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Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

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Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

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Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

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things.

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Sam: Hello and welcome
to The 10, 000 Things.

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My name is Sam Ellis.

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I'm Joe Loh.

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And

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Ali: I'm Ali

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Joe: Catramados.

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Today in the show, a long time listener,
Bron, sent us a request which was

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to listen to a podcast, a discussion
between Mia Freeman and Catlin Moran.

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They were talking about boys and
men in the wake of feminism and

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"Are the blokes okay" is the topic
today, Ali, do you want to explain

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a little bit more some of the ideas?

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We were a bit cringe about the
Mamma Mia podcast, but maybe

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we're not the target audience.

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Ali: yeah, so it was an interview
for Catelyn Moran's new book, What

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About Boys, I think was the title,
and and she's obviously written

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some fantastic, you know, feminist
literature over the years, and I think

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what she's really just exploring.

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I mean, this is not without, I mean,
it's been critiqued quite heavily in

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the, the news, her, her take as being
simplistic, but fundamentally what

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she's arguing is everyone is a victim
of the patriarchy, both men and women.

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And historically, the only tools we've had
to fight the patriarchy has been feminism,

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but that has been to the exclusion of men.

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And what tools can men use to fight the
patriarchy that they can identify with?

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Yeah.

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Sam: Yeah.

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And how can we make sure that the...

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generation of boys coming through now
who don't have the context, who don't

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understand what life was like even for
relatively well to do women in the 50s

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or what was life was like before that and
of course even the more recent history

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you know what was possible and okay in
the 90s and noughties and how much that's

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changed and they sort of live in a world
where it is just expected That women

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would be treated with the same respect
that they would expect, for themselves.

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but they are mainly, what Caitlin seems
to be saying is they're mainly hearing the

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message, go girls, go girls, go girls, all
the time, and girls propping each other

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up all the time, which you want to see.

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But they're not feeling like they're
getting any propping up and yeah,

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Ali: she had this really good example
of where you know on social media You

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you know a woman will post a photo
and all of her girlfriends are like,

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Pumping her up and saying like, " Oh, you
look great" and it's such an inclusive

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way now that it's not just restricted
to looking a certain way You can be

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curvier and post that photo or you can
have darker skin and post that photo

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and you've got women championing you.

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And what, what do men do?

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We don't do that for like, you know,
cause the perceived, if you're pumping

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up another man, it's perceived to
be either feminine or gay, which is

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Sam: horrible.

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And the normal thing among blokes,
Joe, is you show love by hanging shit.

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Yeah.

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Joe: Yeah.

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We've discussed that
in an earlier episode.

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we discussed it in an
early episode in youth.

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I remember talking about.

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Getting quite upset with Because

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Sam: I was sensitive.

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Sammy, episode nine or thereabouts.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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'cause I, I

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Joe: mean, I was brought up in a tough
school of getting a lot of shit hung on

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me by my parents and giving a lot of shit
back and then going out into the world.

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But also your mates did it too.

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Yeah.

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But let's not get too
sidetracked the, the.

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The example she used was, imagine an
overweight boy of 13 or something,

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and he just goes, fuck it.

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And posts a photo of himself
in his bathers at the pool.

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Yeah.

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Now would that, yeah.

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Now, if he was a woman or a girl,
potentially, maybe teenage girls aren't as

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supportive as women in their forties, Ali.

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Yeah, true.

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That's true.

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But potentially they'd be like, you look
great, you look amazing, blah, blah, blah.

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But, but that boy would
be ridiculed, you know?

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Yeah.

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or shamed or I look.

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Like, I post photos of myself on
Instagram and I get a bit cringe about

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it myself, like I certainly don't get
comment after comment saying how great I

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look, uh, it's just like a self obsessed
thing that I do, uh, it doesn't matter.

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Yeah, I don't know.

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It doesn't lead to a lot of pumping up
and love and all that kind of stuff.

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I mean, is your experience, Ali, with
social media that you do get that

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kind of pumping up from the girls?

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Absolutely.

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Sam: And Ali, just before you answer
that, I just want to hasten to add,

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for anyone who's not familiar with
Caitlin Moran's work or this latest

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book or the podcast interview she just
did with Mia Friedman on the Mamma Mia

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Network, um, recommend you listen to
it to make more sense of this episode,

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by the way, and we'll link to it.

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But...

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I just want to point out, they're
not just saying boys don't

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get support on social media.

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There's a whole, there's a larger thesis,
but yeah, go on, answer Joe's question.

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Ali: Well, in social media, yeah,
like, I mean, there's usually a bit

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of attention from, in more recent
years, I will qualify, from men.

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You know, you get like them sliding to
your DMs with just little fire emoji or

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whatever and you're like, yeah, cool.

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And then, but, but absolutely the vast
majority of any photo I've ever posted.

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The support has been from other women
and they're like, you look amazing.

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Or you're looking so happy or like,
they're genuinely happy for you.

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And I do absolutely the same
with my girlfriends too.

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And I see them happy or they've
posted a fabulous photo.

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They just, you know, absolutely.

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It's all love.

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, 
Sam: and that's largely the appropriate
thing, you know, you and I, Joe,

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we're not going to rush in to comment
publicly on, on a woman's, um, Selfie.

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Joe: Oh, I might do what Ali said,
like the thirsty dads at Ali's school

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and like slide in and make a comment
and have some angle, you know.

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Ali: And that's because that's the thing.

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If you, I had, I would have
absolutely no issue telling my

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friend that she's hot and she's this.

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But even if she's married right, but if
you are yeah publicly commenting Oh my

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god, you look so hot on someone else's
wife or like or husband like yeah It is

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why is that perceived to be different?

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Why?

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Yeah,

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Joe: but yeah, like I think what Sam
said it wasn't An interview about

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social media, that's just one example.

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It's the visibility of it
that makes it so important.

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Zooming out to the whole thing,
like what are the, what are the

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power dynamics between men and
women, where have we ended up to?

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I found the thing, the interview
a bit condescending because by the

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end they were talking about men as
if they're like quaint little pets,

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like, it wasn't, isn't it cute?

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They have little things that they
talk about and, and I've tried to

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think about, are men all right?

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Are boys all right?

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What are, what are they into?

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Sam: It's funny to get.

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It's funny to get stoned and um,
uh, look at, look at my husband's

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balls and just admire how strange
and odd and just validate them

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and I'm like, that's kind of nice.

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It was a mixture of ... That slightly
condescending, but there was a

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certain intimacy and respect in it.

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Yeah, I didn't mind it, but it was
odd to get a pat on the head as a

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Joe: bloke, it felt like.

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50ish year old feminists.

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Yeah, there's a very...

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They've reached a point of feminism...

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They're both very successful.

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Sure, being feminists.

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And they've reached a point of
feminism where they basically look in

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a condescending way at men as like poor
creatures with no idea in the world.

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Ali: I don't know that, because ... I
can't say I'm Mia Friedman's

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biggest fan, but, but she was,

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her take was similar to mine in that
she's got a boy the same age as I do.

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And like the, while it's different.

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In the context of say, you know, a
man that you're dating or that you're

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married to, it's what are we doing with
our boys,  how are they going to cope,

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and I think that was primarily like,
what am I doing for my son that I'm

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not doing, you know, although I'm not
doing for my son, that I'm doing for my

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daughter, or why does my son feel this
way, but my, my daughter doesn't, and

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that Certainly what I took from that in
that, you know, I have a boy this age

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who is sensitive to these things and, you
know, and the impact that it has on him.

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And I actually did talk to him
about it afterwards and, you know,

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and got his take and yeah, it's,
it's really interesting like that.

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Yeah, I don't, I don't
think it's necessarily.

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Yeah, just poor men.

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These are people we love and care about,
not just as partners, but as children.

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So,

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Joe: so imagine if you had a movement
called feminism to respond to incredible

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entrenched misogyny and sexism, but
then you had a generation come through

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after some of the biggest wins in
feminism, so people under the age of 20.

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As Sam said before, imagine if you didn't
see the Chico roll, Chico roll commercials

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in the 80s in the fish and chip shop
and women sexualized in that way, not

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in a positive way, just as objects

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Sam: for men.

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Or, or, or female teachers in
the 70s striking for equal pay.

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Like it's so, it's so recent.

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It's quite, yeah.

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But on another level, that's ancient

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Joe: history.

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If you have no lived experience of that,
and all you see is this girl power stuff.

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Yeah.

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It seems ridiculous on the
face of it to respond to that.

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with some kind of like, men ism or
something, response to feminism.

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I don't think we need that.

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and I do wonder, like,

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men still have the things that they're
into, like sport and ways to show courage

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and bravery and violence and there's a
whole lot of stuff that maybe Catlin and

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Mia don't see that I can see as a man.

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When I look at younger,
I'll give you an example.

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I was down in Port Melbourne yesterday,
just cruising around for a walk, and

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these two young teenage boys came down
and it's freezing cold, this freezing

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cold wind, and they whipped their shirts
off, and put some shorts on, and just

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jumped off the pier into the freezing
cold water, and they got back up, and

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I was like, How's the water, boys?

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They're like, Oh yeah, it was good,
we're gonna go for a swim in the freezing

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cold water, and I, I looked at them
and I thought, That's the kind of shit

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that teenage boys are doing, like...

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They're maybe not posting it
on social media, but there's a

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lot of rites of passage stuff
that you understand as a man.

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That I think is probably still happening,
but it might not just be happening in the

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gaze of a 50 year old feminist, right?

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Ali: Yes, it's possible, but like, I
mean, they sort of, they did touch on,

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Oh, men are still the beneficiaries
of the patriarchy while they're

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simultaneously also victims of it.

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So they do have a certain
amount of privilege.

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Like you said, it's the
world's tiniest violin.

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How can you feel sorry for, you know,
People who are benefiting from this

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system, but they're also simultaneously
acknowledging that there are parts of

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it that are negatively affecting them.

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And we need tools to fight those things.

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Sam: That's yeah, that's right.

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And Caitlin's not just making, I mean,
look, my number one criticism of the

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book, um, not having read it, but just
based on what she's saying that the

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central element of the thesis is the
critique is operating at the level of

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discourse, mainly, but she does quote
statistics about how men and boys, um,

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fare more poorly in certain areas and
the statistics are like quite Persuasive,

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when you set them out a certain way,
and I'm not saying I doubt that case.

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Like, uh,

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Joe: university degrees, uh,

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Ali: victims of violence,

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Sam: suicide rates,

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Joe: incarceration, suicide.

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Yeah, that's good.

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That's concrete stuff.

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I think that's, I think we should
try and get into a bit of the

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meat of that a bit as well.

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Sam: And there's another one which
she didn't quote because it does

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vary a lot between countries, but
workforce participation for men

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is now lower than it is for women.

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Yeah, and that is a very serious...

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So

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Joe: can we declare victory
for feminism at this

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Sam: point?

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Uh, no, because, yeah, but, but

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Joe: it's...

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Men still tend to control boardrooms.

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Yes.

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Political positions and control.

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The gender pay gap is very real.

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Pretty much control
all the weapons of mass

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Sam: destruction in the world.

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This is why I was, I was disappointed
that Caitlin mainly focused at...

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The level of doing a discourse
analysis, and she's basically saying

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the discourse has been a bit one sided
and it has produced a reactionary

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politics, uh, at the level of
discourse, and maybe also it's...

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Sorry, can

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Joe: you define discourse?

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I don't really know what you mean.

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Okay, so Marxists

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Sam: are more interested in
economics and who owns what

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and class and all that stuff,

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and if we do an analysis of,
gender in terms of wealth...

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What are we going to find, and
it's going to vary a lot by age

00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:03.210
and by country and the rest of it.

00:12:03.510 --> 00:12:04.640
So that's the main thing.

00:12:05.380 --> 00:12:10.010
If we're talking seriously about equality,
that's the stuff a Marxist would tend

00:12:10.010 --> 00:12:12.930
to say we should be looking at, and we
should be looking at life expectancy,

00:12:12.930 --> 00:12:17.230
and we should be looking at physical,
concrete measures,   discourse analysis

00:12:17.290 --> 00:12:20.370
is looking at what people are saying.

00:12:21.110 --> 00:12:24.700
And so in cultural studies at uni,  I
learned how to do discourse analysis.

00:12:25.610 --> 00:12:30.540
I did a literature major, so I learned
how to analyze books for their ideological

00:12:30.570 --> 00:12:36.430
and artistic content, and then criticize
that according to various criteria.

00:12:36.586 --> 00:12:40.056
And in cultural studies I learned
things like psychoanalysis, and how

00:12:40.056 --> 00:12:43.246
to talk about architecture, and space,
and gender, and how to talk about

00:12:43.836 --> 00:12:45.766
relations of power within discourse.

00:12:46.196 --> 00:12:47.806
But then in anthropology I learned...

00:12:48.050 --> 00:12:53.226
more bread and butter stuff as well,
like economics and family systems.

00:12:53.286 --> 00:12:56.766
And so I learned a whole
bunch of tools of analysis.

00:12:57.126 --> 00:13:01.263
So I'm at a bit of an advantage relative
to Caitlyn Moran, who's I mean, she's

00:13:01.268 --> 00:13:02.793
a professional comedian and writer.

00:13:02.883 --> 00:13:03.033
Yeah.

00:13:03.363 --> 00:13:04.738
Um, and she's, she dropped outta school

00:13:04.738 --> 00:13:09.298
Ali: at like 13 to, I wrote a novel and
then went working for, uh, that's right.

00:13:09.748 --> 00:13:10.198
Nme, like, yeah.

00:13:10.198 --> 00:13:10.608
She, yeah.

00:13:10.608 --> 00:13:10.888
Yeah.

