WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.642 --> 00:00:08.882 Dallas Campbell: Hello and welcome to In-Orbit, the podcast exploring how 00:00:08.952 --> 00:00:13.132 technology from space is empowering a better world, brought to you by 00:00:13.132 --> 00:00:15.372 the Satellite Applications Catapult. 00:00:15.542 --> 00:00:19.322 I'm your host, Dallas Campbell and today we're going to be talking about 00:00:19.732 --> 00:00:23.040 space debris and the challenges that it presents to the space sector. 00:00:23.304 --> 00:00:27.154 Today, I'm joined by Gary Cannon, he's the space segment lead at the Satellite 00:00:27.154 --> 00:00:31.784 Applications Catapult, we've got Pat Matthewson, head of business strategy 00:00:31.814 --> 00:00:38.014 and analysis at Astroscale and Valentin Valhondo, Program Manager at ClearSpace. 00:00:38.327 --> 00:00:43.197 Now, there are many layers to consider when talking about space debris, including 00:00:43.197 --> 00:00:47.827 where it comes from, how it impacts future space missions and satellites, as well as 00:00:47.827 --> 00:00:52.230 the novel, exciting cleanup technologies and the legal implications of it all. 00:00:52.740 --> 00:00:58.170 Do we need regulations in place to ensure space debris doesn't affect our ability 00:00:58.440 --> 00:01:01.320 to explore and use space in the future? 00:01:02.940 --> 00:01:03.510 Hi everyone. 00:01:03.510 --> 00:01:04.330 Well, welcome to the show. 00:01:04.330 --> 00:01:05.750 Thanks very much for joining us. 00:01:05.750 --> 00:01:07.030 We're all online today. 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:10.051 No one's in the studio, but thank you very much for being here. 00:01:10.081 --> 00:01:11.741 I thought we'd just go around the room quickly, we can just 00:01:11.741 --> 00:01:12.761 sort of introduce ourselves. 00:01:12.761 --> 00:01:14.651 We've got Gary, first of all, tell us you're from the 00:01:14.651 --> 00:01:16.051 Satellite Applications Catapult. 00:01:16.071 --> 00:01:18.211 So just tell us a little bit about what you do here. 00:01:18.485 --> 00:01:21.815 Gary Cannon: yeah, I'm the Space Segment lead at the Satellite applications 00:01:21.815 --> 00:01:25.855 Catapult, which basically means I'm a satellite designer, through my experience. 00:01:25.915 --> 00:01:29.268 So anything to do with space hardware that the catapult is looking at, 00:01:29.298 --> 00:01:30.598 it generally comes across my desk. 00:01:30.648 --> 00:01:32.808 Dallas Campbell: Great, well thank you very much indeed for being here. 00:01:32.898 --> 00:01:35.008 Oh God, we've got so much good stuff to talk about. 00:01:35.008 --> 00:01:37.952 Valentin, we've Valentin, you're from ClearSpace, but tell us a little bit 00:01:37.952 --> 00:01:41.212 about what you do at ClearSpace and who ClearSpace are just for our listeners. 00:01:41.409 --> 00:01:42.189 Valentin Valhondo: Thank you very much. 00:01:42.539 --> 00:01:44.969 so yeah ClearSpace is an In-Orbit services company. 00:01:45.149 --> 00:01:50.409 We were established in 2019 in Switzerland as a spinoff of a technical university 00:01:50.829 --> 00:01:55.934 and since then, we've expanded in the UK and more internationally as 00:01:55.934 --> 00:01:59.908 well and we are trying to tackle the problem of space debris and 00:02:00.008 --> 00:02:02.298 creating the In-Orbit services market. 