WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.460 Barry Lam: So like my dream is that like it is part of a local university's 00:00:05.460 --> 00:00:10.560 mission, that they are going to make stuff, and put it out there for public 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:14.910 consumption on the local public television channels, that is about the kind of 00:00:15.210 --> 00:00:21.360 knowledge being produced there, in a way that captures the spirit of not just 00:00:21.360 --> 00:00:26.100 the university, but public broadcasting, which is that there are certain things 00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:31.334 that don't make money, but contribute to a greater good in the culture. 00:00:33.135 --> 00:00:34.434 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies. 00:00:34.464 --> 00:00:38.324 A podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:38.504 --> 00:00:42.435 I'm Neil McPhedran from Higher Ed Pods and Podium Podcast. 00:00:43.004 --> 00:00:45.824 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, owner of JPod Creations. 00:00:45.824 --> 00:00:48.135 Podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:48.165 --> 00:00:52.065 And we want you to know that you're not alone in this podcasting space, 00:00:52.305 --> 00:00:53.894 and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:54.045 --> 00:00:55.004 Neil McPhedran: Yes, that's right, Jen. 00:00:55.215 --> 00:00:59.420 If you listened to our previous episode, we're starting a new little segment 00:00:59.420 --> 00:01:03.350 here where we're trying to get some dialogue going with our listeners. 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:07.460 Last time we were asking about launching and whether you wanna 00:01:07.460 --> 00:01:09.560 launch with one or two episodes. 00:01:09.710 --> 00:01:13.250 And in this episode, what we'd like to know is if anyone out there who 00:01:13.250 --> 00:01:20.450 has been podcasting audio only for the last one or two years and is about 00:01:20.450 --> 00:01:24.320 to start to layer on video, there's a lot of conversation about it. 00:01:24.645 --> 00:01:25.695 But we'd love to hear from you. 00:01:25.695 --> 00:01:29.955 If you are in that boat, send us a note and tell us about, uh, your 00:01:29.955 --> 00:01:32.340 journey, and we'll talk about it on one of our upcoming episodes. 00:01:33.225 --> 00:01:34.995 Jennifer-Lee: Very excited to hear from you. 00:01:35.265 --> 00:01:35.775 Neil McPhedran: Yes. 00:01:35.925 --> 00:01:39.025 So in this episode, Jen, we speak with Barry Lam. 00:01:39.255 --> 00:01:44.835 Barry is professor of philosophy at the University of California 00:01:44.865 --> 00:01:50.355 Riverside, and he is creator, host of the acclaimed narrative 00:01:50.355 --> 00:01:52.790 philosophy podcast, Hi-Phi Nation. 00:01:53.085 --> 00:01:54.705 It is an excellent podcast. 00:01:54.705 --> 00:01:57.525 I recommend you all give it a listen. 00:01:57.585 --> 00:02:00.285 We'll obviously put a link in the show notes. 00:02:00.600 --> 00:02:07.770 So I met Barry in New York a few weeks back, and Barry was one of 00:02:07.770 --> 00:02:12.990 the panelists at this symposium that I attended that was titled Podcast 00:02:12.990 --> 00:02:17.820 Intellectuals: Producing Original Scholarship with Audio, and it was 00:02:17.820 --> 00:02:24.270 hosted at the Arthur L. Carter Journalism Institute at New York University. 00:02:24.480 --> 00:02:27.390 So Barry actually took part in two of the panels. 00:02:27.450 --> 00:02:32.235 One was titled, How Do Scholars Make Podcasts, which was very 00:02:32.235 --> 00:02:33.555 interesting, we get into that. 00:02:33.615 --> 00:02:39.255 And the other session he sat in on had a really provocative title called 00:02:39.255 --> 00:02:41.685 Can Podcasts Save the University? 00:02:41.775 --> 00:02:44.985 And there was sort of a sub context to it from itself. 00:02:45.135 --> 00:02:46.095 Super interesting. 00:02:46.185 --> 00:02:49.245 And I learned so much from Barry. 00:02:49.245 --> 00:02:51.075 So I went up to him after and I said, Barry, you gotta 00:02:51.075 --> 00:02:52.395 come on Continuing Studies. 00:02:52.395 --> 00:02:53.865 So that's what we're doing today. 00:02:53.865 --> 00:03:00.065 So in this conversation following today we chat with Barry about his journey 00:03:00.070 --> 00:03:04.980 from traditional academic scholarship into the world of podcasting, sort 00:03:04.980 --> 00:03:09.210 of, and specifically how Hi-Phi Nation bridges that philosophical 00:03:09.210 --> 00:03:12.180 research and narrative audio. 00:03:12.180 --> 00:03:13.200 Really interesting. 00:03:13.320 --> 00:03:17.610 And then how that fits into his scholarly mission and his academia 00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:19.680 and his academic approach as well too. 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:22.500 So, and then we have a little bit of a larger conversation about 00:03:22.500 --> 00:03:26.880 the broader implications for academia and the podcasting itself. 00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:29.880 So really interesting conversation with Barry. 00:03:29.945 --> 00:03:31.055 Jennifer-Lee: Very interesting. 00:03:31.174 --> 00:03:32.495 So let's get started. 00:03:32.855 --> 00:03:33.364 Neil McPhedran: Let's go. 00:03:35.945 --> 00:03:38.975 Barry, it's so great to have you join us here on this 00:03:38.975 --> 00:03:40.655 episode of Continuing Studies. 00:03:40.954 --> 00:03:42.035 Barry Lam: I'm so happy to be here. 00:03:42.035 --> 00:03:43.325 Excited to talk to you both. 00:03:43.385 --> 00:03:43.834 Neil McPhedran: Great. 00:03:43.924 --> 00:03:48.035 So Barry, you were part of two really fascinating panels at the 00:03:48.065 --> 00:03:51.760 Podcast Intellectual Symposium at NYU a few weeks back. 00:03:52.755 --> 00:03:57.195 One of them, really the final one of the day, really caught my attention, 00:03:57.195 --> 00:04:00.135 has actually really gotten me thinking over the last bunch of weeks. 00:04:00.135 --> 00:04:02.745 The title was Can Podcast Save the University? 00:04:02.805 --> 00:04:07.605 So we're gonna dig into that, but I'd also love to get into your 00:04:07.635 --> 00:04:12.704 experience creating Hi-Phi Nation, which is just an amazing podcast. 00:04:12.704 --> 00:04:15.555 And as aside, before I met you or was introduced to you, I was a 00:04:15.555 --> 00:04:17.714 listener of it and quite enjoyed it. 00:04:17.714 --> 00:04:19.995 So maybe let's start with Hi-Phi Nation. 00:04:20.060 --> 00:04:26.720 What first drew you to podcasting as a medium for philosophical storytelling? 00:04:27.170 --> 00:04:28.790 Barry Lam: Happy to hear that you're a listener. 00:04:28.790 --> 00:04:31.490 There's gonna be a new season coming out in the new year. 00:04:31.550 --> 00:04:36.080 I've been really busy with the academic side in a way that I wasn't for the 00:04:36.080 --> 00:04:37.970 previous, whatever it was, six seasons. 00:04:38.300 --> 00:04:40.700 So looking forward to putting it out there. 00:04:40.820 --> 00:04:49.010 I was in my first sabbatical after tenure, and this was 2015, and I just 00:04:49.515 --> 00:04:57.885 felt like 2014, 2015 was kind of like, I wanna say the rise of the academic 00:04:57.885 --> 00:05:01.065 adjacent documentary kind of podcast. 