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 We've got a special guest for you today.

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 We've got Andy Paul back on the show.

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 Always have a great time when we bring Andy Paul on the show.

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 If you don't know who Andy is and you're in the sales world,

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 I don't know what is wrong with you,

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 but you need to pull your head out of your, you know what.

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 Andy is a prolific podcaster, author,

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 and been a mentor from afar for me.

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 So I know that we're gonna have a very action-packed episode.

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 Andy, welcome to the show.

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 Colin, thanks for having me back.

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 Yeah, it's always good to catch up with you.

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 It is, it is.

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 And it's even more fun when it's a podcast.

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 Yeah, yeah.

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 I mean, yeah, we talk somewhat frequently

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 outside the podcast, but yeah,

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 it's always good to talk on the record.

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 Yeah, yeah, and I know I've gotten my fair share

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 of good podcast advice from you as well,

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 because you've been doing this a while.

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 Two-way street there.

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 I've gotten good advice from you as well.

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 So we put out a good podcast.

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 So love to have you back and talk about some of the things

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 that are top of mind for you, right?

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 Talking about effective selling and win rates,

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 which clearly, based on the data,

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 is something that teams are struggling with.

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 I mean, what are the latest numbers

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 that you've seen out there,

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 or from talking to sales leaders,

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 as far as quota attainment and win rate

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 and these sort of things that are just a challenge

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 for so many people?

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 Yeah, well, I mean, the data that exists isn't good

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 in terms of trends, though, yeah,

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 I think quota attainment's one thing,

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 win rates are another.

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 I mean, there's, unfortunately,

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 people define win rates differently,

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 and it's not always clear that there's a sort of

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 consistent definition, so you have the context

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 of the data is clear, but yeah,

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 quota attainment continues to fall.

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 That's a complex topic,

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 because it all gets into how a quota is set and so on.

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 Yeah, win rates are a little more clear cut

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 if you're sort of honing in on a definition saying,

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 look, if I have 10 opportunities I was working in

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 that closed this last month, and I won two of those,

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 then my win rate was 20%, right?

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 So just sort of keep a very simple definition.

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 And in that sense, yeah, are the win rates falling?

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 I mean, certainly there's anecdotal data

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 saying that at this time, and sort of economic downturn,

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 that win rates are falling, but they really shouldn't.

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 There's no obvious reasons why your win rates should fall.

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 Certainly a number of opportunities you're working

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 may be falling, because there's less money out there.

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 But if you're really, my contention is,

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 and my experience has been,

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 that if you're really executing a sort of

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 disciplined process in terms of qualifying

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 the people you're going to invest your time with,

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 then win rates really shouldn't change.

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 Now again, the struggle is,

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 do you have enough opportunities?

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 But now the one exception to that potentially is,

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 is that, and again, I'll make the argument

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 that it shouldn't be the case,

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 is that there could be an increase in no decisions

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 happening during economic contraction,

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 or when times are tough, downturn, whatever one would call this.

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 But again, we could spend time arguing as

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 whether that should be the case or not,

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 and whether you should have chosen to invest the time

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 in those companies that ultimately made that no decision.

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 Now, I don't want to escape past something

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 really important that you said.

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 Yeah, let's get into it.

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 You said win rates shouldn't drop.

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 Maybe you should, maybe the amount of deals you're working

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 is less than it was previously, just based on current time.

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 But you said if you're disciplined in the quality of people

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 that you're spending time with, right?

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 Meaning, and I think this is something that sellers

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 and sales organizations struggle with a lot

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 of letting a lot of deals get into the pipeline

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 that shouldn't in the first place.

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 Yes, well.

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 It's hardly disqualifying.

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 Well, here's the bottom line for me,

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 and it's always been this, is that as a seller,

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 you are making the choice to win or to lose.

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 That's a hard truth for some to probably get.

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 And the choice is the actions that you take

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 to help the buyer make their decision, right?

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 This buying experience, we know increasingly

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 all the data is showing, and Gardner just came out

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 with their report a couple weeks ago at their conference,

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 the nine most important factors influencing the buyer's

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 selection of a vendor.

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 Not one of them had to do with the product or the price.

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 It's about how they experience working with the seller

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 and the seller's organization.

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 Why is that the case?

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 Because a competitive product at a competitive price

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 is just table stakes these days.

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 And in so many segments, in the mind of the customer,

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 there's so many vendors out there, they're all the same.

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 They're all the same.

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 They all basically do the same things.

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 They all basically cost the same amount of money.

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 So in that situation, in that environment,

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 on what basis is the buyer making the decision?

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 Well, Gardner came out with this data,

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 and there's other data that other similar analyst firms

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 and consulting firms have shown,

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 is that it boils down to the experience

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 that the buyer has with the seller.

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 You mean it's not the features and the price?

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 It's not the features.

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 Can you believe that?

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 Shocking.

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 But the thing is, it's always been this way.

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 But the reasons differ, but it's always been this way.

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 I mean, my experience, and I've been in this business

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 a long, long, long time, is,

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 yeah, I was working for a lot of startups,

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 growing teams, we were selling these really complex,

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 very expensive communication systems,

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 seven, eight, I think nine figure deals, right?

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 Capina gets, we had some deals that were larger

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 than our revenue as a company.