00:02:02.588 --> 00:02:05.778 Personally, I'm a programme manager here, I'm leading the development 00:02:05.808 --> 00:02:11.208 of the UK's first National Debris Removal Mission, so I do everything 00:02:11.318 --> 00:02:15.688 related to designing the satellite, so things like Gary was mentioning, 00:02:15.768 --> 00:02:19.678 coordinating the team, selecting the supply chain, but also trying to 00:02:19.688 --> 00:02:23.038 resolve all the regulatory issues that go around these kinds of missions, 00:02:23.264 --> 00:02:24.904 Dallas Campbell: My head just, I get a headache thinking about 00:02:24.904 --> 00:02:26.277 regulatory surrounding this. 00:02:26.381 --> 00:02:30.061 And from Astroscale, we've got Pat Thanks for being here. 00:02:30.302 --> 00:02:32.438 maybe just as a reminder, you can tell us a little bit about what 00:02:32.438 --> 00:02:34.268 Astroscale do and what you do there. 00:02:34.588 --> 00:02:37.258 Pat Matthews: Sure, so Astroscale is a publicly listed, 00:02:37.288 --> 00:02:38.748 In-Orbit servicing company. 00:02:39.128 --> 00:02:43.018 We're the only private company to demonstrate on two occasions, a 00:02:43.038 --> 00:02:47.668 successful, rendezvous proximity operations with a non cooperative object. 00:02:48.192 --> 00:02:52.862 but what Astroscale was trying to usher in is a sustainable space 00:02:52.862 --> 00:02:56.812 environment, a world in which we have services similar to which we have 00:02:56.812 --> 00:03:00.842 in other industries like on the road or in shipping or other industries 00:03:00.922 --> 00:03:05.392 we have terrestrially where we think about how are things reused, recycled? 00:03:05.533 --> 00:03:05.663 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:03:05.693 --> 00:03:07.073 Pat Matthews: And kept sustainable. 00:03:07.415 --> 00:03:10.135 Dallas Campbell: I've been really, I was a bit confused about this episode cause I'm 00:03:10.135 --> 00:03:14.580 sure it's one of those subjects we talk a lot about, space debris and I realised 00:03:14.580 --> 00:03:18.990 we actually hadn't done a full dedicated episode, but in my brain, I think we had. 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.494 So, I think this is a really good opportunity to start from real 00:03:21.504 --> 00:03:25.574 basics about what space debris is and establish the problem, then we can 00:03:25.574 --> 00:03:27.277 get into a little bit more detail. 00:03:27.797 --> 00:03:31.064 Most people, I think, well, certainly anyone listening to this podcast 00:03:31.104 --> 00:03:34.954 will be aware of this idea of space debris as something that is dangerous. 00:03:35.305 --> 00:03:39.079 But let's start with the fact that space is really, really big, and satellites 00:03:39.079 --> 00:03:42.722 are really, really small, and we're getting more and more satellites, how 00:03:42.752 --> 00:03:44.672 bad is the problem of space debris? 00:03:44.822 --> 00:03:47.455 And actually, well, let's define that term first, I suppose. 00:03:47.515 --> 00:03:49.475 Let's start with real first steps. 00:03:49.735 --> 00:03:50.685 Someone could just jump in. 00:03:50.685 --> 00:03:52.535 Who'd like to have a go at talking about that? 00:03:52.535 --> 00:03:53.075 What do we mean? 00:03:53.085 --> 00:03:53.345 Yeah. 00:03:53.830 --> 00:03:54.260 Gary Cannon: Okay. 00:03:54.290 --> 00:03:54.542 So 00:03:54.542 --> 00:03:58.662 what I determine as space debris is it's inactive or uncontrollable items 00:03:58.672 --> 00:04:02.882 that occupy any region of space, but we're obviously more interested 00:04:02.882 --> 00:04:04.562 in the local environment of earth. 00:04:05.068 --> 00:04:05.217 Dallas Campbell: We're 00:04:05.252 --> 00:04:05.342 Gary Cannon: these... 00:04:05.342 --> 00:04:06.532 Dallas Campbell: And we're talking about human stuff. 00:04:06.547 --> 00:04:09.467 We're talking about human made things. 00:04:09.467 --> 00:04:11.317 rather than Artificial stuff. 