nowadays, like it's a little bit different, obviously, because I'm not
wearing a dress to church, but it's unlikely that I'm going to show up to church in a hoodie
and whatever.
I mean, I do because I'm me.
But like most people are unlikely to do that.
We're walking into church wearing our best, wearing our Sunday best.
And that is exactly what Paul says not to do.
So then from there, I looked up what was traditional dress for people in Bible times to wear?
To church to wear at all.
And it says traditionally in Bible times, women would wear tunics, something called
palas, which is essentially a shawl and sandals.
I don't see anywhere in there that they're hitting up Victoria's Secret and picking up
a bra, first of all.
If I showed up to church without a bra, that would be scandalous.
People would have words.
People would lose an eye.
But really, you might be asked to leave.
Yeah.
I don't think Paul knew anything about maxi dresses and Birkenstocks.
I really don't.
But I mean, it's just if that's what modesty means in the Bible, if that's what Paul was
referencing, then we've added a whole lot to the Bible in what we say modesty is and
what we say Christian modesty is.
And I think that's the issue is we're putting so many words into God's mouth.
It just says appropriate clothing.
Well, who defines what's appropriate?
Well, obviously the male pastors that have been in charge forever.
How about it's up to your own discretion what you feel comfortable with and what you don't?
For some people, yeah, maybe you're, I don't like the dimples on my knees, so I don't want
to show them.
Fine.
But that doesn't mean biblically you can't show your knees.
You know, we're supposed to be led by the Holy Spirit, right?
When Jesus went back to heaven, he said, I'm leaving my spirit with you to guide you.
The Holy Spirit should be the one guiding everything that we do from what we wear to
the way we speak to the way that we interact.
All of these things should be guided by that.
And so if I believe that you have the Holy Spirit within you, then I have to trust that
you're following him in all of those things too.
And I shouldn't be able to tell you actually your cleavage is making me uncomfortable.
You're welcome.
And that'll be $10 for lookins.
But then you look up like, okay, where does the word modesty come from?
Do I looked up that?
So there's two different translations, I guess.
So modesty comes from the Latin modus, which literally translates to keeping due measure,
knowing the correct measure of yourself, of yourself, not of others.
But in Greek, the translation is from this word called Cosmios.
I'm very Greek.
Meaning good behavior, decent and orderly, inner self control.
Once again, self.
I can have self control completely nude.
I can also have self control covered head to toe, like self control.
Because it's about you, not about what the world is putting on you.
Right.
And something that we haven't quite gotten to yet is the reason that Christian women
are told to be modest is because you don't want to make your brothers in Christ stumble.
And for those of you who don't speak church speak, because that is like the churchiest
thing in the world.
So churchy.
People will say like, your brothers and sisters in Christ.
So that essentially just means other people who are following Jesus.
Other Christians.
And when they say you don't want, this is only used in the case of modesty too.
When they say that you don't want to cause someone else to stumble, essentially they're
saying that as a woman, it is your responsibility to make sure that men don't look at you sexually.
I mean, that really is what it boils down to.
Instead of saying from the beginning, when we birth our baby boys, we teach them, hey,
treat everyone with respect.
That other person's body does not belong to you.
How about that?
Yeah.
And have that expectation of your sons, of your husbands, of your male friends, of the
men in your church, whoever they are.
Expect that they're not going to be awful.
Right.
And like grownups, quite treating them like babies.
Well, and that's what we do in so many of these cases is we treat men like infants.
They have no control over themselves.
No self control.
And you just said modesty means inner self control.
So we should teach modesty to men too.
Right.
Because it's about you.
Don't make that woman uncomfortable and stare at her.
It's very simple.
We teach girls, women, men too, to be ashamed of the bodies that God gave them.
No matter what you look like.
I think Bre and I talked in the last episode about how difficult it is to find resources
for biblical feminism.
And let me tell you, it keeps getting harder.
It's impossible.
It's not because there are not good scholarly resources out there.
There absolutely are.
It's because the amount of trash on the internet is just like, it's overwhelming.
And you read these articles and they're not researched.
They're garbage.
They're poorly written.
But there's enough of them that they bog down the system.
So you can't get to the really good stuff.
So I found an article.
Here we go.
Trash talking articles again.
This is the second episode.
Do you want to say it's by Schmikeschmarrn?