00:05:01.125 --> 00:05:05.835 So sort of precursors to my show, which were very big shows, some of 00:05:05.835 --> 00:05:09.645 which are still on, some of which aren't, were like NPRs Invisibilia, 00:05:09.645 --> 00:05:14.085 which was kind of like the show that married narrative storytelling with 00:05:14.925 --> 00:05:18.765 essentially research psychology, both cognitive and social psychology. 00:05:19.245 --> 00:05:24.105 And of course even predating that was Stephen Dubner's Freakonomics, which 00:05:24.105 --> 00:05:29.594 was one of the very first things to take very technical economics research 00:05:29.594 --> 00:05:33.885 by scholars in the academy and pair it with ordinary journalism, right? 00:05:33.885 --> 00:05:35.475 The kind of things that are going on in the world. 00:05:35.475 --> 00:05:37.830 Economics was a great field for that. 00:05:38.100 --> 00:05:40.560 And I just wanted to, you know, first sabbatical after tenure, 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.020 it was like, where are these other papers you could publish? 00:05:43.200 --> 00:05:44.760 And I just didn't wanna work on them. 00:05:44.760 --> 00:05:47.280 I couldn't find myself motivated to work on them anymore. 00:05:47.610 --> 00:05:50.940 And there was this medium, and of course there are the artsier types. 00:05:50.940 --> 00:05:55.620 You know, Radio Lab has always been a show that paired storytelling 00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:57.110 with scientific research. 00:05:57.260 --> 00:06:00.240 Sometimes even the hard sciences, you know, cosmology, 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:01.410 biology, things like that. 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:03.720 I wanted to learn how to do that, and I wanted to learn how 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:04.950 to do that just by doing it. 00:06:05.310 --> 00:06:06.840 And so that's exactly what I did. 00:06:07.140 --> 00:06:10.710 You know, I literally Googled Ira Glass, how do you make a 00:06:11.039 --> 00:06:12.210 episode of This American Life? 00:06:12.570 --> 00:06:16.770 And he actually gave a interview where he talks about the technicalities. 00:06:16.770 --> 00:06:18.719 He says, I buy this microphone. 00:06:18.719 --> 00:06:20.650 It's an Audio-Technica 8035. 00:06:20.844 --> 00:06:24.505 They use like a marantz recorder, and then he says, well, this is 00:06:24.505 --> 00:06:25.705 how I prep for the interview. 00:06:25.705 --> 00:06:28.344 And then after the interview I transcribe by hand the whole thing. 00:06:28.344 --> 00:06:32.305 And as I transcribe each interview by hand, then I highlight, or like 00:06:32.305 --> 00:06:35.965 I pull out different things that I think are great quotes, and then 00:06:35.965 --> 00:06:39.534 when I take all the quotes together, I can kind of foresee the story and 00:06:39.534 --> 00:06:40.765 then I can start writing around it. 00:06:41.245 --> 00:06:42.085 I just did that. 00:06:42.115 --> 00:06:42.925 I just did that. 00:06:42.925 --> 00:06:46.195 I, you know, I did that for the very first story. 00:06:46.905 --> 00:06:49.664 Which I, at that time, I called it the pilot episode and it 00:06:49.664 --> 00:06:51.734 took me two months to make it. 00:06:51.780 --> 00:06:53.054 It took me four months total. 00:06:53.054 --> 00:06:55.594 It took me about two months to collect the interviews. 00:06:56.104 --> 00:06:58.844 And then it took me another two months to learn how to make that, and 00:06:58.844 --> 00:07:02.625 then that's, you can still hear it, it's episodes two and three of the 00:07:02.625 --> 00:07:06.585 first season, Soldier Philosophers, and that's how it all got started. 00:07:06.974 --> 00:07:07.575 Jennifer-Lee: That's so cool. 00:07:07.695 --> 00:07:10.304 Just a quick question on that, because you talked about having to 00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:13.725 actually pick out the clips yourself. 00:07:13.875 --> 00:07:18.135 Now, with AI, obviously they have tools that do it for you, but do you think 00:07:18.195 --> 00:07:22.035 being such a great storyteller and listening to these prominent people 00:07:22.065 --> 00:07:27.555 that do Serial and other things like that, do you think AI can top that 00:07:27.555 --> 00:07:31.284 or do you think it picks the clips that you would predominantly go with? 00:07:31.765 --> 00:07:35.575 Barry Lam: The one thing that AI has greatly improved in my own workflow 00:07:35.724 --> 00:07:39.354 has just been like, I don't have to transcribe anything anymore. 00:07:39.625 --> 00:07:42.744 You know, in the beginning I had to transcribe everything by hand, 00:07:42.744 --> 00:07:46.465 and then I had research students do that, and now it's instantaneous. 00:07:47.085 --> 00:07:51.855 The hardest part of the job is organizing all of that into a coherent 00:07:51.855 --> 00:07:53.685 story and then writing the narrative. 00:07:53.685 --> 00:07:55.104 That's what takes the longest, right? 00:07:55.104 --> 00:07:59.385 It takes like 80 hours total for about a 45 minute episode to make 00:07:59.715 --> 00:08:01.995 that, and I, I've tried, right? 00:08:01.995 --> 00:08:08.325 I've actually decided to use the LLMs as a kind of editor. 00:08:09.225 --> 00:08:10.455 Like write me an intro. 00:08:10.515 --> 00:08:15.195 And the thing is, it's trained on my stuff so I can actually tell it to 00:08:15.195 --> 00:08:19.035 write, 'cause I've been around long enough that I say write it, the intro 00:08:19.035 --> 00:08:23.325 in the style of a Barry Lam Hi-Phi Nation episode and it's got, whatever 00:08:23.325 --> 00:08:26.205 it is, 60 whatever episodes to go on. 00:08:26.445 --> 00:08:30.255 So it's got my voice down okay. 00:08:30.615 --> 00:08:35.505 And I have noticed it's helpful for me to ask it, to do it in the styles of 00:08:35.505 --> 00:08:40.335 all these other people that have their very own distinctive kind of voices. 00:08:40.664 --> 00:08:43.815 But I would never use that because it's kind of like 00:08:43.815 --> 00:08:45.675 doing an impersonation, right? 00:08:45.675 --> 00:08:50.245 It's kind of like if I were going to do a cover of a song and then I, I, 00:08:50.295 --> 00:08:53.715 I could sing it the way I would sing it, or I could impersonate whoever. 00:08:54.090 --> 00:08:56.790 In podcasting, it would sound like that too, right? 00:08:56.790 --> 00:09:00.420 There are people with distinctive voices and the AI can impersonate 00:09:00.420 --> 00:09:03.240 them, or it can be completely boring. 00:09:03.660 --> 00:09:08.580 But the act of giving AI the thing to do, no, I don't think 00:09:08.580 --> 00:09:10.920 it could, that could pull it off. 00:09:11.370 --> 00:09:13.140 Neil McPhedran: I think that's really interesting. 00:09:13.410 --> 00:09:17.819 You are coming from an academic position, so there's some rigor, some academic 00:09:17.819 --> 00:09:23.910 rigor, versus just non-academic podcasts that maybe can grab more from the 00:09:23.910 --> 00:09:26.700 AI or be more loosened and whatnot. 00:09:26.700 --> 00:09:30.420 It's still about the academia, you know, that's still a really important component 00:09:30.420 --> 00:09:34.590 and you're a professor and academic, so I think that's probably why you're 00:09:34.590 --> 00:09:36.360 still putting that much work into it. 00:09:36.690 --> 00:09:38.220 Barry Lam: Yeah, I think that's half of it. 00:09:38.310 --> 00:09:43.110 So the show is, hopefully, doesn't come across as it's done by an 00:09:43.110 --> 00:09:45.420 academic 'cause I try not to, right? 