Matt Abrahams: How you sound and what you say is critical to communication success.
Let's put an accent on accents.
My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to speaking once again with my friend Valerie Fridland.
Valerie is a professor of sociolinguistics at the University of Nevada in Reno.
She's an expert on the relationship between language and society.
Valerie is the author of Like, Literally, Dude, arguing for the good in bad
English, and recently she released her new book called Why We Talk Funny:
The Real Story Behind Our Accents.
Well, welcome back Valerie.
I am thrilled to be joined with you again and to continue the conversations
you and I have had many times over the last time since you visited.
Thanks for being here.
Valerie Fridland: Oh, absolutely.
It's always a pleasure to talk with you, Matt.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Shall we get started?
Valerie Fridland: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: You have taught me so many things about how language works,
but none has fundamentally changed my view than what you've talked
about in terms of filled pauses.
It changed the way I think about it, I teach it, what I try to do in my own work.
For those of you who haven't heard Valerie's complete description of this
checkout episode 91, would you mind just giving us a quick summary of what filled
pauses are and what they actually do for us as communicators and as listeners?
Valerie Fridland: Sure, absolutely.
Well filled pauses are things we all use on occasion.
We all recognize because they're the uhs and ums that populate our
pauses, and every language has them.
So it's something we find the world over.
They're not all exactly the same form, but roughly.
But what we find is that um and uh tend to occur when we're
doing more complex things.
So whenever we are having more complex sentence structures, so we're putting
a lot of embeddings, a lot of different sort of extra parts in our sentences and
and's, or or's, and relative clauses, we find that uh and um tend to occur
before those points of more complexity.
We also find when we're coming up with hard words, big words, unfamiliar words,
we tend to uh or um more in front of them.
But I think the most fascinating thing is not just why we do them as speakers,
because we're signaling harder work cognitively, but it's actually what they
do for a listener that's incredible.
And not only do they signal to a listener like, hey, I'm doing
something really complex here.
It's gonna take me a minute.
So they're kind of just giving you a heads up that we're taking a moment.
The reason we wanna do that is because if I pause silently,
you might think I'm done.
But if I uh or um it's signaling to you I'm not done.
I'm just pausing for a sec. But the really, really fascinating part
is that they actually really help with memory on the listener side.
So when we run experiments and we have people say uh before a content word,
before some sort of word that we're interested in people remembering, and
then we run the same experiment where we don't have people uh before that word,
we find that the recall for the word with uh in front of it is better than
in the cases where they didn't have uh.
Which tells us that they're actually doing some pretty important work.
So if you want people to remember what you say, a little uh won't hurt you.
But I wouldn't overpopulate because we also don't like them.
So just be aware of that facet as well.
Matt Abrahams: It's fascinating to me that these filler words exist
across different languages and that they actually serve a purpose.
They signal that we're working hard.
They highlight that what we're about to say is something
you should pay attention to.
And it turns out people actually do pay more attention and they actually
remember that information more.
So the old adage, get rid of all the filled pauses, is not actually accurate.
It's okay to have them and they in fact help us.
It's when you have a lot of them that it gets distracting.
And I would argue that my theory is the reason when somebody uses so
many of these filled pauses annoys us is we're actually trained to
expect something of value to follow.
If all that follows an um is another um that actually is frustrating.
Valerie Fridland: Partially, I think that's true.
I also think it's that the natural tendency is that we're going to um
and uh more often in high stakes context because it's things we're
not as used to saying, and it's not anxiety or stress, there's actually
not that much evidence that really increases our rate of um-ing and uh-ing.
When we go in front of the executive leadership and we're talking about
something very important that we've done, we're probably going to be
using higher level vocabulary, things we're not quite as familiar with.
So I think when we're hearing presentations or speeches and people
do a lot of um-ing and uh-ing, that is something that annoys us
because we have an expectation that they're very well prepared and they
know what they're going to say.
So things that signal they don't disturb us.
Matt Abrahams: I think you're exactly right.
I'd like to turn our attention now to your second book, which is all about accents.
You write that we all have accents.
Why do we so easily notice accents in others but not ourselves?
Valerie Fridland: I think the greatest myth that we operate under every
day is that we don't have an accent.
