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Welcome to the We Are More podcast.

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My name is Alyssa.

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And my name's Bri.

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We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.

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We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His

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word.

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And apparently that's controversial.

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It's a bit comfy.

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Hello and welcome to episode four of We Are More.

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It's episode four already.

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How did we get here?

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Through episodes one through three.

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Oh, thank you.

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That was helpful.

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There we go.

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Energy.

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Energy.

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So today we're going to be talking about modesty.

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And we're pretty excited to hit this one because this is deeply ingrained in both of our histories.

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I know.

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And like you said the other day, we're going to hit some of the major topics within the

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first couple episodes.

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But don't you be afraid.

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We're going to roll back around to dig even deeper into each topic.

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We just kind of wanted to give the basics for anybody who's, whether you're starting

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out on this path or wondering why we believe what we believe, just to kind of give all

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of it at once and then like Free said, come back and dig a little deeper.

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Listen to the first four episodes and then if you hate us, leave.

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Good.

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That's a great message.

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If you like us, stick around for more.

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We are fun.

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We're more fun with wine.

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We don't have that tonight.

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So it is what it is.

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We were first going to kind of go into a little bit of what we were taught growing up in conservative

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evangelical churches, whether that came from like our parents, our family, our church,

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our society.

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And because I think if you didn't grow up in the world that we grew up in, this was

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not normal.

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So Bri, what were some things that were normal in your world?

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Like you cannot wear this.

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When we were younger, it was like two piece bathing suits.

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And then we graduated to like tankinis and that was like, woo wee.

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Like major.

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No short shorts.

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Short shorts.

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Short skirts, like mini skirts were very in style for a while and that was not a thing

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for us.

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Now, to be fair, some of it is just like safety purposes as a kid.

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And I totally get that.

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But this was more like Christianity based rules, I would say.

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Well it all comes back to modesty.

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Like it wasn't, now I can't say what, like what our parents reasoning was behind it,

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but what the reasoning, like the reasoning that we were given, the message behind why

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we had all these rules was because that's what God wants of you for a lot of reasons

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and we'll go into those as we record.

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But I think one of the big results of all of that for me, and I think that this is for

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both of us really, was kind of learning to be ashamed of our bodies.

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Yeah, and I feel like that is a huge topic that we're gonna dig even deeper into.

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But yeah, even if you're the skinniest person in the world, even if you're the thinnest

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person and you have the best shape and you should have all the confidence in the world,

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if you grow up being told you can't show that, you can't do this, you're gonna make someone

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else stumble, you're gonna feel ashamed of your body.

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Your body that God created that you have no control over is gonna make someone else sin.

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And so that makes you ashamed of yourself and your existence, honestly.

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Well and like for me, based on my body type, clothes were not made to fit someone with

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my body type.

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The junior section at Kohl's did not have stuff built to fit me.

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And so I was stuck either wearing clothes for women much older than myself, or wearing

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clothes that I was told were inappropriate.

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Everything had to have a tank top.

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Now I know that that was like early 2000s fashion was all about the layering.

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But my gosh, the layering.

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Like you can wear a sundress, but you also want to wear jeans underneath.

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One of the things that like really sticks out to me from my childhood was my... and

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okay love my parents.

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Don't get me wrong here.

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Hi mom, hi dad.

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Hi mom and dad.

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But they would always tell me to pull my shirt up higher because you know, you can't get

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it quite high enough.

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And so they would do... and I can't show you guys because...

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It's a podcast.

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But they would like mimic like pulling your shirt up, like pinching your shirt and pulling

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it up.

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And people caught on to this.

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Like other family members and friends would catch on to the fact that they were doing

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that.

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And so they would do it to me too.

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And again, I love all these people.

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You're not the only one.

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I got that too.

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Yeah.

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And it's just like it immediately makes you feel very conscious of your body in a very

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negative way.

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And they're looking at you there.

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I think that's a huge thing.

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Like, hey, if it bothers you, don't look.

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Well also we were teenagers.

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Nobody should have been looking.

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Now not just in the Christian circles, just like as women in general, I remember to like

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shout out to all the band camp kids.

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One of the rules at band camp was you weren't allowed to show your bra straps.

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Oh, they got so mad.

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They were so mad.

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And it's like as high school girls, it's hot.

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You're marching outside all day.

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Like you don't want to wear a t-shirt.

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You want to wear something that has less clothing, less material on it because you're burning

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hot.

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And the counselors would go around and there was one lady that would duct tape your bra

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straps together.

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So they were out of sight.

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And I'm like, are you kidding me?

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Is it that like, am I going to make the high school boys freak out that much?

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Because you can say a piece of sweaty fabric that holds up my boobs.

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Well, but think about how like that verges on assaults to, cause she would just come

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up behind you with tape.

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Like it wasn't like, let me pull you aside nicely and have a conversation.

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She would violently come up to you with tape and strap you down.

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Good luck getting that off too.

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And how embarrassing for a teenage girl.

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It draws way more attention than just a bra strap slipping.

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And thinking back on that is horrific to me.

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Horrifying.

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Like why are we doing this to girls?

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Horrifying.

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And, and like Bri said, that was not in the Christian circles even.

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So this is not a, this is not a Christian specific issue.

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Even though it does, it does lend itself to the Christian sphere in a lot of ways.

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Different denominations, different segments of Christianity believe different things about

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modesty.

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So you'll see the more extreme people like you think the Duggars, where like heaven forbid

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you show an ankle.

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All women should wear skirts and dresses at all times.

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Your hair is your pride and joy.

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So don't cut that like Samson.

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But then there's much more relaxed, like non-denominational views.

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So you kind of in Christianity get several different beliefs on modesty.

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But I think what we should dive into today is like, where does it all stem from?

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What does the Bible specifically say about modesty?

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Right.

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Well, and it, I think it extends to a lot of places.

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So we're, we're looking at some notes here too.

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Oh, I'm illiterate.

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I can't read.

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Oh, poor Bri.

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Oh, it's really hard for me.

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So hard.

