00:00:08:08 - 00:00:09:20 Welcome back to M&A Corner. 00:00:10:00 - 00:00:11:16 We have a special edition today 00:00:11:16 - 00:00:14:07 because I have two of my European colleagues with me. 00:00:14:13 - 00:00:16:15 I have Dean, who heads our London office, 00:00:16:15 - 00:00:19:00 and I have Amélie, who heads our Paris office. 00:00:19:11 - 00:00:24:03 And we thought we could spend today talking a bit about what they're seeing in their local markets 00:00:24:03 - 00:00:27:00 as well as how that fits within the broader context of M&A globally. 00:00:27:00 - 00:00:27:18 as well as how that fits within the broader context of M&A globally. 00:00:27:23 - 00:00:28:20 So, welcome both. 00:00:29:09 - 00:00:30:05 Thank you for having us. 00:00:30:14 - 00:00:32:02 Dean, first question is for you. 00:00:32:12 - 00:00:36:07 You've practiced in London, in the U.K., the entirety of your career. 00:00:36:12 - 00:00:40:22 It seems like a unique moment politically, economically, in the U.K. 00:00:41:02 - 00:00:43:13 Could you talk a little bit about how that dynamic 00:00:43:13 - 00:00:48:09 is shaping how corporates are thinking about the environment and what they might look to do next? 00:00:49:00 - 00:00:54:00 Yeah, look, I think it's, the U.K.'s been through an interesting decade. 00:00:54:00 - 00:00:57:22 Obviously with the Brexit vote, then the implementation of all of that, 00:00:57:22 - 00:01:01:20 the outcomes of Covid and everything out the other side of that as well. 00:01:02:07 - 00:01:07:17 I think at this point in time, we have a government that's been in power for a year. 00:01:08:10 - 00:01:12:09 It's going to be three, maybe four years until the next general election. 00:01:12:15 - 00:01:19:11 So while the political side of things is showing polls that are moving in various different directions, 00:01:19:11 - 00:01:22:19 it is actually a reasonable length of time 00:01:22:19 - 00:01:26:19 before there is a natural point for the political landscape to change. 00:01:27:10 - 00:01:30:04 From a broader economic standpoint, 00:01:30:04 - 00:01:35:09 we continue to work through the macro factors, the inflationary pressures, 00:01:35:09 - 00:01:40:06 and the U.K. looking to position itself as a place of growth. 00:01:40:09 - 00:01:42:03 And that's clearly high on the government agenda. 00:01:42:22 - 00:01:50:01 The focus areas from an M&A standpoint continue to be around things that play to the growth agenda. 00:01:50:01 - 00:01:55:04 Infrastructure, in particular, is a huge area of opportunity, capital investment and M&A. 00:01:55:08 - 00:01:59:07 But from a corporate standpoint, it's very much around looking to position themselves 00:01:59:07 - 00:02:05:09 not just for the U.K., but ultimately in line with U.K. companies over many years. 00:02:05:09 - 00:02:10:21 Very much looking internationally, very much looking at how certain overseas markets 00:02:10:21 - 00:02:14:02 can add to their supply chain resilience, 00:02:14:02 - 00:02:17:19 add to their opportunities to have long-term sustainable growth. 00:02:19:15 - 00:02:23:04 Amélie, same question, but I have to ask first, 00:02:23:04 - 00:02:27:11 what number Prime Minister are we on over the last two years? 00:02:27:16 - 00:02:30:03 I think we don't count anymore, any longer. 00:02:30:23 - 00:02:38:07 The M&A market in France remains and is still a very attractive and large market. 00:02:38:11 - 00:02:42:09 It's the third market in Europe after the U.K. and Germany. 00:02:42:21 - 00:02:46:15 And it's a market which is still very much characterized 00:02:46:15 - 00:02:48:22 by the strengths of their strategic leaders. 00:02:49:08 - 00:02:53:09 And of course, with PE activity, strategic players 00:02:53:09 - 00:03:02:05 have really led the M&A market in 2025, even though it was a period which was slow. 00:03:02:05 - 00:03:04:09 2025 has been a slow year. 00:03:04:14 - 00:03:11:16 When you look at transactions which took place, they have been clearly led by 00:03:11:16 - 00:03:19:18 guys like Sanofi acquiring in the U.S., Schneider Electric in India, 00:03:19:18 - 00:03:24:08 Capgemini in India, Air Liquide in South Korea. 