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Travis Bader: So today's podcast is pretty
massive in the world of Canadian firearms.

00:00:13.180 --> 00:00:17.830
Insofar as we're talking about
authorizations to carry for an A TC

00:00:18.369 --> 00:00:22.660
and a TC is something that's typically
viewed as unobtainium, meaning

00:00:23.080 --> 00:00:27.790
it's almost aus the way that it's
issued by the RCMP firearms program.

00:00:29.700 --> 00:00:31.005
But I've kind of templated pro.

00:00:31.970 --> 00:00:38.920
And we've been successful since about 1994
onwards and been on the bleeding edge of

00:00:38.990 --> 00:00:46.640
every new authorization to carry recipient
for wilderness carry, for work reasons.

00:00:47.080 --> 00:00:50.859
Every single time a new policy change
has been made, or there's changes

00:00:50.859 --> 00:00:52.400
to regulations or legislation.

00:00:53.510 --> 00:00:56.269
I've always held this pretty
close to my chest because I

00:00:56.269 --> 00:00:58.799
didn't want to jinx the process.

00:00:59.260 --> 00:01:02.800
And everyone who came to us for the
authorization to carry has always been

00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:04.889
somebody who needed it for work reasons.

00:01:05.550 --> 00:01:08.160
And it just made it
streamlined and easy for them.

00:01:08.780 --> 00:01:11.009
I was put in touch with today's guest.

00:01:11.490 --> 00:01:14.840
She'd been working with the National
Firearms Association for quite some

00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:20.869
time, and they were unsuccessful in
getting her ATC when I got in touch

00:01:20.869 --> 00:01:25.530
with her in no time flat, she was issued
her ATC, she met all the requirements.

00:01:25.539 --> 00:01:29.689
It was just a matter of making sure
you check the boxes in the proper way.

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I figured, and she figured that
this is something that probably

00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:38.140
shouldn't be held close to the chest.

00:01:38.370 --> 00:01:40.030
This is something that if we.

00:01:40.490 --> 00:01:42.910
Let everybody know the process
of how it goes through.

00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:46.430
It'll normalize it and make it far
easier for other people in the future.

00:01:46.890 --> 00:01:52.370
It also has an interesting side
consequence, which is in Canada, there's

00:01:52.390 --> 00:01:57.890
a handgun freeze that's in effect
where you can't purchase new handguns.

00:01:58.300 --> 00:02:00.870
However, if you need it for work reasons.

00:02:01.405 --> 00:02:05.005
That's one of the ways individuals
can be issued a handgun.

00:02:06.115 --> 00:02:09.325
For this podcast, rather than doing
it in the studio, I took it on the

00:02:09.325 --> 00:02:12.154
road and we went to a pretty cool
place where actually, if you're

00:02:12.164 --> 00:02:14.045
watching this, we're inside a barn.

00:02:14.385 --> 00:02:16.114
Luckily you don't see
the floor of the barn.

00:02:16.115 --> 00:02:19.724
We needed to control our lighting in
some way, but a pack rat had definitely

00:02:19.725 --> 00:02:23.145
taken up a home in this place and
there was a mess everywhere, but.

00:02:23.489 --> 00:02:24.489
Hey, we braved it.

00:02:24.529 --> 00:02:26.920
We sat in there, we recorded the podcast.

00:02:27.420 --> 00:02:29.170
And I also combined this into a hunt.

00:02:29.220 --> 00:02:30.630
My wife and I went hunting.

00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:32.230
It was a successful hunt.

00:02:32.359 --> 00:02:34.930
We've got meat in the
freezer, had a great time.

00:02:35.390 --> 00:02:39.829
I use my Nanook pack for all of the
camera gear that I took for traveling.

00:02:39.830 --> 00:02:42.370
I use my Nanook hard bow case for my bow.

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And the reason I bring that up
is because Nanook is a Silvercore

00:02:46.340 --> 00:02:48.400
Club brand partner, one of many.

00:02:48.770 --> 00:02:51.730
You get 25 percent off if you're
a Silvercore Club member when

00:02:51.730 --> 00:02:53.110
buying any Nanook product.

00:02:53.940 --> 00:02:58.020
I like Nanook because they're Canadian
made, they're robust, they're durable.

00:02:58.250 --> 00:02:59.630
They look really cool.

00:02:59.720 --> 00:03:00.450
It works well.

00:03:00.450 --> 00:03:03.470
If you've got expensive equipment and you
want to make sure it's well protected,

00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:06.120
throw it in a case, rest assured.

00:03:06.289 --> 00:03:09.859
If you're not a Silvercore club
member, I would highly recommend it.

00:03:09.890 --> 00:03:12.939
I mean, put aside all of the brand
partners that we have and the

00:03:12.989 --> 00:03:14.489
amazing discounts that you get.

00:03:15.109 --> 00:03:18.979
You also get free training,
free online training, quite a

00:03:18.979 --> 00:03:22.149
number of Silvercore products.

00:03:22.454 --> 00:03:24.495
You got insurance North America wide.

00:03:25.025 --> 00:03:27.705
There's also that other
interesting piece of the puzzle.

00:03:27.705 --> 00:03:32.475
That kind of goes along with this podcast
here included free in every silver core

00:03:32.475 --> 00:03:36.265
club membership is the RCMP approved.

00:03:36.615 --> 00:03:37.704
Gun club membership.

00:03:37.945 --> 00:03:41.525
So if you own restricted firearms
and the RCMP requires you to show

00:03:41.525 --> 00:03:46.925
proof I'm belonging to a approved
gun club or range, the civil court

00:03:46.925 --> 00:03:49.254
club is an RCMP approved club.

00:03:50.494 --> 00:03:53.464
Without further ado, let's
get this podcast rolling.

00:03:54.204 --> 00:03:54.704
All right.

00:03:54.704 --> 00:03:55.695
This is going to be a fun one.

00:03:55.715 --> 00:03:58.204
I've been looking forward
to this one for a while.

00:03:58.225 --> 00:04:04.655
I'm sitting down with Canada's newest
ATC authorization to carry recipient.

00:04:05.355 --> 00:04:08.875
I've been watching your
social media for a while.

00:04:08.875 --> 00:04:11.555
We've been chatting back
and forth for a long time.

00:04:12.044 --> 00:04:14.345
Love the adventures that
you're on professional.

00:04:14.810 --> 00:04:17.350
Guide, professional trapper.

00:04:17.790 --> 00:04:20.990
Welcome to the Silvercorp
podcast, Rachel Attila.

00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:22.690
Rachel Athila: Travis, thank you so much.

00:04:23.030 --> 00:04:24.119
Had some accolades there.

00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:24.980
I've got a lot to live up to.

00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:26.490
Travis Bader: Man.

00:04:26.510 --> 00:04:27.170
Oh, there's more.

00:04:27.170 --> 00:04:27.880
I could go into more.

00:04:27.979 --> 00:04:28.640
Should I go into more?

00:04:30.599 --> 00:04:35.530
Um, this is, so I've talked about getting
an ATC in the past on the podcast.

00:04:35.750 --> 00:04:37.510
I think what we're going to
call this one, maybe just.

00:04:37.875 --> 00:04:41.425
ATC Masterclass, Authorization
to Carry Masterclass.

00:04:41.645 --> 00:04:42.335
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:04:42.405 --> 00:04:45.075
Travis Bader: So I've been
doing this since about 1994.

00:04:45.105 --> 00:04:47.455
I got my first authorization
to carry when I turned 18.

00:04:48.125 --> 00:04:51.795
That would be around, I don't know when
that was, late nineties, mid nineties.

00:04:52.545 --> 00:04:58.930
And, uh, Every province in Canada
is going to issue authorizations to

00:04:58.930 --> 00:05:01.110
transport a little bit differently.

00:05:01.420 --> 00:05:05.329
Over the years, they've worked
at standardizing the process, but

00:05:05.329 --> 00:05:09.670
that said, there is no standard
process for an ATC issuance.

00:05:10.330 --> 00:05:15.289
We have had many, uh, professionals
from different backgrounds who've

00:05:15.309 --> 00:05:18.410
gone through and they've tried to
get their ATC on their own and they

00:05:18.410 --> 00:05:20.450
failed and they failed miserably.

00:05:20.700 --> 00:05:20.740
Rachel Athila: Yes.

00:05:20.740 --> 00:05:21.010
Yeah.

00:05:21.470 --> 00:05:24.630
Travis Bader: And the reason I'm
told, I've been told this by a

00:05:24.630 --> 00:05:28.350
couple different firearms officers,
is that, uh, they have a mandate

00:05:28.350 --> 00:05:30.040
to make getting an ATC difficult.

00:05:30.370 --> 00:05:32.610
One firearms officer told me, he
says, Oh, we don't want to have

00:05:32.610 --> 00:05:35.150
everybody running around willy
nilly with a handgun on their hip.

00:05:36.255 --> 00:05:37.095
And I said, why not?

00:05:37.345 --> 00:05:42.815
I mean, really, what is it your
concern if they are properly trained

00:05:42.815 --> 00:05:45.835
and properly licensed and they have
a legitimate reason to be out there.

00:05:46.075 --> 00:05:47.685
Rachel Athila: And jumped
through the three ring circus.

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Cause let me tell you, it
is not an easy process.

00:05:50.325 --> 00:05:50.855
Travis Bader: Right.

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And that, I mean, holy crow, that's
where I'm going to really love your

00:05:55.095 --> 00:05:57.335
fresh perspective and full disclosure.

00:05:57.955 --> 00:05:59.545
I've been doing this for a long time.

00:05:59.835 --> 00:06:02.799
Uh, we've got a 100 percent
success rate for every week.

00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.870
Applicant who's come through,
these are legitimate people with

00:06:05.870 --> 00:06:07.180
legitimate reasons to have it.

00:06:07.830 --> 00:06:11.310
Um, a hundred percent success rate for
anyone looking to be a trapper, looking,

00:06:11.340 --> 00:06:13.160
working in a remote wilderness area.

00:06:13.440 --> 00:06:14.509
They're working in

00:06:14.520 --> 00:06:15.230
Rachel Athila: industries,

00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:17.130
Travis Bader: working as armed guards.

00:06:17.750 --> 00:06:19.109
And I didn't want.

00:06:19.900 --> 00:06:20.610
To talk about it.

00:06:20.660 --> 00:06:23.950
I didn't want to tell people about
it because I was concerned that this

00:06:23.950 --> 00:06:28.630
secret sauce that we've had for a
very long time would get burnt out

00:06:28.669 --> 00:06:30.849
and people would stop getting it.

00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:36.969
But in talking with you, um, I've come
to the realization based in part on

00:06:36.980 --> 00:06:41.630
your, uh, your background and your
assurances and your perspective as well.

00:06:42.030 --> 00:06:44.870
That we should normalize
this process for everybody.

00:06:45.050 --> 00:06:47.670
Rachel Athila: Well, I think Travis,
that's, I mean, we've stalked each other

00:06:47.670 --> 00:06:50.840
through social media and I think that's
where the grand conversation really

00:06:50.840 --> 00:06:55.549
came together because I almost made a
plea and coming into, for people that

00:06:55.549 --> 00:06:59.609
don't know me, I've been a professional
hunting guide for a decade and a half.

00:06:59.679 --> 00:07:03.130
Um, as well as I work remotely,
you know, as a trapper now, also

00:07:03.130 --> 00:07:07.239
as a rancher, and I've had several
professions in oil and gas as well, you

00:07:07.239 --> 00:07:09.550
know, that, You, in Canada, we are 99.

00:07:09.550 --> 00:07:13.849
9 percent rural for a lot of
our jobs and you get across, you

00:07:13.849 --> 00:07:15.400
know, up from the 49th parallel.

00:07:16.200 --> 00:07:19.630
But when I originally thought, you
know, I would love to be able to carry a

00:07:19.630 --> 00:07:22.780
pistol years ago, there was no answers.

00:07:22.789 --> 00:07:23.659
No one would help me.

00:07:23.659 --> 00:07:27.079
And so it was very serendipitous
that we crossed paths when

00:07:27.080 --> 00:07:28.320
I made a plea last year.

00:07:28.320 --> 00:07:31.940
And I'm really excited to dive into this
with you because there are people out

00:07:31.940 --> 00:07:36.440
there that, for life saving matters,
This could actually make a difference.

00:07:36.470 --> 00:07:41.020
And I know for myself as a professional
guide, I wish my only regret is I

00:07:41.020 --> 00:07:44.490
wish I would have done this as soon
as I had got my restricted license.

00:07:45.200 --> 00:07:50.139
The amount of times where carrying a
pistol on your person, having interactions

00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:54.200
with wildlife, taking care of clients,
you know, now even working so remotely

00:07:54.200 --> 00:07:58.980
in the winter on a trapline, um, and
even here on a cattle ranch in the remote

00:07:58.980 --> 00:08:02.554
part of British Columbia, there are so
many instances that, uh, you know, If

00:08:02.575 --> 00:08:06.085
anything, as we dive into this podcast,
I really hope people take away this.

00:08:06.085 --> 00:08:07.164
This isn't a fast track.

00:08:07.344 --> 00:08:08.935
This isn't cheating off a test.

00:08:09.195 --> 00:08:13.514
This is giving you the tools for the
people that this actually qualifies for.

00:08:13.674 --> 00:08:16.744
And I think that's one thing, like you
said, you didn't want to debunk it and,

00:08:16.965 --> 00:08:20.244
and make it so it's like, Oh, this is
the easy way to go and get a test guys.

00:08:20.515 --> 00:08:23.854
It's like, if you're dedicated and
you're truly passionate about this

00:08:23.865 --> 00:08:26.109
as a tool, This is a podcast for you.

00:08:26.239 --> 00:08:28.520
Travis Bader: A thousand
percent, but it begs a question.

00:08:28.950 --> 00:08:29.999
And I think I know the answer.

00:08:31.379 --> 00:08:36.080
Why didn't you apply after getting your
restricted license right off the bat?

00:08:36.730 --> 00:08:39.420
Rachel Athila: The biggest
thing, I hit roadblocks.

00:08:39.630 --> 00:08:42.660
I would try and go to different
gun ranges and I would be blocked.

00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:43.780
They'd be like, Oh, it's too hard.

00:08:43.780 --> 00:08:47.050
Or there's, you know, there's a test
and, and no one wanted to offer the test.

00:08:47.060 --> 00:08:50.510
So I literally started going to
every single range when I would

00:08:50.550 --> 00:08:53.479
travel through and I got nowhere.

00:08:53.935 --> 00:08:58.714
I, I, at the time I, I literally was a
gypsy, I had a pimped out storage locker.

00:08:59.055 --> 00:09:01.805
And so part of having restricted
firearm, as you know, is you have

00:09:01.805 --> 00:09:04.604
to have a place of residence, you
know, you have to have, that's where

00:09:04.604 --> 00:09:06.164
your home address is, a locked safe.

00:09:06.165 --> 00:09:07.904
You have to have all the prerequisites.

00:09:08.274 --> 00:09:11.614
So part of the reason I didn't pursue
it earlier is I didn't have a fixed

00:09:11.614 --> 00:09:16.415
address, but as I matured, you know,
settled down my gypsy ways a little bit,

00:09:17.254 --> 00:09:18.904
I started to go, okay, you know what?

00:09:19.185 --> 00:09:20.105
I wanted to pursue this.

00:09:20.105 --> 00:09:24.944
So at the end of 2018, 2019, when I was
wrapping up in the territories, I started

00:09:24.944 --> 00:09:28.954
going down the rabbit hole a little
bit more and I correct me as I'm wrong.

00:09:28.985 --> 00:09:33.364
I obviously, you know, this comes from
my firsthand knowledge, what I had been

00:09:33.365 --> 00:09:37.625
told Was I'm a BC resident, wanting to
travel to the Northwest Territories,

00:09:37.865 --> 00:09:39.155
traveling through the restrictions.

00:09:39.155 --> 00:09:42.615
At one time I had been told that I
would need to be certified in BC.

00:09:43.074 --> 00:09:46.375
I would have to travel through
the Yukon on a special ATC permit,

00:09:46.435 --> 00:09:49.395
go to the Northwest Territories,
jump through a bunch of hoops, but

00:09:49.395 --> 00:09:51.374
that BC and the NWT work together.

00:09:52.515 --> 00:09:54.645
Albert and the NWT and BC and the Yukon.

00:09:54.755 --> 00:09:57.825
So I, I started having this
convoluted story that it was like,

00:09:58.175 --> 00:10:00.085
wow, this is like chasing a unicorn.

00:10:00.085 --> 00:10:02.175
I have no idea how to go about this.

00:10:02.475 --> 00:10:05.354
Travis Bader: One thing I think I
should probably make very clear it

00:10:05.354 --> 00:10:07.245
off the bat and I can't speak for you.

00:10:07.245 --> 00:10:07.834
So I'll ask you this.

00:10:07.844 --> 00:10:10.854
Have you had legal training,
professional legal training, gone

00:10:10.855 --> 00:10:12.495
to school or you pass a bar test?

00:10:12.665 --> 00:10:13.605
You're, you're not a lawyer.

00:10:13.635 --> 00:10:13.805
I'm

00:10:13.805 --> 00:10:14.285
Rachel Athila: not a lawyer.

00:10:14.324 --> 00:10:14.525
No.

00:10:15.705 --> 00:10:18.185
Travis Bader: I have not had
professional legal training.

00:10:18.265 --> 00:10:19.225
I'm not a lawyer.

00:10:19.435 --> 00:10:22.625
So everything that you and I
are talking about here is going

00:10:22.625 --> 00:10:24.535
to be from our experience.

00:10:24.965 --> 00:10:28.025
We have had legal training
in certain areas, but not as.

00:10:28.245 --> 00:10:31.525
Professional lawyers, so we are
not qualified to give legal advice.

00:10:31.585 --> 00:10:32.205
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:10:32.235 --> 00:10:33.675
Travis Bader: So I think
that's an important thing

00:10:33.675 --> 00:10:35.075
to get off the, off the go.

00:10:35.465 --> 00:10:40.824
Um, and I should probably throw in the
word allegedly in front of this podcast,

00:10:41.075 --> 00:10:45.605
because I'm going to make references and
you might as well to things that, uh, have

00:10:45.605 --> 00:10:47.444
been relayed to you that you've heard.

00:10:47.444 --> 00:10:50.955
And so we'll just throw a big, an
allegedly over the entire podcast.

00:10:51.625 --> 00:10:53.705
Rachel Athila: These are two people that
are just trying to help everyone else.

00:10:53.735 --> 00:10:54.545
And exactly.

00:10:54.575 --> 00:10:56.064
Allegedly, this is what have happened.

00:10:56.075 --> 00:10:56.115
Great.

00:10:57.420 --> 00:10:59.300
By no means, I hope it's
easier for everyone else.

00:10:59.790 --> 00:11:00.380
Travis Bader: A hundred percent.

00:11:00.709 --> 00:11:02.180
Well, um, okay.

00:11:02.180 --> 00:11:03.829
So you brought up a couple
of interesting things.

00:11:03.839 --> 00:11:09.210
You talked about, uh, traveling from
British Columbia, Northwest Territories.

00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:14.470
Uh, so in the firearms act, they talk
about geographical extent and your

00:11:14.560 --> 00:11:18.250
possession and acquisition license is
going to have a geographical extent.

00:11:18.455 --> 00:11:22.205
Across Canada, uh, different
authorizations that are issued

00:11:22.235 --> 00:11:23.805
are going to be done provincially.

00:11:23.805 --> 00:11:27.045
So an authorization to transport an
authorization to carry, these are going to

00:11:27.045 --> 00:11:29.525
be provincial things that are set forth.

00:11:29.735 --> 00:11:33.544
They are written down in the firearms
act and the firearms act regulations,

00:11:33.845 --> 00:11:38.445
but on top of that, the different
provincial bodies that we've got

00:11:38.465 --> 00:11:40.225
opt in and opt out provinces.

00:11:40.225 --> 00:11:42.965
So some will say, ah, we're
going to do our own thing.

00:11:42.965 --> 00:11:46.255
We're a province and we're going to do
our own Take care of things ourselves.

00:11:46.324 --> 00:11:50.285
Others will say, no, we're going
to fall under the broader federal

00:11:50.915 --> 00:11:54.265
RCMP firearms program, and
we're going to work with them.

00:11:54.275 --> 00:11:56.165
So we've got opt in and opt out provinces.

00:11:56.774 --> 00:11:59.384
Um, they will make policy.

00:11:59.944 --> 00:12:00.475
So.

00:12:01.029 --> 00:12:04.140
We have legislation, we've
got regulations, we've got

00:12:04.140 --> 00:12:05.780
policy that we're dealing with.

00:12:05.780 --> 00:12:09.850
And this is just somebody who's
a civil servant working in their

00:12:09.939 --> 00:12:13.300
office, trying to come up with
the best process that they can.

00:12:13.790 --> 00:12:16.619
And then we've got the last piece of
the puzzle, which is going to be those

00:12:16.630 --> 00:12:22.050
civil servants trying to understand that
policy and apply it to those regulations

00:12:22.290 --> 00:12:24.009
in the framework of the legislation.

00:12:24.119 --> 00:12:27.290
And there's going to be personalities
that you have to deal with too.

00:12:27.310 --> 00:12:27.680
So.

00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.769
This I'm hoping is going to give
experiences that I've seen, that

00:12:31.779 --> 00:12:37.140
you've seen that kind of encompany
the company, that kind of encompass,

00:12:37.199 --> 00:12:38.430
that kind of encompass all of them.

00:12:38.530 --> 00:12:38.760
Yeah.

00:12:39.260 --> 00:12:42.079
And I think that's an important
way to kind of frame this.

00:12:42.110 --> 00:12:44.309
If somebody is listening to this
and they want to go through and get

00:12:44.309 --> 00:12:48.355
their ATC, Just because I'm right,
doesn't mean I'm going to get it.

00:12:48.475 --> 00:12:49.115
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:12:49.145 --> 00:12:51.235
Travis Bader: Just because I meet
the laws doesn't mean I'll get it

00:12:51.235 --> 00:12:52.885
because I might not meet the policy.

00:12:53.175 --> 00:12:57.305
The policy isn't a law and you
could argue that up and down and

00:12:57.705 --> 00:13:00.385
it might just be the personality
that you're dealing with as well.

00:13:00.685 --> 00:13:03.495
It's unfortunate, but
that's, that's, that's life.

00:13:03.515 --> 00:13:04.405
That's how it works.

00:13:04.644 --> 00:13:05.314
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:13:05.904 --> 00:13:09.524
Travis Bader: So you talked about
geographical extent and there was

00:13:09.524 --> 00:13:12.145
something else that you brought up that
was kind of clicked in the back of my

00:13:12.145 --> 00:13:16.305
head as you're talking and, um, um, it'll
come to me as we go through, I'm sure.

00:13:17.660 --> 00:13:18.189
So,

00:13:18.810 --> 00:13:21.510
Rachel Athila: might've been,
um, where I was geographically at

00:13:21.510 --> 00:13:23.109
home, as far as like, that's it.

00:13:23.130 --> 00:13:23.560
There you go.

00:13:23.620 --> 00:13:24.040
Travis Bader: Okay.

00:13:24.060 --> 00:13:24.870
A hundred percent.

00:13:25.319 --> 00:13:26.290
See, I'm glad you're sharp.

00:13:27.069 --> 00:13:28.550
Rachel Athila: I had two
cups of coffee this morning.

00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:29.579
We're perking right along.

00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:30.410
Travis Bader: I love it.

00:13:30.430 --> 00:13:34.479
So, uh, home, you said, I
didn't have a home address.

00:13:34.925 --> 00:13:36.265
Rachel Athila: And a lot of guides don't.

00:13:36.295 --> 00:13:36.885
A lot of people don't.

00:13:36.915 --> 00:13:37.775
A lot of people don't.

00:13:37.785 --> 00:13:40.245
We're, especially in North
America and Northwest, we're

00:13:40.245 --> 00:13:41.905
transient, we're chasing jobs.

00:13:41.915 --> 00:13:45.435
So that for me, I would love for you
to help explain that because there's a

00:13:45.435 --> 00:13:47.025
lot of people I think that speaks to.

00:13:48.204 --> 00:13:50.194
Travis Bader: And there's a lot of
people that don't actually have,

00:13:50.234 --> 00:13:52.214
let's say a mailing address, right?

00:13:52.224 --> 00:13:54.745
There's going to be people
who live on reservations and

00:13:54.745 --> 00:13:56.435
they're going to have different.

00:13:57.410 --> 00:14:02.810
Uh, they say, well, my, my house is
a fifth one down past the big, big,

00:14:02.930 --> 00:14:04.150
uh, tree or whatever it might be.

00:14:04.150 --> 00:14:07.519
And this is me talking to the firearms
officers and having gone through

00:14:07.520 --> 00:14:13.329
this in the past, um, I remember
there was a, a fellow, uh, passed

00:14:13.329 --> 00:14:16.749
on a long time ago, uh, he had Lou
Gehrig's disease, I think ALS there.

00:14:16.910 --> 00:14:19.650
Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
and, Mike Gallon and they called, he

00:14:19.650 --> 00:14:23.880
had a gun shop back in the day called
Mike's musket shop and multimillionaire,

00:14:23.880 --> 00:14:25.020
really interesting fellow.

00:14:25.140 --> 00:14:30.070
He was the one that, uh, when you're
talking with my wife earlier about, uh,

00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:31.609
staying in the place with all the rats.

00:14:32.260 --> 00:14:37.069
So multimillionaire left all of his
money, uh, to his wife and his kid

00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:41.810
and made himself a cinder block hut
out in Lillooet where the Bridge

00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:43.080
River and the Ellicott River meet.

00:14:43.830 --> 00:14:49.770
And his mailing address at that time
was all to a post office box and I

00:14:49.770 --> 00:14:51.290
was helping him out there for a while.

00:14:51.290 --> 00:14:55.390
So while I was there, my mailing
address was out at a post office box.

00:14:55.390 --> 00:14:57.459
This isn't an uncommon situation, right?

00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:02.209
There's people who will not have a
physical location and there's going

00:15:02.209 --> 00:15:06.630
to be people who don't necessarily
store firearms at their residence, they

00:15:06.630 --> 00:15:10.400
store it at a gun shop, they store it
at their, The business and my business

00:15:10.400 --> 00:15:11.930
might have a business firearms license.

00:15:12.319 --> 00:15:15.819
So you don't actually have to
have a fixed address in order

00:15:15.819 --> 00:15:17.599
to have restricted firearms.

00:15:17.920 --> 00:15:18.509
Rachel Athila: Really?

00:15:18.540 --> 00:15:18.999
Travis Bader: Really.

00:15:19.009 --> 00:15:19.430
And

00:15:19.439 --> 00:15:20.369
Rachel Athila: there's a mic drop.

00:15:20.389 --> 00:15:20.969
Travis Bader: Yeah.

00:15:21.209 --> 00:15:23.910
So that was kind of an
interesting one that I've learned.

00:15:23.959 --> 00:15:28.219
I know that a lot of people say, well, I
remember I went through this one too with

00:15:28.219 --> 00:15:33.839
the chief firearms officer and, uh, Uh,
going back and forth and specifically on

00:15:33.839 --> 00:15:39.180
the fixed address, um, uh, requirement.

00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:41.500
Cause they said, no, you need
it, you need it, you need it.

00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:46.820
And finally, after about, uh, close to
a year later, uh, our chief firearms

00:15:46.820 --> 00:15:51.009
officer was able to come back and say,
here's where we get our legal authority.

00:15:51.310 --> 00:15:55.070
I had to go to the parliamentary records
and there's this, uh, thing called the

00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:59.530
order prescribing forms and, Documents
or something along these lines, because

00:15:59.530 --> 00:16:04.190
we ask for it on this form, that's
where we get our legal authority.

00:16:04.190 --> 00:16:06.290
And I say, that doesn't
make any sense to me.

00:16:06.290 --> 00:16:06.640
Right.

00:16:06.790 --> 00:16:09.109
It's supposed to be, it's
on this form because there's

00:16:09.110 --> 00:16:10.250
a legal requirement for it.

00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:11.590
Not, we put it on the form.

00:16:12.189 --> 00:16:14.629
It passed all the scrutiny
to be on the form.

00:16:14.629 --> 00:16:16.999
And now that's what we're
leaning on for our legal.

00:16:17.430 --> 00:16:18.850
Uh, our legal standing.

00:16:18.900 --> 00:16:19.350
So,

00:16:19.459 --> 00:16:20.490
Rachel Athila: so take home from that.

00:16:20.490 --> 00:16:23.760
If you're a guide, if you're a
transient, if you're a worker, you,

00:16:23.890 --> 00:16:25.430
you can actually move forward on this.

00:16:25.430 --> 00:16:25.440
A

00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.180
Travis Bader: hundred percent.

00:16:26.180 --> 00:16:27.510
You can't, you don't have to have.

00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:31.280
Rachel Athila: That's a big thing for me
that I was told because I didn't have, and

00:16:31.880 --> 00:16:36.210
like I said, Allegedly, I was told because
I didn't meet certain requirements,

00:16:36.430 --> 00:16:39.840
you know, and doing due diligence,
I didn't want to, you know, leave a

00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:44.320
firearm in a safe at, you know, whosoever
address I was most common to go to.

00:16:44.350 --> 00:16:44.800
Right.

00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:46.320
Because I was trying
to do the right thing.

00:16:46.419 --> 00:16:46.779
Right.

00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:47.459
Well, as long

00:16:47.459 --> 00:16:50.415
Travis Bader: as you're the one with
the Control over that firearm, right?

00:16:50.415 --> 00:16:50.605
You can.

00:16:50.615 --> 00:16:50.795
With a

00:16:50.795 --> 00:16:53.145
Rachel Athila: lock to the safe,
which I had and everything else.

00:16:53.145 --> 00:16:54.465
So there you go.

00:16:54.574 --> 00:16:57.395
Travis Bader: And when you think about
it, like my first ATC was for a number

00:16:57.395 --> 00:16:58.584
of car company I was working for.

00:16:59.095 --> 00:17:00.265
I didn't own the firearm.

00:17:00.265 --> 00:17:01.385
They all belonged to the company.

00:17:01.385 --> 00:17:06.224
I go there, I pick up the gun, load it
up, holster the thing, go do my work,

00:17:06.234 --> 00:17:07.954
come back, unload it, leave it there.

00:17:07.954 --> 00:17:10.694
So there's going to be situations
where people have them stored

00:17:10.714 --> 00:17:13.845
either under a business license
or under their own individual

00:17:13.845 --> 00:17:16.139
license, but storage is not allowed.

00:17:16.369 --> 00:17:19.889
Doesn't, as long as the firearms
program has an understanding of

00:17:19.889 --> 00:17:22.980
where they are, cause that part is
actually written out in the law.

00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.410
Uh, they have to know where, where the
guns are, so you just let them know.

00:17:26.609 --> 00:17:27.799
Rachel Athila: Yeah, absolutely.

00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:28.359
There you go.

00:17:28.689 --> 00:17:29.879
That's a big thing for myself.

00:17:29.890 --> 00:17:30.410
That was,

00:17:30.870 --> 00:17:31.019
Travis Bader: that

00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:33.970
Rachel Athila: was probably one of
the biggest hindering moments, um,

00:17:33.980 --> 00:17:35.989
was I didn't know if I qualified.

00:17:35.990 --> 00:17:40.430
And, and again, I couldn't find a very
staunch answer for it, a yes or a no.

00:17:41.945 --> 00:17:45.454
So it wasn't until 2020, I had
the opportunity to partner with

00:17:45.454 --> 00:17:47.605
Sig Sauer right before COVID.

00:17:48.185 --> 00:17:52.375
So all of a sudden, all of my ambitions
and dreams to be able to have a

00:17:52.375 --> 00:17:55.444
pistol, uh, started to come true.

00:17:55.474 --> 00:17:57.265
Unfortunately, the world shut down.

00:17:57.285 --> 00:18:01.135
I was supposed to be in transit
going to Arizona for, um, six to

00:18:01.135 --> 00:18:02.355
eight months on a work permit.

00:18:02.745 --> 00:18:04.855
So I was going to have
my pistols down there.

00:18:04.895 --> 00:18:05.284
Travis Bader: Right.

00:18:05.405 --> 00:18:07.475
Rachel Athila: So unfortunately,
you know, COVID happened.

00:18:07.514 --> 00:18:13.855
Um, And then for the listeners that might
not know, in Canada in 2022, it became

00:18:14.315 --> 00:18:17.405
part of legislation that we were going to
have a pistol freeze or handgun freeze.

00:18:18.255 --> 00:18:22.304
And so I had been scrambling because
in my head, I still thought I

00:18:22.305 --> 00:18:23.665
have to have a permanent address.

00:18:23.975 --> 00:18:25.454
I didn't belong to a gun range.

00:18:25.455 --> 00:18:28.685
I didn't, I mean, I had a horse
trailer and a truck and I was working

00:18:28.695 --> 00:18:30.315
calving jobs and guiding jobs.

00:18:30.585 --> 00:18:33.555
So I let a lot of my preconceived notions.

00:18:33.915 --> 00:18:36.955
Drive the fact that I couldn't
go after securing those pistols

00:18:36.955 --> 00:18:38.534
to get them moved here to Canada.

00:18:38.814 --> 00:18:39.514
Travis Bader: Interesting.

00:18:39.834 --> 00:18:40.225
Rachel Athila: So.

00:18:40.465 --> 00:18:40.654
Travis Bader: Yeah.

00:18:40.654 --> 00:18:44.344
And honestly, I think that's,
your story isn't unique out of all

00:18:44.344 --> 00:18:47.314
the people that I've worked with,
I hear it time and time again.

00:18:47.634 --> 00:18:49.004
Oh, you can't do it cause.

00:18:49.104 --> 00:18:49.445
Right.

00:18:49.465 --> 00:18:51.225
And they've got all
these different reasons.

00:18:51.225 --> 00:18:56.395
You can't do it cause, or I heard my buddy
and they said, it's essentially illusory.

00:18:56.405 --> 00:19:03.184
If a law is so far out of reach and
it's so, uh, unobtainable that it's

00:19:03.184 --> 00:19:07.384
deemed to be illusory, then it can be
struck down or it can come under review

00:19:07.784 --> 00:19:11.304
again, not a lawyer, but there's,
there's a legal process for all of that.

00:19:12.125 --> 00:19:17.985
Um, so my hope and our hope, your hope
through doing this is that we take that

00:19:18.025 --> 00:19:21.965
illusory aspect to all of this and we
put it into a bit more of a concrete.

00:19:22.364 --> 00:19:22.965
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:19:23.004 --> 00:19:26.435
So check one, you don't have
to have your permanent fixed

00:19:26.435 --> 00:19:29.044
address as getting your ATC.

00:19:29.044 --> 00:19:30.995
And I think that's a
big step moving forward.

00:19:31.174 --> 00:19:32.604
Had I known that years ago?

00:19:32.644 --> 00:19:33.234
Travis Bader: You would have had it.

00:19:34.254 --> 00:19:38.975
So the other interesting thing that people
need to understand, and a firearms officer

00:19:38.975 --> 00:19:43.705
took me aside and told me this, it says,
look at Travis, we've got a mandate to

00:19:43.725 --> 00:19:51.794
scrutinize ATC applicants really, really
carefully and to deny as many as possible.

00:19:52.210 --> 00:19:53.750
We don't want to be issuing this.

00:19:53.750 --> 00:19:54.909
We don't want people going out.

00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:55.730
This is our mandate.

00:19:55.730 --> 00:19:56.700
This is what we've been told.

00:19:57.389 --> 00:20:01.509
Um, whether that's true or not, or just
something, this firearms officer took me

00:20:01.509 --> 00:20:03.779
aside and was blowing smoke, who knows.

00:20:03.779 --> 00:20:03.999
Right.

00:20:03.999 --> 00:20:08.169
But if that's true, and I have no reason
to doubt the veracity of that statement,

00:20:08.629 --> 00:20:13.610
that there is an internal mandate to
not issue them, then people have to

00:20:13.610 --> 00:20:18.835
understand, okay, if I'm approaching
this, I have to Understand how this game

00:20:18.835 --> 00:20:23.975
is going to be played, how we're going
to play ball together so that whoever it

00:20:23.975 --> 00:20:27.455
is that has their name that has to stamp
off and say, they're giving it to you

00:20:28.254 --> 00:20:34.574
can be a, provided all of the assurances
that they're, uh, doing things properly

00:20:34.574 --> 00:20:38.595
and they can go back to their boss and
say, I had to cause the law said ABC

00:20:38.605 --> 00:20:42.375
and I put up my points and my objections
and note, this person's a legitimate

00:20:42.375 --> 00:20:43.675
candidate and they should get it.

00:20:43.675 --> 00:20:47.955
So, um, How you talk and
deal with that civil servant.

00:20:47.995 --> 00:20:53.144
If you have offhand comments or
jokes and, uh, they'll get rid of it.

00:20:53.144 --> 00:20:53.174
It's

00:20:53.184 --> 00:20:54.645
Rachel Athila: very much a work interview.

00:20:54.905 --> 00:20:58.894
In my experience, you know, uh, I was
very thankful to cross paths with you

00:20:58.894 --> 00:21:02.894
because I was able to bounce ideas and,
and just even certain the way that I

00:21:02.894 --> 00:21:08.260
phrase things, you know, um, People
have to take this with seriousness.

00:21:08.530 --> 00:21:10.790
You are asking to carry
a pistol on your hip.

00:21:11.120 --> 00:21:13.769
I mean, in the States, you can go and buy
one and you have it home in half an hour.

00:21:13.970 --> 00:21:17.430
Here in Canada, we've had legislation
that has been abolished in the past.

00:21:18.620 --> 00:21:22.649
You do, it is a life saving tool,
but it is also, you know, a weapon.

00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:28.320
And I think people, you know, I, my
biggest fear is that people are going

00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:30.600
to take this podcast and go, well,
I'm just going to go apply for it.

00:21:30.600 --> 00:21:33.350
But like you say, you have
to be serious in your intent.

00:21:33.800 --> 00:21:36.220
You can not come across as flippant.

00:21:36.420 --> 00:21:40.090
You can not come across as this
is just, you know, a means to

00:21:40.090 --> 00:21:42.400
an end to carry a pistol to feel
like John Wayne for the weekend.

00:21:42.970 --> 00:21:43.340
Right?

00:21:43.470 --> 00:21:43.629
Well,

00:21:43.629 --> 00:21:44.050
Travis Bader: that's it.

00:21:44.089 --> 00:21:49.099
Well, and it's funny that in the States,
like I talked to Brad Brooks, he owns

00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:53.380
our galley and he says, I can't believe
you guys aren't afforded the ability to

00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:57.220
go hunting with a bow and have a handgun
for protection against bear, right?

00:21:57.220 --> 00:22:01.564
And like in their world, this
is, It's just completely out,

00:22:01.584 --> 00:22:02.675
the launch is ridiculous.

00:22:02.675 --> 00:22:02.895
Right.

00:22:02.895 --> 00:22:04.695
And in our world, it's
like, Oh, a handgun.