00:09:45.470 --> 00:09:46.190 Neil McPhedran: No, it does not. 00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:49.740 Barry Lam: So it, it's actually modeled after just what you 00:09:49.740 --> 00:09:54.630 would call classic public radio kind of documentary type audio. 00:09:55.110 --> 00:09:58.230 And what I bring to it is, you're absolutely right about that. 00:09:58.510 --> 00:10:02.460 A ordinary reporter who doesn't have a PhD in philosophy would not be 00:10:02.790 --> 00:10:04.599 framing things the way that I would. 00:10:04.680 --> 00:10:10.560 You know, I've actually done pieces for Radio Lab and they actually cut out 90%. 00:10:10.920 --> 00:10:13.590 They're like, oh, you know, our listeners aren't gonna be interested 00:10:13.590 --> 00:10:18.314 in the ins and outs of labor policy or labor ethics or whatever it is. 00:10:18.375 --> 00:10:21.255 But I'm interested in that and my listeners are, but that's just because 00:10:21.255 --> 00:10:24.194 when you're an academic, you kind of like nerding out just a little bit 00:10:24.194 --> 00:10:26.655 more than a journalist would, right? 00:10:26.655 --> 00:10:27.545 And that shows. 00:10:27.935 --> 00:10:29.265 I think that's only half of it though. 00:10:29.265 --> 00:10:31.725 I think, you know, like there are so many different ways to 00:10:31.785 --> 00:10:33.135 tell a story, for instance. 00:10:33.510 --> 00:10:37.680 So every episode of Hi-Phi Nation's got like half philosophy, half storytelling, 00:10:37.949 --> 00:10:40.740 and the storytelling is like something happened in the world to somebody. 00:10:41.160 --> 00:10:44.640 And that person experienced a series of events, right? 00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:45.750 And there were stakes involved. 00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:47.699 There were losses, or there were gains, right? 00:10:47.760 --> 00:10:52.740 And the way you tell that is different depending on your angle, right? 00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:56.610 Like the tabloidy version and what the angle would be. 00:10:57.030 --> 00:10:59.850 You could have the economics version of that, right? 00:10:59.880 --> 00:11:04.275 You could have the social psychologist angle on that. 00:11:04.695 --> 00:11:09.975 All of these things have different angles to which affects the structuring 00:11:09.975 --> 00:11:11.505 of the way you do your story. 00:11:11.715 --> 00:11:16.665 I'm not an AI disaster kind of person, but I'm pessimistic about its ability 00:11:16.665 --> 00:11:21.615 to do better than any of us right now, but, which is not to say that 00:11:21.615 --> 00:11:23.025 it can't do better than beginners. 00:11:23.175 --> 00:11:23.820 I was a beginner. 00:11:24.464 --> 00:11:27.645 But I think after you had some experience, you kind of don't 00:11:27.645 --> 00:11:31.214 rely on it because it just doesn't produce something that's usable. 00:11:31.395 --> 00:11:35.295 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I think the important thing is that it's not 00:11:35.295 --> 00:11:40.155 necessarily fact checking as well, and we're just taking it as gospel. 00:11:40.305 --> 00:11:43.635 You can't do that because it's gonna be misinformation out there. 00:11:43.635 --> 00:11:47.685 And did you ever feel that you were like taking a risk by prioritizing 00:11:47.685 --> 00:11:53.084 podcasting over like more traditional academic heavy research publishing? 00:11:53.505 --> 00:11:54.194 Barry Lam: Yeah. 00:11:54.285 --> 00:11:58.245 You know, it's interesting that you talk about it in terms of taking a risk. 00:11:59.055 --> 00:12:04.084 My thought at the time was that I was half out the door in academia. 00:12:04.134 --> 00:12:08.699 I realized as I was making the pilot and doing that work, that really what was 00:12:08.699 --> 00:12:10.560 going on was I was really burned out. 00:12:11.310 --> 00:12:15.270 I couldn't even tell you today what side of academia I was burned out on. 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:19.380 Was it like the teaching of the same kinds of things over and over, 00:12:19.589 --> 00:12:22.319 for at that point 10 years, maybe. 00:12:22.410 --> 00:12:24.060 I'm not sure I changed things up. 00:12:24.329 --> 00:12:28.469 Was it like the peer review journal publication thing? 00:12:29.040 --> 00:12:35.520 So because I was feeling so burned out, I thought to myself that I'll 00:12:35.520 --> 00:12:39.750 just do something else and not care what my academic peers think about it. 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:46.800 And so when I advise people today in the academic space, they think of it 00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:50.580 as risky because they really wanna rise in the ranks of the academic 00:12:50.865 --> 00:12:52.695 prestige hierarchy, and so forth. 00:12:52.935 --> 00:12:56.745 Insofar as that is your goal, it is kind of risky, I think. 00:12:56.955 --> 00:13:02.985 It is risking it because the incentives involved in producing something like 00:13:02.985 --> 00:13:07.395 Hi-Phi Nation are very different than the incentives in academia, and I don't 00:13:07.395 --> 00:13:12.135 mean that just by monetary incentives or career incentives, like your 00:13:12.135 --> 00:13:15.495 concrete goal is to be entertaining. 00:13:15.915 --> 00:13:20.805 When you make  Hi-Phi Nation, your concrete goal in academia is to make 00:13:20.805 --> 00:13:26.535 sure that two peer experts don't think that it is unworthy of publication. 00:13:27.045 --> 00:13:30.765 And those are two very different kinds of goals when you're 00:13:30.765 --> 00:13:32.505 producing a thing, right? 00:13:32.505 --> 00:13:37.964 For instance, the whole academic thing requires you to be acculturated into 00:13:37.964 --> 00:13:41.074 citation practices of your discipline. 00:13:41.074 --> 00:13:46.015 If you don't cite the right people or enough people, it's just something wrong 00:13:46.015 --> 00:13:47.335 with the thing that you're producing. 00:13:47.335 --> 00:13:50.125 So the fact checking thing I think is important. 00:13:50.455 --> 00:13:51.235 Very important. 00:13:51.235 --> 00:13:55.345 And that's, the incentives are kind of different there too, right? 00:13:55.345 --> 00:14:00.445 So in storytelling, everything you do has to tell some part of the story and 00:14:00.445 --> 00:14:02.425 not some other part of the story, right? 00:14:02.695 --> 00:14:06.845 And people get on journalists all the time for getting it wrong, and I do too. 00:14:06.965 --> 00:14:09.985 For getting it like wrong or misleading, right? 00:14:09.985 --> 00:14:10.525 And so forth. 00:14:10.525 --> 00:14:14.564 So I think academics do it better then they do when it comes to the 00:14:14.564 --> 00:14:19.364 facts and like representing the views of a certain scientist or a certain 00:14:19.574 --> 00:14:24.074 economist or, or academic correctly, or a certain historical figure correctly, 00:14:24.074 --> 00:14:25.214 I think we do better than that. 00:14:25.469 --> 00:14:31.320 But the medium itself incentivizes, not that, but the most 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:33.870 entertaining structure or bit. 00:14:33.930 --> 00:14:34.140 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:14:34.290 --> 00:14:38.790 Barry Lam: And so because those are sort of at odds, it is risky, right? 