00:13:10.888 --> 00:13:10.928
She,

00:13:11.128 --> 00:13:13.198
Sam: so I would write writer, I would
write a slightly different book,

00:13:13.198 --> 00:13:15.608
but I, I still think her book's a
reasonable contribution to make.

00:13:16.468 --> 00:13:19.048
And she's come at it from a very
personal angle, which is just to

00:13:19.048 --> 00:13:22.128
notice that the way boys and girls
are talked about is so very different.

00:13:22.278 --> 00:13:25.248
And I think that is a
useful unit of analysis.

00:13:25.248 --> 00:13:29.318
The discourse on gender is very
visible and audible at the moment.

00:13:29.508 --> 00:13:30.778
So that's a good place to start.

00:13:31.198 --> 00:13:35.898
But it's possible to lose track of a
couple of things, which is some of the

00:13:35.898 --> 00:13:42.028
advantage that some men still greatly
possess, but a growing number...

00:13:43.313 --> 00:13:48.333
An increasingly large cohort of men that
are economically disadvantaged, and so

00:13:48.333 --> 00:13:50.003
that's getting lost in the conversation.

00:13:50.533 --> 00:13:55.393
And so, yes, there are still more
men in the top, but it's a curve.

00:13:55.803 --> 00:14:00.953
The way that the highest advantage and
highest disadvantage is distributed

00:14:01.863 --> 00:14:07.034
on a number of measures, including
income, wealth, and career performance

00:14:07.184 --> 00:14:11.914
and educational performance and just
raw intellect, you get more men in

00:14:11.914 --> 00:14:15.764
the high end and more men in the
low end, and the curve for, women.

00:14:16.169 --> 00:14:18.479
Quote unquote is a bit flatter.

00:14:18.989 --> 00:14:20.939
So basically it's got a higher middle.

00:14:20.949 --> 00:14:22.149
Yeah, but in pure

00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:24.669
Joe: economic terms there is
a gender pay gap still, right?

00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:24.989
Yes.

00:14:25.129 --> 00:14:26.039
In most countries.

00:14:26.579 --> 00:14:28.599
Sam: Yes, but you have to
break it down by occupation.

00:14:29.599 --> 00:14:32.559
And yeah, like so it
gets incredibly complex.

00:14:32.569 --> 00:14:32.869
Joe: Why?

00:14:32.899 --> 00:14:34.319
Why can't you just give
me a simple number?

00:14:35.064 --> 00:14:37.834
Sam: Because it's not illustrative of
what's going on in every workplace.

00:14:38.544 --> 00:14:38.824
I just want

00:14:38.834 --> 00:14:39.794
Joe: simple numbers, Sam.

00:14:39.804 --> 00:14:40.544
Well, the problem

00:14:40.544 --> 00:14:44.884
Ali: is, like, that you talk about
careers that women have traditionally

00:14:44.884 --> 00:14:48.354
gravitated towards and those
being underpaid industries, which

00:14:48.434 --> 00:14:49.314
Sam: skews the data.

00:14:49.324 --> 00:14:51.544
Or, women enter an industry...

00:14:52.439 --> 00:14:54.879
And then pay rates within
that industry decline.

00:14:55.009 --> 00:14:59.909
Ali: Or they take time out from work
to have babies so that they pay stalls.

00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:03.409
Or they work part time to be a caregiver.

00:15:03.609 --> 00:15:03.859
But when

00:15:05.309 --> 00:15:08.009
Sam: we talk about the gender
pay gap, we have to include

00:15:08.019 --> 00:15:09.439
a couple of invisible things.

00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:12.829
Capitalism only, cares about money, right?

00:15:13.119 --> 00:15:15.019
And we only measure things
in relation to money.

00:15:15.459 --> 00:15:17.299
And so, what happens when...

00:15:17.694 --> 00:15:20.734
You fail to acknowledge the growing
number of men that are not making

00:15:20.734 --> 00:15:22.324
it into the workforce at all.

00:15:22.764 --> 00:15:26.084
So then that puts the gender pay
gap in a slightly different light.

00:15:26.844 --> 00:15:30.214
So if you bring the men that
are earning zero money into the

00:15:30.214 --> 00:15:31.944
equation, how does it change?

00:15:32.374 --> 00:15:34.374
And obviously you'd have to bring
the women that are earning zero

00:15:34.374 --> 00:15:36.324
money into the equation as well.

00:15:36.774 --> 00:15:41.139
And now in Australia, that's
going to be different to India.

00:15:41.349 --> 00:15:43.579
And that's going to be
different to South America.

00:15:44.209 --> 00:15:46.959
So the global picture is going to
end up being very, very complicated.

00:15:47.319 --> 00:15:52.779
So what inevitably happens is the
media class full of white middle

00:15:52.779 --> 00:15:57.009
class people for the most part tend
to focus on what is visible to them.

00:15:57.599 --> 00:16:00.129
And it's, they're going to
leave out the economic side.

00:16:00.139 --> 00:16:00.469
Which is

00:16:00.469 --> 00:16:01.859
Joe: basically what's on Twitter,

00:16:02.309 --> 00:16:04.599
Sam: what's on Instagram,
what's on Twitter, what's

00:16:04.599 --> 00:16:05.199
Joe: in the papers.

00:16:05.269 --> 00:16:05.639
Okay.

00:16:05.649 --> 00:16:06.669
So can we agree?

00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:08.089
I was being facetious before.

00:16:08.139 --> 00:16:09.009
But feminism...

00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:13.269
is, has, still has gains to make
and it's an unstoppable force.

00:16:13.269 --> 00:16:17.609
Barbie just grossed a million dollars,
like, Ali and her all their mates are

00:16:17.659 --> 00:16:21.019
bigging each other up and they got each
other's backs, like, I'm a bit terrified

00:16:21.019 --> 00:16:23.929
about my teenage daughter and her and her
relationships and whether they have each

00:16:23.929 --> 00:16:27.389
other's backs and the stats would say they
don't and they're undermining each other

00:16:27.389 --> 00:16:31.684
in this horrible depression and blah blah
blah, but the stats go this way and that.

00:16:32.044 --> 00:16:36.974
Whatever, but the vibe, and I think what
Catlin is talking about is basically just

00:16:36.974 --> 00:16:38.724
the vibe, you would call it the discourse.

00:16:39.044 --> 00:16:43.477
The vibe is that boys and men, like
I said, by the end of the discussion,

00:16:43.477 --> 00:16:44.957
it's like, aren't men quaint?

00:16:46.532 --> 00:16:47.152
There was a degree

00:16:47.152 --> 00:16:47.362
Ali: of that.

00:16:47.392 --> 00:16:48.352
There was a little bit of that.

00:16:48.352 --> 00:16:51.762
But I, I, like, she primarily came
from, because she is a feminist

00:16:51.762 --> 00:16:55.122
writer and had written how to
be a woman and how to be a that.

00:16:55.122 --> 00:16:55.432
Yeah.

00:16:55.432 --> 00:16:58.472
And so, you know, and when she was
going on tours for her book tours and

00:16:58.472 --> 00:17:01.162
stuff and realizing, you know, when
she was talking not just at girls

00:17:01.162 --> 00:17:04.072
schools and in front of women, but
like in front of boys as well, that,

00:17:04.112 --> 00:17:06.112
yeah, there was this discourse where.

00:17:06.682 --> 00:17:08.282
You know, what about boys?

00:17:08.342 --> 00:17:09.642
And that's how it's come about.

00:17:09.892 --> 00:17:10.392
So but...

00:17:10.422 --> 00:17:11.242
She's responding

00:17:11.452 --> 00:17:11.952
Sam: to the response.

00:17:12.102 --> 00:17:12.372
Joe: Yeah.

00:17:12.632 --> 00:17:12.852
Basically.

00:17:12.862 --> 00:17:18.049
I think it's, there's some onus on
people, me and Sam's age, actually, to

00:17:18.099 --> 00:17:20.149
provide an alternative that's not Andrew

00:17:20.149 --> 00:17:20.409
Sam: Tate.

00:17:20.439 --> 00:17:21.609
No, it's really true, Jo.

00:17:21.659 --> 00:17:24.859
And I've, there's a dad who's reached
out to me recently, and he said...

00:17:25.639 --> 00:17:30.239
I really feel like people like you and me
need to start posting videos on YouTube,

00:17:30.289 --> 00:17:34.169
like not just to make money, like not
to do that at all as a public service,

00:17:34.169 --> 00:17:36.649
like who's my son going to look up to?

00:17:36.809 --> 00:17:37.069
Yeah.

00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:38.879
And like, it can't come from me.

00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:44.219
Like I need you to say something on there
that I can say here, watch what Sam has

00:17:44.219 --> 00:17:48.778
to say about all this And he's concerned
about the messages they're picking up

00:17:48.858 --> 00:17:50.698
and the lack of alternative voices.

00:17:50.728 --> 00:17:55.168
Ali: Well, that's the thing, yeah, like
it's a bit of a vacuum at the moment and

00:17:55.168 --> 00:17:59.108
like that's where these, yeah, the Taits
and Jordan Petersons are all stepping

00:17:59.108 --> 00:18:04.937
in and rather than having, yeah, like
really visible, positive, Pictures of

00:18:04.937 --> 00:18:06.907
masculinity and what that can look like.

00:18:07.347 --> 00:18:09.977
Joe: Yeah, I think it becomes
about what's forbidden too.

00:18:10.027 --> 00:18:10.337
Yes.

00:18:10.367 --> 00:18:12.017
Because you're always
going to want to rebel.

00:18:12.217 --> 00:18:12.427
Yes.

00:18:12.437 --> 00:18:14.827
So, I'll tell you my little
Jordan Peterson story.

00:18:15.797 --> 00:18:22.117
Maybe five or six years ago, and
Sam would say, remember that I am

00:18:22.387 --> 00:18:28.177
economically fragile, paying child
support, like a couple of, you

00:18:28.177 --> 00:18:32.557
know, like I'm kind of on the edge
all the time of financial disaster.

00:18:32.577 --> 00:18:34.407
Sam: Yeah, no, you're very
much in the precarious.

00:18:34.407 --> 00:18:38.197
Joe: Plus, I'm a straight white guy,
pretty straight down the line, standard

00:18:38.197 --> 00:18:39.957
issue, straight white guy, right?

00:18:40.267 --> 00:18:43.777
So just remember that as context,
and then a guy who you are

00:18:43.787 --> 00:18:46.667
Sam: prime candidate for, uh,
masculinist, fascist discourse.

00:18:46.667 --> 00:18:47.567
Sure, just setting up the

00:18:47.567 --> 00:18:52.757
Joe: context, but like, prime candidate
for some of this alt right stuff, right?

00:18:52.767 --> 00:18:53.187
Very much.

00:18:53.287 --> 00:18:57.167
Even though I was raised very
strict socialist, hard left.

00:18:57.197 --> 00:19:01.810
Sam: Well who's, who do you think is
voting for, what's her name in France?

00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:05.610
It's all the old union
dudes that have all gotten

00:19:05.610 --> 00:19:05.920
Joe: shafted by Macron.

00:19:06.010 --> 00:19:10.080
this story can be illustrative of
how this stuff maybe works in a

00:19:10.090 --> 00:19:11.320
slightly older demographic than teams.

00:19:11.320 --> 00:19:12.310
Marine Le Pen, yeah.

00:19:12.310 --> 00:19:15.360
Because I've never seen an Andrew
Tate video, I really don't want

00:19:15.360 --> 00:19:16.760
to be forced to go and watch one.

00:19:16.760 --> 00:19:17.950
I've read a little bit about

00:19:17.950 --> 00:19:18.000
Sam: it.

00:19:18.010 --> 00:19:19.020
No, don't pollute your brain with that,

00:19:19.370 --> 00:19:19.760
Joe: seriously.

00:19:19.840 --> 00:19:21.860
I don't, I don't really want
to know, like I don't...

00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:22.270
It's yuck.

00:19:22.560 --> 00:19:24.310
hate women, and I don't want to...

00:19:24.750 --> 00:19:26.650
You know, say women are
responsible for rape.

00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:29.680
So that stuff's just way out of
bounds and I'm not interested.

00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:33.330
It sounds upsetting that teenage
boys seem to be interested, but what

00:19:33.330 --> 00:19:37.820
I'm trying to explain is maybe where
some of this reaction comes from and

00:19:37.820 --> 00:19:39.700
this wanting to transgress, right?

00:19:39.800 --> 00:19:40.410
Yeah, sure.

00:19:40.580 --> 00:19:44.014
So this actor guy I work with
in the film industry, he...

00:19:44.245 --> 00:19:48.505
Said to me this is before Jordan
Peterson was really very famous.

00:19:48.775 --> 00:19:52.575
He just had his book out 12 rules for
life He said I've been reading this guy.

00:19:52.585 --> 00:19:56.362
I found him really helpful for my
life And he's someone again straight

00:19:56.362 --> 00:20:00.262
white guy who was working with me as
just a crew guy But probably ideally

00:20:00.262 --> 00:20:01.852
wanted to be a famous actor, right?

00:20:01.892 --> 00:20:06.762
So probably a bit frustrated in life
himself and he since and I didn't know who

00:20:06.762 --> 00:20:11.497
he was and I just started reading his book
and And the book, if you ever read it, is

00:20:11.657 --> 00:20:14.357
pretty uncontroversial, really, like, it's

00:20:14.367 --> 00:20:15.447
Sam: Yeah, he's not
getting stuck into women.

00:20:15.447 --> 00:20:15.897
Joe: It's just like, make your bed.

00:20:15.897 --> 00:20:17.947
I saw it described as,
like, advice to mum.