Thank you.
On modesty.
And I kind of based a lot of my research on this particular article because it kind of
encompassed a lot of what was being said in all the articles.
They kind of all say the same things.
They all twist the same verses.
So I kind of based it off of that.
So one of the things, and this is written by a woman, because let me tell you, women
are perpetuating all of this as much as men are.
Maybe even more sometimes, which is so sad.
You know what, maybe they just, I need to give them a hug or something.
Yeah, I'm not a hugger, but I'll do it.
You don't even like to hug me.
No, I don't.
So one of the things that she said is that when we choose our clothes, and I'm going
to try and not exactly quote her because that feels insulting.
You know what?
You do you.
But she said when we choose our clothes each day, we have an opportunity for discipleship.
Who knew my closet had such power?
And she says that the question isn't necessarily how short or how low your clothing is, even
though you might have to answer those things along the way.
It's about identity.
It's about who you are.
My closet has so much power, Brianna.
It's so impressive.
It's very Narnia.
And so I, you know, my response to that was essentially that the issue isn't in what she's
saying.
It's about that she makes it biblical.
Right.
You know, if you want to dress with a higher cut top and longer shorts, do you?
Totally up to you.
Yeah, whatever your comfort level is, dress to your comfort level.
For whatever reason.
You don't have to have a reason.
No.
But when you start to make your opinions biblical, you start to assign God to your thoughts,
that's when it becomes a problem.
Just because you have decided that short shorts are not discipling the rest of the world does
not mean that the Bible also says that.
She at one point also says, what we wear tells a story about who we are.
It's very deep, very deep.
And I said, you know, but what, but what is that story?
And why is that story defined by what we wear?
The Bible doesn't ever say that.
I feel like the only story that would be said with me are like, did you decide to wear short
shorts today?
Your thighs chafed.
It's some shame on you.
My story would be, could you stop wearing athleisure for one day?
No.
Do you own real pants?
Why do you have 17 pairs of black leggings?
17?
My whole drawer is full of black leggings.
17 would be getting rid of most of them.
Back in the day, do you remember?
Leggings weren't pants.
Leggings were not pants.
That was a big thing back in like the mid 2000s.
But I think we can look at the Bible and really recognize that this is not true.
If we pull this statement apart, what we wear tells a story about who we are.
Okay.
So let's look into the Old Testament.
There is a point where in the Old Testament, the Israelites are told that they can't have
a bowl cut, which is like the goofiest thing in the world.
Sorry, every child from the 70s.
Right.
Like it's literally now, again, we're not supposed to follow the old law, but for them
at the time, it was biblical to not have a bowl cut.
It was also biblical not to have tattoos at that time under the old law.
I am not.
I've got tattoos guys.
Like I'm not.
I don't.
You're welcome, grandma.
That could be the title.
I think we've decided that's our tagline.
I think our tagline should be sorry, grandma.
And because to us, none of that makes any sense, right?
It's just why no bowl cuts?
Why no tattoos?
It doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.
Now the reasoning behind it when you dig into it is because those things were done to worship
other gods.
There were other cultures that part of how you knew that they were part of this religion
is that they had a bowl cut.
That is absolutely insane to me.
They had to do something easy.
I can tell that you're worshiping, I don't know, Zeus because you have a bowl cut.
They didn't have a lot of resources, okay?
And so that was kind of the definition of here's how your body should look.
There's not a lot of times in scripture where that happens, but this was one of those times
and it was very specifically due to the fact that this meant worshiping another god.
So okay, if at some point some religion says the way we define ourselves is because we
are wearing short shorts, then okay, maybe don't wear those short shorts.
But that's the only reason.
Not just because it's going to tempt someone else or because of whatever.
So one of the other things that she talks about is that when Adam and Eve realized that
they were naked when they sinned, you know, God made them clothes.
And she goes into this whole thing about how and God lovingly made these beautiful clothes
for them.
And I'd like to think that they were not at all like, you know, the caveman-esque type
clothes, that they were beautiful clothes and tailored wonderfully and blah blah blah.
She goes on and on, right?
What?
Like, where is this coming from?
Give me a verse.
I know.
Maybe that could be our tagline.
Give me a verse.
Give me a verse that says, God came down from the heavens with a brother sewing machine and
fashioned finest garments in all of Eden.
