[00:00:00] Dan: Hello. And welcome back to we, not me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I uh barely

[00:00:15] Dan: Hello, Pia Lee And I thought we could take a moment on this this uh episode to just reflect This is our fifth fifth episode of a have we not mean we're still still here What um are your reflections so far How's it going for you

[00:00:29] Pia: Well apple and Spotify have kicked us off yet And um and apparently there's been a few downloads so someone's actually listening out there So I've I've I feel I feel extremely grateful for that fact

[00:00:41] Dan: There someone out there

[00:00:42] Pia: there is someone there's someone out there now. I mean, in all seriousness, I don't know whether you meant to say this or not, but I am really, really enjoying this. It, it, it is quite an exciting liberating experience. And apart for your dear self and, you know, I was boring you to death on lots and lots of plane trips and train trips and car And so it's really fun now to do this this way, but I've just feel like we've got the opportunity to bring some really cool people that we know who know a lot about different aspects of how to get most out of people And That really flourishing almost like on this platform And they're just they're just thriving with different ideas and and that that's given me a a real buzz.

[00:01:30] Dan: It is good isn't It That there's sort of under-covered topic of teams I think there's something there's a lot of people have a lot of interest in it and a lot of experiences lurking beneath and for me I think having listened to a lot of podcasts it's really interesting to sort of really think about how how the experiences for listeners and the feedback we're getting is Is that people really liked the interview format So you've really diving deep and getting different angles on the teams.

[00:01:55] Pia: We're not overly scripted, we're not trying to run to a call sheet here It's it's pretty organic And that that to me is something pretty special

[00:02:03] Dan: And and I think the end of this subject is so underexplored I think we've got loads to run so yeah really looking forward to this next episode

[00:02:10] Pia: And in this next episode we're talking to Todd Schroeder from Google cloud. Dan how to did this happen So you know Todd's very senior guy and he's busy He's going to tell us that he's very busy how how did that happen then

[00:02:28] Dan: This came about when we were working with Todd talking about the squat defies that we done in um across Google cloud public sector looking at looking at the team health there And it was really interesting Some of the comments that Todd made about clarity made us realize wow this is quite different inside Google I think we sort of thought it'd be amazing to dive into that the first of those conditions and see what it's like in, in really severe And the mate such a fascinating company that I'm sure most of our listeners well like us we don't have much of a clue what's going on in there on a day-to-day basis So we thought right let's see if we can grab him and we can talk about this important topic

[00:03:10] Pia: And at the same time, I probably I'm interfacing with Google probably about five to 10 times every day as they're searching something

[00:03:19] Dan: Exactly and I mean we're on Google now Google Chrome

[00:03:22] Pia: well there we Little plug so great So let's head over and let's hear from

[00:03:29] Todd. So lovely to have you on the show with us today. Just, um, just tell us a little bit about who you are and, um, and a bit about your background.

[00:03:39] Todd: Sure. thanks for having me Pia dance, wonderful to be here. My name is Todd Schroeder. I'm currently the managing director for global public sector sales and strategy at Google cloud. Have the wonderful privilege to work in the company with, so many incredible individuals and serving a market that, as we've seen through the last. In particular, I'm really having an awesome responsibility with respect to everything, we as citizens or constituents, you know, have at our disposal. So I appreciate the time today.

[00:04:07] Pia: We've worked together and, um, and you are a wealth of knowledge. So we are expecially excited to have this conversation with you. So It probably would be a good place to start to really understand what's it like at Google? Tell us what the context is like. It's the most, the largest iconic tech company in the world. So this is this isn't lifting the lead to what's it like to work in there? we might have assumptions and beliefs and there may be totally wrong. So this is probably a good way to sort of set the record straight. What's it like. 