00:04:11.317 --> 00:04:11.497 Yeah, 00:04:12.242 --> 00:04:14.792 Gary Cannon: So this stuff, these items generally have the potential 00:04:14.792 --> 00:04:18.902 to crash into other items, be those other items inactive or active and 00:04:18.902 --> 00:04:23.172 from those collisions, they can cause a cascade in which each collision, 00:04:23.337 --> 00:04:26.927 creates more space debris that increases the likelihood of further collisions. 00:04:27.347 --> 00:04:33.227 So this was coined, this study was done by a chap called Donald Kessler out of 00:04:33.227 --> 00:04:37.930 NASA in 1978 and this, idea of collisions, increasing the likelihood of more 00:04:37.930 --> 00:04:39.660 collisions is called the Kessler Syndrome. 00:04:39.880 --> 00:04:43.014 Pat Matthews: I think it's important, too, to ask yourselves, why does 00:04:43.014 --> 00:04:44.714 this matter in the first instance? 00:04:44.734 --> 00:04:48.654 So let's presume someone's listening to this podcast on their morning commute, 00:04:48.804 --> 00:04:54.404 a few days from now or something like that and along space is woven into our 00:04:54.404 --> 00:04:55.964 lives, whether we realise it or not. 00:04:55.984 --> 00:05:00.704 So when they tapped into the two, that financial transaction was likely 00:05:00.764 --> 00:05:03.774 timestamped and possibly secured by GPS. 00:05:04.234 --> 00:05:08.084 The coffee in their cup that they're carrying along with them was grown 00:05:08.094 --> 00:05:11.984 using satellite technology, whether or not they have an umbrella with 00:05:11.984 --> 00:05:16.394 them that was informed by satellites, which generated that weather report. 00:05:16.884 --> 00:05:20.274 So, when we're talking about space debris and the risks that it poses, 00:05:20.274 --> 00:05:24.894 we're talking about the livelihoods of everyone listening to this podcast and 00:05:25.094 --> 00:05:30.254 space debris, this is the kind of detritus of, our first steps into the cosmos. 00:05:30.264 --> 00:05:33.869 This has been a project that's less than 80 years old or so. 00:05:34.299 --> 00:05:39.239 But as that ramps up for a variety of reasons we can get into, those objects 00:05:39.239 --> 00:05:43.559 are increasingly putting our livelihoods under threat and even something small, 00:05:43.559 --> 00:05:46.899 we talk about space being really big, but even something small as a 00:05:46.909 --> 00:05:49.709 bolt is moving 17, 000 miles an hour. 00:05:49.976 --> 00:05:53.636 So something, I don't think anyone would like to be hit with that object 00:05:53.656 --> 00:05:57.219 and we could imagine what would happen if it hits a satellite and similarly, 00:05:57.219 --> 00:06:00.589 something the size of your fist or objects that we track at 10 centimeters 00:06:00.589 --> 00:06:02.849 hit with extreme explosive force. 00:06:02.849 --> 00:06:06.349 So even these small little pieces are of real concern. 00:06:06.632 --> 00:06:08.192 Dallas Campbell: I mean, I asked the question at the beginning, 00:06:08.212 --> 00:06:13.899 space is big because in 1957, after October 1957, there was one object, 00:06:14.059 --> 00:06:15.619 a human made object in space. 00:06:15.899 --> 00:06:19.619 So there was nothing for it to crash into And it wasn't very big, it was the 00:06:19.619 --> 00:06:22.889 size of the beach ball and satellites are relatively small anyway, I mean, 00:06:22.969 --> 00:06:26.532 you could say that they're the size of a car, how much stuff is up there, I 00:06:26.532 --> 00:06:29.942 suppose is the question, how much stuff is up there that has the potential 00:06:29.942 --> 00:06:31.997 to get a bump into other stuff. 00:06:32.107 --> 00:06:33.347 Do we have some kind of figure. 