00:22:04.695 --> 00:22:06.074
That's that's extra dangerous.

00:22:06.074 --> 00:22:07.304
It's that's extra scary.

00:22:07.784 --> 00:22:10.394
And really it's, there's no difference
between your handgun and your rifle,

00:22:10.395 --> 00:22:12.054
except the bullet doesn't travel as fast.

00:22:12.054 --> 00:22:13.145
It doesn't travel as far.

00:22:13.145 --> 00:22:14.514
It doesn't do as much damage.

00:22:14.774 --> 00:22:16.024
It's just, just smaller,

00:22:16.084 --> 00:22:19.205
Rachel Athila: but it's been
criminalized in Canada, pistols.

00:22:19.605 --> 00:22:22.305
And, you know, restricted
rifles are criminalized.

00:22:22.355 --> 00:22:25.175
I remember the first time I touched
a pistol when I went to the States,

00:22:25.395 --> 00:22:26.775
it was like the forbidden fruit.

00:22:26.815 --> 00:22:29.575
And I literally, I literally sat
back and I was like, you're just

00:22:29.575 --> 00:22:31.365
gonna have to pretend like I don't
know what I'm doing with this.

00:22:31.635 --> 00:22:33.914
And then the people I was with, I
said, run me through everything.

00:22:35.015 --> 00:22:40.265
Because in Canada, and I hunt, I guide,
I have been around weapons a long time,

00:22:41.195 --> 00:22:45.564
but even my own prejudice on the pistol
was everything that we had been taught.

00:22:45.564 --> 00:22:49.814
So I think a lot of it is
stepping away from this prejudice

00:22:49.815 --> 00:22:50.805
that we put on this tool.

00:22:50.815 --> 00:22:55.074
Like you said, it is still a
projectile that comes out of a

00:22:55.085 --> 00:22:58.205
shorter, smaller, more compact firearm.

00:22:59.295 --> 00:23:00.995
Travis Bader: And you brought up a
good point there too, cause you called

00:23:00.995 --> 00:23:04.465
it a weapon and gun people like, it's
not a weapon, it's a firearm, right?

00:23:04.790 --> 00:23:09.140
Well, actually in Canada, if you look
at the law, a weapon is what it's

00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:14.470
anything used, designed to be used,
intended to be used to cause, uh, death

00:23:14.610 --> 00:23:19.840
or serious bodily, grievous bodily
harm to another individual or used to

00:23:19.840 --> 00:23:21.559
intimidate or threaten those things.

00:23:21.560 --> 00:23:22.809
And I'm paraphrasing the lie.

00:23:22.820 --> 00:23:27.350
I've actually got it here, but I'll
paraphrase it and without precluding the

00:23:27.350 --> 00:23:29.910
generality of the foregoing includes.

00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:29.940
A

00:23:30.270 --> 00:23:30.880
Rachel Athila: firearm,

00:23:31.620 --> 00:23:31.850
Travis Bader: right?

00:23:31.850 --> 00:23:34.630
And then a firearm could also just
be the frame or receiver of it.

00:23:34.630 --> 00:23:35.690
So in Canada.

00:23:36.135 --> 00:23:38.905
Guns are legally considered weapons.

00:23:39.185 --> 00:23:39.645
Rachel Athila: Exactly.

00:23:39.665 --> 00:23:42.665
Travis Bader: So that, that's part of
the idea and framework that we're also

00:23:42.665 --> 00:23:46.065
looking at when we go through this is
if you come from the United States and

00:23:46.065 --> 00:23:49.405
you're like, I just want this thing to
protect my life and laws say they're here.

00:23:49.865 --> 00:23:53.349
You're going to be treated as an
individual who's looking for protection.

00:23:53.350 --> 00:24:00.380
So, let's take a look, I've got a
couple, before I get into it, did

00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:01.499
you want to say anything before I?

00:24:01.510 --> 00:24:03.890
Rachel Athila: No, I think like that's
a, I think this is a really great

00:24:03.890 --> 00:24:07.730
precursor because, you know, we have
to identify one, the major thing as gun

00:24:07.730 --> 00:24:10.659
owners, we have to have a registered
address because years ago we had to be

00:24:10.659 --> 00:24:14.729
able to register all our firearms, you
know, there's been different legislation

00:24:14.729 --> 00:24:18.235
that's moved through over the last, you
However many years, however far we want

00:24:18.235 --> 00:24:20.195
to go back, everything seems to change.

00:24:20.505 --> 00:24:23.525
So I think it's important to people to
know that if they work in this industry

00:24:23.525 --> 00:24:29.534
or an industry that's relatable, you
can own one as long as you obviously are

00:24:29.534 --> 00:24:33.994
solely responsible for where it's locked,
where it's kept, you know, speak to that.

00:24:33.994 --> 00:24:35.424
If I've misrepresented that.

00:24:35.455 --> 00:24:35.595
Yeah.

00:24:35.644 --> 00:24:36.225
Travis Bader: No, you can own it.

00:24:36.225 --> 00:24:36.495
Yeah.

00:24:36.825 --> 00:24:40.035
Rachel Athila: And two, obviously this
has to be taken seriously because this

00:24:40.045 --> 00:24:42.125
is, you know, a life saving device.

00:24:42.175 --> 00:24:43.155
It is a tool.

00:24:43.355 --> 00:24:46.765
Um, A very handy tool at that.

00:24:47.045 --> 00:24:49.675
And I think that sets the
stage as we jump into it.

00:24:49.845 --> 00:24:50.235
Beautiful.

00:24:50.235 --> 00:24:51.385
Let's find out who can carry these.

00:24:51.475 --> 00:24:52.005
Travis Bader: Okay.

00:24:52.015 --> 00:24:54.475
So we've got the laws, these laws,
you guys could download them.

00:24:54.495 --> 00:24:58.464
You look on online, these under
the regulations, circumstances

00:24:58.464 --> 00:25:00.044
in which an individual needs.

00:25:00.429 --> 00:25:01.759
And they put the word needs.

00:25:01.860 --> 00:25:03.040
So that's an important one.

00:25:03.489 --> 00:25:08.179
Restricted firearms or prohibited handguns
for the purpose of section 20 of the act.

00:25:08.549 --> 00:25:13.120
And so restricted firearms, generally
we're talking about handguns

00:25:13.120 --> 00:25:16.819
in Canada, but there are other
restricted long guns, prohibited

00:25:16.819 --> 00:25:21.529
handguns, it, uh, lays out those are
going to be what 32 and 25 caliber.

00:25:21.999 --> 00:25:24.399
Maybe, maybe not depends what
you're using them for, but they

00:25:24.399 --> 00:25:29.109
will fall in the prohibited handgun
area, uh, 105 millimeter or less.

00:25:29.274 --> 00:25:29.905
Barrel length.

00:25:30.365 --> 00:25:33.975
Uh, when I first was carrying a
gun around, it had an under 105

00:25:33.985 --> 00:25:35.965
millimeters, so it was a prohibited.

00:25:36.015 --> 00:25:36.755
Rachel Athila: That's prohibited.

00:25:36.755 --> 00:25:36.925
Yeah.

00:25:37.025 --> 00:25:37.895
Travis Bader: Prohibited handgun.

00:25:37.905 --> 00:25:37.925
Yeah.

00:25:38.455 --> 00:25:40.945
So I'll read through some of the laws.

00:25:40.945 --> 00:25:42.865
I won't go through all of them,
but I'll just, I think it's

00:25:42.865 --> 00:25:45.585
important that we just kind of
look at the words as we go through.

00:25:46.024 --> 00:25:49.324
We'll, Brush on the first one, for the
purpose of Section 20 of the Act, the

00:25:49.324 --> 00:25:52.824
circumstances of which an individual
needs restricted firearms or prohibited

00:25:52.824 --> 00:25:58.365
handguns to protect the life of that
individual or other individuals are

00:25:58.365 --> 00:26:05.324
where, A, the life of that individual or
other individuals is in imminent danger

00:26:05.584 --> 00:26:08.834
from one or more other individuals.

00:26:09.185 --> 00:26:09.735
Imminent danger.

00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:14.420
Being the key word, like, okay, right now,
not like going a year from now, imminent.

00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:20.719
B, police protection is not sufficient
in the circumstances and C, the

00:26:20.719 --> 00:26:24.539
possession of a restricted firearm or
prohibited handgun can reasonably be

00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:29.200
justified for protecting the individual
or other individual, individuals

00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:32.340
from death or grievous bodily harm.

00:26:32.870 --> 00:26:33.180
Okay.

00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:34.270
So we know what death is.

00:26:34.280 --> 00:26:35.200
Grievous bodily harm.

00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:35.790
Do you know what that is?

00:26:36.305 --> 00:26:38.255
Rachel Athila: Grievous bodily harm,
I would imagine if someone's intending

00:26:38.255 --> 00:26:43.565
you harm, um, you're putting yourself
into a situation where you are unarmed.

00:26:44.095 --> 00:26:47.835
Travis Bader: So the courts have
generally, from what I've seen,

00:26:47.875 --> 00:26:51.175
again, not legal advice, but they've
looked at grievous bodily harm as

00:26:51.175 --> 00:26:56.345
being something that's, let's say
broken bones, uh, major disfigurement.

00:26:56.505 --> 00:27:00.765
So your amputations, uh, would be
a form of grievous bodily harm.

00:27:00.765 --> 00:27:02.375
Someone's going to try
and break your bone.

00:27:02.385 --> 00:27:05.314
They say, okay, that's, I can
defend my life because we don't

00:27:05.315 --> 00:27:06.425
know where this is going to stop.

00:27:06.544 --> 00:27:10.684
Um, unconsciousness would be one of them
would be considered grievous bodily harm.

00:27:10.685 --> 00:27:14.115
So if you're getting choked unconscious
and that happened, um, to you.

00:27:14.745 --> 00:27:19.615
Here a number of years ago, um,
uh, it was in the newspapers, I

00:27:19.625 --> 00:27:23.455
think it was a hockey, uh, it was
a hockey player or a hockey game.

00:27:23.455 --> 00:27:27.165
Someone had a few too many drinks
and ended up, um, shot by the

00:27:27.165 --> 00:27:29.794
police, uh, in police custody.

00:27:29.794 --> 00:27:33.234
And they said, well, this person was
trying to choke the officer unconscious.

00:27:33.234 --> 00:27:34.254
And that constitutes,

00:27:34.944 --> 00:27:35.885
Rachel Athila: um, Grievous bodily harm.

00:27:35.885 --> 00:27:38.455
Travis Bader: Grievous
bodily harm, uh, severe cuts.

00:27:38.505 --> 00:27:40.530
So these are going to
be, uh, Yeah, slashing

00:27:40.530 --> 00:27:41.450
Rachel Athila: with harm to intent.

00:27:41.690 --> 00:27:41.950
Right.

00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.330
Travis Bader: So that's
generally kind of what grievous

00:27:44.340 --> 00:27:45.600
bodily harm kind of looks at.

00:27:45.600 --> 00:27:48.070
So I think it's good that
people look at the framework.

00:27:48.389 --> 00:27:56.100
The number of people who actually get
an ATC issued for this are slim to none.

00:27:56.789 --> 00:27:56.809
So

00:27:56.809 --> 00:27:59.059
Rachel Athila: what's, what,
what industry would that be then?

00:27:59.299 --> 00:27:59.999
Travis Bader: So.

00:28:00.255 --> 00:28:07.205
What I've heard anecdotally, um, and
we do work all across Canada, um,

00:28:07.215 --> 00:28:08.755
deal with different police agencies.

00:28:09.735 --> 00:28:13.544
What I've heard allegedly, this is
going to be, let's say a judge is

00:28:13.544 --> 00:28:16.085
dealing with, uh, organized crime.

00:28:16.094 --> 00:28:20.784
There's a verified threat and, um,
they say, well, here you go, here's

00:28:20.784 --> 00:28:23.444
something, make sure you protect yourself.

00:28:23.444 --> 00:28:23.564
Right.

00:28:24.264 --> 00:28:29.875
Uh, the times I've heard that happen,
they've just given the individual.

00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:31.750
A firearm or the person had a firearm.

00:28:31.750 --> 00:28:32.580
This is sure not a problem.

00:28:32.580 --> 00:28:33.260
You can pack it.

00:28:33.770 --> 00:28:36.010
Despite the fact that if we
read further, they say you've

00:28:36.010 --> 00:28:37.000
got to have proper training.

00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:39.780
You don't have these things, but if you
think about it, if someone's an imminent.

00:28:40.730 --> 00:28:43.540
Do we have time to be able to give
that training and all that vetting?

00:28:44.169 --> 00:28:49.290
So this is one that I don't have
the most experience with aside from

00:28:49.290 --> 00:28:54.219
working with, I remember a gun store
back in the day, there was concern

00:28:54.229 --> 00:28:58.409
over being robbed and there's,
it's happened at other gun stores.

00:28:58.409 --> 00:29:02.449
There's one in the, in British Columbia,
this is going back a bit, but, um,

00:29:03.090 --> 00:29:06.320
uh, robbery, I believe the, uh, the
owners were both killed in this one.

00:29:06.840 --> 00:29:09.399
Um, and so anyways, this gun
store owner looked at it and

00:29:09.399 --> 00:29:11.440
says, I'm dealing in an industry.

00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.120
It's the criminal element.

00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:15.120
It's desirable for them to be around here.

00:29:15.470 --> 00:29:17.680
I want to be able to protect myself.

00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.660
So they went through,
they did the training.

00:29:19.660 --> 00:29:24.149
We went, met all of the different points
and the firearms officer came back

00:29:24.149 --> 00:29:25.950
and said, and it was, it was a game.

00:29:25.959 --> 00:29:26.970
It was go home, pack it forth.

00:29:26.979 --> 00:29:29.239
Like we don't want to issue
it, but we can't really say no.

00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:35.049
And they, it was kind of like a funny,
aha, I think we've got you here.

00:29:35.389 --> 00:29:35.509
Right.

00:29:35.919 --> 00:29:37.709
They said, we will issue.

00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.190
Your ATC for what you've requested,
because you've met all of the

00:29:42.190 --> 00:29:46.810
requirements, uh, save one, we just
need you to give us a letter from the

00:29:46.810 --> 00:29:51.489
chief of police saying that police
protection is not adequate for you.

00:29:52.370 --> 00:29:56.610
What chief of police is going to write off
and say, police protection isn't adequate.

00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.469
And the reality is what's that
old saying when seconds count,

00:29:59.499 --> 00:30:00.889
the police are minutes away.

00:30:01.605 --> 00:30:04.735
Like we need, we need the, if
you need the police right now,

00:30:04.825 --> 00:30:05.145
Rachel Athila: and

00:30:05.145 --> 00:30:06.665
Travis Bader: there is
a threat on your life.

00:30:06.765 --> 00:30:07.885
Rachel Athila: Well,
they can't be everywhere.

00:30:07.895 --> 00:30:07.945
They

00:30:07.945 --> 00:30:10.754
Travis Bader: can't, unless,
unless they just happen to be

00:30:10.775 --> 00:30:12.184
in the store at the same time.

00:30:12.775 --> 00:30:15.524
But, uh, they came back after as they
said, well, I got to hand it to you.

00:30:15.525 --> 00:30:18.994
You've come the closest to getting
issued one of these that we've

00:30:18.995 --> 00:30:20.854
seen under your circumstances.

00:30:22.045 --> 00:30:26.195
Anyways, that, that was sort of my
experience on that one, as well as

00:30:26.195 --> 00:30:31.724
the, all the anecdotal of, uh, judges
or people that are being given one

00:30:31.724 --> 00:30:36.215
hastily because they need one and
then immediately after that threat's

00:30:36.215 --> 00:30:37.205
no longer there, it's revoked.

00:30:37.895 --> 00:30:38.245
Rachel Athila: Gotcha.

00:30:38.534 --> 00:30:39.994
So short term, temporary.

00:30:40.144 --> 00:30:40.334
Yeah,

00:30:40.525 --> 00:30:40.914
Travis Bader: that's it.

00:30:40.974 --> 00:30:41.344
Yeah.

00:30:41.474 --> 00:30:43.394
So there's only, if
there's an imminent threat.

00:30:43.625 --> 00:30:49.275
Um, next one is where you fall in,
and this is the one where we've had

00:30:49.275 --> 00:30:52.944
a hundred percent success rate with
everyone that we've worked with lawful

00:30:52.944 --> 00:30:57.754
profession or occupation for the
purposes of section 20 of the act, the

00:30:57.754 --> 00:31:01.804
circumstances in which an individual
needs restricted firearms or prohibited

00:31:01.865 --> 00:31:06.434
handguns for use in connection with his
or her lawful profession or occupation.

00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:12.190
or occupation, or where a, the
individual's principal activity is the

00:31:12.190 --> 00:31:17.410
handling, transportation, or protection
of cash, negotiable instruments, or

00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:22.139
other goods of substantial value, and
firearms are required for the purposes of

00:31:22.139 --> 00:31:26.750
protecting his or her life, or the lives
of other individuals in the course of that

00:31:26.750 --> 00:31:28.339
handling, transportation, or protection.

00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:29.770
Or protection activity.

00:31:30.230 --> 00:31:32.700
So that's an armored
car guard essentially.

00:31:32.710 --> 00:31:36.160
So they're going to get one, their
principal primary activity is

00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:37.970
transport of cash or negotiables.

00:31:38.630 --> 00:31:42.879
Interesting ones that we've seen that
have been issued under there would be,

00:31:43.579 --> 00:31:48.235
um, A guy had a stamp business and he's
transporting stamps back and forth.

00:31:48.315 --> 00:31:48.955
Rachel Athila: Oh, really?

00:31:48.985 --> 00:31:49.435
Yeah.

00:31:49.485 --> 00:31:55.555
Travis Bader: And that was a, considered
a, uh, negotiable instrument or

00:31:55.795 --> 00:31:57.765
other goods of substantial value.

00:31:58.384 --> 00:32:03.684
I've heard of, um, I've seen
them for marijuana transport, for

00:32:03.974 --> 00:32:04.975
Rachel Athila: I mean, we are in BC.

00:32:05.055 --> 00:32:05.595
We are in BC.

00:32:07.145 --> 00:32:11.670
Travis Bader: Um, And for transporting
of firearms, if that's where you're

00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:14.330
transporting them back and forth
and they're issued one for that.

00:32:14.330 --> 00:32:17.540
So there's a whole bunch of use
cases and it's pretty wide open.

00:32:17.619 --> 00:32:23.990
Basically, if an individual wants that
license, uh, their principal activity.

00:32:24.170 --> 00:32:26.990
That they're going to say is handling,
transporting, or protecting of

00:32:27.050 --> 00:32:30.560
cash, negotiable instruments, or
other goods of substantial value.

00:32:31.510 --> 00:32:37.180
And the important one in all of that
is again, isn't there to protect the

00:32:37.180 --> 00:32:40.499
cash or the negotiable instruments
or goods of substantial value.

00:32:40.850 --> 00:32:41.850
Rachel Athila: It's to protect the person.

00:32:41.879 --> 00:32:42.379
Travis Bader: That's it.

00:32:42.450 --> 00:32:44.410
It's only there to protect life.

00:32:45.070 --> 00:32:47.270
Someone says, give me all your
money or I'm going to kill you.

00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:48.420
Here's the money.

00:32:48.760 --> 00:32:49.050
Rachel Athila: Yep.

00:32:49.070 --> 00:32:49.580
Travis Bader: There it is.

00:32:49.590 --> 00:32:50.570
It's easy, right?

00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:52.019
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:52.139
It's,

00:32:52.415 --> 00:32:54.145
Travis Bader: Then they would want
to take that next step and they're

00:32:54.145 --> 00:32:57.265
going to put your life in the threat
of death or grievous bodily harm.

00:32:57.715 --> 00:33:01.524
That's when you start getting into
the justifiable use of that firearm

00:33:01.525 --> 00:33:03.335
and the use case for that firearm.

00:33:03.804 --> 00:33:06.215
That goes into a whole
different discussion on use

00:33:06.215 --> 00:33:08.245
of force and probably goes.

00:33:08.454 --> 00:33:08.784
And probably

00:33:08.784 --> 00:33:10.235
Rachel Athila: negotiations
and everything else.

00:33:10.235 --> 00:33:13.185
But I think that's a very important
way of actually depicting that is

00:33:13.185 --> 00:33:17.575
that in that situation, you're They're
going to try not to use the firearm.

00:33:17.635 --> 00:33:20.695
You're going to use justifiable
cause to say, you know what?

00:33:20.695 --> 00:33:23.055
Here's what, here's a token
you're after, take it.

00:33:23.405 --> 00:33:23.895
Travis Bader: Yes.

00:33:24.135 --> 00:33:27.165
Rachel Athila: I think that's the biggest
thing is that you, just because you have

00:33:27.165 --> 00:33:29.764
your permit and your pistol doesn't mean
you necessarily always want to use it.

00:33:29.764 --> 00:33:31.435
You don't want to be
flying off the handle.

00:33:31.435 --> 00:33:34.759
So that's where it comes into the
rationale and the mindset behind it.

00:33:34.950 --> 00:33:38.630
I think it's hugely important when people
are taking into this as consideration.

00:33:39.030 --> 00:33:40.630
Travis Bader: What do they say,
if you're a hammer, everything

00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:41.730
looks like a nail, right?

00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.019
Rachel Athila: I, I mean, I haven't
heard that one in a while, but that, I

00:33:47.019 --> 00:33:49.050
think that just definitely falls in suit.

00:33:49.149 --> 00:33:49.519
Travis Bader: Right.

00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:50.509
Oh, I got my gun.

00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:51.110
There you go.

00:33:51.129 --> 00:33:52.570
Now, where do I use it?

00:33:52.619 --> 00:33:53.050
Here I go.

00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:54.760
Rachel Athila: Start
looking like Yosemite Sam.

00:33:54.770 --> 00:33:55.610
Travis Bader: That's right.

00:33:55.940 --> 00:34:01.070
So, uh, It's interesting, that
mindset, because like in the

00:34:01.070 --> 00:34:03.720
States, um, they've got, uh.

00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:03.930
Shoot

00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:05.040
Rachel Athila: first, ask questions later.

00:34:05.130 --> 00:34:06.770
Travis Bader: Well, in some States, right?

00:34:06.800 --> 00:34:11.289
They, but, but they also have, um,
what, why is it slipping me right now?

00:34:11.310 --> 00:34:11.959
I've got one.

00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:17.250
It's, um, uh, your carry permit,
your, um, CCW, concealed carry.

00:34:17.259 --> 00:34:17.720
And, right.

00:34:17.720 --> 00:34:20.200
And, and some are going
to be non concealed.

00:34:20.200 --> 00:34:21.800
Some States, they have
to have them concealed.

00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:24.690
Like in Washington, if you break
concealment, you're having a problem.

00:34:25.140 --> 00:34:25.400
But.

00:34:25.735 --> 00:34:30.925
You know, they get people
young, macho, got my CCW and

00:34:30.925 --> 00:34:32.695
the, I'm going to be the hero.

00:34:32.695 --> 00:34:33.415
I can jump in.

00:34:33.415 --> 00:34:34.814
I can help the cops out now.

00:34:34.814 --> 00:34:35.054
Right.

00:34:35.055 --> 00:34:36.765
And there's a bank robbery happening.

00:34:36.865 --> 00:34:37.835
Just here I go.

00:34:38.335 --> 00:34:43.614
And they emphasize to a very high degree,
like, no, that that's not your role.

00:34:43.625 --> 00:34:43.865
Right.

00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.420
Something's going on.

00:34:45.430 --> 00:34:47.600
You don't interject yourself into danger.

00:34:48.370 --> 00:34:49.370
You leave.

00:34:49.510 --> 00:34:51.100
If danger finds you.

00:34:51.380 --> 00:34:52.170
Rachel Athila: You protect yourself.

00:34:52.180 --> 00:34:52.349
You

00:34:52.349 --> 00:34:53.430
Travis Bader: have that
to protect yourself.

00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:55.480
And there's, that's what you're saying.

00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:59.060
A very, uh, good point
for people to understand.

00:34:59.560 --> 00:35:02.800
And when you're training people, you can
train people to the point that they're

00:35:02.810 --> 00:35:07.580
just rabid dogs and they're ready to pull
the trigger on anything that moves or, uh,

00:35:07.835 --> 00:35:11.985
That they're so intimidated based on the
laws that they just, they don't draw the

00:35:11.985 --> 00:35:13.765
firearm in situations where they should.

00:35:14.235 --> 00:35:18.795
So in the trainings world, finding
that healthy balance where a person

00:35:18.805 --> 00:35:24.464
uses it in a justifiable way as
they should is, is important, um, to

00:35:24.464 --> 00:35:29.385
protect their life and also knowing
where that, the law stands when we get

00:35:29.385 --> 00:35:34.025
into trapping and working in remote
wilderness areas, the same thing applies.

00:35:34.035 --> 00:35:36.345
It's not a two legged predator
that you're worried about here.

00:35:36.345 --> 00:35:37.425
It's now four legged.

00:35:38.395 --> 00:35:44.205
And there are times when, okay, you're
allowed to use it when you should, but it

00:35:44.205 --> 00:35:46.774
shouldn't be your first resort that you're
going to just cause you got the gun.

00:35:46.814 --> 00:35:47.524
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:35:48.534 --> 00:35:48.924
Travis Bader: Okay.

00:35:49.315 --> 00:35:51.204
Um, here we go.

00:35:51.275 --> 00:35:54.035
Now we're getting right into the territory
you're going to be comfortable in too.

00:35:54.425 --> 00:35:58.115
The individual is working in a
remote wilderness area and firearms

00:35:58.115 --> 00:36:01.765
are required for the protection
of the life of that individual or

00:36:01.805 --> 00:36:04.325
other individuals from wild animals.

00:36:05.435 --> 00:36:10.445
Or, the individual is engaged in the
occupation of trapping in a province and

00:36:10.445 --> 00:36:14.705
is licensed or authorized and trained as
required by the laws of that province.

00:36:15.180 --> 00:36:16.190
You're both of those.

00:36:16.250 --> 00:36:16.920
Rachel Athila: I am.

00:36:16.940 --> 00:36:19.240
Travis Bader: You're one of those
unique people that have both of them.

00:36:19.240 --> 00:36:20.650
Rachel Athila: Both, absolutely.

00:36:20.660 --> 00:36:23.469
And let me tell you, my God,
did it feel good when I had

00:36:23.470 --> 00:36:24.800
both permits come to my door.

00:36:26.020 --> 00:36:27.520
Travis Bader: How long did it take?

00:36:27.520 --> 00:36:29.100
That was one of the Instagram questions.

00:36:29.140 --> 00:36:29.990
How long did that take you?

00:36:30.319 --> 00:36:30.880
Rachel Athila: Four years.

00:36:31.969 --> 00:36:32.579
Four

00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:33.339
Travis Bader: years.

00:36:33.505 --> 00:36:35.655
Rachel Athila: But I had a little
bit of special circumstance because

00:36:35.655 --> 00:36:37.585
obviously I had to get pistols.

00:36:37.585 --> 00:36:38.885
We had a handgun freeze.

00:36:39.135 --> 00:36:43.475
I, my preconceived notion that I couldn't
have it unless I had a permanent address.

00:36:44.124 --> 00:36:48.595
I kind of did the classic textbook, tried
to be good, but realized in being so good

00:36:48.595 --> 00:36:50.334
that I actually was hindering myself.

00:36:50.934 --> 00:36:51.114
Travis Bader: So

00:36:51.114 --> 00:36:52.795
Rachel Athila: from the time
that I actually got the pistols

00:36:52.795 --> 00:36:57.045
here in Canada, it's been from my
submission date for my application.

00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:00.220
I hate to say it, but it
was actually pretty quick.

00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:04.690
And thanks to Travis here, I actually was
able to get through it because I, I had to

00:37:04.690 --> 00:37:08.639
learn a lot of why I was going after it.

00:37:08.649 --> 00:37:11.140
Not, not only because, you know,
obviously I wanted it for personal

00:37:11.140 --> 00:37:15.320
protection, but trying to help
illuminate that for the greater audience.

00:37:15.649 --> 00:37:19.850
And, and that's the thing that, In
the four year process, I feel like

00:37:19.850 --> 00:37:24.470
it was a pilgrimage, but it has also
made me appreciate them as a tool.

00:37:25.230 --> 00:37:29.600
It has also made me furious with
the current freezes that people

00:37:29.609 --> 00:37:33.310
are not able to acquire them for
a tool, for a life saving device.

00:37:34.010 --> 00:37:38.410
And, and my biggest conquest now
is I want people to know that they

00:37:38.410 --> 00:37:43.210
can, you are empowered to find the
right tools to make your job safer.

00:37:43.460 --> 00:37:44.990
Everyone wants to go home
at the end of the day.

00:37:46.060 --> 00:37:47.170
I love what I do.

00:37:48.290 --> 00:37:52.040
Truly, it's been the love of my life
and I love taking people on adventure,

00:37:52.610 --> 00:37:56.670
but a great deal of my entire career has
making sure that they make it home safe.

00:37:56.950 --> 00:38:00.679
And so when I'm taking people into the
back country, putting them on a horse,

00:38:00.690 --> 00:38:04.889
riding through the buck brush, you know,
hunting game, we're putting ourselves

00:38:04.889 --> 00:38:09.410
in the perfect storm, touch wood, that
you hopefully never have to deal with.

00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:12.440
But there are so many people
that do have encounters and I

00:38:12.470 --> 00:38:16.470
just, it is my greatest hope that
people can take this information.

00:38:16.895 --> 00:38:20.535
And apply it to their own lives so
that they don't have themselves caught

00:38:20.535 --> 00:38:24.165
with their pants down, so to speak, you
know, and they have the tools to make

00:38:24.165 --> 00:38:26.424
their job safer at the end of the day.

00:38:26.845 --> 00:38:29.815
Travis Bader: Once we started working
together, how, how long was it?

00:38:31.275 --> 00:38:34.355
Rachel Athila: So I submitted
my application in December.

00:38:34.775 --> 00:38:34.805
Travis Bader: Okay.

00:38:34.995 --> 00:38:39.415
Rachel Athila: Um, that's a two
part answer as well, because I

00:38:39.415 --> 00:38:42.845
didn't have the right information
and I know we talked about that.

00:38:42.845 --> 00:38:45.715
So from, I submitted it in
December, I didn't mail it in.

00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:50.590
I electronically sent it, that was
the ticket because I also was coming

00:38:50.590 --> 00:38:51.960
into my first trapping season.

00:38:52.630 --> 00:38:56.979
So December, I officially got my
paperwork, uh, the beginning of May.

00:38:57.860 --> 00:39:01.090
So, you know, six months,
six, seven months.

00:39:01.720 --> 00:39:06.645
Problem is, is I originally submitted
my application for, um, requesting the

00:39:06.645 --> 00:39:11.040
ATC without having done the actual test.

00:39:11.450 --> 00:39:14.680
Um, the, or the proficiency program.

00:39:15.585 --> 00:39:19.505
Because there was grey areas in the
legislation, and this is just my own

00:39:19.505 --> 00:39:24.215
opinion, but there, there wasn't a
consistent line saying go ahead and do

00:39:24.215 --> 00:39:29.485
your proof of proficiency, send in your
application, um, correct me, uh, it's

00:39:29.485 --> 00:39:35.742
the 5493 or whatever form it is that you
send in the application for the permit.

00:39:35.742 --> 00:39:36.509
Travis Bader: Mm hmm.

00:39:37.770 --> 00:39:41.310
Rachel Athila: You actually, I was told
that this permit was at a standstill

00:39:41.310 --> 00:39:42.790
because I didn't have the rest of it.

00:39:43.660 --> 00:39:46.719
Travis Bader: It's, and it's going
to take a person going through

00:39:46.720 --> 00:39:51.490
these things to think very carefully
as they fill it out and to read

00:39:51.510 --> 00:39:53.870
things carefully and to question.

00:39:54.515 --> 00:39:58.955
Um, so that it's clear in their mind, if
they're dealing with a firearms officer or

00:39:58.955 --> 00:40:02.055
a civil servant, and they say, well, you
need this first, or you need that first.

00:40:02.255 --> 00:40:02.445
Yeah.

00:40:02.675 --> 00:40:04.844
And just say, okay, not a problem.

00:40:05.035 --> 00:40:05.245
Right.

00:40:05.435 --> 00:40:06.145
Rachel Athila: Exactly.

00:40:06.145 --> 00:40:06.245
I

00:40:06.424 --> 00:40:08.275
Travis Bader: have no problem
complying with whatever the

00:40:08.275 --> 00:40:09.635
requirements or policy are.

00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:10.120
Rachel Athila: Yep.

00:40:10.340 --> 00:40:12.030
Travis Bader: But can you
give that to me in writing?

00:40:12.030 --> 00:40:14.340
So I make sure that I've got
some sort of paper trail.

00:40:14.500 --> 00:40:15.050
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:40:15.100 --> 00:40:18.289
I'm just trying to reference it
here, but yes, there was, that was, I

00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:19.849
think the biggest hangup for myself.

00:40:19.849 --> 00:40:20.220
Here it is.

00:40:20.220 --> 00:40:21.240
What is this form here?

00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:24.660
The form that in question is the 5491E.

00:40:25.620 --> 00:40:30.019
So that is the authorization, the
application for the authorization

00:40:30.020 --> 00:40:32.320
to carry restricted firearms
and prohibited handguns.

00:40:33.060 --> 00:40:35.100
So I was in a bit of a special scenario.

00:40:35.490 --> 00:40:38.750
Because I'm very excited and
honored to work with SIG Sauer.

00:40:39.150 --> 00:40:43.240
I had two pistols that were a part of my
package that were meant to come to myself.

00:40:43.240 --> 00:40:47.190
I had my restricted license, you know,
obviously I could take them to and from

00:40:47.190 --> 00:40:52.779
the gun range here in Canada, but I
wanted to go after the ATC, but because

00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:57.480
I, so where, where my mix up is, Travis,
if we're going to dive into that is

00:40:57.930 --> 00:40:59.530
not only did I have these two pistols.

00:41:00.725 --> 00:41:02.465
They were under a company at the time.

00:41:03.135 --> 00:41:06.045
So my big hangup is that I
was training with pistols.

00:41:06.045 --> 00:41:11.445
Once I finally got them to my address,
which took three years, um, is that

00:41:11.455 --> 00:41:15.724
because they're registered under the
address to get your ATC, you have to

00:41:15.724 --> 00:41:19.005
prove proficient on the pistol that you
hope to then have your ATC acquired to.

00:41:19.654 --> 00:41:24.045
So I started jumping through all
of these rabbit holes to train, and

00:41:24.055 --> 00:41:28.745
that's where I thought I had to have
that first application done to be

00:41:28.745 --> 00:41:31.015
able to transport them to and from.

00:41:31.295 --> 00:41:35.005
Lawfully and legally, you
know, um, to go after my

00:41:35.665 --> 00:41:36.185
Travis Bader: ATC,

00:41:36.645 --> 00:41:39.705
Rachel Athila: you know, yes, online,
you can do your, um, your online portal.

00:41:39.705 --> 00:41:43.265
You go through and you have your
authorization to carry or transport.

00:41:43.265 --> 00:41:43.585
Sorry.

00:41:43.585 --> 00:41:46.245
So to go to, and from your gun range,
you have to call it in, submit it

00:41:46.245 --> 00:41:47.404
that way when you have restricted.

00:41:47.844 --> 00:41:50.825
My problem was, is that the,
they weren't registered to me.

00:41:51.995 --> 00:41:53.545
So I ran into hiccups.

00:41:53.805 --> 00:41:56.855
I, I was able to work under a
business license because I am an

00:41:56.855 --> 00:41:58.565
ambassador for a mutual company.

00:41:58.855 --> 00:42:03.725
So I was able to kind of circumvent and
go another route to be able to train.

00:42:04.175 --> 00:42:08.034
But in this, I, I had all of these
little claw hooks that kept coming in

00:42:08.394 --> 00:42:10.175
that looked like they were blocking me.

00:42:10.624 --> 00:42:13.075
Travis Bader: And I think one of the
difficult parts that you had was he

00:42:13.075 --> 00:42:17.245
had a firearms officer who was More
than happy to help out, but you know,

00:42:17.345 --> 00:42:19.035
they've got a job, they go in every day.

00:42:19.035 --> 00:42:21.445
They're not going to lay their
job out on the line to do you

00:42:21.445 --> 00:42:22.965
with some sort of special favor.

00:42:23.245 --> 00:42:25.805
They want to make sure their I's are
dotted and their T's are crossed.

00:42:26.205 --> 00:42:31.505
And it's a lot of times when people
are applying, particularly for an

00:42:31.505 --> 00:42:35.054
authorization to carry, this is
new ground for a firearms officer.

00:42:35.334 --> 00:42:35.884
Absolutely.

00:42:36.334 --> 00:42:39.855
They're going to have the exact
same sort of, I don't know, but I

00:42:39.855 --> 00:42:41.175
was told that you have to do this.

00:42:41.175 --> 00:42:44.245
And I was told, and that's where this
podcast will hopefully create a bit more.

00:42:47.615 --> 00:42:53.885
Rachel Athila: So I think like stepping
back to, if I were, or sorry, so when we

00:42:53.885 --> 00:42:59.295
talk about timeline, it was November where
I actually submitted that, uh, 5491E.

00:42:59.455 --> 00:42:59.965
Travis Bader: Mm hmm.

00:43:00.205 --> 00:43:01.485
Rachel Athila: I heard crickets.

00:43:01.545 --> 00:43:04.715
So I finally, I started calling the CFO
of British Columbia and I said, look,

00:43:04.715 --> 00:43:05.885
this is the program I've submitted to.

00:43:05.885 --> 00:43:09.735
They said, well, I'm You know, have you
actually done your proof of proficiency?

00:43:10.185 --> 00:43:10.365
Travis Bader: And I

00:43:10.365 --> 00:43:12.555
Rachel Athila: was like, well,
no, because it looks like I have

00:43:12.555 --> 00:43:15.264
to submit this application before
I jumped through this hoop.

00:43:16.475 --> 00:43:19.084
And I think that was right around
the time in November that we started

00:43:19.085 --> 00:43:20.314
communicating back and forth.

00:43:20.314 --> 00:43:22.765
And you're like, well, I think
you can go ahead and do this.

00:43:22.885 --> 00:43:23.675
I know you can.

00:43:24.495 --> 00:43:28.335
So that's where in my timeline, because
I didn't, I didn't have a rule book

00:43:28.335 --> 00:43:31.675
saying X, Y, Z, this is how you get
to the formula and say your alphabet.

00:43:31.675 --> 00:43:35.414
And once I had submitted that.

00:43:35.795 --> 00:43:40.655
I then went right ahead and I started
practicing at the range and therein

00:43:40.655 --> 00:43:44.265
lied another problem because I found
out that the registration of my one

00:43:44.265 --> 00:43:48.525
particular firearm that I was going
after and challenging for my trapper's

00:43:49.074 --> 00:43:51.665
application was actually misregistered.