[00:04:40] Todd: It's amazing to put it shortly, but it is actually like you, an interesting thing to see it from the inside, from the outside, we have a consumer relationship with the company We're used to So many of his properties, search and Gmail, the notable billion user kind of platforms that are out there. From my own personal experience coming in and the way you're introduced to the company, it was almost a step back for me because I had the wrong impression when they introduced new employees to the company, which by the way, Yeah, they run these onboarding camps every week Have buildings built just for this the experience and the education of what it feels like. And also to make sure you snap into the culture. They say it very plainly. When you walk in the door, it's not a technology company, it's an innovation company. It's about new ideas. And that one singular kind of introduction just changed my thinking. And you can kind of see how lots of, you know, a lot of employees coming in the door probably had that same sort of impression like you, and so many people around the world have at a company, but it's fast. moving. There's huge amounts of customers. It is innovative. And so, over my tenure here now, what that means to me, we've heard phrases that this company has really coined, that has helped them be innovative and hit their mission, and fulfill their promise. One of the things that really sticks with me is agile We've heard about. being agile and introducing agile development methodologies in the world of technology for a long time. And that whole idea of Don't worry about the. Just start iterating, make incremental progress. You will deviate. You will find a new paths. You will do all these things. And That's taken a long time to break away from waterfall, based kind of methodologies.

[00:06:36] And to agile, this company has done that for decades to, to the point that it iterates in 30 minute increment. So if I can relate to all the listeners into yourselves, like my definition, it's kind of wild, right? My first reaction was you walk in and you think you're a new employee. I'm learning all this stuff. It's an innovation company. I didn't think about it that way, but it. all manifests itself. When you show up on day five and you look at your calendar and you see people throwing blocks on your calendar. 30 minutes here, 30 minutes there, 30 there's no agenda. You don't know what you're walking into. You don't know if you're making a decision or you're going to solve a problem in that 30 minutes, because they'll just grab another 30 minutes. But that rate of change is so viscerally different than anything I think I've ever experienced, but it is what has made the company and innovation company.

[00:07:32] There's hundreds of thousands of ideas floating around that make the technology that we all know. Something that no one else has done before. And so when you think about, you know, inside of this company, fast moving highly innovative thousands and thousands and thousands of ideas and opportunities to serve this market differently compared to a traditional industry that had more of a regular, this is what we do. These are the expectations. There's like this cataclysm of whoa. This is different. You're asking me to accomplish something, but you're also telling me you don't know what that something is. Two weeks later, there is clarity to that, but you're already changing the game and thinking about doing it differently and better. And so that, to me, in terms of like, what does it feel like it's agile, it's innovative. It's so fast because you know, we're really trying to serve. Uh, markets and customers in ways that they've never really been served before. And so part of that, isn't having the answer. It's actually recognizing that your job is to find the answer and to work with people.

[00:08:54] Cross discipline, cross functions together quickly to show up and answer, answer questions. 

[00:09:01] Pia: Well, that's completely blown the myth and that you're lying around on. Playing table tennis and he's eating pizza. So I'll throw that one out the window then you haven't got time for that. 

[00:09:13] Todd: There's a, there's a little, you know, I sh I should say there is a lot of that too, I don't want to, I don't want to do anyone a disservice. There is a, the other cultural aspect of when it is that onerous, and there is so much going on. How do you take care of that? Others? How do you create the relationships and the connective tissue? It's not just the individuals around you, but to the company and the ethos. And that's where all of that does come in because when you are sharing a lunch, when you're. sharing uh soccer game when you're going to work out together, when you're doing, like, there is a whole different bond that comes from that, that actually it propels the ability to move that quickly, because let's think about it, right? When you walk into an organization with lots of employees, many times a day, I get on calls with people I've never met before. 

[00:10:01] But you, you lean on those other cultural elements to kind of draw some similarities and some relationship front, because otherwise you can't, you can't move that quickly.

[00:10:10] Dan: It sounds incredibly exciting, but I imagine also quite challenging for the individuals then people have to raise to, uh, raise themselves to a new level, I guess, in this space where clarity is, not probably what they've expected before. What is the impact on individuals? Can you talk a bit more about that and how do people sort of, thrive, but also cope in that, that environment. if you like. 

[00:10:31] Todd: It's really a spectrum. And I think you can't define it as one kind of singular answer to be fair to everyone because we're all people, we're all human. W we have different human emotions as we kind of deal with that. And some people need an amount of clarity to know how do I be successful in my role, and just because of who they are as an individual, they need different they would define clarity differently. I guess. I would say. 