00:20:17.947 --> 00:20:18.737
That's right, stand up straight.

00:20:18.787 --> 00:20:18.987
Yeah.

00:20:19.377 --> 00:20:22.937
Put your shoulders back, make your bed,
there's other stuff in there, but it's,

00:20:23.097 --> 00:20:24.847
there's nothing too alarming in there.

00:20:24.887 --> 00:20:28.357
Then I could jump on my GripChat
with my old friends from, um...

00:20:28.517 --> 00:20:33.177
I've had since, you know, undergrad, uni
days and I said I started reading this

00:20:33.297 --> 00:20:37.617
Jordan Peterson book and straight away
one of them just attacks me like viciously

00:20:37.617 --> 00:20:43.892
like that's sexist, racist, misogynistic,
homophobic and I'm like It's actually not.

00:20:44.692 --> 00:20:49.022
And then what happens is it drives
me to be like, hang on, hang on, what

00:20:49.022 --> 00:20:51.082
the fuck, I can't read a book now?

00:20:51.582 --> 00:20:52.522
There's a book I can't

00:20:52.522 --> 00:20:52.692
Sam: read?

00:20:52.802 --> 00:20:54.772
Also, they haven't, they
haven't read it at that point.

00:20:54.832 --> 00:20:55.262
They have

00:20:55.262 --> 00:20:57.552
Joe: no idea, like, they have no idea what

00:20:58.002 --> 00:20:58.932
Ali: they're responding to the other

00:20:58.932 --> 00:20:59.822
Joe: stuff that he's all these...

00:21:01.537 --> 00:21:01.987
These things.

00:21:01.997 --> 00:21:04.967
Sam: But they're also responding
to a genuine alarm and like a

00:21:04.967 --> 00:21:08.987
growing number of reports of like
him doing these sellout live shows

00:21:08.987 --> 00:21:10.897
like fairly early after the book.

00:21:10.897 --> 00:21:15.147
Yeah, and after that, whatever, in the
And the audience at his shows were not.

00:21:15.617 --> 00:21:17.237
It wasn't entirely men at first.

00:21:17.287 --> 00:21:19.817
There were loads of women who were on
board with the message and were actually

00:21:19.817 --> 00:21:23.567
recommending the book to their sons and,
you know, male colleagues and so on.

00:21:23.727 --> 00:21:27.567
Joe: Yeah, because if you go on, at
that point, if you went onto YouTube,

00:21:27.567 --> 00:21:32.327
you go back and watch his, his lectures
on psychology, they're brilliant.

00:21:32.377 --> 00:21:32.707
Yeah, yeah.

00:21:32.707 --> 00:21:36.677
And it's like, it's like 200
hours on YouTube of him talking

00:21:36.677 --> 00:21:39.459
about, PRJ and, and all that.

00:21:39.489 --> 00:21:39.949
That's right.

00:21:40.179 --> 00:21:41.999
Like the history of psychology.

00:21:41.999 --> 00:21:42.319
He wasn't that shit.

00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:43.549
And in a way that kind of...

00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:45.540
Hurts your brain as it opens it up.

00:21:45.540 --> 00:21:46.830
It's really good shit.

00:21:46.860 --> 00:21:47.280
Right?

00:21:47.970 --> 00:21:51.390
And then he, he got, he became,
as you've talked about before,

00:21:51.390 --> 00:21:54.360
he started to become what his
audience seemed to want him to be.

00:21:54.365 --> 00:21:54.660
He started

00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:57.030
Sam: responding to part of the largest

00:21:57.030 --> 00:22:00.090
Joe: part of his, but that was a
turning point in my life where I

00:22:00.090 --> 00:22:01.740
was like, oh shit, what do I do?

00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:02.880
Do I stop reading this book?

00:22:03.600 --> 00:22:05.790
And I, instead, I thought, well, fuck you.

00:22:05.790 --> 00:22:07.700
Like fuck, you should
telling me not to read this.

00:22:08.430 --> 00:22:11.760
Because I was somewhat looking, my
dad had been dead for 20 years, I

00:22:11.760 --> 00:22:15.050
didn't have anyone telling me how
to be a man, and Jordan Peterson...

00:22:15.630 --> 00:22:20.480
Is mostly writing for men saying this
is how you be a man and it gets mocked

00:22:20.790 --> 00:22:24.310
with like make your bed and throw
your shoulders back and walk tall.

00:22:24.450 --> 00:22:25.630
You know what's a good thing to do?

00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.130
Make your bed, throw your
shoulders back, walk tall.

00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:31.480
Like that's actually really good advice.

00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:32.990
And for sure.

00:22:32.990 --> 00:22:35.710
If you haven't cleaned your room in
six months, clean your fucking room.

00:22:35.710 --> 00:22:36.320
Have some self

00:22:36.320 --> 00:22:36.500
Sam: respect.

00:22:36.910 --> 00:22:37.840
Have some self respect, yeah.

00:22:38.430 --> 00:22:39.150
Take responsibility.

00:22:39.150 --> 00:22:41.520
Joe: The problem, Sam,
of course, is you take...

00:22:42.235 --> 00:22:45.485
Uh, have some self respect a bit further
and it's like become a fascist, right?

00:22:45.485 --> 00:22:48.465
And you only have to
turn the knob a little

00:22:48.665 --> 00:22:48.775
Ali: bit.

00:22:49.095 --> 00:22:53.835
So, like, my psychologist would say,
like, that even the worst people

00:22:53.885 --> 00:22:55.605
sometimes are capable of good things.

00:22:56.005 --> 00:22:56.455
And...

00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:01.240
The thing is, we're so quick to throw
the baby out with the bathwater, but

00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:06.290
he, yeah, he can still have a few
good and, like I said, practical ideas

00:23:06.290 --> 00:23:09.850
that, you know, people will see value
in and actually find really helpful.

00:23:10.210 --> 00:23:14.170
But it's also worth acknowledging that
all these other things that he said, like

00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:18.820
catering to this particular demographic
or this, you know, subsection of his

00:23:18.840 --> 00:23:24.405
audience, that Yeah, have some deeply
problematic views around women, and

00:23:24.405 --> 00:23:28.885
that's, and like, yes, some people
actually have quite dangerous ideas

00:23:28.885 --> 00:23:31.985
around women, and that's, you know,
obviously more like the Andrew Tate's.

00:23:32.215 --> 00:23:34.615
Joe: Yeah, and there's
been like incel terrorists

00:23:34.615 --> 00:23:35.085
Sam: and stuff, right?

00:23:35.095 --> 00:23:38.275
Yeah, so obviously some of, yeah, that's
right, this is all unfolding, we have

00:23:38.275 --> 00:23:41.575
to remember, this is all unfolding in
the context of, you know, yeah, the

00:23:41.705 --> 00:23:44.624
extremist incel, you know, inciting
each other to commit violence and so

00:23:44.624 --> 00:23:47.914
on, so we have to keep all that in
mind, that of a kind of early stage.

00:23:48.524 --> 00:23:54.634
terrorist movement and that's happening
alongside a number of other sort of very

00:23:54.634 --> 00:23:59.474
major debates including the definition
of gender and you know all of that stuff

00:23:59.514 --> 00:24:03.804
so the general fear and uncertainty and
a flux going on in the discourse as well

00:24:03.804 --> 00:24:08.734
as in legislation and you know of course
marriage legislation and also it's a

00:24:08.734 --> 00:24:12.314
whole pot of stuff that's all going on
at the same time and Peterson comes into

00:24:12.314 --> 00:24:16.061
the middle of that but also Obviously,
some of his audience were looking for,

00:24:16.081 --> 00:24:20.454
including women, who read his books early
on with, and weren't alarmed, necessarily,

00:24:21.124 --> 00:24:26.194
um, were looking for something that
was missing in the popular market.

00:24:26.794 --> 00:24:31.233
Now, you can find decent books
about how to navigate world as a...

00:24:31.974 --> 00:24:33.874
Guy, as a person with a penis, right?

00:24:33.947 --> 00:24:37.867
they've been around for a long time,
but this was the one that captured the

00:24:37.867 --> 00:24:41.837
imagination of a lot of people, and
clearly some of the people who read it

00:24:41.837 --> 00:24:43.377
just needed a little bit of a pick me up.

00:24:43.787 --> 00:24:46.157
And some of the other
people who read it...

00:24:46.702 --> 00:24:53.842
need a lot of therapy and have deep seated
resentment towards essentially towards

00:24:53.842 --> 00:24:58.940
their mother and towards women at large
based on a sense of powerlessness, right?

00:24:59.230 --> 00:25:01.610
So this takes us back to Caitlin Moran.

00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:06.160
And that's what she's saying, that a
lot of these boys are feeling powerless

00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:08.680
and they're feeling despised even.

00:25:08.860 --> 00:25:12.030
And I couldn't put my
finger on, so, so Joe...

00:25:12.050 --> 00:25:12.120
But

00:25:12.130 --> 00:25:15.580
Joe: that's why it's back on us,
Sam, because it's the condescending

00:25:15.580 --> 00:25:19.080
place that Mia and Kaitlyn
are coming from doesn't help.

00:25:19.150 --> 00:25:19.910
It doesn't help boys.

00:25:19.910 --> 00:25:22.780
There's, there's nothing for a 15
year old boy really in that podcast.

00:25:22.810 --> 00:25:23.830
Oh no, see, I'll...

00:25:23.890 --> 00:25:26.860
Whereas, whereas we have a
chance as men to actually be

00:25:26.870 --> 00:25:29.710
like, well, like, we like women.

00:25:29.790 --> 00:25:30.900
We're attracted to women.

00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:31.910
We're friends with women.

00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:32.220
Okay.

00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:33.290
We sleep with women.

00:25:33.320 --> 00:25:34.530
We have children with women.

00:25:35.360 --> 00:25:40.310
This is how we approach respecting women,
and this is how we approach being a man.

00:25:40.320 --> 00:25:44.760
Now, we're not getting it right all the
time, of course, but I think there is...

00:25:45.340 --> 00:25:48.200
Ali: There's still a place, though,
for women to raise the issue, as

00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:52.460
far as, in the context not just of,
yeah, being the partners, but also

00:25:52.510 --> 00:25:53.890
like the mothers of these boys.

00:25:53.890 --> 00:25:56.310
I think it's, you know, they're
well within their rights to say...

00:25:56.990 --> 00:25:58.770
You know, these are people
we care about that we're, and

00:25:59.170 --> 00:26:01.480
Joe: I mean, these are feminists
who are actually worrying about

00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:02.670
the problem of men and boys.

00:26:02.670 --> 00:26:04.970
I would put it to you that most
feminists aren't very concerned with

00:26:04.970 --> 00:26:05.950
the problems of men and boys at all.

00:26:05.990 --> 00:26:07.250
And Caitlyn certainly
has had a lot of the end.

00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:10.220
Aww.

00:26:11.360 --> 00:26:13.930
Sam: Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, look, there
were, there were elements of the, look,

00:26:13.950 --> 00:26:18.779
elements of the, I think, I've got some
stylistic critique, as does, um, Ali.

00:26:18.780 --> 00:26:19.130
Yeah, listen,

00:26:19.340 --> 00:26:21.310
Joe: I mean, let's look
at, most people want...

00:26:21.635 --> 00:26:22.615
Listen to that podcast.

00:26:22.645 --> 00:26:23.955
So it's the ideas we

00:26:23.955 --> 00:26:24.365
Sam: need to focus on.

00:26:25.115 --> 00:26:29.545
I'll give them both a pass on this
conversation because despite like a couple

00:26:29.545 --> 00:26:34.761
of little gripes I have, the essential
thesis is like we can uphold that and

00:26:34.761 --> 00:26:36.781
we can declare it to be somewhat useful.

00:26:37.151 --> 00:26:42.181
And I think also I think it's absolutely
critical that this  opening salvo in what

00:26:42.181 --> 00:26:46.281
will be a long ongoing conversation that
was already happening in an unhealthy

00:26:46.281 --> 00:26:48.281
way, what Caitlin Moran is saying.

00:26:48.566 --> 00:26:52.126
Let's continue the conversation in
a healthier way, and I absolutely

00:26:52.126 --> 00:26:53.736
welcome that with both arms.

00:26:54.196 --> 00:26:58.976
And it's essential that it comes from a
woman who has such a strong track record,

00:26:59.038 --> 00:27:02.818
promoting the interests of women and
girls, to now be publishing this book.

00:27:03.078 --> 00:27:05.778
And it has been viewed as a
betrayal by some, some people

00:27:05.778 --> 00:27:06.778
have called it a cynical...

00:27:07.348 --> 00:27:11.058
Sell out and you know, she's gonna,
she's gonna immediately tack right and

00:27:11.058 --> 00:27:13.328
turn into some kind of guru or whatever.

00:27:13.708 --> 00:27:14.948
I don't believe any of that.

00:27:15.468 --> 00:27:16.568
She's just speaking with

00:27:16.568 --> 00:27:17.508
Joe: It's not even left right.

00:27:17.518 --> 00:27:18.108
It's this No.

00:27:18.168 --> 00:27:19.858
Like you said, it's just
cultural what's on Twitter.

00:27:19.858 --> 00:27:20.798
It's not even left right.

00:27:20.798 --> 00:27:22.048
It's just like, what's the vibe?

00:27:22.048 --> 00:27:22.158
What's in the culture?

00:27:22.168 --> 00:27:22.598
She even says

00:27:22.748 --> 00:27:26.208
Sam: it in the podcast, there
are some easy things we can do.

00:27:27.108 --> 00:27:29.088
Well, she talks about role models, right?

00:27:29.328 --> 00:27:31.798
She says, we don't even, she
even says, we don't even have

00:27:31.798 --> 00:27:33.078
to do this through politics.