00:03:24:20 - 00:03:30:21 It's clearly an M&A market which is led by their strategic players. 00:03:31:05 - 00:03:34:11 It's a very global market in this respect. 00:03:34:18 - 00:03:39:16 So the characteristic of the French market, which is very much geared towards outbound M&A, 00:03:39:16 - 00:03:41:09 is still very prevalent. 00:03:42:01 - 00:03:46:05 What we have on top of that, which you are experiencing in the U.S., 00:03:46:05 - 00:03:50:02 is what the AI is basically fueling. 00:03:50:02 - 00:03:58:17 So you've got demand increase in electricity, and also in the mere electrification of the industry. 00:03:59:02 - 00:04:00:22 This is driving capital. 00:04:01:12 - 00:04:06:13 This is driving PE investment, pension funds investment into the economy. 00:04:06:20 - 00:04:12:08 And this is creating, basically, a very interesting theme for M&A. 00:04:12:18 - 00:04:17:06 Amélie, you've talked about investment into other European companies, into Asia. 00:04:17:06 - 00:04:21:15 Can you talk a little bit about the appetite for moving into the U.S., for instance? 00:04:21:15 - 00:04:26:09 The U.S. has been steadily increasing their share of outbound activity. 00:04:26:16 - 00:04:35:15 The largest outbound transaction in France in 2025 was Sanofi investing in the U.S. in Blueprint. 00:04:35:15 - 00:04:39:17 Clearly the U.S. is still, if you look at the last three years, 00:04:39:17 - 00:04:47:01 the U.S. are probably accounting for the largest share of FDI and M&A activity. 00:04:47:14 - 00:04:49:16 And Dean, can you comment on that 00:04:49:16 - 00:04:51:17 particularly the interest in the U.S. 00:04:51:19 - 00:04:54:06 from the folks in the U.K.? 00:04:54:06 - 00:04:57:10 Yeah, so as you note, FTSE 100 companies, 00:04:57:15 - 00:04:58:17 the U.K. companies in general 00:04:58:17 - 00:05:00:15 have tended to look internationally, 00:05:00:21 - 00:05:04:06 and the U.S. has always been a natural target market, 00:05:04:11 - 00:05:07:08 not just because of certain similarities, 00:05:08:04 - 00:05:11:19 but ultimately the growth opportunity and all of the attractions 00:05:11:19 - 00:05:13:14 that come from a valuation standpoint 00:05:13:14 - 00:05:16:15 from increasing exposure to the U.S. 00:05:17:03 - 00:05:18:06 That hasn't changed. 00:05:18:06 - 00:05:23:20 It's fair to say that there is more boardroom thought 00:05:23:20 - 00:05:28:17 around what is the right opportunity in the U.S. market and what exposures, 00:05:28:17 - 00:05:33:06 for better or for worse, does it provide companies at this particular moment in the cycle. 00:05:33:16 - 00:05:36:21 But the fundamental long-term attractiveness of the U.S. 00:05:36:21 - 00:05:40:18 to, what are, international companies absolutely remains. 00:05:41:08 - 00:05:43:11 And maybe you can both comment on this. 00:05:43:11 - 00:05:43:13 And maybe you can both comment on this. 00:05:43:13 - 00:05:47:19 Are there dynamics as it relates to government and the financial picture in Europe 00:05:47:19 - 00:05:49:22 that might influence deal activity? 00:05:49:22 - 00:05:52:02 This is really a pan-European theme. 00:05:52:02 - 00:05:57:06 Across Europe, budgetary constraints exist across pretty much every European market. 00:05:57:10 - 00:06:00:15 Every European economy is navigating them in their own ways. 00:06:01:08 - 00:06:06:14 But a big thematic which is playing to M&A and playing to capital investment is 00:06:06:14 - 00:06:08:10 infrastructure financing 00:06:08:10 - 00:06:11:10 through all sorts of different transaction structures 00:06:11:10 - 00:06:14:21 and different ways in which they're being implemented. 00:06:14:21 - 00:06:20:00 But I think governments across Europe realizing that external and private capital 00:06:20:00 - 00:06:22:12 has a really important role to play 00:06:22:12 - 00:06:28:05 in order to move each market forwards in its own specific strategic areas, 00:06:28:05 - 00:06:33:03 but also to do that whilst balancing public finances that are challenging across the continent. 00:06:33:23 - 00:06:35:15 In France, are you seeing a similar dynamic? 