[00:10:59] You have other individuals who, who really, answered the call to that innovation. I thrive in ambiguity. We use that term here a lot. I thrive in that kind of environment because I'm a creator. I'm a thinker. If you kind of give me guardrails, I'm going to be successful. And so in a very fast moving organization, serving really every country around the world for all intents and purposes that have fundamentally different requirements and different geopolitical situations and different needs that, that further compounds the challenge of what is clarity, how does working in an organization like this affect any one given individual, And there's a special. There. And so I think, when I look at myself and kind of the teams I have in, in different countries around the world, there are huge differences in what is needed in a fast changing, compliance and security world of, you know, the European market compared to a us market That has connected tissue to cloud hyperscalers and known security classifications.

[00:12:06] And these are kind of the dynamics. This crazy Rubik's cube of, do I know, my people do. I knew the markets that they're operating in. Do I know that the team and where the maturity curve of that team even is because a lot of this is new building, new teams, building new cross-functional mechanisms. And so it really comes down to the individual and their immediate outside influences on that to, really know that. I can map these things together and know what is clarity for that given situation.

[00:12:38] Dan: If we think about a team leader, cause it, you're in that sort of a situation and you might have different ways of adapting and you have different strengths, I guess you bring to bear as a leader of a team. How do you bring the right level of clarity and the right kind of clarity to really drive this innovation culture? What does that look like? 

[00:13:00] Todd: It's daunting for one, you know, it, it, it is challenging. I mean, there's no like, oh, I've got it figured out because it changes over time. I will say like, you know, because we're iterating, so if you think about a general organization and all sorts of different functional roles that make up that organization, sales, operations, domain experts, and sellers, and all these different roles, each of those roles is on their own maturity curve. And so when I look across teams, I really have to understand where are they at on the maturity curve of, of their team? Where is that market? In terms of, is there an amount of clarity where we know we can provide direction and go be successful? Or is there ambiguity in that market where we know we're still innovating, we're still creating what is important for that market, and then where are the strengths of the individual? And so, I have the conversations with my team, all that, all the time about the individuals. This is not a. Peanut butter spreading moment where we're going to write down these five bullets and we're going to send the email out and everybody's got what they need. It doesn't work that way. It comes down to the individual and kind of some of those outside influences, because in, in my experience, there is this balance between clarity sometimes can be, you will not have answers to what you're saying. And that clarity is about the task at hand. Sometimes it's more of standardized clarity here is exactly what we're going to train you on, who your targets are, who you need to work with, what to say. And so there's always this kind of balance of standardized clarity, more of that assembly line mentality, which many people in these markets come from. Those companies, there was something that company. They trained everyone on it, they went and did it. And then there's that other more autonomous amount of clarity, right. And I think of like the autonomy in terms of, if I can help people understand what it's gonna feel like for the weeks or months ahead, then I'm preparing them to not get something out of balance where they don't know what to do.

[00:15:13] And so there are many teams that are on those journeys where I I've spent a lot more time explaining the points of friction. What is unknown, what works still trying to figure out, because that allows them kind of that box of, okay. I'm at least clear that I can't expect answers to some of these questions and that, that, that actually, you know, you can see a little bit of relief wash over 'cause sometimes we don't communicate what it's gonna feel like, and it's gonna feel frustrating. Sometimes it's gonna feel like there aren't answers. It's like you're walking into the unknown, but that's okay. In the pandemic actually taught us a little bit of this. When things happened and governments and organizations and countries shut down, there was so much unknown and our jobs were to support these customers and knowing what we were trying to do, that was a large part learning on my, on my part. And in particular, it's like you can't offer answers to questions that you just don't have answers for yet. And it was amazing to see the results when the challenge and the job kind of almost shifts. The job wasn't knowing what to do. The job was going and finding out what to do, slight distinction, but huge impact in terms of, okay. I can wrap my head around that and I know what to expect and how it's going to feel to me as an individual so that, where I think this all kind of goes is you want to protect that that mental wellness in organizations like this, where you have people on that. spectrum of, I need clear directions or I'm fine being a creator and going and finding it out, you're opening up a risk of mental wellness, and overall wellbeing challenge. Given everyone else's more personal experience. That are also affecting them. And so that's that I think is why this is so, so critically important to really understand who the individuals at, which way they orient so that you can kind of give them enough to feel good about what's being produced. And if what's being produced is finding out even the question that needs to be asked, they should feel good about that. And that's enough clarity, at least for the time being. Cause I promise you. Four weeks from now. We're going to be on that. And maybe we have the answers. 

