hello I'm Carrie Guard and welcome back
hello I'm Kerry Guard and welcome back
hello I'm Carrie Guard and welcome back to Tea Time with Tech Marketing Leaders
Sorry y'all for taking a mini hiatus
last week I had one heck of a chest
infection and zero voice So huge huge
thank you to my podcast sidekick Elijah
Drown for jumping on in and having a
wonderful wonderful wonderful
conversation last week If you haven't
checked it out be sure to head on over
and uh take a listen and he was a great
fillin He was almost I Yeah I'm going to
leave it at that I'm going to leave it
at that for now Uh this week I'm been on
the edge of my seat for this
conversation because I met Arpine at
Cyber Marketing Con um in December it
feels like yesterday and also like ages
ago at
this and I um uh pulled myself together
and approached her and said would you
pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty
pretty pretty please be on my podcast
because this is amazing conversation and
I want to rehash it and she was kind
enough to say yes and we are finally
here and I am stoked is the VP of global
demand gen for threat connect at cyber
marketing con like I said I had the
pleasure of enjoying her talk about
waterfall metrics
Ever since that day I've been obsessed
with marketing decisions based on
regularly updating data And it's so
addicting when you add tracking KPIs to
the mix Well I'll be spilling the tea on
that later Don't you worry Conventions
can be loud over stimulating and full of
sensory overload It's a lot of pressure
Threat connect sponsored rocking
mocktails with sober and cyber at the
latest RSA We are lucky enough to have
learned so much from Jen's mission for
sober networking in a the past episode
of tea time that Arpine is a
well-rounded marketer for a huge
background in journalism So you know she
will be telling great stories just like
our previous guests like John and Mark
and all of those wonderful wonderful
folks So uh so excited for the show
Thank you for being here and thank you
Arpine for joining me Thank you for
having me I'm so excited Yes Oh it's
been we've been this is overdue This is
overdue for sure yet You you said it
right December feels like yesterday and
also feels like forever ago That is
ever forever And it feels like it's just
around the corner again Yes I know I
can't believe it I We need to enjoy
summer for a little bit though That's
true That's true You were just at RSA
Yes Yeah just how I know that this I'm
I'm going on a tangent here folks I'll
bring us back to center Don't panic But
I do have to know because there was so
much chatter It was like very hot
chatter and now it's very quiet again
But are there
any immediate takeaways that were like
some aha moments for you while you were
there Any
surprises Um I wouldn't say there were
any surprises What I what I think is it
gets better and better every year Um so
and by better I mean marketers get more
sophisticated with the way they present
their products in their booth and the
conversations with people get better and
better in terms of um people who are
actually interested to learn about your
products and come to the booth to talk
about what you have to offer versus a
few years ago we were definitely
experiencing people who were just there
for the swag or you know just there to
learn So it definitely feels like buyer
intent is serious in cyber security and
and it's more fun because you have to be
more and more creative to stand out And
um I I did spend the whole time pretty
much in the booth I haven't had a a
chance to walk around a whole lot
because it was so busy which is a good
thing We go there it's been busy and and
that's and that we were That's awesome
It sounds like there's a shift a little
bit in the buyer universe then in terms
of I feel like there's a bit of a a
drought or a cold spell depending on
which weather you prefer Uh in regards
to buyers not wanting to engage at all
and now it seems like maybe they're
popping their heads back in to see
what's going on Have we built trust back
with our buyers It feels like yeah I
think it's it's it's trust I think it's
also the um when you are creative and
personable people want to talk to you uh
people want to talk to people not to
websites or businesses and I think um
many times the booths that you see uh or
just even the sellers they're ready to
have their pitch they don't really care
about what the person's doing and now uh
marketers and and salespeople too in the
boost are getting a little bit more
approachable in asking what do they do
what are their pain points and and
talking to them about something that can
actually help them rather than getting
ready to get their message out and then
wait Um so I think it's that I think the
conversation is just more fun and
personable as well
That's amazing
I I'm trying to turn off my buzzing Um
it looks like you haven't set up any
HomeKit access
Technical difficulty Siri thinks I'm
trying Helpful not helpful dairy Um
I I do think that's what buyers have
been screaming at us for for the last
few years of like that human connection
and wanting to be seen and heard for
what they need and not just pumped
through some sort of sales process like
everybody else So it sounds like we