00:43:52.070 --> 00:43:58.220
It was misregistered as a prohibited, even
though I had a very heated conversation,

00:43:58.590 --> 00:43:58.820
Travis Bader: not

00:43:58.830 --> 00:44:01.670
Rachel Athila: heated on my behalf,
but I was scared witless because I

00:44:01.670 --> 00:44:05.840
thought I was in app, I thought I was in
contention and here I had been traveling

00:44:05.860 --> 00:44:07.829
to and from under a business license.

00:44:08.070 --> 00:44:11.040
I had pictures of it and
I, I had measured it.

00:44:11.850 --> 00:44:12.080
Travis Bader: But when

00:44:12.080 --> 00:44:15.560
Rachel Athila: I was caught off guard
away from my pistol, driving to Prince

00:44:15.560 --> 00:44:19.720
George, you know, they're saying,
you, you have a firearm, like hell's

00:44:19.720 --> 00:44:21.060
bells and whistles are coming down.

00:44:21.390 --> 00:44:21.530
Travis Bader: And

00:44:21.530 --> 00:44:24.150
Rachel Athila: I remember calling you in
tears and I was like, I, I I'm screwed.

00:44:24.329 --> 00:44:25.140
I'm never going to get it.

00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:27.379
Travis Bader: I remember trying
to talk you off that ledge.

00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:30.390
Rachel Athila: There was a ledge
and I was hanging on by a branch.

00:44:30.609 --> 00:44:32.320
Travis Bader: And I said, they're wrong.

00:44:33.050 --> 00:44:33.710
They're wrong.

00:44:33.730 --> 00:44:34.000
Right.

00:44:34.240 --> 00:44:34.710
Rachel Athila: You did.

00:44:34.780 --> 00:44:36.890
Travis Bader: Uh, You have
nothing to worry about.

00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:39.170
Make sure you cover your
butt with paper, essentially.

00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:41.700
Um, but it's prohibited.

00:44:41.870 --> 00:44:42.180
Right.

00:44:42.210 --> 00:44:44.960
But you're under a business license
and a business license is licensed

00:44:44.969 --> 00:44:48.710
for prohibited and you're properly
listed in the same way that I carried

00:44:48.710 --> 00:44:52.789
a prohibited firearm for a few years
there working for an armored car company.

00:44:52.790 --> 00:44:53.250
Yep.

00:44:53.365 --> 00:44:55.005
You were doing the exact same thing.

00:44:55.005 --> 00:44:57.215
And then we dug a little
bit deeper and said,

00:44:57.575 --> 00:44:58.175
Rachel Athila: can you

00:44:58.785 --> 00:44:59.745
Travis Bader: get the tape measure out?

00:45:00.245 --> 00:45:01.995
Can we see if this guy's
actually prohibited or not?

00:45:02.415 --> 00:45:08.564
And it's interesting because, uh,
sometimes I can see in myself, I'll have

00:45:08.564 --> 00:45:14.615
a bit of an oppositional approach when
dealing with, um, a firearms officer

00:45:14.625 --> 00:45:18.695
who I, in my mind, or any sort of
person who's in a regulatory position.

00:45:18.695 --> 00:45:21.195
And in my mind, I'm like, they don't
know what they're talking about, right?

00:45:21.195 --> 00:45:21.785
They're wrong.

00:45:21.785 --> 00:45:21.977
Right.

00:45:21.977 --> 00:45:22.169
Yeah.

00:45:22.970 --> 00:45:24.800
And there's, it always
comes back to my head.

00:45:24.810 --> 00:45:27.440
There's a, um, old poem
called the stop sign.

00:45:28.170 --> 00:45:29.050
His way was right.

00:45:29.050 --> 00:45:29.980
His will was strong.

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:31.789
He's just as dead as if he was wrong.

00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:32.150
Right.

00:45:33.310 --> 00:45:33.800
Okay.

00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.589
The guy's like, Oh, the other
one's, other car's got a stop sign.

00:45:36.589 --> 00:45:37.660
I got the right away.

00:45:37.830 --> 00:45:41.849
Doesn't look like you're going to stop,
but nope, that signs, I got all the rules

00:45:41.849 --> 00:45:44.459
on my side, just because you're right.

00:45:44.750 --> 00:45:45.610
This person was right.

00:45:45.610 --> 00:45:46.440
He was dead right.

00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:46.650
Right.

00:45:46.680 --> 00:45:49.020
Just because you're right, doesn't
mean that's a way to approach it.

00:45:49.030 --> 00:45:52.420
So that's where that personality part
comes in because the firearms officer

00:45:52.430 --> 00:45:56.310
dealing with this may or may not have
known all of those different points.

00:45:56.610 --> 00:45:56.850
Yes.

00:45:56.940 --> 00:46:00.260
I don't think that firearms officer
wanted to see you made into a criminal,

00:46:00.270 --> 00:46:04.380
wants to make sure that they're assisting
you because they're a regulatory body.

00:46:04.390 --> 00:46:06.230
Their job really is to help you.

00:46:07.150 --> 00:46:08.830
Bring people into compliance.

00:46:08.950 --> 00:46:09.630
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

00:46:09.660 --> 00:46:10.420
Travis Bader: That's their job.

00:46:10.590 --> 00:46:13.120
Rachel Athila: And I think that was a
very big turning point for me, because

00:46:13.150 --> 00:46:16.279
obviously I said, you know, sir, with
all due respect, I don't believe I do,

00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:19.310
but let me, I'm on the road right now.

00:46:20.009 --> 00:46:21.260
Let me get home.

00:46:21.310 --> 00:46:23.169
And how can I contact you?

00:46:23.169 --> 00:46:24.789
Because obviously I
want to make this right.

00:46:24.950 --> 00:46:28.050
I could have flown off the handle and
been like throwing people under the bus,

00:46:28.700 --> 00:46:32.620
but, and, you know, I ended up having a
relationship, like a good friendship over

00:46:32.620 --> 00:46:36.035
this, where, you In a business sense,
where I was like, look, I am, I'm trying

00:46:36.035 --> 00:46:37.345
to do this to the best of my ability.

00:46:37.665 --> 00:46:39.525
There are so many gray areas here.

00:46:40.255 --> 00:46:44.935
What do I need to do and show
and, and help because this is

00:46:44.935 --> 00:46:46.134
something I'm very passionate about.

00:46:46.175 --> 00:46:47.324
I am working by myself.

00:46:47.395 --> 00:46:52.345
I live extremely remotely, you know,
I, I also, the other part was is that

00:46:52.345 --> 00:46:56.575
I was challenging a higher caliber
because I have a caliber that's in

00:46:56.575 --> 00:46:58.655
between for dispatching wildlife.

00:46:58.655 --> 00:47:02.245
It's a 22 caliber for protection
of life on your trapper's permit.

00:47:02.405 --> 00:47:04.285
It has to be a 40 cal or like a 10 mil.

00:47:05.124 --> 00:47:10.075
I'm at a nine mil and they do have
the authorization if in due cause.

00:47:10.420 --> 00:47:14.670
To help, you know, make that,
uh, restricted effort go forward.

00:47:15.030 --> 00:47:17.500
Travis Bader: And we'll talk about
that a bit as we go through too.

00:47:18.110 --> 00:47:24.530
And I think, um, so go way
back on how long does it take?

00:47:24.530 --> 00:47:27.870
So we have an idea of what it takes for
you for getting the, uh, uh, the permit.

00:47:28.130 --> 00:47:30.370
The fastest I've seen
it is under 24 hours.

00:47:30.580 --> 00:47:31.100
Rachel Athila: Wow.

00:47:31.170 --> 00:47:32.520
I was not 24 hours.

00:47:32.580 --> 00:47:32.850
Travis Bader: Right.

00:47:32.860 --> 00:47:34.070
So that's the fastest.

00:47:34.180 --> 00:47:39.610
And, uh, every time you, uh,
apply for your ATC, it's the exact

00:47:39.610 --> 00:47:41.450
same process when you reapply.

00:47:41.830 --> 00:47:46.019
However, when you reapply, it's easier
for the human to look at this and say,

00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:47.189
well, they've been approved before.

00:47:47.189 --> 00:47:49.480
They met all the same criteria
as they did the first time.

00:47:50.485 --> 00:47:51.135
Here we go.

00:47:51.195 --> 00:47:51.475
Right.

00:47:51.485 --> 00:47:54.975
And less things that change on
our end, I am now obliged to give

00:47:54.975 --> 00:47:57.825
them that, uh, that approval.

00:47:57.835 --> 00:48:02.045
So that brings me to, uh, one piece of
the puzzle that you mentioned there,

00:48:02.045 --> 00:48:07.325
which was you're being told to do
something and where old me many years

00:48:07.325 --> 00:48:09.444
back, it'd be like, no, you're wrong.

00:48:09.495 --> 00:48:10.175
Here's the act.

00:48:10.195 --> 00:48:11.285
Here's the regulations.

00:48:11.415 --> 00:48:11.685
Right.

00:48:11.685 --> 00:48:16.595
And I remember sitting at a, uh,
computer and I had a, um, A friend of

00:48:16.595 --> 00:48:22.745
mine, he's a retired analyst for a large
company and he did strategy for them.

00:48:22.745 --> 00:48:26.625
And we're having a conversation and I
think he's in his eighties right now.

00:48:26.625 --> 00:48:28.215
And he says, Oh, hold on a second.

00:48:28.215 --> 00:48:31.724
I hammer something on the email
and get back to the conversation.

00:48:31.725 --> 00:48:34.645
He says, Travis, can I ask you
what was so important that you

00:48:34.655 --> 00:48:36.465
interrupt our, our conversation?

00:48:37.270 --> 00:48:39.640
To send an email and then get back to it.

00:48:39.640 --> 00:48:41.810
I said, Oh yeah, the,
you know, fire's program.

00:48:41.810 --> 00:48:44.700
They said, A, B, and C, and I'm
showing them that they're wrong.

00:48:44.860 --> 00:48:47.260
I just copied and pasted
the act and showed them.

00:48:47.260 --> 00:48:48.980
And he says, how's that
working out for you?

00:48:48.980 --> 00:48:52.509
I said, honestly, not super great.

00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:53.210
Right.

00:48:53.680 --> 00:48:54.099
He says.

00:48:54.485 --> 00:48:57.825
When you're dealing with anybody,
any civil servant, any person,

00:48:58.525 --> 00:49:00.505
why don't you ask them questions?

00:49:00.615 --> 00:49:05.334
Why don't you put them into a corner, but
give them a door that they can get out of.

00:49:05.365 --> 00:49:05.675
Right?

00:49:05.685 --> 00:49:08.075
So rather than saying, no,
you're wrong cause, right?

00:49:08.334 --> 00:49:11.064
Ask a question to say like
what you did there was perfect.

00:49:11.104 --> 00:49:11.974
I think I'm right.

00:49:12.215 --> 00:49:15.855
Because the only extra thing
that I would say is cover your

00:49:15.855 --> 00:49:17.805
butt in paper, not a problem.

00:49:17.935 --> 00:49:20.405
I think I'm right, but I
will do what you're saying.

00:49:20.955 --> 00:49:23.325
Can you give it to me
in writing in an email?

00:49:23.325 --> 00:49:24.395
So I have a copy of that.

00:49:24.395 --> 00:49:27.275
So as I proceed forward, or if
I'm dealing with somebody else,

00:49:27.544 --> 00:49:29.315
they know that I'm doing things.

00:49:29.485 --> 00:49:29.825
Yes.

00:49:29.925 --> 00:49:31.875
In a way that's, uh, proper.

00:49:32.205 --> 00:49:35.565
And that does two things that protects
you as you're working through.

00:49:35.565 --> 00:49:39.714
But when we talked about how every
single license is issued as if it's

00:49:39.725 --> 00:49:43.225
brand new, that systemizes the process.

00:49:43.305 --> 00:49:44.604
I met it last time.

00:49:45.294 --> 00:49:46.745
How do I not meet it this time?

00:49:46.745 --> 00:49:47.045
Right.

00:49:47.065 --> 00:49:48.455
If you do the exact same thing.

00:49:48.580 --> 00:49:50.650
Rachel Athila: And it shows your
level of professionalism as well.

00:49:50.710 --> 00:49:54.370
And I think that was one of the
biggest parts, um, like where I kind

00:49:54.370 --> 00:49:59.450
of took matters into my own hands and
sent that email saying, you know, I

00:49:59.459 --> 00:50:03.410
had a good tagline upcoming trapping
season, you know, urgent request.

00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:06.100
And it was, um, it was very imminent.

00:50:06.149 --> 00:50:07.529
I am out here by myself.

00:50:07.889 --> 00:50:09.580
Uh, and then.

00:50:09.775 --> 00:50:13.535
Obviously I was able to start a
feed of conversation because like

00:50:13.535 --> 00:50:15.755
you said, everything had a trail.

00:50:15.925 --> 00:50:16.905
I could back it up.

00:50:16.935 --> 00:50:20.485
I could also ask the questions that
weren't being answered or if I wasn't

00:50:20.525 --> 00:50:23.404
understanding, that's another part
is you can ask questions, you can get

00:50:23.404 --> 00:50:28.564
an answer, but if you still aren't
understanding, there's no harm in

00:50:28.564 --> 00:50:30.535
saying, could you please elaborate?

00:50:31.015 --> 00:50:31.655
Travis Bader: I don't understand.

00:50:31.725 --> 00:50:32.345
Rachel Athila: Exactly.

00:50:32.665 --> 00:50:36.635
And, and that was something that
I think moving forward on all

00:50:36.635 --> 00:50:39.585
of the extra training I've done
through my other industry programs.

00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:42.380
You know, it helps.

00:50:42.740 --> 00:50:43.700
Oh my gosh, it helps.

00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:44.230
Travis Bader: I like that.

00:50:44.290 --> 00:50:47.570
I don't understand because
quite often people will say,

00:50:47.580 --> 00:50:48.590
nope, this is how it's done.

00:50:48.600 --> 00:50:49.420
You got to do this.

00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:49.490
Rachel Athila: I

00:50:50.700 --> 00:50:51.670
Travis Bader: don't understand.

00:50:52.540 --> 00:50:53.710
Well, let me explain it to you.

00:50:54.049 --> 00:50:55.040
Oh, hold on a second.

00:50:55.410 --> 00:50:55.490
Yeah.

00:50:55.500 --> 00:50:56.610
I don't understand either.

00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:58.269
I see where you're going, right?

00:50:59.090 --> 00:51:01.419
Because in the same process,
people will think, well, this

00:51:01.420 --> 00:51:02.580
is how it's always been done.

00:51:02.580 --> 00:51:03.980
Here's how we do it moving forward.

00:51:05.100 --> 00:51:05.680
Maybe not.

00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:05.990
Right.

00:51:05.990 --> 00:51:10.235
And just like when I queried our chief
firearms officer, he A hundred percent.

00:51:10.235 --> 00:51:11.145
You got to do it like this.

00:51:11.255 --> 00:51:11.595
I don't know.

00:51:11.815 --> 00:51:12.705
I don't understand.

00:51:12.705 --> 00:51:13.355
Can you show me?

00:51:13.405 --> 00:51:13.805
Right.

00:51:14.075 --> 00:51:14.805
Took a year.

00:51:15.005 --> 00:51:18.845
Oh, it's because of this obscure document
that only certain people have access

00:51:18.845 --> 00:51:20.484
to and it's in the form prescribing.

00:51:21.215 --> 00:51:21.685
Okay.

00:51:21.785 --> 00:51:26.535
Well, that sounds kind of
wishy washy, but I get it.

00:51:27.604 --> 00:51:30.335
I was able to get what I was looking
for anyways, in the end, because.

00:51:31.570 --> 00:51:33.710
I don't need to make the
person look like a fool.

00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:36.950
I can paint them in a corner and
give them that door to get out.

00:51:37.160 --> 00:51:40.420
That's not a problem, but I don't
need to rub it in their face.

00:51:40.449 --> 00:51:45.370
And I, and I see that often with, uh,
when people get frustrated, I've seen it

00:51:45.370 --> 00:51:47.120
because I work in the firearms community.

00:51:47.120 --> 00:51:50.199
When people in the firearms community
get frustrated, like you can't do

00:51:50.209 --> 00:51:51.900
that to me and you can't do this.

00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:52.470
Yeah.

00:51:52.470 --> 00:51:54.320
You might be right, but
is that helping you?

00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:55.920
Is that getting you to
where you need to go?

00:51:55.970 --> 00:51:57.270
Rachel Athila: Yeah, absolutely.

00:51:57.460 --> 00:52:01.255
So I think that's the biggest thing,
you know, when you, Is understanding,

00:52:01.255 --> 00:52:04.905
you know, there is a process to it if
whatever industry you find yourself in,

00:52:04.905 --> 00:52:09.305
whether you're trapping forestry, you
know, some of the other remote sectors,

00:52:09.305 --> 00:52:13.635
if you're, there's bear monitors out
there, they, they use shotguns and slugs,

00:52:13.675 --> 00:52:15.705
but, you know, for personal protection.

00:52:16.580 --> 00:52:16.810
Travis Bader: Um, who

00:52:16.810 --> 00:52:18.720
Rachel Athila: knows, uh, the
opportunities might be endless as

00:52:18.720 --> 00:52:20.880
guides, you know, remote ranching.

00:52:21.300 --> 00:52:26.679
Um, the biggest thing that I wish
I would have known, what process

00:52:26.680 --> 00:52:32.030
and what applications go first, how
can a person, what is the formula

00:52:32.730 --> 00:52:32.910
Travis Bader: for

00:52:32.910 --> 00:52:33.360
Rachel Athila: success?

00:52:33.390 --> 00:52:36.469
I mean, obviously, and like you say, it
comes, success can be measured in a very

00:52:36.469 --> 00:52:39.810
different ways and it does come down to
the civil servant that you're working for.

00:52:40.140 --> 00:52:44.469
And it also comes down to how you
answer the questions and that's

00:52:44.469 --> 00:52:47.635
where it leads into, you know, If
you're, if you're getting set up for

00:52:47.635 --> 00:52:49.945
this, do I meet the requirements?

00:52:50.335 --> 00:52:53.645
You know, one, do I have a pistol
I can train with or one that's my

00:52:53.645 --> 00:52:58.935
own, or perhaps I can get access
to, two, what's my next step?

00:52:58.964 --> 00:53:01.555
What application do I need to do first?

00:53:02.225 --> 00:53:07.605
So given that I went and did the first
application for the submission, not

00:53:07.605 --> 00:53:09.345
necessarily the right application first.

00:53:09.345 --> 00:53:13.325
So leaning on you and every
program that you've helped with.

00:53:13.815 --> 00:53:15.465
Travis Bader: Well, why don't
we take a look at it here?

00:53:15.505 --> 00:53:17.925
We've got, we've got two
different forms here.

00:53:18.295 --> 00:53:23.585
And one is a form called a chief
firearms officer of British

00:53:23.585 --> 00:53:27.734
Columbia and Yukon proof of
firearms proficiency for trapping.

00:53:28.075 --> 00:53:33.224
The other one is all the same, but it says
proof of proficiency for the protection

00:53:33.224 --> 00:53:35.494
of life in remote wilderness areas.

00:53:35.724 --> 00:53:39.364
Now, this is British Columbia, but they
have been trying to standardize it.

00:53:39.654 --> 00:53:43.604
And if one province does it, it's
easy for another province to say.

00:53:43.865 --> 00:53:45.495
Well, I'm not reinventing the wheel.

00:53:45.505 --> 00:53:46.195
They've done it.

00:53:46.205 --> 00:53:47.235
They've paved the way.

00:53:47.465 --> 00:53:48.755
Why don't we lean on them?

00:53:49.005 --> 00:53:54.985
And it causes them to have to come up with
Uh, something extra, something above and

00:53:54.985 --> 00:53:56.855
beyond if they're going to issue a denial.

00:53:57.565 --> 00:53:59.785
And we'll talk about denials
probably at the end of this.

00:54:00.105 --> 00:54:02.595
Which one do you want to talk
about first, trapping or working

00:54:02.595 --> 00:54:03.745
in the remote wilderness area?

00:54:03.865 --> 00:54:06.754
Rachel Athila: Oh, you know what I
let's, let's start with trapping because

00:54:06.755 --> 00:54:09.808
I think wilderness appeals to a lot
of people, but trapping is, is a, is

00:54:09.808 --> 00:54:11.780
a There's a kind of a relic to it.

00:54:12.120 --> 00:54:16.260
It's not something that's done or
practiced in a lot of traditional, I mean,

00:54:16.260 --> 00:54:20.809
my own nephews were like, Andy, trapping
died in the 1800s with the fur trade.

00:54:20.810 --> 00:54:22.500
And I was kind of like, well, boys.

00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:23.968
Travis Bader: We're bringing it

00:54:23.968 --> 00:54:24.422
Rachel Athila: back.

00:54:24.422 --> 00:54:25.331
We're bringing

00:54:25.331 --> 00:54:26.239
Travis Bader: it back.

00:54:26.240 --> 00:54:26.650
So.

00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:29.830
These are very similar in approach.

00:54:29.850 --> 00:54:33.560
So we'll go through trapping first and
we'll just put the differences once we

00:54:33.560 --> 00:54:35.930
go into the, uh, protection of life.

00:54:35.930 --> 00:54:36.260
So

00:54:36.309 --> 00:54:37.419
Rachel Athila: should we preface this?

00:54:37.730 --> 00:54:41.050
This is what you should be doing
if you're going after the trapping.

00:54:41.050 --> 00:54:44.659
We've already assessed that you want to be
able to shoot, so you should probably have

00:54:44.659 --> 00:54:48.850
access to a gun that you're going to prove
proficient on the appropriate calibers.

00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:53.205
And the next is, you know, Um,
you've met the requirements cause

00:54:53.205 --> 00:54:55.915
you are, you have your trapper's
license, especially for trapping.

00:54:55.915 --> 00:54:57.705
You have to have your trapper's license.

00:54:58.905 --> 00:55:01.895
With a trapper's license, you have
to be registered to a trap line.

00:55:02.735 --> 00:55:05.065
That helps move it forward.

00:55:05.515 --> 00:55:06.025
Travis Bader: That can help.

00:55:06.025 --> 00:55:06.175
Yes.

00:55:06.275 --> 00:55:06.475
That

00:55:06.504 --> 00:55:06.964
Rachel Athila: can help.

00:55:07.495 --> 00:55:10.614
Also private property, permission
on your own, elsewhere.

00:55:10.645 --> 00:55:13.425
So those are the major things you
have to show that you are actively

00:55:13.505 --> 00:55:18.295
engaged with the opportunity to
participate as a trapper professionally.

00:55:18.605 --> 00:55:18.995
Travis Bader: Yes.

00:55:19.055 --> 00:55:21.145
And I think the key word
in all of that is working.

00:55:21.335 --> 00:55:21.585
Rachel Athila: Yes.

00:55:21.635 --> 00:55:24.145
Travis Bader: Because that's
one that kept coming up when I

00:55:24.145 --> 00:55:25.365
deal with the Firearms Program.

00:55:26.105 --> 00:55:28.675
Cause I said, well, what
about working on your cabin?

00:55:28.925 --> 00:55:30.185
I'm working on a new roof.

00:55:30.185 --> 00:55:31.245
I'm working on the fence.

00:55:31.245 --> 00:55:31.615
Right.

00:55:31.955 --> 00:55:32.255
Which is

00:55:32.255 --> 00:55:34.044
Rachel Athila: all things
to get ready for the season.

00:55:34.045 --> 00:55:36.904
You, as a trapper, it is
a year round activity.

00:55:37.365 --> 00:55:37.705
Travis Bader: Right.

00:55:37.745 --> 00:55:38.989
So as long as that's.

00:55:39.230 --> 00:55:44.370
Applies to a occupation, lawful
profession or occupation.

00:55:44.640 --> 00:55:46.930
That doesn't mean it's
your full time occupation.

00:55:47.430 --> 00:55:51.080
That doesn't even mean it has to
be like half the time occupation.

00:55:51.269 --> 00:55:52.110
Rachel Athila: But it's your occupation.

00:55:52.250 --> 00:55:53.310
Travis Bader: But it's an occupation.

00:55:53.610 --> 00:55:57.745
So that's something that's going
to hopefully at some day, Bring

00:55:57.745 --> 00:56:00.115
money in, maybe not, maybe it
costs you a bunch of money.

00:56:00.155 --> 00:56:01.565
There's a lot of occupations like that.

00:56:01.565 --> 00:56:01.885
Right?

00:56:01.895 --> 00:56:03.085
So there's a few.

00:56:03.215 --> 00:56:03.625
Right.

00:56:04.135 --> 00:56:10.055
Um, it says a proof of proficiency,
and this is going to be a qualification

00:56:10.055 --> 00:56:15.094
course, a shooting course, uh, must
be administered by an individual who

00:56:15.094 --> 00:56:19.914
holds a valid possession and acquisition
license, PAL, for restricted firearms

00:56:19.974 --> 00:56:21.844
at the time of the administration.

00:56:21.924 --> 00:56:27.705
And who has their own, uh, Either a
range safety officer or a member of

00:56:27.705 --> 00:56:33.315
an approved shooting range executive,
or is an instructor for a recognized

00:56:33.325 --> 00:56:35.074
firearms course or discipline.

00:56:35.454 --> 00:56:35.864
Holy crow.

00:56:35.864 --> 00:56:36.535
That's everybody.

00:56:36.545 --> 00:56:37.295
Rachel Athila: That's everybody.

00:56:37.324 --> 00:56:37.594
Travis Bader: Right?

00:56:37.605 --> 00:56:38.215
Absolutely.

00:56:38.255 --> 00:56:39.595
I'm a range officer.

00:56:39.955 --> 00:56:41.245
Rachel Athila: Well, that's
what people don't understand.

00:56:41.255 --> 00:56:42.395
You and I both go to the range.

00:56:42.395 --> 00:56:43.785
One of us has to be the range officer.

00:56:43.795 --> 00:56:44.165
That's right.

00:56:44.535 --> 00:56:44.945
So

00:56:45.025 --> 00:56:46.215
Travis Bader: if they don't
have a designated one.

00:56:46.225 --> 00:56:46.745
Exactly.

00:56:46.775 --> 00:56:47.165
If they don't

00:56:47.165 --> 00:56:48.444
Rachel Athila: have a
designated one on staff.

00:56:48.505 --> 00:56:50.985
Now there is a point in there
where it does say you do have

00:56:50.985 --> 00:56:52.645
to have your restricted license.

00:56:52.655 --> 00:56:53.015
Travis Bader: Right.

00:56:53.204 --> 00:56:56.395
Rachel Athila: So that is a key
component because when you hand in

00:56:56.395 --> 00:57:00.445
your submission, they will look up that
individual and their firearms license,

00:57:00.605 --> 00:57:02.235
and if they don't, they will deny you.

00:57:02.665 --> 00:57:06.185
Travis Bader: One thing I
should point out and who knows.

00:57:06.195 --> 00:57:06.805
Or could deny

00:57:06.805 --> 00:57:08.235
Rachel Athila: you, I should
preface, could deny you.

00:57:08.385 --> 00:57:09.765
Travis Bader: Yeah, I think we should use.

00:57:09.765 --> 00:57:10.355
Allegedly.

00:57:10.495 --> 00:57:11.105
Allegedly.

00:57:11.144 --> 00:57:14.224
We should use that language, could,
because right now what we're reading

00:57:14.224 --> 00:57:20.134
off of is a document that was created
by a firearms officer, probably

00:57:20.304 --> 00:57:24.015
working and trying to put everything
together in a more systemized way.

00:57:24.495 --> 00:57:28.015
This isn't, I have gone contrary
to everything on this document

00:57:28.035 --> 00:57:31.595
at one point or another, because
there are special use cases, uh,

00:57:31.615 --> 00:57:33.175
that, that need to be looked at.

00:57:33.974 --> 00:57:37.485
Just because it says it in
this policy doesn't necessarily

00:57:37.485 --> 00:57:38.715
mean that's it for you.

00:57:38.785 --> 00:57:42.385
If you want to get approved in that
under 24 hour timeframe, like I was

00:57:42.385 --> 00:57:44.725
mentioning before, just go the easy route.

00:57:45.055 --> 00:57:46.345
You got your policy, no problem.

00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:49.680
I mean, just, just do the
work and go through it.

00:57:50.640 --> 00:57:53.050
Rachel Athila: One of the things I
will note though, um, and this is

00:57:53.060 --> 00:57:56.660
on the front page for the actual
authorization to carry questionnaire.

00:57:57.260 --> 00:57:59.739
Um, sorry, do you want to pause?

00:57:59.740 --> 00:58:03.159
So one of the big things too, is
that when you're looking at your

00:58:03.160 --> 00:58:05.330
different, whether you, obviously
you have to be a trapper for the

00:58:05.330 --> 00:58:07.750
trappers ATC or the wilderness carry.

00:58:08.050 --> 00:58:12.235
So what I found with the trapping one,
and this is read right off the The

00:58:12.235 --> 00:58:16.255
application here is that please note
this application is for the licensed

00:58:16.265 --> 00:58:21.344
trapper to request authorization to carry
a restricted fire harm or prohibited

00:58:21.355 --> 00:58:27.519
handgun solely for the purpose of humanely
dispatching trapped animals, solely.

00:58:27.670 --> 00:58:27.890
Travis Bader: Right.

00:58:28.550 --> 00:58:31.440
Rachel Athila: If you wish to request
authorization to carry a restricted

00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:36.559
firearm or prohibited handgun for the
purpose of protecting your life from

00:58:36.560 --> 00:58:40.500
predatory animals while working in remote
wilderness areas, you must request a

00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:43.059
package for the remote wilderness areas.

00:58:43.310 --> 00:58:43.770
Travis Bader: Beautiful.

00:58:43.779 --> 00:58:44.719
I'm glad you brought that up.

00:58:44.730 --> 00:58:45.230
Rachel Athila: So.

00:58:45.675 --> 00:58:49.505
That's one of the things that people have
to be very cognizant of, because when

00:58:49.505 --> 00:58:56.164
you look at that, it's a smaller caliber
as poor, you know, this application.

00:58:56.265 --> 00:58:56.715
Right.

00:58:57.035 --> 00:59:02.414
You can challenge it, but predominantly,
I mean, as a trapper, you want to shoot a

00:59:02.415 --> 00:59:05.165
smaller caliber with your intended catch.

00:59:05.915 --> 00:59:09.585
How many times as a trapper have I
learned your intending catch might

00:59:09.585 --> 00:59:11.570
not always be What you had hoped for.

00:59:11.710 --> 00:59:11.840
Travis Bader: Yeah.

00:59:11.840 --> 00:59:14.100
We were talking about that right
before we accessed the core.

00:59:14.200 --> 00:59:14.460
So anyways,

00:59:14.590 --> 00:59:16.730
Rachel Athila: I just wanted to preface
that because I think there's a lot

00:59:16.730 --> 00:59:20.850
that goes into that, um, because they
are two very different applications.

00:59:20.850 --> 00:59:21.826
Travis Bader: So.

00:59:22.865 --> 00:59:23.575
I like that.

00:59:24.555 --> 00:59:28.785
Uh, under firearms, this is a firearm
used during the proof of proficiency and

00:59:28.785 --> 00:59:32.205
we're going to call it a POP because they
call it a POP and it's easier than me

00:59:32.205 --> 00:59:36.405
saying that over and over again, must be
the same firearm the applicant intends

00:59:36.405 --> 00:59:38.815
to use for dispatching animals and traps.

00:59:38.945 --> 00:59:39.415
Okay.

00:59:39.705 --> 00:59:40.484
That makes sense.

00:59:40.945 --> 00:59:43.380
If you're going to qualify, qualify
in the gun you're going to use.

00:59:43.380 --> 00:59:44.625
It makes a lot of sense.

00:59:45.055 --> 00:59:47.845
Is that always the way that
is done when they issue ATCs?

00:59:48.260 --> 00:59:50.590
Armor car guards don't shoot
their same gun that they carry.

00:59:50.590 --> 00:59:53.010
They might get a different gun every
day if they're a casual worker.

00:59:53.360 --> 00:59:59.520
So, uh, probably the same make and model,
probably, maybe, maybe not necessarily.

01:00:00.010 --> 01:00:02.730
Rachel Athila: And I'm going to give you
a hot tip for all the listeners listening,

01:00:03.560 --> 01:00:09.590
right now, especially here in Canada,
once you prove qualified for your ATC, you

01:00:09.600 --> 01:00:12.039
have the ability to purchase two firearms.

01:00:12.749 --> 01:00:14.830
That was shared with me by a CFO,

01:00:17.070 --> 01:00:17.830
allegedly.

01:00:17.870 --> 01:00:18.600
Travis Bader: Allegedly.

01:00:18.910 --> 01:00:21.949
Rachel Athila: So I, like, I
don't know, but that's like, and

01:00:21.950 --> 01:00:23.960
this is just in conversation,
whether you want to add it or not.

01:00:24.590 --> 01:00:29.400
Um, that was something that was shared
to me by a CFO, because it's Legally,

01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:32.670
if you go through, say you're, say
you have a make and model that you

01:00:32.670 --> 01:00:36.850
are going to be proving proficient on
that, you know, we're at the gun range,

01:00:37.080 --> 01:00:43.400
um, and shooting, that's where there's
such a gray area is that for people

01:00:43.400 --> 01:00:46.339
that don't have pistols right now,
that's the biggest question I've had.

01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:47.729
I don't have a pistol.

01:00:47.930 --> 01:00:52.140
How can I go and do my trapper's
course for my ATC or my wilderness?

01:00:53.380 --> 01:00:57.610
I fit all the requirements except for
I'm still on the waiting list at Cora

01:00:57.610 --> 01:01:00.550
Lanes because the freeze came in and
not enough pistols came to Canada.

01:01:00.680 --> 01:01:00.950
Travis Bader: Right.

01:01:01.349 --> 01:01:06.190
Rachel Athila: So what I'm trying to find
out and what I've, my biggest request is

01:01:06.200 --> 01:01:07.960
how can those people train on a pistol?

01:01:10.589 --> 01:01:16.290
Travis Bader: So Canada can't just deny
you the ability to protect your life.

01:01:21.415 --> 01:01:26.975
Well, let's, let's look at how I, how I
framed that one, allegedly, allegedly.

01:01:26.994 --> 01:01:27.334
Right.

01:01:27.855 --> 01:01:34.364
Um, if you need to protect your life and
there is a legal method for you to do so.

01:01:34.514 --> 01:01:34.874
Mm hmm.

01:01:35.405 --> 01:01:38.715
They can't turn around and make
that whole process illusory, because

01:01:38.925 --> 01:01:42.815
something happens to you and you've
gone through this whole process and

01:01:42.825 --> 01:01:45.955
let's say you're mauled by a bear
and you could have perfect protected

01:01:45.955 --> 01:01:47.964
yourself and defended yourself.

01:01:47.985 --> 01:01:50.914
It's going to come back on that
office and that civil servant.

01:01:50.914 --> 01:01:55.324
So there, there needs to be ways
for them to protect themselves.

01:01:55.515 --> 01:01:58.355
And one of them is businesses
could still get firearms.

01:01:58.660 --> 01:01:59.030
Right.

01:01:59.560 --> 01:02:02.080
Um, individuals who are
working, who need them.

01:02:02.080 --> 01:02:03.940
There's, there's still
provisions for this.

01:02:04.240 --> 01:02:05.520
It's not well thought out.

01:02:05.580 --> 01:02:10.400
It's not the act and the regulations
and the way that the, uh, OACs have been

01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:11.849
written, aren't the best thought out.

01:02:11.850 --> 01:02:15.189
So it leaves people scrambling in
the firearms program to try and

01:02:15.190 --> 01:02:16.380
figure out how to interpret it.

01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:19.790
And sometimes the easiest way is I'll
just stick my head in the sand, right?

01:02:20.220 --> 01:02:25.670
But you push, you make sure those who
can, who should get it, can get it.

01:02:26.950 --> 01:02:29.860
So the a hundred percent,
that's, that's staying in.

01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:30.650
Rachel Athila: Yeah.

01:02:30.929 --> 01:02:33.179
So I, and I think that's something
that people should know is just

01:02:33.179 --> 01:02:36.350
because they don't have a pistol right
now, doesn't mean that you can't.

01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:41.420
Prove proficient, pass the course,
and then pursue an avenue to try

01:02:41.420 --> 01:02:43.480
and acquire the appropriate firearm.

01:02:43.490 --> 01:02:43.840
That's right.

01:02:44.660 --> 01:02:48.939
Travis Bader: Um, an applicant can only
apply for a maximum of two firearms

01:02:48.950 --> 01:02:52.570
to be listed on their authorization
to carry ATC in a period of POP

01:02:52.850 --> 01:02:55.210
must be completed for each firearm.

01:02:55.540 --> 01:02:57.160
So they put that into there.

01:02:57.160 --> 01:03:01.339
They say two guns, really, when
you get your, uh, authorization to

01:03:01.340 --> 01:03:04.619
carry, uh, they could put whatever
they want in the conditions.

01:03:05.419 --> 01:03:05.690
Go on.

01:03:05.690 --> 01:03:05.920
Yeah.

01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:08.869
Rachel Athila: So that's, well, the other
thing too, is that you have, you can

01:03:08.909 --> 01:03:14.060
apply for the two guns, but you are only
lawfully allowed to carry one at a time.

01:03:14.975 --> 01:03:16.045
That is a major thing.

01:03:16.055 --> 01:03:22.295
You can get props, proof of proficiency
for two, but at any one time while

01:03:22.295 --> 01:03:26.494
performing your duty, you are
only holstered with one firearm.

01:03:26.624 --> 01:03:27.005
Travis Bader: That's right.

01:03:27.665 --> 01:03:29.275
That's yes.

01:03:29.665 --> 01:03:34.255
And I always have a difficult time when
they say you can only, You can always,

01:03:34.275 --> 01:03:39.235
cause I've seen so many exceptions to the
rule and when a chief arms officer can

01:03:39.235 --> 01:03:46.425
put in, uh, conditions that tighten it
down, they can also put conditions that'll

01:03:46.964 --> 01:03:50.745
make it wider, make the usage case wider.

01:03:51.285 --> 01:03:54.825
So just cause we see it written here,
doesn't necessarily mean that this

01:03:54.825 --> 01:03:58.195
is the way that's done, but we'll
go through, this is the happy path.

01:03:58.265 --> 01:03:59.135
Rachel Athila: This is the happy path.

01:03:59.405 --> 01:03:59.915
Absolutely.

01:04:00.260 --> 01:04:04.870
Travis Bader: Um, the maximum caliber
accepted for dispatching or trapping

01:04:04.870 --> 01:04:10.470
animals is 22 caliber rimfire, unless
special dispensation is sought from the

01:04:10.580 --> 01:04:12.830
office of the chief firearms officer.

01:04:13.430 --> 01:04:14.030
Rachel Athila: Hello.

01:04:14.040 --> 01:04:14.520
Hello.