00:06:35:23 - 00:06:39:20 We do, we are seeing a similar dynamic in France 00:06:39:20 - 00:06:48:15 with state-owned enterprise being challenged and which will participate to the same trend. 00:06:48:23 - 00:06:52:04 Historically, there's been a bit of a multiple differential 00:06:52:04 - 00:06:55:19 between European publicly traded companies and those in America. 00:06:56:00 - 00:06:59:05 In other words, that the American companies tend to be valued 00:06:59:05 - 00:07:02:12 at a slightly higher level than their European counterparts. 00:07:03:06 - 00:07:06:17 As a result, there are opportunities for U.S. companies 00:07:06:17 - 00:07:09:20 to invest abroad, including into your markets. 00:07:09:21 - 00:07:12:20 If you were speaking to a U.S. corporate client 00:07:12:20 - 00:07:16:05 about investing either in the U.K. or in France, 00:07:16:05 - 00:07:20:14 what would you tell them about how to approach an opportunity in your market? 00:07:20:17 - 00:07:25:21 What would be the right way to try to unlock an opportunity in the most efficient fashion? 00:07:25:21 - 00:07:30:22 So maybe picking it up from a U.K. standpoint, there's obviously an important difference between 00:07:30:22 - 00:07:34:22 public company targets in the U.K. versus private assets. 00:07:34:22 - 00:07:38:17 The public company regime in the U.K. has the U.K. Takeover Code, 00:07:38:17 - 00:07:39:22 it has a whole host of— 00:07:39:22 - 00:07:40:05 Very strange rules. 00:07:40:05 - 00:07:41:19 Very strange rules. 00:07:41:19 - 00:07:46:20 Very important rules that are very well practiced and very well understood by the marketplace. 00:07:46:20 - 00:07:49:23 My unsurprising piece of advice would be to take very good advice 00:07:49:23 - 00:07:54:15 from well-established financial advisors in the market 00:07:54:15 - 00:07:59:11 to ensure you're navigating that to your advantage, but also to ensure you don't trip up. 00:07:59:11 - 00:08:02:06 Ultimately, it's got to start with the strategic rationale. 00:08:02:06 - 00:08:08:20 Like any transaction, it makes a lot more sense to be turning up to a target Board, 00:08:08:20 - 00:08:13:16 to a target Chair or a target CEO with a proposition that first and foremost 00:08:13:16 - 00:08:16:05 makes sense from a strategic logic standpoint. 00:08:16:05 - 00:08:19:20 Then clearly it's all about the price being right and it being deliverable. 00:08:19:20 - 00:08:20:00 I think the deliverability piece is a really key factor 00:08:20:00 - 00:08:23:10 I think the deliverability piece is a really key factor 00:08:23:10 - 00:08:29:04 that's perhaps underappreciated when people start off on a journey. 00:08:29:10 - 00:08:33:15 It is immensely important if we are advising a U.K. public company 00:08:33:15 - 00:08:38:22 in receipt of an approach that we have a really clear degree of confidence 00:08:38:22 - 00:08:42:06 around how that deal is going to get done from a financing standpoint, 00:08:42:06 - 00:08:47:06 but also around all of the broader regulatory and other approvals that obviously, 00:08:47:06 - 00:08:50:17 like here in the U.S., are becoming more complex and multifaceted. 00:08:50:17 - 00:08:54:06 And in France, are bids from overseas companies generally 00:08:54:06 - 00:08:57:21 welcome or is it a difficult terrain to navigate? 00:08:58:19 - 00:09:06:18 The general geopolitical issues have been extremely important 00:09:06:18 - 00:09:16:15 when it comes to tackling M&A in France, not only in mere defense area, but also in any sector. 00:09:17:03 - 00:09:21:05 Basically, you need to be accompanied in order to 00:09:21:05 - 00:09:27:14 get the right approval and to navigate the overall environment. 00:09:28:11 - 00:09:29:18 Sounds very French. 00:09:29:18 - 00:09:39:12 It is actually very French, but it is, inbound M&A is very active in France. 00:09:40:00 - 00:09:43:04 When you invest in a French company, you very often 00:09:43:04 - 00:09:46:06 invest in a company which is very international. 00:09:46:20 - 00:09:49:23 If you take, for instance, the Opella 00:09:49:23 - 00:09:53:12 divestment from Sanofi last year, 00:09:53:12 - 00:09:56:22 the majority of the business was outside France. 