finally broke through and saying we hear
you and we're doing the thing and now
they're actually showing up to to want
to engage and that's amazing I think the
the people element too sounds like the
sales team how are you working with the
sales team in terms of that Like it
sounds like you're all working together
to move towards that direction
holistically
uh in both you in terms of you both
being in the booth and both of you
having that experience with your buyers
was that a collective effort Yeah it is
absolutely a team effort and I would say
we're very lucky at thread connect
compared to some other companies that
I've worked at with we have a great
relationship with our sales team and
just like we were just talking about
relationship between buyers and
marketers and salespeople has to be
people first product second It's same
between sales and marketing getting to
know each other as as people building
that personal relationship makes it
easier to work together and understand
that we're on the same team Um we
actually have shared goals with the
sales team Um and that helps bring us
closer to and and work on the same um be
on the same page We don't have like in
some companies you could see oh
marketing only is responsible for leads
and then sales is responsible for
pipeline We're actually all responsible
for pipeline equally Uh and we're
measured by pipeline and closed deals Uh
and this is our joint success which
helps bring us as people and as
teammates closer together Um so yeah
we're absolutely collaborative in all of
the go to market strategies that we have
and metrics as well
in terms of aligning on metrics And I
feel like a lot of the times the
fingerpointing sort of happens between
marketing and sales because it's like
who did what and who owns what So it's
great that you're all like okay we're
all responsible for revenue but what
does that mean in terms of what
marketing contributes and is being held
accountable to versus sales Or is it
just at the end of the day however the
however the revenue got there teamwork
makes the dream work We're all in this
together sort of thing Is it is it one
or the other A bit of both How are you
sort of taking accountability for as
each service line to contribute Yeah I
think it's it's more of the latter Um
we're trying to shy away from what some
people would call credit culture So like
who who owns this lead or who generated
this lead Oh it's marketing No it's
sales In reality in a complex B2B sale
there are multiple touches And there is
no sale that happens without a
salesperson's involvement obviously at
this point anyway uh before AI takes
over but right now and there is also
really no sales that happens without
marketing involvement even if marketing
didn't generate the lead there's still a
person that came to the website or maybe
they read some document that the
salesperson sent them Um so all of those
efforts really make a sale happen and
there are always multiple touches
multiple interactions Um so we do look
at it We look at uh what impacted the
sale or the the opportunity what the
touches were if we can track it what the
interactions were but we don't
necessarily say "Oh this is who gets
credit for this deal." Um and I I would
say to the previous question you had
that also helps the team work closer
because we all want the deal to happen
We don't care who gets credit for the
deal because you know we both benefit
from it and we both suffer if the deal
doesn't happen So on our end we want to
make sure that the the opportunities
that we generate are good quality that
the conversations we present to the
sales team are meaningful and they also
want to make sure that they move them
forward and they spend their time most
efficiently um to qualify them to get
additional information and then to work
with us to um help uh drive what what
else they might need in terms of
messaging in terms of collateral so so
the deal help the deal actually closes
but I guess the other thing the ultimate
goal here is to help the customer right
to help the buyer so we want to educate
them we don't want to just sell um and
there are people for whom or companies
for which our products aren't a fit for
various reasons right so we want to make
sure We identify those right people the
ICP of people that we are most likely to
be able to help and then provide them
enough information to uh be helpful and
so that they ultimately move to purchase
and it's a win-win
Yes it's so it's so nice when you put
your customer really at the center of
everything you do makes it so much
easier to like align and come together
when it comes to defining
goals as a company and then having to
ladder up to those as marketing and
sales
How are you working together to say I
this is such a big topic right now
because it feels like directive comes
down from the top of this is our revenue
goal go forth and conquer and it's like
wait a minute um and it sounds like
threat connect is just approaching this
some from such a different
avenue that I think we all would love to
know in terms
of how are the goals being set and then
how are you coming together as marketing
and sales to say we can or cannot meet
those And have you have you run into a
