WEBVTT 00:00:03.390 --> 00:00:06.979 Matt Abrahams: Passion and collaboration can turbocharge your communication. 00:00:07.229 --> 00:00:10.210 My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:10.210 --> 00:00:11.810 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:12.109 --> 00:00:15.260 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:15.699 --> 00:00:19.299 Today, I'm excited to visit with the Tiger Sisters, Cherie and Jean Luo. 00:00:19.509 --> 00:00:24.439 They are the dynamic co-hosts of the Tiger Sisters podcast, a show I encourage 00:00:24.619 --> 00:00:26.599 all of you to put in your playlists. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:31.509 They together demystify the tech and finance industries and go 00:00:31.509 --> 00:00:35.930 beyond with their insights that are both fun and educational. 00:00:35.960 --> 00:00:38.939 They blend the strategic rigor of the boardroom with 00:00:38.939 --> 00:00:40.829 the candor of sisterly love. 00:00:41.450 --> 00:00:42.859 Well, welcome, Jean and Cherie. 00:00:42.879 --> 00:00:43.860 It's great to have you here. 00:00:43.910 --> 00:00:46.649 I'm a big fan of your show and the connections we have. 00:00:46.649 --> 00:00:49.739 It's great to be here in person chatting with you at Spotify in LA. 00:00:50.009 --> 00:00:50.559 Thanks for being here. 00:00:50.910 --> 00:00:52.320 Cherie Luo: We're so excited. 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:52.849 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:53.129 --> 00:00:56.719 You both are incredibly curious and motivated. 00:00:56.790 --> 00:00:58.689 What drives what you do? 00:00:58.969 --> 00:00:59.570 Jean, you want to start? 00:01:00.009 --> 00:01:05.910 Jean Luo: So for Tiger Sisters, our mission is to help one billion people 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:10.559 in the world with what we do, and that's something that we didn't really say 00:01:10.559 --> 00:01:14.309 out loud and start telling people until recently because we were quite sort of 00:01:14.309 --> 00:01:16.629 bashful about how audacious that is. 00:01:16.940 --> 00:01:18.299 But now we just say it full on. 00:01:18.580 --> 00:01:23.760 And the context behind that is that prior to starting Tiger Sisters with 00:01:23.800 --> 00:01:27.290 Cherie about a year and a half ago, I had never been on camera in my life. 00:01:27.729 --> 00:01:30.690 I had never done anything like this, never been in the media industry. 00:01:31.059 --> 00:01:35.820 I actually had had a 15-year-long corporate career before all this, 00:01:35.820 --> 00:01:37.610 so this is all totally new to me. 00:01:38.080 --> 00:01:42.989 And the reason that, you know, I left that all behind is because while I was in my 00:01:42.989 --> 00:01:47.140 corporate career, I was sort of behind the scenes and watching Cherie and seeing 00:01:47.140 --> 00:01:50.379 all that she was doing as a creator, which she had been for about 5 years. 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:54.739 And I was sort of seeing all the DMs and the messages that she was getting from 00:01:54.739 --> 00:01:58.419 people where they would write into her and say, "Hey, I just wanted to let you know, 00:01:58.750 --> 00:02:00.299 you changed my life with your content. 00:02:00.720 --> 00:02:02.400 I never knew what product management was. 00:02:02.479 --> 00:02:05.129 I never knew I could ever work at a tech company. 00:02:05.229 --> 00:02:06.930 But I watched all your content. 00:02:06.970 --> 00:02:08.220 I applied, and I got the job. 00:02:08.220 --> 00:02:11.840 I'm moving across the country." And so after, like, a few years of 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:13.129 that, I was like, "You know what? 00:02:13.659 --> 00:02:18.980 This is something that has both incredible scale and reach and really touches 00:02:18.980 --> 00:02:22.989 and changes the lives of individual people." So from that, I was like, "This 00:02:23.049 --> 00:02:25.499 is worth me dedicating my life to." 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:28.370 Matt Abrahams: I really like that you guys are very purpose-driven. 00:02:28.370 --> 00:02:28.900 Cherie Luo: Oh, yeah. 00:02:28.930 --> 00:02:29.989 Matt Abrahams: And you're right. 00:02:30.030 --> 00:02:33.150 I mean, what we do can have impact on people, and that's fantastic. 00:02:33.480 --> 00:02:34.999 So Cherie, you and I go way back. 00:02:34.999 --> 00:02:36.219 We've, we've had a connection. 00:02:36.489 --> 00:02:39.150 But I'm curious to have you share sort of your motivation. 00:02:39.150 --> 00:02:41.060 Maybe you can share how we actually know each other as well. 00:02:41.210 --> 00:02:41.680 Cherie Luo: Yes. 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.060 So Matt and I know each other from Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:02:45.249 --> 00:02:49.210 I was a student there, and I graduated in 2024, so not too long ago. 00:02:49.720 --> 00:02:53.360 Jean and I, it's amazing that we get to work together every single day for this 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:58.249 mission, but we both feel so much drive and purpose and passion for empowering 00:02:58.249 --> 00:02:59.810 and helping and uplifting people. 