00:27:33.078 --> 00:27:34.608
We can just do this through culture.

00:27:34.608 --> 00:27:36.638
And that was very, very revealing.

00:27:36.878 --> 00:27:38.768
This is not a radical platform at all.

00:27:38.968 --> 00:27:42.228
They are just suggesting a
slight change to the discourse.

00:27:43.018 --> 00:27:45.568
They don't want to
actually do anything more

00:27:45.568 --> 00:27:46.128
Joe: radical than that.

00:27:46.138 --> 00:27:49.118
Like, if I, I had to think about
this, like, what are the male role

00:27:49.118 --> 00:27:51.238
models now, if I wanted to give.

00:27:51.408 --> 00:27:53.898
A 15 year old boy, a male role model.

00:27:53.928 --> 00:27:57.418
I would probably actually point to
someone like Pat Cummins, captain of the

00:27:57.418 --> 00:28:01.548
Australian Test cricket team, not only
because he's an amazing cricketer and a

00:28:01.558 --> 00:28:06.568
handsome blue eyed boy, but he's also very
like outspoken on climate change, he's

00:28:07.503 --> 00:28:09.743
Ali: Yeah, but what about, yeah,
like as Sam said, the boys who have

00:28:10.023 --> 00:28:12.253
Joe: absolutely no interest in Sure, but
what about the boys who do play sport?

00:28:12.293 --> 00:28:14.663
Sam: Or David, or David
Pocock for that matter.

00:28:14.713 --> 00:28:15.603
But, but

00:28:15.803 --> 00:28:18.473
Joe: hang on, doing a bit
of what they did, what about

00:28:18.483 --> 00:28:19.883
the boys who do like cricket?

00:28:20.063 --> 00:28:21.323
Can they have role models?

00:28:21.323 --> 00:28:21.863
Of course.

00:28:21.933 --> 00:28:25.283
Then I thought about who is Sam's
role models, for example, and

00:28:25.283 --> 00:28:28.163
the one person you've mentioned
to me actually is Bill Burr.

00:28:29.028 --> 00:28:34.048
And I meet a lot of older guys who
really look up to Bill Burr because the

00:28:34.048 --> 00:28:38.228
work he's been doing is like looking at
some of the contradictions of feminism

00:28:38.268 --> 00:28:41.548
and it's like alright you gotta put
up with all this stuff guys because

00:28:41.548 --> 00:28:45.518
that's where we're at and it's bullshit
and women will get away with all this

00:28:45.518 --> 00:28:49.278
stuff because men want to fuck them and
let's acknowledge that and there's some

00:28:49.278 --> 00:28:51.838
of those risque conversations right?

00:28:51.838 --> 00:28:51.998
Yeah.

00:28:52.233 --> 00:28:57.203
I don't know if I look up to Bill Burr,
but I, like, who would you say are your

00:28:57.203 --> 00:29:01.623
role models, or who would you be pointing
your son in the direction of in five years

00:29:01.623 --> 00:29:01.903
Sam: time?

00:29:02.403 --> 00:29:05.793
So I haven't been listening to Bill for
a few years now, but I'll say that he's

00:29:05.803 --> 00:29:10.823
very, very good on, he's got a lot of
female listeners, his shows are half half,

00:29:11.143 --> 00:29:15.453
he's got listeners from every demographic
basically, and he does well in so called

00:29:15.453 --> 00:29:18.673
red states and so called blue states,
that's one of the things I like about him.

00:29:19.143 --> 00:29:22.158
And He really triangulates a lot of stuff.

00:29:22.288 --> 00:29:23.478
To me, he's a bellwether.

00:29:23.968 --> 00:29:26.158
He's very good on the
contradictions of capitalism.

00:29:26.158 --> 00:29:28.638
He's very good on the
contradictions of basically good

00:29:28.638 --> 00:29:29.938
old fashioned American bullshit.

00:29:29.998 --> 00:29:31.298
Everyone's got opportunity.

00:29:31.328 --> 00:29:35.333
He's like,  he's very good on
critiquing the banks and Wall Street.

00:29:35.333 --> 00:29:36.288
He's very good.

00:29:36.448 --> 00:29:39.178
on the contradictions of the
current gender discourse.

00:29:39.428 --> 00:29:39.808
Yeah, he has

00:29:39.808 --> 00:29:42.998
Ali: a good nuance, it's
a nuanced take, which is

00:29:43.598 --> 00:29:43.988
Sam: rare.

00:29:44.168 --> 00:29:48.538
And basically he upsets white middle class
women, and black women applaud him, so...

00:29:49.053 --> 00:29:49.803
I like that.

00:29:50.283 --> 00:29:51.903
Now, I'll say, I hate to

00:29:51.903 --> 00:29:55.723
Joe: see you happy, Sam, but I
hate it when you got something

00:29:55.933 --> 00:29:57.163
that's just your own thing.

00:29:57.173 --> 00:29:57.653
That's right.

00:29:57.873 --> 00:29:59.633
But the thing that Bill really,
I hate it when you have a

00:30:00.413 --> 00:30:02.933
Sam: podcast, they hate it when you've
got a thing that you're just enjoying

00:30:02.933 --> 00:30:04.273
doing and it's nothing to do with them.

00:30:04.283 --> 00:30:05.163
Yeah, that's right.

00:30:05.503 --> 00:30:06.383
Um, so Bill,

00:30:06.443 --> 00:30:07.743
Joe: Bill, I can't say that.

00:30:07.773 --> 00:30:09.053
No, Bill can say that.

00:30:09.053 --> 00:30:09.493
I'd be

00:30:09.493 --> 00:30:10.443
Sam: scared to say that.

00:30:10.623 --> 00:30:13.293
But if I had a wife,
you know, that's true.

00:30:13.303 --> 00:30:13.643
That's true.

00:30:13.643 --> 00:30:15.863
And you should be, but
he, but he makes a point.

00:30:15.873 --> 00:30:16.943
He makes a lot of good points.

00:30:17.043 --> 00:30:19.663
Uh, and he acknowledges
the failings that men have.

00:30:19.663 --> 00:30:19.963
Right.

00:30:20.473 --> 00:30:24.403
But the best thing on his podcast
was the agony art section he does on

00:30:24.413 --> 00:30:30.063
the, on the Thursday show, I think,
where he'll answer an email, uh, or

00:30:30.073 --> 00:30:33.773
maybe even a few from women that are
in pain, from men that are in pain.

00:30:33.773 --> 00:30:39.193
And he just, Oh, I'm feeling I'm a
little choked up just remembering

00:30:39.193 --> 00:30:43.423
some of the stories and handling
them with great sensitivity and

00:30:43.483 --> 00:30:49.593
balance and like compassion and,
but also firmness and calling men

00:30:49.593 --> 00:30:51.473
and women out on their nonsense.

00:30:51.513 --> 00:30:57.333
And they're basically, you could say
that he operates quite well as a.

00:30:57.838 --> 00:31:02.508
sort of pop as a therapist really,
like calling people out on their

00:31:03.008 --> 00:31:07.048
limiting beliefs and the things that
are causing them to get stuck in anger

00:31:07.358 --> 00:31:09.108
and that's, and, and in victimhood.

00:31:09.184 --> 00:31:10.494
And so he's really good at that stuff.

00:31:10.804 --> 00:31:14.657
So what he helped me with was a couple
of things moving away from booze slowly.

00:31:15.117 --> 00:31:21.159
And the other thing he helped me with was,
just accepting that in modern marriage.

00:31:21.904 --> 00:31:27.244
It is a bit uneven and strange in all
kinds of ways and that there's, there's

00:31:27.284 --> 00:31:29.934
give and there's take and it doesn't
always make sense and you're just

00:31:29.954 --> 00:31:34.284
gonna have to, you know, and he gives
countless examples of like, his wife

00:31:34.284 --> 00:31:38.414
will just fling him errands without
a second thought and he flings her an

00:31:38.414 --> 00:31:40.174
errand one day and she's like, excuse me?

00:31:40.704 --> 00:31:41.314
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:41.364 --> 00:31:42.804
He just does, like one.

00:31:42.804 --> 00:31:43.474
Yeah.

00:31:43.474 --> 00:31:47.074
And he said, and you know, I make
Nia a sandwich like every day,

00:31:47.374 --> 00:31:50.604
like I do the cooking and cleaning
because it's beneath her pay grade.

00:31:50.944 --> 00:31:53.074
But hey, she's doing a
lot of other great stuff.

00:31:53.544 --> 00:31:56.994
And then one day she made me a sandwich
and I realized it had been two years

00:31:57.024 --> 00:32:01.294
since she made a sandwich and I sat
there and I just cried like a baby.

00:32:02.844 --> 00:32:07.594
Joe: Yeah, and I think that's actually
a much more interesting discussion

00:32:07.614 --> 00:32:11.177
than the one they were having on
that podcast because it actually

00:32:11.177 --> 00:32:16.047
puts women in the frame a little
bit like, are you guys maybe getting

00:32:16.047 --> 00:32:17.497
some of this a little bit wrong?

00:32:18.182 --> 00:32:20.772
God, you can't say that because
women are fucking perfect.

00:32:20.782 --> 00:32:21.272
Sam: That's right.

00:32:21.302 --> 00:32:23.662
Well, and so I think that
there's a, there's a, I should

00:32:23.732 --> 00:32:24.452
Joe: probably let Ali speak.

00:32:26.232 --> 00:32:26.752
Ali: Yeah, yeah,

00:32:26.752 --> 00:32:26.822
Sam: yeah.

00:32:26.822 --> 00:32:28.322
Well, there's, I think
there's a patronizing.

00:32:28.472 --> 00:32:29.232
He has

00:32:29.232 --> 00:32:32.172
Joe: that joke about like,
I make all these mistakes,

00:32:32.172 --> 00:32:33.952
but clearly my wife is just.

00:32:34.182 --> 00:32:38.172
Preserved, you know, behind
glass as the perfect human

00:32:38.322 --> 00:32:39.802
who never gets anything wrong.

00:32:39.812 --> 00:32:43.092
And yeah, God, that I can relate
to that from having partners.

00:32:43.242 --> 00:32:46.262
It's like, what's this
double standard here where

00:32:46.262 --> 00:32:49.412
Ali: I get pummeled for
everything I get wrong.

00:32:49.422 --> 00:32:53.242
Putting women up on a pedestal
and then being patriarchy, right?

00:32:53.252 --> 00:32:53.882
Yeah, exactly.

00:32:54.122 --> 00:32:55.642
Because we're imperfect creatures.

00:32:55.642 --> 00:32:58.402
We're all imperfect to
be imperfect is human.

00:32:59.702 --> 00:33:01.232
Yeah, we don't get it right all the time.

00:33:01.232 --> 00:33:04.682
Sometimes women and, you know, even
like watching, you know, the news

00:33:04.682 --> 00:33:08.912
this week and watching some really
famous women who've utterly fucked up.

00:33:09.342 --> 00:33:09.842
And...

00:33:10.512 --> 00:33:11.332
Are you talking about Lizzo?

00:33:11.362 --> 00:33:11.632
Yeah.

00:33:11.882 --> 00:33:12.202
And it's...

00:33:12.312 --> 00:33:12.892
Did she do it?

00:33:13.122 --> 00:33:13.402
I don't know.

00:33:13.402 --> 00:33:14.312
I don't know.

00:33:14.362 --> 00:33:17.142
But it's, it's, it's, that's,
it'd be heartbreaking if she did.

00:33:17.472 --> 00:33:19.782
And, but that, but that's the thing.

00:33:19.782 --> 00:33:23.092
You see, like, yeah, people
make mistakes and, and being

00:33:23.092 --> 00:33:25.152
perfect and similarly with men.

00:33:25.172 --> 00:33:26.512
And I just, yeah, we, we...

00:33:26.752 --> 00:33:31.132
It's actually finding that sweet spot
of being able to call, gently call

00:33:31.132 --> 00:33:34.942
each other out on that, but also within
the context of why are we doing that?

00:33:34.952 --> 00:33:36.722
Why, you know, what can we do better?

00:33:36.772 --> 00:33:37.982
Joe: So you don't want
to be on a pedestal?

00:33:39.032 --> 00:33:40.782
Come on, you love it up there.

00:33:42.912 --> 00:33:45.082
I've never been on one, I don't
even know what the views like.

00:33:45.082 --> 00:33:45.522
No, you know

00:33:45.522 --> 00:33:48.622
Ali: what, it's actually, it's exhausting.

00:33:49.062 --> 00:33:52.472
When someone's got this like,
perception of you that's, you know,

00:33:52.522 --> 00:33:56.542
a projection of their fantasy,
and it is absolutely impossible to

00:33:56.542 --> 00:33:59.872
live up to, and It might feel nice

00:33:59.872 --> 00:34:02.292
Sam: here and there, but ultimately
it gets you on the back end.

00:34:02.292 --> 00:34:02.382
It

00:34:02.402 --> 00:34:03.142
Ali: absolutely does.

00:34:03.142 --> 00:34:05.782
And so there's no room to make a mistake.

00:34:05.802 --> 00:34:11.652
There's no room to, to fuck up and yeah,
like I said, we all fuck up and I've

00:34:11.652 --> 00:34:12.842
certainly been in that position before.

00:34:12.842 --> 00:34:12.962
And you

00:34:12.962 --> 00:34:15.346
Sam: better keep up with the hair
removal if you want to keep up

00:34:15.346 --> 00:34:16.252
Ali: with the goddess thing.