place where you were like
that's that's not possible or are you
part of the conversation How does
setting goals at threat connect work and
how is marketing and sales a part of
that That's the question Yeah that is a
big question And so there is a revenue
goal and there are sales codas and they
are what they are Um uh what we do to
then come off of that is we build this
reverse waterfall what we call it where
um we look at our historical conversion
rates and what I mean by that is we look
at um when we generate a thousand leads
for example how many of them then
convert into an opportunity how many of
those convert into a deal and obviously
there are stages in between then we take
these conversion rates and kind of apply
in reverse to that revenue goal and to
say if we do absolutely exactly what we
did last year where is it going to land
us Like where how many leads do we need
to generate with these same conversion
rates to get to this revenue goal And
then is it realistic or not And
sometimes we do find that it's actually
not realistic Um you look at things like
average sale price you know is it
increasing is it decreasing what are the
different factors that might come into
making that goal uh making those targets
a reality Um and then we have a joint
conversation between the sales and
marketing and honestly other people
involved Finance is very much involved
in these discussions as well So we can
determine do we need to actually adjust
our goals because what we're shooting
isn't going to work Do we need
additional budget Because then we need
to generate more We can't do more with
the same resources that we have Do we
need to find some tools to help us be
more efficient so we could actually do
more with less And usually honestly it's
all of the above Um we do have a little
bit of back and forth on goals when we
initially are in the process of setting
them just to come to something that we
can be confident in saying okay it is
possible to reach these goals We want to
grow so it incorporates that growth and
this is what we need to make it happen
And sometimes we also regroup even in
the middle of the year or quarter to say
hey we haven't been meeting goals or
we've been consistently exceeding goals
Why Because I think that it's not just
about the numbers it's the why the
numbers are the way we the way they are
Um did we do something that was very
successful Like we were just talking
about RSA We always have a spike in
pipeline creation around these big trade
shows and that's very obvious We know
okay we went to RSA here it went well
there is a spike there Um but then when
we don't have RSA how do we get how can
we replicate that with other things
Because there's only so many big trade
shows out there Um and and understanding
these contributors to success or not um
is what helps you also adjust the
strategy You can't just set the goal and
go for it the whole year You have to
adapt throughout the year things are
changing very quickly and not just with
your marketing with the world that there
are external factors that affect it too
and so you need to understand all of it
to uh adapt so the goals I would say you
have to look at them constantly weekly
daily very very frequently
do you adjust them so if you don't hit
your numbers in Q1 does that have to
roll into the rest of the year and you
have ground to make up or do you adjust
to say okay we don't think we can hit
this but we think we can still hit this
and you sort of negotiate and compromise
with whatever factors you were sort of
up against in Q1 that aren't panning out
that you you hope to combat a little bit
in Q2 but you can't kind of guarantee
um we don't adjust them in that way we
actually even out the goals throughout
the year even though we know there is
seasonality in place So we would know
sometimes that we wouldn't hit that goal
in let's say you know January or
December because there's holidays and
all that stuff or in the summer in
Europe there is also a lot of downtime
and holiday stuff Sometimes we just know
it and so when we look at the goal line
which could be flat like every week it's
the same and we expect for it to
fluctuate up and down but it's honestly
just harder to build that into the goals
just because of how CRM work You can't
um it it's it's a lot of kind of
downtime to just adjust these these
lines um when the end result would be
the same So it's a good question it
There might be a technology out there
being created that allows to do that
easier but at at this point it would
just take too much time So um we just
consider it but we don't change it So
your goals are just the goals and either
you hit them or you miss them and that
just is what it is Yeah I mean again we
did actually adjust the goals For
example last year we acquired a company
um and that is a whole new business a
whole new product line um different way
to measure things different sales cycles
that we had to adjust Some things just
call for adjusting goals Sure
Um usually it's not common to do that
and usually we still try to hit it Um
unless there is something crazy that we
uncover Um and sometimes there are also
things like people turnover like we
would know oh we lost a rep or somebody