And I think that's crazy because like, from where we're standing on the Christian feminist
viewpoint, or just the general feminist viewpoint, we get crap all the time about putting words
in God's mouth, adding to the Bible, right?
Tell me that's not adding to the Bible.
And she uses that as a point to say, because God lovingly took the time to fashion their
clothes, that means he cares about their clothes and what they wear.
And therefore, we should care about the clothes and what we wear and we should hide our bodies.
We've gone on a journey.
Even though, remember, God made our bodies.
And he made our bodies naked.
Like I'm not saying go out and strip, but God made us as we are.
He made our bodies without clothes.
We are not born clothed.
So that needs to play a factor in how we treat our bodies.
Some of the verses that she goes into, one of them is 1 Corinthians 6, 19 through 20.
And this is from the NLT.
It says, Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who lives
in you and was given to you by God?
You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price.
So you must honor God with your body.
The Bible does give a lot of examples of, you know, you don't belong to yourself, essentially.
Like you were bought with a price, you belong to God, etc.
etc. we see this again and again.
However, in this case, this verse is being taken completely out of context.
And I want to point out that in most modesty discussions, verses are being taken out of
context.
Like you don't read the whole thing.
Literally just read the whole chapter for goodness sakes.
They're not that long.
So verse 18, the one right before this talks about running from sexual sin and immorality.
So the verse before it informs it, right?
It tells you what it's talking about.
So when it says your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who lives in you, you don't
belong to yourself, etc, etc.
It's not talking about your clothes.
Nope, it's talking about sexual immorality.
That is what it's talking about.
It's telling us what it's talking about.
And you don't just get to assign it meaning because you want to write a cutesy little
blog.
You're so violent.
That's not how it works.
It just frustrates me because because I have been told many times that I'm I'm making things
up when I say women have value in God's kingdom.
That when I say that women are not secondary to their husbands, or that women should preach
or any of these things, I get told, well, you're just cherry picking verses.
You're taking things out of context.
You're whatever.
But all of these people are taking things out of context.
And this is not the only example.
So then the next section that I wanted to talk about is in First Corinthians.
Now, again, there's a section in here that's kind of cherry picked.
And this is a this is a big section like this just doesn't have to do with modesty.
This is like one of those ones that like it encompasses a lot.
And I don't know that we necessarily have the time to go into all of it.
We in fact do feel free.
But we'll we'll kind of dive into it a little bit.
So this is First Corinthians 11.
And I'm going to start in verse 17.
Generally this is started verse 11.
But I think verse seven is where reading more of the Bible just never does never hurt.
It does never hurt.
So this whole passage is really interesting.
So just go with me as as we read it.
And this is NLT again.
It says a man should not wear anything on his head when worshiping for man is made in
God's image and reflects God's glory and women reflects man's glory.
For the first man did not come from woman, but the first woman came from man.
And man was not made for woman but woman was made for man.
For this reason, and because the angels are watching a woman should wear a covering on
her head to show she is under authority.
But I love it.
booty booty butt.
Among the Lord's people, women are not independent of men and men are not independent of women.
For although the first woman came from man, every other man was born from a woman and
everything comes from God.
Judge for yourselves, is it right for a woman to pray to God in public without covering
her head?
Isn't it obvious that it's disgraceful for a man to have long hair?
And isn't long hair a woman's pride and joy?
For it has been given to her as a covering.
But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other customs in
this and neither do God's other churches.
So that's a long section and there's so much to dig into there like this.
But it's so good.
It's so good.
I've I've really learned to love Paul over as we've been researching this and I gotta
tell you I did not like Paul prior to this.
I know.
Because Paul does say a lot about women.
But again, this is if you're reading it correctly, he's empowering women.
Exactly.
It's not what we've been told.
Setting Christianity apart from the rest of the world in that way.
So I think the first thing to dive into because this is the topic of this podcast is the modesty
aspect here.
So the author of the particular article that I was reading used this as an argument to
say that women should be different from men.
So essentially that the rules for women are different than the rules for men.
So we have to be modest.
But apparently men can men can do whatever they want.
So again, we're ignoring the context.
If we try and say that that means that women are different from men, that that's the purpose
of these verses that Paul is writing.
First of all, again, we're ignoring context because the verse before this talks about
how men and women are equal in God's kingdom.