00:34:16.262 --> 00:34:19.392
Like, you know, and there's like, speaking
about the Barbie, like, you know, that,

00:34:19.422 --> 00:34:23.081
um, America Ferrera's, uh, you know,
monologue, which has got, you know, which,

00:34:23.351 --> 00:34:25.071
you know, it's talking about, you know.

00:34:25.271 --> 00:34:28.381
All of the things we're expected
to be all the time and being on

00:34:28.381 --> 00:34:31.141
that pedestal is actually really
fucking hard and exhausting.

00:34:31.191 --> 00:34:31.491
Yes.

00:34:31.551 --> 00:34:31.821
Yeah.

00:34:31.841 --> 00:34:33.391
Joe: We'll save that
for our Barbie episode.

00:34:33.421 --> 00:34:36.961
Once Sam does, I think we will genuinely
do a Barbie episode because I think

00:34:36.961 --> 00:34:40.431
I actually need to re watch that
film because what I need you to woman

00:34:40.431 --> 00:34:47.701
splain to me, Ali, is how do I suffer
or not benefit from the patriarchy?

00:34:47.801 --> 00:34:51.421
Because I just thought as a straight
white guy, it was a pretty square deal

00:34:51.831 --> 00:34:55.691
and, uh, I was benefiting and I just
had to make some noises about, oh, I

00:34:55.691 --> 00:34:59.091
feel terrible about this, but yes, I'll
take that job, or yes, I'll take that

00:34:59.461 --> 00:35:03.721
pay rate, or, you know, I just had to
play along with like, oh yeah, it is

00:35:03.741 --> 00:35:07.041
terrible, um, I hope you fix it one day,
meanwhile, I'm going to take advantage

00:35:07.041 --> 00:35:11.271
of it, right, but you're telling me that
I suffer as a man from the patriarchy,

00:35:11.281 --> 00:35:14.371
and Barbie seemed to be basically,
let's not get sidetracked with Barbie

00:35:14.371 --> 00:35:18.536
just yet, but it did seem to be a film
about how men suffer in the patriarchy.

00:35:18.536 --> 00:35:18.856
Yeah.

00:35:18.916 --> 00:35:21.276
And I thought, I still don't understand.

00:35:21.386 --> 00:35:25.277
I would not be able to define
for you what the patriarchy is.

00:35:25.345 --> 00:35:29.475
and I certainly wouldn't be
able to explain what is negative

00:35:29.475 --> 00:35:31.195
about it for me as a, as a man.

00:35:31.645 --> 00:35:34.025
Sam: Well, I mean, there's one way of
looking at it, which is that it's a

00:35:34.475 --> 00:35:38.155
relatively small number of men owning
all the stuff and defining the conditions

00:35:38.155 --> 00:35:40.295
in which the rest of us spend our lives.

00:35:40.610 --> 00:35:40.790
So,

00:35:41.380 --> 00:35:41.760
Ali: Ali?

00:35:42.260 --> 00:35:47.000
Yeah, no, it's, it's a, yeah,
very concise definition, yeah.

00:35:47.050 --> 00:35:48.990
Sam: And there are some women that
are members of the patriarchy.

00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:49.730
Yeah, absolutely.

00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:50.640
Like Gina Reinhardt.

00:35:50.710 --> 00:35:50.920
Joe: Yeah.

00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:53.410
Hang on, women can be
members of the patriarchy?

00:35:53.420 --> 00:35:53.940
Ali: Absolutely.

00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:54.670
They can benefit

00:35:54.670 --> 00:35:55.150
Joe: from it.

00:35:55.150 --> 00:35:58.310
becomes, the concept breaks down
when you tell me a woman can

00:35:58.310 --> 00:35:59.190
be a part of the patriarchy.

00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:01.020
Because then I don't have a
concept of what the patriarchy is.

00:36:01.020 --> 00:36:01.280
Basically,

00:36:01.570 --> 00:36:02.960
Sam: well this is Marxist feminism.

00:36:02.970 --> 00:36:06.320
Joe: What you're describing
is uh, like oligarchy, yes.

00:36:07.205 --> 00:36:07.885
Sam: Capitalism.

00:36:07.885 --> 00:36:09.045
This is a class based analysis.

00:36:09.165 --> 00:36:09.585
Fundamentally.

00:36:09.585 --> 00:36:11.935
Joe: Patriarchy is class
based, isn't it gender based?

00:36:12.325 --> 00:36:13.075
I mean, come on.

00:36:13.305 --> 00:36:15.455
Ali: But you can't, you can't
have it without class, without

00:36:15.455 --> 00:36:18.095
Joe: race, those things do need
to be the only person listening

00:36:18.095 --> 00:36:20.755
to this who doesn't understand
exactly what is meant by patriarchy.

00:36:20.785 --> 00:36:21.055
Look, we

00:36:21.055 --> 00:36:25.555
Sam: have to do Feminism 101 here, but
like, it, I do have, like, some ability

00:36:25.555 --> 00:36:28.035
to talk about it because I've done some
of the reading, but ... The second wave

00:36:28.035 --> 00:36:33.175
of feminism was basically proposing a
class based position for women as a whole.

00:36:33.545 --> 00:36:36.835
So it was just a simple kind of
innovation there to just say women

00:36:36.835 --> 00:36:42.135
as a whole are like a second class
and, you know, what follows from

00:36:42.135 --> 00:36:44.325
that and the politics that followed.

00:36:44.395 --> 00:36:47.935
And so a lot of useful things were
accomplished through that analysis.

00:36:48.125 --> 00:36:49.495
So now what Caitlin Moran is...

00:36:49.975 --> 00:36:51.725
Joe: What wave of
feminism are we up to now?

00:36:51.735 --> 00:36:53.220
Sam: 3, 3.

00:36:53.220 --> 00:36:53.665
5, whatever.

00:36:53.725 --> 00:36:54.005
Joe: Right.

00:36:54.005 --> 00:36:54.335
Yeah.

00:36:55.060 --> 00:36:56.900
And you've read your
feminist theory too, Ali?

00:36:56.940 --> 00:36:57.280
Yeah.

00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:00.710
And is it common amongst you and
your friends to have a decent

00:37:00.720 --> 00:37:04.200
theoretical understanding of feminism
or some of them are just more vibe?

00:37:04.890 --> 00:37:06.530
Ali: Uh, I think there's a mix, a mix.

00:37:06.890 --> 00:37:07.170
Yeah.

00:37:07.190 --> 00:37:11.210
But no, definitely, you know,
I'd say women are, well, within

00:37:11.210 --> 00:37:14.900
my, you know, the context of my
friends, pretty across it, yeah.

00:37:15.430 --> 00:37:16.900
Joe: So what's the project right now?

00:37:17.030 --> 00:37:18.480
What's the priority for feminism?

00:37:18.945 --> 00:37:25.975
Is it pay still, or is it education, or
is it cultural domination, or getting hold

00:37:25.975 --> 00:37:29.815
Ali: of the mental load, it's the
mental load, and we were going to talk

00:37:29.825 --> 00:37:34.655
about that as another topic, but the
exhaustion of being, you know, a woman.

00:37:34.655 --> 00:37:38.025
Again, similarly, like being on
that pedestal, the expectation

00:37:38.025 --> 00:37:42.535
that you have to have it all, do it
all, and have it all without, yeah.

00:37:43.395 --> 00:37:46.485
Without the capacity or the
supports to be able to actually...

00:37:46.575 --> 00:37:49.235
Joe: And what happens if you just
went on strike from the mental load?

00:37:50.045 --> 00:37:50.815
Well, everything, well, it'd

00:37:50.825 --> 00:37:52.235
Ali: be like in, was it in Iceland?

00:37:52.235 --> 00:37:55.155
It all just fell apart and so
you'd have some meaningful changes.

00:37:55.385 --> 00:37:56.195
Um, yeah.

00:37:56.225 --> 00:38:00.295
Sam: Because, because the ultimate,
the original gender pay gap was

00:38:00.665 --> 00:38:03.345
the unpaid work women do, right?

00:38:03.415 --> 00:38:04.195
And so we, we...

00:38:05.110 --> 00:38:06.610
. This is, this is what capitalism does.

00:38:06.610 --> 00:38:08.290
So that's when, that's when
you said we, it keeps railroad

00:38:08.290 --> 00:38:10.180
us in to certain narrow areas

00:38:10.180 --> 00:38:11.130
Joe: of debate that's distract.

00:38:11.130 --> 00:38:13.570
When, when we all started doing
the dishes and the washing, we

00:38:13.570 --> 00:38:14.920
all became equally oppressed.

00:38:15.220 --> 00:38:15.700
Yes.

00:38:15.730 --> 00:38:18.010
Sam: So, no, it's, so it wasn't
really a victory, was it?

00:38:18.015 --> 00:38:18.100
Yes.

00:38:18.130 --> 00:38:21.340
Well, that's right to, well, to the,
to the extent, to the extent that,

00:38:21.345 --> 00:38:25.960
let's say to people that happened
to be a heterosexual xx and XY with,

00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:28.810
you know, uh, kids and jobs, right?

00:38:28.870 --> 00:38:30.790
They're both in employment,
so they're both.

00:38:31.485 --> 00:38:35.105
You know, putting up with that and all
the disadvantages that come with that,

00:38:35.105 --> 00:38:40.125
essentially, like, Sure, you get a pay
packet, but you need two of them to

00:38:40.125 --> 00:38:45.155
afford what one pay packet could buy you
a generation ago, so whoop dee fucking do.

00:38:45.845 --> 00:38:54.125
Now you've got two busy, tired people
with low libido and High cognitive burden,

00:38:54.925 --> 00:38:58.855
and let's say they even managed to split
the house, the domestic work between them

00:38:58.875 --> 00:39:01.115
evenly somehow, which is a difficult task.

00:39:02.185 --> 00:39:04.945
Well now you've just got
two miserable people.

00:39:07.125 --> 00:39:08.395
Well done capitalism.

00:39:08.695 --> 00:39:09.155
Ali: Well done.

00:39:09.175 --> 00:39:12.875
And, and, and, but I suppose like
we're still very much where this is.

00:39:13.225 --> 00:39:17.085
The difference is that, that, that
split is still not, and there's a

00:39:17.085 --> 00:39:20.295
lot of evidence to support that there
is not, that split is not equal.

00:39:21.035 --> 00:39:21.695
But for a variety

00:39:21.695 --> 00:39:23.975
Joe: of reasons, you get your two
weeks in Bali though, where someone

00:39:23.975 --> 00:39:26.405
else does all the housework and
you get along really well for that.

00:39:26.725 --> 00:39:28.005
Sam: It's not, that's just it.

00:39:28.205 --> 00:39:30.355
It's a window into how life could be.

00:39:31.165 --> 00:39:34.585
What's really needed is not two weeks
in Bali with third world slaves.

00:39:34.895 --> 00:39:36.275
What's needed is.

00:39:36.905 --> 00:39:41.025
An easier life on average and
a better work life balance.

00:39:41.065 --> 00:39:43.195
We need a three day,
four day working week.

00:39:43.905 --> 00:39:45.155
Joe: I wanted to say Sam,

00:39:45.575 --> 00:39:47.865
Sam: what could benefit most
women is what could benefit most

00:39:47.865 --> 00:39:49.245
men, like it's as simple as that.

00:39:49.285 --> 00:39:53.635
Joe: I think we'll wrap it up soon,
but um, I wanted to say something

00:39:53.635 --> 00:39:56.965
you said to me a while ago, cause you
and I, as soon as you say the word

00:39:56.965 --> 00:40:00.865
Marxist, I kind of tune out cause I
feel like you're trapped in the 19th

00:40:00.885 --> 00:40:03.075
century and it's like not that relevant.

00:40:03.075 --> 00:40:04.055
I'm a pretty retro dude.

00:40:04.575 --> 00:40:09.265
But something you said a while ago
is that to understand the world you

00:40:09.265 --> 00:40:11.535
decide to understand economic history.

00:40:11.555 --> 00:40:11.995
Yes.

00:40:12.525 --> 00:40:17.081
And then I took that into my personal
life and I looked around and I, I

00:40:17.091 --> 00:40:22.031
thought about my life and I thought what
really defines the decisions I make?

00:40:22.242 --> 00:40:23.852
And it's, and it's economics.

00:40:24.052 --> 00:40:24.682
Yes, it does.

00:40:24.762 --> 00:40:29.132
And then I can extrapolate that out
to the whole world, and suddenly, I do

00:40:29.142 --> 00:40:31.762
have a better understanding, because
I think I've always been a discourse,

00:40:31.802 --> 00:40:37.172
cultural kind of guy, you know, like,
I went to film school too, and learned

00:40:37.172 --> 00:40:42.422
how to dissect films using different
ideologies and methodologies and whatever,

00:40:42.792 --> 00:40:46.642
turns out it wasn't that good a way
to understand the actual real world.

00:40:47.002 --> 00:40:51.362
So I think that, I'm going to say on
the record, I think I agree with you,

00:40:51.372 --> 00:40:57.797
and I think that I need to understand
my own economics more, and understand

00:40:57.797 --> 00:41:01.697
the pressures that I'm under, because
then I'll understand culturally

00:41:01.907 --> 00:41:04.637
why I'm drawn to a Jordan Peterson.

00:41:04.807 --> 00:41:05.207
Yes.

00:41:05.217 --> 00:41:08.577
Whereas if, instead of going to art
school, I'd go on to law school, when

00:41:08.587 --> 00:41:13.397
I was now on a hundred and fifty grand
a year, I might be more drawn to, I

00:41:13.397 --> 00:41:18.400
don't know, Read the Guardian, and think
about, the voice referendum more, right?

00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:21.060
But instead I'm kind of
stressed, and trying to...

00:41:21.590 --> 00:41:26.170
Make a living, and I have less time and
capacity for things that I don't see as...