was on PTO all week so you know we
didn't set enough meetings things like
that But um so we know sometimes why we
don't hit it but we do want to still
compensate for it uh for the most part
In terms of I love that you sort of look
at okay what did we do last year And so
in terms of walking into this year with
a baseline I imagine you always want to
sort of try and do a little bit better
than the year before Are you looking at
those conversion rates to figure out how
you can make them better and what what
are you what sort of are some of the
levers that you might be pushing and
pulling to to navigate that Yeah we we
are looking at all of the metrics So we
do want to grow every year and u the
adjustment can come from simply just do
more and then keep conversion rates the
same and then you'll get a better result
and that might work um but it's not
necessarily the most efficient So we
look at then where do we need to uh
increase conversion rates and we look at
some benchmarks of our historical data
as well as talking to peers and cyber
marketing society and just in general
other people in the network Um
best-in-class conversion rates what what
do they look like What are ours what are
ours like and where is this somewhere in
between where we want to be Um and then
setting conversion rate goals as well
where we could improve them Um it's
interesting
because the other kind of exercise that
you can do or other marketers can do is
um a very sciencelike process where you
just come up with a bunch of hypotheses
like if you're not meeting a goal or if
you're trying to increase a particular
number like you know let's say your
conversion rate from opportunity
to whatever the next stage is evaluation
is low Why could that be And you just
literally write down all these possible
reasons like from the pricing is too
high to people don't like the product to
some external factors happened and
people don't buy anymore Writing it all
down actually is a a fun exercise on its
own because oftentimes when you don't do
that you just have make one assumption
and you just stick to it and or say well
it's probably because of this thing Um
so when you write them all down then you
can say is this actually true for us And
there might be ways to prove that You
might be able to run some reports to say
you know what it is true Uh or we've
just checked it and it's not Um and uh
and then you eventually will come to a
conclusion or a couple of of reasons
that are actually true and you can work
to fix those reasons rather than doing
everything like um rather than trying to
come up with a solution trying to
diagnose a problem and
then once you do that it's easier to set
the actions to fix it
in terms of the conversion rates that
you're looking at are and you're
waterfalling them backwards Um is that
what are the in like are you looking at
it really tight like s you know closed
SQL MQL lead are you or is it more broad
What sort of are those metrics that
you're mapping back to and how far back
are you going all the way back to an
impression
Um we're just starting with a lead um
which is essentially a person um and
then um and then everything else we call
them a more traditional names like SAL
SQL opportunity etc Um but the
definitions are actually a little
different because we are accountbased So
our first um after the lead it's a
meeting which we call SAL but it's
actually a scheduled meeting with
someone at the company or it could be
multiple people at the company but it is
on the account level um and then that
meeting could be great and then it
becomes a sales qualified opportunity or
it could be bad for different reasons Um
so then after that we do have some
stages like demo evaluation PC
negotiation etc Um within the
opportunity um within the sales stages
of the opportunity it's it's managed So
we do look at conversion rates from
stage to stage We do have tight
definitions of what those stages are I
got to say realistically you always have
some gray areas Sometimes sales rep
forgets to update Salesforce and then
all of a sudden you see hey something
came from SQL to close in 5 days That's
record timing but that's just because
they haven't been updating it Um
especially with the acquisition it
happened like there were a lot of these
old deals that kind of moved over and it
um skewed our numbers a little bit And
in this case you just have to apply
filters so that you're not completely um
looking at crazy data and using it to
make Yeah Yeah That Okay so that makes
sense And you're accountbased which is
interesting In terms of a lead what is a
lead mean You said it's a person So it's
just somebody that ends up in your in
your CRM and then you figure out where
to put them essentially Is that what
your your very my very terrible loose
interpretation is of what you define as
a lead Yeah we have a few categories of
leads um or what we call leads We're not
super focused on leads as a primary KPI
We use it as more like a leading
indicator of um what we're doing but um
there is the the first category of leads
which we call them P1s for lack of a
better term And these are people who are
saying,"I want to talk to your sales
team or I want a demo of your product."