00:03:00.299 --> 00:03:04.200 I started creating content in 2020 during the pandemic, and 00:03:04.200 --> 00:03:06.190 mostly on TikTok, short form. 00:03:06.290 --> 00:03:11.259 And the thing that really clicked for me was when I created this video that rated 00:03:11.380 --> 00:03:15.380 my undergraduate computer science classes, one through ten, I rated them, and I'm 00:03:15.380 --> 00:03:19.390 like, "How helpful were my classes to what I am doing now working in the tech 00:03:19.390 --> 00:03:25.960 industry?" And I took that idea and a TikTok trend with a Hannah Montana sound, 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:27.540 so it was like current and relevant. 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:31.289 And I combined those two together, and that video went viral. 00:03:31.289 --> 00:03:35.500 So it had way more likes, comments, views than my silly 00:03:35.500 --> 00:03:36.969 dance videos or my cat videos. 00:03:37.309 --> 00:03:41.399 And people were asking follow-up questions in the comments like, "Oh, wow, this class 00:03:41.399 --> 00:03:44.960 is so interesting," like, "How long did it take you to do your major?" And at the 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:49.019 time there weren't a lot of people sharing their experiences in an educational 00:03:49.019 --> 00:03:50.539 and like also entertaining way. 00:03:50.949 --> 00:03:56.530 And so starting from there, I've had a content creator career, mostly part-time 00:03:56.530 --> 00:03:58.559 until recently full-time after graduating. 00:03:58.559 --> 00:04:02.669 But throughout GSB, I was also posting like, what is it like to be a 00:04:02.669 --> 00:04:04.419 business school student at Stanford? 00:04:04.419 --> 00:04:05.720 What are the classes that I'm taking? 00:04:05.720 --> 00:04:06.570 What am I learning? 00:04:07.030 --> 00:04:08.350 What's the behind the scenes? 00:04:08.350 --> 00:04:13.260 And so now after graduating in 2024, Jean and I have come together and turned 00:04:13.260 --> 00:04:17.250 it into Tiger Sisters, which is both our full-time jobs and passion for the 00:04:17.280 --> 00:04:18.570 impact we want to create in this world. 00:04:18.890 --> 00:04:21.760 Matt Abrahams: Well, I'm hoping that the ratings of the GSB classes were good. 00:04:22.159 --> 00:04:26.030 I really like how part of what you all do is in a very creative way, 00:04:26.059 --> 00:04:31.140 you make more detailed, tough at times, content accessible to people. 00:04:31.490 --> 00:04:36.010 You're very good in the way in which you communicate complex 00:04:36.010 --> 00:04:38.000 ideas and make things relevant. 00:04:38.320 --> 00:04:39.659 How much of that is strategic? 00:04:39.699 --> 00:04:43.169 Do you guys sit down and talk about, how are we going to address this 00:04:43.169 --> 00:04:46.519 issue or communicate this topic, or is it just natural and happens? 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:47.479 Cherie Luo: Oh, no. 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:51.430 I mean, I think the behind the scenes of Tiger Sisters people don't see, 00:04:51.489 --> 00:04:54.900 'cause it does come out very polished, but there's so much research that 00:04:54.900 --> 00:04:56.699 goes behind every single episode. 00:04:57.180 --> 00:05:01.180 And for Jean and me, I think a lot of our ethos is meeting our listeners, our 00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:02.670 viewers, our audience where they are. 00:05:02.969 --> 00:05:07.420 And while some of the content we have is more complex or academic, 00:05:07.969 --> 00:05:12.090 one of our more famous episodes or well-received episodes, we talked about 00:05:12.090 --> 00:05:13.790 private equity and venture capital. 00:05:14.159 --> 00:05:15.799 Very fun and sexy. 00:05:16.019 --> 00:05:20.600 But we called it like Private Equity for Hot People, and that was a bit, 00:05:20.650 --> 00:05:23.230 but it also reached people, we're like, "Okay, there's something interesting 00:05:23.230 --> 00:05:26.859 there. We can talk about it, break it down, and make it more palatable, 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:29.540 exciting, entertaining, and interesting." 00:05:29.859 --> 00:05:33.370 Jean Luo: Yeah, and we're always thinking about what our audience wants, right? 00:05:33.409 --> 00:05:36.930 What the community, we call the Tiger Fam, what they want and why 00:05:36.930 --> 00:05:38.100 they want to listen to this topic. 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:42.019 So for a topic like venture capital or private equity, yes, like some 00:05:42.019 --> 00:05:45.439 people are interested in it just for the academic pursuit, but really 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:49.189 what people want is to be able to participate in any conversation. 00:05:49.690 --> 00:05:52.909 Like if you go to a networking event or you go to a fancy dinner 00:05:52.909 --> 00:05:56.030 and people are talking about this company just raised a seed round or 00:05:56.030 --> 00:05:59.660 like this vertical industrials is really heating up for private equity. 00:05:59.939 --> 00:06:02.309 People want to know what to say to that. 00:06:02.349 --> 00:06:03.229 They want to understand it. 00:06:03.229 --> 00:06:06.379 They want to be able to participate and ask well-informed questions. 