00:41:26.530 --> 00:41:28.130
Super essential, right?

00:41:28.680 --> 00:41:30.520
I'm not saying that about The
Voice, by the way, it's just an

00:41:30.520 --> 00:41:33.110
example of a middle class issue.

00:41:33.680 --> 00:41:37.620
Sam: The highest support for it
is among the upper middle class.

00:41:37.640 --> 00:41:38.130
Well, it's

00:41:38.140 --> 00:41:41.430
Joe: that kind of Guardian Saturday
paper kind of thing, right?

00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:41.710
It is.

00:41:42.380 --> 00:41:46.780
And I, surprisingly to myself,
but I have ended up not that.

00:41:47.030 --> 00:41:48.010
We're all voting yes, by the way.

00:41:48.020 --> 00:41:50.320
Yeah, I'm voting yes, of course.

00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:51.810
Like, God, we fucked up.

00:41:51.810 --> 00:41:53.120
Whatever we can do to make it better.

00:41:53.415 --> 00:41:57.601
It's pretty simple, but, I'm not in
that discourse anymore, uh, I'm very

00:41:57.601 --> 00:42:00.451
much a working class person, and,

00:42:00.906 --> 00:42:05.116
Sam: yeah, it's about, I'm absolutely
frothing my dacks right now, but anyway.

00:42:05.276 --> 00:42:05.776
About what?

00:42:06.036 --> 00:42:07.486
Oh, just everything I'm
hearing, yeah, anyway.

00:42:08.396 --> 00:42:08.546
But

00:42:08.546 --> 00:42:13.016
Joe: it's like So, to tie it back into
that podcast we all listened to and

00:42:13.016 --> 00:42:17.190
that book and stuff, I think I'm going
to agree with you that it probably

00:42:17.190 --> 00:42:22.743
needs to focus more on the political,
the concrete and looking at that stuff

00:42:22.763 --> 00:42:25.603
like, are there too many men in jail?

00:42:25.643 --> 00:42:27.653
Are there too many men committing suicide?

00:42:27.693 --> 00:42:29.173
Are there too many unemployed men?

00:42:29.173 --> 00:42:29.303
And then

00:42:29.303 --> 00:42:30.003
Sam: you don't stop there.

00:42:30.023 --> 00:42:33.843
What you do is you go, are
there too many people in prison?

00:42:34.463 --> 00:42:36.113
Why are there so many people in prison?

00:42:37.063 --> 00:42:38.553
Why do we have prisons?

00:42:40.238 --> 00:42:40.758
Yeah, but

00:42:40.838 --> 00:42:42.488
Joe: if you go too far,

00:42:42.598 --> 00:42:43.078
Sam: then it becomes too abstract.

00:42:43.188 --> 00:42:48.138
I'm not saying we can ever do without,
like, some form of incarceration

00:42:48.138 --> 00:42:53.338
will probably be necessary sadly,
but the systems of genuine oppression

00:42:53.358 --> 00:42:56.938
that are being built up currently
around the world are no joke.

00:42:56.988 --> 00:43:00.928
Joe: So I'm going to say, I've decided
from being somewhat conservative, from

00:43:00.958 --> 00:43:04.628
being a conservative centrist, I think.

00:43:05.543 --> 00:43:10.693
My economic circumstances lead me to
having to be open to more radical...

00:43:11.593 --> 00:43:12.123
Yes.

00:43:12.763 --> 00:43:14.003
Sam: Otherwise it's fascism, bro.

00:43:14.003 --> 00:43:15.153
I'm telling you like, that's it.

00:43:15.163 --> 00:43:18.593
We either make big changes and create more
justice or we're going to get fascism.

00:43:18.593 --> 00:43:19.533
It's as simple as that.

00:43:19.593 --> 00:43:23.563
Joe: As will, I think the changes that
come about with climate change, where

00:43:23.563 --> 00:43:27.233
it's like, are they going to go and
force me to work when it's 43 degrees?

00:43:27.253 --> 00:43:28.143
Fucking oath they are.

00:43:28.213 --> 00:43:30.863
And in the film industry,
the answer will be yes.

00:43:30.913 --> 00:43:33.493
In the building industry, no,
they knock off at 35 degrees

00:43:33.493 --> 00:43:34.423
because they have a union.

00:43:35.063 --> 00:43:38.773
So like climate change comes
back to that stuff as well.

00:43:39.058 --> 00:43:40.218
as well, actually.

00:43:40.248 --> 00:43:45.108
So it's, it's, it's been interesting
spending over a year in this dialogue

00:43:45.428 --> 00:43:47.238
with you, Sam, and with you, Ali.

00:43:48.098 --> 00:43:52.418
And it's like, for as much as I get
wrong, the one thing I, I have a good

00:43:52.418 --> 00:43:55.788
ability to do is open, open my mind again.

00:43:56.148 --> 00:43:56.378
Yeah.

00:43:56.418 --> 00:43:57.218
And take

00:43:57.218 --> 00:43:57.808
Sam: on stuff.

00:43:57.848 --> 00:44:00.108
But I also think you're
an excellent weather vane.

00:44:00.268 --> 00:44:01.498
Like you do point.

00:44:01.813 --> 00:44:03.653
Where the winds are blowing like I see it.

00:44:03.703 --> 00:44:04.053
Well, I'm

00:44:04.053 --> 00:44:07.443
Joe: glad I didn't back down on
exploring Jordan Peterson And then I

00:44:07.493 --> 00:44:12.543
Jordan Peterson himself went somewhat
off the rails Yeah, cool completely

00:44:12.543 --> 00:44:15.953
ended up in a coma in Russia trying to
get over a benzo addiction Well, yeah,

00:44:16.743 --> 00:44:18.993
Sam: but but he got
destroyed by the algorithm

00:44:20.038 --> 00:44:20.088
Joe: He did.

00:44:20.088 --> 00:44:20.858
Yeah, he did.

00:44:20.898 --> 00:44:24.818
And if he had a stuck to doing his
academic psychology stuff on YouTube

00:44:24.818 --> 00:44:28.538
it would, he would have been making a
small but positive contribution to the

00:44:28.538 --> 00:44:32.738
world instead he became a nasty right
winger and so in that sense my friend

00:44:32.738 --> 00:44:37.028
who warned me off him was right but my
reaction I'm glad I had that reaction

00:44:37.028 --> 00:44:40.248
and stuck to my intellectual guns and
be like no I'm going to explore this

00:44:40.278 --> 00:44:45.595
you and the question that's unanswered
for me and you, more than for Ali, I

00:44:45.595 --> 00:44:53.025
think, is how do we either become role
models for young men and boys or, uh,

00:44:53.035 --> 00:44:55.305
find them some role models, you know?

00:44:55.695 --> 00:44:57.145
Sam: Yeah, really fair question.

00:44:57.322 --> 00:44:59.012
but you know what I think
would be interesting?

00:44:59.482 --> 00:45:00.622
Let's hear it from Ali.

00:45:00.622 --> 00:45:00.882
What?

00:45:01.372 --> 00:45:01.712
Joe: Yeah.

00:45:01.812 --> 00:45:04.592
What I want to hear from Ali
is, you've got a teenage boy.

00:45:05.232 --> 00:45:08.522
When you look around the cultural
landscape, who do you see as role models?

00:45:10.412 --> 00:45:18.442
Ali: Ooh, I think like when you
say sort of gentle masculinity

00:45:18.442 --> 00:45:20.412
or sensitive masculinity.

00:45:21.122 --> 00:45:24.932
And you know, and if we're talking
about like celebrity sort of, you know,

00:45:25.112 --> 00:45:27.792
Sam: yeah, I guess it needs to
be someone, at least some public

00:45:27.792 --> 00:45:28.832
profile, you know, like they

00:45:28.902 --> 00:45:29.542
Joe: mentioned Keanu

00:45:29.562 --> 00:45:29.982
Ali: Reeves.

00:45:30.022 --> 00:45:30.242
Yeah.

00:45:30.242 --> 00:45:31.812
Well, yeah, well, that's
what she's saying.

00:45:31.812 --> 00:45:36.892
Like Keanu Reeves, the Pedro Pascal's
like that this, you know, sort of more

00:45:36.902 --> 00:45:38.885
gentle, masculinity that I feel like.

00:45:39.340 --> 00:45:40.110
Particularly they would still

00:45:40.110 --> 00:45:43.170
Joe: throw you around a
bit in the bedroom, right?

00:45:43.390 --> 00:45:45.956
You still got to have a bit of
bulk and a bit of like, no, it's,

00:45:45.956 --> 00:45:48.430
Ali: it's not, it's not that it's,
it's, it's, it's, it's actually, I

00:45:48.430 --> 00:45:52.360
think it's really finding people that
you can individually identify with.

00:45:52.660 --> 00:45:55.680
And that, I mean, that goes for
everybody is being able to have a role

00:45:55.680 --> 00:46:00.240
model that, you know, that, that suits
the things that you, that you value.

00:46:00.270 --> 00:46:05.550
And so, you know, in the context of my
son and what I would want for him and.

00:46:06.300 --> 00:46:11.730
You know, I would like to see more
gay, you know, sensitive, you know,

00:46:12.030 --> 00:46:17.300
gentle role models out there to,
you know, that he can look up to

00:46:17.300 --> 00:46:17.540
Joe: and...

00:46:17.550 --> 00:46:19.580
What about someone like a
Harry Styles or whatever?

00:46:19.720 --> 00:46:20.710
Ali: Oh, he loves Harry Styles.

00:46:20.730 --> 00:46:21.470
We all love Harry Styles.

00:46:21.510 --> 00:46:21.870
So, so,

00:46:21.870 --> 00:46:22.760
Joe: so...

00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:25.400
But Harry's a more feminine masculinity...

00:46:25.490 --> 00:46:26.820
Sam: No, but Harry's a bit of a...

00:46:26.890 --> 00:46:28.050
Blank Cypher.

00:46:28.190 --> 00:46:28.440
Really.

00:46:28.470 --> 00:46:30.120
Joe: I don't know who he is
other than see photos of him.

00:46:30.130 --> 00:46:30.500
Exactly.

00:46:30.620 --> 00:46:30.850
Ali: Yeah.

00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:33.900
No, yeah, no, I think, yeah, but
actually having people who like, I

00:46:33.910 --> 00:46:37.230
think that's where Pedro Pascal and
like the, the fandom around him has

00:46:37.230 --> 00:46:42.670
really, particularly after The Last of
Us and seeing like the way he speaks.

00:46:42.670 --> 00:46:43.470
Isn't it like daddy stuff though?

00:46:43.950 --> 00:46:47.240
There's a bit of that, that, that
daddy energy, but at the same time,

00:46:47.240 --> 00:46:50.240
it's, you know, I mean, that's just
more people thirsting after him.

00:46:50.390 --> 00:46:53.810
But the, the, the, I think the, the
fandom has been created because he

00:46:54.385 --> 00:46:59.355
Projects this lovely, sensitive, warm,
genuine, you know, sort of what it

00:46:59.355 --> 00:47:03.485
is to be a man without all the, the,
yeah, the toxic, negative bullshit that

00:47:03.485 --> 00:47:05.785
it's actually incredibly appealing.

00:47:05.795 --> 00:47:08.195
And that's why a lot of, you
know, women and men are just

00:47:08.195 --> 00:47:09.715
like, bring on Daddy Pedro.

00:47:09.715 --> 00:47:09.925
What about

00:47:10.195 --> 00:47:12.305
Joe: outside of, uh, Hollywood actors?

00:47:12.515 --> 00:47:15.925
Sam: Well, I was going to say, there's
Taika Waititi, um, before he, like...

00:47:16.140 --> 00:47:19.170
just if you just hear him talk about
like growing up with a single mom and

00:47:19.170 --> 00:47:23.010
like stuff like that like he's really
like he he's very he's very good on

00:47:23.340 --> 00:47:27.013
he's and he's a gentle but also like
funny and relatable but i actually

00:47:27.133 --> 00:47:31.623
think we need closer to home like yeah
um and it's good to start with the

00:47:31.623 --> 00:47:33.963
public sphere you know the media sphere

00:47:33.963 --> 00:47:36.496
Joe: and it's got to be someone
everyone has access to it's going

00:47:36.496 --> 00:47:37.623
to be a role model but if we're

00:47:37.623 --> 00:47:41.193
Ali: also talking about yeah like
people within his life i look at his

00:47:41.263 --> 00:47:47.023
dad who is a really  excellent example
of, you know, what it is to be a man.

00:47:47.023 --> 00:47:49.263
And even though they are very
different in a lot of ways, like

00:47:49.263 --> 00:47:50.833
I think his dad's always really...

00:47:51.198 --> 00:47:55.138
Reinforce the message that there is not
one way to be a man and whatever you,

00:47:55.428 --> 00:47:59.258
that looks like to you, we will support
you and love you for what that is.

00:47:59.258 --> 00:48:03.048
And I think, his dad is, you know,
done an amazing job in that way in, in

00:48:03.048 --> 00:48:07.038
embracing the things that, you know,
are perceived to be either feminine

00:48:07.038 --> 00:48:11.320
or whatever it is, because he has a
genuine interest in it and that's okay.

00:48:11.320 --> 00:48:13.910
Yeah, his dad's done a
really fantastic job in that.

00:48:13.910 --> 00:48:16.570
And I think he's also got some
really excellent teachers at school,

00:48:16.580 --> 00:48:18.110
like some, you know, men in there.

00:48:18.830 --> 00:48:23.839
Joe: I'm sensing a huge like dearth of
anyone in the public sphere other than a

00:48:23.839 --> 00:48:25.539
couple of Hollywood actors or pop stars.