So they're coming to us and they're
actually telling us that this is what
they want to see Um usually there is a
ton of stuff that happened before they
became such a lead They've done a bunch
of research on their own They could have
joined our events in the past Um but
those are the best you know the best
leads that we that we have Uh the second
tier are people who are interacting with
our stuff but not necessarily telling us
that they want to talk to someone So
there is kind of like this um firstparty
intent So they might be downloading a
piece of content on our website They
might have stopped by our booth at a
trade show and talked to us but again
didn't tell us they want to follow up Um
and they are usually uh it's great to
have them they are still getting
nurtured They're still getting touched
and there might be they might become
this top priority lead Um when you reach
out to them they say actually yes I do
want to talk to a salesperson but we
don't expect that high of a conversion
rate from those And then the last
category are just this um third-party
intent and those are people that we we
haven't really interacted with or we
don't know if they've interacted with us
or not For example we went to an event
and as part of our sponsorship they
provided us with a list Okay Well these
people on the list could have heard
about us could have stopped by our booth
or maybe they just had nothing to do
with us whatsoever So those we don't
really categorize as as P1 P2 We just
call them P3 Again very very simple
terms nothing uh sophisticated there Um
but those are just lists that we
typically don't have any people follow
up unless they monitor them and they
watch a few spikes Oh like there's more
activity Maybe I should reach out to
them or maybe I should build out that
account Um and we do some automated
follow-up emails to those types of
people So we do call them all leads but
they're actually not leads even in our
CRM Um but they are just people who did
something and one person could be a lead
multiple times If they did something and
then like they went to an event and then
nothing happened after and then a couple
months later they came in and they said
they want a demo they are again a lead
because they did something else
It sounds like the demo was really that
first initial indicator that this is a
real potential buyer Those are the best
ones Yeah for sure Is that is that sort
of your barometer of if things are going
well and up you know we talked about
leading indicators
um and let so let's define some of those
first First of all there's all types of
different ways to talk about data right
So yes
little rapid fire here I'm going to
steal out of the Elijah playbook
Let's just I'm just going to give you
some key some words that we all sort of
recognize but I want to know what your
very quick definition is off top of your
head Oh Uh oh No pressure No pressure No
no no We're just going to give people a
little bit of a um you know because
every all these words mean something a
little bit different to everybody So we
just want to get a baseline of what they
mean to you Okay Okay Um goals
um targets that you have to
reach KPIs
um numbers you look at to determine if
you're successful in whatever it is that
you're trying to
do Leading
indicators Uh also numbers that might
suggest that you may or may not be
successful and need to dive deeper to
determine what's going on to help reach
those
goals
Um data
Oh that's a tough one There's you can't
have a quick quick answer to that Uh
it's it's h you got me there Um it's
it's really everything And it could be
numbers It could be data about your
prospects and your customers Um it could
be your activity It's it's actually
everything that you do and use to to
to operate really You can't you can't do
it without data Um so it is a hard one
to define quickly I think Yeah No that's
great because there's also qualitative
which you sort of leaned on which
is what qualitative data is What's that
mean to
you Um qualitative data it's good good
data the one that you can actually use
to make decisions
um versus quant quantitative and that's
pure numbers Um so qualitative could be
also um anecdotal and that's that's okay
Anecdotal doesn't mean bad
I like that I like that So in terms of
the in separating some of these things
we've mentioned a lot of the different
types of data that you measure Let's
bucket them So what would you consider a
goal in terms of some of the metrics we
we mentioned metrics is probably another
good word too Yeah So for us it is for
Thread Connect specifically it is a
pipeline goal and a revenue goal Um and
that's the primary goal and then I guess
we do have some secondary
goals that are focused on opportunity
sales qualified opportunity meetings and
and leads Um so and so those aren't KPIs
those are actual goals Those are goals
that could be KPIs or leading indicators
but they are where we're trying to be
with those numbers Okay So goals are the
number and that you have to hit Yeah
This is the thing and we got to get
there Yeah Exactly Okay And then in
terms of KPIs you're looking you
mentioned some of them in terms of the
meeting set and those sort of things So
those are the how so how's the KPI
different than the goal then and how you
look at how you're performing on a
regular basis How are you using these
things differently There are some that
we're looking at all the time I look at
them every day But as a business as a
group of um we have a meeting every week
and we look at those KPIs which is what
I mentioned pipeline um SQLs which are
actually salesqualified opportunities
um and revenue and and this is kind of a