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:10.020 So that's why when we made an episode about VC and PE, that 00:06:10.020 --> 00:06:11.580 was the angle that we went at it. 00:06:11.580 --> 00:06:13.770 We're like, how to talk about money in any room. 00:06:14.059 --> 00:06:15.430 Matt Abrahams: Which, which is all of us, right? 00:06:15.430 --> 00:06:18.410 So really knowing that audience, doing that reconnaissance reflection 00:06:18.410 --> 00:06:19.570 and research is important. 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:22.320 How do you get insight from your audiences? 00:06:22.320 --> 00:06:23.430 Are you doing surveys? 00:06:23.430 --> 00:06:24.400 Are you talking to people? 00:06:24.400 --> 00:06:26.009 Are you watching who responds to what? 00:06:26.299 --> 00:06:26.689 Cherie Luo: Yeah. 00:06:26.739 --> 00:06:31.350 We often think about our community, our viewers, listeners, as the 00:06:31.350 --> 00:06:33.410 co-producers of our episodes. 00:06:33.620 --> 00:06:37.329 And Jean and I think about Tiger Sisters building it like building a 00:06:37.329 --> 00:06:40.459 tech startup, which I think is pretty unique in this space, but makes 00:06:40.489 --> 00:06:42.089 ton of sense with our backgrounds. 00:06:42.290 --> 00:06:45.179 Matt Abrahams: The rapid prototyping, the, the frameworks and all of that. 00:06:45.179 --> 00:06:45.499 Yeah. 00:06:45.700 --> 00:06:48.060 Cherie Luo: Because each episode that we put out is like a 00:06:48.060 --> 00:06:49.910 mini product in and of itself. 00:06:50.239 --> 00:06:54.199 Once we put it out, we can get feedback on whether or not people are resonating 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:57.129 with the topic, what do they want to hear next, what are their follow-up 00:06:57.129 --> 00:07:01.040 questions, and a lot of that comes in both quantitative and qualitative feedback. 00:07:01.139 --> 00:07:04.760 The qualitative is digging into every single comment that people leave, 00:07:04.760 --> 00:07:06.529 and we read all of the comments. 00:07:06.849 --> 00:07:09.220 Jean Luo: We say that in every episode too, so people know that. 00:07:09.489 --> 00:07:09.730 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:07:09.730 --> 00:07:10.779 And that encourages more. 00:07:10.919 --> 00:07:11.400 Jean Luo: Exactly. 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:14.529 People are very passionate, and people really make a lot of suggestions 00:07:14.529 --> 00:07:16.139 about what they want us to cover. 00:07:16.440 --> 00:07:19.260 So we've seen comments before where we release an episode and then 00:07:19.260 --> 00:07:23.139 people say, "Oh my God, this is the topic I asked for a month ago. 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.019 I can't believe you guys finally did it." And they'll be like, "Please talk 00:07:26.019 --> 00:07:30.250 about this topic next." So it's really this like virtuous cycle because our 00:07:30.300 --> 00:07:34.449 audience, the Tiger family, see that we're listening, and they really do feel like 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:39.639 a part of the production and the growth and the development of Tiger Sisters. 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:41.959 Matt Abrahams: That sense of community is so important. 00:07:42.290 --> 00:07:44.859 We do very similar here on Think Fast, Talk Smart. 00:07:44.859 --> 00:07:48.239 We definitely like getting the feedback and the ideas, and we build that in. 00:07:48.239 --> 00:07:48.809 It's part of it. 00:07:48.889 --> 00:07:51.800 And that sense of community I think is something that's very special. 00:07:52.409 --> 00:07:57.059 I really like this idea of seeing your work as a tech startup. 00:07:57.579 --> 00:08:00.200 One of my colleagues, I don't know if you ever took a class with Michele 00:08:00.200 --> 00:08:03.689 Gelfand, but she likes to say, "Mind your metaphors." The metaphors we 00:08:03.689 --> 00:08:07.439 use affect how we do our work, and seeing it as a startup m- means you 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.519 bring a certain ethos and approach and a way of interacting not just with 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:12.909 each other, but with your audience. 00:08:12.909 --> 00:08:14.249 So I really like that idea. 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:17.439 And all of us can be thinking about what are those metaphors we 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:18.900 bring to the interactions we have? 00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:20.090 Is this gonna be a battle? 00:08:20.090 --> 00:08:21.140 Is this gonna be a dance? 00:08:21.140 --> 00:08:22.189 Is this gonna be a startup? 00:08:22.189 --> 00:08:23.299 I think that's really interesting. 00:08:23.989 --> 00:08:25.489 I'm curious about the two of you. 00:08:25.489 --> 00:08:30.420 I mean, obviously you're sisters, but you're also colleagues and co-founders. 00:08:30.820 --> 00:08:34.409 I can imagine occasionally there might be some differences of opinion. 00:08:34.719 --> 00:08:38.450 How do you resolve conflicts or different points of view? 00:08:38.829 --> 00:08:41.450 For those listening in, are there some conflict management 00:08:41.450 --> 00:08:42.829 techniques that we can learn from? 00:08:43.430 --> 00:08:45.379 Cherie Luo: Not included in your list is roommates. 