00:09:57:20 - 00:10:00:08 It did trigger scrutiny 00:10:00:08 - 00:10:02:09 on behalf of the government. 00:10:02:10 - 00:10:05:18 In reality, when you are properly accompanied 00:10:05:18 - 00:10:13:04 and properly advised, an acquirer would be able to cross the finish line. 00:10:13:10 - 00:10:15:02 We've talked a lot about corporates. 00:10:15:14 - 00:10:19:16 We haven't yet talked about private equity sponsor activity in your respective markets. 00:10:19:19 - 00:10:22:22 Obviously, it's a very large part of the U.S. deal economy. 00:10:23:09 - 00:10:26:05 Can you talk a little bit about the importance, relatively, 00:10:26:05 - 00:10:28:07 in your markets of the private equity community 00:10:28:07 - 00:10:31:20 and how they're approaching the current situation as it stands? 00:10:32:13 - 00:10:36:21 So look, I think from a U.K. standpoint, it would be very similar to the U.S. 00:10:36:21 - 00:10:41:07 Private equity is an enormous part of the M&A landscape. 00:10:42:04 - 00:10:47:07 It's very much the same international funds that are over here that are also present in London. 00:10:47:21 - 00:10:49:18 There's obviously a number of European funds 00:10:49:18 - 00:10:53:18 that are based in various parts of Europe that will have a strong presence in the U.K. market as well. 00:10:54:17 - 00:11:01:08 And again, picking up on the similar theme, it's not U.K. companies because you're targeting the U.K. 00:11:01:13 - 00:11:03:07 It's U.K. companies that are international. 00:11:03:19 - 00:11:06:21 An awful lot of private equity theses that we've been involved with 00:11:06:21 - 00:11:11:07 are actually taking U.K. companies where the vast majority of their revenue and profit 00:11:11:07 - 00:11:17:00 is overseas and potentially bringing them back in some different form 00:11:17:00 - 00:11:21:19 where perhaps they relist in the U.S. or reemerge as a U.S. company 00:11:21:19 - 00:11:25:04 because that's where the majority of their revenue and profit actually comes from. 00:11:25:12 - 00:11:28:22 The U.K. is a very open market from a transactional standpoint. 00:11:29:20 - 00:11:32:05 There has been an increase over recent years 00:11:32:05 - 00:11:34:22 in terms of various governmental 00:11:34:22 - 00:11:38:11 or regulatory approvals for certain types of transactions, 00:11:38:11 - 00:11:41:00 but it still remains an incredibly open market, 00:11:41:17 - 00:11:44:01 an incredibly deal-friendly market, 00:11:44:05 - 00:11:48:06 and private equity have developed a very strong 00:11:48:06 - 00:11:52:10 and broad-based experience set to transact in the U.K. market, 00:11:53:01 - 00:11:55:08 which we are seeing across a whole host 00:11:55:08 - 00:11:56:19 of different transactions, 00:11:56:19 - 00:11:59:04 whether that be from the more infrastructure fund 00:11:59:04 - 00:12:02:21 end of the universe, through to more or less every sector 00:12:02:21 - 00:12:07:01 that has a reasonable ability to sustain leverage 00:12:07:01 - 00:12:08:06 and generate cash flow. 00:12:08:19 - 00:12:09:16 Amélie, similar? 00:12:10:00 - 00:12:12:12 Likewise, absolutely likewise. 00:12:13:04 - 00:12:18:19 You have the large private equity like Brookfield 00:12:18:19 - 00:12:23:03 who have basically been leading the league tables in France. 00:12:24:03 - 00:12:31:11 Last year, they acquired Neoen, an independent, an IPP group. 00:12:31:11 - 00:12:36:07 You have also French private equities like Ardian 00:12:36:07 - 00:12:45:09 yesterday announced the acquisition of the Irish utility Energia. 00:12:45:09 - 00:12:53:16 It's extremely active, extremely diverse across the large-cap and the mid-cap sectors. 00:12:53:16 - 00:12:58:01 You would basically replicate what you are seeing in the U.K. in France. 00:12:58:20 - 00:13:02:03 And a really important point on this, 00:13:02:03 - 00:13:04:03 which I think is quite different to the U.S., 00:13:04:03 - 00:13:08:18 is looking at public capital versus private capital as a source of financing. 00:13:08:18 - 00:13:13:18 The IPO market in Europe as a whole has been pretty low. 00:13:13:18 - 00:13:17:02 London in particular is really struggling to gain momentum. 