a joint broad meeting um and then the
leading indicators that also have goals
If we're not meeting a particular goal
in a KPI then we would dive deeper to
try and understand why And that's where
those leading indicators come to play
And some of them we measure very
regularly Like leads is a simple one We
measure them We don't necessarily talk
about them every week but we talk about
them when it matters or when it's
important or when it tells a good story
Um there are some that we don't measure
and look at every week We only look at
it we have an ability to measure it but
only look at it when we need to do an
even deeper dive into why something is
happening or not happening And those
could be your impressions and clicks and
open rates and um you know we don't
necessarily talk about them with broader
with CRO and CFO um groups but sometimes
it is important and and so we have a way
to measure it and we look at it when
it's needed Now I'm sure my digital
marketing manager looks at clicks and
impressions every day as well because
that's her life I don't necessarily do
that but we have a way to to get it if
we need it as an indicator
Does each part of your team depending on
their role and responsibility have
different KPIs that they're trying to
hit knowing that it's going to ladder up
to the broader KPIs and goals or is it
just everybody's getting after revenue
um our KPIs are joint but then each
functional um leader creates their own
objectives that they can directly
control that contribute to those um
joint KPIs So for example if we're
talking about digital marketing it could
be something about specifically pipeline
that's generated from digital marketing
efforts If we're talking about events it
could be pipeline generated from events
but then also the what contributes to
that is attendance registration rates
things like that So um you do end up
taking this joint goal and then
trickling down to all of those things
that make that goal um a reality that
distributes across different functional
areas
Let's talk about attribution for a
second because that makes that very
interesting in terms of
again not try you know ownership right
so if you're saying digital marketing is
responsible for you know a certain
amount of pipeline that they have to
sort of back into does it matter that
somebody else how's attribution play
into the multiple touch points and who
gets credit for what so to speak
h yeah we we attribution is tricky key
and
we do have attribution We look at it um
but we we don't look at just the one um
layer of it because we have first touch
and last touch Um and that just helps us
we actually rarely even bring it outside
of marketing um it just helps us
determine which campaigns help get
people into the system or start
educating them versus push them through
that line of um becoming in a pipeline
And honestly you do see a lot of these
demo requests in last touch because
that's what it takes for them to become
interested And then as first touch
oftentimes you see things like events or
webinars or content downloads things
like that Um so you can't only look at
last touch or first touch and say this
is what your primary thing is that takes
the credit Um because that demo request
could have not happened if six months
before that they didn't come to an event
and talk to your um team at the booth Um
so we do look at all of these um and
then we also look at what happened even
after the opportunity was created So we
call it influence Um and that is a whole
other metric um a whole other
attribution metric that again shows the
effectiveness of your campaigns and
efforts
um so that you don't you know dismiss
some of the things that are very
important in making the deal close but
doesn't show up necessarily as that last
touch as such is very common but I think
it's a mistake to only look at that one
thing Um because you can cut back
especially if you use that to make
decisions you can cut back on activities
that um that really directly contribute
to your opportunity creation if you're
only looking at one um layer of it
It really is because there's to your
point earlier about having so many touch
points to get somebody even to a lead or
to a meeting
that it would be I I think that's why we
sort of ended up in this world where we
abandoned the the brand ship so to speak
because we weren't thinking about the
bigger picture and it was became all
performance-based and now our pipeline
dries up and we wonder why and it's
because we haven't been doing the top of
the funnel and looking at that initial
touch point to begin with in terms of
brand and you sort of mentioned this um
uh I can't remember if it was before or
after uh we started going live
but in terms of brand and how you're
measuring brand
impact There is a shift happening right
now where people are going "Oh right We
need to be doing brand and we need to be
always on and we need to have a
consistent presence and we should really
get on that." But there's still the
question that comes back of but how do
we know it's working And I and I think
people are still really weary to sort of
jump on the brand bandwagon so to speak
because they are afraid to put money
behind it because they still can't quite
understand if it is or isn't working So
how are you thinking about are you are
you doing brand and if so how are you
measuring its impact
Yeah So I think brand and demand genen
are inseparable in a way and you can
make a case to say when you think of
demand genen there is demand generation
and then there's demand capture where
you know demand generation is you're
trying to get people to learn about you
and come to you And then demand capture