00:08:45.459 --> 00:08:46.109 Matt Abrahams: Oh. 00:08:46.585 --> 00:08:47.175 Wow. 00:08:47.175 --> 00:08:51.304 So you guys are a 7 by 24 Tiger Sisters and Tiger roommates. 00:08:51.335 --> 00:08:51.625 Wow. 00:08:51.875 --> 00:08:52.214 Okay. 00:08:52.384 --> 00:08:53.904 This just got really interesting. 00:08:53.904 --> 00:08:56.335 Jean Luo: I mean, people ask, they're like, "How did you grow so quickly?" 00:08:56.335 --> 00:08:58.274 It's because we're always working on it. 00:08:58.505 --> 00:09:03.464 I think we're really lucky in that we did a lot of sort of pre-work, whether we knew 00:09:03.464 --> 00:09:09.054 it or not, in aligning our mission and how we looked at building Tiger Sisters. 00:09:09.374 --> 00:09:11.835 Like the metaphors we use, we looked at it as a startup. 00:09:12.234 --> 00:09:15.814 We said, "We are gonna bootstrap this." We said, "We are going to, 00:09:16.074 --> 00:09:19.355 no matter what, spend 18 months on this and just see where it goes. 00:09:19.844 --> 00:09:23.294 When we start this podcast, we are not gonna take any 00:09:23.294 --> 00:09:24.625 sponsors for the first year. 00:09:24.664 --> 00:09:28.835 All we're gonna do is work on the content and make sure we prove to ourselves that 00:09:28.835 --> 00:09:33.735 we have product market fit." So I think because we did all that pre-work, we were 00:09:33.825 --> 00:09:38.195 really well aligned on, like, so many aspects of how we were gonna build this. 00:09:38.675 --> 00:09:44.454 And I think just personality wise, we both are pretty hard workers when we 00:09:44.454 --> 00:09:46.064 are really excited about something. 00:09:46.564 --> 00:09:51.395 And so I don't think we've had too much conflict. 00:09:52.024 --> 00:09:55.545 Cherie Luo: The thing is, with Jean and me, we both have very low ego when 00:09:55.545 --> 00:09:59.584 it comes to creating Tiger Sisters or when you're working with someone 00:09:59.584 --> 00:10:00.984 or in a partnership with someone. 00:10:01.295 --> 00:10:03.145 I think it's having low ego. 00:10:03.175 --> 00:10:10.175 So we do a lot of testing for thumbnails and titles and content, and sometimes 00:10:10.175 --> 00:10:13.175 Jean will have a crazy idea and I'm like, "I don't know if that's a good idea or 00:10:13.175 --> 00:10:15.194 a bad idea. Let's test it." You know? 00:10:15.454 --> 00:10:17.285 Like, let the numbers speak for itself. 00:10:17.285 --> 00:10:20.564 Let's test this title, and if it works, that's great for the 00:10:20.564 --> 00:10:21.844 betterment of Tiger Sisters. 00:10:22.175 --> 00:10:25.814 And I also just have a lot of respect for obviously my older sister and 00:10:25.814 --> 00:10:30.414 going into conversations thinking like, "What if she's right?" You know? 00:10:30.414 --> 00:10:32.715 Instead of being like, "No, I'm definitely right," or like, 00:10:32.715 --> 00:10:35.344 "She's wrong and I have the better idea." It's, it's not really that. 00:10:35.344 --> 00:10:39.804 It's like we both want Tiger Sisters to be so successful and we wanna help people, 00:10:39.804 --> 00:10:41.215 and we have the same mission and vision. 00:10:41.215 --> 00:10:42.634 I'm like, "What if she's right?" 00:10:43.355 --> 00:10:47.704 Matt Abrahams: I really like that approach to potential conflict is 00:10:47.774 --> 00:10:49.175 what if the other person's right? 00:10:49.215 --> 00:10:53.015 Most of us, I think our natural reaction is I'm right, they're wrong. 00:10:53.405 --> 00:10:54.625 But I like that, what if she's right? 00:10:54.815 --> 00:10:57.274 And I love that you also go to the numbers. 00:10:57.345 --> 00:10:58.024 Let's test it out. 00:10:58.075 --> 00:11:00.295 Before we have a battle or a fight, let's try it. 00:11:00.405 --> 00:11:03.024 And in the space you're in and with the technology we have, you 00:11:03.024 --> 00:11:04.304 can test things pretty quickly. 00:11:04.825 --> 00:11:08.905 The notion of being very clear on your goals and alignment also I think is 00:11:08.905 --> 00:11:10.455 something that is, have been helpful. 00:11:10.455 --> 00:11:12.315 I heard you say that was really important upfront. 00:11:12.614 --> 00:11:14.914 Lots that you're doing that many of us can take away. 00:11:14.914 --> 00:11:15.754 Get alignment. 00:11:15.974 --> 00:11:18.284 Think about what if the other person's right, and figure out ways 00:11:18.284 --> 00:11:21.905 to test the areas where there's contention or potential conflict. 00:11:21.905 --> 00:11:22.685 That's really helpful. 00:11:23.144 --> 00:11:28.754 I'm curious to hear, you both made pivots from a completely different career. 00:11:29.164 --> 00:11:31.644 How was that, and how did you communicate that? 00:11:31.644 --> 00:11:35.375 I can imagine family members, friends, others saying, "Well, you had a 00:11:35.375 --> 00:11:38.334 pretty good run doing what you were doing, and you're gonna go do what?" 00:11:38.715 --> 00:11:41.694 What was that thought process, and how did you communicate that in a 00:11:41.694 --> 00:11:44.995 way that was able to help get the support that I assume you've had? 00:11:45.694 --> 00:11:46.015 Jean Luo: Yeah. 00:11:46.044 --> 00:11:49.155 I mean, in many ways terrifying to kind of, not throw away, but 00:11:49.725 --> 00:11:53.245 put aside the entire 15 years, you know, of working in corporate. 