Can I just hit that point a little harder?
You missed it.
I smacked a desk.
And beyond that, like what is the argument here?
Is it that like women need to be modest, but if a man wears a bikini, that's totally fine?
Like, are we okay with speedos?
Because I'm not.
I'm not.
I mean, but I guess do you do you but I'm just seeing one too many things.
I'm not gonna look.
A message for men.
I think it's just it's a silly argument.
Like it's a pointless argument to say that this set of verses, we're gonna boil it down,
make it so simplistic, that all it says is women's rules are different than men's rules
and women need to be modest and men can do whatever the crap they want.
He says we have no customs other than like men shouldn't have long hair but women should
because that's covering for them.
Okay, well what about alopecia?
What about like cancer when it takes your hair?
Should we be ashamed of that?
Should we cover that up?
No, we're not doing that.
Well, and he says, if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other
custom than this and neither do God's other churches.
So I think we have to recognize that some of what Paul is saying is very, very cultural.
He's not saying he specifically does not say and remember Paul chooses his words very carefully.
He specifically does not say and this is God's command and this is what God wants of you
and he does that other places.
There are other places where that happens but he doesn't say that here.
He says, I simply say that we have no other custom than this.
This is what we do here.
No, that's a great jumping off point into like other time periods and culturally what
was considered appropriate because you think back in medieval times, we were all boobs
out.
Boobs were out.
Men were wearing, I don't know, heels.
Men were wearing dresses at one point.
And heels and makeup.
And do you think back into like the 50s, 60s when women started to be able to wear pants,
kind of?
And that was very controversial but now we've really said that's okay women, you can wear
jeans, you can wear leggings, you can wear skirts, you can wear dresses.
It's all about culture.
It's all about kind of just what's okay at the time.
Well, and there was a time, there was, I think, you know, we like to take our modern era and
push it back and pretend this is what it's always been.
But there was a large stretch of time really up until fairly modern history where Christian
women or like women of Protestant type faith were not dressing any differently than anybody
else.
And I was having this conversation with my mom because I was reading this blog and I
was getting a little raging.
We have the same mom.
You too.
Hi mom.
I was having this conversation with her and she was like, well, Christian women weren't
dressing differently because everyone was dressing modestly back then.
So no big deal.
And this was just kind of a devil's advocate situation.
My mom very much agrees.
You don't talk about the devil.
I'm sorry.
My mom very much agrees with what we have to say on a lot of things.
But she was kind of saying, well, you know, everybody dressed modestly back then.
So modesty just wouldn't have been an issue.
But that's us, you know, painting a rosy picture of the past.
When the reality is, like you said, there was a time period where like corsets were
shoving boobs all the way up.
They were very visible.
They were, women were wearing, I honestly don't know what you call them, but like bumps
on their butt to make their butt look.
I knew the word for it.
Booty bumps?
Bustle?
No, it's not a bustle.
Whatever it was, you know, like to emphasize their butts.
To create a unique shape.
Like the corsets were very, very tight to make their waists look tiny.
And modesty wasn't like a debate at that time.
It wasn't like, oh, you can't wear this because God wants something different of you.
They just didn't want to show their ankles.
But their boobs were fine.
But modesty was different then.
And then you get into like the 20s when they would bind their boobs.
They wanted to look like men.
So it's just cultural.
But something that I can't also just drive by because it's very important.
You can barely drive.
I can barely park.
I can drive just fine.
Thank you.
So is the verses prior to kind of the head coverings section that were conveniently cut
out of the blog?
Hahaha.
Basically, Paul is doing what Paul does very, very well all throughout the New Testament.
Paul presents first what people have always thought.
So what's going on in their culture at the time?
Patriarchy.
Men came first and all women came from men and the man is the head of the household and
etc., etc., etc.
But then he immediately turns it on its head.
He doesn't just leave it there.
He flips it around and he says, but we're not like that.
We as God's people are different.
And don't you remember every man since then has come from a woman?
Paul literally says that.
Like it is biblical.
Don't forget guys, you might have been first, but you wouldn't be here without the rest
of the women.
Yeah.
Good luck pushing a watermelon out your nostril.
Gonna have to cut that too.
And I just don't understand why we can't read the whole chapter without taking out little
pieces and making them say what we want.