is you're trying to find people that are
looking for something you can offer and
then kind of grab them capture them and
and uh and send them your way or your
sales team's way So that demand
generation component of it is actually
brand is making sure that people know
about your company that they know what
you do um that they know how it can
potentially help their pain points There
is a lot of um research that goes into
that piece whether you call it brand or
you call it you know demand generation
um and there are some differences
obviously but it it is so close um tied
together um it is hard to measure um to
be honest
uh which is where you take those you you
come up with goals and I think that's
where actually qualitative and
quantitative ative um can play a role
separately because sometimes you do have
to get some anecdotal data to rely on
Like a simple example of that is putting
a field on your form that says how did
you hear about us very old school but
you hear a lot of marketers are bringing
it back because as much as you're trying
to track where they really heard about
you and track their cookies and get the
UTM set up correctly there are still
people that are browsing privately
especially in cyber security And so you
have these demo requests you actually
have no idea where they came from Um and
then that how did you hear about us is
where it actually helps And sometimes
people will say it's you know heard it
from a friend or did an online search Um
and that is hard to um that is hard to
justify but that's the data you have and
so that's what you have to use Um and
then another way to measure your brand
impact is surveying your uh database Um
it's a simple one and even if you didn't
have that data before just saying like
we did a survey recently and as part of
it we just ask how often do you hear
about thread connect it all the time I
almost never hear it I only hear it when
I look for you uh or you know this is
the first time I'm even hearing you and
that is a good indicator of saying like
is you are your brand your awareness
efforts working do people actually hear
it because you can't really measure
measure it Um and then the last example
I'm going to give is related to
accountbased marketing and ICP So you
can determine here's your ICP And some
accountbased platforms actually do a
good job at measuring where they are in
that buying cycle And they call it um
for example aware unaware
um or you know engaged So like unaware
is they don't know about you at all
Aware is they kind of know about you but
they're not actively talking and then
engaged is they're actively talking or
browsing or researching and then you can
measure okay this is let's say your ICP
is a thousand accounts and of them 500
people or 500 companies are unaware then
you try to measure okay I want to get
that number to 400 I want to make them
more aware so there are ways to set
those goals it is tricky which is why
you have to do it in advance you have to
determine what it is that you want to
measure and that you have a way to
measure measure it rather than just
doing stuff and then looking back and
saying "Wait did it actually work?"
Yes the lagging indicators which is one
where we didn't get to but that's
exactly what you're describing One of my
favorite um indicators is a branded
search volume but it is a bit of a
lagging indicator because if you're
looking at are more people searching for
you that means that your brand awareness
is going up but it's after the fact
versus understanding what's happening in
market now So that's um such a great
point in terms of so three great ways to
be measuring brand and goay was on our
on our podcast a few weeks ago and she
mentioned that lovely little form fill
and the importance of having that to see
how people found you Last question I
could go on for days I could talk to you
forever but I want to be cognizant of
your time So last question is had did
you have any funny like did you have any
surprise form fills where you were
like you know that's interesting or
didn't see that coming I um sometimes
people write novels in there Was there
any surprises in terms of attribution
that you didn't see sort of coming of
how people found you
Um not the funny kind but actually what
surprised me is when I saw the UTM
matched what the people put in there
because I expected a much higher
discrepancy and then I'm like "Oh that
UTM says Google and they said online
search that tracks." So that was kind of
cool So that was actually a surprise for
me And we actually have a quite high
percentage of those matches on those
form fills But it is also relatively
recent for us So we don't have a ton of
data to look at it But from what I've
seen that was funny enough that was the
surprise
It's always nice when the technology
does what it's supposed to do Exactly Uh
that your the data is only as good as
what's being tracked and being tracked
well So yes Yes Exactly Uh and branded
search is an interesting category of its
own There's a lot of discussions online
about should you do it should you just
kill your branded Google ads because if
you are SEO is great people will find
you anyway And I don't know there are so
many opinions Um I just feel like it's
you know if if you're doing it and it
works for you killing it might risk it
right Like maybe they'll find you maybe
they won't Maybe they will maybe you're
on the first page and they will still
click on the sponsored ad that your
competitor is doing bidding on your name
So then do you hurt yourself or not So
I'm actually not opposed to branded
search I think it is a good indicator Um
and it's good to uh it's good to have it