01:04:15.300 --> 01:04:19.519
So given the fact that obviously
I acquired these two pistols on

01:04:19.520 --> 01:04:23.060
the nine millimeter and the 10
millimeter, and there's a handgun

01:04:23.060 --> 01:04:25.180
freeze, I couldn't go and purchase.

01:04:25.650 --> 01:04:26.650
A 22 caliber.

01:04:27.420 --> 01:04:30.560
Now there have been instances, there
was a bear attack in Alaska where

01:04:30.560 --> 01:04:33.750
an officer was able to dispatch a
black bear with a nine millimeter.

01:04:34.340 --> 01:04:37.730
It is a lethal killing caliber
for protection of life.

01:04:37.980 --> 01:04:43.420
It is also a small enough caliber that it
can be used to dispatch intended catch.

01:04:43.900 --> 01:04:49.350
So in my special circumstance, I actually
challenged it and I proved proficient.

01:04:49.535 --> 01:04:50.975
With my nine millimeter.

01:04:51.365 --> 01:04:55.125
And when I had my interview, I
just said, look, I understand.

01:04:55.125 --> 01:04:57.954
I'm asking for a caliber
higher than the actual amount.

01:04:58.705 --> 01:05:02.594
Unfortunately, due to the
requirements at the time and the

01:05:02.594 --> 01:05:07.345
freeze that's in, in act, I am unable
to acquire a different caliber.

01:05:07.444 --> 01:05:09.714
This one is proficient X, Y, and Z.

01:05:10.370 --> 01:05:11.850
I would like to move this application.

01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:13.380
Travis Bader: And they
said, not a problem.

01:05:13.450 --> 01:05:13.870
That's right.

01:05:13.990 --> 01:05:17.790
Rachel Athila: Because I was able to
give a cognizant, thoughtful answer.

01:05:19.070 --> 01:05:19.640
Travis Bader: Interesting.

01:05:19.680 --> 01:05:22.920
Recent one, I've just read
about a grizzly bear taken down

01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:24.100
with an eye millimeter as well.

01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:27.149
You know, modern advances
in ammunition and bullet

01:05:27.149 --> 01:05:29.129
construction have come a long way.

01:05:29.500 --> 01:05:29.940
Absolutely.

01:05:29.969 --> 01:05:30.970
And the whole idea.

01:05:31.405 --> 01:05:35.155
Of the ballistics behind
these, uh, rounds.

01:05:35.445 --> 01:05:37.445
This one's a, this one's a bear stopper.

01:05:37.445 --> 01:05:39.754
This one isn't, this one's a that, right?

01:05:39.765 --> 01:05:41.434
Shot placement is obviously important.

01:05:41.434 --> 01:05:41.964
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

01:05:42.144 --> 01:05:43.594
Travis Bader: But we'll talk
about that a little bit more in

01:05:43.604 --> 01:05:47.924
the other one about calibers and
energy and, and the rest, but, um.

01:05:48.485 --> 01:05:51.125
Rachel Athila: Well, and to me, to
be honest, one of the big things that

01:05:51.125 --> 01:05:54.535
I brought home is that, you know, if
I'm only allowed to carry one caliber.

01:05:54.685 --> 01:05:57.815
Where I'm out here working remotely
on a snow machine, and I've got

01:05:57.815 --> 01:06:01.205
my traps and I have my bucket
of my lures and everything else.

01:06:02.055 --> 01:06:05.685
If I have an intended catch and
it's an animal of, you know,

01:06:05.874 --> 01:06:09.165
predatory, there could be wolves,
there could be anything moving in.

01:06:09.214 --> 01:06:13.225
So not only am I putting myself in
danger by checking my intended catch,

01:06:13.235 --> 01:06:17.117
whether it's the great catch or it's
something else, heaven forbid, I don't

01:06:17.117 --> 01:06:19.359
want to be in there with a 22 caliber.

01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:21.660
Travis Bader: No, absolutely not.

01:06:21.740 --> 01:06:21.930
No.

01:06:21.930 --> 01:06:26.890
And you are, you're the prime
candidate for wolf food or bear food.

01:06:27.100 --> 01:06:28.330
You're covered in scent.

01:06:28.489 --> 01:06:31.090
Oh, you've got catch with you.

01:06:31.120 --> 01:06:32.510
Rachel Athila: You want to
see me walk on snowshoes?

01:06:32.540 --> 01:06:34.499
It is not a fast or a
pretty thing, neither.

01:06:34.500 --> 01:06:36.330
I would be, I'm wolf bait, man.

01:06:37.070 --> 01:06:37.790
Travis Bader: A hundred percent.

01:06:38.429 --> 01:06:42.655
Um, Holsters, holsters must be designed
to be worn on a belt around the waist.

01:06:42.655 --> 01:06:46.975
So they're saying no shoulder
holsters, cross drawn, um, actually it

01:06:47.015 --> 01:06:48.195
doesn't say nothing about cross draw.

01:06:49.085 --> 01:06:51.865
Rachel Athila: When you talk to them,
they say no cross draws, even though

01:06:51.894 --> 01:06:55.814
some of the CFOs I've talked to,
it is a proficient way of carrying.

01:06:56.174 --> 01:07:00.605
Um, their biggest thing is that when
you go to draw, there's an opportunity

01:07:00.605 --> 01:07:03.665
where you, your barrel control.

01:07:03.765 --> 01:07:04.005
Right.

01:07:04.005 --> 01:07:05.165
When you're out there with all your

01:07:05.165 --> 01:07:06.175
Travis Bader: other
friends trapping, right?

01:07:06.205 --> 01:07:06.955
Rachel Athila: Yeah, exactly.

01:07:06.975 --> 01:07:07.825
All my other friends.

01:07:07.845 --> 01:07:12.075
Travis Bader: So, um, Yeah, the,
you in the crowded areas with the,

01:07:12.505 --> 01:07:16.915
a lot of the thinking behind this
falls back on police training.

01:07:17.095 --> 01:07:17.275
Yes.

01:07:17.325 --> 01:07:20.205
And police training doesn't apply
here, but it's a framework that

01:07:20.205 --> 01:07:21.795
was put in place a long time ago.

01:07:21.795 --> 01:07:28.375
And the firearms officers may be either
ex police, current police, or exposed to

01:07:28.375 --> 01:07:35.205
police, and there's a proclivity towards
wanting to, uh, be drawn to what you know.

01:07:35.565 --> 01:07:37.085
We do what we've done in the past.

01:07:37.825 --> 01:07:41.625
So it takes a little bit to move
that mindset to something else,

01:07:41.655 --> 01:07:43.644
but it's not an immovable mountain.

01:07:45.895 --> 01:07:47.945
Rachel Athila: The other thing too,
is when they talk about a holster is

01:07:47.945 --> 01:07:49.565
it has to have a level of retention.

01:07:49.825 --> 01:07:50.355
Travis Bader: Right.

01:07:50.685 --> 01:07:53.544
So we're going to just go a little
further and say outside of the

01:07:53.545 --> 01:07:57.574
clothing and have at least one strap
with a snap closure that retains

01:07:57.575 --> 01:07:59.245
a firearm securely in the holster.

01:08:00.035 --> 01:08:01.075
You don't want a bucket holster.

01:08:01.115 --> 01:08:06.125
You don't want something that plops in
and then you're on your snowmobile and

01:08:06.565 --> 01:08:10.225
you need to use your firearm and you
look back and where is the thing, right?

01:08:10.695 --> 01:08:12.675
They, they need some level of retention.

01:08:13.115 --> 01:08:15.805
Rachel Athila: It actually doesn't say
snap retention when you look online.

01:08:16.105 --> 01:08:16.505
Travis Bader: Right.

01:08:16.895 --> 01:08:21.114
Rachel Athila: So that's one thing, cause
I, in, in my holster quest, and this is,

01:08:21.134 --> 01:08:24.934
you know, side note for everyone that's
interested, you have to make sure one

01:08:24.934 --> 01:08:26.454
that, not all holsters are the same.

01:08:26.485 --> 01:08:27.445
That's one thing I've learned.

01:08:27.445 --> 01:08:28.984
It's a very new shopping experience.

01:08:29.254 --> 01:08:32.804
Um, but your level of retention,
basically what they're looking for is

01:08:32.805 --> 01:08:37.825
it has to, the rifle or the firearm
itself can't easily slide in and out.

01:08:37.865 --> 01:08:41.434
You have to forcibly pull and it
has to make sure that the trigger

01:08:41.435 --> 01:08:43.975
guard Is in fact fully encompassing.

01:08:44.705 --> 01:08:46.475
Travis Bader: So it says the
holster must be designed to

01:08:46.475 --> 01:08:47.535
completely cover the trigger.

01:08:48.425 --> 01:08:52.575
A holster and holster retention
device should be used during

01:08:52.575 --> 01:08:53.725
the proof of proficiency.

01:08:53.755 --> 01:08:54.335
Oh, there it is.

01:08:54.555 --> 01:08:56.965
Shoulder and cross draw
holsters are not permitted.

01:08:57.585 --> 01:08:59.625
Well, again, this is a policy.

01:08:59.625 --> 01:09:01.044
This is a piece of paperwork.

01:09:01.045 --> 01:09:01.289
So.

01:09:01.380 --> 01:09:04.400
Uh, there are going to be instances
where maybe you want that.

01:09:04.400 --> 01:09:08.440
For me personally, I don't want a pancake
holster, meaning one that flattens out.

01:09:08.470 --> 01:09:10.050
I want one that's going to hold its shape.

01:09:10.090 --> 01:09:14.399
Kydex does a good job at doing that so
that I can get it back into the holster.

01:09:14.509 --> 01:09:18.870
I mean, um, um, police definitely
want to have something like that so

01:09:18.910 --> 01:09:21.890
they can get it back in quickly the
second the gun's no longer needed.

01:09:22.685 --> 01:09:27.035
In a, uh, wilderness environment, you
can have all the time in the world,

01:09:27.035 --> 01:09:28.795
but with bulky clothing and cold.

01:09:29.355 --> 01:09:32.564
Rachel Athila: You cold, wet,
heat, anything like that.

01:09:32.564 --> 01:09:35.445
You have to think of a wet
leather, you know, you're trying

01:09:35.445 --> 01:09:38.114
to ramrod a firearm in and out.

01:09:38.115 --> 01:09:40.844
I've had scabbards that freeze
up on me with my long rifles.

01:09:40.974 --> 01:09:41.134
Right.

01:09:41.144 --> 01:09:43.925
So that's something to be very
cognizant of, you know, when

01:09:43.925 --> 01:09:45.445
choosing the appropriate holster.

01:09:46.355 --> 01:09:49.875
Travis Bader: So, and then some form of
retention, something to hold it in place.

01:09:50.615 --> 01:09:57.660
Um, What I tend to go for, um, is
something, I'm not a big fan of

01:09:57.660 --> 01:10:02.070
the, uh, the thigh holsters, the,
uh, the drop leg holsters, right?

01:10:02.780 --> 01:10:06.679
I just find hiking around, running, the
thing just starts working its way around.

01:10:06.700 --> 01:10:09.199
Really, the only reason you want
that is so you can get a backpack

01:10:09.200 --> 01:10:13.630
on or a repel harness or something
that will go where your belt line is.

01:10:13.630 --> 01:10:14.254
So what I do.

01:10:14.975 --> 01:10:17.875
do is just find something that'll drop it
an inch, inch and a half down below the

01:10:17.875 --> 01:10:20.115
belt line and hold it on my, on my belt.

01:10:20.125 --> 01:10:23.934
That way I can still get my pack on
and everything else holds it secure.

01:10:24.335 --> 01:10:25.754
I find that to be the best.

01:10:26.545 --> 01:10:33.494
Um, interesting when they talk
about, uh, to, to, to, to, to.

01:10:34.085 --> 01:10:36.775
We're talking about holsters, did
we talk about concealment yet?

01:10:37.335 --> 01:10:38.775
Rachel Athila: Uh, we just touched on it.

01:10:38.785 --> 01:10:41.355
So that's the biggest thing is that
you have to make sure that that

01:10:41.355 --> 01:10:43.345
firearm is exposed the entire time.

01:10:43.345 --> 01:10:46.245
So that's, when you think about
big puffy winter jackets and snow

01:10:46.245 --> 01:10:49.534
pants, I mean, you almost have to
have another belt loop outside.

01:10:50.254 --> 01:10:51.785
Travis Bader: Well,
that's an interesting one.

01:10:51.864 --> 01:10:58.615
So a law firm called me in to opine
on an issue where an individual

01:10:58.625 --> 01:11:02.745
had a trap line and he was charged
with having a concealed firearm.

01:11:03.225 --> 01:11:07.865
So I guess somebody saw him
out there with his handgun.

01:11:08.205 --> 01:11:12.195
Uh, they called the police, called the CO,
CO's called the police, please come up.

01:11:12.205 --> 01:11:13.214
The guy's like, well, you got a gun?

01:11:13.215 --> 01:11:14.375
He's like, oh yeah,
it's right here, right?

01:11:14.875 --> 01:11:17.155
And he's, he's motioning and
they looking through his vehicle.

01:11:17.155 --> 01:11:17.985
They can't find it.

01:11:17.985 --> 01:11:19.555
And I don't see it.

01:11:19.555 --> 01:11:19.964
What are you talking about?

01:11:19.965 --> 01:11:20.525
No, no here.

01:11:20.525 --> 01:11:23.185
Like, I don't want to grab for
it, but it was on his hip and

01:11:23.185 --> 01:11:24.325
he had a jacket over top of it.

01:11:25.140 --> 01:11:25.900
Couldn't be seen.

01:11:26.610 --> 01:11:29.040
And I said, well, what,
what's concealment?

01:11:29.050 --> 01:11:31.750
Like there's the actual act of
concealing something, right?

01:11:31.750 --> 01:11:36.029
Where you can't see it, but
he's in charge of concealment.

01:11:36.589 --> 01:11:38.969
Did he intend to have it concealed?

01:11:39.520 --> 01:11:41.900
Like it was really
light freezing rain out.

01:11:42.329 --> 01:11:48.180
He had a revolver, you got freezing rain,
even, I mean, I'm certified with Smith and

01:11:48.180 --> 01:11:53.740
Wesson since my teenage years to work on
their, uh, firearms and their revolvers.

01:11:53.740 --> 01:11:54.164
Yeah.

01:11:54.525 --> 01:11:57.305
They're robust, they work well,
they're designed to work well, but

01:11:57.305 --> 01:12:00.285
I know areas where if you get a pine
needle in it, they won't work right.

01:12:00.345 --> 01:12:01.075
Just a little bit.

01:12:01.075 --> 01:12:05.325
So, uh, maybe having that covered up as
a smart idea, if he wants a gun to work.

01:12:05.465 --> 01:12:07.815
Anyways, it came down and there's
a whole bunch of case law on it.

01:12:07.825 --> 01:12:11.794
And I got some of it on my, my phone
here, but FALACA was one of the ones

01:12:11.794 --> 01:12:16.725
that comes to mind, uh, intent has to
play a role in concealment if you're

01:12:16.725 --> 01:12:20.520
intending to conceal it, because I was
saying, well, you know, If you stand

01:12:20.520 --> 01:12:23.250
up behind a tree, it's concealed.

01:12:23.410 --> 01:12:25.240
Did he intend to conceal this firearm?

01:12:25.240 --> 01:12:25.470
Right.

01:12:25.690 --> 01:12:29.669
If his jacket falls over top of a clump
of snow falls on, whatever it might be.

01:12:29.669 --> 01:12:33.639
If he's carrying some, all of his
trap game over his shoulder, right?

01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:34.706
Does he have a concealed firearm?

01:12:34.706 --> 01:12:34.879
If I

01:12:34.879 --> 01:12:38.910
Rachel Athila: have it when I'm carrying
my Martin boxes, am I concealing?

01:12:39.350 --> 01:12:41.350
These are all things you
have to be cognizant of.

01:12:41.350 --> 01:12:44.640
Obviously, I mean, unless you're going
to run into CO on the trail, it's

01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:47.550
like the first thing you do anyways,
just say, Hey, this is who I am.

01:12:47.599 --> 01:12:52.660
I just need you to know, I'm I have my
ATC, it has, it's holstered on my hip.

01:12:53.680 --> 01:12:56.270
I look like a gorilla,
like, you know what I mean?

01:12:56.290 --> 01:13:00.930
So, but then again, it comes back to
that communication, like you said.

01:13:01.010 --> 01:13:04.250
So when it comes to
holstering, I mean, obviously.

01:13:04.775 --> 01:13:08.455
If you run into someone, God forbid,
I think he did the right thing, in

01:13:08.455 --> 01:13:12.555
my opinion, let them know it's here,
it's, I have no intention, but my

01:13:12.555 --> 01:13:15.235
jacket might've fallen down and if I,
they mistake me for trying to lift it

01:13:15.235 --> 01:13:18.134
up over my hip, then the next thing
you know, they're going to draw.

01:13:18.185 --> 01:13:18.674
Travis Bader: That's right.

01:13:18.714 --> 01:13:19.595
They don't want to see that.

01:13:19.595 --> 01:13:20.240
Yeah.

01:13:20.240 --> 01:13:21.734
Falaka was an interesting one.

01:13:21.734 --> 01:13:25.355
I think he got on a SkyTrain and a
bus, so he had a 22 all wrapped up and,

01:13:25.355 --> 01:13:28.684
uh, came coming back from the range
and someone was like, Oh, that's cool.

01:13:29.075 --> 01:13:30.075
What do you got there?

01:13:30.075 --> 01:13:32.145
He's like, Oh, I'm going to go
on a shooting spree, he says.

01:13:32.145 --> 01:13:35.845
And the judge says, well, that was
a pretty immature statement to make.

01:13:35.975 --> 01:13:41.885
He's like, uh, but that and about eight
other, I think, case law come in and

01:13:41.885 --> 01:13:45.135
they say there needs to be an intent in
order for concealment to be a charge.

01:13:45.705 --> 01:13:48.715
Uh, and there are times you're going
to want to have that firearm protected.

01:13:48.715 --> 01:13:52.075
I mean, case in point that the
ones that you just mentioned.

01:13:52.965 --> 01:13:55.090
Um, Anything else you
want to say on holsters?

01:13:55.200 --> 01:13:57.750
Rachel Athila: No, I think just the
biggest thing is just, you know, it's one

01:13:57.750 --> 01:14:02.200
of those things that you're going to do
your best in the field and actively I'm

01:14:02.200 --> 01:14:04.040
always checking my holster, you know?

01:14:04.240 --> 01:14:07.529
And I think that's one thing like, cause
it will come up in conversation when you

01:14:07.530 --> 01:14:11.229
go through this process, what happens
if, you know, your jacket falls down?

01:14:11.259 --> 01:14:15.180
Well, I'm going to immediately
try and, you know, make sure that

01:14:15.180 --> 01:14:16.330
I'm wearing the right clothing.

01:14:16.620 --> 01:14:20.250
I'm also going to try not to free stuff
on the trapline, but you know, it's,

01:14:20.390 --> 01:14:23.730
it's trying to communicate all of these
steps that we're talking about because.

01:14:24.215 --> 01:14:27.285
While we're having this conversation
going through this application process,

01:14:27.285 --> 01:14:31.835
if anyone can have a takeaway, it's
just, it's a real human conversation.

01:14:32.255 --> 01:14:32.454
Travis Bader: You

01:14:32.454 --> 01:14:34.005
Rachel Athila: are doing
the best of your intentions.

01:14:34.255 --> 01:14:36.164
You are trying to make
your weapon present.

01:14:36.175 --> 01:14:38.234
You're having the right holster
that fits your body type.

01:14:38.255 --> 01:14:43.105
It fits your activity, branches
happen, carrying things happen.

01:14:43.465 --> 01:14:46.415
Just learn how to communicate, I
think is my biggest thing as we

01:14:46.415 --> 01:14:47.505
move through this application.

01:14:47.615 --> 01:14:47.955
Travis Bader: Yeah.

01:14:48.095 --> 01:14:51.965
Uh, it's, there, there's a
dichotomy between communicating.

01:14:52.495 --> 01:14:55.965
With a rational, normal
individual in a rational way.

01:14:56.285 --> 01:14:56.585
Yes.

01:14:56.715 --> 01:14:59.955
And there's severe protectionism, right?

01:15:00.205 --> 01:15:04.264
Which can find you on the wrong
side of, uh, an interaction because

01:15:04.524 --> 01:15:05.464
you're doing everything right.

01:15:05.465 --> 01:15:07.985
And you're being so protective
and you just come across as like,

01:15:07.995 --> 01:15:09.124
what's this person's problem.

01:15:09.174 --> 01:15:09.494
Right.

01:15:10.155 --> 01:15:13.145
And then the other side says you're
having a normal conversation.

01:15:13.350 --> 01:15:15.820
Like you would with any normal
individual to find out you're not

01:15:15.820 --> 01:15:19.150
talking to a normal individual, that
individual just wants to sewer you.

01:15:19.590 --> 01:15:23.429
So there, there is that difficult
dichotomy that people have to go through.

01:15:23.429 --> 01:15:27.040
So that's where this
normalization process helps.

01:15:28.030 --> 01:15:29.480
Um, it's talks about targets.

01:15:29.480 --> 01:15:31.200
This is steel targets are not permitted.

01:15:32.159 --> 01:15:32.539
Okay.

01:15:32.549 --> 01:15:33.140
Fair enough.

01:15:33.140 --> 01:15:35.330
Um, that's what this document says.

01:15:35.970 --> 01:15:36.510
Assessment.

01:15:36.520 --> 01:15:39.970
The applicant must fire six
rounds from each distance, i.

01:15:39.970 --> 01:15:40.180
e.

01:15:40.180 --> 01:15:41.750
three meters and five meters.

01:15:41.750 --> 01:15:42.279
Rachel Athila: Yep.

01:15:43.060 --> 01:15:43.600
Travis Bader: You're close.

01:15:43.600 --> 01:15:44.660
You're dispatching an animal.

01:15:44.700 --> 01:15:45.180
They just want to read your head.

01:15:45.190 --> 01:15:45.560
You do

01:15:45.590 --> 01:15:48.530
Rachel Athila: have to have it within
a certain, um, diameter as well.

01:15:49.020 --> 01:15:51.590
Um, so that is something
to, to really think.

01:15:51.610 --> 01:15:52.970
So the radius.

01:15:54.225 --> 01:15:58.105
And the special notes, just to follow
up on that, um, the radius draw on

01:15:58.105 --> 01:16:00.015
the paper target has to be two inches.

01:16:00.565 --> 01:16:04.055
So they are looking for competency and
that's why obviously you can't have a

01:16:04.055 --> 01:16:07.705
metal target because when you're standing
three meters away, bullet fragments.

01:16:07.705 --> 01:16:09.524
I mean, obviously on the range,
hopefully you're wearing your proper

01:16:09.524 --> 01:16:12.735
PPE, you're wearing your eyeglasses,
you know, so is a range officer.

01:16:13.065 --> 01:16:16.005
Um, if you're downrange, you're wearing
a vest, you know, you've got your flag.

01:16:16.025 --> 01:16:17.895
I know that's one for our range here, but.

01:16:19.095 --> 01:16:22.555
The biggest thing is obviously
communicating this with the person

01:16:22.555 --> 01:16:25.515
you're testing with, if they've
never tested before, or perhaps,

01:16:25.815 --> 01:16:29.184
you know, just showing your level
of competence and understanding.

01:16:29.975 --> 01:16:32.584
Travis Bader: And having,
uh, steel targets, like, like

01:16:32.585 --> 01:16:33.874
you say, at that distance.

01:16:34.970 --> 01:16:39.450
Fragmentation, ricochets, hopefully not
ricochets, hopefully you're using a hard

01:16:39.460 --> 01:16:43.110
enough steel and all the rest, but all of
that comes, they do have guidelines that

01:16:43.119 --> 01:16:45.460
the firearms program has made for that.

01:16:45.909 --> 01:16:47.699
Easy to, uh, fall on.

01:16:47.800 --> 01:16:50.219
Tintina gun range, they were in the Yukon.

01:16:50.230 --> 01:16:54.660
I was called in by another law firm to
opine on that one with a steel target,

01:16:54.660 --> 01:16:56.270
a ricochet that happened on that one.

01:16:56.270 --> 01:17:00.430
And somebody got hit with the ricochet
damage on the face and everyone

01:17:00.430 --> 01:17:03.815
becomes litigious, but that was,
that was a Uh, a little bit, little

01:17:03.815 --> 01:17:09.945
different story, but talking about
steel, um, scoring, um, here it is.

01:17:11.495 --> 01:17:15.335
Administrator must indicate the number
of hits for each shooting distance.

01:17:15.375 --> 01:17:19.285
A hit is awarded when a round lands on
the designated scoring area of the target.

01:17:19.595 --> 01:17:24.304
The designated scoring area, like Rachel
said, is defined as being a circle with a

01:17:24.305 --> 01:17:26.724
radius of two inches or five centimeters.

01:17:27.385 --> 01:17:29.854
So they want to make sure if
we're dispatching some little

01:17:29.855 --> 01:17:31.855
animal, you can actually do it.

01:17:32.215 --> 01:17:32.905
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

01:17:33.255 --> 01:17:37.935
Travis Bader: Uh, The applicant must
achieve 10 hits for every 12 rounds fired.

01:17:37.935 --> 01:17:40.535
So that's about an 83 percent
success rate that they're

01:17:40.535 --> 01:17:41.705
looking for from the applicant.

01:17:42.244 --> 01:17:44.764
Now, you know, back in the
day, they didn't have this.

01:17:44.795 --> 01:17:46.414
They didn't have this proficiency.

01:17:46.415 --> 01:17:48.005
They had, Oh, you got to use pie plates.

01:17:48.005 --> 01:17:51.265
Or they had, they had all these
different ideas and little by little,

01:17:51.265 --> 01:17:54.775
they're kind of honing it down and
getting it finer, but it's still.

01:17:54.925 --> 01:17:55.415
Policy.

01:17:55.545 --> 01:17:58.045
Rachel Athila: And let me tell you, if you
haven't shot in a while, you get rusty.

01:17:58.495 --> 01:18:00.305
And I think this is something
that a lot of people are like,

01:18:00.305 --> 01:18:01.105
oh yeah, you go and shoot.

01:18:01.105 --> 01:18:01.795
It's like, no.

01:18:02.065 --> 01:18:03.015
Travis Bader: No, it's a perishable skill.

01:18:03.175 --> 01:18:03.835
Exactly.

01:18:03.835 --> 01:18:04.055
It is

01:18:04.055 --> 01:18:05.205
Rachel Athila: a perishable skill.

01:18:05.545 --> 01:18:09.744
And a lot of it too, comes down to your
range behaviors and mannerisms, which

01:18:09.745 --> 01:18:11.644
I'm sure we're about to dive into here.

01:18:11.825 --> 01:18:11.965
Tell me.

01:18:11.965 --> 01:18:16.405
Cause it's not so much just shooting,
you know, you are under a timed amount,

01:18:16.675 --> 01:18:19.145
um, which I believe it is 20 seconds.

01:18:19.705 --> 01:18:20.295
Travis Bader: For this one?

01:18:20.765 --> 01:18:22.775
Uh, did they give you a
time to mount on this one?

01:18:23.155 --> 01:18:24.075
Rachel Athila: I believe so.

01:18:24.125 --> 01:18:25.335
Travis Bader: Uh, doesn't
have it in their paperwork.

01:18:25.365 --> 01:18:25.695
Okay.

01:18:25.955 --> 01:18:29.214
Rachel Athila: Um, I believe I'd seen
something, I don't want to misquote

01:18:29.215 --> 01:18:32.695
myself, but it was, you know, when
you, when you approach the target,

01:18:32.834 --> 01:18:34.254
um, obviously you're holstered.

01:18:34.664 --> 01:18:38.144
And that was one thing it's like
hands in the air from a casual

01:18:38.144 --> 01:18:42.505
position, unholstered, showing
that you have good trigger control

01:18:42.525 --> 01:18:43.965
or good, sorry, pistol control.

01:18:44.195 --> 01:18:45.855
And obviously you're proving proficient.

01:18:46.145 --> 01:18:47.985
Once you're done, you're,
you're Holster again.

01:18:48.345 --> 01:18:52.775
So between each set, it's very
important that you show that you have

01:18:53.005 --> 01:18:56.834
barrel control, that you have, you
know, good holster technique and good

01:18:56.835 --> 01:18:58.904
present presentation technique as well.

01:18:59.125 --> 01:18:59.415
So.

01:18:59.585 --> 01:19:01.225
Travis Bader: Muscle control,
trigger, finger discipline.

01:19:01.235 --> 01:19:02.975
That's the thing that the
instructors will keep saying.

01:19:03.544 --> 01:19:06.924
You don't have your finger on the
trigger until your barrel and your

01:19:06.984 --> 01:19:08.784
gun is pointed at the target, right?

01:19:08.984 --> 01:19:12.424
Doesn't mean like I don't have my finger
on the trigger until I'm ready here.

01:19:12.424 --> 01:19:13.134
I can shoot.

01:19:13.154 --> 01:19:13.404
Right.

01:19:13.664 --> 01:19:15.934
Cause you can shoot at
any point all the way up.

01:19:16.314 --> 01:19:16.694
Rachel Athila: Yes.

01:19:17.530 --> 01:19:19.050
Travis Bader: Depending on the
individual, but it's got to be.

01:19:19.090 --> 01:19:19.550
Exactly,

01:19:19.930 --> 01:19:20.670
Rachel Athila: exactly.

01:19:20.860 --> 01:19:21.550
Travis Bader: Um.

01:19:22.420 --> 01:19:23.830
Rachel Athila: You do
get three attempts at it.

01:19:23.990 --> 01:19:24.790
Travis Bader: Yeah, which is crazy.

01:19:24.790 --> 01:19:25.140
Isn't it?

01:19:25.240 --> 01:19:26.190
Rachel Athila: It is pretty crazy.

01:19:26.250 --> 01:19:27.660
It's very expensive on ammunition.

01:19:27.699 --> 01:19:29.060
Travis Bader: But here's, so
here's an interesting one.

01:19:29.060 --> 01:19:30.130
They don't cover it in here.

01:19:30.600 --> 01:19:35.610
Uh, so you said 20 seconds, which by
the way, it is, uh, a lot of time.

01:19:36.280 --> 01:19:39.720
I maybe like, this is the form.

01:19:39.750 --> 01:19:40.840
I think this is the newest one.

01:19:40.840 --> 01:19:43.575
Cause this is the one that they, that
they Uh, they provided you, I've seen

01:19:43.575 --> 01:19:45.115
different iterations of this one.

01:19:45.615 --> 01:19:48.795
Uh, if somebody has an older iteration
that has different distances and

01:19:48.795 --> 01:19:52.285
different timings or whatever it
might be, again, they just, it's one

01:19:52.285 --> 01:19:55.295
of these, stick your finger in your
mouth, which way is the wind going?

01:19:55.665 --> 01:19:56.684
Here's, here's where you go.

01:19:57.195 --> 01:20:00.124
They need somebody to
say you are proficient.

01:20:00.375 --> 01:20:03.925
So if you do something silly with a
firearm, they come back and say, well,

01:20:03.925 --> 01:20:05.775
that's somebody said, it wasn't me.

01:20:05.785 --> 01:20:06.785
It was that somebody.

01:20:06.785 --> 01:20:07.075
Right.

01:20:07.075 --> 01:20:07.794
Right.

01:20:07.925 --> 01:20:10.845
Um, I think that's the, the crux of this.

01:20:11.445 --> 01:20:15.225
Um, some people talk about,
well, can you practice?

01:20:15.245 --> 01:20:18.335
Can you have a, uh, do you have
to shoot it cold or can you shoot

01:20:18.335 --> 01:20:20.244
it, can you warm up ahead of time?

01:20:20.704 --> 01:20:23.725
It doesn't say anything about whether
you shoot a cold or not and they're

01:20:23.725 --> 01:20:26.555
really, there's only one cold round
and that's the first one you shoot.

01:20:26.624 --> 01:20:28.354
And after that, you're
dialing everything in.

01:20:28.355 --> 01:20:29.154
Rachel Athila: And

01:20:29.154 --> 01:20:31.415
Travis Bader: if you get three
kicks in the can, maybe that's two

01:20:31.415 --> 01:20:33.555
practice rounds in one test, right?

01:20:33.825 --> 01:20:34.695
Rachel Athila: Yes, exactly.

01:20:34.695 --> 01:20:37.644
And I think that's one thing is that at
the end of the day, they're basically

01:20:37.645 --> 01:20:43.290
trying to, You're just trying to prove
that you have good manners, safe manners,

01:20:43.520 --> 01:20:47.000
when it comes to handling a firearm,
obviously, especially with a pistol,

01:20:47.300 --> 01:20:51.049
um, and the biggest thing I found too
is that when I did my test and, and

01:20:51.050 --> 01:20:53.870
this is something that I learned from
the SIG Academy is always communicate,

01:20:53.980 --> 01:20:55.830
you know, when I'm shooting with
someone, it's like, okay, you know what?

01:20:55.830 --> 01:20:56.580
I'm going to holster.

01:20:56.870 --> 01:21:00.160
Um, when I'm holstered guys, I'm going to
let you know what I'm going to go live.

01:21:00.510 --> 01:21:01.040
Um, yeah.

01:21:01.230 --> 01:21:04.760
Just that way I'm being cognizant of the
people that I'm sharing the range with.

01:21:05.020 --> 01:21:05.140
Yeah.

01:21:05.220 --> 01:21:05.450
Right.

01:21:05.730 --> 01:21:07.950
And I think that's a good
practice to really install.

01:21:08.150 --> 01:21:08.640
Travis Bader: I agree.

01:21:08.700 --> 01:21:09.080
I like that.

01:21:09.080 --> 01:21:14.180
It says, um, if the applicant fails
to achieve the minimum pass mark,

01:21:14.180 --> 01:21:18.410
the applicant must be retested
for the failed shooting distance.

01:21:18.560 --> 01:21:21.370
So that doesn't say you've got to
redo the entire course of fire.

01:21:21.370 --> 01:21:24.450
You just redo that one
part that they failed on.

01:21:24.710 --> 01:21:25.320
Absolutely.

01:21:25.420 --> 01:21:29.410
An applicant can only attempt a maximum
of two retests for each shooting distance.

01:21:31.515 --> 01:21:35.005
If an applicant fails to achieve the
minimum pass mark after three attempts

01:21:35.535 --> 01:21:39.425
for either distance, the applicant
can not attempt to do the proof of

01:21:39.425 --> 01:21:44.534
proficiency assessment until after
a minimum of 30 days have passed.

01:21:45.855 --> 01:21:47.054
Again, this is all policy.

01:21:47.055 --> 01:21:48.804
If you're like, man, I need it tomorrow.

01:21:48.804 --> 01:21:52.065
I need it whenever exceptions can be made.

01:21:52.485 --> 01:21:56.320
Um, Preferably, you're going to
the range, you're practicing,

01:21:56.500 --> 01:21:57.590
you're getting proper training.

01:21:57.770 --> 01:21:57.940
Right?

01:21:57.940 --> 01:22:01.500
This isn't for every Joe Blow to come out
and say, Hey, I want to, I want to carry.

01:22:01.500 --> 01:22:02.700
This is for people who need it.

01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:04.900
And the people who need it will
put the effort in and work.

01:22:05.970 --> 01:22:11.720
Um, The administrator must submit
all POP assessment results, pass

01:22:11.730 --> 01:22:15.130
or fail to the chief firearms
officer of their jurisdiction.

01:22:15.659 --> 01:22:19.200
So when you go in, they get recorded.

01:22:19.750 --> 01:22:23.559
And this one that says it can be mailed or
faxed to, and that's in Green Timbers Way

01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:26.870
in, uh, in Surrey, the firearms office.

01:22:27.110 --> 01:22:29.810
I like to call it the new one, but
they've been there for like 15 years or

01:22:29.810 --> 01:22:36.570
so now, but, um, and, I turned the page
on here and then it's got the, uh, the

01:22:36.570 --> 01:22:40.150
application form where the applicant
information, their surname, given

01:22:40.150 --> 01:22:41.720
name, their PAL number gets in here.

01:22:42.329 --> 01:22:46.000
They put their firearm certificate
and their FIN, their firearm

01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:49.939
identification number, the make model
caliber type of ammunition used.

01:22:50.549 --> 01:22:54.770
You should be using similar ammunition
to what you're using out in the field.

01:22:54.980 --> 01:22:55.260
Absolutely.

01:22:55.765 --> 01:22:59.605
Uh, used to be, people would say,
firearms officers would say, you have

01:22:59.605 --> 01:23:02.435
to use the exact same ammunition that
you're going to be using in the field.

01:23:02.845 --> 01:23:04.454
And in theory, that makes sense.

01:23:04.785 --> 01:23:06.845
But in theory, communism
also works, right?

01:23:07.365 --> 01:23:13.255
Um, the reality is I don't know
of any police agency that will

01:23:13.255 --> 01:23:17.225
go out and, uh, qualify on the
same ammunition that they carry.

01:23:17.915 --> 01:23:23.675
They'll use frangible ammunition and a
non toxic ammo on if it's VPD, that's

01:23:23.675 --> 01:23:24.865
what they're qualifying with, right?

01:23:25.515 --> 01:23:27.545
They'll use full metal jackets.

01:23:28.184 --> 01:23:31.175
They're not using the more
expensive hollow points, they're

01:23:31.175 --> 01:23:32.905
not using the hotter rounds.

01:23:33.835 --> 01:23:39.685
So being able to use a similar
ammunition, and I think they've gone

01:23:39.685 --> 01:23:42.105
and changed it now, but you still
might find firearms officers say

01:23:42.105 --> 01:23:43.635
it's got to be the exact same ammo.

01:23:43.815 --> 01:23:45.735
It doesn't have to be the exact same ammo.

01:23:45.765 --> 01:23:50.925
It's should be similar, should be the
same type of firearm, type of firearm.

01:23:52.495 --> 01:23:58.920
Um, And it goes to, uh, it's this type
of ammunition used and then a little pass

01:23:58.920 --> 01:24:01.560
fail, they prepared the firearm safely.

01:24:01.570 --> 01:24:02.900
That's what you're saying earlier, right?

01:24:02.920 --> 01:24:05.480
Talking your way through,
I'm getting myself safe.

01:24:05.800 --> 01:24:08.590
If I got the muzzle swinging
everywhere, that's a fail, right?

01:24:08.840 --> 01:24:10.720
Rachel Athila: You want to show
up to the range with it, obviously

01:24:10.720 --> 01:24:13.100
locked in an opaque case and you
want to have your trigger lock.

01:24:13.100 --> 01:24:15.540
And I think it's really good
husbandry, especially if you're

01:24:15.540 --> 01:24:17.070
testing with someone you don't know.

01:24:17.505 --> 01:24:17.875
Travis Bader: You know,

01:24:17.875 --> 01:24:20.985
Rachel Athila: like, or anyone,
it just, to me, it gives them a

01:24:20.985 --> 01:24:22.415
safeguard of, look, I'm showing up.

01:24:22.445 --> 01:24:25.675
It's like showing up to a test with a
chiseled pen and a good piece of paper.