00:13:17:08 - 00:13:21:09 We've had a few IPOs in the last couple of weeks finally, 00:13:21:09 - 00:13:25:17 but it's been a really tough place to find capital. 00:13:26:13 - 00:13:28:15 But it's not because the capital's not there. 00:13:28:18 - 00:13:32:07 It's because private capital and private equity is so prevalent. 00:13:32:22 - 00:13:35:02 There's so much liquidity to come from that world 00:13:35:02 - 00:13:38:03 that companies are able to finance themselves without going public. 00:13:38:10 - 00:13:43:03 And I think that's certainly something we observe as different over here, 00:13:43:03 - 00:13:44:18 where IPOs continue to happen. 00:13:45:07 - 00:13:47:22 It continues to be a relatively thriving public market scene. 00:13:48:13 - 00:13:53:07 I think across Europe, the public markets haven't quite recovered 00:13:53:07 - 00:13:59:15 where they were five, ten years ago in terms of being the natural, logical place for private equity 00:13:59:15 - 00:14:04:15 to exit or indeed private companies to find liquidity. 00:14:04:22 - 00:14:08:08 As I think you'll both appreciate, there's been a great deal of uncertainty that's 00:14:08:08 - 00:14:14:13 been injected into our economies, more broadly speaking, including the impact of tariffs. 00:14:15:06 - 00:14:20:16 I'm wondering how corporates or sponsors in your market think about that uncertainty 00:14:20:16 - 00:14:24:09 and how they factor that into their approach as it relates to dealmaking. 00:14:25:20 - 00:14:28:15 So maybe in terms of some of the experiences we've had, 00:14:28:15 - 00:14:33:10 it's interesting because we've often had black swan events 00:14:33:10 - 00:14:37:08 as part of how you model out your financial plan. 00:14:37:08 - 00:14:40:11 And it's not ever going to be a plain sailing upward trend. 00:14:40:14 - 00:14:43:18 There'll be bumps along the way and they'll happen periodically. 00:14:44:06 - 00:14:48:16 The number of conversations we've had recently with people making a very similar observation, 00:14:48:16 - 00:14:54:23 which is we've gone from Covid to geopolitical challenges 00:14:54:23 - 00:14:59:15 and massive inflationary pressures to tariffs and other issues like that 00:14:59:15 - 00:15:05:11 that are impacting how people see the predictability of their cash flows going forwards. 00:15:06:06 - 00:15:09:08 And they're happening almost year after year after year. 00:15:09:12 - 00:15:12:13 And so it slightly becomes a case of these aren't black swan events. 00:15:12:18 - 00:15:17:05 There's a more baseline level of risk and uncertainty that has to be factored in. 00:15:17:19 - 00:15:22:16 Now, to some extent, this should be and probably is factored into the public market valuations 00:15:22:16 - 00:15:26:21 and investors around the world in every market are 00:15:26:21 - 00:15:29:14 reflecting that in the price on the screen any given day. 00:15:29:21 - 00:15:33:23 Certainly one of the boardroom-type conversations we're seeing 00:15:33:23 - 00:15:35:16 is a real focus around capital allocation. 00:15:36:10 - 00:15:39:14 And in a world where you have got greater inflationary pressures 00:15:39:14 - 00:15:43:15 and greater premium on equity, perhaps because of the risk dynamics, 00:15:43:15 - 00:15:48:07 there is that greater focus around share buybacks versus M&A 00:15:48:07 - 00:15:51:23 and the justification of M&A from a financial standpoint, 00:15:51:23 - 00:15:53:14 from a return standpoint 00:15:53:14 - 00:15:55:12 over and above the strategic rationale. 00:15:56:16 - 00:16:05:08 I would say that at this juncture, in spite of the political uncertainties, 00:16:05:08 - 00:16:12:12 the budgetary uncertainties, French companies, which are very global, 00:16:12:12 - 00:16:19:03 have factored currently in their investment decision, 00:16:19:03 - 00:16:25:08 the uncertainties at a much greater level than it was six months ago. 00:16:25:11 - 00:16:29:09 I would like to thank both Dean and Amélie for joining me today. 00:16:29:13 - 00:16:33:08 They are partners, but they're also friends, and I hope you've enjoyed our conversation. 00:16:33:12 - 00:16:34:11 Look forward to the next time. 00:16:34:15 - 00:16:35:07 Thank you, Kevin.