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I mean, it is nine o'clock.

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I'm reading the notes.

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Denim jackets and maxi skirts.

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Yes!

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Not that I don't like those things.

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Bri likes to look like a youth pastor.

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I do.

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I think part of what we wanted to talk about too, and this might just need to be moved

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to a different area.

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But it all comes in on modesty because it's not just the clothes that you wear.

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It's tattoos, it's piercings, it's makeup, it's all of the things that are put on women.

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And with women, especially when it comes to all of these things, there's such a fine line

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we have to walk.

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Don't be tempting to men, but also don't be ugly.

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Yeah, I would say, oh my gosh, yes, because don't be too tempting, but also put on your

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makeup.

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Right.

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And don't wear those clothes, but also don't look like a bum.

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Don't be frumpy.

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Yeah.

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Come to church in your best.

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Yes.

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Ugh!

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We'll get there.

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We'll get there!

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And it's like, Brie and I are very into our makeup.

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We've always been, we watch the YouTube videos, you know, we buy the faint stuff, whatever.

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And that looks down upon, has been looked down upon in our circles because we put on

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too much eyeliner, there's too much contouring going on, for whatever reason, you know.

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If your nose looks too structured, ever for a bit.

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Or like we would wear, I had gray lipstick and you had the green lipstick, right?

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I did.

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So that's too much.

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You've gone too far with the makeup.

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But if I walk into church with not an ounce of makeup on my face, I'm also going to get

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crap.

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Like you should look your absolute best walking into church.

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God doesn't want to see that.

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And I will probably say this 10 times in this podcast.

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Everything that I can possibly do is going to impress the Creator.

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The Creator of the heavens and the earth.

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No amount of makeup that I put on my body or clothes is going to make him go, wow, she

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looks great today.

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I was like, oh, she really put in the effort.

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But I mean, think about that.

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Break that down.

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Not just the God of the universe, but the God that made your face.

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The God that made your body.

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We think we're going to impress him with the right amount of highlighter and a turtleneck.

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Like no, we're not going to do that.

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What do they say about that aesthetic?

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It's like the Christian girl autumn or something like that aesthetic.

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Blue jean and turtlenecks.

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So let's go into what biblical modesty actually means.

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Because modesty is only mentioned a couple times in the scripture.

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And it's not what we think of as modesty today.

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It's very different.

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So I got ragey one time talking about modesty with someone and I came home and researched

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it and I wrote down an essay.

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She sent me a picture at like midnight.

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Because I'm just like we've talked about before, like the fire in our veins, like in that song,

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it just it riles you up.

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I think it's important to mention, like you said, I think last week, two weeks ago, last

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last episode, the Bible was written for everyone, but not to everyone.

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So whoever was writing these passages about modesty in the Bible, it wasn't specifically

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to 2024, Elizabeth Breanna.

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It was written to, you know, Mary Magdalene, I don't know, was written to the Israelites

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back in right around Jesus's time.

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So just like a quick Google search on like what verses bring up modesty, you'll pretty

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quickly find First Timothy two, and then I chose like eight through 10.

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And it says, in every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up

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to God free from anger and controversy.

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I want to pause on that one for a minute.

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How often are we hearing about in church, free from anger and controversy men?

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Because hello, father, full of rage.

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How often are you lifting up your holy hands?

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Sorry, dad, sorry dad.

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Continuing on, verse nine, and I want women to be modest in their appearance.

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They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the

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way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.

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This is specifically like in church in worship.

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Don't stand out.

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Right.

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Don't go crazy.

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And then it goes on to say, for women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves

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attractive by the good things they do.

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So here we go.

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Women can't wear their wedding ring.

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So from that passage, I understood we shouldn't be ragey.

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I shouldn't do my hair crazy in church and stop wearing your wedding rings and your Michael

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course and your coach.

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Well, that's really hurtful, Brianna, and I feel very attacked.

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But it doesn't mention anything other than don't wear your hair crazy and don't wear

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your most expensive items.

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Which let's point out, that's exactly what we're doing at church.

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Right.

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That's what we've always been taught to do.

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We're all about appearance at church, it seems like, at least in the churches that I've been

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in.

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But you're always about the outside and not necessarily what's inside.

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Well, I mean, think about when we were kids, and again, part of this is just of the times,

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but we had Sunday dresses.

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You think of your Sunday best.

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We had the fanciest dresses that we owned were to go to church in.

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And the same thing nowadays, like it's a little bit different, obviously, because I'm not

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wearing a dress to church, but it's unlikely that I'm going to show up to church in a hoodie

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and whatever.

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I mean, I do because I'm me.

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But like most people are unlikely to do that.

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We're walking into church wearing our best, wearing our Sunday best.

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And that is exactly what Paul says not to do.

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So then from there, I looked up what was traditional dress for people in Bible times to wear?

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To church to wear at all.

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And it says traditionally in Bible times, women would wear tunics, something called

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palas, which is essentially a shawl and sandals.

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I don't see anywhere in there that they're hitting up Victoria's Secret and picking up

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a bra, first of all.

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If I showed up to church without a bra, that would be scandalous.

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People would have words.

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People would lose an eye.

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But really, you might be asked to leave.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I don't think Paul knew anything about maxi dresses and Birkenstocks.

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I really don't.

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But I mean, it's just if that's what modesty means in the Bible, if that's what Paul was

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referencing, then we've added a whole lot to the Bible in what we say modesty is and

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what we say Christian modesty is.

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And I think that's the issue is we're putting so many words into God's mouth.

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It just says appropriate clothing.

281
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Well, who defines what's appropriate?

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Well, obviously the male pastors that have been in charge forever.

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How about it's up to your own discretion what you feel comfortable with and what you don't?

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For some people, yeah, maybe you're, I don't like the dimples on my knees, so I don't want

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to show them.

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Fine.

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But that doesn't mean biblically you can't show your knees.

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You know, we're supposed to be led by the Holy Spirit, right?

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When Jesus went back to heaven, he said, I'm leaving my spirit with you to guide you.