00:48:25.539 --> 00:48:27.689
Like, I don't know if there ever was.

00:48:28.484 --> 00:48:32.094
You know, like, I probably should
never have looked up to Jack Kerouac

00:48:32.094 --> 00:48:35.574
if I hadn't been his contemporary, he
was an incredibly flawed person, all

00:48:35.574 --> 00:48:37.694
the beats were, but when I was 16...

00:48:37.994 --> 00:48:41.594
I got handed on the road and read
that book and that changed me, you

00:48:41.594 --> 00:48:43.664
know, or I have Bob Dylan to this day.

00:48:43.664 --> 00:48:48.104
I have a Bob Dylan poster on my wall
above my bed and he's like my God.

00:48:48.124 --> 00:48:48.374
Yeah.

00:48:48.374 --> 00:48:49.534
Those, those sort of people.

00:48:49.654 --> 00:48:50.734
Again, incredibly flawed.

00:48:50.734 --> 00:48:53.074
I'm sure when it comes to
say relationships with women,

00:48:53.784 --> 00:48:55.234
but an artist, you know,

00:48:56.614 --> 00:48:57.124
Sam: incredible artist.

00:48:57.134 --> 00:48:59.454
Also the role models you need
change through your life.

00:48:59.464 --> 00:48:59.734
Yes.

00:48:59.794 --> 00:49:00.744
And so, yeah.

00:49:00.774 --> 00:49:03.144
So for me at one point
it is Dylan and Kerouac.

00:49:03.184 --> 00:49:05.684
Joe: And you can still have
Dylan and Kerouac as a 16 year

00:49:05.684 --> 00:49:06.834
old now and they probably do.

00:49:07.054 --> 00:49:07.264
Sam: Yeah.

00:49:07.484 --> 00:49:11.744
And like, it was good to have Ginsberg
in the mix because he was like, he

00:49:11.744 --> 00:49:13.214
gave me a window into something.

00:49:14.834 --> 00:49:15.584
And like, yeah.

00:49:15.584 --> 00:49:19.274
And he helped me understand my own
sexuality a bit more, but like,

00:49:19.634 --> 00:49:24.134
there's, but there's so much beyond
just like the radical icons of the

00:49:24.134 --> 00:49:26.154
past or the present, moving into my.

00:49:27.809 --> 00:49:29.599
So, even in my early thirties,
I needed role models that helped

00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:31.249
me  move my career forward.

00:49:31.739 --> 00:49:32.579
A lot of them were actually

00:49:32.579 --> 00:49:32.889
Joe: women.

00:49:32.979 --> 00:49:36.529
Yeah, and Che Guevara's
not that helpful with that.

00:49:36.539 --> 00:49:36.999
No, that's right.

00:49:37.229 --> 00:49:40.629
But when you're 21 and smoking bongs,
and, oh, I had like a Che Guevara

00:49:40.659 --> 00:49:42.759
banner from Cuba hung in my window in...

00:49:42.979 --> 00:49:43.129
Yeah.

00:49:43.129 --> 00:49:44.329
A flat in North Melbourne.

00:49:44.329 --> 00:49:44.649
That's right.

00:49:45.549 --> 00:49:45.619
That

00:49:46.399 --> 00:49:47.729
Ali: is the most Melbourne thing.

00:49:48.069 --> 00:49:48.409
It was

00:49:48.419 --> 00:49:48.931
Joe: so cool.

00:49:48.931 --> 00:49:50.689
It had horses on it.

00:49:50.689 --> 00:49:51.359
It was cool.

00:49:51.879 --> 00:49:54.689
But like Che Guevara was one, but
I didn't know what he really did.

00:49:54.689 --> 00:49:56.749
I just knew he was cool
and a revolutionary.

00:49:56.749 --> 00:49:59.819
I had one really famous cool
photo of him and that was enough.

00:49:59.889 --> 00:50:00.929
You know, you're not

00:50:01.189 --> 00:50:01.529
Sam: super deep at trotting.

00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:04.629
But you're sensing an opportunity.

00:50:05.094 --> 00:50:08.044
To like, cause you know, Shai,

00:50:08.094 --> 00:50:09.994
Joe: Shai Govar is not going
to be a politician, it's

00:50:09.994 --> 00:50:11.314
not going to be Albo, is it?

00:50:11.374 --> 00:50:11.844
No,

00:50:12.834 --> 00:50:16.854
Sam: I mean, maybe it is for some blokes,
but like, I don't get that feeling.

00:50:17.854 --> 00:50:19.244
Joe: Centrists don't become

00:50:19.314 --> 00:50:19.854
Sam: icons.

00:50:20.814 --> 00:50:24.144
And in this country, it's tended to
be cricketers and people like that.

00:50:24.224 --> 00:50:24.994
Or Bob Hawke,

00:50:25.154 --> 00:50:25.984
Joe: I mean, Bob Hawke.

00:50:26.164 --> 00:50:26.484
Bob Hawke.

00:50:26.534 --> 00:50:28.064
See, in the 80s you had a Bob Hawke.

00:50:28.064 --> 00:50:28.824
You don't have that now.

00:50:28.834 --> 00:50:31.864
You have a very beige,
yeah, you have a very beige

00:50:31.884 --> 00:50:33.294
Sam: elbow doing the same job.

00:50:33.304 --> 00:50:36.304
I would say, I would say Max Chan
Lamatha, good male role model

00:50:36.364 --> 00:50:38.164
in lots of ways from, um, good

00:50:38.164 --> 00:50:38.274
old

00:50:38.284 --> 00:50:38.504
Joe: Max.

00:50:38.504 --> 00:50:40.424
He's not going to get anywhere
with a hyphenated name, mate.

00:50:40.424 --> 00:50:41.124
Yeah, whatever.

00:50:41.304 --> 00:50:41.514
Um,

00:50:42.234 --> 00:50:43.434
Sam: and but, you know, fair enough.

00:50:43.534 --> 00:50:47.444
But no, there is an opportunity and
a responsibility, uh, here, Joe.

00:50:47.444 --> 00:50:50.524
So maybe it's something
we can look into more.

00:50:50.984 --> 00:50:53.924
Uh, but there's a couple of
things that I've, not said so far.

00:50:54.114 --> 00:50:56.907
So I couldn't quite like
I've, I welcome Caitlin's

00:50:56.947 --> 00:50:58.757
contribution to the conversation.

00:50:58.757 --> 00:50:59.647
I think it's very important.

00:50:59.707 --> 00:51:01.584
And I think it's it's
going to do a lot of good.

00:51:01.674 --> 00:51:03.074
Wait till she hears about ours.

00:51:03.434 --> 00:51:03.764
Yeah.

00:51:05.204 --> 00:51:06.374
Actually, no, I'll, I'll send this to her.

00:51:06.374 --> 00:51:08.114
I'll send this to her.

00:51:08.384 --> 00:51:09.504
Joe: She will not listen to it.

00:51:09.514 --> 00:51:09.674
Sam: Yeah.

00:51:09.854 --> 00:51:10.814
Anyway, you never know.

00:51:11.024 --> 00:51:11.364
You never know.

00:51:11.694 --> 00:51:12.534
But like the.

00:51:13.984 --> 00:51:18.804
She's done a lot of useful stuff already,
and there's more to come, obviously, and a

00:51:18.804 --> 00:51:22.714
lot of women are going to really continue
to look up to her, some are going to feel

00:51:22.714 --> 00:51:26.684
disappointed by this, um, but I think a
lot of them will come on board eventually.

00:51:27.394 --> 00:51:30.387
But I was trying to put my
finger on like, I was trying to

00:51:30.387 --> 00:51:31.847
put aside all my little gripes.

00:51:32.197 --> 00:51:36.707
And go, what's the big thing, the really
useful thing here, and I was trying to

00:51:36.707 --> 00:51:39.647
find a way to put it in my own words, and
it only just came to me last night when I

00:51:39.647 --> 00:51:45.537
was doing the dishes, and she's basically
saying, I think the core of it is this,

00:51:46.477 --> 00:51:50.027
that this new generation of boys coming
through, and to some extent older men,

00:51:50.447 --> 00:51:58.907
we've ended up giving them the feeling
That their feelings don't matter, except

00:51:58.957 --> 00:52:00.877
as it relates to the well being of girls

00:52:00.927 --> 00:52:03.397
and I would, and I was like, go on, sorry.

00:52:03.667 --> 00:52:07.577
Joe: I would say it's almost a
feeling of men aren't really wanted.

00:52:07.867 --> 00:52:08.117
Sam: Yeah.

00:52:08.117 --> 00:52:11.007
And the only time we're going
to discuss your feelings is when

00:52:11.007 --> 00:52:12.627
they've become a problem for us.

00:52:13.137 --> 00:52:18.947
And then I was thinking about this and
I was like, Oh, this is the inverse of

00:52:18.977 --> 00:52:21.467
the emotional regime that was in place.

00:52:22.687 --> 00:52:25.647
A hundred years ago, like
that's what she's describing.

00:52:26.317 --> 00:52:30.107
Women's feelings didn't matter except
as they related to the prerogatives,

00:52:30.147 --> 00:52:31.607
well being and desires of men.

00:52:31.917 --> 00:52:32.337
Oh man.

00:52:33.107 --> 00:52:33.947
Joe: Wait till you see Barbie.

00:52:33.947 --> 00:52:34.987
It's going to blow your mind.

00:52:36.737 --> 00:52:40.557
Sam: And women's feelings, if they
went against, if they got in the way

00:52:40.557 --> 00:52:42.707
of what men wanted, hysterectomy.

00:52:43.992 --> 00:52:49.032
If they were in line with what
men wanted, great, but irrelevant,

00:52:49.032 --> 00:52:50.162
essentially, at that point.

00:52:50.352 --> 00:52:54.652
And if they don't affect what men want
either way, then not worth discussing.

00:52:55.212 --> 00:52:58.162
But I think maybe that's where
we've ended up a little bit in the,

00:52:58.512 --> 00:53:00.292
maybe in the middle class discourse.

00:53:00.482 --> 00:53:03.052
It might be different in the outer
suburbs or in certain communities.

00:53:03.462 --> 00:53:06.312
In certain religious communities in
particular, it might be very different.

00:53:06.692 --> 00:53:09.272
Uh, and boys might still
be enormously privileged.

00:53:09.572 --> 00:53:13.102
Um, but I think she's right
that what we're, the message...

00:53:13.552 --> 00:53:15.962
The younger boys are getting,
your feelings only matter when

00:53:15.972 --> 00:53:18.812
they cause problems for women,
and I think that's not going to

00:53:18.822 --> 00:53:19.112
Ali: work.

00:53:19.202 --> 00:53:23.672
And so, yeah, the, the issue is like,
yeah, if your feelings don't matter also

00:53:23.672 --> 00:53:27.312
within the context of the patriarchy,
that it's not okay to express your

00:53:27.312 --> 00:53:28.492
feelings if you are having them.

00:53:28.492 --> 00:53:29.092
It's not okay.

00:53:29.122 --> 00:53:29.462
Yeah.

00:53:29.472 --> 00:53:30.892
So it's a

00:53:30.892 --> 00:53:31.502
Sam: double edged...

00:53:31.522 --> 00:53:34.042
They're your problem and
you're alone to deal with them.

00:53:34.092 --> 00:53:34.982
And where does that lead?

00:53:35.002 --> 00:53:38.662
Ali: Gravitating towards Andrew
Tate's and that sort of stuff, because

00:53:38.662 --> 00:53:42.172
yeah, you can't express your feelings
because of the patriarchy, but also,

00:53:42.172 --> 00:53:44.312
yeah, your feelings don't matter

00:53:44.852 --> 00:53:45.572
Sam: because of the patriarchy.

00:53:45.592 --> 00:53:46.132
That's right.

00:53:46.162 --> 00:53:50.862
Or you go, or you externalize
them and put them onto others

00:53:51.122 --> 00:53:52.922
and seek to make them victims.

00:53:53.012 --> 00:53:54.722
And that's obviously not okay.

00:53:55.102 --> 00:53:58.412
And so, but the second thing that
is like, Caitlin and Mia are not.

00:53:58.557 --> 00:54:02.027
I'm not at all interested in where I
would like to take the conversation, I

00:54:02.037 --> 00:54:08.837
don't think, which is, I, I'm, and Ali
and I may be closer to a, an agreement on

00:54:08.837 --> 00:54:14.703
this, I want it to be that we don't need,
boys don't need to go looking for male

00:54:14.703 --> 00:54:20.548
role models, because anyone Who offers
the right things would be a suitable role

00:54:20.548 --> 00:54:24.658
model and like I and same for girls Yes,
and I would like to think that I can be

00:54:24.658 --> 00:54:28.828
a role model  because I've got  Female
students and I think that I have served

00:54:28.828 --> 00:54:34.888
as a role model and I think really cards
on the table I want a post class, post

00:54:34.888 --> 00:54:39.238
gender society, post race, all of that,
like, I want to move past all of this.

00:54:39.598 --> 00:54:42.058
I think that identity is the
number one thing that keeps

00:54:42.058 --> 00:54:43.888
us trapped within ideology.

00:54:44.208 --> 00:54:48.768
And that, I think ideology operates on
the level of feeling and sensation and ego

00:54:48.768 --> 00:54:49.348
Joe: and identity.

00:54:49.348 --> 00:54:55.198
And zooming right out, the reality
is that we're loving awareness and

00:54:55.198 --> 00:54:56.928
the illusion is that we're separate.

00:54:57.358 --> 00:54:57.898
Different

00:54:58.168 --> 00:55:00.538
Sam: individuals and that
illusion creates so much harm.