00:06:33.562 --> 00:06:36.642 Pat Matthews: Yeah, so there's about 10, 000 active satellites, there's 00:06:36.702 --> 00:06:41.629 about 13, 000 total satellites, so that gives you about 3, 000 dead ones. 00:06:42.299 --> 00:06:46.799 We track about 40, 000 objects over 10 centimeters. 00:06:47.067 --> 00:06:51.517 There's about a million objects over a centimeter and there's about 130 00:06:51.527 --> 00:06:56.067 million over a millimeter, and all of those matter for different reasons. 00:06:56.497 --> 00:07:00.927 But space is big, but usable space is relatively small and very close 00:07:00.927 --> 00:07:04.157 to Earth and when we're talking about this debris problem, we're 00:07:04.157 --> 00:07:05.817 often talking about Low Earth Orbit. 00:07:06.011 --> 00:07:10.961 So anything within say, under 2, 000 kilometers from the Earth's surface. 00:07:11.077 --> 00:07:14.454 Dallas Campbell: Because often I see kind of graphics of this problem where 00:07:14.454 --> 00:07:17.564 you'll see the earth and then just loads and loads of stuff around it 00:07:17.564 --> 00:07:20.534 and I always think that's a bit of a cheat because the actual objects, the 00:07:20.534 --> 00:07:23.644 size of the objects compared to the earth are completely off the scale. 00:07:24.114 --> 00:07:28.571 You know, I'm just trying to get a sense of really how, bad is the situation? 00:07:28.581 --> 00:07:30.501 How damaging is the situation? 00:07:30.756 --> 00:07:33.826 Valentin Valhondo: I think an important aspect is, as Pat was mentioning, 00:07:33.836 --> 00:07:36.121 is the usable space is not so much. 00:07:36.191 --> 00:07:39.751 So especially even within LEO, we use very specific orbits. 00:07:40.121 --> 00:07:41.861 We don't use any orbit within LEO. 00:07:41.861 --> 00:07:45.951 So we like to use what we call polar orbits most of the times for Earth 00:07:45.951 --> 00:07:49.971 observation satellites or something with the constellations, we use 00:07:50.031 --> 00:07:51.631 like basically the whole sphere. 00:07:52.004 --> 00:07:54.498 there are some specific orbits that are of concern. 00:07:54.638 --> 00:07:57.888 We use the most and then we have most debris as well in there. 00:07:58.238 --> 00:08:02.178 So those orbits are really the ones we should be caring about. 00:08:02.273 --> 00:08:05.643 Dallas Campbell: So it's a little bit like road lanes up in space, and it's 00:08:05.643 --> 00:08:09.282 not necessarily the verges and the fields to the side that's the problem, it's 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:11.209 the debris that's actually on the road 00:08:11.604 --> 00:08:14.654 Valentin Valhondo: But as well, you can have debris coming from the side and 00:08:14.654 --> 00:08:16.264 then hitting you on the main highway. 00:08:16.264 --> 00:08:19.676 So all debris, especially coming from all directions is 00:08:19.676 --> 00:08:21.056 actually quite important as well. 00:08:21.121 --> 00:08:24.661 Gary Cannon: I like the idea of the road analogy there, because the biggest problem 00:08:24.661 --> 00:08:28.991 really are the poles because all of those roads, or those orbits that the spacecraft 00:08:29.061 --> 00:08:33.234 occupy, they all converge at the poles, They all cross over the poles, and that's 00:08:33.324 --> 00:08:37.394 where they get closer together, so you get these major problems around the poles. 