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The Holy Spirit should be the one guiding everything that we do from what we wear to

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the way we speak to the way that we interact.

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All of these things should be guided by that.

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And so if I believe that you have the Holy Spirit within you, then I have to trust that

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you're following him in all of those things too.

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And I shouldn't be able to tell you actually your cleavage is making me uncomfortable.

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You're welcome.

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00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,260
And that'll be $10 for lookins.

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00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:19,320
But then you look up like, okay, where does the word modesty come from?

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Do I looked up that?

300
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,760
So there's two different translations, I guess.

301
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:32,400
So modesty comes from the Latin modus, which literally translates to keeping due measure,

302
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:39,720
knowing the correct measure of yourself, of yourself, not of others.

303
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,640
But in Greek, the translation is from this word called Cosmios.

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I'm very Greek.

305
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,360
Meaning good behavior, decent and orderly, inner self control.

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Once again, self.

307
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I can have self control completely nude.

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I can also have self control covered head to toe, like self control.

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Because it's about you, not about what the world is putting on you.

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Right.

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00:19:12,420 --> 00:19:19,800
And something that we haven't quite gotten to yet is the reason that Christian women

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00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:30,160
are told to be modest is because you don't want to make your brothers in Christ stumble.

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And for those of you who don't speak church speak, because that is like the churchiest

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00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,000
thing in the world.

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00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,760
So churchy.

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00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,520
People will say like, your brothers and sisters in Christ.

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00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,320
So that essentially just means other people who are following Jesus.

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Other Christians.

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00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:54,620
And when they say you don't want, this is only used in the case of modesty too.

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00:19:54,620 --> 00:19:58,360
When they say that you don't want to cause someone else to stumble, essentially they're

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00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:07,920
saying that as a woman, it is your responsibility to make sure that men don't look at you sexually.

322
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,240
I mean, that really is what it boils down to.

323
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:18,120
Instead of saying from the beginning, when we birth our baby boys, we teach them, hey,

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treat everyone with respect.

325
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,600
That other person's body does not belong to you.

326
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How about that?

327
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:25,600
Yeah.

328
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:30,400
And have that expectation of your sons, of your husbands, of your male friends, of the

329
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,600
men in your church, whoever they are.

330
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,040
Expect that they're not going to be awful.

331
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,040
Right.

332
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,480
And like grownups, quite treating them like babies.

333
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:46,320
Well, and that's what we do in so many of these cases is we treat men like infants.

334
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,560
They have no control over themselves.

335
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:49,560
No self control.

336
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,760
And you just said modesty means inner self control.

337
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,520
So we should teach modesty to men too.

338
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:57,520
Right.

339
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,360
Because it's about you.

340
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,520
Don't make that woman uncomfortable and stare at her.

341
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:04,680
It's very simple.

342
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:12,320
We teach girls, women, men too, to be ashamed of the bodies that God gave them.

343
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,680
No matter what you look like.

344
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,840
I think Bre and I talked in the last episode about how difficult it is to find resources

345
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,360
for biblical feminism.

346
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:26,240
And let me tell you, it keeps getting harder.

347
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:27,420
It's impossible.

348
00:21:27,420 --> 00:21:30,800
It's not because there are not good scholarly resources out there.

349
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,640
There absolutely are.

350
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:39,760
It's because the amount of trash on the internet is just like, it's overwhelming.

351
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,560
And you read these articles and they're not researched.

352
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,360
They're garbage.

353
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:45,960
They're poorly written.

354
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,760
But there's enough of them that they bog down the system.

355
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,440
So you can't get to the really good stuff.

356
00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:00,040
So I found an article.

357
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,040
Here we go.

358
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,040
Trash talking articles again.

359
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,040
This is the second episode.

360
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,040
Do you want to say it's by Schmikeschmarrn?

361
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,040
Thank you.

362
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,000
On modesty.

363
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:18,200
And I kind of based a lot of my research on this particular article because it kind of

364
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,880
encompassed a lot of what was being said in all the articles.

365
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,260
They kind of all say the same things.

366
00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:26,080
They all twist the same verses.

367
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,020
So I kind of based it off of that.

368
00:22:30,020 --> 00:22:34,480
So one of the things, and this is written by a woman, because let me tell you, women

369
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,800
are perpetuating all of this as much as men are.

370
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:44,080
Maybe even more sometimes, which is so sad.

371
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,160
You know what, maybe they just, I need to give them a hug or something.

372
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,840
Yeah, I'm not a hugger, but I'll do it.

373
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,840
You don't even like to hug me.

374
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,320
No, I don't.

375
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:02,480
So one of the things that she said is that when we choose our clothes, and I'm going

376
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:08,200
to try and not exactly quote her because that feels insulting.

377
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,960
You know what?

378
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,400
You do you.

379
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,680
But she said when we choose our clothes each day, we have an opportunity for discipleship.

380
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:23,140
Who knew my closet had such power?

381
00:23:23,140 --> 00:23:30,680
And she says that the question isn't necessarily how short or how low your clothing is, even

382
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,960
though you might have to answer those things along the way.

383
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:34,960
It's about identity.

384
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,960
It's about who you are.

385
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,440
My closet has so much power, Brianna.

386
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,520
It's so impressive.

387
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,640
It's very Narnia.

388
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:51,560
And so I, you know, my response to that was essentially that the issue isn't in what she's

389
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:52,560
saying.

390
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,080
It's about that she makes it biblical.

391
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,080
Right.

392
00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:01,360
You know, if you want to dress with a higher cut top and longer shorts, do you?

393
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:02,840
Totally up to you.

394
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,760
Yeah, whatever your comfort level is, dress to your comfort level.

395
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:08,760
For whatever reason.

396
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:09,760
You don't have to have a reason.

397
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:10,760
No.

398
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:18,680
But when you start to make your opinions biblical, you start to assign God to your thoughts,

399
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,640
that's when it becomes a problem.

400
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:27,200
Just because you have decided that short shorts are not discipling the rest of the world does

401
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,840
not mean that the Bible also says that.