Yeah from a paid perspective I do think
especially in cyber you do need to bid
on your own brand of terms I know it
feels very painful because of all that
gorgeous SEO work you did to rank for
all those branded and non-branded
keywords and then here you are paying
for them It feels so counterintuitive
But with the way that search is moving
in relation to AI and
LLMs and how people are getting to your
name these days more competitors are
going to start bidding It is literally
becoming a strategy that you bid on
competitor keywords because non-branded
keywords are getting eaten up in the LLM
world And so the only way for paid
search to work and to get found is to
know which competitors are showing up in
LLMs and then making sure that you're
bidding on their keywords so that you're
showing up in relation to them So it's a
really great strategy but if you're not
bidding on your keywords I guarantee you
someone else might be So yes for sure to
that And then you can also measure um in
terms of um performance in terms of your
if you're getting brand recognition
search volume impression volume against
your branded keyword both organically
and from a paid perspective to give that
leading indicator of or lagging
indicator rather of are more people in
market for you because you're doing a
good job of building brand So slightly
two different conversations but yes to
both of them I am here for it Like I
said Arpine I could literally hang out
with you I was so h I was so excited to
like I'm gonna ask Arpine on my show
This is really nerve-wracking but I
really would love because I could just
keep asking questions I don't normally
do such rapid fire It's a little bit
more conversational but I just had a lot
of questions So thank you for bearing
with me and answering all of them If
people have more questions like I do and
want to learn more about Threat Connect
and what you do in relation to data and
KPIs and measuring performance where can
they find you Um well LinkedIn Um I I go
through phases on LinkedIn When it's
super busy I post and then uh sorry when
it's super busy I don't post um and
honestly don't check messages that well
but most of the time I am there and I
post occasionally and I do check my
messages and that's probably the best
way to reach me Um if you have any
questions um and then yeah threat
connect website thre threconnect.com we
have some uh great uh chat options as
well as uh demo requests and ways to
contact us And also if you are a
marketer and you have any thoughts about
like what we talked about or any um
anything you think we could improve on
together um definitely reach out I do
want to add one more thing uh because
you mentioned uh we had this talk with
our CMO Charles at cyber marketing uh
conference last year We actually have a
monthly uh session within the cyber
security marketing society where we talk
about funnel metrics and all things that
might be bothering people or that they
just want to vent about in cyber
security demand genen uh through cyber
security marketing society So if if you
are a cyber security marketer and want
to join those sessions um let me know
because I can definitely get you signed
up for that
Oh that's so cool Oh I have the worst
FOMO ever That is amazing Um we will
drop all the links to all the things If
you are a marketer in cyber and you are
not in the cyber marketing society you
should go sign up immediately and then
contact Arpine and tell her you want to
join this thing and and then tell me you
joined that thing so I can be a fly on
the wall and pick your brain Um last
question for you because you are more
than a marketer Uh and we all need a
little joy in our lives right now Spring
is here Summer is weeks away What is
currently bringing you joy outside of
work
Um so two things I want to mention Uh
one thing is my dog Um I absolutely
adore her She is uh a cyber cyber dog
because I adopted her after meeting her
at RSA two years ago Uh so there is a
fun story there Um but I met her there
as a puppy that some booth had puppies
in their booth and I just fell in love
and now she's my dog So she is awesome I
love playing with her and spending time
with her in all kinds of ways Um the
second thing is board games You can see
some of them uh behind me and it is kind
of a nerdy thing but actually a direct
parallel to marketing because just like
you know we have a goal we're trying to
figure out how to get there That's kind
of the same in in board games Um so it
is nice to exercise the brain in the
same way but doing something a little
bit more
fun We love board games don't we Elijah
We had a whole conversation last week
with our previous guest Mark all about
board games because yes they are they
are joy They're absolute absolute joy I
think we're going to have to have like a
a virtual board game pow-wow somehow Yes
It's I've I've been torn between
Dungeons and Dragons and board games So
I I'm torn I want to do it all but uh
we'll have to re bring me in We'll
figure it out We'll figure it out We'll
figure out All right Arpine We're going
to invite you to our next board game
session It's going to be brilliant And
uh I'm so grateful Thank you so much for
joining me If you liked this episode
please like subscribe and share This
episode is brought to you by MKG
Marketing the digital marketing agency
that helps complex brands like cyber
security get found via SEO and digital
ads Hosted by me Carrie Guard CEO and
co-founder of MKG Marketing Music mix
and mastering done by the amazing Elijah
Drown my podcast sidekick And if you'd
like to be a guest DM me I'd love to
have you on Thank you all so much Have a
great day
[Applause]