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 And we were competing against these multi-billion dollar,

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 multi-national corporations that could,

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 we were a rounding error in their revenue.

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 How do we compete?

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 Sometimes we didn't have a product,

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 we just had something on paper that we were trying to,

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 something innovative we were trying to sell.

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 Wasn't the product, wasn't the price,

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 it was how we sold it,

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 how we built credibility and trust with the buyer,

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 how we connected with the various stakeholders,

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 and that's how we built that credibility and trust,

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 how we got to the point where we really understood

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 that what was driving the decision on the part of the buyer

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 was the most important thing for them to accomplish.

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 That's how we competed and won.

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 So this idea that the product has the primacy

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 has really been outdated for decades,

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 but never more so than today.

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 It's really about what you as the seller do

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 to create a positive buying experience for your buyer.

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 Now, why is it that more sales teams

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 are not taking this into consideration

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 when building their sales process?

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 I try to stay positive when we talk about these things.

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 I didn't think I stumped you.

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 You're just trying to be polite.

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 Because people just aren't thinking about it.

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 Again, I use the word choice.

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 I mean, again, success in selling boils down to the choice.

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 Am I making the choice to do the things that I said

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 that create the buying experience of the buyer,

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 that help them make the decision?

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 And that's the differentiation.

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 It's not the products, not the price, it's the seller.

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 And I think that's great news for sellers.

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 I think that's fantastic news for sellers.

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 We can't control the product, we can't control the features,

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 we can't control the price,

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 but I have control over what I do.

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 I have control over the connection I make with the buyer

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 and the various stakeholders.

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 I have control over the credibility and trust

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 and trustworthiness that I'm able to develop with the buyer.

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 I have control over the questions I ask.

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 I have control over being intentional

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 to make sure that every time I interact with the buyer,

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 I'm delivering something of value

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 that helps them make progress toward making a decision.

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 So they're getting a return on the time they invest in me.

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 That's all up to me.

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 I control all of that.

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 So to me, this is like Nirvana for sellers,

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 is that you're in control of your own success

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 if you make the right choices,

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 operate the right level of intent, excuse me,

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 when you interact with your buyers.

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 Now, sometimes that right choice might be realizing

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 we are not the best option for you.

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 Absolutely.

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 So another way to phrase this,

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 I'm sorry to jump on that,

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 was just that when you're thinking about,

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 okay, I can invest my time with this particular prospect,

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 do I really have a chance of winning?

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 You have to be very pragmatic about these things

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 because you have a limited amount of time

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 to invest as a seller.

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 So you have to, again, expect the idea of choice.

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 You have to choose wisely

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 and not just accept everybody that comes into your pipeline

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 and say, yeah, I'm gonna sell to you.

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 What I like to say is you as the seller,

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 you need to envision yourself being the bouncer

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 at the head of the velvet rope,

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 people wanting to get into the club.

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 You choose who gets into your club.

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 Just because they're lined up outside waiting to get in

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 doesn't mean they get in.

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 Just because marketing's sending you leads

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 and they say, oh, this is a marketing qualified lead.

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 Yeah, so what?

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 It's your choice, it's your career, it's your time.

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 You make the choice.

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 Yeah, and as a seller, that could be spending more time

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 with people that have better deal velocity.

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 It could be spending more time with less people, right?

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 As a seller, you get to choose

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 what's the right choice for you.

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 But I think that the big problem that I think,

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 and I'd love to get your thoughts on this,

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 is I don't even know if a lot of sales organizations

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 have really great, well-defined disqualification criteria.

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 They don't.

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 Like my experience, most don't, right?

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 And they leave it up to the seller

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 and there's pressures on the sellers, we know,

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 because especially now, when times are a little bit harder,

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 you tend to see a little bit more,

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 I'll say it nicely, panic selling, if you will,

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 desperation-driven selling, right?

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 Yeah.

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 And that leads to, yeah, well, I'm gonna talk to this person

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 I wouldn't normally talk to,

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 but I'm gonna talk to him because I need something.

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 And that's problematic, right?

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 Because that creates this vicious cycle of,

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 you know, you're taking bad leads and you get bad results

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 and then you get desperate

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 and you start talking to more bad leads

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 and just sort of continues to fuel itself.

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 So at some point, when I use the word discipline upfront,

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 is again, this is a choice you make as a seller.

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 And you have to be conscious of everything you're doing

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 and sort of monitor the results of the steps you take.

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 I'm a big advocate for continual experimentation

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 in your personal selling processes

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 to really understand what really is working,

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 but you need to really understand what those are

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 and then improve upon them

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 rather than to sort of accept that this is sort of

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 a lot in life that I'm being deluged with these leads

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 coming in for marketing and yeah, I'll talk to them.

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 Or, you know, my SDRs are feeding me these leads.

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 They say they're qualified and every time I get them,

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00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,480
 it's like, yeah, they're not really qualified, right?

262
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:08,320
 Right.

263
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:09,160
 But we feel pressure.

264
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,720
 But again, as a seller, it's ultimately up to you.

265
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:14,560
 It's your career.

266
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:17,400
 No one cares about your success as much as you do.

267
00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:18,960
 So if you find yourself distracted

268
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,480
 by poor quality opportunities, disqualify them.