402
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,760
She at one point also says, what we wear tells a story about who we are.

403
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,960
It's very deep, very deep.

404
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,280
And I said, you know, but what, but what is that story?

405
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,800
And why is that story defined by what we wear?

406
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,720
The Bible doesn't ever say that.

407
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,200
I feel like the only story that would be said with me are like, did you decide to wear short

408
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,680
shorts today?

409
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:55,680
Your thighs chafed.

410
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,200
It's some shame on you.

411
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:05,120
My story would be, could you stop wearing athleisure for one day?

412
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:06,120
No.

413
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:07,960
Do you own real pants?

414
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,160
Why do you have 17 pairs of black leggings?

415
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,160
17?

416
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,480
My whole drawer is full of black leggings.

417
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,920
17 would be getting rid of most of them.

418
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,800
Back in the day, do you remember?

419
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,800
Leggings weren't pants.

420
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,800
Leggings were not pants.

421
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,840
That was a big thing back in like the mid 2000s.

422
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:31,480
But I think we can look at the Bible and really recognize that this is not true.

423
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,680
If we pull this statement apart, what we wear tells a story about who we are.

424
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:36,680
Okay.

425
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,120
So let's look into the Old Testament.

426
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:42,560
There is a point where in the Old Testament, the Israelites are told that they can't have

427
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,840
a bowl cut, which is like the goofiest thing in the world.

428
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,880
Sorry, every child from the 70s.

429
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:50,880
Right.

430
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:56,560
Like it's literally now, again, we're not supposed to follow the old law, but for them

431
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,520
at the time, it was biblical to not have a bowl cut.

432
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,960
It was also biblical not to have tattoos at that time under the old law.

433
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,960
I am not.

434
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:07,960
I've got tattoos guys.

435
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:08,960
Like I'm not.

436
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:09,960
I don't.

437
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:10,960
You're welcome, grandma.

438
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,960
That could be the title.

439
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,960
I think we've decided that's our tagline.

440
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:23,600
I think our tagline should be sorry, grandma.

441
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,480
And because to us, none of that makes any sense, right?

442
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,600
It's just why no bowl cuts?

443
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,920
Why no tattoos?

444
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,040
It doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.

445
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:39,400
Now the reasoning behind it when you dig into it is because those things were done to worship

446
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,320
other gods.

447
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:47,520
There were other cultures that part of how you knew that they were part of this religion

448
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,000
is that they had a bowl cut.

449
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,880
That is absolutely insane to me.

450
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,240
They had to do something easy.

451
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:58,320
I can tell that you're worshiping, I don't know, Zeus because you have a bowl cut.

452
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,880
They didn't have a lot of resources, okay?

453
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:09,840
And so that was kind of the definition of here's how your body should look.

454
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,480
There's not a lot of times in scripture where that happens, but this was one of those times

455
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:22,840
and it was very specifically due to the fact that this meant worshiping another god.

456
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:29,360
So okay, if at some point some religion says the way we define ourselves is because we

457
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:35,200
are wearing short shorts, then okay, maybe don't wear those short shorts.

458
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,240
But that's the only reason.

459
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:44,320
Not just because it's going to tempt someone else or because of whatever.

460
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:52,000
So one of the other things that she talks about is that when Adam and Eve realized that

461
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,680
they were naked when they sinned, you know, God made them clothes.

462
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:04,600
And she goes into this whole thing about how and God lovingly made these beautiful clothes

463
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,120
for them.

464
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:11,800
And I'd like to think that they were not at all like, you know, the caveman-esque type

465
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,320
clothes, that they were beautiful clothes and tailored wonderfully and blah blah blah.

466
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,240
She goes on and on, right?

467
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,240
What?

468
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,200
Like, where is this coming from?

469
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,200
Give me a verse.

470
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,200
I know.

471
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,500
Maybe that could be our tagline.

472
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:27,520
Give me a verse.

473
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:34,960
Give me a verse that says, God came down from the heavens with a brother sewing machine and

474
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:42,440
fashioned finest garments in all of Eden.

475
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:48,440
And I think that's crazy because like, from where we're standing on the Christian feminist

476
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:57,240
viewpoint, or just the general feminist viewpoint, we get crap all the time about putting words

477
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,360
in God's mouth, adding to the Bible, right?

478
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,860
Tell me that's not adding to the Bible.

479
00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:10,600
And she uses that as a point to say, because God lovingly took the time to fashion their

480
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,000
clothes, that means he cares about their clothes and what they wear.

481
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,000
And therefore, we should care about the clothes and what we wear and we should hide our bodies.

482
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,960
We've gone on a journey.

483
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,440
Even though, remember, God made our bodies.

484
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,800
And he made our bodies naked.

485
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:36,200
Like I'm not saying go out and strip, but God made us as we are.

486
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,920
He made our bodies without clothes.

487
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,440
We are not born clothed.

488
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:46,920
So that needs to play a factor in how we treat our bodies.

489
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:53,920
Some of the verses that she goes into, one of them is 1 Corinthians 6, 19 through 20.

490
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:54,920
And this is from the NLT.

491
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,600
It says, Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who lives

492
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,620
in you and was given to you by God?

493
00:30:00,620 --> 00:30:04,060
You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price.

494
00:30:04,060 --> 00:30:06,240
So you must honor God with your body.

495
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,000
The Bible does give a lot of examples of, you know, you don't belong to yourself, essentially.

496
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,560
Like you were bought with a price, you belong to God, etc.

497
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,880
etc. we see this again and again.

498
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:24,840
However, in this case, this verse is being taken completely out of context.

499
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:30,360
And I want to point out that in most modesty discussions, verses are being taken out of

500
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,360
context.

501
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,600
Like you don't read the whole thing.

502
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,360
Literally just read the whole chapter for goodness sakes.

503
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,260
They're not that long.

504
00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:46,360
So verse 18, the one right before this talks about running from sexual sin and immorality.

505
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,920
So the verse before it informs it, right?