Like I read through the entire chapter and Paul's message is very clear.
We are different.
We are living in a society that says one thing, but we are different from the rest of them.
We should be different.
And here's how we should be different.
Maxi skirts and Birkenstocks.
He's saying that it doesn't matter in God's kingdom who came first.
Men aren't independent of men, but men also aren't independent of women.
We all need one another.
We are the body of Christ and some of you might be the butt.
Full circle.
But we need the butt.
So what we're saying.
One of the points that gets made a lot is that you are not alone in your faith.
You belong to a community of believers and it is your job as part of that community to
help the rest of your brothers and sisters in Christ not sin.
No one is alone.
You've been holding that one in huh?
And this is where we really get into shaming women into modesty.
This is harder, the harder part for me to talk about because of experiences that I've
had.
So the overall message is that you have a responsibility toward your brothers in Christ
to not do something that would make them sin.
That would cause them to sin.
And your body by virtue of just you know having boobs and stuff is going to cause them to
sin apparently because they just have no self control right?
How about we teach some respect?
How about that?
But that's the message.
That's the message that not only was I taught when I was younger and in very conservative
churches but the message that was shared with me as an adult in non-denominational churches
that I thought had my back.
Like you said before, it's like being told constantly like everyone is going to look
at you and just lust after you and it's your responsibility to not let that happen.
To hide yourself.
And if for some reason they are lusting after you or whatever, it's because of something
that you did.
Right.
And then should something happen where you are abused in the church, it's because of
the way you dressed.
And you know this is a message that's out in society too.
So it's not just the Christian community but it's heavy in the Christian community.
It's because you always wear leggings.
It's because your shirts are too tight.
It's because you wear heels.
It's whatever.
Clearly it's your fault.
For anyone that's been told that, I'm very sorry.
I'm so sorry.
I can't begin to describe how wrong that is.
How unbiblical that is.
They say women are leaving churches in droves and with that being a major message given
to women, I don't blame them.
I hate talking about this because it's shameful that that's where the church has landed.
It's shameful.
And I feel like a lot of churches won't outwardly say that, but it's in their actions.
Like if a woman comes to them and says, a man was looking at me inappropriately or he
said something inappropriate.
Touched me inappropriately.
Any of those things.
They're like, you should talk to him.
Or thank you for letting us know, but nothing happens.
Nothing moves forward with it.
So it's all in their actions.
And I would absolutely leave a church that I felt was not protecting me or other women.
One of the verses that she references that a lot of people will reference when they're
talking about this, because again, modesty is never mentioned in the Bible in this context.
So one of the verses is first Corinthians one two, where it says that we are called
to be saints together.
And essentially the modesty argument boils that down to us being on board with preventing
one another from sin.
And like, look, I'm not saying, you know what you should do?
Go really piss some people off so they sin.
Like I'm not saying you should actively antagonize everyone and whatever.
But when it comes to this, nothing that I am doing by what I wear actively causes someone
else's sin.
They choose to react how they're going to react.
Because God gave us free will, baby.
You have a brain in your head, use it.
And this argument of stopping other people from sin is only ever used in the modesty
conversation.
Never else, never ever do we hear this used again.
Like I have yet to hear someone say to a man, you know, you could really help prevent your
wife from sinning by helping out around the house more because she gets really angry.
Or the way that you're yelling at that football game is making your wife full of rage.
Rage is a sin.
Or the way that you're yelling at that football game is causing your children to be angry
and to create unhealthy behaviors.
The way that you put that football game above God on Sundays, when you canceled church because
of a football game, does not teach good things.
I think we've said that this in every podcast so far.
If you're not going to take your own rule all the way, all the way, that's Celine Dion,
then it doesn't work anymore.
You don't, it doesn't hold any weight anymore.
We have all these rules, but they only actually apply to you.
Not us.
Like until you start to tell me that you're going to do everything in your possible power
to stop me from doing any sin, that's going to become your entire life's mission is stopping
me from sinning, which by the way is insane.
But until that happens, your modesty argument doesn't make sense.
I shouldn't have to police myself because you can't control yourself.
And I think it goes back to that other, I don't know where exactly it is in the Bible,
but where it says instead of looking at the splinter in my eye, look at the log in yours.
I know those aren't the words, but how about we just worry about ourselves.