00:11:53.245 --> 00:11:57.275 And, you know, after a long time you become quite successful, and 00:11:57.315 --> 00:11:59.084 you are an expert in one area. 00:11:59.084 --> 00:12:03.784 So to move to an entirely new area that I have no evidence that I'll be at all any 00:12:03.784 --> 00:12:06.534 good at it, that was really terrifying. 00:12:06.534 --> 00:12:11.614 But I think the sort of tenet that I've lived my life by and that I use 00:12:11.614 --> 00:12:16.165 to help communicate this change is just the idea of reinvention, right? 00:12:16.214 --> 00:12:21.204 That is a theme that we talk about all the time on Tiger Sisters, that you can 00:12:21.204 --> 00:12:26.094 reinvent yourself at any age, and you can do it in a million different ways. 00:12:26.245 --> 00:12:30.934 So the other tenet that I live my life by is that don't ever, 00:12:30.984 --> 00:12:31.984 like, count yourself out. 00:12:32.335 --> 00:12:34.884 Don't, because so many people, they're gonna wanna, like, count you out. 00:12:35.274 --> 00:12:37.215 Don't do it to yourself before you get into it. 00:12:37.215 --> 00:12:40.394 And especially if you're a woman, play to your strengths, and, like, 00:12:40.475 --> 00:12:43.344 don't worry about the fact that you may not be perfect on paper. 00:12:43.875 --> 00:12:48.614 There's going to be something about you that makes you special for the role. 00:12:49.415 --> 00:12:52.284 Matt Abrahams: I think this idea of reinvention, which comes across 00:12:52.284 --> 00:12:55.385 loud and clear in the show you do, and it's very empowering. 00:12:55.754 --> 00:12:59.034 But every time you reinvent, you're leveraging what you've learned in 00:12:59.034 --> 00:13:02.475 the past, so you're applying all the skills you learned into your new role. 00:13:03.445 --> 00:13:08.824 In communicating that to your colleagues, your parents, et cetera, 00:13:09.405 --> 00:13:11.864 was it hard for you and for them? 00:13:11.905 --> 00:13:14.405 I mean, that's a hard message to say, "I'm leaving a successful career." 00:13:14.775 --> 00:13:17.585 Did you strategically think about the message that you had to deliver? 00:13:18.174 --> 00:13:22.955 Cherie Luo: I think for Jean and me, it may be our mother's worst nightmare that 00:13:22.955 --> 00:13:25.084 we're not working in corporate anymore. 00:13:25.334 --> 00:13:28.375 So we come from, you know, we are Tiger Sisters. 00:13:28.405 --> 00:13:30.775 We have a tiger mom to say the least. 00:13:30.835 --> 00:13:32.885 And she's an immigrant. 00:13:32.975 --> 00:13:36.585 And we grew up thinking that our lives should look a certain way. 00:13:36.635 --> 00:13:40.945 We should get the resume attributes and go to those schools and have those jobs. 00:13:41.284 --> 00:13:47.195 And so I think it's absolutely so scary to share that we are not doing that, 00:13:47.195 --> 00:13:49.394 or we've done that and now trust us. 00:13:49.835 --> 00:13:53.685 We are taking a major pivot, but we believe in ourselves so 00:13:53.685 --> 00:13:57.295 much, so we also need that belief and support from you as well. 00:13:57.674 --> 00:13:59.144 I still think it's kind of a battle. 00:13:59.355 --> 00:14:03.385 Like, maybe battle's kind of a dramatic word, but I do mean that, in that we're 00:14:03.385 --> 00:14:07.504 proving to ourselves, we're proving to the world, and also proving to the 00:14:07.504 --> 00:14:12.435 people who care about us and want the best for us but don't necessarily know 00:14:12.475 --> 00:14:14.924 what this whole media stuff is, you know? 00:14:15.025 --> 00:14:15.185 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:14:15.275 --> 00:14:17.945 One of the things that I wanna pick up on that you said that I think is 00:14:17.975 --> 00:14:21.864 really valuable when communicating change to others from whom we want 00:14:21.864 --> 00:14:23.754 support is that you had an ask. 00:14:23.754 --> 00:14:26.124 You didn't just say, "We're doing this," or, "I'm doing this." You said, 00:14:26.174 --> 00:14:29.665 "And we need your support." And that connection I think is really important 00:14:29.665 --> 00:14:32.295 in sharing that I'm making this change. 00:14:32.385 --> 00:14:36.215 I'm reinventing myself, but I'm gonna need that help and support along the way, and 00:14:36.215 --> 00:14:38.075 that can pull people forward with you. 00:14:38.715 --> 00:14:41.655 You guys are doing a great job of branding yourself and your show. 00:14:42.014 --> 00:14:46.144 In this creator economy, whatever that means, that brand is important. 00:14:46.144 --> 00:14:49.815 Can you talk to us a little bit about the conscious efforts you're following 00:14:49.815 --> 00:14:52.015 or acting on to define your brand? 00:14:52.015 --> 00:14:57.334 Because I believe as we move forward in this creator-led world, all of 00:14:57.334 --> 00:15:00.605 us in some way, shape, or form are gonna have to have a personal brand. 00:15:01.025 --> 00:15:04.884 Maybe it's a show like you have, or maybe it's just when I go to apply for a job, 00:15:04.935 --> 00:15:08.554 I have this brand that others can go check out to see that my brand is in line 00:15:08.554 --> 00:15:09.814 with whatever the corporate brand is. 00:15:10.265 --> 00:15:11.105 Thoughts on branding? 