506
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,400
It tells you what it's talking about.

507
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,000
So when it says your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who lives in you, you don't

508
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,040
belong to yourself, etc, etc.

509
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,040
It's not talking about your clothes.

510
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,960
Nope, it's talking about sexual immorality.

511
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,800
That is what it's talking about.

512
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,840
It's telling us what it's talking about.

513
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,400
And you don't just get to assign it meaning because you want to write a cutesy little

514
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:13,400
blog.

515
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,400
You're so violent.

516
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,320
That's not how it works.

517
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:23,160
It just frustrates me because because I have been told many times that I'm I'm making things

518
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,480
up when I say women have value in God's kingdom.

519
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:33,960
That when I say that women are not secondary to their husbands, or that women should preach

520
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:40,280
or any of these things, I get told, well, you're just cherry picking verses.

521
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,000
You're taking things out of context.

522
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,000
You're whatever.

523
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,460
But all of these people are taking things out of context.

524
00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:49,760
And this is not the only example.

525
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,320
So then the next section that I wanted to talk about is in First Corinthians.

526
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,560
Now, again, there's a section in here that's kind of cherry picked.

527
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,600
And this is a this is a big section like this just doesn't have to do with modesty.

528
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,680
This is like one of those ones that like it encompasses a lot.

529
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,400
And I don't know that we necessarily have the time to go into all of it.

530
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,280
We in fact do feel free.

531
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,040
But we'll we'll kind of dive into it a little bit.

532
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,240
So this is First Corinthians 11.

533
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,360
And I'm going to start in verse 17.

534
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,640
Generally this is started verse 11.

535
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:30,160
But I think verse seven is where reading more of the Bible just never does never hurt.

536
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,600
It does never hurt.

537
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,160
So this whole passage is really interesting.

538
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,880
So just go with me as as we read it.

539
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:38,880
And this is NLT again.

540
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,920
It says a man should not wear anything on his head when worshiping for man is made in

541
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,860
God's image and reflects God's glory and women reflects man's glory.

542
00:32:47,860 --> 00:32:51,840
For the first man did not come from woman, but the first woman came from man.

543
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,080
And man was not made for woman but woman was made for man.

544
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,880
For this reason, and because the angels are watching a woman should wear a covering on

545
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,280
her head to show she is under authority.

546
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,400
But I love it.

547
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,840
booty booty butt.

548
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,240
Among the Lord's people, women are not independent of men and men are not independent of women.

549
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,240
For although the first woman came from man, every other man was born from a woman and

550
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,360
everything comes from God.

551
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,560
Judge for yourselves, is it right for a woman to pray to God in public without covering

552
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:23,560
her head?

553
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,560
Isn't it obvious that it's disgraceful for a man to have long hair?

554
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,680
And isn't long hair a woman's pride and joy?

555
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,060
For it has been given to her as a covering.

556
00:33:31,060 --> 00:33:34,760
But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other customs in

557
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,840
this and neither do God's other churches.

558
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,560
So that's a long section and there's so much to dig into there like this.

559
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:42,560
But it's so good.

560
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,560
It's so good.

561
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:50,200
I've I've really learned to love Paul over as we've been researching this and I gotta

562
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,400
tell you I did not like Paul prior to this.

563
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:53,720
I know.

564
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,760
Because Paul does say a lot about women.

565
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:01,280
But again, this is if you're reading it correctly, he's empowering women.

566
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:02,280
Exactly.

567
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:03,760
It's not what we've been told.

568
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,880
Setting Christianity apart from the rest of the world in that way.

569
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,380
So I think the first thing to dive into because this is the topic of this podcast is the modesty

570
00:34:13,380 --> 00:34:16,160
aspect here.

571
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,360
So the author of the particular article that I was reading used this as an argument to

572
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,020
say that women should be different from men.

573
00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:27,400
So essentially that the rules for women are different than the rules for men.

574
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,180
So we have to be modest.

575
00:34:29,180 --> 00:34:32,480
But apparently men can men can do whatever they want.

576
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,800
So again, we're ignoring the context.

577
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,940
If we try and say that that means that women are different from men, that that's the purpose

578
00:34:40,940 --> 00:34:43,120
of these verses that Paul is writing.

579
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,240
First of all, again, we're ignoring context because the verse before this talks about

580
00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:49,600
how men and women are equal in God's kingdom.

581
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,120
Can I just hit that point a little harder?

582
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,320
You missed it.

583
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,360
I smacked a desk.

584
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,200
And beyond that, like what is the argument here?

585
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:08,680
Is it that like women need to be modest, but if a man wears a bikini, that's totally fine?

586
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,940
Like, are we okay with speedos?

587
00:35:13,940 --> 00:35:14,940
Because I'm not.

588
00:35:14,940 --> 00:35:15,940
I'm not.

589
00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:22,280
I mean, but I guess do you do you but I'm just seeing one too many things.

590
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,040
I'm not gonna look.

591
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:25,520
A message for men.

592
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,360
A message for men.

593
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,240
I think it's just it's a silly argument.

594
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:36,240
Like it's a pointless argument to say that this set of verses, we're gonna boil it down,

595
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:42,800
make it so simplistic, that all it says is women's rules are different than men's rules

596
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,440
and women need to be modest and men can do whatever the crap they want.

597
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:52,960
He says we have no customs other than like men shouldn't have long hair but women should

598
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,480
because that's covering for them.

599
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,720
Okay, well what about alopecia?

600
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:06,040
What about like cancer when it takes your hair?

601
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,300
Should we be ashamed of that?

602
00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:08,760
Should we cover that up?

603
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,920
No, we're not doing that.

604
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:16,360
Well, and he says, if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other

605
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,680
custom than this and neither do God's other churches.

606
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,640
So I think we have to recognize that some of what Paul is saying is very, very cultural.

607
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:29,740
He's not saying he specifically does not say and remember Paul chooses his words very carefully.

608
00:36:29,740 --> 00:36:36,080
He specifically does not say and this is God's command and this is what God wants of you

609
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:37,920
and he does that other places.