01:24:25.714 --> 01:24:26.825
You're ready for the test.

01:24:26.995 --> 01:24:27.645
You've studied.

01:24:28.325 --> 01:24:32.465
Travis Bader: Uh, firearm holstered
safely and prepared for pop, pass or fail.

01:24:32.865 --> 01:24:36.044
Holstering and unholstering
a firearm is an art form.

01:24:36.094 --> 01:24:37.125
It takes some practice.

01:24:37.135 --> 01:24:37.884
There's some skill to it.

01:24:37.884 --> 01:24:41.955
There's YouTube videos, or even like
yourself, Seiko professional instruction.

01:24:43.105 --> 01:24:43.795
Drawing.

01:24:44.330 --> 01:24:46.150
From the holster and firing smoothly.

01:24:46.150 --> 01:24:47.020
There's that skill.

01:24:47.780 --> 01:24:50.190
Ask about the target type, whether
it's silhouette, bullseye or

01:24:50.220 --> 01:24:51.580
other, they can put their other in.

01:24:51.630 --> 01:24:54.920
And then it gives you for a second
and third attempts from three meters

01:24:54.920 --> 01:24:57.760
and five meters, uh, pass or fail.

01:24:58.690 --> 01:25:03.790
Um, does it all over again for a
secondary, uh, firearm for number two.

01:25:04.610 --> 01:25:09.095
Um, And then it asks for the
administrator information, their first

01:25:09.095 --> 01:25:13.055
name, last name, where they could
be contacted up, their phone numbers

01:25:13.055 --> 01:25:17.725
or pal, um, where the location was
that they did the, uh, the course.

01:25:18.025 --> 01:25:20.954
And there's an area for any
additional comments if necessary.

01:25:21.144 --> 01:25:21.294
Rachel Athila: Yep.

01:25:21.754 --> 01:25:22.054
Travis Bader: Okay.

01:25:22.885 --> 01:25:25.785
Obviously it's an offense under
section 106 of the firearms act to

01:25:25.795 --> 01:25:29.655
knowingly make false or misleading
statements, either orally or in writing.

01:25:29.655 --> 01:25:33.505
So you put a date and sign that, and
then the CFO will take a look and

01:25:33.505 --> 01:25:35.024
they'll say pass or fail on there.

01:25:35.510 --> 01:25:36.630
Rachel Athila: Yep, absolutely.

01:25:37.030 --> 01:25:37.750
Travis Bader: Anything I missed on there?

01:25:38.010 --> 01:25:41.680
Rachel Athila: No, and to be honest, like
when you go through, um, the authorization

01:25:41.680 --> 01:25:44.780
questionnaire, Really use common sense.

01:25:44.870 --> 01:25:47.660
I mean, obviously, we just covered,
you know, the shooting positions.

01:25:47.710 --> 01:25:49.330
You're doing it from a standing as well.

01:25:49.560 --> 01:25:51.600
Um, for the trapping, it's all standing.

01:25:52.089 --> 01:25:56.329
Um, but when they're looking at the
answers that you're going to provide,

01:25:56.640 --> 01:26:01.465
one of the things that I really learned
was, You want to give detail that gives

01:26:01.465 --> 01:26:04.705
a reassurance to someone, because you
don't know who the civil servant is, who's

01:26:04.705 --> 01:26:05.985
going to be taking on your paperwork.

01:26:06.345 --> 01:26:12.294
So there's a way of answering your
questions that cover your basis,

01:26:12.755 --> 01:26:14.195
but you also are not limiting.

01:26:14.364 --> 01:26:16.545
I mean, I'm a trapper up in
Northern British Columbia.

01:26:16.694 --> 01:26:19.685
And one of the questions was,
where will you be trapping?

01:26:20.065 --> 01:26:23.255
And, and that's something that I think
when I bounced ideas off of you, he

01:26:23.255 --> 01:26:26.525
said, well, you might, he questioned
me and Travis said, are you going to

01:26:26.525 --> 01:26:27.745
trap there for the rest of your life?

01:26:27.910 --> 01:26:31.820
You know, you could go trapping down
in Southern BC if you get permission.

01:26:32.510 --> 01:26:36.510
So learning how to frame the answers of,
I will be trapping in accordance with the

01:26:36.510 --> 01:26:38.529
law in the province of British Columbia.

01:26:38.920 --> 01:26:42.969
This is what I have now, but you're
also leaving it open for opportunity.

01:26:43.230 --> 01:26:45.559
Travis Bader: This is probably
one of the areas where you and

01:26:45.560 --> 01:26:48.320
I, and most people, we spend the
most amount of time going through

01:26:48.320 --> 01:26:50.470
because there's a delicate balance.

01:26:50.470 --> 01:26:53.640
And part of that is knowing the
individual that you're dealing with.

01:26:54.200 --> 01:26:57.500
What they're looking for, what their
objectives are, where they're coming from.

01:26:57.500 --> 01:27:00.860
Cause I've had a firearms officer
come up and say, look at, I'm just,

01:27:01.060 --> 01:27:05.159
you know, if there's any reason
that you come up with, that you say

01:27:06.270 --> 01:27:09.520
that would preclude you from owning
this, we'll jump on that right away.

01:27:10.029 --> 01:27:11.500
So you have to be very careful.

01:27:11.560 --> 01:27:17.110
This isn't an fair and frank sort of
disclosure of information process.

01:27:17.110 --> 01:27:20.690
This isn't an open, um, uh, dialogue.

01:27:22.900 --> 01:27:26.610
it's framed in such a way where
you're already going to be on your

01:27:26.620 --> 01:27:31.130
back foot saying, well, if I say this
wrong, you're just going to get it.

01:27:31.130 --> 01:27:35.440
And so that, this is where I find most
people have the, um, the trepidation.

01:27:35.510 --> 01:27:39.250
And this is consequently where most
people will have themselves denied.

01:27:39.389 --> 01:27:40.629
Rachel Athila: Yes, absolutely.

01:27:40.639 --> 01:27:42.720
And in a lot of the people
that have reached out and said,

01:27:42.720 --> 01:27:44.070
you know, I've done the test.

01:27:44.090 --> 01:27:45.270
I shot very well.

01:27:45.520 --> 01:27:46.860
I have good trigger control.

01:27:46.860 --> 01:27:51.575
I had good holstering control, you know,
I don't understand why I was denied.

01:27:52.095 --> 01:27:54.805
And I think a lot of it, like you
said, comes down to the questions

01:27:54.805 --> 01:27:56.025
and how they answered them.

01:27:56.195 --> 01:27:56.605
Travis Bader: Right.

01:27:56.725 --> 01:28:00.015
Rachel Athila: You know, and it's up
to the discretion of that civil servant

01:28:00.025 --> 01:28:01.744
to have a followup conversation.

01:28:02.494 --> 01:28:07.234
Travis Bader: I would advise
people to give, to answer just the

01:28:07.234 --> 01:28:09.255
question and don't expand on it.

01:28:09.845 --> 01:28:13.845
If they want expansion on that question,
you can always expand afterwards.

01:28:14.070 --> 01:28:18.540
But answer that question as clearly
and concisely as possible, knowing

01:28:18.540 --> 01:28:22.030
full well that maybe you just got
somebody who's having a bad day.

01:28:22.170 --> 01:28:25.980
Maybe you got somebody who's
saying, oh, I'm going to look for

01:28:25.980 --> 01:28:27.389
reasons not to issue this one.

01:28:27.739 --> 01:28:32.850
In which case, the more information
you provide, The more reasons the

01:28:32.880 --> 01:28:34.740
issuing body will have to deny it.

01:28:35.040 --> 01:28:40.239
So don't lie, obviously, number one,
but it doesn't mean you have to go on

01:28:40.240 --> 01:28:44.940
and tell a whole life story as you go
through as well, answer it as quickly

01:28:44.959 --> 01:28:46.860
and easily, concisely as possible.

01:28:47.560 --> 01:28:50.649
And a follow up, uh,
conversation might happen.

01:28:50.889 --> 01:28:51.539
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

01:28:51.599 --> 01:28:54.309
Travis Bader: In my case, I remember
on one of them going through, uh,

01:28:54.790 --> 01:29:01.170
Um, and I was getting a wilderness
carry for free mining and I do that

01:29:01.340 --> 01:29:02.590
all throughout British Columbia.

01:29:03.740 --> 01:29:06.820
And the firearms officer came
running out one time when I

01:29:06.820 --> 01:29:08.100
was picking up stuff for work.

01:29:08.100 --> 01:29:11.460
And he's like, Oh, I just wanted to talk
to you about a couple of things and just

01:29:11.460 --> 01:29:13.410
casually throwing a few questions out.

01:29:13.450 --> 01:29:18.860
And I realized really quickly that I was
being interviewed informally for this,

01:29:18.860 --> 01:29:22.150
as opposed to through the formal process
that I should have been, and I talked to

01:29:22.160 --> 01:29:25.920
the guy and I said, hold on a second, are
you trying to find reasons to not issue?

01:29:25.920 --> 01:29:27.430
He's like, Oh, well, you know, I'm not.

01:29:28.195 --> 01:29:29.975
It's not that I'm trying to find
a way, we just don't want to

01:29:29.985 --> 01:29:31.765
issue to anybody and everybody.

01:29:31.765 --> 01:29:32.895
And it was his words.

01:29:32.895 --> 01:29:35.275
We don't want everybody
running around with handguns on

01:29:35.275 --> 01:29:36.705
their hip thinking it's cool.

01:29:37.174 --> 01:29:38.625
I said, this is a lifesaving thing.

01:29:38.655 --> 01:29:39.865
This is to do with life.

01:29:40.384 --> 01:29:42.435
Like that should be your only concern.

01:29:43.344 --> 01:29:44.665
Do they make the requirement?

01:29:45.535 --> 01:29:46.444
Yes or no.

01:29:46.675 --> 01:29:48.805
If so go, but I get it.

01:29:48.995 --> 01:29:51.575
And he says, well, you know, we had a
lot of people who just apply and they

01:29:51.575 --> 01:29:52.845
don't really meet the requirements.

01:29:53.375 --> 01:29:53.855
Again.

01:29:54.205 --> 01:29:55.335
That shouldn't take trickery.

01:29:55.375 --> 01:29:58.995
That shouldn't take running out to
have, what are you carrying right now?

01:29:59.005 --> 01:30:00.405
Like when you go out, what do you use?

01:30:00.445 --> 01:30:02.405
I physically can't take
anything right now.

01:30:02.435 --> 01:30:02.715
Right.

01:30:02.755 --> 01:30:03.515
I need the handgun.

01:30:03.774 --> 01:30:05.455
My hands are loaded with everything else.

01:30:05.455 --> 01:30:07.744
It's not like I'm going to have
a rifle or shotgun with me.

01:30:07.945 --> 01:30:11.505
There's like, you know, going out
there and trapping, Holy crow, you're,

01:30:12.025 --> 01:30:17.725
you're like, I don't understand how
anybody could have a rifle or a shotgun

01:30:18.475 --> 01:30:21.715
and still carry all of this equipment
with all this stuff bundled up.

01:30:22.960 --> 01:30:27.460
So questions, uh, please provide your
valid trapping license number for

01:30:27.460 --> 01:30:28.900
a management license or equivalent.

01:30:28.910 --> 01:30:30.420
So that's an easy question to answer.

01:30:31.010 --> 01:30:34.429
Please provide your valid trap line
number or registered for a management

01:30:34.440 --> 01:30:39.289
area number or equivalent and
corresponding geographical areas.

01:30:39.980 --> 01:30:42.875
So for that one, How did you answer it?

01:30:43.305 --> 01:30:46.785
Rachel Athila: So I put down the
trap line that I was leasing.

01:30:47.135 --> 01:30:54.434
Um, and the corresponding geographical
areas, I actually, I ended up having

01:30:54.435 --> 01:30:55.834
a follow up conversation with,

01:30:56.215 --> 01:30:56.595
Travis Bader: um,

01:30:56.605 --> 01:30:58.954
Rachel Athila: because I had said,
you know, I'll be trapping in British

01:30:58.954 --> 01:31:01.319
Columbia and that was too big.

01:31:02.380 --> 01:31:06.380
But in a follow up conversation that
I had with a CFO, I said, this is the

01:31:06.380 --> 01:31:08.380
registered trap line that I am leasing.

01:31:08.770 --> 01:31:13.010
You know, I also have permission and
that's what trapping has is you have

01:31:13.010 --> 01:31:16.629
the permission, written permission
from the areas so that you are actually

01:31:16.629 --> 01:31:21.179
legally lawfully allowed to carry because
you're still in the act of trapping.

01:31:21.869 --> 01:31:24.050
That's that's one of the gray areas.

01:31:24.440 --> 01:31:30.380
Is you have to say within British Columbia
where you have authorization to trap,

01:31:30.410 --> 01:31:30.850
Travis Bader: right?

01:31:31.580 --> 01:31:32.620
Rachel Athila: You have to put that.

01:31:32.650 --> 01:31:35.580
Otherwise, if you just put down
trap line, such and such and such

01:31:36.210 --> 01:31:41.069
in the special comment side of your
permit, it will say only authorized

01:31:41.080 --> 01:31:42.670
to carry on such and such place.

01:31:42.750 --> 01:31:43.060
Travis Bader: Right.

01:31:43.150 --> 01:31:44.940
And this is all a process of.

01:31:45.125 --> 01:31:50.205
Limiting yourself and why would you
limit yourself when your license allows

01:31:50.205 --> 01:31:53.855
you to work throughout remote wilderness
areas, on private property, throughout

01:31:53.855 --> 01:31:58.535
BC, on other traplines, assisting other
people, like your license allows for this.

01:31:58.865 --> 01:32:00.285
Why would you limit yourself?

01:32:00.535 --> 01:32:04.254
Anybody listening to say, well,
I've only got this one right now, so

01:32:04.255 --> 01:32:05.484
that's the only area I can have it.

01:32:05.485 --> 01:32:08.635
And, and that's what people should have
in the back of their head as they're

01:32:09.035 --> 01:32:10.055
answering all of these questions.

01:32:10.205 --> 01:32:10.865
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

01:32:11.425 --> 01:32:14.954
Travis Bader: Uh, explain why you feel you
need to use a handgun, a restricted rifle

01:32:14.954 --> 01:32:17.005
to dispatch trapped animals rather than

01:32:17.164 --> 01:32:17.684
Rachel Athila: any

01:32:17.785 --> 01:32:19.355
Travis Bader: other tool available.

01:32:20.795 --> 01:32:22.674
Rachel Athila: And the basic thing
is, is it comes down to it's a

01:32:22.674 --> 01:32:27.275
lawful and it's an compact tool
and it's effective for dispatching.

01:32:27.285 --> 01:32:27.295
A

01:32:27.325 --> 01:32:27.895
Travis Bader: hundred percent.

01:32:27.895 --> 01:32:28.495
It's effective.

01:32:30.695 --> 01:32:31.105
Rachel Athila: Plus.

01:32:31.145 --> 01:32:32.325
The big thing is it's compact.

01:32:32.395 --> 01:32:33.615
Travis Bader: It's the
easiest one to carry.

01:32:33.645 --> 01:32:34.225
Rachel Athila: Exactly.

01:32:34.235 --> 01:32:34.925
It's on your holster.

01:32:34.944 --> 01:32:35.455
It's on your hip.

01:32:35.715 --> 01:32:35.985
Travis Bader: Right.

01:32:36.005 --> 01:32:38.134
And if you have bycatch
that you weren't expecting.

01:32:38.695 --> 01:32:42.615
Just because you're catching one thing
doesn't necessarily necessarily mean

01:32:42.615 --> 01:32:43.735
that's the thing you're going to get.

01:32:44.365 --> 01:32:46.505
Rachel Athila: Well, and most time when
you're walking in on a set, I mean,

01:32:46.505 --> 01:32:50.155
you're carrying tools, hoping that
you caught your intended catch because

01:32:50.155 --> 01:32:51.495
they're not right off the snow machine.

01:32:51.925 --> 01:32:54.915
So, I mean, you're going in and
your hands are already encumbered.

01:32:55.555 --> 01:32:55.575
Travis Bader: Um,

01:32:55.595 --> 01:32:57.525
Rachel Athila: you know, or
you're having to crawl into a

01:32:57.525 --> 01:33:00.135
place to set, to, to check a set.

01:33:00.145 --> 01:33:05.395
So, you know, the biggest thing is that
you, it is on your person without having

01:33:05.395 --> 01:33:07.085
to physically hold it in your hands.

01:33:07.235 --> 01:33:07.545
Travis Bader: Right.

01:33:08.415 --> 01:33:13.194
Uh, please provide the dates you plan to
be harvesting the trap lines listed above.

01:33:13.265 --> 01:33:13.794
You said.

01:33:14.475 --> 01:33:17.035
Rachel Athila: I honestly said I
will be harvesting in accordance

01:33:17.035 --> 01:33:21.655
with the law, um, and seasons
within the trapping seasons, um, and

01:33:21.655 --> 01:33:23.355
subject to based on the regulations.

01:33:24.005 --> 01:33:27.535
Um, and the options for trapping
outside the season for nuisance animals.

01:33:27.635 --> 01:33:27.905
Yes.

01:33:27.955 --> 01:33:31.405
So the act of trapping
is a year round activity.

01:33:31.475 --> 01:33:34.185
As a licensed trapper,
I can be contracted.

01:33:34.784 --> 01:33:36.665
Travis Bader: And I think
mine was a little more vague.

01:33:36.665 --> 01:33:39.915
I think I said, uh, The
dates every day, right?

01:33:39.965 --> 01:33:42.575
And I just let, so better answer.

01:33:42.625 --> 01:33:47.875
Yes, but I, uh, when systemizing
things a long time ago, I

01:33:47.905 --> 01:33:49.645
took things real, real small.

01:33:50.085 --> 01:33:53.514
Uh, and then that requires followup
conversations and we'll talk about

01:33:53.514 --> 01:33:55.204
what that would look like afterwards.

01:33:55.204 --> 01:33:59.970
But, uh, Why would I find myself
illegal if I say, Oh, I'm going to

01:33:59.970 --> 01:34:01.270
be working Monday through Friday.

01:34:01.270 --> 01:34:04.889
So all of a sudden I got to check
a trapline on a Saturday, but I'm

01:34:04.889 --> 01:34:06.250
in contravention of the law now.

01:34:06.400 --> 01:34:07.780
Why would I do that to myself?

01:34:08.349 --> 01:34:09.010
Uh, Well, and you're

01:34:09.020 --> 01:34:10.730
Rachel Athila: setting
yourself up for failure, right?

01:34:10.740 --> 01:34:12.930
You're already going
through such a process.

01:34:13.170 --> 01:34:16.080
You need to set yourself
up for legal success.

01:34:16.930 --> 01:34:17.510
That's what it is.

01:34:18.310 --> 01:34:21.310
Travis Bader: Explain how you would
safely and securely transport your

01:34:21.310 --> 01:34:23.300
firearm to the location on your trapline.

01:34:23.660 --> 01:34:26.590
I think you've made it sound
nicer than what I said.

01:34:26.990 --> 01:34:28.569
Rachel Athila: You go ahead
with your answer, Travis.

01:34:28.770 --> 01:34:30.520
Travis Bader: Mine was in
accordance with the laws.

01:34:31.250 --> 01:34:33.700
Rachel Athila: So I did it in
accordance with the law with restricted

01:34:33.700 --> 01:34:35.960
firearm on my followup interview.

01:34:36.389 --> 01:34:39.260
They want to know, and this,
and they did come through.

01:34:39.310 --> 01:34:41.650
They said, you know, there are a bunch
of questions that we have to go through.

01:34:42.600 --> 01:34:45.060
I, you say, you know, in
accordance with the law, I need

01:34:45.060 --> 01:34:46.510
to know that you understand it.

01:34:46.670 --> 01:34:49.490
So the CFO I worked with, he
just basically said, please

01:34:49.490 --> 01:34:50.560
explain to me what that is.

01:34:50.640 --> 01:34:53.839
And so when you're going to and from,
you have to have it in a locked opaque

01:34:53.839 --> 01:34:57.030
case, but you also have to have the
trigger guard locked and you know, your

01:34:57.030 --> 01:34:58.780
ammunition stored in a separate spot.

01:34:59.079 --> 01:35:02.115
Um, and the biggest thing too
is, you know, You know, people

01:35:02.115 --> 01:35:03.595
are traveling great distances.

01:35:03.935 --> 01:35:08.565
So, with your ATC, you know, you can
travel, it, it grants you permission

01:35:08.565 --> 01:35:10.245
to travel to and from your trapline.

01:35:10.915 --> 01:35:13.275
Obviously, I'm in a special
scenario because my trapline

01:35:13.285 --> 01:35:14.435
is not far from my house.

01:35:15.014 --> 01:35:18.814
So, you know, I, I still have all my
paperwork that I travel with, but I

01:35:18.814 --> 01:35:21.945
keep it in my opaque case, so that
it's there, it's handy, and I have

01:35:21.945 --> 01:35:25.765
everything going to and from, whether
it's a 10 minute drive or a 2 hour drive.

01:35:26.640 --> 01:35:29.840
Travis Bader: And essentially you
just said, in accordance with the

01:35:29.840 --> 01:35:32.870
laws, but you articulated that
you know what those laws are.

01:35:32.920 --> 01:35:33.460
Rachel Athila: Exactly.

01:35:33.470 --> 01:35:35.239
And they will ask you that.

01:35:35.470 --> 01:35:39.080
So you cannot, you can say in accordance
with the law, but you better know the

01:35:39.080 --> 01:35:40.830
answer when you do a follow up phone call.

01:35:40.890 --> 01:35:41.529
A hundred percent.

01:35:41.590 --> 01:35:43.689
Travis Bader: And I think anyone
with a firearm should know that one.

01:35:43.689 --> 01:35:45.100
They, they should, but I tell you,

01:35:45.150 --> 01:35:46.900
Rachel Athila: you know, what was
funny is that that's where they

01:35:46.900 --> 01:35:49.710
say a lot of people fail is when
they do the follow up phone call.

01:35:50.060 --> 01:35:55.390
If people do a small answer, they're
But then they can't come back and

01:35:55.400 --> 01:35:59.320
actually articulate what the law is,
obviously it's an automatic fail.

01:35:59.500 --> 01:36:00.930
Travis Bader: But my
question would be why?

01:36:01.060 --> 01:36:03.029
Why would that make it an automatic fail?

01:36:03.120 --> 01:36:05.049
Rachel Athila: If people don't
understand where the law is and they're

01:36:05.050 --> 01:36:08.709
applying for a transportation, I can
see from an officer's standpoint, if

01:36:08.720 --> 01:36:11.340
you say, if I say, Travis, you know,
do you know what it means to travel?

01:36:11.340 --> 01:36:11.969
And you say, yep.

01:36:11.979 --> 01:36:13.070
And it's like, okay, well then what is it?

01:36:13.705 --> 01:36:18.525
And you balk and go, well, locked, of
course, you know, as from the, you know,

01:36:18.525 --> 01:36:22.865
when you look at the devil's advocate,
it's like, okay, so is this person going

01:36:22.865 --> 01:36:27.014
to travel with an unlocked firearm to and
from the range and put my job at risk?

01:36:27.285 --> 01:36:31.375
So from their standpoint, you know, I
think it is good to put vague, lawful

01:36:31.375 --> 01:36:37.145
answers, but by God, you better be ready
to answer them with a good articulate.

01:36:38.195 --> 01:36:41.025
Travis Bader: And see, but you're
attacking, you're looking that from a

01:36:41.025 --> 01:36:49.720
very logical point of The way that I
look at it is, okay, as a regulatory

01:36:49.720 --> 01:36:53.420
body, if the person doesn't know how
to transport it, why don't we just put

01:36:53.420 --> 01:36:56.099
that, you know, on their conditions,
making sure that we know, let's

01:36:56.099 --> 01:36:57.435
have a conversation, you Perfect.

01:36:57.655 --> 01:36:58.505
How do you do it?

01:36:58.785 --> 01:37:01.625
Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll just
have it, um, unloaded.

01:37:01.795 --> 01:37:05.805
No, no, you need to have
it in an opaque locked box.

01:37:05.805 --> 01:37:07.995
Box cannot be easily broken into.

01:37:08.115 --> 01:37:09.555
It's got to be separate
from the ammunition.

01:37:09.824 --> 01:37:12.124
It's going to have to have a secure
locking device on that firearm.

01:37:12.485 --> 01:37:13.784
Do you understand that?

01:37:13.864 --> 01:37:14.304
Yes.

01:37:14.395 --> 01:37:18.295
If you don't transport it like
that, there's issues, right?

01:37:18.295 --> 01:37:18.515
Yeah.

01:37:18.915 --> 01:37:23.285
And, uh, as opposed to,
Oh, you got that one wrong.

01:37:23.295 --> 01:37:23.804
You're gone.

01:37:23.805 --> 01:37:26.565
I think that's where a lot of people's
trepidation comes in because they feel.

01:37:26.860 --> 01:37:28.420
And sometimes it's like
this, I'll be honest.

01:37:28.430 --> 01:37:30.580
Sometimes there is a
gotcha game process to it.

01:37:30.930 --> 01:37:33.960
Not always, sometimes he gets switched
on firearms offices and they're like,

01:37:34.980 --> 01:37:36.090
We want to make sure you're safe.

01:37:36.090 --> 01:37:36.950
We want to make sure you're good.

01:37:36.950 --> 01:37:37.140
Right.

01:37:37.140 --> 01:37:39.130
Sometimes you get people who
don't quite understand, and

01:37:39.180 --> 01:37:40.230
maybe they're working under that.

01:37:40.590 --> 01:37:40.670
Rachel Athila: You've

01:37:40.950 --> 01:37:41.990
Travis Bader: got to deny everybody.

01:37:42.200 --> 01:37:42.940
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

01:37:43.049 --> 01:37:46.240
Travis Bader: Um, same thing goes for
how would you safely carry the firearm

01:37:47.360 --> 01:37:47.699
Rachel Athila: while you're

01:37:47.699 --> 01:37:48.650
Travis Bader: working on your trapline?

01:37:48.840 --> 01:37:49.060
Rachel Athila: Yeah.

01:37:49.150 --> 01:37:50.530
You're wearing it on your safety.

01:37:50.630 --> 01:37:53.080
Oh, you're wearing it, sorry, on
an approved holster that meets

01:37:53.080 --> 01:37:54.280
the requirements with retention.

01:37:54.390 --> 01:37:54.600
Travis Bader: Yeah.

01:37:54.640 --> 01:37:55.780
And that's what my answer is.

01:37:55.830 --> 01:37:56.040
Rachel Athila: Yeah.

01:37:56.580 --> 01:37:57.110
Travis Bader: Um,

01:37:57.735 --> 01:38:00.495
Rachel Athila: They will try and catch you
up and say, oh, so is that a cross draw?

01:38:00.735 --> 01:38:01.875
It's like, no, it's on your hip.

01:38:02.505 --> 01:38:05.865
So, you know, it depends
on who your interviewer is.

01:38:05.865 --> 01:38:08.194
Travis Bader: There's nothing in the law
that says you can't use a cross draw and

01:38:08.265 --> 01:38:09.845
you can have a cross draw on your hip too.

01:38:10.124 --> 01:38:12.345
Rachel Athila: I think it just
said that in the part of the form.

01:38:12.655 --> 01:38:13.695
Travis Bader: Form, not law.

01:38:14.065 --> 01:38:14.635
Rachel Athila: Oh, there

01:38:14.635 --> 01:38:14.675
Travis Bader: you go.

01:38:14.725 --> 01:38:15.015
Right?

01:38:15.475 --> 01:38:17.005
Not legislation, not regulation.

01:38:17.035 --> 01:38:17.525
There you go.

01:38:17.525 --> 01:38:18.845
But definitely did say it in the form.

01:38:18.865 --> 01:38:19.425
Allegedly.

01:38:19.605 --> 01:38:19.915
Allegedly.

01:38:21.705 --> 01:38:24.794
Explain how you could safely and
securely store the handgun while

01:38:24.795 --> 01:38:26.494
not carrying it on your trapline.

01:38:27.144 --> 01:38:27.554
Rachel Athila: All right.

01:38:27.554 --> 01:38:31.374
So I actually went with an answer that
I think covered all bases, which was my

01:38:31.374 --> 01:38:34.955
handgun was stored within the outline
requirements as set out by the federal law

01:38:34.955 --> 01:38:36.495
for restricted firearms here in Canada.

01:38:37.065 --> 01:38:37.415
Travis Bader: Beautiful.

01:38:38.870 --> 01:38:40.280
And did he say, Oh, what are those?

01:38:40.630 --> 01:38:41.260
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

01:38:41.300 --> 01:38:41.640
And then you

01:38:41.640 --> 01:38:42.040
Travis Bader: explained.

01:38:42.100 --> 01:38:43.070
Rachel Athila: And then
I explained to him.

01:38:43.320 --> 01:38:43.720
So.

01:38:43.950 --> 01:38:44.250
Travis Bader: Okay.

01:38:44.250 --> 01:38:46.700
And then there's an offense if
you give any bad information.

01:38:46.700 --> 01:38:48.430
So that, that is that one.

01:38:48.570 --> 01:38:48.790
Rachel Athila: Yes.

01:38:48.800 --> 01:38:51.290
Travis Bader: So there's that written
questionnaire and then there's the

01:38:51.290 --> 01:38:54.720
followup kind of verbal questionnaire
that may or may not happen.

01:38:55.130 --> 01:38:56.400
And it's my experience.

01:38:56.419 --> 01:38:57.280
It always happens.

01:38:57.485 --> 01:38:58.055
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

01:38:58.095 --> 01:39:01.625
Travis Bader: Uh, way years
ago, didn't now always happens.

01:39:01.655 --> 01:39:06.155
And I remember a, um, firearms
officer, Travis, I want to, I want to

01:39:06.164 --> 01:39:07.605
have a verbal conversation with you.

01:39:08.095 --> 01:39:08.255
All right.

01:39:08.255 --> 01:39:09.355
And when can you come in?

01:39:09.355 --> 01:39:10.204
We've got to go through this.

01:39:10.204 --> 01:39:13.545
I'm like, well, I'm trying so
hard to document everything.

01:39:13.894 --> 01:39:15.365
Just give me your questions in an email.

01:39:15.384 --> 01:39:16.055
I'll respond to it.

01:39:16.064 --> 01:39:17.215
Then I've got this paper trail.

01:39:17.355 --> 01:39:18.814
And I told him that I said, look at.

01:39:18.955 --> 01:39:21.395
Each and every time I apply, it's
going to be like a new application.

01:39:21.405 --> 01:39:22.215
Yeah, I get that.

01:39:22.215 --> 01:39:25.755
But we've got a framework we can work
with and I'm working with other people.

01:39:25.755 --> 01:39:29.095
If they meet that framework,
then, then good to go.

01:39:29.095 --> 01:39:29.475
Right?

01:39:29.994 --> 01:39:34.255
So, no, no, we got, we got to do
this verbally and okay, my back

01:39:34.255 --> 01:39:37.035
of my hair stand up a little bit
when, when those are my responses.

01:39:38.015 --> 01:39:41.355
And I said, okay, um, he says,
well, it's a dynamic thing.

01:39:41.365 --> 01:39:44.525
You might say something and then I
have to say this and it might grow.

01:39:44.535 --> 01:39:46.355
I have no idea what my questions could be.

01:39:46.895 --> 01:39:47.635
So gotcha.

01:39:47.705 --> 01:39:47.975
Okay.

01:39:47.975 --> 01:39:48.505
No problem.

01:39:49.465 --> 01:39:51.685
So finally I said, I got
you on the phone now.

01:39:52.525 --> 01:39:53.405
What are your questions?

01:39:54.645 --> 01:39:55.735
Oh, okay.

01:39:55.974 --> 01:39:58.235
Well, I guess question number
one, he goes through and it's

01:39:58.235 --> 01:39:59.725
like, okay, sounds perfect.

01:40:00.615 --> 01:40:01.355
Just writing it down.

01:40:01.355 --> 01:40:02.745
Just letting you know, I'm
writing down this question.

01:40:02.895 --> 01:40:04.635
Um, let me think on that.

01:40:04.635 --> 01:40:05.305
I'll get back to you.

01:40:05.374 --> 01:40:06.145
I'll send you an email.

01:40:06.145 --> 01:40:06.495
Yes.

01:40:06.495 --> 01:40:06.615
Okay.

01:40:06.960 --> 01:40:08.780
Uh, okay, what's question two?

01:40:08.990 --> 01:40:11.350
And we did this for each and
every one of his questions.

01:40:11.350 --> 01:40:15.770
I wrote them down word for word, and then
I responded and I put it in the email.

01:40:16.220 --> 01:40:18.040
I said, I want to template this.

01:40:18.050 --> 01:40:19.350
Like you can't make this.

01:40:19.510 --> 01:40:19.849
Yeah.

01:40:19.849 --> 01:40:20.869
I'm in a pain in the ass.

01:40:20.870 --> 01:40:21.280
I get it.

01:40:21.280 --> 01:40:26.670
Um, but it, it templated that process
and it's allowed a lot of other

01:40:26.670 --> 01:40:30.070
people that who are eligible to, to
be able to go through this process

01:40:30.450 --> 01:40:31.710
in a more streamlined fashion.

01:40:36.350 --> 01:40:38.740
Rachel Athila: No, I think, no, and I
think that's one of the things that,

01:40:39.010 --> 01:40:42.130
you know, at the end of the day, when
you're going through this process, I

01:40:42.130 --> 01:40:46.879
mean, there's no smoke and mirrors,
you are either going to get approved

01:40:46.879 --> 01:40:50.690
or you're not, and so much of it will
come down to obviously in preparedness.

01:40:50.729 --> 01:40:55.720
So wrapping up this ATC for the, for
the trapping side, I mean, you've got

01:40:55.720 --> 01:40:58.250
your 5491E or whatever the form was.

01:40:59.160 --> 01:41:00.250
How would you submit that?

01:41:00.250 --> 01:41:04.490
Would you submit that application first
as well, or would you submit a package?

01:41:04.700 --> 01:41:06.080
Cause I think that's what people
are going to want to know.

01:41:06.090 --> 01:41:06.450
Okay.

01:41:06.450 --> 01:41:07.630
So I've done my studying.

01:41:07.640 --> 01:41:08.680
I've gone to the range.

01:41:09.030 --> 01:41:10.740
I either do or I don't have a pistol.

01:41:11.230 --> 01:41:15.010
So the best advice for someone moving
forward is there's three different

01:41:15.010 --> 01:41:16.679
applications that we have to send in.

01:41:16.710 --> 01:41:18.430
One's the POP, proof of proficiency.

01:41:19.010 --> 01:41:22.400
One is the questionnaire
and one is the 5491.

01:41:22.400 --> 01:41:25.910
I'm going to misquote the number on it,
but that's, it'll be in the show notes.

01:41:26.285 --> 01:41:27.195
Travis Bader: Yeah, 5491E.

01:41:27.305 --> 01:41:28.545
Rachel Athila: 5491E.

01:41:28.755 --> 01:41:31.005
So there's those three different
parts that you have to send in.

01:41:31.005 --> 01:41:34.275
Would you, would you encourage
people to send them all in at once?

01:41:34.745 --> 01:41:35.134
Travis Bader: I would.

01:41:35.285 --> 01:41:37.545
Uh, issue is getting those questions.

01:41:37.664 --> 01:41:41.164
Uh, the 5491E is available online.

01:41:41.164 --> 01:41:43.924
You can grab that, download
it, put it through, but the

01:41:43.925 --> 01:41:46.805
questionnaire sheet, usually what
happens is they do this first.

01:41:47.005 --> 01:41:47.395
Rachel Athila: Yes.

01:41:48.135 --> 01:41:50.285
Travis Bader: Then they get the whole
questionnaire sheet and everything else.

01:41:50.475 --> 01:41:51.555
Rachel Athila: That's
how it happened for me.

01:41:51.795 --> 01:41:54.115
Travis Bader: For everyone, because
they don't make this publicly available.

01:41:54.125 --> 01:41:56.184
All those questions that we
just said, now you know them.

01:41:56.350 --> 01:41:56.590
Right.

01:41:56.590 --> 01:41:56.760
Yeah.

01:41:56.960 --> 01:42:01.350
Uh, those distances you have to
shoot the requirements, uh, those

01:42:01.350 --> 01:42:02.780
I think, and we can look for it.

01:42:02.790 --> 01:42:06.680
I think, uh, some versions
of the, uh, the form had it.

01:42:07.065 --> 01:42:07.505
This one doesn't.

01:42:07.505 --> 01:42:09.055
I was looking now, the new one doesn't.

01:42:09.265 --> 01:42:11.105
Rachel Athila: Yeah, and that
was the biggest thing is that

01:42:11.135 --> 01:42:12.735
until I actually got the form.

01:42:12.735 --> 01:42:16.065
I had done some research, so I had a
pretty rough idea of what distances

01:42:16.065 --> 01:42:19.404
I had to shoot and what proficiency I
had to, you know, obviously maintain.

01:42:21.085 --> 01:42:25.854
That was the hardest part is that
until you submit your 5491E, you

01:42:25.855 --> 01:42:26.905
don't get your questionnaire.

01:42:27.275 --> 01:42:27.305
Right.

01:42:27.315 --> 01:42:28.625
And you don't get the distances.

01:42:28.625 --> 01:42:29.954
So

01:42:30.735 --> 01:42:31.355
Travis Bader: in

01:42:31.355 --> 01:42:32.915
Rachel Athila: essence,
I didn't do it wrong.

01:42:33.315 --> 01:42:35.715
I did, I did send him a 5491E.

01:42:36.185 --> 01:42:37.825
I finally got a response back.

01:42:37.825 --> 01:42:39.615
They said, Oh, you haven't
done your application.

01:42:39.615 --> 01:42:41.744
It's like, where's the application?

01:42:41.745 --> 01:42:44.774
I would love to attain this so that
way I can move forward on the process.

01:42:44.814 --> 01:42:45.064
It just

01:42:45.064 --> 01:42:49.105
Travis Bader: to be crystal clear, this
is the happy path because they know this.

01:42:49.215 --> 01:42:49.505
Rachel Athila: Yeah.

01:42:49.810 --> 01:42:51.950
Travis Bader: There are other proof
of proficiencies that you can do.

01:42:51.950 --> 01:42:54.070
This isn't the only proof
of proficiency, right?

01:42:54.070 --> 01:42:58.289
And there's a whole different, there's a
lot of different schools of thoughts on a

01:42:58.289 --> 01:43:00.149
proof of proficiency and how that works.

01:43:00.160 --> 01:43:02.209
Training at the speed
of life is a neat book.

01:43:02.209 --> 01:43:06.100
If people want to learn about RBS
reality based training systems,

01:43:06.229 --> 01:43:08.810
RBT, whatever that is, uh, some.

01:43:09.040 --> 01:43:13.150
Talking about police training and
the argument in some states for a

01:43:13.150 --> 01:43:18.000
one round qualification course and
knowing the, um, uh, being able to

01:43:18.000 --> 01:43:21.359
articulate the laws and the know
how and all this is more important.