00:15:11.355 --> 00:15:13.015 You're doing a great job at it. 00:15:13.015 --> 00:15:15.584 Cherie Luo: Something that I've been thinking about for branding 00:15:15.584 --> 00:15:18.515 for Tiger Sisters and how I've approached branding for the last few 00:15:18.515 --> 00:15:23.094 years is what makes you stand out in your category or your vertical? 00:15:23.244 --> 00:15:27.395 Be good at what you do, provide value, and what are ways that you are different. 00:15:27.684 --> 00:15:31.695 So one of the reasons why I reached out and we're doing this podcast is 00:15:31.695 --> 00:15:35.614 that our podcasts were next to each other on the top business charts. 00:15:35.695 --> 00:15:39.204 And, you know, Jean and I look at those charts, and sometimes when we're up there 00:15:39.204 --> 00:15:41.535 in the top 10, we're like, "Wait a second. 00:15:41.575 --> 00:15:43.694 We're talking about business. 00:15:43.984 --> 00:15:46.825 We're talking about career, finance, money, power. 00:15:47.005 --> 00:15:50.514 And we are the only people in this category that look and sound like us 00:15:50.554 --> 00:15:52.615 and have the experiences that we have." 00:15:53.134 --> 00:15:57.185 And so I think my takeaway for the last few years is just, like, how can 00:15:57.185 --> 00:16:01.694 you brand yourself as someone who is very credible, be good at what you 00:16:01.694 --> 00:16:05.494 do, provide value, and how are you just a little bit different, providing 00:16:05.494 --> 00:16:07.155 nuance and a different perspective? 00:16:07.645 --> 00:16:11.075 This started when I was in my computer science classes as an undergrad. 00:16:11.484 --> 00:16:14.944 I wasn't the best CS student at all, but something that's different about 00:16:14.944 --> 00:16:16.965 me, I was good enough in my classes. 00:16:16.965 --> 00:16:19.295 I was part of Women in Computer Science. 00:16:19.495 --> 00:16:21.944 But I was very talkative, very outgoing. 00:16:22.344 --> 00:16:26.295 That helped me stand out among my peers who were in the club with me, and I was 00:16:26.505 --> 00:16:30.905 nominated president because I could be the corporate-facing person to talk to 00:16:30.905 --> 00:16:34.285 these companies, to bring the companies to campus and, you know, have those intern 00:16:34.285 --> 00:16:36.615 and job opportunities for my classmates. 00:16:37.014 --> 00:16:41.225 But I think in that way, like, I also was trying to figure out, how do I stand out? 00:16:41.965 --> 00:16:46.035 Matt Abrahams: What I hear in different answers that you gave is knowing 00:16:46.035 --> 00:16:47.454 yourself and where your strengths are. 00:16:48.194 --> 00:16:53.525 And then from a branding perspective, understanding the context you're in and 00:16:53.525 --> 00:16:57.055 figuring out how you can bring a little bit of nuance or difference there so that 00:16:57.085 --> 00:16:58.895 you leverage the strengths that you have. 00:16:59.264 --> 00:17:00.425 And you've done a good job of that. 00:17:00.535 --> 00:17:05.865 And it takes a lot of research and reflection and trial and error, as 00:17:05.865 --> 00:17:07.195 you've mentioned, to really find that. 00:17:07.234 --> 00:17:10.454 But once you do, it can really be helpful for you. 00:17:10.454 --> 00:17:13.695 It gives you focus, and it also invites in those audiences 00:17:13.695 --> 00:17:14.954 for the creative stuff you do. 00:17:15.675 --> 00:17:18.464 One of the things I really appreciate about what you do is you 00:17:18.464 --> 00:17:21.814 take a lot of complex information and make it really accessible. 00:17:21.814 --> 00:17:23.514 And I'd like to get very tactical. 00:17:24.040 --> 00:17:27.199 What are some of the techniques you think through about how to 00:17:27.199 --> 00:17:29.049 communicate it so people understand it? 00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:33.310 I know you think about your audience, but are you thinking, "A good story would work 00:17:33.310 --> 00:17:35.230 here," or, "Let's use an analogy there"? 00:17:35.360 --> 00:17:38.610 Talk to me about that process because it's very helpful to learn material 00:17:38.610 --> 00:17:40.830 through you all and the way you do it. 00:17:41.289 --> 00:17:41.570 Jean Luo: Yeah. 00:17:41.619 --> 00:17:45.369 I think the funny thing is that, again, it helps that we have a similar 00:17:45.369 --> 00:17:48.750 background in that we both went to business school because we really draw 00:17:48.750 --> 00:17:53.390 on that sort of method of learning, of learning through case studies. 00:17:53.390 --> 00:17:58.149 So whether or not we intended to go about it this way, we basically approach every 00:17:58.149 --> 00:18:00.730 single episode as kind of like a lesson. 00:18:01.009 --> 00:18:06.759 And hopefully that's not how people perceive it because it's also 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:08.349 meant to be extremely entertaining. 00:18:08.840 --> 00:18:12.720 But we try to pull the best of what we learned from business school, 00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:15.000 and we always include a case study. 00:18:15.209 --> 00:18:19.360 We include some of the background that people need to learn in order to be 00:18:19.360 --> 00:18:22.619 able to process and build that critical thinking around the topic themselves. 