610
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,680
There are other places where that happens but he doesn't say that here.

611
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,680
He says, I simply say that we have no other custom than this.

612
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,320
This is what we do here.

613
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:52,640
No, that's a great jumping off point into like other time periods and culturally what

614
00:36:52,640 --> 00:37:01,800
was considered appropriate because you think back in medieval times, we were all boobs

615
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,800
out.

616
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,000
Boobs were out.

617
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,500
Men were wearing, I don't know, heels.

618
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:11,320
Men were wearing dresses at one point.

619
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,560
And heels and makeup.

620
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:21,280
And do you think back into like the 50s, 60s when women started to be able to wear pants,

621
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:22,280
kind of?

622
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:28,760
And that was very controversial but now we've really said that's okay women, you can wear

623
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,560
jeans, you can wear leggings, you can wear skirts, you can wear dresses.

624
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,080
It's all about culture.

625
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,080
It's all about kind of just what's okay at the time.

626
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:45,400
Well, and there was a time, there was, I think, you know, we like to take our modern era and

627
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,680
push it back and pretend this is what it's always been.

628
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:55,000
But there was a large stretch of time really up until fairly modern history where Christian

629
00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:02,680
women or like women of Protestant type faith were not dressing any differently than anybody

630
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,080
else.

631
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,360
And I was having this conversation with my mom because I was reading this blog and I

632
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,360
was getting a little raging.

633
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:09,360
We have the same mom.

634
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:10,360
You too.

635
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:11,360
Hi mom.

636
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:17,260
I was having this conversation with her and she was like, well, Christian women weren't

637
00:38:17,260 --> 00:38:20,520
dressing differently because everyone was dressing modestly back then.

638
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,720
So no big deal.

639
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:27,440
And this was just kind of a devil's advocate situation.

640
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:28,440
My mom very much agrees.

641
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:29,440
You don't talk about the devil.

642
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:30,440
I'm sorry.

643
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,000
My mom very much agrees with what we have to say on a lot of things.

644
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,180
But she was kind of saying, well, you know, everybody dressed modestly back then.

645
00:38:38,180 --> 00:38:41,680
So modesty just wouldn't have been an issue.

646
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,160
But that's us, you know, painting a rosy picture of the past.

647
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,240
When the reality is, like you said, there was a time period where like corsets were

648
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,480
shoving boobs all the way up.

649
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:52,960
They were very visible.

650
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,480
They were, women were wearing, I honestly don't know what you call them, but like bumps

651
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,040
on their butt to make their butt look.

652
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,840
I knew the word for it.

653
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:02,840
Booty bumps?

654
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:03,840
Bustle?

655
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:04,840
No, it's not a bustle.

656
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:10,000
Whatever it was, you know, like to emphasize their butts.

657
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,140
To create a unique shape.

658
00:39:12,140 --> 00:39:16,840
Like the corsets were very, very tight to make their waists look tiny.

659
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,320
And modesty wasn't like a debate at that time.

660
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,800
It wasn't like, oh, you can't wear this because God wants something different of you.

661
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,600
They just didn't want to show their ankles.

662
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,040
But their boobs were fine.

663
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,320
But modesty was different then.

664
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,040
And then you get into like the 20s when they would bind their boobs.

665
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,040
They wanted to look like men.

666
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,680
So it's just cultural.

667
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:47,560
But something that I can't also just drive by because it's very important.

668
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,160
You can barely drive.

669
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:50,560
I can barely park.

670
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,560
I can drive just fine.

671
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,200
Thank you.

672
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:02,760
So is the verses prior to kind of the head coverings section that were conveniently cut

673
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,440
out of the blog?

674
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:05,440
Hahaha.

675
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:13,320
Basically, Paul is doing what Paul does very, very well all throughout the New Testament.

676
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:19,200
Paul presents first what people have always thought.

677
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,760
So what's going on in their culture at the time?

678
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,040
Patriarchy.

679
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:33,000
Men came first and all women came from men and the man is the head of the household and

680
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,600
etc., etc., etc.

681
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,320
But then he immediately turns it on its head.

682
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,640
He doesn't just leave it there.

683
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,900
He flips it around and he says, but we're not like that.

684
00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:48,400
We as God's people are different.

685
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,640
And don't you remember every man since then has come from a woman?

686
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,200
Paul literally says that.

687
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,480
Like it is biblical.

688
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,160
Don't forget guys, you might have been first, but you wouldn't be here without the rest

689
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,160
of the women.

690
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:02,160
Yeah.

691
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,520
Good luck pushing a watermelon out your nostril.

692
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,400
Gonna have to cut that too.

693
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:15,240
And I just don't understand why we can't read the whole chapter without taking out little

694
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,520
pieces and making them say what we want.

695
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:26,280
Like I read through the entire chapter and Paul's message is very clear.

696
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,120
We are different.

697
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:35,060
We are living in a society that says one thing, but we are different from the rest of them.

698
00:41:35,060 --> 00:41:36,060
We should be different.

699
00:41:36,060 --> 00:41:38,160
And here's how we should be different.

700
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,280
Maxi skirts and Birkenstocks.

701
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,880
He's saying that it doesn't matter in God's kingdom who came first.

702
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,880
Men aren't independent of men, but men also aren't independent of women.

703
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,000
We all need one another.

704
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,080
We are the body of Christ and some of you might be the butt.

705
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,080
Full circle.

706
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,480
But we need the butt.

707
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,240
So what we're saying.

708
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:11,000
One of the points that gets made a lot is that you are not alone in your faith.

709
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:19,120
You belong to a community of believers and it is your job as part of that community to

710
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:27,120
help the rest of your brothers and sisters in Christ not sin.

711
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,000
No one is alone.

712
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,600
You've been holding that one in huh?

713
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:39,280
And this is where we really get into shaming women into modesty.

714
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:46,160
This is harder, the harder part for me to talk about because of experiences that I've

715
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:47,360
had.