[00:17:35] Pia: Probably even 30 minutes, Todd, 

[00:17:36] Todd: There you go. 30 minutes.

[00:17:38] Pia: It's interesting because it I'm wondering if there's sometimes a bit of a dynamic tension between two skillsets, you paint this picture of this incredible innovation organization and incredibly smart people in it. Who've got high levels of expertise. And then you've got this leadership challenge, which is to lead teams, which is a very different thing. And you're sometimes triggered into that expertise role as a leader by telling people the answers. Whereas it's in fact, Different set of skills. Do you see that? Do you see that. as a challenge at speed? So sometimes we can give ourselves the excuse that we're not giving clarity, because we're also incredibly innovative and smart and we don't need it. And it becomes an excuse. I know there's a bit of a challenge in there, but do you see that. 

[00:18:34] Todd: I think the speed part of it, and to be honest, the innovation part of it really challenges that because to your point, I always ask myself, am I, am I actually answering the call here? Am I giving what's needed? Why can't I be really, really clear down to the nth degree? And, I must say when I then look at not just our teams, but the customers, the markets that we serve. The amount of change that has happened in these markets with respect to cyber security, security, compliance, regimes. Those things are changing on our, on our employees too. So they're like, you know, by, by default, we can't answer that because we're still trying to figure that out. That impacts my ability to say, Hey, here's what we need to go do.

[00:19:28] And so then it's more about rallying people around really two things. It's like, can we go help be innovative, but can I offer them things that are really clear? Because there are always things that we can say and do that provide an amount of clarity, but it really comes down to the task at hand. But the speed part of it is very real in a company like this innovation. That moves very quickly, but what we develop in terms of technology moves very quickly to who we're partnering with, how we're doing it, what technology we have to offer that moves very, very quickly too. And so it's, it's, you know, I oftentimes find myself talking about what we're working on.

[00:20:12] What's coming closer and what's important now. And again, it comes down to like, what can I expect as, as, as an employee. And the better we can do it, like kind of talking through like the OODA loops or the iteration cycles, if you will, of, you know, there's, there's a whole bunch of unknown. There's some, that's a little bit more unknown than there is stuff that is known.

[00:20:35] And if we can do that better, then we're at least getting people again, kind of back on that spectrum. Some people will play with that unknown and go do amazing things. And frankly, that's where a lot of our innovation comes. It's those types of people aligned to the way unknown, but there are other people that really, really gravitate towards that I need to have the note.

[00:20:54] And so I think my challenges, we have hundreds of leaders here too. So it's not just the individuals. It's the, how do you work with other leaders and give the visibility? And the awareness is something that's moving so quickly. I could sit here and write email updates all day long. And so that becomes a challenge too, because you're talking about huge organizations and lots of leaders that affect a lots of their teams and sharing that information. So everyone is on the same page around the globe is, is, uh, that is that's where the speed kind of innovation and scale aspects, all kind of come together in terms of like, there's a lot of information. To communicate consistently just so that people can actually provide the right amount of clarity to any one individual.

[00:21:43] Pia: And it must take time first, someone who comes in new who's called a Noogler. I would love that one. How long do you think it takes before a Noogler gets to become a Googler and actually gets to understand this context and how to grapple with, with clarity at this point?

[00:22:01] Todd: It takes, you know, nine to 12 months. 

[00:22:04] Pia: Right. Not 30 minutes. 

[00:22:06] Todd: Not 30 minutes. And it is interesting. It's like these new Glarus locking the door, same experience. Then see their calendars. All of a sudden they're like, I've never felt anything like this before. And so they, you know, you go through it and it it's, it's almost by design too. We do what we can in terms of onboarding and the initial trainings. And we're the buddy system and try to do the right introductions, but it is amazing that the company thrives on just the interpersonal connections. And so you start to meet people immediately, which interestingly enough adds a, a bit of a challenge when it comes to. Can I say no to these meetings, is this worth my time? Is this going to help me do my job? 