00:08:37.839 --> 00:08:40.699 Pat Matthews: And if you're to continue the traffic analogy, just to take, 00:08:40.709 --> 00:08:44.189 so if anyone listening to this call has ever, lives in a part of the 00:08:44.189 --> 00:08:47.769 world where they can see the night sky, they've probably seen a little 00:08:47.769 --> 00:08:51.569 trail of satellites in a chain, like a string of pearls moving across the sky. 00:08:52.056 --> 00:08:57.666 And often that is a mega constellation, it might, most likely a Starlink, which 00:08:57.666 --> 00:09:02.396 is the SpaceX Constellation and the SpaceX Constellation, which is in Low Earth 00:09:02.396 --> 00:09:08.346 orbit, in the first six months of this year, had to dodge traffic 50, 000 times. 00:09:08.632 --> 00:09:13.942 So it had to make maneuvers 50, 000 times as it was traversing over the night sky 00:09:13.942 --> 00:09:16.462 to avoid objects they deemed were at risk. 00:09:17.012 --> 00:09:20.939 So these, this risk of collision is very real for satellite owners and 00:09:20.939 --> 00:09:24.709 operators and we can talk about also how this has affected things like 00:09:24.709 --> 00:09:26.149 the International Space Station. 00:09:26.389 --> 00:09:26.449 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:30.889 Pat Matthews: But actively dodging debris, dodging traffic, as we're talking about. 00:09:30.939 --> 00:09:36.609 It's a very normal practice now for those who own and operate satellites. 00:09:37.259 --> 00:09:37.719 Dallas Campbell: That's really interesting. 00:09:37.769 --> 00:09:41.679 I mean, how difficult is it if you're a satellite moving at 17, 000 miles an 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:43.966 hour, how difficult is it to kind of move? 00:09:44.366 --> 00:09:44.766 How does that work? 00:09:44.876 --> 00:09:47.496 You've got little thrusters that kind of whip, move you, 00:09:47.666 --> 00:09:48.726 whoop, got to go over there. 00:09:49.171 --> 00:09:51.641 Gary Cannon: That's right, the easiest thing to do is an altitude change. 00:09:51.741 --> 00:09:54.611 but what that requires is you have to stop your operations. 00:09:54.621 --> 00:09:57.181 So the satellite is In-Orbit and that, you know, if we use the 00:09:57.181 --> 00:10:01.104 Starlink, story there, Starlink is providing communications, right? 00:10:01.384 --> 00:10:06.687 So if it has to make a maneuver to avoid something, it's got to stop that service 00:10:06.707 --> 00:10:09.087 whilst the spacecraft reorientates itself. 00:10:09.237 --> 00:10:11.117 So the thruster is pointing in the right direction. 00:10:11.452 --> 00:10:14.642 Once the thrust is pointing in the right direction, it can make a burn, change 00:10:14.642 --> 00:10:18.049 its orbit, whether that's altitude or inclination and then it's got to 00:10:18.049 --> 00:10:19.439 get back into that chain as well. 00:10:19.459 --> 00:10:23.049 So that whole time, whilst it's making the maneuver means it's 00:10:23.059 --> 00:10:24.599 not doing what it should be doing. 00:10:24.609 --> 00:10:26.339 It's not under operational conditions. 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:27.079 Dallas Campbell: Oh, I see. 00:10:27.246 --> 00:10:30.489 And just sort of just while we're on the subject of historical context, 00:10:30.516 --> 00:10:34.226 I'm interested in, I mean, how have some major accidents happened? 00:10:34.246 --> 00:10:35.946 Have satellites hit other satellites? 00:10:35.956 --> 00:10:39.496 Have we had Kessler syndrome effects that have damaged satellites? 00:10:39.496 --> 00:10:42.056 I mean, you've mentioned satellites moving around, but give us some 00:10:42.056 --> 00:10:43.556 examples of things that have happened. 00:10:43.756 --> 00:10:44.096 Gary Cannon: Okay. 00:10:44.106 --> 00:10:48.326 So the first one that I know about was, back in 1985, where the Americans 00:10:48.436 --> 00:10:52.856 actually started this, they launched an anti satellite weapon and destroyed one 00:10:52.856 --> 00:10:55.869 of their satellites at 555 kilometers. 