00:55:00.808 --> 00:55:01.288
Joe: And yeah.

00:55:01.288 --> 00:55:07.318
And the discourse, the hyper identitarian
discourse that took over the progressive

00:55:07.318 --> 00:55:11.678
left is focus on race, gender, and

00:55:11.678 --> 00:55:12.038
Sam: stuff.

00:55:12.038 --> 00:55:13.808
And it's created a lot
of perverse outcomes.

00:55:13.808 --> 00:55:18.158
Joe: Like it created this, it's reinforced
the illusion that we're separate

00:55:18.458 --> 00:55:21.398
individuals, uh, at war with each other.

00:55:21.458 --> 00:55:21.848
That's right.

00:55:21.848 --> 00:55:22.718
And it's not true.

00:55:22.718 --> 00:55:24.398
Like we're actually just one.

00:55:24.673 --> 00:55:26.593
It's a whole thing happening at one time.

00:55:27.463 --> 00:55:31.223
Suffering, and suffering a lot,
under the illusion of being alone,

00:55:31.263 --> 00:55:36.303
separate, vulnerable, and at war with
each other based on skin, gender,

00:55:36.693 --> 00:55:38.443
class, all of that stuff, right?

00:55:38.453 --> 00:55:40.603
So that's the big Zoom ride out.

00:55:40.845 --> 00:55:42.935
But yeah, I think that's probably
a good place to leave it.

00:55:42.935 --> 00:55:44.995
Ali, do you have anything
more to say on, uh...

00:55:45.485 --> 00:55:46.925
Are the blokes okay?

00:55:47.645 --> 00:55:50.115
Ali: Oh look, I, I think
they are and they aren't.

00:55:50.155 --> 00:55:54.585
Like, we, but there's a lot we
can, yeah, like a long way to go.

00:55:55.675 --> 00:55:57.435
Sam: Some of them are doing
far too well for themselves.

00:55:57.445 --> 00:55:57.725
Yes.

00:55:57.735 --> 00:56:00.105
And some of them are in
absolute dire straits.

00:56:00.105 --> 00:56:01.465
Yeah, absolutely.

00:56:01.615 --> 00:56:01.955
Yeah.

00:56:02.045 --> 00:56:02.295
Like, and

00:56:02.295 --> 00:56:03.185
Ali: that's just not okay.

00:56:03.365 --> 00:56:08.305
No, and we, and we all need to, we
all need tools to, to dismantle the

00:56:08.305 --> 00:56:09.025
Sam: patriarchy.

00:56:09.265 --> 00:56:09.705
That's right.

00:56:09.705 --> 00:56:10.035
We all do.

00:56:10.105 --> 00:56:13.115
Joe: Alright, well, I'm looking
forward to our Barbie episode where...

00:56:13.685 --> 00:56:16.935
Ali, you can woman splain the
patriarchy to me at greater length.

00:56:16.935 --> 00:56:19.715
And Sam, can Sam splain it to me?

00:56:19.925 --> 00:56:20.695
Sam: No, no, no.

00:56:20.725 --> 00:56:23.105
In the Barbie EP, I'll
be given a time quota.

00:56:23.945 --> 00:56:26.235
And Ali will be given
a minimum time quota.

00:56:27.165 --> 00:56:27.645
Joe: Yeah.

00:56:27.705 --> 00:56:31.525
It's a funny thing, because
it's not a feigned ignorance.

00:56:31.565 --> 00:56:36.285
Like, I have some, not emotional,
I struggle with the emotions,

00:56:36.285 --> 00:56:37.475
I'm working on that in therapy.

00:56:37.505 --> 00:56:40.595
But, I have some cognitive horsepower.

00:56:41.165 --> 00:56:44.165
But then there's some things that
I come across, like the patriarchy,

00:56:44.165 --> 00:56:47.465
which I read and I talk to people
and I try and understand it.

00:56:47.795 --> 00:56:50.865
It just doesn't get in,
and I don't then walk out.

00:56:50.865 --> 00:56:54.985
I don't walk out onto the
street in Thornbury and see

00:56:54.985 --> 00:56:57.045
the patriarchy everywhere.

00:56:57.075 --> 00:56:57.535
I don't.

00:56:57.535 --> 00:57:00.795
I just see something like
what I've always seen.

00:57:00.815 --> 00:57:01.445
That's the point though.

00:57:01.905 --> 00:57:03.775
The lens doesn't ever drop into place.

00:57:03.785 --> 00:57:04.155
That's why

00:57:04.155 --> 00:57:05.430
Sam: it's so insidious.

00:57:05.590 --> 00:57:07.720
Yeah, so it's operations are

00:57:07.720 --> 00:57:08.310
Joe: invisible.

00:57:08.370 --> 00:57:10.440
I think it doesn't have
to be a feigned ignorance.

00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:13.520
I think it's a good discussion
because you two get it and I don't.

00:57:13.540 --> 00:57:16.970
So I think hopefully for the listeners,
it can be something we come back to.

00:57:17.570 --> 00:57:21.270
Um, because what I'm not questioning
is that everyone else is right

00:57:21.270 --> 00:57:23.820
and they, they know what it is.

00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:25.710
I'm just saying, I don't
fucking know what it is.

00:57:25.980 --> 00:57:27.610
And I only ever knew.

00:57:28.045 --> 00:57:31.735
Enough to think that it benefited
me, but where I've ended it up, quite

00:57:31.775 --> 00:57:37.175
economically vulnerable and Yes,
kind of unhappy in areas of my life.

00:57:37.175 --> 00:57:40.865
It's like some of this is because I don't
understand the patriarchy Oh, I certainly

00:57:40.865 --> 00:57:43.815
don't understand the pitfalls of it.

00:57:43.865 --> 00:57:44.325
You know,

00:57:44.555 --> 00:57:48.035
Sam: we're operating in well This is what
Gramsci would call false consciousness

00:57:48.345 --> 00:57:52.345
where you're like you know, you're like
the worker that doesn't realize you're

00:57:52.345 --> 00:57:58.190
underpaid And you're like the bloke who
doesn't realize that You've got this

00:57:58.250 --> 00:58:03.420
tiny, you've got this like, little bit of
pointless privilege, but look at the dis

00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:08.440
privilege that, like, that comes with it,
that you're ignoring, and that the, the

00:58:08.630 --> 00:58:15.360
same system that's like keeping down your
wife or partner is At least indirectly, if

00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:17.140
not directly, also keeping you down as a

00:58:17.530 --> 00:58:17.880
Joe: consequence.

00:58:17.900 --> 00:58:22.730
And when I look at the line, it's like my
grandfather mercilessly beat my father.

00:58:23.350 --> 00:58:27.030
My father mercilessly belittled
me instead of beating me.

00:58:27.530 --> 00:58:30.570
But with my daughters, I
wouldn't belittle or beat them.

00:58:31.170 --> 00:58:32.320
And that's what's happened.

00:58:32.350 --> 00:58:33.660
That's how we're getting better.

00:58:34.150 --> 00:58:34.300
Yeah.

00:58:34.300 --> 00:58:34.480
Yeah.

00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:35.650
Well, as a society, you, I mean,

00:58:35.740 --> 00:58:37.870
Sam: there, there is good news
here that the patriarchy does

00:58:37.870 --> 00:58:39.190
not have the stranglehold at

00:58:39.190 --> 00:58:39.460
Joe: once.

00:58:39.490 --> 00:58:39.730
Yeah.

00:58:39.790 --> 00:58:40.570
And I agree with you.

00:58:40.570 --> 00:58:44.620
I wanna kind of be role, I'm terrified
for my teenage daughters just 'cause of

00:58:44.620 --> 00:58:47.000
the stats around self-harm and, and yeah.

00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:48.120
That's not great depression.

00:58:48.520 --> 00:58:48.730
Yeah.

00:58:48.820 --> 00:58:51.670
So I want to try and be a
role model for them too.

00:58:51.700 --> 00:58:54.280
But the best I can come up
with is to be a pretty stable,

00:58:54.280 --> 00:58:57.490
steady, calm, sober presence.

00:58:57.490 --> 00:58:57.760
Big time.

00:58:57.760 --> 00:58:58.060
Right.

00:58:58.120 --> 00:58:58.450
Big time.

00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:01.930
Um, but, so actually my
work won't be really with.

00:59:02.585 --> 00:59:05.995
Boys and young men my work's gonna be
with you with girls and young women

00:59:06.005 --> 00:59:09.525
because that's what I've got That's your
primary unless I turn around and become

00:59:09.525 --> 00:59:13.355
a teacher one day I'm not gonna be doing
a lot of that or you know Volunteer

00:59:13.355 --> 00:59:16.205
at a junior cricket club or something
which I could do so you'd make a great

00:59:16.365 --> 00:59:16.425
Sam: teacher.

00:59:17.375 --> 00:59:22.729
Joe: Yeah But there's a lot Yeah,
I hope Bron who sent us this idea.

00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:23.759
Thank you for that, Bron.

00:59:23.819 --> 00:59:24.939
Yeah, really, cheers.

00:59:24.939 --> 00:59:28.339
We all kind of, sorry if you're
a massive Mia fan, we all found

00:59:28.339 --> 00:59:31.849
her a bit annoying, but there
was a lot of good ideas in there.

00:59:31.849 --> 00:59:33.259
Joe has a crush on her though, too, so.

00:59:33.259 --> 00:59:36.209
And yeah, Bron, I'd be interested
to hear your feedback because, um.

00:59:37.114 --> 00:59:40.304
Yeah, Bron's a woman who I think has some
really interesting perspectives on this.

00:59:40.634 --> 00:59:41.224
Oh, I want

00:59:41.224 --> 00:59:43.234
Sam: to know what she
thinks about Caitlyn Monroe.

00:59:43.294 --> 00:59:44.104
Yeah,

00:59:44.144 --> 00:59:48.164
Joe: I think she's an older woman
who thinks men have copped it a

00:59:48.164 --> 00:59:51.824
bit hard in the last 20 years,
even though she's a feminist.

00:59:51.834 --> 00:59:52.464
So,

00:59:52.544 --> 00:59:56.724
Sam: well, it is, it is often older
women who are not, that are no longer

00:59:56.734 --> 00:59:59.904
in the thick of it with child rearing
and balancing work and all of that.

00:59:59.924 --> 01:00:01.454
They tend to be able to see
it a little more easily.

01:00:01.454 --> 01:00:01.494
Sorry,

01:00:02.914 --> 01:00:06.004
Joe: Bron, if I'm putting words in your
mouth, but that's always the impression

01:00:06.004 --> 01:00:07.514
I got from you was that you have a...

01:00:07.534 --> 01:00:10.794
A bit of a sympathetic
view of, yeah, yeah.

01:00:11.170 --> 01:00:13.360
Ali: I was just going to say, yeah,
like when you say in the thick of it,

01:00:13.670 --> 01:00:16.180
you know, like the things that the
second wave feminists were fighting

01:00:16.180 --> 01:00:20.140
for were like, you know, you know,
reproductive rights, equal pay, you

01:00:20.140 --> 01:00:21.360
know, or being Access to the workplace.

01:00:21.870 --> 01:00:22.810
All those sorts of things.

01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:25.680
They've fundamentally achieved
those things within their lifetime

01:00:25.680 --> 01:00:27.560
and it's now these other things.

01:00:27.590 --> 01:00:28.690
So, yeah.

01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:34.005
Sam: And, of course, the second wave
that is still among us would often

01:00:34.005 --> 01:00:38.790
be the first to point out that the
benefits they managed to win were not

01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:41.780
an unalloyed benefit to women after all.

01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:44.590
And there were other feminists at
the time who were saying, we need to

01:00:44.590 --> 01:00:47.360
go way past workforce participation.

01:00:47.810 --> 01:00:50.840
We need to go to ownership of the
means of production, and there were

01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:52.400
people saying that from the beginning.

01:00:52.680 --> 01:00:55.390
But we're not going to sneeze on those
achievements, but we are going to

01:00:55.390 --> 01:01:01.140
say It, you know, gaining workforce
participation has ultimately just meant

01:01:01.870 --> 01:01:03.970
that now everyone's under the pump.

01:01:04.080 --> 01:01:04.300
Yeah.

01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:06.110
In a different way to before.

01:01:06.130 --> 01:01:06.350
Yeah.

01:01:06.680 --> 01:01:10.890
You know, like imagine, I mean, like,
but the idea of like Jordan Peterson

01:01:10.890 --> 01:01:14.275
and the rest of them, like the idea
of women going back to just not.

01:01:15.505 --> 01:01:17.985
Viewing that as an option
is just like, what the hell?

01:01:18.485 --> 01:01:20.445
It's clearly a nonsense.

01:01:20.845 --> 01:01:23.545
But the idea that you get, everyone
gets to slave their guts out and

01:01:23.555 --> 01:01:25.115
barely keep a roof over their heads.

01:01:25.115 --> 01:01:25.695
Well, that's just nonsense.

01:01:25.765 --> 01:01:26.615
That's also not good.

01:01:26.745 --> 01:01:26.865
Yeah.

01:01:28.505 --> 01:01:31.435
And yeah, and so I, I, so thank,
anyway, thank you to Caitlin

01:01:31.435 --> 01:01:32.815
Moran and thank you to Bron.

01:01:32.825 --> 01:01:32.845
Yeah.

01:01:32.855 --> 01:01:33.085
Yeah.

01:01:33.405 --> 01:01:33.755
Thanks

01:01:34.775 --> 01:01:35.065
Joe: Bron.

01:01:35.075 --> 01:01:36.135
See you next week, guys.

01:01:36.535 --> 01:01:36.575
Sam: See ya.

01:01:37.385 --> 01:01:37.885
See ya.