00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:26.320 And then we layer in what I think is our secret sauce, which is we talk a lot 00:18:26.349 --> 00:18:28.860 about our own personal experiences, right? 00:18:28.860 --> 00:18:33.300 So we talk about our mistakes and our failures and the way that we 00:18:33.629 --> 00:18:36.870 had to learn things the hard way across certain topics in our careers. 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.989 And then I think one level deeper, what makes us even more unique, is 00:18:40.989 --> 00:18:44.180 that we don't just take these sort of frameworks and principles and apply 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:49.080 it to business and money and career, but we also apply it to our personal 00:18:49.080 --> 00:18:53.339 lives and our personal relationships, our friendships, our love lives. 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:55.729 And we also have mini exercises. 00:18:56.500 --> 00:18:58.800 Matt Abrahams: And what's so interesting to me is, I mean, the things that you 00:18:58.800 --> 00:19:03.589 do and you've just described are things that people like me use when we teach. 00:19:03.870 --> 00:19:06.949 And I love that you learn them from the other side. 00:19:06.949 --> 00:19:09.870 As students, you learn these techniques, but adult learning theory is all 00:19:09.870 --> 00:19:11.050 about the things that you're doing. 00:19:11.050 --> 00:19:12.879 I love that you use a case to make it real. 00:19:12.879 --> 00:19:14.629 You bring your own personal experiences. 00:19:14.919 --> 00:19:17.739 You give people an activity to do to really reflect. 00:19:18.099 --> 00:19:19.580 That's how people learn and grow. 00:19:20.860 --> 00:19:24.190 Before we end every episode, I always ask three questions. 00:19:24.330 --> 00:19:25.629 One I'm gonna create just for you. 00:19:25.629 --> 00:19:28.199 Actually, instead of a question, I want it to be a little bit of an experience, 00:19:28.199 --> 00:19:29.529 and then I'll ask you the two questions. 00:19:29.879 --> 00:19:33.300 So when I teach, one of the icebreakers I use is a very 00:19:33.300 --> 00:19:34.770 quick game called This or That. 00:19:35.059 --> 00:19:39.500 So what I'd like to do is I'd like to pose to each of you a choice, 00:19:40.050 --> 00:19:42.550 and I'd like you to just state your choice, no more information. 00:19:42.550 --> 00:19:44.759 And then after we do a few of these, I might ask a question. 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:47.649 So it'll be interesting to see if you have similar or different choices. 00:19:47.649 --> 00:19:50.919 So for example, if I were to say to you, Cherie, summer or winter, you would say? 00:19:51.399 --> 00:19:51.720 Cherie Luo: Winter. 00:19:52.059 --> 00:19:52.779 Matt Abrahams: Summer or winter? 00:19:52.779 --> 00:19:53.130 Jean Luo: Summer. 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:53.440 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:53.679 See? 00:19:53.679 --> 00:19:54.289 Interesting. 00:19:54.289 --> 00:19:55.339 Already we've got a difference. 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:56.800 Backpack or suitcase? 00:19:56.949 --> 00:19:57.479 Cherie Luo: Backpack. 00:19:57.839 --> 00:19:58.610 Jean Luo: Suitcase. 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:00.039 Matt Abrahams: Money or time? 00:20:00.300 --> 00:20:00.660 Cherie Luo: Time. 00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:01.460 Jean Luo: Money. 00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:04.490 Matt Abrahams: Player or coach? 00:20:05.009 --> 00:20:05.399 Cherie Luo: Player. 00:20:06.080 --> 00:20:06.809 Jean Luo: Now player. 00:20:07.089 --> 00:20:07.529 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:08.250 Interesting. 00:20:08.250 --> 00:20:08.449 See? 00:20:08.449 --> 00:20:10.520 So some similarities and differences. 00:20:10.789 --> 00:20:12.429 Talk to me about backpack or suitcase. 00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:13.890 Cherie Luo: I like to have things on me. 00:20:13.890 --> 00:20:14.710 I'm ready. 00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:15.890 I'm on the go. 00:20:16.320 --> 00:20:18.600 Suitcase, you gotta, there's more maneuvering 00:20:18.819 --> 00:20:19.680 Matt Abrahams: And for you? 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.660 Jean Luo: I personally have a suitcase that I really, really love. 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:23.180 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:20:23.180 --> 00:20:24.290 Cherie Luo: And that's, that's, 00:20:24.390 --> 00:20:25.150 Matt Abrahams: That's the way you do. 00:20:25.630 --> 00:20:25.990 Okay. 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:27.250 So question number two. 00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:29.609 Jean, I'll ask this of you and I'll come to you with question number three. 00:20:30.080 --> 00:20:32.219 Who's a communicator you admire, and why? 00:20:32.690 --> 00:20:32.879 Jean Luo: Okay. 00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:35.039 I would say Reese Witherspoon. 