00:10:55.889 --> 00:10:57.239 Dallas Campbell: Actually in space, they had a... 00:10:57.969 --> 00:11:00.672 Gary Cannon: In space and they, the debris created from that was, they 00:11:00.832 --> 00:11:04.152 modeled it and they expected it to last another five to 10 years. 00:11:04.322 --> 00:11:09.222 So that was the first one but in a way, kind of low risk because that debris 00:11:09.412 --> 00:11:11.322 eventually deorbited pretty quickly. 00:11:12.252 --> 00:11:15.862 In 2007, China, launched an anti satellite missile, which destroyed one 00:11:15.862 --> 00:11:20.322 of their satellites at 865 kilometers, but that debris created from that 00:11:20.502 --> 00:11:24.707 collision or that destruction is expected to last for decades or centuries. 00:11:25.037 --> 00:11:27.534 So that's a big problem and then the.. 00:11:27.534 --> 00:11:29.344 Dallas Campbell: Can I just pause one second there. 00:11:29.371 --> 00:11:33.311 when you say China launched an Antisatellite missile, so you're 00:11:33.311 --> 00:11:36.234 saying they, the missile was shot from the earth and hit a satellite. 00:11:36.534 --> 00:11:37.014 Gary Cannon: Correct. 00:11:37.204 --> 00:11:38.194 Dallas Campbell: And for what purpose? 00:11:38.214 --> 00:11:41.424 Like what was the reason for doing this? 00:11:41.484 --> 00:11:43.374 Or is it, am I asking a really stupid question here? 00:11:43.744 --> 00:11:47.984 Gary Cannon: I'm pretty certain it was to demonstrate or to test their 00:11:48.194 --> 00:11:50.704 anti satellite weaponry capabilities. 00:11:50.904 --> 00:11:53.484 They wanted, they wanted to prove that they could do that. 00:11:53.484 --> 00:11:54.464 Dallas Campbell: Do this right? 00:11:54.484 --> 00:11:54.814 Okay. 00:11:54.869 --> 00:11:55.159 Gary Cannon: Yeah. 00:11:55.287 --> 00:11:57.837 Then the Russians did the same in 2021. 00:11:57.917 --> 00:12:00.387 They launched a missile that hit one of their own satellites. 00:12:00.387 --> 00:12:04.616 But again, this satellite was in low earth orbit and has, created a 00:12:04.616 --> 00:12:08.196 huge debris cloud that spans between 300 and a thousand kilometers. 00:12:08.366 --> 00:12:11.066 So there's a big problem with these, anti satellite tests. 00:12:11.066 --> 00:12:13.322 But satellites hitting other satellites. 00:12:13.412 --> 00:12:15.272 I seem to recall it's one of those anecdotal things. 00:12:15.422 --> 00:12:20.302 There have been collisions, I'm sure Pat and Valentin know a bit more about 00:12:20.392 --> 00:12:20.502 Dallas Campbell: that. 00:12:20.502 --> 00:12:23.776 I mean, I've seen bits of satellite, that, even a fleck of paint 00:12:23.816 --> 00:12:26.156 that would hit a satellite that would just behave like a bullet. 00:12:26.206 --> 00:12:27.752 I mean, it's, really, really destructive. 00:12:28.202 --> 00:12:28.842 Gary Cannon: Yeah, that's right. 00:12:29.507 --> 00:12:32.247 Valentin Valhondo: I think one of the major collisions that happened, this 00:12:32.247 --> 00:12:38.493 is the first one, was in 2009, between an Iridium satellite and a Cosmos, a 00:12:38.523 --> 00:12:42.604 defunct satellite from Russia, where basically they collided, crossing 00:12:42.604 --> 00:12:46.849 the poles, they were both in opposing orbits and then basically that created 00:12:46.849 --> 00:12:51.705 a cascade of debris, that then, well, it flew across the orbit and then 00:12:51.705 --> 00:12:53.155 they met again in the poles again. 00:12:53.165 --> 00:12:58.005 So it created even more debris and I think the population of debris, just because 00:12:58.005 --> 00:13:00.555 of that collision increased by 10 or 15%. 