[00:22:49] That gets really hard when, when people are on your calendar, all of a sudden asking for your 30 minutes, when you're going through your own journey of what is important, what am I supposed to be doing here? And so that's something we work on a lot as well. It's like communication. If we can't solve that unknown, somewhat known and known and provide clarity of the individual, how can they manage their time? How can they get to this, this idea of time on target? I know what's worth spending my time on today because I have the clarity and sense of purpose to know that it is versus I really can't make that decision. So I'm going to take the meeting and which then you get into a little bit of problem because I've got, I'm so overwhelmed and overburdened with my calendar and all these things, it gets hard to shed. And so we have a lot of conversations with people coming in the door the number one kind of message. I always offer. And this was offered to me long ago is this is one of those places where it's most important. You decided what you're not going to. And that's an important thing because it gives people a little bit of a check to ask themselves. And we still, even with googlers who have been here for awhile, we have the conversation.

[00:24:03] Are you prioritizing your time effectively? Are you saying no to people talking about being rude, not taking The meeting and not helping others, but you've got to make really, really good choices. Otherwise you become unclear. And we have to pull you back to that center before. 

[00:24:19] Dan: It sounds like everyone is making. Many many decisions all the time, that 30 minute cadence you're talking about, it's probably even split down and and also in an innovative environment, these there's a L I imagine there's a lot of times when you're going to get that wrong. How, what impact does that have? just the sheer amount. The certainty is going to lead people to be spending some time thinking that didn't go well. Or I invested quite a bit of time in that? And actually we moved off that project or whatever. How do you cope with that? Uh, that in the organization. 

[00:24:50] Todd: Bias to action. you have to make decisions. And this is a culture. Innovation is built upon getting things. If we don't get things wrong quicker, we'll never get it. Right. And so this is one of those environments that actually thrives on that agile, innovative move quickly make decisions, because it's okay. It's okay to get it wrong. We're going to iterate quick enough. And if we get it wrong in the next 30 minutes, we'll solve it. 30 minutes after. We'll get it right. And I say that, you know, kind of tongue in cheek, but there, there is some truth to that. And I think we've probably all worked at places where it's like, don't get it wrong. Your entire brand, your brand is on the table. And that's what drives this. Like long-term kind of waterfall mentality well, like I'm, I'm so risk averse now that I can't make a decision that I'm holding out on providing clarity cause I'm worried about, you know, providing the wrong direction. 

[00:25:46] It's strange the clarity piece because sometimes you provide clarity and you can get it wrong. And then you've got to go back to the same team and say, Hey, not planning plan B. And so that, that is, that's a mind, that's a mindset thing. So it does challenge clarity and direction, and like that, that individual's sense of, I know what I need to do. Um, but that comes with the turf of working in a fast moving innovative. It challenges, I'd say the best leaders in terms of decisiveness now because we're making decisions quick. And so those that are on the fence and maybe come from cultures where it was not okay to be wrong, it takes a little bit of getting used to you. Step out on the ledge. there's a lot of supportive conversations. We talk about our principles and values in terms of bias staff. to give top cover and support to leaders at all levels to say, make decisions, support your teams. tell people when you get it wrong, just go back and correct it. 

[00:26:45] Pia: It's like one of those Spotify questions, your learn by mistakes, and we're okay to talk about that And it's interesting. Cause there is a high level of perfection, but I wanted to get back to something. You talked about wellness and and I'm thinking about this 30 minutes. Ever-changing innovative, high paced culture. We're still human beings. We haven't necessarily changed our hard wiring to deal with that and we can be attracted to that. And, um, there's going to be a certain type of person that's going to be really attracted to that type of organization for a while. Exactly.

[00:27:16] And we've got post pandemic we've got these increasing and worrying levels of burnout, workplace loneliness, mental health issues. So how does that work? Because you could start to if you have a series of things that don't work out, you could start to doubt yourself. And that's horrible when that seed of doubt come comes into your brain. How are you thinking about wellness and how to ensure that people stay balanced and able to keep perspective? In a, in an environment that will always be demanding more. of them. 