Quit trying to critique and guide and parent everybody else.
Belief.
Yeah.
Focus on yourself.
You feel like you shouldn't show your knees, don't show your knees.
But I'ma show my knees.
Or I might not, depending on my mood.
I think this is a message to men and women.
We're teaching men in Christianity, but also in broader society, that they have no responsibility
for their actions.
That it's all about the woman and how she dresses and how she behaves.
And they have no control over themselves.
In conservative Christian circles, they say men should be the priest, the provider, the
protector, the other P word.
I don't know what the P word is.
But at the same time, don't wear a bra strap because they might sin because of you.
It just doesn't make sense in my head that they should be all of these things, but also
kind of baby them a little bit because they can't control themselves.
They're so weak.
If they should be the protector, provider, the priest, they should absolutely be able
to control themselves.
Control not just their actions, but also their thoughts and their eyeballs.
Yeah.
And this is just kind of anecdotal now, but as women, especially in the church, we are
taught that we're always wrong in this regard and to always question ourselves in this regard.
If a man is looking at us inappropriately.
And let me tell you men, if you're looking at our boobs, we know.
We know.
You're not subtle.
Oh my gosh, we know.
Like, I just, it's so gross.
I don't even know.
It makes you feel like not a person.
Yeah.
Like I want to run away.
Yeah.
It's not sexy.
It's not cute.
No.
Stop doing it.
But we're taught to second guess what we know to be true.
When you're standing talking to a man and his eyes can't manage to meet your eyes because
they're constantly staring at your boobs, you're taught to think, no, he probably is,
he's probably just shy and he probably just struggles to make eye contact and you know,
they're right there.
So why not?
Or when he touches you inappropriately, you're told to think or told to tell yourself, I
guess, that it was just an accident.
He didn't really mean it.
He would never do that.
Maybe it's just a flaw about himself that he's not aware of.
Direct quote.
We're taught to think these things into second guess ourselves.
And it puts us in a dangerous position.
Because if you can't pull yourself out of that thought process, and you can't say, no,
this is inappropriate, I need to walk away from this person.
And unfortunately, we don't usually get the church support.
Because women, I think, were taught always to never make a situation uncomfortable.
You always just want to smooth things over.
You don't want to make waves.
So if a guy won't look you in the eyes, you might politely be like, try to change the
subject or instead of just being like, get down to where his eyes are, look up at him
and be like, I'm done talking to you now because my eyes are up here.
And walk away.
Like, you never want to make them uncomfortable.
Or like, you're at a bar and some guy is harassing you for your number.
Like, just give him a number, but just give him the wrong number.
Or no, say no.
This is a whole...
I'm jumping off into a whole other topic.
I mean, we can...
It's okay to be rude.
It's okay to stand up for yourself and protect yourself.
And can I say to you, it's okay for all women to be rude, but in particular, not because
it's more important for this, but because we're not told this, it's okay for Christian
women to be rude to men in these situations.
To call them out, to smack their hands, whatever it takes.
Can I say this from place of not knowing that I could?
And I wish someone would have said that to me instead of what was said to me.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
And if I was there, someone would be castrated.
Women out there, you are not alone.
You have, like, and we've said a million times, you have value beyond just your body and also
your body, if that makes sense.
And know that it is, it's not society given, it's God given.
So often we hear treat your body like a temple.
And it's in regards to like exercise and eating healthy and maybe not getting that piercing
that you were thinking about and don't get tattoos.
But how about we just look in the mirror and say, I love you.
Is that weird?
No, but I love you and I respect you.
And I hold value.
Matthew 22, 37 through 40.
You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul and all your mind.
This is the first and greatest commandment.
The second is equally important.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.
If you look in the Bible, who Jesus was talking to when he said these words were the Pharisees.
The harshest words Jesus ever speaks in the Bible are towards the people who are trying
to hold up the religious law.
Something else that I was actually just reading about that verse, I think it's cool that you
brought that up.
Someone posted, one of the people that I follow on Facebook posted recently, and they said,
you know, the Bible says to love your neighbor as yourself.
And the example of that is that you have to love yourself well.
You can't love your neighbor as yourself.
If you hate yourself, if you hate your body, God made you.
He made you as you are.
God made you special.
He loves you very much.
That's how we should end it.
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