00:13:00.670 --> 00:13:02.699 Dallas Campbell: Got it, the formula is the more stuff we put up there, 00:13:02.839 --> 00:13:05.719 the more crowded it becomes, the more dangerous it becomes, the more risky 00:13:05.719 --> 00:13:08.694 it becomes and actually, Pat, what you said at the beginning was really, 00:13:08.907 --> 00:13:13.857 most of us just aren't quite aware of just how fundamental what we do 00:13:13.857 --> 00:13:19.962 in Low Earth Orbit is to civilisation and I'm talking about, you know, Uber. 00:13:20.236 --> 00:13:24.206 and Deliveroo would not function if it wasn't for satellites, 00:13:24.216 --> 00:13:25.496 so this is a big problem. 00:13:25.746 --> 00:13:29.976 Pat Matthews: And so many of the things that we take to be a part of our standard 00:13:29.986 --> 00:13:34.206 of living, you know that the yields we get from our crops, the food delivered 00:13:34.206 --> 00:13:38.146 just in time to our plates This is really absolutely critical and folks hear this 00:13:38.146 --> 00:13:41.966 and think oh, no the astronauts and the astronauts are terrified of this. 00:13:41.976 --> 00:13:45.341 Chris Hadfield, the famous Canadian Astronaut says the only thing he's 00:13:45.341 --> 00:13:50.067 afraid of really is space debris, given its unpredictability and that ASAT 00:13:50.147 --> 00:13:53.807 test, that anti satellite test that was mentioned, the Russian one, caused 00:13:53.837 --> 00:13:58.337 the astronauts aboard the International Space Station to have to shelter inside 00:13:58.454 --> 00:14:02.094 the modules or the return capsules that they'd come back to Earth in. 00:14:02.464 --> 00:14:06.054 So this is very real, but it's real for us here on Earth as well. 00:14:06.421 --> 00:14:08.491 Dallas Campbell: Thank you, that's a really good bit of context there. 00:14:08.531 --> 00:14:09.481 So we know what we're talking about. 00:14:09.481 --> 00:14:13.061 We understand that the severity of the situation, let me just ask you, I 00:14:13.071 --> 00:14:17.438 mean, how do we, I mean, it's obviously tracking big bits of debris, I suppose 00:14:17.468 --> 00:14:19.668 relatively easy, but how is that? 00:14:19.698 --> 00:14:20.768 How are things like tracked? 00:14:20.818 --> 00:14:22.208 And how do we track smaller bits? 00:14:22.208 --> 00:14:25.628 You know, we talk about clouds of debris, is there a way we can 00:14:25.628 --> 00:14:28.608 accurately track what's up there and, and make, predictions about, 00:14:29.703 --> 00:14:30.303 things crashing into each other. 00:14:30.469 --> 00:14:33.403 Gary Cannon: My knowledge of this is based around the systems that track 00:14:33.453 --> 00:14:38.352 the debris and that started off with NORAD in North America, where they 00:14:38.352 --> 00:14:42.349 have, optical cameras and radar, they started off tracking the larger bits. 00:14:42.999 --> 00:14:46.976 Originally it was just rocket bodies, but then after Donald Kessler 00:14:46.986 --> 00:14:49.962 started opening his mouth, they started tracking smaller and smaller, 00:14:50.852 --> 00:14:52.092 exactly smaller and smaller bits. 00:14:52.562 --> 00:14:55.626 so now as we know, the reason we're doing this, podcast, because it's 00:14:55.656 --> 00:14:57.636 becoming more and more of a problem. 00:14:57.636 --> 00:15:02.096 So there is more and more technology out there for tracking and even 00:15:02.106 --> 00:15:03.916 making satellites more trackable. 00:15:03.956 --> 00:15:06.576 So you're putting retro reflectors on them, for example. 00:15:06.931 --> 00:15:10.421 Dallas Campbell: But also presumably, there must be kind of a better end of 00:15:10.421 --> 00:15:12.561 life systems in place for satellites. 