01:43:21.359 --> 01:43:25.329
And like, there's, there's a lot of
different thoughts just because you can

01:43:25.330 --> 01:43:28.050
shoot a qualification course doesn't mean
you're going to be good with your gun.

01:43:28.380 --> 01:43:28.560
Yes.

01:43:28.560 --> 01:43:28.909
Right.

01:43:28.910 --> 01:43:31.180
And just cause you do poorly on a
qualification course doesn't mean

01:43:31.180 --> 01:43:33.690
you'll do poorly with a firearm
in a situation you might need to.

01:43:35.005 --> 01:43:39.145
It's a really nice tool for agencies
to be able to pass or deny, to show

01:43:39.145 --> 01:43:40.655
that they've done their due diligence.

01:43:40.695 --> 01:43:43.175
And so this is the happy path route.

01:43:43.695 --> 01:43:44.585
It's not the only route.

01:43:45.005 --> 01:43:48.585
Uh, it just depends on how much a
person wants to be obstinate and fight.

01:43:48.705 --> 01:43:49.745
Rachel Athila: Yep, absolutely.

01:43:50.185 --> 01:43:52.564
Travis Bader: Uh, protection of
life in remote wilderness areas.

01:43:52.575 --> 01:43:54.925
So this is a one where I think more people

01:43:55.255 --> 01:43:55.445
Rachel Athila: will

01:43:55.445 --> 01:43:58.935
Travis Bader: be doing again, same
information about the administration.

01:43:58.945 --> 01:43:59.945
It's someone who's got a PAL.

01:44:01.275 --> 01:44:05.365
Four restricted firearms at the time
of the administration, who is a range

01:44:05.365 --> 01:44:08.435
safety officer or a member of the
approved shooting range executive,

01:44:08.465 --> 01:44:11.824
or is an instructor for a recognized
firearms course or discipline.

01:44:12.055 --> 01:44:12.755
Like, what is that?

01:44:13.114 --> 01:44:15.595
What's a recognized firearms
course or discipline, right?

01:44:15.635 --> 01:44:18.605
By what country and what, I think
it's wide open, like you said

01:44:18.605 --> 01:44:20.455
before, everyone's a range officer.

01:44:20.605 --> 01:44:20.835
Yep.

01:44:21.335 --> 01:44:27.160
Um, Firearm used during the POP must
be the same firearm the applicant

01:44:27.160 --> 01:44:31.010
intends to use for wilderness carry,
same comments from before applicant

01:44:31.010 --> 01:44:35.949
can only apply for a maximum of two,
uh, to be listed on their ATC and a

01:44:35.949 --> 01:44:38.110
POP must be completed for each firearm.

01:44:38.579 --> 01:44:41.609
And the last one there was the
minimum caliber accepted for

01:44:41.610 --> 01:44:44.840
wilderness protection is 357 Magnum.

01:44:45.950 --> 01:44:48.140
Again, that's what they
write on this policy form.

01:44:48.860 --> 01:44:52.310
Uh, I've seen them issued for 40 cal.

01:44:52.940 --> 01:44:55.940
I've seen them issued for nine millimeter.

01:44:56.510 --> 01:44:59.589
Um, and.

01:45:00.605 --> 01:45:03.365
When you're looking at this whole
thing, it's for the protection of

01:45:03.365 --> 01:45:04.675
life and remote wilderness areas.

01:45:04.675 --> 01:45:07.615
And you read through the act, let
me just pull up the exact word.

01:45:07.615 --> 01:45:09.494
Cause I think it's an
important piece of the puzzle.

01:45:10.295 --> 01:45:15.955
Um, because I was asked before, what
predatory animals do you expect to

01:45:15.955 --> 01:45:22.905
see in your area when looking for
a, uh, uh, lower caliber than 357?

01:45:22.975 --> 01:45:27.215
Cause everyone said, Oh, it has to be 357
or higher, says who, based on what, and

01:45:27.215 --> 01:45:30.155
what's bullet penetration looking like,
and what kind of ammunition are we using?

01:45:30.155 --> 01:45:30.285
And

01:45:32.650 --> 01:45:38.470
The act says, uh, wild animals, protection
of the life of that individual or

01:45:38.470 --> 01:45:40.640
other individuals from wild animals.

01:45:40.890 --> 01:45:44.490
It doesn't say predatory
animals and wild animal.

01:45:44.600 --> 01:45:46.220
I mean, there's a lot of
different things that you might

01:45:46.229 --> 01:45:47.490
have to protect yourself from.

01:45:47.720 --> 01:45:48.590
Rachel Athila: Oh, absolutely.

01:45:48.990 --> 01:45:52.139
I don't know if anyone's ever come
between a cow and calf moose or

01:45:52.139 --> 01:45:56.155
had them, you know, Have had a foul
catch and you know, you, obviously

01:45:56.155 --> 01:45:58.245
you do your best to not catch them.

01:45:58.345 --> 01:45:58.805
Travis Bader: Yes.

01:45:58.895 --> 01:46:02.204
Rachel Athila: But accidents
happen and there's a reason

01:46:02.204 --> 01:46:03.114
they chase off grizzly bears.

01:46:03.115 --> 01:46:04.995
Let me tell you, you do not
want to get in a boxing match.

01:46:05.615 --> 01:46:06.005
Travis Bader: No.

01:46:06.354 --> 01:46:09.545
Uh, obviously the heavier rounds.

01:46:10.695 --> 01:46:13.875
The faster the projectile goes,
the bigger the projectile is.

01:46:13.875 --> 01:46:15.825
You start stacking things in your favor.

01:46:15.825 --> 01:46:17.775
If you have a poor shot placement, right?

01:46:17.805 --> 01:46:18.295
Things are going to The

01:46:18.295 --> 01:46:22.115
Rachel Athila: inertia, the bullet inertia
and how it's actually impacting and Right.

01:46:22.125 --> 01:46:23.035
There's a lot to it.

01:46:23.155 --> 01:46:25.925
Travis Bader: So things will die if you
interrupt their central nervous system.

01:46:25.935 --> 01:46:27.244
That's your incent off switch.

01:46:27.574 --> 01:46:31.644
Or if you interrupt their
cardiovascular system, stopping

01:46:31.705 --> 01:46:33.104
the oxygen going to the body.

01:46:33.305 --> 01:46:35.845
Brain introducing hypovolemic
shock through massive

01:46:35.845 --> 01:46:37.405
cardiopulmonary decompression.

01:46:37.725 --> 01:46:37.985
Right.

01:46:37.985 --> 01:46:41.164
And there's, there's two ways
that we do the first one, central

01:46:41.164 --> 01:46:45.284
nervous system is going to be
brain spinal cord shot placement.

01:46:45.335 --> 01:46:45.655
Right.

01:46:46.244 --> 01:46:50.635
Number two could be lots of holes in it.

01:46:50.675 --> 01:46:51.155
Right.

01:46:51.505 --> 01:46:52.085
So.

01:46:52.155 --> 01:46:52.964
Rachel Athila: Very platonic term.

01:46:52.964 --> 01:46:53.154
Yes.

01:46:53.505 --> 01:46:54.004
Lots of holes.

01:46:54.005 --> 01:46:55.484
Travis Bader: Lots, lots of holes, right.

01:46:55.484 --> 01:46:57.544
Causing it to bleed out more and more.

01:46:57.544 --> 01:46:59.364
Hopefully those holes are in good places.

01:46:59.764 --> 01:47:02.134
Lungs, heart, vital areas, all the rest.

01:47:02.620 --> 01:47:06.450
But when we start looking at, uh,
the firearm being issued, it used

01:47:06.450 --> 01:47:10.659
to be, you have to use a revolver
and it has to be 357 at least.

01:47:10.659 --> 01:47:16.620
And I said, there's a case for
a handgun, a, uh, semi automatic

01:47:16.730 --> 01:47:19.570
because more rounds means more holes.

01:47:20.080 --> 01:47:23.480
Um, maybe you're in a high stress
situation and you're trying to

01:47:23.480 --> 01:47:25.230
dump as many as you can quickly.

01:47:25.760 --> 01:47:29.210
Um, there's a case to be made
for lighter recoiling because

01:47:29.220 --> 01:47:31.820
shock placement is, is massive.

01:47:32.340 --> 01:47:35.329
So this is not etched in concrete.

01:47:35.329 --> 01:47:36.279
It's not etched in stone.

01:47:36.430 --> 01:47:36.910
Rachel Athila: That's correct.

01:47:37.255 --> 01:47:38.175
Travis Bader: But it's a happy path.

01:47:39.375 --> 01:47:42.555
Ammo type of ammo used during the
pop has to have similar muzzle

01:47:42.555 --> 01:47:45.925
velocity, caliber, and bullet weight
as the ammunition they intend to use.

01:47:46.355 --> 01:47:46.984
Fair enough.

01:47:47.554 --> 01:47:49.685
At least they're not saying
the same ammunition anymore.

01:47:50.384 --> 01:47:54.415
Uh, holsters, all the same sort
of information covers a trigger,

01:47:54.464 --> 01:47:59.355
uh, has a whole holster retention
device must be used during the pop.

01:47:59.585 --> 01:48:00.595
What they mean by that is.

01:48:00.885 --> 01:48:04.955
When you put the firearm back in the
holster, you apply the retention device.

01:48:04.985 --> 01:48:06.605
You can't just leave it open.

01:48:06.605 --> 01:48:10.035
I've seen so many people want to, Oh, I
can get it out faster if there's a time.

01:48:10.035 --> 01:48:10.454
Or if they

01:48:10.455 --> 01:48:11.534
Rachel Athila: just
have it sitting on top.

01:48:11.535 --> 01:48:11.755
Yeah.

01:48:11.755 --> 01:48:12.225
And yeah.

01:48:12.455 --> 01:48:12.665
So you

01:48:12.715 --> 01:48:14.044
Travis Bader: gotta, you
gotta actually use it.

01:48:14.485 --> 01:48:17.135
Shoulder and cross draw holsters
are not permitted, it says.

01:48:17.785 --> 01:48:20.085
Again, steel targets are not permitted.

01:48:20.990 --> 01:48:25.550
Uh, the assessment now we're looking
at, uh, applicant must shoot in both

01:48:25.560 --> 01:48:30.060
standing and kneeling positions for
each distance five, 10, and 15 meters.

01:48:30.319 --> 01:48:32.420
And now we've got a timeframe on it.

01:48:32.520 --> 01:48:32.860
Rachel Athila: Yes.

01:48:33.060 --> 01:48:35.510
Travis Bader: For each firing
position at each distance, the

01:48:35.519 --> 01:48:40.895
applicant must discharge six
rounds to the Unsupported within 20

01:48:40.905 --> 01:48:43.245
seconds in one continuous motion.

01:48:44.515 --> 01:48:46.765
Six rounds in 20 seconds
is a world of time.

01:48:46.915 --> 01:48:50.285
So for people who are concerned
quite often, it's like,

01:48:50.605 --> 01:48:51.505
what are they for five, six?

01:48:52.184 --> 01:48:54.804
And then you're looking at the
watch as it's counting down, like

01:48:54.804 --> 01:48:58.905
you count down 20 seconds, start
learning how to use that time and

01:48:58.945 --> 01:49:00.865
make sure you're good sight picture.

01:49:01.910 --> 01:49:03.520
Proper trigger press.

01:49:03.780 --> 01:49:04.730
Rachel Athila: Nice squeeze.

01:49:04.770 --> 01:49:05.550
Yeah, exactly.

01:49:05.550 --> 01:49:06.150
Follow through.

01:49:06.200 --> 01:49:07.130
World of a difference.

01:49:07.210 --> 01:49:07.930
Absolutely.

01:49:08.400 --> 01:49:09.020
Good grip.

01:49:09.300 --> 01:49:10.940
You're not pulling, you're not flinching.

01:49:11.220 --> 01:49:14.910
And we will say too, you're
not shooting at a steel target.

01:49:14.929 --> 01:49:17.559
It does still give you like, whether
it's a silhouette or a bullseye

01:49:17.559 --> 01:49:21.600
or other, but it does have to
be within a nine inch diameter.

01:49:21.700 --> 01:49:21.890
Right.

01:49:21.900 --> 01:49:24.430
So obviously because you're going
from those different standards of

01:49:24.430 --> 01:49:27.730
your five, 10 and 15, obviously
you have a wider diameter.

01:49:28.160 --> 01:49:29.810
But I mean, you're still, you're moving.

01:49:29.910 --> 01:49:32.750
And I think that was one thing in the
test is that you go from standing to

01:49:32.750 --> 01:49:35.030
kneeling, unholster, make your shot.

01:49:35.440 --> 01:49:37.130
So there's a lot of communication.

01:49:37.130 --> 01:49:38.790
There's a lot of moving parts on this set.

01:49:38.990 --> 01:49:41.499
So I would definitely encourage
people, you know, when you're going

01:49:41.499 --> 01:49:45.170
down range and you're shooting
this as a target, practice.

01:49:45.940 --> 01:49:48.110
Articulate to the people that
you're working with because it

01:49:48.110 --> 01:49:50.380
just makes you a better marksman.

01:49:50.700 --> 01:49:55.579
It also makes you very cognizant because
for, for a safety mind, if I'm going

01:49:55.579 --> 01:49:59.919
to test you and I don't know you, I'm
going to feel more comfortable going,

01:49:59.919 --> 01:50:02.969
okay, this person's just said, all
right, we're going to go times on.

01:50:02.969 --> 01:50:05.890
I'm going to go from my hands to holster,
but I'm going to be taking it out.

01:50:06.010 --> 01:50:10.830
I like to have someone articulate to
me so I can anticipate, because it also

01:50:10.830 --> 01:50:12.530
shows me that they have confidence.

01:50:12.530 --> 01:50:16.620
And that was one thing that was passed
down to me when I did my test is that

01:50:16.630 --> 01:50:20.190
my, the person who tested me said
they admired that I had confidence,

01:50:20.199 --> 01:50:24.180
that I was able to articulate
because we are going to a live range.

01:50:24.460 --> 01:50:24.990
Travis Bader: I like that.

01:50:25.030 --> 01:50:29.590
And it also makes sure that if the
examiner doesn't see you doing something.

01:50:29.610 --> 01:50:29.920
Yes.

01:50:29.990 --> 01:50:31.130
Cause they're standing

01:50:31.130 --> 01:50:32.960
Rachel Athila: on one side
and my holster's on the other.

01:50:33.295 --> 01:50:37.055
Travis Bader: So did you, I heard that
sequence, you said, uh, going from

01:50:37.055 --> 01:50:38.645
standing to kneeling, then unholstering.

01:50:38.655 --> 01:50:40.245
So you unholster from a kneeling position.

01:50:40.645 --> 01:50:43.475
Typically we'd tell people to unholster
from a standing position, just so

01:50:43.475 --> 01:50:47.135
they're not, if they're depending on
what knee they're on, it's not pointing

01:50:47.135 --> 01:50:48.325
at their leg as they go through.

01:50:48.774 --> 01:50:53.294
Um, I may have heard
that wrong, but, um, the.

01:50:53.880 --> 01:50:59.380
And then you, of course, 20 seconds
here, scoring, uh, the administrator must

01:50:59.390 --> 01:51:03.470
indicate a total number of hits for each
of the shooting positions and distance a

01:51:03.470 --> 01:51:07.040
hit is awarded when a round lands on the
designated scoring area of the target.

01:51:07.040 --> 01:51:10.850
And like you said, the designated scoring
area is defined as being a circle with a

01:51:10.850 --> 01:51:13.759
radius of nine inches or 23 centimeters.

01:51:13.770 --> 01:51:15.090
And they used to actually say pie plate.

01:51:15.120 --> 01:51:16.140
He's a pie plate, right?

01:51:16.740 --> 01:51:22.425
Um, The applicant must achieve 15
hits for every 18 rounds fired.

01:51:22.425 --> 01:51:26.155
So again, from each shooting
position, that's 83%.

01:51:26.625 --> 01:51:30.375
If an applicant fails to achieve
the minimum pass mark, the applicant

01:51:30.385 --> 01:51:34.884
must be rested, sorry, must be
retested for the failed shooting

01:51:34.884 --> 01:51:36.754
position at all three distances.

01:51:38.014 --> 01:51:39.875
So same thing again.

01:51:40.315 --> 01:51:41.325
Uh.

01:51:41.525 --> 01:51:43.005
Rachel Athila: And I think that
would be something, Travis, we just

01:51:43.005 --> 01:51:46.377
talked about is, you know, when I
went down to a kneeling position, I

01:51:46.377 --> 01:51:50.240
would I chose to keep mine holstered
because then I wasn't moving.

01:51:51.700 --> 01:51:53.620
I, and maybe, maybe that's wrong.

01:51:53.620 --> 01:51:57.350
There was no dissertation on whether you
had to unholster and then go kneeling.

01:51:57.510 --> 01:52:01.340
Travis Bader: There is no right and wrong,
really, as long as you're doing it safely.

01:52:01.369 --> 01:52:01.549
Rachel Athila: Yes.

01:52:01.579 --> 01:52:04.300
Travis Bader: There is the common
school of thought, how everyone's

01:52:04.300 --> 01:52:07.410
like, this is how I was taught, so
this is how it's got to be done.

01:52:07.510 --> 01:52:07.870
Right.

01:52:08.055 --> 01:52:11.445
So there will be people who listen to
this and say, Nope, Nope, that's wrong.

01:52:11.455 --> 01:52:12.225
Cause it's not safe.

01:52:12.225 --> 01:52:14.775
And that's, that's the only reason
I interjected that one part,

01:52:15.085 --> 01:52:18.465
but realistically you should
be able to unholster, prone,

01:52:18.475 --> 01:52:21.024
supine, kneeling, sitting, right.

01:52:21.584 --> 01:52:23.315
Uh, and, and know how to do this.

01:52:23.324 --> 01:52:25.195
It's not always going to
be a perfect situation.

01:52:25.255 --> 01:52:27.755
Maybe you're knocked on your
arse and you got to get this

01:52:27.755 --> 01:52:29.135
gun out and work from there.

01:52:29.135 --> 01:52:29.445
Right.

01:52:30.145 --> 01:52:34.025
Um, but for most people,
the, the, the They know.

01:52:35.220 --> 01:52:35.510
Yeah.

01:52:35.710 --> 01:52:37.070
Training, they know
things in a certain way.

01:52:37.130 --> 01:52:37.550
Mm-Hmm.

01:52:37.950 --> 01:52:38.390
, I don't know.

01:52:38.585 --> 01:52:42.665
I, my A DHD mind thing seems to
paint outside the box of a lot.

01:52:42.665 --> 01:52:43.055
Oh, absolutely.

01:52:43.235 --> 01:52:43.565
Yeah.

01:52:43.895 --> 01:52:46.445
Rachel Athila: And I think for
myself, because, um, my examiner

01:52:46.445 --> 01:52:49.775
was standing on my left side, I'm
obviously, it was a right holster.

01:52:50.195 --> 01:52:53.225
I think when I, I went down, I
had, I was doing it in the snow

01:52:53.225 --> 01:52:55.955
after a blizzard, and I just said,
'cause it was slippery as well.

01:52:56.015 --> 01:52:56.225
Travis Bader: Yeah.

01:52:56.315 --> 01:52:59.015
Rachel Athila: So I think that's where
I, I made the choice where it's like, I'm

01:52:59.015 --> 01:53:01.025
gonna do my move action and then go f.

01:53:01.455 --> 01:53:04.665
Unholstered because that way, in
my mind's eye, it was the safest

01:53:04.665 --> 01:53:08.365
scenario because you can slip as
you go to kneeling in the snow.

01:53:08.495 --> 01:53:08.675
Travis Bader: Yeah.

01:53:08.725 --> 01:53:09.145
Rachel Athila: So,

01:53:10.165 --> 01:53:10.725
Travis Bader: um,

01:53:12.295 --> 01:53:13.375
Rachel Athila: caution and diligence.

01:53:13.415 --> 01:53:14.715
Travis Bader: Caution and diligence.

01:53:15.525 --> 01:53:18.904
It says an applicant can only
attempt a maximum of two retests

01:53:18.944 --> 01:53:20.305
for each shooting distance.

01:53:21.064 --> 01:53:25.035
If an applicant fails to achieve the
minimum pass mark after three attempts.

01:53:25.525 --> 01:53:31.205
For any distance, the applicant cannot
attempt to do the POP assessment for,

01:53:31.365 --> 01:53:35.555
unless 30 days have passed again,
exceptions I've seen have been made.

01:53:35.605 --> 01:53:38.605
The administrator must submit
all results, same as before.

01:53:39.195 --> 01:53:39.855
Um,

01:53:42.365 --> 01:53:45.895
You know, some people, and we
see it time and again, Oh, I want

01:53:45.895 --> 01:53:47.185
to have my proof of proficiency.

01:53:47.215 --> 01:53:48.395
They'll phone up our office.

01:53:48.515 --> 01:53:49.385
Yeah, not a problem.

01:53:49.385 --> 01:53:49.665
Right.

01:53:50.135 --> 01:53:52.695
Um, so we're gonna have
to rent a range, right?

01:53:52.965 --> 01:53:55.655
Uh, we're gonna have to make sure,
obviously as a company, we've

01:53:55.655 --> 01:53:59.785
got insurance, uh, sending you
out with an instructor examiner.

01:54:00.255 --> 01:54:02.155
They're at a high caliber at a high level.

01:54:02.605 --> 01:54:03.245
They need.

01:54:04.260 --> 01:54:06.030
Paid to be paid when they're out there.

01:54:06.030 --> 01:54:06.950
This is work, right?

01:54:07.430 --> 01:54:09.560
Our ranges aren't in our backyard.

01:54:09.560 --> 01:54:12.200
So there's travel there and back,
and then there's processing.

01:54:12.460 --> 01:54:17.510
Like it becomes costly endeavor, unless
somebody happens to have a friend who's

01:54:17.520 --> 01:54:21.250
putting them through and there's no money
exchanged, then you don't have to worry

01:54:21.250 --> 01:54:25.660
about, cause then you can still fall
underneath the, uh, the range's insurance.

01:54:26.130 --> 01:54:29.650
The second people start doing
this as a bit of a business, it.

01:54:29.925 --> 01:54:32.025
Yeah, it's costly to do it right.

01:54:32.685 --> 01:54:36.565
So I would be wary of dealing with
individuals who are doing this as a

01:54:36.565 --> 01:54:40.335
business, who are looking, who are
willing to cut corners and costs, they

01:54:40.335 --> 01:54:45.674
either, A, do it at no charge as a part of
their club and what they do, uh, or have

01:54:45.674 --> 01:54:47.374
some sort of a, something figured out.

01:54:47.375 --> 01:54:51.125
I don't know if there's a, uh, you
donate to the range or whatever it is,

01:54:51.375 --> 01:54:57.025
but you start looking for businesses
that offer this one, um, be prepared

01:54:57.025 --> 01:54:58.235
to spend some money to get out there.

01:54:58.235 --> 01:55:03.900
Um, I think, and then
it says shooting cold.

01:55:03.900 --> 01:55:05.920
There's nothing in here that
talks about shooting cold.

01:55:06.460 --> 01:55:09.370
Uh, but some people will make you do that.

01:55:10.540 --> 01:55:15.350
Again, all the same information, make,
model, caliber, all the rest, uh, first

01:55:15.350 --> 01:55:19.700
attempt, second attempt, third attempt,
five, 10 and 15 meters, pass or fail,

01:55:20.219 --> 01:55:28.500
um, prepared firearm and magazine, speed
loader safely, pass or fail, firearm

01:55:28.509 --> 01:55:32.940
holstered safely and prepare for the pop,
pass or fail, drawing for the holster

01:55:32.940 --> 01:55:34.960
and firing smoothly, pass or fail.

01:55:34.960 --> 01:55:37.000
And it gives the types
of targets that are used.

01:55:38.260 --> 01:55:39.030
Okay.

01:55:39.960 --> 01:55:40.930
Anything we should add on that?

01:55:41.220 --> 01:55:45.310
Rachel Athila: No, I think the, and
the biggest thing is just practice.

01:55:45.440 --> 01:55:45.670
Yeah.

01:55:45.680 --> 01:55:46.680
You know, I think that's.

01:55:46.680 --> 01:55:47.410
Were you pretty nervous?

01:55:47.750 --> 01:55:49.140
Uh, I'm not going to lie.

01:55:49.210 --> 01:55:53.220
Yes, I was because I wanted to do well.

01:55:53.780 --> 01:55:57.040
I wanted to do well and it,
I, I'm not going to lie.

01:55:57.050 --> 01:55:59.060
It was a blistering, colding day.

01:55:59.060 --> 01:55:59.950
It had been a blizzard.

01:55:59.950 --> 01:56:04.290
I had to cut spruce boughs to get up
this one part of our, literally with

01:56:04.290 --> 01:56:05.960
my ax so that my truck could get in.

01:56:05.960 --> 01:56:09.140
And then I was like, Oh my gosh, like this
is not setting me up for success here.

01:56:09.929 --> 01:56:10.340
You know?

01:56:10.340 --> 01:56:10.910
And.

01:56:11.885 --> 01:56:13.065
I also, it was December.

01:56:13.115 --> 01:56:14.385
I wanted to be on the trapline,

01:56:14.835 --> 01:56:15.085
Travis Bader: like

01:56:15.085 --> 01:56:18.385
Rachel Athila: I, I had a lot of
pressure, but at the same time, I'm

01:56:18.385 --> 01:56:22.395
very fortunate enough that I've had
an opportunity to train with some very

01:56:22.885 --> 01:56:27.475
highly decorated soldiers, ex military,
ex special agents, you know, through the

01:56:27.475 --> 01:56:30.775
SIG Sauer and through the instructors
that they have there at the academy.

01:56:30.775 --> 01:56:35.705
So I remember the process
and looking with both eyes.

01:56:35.705 --> 01:56:37.685
And I just, when I got to the range.

01:56:38.085 --> 01:56:41.895
It's almost like yoga minus the
lululemons where you just, you

01:56:41.895 --> 01:56:43.395
have to just get into the zone.

01:56:44.545 --> 01:56:48.765
And especially for someone that has
very little experience shooting pistols,

01:56:48.765 --> 01:56:50.194
except for when I would go to the States.

01:56:50.194 --> 01:56:55.094
And when I finally got mine and
I spent a lot of time with green

01:56:55.095 --> 01:56:57.704
thumbs when I go to the States and
they jokingly bring extra powder,

01:56:57.704 --> 01:57:01.115
but it's the Canadian way, you know.

01:57:02.505 --> 01:57:04.955
But my biggest advice is if you're
going to be nervous, shoot, shoot as

01:57:04.955 --> 01:57:06.455
much as you can, as often as you can.

01:57:07.175 --> 01:57:07.705
Travis Bader: Yes.

01:57:07.805 --> 01:57:09.655
And, you know, everyone talks about.

01:57:10.220 --> 01:57:14.230
Shooting is 90 percent
mental, 10 percent physical.

01:57:14.230 --> 01:57:16.950
And they'll say that for a lot of
sports and I find shooting, you got

01:57:16.950 --> 01:57:20.520
that instantaneous feedback loop
where if I did something poorly,

01:57:20.520 --> 01:57:22.040
I see it on the target right away.

01:57:22.880 --> 01:57:25.140
Um, work on that 90%.

01:57:25.930 --> 01:57:26.680
Dry fire.

01:57:26.850 --> 01:57:27.720
Dry fire.

01:57:28.009 --> 01:57:29.349
Visualize.

01:57:29.350 --> 01:57:29.639
Yes.

01:57:30.950 --> 01:57:34.010
Rachel Athila: Especially for Canada,
you know, dry fire ammo is expensive.

01:57:34.010 --> 01:57:37.960
And that's one thing I've done a lot
of, um, simulations with, uh, my friends

01:57:37.960 --> 01:57:41.420
at SIG when we do the guide training,
you know, you'll have a partner and

01:57:41.430 --> 01:57:43.280
you'll get handed your, your firearm.

01:57:43.580 --> 01:57:45.210
You present it, it
might have a live round.

01:57:45.210 --> 01:57:45.760
It might not.

01:57:45.800 --> 01:57:48.430
And you find your flinches,
you find everything.

01:57:48.929 --> 01:57:49.139
Travis Bader: And

01:57:49.219 --> 01:57:50.189
Rachel Athila: that's at home.

01:57:50.189 --> 01:57:51.440
I mean, you can practice.

01:57:51.490 --> 01:57:51.510
Yeah.

01:57:51.745 --> 01:57:54.825
With your restricted firearm at home,
empty, make sure proof it's safe.

01:57:55.165 --> 01:57:58.515
You can take your empty magazine
and you don't even have to put your

01:57:58.515 --> 01:58:02.764
magazine and you can rack it and
you practice your trigger control.

01:58:03.574 --> 01:58:06.505
And I, um, Trevor Thompson,
he's a friend of mine.

01:58:06.545 --> 01:58:08.484
He gave me some really positive advice.

01:58:08.905 --> 01:58:11.895
Practice how you shoot and
presentation is everything.

01:58:11.905 --> 01:58:13.015
Make it muscle memory.

01:58:13.185 --> 01:58:18.175
And that's one thing that as soon
as I started practicing, as much

01:58:18.175 --> 01:58:20.355
as I was nervous and cold and we
were sitting out in the snow bank

01:58:20.355 --> 01:58:21.515
on the day that I did my test.

01:58:22.155 --> 01:58:24.725
I got into the zone
because it was familiar.

01:58:25.145 --> 01:58:27.375
And as soon as you go to a
place of familiarity when you're

01:58:27.375 --> 01:58:29.710
nervous, The world calms down.

01:58:30.555 --> 01:58:31.245
And you shoot well.

01:58:31.875 --> 01:58:32.705
Travis Bader: I love that advice.

01:58:32.805 --> 01:58:35.355
And that ball and dummy is what they
call it, whether you have a live

01:58:35.355 --> 01:58:38.795
round or a dud and, and, uh, you
can sure see if you're flinching.

01:58:38.825 --> 01:58:39.044
Oh

01:58:39.044 --> 01:58:39.354
Rachel Athila: man.

01:58:39.355 --> 01:58:42.358
I'll tell you what, you want to see
a Canadian and I was like, you'll

01:58:42.358 --> 01:58:43.874
see, pew, pew, and I was like.

01:58:43.874 --> 01:58:46.125
A couple of my American
friends, they laugh, but.

01:58:46.305 --> 01:58:49.975
Travis Bader: In the, uh, the drawing,
I mean, if you're getting ready

01:58:49.975 --> 01:58:52.175
for your shift, there's nothing,
no reason, it's going over to the

01:58:52.175 --> 01:58:53.165
loading port, going to load up.

01:58:53.415 --> 01:58:56.715
No, nothing that says you can't
draw and holster 10 times in the

01:58:56.715 --> 01:58:59.684
morning, unload at the end of the
day, draw and holster 10 times.

01:59:00.090 --> 01:59:00.990
Man, that adds up.

01:59:00.990 --> 01:59:01.360
You got to,

01:59:01.460 --> 01:59:01.810
Rachel Athila: yeah,

01:59:01.930 --> 01:59:02.450
Travis Bader: you get.

01:59:02.830 --> 01:59:05.300
Rachel Athila: And the firearms
these days are so forgiving.

01:59:05.410 --> 01:59:07.930
Cause I, I asked, I was like,
well, this wreck my firing pin.

01:59:08.149 --> 01:59:08.860
Absolutely not.

01:59:09.479 --> 01:59:12.260
And I, I asked, I was like, how
often do I have to clean my gun?

01:59:12.290 --> 01:59:15.240
And some of the, like the gentlemen
that train have worked extensively.

01:59:15.240 --> 01:59:17.209
They're like, they're forgiving.

01:59:17.349 --> 01:59:19.089
I've drug it through hell.

01:59:19.150 --> 01:59:19.220
Yeah.

01:59:20.290 --> 01:59:22.860
Obviously, if it gets dirty, you
clean it, but that's one thing.

01:59:22.870 --> 01:59:27.040
Do not be afraid to dry fire and do that
practice because that practice is perfect.

01:59:27.600 --> 01:59:28.230
It's the way to do it.

01:59:29.140 --> 01:59:30.800
Travis Bader: Perfect
practice makes perfect.

01:59:32.540 --> 01:59:35.790
So questions, uh, what is your
profession or occupation as it

01:59:35.800 --> 01:59:37.039
relates to this application?

01:59:37.380 --> 01:59:38.849
Describe your work duties.

01:59:39.229 --> 01:59:44.529
And so, you know, as a free miner,
I'm working in, uh, remote wilderness

01:59:44.529 --> 01:59:49.020
areas as a free miner, and I just, you
know, leave it really wide and open.

01:59:49.030 --> 01:59:50.010
Well, what'd you say?

01:59:50.480 --> 01:59:51.530
Rachel Athila: Well, honestly, so.

01:59:52.145 --> 01:59:56.015
I did it as a trapper for the wilderness
side of it, um, because that's what I

01:59:56.015 --> 01:59:59.855
thought my prerogative was and I wanted
to just get my first application in.

01:59:59.905 --> 02:00:01.775
So I said, you know, I
work in a remote setting.

02:00:02.705 --> 02:00:07.395
Um, I will, I, I will be active and not
limited to carrying and transporting

02:00:07.404 --> 02:00:12.655
game, large amounts of traps and related
supplies and tools, uh, to perform my

02:00:12.655 --> 02:00:16.895
occupation as well as navigating changing
terrain and modes of transportation.

02:00:17.765 --> 02:00:22.230
So that answer is, The meat
and potatoes of everything.

02:00:22.230 --> 02:00:25.390
I'm not saying I'm just going to use
an SUV in the summer, I might be using

02:00:25.390 --> 02:00:26.910
my horses to look for squirrel middens.

02:00:26.930 --> 02:00:29.620
Cause I'm still trying to
learn my area, you know, you

02:00:29.620 --> 02:00:30.849
don't want to limit yourself.

02:00:30.849 --> 02:00:34.279
So that's why when you say all
forms of transportation, you

02:00:34.280 --> 02:00:35.859
know, it's all encompassing.

02:00:36.880 --> 02:00:40.750
Um, the, the crazy part is Travis
said, I want to touch on this as we

02:00:40.750 --> 02:00:45.980
go through this application is when
you get your wilderness ATC, and

02:00:45.980 --> 02:00:48.950
this is a question I actually had
for Travis coming up to this event

02:00:48.960 --> 02:00:51.730
is when you have your wilderness ATC.

02:00:52.230 --> 02:00:53.760
I'm obviously a registered trapper.

02:00:54.200 --> 02:00:57.740
I work on a very remote cattle ranch
that has all sorts of things with

02:00:57.740 --> 02:01:03.349
teeth and animals that, you know,
are prey and I work as a guide.

02:01:04.180 --> 02:01:08.879
So can a person, does a person
answer all of those things?

02:01:08.880 --> 02:01:13.739
Because under the special qualifications
on your actual license and permit, can you

02:01:13.739 --> 02:01:17.809
be qualified for all of those different
jurisdictions or is it only for one?

02:01:18.159 --> 02:01:19.339
Travis Bader: As long as you are.

02:01:19.535 --> 02:01:23.895
Working in a remote wilderness area,
you can be qualified on that one.

02:01:24.445 --> 02:01:26.445
So that, that leaves it there.

02:01:26.695 --> 02:01:29.855
I've seen reluctance to issue
it for certain professions or

02:01:29.885 --> 02:01:33.814
other professions, but that comes
down to what did the law say?

02:01:33.885 --> 02:01:35.465
Occupation or profession.

02:01:36.774 --> 02:01:43.075
Well, you are working on that law, lawful
possession, profession, or occupation.

02:01:44.175 --> 02:01:49.365
Now, if you get issued for one and you're
like, now I want to carry it for the

02:01:49.395 --> 02:01:56.090
other, That I would say would find you
offside, you get issued for one and you

02:01:56.090 --> 02:02:01.640
say, I'm also working on these other
areas that keeps you on side, because

02:02:01.640 --> 02:02:05.829
if it was issued for a certain lawful
occupation or profession, like for

02:02:05.830 --> 02:02:10.049
example, I'm an armed guard and I want to
go outside now and, and in a wilderness

02:02:10.049 --> 02:02:16.660
area, it doesn't correlate, translate
over, but you can be, Uh, certified in all

02:02:16.660 --> 02:02:18.230
these different areas that you do work.

02:02:19.150 --> 02:02:20.230
Rachel Athila: We'll
touch on that one later.

02:02:20.640 --> 02:02:24.590
That was a big question from the
audience is I do X, Y, and Z.

02:02:26.010 --> 02:02:27.640
These are all year round activities.

02:02:28.309 --> 02:02:30.149
How can I go about doing that?

02:02:30.160 --> 02:02:31.880
Travis Bader: You just put
it down with what your lawful

02:02:31.880 --> 02:02:33.259
professional occupation is.

02:02:33.370 --> 02:02:33.610
Rachel Athila: Yeah.

02:02:33.720 --> 02:02:34.600
On your application.

02:02:34.790 --> 02:02:37.159
What if you've done your application
and submitted it already?

02:02:37.189 --> 02:02:37.869
Like myself.

02:02:37.869 --> 02:02:37.979
You can

02:02:37.979 --> 02:02:38.609
Travis Bader: have it updated.

02:02:39.420 --> 02:02:41.070
You can have that
updated in like 24 hours.

02:02:44.170 --> 02:02:45.100
All right, here we go.

02:02:45.130 --> 02:02:49.060
So there, there might be, now
keep in mind, every application

02:02:49.090 --> 02:02:50.930
is based as brand new, right?

02:02:51.300 --> 02:02:52.699
When you go through a renewal.

02:02:52.989 --> 02:02:53.450
So I would

02:02:53.460 --> 02:02:55.259
Rachel Athila: have to do
the entire application.

02:02:55.489 --> 02:02:57.909
Travis Bader: You'd fill it out
again with the new information.

02:02:58.320 --> 02:03:02.400
This is where dealing with that idea
that each one has done brand new.

02:03:02.615 --> 02:03:03.955
That's policy, right?

02:03:03.955 --> 02:03:04.275
Okay.

02:03:04.315 --> 02:03:06.055
This is where we're
dealing with people again.

02:03:06.065 --> 02:03:09.105
So this is, look at here's, I'm working.

02:03:09.105 --> 02:03:10.975
I want to make sure that
I'm on the right side.

02:03:10.985 --> 02:03:14.215
Make sure I have it listed on my ATC.

02:03:14.565 --> 02:03:16.935
Now I'm guiding, now I'm doing this.

02:03:17.794 --> 02:03:19.455
Uh, what will it come back?

02:03:19.605 --> 02:03:22.015
Um, well, you're guiding, do
you have a rifle with you?

02:03:24.335 --> 02:03:26.165
If you have a rifle with you,
why don't you just use that?

02:03:27.190 --> 02:03:28.750
Do I have a rifle with me all the time?

02:03:28.830 --> 02:03:29.070
Right.