[00:27:55] Todd: It's a great question. And I think that's, that is why, you know, getting to a place of clarity regardless of how you define it is so important. It is fundamentally not necessarily a the outcome, the business result, it's about the enjoyment of that person working here. We talk a lot about this being the place you want to work. I have fun doing what I do. I know what I need to do, and I'm being successful at what I'm doing, but I will say in my experience, even at my time here, there is no more sense of ownership at knowing it's a very flat. Very flat. You'll end up on calls. You're three layers of management above you are not on the call. It's just you and someone else. It happens all the time. And so there's a good part of that. And then there's a bad part of that. So I say, as, as, as leaders here at every level of the organization, it's super important to understand what you should involve others in that is being iterated on and what you should be. There's an orientation towards get everybody on the call. It's just hash it out. But that comes at the, at, at, at some mental strain. Some people don't do well with that. Some people would get worried at what we don't know about. And so you've really got to make thoughtful decisions about who do you involve at what iteration of something being worked on versus who are you waiting to involve before it has the right amount of.

[00:29:27] For that team or for that individual. And that's that again comes back to do you know, your people, do you know who is on your team and where they're at on the spectrum of thriving, an ambiguity versus just wanting the clarity? There's no wrong door to go in in terms of that spectrum, there is no like, cause you will be successful regardless, but if you're managing. Manager or entire chain approach you the wrong way, that has an impact on what you are doing as, as an, as an individual, compounding that with the pandemic and what we have going on in our social lives, some may be affected by a number of different things.

[00:30:12] We've seen people take on more work in their personal lives than ever before and if you kind of think about I'm unclear and overwhelmed with what I need to do in my professional world, compounded with, I have this, this other weight on my shoulders from this this new world we live in, that's a huge risk. And so like, the pandemic has given us an excuse to talk about this, but this is, this has existed in this environment for decades. It's more and more and more virtually. I mean, let's admit it, being on video calls every 30 minutes for 10 hours a day is exhausting and it's not actually worth. Work is work gets done when you're working, not when you're just talking to folks. And so again, it comes back to, are you prioritizing your time, the right way? Can you prioritize your time the right way? Because you've been provided the clarity. I'm trying to find the question to be asked, or I know how to answer the problem could be anywhere on that spectrum given team and. But those are really, really important pieces to provide, you know, the right amount of direction for engagement of those teams, because that allows them to shed the time away from stuff that isn't adding value. It's not keeping them on target to what matters most for them, their role, the company, the business, whatever it may be. Um, and I would argue that that has more of it exponential impact on their overall wellness, because they can feel good about their contribution.

[00:31:57] I'll tell you just a quick story through the pandemic, we were doing a lot of work with, with governments around the world, from tracing and testing and all these sorts of things. And I had a number of, of team members come back and they were frustrated and they were down. I mean, we were working hard. This was, you know, it early pandemic. It was high stress, high pressure. And they were so frustrated because they didn't have this piece in that, that piece. And you could see them exhaustion, uh, childcare duties. I, I'm not getting support from these other teams that had other priorities going on. And just, just being able to say to them, you have done 10 times more than what was ever expected of you., the relief washed over their faces. And I use that story just because that was a learning experience for myself. I never does. Does, does decided or communicated what the end result should be, but they, on their own had expectations of themselves that far exceeded the problem statement, the need.

[00:33:06] And so sometimes if we're not kind of managing that, these are such passionate people, they're innovators, they're, they, they do amazing things. But we need to ratchet down. What's good enough. So they feel good about it. And I don't say that to hold anyone back or not do things, but, but at the risk of, you know, this kind of idea of wellness, if, if you can't point to feeling good about what you're doing and clearly understanding from those you work around that that is amazing. Then, of course we're setting people up for, it's never going to be good enough. I always have to work more. I always have to take more meetings. I'm now balancing this personal professional world and like that, that leads a race to the bottom.

[00:33:52] Pia: I, think that's the challenge. Isn't it? When you're inside this Uber innovation system. It makes humans want to be superhumans And we can't be superhumans. So we have to find a way to be able to use our humanness, to maximize what we all bring. I mean, that's the essence of teamwork. Isn't it as well. Is that, although we're working as individuals, that's what brings out the magic 

[00:34:16] together. 

[00:34:17] Todd: That's exactly right. And, and, you know, innovation is about celebrating every milestone and recognizing that every step along the journey is good. And sometimes we forget that we're waiting for it to be done, but in an, in an innovation company, a fast moving one at that, it's actually never. And so that's a mindset. Can we separate ourselves from the long-term objective? What we know is possible and really take joy in every step, along the way and recognizing everyone's efforts. And like, it's just that, that kind of come back to this, what's it going to feel like it's going to feel like you're not moving fast enough. It's going to feel like you're not getting everything done continuously. Look in the rear view mirror and recognize all the work that you have. It's so easy to forget where we've come from. And I think that, that, you know, in some weird way, Pia, you asked the question earlier, like, do we give ourselves excuses, not, not providing clarity? It's like, in some way, when I look at those situations, I say, no clarity is just taking the next one step. And sometimes that's good enough because that balances out those personal professional world. And it gives them the opportunity to feel like their contributions are as big as they actually.

[00:35:29] Pia: I saw a great graphic once saying that the greater pressure that you're under you reduce sort of metrically instead of seeing things as a kilometer. Or a meter, you bring it down to a centimeter and then a millimeter and it's a millimeter at a time. So, because that helps your brain to go, I am making progress, but but don't see it. Don't try and futurize cause that's going to make it much more stressful trying to do that. 

[00:35:57] Todd: It's heartwarming to see and have the opportunity to work with people that care that much, that like on one hand they forget all that they have done the things they have done. That have touched human lives around the world. So it's amazing to see them always looking for more, but as a leader in the organization, it's also the biggest risk that kind of mentality will only lead to burnout. It will only lead to other complications if you're not giving people that opportunity to really, really feel good. every step along the way. And so it's a constant, it's a constant balance. And the faster it moves, the harder that balance gets.

[00:36:40] Yeah, it's co I sense that that I've seen it in fast moving organizations where you don't pause to to recognize what you've done. You move on to the next thing. And that is itself a, as you say, a point of stress, Todd, we have extracted so much richness from. you today about this, And we've heard so much about this environment. It seems slightly unfair to ask you to boil it down to a couple of takeaways, what would you say, for someone who either wants to create, uh, an innovative culture like this fast moving one, but, um, any team leader or any team that wants to build clarity at speed? What, what would be your takeaway?

[00:37:19] Todd: One of the big ones for me is, is really just understanding. You know, th the individuals, right. And if you're looking to build a, you know, an innovative, fast moving culture, you have to operate that way. And sometimes that means you don't have the answer and you set an awe inspiring outcome or no outcome at all. When you think about it, like. We ha we didn't set an outcome of what we wanted to do relative to supporting governments during the pandemic. We didn't know that was the innovative challenge to the entire organization. And through that, why come back to know the individuals and kind of, are they creators or are they more than the doer? The understanding those folks. I think you get different things because you can have creators go create innovate, iterate, and solve problems that you didn't even know existed. Those people need support from doers. 

[00:38:23] There's an amount of clarity and organizational power that you can get from harnessing those two types of individual. Amongst the same team, because those creators are only going to create, frankly, they don't want to do some things, but they're going to need support. And that's where that connective tissue comes from. It also helps you kind of manage, uh, leadership styles, clarity styles, and start to match up your approach to different types of profiles of individuals to harness the both. But if we kind of treat them all as one or the. That's the miss.

[00:39:00] Dan: I think that's reinforced a theme I've heard throughout is about this. sort of in a way, splitting everything down. You talked about those 30 minute meetings and you're individualizing the way you deal with leaders as well. So it's a sort of a really making it's the fragmentation in a way of the granularity. Really interesting approach and they're good, good visualizations of strong point on which to end. So Todd, thank you so much for sharing a little bit of little bit of this amazing life in Google. That's changing the lives for all of us across the planet. thank you so much for joining us on we, not me today. 

[00:39:33] 

[00:39:37] Pia: That was quite amazing watching. Todd's almost lose himself, you know, in the, in the passion and the way that he articulated the culture, uh, uh, Google. It was, it was extraordinary. Actually, our. Uh, quite moved, both listening to him and having the privilege to see him as well. So, you know that he, he, he gave us an extraordinary insight into the innovation culture inside one of the most iconic organizations in the world.

[00:40:16] Dan: Quite moving and moving actually, he in the way that he, yeah, he's he say? I think it was a good way of putting it. He sort of lost himself and, um, really spoke from the heart. And I really just picking up that point about the innovation culture. It was interesting to me that he differentiated that from tech and that the culture is quite different and that, that has a real impact on the way teams are operating.

[00:40:38] Pia: It's a difference between the two. And you could tell the pride and the passion around that innovation culture, but then also I guess, the accountability to deliver against that. So really got interested juice to that 30 minute increments, you know, that's your time. And you've really got to put your mind to it and you've got to prioritize. and so from a clarity perspective, uh, you've got to be able to really you're on a moving target, but you've got to, you've got to size up the opportunity quickly so that you can make the right decisions around it. Not that there's not a lot of times. or deliberating is that?

[00:41:19] Dan: No. And he, he crystallized something for me that I I've worked with teams on, but he'd said it so, so well that sometimes characters about saying we don't know. And so your, your role is to go and find out or to even ask the right question or find the question. So in, I think a lot of. A lot of teams I've seen actually getting stuck in these fast moving environments. They, we can't set a goal because we don't know what's going to happen or we don't know. Okay. The all clarity is that you don't know. So that, that was really powerful and actually really useful for unsticking teams. I think

[00:41:50] Pia: Yeah. And I think sometimes we can rely heavily an over-reliance on the leader to provide that level of clarity without. Being proactive in ways to, to try and determine what that clarity may be yourself. So it, it did redefines actually for me, hearing Todd the relationship to both time and to clarity. We're stuck sometimes aren't we, and what we think are 60 minute meetings. And I don't know where that came from, but that, that seems to, that seems to be the norm, whereas it doesn't have to be so challenge that challenge, that status quo and. And challenge the status quo relationship about clarity. What clarity do I need now? What enables me?

[00:42:37] Dan: Before the pandemic, I was on a one man mission to get rid of 60 minute meetings because people were talking about back to backs and they were rolling into the next meeting, unprepared and exhausted. So I was trying to always have 45 minute meetings, but yeah, pretty much failed. But I think during the pandemic, actually the 30 minute meeting is sort of landed as a, as a, as a thing, but Google's clearly made it into an art form.

[00:43:02] Pia: Yeah, I agree. And, um, not one of your great successes of

[00:43:06] Dan: Yeah, exactly. I think I'll chalk that up to a, when I had to implement a pandemic to make it happen. But I think your point is well made as well about this relationship to time. And the priority is for the person and for the T sort of it's quite individual things. So the way that. Todd talked about how granularly need to be. It's different at different times for different people at different tasks. And it takes the leader time to create that clarity. It's not a, I send them an email or it's not a broadcast. It really is a real focus.

[00:43:34] Pia: So I think loads to digest that. And, as I say, I think that was quite a privileged to get that insight and, and to feel that level of, of passion and authenticity. So, who. How do do we have next week then?

[00:43:50] Dan: Well next week, I'm really looking forward to, because we have an old, well, I wouldn't say an old friend, an old colleague and a friend, um, Lucy Helvin yet who I'm trying to avoid saying that. well she's younger than both of us, but she is a super seasoned team leader. She has been dropped into environments everywhere around the world. trying to get stuff done in really. Tricky environments. I would say challenging environments that she hasn't seen before. So I think we can learn a lot from Lucy reluctant.

[00:44:21] So that's it for this episode. you can find show notes and resources@spotify.net. Just click on that. We not meet podcast link. If you have enjoyed the show and we very much hope you have, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. Uh, we, not me. It's produced by Mark Steadman of origin, thank you so much for listening to the show. It's goodbye from me.

[00:44:41] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.