00:14:38.790 --> 00:14:43.290 So that's why when you hear things made by myself or like Jill Lepore, 00:14:43.470 --> 00:14:46.560 it sounds completely different than the thing that Malcolm Gladwell makes. 00:14:46.830 --> 00:14:47.250 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:14:47.760 --> 00:14:52.110 Well, I think that's a good segue into digging more deeply into 00:14:52.110 --> 00:14:54.090 podcasting as scholarship then. 00:14:54.615 --> 00:15:00.225 During the podcast intellectuals discussion, there was this recurring 00:15:00.225 --> 00:15:04.845 theme about how academia still treats the written monograph, and you kind 00:15:04.845 --> 00:15:08.955 of touched on it a bit there in your previous answer, but treats the written 00:15:08.955 --> 00:15:11.835 monograph as the currency of scholarship. 00:15:11.835 --> 00:15:15.765 I think that was the term that one of your fellow panelists utilized there. 00:15:16.245 --> 00:15:17.355 Why do you think that is? 00:15:17.355 --> 00:15:20.385 And then more so, how does podcasting challenge that a bit? 00:15:20.625 --> 00:15:22.455 Barry Lam: There's so many reasons why that is. 00:15:22.635 --> 00:15:26.445 The simplest reason is that it's just, that's how academies were founded. 00:15:27.045 --> 00:15:30.945 They were founded on written texts and archiving, right? 00:15:30.975 --> 00:15:33.285 The medieval university is what I'm thinking of. 00:15:33.435 --> 00:15:35.775 It's what academics are trained to be good at. 00:15:36.015 --> 00:15:38.565 People recreate the conditions of their own success. 00:15:39.270 --> 00:15:42.210 The people who write the best papers are the people who are in the humanities 00:15:42.210 --> 00:15:43.830 and social science departments. 00:15:43.830 --> 00:15:46.500 The people who were bad at that did not succeed enough to go on 00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:48.900 through and get PhDs and so forth. 00:15:48.990 --> 00:15:49.470 That's one. 00:15:49.800 --> 00:15:53.370 And then there are the material reasons, which is that the thing that 00:15:53.970 --> 00:15:58.230 academics are supposed to produce are supposed to be archivable in libraries. 00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:00.930 That's the audience for the monograph. 00:16:00.930 --> 00:16:06.540 Like some of it is your peers who buy it, but you know that's probably gonna be, 00:16:07.350 --> 00:16:09.960 if you're lucky, a couple hundred, right? 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:15.000 Mostly all of these books from academic presses are sold to libraries for 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.800 future research purposes, and these are all good things, but it means 00:16:19.800 --> 00:16:24.180 that the priority in the evaluation of whether an academic is doing a good 00:16:24.180 --> 00:16:28.140 job is the production of something that's in print and that's archived. 00:16:28.680 --> 00:16:30.810 Neil McPhedran: You were actually quite open with the group that was 00:16:30.810 --> 00:16:35.550 there that day and you shared with us, and hopefully you're okay sharing 00:16:35.550 --> 00:16:38.729 on this podcast as well too, that a Hi-Phi Nation actually played a 00:16:38.729 --> 00:16:41.579 role in your hiring at UC Riverside. 00:16:41.670 --> 00:16:45.569 What did that process reveal about how universities might be starting to 00:16:45.569 --> 00:16:48.060 rethink what counts as scholarship? 00:16:48.569 --> 00:16:52.020 Barry Lam: I do actually think that universities are rethinking 00:16:52.439 --> 00:16:53.550 what counts as scholarship. 00:16:53.550 --> 00:16:56.490 It's just, it's slow and it's not like systematic. 00:16:56.490 --> 00:17:00.435 It's not coming from, you know, any big, huge trends. 00:17:00.675 --> 00:17:03.405 So I'll talk about my story first and then generalize. 00:17:03.885 --> 00:17:09.345 So I started the show, first season came out 2017, the beginning of 00:17:09.345 --> 00:17:14.175 2017, you know, so I spent 2015, 2016 working on it, that first season. 00:17:14.714 --> 00:17:19.214 And then I got basically a fellowship, a grant for essentially my whole 00:17:19.214 --> 00:17:24.105 salary paid for a year to make the first season of the show at Duke. 00:17:24.165 --> 00:17:27.839 It was one of these Mellon grants for faculty from liberal arts 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:31.560 colleges who were doing non-standard projects, which is what I was. 00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:36.180 So it was just an amazing opportunity and I set myself a goal that said, 00:17:36.570 --> 00:17:37.620 you know, here's what I'm gonna do. 00:17:37.620 --> 00:17:40.590 I'm gonna make one season of this, and we'll see where it goes. 00:17:40.590 --> 00:17:42.600 And then after I made that first season, I couldn't stop. 00:17:42.600 --> 00:17:44.580 I said, I have to try to make another second season. 00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:46.230 I try to make a third and so forth. 00:17:46.410 --> 00:17:48.420 And I was able to get grant funding for it. 00:17:48.824 --> 00:17:55.334 And I was able to get a network interested in it, and it just looked like that's what 00:17:55.334 --> 00:17:57.495 I was going to be doing for my career. 00:17:57.794 --> 00:18:02.115 And also that was the time where podcasting was receiving an 00:18:02.115 --> 00:18:05.235 inundation of venture capital. 00:18:05.925 --> 00:18:07.185 So it's different now. 00:18:07.574 --> 00:18:10.754 And so it looked like there might be boom times ahead. 00:18:11.294 --> 00:18:14.895 And then I just made whatever it was, five seasons, or four, five seasons, 00:18:15.525 --> 00:18:17.360 but I had to go back to the job. 00:18:18.450 --> 00:18:23.220 I took half leaves, but three outta the four years, I was able to do it full time. 00:18:23.639 --> 00:18:26.040 When I got back to the job, it was not only back to being a 00:18:26.040 --> 00:18:27.540 full professor, it was COVID. 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:28.950 Neil McPhedran: Oh, wow. 00:18:29.189 --> 00:18:30.249 Barry Lam: And I had to be chair. 00:18:31.050 --> 00:18:32.739 There you go. 00:18:32.789 --> 00:18:35.760 So like academics will understand that, because it was my turn. 00:18:35.820 --> 00:18:36.899 And it was like, okay. 00:18:37.260 --> 00:18:41.120 And then it was just not a foreseeable way for me to continue making the show. 00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:43.409 I was at Vassar College in Poughkeepsie, New York, and that 00:18:43.409 --> 00:18:46.770 was where I got started, and that's where I got tenure and, and so forth. 00:18:47.565 --> 00:18:54.645 And so essentially right before I saw it coming, I put out to the 00:18:55.425 --> 00:19:00.645 various departments in the field, which contained people in it who were 00:19:00.885 --> 00:19:06.615 public scholarship curious or public scholarship experienced or something, 00:19:07.005 --> 00:19:14.385 that I was looking for a position that would allow me to do this work, at least 00:19:15.014 --> 00:19:19.085 have it count as part of what it is to be an academic in that department. 00:19:19.445 --> 00:19:24.375 Because at Vassar what it means to be at that institution is to teach five 00:19:24.375 --> 00:19:26.445 courses a year and serve the college. 00:19:26.745 --> 00:19:30.975 And you know, research is part of it and monographs and all that. 00:19:31.245 --> 00:19:34.185 But even that is not as important because it's a liberal arts 00:19:34.185 --> 00:19:36.615 college for elite kids, you know. 00:19:37.064 --> 00:19:39.284 It was like, could I sustain this work? 00:19:39.885 --> 00:19:41.504 And I got a couple of bites. 00:19:42.510 --> 00:19:44.909 And then COVID hit and then everything was put on hiatus. 00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:48.090 'Cause you guys all remember that nobody had any money. 00:19:48.330 --> 00:19:53.520 That was a big crisis after the crisis of 2008ish and nine-ish, and now 00:19:53.520 --> 00:19:56.350 we're in another crisis, obviously we're in a never ending crisis. 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:01.880 So that was all suspended and put on hiatus until, I don't know, 22. 00:20:02.330 --> 00:20:03.070 Something like that. 00:20:03.090 --> 00:20:03.870 End of 21. 00:20:04.350 --> 00:20:07.620 In which case Riverside called and said, we're still interested. 00:20:08.010 --> 00:20:11.655 'Cause at that point I had already given a job talk there. 00:20:12.195 --> 00:20:15.915 They said, oh, we have this new dean who might very well be interested in you too. 00:20:16.695 --> 00:20:20.745 Turns out that dean, his name is Darrell Williams, in, in that time, 00:20:20.745 --> 00:20:25.365 I got enough prominence as like an academic who makes narrative podcast to 00:20:25.365 --> 00:20:29.175 start giving seminars, and one regular seminar I'd given was at the National 00:20:29.175 --> 00:20:33.170 Humanities Center twice a year, once for graduate students, once for faculty. 00:20:34.275 --> 00:20:36.375 And I did that for whatever, three, four years. 00:20:36.735 --> 00:20:41.745 My dean, before he became my dean at UCR, was at the University of Maryland. 00:20:41.745 --> 00:20:44.865 He was a public historian who got like a huge grant to do 00:20:44.865 --> 00:20:48.975 narrative stuff like monographs and websites and things like that. 00:20:49.275 --> 00:20:55.095 And as part of that, he took a podcasting seminar and I was the keynote speaker. 00:20:55.365 --> 00:20:59.925 So he actually already knew me as like some kind of weird outlier. 00:21:00.375 --> 00:21:05.190 And it turns out that that's what he was interested in being like the dean for it. 00:21:05.250 --> 00:21:11.850 And so what happened was I came back out, I gave another talk, I met with a dean and 00:21:11.850 --> 00:21:19.080 I told them like this whole big vision of having an alternative set of work, right? 00:21:19.139 --> 00:21:24.030 That like humanists more generally, 'cause he's the dean of the School 00:21:24.030 --> 00:21:28.080 of Humanities, do that is public facing rather than peer facing. 00:21:28.350 --> 00:21:32.220 That is the audience for it is not other experts. 00:21:32.520 --> 00:21:35.670 The mediums are as diverse as the audiences are. 00:21:35.670 --> 00:21:39.180 So they could be video, they could be audio, they could be print, but 00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:44.639 different kind of print and that kind of stuff ought to count in some 00:21:44.639 --> 00:21:49.125 way in the merit review, the hiring process, the merit review process, 00:21:49.185 --> 00:21:50.895 the promotion process, and so forth. 00:21:51.405 --> 00:21:52.334 And he agreed. 00:21:53.024 --> 00:21:58.004 And so he actually went back to the department and said, why don't you revise 00:21:58.004 --> 00:22:02.235 your tenure and promotion guidelines so the kind of work that Barry does 00:22:02.564 --> 00:22:05.685 is included in that, and it's not, obviously, it doesn't mention me by name. 00:22:06.015 --> 00:22:09.315 So that other departments can follow and your own department for 00:22:09.315 --> 00:22:10.965 other people within the department. 00:22:11.025 --> 00:22:14.025 And we do have a couple of other people in the department that 00:22:14.025 --> 00:22:15.885 do things kind of like this. 00:22:16.335 --> 00:22:23.445 And so my whole hiring here was kind of like this little project 00:22:23.445 --> 00:22:25.665 of just like a few people, right? 00:22:25.665 --> 00:22:29.625 And so now it is part of my job that I can make a season 00:22:29.625 --> 00:22:31.425 of this show and have it count. 00:22:31.665 --> 00:22:32.715 How much does it count? 00:22:32.925 --> 00:22:34.305 It's very bureaucratic. 00:22:34.455 --> 00:22:36.375 So other places it's kind of qualitative. 00:22:36.375 --> 00:22:39.135 It's like one journal article counts for three book reviews 00:22:39.135 --> 00:22:40.395 and, you know, it's like that. 00:22:40.665 --> 00:22:44.534 So they literally have to like write out, okay, we'll say one episode is 00:22:44.534 --> 00:22:47.335 kind of like half a journal article and then something like that. 00:22:47.695 --> 00:22:49.155 So it's like that here. 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:49.830 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.230 I'm just amazed at like everything that you're doing and then like 00:22:53.230 --> 00:22:54.750 paving the way for everybody. 00:22:55.090 --> 00:23:00.970 So what do you make of this whole idea of like journal of podcasting or some like 00:23:00.970 --> 00:23:03.600 formal accreditation body for scholars? 00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:07.360 Barry Lam: It's absolutely hilarious to me, and that's absolutely hilarious 00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:11.399 that you're asking me because I am one of the most rebellious against 00:23:11.399 --> 00:23:15.030 the bureaucratization of the evaluation of quality and quantity. 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:20.340 And academia has just moved in a direction that it's like more of 00:23:20.340 --> 00:23:21.510 that rather than less of that. 00:23:22.169 --> 00:23:24.570 And I absolutely despise it, right? 00:23:24.689 --> 00:23:28.230 And I'm at an institution where it's built in, where it's kinda like, well, 00:23:28.230 --> 00:23:31.500 let's say that the monograph counts for three of the, you know, it's like that. 00:23:31.560 --> 00:23:36.435 So the idea to me that you would like, oh, you know what's great? 00:23:37.350 --> 00:23:41.580 People are doing this and like there's a few people doing it that have gotten jobs 00:23:41.580 --> 00:23:44.129 and they're trying to make it so that it accounts that other people can do it. 00:23:44.490 --> 00:23:48.929 Let's bring that back into a journal and then count an article in it, 00:23:49.110 --> 00:23:52.770 and then there are a sets of experts at it that can evaluate each other. 00:23:53.040 --> 00:23:57.000 I understand why people are doing that because the internal incentives 00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.879 in academia have not changed, right? 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.330 It still needs to be the case that someone needs a letter of recommendation from 00:24:04.330 --> 00:24:09.130 a bunch of peers, and the peers better impress the dean and some committee that 00:24:09.130 --> 00:24:11.800 they are like the leaders of that area. 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:17.320 It's still, you know, it's still on that model and so obviously when some, an 00:24:17.320 --> 00:24:22.180 outlier comes in, they wanna generalize and they're gonna try to institutionalize 00:24:22.180 --> 00:24:26.680 it, but, you know, suffice it to say they're gonna, they're gonna mess it up. 00:24:27.534 --> 00:24:31.604 Neil McPhedran: So, instead of trying to figure out how podcasting fits 00:24:31.604 --> 00:24:35.294 into the existing system, it's like we gotta blow it up instead of trying 00:24:35.294 --> 00:24:40.034 to force it in to the OG system, we gotta kind of rethink the whole thing. 00:24:40.034 --> 00:24:47.534 So I guess what then lends me to ask you, how can institutions and academia 00:24:47.534 --> 00:24:55.350 support podcast based scholarship without losing what makes podcasting so distinct? 00:24:55.800 --> 00:24:58.170 Like it's creativity, it's accessibility. 00:24:58.170 --> 00:25:01.050 You kind of touched a little on it about what you are doing where it's 00:25:01.050 --> 00:25:06.300 more wider audience facing versus academia, your fellow peers facing, 00:25:06.300 --> 00:25:10.350 but I guess sort of baked within your pushback to the journal of podcasting. 00:25:10.350 --> 00:25:12.510 Sort of curious, like what are other ways to look at it then? 00:25:12.810 --> 00:25:16.620 Barry Lam: Well, so there are really light touch recommendations and then 00:25:16.625 --> 00:25:18.550 there are heavy handed recommendations. 00:25:18.570 --> 00:25:26.100 So like the light touch things are, if you have faculty, staff, postdocs who wanna 00:25:26.100 --> 00:25:29.250 do this as part of their time, right? 00:25:29.399 --> 00:25:35.850 So some part of their time has always been the research, but the output of 00:25:36.149 --> 00:25:41.070 that has been, you know, a dissertation with a bunch of citations and all that. 00:25:41.310 --> 00:25:48.270 If this is just one of the kinds of outputs that somebody can produce and that 00:25:48.270 --> 00:25:54.330 will be, you know, like people in dance do performance recitals as like their output. 00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:59.730 They don't necessarily have to have a dissertation that's archived, 00:25:59.790 --> 00:26:00.960 although some dance programs do. 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.780 You literally have to write the dissertation and archive it. 00:26:04.050 --> 00:26:10.680 And so if you just include as part of your outputs, right, audio series, then I mean 00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:13.139 you're gonna need more than just that. 00:26:13.260 --> 00:26:17.925 'Cause we all know that podcasting is just audio, it's like print. 00:26:17.985 --> 00:26:19.455 There's genres of it. 00:26:19.545 --> 00:26:22.995 Documentary series is completely different than you and a bunch of grad school 00:26:22.995 --> 00:26:25.185 friends just gabbing about something. 00:26:25.185 --> 00:26:27.525 And that's different from like an interview series, and that's 00:26:27.525 --> 00:26:30.315 different from oral history collection, stuff like that. 00:26:30.315 --> 00:26:33.705 So there needs to be genre conventions and there needs to be, 00:26:33.885 --> 00:26:35.445 you know, counting it as output. 00:26:35.835 --> 00:26:40.865 There is going to have to be some institutionalization, there need to 00:26:40.865 --> 00:26:45.540 be people that do some evaluation outside of the university because 00:26:45.540 --> 00:26:49.860 it's still the case that letters of recommendation are one of the currencies 00:26:49.860 --> 00:26:54.060 for hiring and promotion and so forth. 00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:55.830 Committees need that kind of thing. 00:26:56.430 --> 00:27:02.399 If universities don't just treat it as a hobby, that's not part of 00:27:02.399 --> 00:27:07.170 somebody's job, that just means counting what they're doing in it. 00:27:07.170 --> 00:27:10.409 That's the lightest touch, and I think people are prepared 00:27:10.409 --> 00:27:11.700 to kind of accept that. 00:27:12.135 --> 00:27:18.735 The much heavier handed kind of stuff involves funding, as we all know, right? 00:27:18.735 --> 00:27:22.005 Some of these things are expensive, it's gotten cheaper, like the 00:27:22.005 --> 00:27:26.460 actual technical aspects of podcast production are cheaper than they were. 00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:30.540 So like hosting is not that expensive anymore, and you have all 00:27:30.540 --> 00:27:31.710 these things that we're using now. 00:27:31.710 --> 00:27:36.120 We don't have to pay for professionals to go with professional mics and record 00:27:36.120 --> 00:27:38.250 people for interviews and all that stuff. 00:27:38.430 --> 00:27:42.510 But if you really wanted to embark on a research project that like requires 00:27:42.510 --> 00:27:47.640 you to do substantive archival audio, go out to different places to interview 00:27:47.910 --> 00:27:51.510 people who are not available in this kind of context and put it all together. 00:27:51.840 --> 00:27:53.880 Then that's going to require some kind of funding. 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:56.010 I don't know how much universities will do that. 00:27:56.010 --> 00:28:00.000 Like they're willing to hire researchers for other things. 00:28:00.030 --> 00:28:06.600 I don't know why they wouldn't try to hire audio expert versions of that 00:28:06.750 --> 00:28:11.580 to help faculty actually produce the kind of thing that they're producing. 00:28:12.210 --> 00:28:16.230 Universities can really help supplement, I don't wanna say 00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:21.510 takeover, but supplement the kind of decline of public broadcasting. 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:25.770 Jennifer-Lee: I am from media and traditional media and we're seeing 00:28:25.770 --> 00:28:29.399 such a big shift in public media here. 00:28:29.790 --> 00:28:30.570 It's changing. 00:28:30.570 --> 00:28:33.810 So I was just telling people that regardless if you're in higher 00:28:33.810 --> 00:28:37.020 ed space, or you're a business or whatever, you kind of gotta create 00:28:37.020 --> 00:28:40.350 your own kind of media company and your own platform for broadcast. 00:28:40.590 --> 00:28:44.820 'Cause gone are the days that you're gonna be on the news unless you pay to play. 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:49.140 It's like before, you would submit your press release, maybe you would 00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:52.470 get in on the news or whatever, and it's like you don't have that now. 00:28:52.470 --> 00:28:57.270 I had a client of mine say that I want to be able to say when I can broadcast, 00:28:57.270 --> 00:28:59.490 and I said, that's what a podcast is. 00:28:59.490 --> 00:28:59.580 Barry Lam: Yeah. 00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:00.330 No, that's right. 00:29:00.705 --> 00:29:03.495 That's absolutely right and that, that's exactly what I'm talking about, Jen. 00:29:03.675 --> 00:29:08.565 I actually think that universities are in a better position than a 00:29:08.565 --> 00:29:10.195 lot of other institutions to do it. 00:29:10.504 --> 00:29:14.985 Number one, we're already nonprofit mission driven as opposed to like, like 00:29:14.985 --> 00:29:16.785 Goldman Sachs is not gonna step up. 00:29:16.785 --> 00:29:18.735 Like Goldman Sachs, I'm sure has a podcast. 00:29:18.795 --> 00:29:21.100 And Goldman Sachs has all the money in the world, but, 00:29:21.100 --> 00:29:24.915 Jennifer-Lee: And I think they actually, someone from Goldman Sachs put money 00:29:24.915 --> 00:29:28.515 or hosted one of the university podcasts we talked to actually. 00:29:28.605 --> 00:29:28.695 Barry Lam: Right. 00:29:28.725 --> 00:29:34.305 But as an institution, it's not, it's not aligned with the kind of things 00:29:34.305 --> 00:29:39.015 like, at the end of the day, what Goldman Sachs is going to put money into is 00:29:39.015 --> 00:29:40.035 what they've always put money into. 00:29:40.035 --> 00:29:41.505 There's gonna be some like political shows. 00:29:41.505 --> 00:29:42.045 Neil McPhedran: Making more money. 00:29:42.245 --> 00:29:42.495 Barry Lam: Yeah. 00:29:42.615 --> 00:29:43.375 Making more money. 00:29:43.605 --> 00:29:49.425 A lot of the stuff that we do in the academic space is not all that 00:29:49.425 --> 00:29:52.365 different from a lot of the kind of things that have been done in public 00:29:52.365 --> 00:29:56.655 broadcasting in the 20th and the early part of the 21st century, right? 00:29:56.774 --> 00:30:01.125 And if anything, we're the sources, whereas they are like there are filmmakers 00:30:01.185 --> 00:30:03.105 and so forth, video makers and all that. 00:30:03.360 --> 00:30:05.280 But we're like the source material, right? 00:30:05.340 --> 00:30:08.429 Jennifer-Lee: But I think the other problem is, which you touched upon 00:30:08.429 --> 00:30:11.939 and we kind of dealt with this at university, is when they make these 00:30:11.939 --> 00:30:18.919 podcasts, whatever their idea is, is to interview entrepreneurs or to do scholarly 00:30:18.949 --> 00:30:24.254 stuff and like go into like different areas, is they don't understand how it 00:30:24.254 --> 00:30:29.205 helps other things in your university like website, SEO, and all that. 00:30:29.205 --> 00:30:32.264 Like they don't realize there's so much gold behind that podcast 00:30:32.264 --> 00:30:33.435 you created for five years. 00:30:33.435 --> 00:30:36.735 They're just so focused on the numbers and even that skewed wrong. 00:30:37.004 --> 00:30:40.245 They look at the numbers being like, oh, well we only get a thousand. 00:30:40.274 --> 00:30:43.470 And it's like, well that's better than nothing. 00:30:43.470 --> 00:30:47.190 There's like a thousand people in a room, and so they're quick when the budgets come 00:30:47.190 --> 00:30:50.340 up and they're like, oh no, something's happened and we gotta cut the budget. 00:30:50.340 --> 00:30:51.930 They're like, let's get rid of the podcast. 00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:55.080 Barry Lam: You know, another thing that happens is when things 00:30:55.080 --> 00:30:59.190 get too institutional, like, so when I left Vassar, I hate 00:30:59.190 --> 00:31:00.330 to pick up my old institution. 00:31:00.330 --> 00:31:00.840 They were great. 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.530 I'm going back to visit, but you know, because I was doing this and 00:31:04.530 --> 00:31:07.560 there were a couple other faculty inspired to do this, the college 00:31:07.560 --> 00:31:10.290 decided to do their own version of it. 00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:14.280 But when you go through the communications office, like when you go through all 00:31:14.280 --> 00:31:20.370 the formal, you know, PR people, it's gonna come out sounding like a PR thing. 00:31:20.430 --> 00:31:26.235 And, but when faculty do it, it sounds, it's independent, it's scholarly, right? 00:31:26.235 --> 00:31:29.355 It's not a representation of the university. 00:31:29.534 --> 00:31:37.305 So like my dream is that like it is part of a local university's mission 00:31:38.085 --> 00:31:43.754 that they are going to make stuff and put it out there for public consumption 00:31:44.475 --> 00:31:48.675 on the local public television channels that is about the kind of knowledge 00:31:48.675 --> 00:31:52.905 being produced there, maybe nationally if it's a national leader in something. 00:31:53.324 --> 00:31:58.395 In a way that captures the spirit of not just the university, but 00:31:58.425 --> 00:32:03.195 public broadcasting, which is that there are certain things that don't 00:32:03.195 --> 00:32:07.524 make money, but contribute to a greater good, right, in the culture. 00:32:08.364 --> 00:32:09.345 And there's an audience for it. 00:32:09.345 --> 00:32:11.294 They're just not consumers. 00:32:11.324 --> 00:32:13.425 They may donate, but a lot of them don't. 00:32:14.115 --> 00:32:14.475 Neil McPhedran: Right. 00:32:15.915 --> 00:32:19.635 Well, this has been such a great conversation and I think we could 00:32:19.695 --> 00:32:23.385 just keep sort of digging in multiple layers and obviously that 00:32:23.385 --> 00:32:25.515 symposium dug a bit deeper into that. 00:32:26.415 --> 00:32:29.565 But before we wrap, I'd just like to hear a bit what's next 00:32:29.565 --> 00:32:33.024 for you and for Hi-Phi Nation? 00:32:33.024 --> 00:32:36.840 So, you mentioned off the top that there's a upcoming season, but what's 00:32:36.840 --> 00:32:40.920 next for Hi-Phi Nation and what are some of the themes or directions that 00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:43.140 you might be thinking about exploring? 00:32:43.530 --> 00:32:43.890 Barry Lam: Sure. 00:32:43.890 --> 00:32:48.690 So I actually have collected all of the, within business we call tape. 00:32:49.685 --> 00:32:51.604 It's just a matter of putting the episodes together. 00:32:51.604 --> 00:32:53.104 I have a couple of episodes put together. 00:32:53.465 --> 00:32:57.455 This next season, I'm gonna return to the anthology aspect of the show. 00:32:57.455 --> 00:33:01.715 So philosophy touches on all kinds of areas in life, not just one kind of theme. 00:33:01.925 --> 00:33:06.245 I've done theme-based seasons, so there's gonna be a lot about the 00:33:06.245 --> 00:33:10.920 connection between philosophy and various kinds of aspects in science, right? 00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:14.260 So there's gonna be an episode about the early COVID vaccine actually. 00:33:14.470 --> 00:33:17.100 During the rollout of the COVID vaccine, I don't know if either of 00:33:17.100 --> 00:33:21.629 you remember, but there was a time where it spoiled so quickly that if 00:33:21.629 --> 00:33:25.440 you open like a vial and you couldn't vaccinate, uh, they threw it away. 00:33:25.470 --> 00:33:27.990 But nobody knows the story of how that got solved. 00:33:28.050 --> 00:33:30.629 So I actually discovered that the story of how it was solved 00:33:30.629 --> 00:33:32.400 was actually really fascinating. 00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:34.200 So there's an episode about that. 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.250 There's gonna be episodes about people who are doing tissue engineering 00:33:38.565 --> 00:33:40.275 to try to promote human longevity. 00:33:40.545 --> 00:33:47.535 So, you know, basically let's grow Neil's like a set of brain cells that his 00:33:47.775 --> 00:33:50.955 own brain won't grow and they're like, what'll happen if we actually put it in? 00:33:51.195 --> 00:33:53.835 Will it help like that brain rejuvenate in such a way? 00:33:54.075 --> 00:33:54.765 Things like that. 00:33:55.005 --> 00:33:55.095 Neil McPhedran: Wow. 00:33:55.830 --> 00:33:57.900 Yeah, those are some really interesting topics. 00:33:58.020 --> 00:33:58.470 Barry Lam: Oh, totally. 00:33:58.470 --> 00:34:01.530 A lot of the bio stuff is just absolutely fascinating to me. 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:02.190 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:07.260 Well, Barry, we'll end with one question here for the audience. 00:34:07.290 --> 00:34:14.010 What advice would you give to scholars or departments who want start a podcast 00:34:14.010 --> 00:34:18.330 but aren't really sure how to align it with their research, or, I guess in 00:34:18.330 --> 00:34:20.130 this case, we got into tenure goals? 00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:21.180 Barry Lam: Yeah, yeah. 00:34:21.180 --> 00:34:25.050 You know what I say to graduate students, what I say to everybody. 00:34:25.905 --> 00:34:31.875 Just start and do it and think about whether you wanna do it later, which 00:34:31.875 --> 00:34:37.035 is the funny thing to say, but really like if you're dithering about, it's 00:34:37.035 --> 00:34:41.085 because you're scared and you think it's risky and you're risk averse. 00:34:41.145 --> 00:34:44.925 One of the things I always say to people doing nothing is also risky. 00:34:45.225 --> 00:34:50.625 I think the biggest problem with all of higher education is that 00:34:50.655 --> 00:34:55.770 within the last 15 years everything has been about seeing everything 00:34:55.770 --> 00:34:57.680 else as an investment and a return. 00:34:58.110 --> 00:35:00.510 Students see it as an investment or a return. 00:35:00.810 --> 00:35:05.160 People who are faculty are they like, is this thing a good investment on a return? 00:35:05.490 --> 00:35:10.620 And I think it's just part of this kind of really noxious set of concepts that 00:35:10.620 --> 00:35:15.509 we've gotten from the financialization of the American economy that we have made 00:35:15.600 --> 00:35:19.799 everything about incentives and returns, and I could speak in that language, right? 00:35:19.799 --> 00:35:23.730 I could also say, while doing nothing is risky in the following 00:35:23.730 --> 00:35:28.230 way, the returns will be completely predictable, but always low, right? 00:35:28.230 --> 00:35:30.270 I mean, the whole thing about how the students should 00:35:30.270 --> 00:35:31.500 think about their education. 00:35:31.799 --> 00:35:33.450 Is it a good or not good investment? 00:35:33.870 --> 00:35:39.450 What has completely gotten lost in all of this is, are you setting 00:35:39.450 --> 00:35:41.220 yourself up for a good life adventure? 00:35:41.700 --> 00:35:45.810 And there was a period where college students thought about that 00:35:46.379 --> 00:35:47.879 a lot more than about the return. 00:35:47.879 --> 00:35:50.879 And maybe because on the other end they were a little bit more secure about 00:35:50.879 --> 00:35:52.890 where their economic position was. 00:35:53.160 --> 00:35:54.270 But I don't think that's it. 00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:56.850 Jennifer-Lee: Because as students too, it's like it's not an instant 00:35:56.850 --> 00:36:02.220 return if you don't go out after university and say you become a lawyer. 00:36:02.220 --> 00:36:04.920 But if you don't go and do the steps to be a lawyer and work at 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:07.410 a firm, you're not gonna see a return anyways on that law degree. 00:36:07.415 --> 00:36:08.340 Barry Lam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:36:08.490 --> 00:36:08.910 That's right. 00:36:09.270 --> 00:36:10.020 Neil McPhedran: Well, that's great. 00:36:10.020 --> 00:36:12.600 Really appreciate your time today, Barry. 00:36:12.600 --> 00:36:17.550 That was really interesting to dig into both your experience with Hi-Phi Nation, 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:23.265 but also the academic world of podcasting and what's happening there and there's 00:36:23.265 --> 00:36:26.985 lots of things moving and shaking and it'll be interesting to see how things 00:36:26.985 --> 00:36:28.965 transpire over the coming years for sure. 00:36:29.055 --> 00:36:30.675 And good luck with your next season. 00:36:31.125 --> 00:36:31.515 Barry Lam: Thank you. 00:36:31.515 --> 00:36:34.995 And good luck to you too here on your show, Continuing Studies. 00:36:35.415 --> 00:36:38.654 Um, looking forward to hearing the episode and more episodes. 00:36:39.195 --> 00:36:39.375 Neil McPhedran: Great. 00:36:39.435 --> 00:36:39.645 Thank you. 00:36:39.645 --> 00:36:40.154 Jennifer-Lee: Sounds great. 00:36:40.154 --> 00:36:40.665 Thank you. 00:36:42.105 --> 00:36:44.805 Barry Lam: Jen, another awesome conversation. 00:36:44.835 --> 00:36:49.515 I really enjoyed that discussion with Barry, not only about his 00:36:49.575 --> 00:36:55.305 podcasting journey and his critically acclaimed podcast, Hi-Phi Nation, 00:36:55.365 --> 00:36:59.775 but also just really appreciated how he was quite transparent about 00:36:59.775 --> 00:37:03.075 his academic career as well too, and how podcasting fits into that. 00:37:03.500 --> 00:37:05.990 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I'm just really glad that you were able to meet 00:37:05.990 --> 00:37:07.400 with him and get him on our podcast. 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:10.850 So it was, yeah, great conversation as always. 00:37:10.850 --> 00:37:15.560 And just a reminder, if you wanna chat with Neil and I answer a question which 00:37:15.560 --> 00:37:20.715 we had at the beginning, which is have you been doing a podcast with audio for 00:37:20.715 --> 00:37:25.755 a long time and are thinking about, or are currently transitioning into video? 00:37:25.755 --> 00:37:29.355 We would love to chat with you here on Continuing Studies podcast. 00:37:29.625 --> 00:37:32.415 Neil McPhedran: Drop us a line, drop us a line on LinkedIn, or 00:37:32.625 --> 00:37:33.855 Jennifer-Lee: Slide in our DMs. 00:37:34.665 --> 00:37:36.015 That's what the young people are saying. 00:37:36.615 --> 00:37:37.815 Neil McPhedran: Slide into our DMs. 00:37:37.965 --> 00:37:39.009 Jennifer-Lee: Slide into our DMs. 00:37:39.140 --> 00:37:39.980 Okay. 00:37:39.980 --> 00:37:42.800 On that note, this is when Neil and I tried to be cool. 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.350 Neil McPhedran: Kat, our producer, is shaking her head at 00:37:45.350 --> 00:37:47.000 us right now, but that's fine. 00:37:47.510 --> 00:37:48.200 Jennifer-Lee: That's fine. 00:37:48.650 --> 00:37:51.650 Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast 00:37:51.650 --> 00:37:53.330 for higher Education podcasters. 00:37:53.600 --> 00:37:56.685 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:37:57.044 --> 00:38:01.004 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 00:38:01.004 --> 00:38:04.845 podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. 00:38:04.995 --> 00:38:09.134 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, 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