00:20:35.389 --> 00:20:39.260 'Cause I think she's done something very special with building Hello Sunshine in 00:20:39.260 --> 00:20:45.360 being able to tell stories that are meant for an audience that is historically 00:20:45.360 --> 00:20:48.960 really underserved based on what she wants to hear and what she wants to know. 00:20:49.499 --> 00:20:51.010 Matt Abrahams: So connection and storytelling. 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:54.409 And Reese is, uh, Stanford affiliated, so that's important to note. 00:20:54.409 --> 00:20:58.589 So, cherie, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:20:58.589 --> 00:21:00.390 successful communication recipe? 00:21:00.879 --> 00:21:03.539 Cherie Luo: I would say the first thing is knowing your audience. 00:21:03.629 --> 00:21:06.599 And maybe that's something I learned from you and Allison Kluger from your classes. 00:21:06.819 --> 00:21:07.909 But knowing your audience. 00:21:07.909 --> 00:21:10.719 And I'll, I'll bring this example into the digital world. 00:21:11.089 --> 00:21:16.469 Whereas, like, if I am posting on LinkedIn versus posting on Instagram, 00:21:17.059 --> 00:21:20.900 the message I share and the way that I share it, the medium, and also the 00:21:20.900 --> 00:21:22.699 copy that I use, it's very different. 00:21:23.089 --> 00:21:26.900 The audience on LinkedIn coming from the corporate world, they're expecting 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:28.699 to see more professional content. 00:21:28.900 --> 00:21:32.390 And that way, maybe I can make my content a little bit more personal, surprise 00:21:32.390 --> 00:21:34.100 them a little bit, be more vulnerable. 00:21:34.460 --> 00:21:37.079 It's not what they expect in that way. 00:21:37.170 --> 00:21:39.240 It's a little bit surprising, and they can engage with that. 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:41.780 On Instagram, like, my audience is a bit younger. 00:21:41.829 --> 00:21:43.699 Maybe I should come off a bit more professional. 00:21:43.769 --> 00:21:46.059 That's not what they're seeing on social media. 00:21:46.390 --> 00:21:49.900 So knowing your audience and maybe knowing what they expect and maybe 00:21:50.140 --> 00:21:53.400 tweaking that a little bit so you can surprise and delight them. 00:21:54.070 --> 00:21:57.769 I would say the second thing is when you're talking to people and 00:21:57.769 --> 00:22:02.699 meeting them, I think about how do you be the most curious person and 00:22:02.729 --> 00:22:04.439 asking a lot of questions to them. 00:22:05.030 --> 00:22:07.689 In that way, like, we've all met people who are like, "Oh, my God. 00:22:07.689 --> 00:22:10.729 They're so charming. They're so magnetic." Like, how do they do it? 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.460 And I think it's being really curious about the other person. 00:22:13.699 --> 00:22:17.890 And I think everyone has an interesting story to offer. 00:22:18.049 --> 00:22:21.140 And really digging in and asking good questions and making people 00:22:21.140 --> 00:22:22.119 feel like they're the star. 00:22:22.570 --> 00:22:24.799 Matt Abrahams: So it's about knowing your audience, it's about being 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.859 curious, and it's about bringing out the stories in other people. 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:33.560 Fantastic ingredients and something that's demonstrated on your show all the time. 00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:36.850 It's been lovely to chat with you, to reconnect. 00:22:37.570 --> 00:22:41.450 I am fully a member of the Tiger family, and really appreciate the 00:22:41.450 --> 00:22:42.590 collaboration and the learnings. 00:22:42.590 --> 00:22:43.029 Thank you. 00:22:43.060 --> 00:22:44.590 Cherie Luo: Thank you, Matt. 00:22:44.650 --> 00:22:45.510 Jean Luo: Thank you. 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.259 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:51.350 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:22:51.690 --> 00:22:55.180 To learn more about related topics like we discussed, please check out our extensive 00:22:55.180 --> 00:23:00.394 back catalog you can find wherever you get your podcasts, or at fastersmarter.io. 00:23:00.874 --> 00:23:05.094 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:23:05.344 --> 00:23:06.824 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:23:07.095 --> 00:23:10.035 With special thanks to the team at the Spotify Studios in Los 00:23:10.035 --> 00:23:12.484 Angeles and Podium Podcast Company. 00:23:13.014 --> 00:23:15.914 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:23:16.114 --> 00:23:18.045 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:23:18.254 --> 00:23:21.264 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:23:21.524 --> 00:23:25.295 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep-dive videos, English language 00:23:25.295 --> 00:23:27.395 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:23:27.844 --> 00:23:30.834 Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community 00:23:30.834 --> 00:23:33.384 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:23:33.735 --> 00:23:37.125 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, my AI 00:23:37.125 --> 00:23:39.794 coach, and our book club opportunities. 00:23:40.044 --> 00:23:42.724 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning.