WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.190 Michele: Hey, welcome back to software social. 00:00:02.690 --> 00:00:06.180 This episode is brought to you by Translate CI. 00:00:06.770 --> 00:00:11.690 Translate CI is a tool for developers that helps you localize applications 00:00:12.050 --> 00:00:14.750 with high quality human translations. 00:00:15.230 --> 00:00:17.870 It supports over 70 language pair. 00:00:18.370 --> 00:00:23.950 Translate CI eliminates the need to work out of spreadsheets, hire translators 00:00:23.980 --> 00:00:26.349 and manually merge language files. 00:00:26.849 --> 00:00:29.369 Instead with Translate CI, you just use. 00:00:29.869 --> 00:00:34.580 Just connect your git repo and Translate CI will pull out phrases and after 00:00:34.580 --> 00:00:39.110 a professional translator translates everything, they will merge into your 00:00:39.110 --> 00:00:41.269 existing code base with a poll request. 00:00:41.779 --> 00:00:45.429 And every time you push code, your git repository Translate CI 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:50.419 will pull any new phrases out, translate them and create a PR back. 00:00:50.919 --> 00:00:56.459 See how you can turn translation from a hassle into a breeze at TranslateCI.com 00:00:56.579 --> 00:00:57.489 Hey Colleen. 00:00:58.009 --> 00:00:58.689 Colleen: Hey, Michele. 00:00:58.709 --> 00:00:59.639 Good to see you again. 00:00:59.639 --> 00:01:00.539 It's been a little bit. 00:01:00.539 --> 00:01:00.719 It 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:01.499 Michele: has. 00:01:01.499 --> 00:01:02.129 Yeah. 00:01:02.376 --> 00:01:07.900 So a couple weeks ago I put up this survey of our listeners. 00:01:07.990 --> 00:01:11.010 Mostly because we're getting like more advertisers who, like 00:01:11.010 --> 00:01:12.750 don't, you know, they're not like not part of the community. 00:01:12.750 --> 00:01:16.275 They don't know us and they want to know stuff about gender and 00:01:16.275 --> 00:01:17.745 household income and stuff like that. 00:01:17.745 --> 00:01:20.785 But I also was kind of curious about a few things. 00:01:20.828 --> 00:01:25.398 And today's episode is inspired by something I heard in that survey. 00:01:25.558 --> 00:01:28.798 Okay, so first of all, I put in like, you know, some basic demographic questions 00:01:28.828 --> 00:01:33.088 that advertisers will ask about, but then I also ask, what were you doing while you 00:01:33.088 --> 00:01:34.658 listen to this software social last week? 00:01:34.773 --> 00:01:37.023 What leads you to listen to software social in the first place? 00:01:37.023 --> 00:01:37.863 And do you have any comments? 00:01:38.163 --> 00:01:41.613 What is your guess for what most people are doing while 00:01:41.613 --> 00:01:42.783 they listen to this podcast? 00:01:42.783 --> 00:01:43.443 Colleen: The dishes. 00:01:43.443 --> 00:01:46.833 Michele: That is actually one of the top ones, so doing the 00:01:46.833 --> 00:01:48.693 dishes and going for a walk. 00:01:48.753 --> 00:01:53.303 And when I was making this, I was like should I do multiple choice? 00:01:53.303 --> 00:01:54.473 Or should I do check boxes? 00:01:54.473 --> 00:01:55.223 Or like, just. 00:01:55.733 --> 00:01:59.363 And I was like, well, I listen to podcasts while driving or while doing the laundry. 00:01:59.423 --> 00:02:01.343 So that's probably what most people are going to do, so I usually like 00:02:01.403 --> 00:02:04.503 driving, doing laundry, and I was like, well, maybe people bike or they 00:02:04.503 --> 00:02:07.463 walk or like, and I was like, you know, I'll just make it free form. 00:02:07.733 --> 00:02:10.883 And it turns out that walking and doing the dishes are the ones that 00:02:10.883 --> 00:02:13.913 are automatically making their own categories because so many people 00:02:13.913 --> 00:02:14.993 are putting in the exact same thing. 00:02:14.993 --> 00:02:15.443 Colleen: Nice. 00:02:15.443 --> 00:02:18.923 Michele: Just an interesting note if you go into a piece of research thinking 00:02:18.923 --> 00:02:21.353 you know what the answers are going to be, and then it's totally different. 00:02:21.357 --> 00:02:25.169 So so many nice comments from people about why they listened. 00:02:25.200 --> 00:02:31.680 Still amazing to me that we're doing this, we're what, 80 something episodes 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:38.610 in 80 weeks after we launched this, just passed over 50,000 downloads. 00:02:38.690 --> 00:02:39.470 Colleen: That's wild. 00:02:39.770 --> 00:02:41.780 Michele: Wild, wild. 00:02:41.780 --> 00:02:45.020 Okay, something came out of this that people also asked for when we did our 00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:49.460 little surveying on Twitter was they want to hear more about geocodio problems. 00:02:49.626 --> 00:02:53.436 So, we usually talk more about your problems because it's more 00:02:53.436 --> 00:02:57.032 people are kind of in your stage of things, and there's always 00:02:57.182 --> 00:02:58.652 interesting problems going on there. 00:02:58.672 --> 00:03:01.476 But people want to hear about geocodio, so fine, I'll talk about. 00:03:02.079 --> 00:03:04.869 The thing I've only spent the last eight years on, I guess I'll talk. 00:03:05.179 --> 00:03:06.949 So do you want to workshop a problem with me today? 00:03:07.189 --> 00:03:08.779 I've got something I've been trying to think through. 00:03:08.839 --> 00:03:11.679 Apparently for like over a year, I just found it. 00:03:11.679 --> 00:03:14.299 I would just pull out a notebook actually to take notes while we talk 00:03:14.299 --> 00:03:17.746 about this and I found notes and I'm like, oh, I made these at least 00:03:17.746 --> 00:03:19.816 six months ago, if not a year ago. 00:03:20.116 --> 00:03:20.596 Colleen: Okay. 00:03:20.899 --> 00:03:23.539 Michele: And I remember talking to Mathias and having this huge long chat 00:03:23.539 --> 00:03:24.949 with him about it, like two years ago. 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:30.779 So it has to deal with payments and credit cards and stuff. 00:03:31.349 --> 00:03:34.019 And so I have to give like a lot of background here. 00:03:34.019 --> 00:03:35.529 Have you ever used geocodio? 00:03:35.529 --> 00:03:36.279 Colleen: I have not. 00:03:36.279 --> 00:03:36.699 Michele: Okay. 00:03:36.699 --> 00:03:38.859 So, basically there's two ways you can use it. 00:03:38.889 --> 00:03:41.897 You can either use the API, or you can upload a spreadsheet. 00:03:41.985 --> 00:03:47.235 For example, let's say you are a marketing person, and you want to make a map of 00:03:47.235 --> 00:03:51.285 where all of your customers are, for example, and you have this spreadsheet 00:03:51.285 --> 00:03:56.335 of addresses, you upload that to and then we give you the results back. 00:03:56.335 --> 00:03:59.695 Like we give you a CSV file back where we've added on the columns with 00:03:59.695 --> 00:04:04.155 coordinates, or maybe you asked for census FIPs codes and time zones and 00:04:04.245 --> 00:04:05.355 school districts and something else. 00:04:05.355 --> 00:04:05.565 Right? 00:04:05.565 --> 00:04:07.215 Like we add all of that onto your spreadsheet. 00:04:07.715 --> 00:04:11.259 And so the problem that I'm dealing with here is every month, 00:04:11.259 --> 00:04:12.519 we have our pay as you go plan. 00:04:12.579 --> 00:04:14.169 So we have pay as you go, we have unlimited. 00:04:14.169 --> 00:04:17.229 Then we have like custom, like on-premise stuff on top of that. 00:04:17.310 --> 00:04:19.997 And for pay as you go since the very beginning, it's been that 00:04:19.997 --> 00:04:23.447 we roll up the usage for a whole month and then charge for it on 00:04:23.447 --> 00:04:24.677 the first of the following month. 00:04:24.677 --> 00:04:25.097 Colleen: Okay. 00:04:25.254 --> 00:04:27.234 Michele: And we do that in the beginning because it was an API. 00:04:27.264 --> 00:04:31.079 And so if we were going to charge like every day, you know, somebody for 50 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:35.157 cents worth of usage or whatever, if you add in the 30 cents Stripe 00:04:35.157 --> 00:04:39.597 fee, plus the percentage that would have really dug into our margins. 00:04:39.597 --> 00:04:42.447 And so, it just made sense for us to just do it once a month, 00:04:42.477 --> 00:04:44.067 we gave people a volume discount. 00:04:44.247 --> 00:04:44.937 Everybody's happy. 00:04:44.937 --> 00:04:50.877 The problem is that like every month we usually have 10, 20, maybe 00:04:50.877 --> 00:04:56.697 30 a pay as you go invoices with a credit card on file that fail. 00:04:57.197 --> 00:05:01.387 Now, usually the amounts are not too great, like usually 00:05:01.387 --> 00:05:04.147 it's, you know, $5, $10, $20. 00:05:04.347 --> 00:05:07.347 If it's anything over a hundred dollars, I chase them down. 00:05:07.484 --> 00:05:11.464 But this means basically on, in any given month, we have, you know, 10 to 00:05:11.464 --> 00:05:17.694 15 payments worth, maybe, let's say maybe 250 to $500 every month that 00:05:17.964 --> 00:05:22.347 we just lose because the credit cards fail and we can't get in touch with the 00:05:22.347 --> 00:05:25.467 people, and even if we shut down their account, we never hear from them again. 00:05:25.467 --> 00:05:27.777 Colleen: So first thing, I just want to clarify people are 00:05:27.777 --> 00:05:30.447 intentionally stealing geocoding. 00:05:31.137 --> 00:05:31.497 Oh 00:05:31.557 --> 00:05:35.007 Michele: No, like, so cards fail for a variety of reasons. 00:05:35.007 --> 00:05:39.900 So pretty often case is that like somebody first started using geocodio 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.350 like five years ago and then their card expired because it was only 00:05:43.350 --> 00:05:44.370 good for let's say four years. 00:05:44.870 --> 00:05:49.310 And they didn't know that it expired and Stripe does this automatic Dunning, which 00:05:49.310 --> 00:05:53.030 is this process of trying to recover the payments and trying to you know, 00:05:53.090 --> 00:05:56.635 update the expiration dates and stuff like that, but sometimes it doesn't work. 00:05:56.635 --> 00:05:58.645 So, like there was no malice intended. 00:05:58.645 --> 00:06:03.249 Another time it could be because they're, if they have a corporate card, some 00:06:03.249 --> 00:06:07.999 like companies prohibit employees from using it for SAS services, for example. 00:06:07.999 --> 00:06:11.978 So it could be that, that, or it could be that they typed in the card number wrong. 00:06:12.008 --> 00:06:14.545 It could be their card could be declined. 00:06:14.605 --> 00:06:18.175 It also could be a prepaid card that didn't have enough funds. 00:06:18.175 --> 00:06:20.575 They could have just not paid their account recently. 00:06:20.575 --> 00:06:24.285 So like, it does happen at you get an insufficient funds message back from 00:06:24.285 --> 00:06:27.325 Stripe, and then you try it again a week later and it goes through and it's fine. 00:06:27.326 --> 00:06:30.919 So there's a whole ton of reasons why People's cards fail. 00:06:30.949 --> 00:06:34.249 I like to think that if someone is actively trying to be malicious, 00:06:34.249 --> 00:06:38.329 they're probably going to be one of the people who, you know, spin up a 00:06:38.329 --> 00:06:43.029 whole bunch of automated accounts to try to process spreadsheets for free 00:06:43.059 --> 00:06:47.009 and like, you know, hire a development team off somewhere to run it for free 00:06:47.009 --> 00:06:50.959 for them, which happens occasionally, it's a whole separate kind of problem. 00:06:51.012 --> 00:06:52.452 Thankfully, not a huge one. 00:06:52.586 --> 00:06:55.796 But I like to think that if there's failed payments people aren't being malicious. 00:06:55.796 --> 00:06:56.686 It's unintentional. 00:06:56.686 --> 00:06:58.948 And that it's, you know, kind of on us to like, make sure 00:06:58.948 --> 00:07:00.628 that like their card is good. 00:07:00.748 --> 00:07:01.168 Right. 00:07:01.168 --> 00:07:02.578 So this is where I'm getting to this. 00:07:02.578 --> 00:07:05.728 Is that like I've w as I've been looking at these, I have 00:07:05.728 --> 00:07:07.138 noticed a couple of things. 00:07:07.138 --> 00:07:08.428 I have a couple of anecdotes here. 00:07:08.428 --> 00:07:11.778 First is that a lot of them seem to only have one charge. 00:07:12.048 --> 00:07:16.518 And when I go and look at it, it's a, for their first charge, they've 00:07:16.518 --> 00:07:18.108 only uploaded one spreadsheet. 00:07:18.108 --> 00:07:20.208 So I don't have data behind this. 00:07:20.208 --> 00:07:24.408 Like, I haven't actually run a report on this, but several dozen of them, it 00:07:24.408 --> 00:07:26.758 seems they uploaded a spreadsheet once. 00:07:26.758 --> 00:07:28.318 They thought they paid for it. 00:07:28.318 --> 00:07:32.428 And then, so when I emailed them three weeks later saying, Hey, like this credit 00:07:32.428 --> 00:07:35.278 card payment failed, they don't think it's anything they need to pay attention 00:07:35.278 --> 00:07:36.058 to because they think they already. 00:07:36.659 --> 00:07:37.073 Colleen: Right. 00:07:37.073 --> 00:07:40.583 Michele: And we didn't catch it then that, oh, like their corporate card doesn't 00:07:40.583 --> 00:07:44.183 allow this kind of charge or they typed in the number wrong or whatever that is. 00:07:44.442 --> 00:07:47.052 But then again, it could be API usage, as well. 00:07:47.052 --> 00:07:49.902 And so, we were kind of talking this through and it's like, we're 00:07:49.902 --> 00:07:51.882 basically giving people credit. 00:07:51.882 --> 00:07:54.272 And they may not pay us for it. 00:07:54.272 --> 00:07:58.022 And we're giving them a discount for doing so, like, this is messed up. 00:07:58.522 --> 00:08:00.112 Like this is not happening. 00:08:00.112 --> 00:08:03.082 But then the risk is, is if we're already asking for a credit card, 00:08:03.142 --> 00:08:06.604 like let's say, when they go process the file you know, but then if we run 00:08:06.604 --> 00:08:10.384 the credit card right away, like what kind of problems does that create? 00:08:11.179 --> 00:08:13.579 Is it a net benefit for the business or does it create problems? 00:08:13.579 --> 00:08:18.172 In the old days, the old days of geocodio when our product was not as 00:08:18.172 --> 00:08:22.312 strong and, you know, we were dealing with all sorts of issues that Excel 00:08:22.312 --> 00:08:25.552 introduces, for example, for a long time, like, it was pretty often that we would 00:08:25.552 --> 00:08:27.052 have to rerun someone's spreadsheet. 00:08:27.052 --> 00:08:29.722 So it was really awesome that we didn't charge right away because 00:08:29.722 --> 00:08:32.512 there would be hiccups in the process. 00:08:32.512 --> 00:08:36.363 Just everything from You know like UCF eight and coding issues, or somebody 00:08:36.363 --> 00:08:39.753 downloads a spreadsheet from Salesforce and it's in this really weird format. 00:08:39.753 --> 00:08:40.983 And like, we don't handle it. 00:08:40.983 --> 00:08:44.797 And we've had so many of those issues over the years, but we have dealt 00:08:44.797 --> 00:08:48.989 with a lot of them at this point that, that benefit of not charging people 00:08:48.989 --> 00:08:50.329 right away I think has gone away. 00:08:50.329 --> 00:08:53.479 Like, it's really, really rare now that, that we have some of 00:08:53.479 --> 00:08:54.349 those issues that we used to have. 00:08:54.651 --> 00:08:57.141 Um, But I think this is, you know, one of the things about running 00:08:57.141 --> 00:09:02.141 a mature business is that like every decision has to be weighed 00:09:02.141 --> 00:09:04.361 against all of these pros and cons. 00:09:04.361 --> 00:09:08.711 And it's not clear cut of, yes, this is obviously the right thing to do. 00:09:08.711 --> 00:09:10.541 It's like, okay, well we could do this. 00:09:10.541 --> 00:09:14.531 And maybe we have a chance of recovering say, let's say $250. 00:09:15.031 --> 00:09:18.391 But then are we somehow reducing conversions by doing this? 00:09:18.421 --> 00:09:22.501 Like, is there a downside here to, how does this change the user experience? 00:09:22.501 --> 00:09:26.191 You know, people have you using us for a long time without any issues 00:09:26.461 --> 00:09:27.601 who've been paying once a month? 00:09:27.953 --> 00:09:31.193 How will they feel about then having to get charged every time? 00:09:31.193 --> 00:09:32.153 Are they going to like that? 00:09:32.153 --> 00:09:35.663 They're going to have a lot of receipts now, should we have a credit 00:09:35.663 --> 00:09:37.043 system where people can buy credits? 00:09:37.043 --> 00:09:39.263 Like, do we do this with the API as well? 00:09:39.263 --> 00:09:41.213 Do we let them stay on monthly billing? 00:09:41.483 --> 00:09:43.313 Do we force them to buy credits? 00:09:43.313 --> 00:09:46.313 Like most pays you go services, do like Twilio and a whole bunch of others. 00:09:46.313 --> 00:09:47.273 You have to buy credits. 00:09:47.379 --> 00:09:49.539 You can't just live on credit, so to speak. 00:09:49.676 --> 00:09:50.936 So, is this just for spreadsheets? 00:09:50.966 --> 00:09:52.046 Is it for API? 00:09:52.096 --> 00:09:53.476 Is It just for new users? 00:09:53.526 --> 00:09:56.526 Should we just be more sophisticated about how we're handling credit cards? 00:09:56.526 --> 00:10:00.456 Like there's like a lot of directions this one little problem could go in. 00:10:00.456 --> 00:10:01.716 Colleen: Yeah, I see that. 00:10:01.716 --> 00:10:02.196 Michele: Yeah. 00:10:02.196 --> 00:10:07.116 Colleen: So if you were to change it and charge them upfront, can you measure 00:10:07.116 --> 00:10:09.276 if you see a difference in conversions? 00:10:09.276 --> 00:10:10.146 Michele: Yes. 00:10:10.448 --> 00:10:10.778 Okay. 00:10:10.868 --> 00:10:11.948 We could. 00:10:11.948 --> 00:10:16.508 So we track when different events fire off when someone's uploading a spreadsheet. 00:10:16.508 --> 00:10:21.128 So like when they first upload it as part of the, like, there's like a whole 00:10:21.158 --> 00:10:25.148 upload flow, that's like four steps on because they have to confirm, you know, 00:10:25.178 --> 00:10:26.768 which columns have the address in it. 00:10:26.768 --> 00:10:29.278 And then you know, say if they want additional data 00:10:29.278 --> 00:10:30.088 and all that kind of stuff. 00:10:30.088 --> 00:10:34.068 So when they first drop it into the file upload, which is where your heart 00:10:34.068 --> 00:10:38.600 is, so like that that's an event that's saved and then if it actually processes, 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:41.030 that's an event that saved as well. 00:10:41.056 --> 00:10:46.010 And so we could track, I don't know if we currently track whether the credit card 00:10:46.010 --> 00:10:49.190 ad, how, like anything about that process. 00:10:49.190 --> 00:10:53.020 Of course, we also have analytics on the page, but we've actually just thought 00:10:53.020 --> 00:10:56.350 about just deleting Google analytics entirely because we never even look at it. 00:10:56.350 --> 00:10:59.070 And if it's like privacy invading, then like what's the point, the point. 00:10:59.100 --> 00:10:59.430 Yeah. 00:10:59.560 --> 00:10:59.870 Yeah. 00:10:59.903 --> 00:11:02.753 And we don't, you know, the big use case for using analytics is 00:11:02.753 --> 00:11:05.483 if you're running ads to track conversions, but we don't run any ads. 00:11:05.483 --> 00:11:06.593 So it's correct. 00:11:06.689 --> 00:11:09.559 So yes, I mean, we could track that. 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:12.559 I guess somebody who's, you know, uploading say a list of 10,000 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.869 addresses or a hundred thousand, they're already being asked for a 00:11:15.869 --> 00:11:21.599 credit card, so it's not introducing any friction that was not there before. 00:11:21.629 --> 00:11:25.619 It's more that they were not being charged before. 00:11:25.619 --> 00:11:25.949 Colleen: Right. 00:11:25.949 --> 00:11:30.539 Basically if I want to use geocoding, I come in, I give you my credit card. 00:11:30.869 --> 00:11:33.779 You basically let me do whatever I want for a month. 00:11:34.109 --> 00:11:37.449 And then at the end of the month, you say you've used X amount of 00:11:37.449 --> 00:11:40.779 credits and you charge me for the credits that I have used is that. 00:11:41.339 --> 00:11:44.405 Michele: So that first part, that now sounds pretty crazy 00:11:44.405 --> 00:11:45.291 when you say it like that. 00:11:45.291 --> 00:11:46.629 Yes is true. 00:11:46.629 --> 00:11:51.039 So you like buying credits is optional, so like you could make an account, make 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:54.519 an API key, add a credit card to your account, or not at a credit card account. 00:11:54.729 --> 00:11:57.516 If you don't want to go over the free tier Yeah, use it. 00:11:57.516 --> 00:12:00.576 And then at the end of the month, we'll charge you, you know, on the 00:12:00.576 --> 00:12:05.736 first let's say on March 1st, we'll charge you $50 or $500 or $5,000 00:12:05.851 --> 00:12:07.651 based on your usage for that month. 00:12:07.651 --> 00:12:11.131 Colleen: Because all the other services I do use require you to 00:12:11.131 --> 00:12:13.831 purchase your credits up front. 00:12:13.831 --> 00:12:14.411 Michele: Interesting. 00:12:14.411 --> 00:12:14.881 Interesting. 00:12:15.131 --> 00:12:16.811 So, how do you feel about that? 00:12:17.111 --> 00:12:20.381 Colleen: Your model is way better, honestly, because buying credits 00:12:20.381 --> 00:12:21.911 up front is a huge pain in the ass. 00:12:21.911 --> 00:12:24.141 You never know how many exactly you're going to need. 00:12:24.141 --> 00:12:27.316 And I think that what you described actually sounds 00:12:27.316 --> 00:12:28.966 quite lovely and low stress 00:12:29.566 --> 00:12:31.426 Michele: for a user's perspective. 00:12:31.966 --> 00:12:34.156 Colleen: Like if I'm the user well, let's think about. 00:12:34.156 --> 00:12:36.256 I guess that's kind of how AWS works, right? 00:12:36.286 --> 00:12:40.936 Like you get billed every month based on what you have used. 00:12:40.966 --> 00:12:44.956 You don't come in and say, I'm going to use five gigs this month, ahead of time. 00:12:44.956 --> 00:12:46.636 Michele: But then what happens on AWS? 00:12:46.666 --> 00:12:48.586 If your credit card fails? 00:12:48.586 --> 00:12:50.466 Colleen: I don't know my credit card. 00:12:50.476 --> 00:12:54.156 Hasn't don't want to know they shut down all my storage. 00:12:54.246 --> 00:12:57.256 Michele: I mean, we could be much stricter. 00:12:57.256 --> 00:13:00.076 Like there's a lot of trust implied with this system. 00:13:00.336 --> 00:13:03.896 And this is the thing too, is like the vast majority. 00:13:04.396 --> 00:13:05.686 This is like completely fine. 00:13:05.716 --> 00:13:09.986 Like this is only a tiny payments every month that we have this issue with. 00:13:09.986 --> 00:13:14.186 And the vast majority of them are completely fine. 00:13:14.606 --> 00:13:19.166 And so, do we want to let this be a situation of, you know, a few people 00:13:19.166 --> 00:13:20.996 like spoil it for everybody else? 00:13:20.996 --> 00:13:22.706 Colleen: So question for you. 00:13:22.756 --> 00:13:26.236 Why wouldn't this be a hair on fire problem for me, if I am a customer of 00:13:26.236 --> 00:13:31.456 yours and you shut down my account won't I know because I can no longer use your API. 00:13:31.486 --> 00:13:33.016 You're saying a lot of people just bounce. 00:13:33.016 --> 00:13:33.436 Like they don't 00:13:33.436 --> 00:13:33.976 Michele: even notice. 00:13:34.486 --> 00:13:35.566 I floated one spreadsheet. 00:13:35.566 --> 00:13:37.126 Let's say your boss gives you a project. 00:13:37.246 --> 00:13:41.592 You've got a hundred thousand addresses and you need census FIPs code for all 00:13:41.592 --> 00:13:45.492 of them, which is this census identifier that you use to connect to other datasets. 00:13:45.492 --> 00:13:47.142 And it's a very common use case for us. 00:13:47.192 --> 00:13:48.503 Your boss gives you the spreadsheet. 00:13:48.503 --> 00:13:49.883 You need to add the FIPs codes, do it. 00:13:49.943 --> 00:13:52.823 You go, you upload the spreadsheet and then you don't need to do that again. 00:13:52.823 --> 00:13:53.423 Uh, So 00:13:53.423 --> 00:13:55.703 Colleen: This is what you're talking about, how they operate in good faith. 00:13:56.153 --> 00:13:57.173 They gave you a credit card. 00:13:57.173 --> 00:13:58.493 They don't see their corporate credit card. 00:13:58.673 --> 00:14:00.503 They assume you charged it when they did that. 00:14:01.073 --> 00:14:05.663 And so when the credit card fails three weeks later, they assume it doesn't 00:14:05.663 --> 00:14:07.013 matter because I've already paid for it. 00:14:07.403 --> 00:14:07.763 Michele: Right? 00:14:07.763 --> 00:14:12.083 So the other thing is that we have people email us at least once a week, 00:14:12.083 --> 00:14:16.268 we get somebody emailing us saying, Hey, I uploaded this file on February 00:14:16.268 --> 00:14:18.083 5th and I didn't get a receipt. 00:14:18.481 --> 00:14:23.011 And then we have to explain, oh no, you're going to be charged on the first. 00:14:23.011 --> 00:14:24.091 And then people get it. 00:14:24.091 --> 00:14:26.401 And we send people an email when they add a credit card to 00:14:26.401 --> 00:14:27.901 their account explaining this. 00:14:27.901 --> 00:14:32.371 And it's said all over the website, but it seems like people expect to 00:14:32.371 --> 00:14:34.921 pay for the spreadsheets right away. 00:14:35.421 --> 00:14:37.221 Colleen: Yeah, cause it feels like a discrete event. 00:14:37.281 --> 00:14:39.151 Like to me, that's what I would think too. 00:14:39.151 --> 00:14:41.011 I would think I'm doing this discrete event. 00:14:41.371 --> 00:14:43.171 I will be charged for this specific event 00:14:43.201 --> 00:14:44.311 Michele: and interesting. 00:14:44.311 --> 00:14:49.321 But then, so for the API, like I imagine when you add your credit 00:14:49.321 --> 00:14:54.101 card to a AWS, for example, can you remember if they did some sort of 00:14:54.101 --> 00:14:56.831 card verification on your account or. 00:14:57.331 --> 00:15:00.031 Do you just like add it and then it's been 00:15:00.031 --> 00:15:03.281 Colleen: a long time, but I don't remember any, you were talking 00:15:03.281 --> 00:15:06.294 about like those companies that put like a cent in your account. 00:15:06.384 --> 00:15:07.194 Michele: Yeah, exactly. 00:15:07.434 --> 00:15:08.274 Or they just, I don't 00:15:08.274 --> 00:15:11.994 Colleen: test the car, like, like hotels, how they put a hold on it. 00:15:12.009 --> 00:15:13.432 I don't think they did anything like that. 00:15:13.882 --> 00:15:16.642 I mean, AWS is probably to the point where they don't care, right. 00:15:16.642 --> 00:15:18.909 If they lose $10,000 a month, what do they care? 00:15:18.909 --> 00:15:20.199 They make a bazillion dollars a month. 00:15:20.199 --> 00:15:20.499 Michele: Right. 00:15:20.529 --> 00:15:23.829 I mean, if you, if your AWS bill is only $5 a month and 00:15:23.829 --> 00:15:24.729 you're doing something right. 00:15:24.732 --> 00:15:29.595 Colleen: So I guess what I'm saying is that kind of credit card verification 00:15:29.625 --> 00:15:32.505 upfront seems really painful to everyone. 00:15:32.505 --> 00:15:35.565 Like it would really hurt me if I tried to sign up for a service and they're 00:15:35.565 --> 00:15:38.475 like, I'm going to charge your credit card 5 cents to make sure it's a real card. 00:15:38.475 --> 00:15:39.105 I'd be like, really. 00:15:39.605 --> 00:15:40.805 That's a really annoying 00:15:40.808 --> 00:15:43.725 Michele: what if you had to buy $5 worth of credits or something, 00:15:43.725 --> 00:15:44.925 would that still be annoying, 00:15:44.925 --> 00:15:45.825 Colleen: Are those credits enough? 00:15:45.825 --> 00:15:48.345 For my spreadsheet that I need with my 10,000 addresses? 00:15:48.345 --> 00:15:50.145 Or do I not know until I try to do so? 00:15:50.145 --> 00:15:50.415 Okay. 00:15:50.415 --> 00:15:51.825 So, so what are we still talking about the 00:15:51.825 --> 00:15:52.215 Michele: API? 00:15:52.275 --> 00:15:55.005 Well, yeah, I think, cause I feel like very different use cases to me. 00:15:55.625 --> 00:15:59.015 For the spreadsheet, you would just purchase it right away. 00:15:59.015 --> 00:16:03.395 And I would not make you go through the hassle of buying credits in 00:16:03.395 --> 00:16:05.495 order to run like that seems onerous. 00:16:05.525 --> 00:16:08.335 And the really, the only reason we have credits is people are like, 00:16:08.725 --> 00:16:13.015 Hey, I work for a big organization and we can't do pay as you go. 00:16:13.095 --> 00:16:16.995 We need to have a reliable um, a predictable bill. 00:16:17.265 --> 00:16:18.705 Can I buy $500? 00:16:19.205 --> 00:16:22.165 I'm sure it was because people like actually needed it. 00:16:22.176 --> 00:16:25.356 Or yeah, like, you know, big organizations, big institutions 00:16:25.356 --> 00:16:29.679 that have like annual budgets, like we don't really push credit. 00:16:29.709 --> 00:16:31.509 It's only kind of there if people need it. 00:16:31.509 --> 00:16:31.989 Colleen: I see. 00:16:32.239 --> 00:16:34.909 Michele: It creates an incentive for people to buy credits because 00:16:34.909 --> 00:16:38.479 we give people, the incentive to buy credits is that you get a volume 00:16:38.479 --> 00:16:40.686 discount on the credit purchase. 00:16:40.926 --> 00:16:45.184 So like, let's say that if you were to use let's say $50 worth of usage every 00:16:45.184 --> 00:16:49.584 month, you're only getting that level of discount, which is probably around 5%. 00:16:49.584 --> 00:16:51.927 I think if that I should know that off the top of my head. 00:16:51.927 --> 00:16:55.344 And, but then if you buy, let's say a thousand dollars worth of credits, like 00:16:55.344 --> 00:16:59.484 you're actually getting, you know, like a much bigger percentage discount on that. 00:16:59.874 --> 00:17:02.924 But so then if you're not paying for, like, if you are somebody who 00:17:02.924 --> 00:17:07.364 uses spreadsheets often, then there is an incentive to buy credits and 00:17:07.364 --> 00:17:11.224 get the discount, which is more reliable for us because then we know 00:17:11.224 --> 00:17:12.794 that we've been paid for your use. 00:17:13.197 --> 00:17:13.647 Colleen: Right. 00:17:13.647 --> 00:17:15.357 Michele: But we're not forcing it on people either. 00:17:15.717 --> 00:17:18.237 Colleen: Can you separate these discrete events from these 00:17:18.237 --> 00:17:20.667 API credits or pay as you go? 00:17:20.667 --> 00:17:21.417 Michele: What do you mean? 00:17:21.417 --> 00:17:24.477 Colleen: I mean, can you, so everyone who uses a discreet event, can you just 00:17:24.477 --> 00:17:26.037 charge them for that when it happens? 00:17:26.067 --> 00:17:28.617 Michele: So uploading that spreadsheet is the only discreet. 00:17:28.617 --> 00:17:28.707 Colleen: Yeah. 00:17:28.707 --> 00:17:29.577 That's what I meant. 00:17:29.677 --> 00:17:30.607 Michele: Yeah, no, yeah. 00:17:30.607 --> 00:17:31.627 We could do that. 00:17:31.627 --> 00:17:34.297 Colleen: Oh, but you know what, Michelle, what if you have 10, 15, 26. 00:17:34.857 --> 00:17:35.277 Michele: Right. 00:17:35.277 --> 00:17:36.207 Colleen: That's so annoying. 00:17:36.237 --> 00:17:39.537 Michele: Or what if you used the API and you upload spreadsheets, which is another 00:17:39.537 --> 00:17:43.077 group of users, especially for people who have, we call them like team accounts. 00:17:43.077 --> 00:17:46.277 So you've got 10 people in your company who are all using geocoding and 00:17:46.277 --> 00:17:47.957 you're getting consolidated billing. 00:17:48.407 --> 00:17:53.850 So, let's say your whole BI team is using . Some of the people are using the API and 00:17:53.850 --> 00:17:55.980 some of the people are using spreadsheets. 00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:58.590 If we're charging individually for spreadsheet. 00:17:59.304 --> 00:18:01.294 Then it could be an opt out thing. 00:18:01.654 --> 00:18:07.114 Like you could opt for either monthly billing or one time billing, like as 00:18:07.114 --> 00:18:10.624 it happens billing, or maybe we could say, if you have a team account, you 00:18:10.624 --> 00:18:14.254 can only get one monthly invoice because then if it's a team account, it's 00:18:14.254 --> 00:18:16.474 usually like, it's like a legit company. 00:18:16.474 --> 00:18:18.784 It's not just somebody at Gmail. 00:18:19.204 --> 00:18:22.894 And then if they don't pay it, then I can go chase down their 00:18:22.894 --> 00:18:23.914 accounts payable department. 00:18:24.414 --> 00:18:26.034 So that is actually not. 00:18:26.534 --> 00:18:28.964 Colleen: How many people do you think you have split on pay as 00:18:28.964 --> 00:18:30.254 you go versus buying credits? 00:18:30.254 --> 00:18:32.684 Especially since you said you're incentivized to buy credits. 00:18:32.684 --> 00:18:34.964 Michele: So credits are part of pay as you go. 00:18:34.964 --> 00:18:35.354 Okay. 00:18:35.384 --> 00:18:37.004 Like it's under that umbrella. 00:18:37.034 --> 00:18:43.604 I don't actually know how many users by credits, but it's not many, right? 00:18:43.634 --> 00:18:44.024 Like. 00:18:44.024 --> 00:18:48.044 It's most pays you go, customers are paying as they go. 00:18:48.544 --> 00:18:51.664 Colleen: So what typically happens when you have these Stripe has 00:18:51.664 --> 00:18:55.444 automated Dunning, but is it just, they just retry the card. 00:18:55.504 --> 00:18:56.974 They're not emailing the person. 00:18:57.064 --> 00:18:57.664 Michele: They do. 00:18:57.694 --> 00:19:02.464 They send an email and then I think they send emails and then we also send 00:19:02.464 --> 00:19:07.954 an email through Intercom, and then if the amount is like over a hundred 00:19:07.954 --> 00:19:12.194 dollars, I email them, my VA emails them, that doesn't lead us anywhere. 00:19:12.194 --> 00:19:15.806 You know, we moved towards shutting down their account or finding the 00:19:15.806 --> 00:19:19.786 email for accounts payable, if it's like at company or, I mean, there was 00:19:19.786 --> 00:19:23.686 one time I even like DMD a company on Twitter and it was like, I need the 00:19:23.686 --> 00:19:25.996 email for your accounts via department, so we don't break your website. 00:19:26.026 --> 00:19:26.656 Thank you. 00:19:26.662 --> 00:19:28.123 That's pretty rare that I do that. 00:19:28.123 --> 00:19:28.565 So yeah, 00:19:28.785 --> 00:19:30.375 Colleen: Let's just think about this. 00:19:30.375 --> 00:19:34.155 If you switched everyone to paying upfront. 00:19:34.155 --> 00:19:39.165 That would decrease your personal, like I guess what I'm trying to say. 00:19:39.165 --> 00:19:41.385 It's not just getting that two to $500 back. 00:19:41.385 --> 00:19:45.105 It's also getting all that time and logistics back of all these 00:19:45.105 --> 00:19:47.805 emails you were sending and all this hunting down people. 00:19:48.135 --> 00:19:48.255 Michele: Yeah. 00:19:48.885 --> 00:19:49.785 That is automated. 00:19:49.815 --> 00:19:52.785 But yes, I think there is definitely time involved. 00:19:52.785 --> 00:19:55.425 And I mean, I think, I mean, maybe the problem is we're just doing. 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:56.520 Right. 00:19:56.520 --> 00:20:00.570 Like if we automated this so that, okay, you've got seven 00:20:00.570 --> 00:20:02.010 days after the payment fails. 00:20:02.177 --> 00:20:07.457 And then instead of restricting you to the free tier, we just shut you off entirely. 00:20:07.547 --> 00:20:09.077 And it's automated, right? 00:20:09.077 --> 00:20:10.787 Like this is something we talked through a while ago, like 00:20:10.787 --> 00:20:12.977 sending alerts through the API. 00:20:12.977 --> 00:20:16.307 I mean, people have actually wanted to be able to get billing information through 00:20:16.307 --> 00:20:18.347 the API and we have punted on that. 00:20:18.467 --> 00:20:21.637 But like, you know, sending someone an error back saying this is being 00:20:21.637 --> 00:20:24.707 rejected because your payment fit, like, because your account is delinquent. 00:20:24.707 --> 00:20:25.937 We don't do that right now. 00:20:25.967 --> 00:20:30.374 We only shut people down if it's been several months Yeah, 00:20:30.404 --> 00:20:31.634 maybe we're just too nice. 00:20:31.634 --> 00:20:36.164 Colleen: So, okay, we haven't recorded for like a month, but, and I know our 00:20:36.164 --> 00:20:38.234 businesses are totally different, right. 00:20:38.534 --> 00:20:42.344 I mean, but you did just tell me a month ago when I was discussing 00:20:42.344 --> 00:20:46.394 this same problem with you, that if it's a hair on fire problem, like 00:20:46.424 --> 00:20:47.324 they'll get their shit together. 00:20:47.594 --> 00:20:48.164 They'll yeah. 00:20:48.194 --> 00:20:48.494 Sorry. 00:20:48.884 --> 00:20:49.934 They'll get it together. 00:20:49.964 --> 00:20:51.044 And they'll pay their bill. 00:20:51.134 --> 00:20:53.954 Like we just have this conversation regarding file uploading. 00:20:54.374 --> 00:20:57.719 Michele: They will, but there's a question of just because like, if you 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:02.119 delete somebody's API key or you freeze their API key, that they will notice, 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:05.569 and it's a hair on fire problem and you've broken their thing just because 00:21:05.569 --> 00:21:08.899 they will react that way, it doesn't mean you have to or should do that. 00:21:09.019 --> 00:21:09.199 Right. 00:21:09.229 --> 00:21:12.079 And I think this is what I struggle with is like, if I was on the 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.659 receiving end of that and I didn't realize that my corporate card didn't 00:21:16.659 --> 00:21:20.289 support this kind of purchase or that I had, I don't know, whatever, like 00:21:20.289 --> 00:21:21.189 there was something wrong with it. 00:21:21.689 --> 00:21:24.529 And then all of a sudden my website is broken because of this 00:21:24.529 --> 00:21:26.089 like that would stress me out. 00:21:26.089 --> 00:21:27.589 That would totally throw me into a panic. 00:21:27.589 --> 00:21:29.209 And I guess I don't want to throw somebody. 00:21:29.499 --> 00:21:30.579 Colleen: Yeah, but that's your fault. 00:21:31.059 --> 00:21:31.809 So you should be. 00:21:32.309 --> 00:21:33.989 Michele: Saying, it's like, we're too nice about this. 00:21:34.019 --> 00:21:36.599 Maybe we do need to be a little, I mean, I'm not saying 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:37.889 it has to be more harsh about 00:21:37.889 --> 00:21:41.159 Colleen: it two days or three days, but if you're sending five, it sounds 00:21:41.159 --> 00:21:43.649 like you're sending a whole series 00:21:43.649 --> 00:21:44.579 Michele: of emails that go out. 00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:49.019 Colleen: So after their X number of emails, if the problem has not resolved, 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:51.879 I think just cut them off and it's a problem, they'll reach back out. 00:21:51.879 --> 00:21:55.509 I mean, they can do whatever they want cause they're humans, but theoretically 00:21:55.509 --> 00:21:59.409 they have no justification to be pissed if you've sent them five emails. 00:21:59.529 --> 00:22:00.039 Right, right. 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.309 It's like, dude, you got to read your email and you guys 00:22:03.309 --> 00:22:04.629 are so quick to respond. 00:22:04.629 --> 00:22:08.029 You could have you know, their API key alive again within 24 00:22:08.029 --> 00:22:09.319 hours once they got it together. 00:22:10.009 --> 00:22:13.349 So yeah, it here's my, my initial thought on this. 00:22:13.849 --> 00:22:19.189 For the size of your business, changing your entire pricing structure, just to get 00:22:19.189 --> 00:22:22.039 two to $500 back does not seem worth it. 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:25.389 However it depends on what you're really getting back. 00:22:25.419 --> 00:22:31.449 If it's more about trying to get that time back, or you're just morally angry that 00:22:31.449 --> 00:22:33.349 someone is that this is happening to you. 00:22:33.349 --> 00:22:36.905 But think of the size of your business, that's a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage 00:22:36.905 --> 00:22:40.415 of your business and changing your whole pricing structure has the 00:22:40.415 --> 00:22:44.705 possibility of really upsetting people who have been with you for a while, 00:22:44.705 --> 00:22:46.865 who are happy with what you have. 00:22:46.865 --> 00:22:47.345 Michele: Yeah. 00:22:47.845 --> 00:22:50.985 And this is what it comes down to you is that like, when you're 00:22:50.985 --> 00:22:55.845 confronted with a decision, doing nothing is always an option, right? 00:22:55.905 --> 00:22:59.595 Like the Knoll option is always available, but we often don't realize. 00:22:59.905 --> 00:23:00.265 Yeah. 00:23:00.295 --> 00:23:02.875 And I think this is why this is a problem that we have kicked around 00:23:02.875 --> 00:23:05.995 for two years, because we all have this work to think it through. 00:23:05.995 --> 00:23:09.115 And like, I mean, I'm literally sitting here looking at like a flow chart 00:23:09.145 --> 00:23:13.005 of all of the different possible permutations of this, and then we get 00:23:13.005 --> 00:23:15.935 back to it and it's like, what is some smaller way that we can solve this? 00:23:15.935 --> 00:23:17.465 Did she make it marginally better? 00:23:17.465 --> 00:23:19.445 Maybe we should be a bit more harsh. 00:23:19.475 --> 00:23:20.285 I mean, it's also occurred to me. 00:23:20.285 --> 00:23:22.895 It's like maybe the first time someone uploads a spreadsheet, 00:23:23.555 --> 00:23:26.285 then we charge them right away to like, make sure the card is good. 00:23:26.285 --> 00:23:28.775 And then after that we charged them once a month, but I don't 00:23:28.775 --> 00:23:30.305 know, that seems complicated. 00:23:30.305 --> 00:23:30.695 Right. 00:23:30.695 --> 00:23:32.225 Colleen: That seems complicated. 00:23:32.484 --> 00:23:34.314 I'm trying to think of other services. 00:23:34.564 --> 00:23:37.714 I have S three accounts on three different providers and they all work 00:23:37.714 --> 00:23:43.164 where they bill you at the end of the month, based on that month's usage. 00:23:43.434 --> 00:23:45.804 But that's the joke with AWS is like, you'd never know how 00:23:45.804 --> 00:23:46.674 much your bill is going to be. 00:23:46.674 --> 00:23:48.384 It's always a mystery, however, 00:23:48.384 --> 00:23:49.884 Michele: well, there's other reasons too, though. 00:23:50.004 --> 00:23:54.414 I know the AWS dashboard and like actually figuring out like what you 00:23:54.414 --> 00:23:56.484 were paying for something is always fun. 00:23:57.054 --> 00:24:00.324 Like I'm, there's separate services built on top of AWS, just to tell you that. 00:24:00.476 --> 00:24:03.296 What I know, like the fact that you have to pay somebody else to tell you 00:24:03.296 --> 00:24:05.726 what you're paying AWS is pretty funny. 00:24:06.146 --> 00:24:06.776 Absurd. 00:24:06.806 --> 00:24:07.046 Yeah. 00:24:07.306 --> 00:24:10.516 I think you talked about how, like, we don't really send any email, like 00:24:10.966 --> 00:24:16.396 you sent, like maybe two or three, product update emails last year. 00:24:16.396 --> 00:24:19.738 And you know, we have the ability for people to set a 00:24:19.768 --> 00:24:21.808 billing limit on their account. 00:24:21.808 --> 00:24:22.228 Okay. 00:24:22.378 --> 00:24:26.308 Having had that experience of the surprise bill, like not wanting anyone 00:24:26.308 --> 00:24:29.181 to go through that, but we thought about like having like a weekly wrap up 00:24:29.211 --> 00:24:31.401 email that's like, here is your usage. 00:24:31.819 --> 00:24:32.959 Here's your running do it? 00:24:33.019 --> 00:24:34.629 Colleen: No, I hate email. 00:24:35.289 --> 00:24:36.159 Don't do it 00:24:36.659 --> 00:24:39.479 Michele: like a content thing to where we would put our news out there and 00:24:39.479 --> 00:24:40.979 then it was like, I would unsubscribe 00:24:40.979 --> 00:24:42.299 Colleen: from that shit so fast. 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:43.549 I hate those. 00:24:43.729 --> 00:24:44.059 Oh. 00:24:44.844 --> 00:24:45.624 So I'm 00:24:46.124 --> 00:24:50.534 Michele: like kind of, I enjoy clicking unsubscribe on things like, so 00:24:50.894 --> 00:24:54.704 Colleen: it's funny because Adam sent out his tailwind update email 00:24:54.704 --> 00:24:56.294 today and it makes me so happy. 00:24:56.564 --> 00:24:59.714 Cause I only get an email from him like once every six months. 00:24:59.744 --> 00:25:03.404 And so I read them cause I, he only sends out product update emails, like 00:25:03.644 --> 00:25:05.114 literally like three times a year. 00:25:05.174 --> 00:25:05.954 And so it's great. 00:25:05.954 --> 00:25:10.308 Whereas all these other places junk every week and I'm sure they're useful. 00:25:10.308 --> 00:25:13.938 That's the thing is I'm not saying their content isn't good, but like, oh my gosh, 00:25:13.938 --> 00:25:18.648 I cannot unsubscribe fast enough, like even harvest, so harvest is a time tracker 00:25:18.648 --> 00:25:22.398 and they started, they, someone on their team was like, oh, let's send out weekly, 00:25:22.718 --> 00:25:24.708 here's how you track your time emails. 00:25:24.708 --> 00:25:26.028 No, they're the worst. 00:25:26.328 --> 00:25:27.588 It makes me so mad. 00:25:28.031 --> 00:25:29.111 Like unsubscribe. 00:25:29.321 --> 00:25:30.401 I know how I spent my time. 00:25:30.401 --> 00:25:31.331 I can go look at it. 00:25:31.541 --> 00:25:31.931 Thank you. 00:25:32.935 --> 00:25:37.875 Michele: Well, sorry, we will put the tailwind email , so like Mathias had 00:25:37.875 --> 00:25:41.265 started forwarding a bunch of his email to Intercom because he was getting so much. 00:25:41.265 --> 00:25:44.355 And so I have really enjoyed unsubscribing him. 00:25:45.360 --> 00:25:48.270 It's all the emails, billions of emails. 00:25:48.300 --> 00:25:49.390 Like he's getting. 00:25:49.426 --> 00:25:52.366 But the, and like usually I just like archive them or unsubscribed when they 00:25:52.366 --> 00:25:54.881 come in the tailwind one I left in there. 00:25:54.881 --> 00:25:55.751 I did not touch it. 00:25:55.751 --> 00:25:57.821 And I did not present subscribe because 00:25:58.571 --> 00:26:01.121 ' Colleen: cause, he only sends them like once every six months. 00:26:01.181 --> 00:26:04.931 And so there actually, we were, you and I were also talking about this last month. 00:26:04.931 --> 00:26:07.901 Whereas signal to noise ratio on your emails. 00:26:07.961 --> 00:26:09.881 I think a weekly email is a terrible idea. 00:26:09.911 --> 00:26:10.421 Michele: Personally. 00:26:10.751 --> 00:26:14.921 Well, we're not going to do that with, I mean, but like, sorry, I guess 00:26:14.921 --> 00:26:16.541 that should be like an opt in thing. 00:26:16.541 --> 00:26:16.721 Right? 00:26:16.721 --> 00:26:19.271 Like people what's my use of that. 00:26:19.421 --> 00:26:19.781 Right. 00:26:19.781 --> 00:26:22.521 Because you don't want the runaway bill. 00:26:22.524 --> 00:26:25.374 I feel like we've gone in a circle kind of, and it's like, okay, so 00:26:25.404 --> 00:26:26.454 w what are we getting out of this? 00:26:26.454 --> 00:26:26.634 Okay. 00:26:26.634 --> 00:26:31.784 So maybe we could be a bit more strict with when there is a failed payment 00:26:31.784 --> 00:26:34.634 of shutting people down sooner, we're sending them a billion emails and 00:26:34.634 --> 00:26:36.464 then we kind of just like, let it go. 00:26:36.561 --> 00:26:38.301 Sometimes we freeze their account. 00:26:38.301 --> 00:26:40.491 Oftentimes freezing their account just means they're limited to 00:26:40.491 --> 00:26:42.891 the free tier, which still means they might not even notice. 00:26:42.891 --> 00:26:46.929 And so maybe that should just be like a full freeze on the account. 00:26:47.050 --> 00:26:48.790 And everything fails. 00:26:48.821 --> 00:26:53.861 But maybe we keep the rest of the model the same. 00:26:53.861 --> 00:26:55.991 Colleen: It feels like low gain to me. 00:26:55.991 --> 00:26:58.751 And you know, your customers better and your business better, 00:26:59.251 --> 00:27:01.081 the marginal improvement. 00:27:01.581 --> 00:27:04.251 I mean that will come, not even improvement. 00:27:04.611 --> 00:27:08.691 The module increase in funds that will come from paying up front, just 00:27:08.691 --> 00:27:12.441 has so many other potential ripple effects for your existing customers. 00:27:12.471 --> 00:27:18.506 And again, if it were me, I do it because $500 is 33% of what I make. 00:27:18.776 --> 00:27:20.876 But for you guys, it's like what? 00:27:21.116 --> 00:27:22.136 Very, very small. 00:27:22.436 --> 00:27:23.606 So it's noise. 00:27:23.966 --> 00:27:26.846 And I'm not saying you should leave money on the table, throw it away. 00:27:26.846 --> 00:27:27.866 That sounds terrible. 00:27:27.866 --> 00:27:31.966 I'm just saying the pain and suffering for you guys to restructure your 00:27:31.966 --> 00:27:36.246 billing program and not even the pain and suffering you have to go through. 00:27:36.246 --> 00:27:38.766 Cause I know you said you already have credits available, so it would probably 00:27:38.766 --> 00:27:42.216 just be, you know, that's the only thing you can use the impact on your 00:27:42.216 --> 00:27:46.326 customers, you have tens of thousands of customers like people are going to notice. 00:27:46.626 --> 00:27:49.836 Yeah, and I don't want to spend the Most of those customers pay on time. 00:27:50.256 --> 00:27:51.396 Michele: So yeah. 00:27:51.706 --> 00:27:53.971 Most people it's no problem. 00:27:54.040 --> 00:27:58.530 But I think, yeah, and I think the, the work involved is really like after 00:27:58.530 --> 00:28:02.250 all the emails have been sent, figuring out, okay, who do we have to shut off? 00:28:02.250 --> 00:28:03.450 Like, should we shut them off? 00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:07.760 And maybe that should, those, all of those billing emails should be like, if 00:28:07.760 --> 00:28:11.990 you don't resolve this within seven days, your account will be frozen and you will 00:28:11.990 --> 00:28:13.910 not be able to download any of your files. 00:28:13.910 --> 00:28:17.030 You will not be able to make any requests like yeah. 00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:19.730 When we were sure this is unintentional, you know, and find a nice way to 00:28:19.730 --> 00:28:20.950 phrase it, but go update your current. 00:28:21.450 --> 00:28:21.810 Yeah. 00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:25.170 And then, so that, that lessens the manual work on our side. 00:28:25.170 --> 00:28:28.590 Colleen: I think you should see how far that gets you and reevaluate. 00:28:28.620 --> 00:28:32.070 But to me, like I said, based on the factors I know about your 00:28:32.070 --> 00:28:36.210 business, that seems like a good step in the right direction and 00:28:36.210 --> 00:28:37.200 just see where that gets you. 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:39.930 And maybe it doesn't get you far enough and you do end up changing 00:28:39.930 --> 00:28:41.430 it, but I wouldn't change everything. 00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:41.550 Right. 00:28:41.550 --> 00:28:41.610 Yeah. 00:28:42.110 --> 00:28:46.790 Michele: Yeah, I am really curious to see what the email looks like 00:28:47.120 --> 00:28:52.880 and what the user experience is if your payment fails from AWS. 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:54.110 Colleen: I'm going to go put a fake credit card in. 00:28:54.360 --> 00:28:56.680 Michele: I was wondering if anyone listening has gotten one 00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.418 of those emails, let us know, like if you could forward it to us. 00:29:00.468 --> 00:29:03.108 That would be really, really interesting. 00:29:03.288 --> 00:29:03.708 Colleen: Okay. 00:29:03.738 --> 00:29:04.698 Here's a question for you? 00:29:04.698 --> 00:29:08.158 So I named cheap, so I just got a new business credit card 00:29:08.158 --> 00:29:09.600 because my number got compromised. 00:29:10.110 --> 00:29:12.300 And so before they. 00:29:12.629 --> 00:29:15.599 They must have tried to run my card before it was due because 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.879 they contacted me via email. 00:29:18.379 --> 00:29:21.019 I think before my bit can, can you even do. 00:29:21.814 --> 00:29:24.244 I'd have to double check the emails, but I feel like Namecheap was like, 00:29:24.394 --> 00:29:27.184 Hey, you have a bill due in seven days and your card is expired. 00:29:27.394 --> 00:29:27.814 Go fix 00:29:27.814 --> 00:29:27.934 Michele: it. 00:29:28.444 --> 00:29:32.644 They can know that like, yeah, like your credit card is from like 20, 20. 00:29:32.644 --> 00:29:35.024 They can see that and send you an email. 00:29:35.024 --> 00:29:36.733 I guess actually that's also, that's interesting. 00:29:36.733 --> 00:29:39.613 That's actually something we could do is I don't think we're checking that right now. 00:29:40.113 --> 00:29:41.553 Let's say it's somebody who yeah. 00:29:41.793 --> 00:29:43.443 Use geocodio five years ago. 00:29:43.443 --> 00:29:46.473 And then for some reason they didn't need it in the intervening 00:29:46.473 --> 00:29:47.793 five years and now they need it. 00:29:48.303 --> 00:29:50.133 That credit card is now expired. 00:29:50.133 --> 00:29:56.478 I don't think we're checking whether the card on file is currently Not expired. 00:29:56.478 --> 00:29:57.078 I don't think. 00:29:57.108 --> 00:29:57.348 Colleen: Okay. 00:29:57.378 --> 00:30:01.038 Let me look at, I'm trying to look at these Namecheap emails to see, and 00:30:01.038 --> 00:30:03.798 Michele: that could be something like, cause I remember when, my old job, when 00:30:03.798 --> 00:30:07.068 I was a product manager, we would like, that was one of the email series I had 00:30:07.068 --> 00:30:13.398 to write out was people who have renewal coming up, but their card has expired. 00:30:13.398 --> 00:30:13.998 Right. 00:30:14.128 --> 00:30:15.168 So that's a good 00:30:15.168 --> 00:30:15.408 Colleen: point. 00:30:15.408 --> 00:30:19.908 They send me an email before they bill me to let me know they're going to bill me. 00:30:19.975 --> 00:30:22.305 But we'll try your D okay. 00:30:22.305 --> 00:30:24.225 So I don't see, I must have deleted the emails. 00:30:24.265 --> 00:30:29.095 I thought I got an email before the card payment failed telling me it was going to 00:30:29.095 --> 00:30:31.105 fail, but again, I'd have to care right. 00:30:31.105 --> 00:30:31.555 To your point. 00:30:31.555 --> 00:30:34.765 That's not going to solve your problem because they're already done. 00:30:34.795 --> 00:30:37.941 Michele: So don't magazine that you don't read anymore. 00:30:38.268 --> 00:30:39.348 And then it's going to fail. 00:30:39.348 --> 00:30:40.608 You're like, oh, good, great. 00:30:41.108 --> 00:30:42.458 Thank you for taking that off my plate. 00:30:42.458 --> 00:30:44.648 They have to actually care about 00:30:44.648 --> 00:30:45.894 Colleen: this are probably not the answer. 00:30:45.895 --> 00:30:46.975 Michele: Yeah, well, okay. 00:30:46.975 --> 00:30:47.875 So I think this is good. 00:30:47.875 --> 00:30:51.415 So be stricter about shutting people off and truly shut them off. 00:30:51.415 --> 00:30:53.605 Have warnings about that in the email series. 00:30:53.670 --> 00:30:55.017 So basically be more automated. 00:30:55.017 --> 00:30:57.417 That's like our solution to everything is be more automated. 00:30:57.417 --> 00:30:57.567 It's a 00:30:57.567 --> 00:30:58.407 Colleen: great solution. 00:30:58.707 --> 00:31:01.197 You're managing to run a multi-million dollar company with two people. 00:31:01.197 --> 00:31:02.307 So I feel like that's a good 00:31:02.307 --> 00:31:05.337 Michele: solution automate all the things, automate everything. 00:31:06.087 --> 00:31:09.866 And then yes, checking, like if somebody uploads a spreadsheet. 00:31:10.366 --> 00:31:14.566 Checking, whether there, I mean maybe just in general, we should be just 00:31:14.566 --> 00:31:16.666 checking whether credit cards are expired. 00:31:16.666 --> 00:31:18.936 And then when somebody goes to the dashboard, which is where, if you're 00:31:18.936 --> 00:31:22.386 an API user, you might go to export your usage, or if you're uploading 00:31:22.386 --> 00:31:25.476 a spreadsheet, checking whether the credit card has expired before 00:31:25.476 --> 00:31:30.066 any new activity takes place and prompting people to update the card. 00:31:30.566 --> 00:31:33.616 Colleen: I feel like that's a good, a step first to take a first 00:31:33.616 --> 00:31:37.006 Michele: step and see how to do nothing, but it's not a blow everything up either. 00:31:37.006 --> 00:31:38.086 It's a, yeah. 00:31:38.086 --> 00:31:39.076 It's incremental. 00:31:39.076 --> 00:31:41.836 Which I think like, you know, a company at this point, like a lot of 00:31:41.836 --> 00:31:47.296 things we do are incremental because there's so many ripple effects of yeah. 00:31:47.566 --> 00:31:50.706 Every decision and you kind of. 00:31:51.206 --> 00:31:55.736 You could go into a tailspin about that or you could enjoy that. 00:31:55.916 --> 00:31:56.360 Right? 00:31:56.360 --> 00:31:56.739 Yeah. 00:31:56.739 --> 00:31:59.559 And that's just kind of part and parcel of it. 00:31:59.619 --> 00:32:02.389 And I kind of, sometimes I wonder if that's why there are, you know, 00:32:02.389 --> 00:32:05.809 serial entrepreneurs who move on to a new business every, you know, 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:09.859 five, eight years, because you know, you get to a certain point and 00:32:09.859 --> 00:32:12.189 your problems are they're not like, what should our product be there? 00:32:12.189 --> 00:32:16.919 They're like boring stuff, like about email and about billing billing. 00:32:17.649 --> 00:32:17.919 Right. 00:32:18.409 --> 00:32:23.049 And you have to like, enjoy, you know, making flow charts about billing flows. 00:32:23.049 --> 00:32:23.589 Like I did. 00:32:23.739 --> 00:32:24.219 Yeah. 00:32:24.549 --> 00:32:25.119 And that's not for 00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:25.599 Colleen: everybody. 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:25.869 Yeah. 00:32:25.899 --> 00:32:27.269 Totally different skill sets. 00:32:27.269 --> 00:32:28.009 So if I had to make a 00:32:28.029 --> 00:32:31.839 Michele: 300 page flow chart like you do in the corporate world, like I just, I 00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:33.279 don't have that kind of energy anymore. 00:32:33.339 --> 00:32:33.639 Yeah. 00:32:34.139 --> 00:32:34.559 All right. 00:32:34.589 --> 00:32:38.489 Well, this has been a successful workshopping of a geocodio problem. 00:32:38.489 --> 00:32:39.089 Colleen: I like it. 00:32:39.089 --> 00:32:40.649 I like to talk about geocodio. 00:32:40.724 --> 00:32:46.724 Michele: Speaking of that survey, so we are still looking for people to take it. 00:32:46.811 --> 00:32:50.321 According to a sample size calculator, I found online, we 00:32:50.321 --> 00:32:52.761 need like 300 people to take it. 00:32:52.761 --> 00:32:58.167 Which is just, I guess, under half of the people who will listen to this. 00:32:58.167 --> 00:32:59.397 On the first day at errors. 00:32:59.427 --> 00:33:03.537 So if half of you go out and take the survey, then I can tell 00:33:03.537 --> 00:33:08.547 potential advertisers that we have a statistically significant survey results. 00:33:08.547 --> 00:33:12.059 When I tell them what our gender and income breakdown. 00:33:12.089 --> 00:33:13.289 Do you want to know that by the way? 00:33:13.289 --> 00:33:14.159 Are you curious? 00:33:14.159 --> 00:33:14.909 I am curious. 00:33:14.939 --> 00:33:15.369 Okay. 00:33:15.439 --> 00:33:18.889 Percentage of listeners who are male versus female. 00:33:18.889 --> 00:33:19.699 What's your guests? 00:33:19.699 --> 00:33:22.039 80 male, 76% male. 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:22.729 Colleen: Oh, nice. 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:23.299 That was close. 00:33:23.362 --> 00:33:24.532 Michele: Work situation. 00:33:24.562 --> 00:33:29.152 What percentage do you think our employee and employee and they have side projects, 00:33:29.152 --> 00:33:31.582 the majority 53%, which is the majority. 00:33:32.422 --> 00:33:32.842 Okay. 00:33:33.172 --> 00:33:35.032 Colleen: Do we have any full-time side project people? 00:33:35.182 --> 00:33:35.872 We do? 00:33:35.902 --> 00:33:39.412 Michele: 26% are full-time on their own, a product or service 00:33:39.412 --> 00:33:43.337 business another small percentage or consulting plus side projects. 00:33:43.337 --> 00:33:47.806 And only a very small percentage are employees with no side projects. 00:33:47.836 --> 00:33:50.086 Also a bunch of people are freelance or consulting. 00:33:50.086 --> 00:33:51.616 Full-time that makes sense. 00:33:51.616 --> 00:33:52.289 That makes sense. 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:56.365 What do you think, percentage of people who were between the ages of 30 and 49, 00:33:56.365 --> 00:33:58.585 Colleen: 85 90? 00:33:58.585 --> 00:33:59.365 Yeah, actually it's 00:33:59.365 --> 00:33:59.875 Michele: 85. 00:33:59.875 --> 00:34:00.265 Nice. 00:34:00.295 --> 00:34:03.025 You know, our audience is really impressive. 00:34:03.385 --> 00:34:03.925 Okay. 00:34:03.984 --> 00:34:04.494 And then 00:34:04.994 --> 00:34:05.744 Colleen: I know our audience. 00:34:05.774 --> 00:34:06.104 Okay. 00:34:06.404 --> 00:34:10.394 Michele: And then what percent does income between a hundred and $200,000 a year? 00:34:10.394 --> 00:34:12.344 70 47. 00:34:12.344 --> 00:34:12.764 Okay. 00:34:12.764 --> 00:34:13.004 Yeah. 00:34:13.004 --> 00:34:13.334 Yeah. 00:34:13.454 --> 00:34:15.534 So, so that's our little survey. 00:34:15.603 --> 00:34:17.133 It's fun, totally anonymous. 00:34:17.133 --> 00:34:18.813 Like it just, yeah, kind 00:34:18.813 --> 00:34:21.513 Colleen: of Michelle, if people want to take the survey, where can they find it? 00:34:21.543 --> 00:34:22.053 So they 00:34:22.053 --> 00:34:25.010 Michele: should go to our Twitter accounts at software social 00:34:25.020 --> 00:34:27.480 pod, and it is our opinion. 00:34:27.980 --> 00:34:28.550 Nice. 00:34:28.580 --> 00:34:32.960 So if everyone, while you're out for your walk right now, you're doing the dishes. 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:34.373 You're out for a run. 00:34:34.673 --> 00:34:37.733 When you finish up with that, if you wouldn't mind moseying over 00:34:37.733 --> 00:34:40.343 to our Twitter account and taking the survey, we would really agree. 00:34:40.843 --> 00:34:41.143 Colleen: Cool. 00:34:41.143 --> 00:34:42.343 You know, we should get swag. 00:34:42.593 --> 00:34:46.043 And then we could send people swag for taking the survey and that'd be super fun. 00:34:46.043 --> 00:34:47.963 Michele: That would be those swag expensive. 00:34:48.023 --> 00:34:50.423 So we would need a lot of advertisers to pay for this. 00:34:50.423 --> 00:34:51.233 Oh, yeah. 00:34:51.713 --> 00:34:54.143 Well, maybe we'll work out those problems on a 00:34:54.643 --> 00:34:55.813 Colleen: that they would just be cool. 00:34:55.813 --> 00:35:00.193 Like people are always sending me swag and I love it, man. 00:35:00.193 --> 00:35:00.943 It's fun. 00:35:01.663 --> 00:35:02.293 You're right though. 00:35:02.293 --> 00:35:04.363 We gotta be big time before we can have swag. 00:35:04.363 --> 00:35:07.423 Someone suggested to me that we should have a software social conference. 00:35:07.423 --> 00:35:09.303 I was like, that's an idea that would be fun. 00:35:09.403 --> 00:35:12.493 I was talking about how, you know, I mean, obviously neither of us have 00:35:12.493 --> 00:35:16.663 the time or energy, but it'd be cool to build a community around this 00:35:18.253 --> 00:35:21.403 Michele: in the survey that we have, like a discord or a slack or 00:35:21.403 --> 00:35:21.943 Colleen: something. 00:35:22.033 --> 00:35:22.603 Yeah. 00:35:22.633 --> 00:35:24.973 It'd be cool to build a community around this, which is, it ended 00:35:24.973 --> 00:35:26.233 up itself a full-time job. 00:35:26.233 --> 00:35:28.183 So neither if I can, neither of us can do that. 00:35:28.183 --> 00:35:30.350 But they were like, oh, maybe she just have a conference where 00:35:30.350 --> 00:35:31.730 you can just all go and hang out. 00:35:31.970 --> 00:35:33.820 It'd be like, I was like, that would be fun. 00:35:33.970 --> 00:35:35.770 You know where it should be Mexico city? 00:35:35.770 --> 00:35:36.280 Yes, 00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:37.290 definitely. 00:35:37.290 --> 00:35:37.860 Where it shouldn't be. 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:38.610 It should be 00:35:39.110 --> 00:35:40.630 Michele: okay for today. 00:35:40.630 --> 00:35:43.240 Everybody who is running their dog is tired. 00:35:43.270 --> 00:35:44.410 They're like, you're doing good. 00:35:44.410 --> 00:35:46.480 The dishes are done at this point. 00:35:47.170 --> 00:35:47.620 All right. 00:35:48.070 --> 00:35:49.720 We will talk to you next week.