02:03:29.070 --> 02:03:31.760
Would be the, um, I need it.

02:03:31.850 --> 02:03:34.280
I need something that's going
to be with me at all times.

02:03:34.300 --> 02:03:36.810
Yes, I've got a rifle, but there's
times it's going to be in the scabbard.

02:03:36.810 --> 02:03:37.700
It's going to be on the horse.

02:03:37.700 --> 02:03:42.660
And there's going to be times
I'm with, uh, somebody else.

02:03:42.700 --> 02:03:44.340
Oh, does that somebody
else have a firearm?

02:03:44.570 --> 02:03:46.270
What do you need the, uh, the handgun for?

02:03:47.000 --> 02:03:47.340
Right.

02:03:47.540 --> 02:03:51.400
So now I've got to depend on that
somebody else to protect my life.

02:03:51.965 --> 02:03:54.185
I'm the one who's in charge
of their life, right?

02:03:54.185 --> 02:03:55.495
This is my profession, right?

02:03:55.875 --> 02:03:59.915
So I'm the one who's been paid
to take them and myself home

02:03:59.955 --> 02:04:01.305
safely at the, at the end of it.

02:04:01.605 --> 02:04:04.595
So these are some of the questions
that I can, I could anticipate based

02:04:04.595 --> 02:04:05.735
on what I've heard in the past.

02:04:06.494 --> 02:04:08.440
Um, Oh, you're going out right now.

02:04:08.440 --> 02:04:09.250
What do you use?

02:04:09.300 --> 02:04:09.520
Right.

02:04:09.530 --> 02:04:11.310
That was, that was the
one that stuck with me.

02:04:12.470 --> 02:04:15.360
I am physically not able to
carry anything else at the time.

02:04:15.440 --> 02:04:15.800
Right.

02:04:16.080 --> 02:04:18.340
Um, oh, you're carrying bear spray.

02:04:18.350 --> 02:04:19.270
You doing other things?

02:04:19.310 --> 02:04:19.629
Yes.

02:04:19.629 --> 02:04:24.509
But I'd like to have the, uh, the handgun
because the efficacy of bear spray is, and

02:04:24.510 --> 02:04:26.870
we can get into that whole thing as well.

02:04:27.100 --> 02:04:27.340
Yeah.

02:04:27.540 --> 02:04:31.850
Um, So yes, it can encompass more things.

02:04:32.320 --> 02:04:35.740
No, I would not have it issued under
one thing and use it for something

02:04:35.740 --> 02:04:37.450
else and expect for people to not.

02:04:38.029 --> 02:04:38.399
Rachel Athila: Yes.

02:04:38.960 --> 02:04:41.170
That's the biggest thing is
looking at your specifications.

02:04:41.630 --> 02:04:45.199
And so as a person goes through these
questions, just for the people who had

02:04:45.200 --> 02:04:49.390
questions about it in the audience,
that was a big one is if I'm permitted

02:04:49.390 --> 02:04:51.930
for one, how do I one reapply?

02:04:52.310 --> 02:04:56.450
Two, do I have to do another whole
questionnaire or three, can I

02:04:56.460 --> 02:04:59.770
have it all encompassing If I'm
submitting this for the first time.

02:04:59.790 --> 02:05:01.810
Travis Bader: So what I've
actually seen happen is.

02:05:02.465 --> 02:05:09.575
Um, I am also doing this, I am following
all of the exact same protocol as before.

02:05:09.615 --> 02:05:11.105
The only addition is this.

02:05:11.335 --> 02:05:12.395
Can I have it updated?

02:05:13.295 --> 02:05:14.115
And I've seen that.

02:05:15.465 --> 02:05:19.795
Is that going to allegedly, is that
because, you know, the, The difficult

02:05:19.795 --> 02:05:22.035
part is, is these people are nice people.

02:05:22.055 --> 02:05:25.105
A lot of them are decent people and you
don't want to throw them under the bus

02:05:25.105 --> 02:05:26.575
when they're doing you a favor, right?

02:05:26.575 --> 02:05:29.454
You feel good cause, oh, those
really nice are looking out for me.

02:05:29.454 --> 02:05:30.725
But were they doing me a favor?

02:05:30.775 --> 02:05:32.235
Like really just do the job.

02:05:32.835 --> 02:05:35.005
This is to protect my life
and this is something that I'm

02:05:35.015 --> 02:05:37.094
properly qualified and trained for.

02:05:37.265 --> 02:05:38.155
Just add it on.

02:05:38.205 --> 02:05:41.055
But this relationship, this
whole Stockholm syndrome thing

02:05:41.055 --> 02:05:42.845
kind of falls into place.

02:05:43.420 --> 02:05:47.340
Um, and I, that's where I'm hoping
this podcast will help normalize it.

02:05:47.670 --> 02:05:48.270
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:05:48.280 --> 02:05:52.050
And if anything, the amount of guides
that I know that have had interactions

02:05:52.050 --> 02:05:55.980
with predators that have meant them
harm, you know, your guns leaning

02:05:55.980 --> 02:05:58.790
against here while you're gutting
a moose, your pistol is on your hip

02:05:59.430 --> 02:06:02.999
and there's been a lot of instances
and some, unfortunately, very fatal.

02:06:03.165 --> 02:06:06.435
That, you know, have, have cost
people their lives or they've been

02:06:06.435 --> 02:06:10.845
maimed to the point where they don't
partake in certain activities anymore

02:06:10.855 --> 02:06:12.365
because of fear that's been installed.

02:06:12.434 --> 02:06:17.004
And that's one thing is that I hope
that this would help be a skill set to

02:06:17.004 --> 02:06:21.234
help them walk through an application
so that that way they're using

02:06:21.234 --> 02:06:25.105
them in the most, in the best case
scenario, obviously, you minimize it.

02:06:25.405 --> 02:06:29.685
But we just want everyone to
be safe in the best country.

02:06:30.075 --> 02:06:30.635
Travis Bader: Yes.

02:06:31.305 --> 02:06:35.394
Um, define the specific remote
geographical area where you wish

02:06:35.394 --> 02:06:37.164
to carry a handgun while working.

02:06:37.675 --> 02:06:38.475
And what did I put?

02:06:38.495 --> 02:06:40.624
And I'm looking back as my form
was a little bit different.

02:06:40.635 --> 02:06:42.105
They had a little bit different questions.

02:06:42.934 --> 02:06:48.460
Um, Anyways, uh, yeah, throughout
BC on Crown land and remote

02:06:48.570 --> 02:06:50.560
wilderness areas is what I put.

02:06:50.680 --> 02:06:51.190
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:06:51.380 --> 02:06:55.679
And for trapping, you know, um, because I
did go after my wilderness to carry as a

02:06:55.679 --> 02:07:00.830
trapping, you know, outside of dispatch,
um, I just said with landowner permission.

02:07:01.279 --> 02:07:01.569
Travis Bader: Right.

02:07:01.779 --> 02:07:04.160
Rachel Athila: So that's a big
one is that you have to have

02:07:04.160 --> 02:07:05.140
that written down in there.

02:07:05.470 --> 02:07:05.860
Yes.

02:07:05.870 --> 02:07:06.170
So.

02:07:07.100 --> 02:07:07.450
Travis Bader: Okay.

02:07:07.550 --> 02:07:14.005
Um, what dates do you anticipate Being
required to work in that area every day.

02:07:14.225 --> 02:07:15.195
Every day, the year

02:07:15.195 --> 02:07:16.235
Rachel Athila: round occupation.

02:07:17.185 --> 02:07:19.784
Travis Bader: Explain why you feel you
need to carry a handgun in relation

02:07:19.784 --> 02:07:24.015
to your profession or your occupation,
as opposed to a more effective methods

02:07:24.015 --> 02:07:25.875
of protection for predatory animals.

02:07:26.085 --> 02:07:28.624
Example, spray, rifle, shotgun.

02:07:28.954 --> 02:07:32.225
I like how they say spray is
more effective than a handgun.

02:07:32.365 --> 02:07:34.245
Rifle and shotgun is more effective.

02:07:34.605 --> 02:07:38.050
Well, What's going to be effective is the
thing that you have with you at the time.

02:07:38.290 --> 02:07:38.820
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:07:38.920 --> 02:07:40.360
Travis Bader: That's
going to be effective.

02:07:40.750 --> 02:07:43.320
Uh, and the handgun is
always going to be with you.

02:07:43.320 --> 02:07:44.440
It's going to be worn with you.

02:07:44.939 --> 02:07:51.599
Uh, I don't disagree that a rifle
or a shotgun with slugs, um, will

02:07:51.609 --> 02:07:58.400
do greater penetration, more kinetic
energy can do greater damage.

02:07:59.055 --> 02:08:02.045
But it's like you were saying,
it's, you don't have your rifle

02:08:02.045 --> 02:08:02.935
in your hand while you're getting.

02:08:03.055 --> 02:08:04.585
Rachel Athila: It's fast
reaction times as well.

02:08:04.585 --> 02:08:08.254
I mean, by the time you actively
go pull, pull up your long rifle,

02:08:08.254 --> 02:08:09.255
I mean, that takes seconds.

02:08:09.265 --> 02:08:12.445
Sometimes the act of trying
to find and locate your rifle,

02:08:12.525 --> 02:08:13.745
it's not on your person.

02:08:14.295 --> 02:08:15.395
Practice makes perfect.

02:08:15.985 --> 02:08:18.855
Travis Bader: And the idea that
spray is going to be more effective.

02:08:19.275 --> 02:08:21.175
Rachel Athila: It has to be
effective at very close distances.

02:08:21.690 --> 02:08:21.970
Travis Bader: Right.

02:08:22.000 --> 02:08:26.490
And it also has to be, I haven't
seen bear spray being tested against,

02:08:26.920 --> 02:08:30.180
uh, predatory aggressive animals.

02:08:30.180 --> 02:08:33.630
These are just animals that are passively
activated, you have to say, walking

02:08:33.630 --> 02:08:35.100
on through, you give it a squirt.

02:08:35.109 --> 02:08:35.970
It's like, I don't like this.

02:08:35.970 --> 02:08:36.519
I'm going to leave.

02:08:36.699 --> 02:08:39.440
They're the same ones I would leave if
you smacked them in the butt with a broom.

02:08:39.459 --> 02:08:39.749
Right?

02:08:40.700 --> 02:08:41.220
Rachel Athila: Exactly.

02:08:41.220 --> 02:08:43.870
When they're in full predator
mode and they're coming in,

02:08:43.870 --> 02:08:45.520
they're engaged to do harm.

02:08:45.650 --> 02:08:45.950
Travis Bader: Right.

02:08:46.190 --> 02:08:47.120
Rachel Athila: A miscloud of prey.

02:08:47.975 --> 02:08:49.425
Pepper is not going to do it.

02:08:49.445 --> 02:08:49.865
No,

02:08:49.875 --> 02:08:53.385
Travis Bader: that's where central
nervous system or lack of oxygen,

02:08:53.805 --> 02:08:55.205
that, that comes into play.

02:08:55.565 --> 02:08:58.455
So I, I don't discount pepper spray.

02:08:58.595 --> 02:09:00.275
Pepper spray is a great tool.

02:09:00.975 --> 02:09:01.825
Rachel Athila: In the right scenario.

02:09:01.875 --> 02:09:05.764
Travis Bader: It's just another tool
that can be used, but it's not a panacea.

02:09:05.764 --> 02:09:07.315
It's not the be all end all.

02:09:07.405 --> 02:09:07.765
Rachel Athila: Yes.

02:09:08.195 --> 02:09:10.815
But that's the thing too, is that
when you come back to it, is that

02:09:10.825 --> 02:09:12.595
handguns are the most effective tool.

02:09:13.000 --> 02:09:13.140
They are.

02:09:13.360 --> 02:09:16.450
In a wide variety, there
is a method of protection.

02:09:16.720 --> 02:09:21.270
Um, and the biggest thing is that
your hands are not encumbered

02:09:21.350 --> 02:09:22.700
by having to carry your weapon.

02:09:22.879 --> 02:09:23.109
Right.

02:09:23.110 --> 02:09:25.539
When you're in a wilderness scenario,
whether you're free mining, whether

02:09:25.539 --> 02:09:28.930
you're a forester, whether you're a
guide tying up a horse, caring for

02:09:28.930 --> 02:09:32.790
your client, you know, you're a trapper
carrying in your sets, your hands

02:09:32.790 --> 02:09:38.880
are always full and a back, a back,
um, sling for a rifle isn't, Isn't

02:09:38.880 --> 02:09:41.400
conducive or quick acting as far as safe.

02:09:41.400 --> 02:09:43.710
You'd have to drop everything,
try and sling your rifle around.

02:09:44.030 --> 02:09:46.670
You can drop what you have in your
hands and your holster is right there.

02:09:46.890 --> 02:09:48.390
Travis Bader: And it's not
always practical either.

02:09:48.490 --> 02:09:48.650
Rachel Athila: No.

02:09:48.809 --> 02:09:51.329
Travis Bader: You go through
brush and scrub and I mean, you've

02:09:51.330 --> 02:09:52.729
got this rifle on your back.

02:09:52.729 --> 02:09:54.100
That's dragging on everything.

02:09:54.380 --> 02:09:54.660
Rachel Athila: Yeah.

02:09:55.739 --> 02:09:55.879
Travis Bader: Okay.

02:09:56.020 --> 02:09:56.299
And the

02:09:56.299 --> 02:09:59.310
Rachel Athila: biggest thing too, that
I know when I talked to the CFO is that.

02:09:59.785 --> 02:10:02.755
A lot of times you're putting
yourself in close call situations.

02:10:03.015 --> 02:10:06.635
So, and that's even close as far as
proximity, you might not have the room

02:10:06.635 --> 02:10:09.695
to swing a rifle around because if you
and I are standing there and our rifle's

02:10:10.075 --> 02:10:14.554
between us, I mean, good practice is
I'm not going to swing the rifle in

02:10:14.555 --> 02:10:18.344
front of you while I'm loading it to
protect us, you know, like in best case

02:10:18.345 --> 02:10:22.675
scenario, like it's, you have a lot more
muzzle control with a smaller object

02:10:22.675 --> 02:10:26.990
where I can spin my person around And
present the, you know, the firearm.

02:10:28.250 --> 02:10:30.570
Travis Bader: But there's an, as
you're talking there, I'm reading

02:10:30.570 --> 02:10:34.829
as well, uh, protect from predatory
animals, nowhere in the regulations

02:10:34.830 --> 02:10:36.119
does it say predatory animals.

02:10:36.120 --> 02:10:38.049
This is wild animals again, right?

02:10:38.050 --> 02:10:43.459
So it's like, I get where people's heads
are and quite often people are like,

02:10:43.459 --> 02:10:45.309
well, it's got to be good for a bear.

02:10:45.329 --> 02:10:46.289
You need it for bear.

02:10:46.370 --> 02:10:49.780
And that's the only thing that kind
of sits Uh, in a lot of people's

02:10:49.780 --> 02:10:54.230
minds and the issuing body's mind,
but they're, you know, wolves.

02:10:54.230 --> 02:10:54.320
Yeah.

02:10:54.320 --> 02:10:54.520
Okay.

02:10:54.520 --> 02:10:57.950
They're a predatory animal,
uh, calf cow, right?

02:10:57.980 --> 02:11:00.280
Like you were saying, there's.

02:11:00.679 --> 02:11:00.960
Or an

02:11:00.969 --> 02:11:03.379
Rachel Athila: animal that's been
maimed by a predator and you ended

02:11:03.380 --> 02:11:04.790
up, you end up walking into them.

02:11:04.790 --> 02:11:06.010
I mean, they're in defense.

02:11:06.079 --> 02:11:06.369
Travis Bader: Yeah.

02:11:06.509 --> 02:11:07.069
Rachel Athila: Um,

02:11:07.349 --> 02:11:09.470
Travis Bader: so it's not
necessarily predatory animals

02:11:09.470 --> 02:11:10.690
that you're carrying it for.

02:11:10.960 --> 02:11:11.170
Rachel Athila: Yeah.

02:11:11.360 --> 02:11:13.820
Travis Bader: The
regulations say wild animals.

02:11:13.820 --> 02:11:13.979
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:11:13.980 --> 02:11:14.680
Absolutely.

02:11:15.210 --> 02:11:19.330
Travis Bader: Um, while working in the
remote, while working in this remote

02:11:19.360 --> 02:11:24.110
area, how many people will work in the
immediate area with you within sight or

02:11:24.110 --> 02:11:26.200
within verbal communication distance?

02:11:27.100 --> 02:11:29.949
So I, I say typically zero.

02:11:30.395 --> 02:11:30.875
That's what I wrote.

02:11:30.905 --> 02:11:31.325
What'd you write?

02:11:31.455 --> 02:11:33.945
Rachel Athila: I've wrote typically
zero, you know, a lot of times you're

02:11:33.945 --> 02:11:38.185
working alone or you're in one or
two small people groups and there's

02:11:38.185 --> 02:11:39.785
a lot of communication that happens.

02:11:40.325 --> 02:11:45.444
Um, again, you know, I said that
while you're working, I am in the

02:11:45.444 --> 02:11:50.964
act of working, chainsaws, tools,
horses, equipment, supplies, my

02:11:50.964 --> 02:11:54.165
hands are busy, and that's, again,
where it comes back to is that your

02:11:54.165 --> 02:11:56.195
hands are busy and otherwise engaged.

02:11:56.525 --> 02:11:59.315
You are not actively
carrying a defense mechanism.

02:11:59.535 --> 02:11:59.895
Travis Bader: Right.

02:11:59.945 --> 02:12:00.195
Rachel Athila: So.

02:12:01.455 --> 02:12:05.095
Travis Bader: Are you registered
with British Columbia, WorkSafe

02:12:05.095 --> 02:12:08.695
BC, or Yukon Workers Compensation
Health and Safety Board in the

02:12:08.775 --> 02:12:11.855
aforementioned profession or occupation?

02:12:11.864 --> 02:12:13.155
Identify how.

02:12:13.565 --> 02:12:14.605
I said, nope.

02:12:15.755 --> 02:12:15.985
Rachel Athila: Yes.

02:12:16.014 --> 02:12:18.985
I, I honestly, um, those questions
there, I said not applicable.

02:12:19.005 --> 02:12:19.165
Yeah.

02:12:19.165 --> 02:12:20.473
That's what I put in, it's not applicable.

02:12:20.473 --> 02:12:22.875
Cause the biggest thing is sometimes
you're working underneath a guide

02:12:22.875 --> 02:12:26.285
outfitter, especially if you get
certified to carry under guide outfitter,

02:12:26.645 --> 02:12:30.555
I mean, they've signed off on it
and they have their own insurance.

02:12:31.920 --> 02:12:34.880
So you've made it aware that you
will be carrying, you are lawfully,

02:12:35.050 --> 02:12:38.800
legally allowed to carry, um, so
your, your due diligence is letting

02:12:38.800 --> 02:12:41.700
them know, and obviously they've
signed off on your, your work permit.

02:12:41.709 --> 02:12:42.009
So,

02:12:43.340 --> 02:12:47.709
Travis Bader: um, if yes, have you or
your employer met the obligation under

02:12:47.709 --> 02:12:51.710
the regional workers compensation board
legislation by providing you the worker

02:12:51.720 --> 02:12:55.880
with training and instruction on the
safe handling use of the firearms?

02:12:56.060 --> 02:12:59.100
So if that's applicable to the
individual, we answer as it is

02:12:59.400 --> 02:13:00.689
for me, it was not applicable as

02:13:01.430 --> 02:13:01.700
Rachel Athila: well.

02:13:02.305 --> 02:13:07.315
Travis Bader: Uh, explain the risk
assessment your employer has conducted in

02:13:07.355 --> 02:13:11.365
relation to safe avoidance of hazardous
wildlife in the remote area in which you

02:13:11.365 --> 02:13:13.415
will be required to work, attach copy.

02:13:13.945 --> 02:13:14.925
So it's, that's different.

02:13:14.975 --> 02:13:18.635
Explain the risk avoidance your
employer has in, has conducted.

02:13:18.935 --> 02:13:23.385
Well, previously they said,
uh, that you had conducted.

02:13:23.385 --> 02:13:24.260
Rachel Athila: So

02:13:24.260 --> 02:13:25.134
Travis Bader: the

02:13:25.135 --> 02:13:26.435
Rachel Athila: wording has changed a bit.

02:13:26.595 --> 02:13:29.914
I know for myself, I said, because I
am self employed, you know, I actively

02:13:29.914 --> 02:13:33.844
solicit, you know, local knowledge before
entering into an area, I'll talk to the

02:13:33.845 --> 02:13:37.145
other stakeholders that are there, you
know, especially if there's other industry

02:13:37.145 --> 02:13:40.665
practices, uh, for example, like where
the trapline is, they were logging.

02:13:40.815 --> 02:13:44.490
I, I ran into logging trucks
and other people On the daily.

02:13:44.830 --> 02:13:48.960
So, you know, um, keeping the
communication open and if there's

02:13:48.960 --> 02:13:52.040
people like tree planters and
stuff like that during the summer,

02:13:52.260 --> 02:13:55.900
obviously you make yourself
known, make yourself aware, right?

02:13:55.999 --> 02:13:58.640
Um, and that's the biggest thing
too, especially if you have predatory

02:13:58.640 --> 02:14:02.219
animals or you have a cow calf, for
example, you know, there's a part

02:14:02.220 --> 02:14:05.390
of the, um, trapline I wanted to go
look at that's particularly swampy.

02:14:05.590 --> 02:14:07.810
I wanted to see if there was
any aquatic animals in there.

02:14:08.780 --> 02:14:10.040
There was also a cow and calf moose.

02:14:10.080 --> 02:14:12.769
I am going to avoid that area
at all costs because I don't

02:14:12.770 --> 02:14:13.940
want to have a confrontation.

02:14:14.510 --> 02:14:19.280
But another one too, for trapping, and
even for guide outfitting, and depending

02:14:19.280 --> 02:14:23.340
on what your jurisdiction is, don't be
afraid to introduce yourself to your

02:14:23.340 --> 02:14:27.070
local CO, your conservation officer,
um, if there's a local detachment

02:14:27.070 --> 02:14:33.139
that you know, uh, frequency area,
um, it's good to be on speaking terms

02:14:33.139 --> 02:14:36.179
and, and first name with all of the
other industries and stakeholders.

02:14:36.189 --> 02:14:36.509
A hundred

02:14:36.509 --> 02:14:36.829
Travis Bader: percent.

02:14:38.480 --> 02:14:43.040
Uh, I wrote down, I obtained recent intel
from locals and those working in the area.

02:14:43.370 --> 02:14:48.680
This may include aerial views, uh, recce
reports, reconnaissance reports, stats,

02:14:48.680 --> 02:14:50.940
and sightings and encounter reports.

02:14:51.290 --> 02:14:54.609
So just, it's pretty broad and open,
but I mean, if I'm going to go out,

02:14:54.610 --> 02:14:56.309
I'm going to do my due diligence.

02:14:56.680 --> 02:14:58.750
Like you said, talk to people
who will be in the area.

02:14:58.830 --> 02:14:59.480
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:15:02.400 --> 02:15:02.670
Let's get

02:15:03.030 --> 02:15:04.690
Travis Bader: over here, next page.

02:15:06.860 --> 02:15:10.100
Explain what information you have
obtained from British Columbia slash

02:15:10.120 --> 02:15:14.240
Yukon conservation officers with
regards to predatory animals in remote

02:15:14.240 --> 02:15:19.010
wilderness area in which you will work,
please provide the names and contact

02:15:19.019 --> 02:15:20.729
information to all those who consulted.

02:15:20.729 --> 02:15:22.589
So this is a newer one that they put in.

02:15:22.899 --> 02:15:26.349
I was never asked this about
which conservation officers, like

02:15:26.350 --> 02:15:29.980
you, I'm friends with a number of
conservation officers and they are

02:15:30.380 --> 02:15:33.079
on the hotline go to that I'll talk
to you and I'll phone up, right.

02:15:33.090 --> 02:15:33.620
And yeah.

02:15:34.050 --> 02:15:35.250
And, and get information.

02:15:35.270 --> 02:15:41.080
But, um, to me, when I read that,
that looks like third party denial.

02:15:41.520 --> 02:15:45.330
Essentially, it looks like, well,
you were denied because I talked

02:15:45.330 --> 02:15:49.170
to the conservation officer and
I asked them a bunch of questions

02:15:49.200 --> 02:15:50.749
and they answered no to it.

02:15:51.219 --> 02:15:54.220
Oh, did Rachel ask you ABCD, right?

02:15:54.400 --> 02:15:55.930
Did Rachel go and blah, blah, blah.

02:15:56.140 --> 02:15:58.520
Well, no, no, no, they didn't say that.

02:15:58.660 --> 02:15:58.910
Right.

02:15:59.160 --> 02:16:00.200
Whatever it might be.

02:16:00.585 --> 02:16:06.625
To me, it just reads like a way to deny
a person's application that brings that,

02:16:06.985 --> 02:16:11.925
that level of control away from both
the firearms officer and yourself and

02:16:11.925 --> 02:16:13.695
gives a little bit of the arm's reach.

02:16:13.784 --> 02:16:16.484
I could be a hundred percent off
base and being paranoid as I look

02:16:16.484 --> 02:16:20.790
at that, but that's, that's how
it reads to me because, um, Cause

02:16:20.800 --> 02:16:21.980
Rachel Athila: especially
when you're asked to provide

02:16:21.980 --> 02:16:23.280
names and conduct information.

02:16:23.280 --> 02:16:23.510
Right.

02:16:23.570 --> 02:16:23.960
Why?

02:16:24.000 --> 02:16:25.640
So you're soliciting someone else.

02:16:25.640 --> 02:16:27.630
And to me, I didn't feel
comfortable doing that.

02:16:27.650 --> 02:16:27.940
Travis Bader: Right.

02:16:28.170 --> 02:16:31.169
Rachel Athila: So when I answered mine,
Travis, I said, you know, part of my

02:16:31.169 --> 02:16:34.530
strategy will be to communicate with
local organizations and government

02:16:34.530 --> 02:16:39.349
officials as I further familiarize myself
with the area, you know, and, and I'll

02:16:39.399 --> 02:16:43.230
articulate what I'm finding and I will
also understand that it might be, you

02:16:43.230 --> 02:16:44.890
know, within a timely manner as well.

02:16:45.045 --> 02:16:46.645
You know, different parts of the season.

02:16:47.105 --> 02:16:50.845
That way, I, I didn't feel comfortable
putting down people's names.

02:16:50.965 --> 02:16:51.275
Travis Bader: No.

02:16:51.535 --> 02:16:53.685
Rachel Athila: Because I don't know what
questions they're going to ask and they

02:16:53.685 --> 02:16:54.955
don't know me and I don't know them.

02:16:54.965 --> 02:16:55.445
Travis Bader: That's it.

02:16:55.575 --> 02:16:56.015
So.

02:16:56.065 --> 02:16:57.595
But you will be asking, I mean, I mean.

02:16:57.605 --> 02:16:58.225
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:16:58.225 --> 02:17:00.004
Travis Bader: Do you do
due diligence and find out,

02:17:02.085 --> 02:17:05.304
I mean, what, what info that you're
going to ask now is going to have

02:17:05.455 --> 02:17:07.835
any consequence when you're out
there half a year later, right?

02:17:07.885 --> 02:17:08.485
Absolutely.

02:17:09.525 --> 02:17:13.105
Explain how you would safely carry your
handgun while working in this remote area.

02:17:13.670 --> 02:17:18.520
I say in accordance with the laws
that got a call back for you.

02:17:18.620 --> 02:17:18.860
I got

02:17:18.860 --> 02:17:19.400
Rachel Athila: a call back for me.

02:17:19.400 --> 02:17:20.620
It sure did.

02:17:20.630 --> 02:17:22.830
And it goes down to the
same thing as trapping.

02:17:22.850 --> 02:17:25.779
It has to be holstered on your
hip with a level of retention.

02:17:25.920 --> 02:17:26.200
Yeah.

02:17:26.659 --> 02:17:29.874
Travis Bader: And I think in a
more recent one, uh, put down, uh,

02:17:30.595 --> 02:17:34.975
Um, in an approved police issue
belt slash, uh, thigh holster.

02:17:35.465 --> 02:17:39.045
I took a path at that time, which
was if they're going to look at

02:17:39.045 --> 02:17:41.815
approving or denying certain types
of holsters, why don't I just pick a

02:17:41.815 --> 02:17:46.684
holster that's already been approved
for issue with police agencies.

02:17:46.894 --> 02:17:47.774
It was good for them.

02:17:47.835 --> 02:17:50.285
Surely it's good for somebody
working in a remote wilderness area.

02:17:50.825 --> 02:17:52.554
So they've got retention straps.

02:17:52.554 --> 02:17:52.713
It

02:17:52.713 --> 02:17:53.666
Rachel Athila: has to
meet all the requirements.

02:17:53.666 --> 02:17:53.984
That's it.

02:17:53.985 --> 02:17:54.355
Yeah.

02:17:55.025 --> 02:17:55.265
Absolutely.

02:17:55.285 --> 02:17:55.355
I

02:17:55.355 --> 02:17:56.885
Travis Bader: just so happen to
have a whole bunch of them kicking

02:17:56.885 --> 02:17:58.885
around, so it made life easy.

02:17:59.075 --> 02:17:59.805
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:18:00.115 --> 02:18:00.695
Travis Bader: Um,

02:18:02.725 --> 02:18:07.175
it says, explain how you'd safely
store, safely and securely store

02:18:07.175 --> 02:18:09.345
your handgun while working in
the remote wilderness area.

02:18:09.694 --> 02:18:11.764
So same as your answer for the
other one, I should imagine.

02:18:12.115 --> 02:18:16.034
Rachel Athila: Well, so this is store
your gun while working in the remote.

02:18:16.075 --> 02:18:18.765
So that's the trick question on this one.

02:18:19.184 --> 02:18:22.904
Is that obviously, you know, if you're
guiding, when you're traveling to and from

02:18:22.904 --> 02:18:26.095
the field, you have to be in accordance
with your ATT, your transportation.

02:18:27.110 --> 02:18:32.550
And that, I read, as it, at night, so
I go to the cabin, is this a grey area

02:18:32.550 --> 02:18:36.970
where it's like, technically, I'm storing
my firearm, you know, my handgun, while

02:18:36.970 --> 02:18:41.859
working in this remote area, so, you
know, with myself, I would probably

02:18:41.889 --> 02:18:47.210
take my opaque case, right, and my two
locks, transport them in, so that that

02:18:47.210 --> 02:18:49.330
way, I have my locking mechanisms.

02:18:49.380 --> 02:18:53.640
If I have to lock them up, like,
to me, this was a question that

02:18:53.640 --> 02:18:57.410
they could catch you up on if you
answered it with too much information.

02:18:59.650 --> 02:19:00.220
Travis Bader: How did you answer?

02:19:00.650 --> 02:19:02.539
Rachel Athila: I said, I would
store in accordance with the

02:19:02.539 --> 02:19:04.019
federal and provincial legislations.

02:19:04.180 --> 02:19:08.430
I did say that I would have my
transportation, my ATT regulation,

02:19:08.780 --> 02:19:12.730
um, equipment with me so that if I had
to store it for any period of time, I

02:19:12.730 --> 02:19:14.060
would be in accordance with the law.

02:19:14.380 --> 02:19:20.730
I did say that on my phone call, but,
um, Technically, if you're working in

02:19:20.730 --> 02:19:25.240
a remote trapline, You know, you're
opaque in your truck, in your console,

02:19:25.450 --> 02:19:28.210
you know, that's outside, outside,
out of sight, out of mind if it locks.

02:19:28.690 --> 02:19:34.670
So, and if you have to leave a restricted
firearm, you know, in a vehicle, you have

02:19:34.670 --> 02:19:36.520
to have it locked, double locked as well.

02:19:36.710 --> 02:19:36.850
Travis Bader: Yeah.

02:19:37.050 --> 02:19:38.829
So it says it's got to
be locked to the trunk.

02:19:38.829 --> 02:19:41.589
If a trunk is available, if no
trunk available, it's going to be.

02:19:41.670 --> 02:19:44.880
Locked in the vehicle, out of sight
with the vehicle locked, right?

02:19:44.880 --> 02:19:45.310
Exactly.

02:19:45.310 --> 02:19:46.220
So you still have to have

02:19:46.300 --> 02:19:47.810
Rachel Athila: multiple
mechanisms of locking.

02:19:48.000 --> 02:19:48.270
Travis Bader: Right.

02:19:48.290 --> 02:19:50.280
But he, you do raise a good point.

02:19:50.320 --> 02:19:54.750
Like what, what storage, I mean,
like take it to the silly degree.

02:19:54.870 --> 02:19:56.010
Well, I'm in a mobile home.

02:19:56.010 --> 02:19:57.700
Is this transferred as a storage, right?

02:19:57.700 --> 02:19:58.689
I live in a houseboat.

02:19:58.689 --> 02:20:00.040
Is it transferred as a storage?

02:20:00.589 --> 02:20:01.299
Um,

02:20:03.210 --> 02:20:06.130
Rachel Athila: The biggest catch up
was while working in this remote area.

02:20:06.140 --> 02:20:09.360
So for guides, foresters, and
everyone else, it's actually

02:20:09.360 --> 02:20:13.419
staying in a cabin where as a guide,
you have meat hanging outside.

02:20:13.430 --> 02:20:13.579
And you're

02:20:13.600 --> 02:20:14.200
Travis Bader: still working.

02:20:14.240 --> 02:20:15.230
You're still working.

02:20:15.249 --> 02:20:17.980
Just cause you're sleeping doesn't mean
you can't get woken up in the night.

02:20:17.980 --> 02:20:18.420
You're on call.

02:20:18.430 --> 02:20:19.170
But that's where the due

02:20:19.170 --> 02:20:22.080
Rachel Athila: diligence comes
in is obviously there has to be a

02:20:22.080 --> 02:20:23.640
level of awareness of around camp.

02:20:23.900 --> 02:20:26.930
It is up to you to make sure
that that firearm is in your

02:20:26.930 --> 02:20:28.260
line of sight on your hip.

02:20:28.430 --> 02:20:32.720
If it's not on your hip, I would take that
as a grey area that it needs to be stored.

02:20:32.789 --> 02:20:37.290
So, that's where for people that are
asking that question, um, because it

02:20:37.290 --> 02:20:40.809
did come up in a lot of the online
questions is, say I get approved for

02:20:40.809 --> 02:20:44.540
it, do I have to take all this stuff
with me when I go to the mountains?

02:20:44.845 --> 02:20:46.135
Travis Bader: Now, of
course, I'm on the spot.

02:20:46.145 --> 02:20:50.375
We don't have cell coverage where we're
at, but, um, I know in non restricted

02:20:50.375 --> 02:20:55.274
firearms, there is a section for,
uh, storage and they can be stored in

02:20:55.275 --> 02:20:59.115
contravention of the safe storage laws,
if it's going to be used relatively

02:20:59.115 --> 02:21:01.065
soon for predatory animals and the rest.

02:21:01.355 --> 02:21:04.024
I'm trying to remember if there's
something, I don't think it's in there

02:21:04.025 --> 02:21:05.445
for the restricted or prohibited.

02:21:05.755 --> 02:21:07.325
Rachel Athila: I can see
the page online myself.

02:21:07.585 --> 02:21:08.145
Yes.

02:21:08.175 --> 02:21:12.145
So maybe we'll put that in the
field notes, but that comes down to

02:21:12.175 --> 02:21:15.625
common sense, because if you live
in a remote area, I mean, obviously

02:21:15.625 --> 02:21:19.034
you're not, you're not storing it
unsafely, especially if there's

02:21:19.045 --> 02:21:20.405
children around or anything like that.

02:21:20.405 --> 02:21:22.625
But if you have attractants in
camp, you're waiting to get a

02:21:22.625 --> 02:21:24.085
plane out so that you got meat.

02:21:24.195 --> 02:21:27.145
I mean, that's where it comes
down to a due diligence side.

02:21:27.354 --> 02:21:30.615
Um, and when it comes to restricted
firearms, those are questions

02:21:30.625 --> 02:21:32.915
that be prepared to answer.

02:21:33.130 --> 02:21:37.840
Especially if you're going after your
wilderness ATC, um, and some supplementary

02:21:37.840 --> 02:21:41.010
information when we get back to service,
we'll definitely provide it, but.

02:21:41.020 --> 02:21:41.780
Travis Bader: Throw it in there.

02:21:41.960 --> 02:21:43.350
And what's, what's contravention?

02:21:43.460 --> 02:21:45.539
Contravention of the laws
could be a bunch of things.

02:21:45.819 --> 02:21:49.310
What I've seen it typically
mean is just unloaded.

02:21:49.885 --> 02:21:50.065
Yeah.

02:21:50.155 --> 02:21:57.295
Um, typically like having it loaded
would be in contravention, but typically

02:21:57.295 --> 02:22:00.335
what I've seen people come down to as
an understanding of a contravention

02:22:00.335 --> 02:22:04.544
would be is the gun's unloaded, but
it's ready for, for, for use if needed.

02:22:04.835 --> 02:22:05.035
Yeah.

02:22:05.234 --> 02:22:07.134
Um, okay.

02:22:10.895 --> 02:22:14.824
It says, uh, please include proof of
firearms and wilderness training that

02:22:14.824 --> 02:22:16.335
you've completed the past five years.

02:22:17.040 --> 02:22:19.500
Along with any other relevant training.

02:22:19.640 --> 02:22:23.100
And so people can fill
that out, sign it, date it.

02:22:24.520 --> 02:22:26.780
Rachel Athila: And you know what, in
that circumstance, the more the better.

02:22:26.849 --> 02:22:31.360
If you've had wilderness, um, you
know, industrial predator awareness,

02:22:31.389 --> 02:22:34.369
conflict management, you know, exactly.

02:22:34.369 --> 02:22:39.725
If you've got first aid, if you've
done any, uh, pistol or, um, you Long

02:22:39.725 --> 02:22:42.075
rifle training, private instruction.

02:22:42.085 --> 02:22:45.385
You know, if you're, I, I'm a registered
guide, so I put my registered guides

02:22:45.385 --> 02:22:51.405
license down, you know, any information
that shows that you are an industry

02:22:51.405 --> 02:22:53.345
field executive or professional,

02:22:53.775 --> 02:22:54.014
Travis Bader: put it

02:22:54.014 --> 02:22:54.335
Rachel Athila: in there.

02:22:55.665 --> 02:22:57.144
Travis Bader: Did you have questions?

02:22:57.464 --> 02:22:59.254
Cause I know we put some
stuff up on the internet.

02:22:59.255 --> 02:23:01.705
Did you have people asking you
questions that we haven't answered?

02:23:02.125 --> 02:23:04.955
Rachel Athila: So the biggest thing
that as we kind of worked through

02:23:04.955 --> 02:23:06.595
this is that people wanted to know.

02:23:07.135 --> 02:23:11.715
Can I get a firearm if I didn't buy
one or I'm still on the waiting list?