You know, we don't notice our accents because everybody around
us generally talks like we do.
So if you are moving to a new place, that's really when you're first realizing,
oh my gosh, I'm the one that sounds funny.
Because when you are the one that is the dominant speaker in an
area, most people are sounding like you, so you don't hear it.
You're used to it.
Particularly when we're children, we grow up in an area, we kind of
adjust or normalize to whatever we hear most often around us.
Which can also be, not just the accents that's sort of prevalent in your area,
but say you're born to a non-native speaker and you grew up as a native
speaker in the US for example, you won't hear your parents' accents because
you have normalized them as children.
So we don't hear the accents around us because we're so familiar with them.
We also are very heightened to notice difference.
So when people come into our communities and they're not dressing like we are,
they're not looking like we are, and really strongly not sounding like we
are, we notice that and that's where the sort of the salience of accent comes in.
Matt Abrahams: I do wanna talk about culture because accents
and cultures go together.
When communicating across cultures we often focus on learning the right
vocabulary, the grammar, but you highlight the rhythm and intonation, like English
as a stress timed language versus Spanish or Mandarin being a syllable
timed, and I'd like for you to explain those, are huge hurdles for people.
How do these, what are called prosodic differences, affect how well speakers are
understood and evaluated by somebody in the native language they're now speaking?
Valerie Fridland: Absolutely.
When we're learning a language, we work a lot on sounds, but we really tend to
ignore some really important areas that make a big impact on how comprehensible
you are and how intelligible you are as a speaker, which is an area that linguists
called prosodic features or prosody.
And those include things like word stress and sentence stress.
So what's highlighted by a speaker in a language.
Tone, which can be like with Mandarin, tone on a single word can actually
change the meaning of that word, something English doesn't have, which
is obviously something really hard for English speakers when they're learning
Mandarin, or intonation patterns, which as an English speaker, I often
go down in my tone at the end of a sentence to signal I'm done talking.
Conversely, when I have a question, I often ask that question with a
rising intonation because that's signaling that I'm asking a question.
So that's a sentence level pattern.
So those are different types of prosodic features, and they're very difficult
to learn when you come in from a language with one system prosodically
and you're learning a language with a different system prosodically.
So for example, as I mentioned a minute ago, an English speaker
trying to learn a tonal language.
Our intonation patterns where we go up at the end or down at the
end, make it really hard when we're trying to get tones on a word.
The opposite is when we have different sort of structures to our language
inherently, and that's where we get to the stress versus syllable timing,
where our fundamental way that we stress syllables in our language
is different than another one.
So let's break that down.
Stress timing is a language like English, Russian, Arabic, German, and this is
where particular words or syllables that you're speaking get more stress than
others, depending on what the speaker wants to highlight in that language.
So certain syllables are louder and longer, and then the other syllables in
between actually get smushed together they had to be said more rapidly to
fit into a sort of certain timing unit between those stress syllables.
So in that language you have a rhythm that's sort of like dum dum dum.
So you have the short syllables that are really jam packed and that's why
you get things like vowel reduction.
So when I say the instead of the in English or a instead of a, it's because
I'm actually having to squish them between stress syllables interval.
In a syllable timed language, which is something like Spanish or Chinese or
French or Portuguese, every syllable has equal stress, so it's more like, bum
bum, bum, bum bum, bum bum of a rhythm.
Now this seems very complex and how would I ever figure out how to switch over?
Well that's exactly the problem.
We don't get practice in that.
And this completely impacts how well you're understood.
It may not seem like that big a deal 'cause it just is rhythmic, but it's
a huge deal because think of a word as someone who might have a syllable
time language, like it'd elephant.
If you didn't know we were talking about giant things with big ears and
trunks, you might have no idea what I said because it's elephant for a
native English speaker, because I'm stressing that first syllable and
then jamming the others really quick.
But if I have a syllable time language, I'm going to stress each
syllable equally and I'll have no a vowel because that's only happens
when I remove stress from a syllable.
So what happens, you can actually get words that are completely unintelligible
because you're saying the stress wrong because you used a syllable time
pattern on a stress time language.
So these are things that are really rarely discussed in language classes.
There are often problems that people encounter and they don't know why
they're having problems being understood.
And in fact, research suggests that non-native stress patterns like
this can infect intelligibility as much as not being able to
pronounce the sounds correctly.
Now there's no easy magic fix, but the solution is really practice.
And a lot of that is generally shadowing native speakers.
It doesn't have to be interactive, but you could even record a TV show
and repeat exactly in the intonation pattern of that television show, and
eventually you'll start getting that rhythm down so there's no easy solution.
Matt Abrahams: So what I'm hearing you say, which is super important, for
people who are trying to learn a second language, yes, vocabulary and grammar
are important, but what's as important and perhaps even more in some cases for
intelligibility, it is understanding the rhythm, the stress patterns.
And as with everything communication related, it's one thing to
understand it intellectually.
It's another thing to do it, and that's really a way to help yourself.
I appreciate you identifying that.
I wanna switch the sides of the equation.
We often think of the burden of successful communication as being
on the speaker, the non-native speaker producing the information.
What role does the listener play in this communicative dynamic?
And how can we train our ears and minds to be better able to adapt to
understanding unfamiliar accents?
Valerie Fridland: We often really put a lot of the burden on a non-native speaker.
Anytime we're having a conversation, we have this expectation that
the speaker, it's their job to make it intelligible to us.
It's their job to make their speech understood.
There are so many different problems with that equation, but
let's unpack it a little bit in terms of why that's not the case.
First of all, communication's a partnership.
Just like a marriage, you can't have a marriage when one side is doing all the
work and you can't have a conversation where one side's doing all the work.
If you've ever had a conversation where it's only one sided, it's not a good
conversation and you probably aren't gonna keep talking to that person.
So if we wanna make communication successful, we have to go into it
with this understanding that it's not just their job as a speaker,
it's my job as a listener to make this productive and successful.
There are a couple things at play.
One is as a listener, I don't realize sometimes that they're
not just speaking with an accent, I'm hearing with an accent.
And we really put this belief system around accent on speakers alone, but we
don't listen without a bias that is shaped by our own language and accent experience.
And this affects us in a number of ways.
One thing is it makes it harder to understand what sounds they might be
saying because we have an expectation about what they're supposed to sound like,
and maybe they're not sounding that way.
But two, we also have a role the brain plays in making people
better or worse understood.
So simply by being accustomed to hearing a certain kind of speech
and having expectations going into a conversation about what
we think someone will sound like.
So say they look like they'll speak with an American accent.
But then it turns out they start speaking with a French accent, that actually
causes cognitive disruption for us.
And I don't mean that in a negative way.
I simply mean there's an effect on the brain of this additional processing
burden that hearing something unexpected or unfamiliar places on us.
So there's a bunch of different aspects in terms of why we're hearing with an accent.
You know, I think the long story short of that is to recognize
that part of the reason we're not understanding has nothing to do with
them and everything to do with us.
And there's often a power dynamic that puts whoever is dominant in
that sort of social or institutional setting in a position where they
feel that it's the other person's job to make sure that they're coming
across clearly and intelligibly, but that's an impossible task when you
are not willing to meet them halfway.
So as listeners and speakers, we need to both accept our roles and our jobs and
our faults in speaking and listening to contribute to getting to a place where
we can better understand each other.
One simple option for that as a listener is if we know to expect
something unexpected that knowledge alone decreases the processing burden.
So simply being more open in our expectations actually mitigates
this effect on our brain.
But also the more accents we hear around us, the diversity in our institutions,
diversity in our friend group, the less unfamiliar accent sound to us, the
better jobs our brains do more generally.
So those are easy things to do.
Be more friends with more people, be more open in your expectations.
So I think there's really a two-sided view we can take on communication, and that's,
it's a partnership, not a one-sided event.
Matt Abrahams: Amen.
Communication takes two, right?
And we often focus on the producing of the information, but the receiving
of it is critically important.
The idea about processing fluency and cognitive load are really important,
and it's not just with accents.
It's when you're talking about technical content, you're doing the same thing.
You're increasing cognitive load and processing.
So some of the same advice holds true.
If you're a listener, have an open mind.
I like this idea of exposing yourself to diverse accents and ideas, that helps
reduce the processing fluency and burden.
I've often thought about speaking accents.
I've never thought about listening accents, and that's a really
insightful way of thinking about this.
Valerie, I knew this was gonna be fantastic.
You know that when we end, I always ask three questions.
One I make up just for you, and two, have been consistent across all the episodes.
Are you up for answering these questions?
Valerie Fridland: Let do it.
I love it.
Yes.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
If you could give just one bit of advice to somebody who's speaking
the language that's not their own and has an accent, what would that be?
Valerie Fridland: The biggest advice I can tell you is that not
to put so much pressure on yourself to sound like a native speaker.
We have this weird ideal of what it means to learn another language, what it means
to be fluent in that language, what it means to be successful in that language,
and it's an unrealistic goal and it causes all sorts of problems for native
speakers and non-native speakers alike.
As I'm entering this new journey of a language, what my goal
should be is being successful at having communicative partnerships.
That's really what we wanna do.
It shouldn't be, I wanna sound like I don't have an accent.
What we need to do is embrace accents because they're beautiful and they tell
us our history, and they also tell us where we come from in our identities, and
we should never wanna get rid of that.
Instead, focus on what helps me be more easily understood and more
confident as a speaker because that is what will make you successful.
You can communicate very well with an accent.
We just need to start believing that more as a speaker with a non-native variety.
Matt Abrahams: So it's really about mindset.
It's realize that you can be a very effective communicator even
though you're speaking a language that's not your own and you might
have an accent for those listening.
The goal is not to sound like a native speaker.
The goal is to be successful in the communication and
that focus shift can help.
The advice I always give people is when you introduce yourself,
don't start with your name.
As you alluded to, we're very good at digesting accents, but when something
important is said right at the beginning our brain is still adjusting to,
oh, that's how that person sounds.
So I often encourage people who have accents to start by saying something
else first before their name.
Maybe I'm really excited to be here, or I'm somebody who's very
passionate about this, and then say your name so that people have started
to adjust and adapt to your accent.
So hopefully those two bits of advice can help people.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Valerie Fridland: I would say that one person I really admire as a communicator
in the same sort of space as me, the science communication, is Adam Grant.
He does a remarkable job of communicating really technical research-based
information in a way that's both relevant and very accessible to
everyday speakers, and so I enjoy that.
Matt Abrahams: Question number three, what are the first three ingredients that go
into a successful communication recipe?
Valerie Fridland: I don't think it's gonna surprise you that I start with
listening because we talked so much about that, and I think we often just worry
when we go into a conversation about speaking, what we really should worry
about is listening, for so many reasons.
One is, that makes us better as a communicator, right?
Because we're genuinely paying attention.
It helps shape how we respond and a lot of times when we spend too much time
worrying, and I think non-native speakers sometimes do this, about what we're
going to say, we actually miss really important nuanced points where we can make
connections because of what they said.
The other is self-awareness, and this is different than
worrying about how I'm sounding.
This is about understanding that my own background brings me to every
conversation with preconceived notions of how things should go
and what people should sound like.
And as we talked about, this influences the way that we process things.
So just being aware of that really can reshape our interactions with people.
And then the third is smile.
Be friendly, be open.
I think sometimes we're so set on presenting ourselves a certain
way or being a certain way in a context, professionally particularly,
where we forget that just being friendly and kind and open can
actually open a lot of doors for us.
It can be the best nurturing sort of piece of the puzzle for a good
conversation, is when someone feels like you really wanna genuinely have a
good conversation with them, that you're happy to be there talking with them.
I think that makes them more interested in conversing with you as well.
Matt Abrahams: That last part is so important.
It's really about connection and regardless of if you have
an accent or not, you connect.
I like your point on listening as well.
Thank you for connecting with us and for sharing your insights on the value
and importance of accents and really reflecting on ways that if we have an
accent that we can address it, as well as those of us who are communicating
with people who have accents.
As always, Valerie, I learned so much from you.
I appreciate your energy, your insights, and your time today.
Thank you.
Valerie Fridland: Always a good conversation with you, Matt.
Thanks.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more from Valerie, please listen to episode 91.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.
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