716
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:54,960
So the overall message is that you have a responsibility toward your brothers in Christ

717
00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:00,120
to not do something that would make them sin.

718
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,120
That would cause them to sin.

719
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:08,280
And your body by virtue of just you know having boobs and stuff is going to cause them to

720
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,520
sin apparently because they just have no self control right?

721
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,720
How about we teach some respect?

722
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:17,560
How about that?

723
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:18,560
But that's the message.

724
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,720
That's the message that not only was I taught when I was younger and in very conservative

725
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:29,480
churches but the message that was shared with me as an adult in non-denominational churches

726
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:35,400
that I thought had my back.

727
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:42,480
Like you said before, it's like being told constantly like everyone is going to look

728
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:49,040
at you and just lust after you and it's your responsibility to not let that happen.

729
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,540
To hide yourself.

730
00:43:50,540 --> 00:43:58,620
And if for some reason they are lusting after you or whatever, it's because of something

731
00:43:58,620 --> 00:44:00,160
that you did.

732
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,160
Right.

733
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:07,120
And then should something happen where you are abused in the church, it's because of

734
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:08,880
the way you dressed.

735
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,680
And you know this is a message that's out in society too.

736
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:17,240
So it's not just the Christian community but it's heavy in the Christian community.

737
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:20,320
It's because you always wear leggings.

738
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,680
It's because your shirts are too tight.

739
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,240
It's because you wear heels.

740
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:26,660
It's whatever.

741
00:44:26,660 --> 00:44:28,800
Clearly it's your fault.

742
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,240
For anyone that's been told that, I'm very sorry.

743
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:34,360
I'm so sorry.

744
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:39,440
I can't begin to describe how wrong that is.

745
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,560
How unbiblical that is.

746
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:48,080
They say women are leaving churches in droves and with that being a major message given

747
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,880
to women, I don't blame them.

748
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:56,840
I hate talking about this because it's shameful that that's where the church has landed.

749
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:57,960
It's shameful.

750
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:05,720
And I feel like a lot of churches won't outwardly say that, but it's in their actions.

751
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:11,360
Like if a woman comes to them and says, a man was looking at me inappropriately or he

752
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,520
said something inappropriate.

753
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,120
Touched me inappropriately.

754
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:16,120
Any of those things.

755
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:20,120
They're like, you should talk to him.

756
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:25,160
Or thank you for letting us know, but nothing happens.

757
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,060
Nothing moves forward with it.

758
00:45:27,060 --> 00:45:28,280
So it's all in their actions.

759
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:35,840
And I would absolutely leave a church that I felt was not protecting me or other women.

760
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,080
One of the verses that she references that a lot of people will reference when they're

761
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:46,600
talking about this, because again, modesty is never mentioned in the Bible in this context.

762
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:52,540
So one of the verses is first Corinthians one two, where it says that we are called

763
00:45:52,540 --> 00:45:54,320
to be saints together.

764
00:45:54,320 --> 00:46:02,320
And essentially the modesty argument boils that down to us being on board with preventing

765
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,640
one another from sin.

766
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:09,340
And like, look, I'm not saying, you know what you should do?

767
00:46:09,340 --> 00:46:12,320
Go really piss some people off so they sin.

768
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:17,960
Like I'm not saying you should actively antagonize everyone and whatever.

769
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:24,520
But when it comes to this, nothing that I am doing by what I wear actively causes someone

770
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,520
else's sin.

771
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,080
They choose to react how they're going to react.

772
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,360
Because God gave us free will, baby.

773
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,080
You have a brain in your head, use it.

774
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:43,720
And this argument of stopping other people from sin is only ever used in the modesty

775
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:47,080
conversation.

776
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:52,080
Never else, never ever do we hear this used again.

777
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:57,920
Like I have yet to hear someone say to a man, you know, you could really help prevent your

778
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:05,160
wife from sinning by helping out around the house more because she gets really angry.

779
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,320
Or the way that you're yelling at that football game is making your wife full of rage.

780
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,440
Rage is a sin.

781
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,040
Or the way that you're yelling at that football game is causing your children to be angry

782
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:24,000
and to create unhealthy behaviors.

783
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:31,720
The way that you put that football game above God on Sundays, when you canceled church because

784
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:38,720
of a football game, does not teach good things.

785
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:41,960
I think we've said that this in every podcast so far.

786
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:51,280
If you're not going to take your own rule all the way, all the way, that's Celine Dion,

787
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,840
then it doesn't work anymore.

788
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,440
You don't, it doesn't hold any weight anymore.

789
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,600
We have all these rules, but they only actually apply to you.

790
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,040
Not us.

791
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:11,160
Like until you start to tell me that you're going to do everything in your possible power

792
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:17,200
to stop me from doing any sin, that's going to become your entire life's mission is stopping

793
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,000
me from sinning, which by the way is insane.

794
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:26,360
But until that happens, your modesty argument doesn't make sense.

795
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:32,620
I shouldn't have to police myself because you can't control yourself.

796
00:48:32,620 --> 00:48:37,280
And I think it goes back to that other, I don't know where exactly it is in the Bible,

797
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:44,640
but where it says instead of looking at the splinter in my eye, look at the log in yours.

798
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:50,720
I know those aren't the words, but how about we just worry about ourselves.

799
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:55,760
Quit trying to critique and guide and parent everybody else.

800
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:56,760
Belief.

801
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:57,760
Yeah.

802
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,560
Focus on yourself.

803
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,200
You feel like you shouldn't show your knees, don't show your knees.

804
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,080
But I'ma show my knees.

805
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,080
Or I might not, depending on my mood.

806
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,760
I think this is a message to men and women.

807
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:16,800
We're teaching men in Christianity, but also in broader society, that they have no responsibility

808
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,640
for their actions.

809
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,520
That it's all about the woman and how she dresses and how she behaves.

810
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,800
And they have no control over themselves.

811
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:32,640
In conservative Christian circles, they say men should be the priest, the provider, the

812
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,640
protector, the other P word.

813
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,280
I don't know what the P word is.