02:23:11.715 --> 02:23:12.005
Travis Bader: Yes.

02:23:12.045 --> 02:23:14.265
Rachel Athila: That was
number one question out of the

02:23:14.275 --> 02:23:15.505
three different rounds I did.

02:23:15.785 --> 02:23:16.135
Travis Bader: Yeah.

02:23:16.185 --> 02:23:21.325
So from anecdotally, oh,
sorry, allegedly all the rest.

02:23:21.664 --> 02:23:22.074
Yes.

02:23:22.930 --> 02:23:24.240
Rachel Athila: So how
can they go about that?

02:23:25.760 --> 02:23:26.720
Travis Bader: That's a damn good question.

02:23:26.720 --> 02:23:34.050
Um, so there still will be
businesses that have firearms.

02:23:34.069 --> 02:23:36.119
Not all the businesses got
rid of all their firearms.

02:23:36.120 --> 02:23:37.499
So those are still available.

02:23:37.500 --> 02:23:41.339
Those still will be individuals
who have restricted, uh, have

02:23:41.340 --> 02:23:45.069
handguns, cause it's not a restricted
firearm, uh, ban or freeze.

02:23:45.069 --> 02:23:46.419
It's simply a handgun.

02:23:46.770 --> 02:23:54.510
Um, I have seen people
importing from the States.

02:23:54.690 --> 02:23:56.560
Businesses have imported from the States.

02:23:57.390 --> 02:24:01.280
I have heard of individuals
doing that for work reasons.

02:24:01.320 --> 02:24:03.800
I haven't seen that personally,
but I have heard that.

02:24:04.350 --> 02:24:09.080
Um, but there are, there are still
provisions of protocol because they

02:24:09.080 --> 02:24:11.620
can't deny you the ability to go
out there and protect your life.

02:24:11.700 --> 02:24:12.400
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:24:12.540 --> 02:24:12.830
Travis Bader: Um,

02:24:16.585 --> 02:24:19.705
Rachel Athila: We're remaining hopeful,
ever hopeful, but I think that was,

02:24:20.305 --> 02:24:24.005
some of the other questions came down
to, are there training opportunities

02:24:24.005 --> 02:24:29.155
for first time, you know, for people
that might own a handgun, you know, uh,

02:24:29.245 --> 02:24:32.365
Silvercore, I know has a lot of great
opportunities for learning, whether that's

02:24:32.365 --> 02:24:37.835
classroom online, is there somewhere
that they can go to get training To

02:24:37.835 --> 02:24:39.285
make them a more proficient shooter.

02:24:40.075 --> 02:24:43.115
Travis Bader: Uh, well, clearly I'm going
to plug Silvercore because we do that.

02:24:43.315 --> 02:24:47.714
Um, but honestly, there, there's a
lot of good places that you can go to.

02:24:47.714 --> 02:24:51.125
There's a lot of qualified
people across the country.

02:24:51.265 --> 02:24:55.474
Um, look, look for positive Google
reviews, not people who are given

02:24:55.474 --> 02:24:58.605
paying passes and shuffling them
through quickly, but for the people

02:24:58.605 --> 02:25:03.245
that the, um, uh, I mean, I guess those
can get positive Google reviews too,

02:25:03.505 --> 02:25:04.815
that you can read between the lines.

02:25:05.390 --> 02:25:07.250
And then going into the States as well.

02:25:07.350 --> 02:25:09.610
I mean, everyone and their
dogs got a gun in the States.

02:25:09.630 --> 02:25:12.800
Marty Hayes Firearms Academy of
Seattle is a good one close for

02:25:12.800 --> 02:25:14.460
people who are near the border.

02:25:14.650 --> 02:25:16.900
The SIG Academy, fantastic training.

02:25:17.020 --> 02:25:21.350
Um, done, done lots of work
with their counterparts up

02:25:21.350 --> 02:25:22.799
here and you've done as well.

02:25:22.999 --> 02:25:29.805
Um, Yeah, I've been through at Smyrna,
Georgia with Glock and, uh, Springfield,

02:25:29.805 --> 02:25:32.725
Massachusetts, although I guess
they've moved now, Smith and Wesson,

02:25:32.735 --> 02:25:38.715
um, but there's lots of, if you, if
you're doing the training, uh, getting

02:25:38.715 --> 02:25:43.739
it from a reputable source would be
preferred, but not always the case.

02:25:44.150 --> 02:25:47.980
Not always practicable, depending on
where you live and what's available.

02:25:48.230 --> 02:25:48.840
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:25:49.250 --> 02:25:52.780
Um, another big question, uh,
especially because you guys do so much

02:25:52.780 --> 02:25:57.819
with handgun proficiency, revolver
versus, um, the pistol with the

02:25:57.819 --> 02:26:00.179
removable, uh, magazine like myself,

02:26:00.889 --> 02:26:02.230
Travis Bader: I'd say, what do you have?

02:26:02.260 --> 02:26:03.784
Number one, but yeah, in Canada, what do

02:26:03.784 --> 02:26:04.070
Rachel Athila: you have?

02:26:04.070 --> 02:26:04.380
What do you have?

02:26:04.380 --> 02:26:04.740
Right.

02:26:04.970 --> 02:26:07.720
Travis Bader: But, but number
two, uh, I go semi auto.

02:26:07.840 --> 02:26:08.090
Rachel Athila: Yeah.

02:26:08.200 --> 02:26:12.230
Travis Bader: Uh, and I go semi auto
because damn they're robust, right?

02:26:12.240 --> 02:26:12.830
They are.

02:26:12.890 --> 02:26:13.650
I don't have to like.

02:26:14.195 --> 02:26:16.865
Uh, SIG makes amazing stuff, right?

02:26:17.335 --> 02:26:21.165
Uh, and I've got a number of glocks
that I use that have been through

02:26:21.165 --> 02:26:23.044
hell and back and they still go bang.

02:26:23.155 --> 02:26:27.365
I've, I've seen these things work with
major components broken on them and they

02:26:27.385 --> 02:26:29.915
just keep plugging away a polymer frame.

02:26:29.915 --> 02:26:30.605
Kind of nice.

02:26:30.875 --> 02:26:34.355
Rachel Athila: One thing I really
like how easy they are to reload.

02:26:34.740 --> 02:26:35.150
Sure.

02:26:35.390 --> 02:26:36.110
That's one thing.

02:26:36.120 --> 02:26:38.560
You drop the magazine, you put
another in, you know, when you have

02:26:38.560 --> 02:26:42.440
a revolver, there's, there, there
are cute little ways that you can

02:26:42.450 --> 02:26:46.500
easily reload, but for safety, I
thought I would be a revolver person.

02:26:47.030 --> 02:26:49.390
That was changed the moment
I put a sig in my hand.

02:26:50.300 --> 02:26:54.260
Travis Bader: The idea that you're going
to be in some protracted sort of thing and

02:26:54.260 --> 02:26:58.200
shooting and then reloading and shooting
and reloading and going through, typically

02:26:58.200 --> 02:27:01.390
you're, Using what you have in the firearm
and hopefully that's going to be it.

02:27:01.540 --> 02:27:01.820
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:27:02.880 --> 02:27:05.930
Worst case Ontario, you want to
be able to have another magazine.

02:27:06.310 --> 02:27:06.790
Yes.

02:27:07.209 --> 02:27:10.879
Travis Bader: Um, but yeah, the
semi autos do interject a couple

02:27:10.879 --> 02:27:13.710
other things that you need to know
from a training standpoint, right.

02:27:13.959 --> 02:27:17.169
How you hold it's going to
change how it cycles, ammunition

02:27:17.169 --> 02:27:18.499
is going to feed differently.

02:27:18.849 --> 02:27:24.310
Um, you have to know how to clear
some basic stoppages or, or jams with

02:27:24.310 --> 02:27:26.759
it, but it's not like you don't have
to think about some of these things.

02:27:26.955 --> 02:27:28.695
With a revolver as well.

02:27:29.195 --> 02:27:34.025
And it's just the lightweight, the
robustness, the corrosion resistance,

02:27:34.315 --> 02:27:38.325
and the added rounds, the extra rounds
that you have, because maybe you're out

02:27:38.325 --> 02:27:45.794
there in a, in the middle of nowhere and
you have to use it and you're coming home

02:27:45.795 --> 02:27:46.954
and you find you have to use it again.

02:27:46.954 --> 02:27:46.984
Right?

02:27:47.164 --> 02:27:50.305
Like worst case scenario, isn't it nice
to have more rounds and not enough?

02:27:50.355 --> 02:27:50.825
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:27:51.125 --> 02:27:53.015
Now in Canada, we are
under certain restriction.

02:27:53.670 --> 02:27:54.390
For magazine capability.

02:27:54.980 --> 02:27:55.530
Absolutely.

02:27:55.720 --> 02:27:57.420
But with my 9, I know I have 10.

02:27:57.470 --> 02:27:59.290
With my 10 millimeter, I have 8.

02:27:59.580 --> 02:28:04.960
And you know, my 45 70 that I used to
carry, I could fit four down the barrel.

02:28:05.850 --> 02:28:08.089
So it's like, you know, when you
looked at the practicality of it

02:28:08.089 --> 02:28:09.640
too, like you said, more ammunition.

02:28:10.140 --> 02:28:15.930
Um, another big question was, um,
Is, when a person goes after their

02:28:15.950 --> 02:28:21.660
ATC and we did touch on it, is
there a way to communicate with an

02:28:21.660 --> 02:28:25.180
officer to find out if they qualify?

02:28:25.570 --> 02:28:27.679
Because there's a lot of people
that say, well, I work remotely,

02:28:27.899 --> 02:28:30.219
you know, I might be a geologist.

02:28:30.310 --> 02:28:33.220
Does this, you know,
does this work for me?

02:28:33.269 --> 02:28:37.220
You know, how can people find if
they actually meet the criteria?

02:28:37.220 --> 02:28:40.660
Because when you look at it, if
you work remote wilderness, you

02:28:40.660 --> 02:28:41.660
have to protect your own life.

02:28:41.670 --> 02:28:42.530
Travis Bader: What's remote wilderness?

02:28:42.679 --> 02:28:43.259
Wilderness.

02:28:43.905 --> 02:28:45.445
Rachel Athila: Well, it
depends for everyone else.

02:28:45.465 --> 02:28:45.685
Right.

02:28:45.695 --> 02:28:46.715
So remote wilderness

02:28:46.715 --> 02:28:49.545
Travis Bader: for you might be different
for somebody in the lower mainland, right?

02:28:49.555 --> 02:28:50.215
Absolutely.

02:28:50.485 --> 02:28:52.575
So what exactly is remote wilderness?

02:28:53.675 --> 02:28:57.365
So that, that's the question I'll put out
there for people to opine on themselves.

02:28:57.795 --> 02:29:04.515
And the other one is, uh, So, uh,
it says professional occupation.

02:29:04.835 --> 02:29:07.025
So it's not just, Oh, I'm
just working on my roof.

02:29:07.025 --> 02:29:07.285
Right.

02:29:07.285 --> 02:29:10.404
But if you can tie that into your
professional occupation, like I'm

02:29:10.415 --> 02:29:11.965
sitting, I'm working on the fence.

02:29:12.005 --> 02:29:12.215
Right.

02:29:12.234 --> 02:29:14.845
That's a part of my professional
occupation as it applies

02:29:14.845 --> 02:29:15.565
to what you're doing.

02:29:16.295 --> 02:29:24.715
Um, the firearms program will ask you
to provide you with, uh, a letter from

02:29:24.725 --> 02:29:29.425
your city or municipality saying that,
uh, you're licensed to work in that area.

02:29:29.485 --> 02:29:30.334
And I say.

02:29:31.310 --> 02:29:34.840
What does, I live in Delta, what
does at that time, the corporation

02:29:34.840 --> 02:29:39.079
of Delta, now the city of Delta,
have to do with my work in remote

02:29:39.079 --> 02:29:40.570
wilderness areas outside of Delta?

02:29:40.570 --> 02:29:42.400
They said, Oh no, no, we need to get this.

02:29:42.400 --> 02:29:43.419
I said, okay, fair enough.

02:29:43.420 --> 02:29:47.479
So I talked to them and they say, we
don't have any authority over these

02:29:47.480 --> 02:29:50.260
areas, but no, I've got it in writing.

02:29:50.289 --> 02:29:53.590
It's satisfied the firearms
program and set that one forward.

02:29:53.870 --> 02:29:54.060
Yeah.

02:29:54.060 --> 02:29:54.430
So.

02:29:55.760 --> 02:29:59.620
I wouldn't advise people to contact the
firearms program to ask if they qualify.

02:29:59.870 --> 02:30:01.810
I don't want a binary yes or no.

02:30:02.140 --> 02:30:04.920
I know that if I'm working in
the remote wilderness area.

02:30:09.075 --> 02:30:09.775
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:30:10.135 --> 02:30:12.635
I'm just looking through a bunch
of the questions here is, you know,

02:30:12.705 --> 02:30:15.674
I think we covered, where do I
start for the wilderness permit?

02:30:15.995 --> 02:30:18.894
Um, and the biggest thing is
you can go online in Canada

02:30:19.235 --> 02:30:21.165
and that's nat that's national.

02:30:21.445 --> 02:30:21.545
Travis Bader: Yep.

02:30:21.685 --> 02:30:23.675
Rachel Athila: Um, and that's your 5491E.

02:30:23.835 --> 02:30:23.905
Travis Bader: Yep.

02:30:24.274 --> 02:30:25.965
Rachel Athila: And I would submit that.

02:30:26.305 --> 02:30:28.815
Obviously, um, I don't know if
you have yours in front of me.

02:30:28.815 --> 02:30:29.415
I've got mine.

02:30:29.425 --> 02:30:35.119
You have to have for that
particular form, um, um, a permit.

02:30:36.040 --> 02:30:37.840
You have to have your
firearms license number.

02:30:38.000 --> 02:30:41.230
You obviously have to be able to say
whether this is a new or a renewal.

02:30:41.690 --> 02:30:45.935
Um, If you have an employer, there's
a certain section for that as well.

02:30:46.325 --> 02:30:51.735
Um, there are certain circumstances,
you know, for mine, I, there's two

02:30:51.735 --> 02:30:54.704
different sections, applicant works in
remote wilderness, firearms are required

02:30:54.704 --> 02:30:58.774
to protect of his or her life or the
lives of others from wild animals.

02:30:59.104 --> 02:31:03.225
Um, they give a few different and you
can check a few of them that apply.

02:31:04.005 --> 02:31:07.395
So, I mean, I checked the applicant is
engaged in the age of trapping in the

02:31:07.395 --> 02:31:11.755
province and the territory, knowing what
I know now, I could have checked all

02:31:11.755 --> 02:31:14.345
the boxes because I do all the boxes.

02:31:14.405 --> 02:31:14.705
Travis Bader: Right.

02:31:14.744 --> 02:31:18.074
I think your concern, if I
recall correctly, was, I don't

02:31:18.074 --> 02:31:20.795
want to delay this even further.

02:31:20.844 --> 02:31:21.264
Rachel Athila: That's correct.

02:31:21.274 --> 02:31:22.475
That's why we went after trapping.

02:31:22.485 --> 02:31:22.745
Travis Bader: Right.

02:31:22.935 --> 02:31:26.425
So, and I need it now, and it's
been so long that it's taken.

02:31:26.875 --> 02:31:31.975
And now this, you're right,
federal form, provincially applied.

02:31:32.145 --> 02:31:35.145
Some provinces have got this
dialed in and they understand it.

02:31:35.165 --> 02:31:39.884
Other provinces, you're going to have
personalities and option individuals.

02:31:39.895 --> 02:31:40.964
Sorry, Nova Scotia.

02:31:41.404 --> 02:31:42.154
Um,

02:31:42.825 --> 02:31:44.245
Rachel Athila: Alberta
is nicer and easier.

02:31:44.675 --> 02:31:45.045
Travis Bader: Right.

02:31:45.395 --> 02:31:49.355
So, uh, just, just from my own
personal dealings of different firearms

02:31:49.355 --> 02:31:54.645
officers and, uh, different offices,
I know that some are going to be an

02:31:54.645 --> 02:31:56.755
easier road for you, some are going
to be a little bit more difficult.

02:31:57.494 --> 02:31:58.124
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:31:58.135 --> 02:32:01.224
And one thing I will say, um, there's
a few questions that came through on

02:32:01.224 --> 02:32:07.480
Instagram asking, you know, Once I've
started the process, how do I, what's

02:32:07.480 --> 02:32:09.650
the appropriate time to follow up?

02:32:10.250 --> 02:32:12.500
So, obviously that's personal dependent.

02:32:12.540 --> 02:32:15.969
I mean, I, I did go after
the wilderness trapping side.

02:32:16.280 --> 02:32:20.140
Specific to trapping, because I was coming
into December, November, and I wanted

02:32:20.140 --> 02:32:21.540
to get out there as fast as I could.

02:32:22.020 --> 02:32:25.470
Um, obviously I still
had months in the making.

02:32:25.710 --> 02:32:30.300
So now coming into my prep season, I
can now carry legally and lawfully.

02:32:30.680 --> 02:32:33.539
Um, another thing I'll say
is document everything.

02:32:34.130 --> 02:32:37.340
When I submitted everything, I put
a sticky note, submit it on this

02:32:37.350 --> 02:32:40.980
time, you know, and, um, Uh, I gave
it a week and a half, two weeks the

02:32:40.980 --> 02:32:42.670
first time, and then I followed up.

02:32:43.290 --> 02:32:47.990
Concisely, politely, time,
time is of the essence.

02:32:48.760 --> 02:32:51.020
Travis Bader: So what's an
appropriate time to follow up?

02:32:51.569 --> 02:32:54.920
I don't like entering into
something without knowing what that

02:32:54.920 --> 02:32:56.350
timeframe looks like to begin with.

02:32:56.520 --> 02:32:58.249
I know I need it for this certain time.

02:32:58.629 --> 02:33:00.380
That's my timeframe between here and now.

02:33:00.480 --> 02:33:00.700
Right.

02:33:00.700 --> 02:33:03.980
So if I need it next week,
I'm following up every day.

02:33:04.140 --> 02:33:04.340
Right.

02:33:04.390 --> 02:33:04.580
Right.

02:33:04.580 --> 02:33:06.730
If I need it tomorrow, I'm
following up every hour.

02:33:06.779 --> 02:33:06.989
Right.

02:33:07.489 --> 02:33:09.880
If I need it in four months from now.

02:33:09.935 --> 02:33:14.885
I'll say, I'll call them up and I'll
say, what's an appropriate time.

02:33:14.885 --> 02:33:16.375
When can I expect to have the spy?

02:33:16.425 --> 02:33:20.015
I'm going to be calling and following up
on these days or emailing on these days.

02:33:20.505 --> 02:33:26.035
So I usually try to have that
timeframe, timeframe specified.

02:33:26.384 --> 02:33:28.775
So the firearms officer
isn't caught off guard.

02:33:28.775 --> 02:33:30.795
Maybe they've got a pile of work
that they have to go through

02:33:30.795 --> 02:33:32.135
and mine's just on the pile.

02:33:32.715 --> 02:33:32.989
It doesn't really matter.

02:33:33.140 --> 02:33:36.530
But they look at it and
it's low priority stuff.

02:33:36.540 --> 02:33:37.950
And they just think yours is in there.

02:33:37.990 --> 02:33:42.379
It used to be that they'd give you a
purple envelope, different businesses

02:33:42.379 --> 02:33:45.730
would get a purple envelope and that
they would fast track an application

02:33:45.730 --> 02:33:46.850
that came in a purple envelope.

02:33:47.280 --> 02:33:51.359
Then it was, if you write for employment
on your, uh, your paperwork that goes

02:33:51.359 --> 02:33:53.480
in, you're going to get a fast track.

02:33:54.160 --> 02:33:57.000
Now everyone's basically at the same rate.

02:33:58.170 --> 02:34:03.100
But I've seen things go through in
like grease lightning, if the firearms

02:34:03.100 --> 02:34:06.480
officer knows that there's a need for
it and there is a timeframe that it's.

02:34:06.510 --> 02:34:08.860
Rachel Athila: Because like you said
earlier, they're held accountable

02:34:09.200 --> 02:34:14.729
if they had, in a way, allegedly,
allegedly, if you have done everything,

02:34:14.739 --> 02:34:19.565
you have submitted your application
and you are trying to use it to, To

02:34:19.565 --> 02:34:21.545
protect your life in your occupation.

02:34:23.955 --> 02:34:25.605
Oh, God forbid something happens.

02:34:25.625 --> 02:34:27.625
I mean, there is a bit of a precedence.

02:34:28.005 --> 02:34:30.625
You've, you've jumped through
all the hoops and you are there,

02:34:30.655 --> 02:34:31.974
you are waiting for an answer.

02:34:32.415 --> 02:34:34.245
Travis Bader: And that
accountability goes both ways.

02:34:34.554 --> 02:34:34.584
Right?

02:34:34.585 --> 02:34:37.044
So they're held accountable
if they say yes.

02:34:37.085 --> 02:34:38.575
Why did you give this person the gun?

02:34:38.614 --> 02:34:41.835
Clearly they're mentally unstable and they
did all these bad things and they're all

02:34:41.835 --> 02:34:43.395
through, all over the internet, right?

02:34:43.395 --> 02:34:44.553
And all through the media.

02:34:44.553 --> 02:34:46.406
Why didn't you give this person?

02:34:46.406 --> 02:34:50.729
No is typically the easier answer for
most people and most civil servants to.

02:34:50.970 --> 02:34:56.520
Give, uh, because they feel like
it gives them greater control.

02:34:56.610 --> 02:35:00.279
Chris Voss has got that, he's
that FBI negotiator that's

02:35:00.300 --> 02:35:01.419
never split the difference.

02:35:01.899 --> 02:35:04.960
And he's a guy who that really pushes,
he says, I'm so tired of hearing

02:35:04.960 --> 02:35:09.580
people trying to get yes answers
out of, uh, people that's an old.

02:35:09.805 --> 02:35:13.195
False way of thinking, get no
answers and no oriented questions.

02:35:13.555 --> 02:35:16.655
I say, apply that to dealing
with a firearms officer.

02:35:16.955 --> 02:35:22.805
Is there any reason why you can't
issue this in the next three days?

02:35:23.864 --> 02:35:24.455
Well, no.

02:35:24.855 --> 02:35:25.175
Right.

02:35:25.784 --> 02:35:28.045
How'd that no answer work in your favor?

02:35:28.335 --> 02:35:28.605
Yeah.

02:35:28.894 --> 02:35:32.794
Uh, is there any reason why the
information I provide you would not?

02:35:33.415 --> 02:35:36.305
Uh, it would fall short
of being acceptable.

02:35:37.185 --> 02:35:38.885
We'll know, right?

02:35:38.885 --> 02:35:41.565
The second you get them to
say, well, yes, on this one.

02:35:41.885 --> 02:35:42.925
Okay, what?

02:35:43.215 --> 02:35:46.295
And now they're wearing it again
and the onus is on them in order

02:35:46.295 --> 02:35:49.755
to be able to, they're going to
have to defend that decision.

02:35:50.005 --> 02:35:50.225
Yeah.

02:35:50.745 --> 02:35:54.835
So that, that would be more
of the approach that I take.

02:35:55.095 --> 02:36:01.504
It's not about tricking people and there's
also the, um, tacit approval, which may

02:36:01.504 --> 02:36:03.244
or may not work for some people too.

02:36:03.924 --> 02:36:07.635
So I am going out and I'm
carrying my handgun and.

02:36:08.130 --> 02:36:10.730
I'm going to be doing it
on this day and this time.

02:36:10.770 --> 02:36:12.660
I've provided you all of the information.

02:36:12.870 --> 02:36:17.850
Unless you provide me some information or
reason why I can't do that, or that would

02:36:17.860 --> 02:36:19.710
be unlawful, I will be taking it out.

02:36:20.780 --> 02:36:23.240
Rachel Athila: And I think we actually
might've gone that way, Travis,

02:36:23.240 --> 02:36:26.609
with my particular application,
because it had been prolonged.

02:36:26.610 --> 02:36:32.720
I was at the end of trapping season and
It wasn't until I had put a timeline on it

02:36:32.720 --> 02:36:35.750
saying, look, like I, my partner was gone.

02:36:35.780 --> 02:36:40.680
I'm going to be out on the snow
machine and I, I, I have intention.

02:36:41.000 --> 02:36:44.690
I will be going to check my
traps at this time, you know?

02:36:45.220 --> 02:36:48.880
Is this going to be permissible or no?

02:36:48.890 --> 02:36:49.670
How did I say that?

02:36:49.690 --> 02:36:50.290
Um,

02:36:50.360 --> 02:36:52.870
Travis Bader: is this permissible
is still waiting for a yes or

02:36:52.930 --> 02:36:54.460
no, because if they don't answer.

02:36:54.749 --> 02:36:54.889
What

02:36:54.890 --> 02:36:55.550
Rachel Athila: did we say?

02:36:55.980 --> 02:36:56.180
Travis Bader: Right.

02:36:56.280 --> 02:36:58.690
Unless you tell me otherwise,
I won't be doing this.

02:36:58.760 --> 02:36:59.040
Rachel Athila: Yes.

02:36:59.060 --> 02:37:00.050
Unless you tell me otherwise.

02:37:00.050 --> 02:37:02.330
We use some, we use some
wordage to that point.

02:37:02.590 --> 02:37:07.115
And unfortunately it was until that
time that I kept getting stagmented and

02:37:07.115 --> 02:37:10.830
stagmented in my application because
it was several weeks and several months

02:37:10.910 --> 02:37:13.270
and then all of a sudden come March.

02:37:13.575 --> 02:37:17.135
The beginning of March, almost all the
way through my trapping season, that's

02:37:17.135 --> 02:37:20.625
when I got the call saying, by the way,
we have a problem with your application.

02:37:20.865 --> 02:37:22.275
You have a prohibited firearm.

02:37:22.395 --> 02:37:22.665
Travis Bader: Right.

02:37:22.674 --> 02:37:24.894
Because they've realized what happens.

02:37:25.205 --> 02:37:28.345
They've, I guess, number
one, they can ignore it.

02:37:28.764 --> 02:37:31.354
Like that's, if they really don't
want to give it to you, that's

02:37:31.364 --> 02:37:32.394
probably their best option.

02:37:32.925 --> 02:37:34.545
And I've seen denial.

02:37:35.015 --> 02:37:39.845
Of, uh, licenses and authorizations
and certificates, certificates

02:37:40.325 --> 02:37:48.125
through, um, what's the term refusal
through, uh, just not engagement.

02:37:48.165 --> 02:37:49.465
Basically they just ignore it.

02:37:49.474 --> 02:37:50.605
They figured this will go away.

02:37:50.615 --> 02:37:52.234
And then your only recourse is to, to.

02:37:54.535 --> 02:37:56.015
And even then, that's not the best one.

02:37:56.125 --> 02:37:59.375
Honestly, a better recourse before
then it's go to the media because the

02:37:59.375 --> 02:38:04.535
courts aren't set up in a way to hold
the, uh, firearms office accountable

02:38:04.615 --> 02:38:06.554
just based on how it's, it's set up.

02:38:06.945 --> 02:38:08.324
We can talk about that
in a different podcast.

02:38:08.335 --> 02:38:09.015
Absolutely.

02:38:09.055 --> 02:38:17.260
But, but there is, uh, a massive
public interest here if we have, a

02:38:17.270 --> 02:38:20.910
body that's out there that is actively
denying individuals from being able to

02:38:20.910 --> 02:38:25.369
protect themselves in situations where
they need to carry this, this handgun.

02:38:25.460 --> 02:38:27.920
It's, it's a lawful legal
thing to be able to do.

02:38:27.949 --> 02:38:31.390
So if they come back and say,
yeah, no, you can't do that.

02:38:31.520 --> 02:38:34.710
Uh, we're going to just drag
her feet some longer, it's going

02:38:34.710 --> 02:38:35.810
to look pretty bad on them.

02:38:36.250 --> 02:38:37.090
And they're now wearing that.

02:38:37.090 --> 02:38:39.590
If something happens to you and
you go out there and you get hurt.

02:38:40.600 --> 02:38:46.100
Um, so sometimes going that tacit route,
I wouldn't go there right off the bat.

02:38:46.140 --> 02:38:46.860
Rachel Athila: Hopefully not.

02:38:46.950 --> 02:38:47.240
Right.

02:38:47.240 --> 02:38:50.250
You know, worst case,
you know, but, uh, yeah.

02:38:50.260 --> 02:38:51.690
So that, that's a great answer.

02:38:51.920 --> 02:38:59.360
Um, one of the other questions was,
and I mean, are they still offering non

02:38:59.360 --> 02:39:02.850
restricted courses because of the freeze?

02:39:02.940 --> 02:39:07.190
A lot of people have seen a
retardation of the courses.

02:39:07.705 --> 02:39:09.485
Or sorry, let me, let's rephrase that.

02:39:10.125 --> 02:39:12.615
Okay, cut to the editor,
cut to the last stage.

02:39:12.795 --> 02:39:14.015
So let me rephrase the
question, start again.

02:39:14.505 --> 02:39:18.175
So a lot of people are wondering,
are there still courses being

02:39:18.185 --> 02:39:19.935
offered for restricted permits?

02:39:19.965 --> 02:39:24.244
Because of the freeze, people maybe
haven't seen them as often, or they're

02:39:24.244 --> 02:39:27.015
not as popular because people are
hanging on the fence of, well, why

02:39:27.015 --> 02:39:30.250
would I get this if We obviously
can't purchase a new firearm.

02:39:30.540 --> 02:39:33.490
Travis Bader: So you can actually
purchase restricted firearms.

02:39:33.550 --> 02:39:35.660
There is no restricted firearm freeze.

02:39:35.740 --> 02:39:40.290
There's a handgun freeze, and that's
where a lot of people get, uh, tied up.

02:39:40.880 --> 02:39:46.289
You also have, uh, businesses that will
have restricted firearms working in

02:39:46.289 --> 02:39:50.170
the film industry, working in armored
car industry, working in, there's

02:39:50.190 --> 02:39:54.010
a lot of different industries that
will need, uh, a restricted firearm.

02:39:54.385 --> 02:39:57.435
Trapping, guiding, free mining.

02:39:57.445 --> 02:39:59.915
Like there's, it's a
legitimate employment reason.

02:40:00.365 --> 02:40:04.045
So, uh, a hundred percent,
get the restricted.

02:40:04.415 --> 02:40:07.544
I would tell absolutely everybody,
if you're putting the time in to do

02:40:07.544 --> 02:40:10.855
the course, do non restricted and
restricted all at the same time.

02:40:11.235 --> 02:40:15.830
The reason being is we're going to We
don't know what's going to happen in 2025.

02:40:16.090 --> 02:40:17.520
It's easier to do it all at once.

02:40:17.530 --> 02:40:19.120
It's less time to do it.

02:40:19.220 --> 02:40:23.490
The minimum time requirements
are less if you're doing both of

02:40:23.490 --> 02:40:24.989
them within a certain timeframe.

02:40:25.460 --> 02:40:28.030
And you don't know what the
future is going to hold.

02:40:28.030 --> 02:40:31.570
Maybe your semi automatic rifles are
going to go on a restricted list.

02:40:31.840 --> 02:40:34.169
Maybe, and now you're licensed, right?

02:40:34.179 --> 02:40:37.289
So I would get maximum licensing you can.

02:40:38.449 --> 02:40:41.759
There's nothing wrong with having a
little bit more knowledge aside from

02:40:41.759 --> 02:40:43.110
the little bit more money than it costs.

02:40:43.750 --> 02:40:44.410
Um,

02:40:45.620 --> 02:40:46.110
Rachel Athila: 100

02:40:46.110 --> 02:40:46.400
Travis Bader: percent I'd

02:40:46.400 --> 02:40:46.689
Rachel Athila: do it.

02:40:46.690 --> 02:40:49.930
So the last question that I've got
here, and it had a lot of hits on it,

02:40:51.460 --> 02:40:54.530
stupid proof it as far as the process.

02:40:54.599 --> 02:41:00.260
So we are starting, I mean, if we could
put it as ABCD, that would be easiest.

02:41:00.290 --> 02:41:01.910
Travis Bader: I don't think
we can stupid proof it.

02:41:02.150 --> 02:41:02.360
Rachel Athila: No.

02:41:02.439 --> 02:41:02.729
Travis Bader: No.

02:41:02.810 --> 02:41:06.660
And I, the reason I don't think we
can stupid proof it is because of the

02:41:06.660 --> 02:41:08.830
fact that we have that human factor.

02:41:09.430 --> 02:41:14.450
Um, If people want to understand my
thoughts anyways, on the human factor

02:41:14.450 --> 02:41:17.300
and what I've seen work, they'd have
to listen to the entirety of this

02:41:17.320 --> 02:41:27.550
podcast, go to the firearms program
website, get your form 5491E, read

02:41:27.559 --> 02:41:28.860
through the requirements on there.

02:41:29.065 --> 02:41:34.075
Read the Firearms Act regulations as
it applies to authorizations to carry

02:41:34.775 --> 02:41:40.685
and see that you actually meet those
requirements that you're working and

02:41:40.685 --> 02:41:42.094
it's in a remote wilderness area.

02:41:42.735 --> 02:41:43.985
Rachel Athila: Key on working.

02:41:44.044 --> 02:41:44.344
Travis Bader: Right.

02:41:45.015 --> 02:41:50.464
Do your proof of proficiency training
as outlined, put your application in.

02:41:51.515 --> 02:41:55.685
Um, that would be the
fastest, easiest way to do it.

02:41:55.985 --> 02:41:58.774
You can also call them up and get the
questionnaire ahead of time and just

02:41:58.774 --> 02:41:59.995
say, Hey, I want the questionnaire.

02:41:59.995 --> 02:42:00.604
I'm going to fill it out.

02:42:00.604 --> 02:42:04.944
I'm going to put it through, uh, ask
for an email address that you can

02:42:04.945 --> 02:42:06.735
send it to rather than mailing it.

02:42:06.735 --> 02:42:09.875
If you're mailing it, send it by certified
mail so that you've got some sort of

02:42:10.185 --> 02:42:10.735
Rachel Athila: tracking

02:42:10.765 --> 02:42:17.705
Travis Bader: and record of delivery
receipt signed for, um, emails easier,

02:42:18.460 --> 02:42:21.840
Easy to copy, easy to have it, and, uh.

02:42:21.870 --> 02:42:22.000
You can

02:42:22.000 --> 02:42:22.940
Rachel Athila: access it anywhere.

02:42:23.270 --> 02:42:23.570
Travis Bader: Yeah.

02:42:24.430 --> 02:42:27.280
And then follow up, put that
timeframe on it and follow up.

02:42:27.330 --> 02:42:28.320
Rachel Athila: The biggest thing is.

02:42:28.770 --> 02:42:32.070
You can do all those steps, but it's
on you at the end of the day, it's

02:42:32.070 --> 02:42:35.930
on you to practice, it's on you to
shoot your pop, it's on you to follow

02:42:35.930 --> 02:42:37.890
up, they don't owe you anything.

02:42:37.990 --> 02:42:38.500
Travis Bader: Not at all.

02:42:38.600 --> 02:42:40.859
Rachel Athila: And that's the
biggest thing, that's why I stuck

02:42:40.859 --> 02:42:45.389
through it and it was hard and it
was frustrating at a lot of times.

02:42:45.645 --> 02:42:49.825
And it took a lot longer than I
thought, but the process really

02:42:49.825 --> 02:42:52.025
made me appreciate the opportunity.

02:42:52.685 --> 02:42:57.684
And for those people that they qualify for
it, you will hold it in that much more of

02:42:57.685 --> 02:43:03.534
a regard when you actually are successful,
because at the end of the day, as someone

02:43:03.534 --> 02:43:09.085
who's licensed with both ATC wilderness
and trapping, I am, I mean, as a guide and

02:43:09.085 --> 02:43:12.205
as a professional in the industry, one,
I was always very super cognizant of it.

02:43:12.745 --> 02:43:16.065
Now, even more so, my
actions are being watched.

02:43:16.420 --> 02:43:19.840
And I take pride in the
process that I've gone through.

02:43:20.220 --> 02:43:22.590
Because it also, it sets
the stage for everyone else.

02:43:22.910 --> 02:43:24.720
I don't want to screw
up and ruin it for you.

02:43:24.720 --> 02:43:29.190
And I think that's the biggest thing is
that you, you have to take it serious.

02:43:29.939 --> 02:43:32.470
And at the end of anything,
you have to take it serious.

02:43:32.470 --> 02:43:35.430
You have to give it the
respect for the process.

02:43:35.750 --> 02:43:40.120
Um, Cause yes, as much as it is a legal
opportunity for those of us that work

02:43:40.190 --> 02:43:43.350
in remote settings, there, there is
a responsibility that comes with it.

02:43:44.260 --> 02:43:46.340
Travis Bader: Rachel, I
think we've covered a lot of,

02:43:46.470 --> 02:43:47.760
lot of ground on this one.

02:43:48.240 --> 02:43:51.589
Now, whenever I get people calling me
up and asking for help, I'll say, have

02:43:51.590 --> 02:43:53.319
you listened to this episode, right?

02:43:53.360 --> 02:43:54.919
Go through it from start to finish.

02:43:55.680 --> 02:43:56.250
Absolutely.

02:43:56.410 --> 02:43:56.830
That.

02:43:58.375 --> 02:44:03.215
Really gets the major nuts and bolts
of the secret sauce out there into

02:44:03.215 --> 02:44:04.905
the public view for people to look at.

02:44:05.175 --> 02:44:07.215
I'd love to hear questions
that people have.

02:44:07.245 --> 02:44:08.355
I'd love to see comments.

02:44:08.375 --> 02:44:12.725
Other people who've been successful,
please let us know what your route was.

02:44:13.184 --> 02:44:16.114
People who've been unsuccessful
want to let us know why.

02:44:16.135 --> 02:44:19.814
And after listening to this, if you have
an idea of like, well, maybe it was one

02:44:19.814 --> 02:44:23.225
of these things, cause I'll tell you,
it's a part of the regulations here.

02:44:23.575 --> 02:44:26.845
They actually have to let you know
why at the end for revocation.

02:44:26.855 --> 02:44:27.975
They talk all about that.

02:44:28.645 --> 02:44:31.575
Um, notice of refusal and revocation.

02:44:31.575 --> 02:44:35.215
They have to actually let you know
and serve that information to you.

02:44:35.215 --> 02:44:42.345
So let's use this as a place where people
can share their knowledge and, um, Maybe,

02:44:42.415 --> 02:44:48.545
maybe our shared goal of normalizing this
process will, uh, will be seen through.

02:44:48.795 --> 02:44:49.445
Rachel Athila: Absolutely.

02:44:49.505 --> 02:44:50.695
And here's a 2025.

02:44:51.175 --> 02:44:51.515
Travis Bader: I love it.

02:44:52.545 --> 02:44:53.054
Thank you, Travis.

02:44:53.315 --> 02:44:53.874
Thank you.