814
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:43,920
But at the same time, don't wear a bra strap because they might sin because of you.

815
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,320
It just doesn't make sense in my head that they should be all of these things, but also

816
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,600
kind of baby them a little bit because they can't control themselves.

817
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:53,600
They're so weak.

818
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,320
If they should be the protector, provider, the priest, they should absolutely be able

819
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,320
to control themselves.

820
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,640
Control not just their actions, but also their thoughts and their eyeballs.

821
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:04,640
Yeah.

822
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:10,880
And this is just kind of anecdotal now, but as women, especially in the church, we are

823
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:18,720
taught that we're always wrong in this regard and to always question ourselves in this regard.

824
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:22,240
If a man is looking at us inappropriately.

825
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,400
And let me tell you men, if you're looking at our boobs, we know.

826
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:26,560
We know.

827
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:27,560
You're not subtle.

828
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,040
Oh my gosh, we know.

829
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,360
Like, I just, it's so gross.

830
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,720
I don't even know.

831
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:38,320
It makes you feel like not a person.

832
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:39,320
Yeah.

833
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:40,320
Like I want to run away.

834
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:41,320
Yeah.

835
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:42,320
It's not sexy.

836
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:43,320
It's not cute.

837
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:44,320
No.

838
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:45,320
Stop doing it.

839
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:46,320
Stop doing it.

840
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,480
But we're taught to second guess what we know to be true.

841
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,960
When you're standing talking to a man and his eyes can't manage to meet your eyes because

842
00:50:54,960 --> 00:51:00,400
they're constantly staring at your boobs, you're taught to think, no, he probably is,

843
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:05,680
he's probably just shy and he probably just struggles to make eye contact and you know,

844
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:06,680
they're right there.

845
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,640
So why not?

846
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:15,560
Or when he touches you inappropriately, you're told to think or told to tell yourself, I

847
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,200
guess, that it was just an accident.

848
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,680
He didn't really mean it.

849
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,340
He would never do that.

850
00:51:22,340 --> 00:51:26,520
Maybe it's just a flaw about himself that he's not aware of.

851
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,520
Direct quote.

852
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:34,160
We're taught to think these things into second guess ourselves.

853
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:38,480
And it puts us in a dangerous position.

854
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:43,780
Because if you can't pull yourself out of that thought process, and you can't say, no,

855
00:51:43,780 --> 00:51:47,640
this is inappropriate, I need to walk away from this person.

856
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:54,040
And unfortunately, we don't usually get the church support.

857
00:51:54,040 --> 00:52:01,520
Because women, I think, were taught always to never make a situation uncomfortable.

858
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,720
You always just want to smooth things over.

859
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:06,360
You don't want to make waves.

860
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:13,000
So if a guy won't look you in the eyes, you might politely be like, try to change the

861
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:19,360
subject or instead of just being like, get down to where his eyes are, look up at him

862
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:25,600
and be like, I'm done talking to you now because my eyes are up here.

863
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:26,600
And walk away.

864
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,720
Like, you never want to make them uncomfortable.

865
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:33,600
Or like, you're at a bar and some guy is harassing you for your number.

866
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,000
Like, just give him a number, but just give him the wrong number.

867
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,720
Or no, say no.

868
00:52:39,720 --> 00:52:40,720
This is a whole...

869
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:43,880
I'm jumping off into a whole other topic.

870
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,200
I mean, we can...

871
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:47,560
It's okay to be rude.

872
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:51,960
It's okay to stand up for yourself and protect yourself.

873
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,960
And can I say to you, it's okay for all women to be rude, but in particular, not because

874
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,160
it's more important for this, but because we're not told this, it's okay for Christian

875
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:07,180
women to be rude to men in these situations.

876
00:53:07,180 --> 00:53:13,400
To call them out, to smack their hands, whatever it takes.

877
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:18,280
Can I say this from place of not knowing that I could?

878
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:23,520
And I wish someone would have said that to me instead of what was said to me.

879
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,720
I'm sorry that happened to you.

880
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:30,000
And if I was there, someone would be castrated.

881
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,100
Women out there, you are not alone.

882
00:53:33,100 --> 00:53:41,640
You have, like, and we've said a million times, you have value beyond just your body and also

883
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,880
your body, if that makes sense.

884
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:50,040
And know that it is, it's not society given, it's God given.

885
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,320
So often we hear treat your body like a temple.

886
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:59,540
And it's in regards to like exercise and eating healthy and maybe not getting that piercing

887
00:53:59,540 --> 00:54:01,920
that you were thinking about and don't get tattoos.

888
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:07,920
But how about we just look in the mirror and say, I love you.

889
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:08,920
Is that weird?

890
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,600
No, but I love you and I respect you.

891
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,040
And I hold value.

892
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,960
Matthew 22, 37 through 40.

893
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,940
You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul and all your mind.

894
00:54:22,940 --> 00:54:24,720
This is the first and greatest commandment.

895
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:26,600
The second is equally important.

896
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,400
Love your neighbor as yourself.

897
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:35,840
The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.

898
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:42,880
If you look in the Bible, who Jesus was talking to when he said these words were the Pharisees.

899
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:48,480
The harshest words Jesus ever speaks in the Bible are towards the people who are trying

900
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,940
to hold up the religious law.

901
00:54:51,940 --> 00:54:54,680
Something else that I was actually just reading about that verse, I think it's cool that you

902
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,380
brought that up.

903
00:54:57,380 --> 00:55:04,940
Someone posted, one of the people that I follow on Facebook posted recently, and they said,

904
00:55:04,940 --> 00:55:08,280
you know, the Bible says to love your neighbor as yourself.

905
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:15,280
And the example of that is that you have to love yourself well.

906
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,820
You can't love your neighbor as yourself.

907
00:55:18,820 --> 00:55:24,120
If you hate yourself, if you hate your body, God made you.

908
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:25,120
He made you as you are.

909
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:26,120
God made you special.

910
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:27,120
He loves you very much.

911
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:28,120
That's how we should end it.

912
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:35,320
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