00:15:12.701 --> 00:15:16.321 If you're going to put something up, there must be some kind of recycling 00:15:16.351 --> 00:15:19.136 stamp that can put on it a way of sort of bringing it back again so things 00:15:19.136 --> 00:15:22.076 don't just stay up there forever, particularly if they're not being used. 00:15:22.503 --> 00:15:23.973 It seems crazy, do we have that? 00:15:24.323 --> 00:15:25.703 I mean, does that exist? 00:15:25.978 --> 00:15:28.298 Do we know what side of the road we drive on in space? 00:15:28.673 --> 00:15:29.193 Pat Matthews: Absolutely. 00:15:29.193 --> 00:15:32.023 I mean, this is the project that we're working on at Astroscale. 00:15:32.033 --> 00:15:36.233 So we're trying to prepare and for a world in which satellites are all 00:15:36.243 --> 00:15:38.853 deorbited effectively and safely. 00:15:39.223 --> 00:15:42.933 So we encourage, as all satellites going up, to adopt a docking 00:15:42.933 --> 00:15:44.663 interface, it's just a little plate. 00:15:45.063 --> 00:15:48.313 We manufacture one, there's other ones out in the market that just 00:15:48.313 --> 00:15:52.073 makes it much easier for a servicer like ours, a satellite like ours, to 00:15:52.073 --> 00:15:55.413 come up and grab it and ClearSpace can talk about similar things. 00:15:55.413 --> 00:15:59.623 There's small measures that you can take to grab us, make getting a satellite 00:15:59.623 --> 00:16:02.063 that dies In-Orbit much, much easier. 00:16:02.228 --> 00:16:04.008 Dallas Campbell: Okay, can you just expand on that technology? 00:16:04.008 --> 00:16:06.508 So the idea is, okay, you've got a dead satellite. 00:16:06.998 --> 00:16:10.568 You guys, your company sends something up with like an arm, a 00:16:10.568 --> 00:16:12.028 robot arm that sort of grabs it. 00:16:12.534 --> 00:16:15.764 because you kind of read about harpoon guns and nets and all kinds 00:16:15.764 --> 00:16:19.794 of rather exotic things, but I suppose I want to know, do they exist yet? 00:16:19.944 --> 00:16:22.934 I mean, are you guys actually bringing stuff down? 00:16:22.944 --> 00:16:24.144 Where are we with all of this? 00:16:24.379 --> 00:16:28.339 Pat Matthews: Yeah, so Astroscale has demonstrated in 2001 with our Elsa 00:16:28.339 --> 00:16:33.259 D mission, we brought up a simulated piece of debris and let it go and 00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:34.974 came up and rendezvoused with it. 00:16:35.424 --> 00:16:39.124 The hard part about this is an object that's non cooperative, which we 00:16:39.124 --> 00:16:41.834 said at the top, because we can't, it has no thrusters, it has no 00:16:41.834 --> 00:16:43.774 control, and it might be tumbling. 00:16:44.354 --> 00:16:46.714 So imagine a figure skater that's spinning. 00:16:47.064 --> 00:16:51.294 Now you have to lean in and grab that figure skater, but you have to make 00:16:51.294 --> 00:16:54.134 sure you do the inverse of its spin. 00:16:54.794 --> 00:16:59.814 So you have to come up close, you have to autonomously figure out what that spin is 00:16:59.814 --> 00:17:04.264 because the latency down to the earth, and you have to close that gap and match it. 00:17:04.854 --> 00:17:09.074 So it's an extremely hard ballet that you have to figure out to make this happen and 00:17:09.074 --> 00:17:12.574 that's where the really core, technology at the heart of our two companies is 00:17:12.574 --> 00:17:15.334 this rendezvous proximity, capability. 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.079 Dallas Campbell: And Valentin, is this the kind of work that 00:17:19.109 --> 00:17:20.559 you guys are doing as well? 00:17:20.824 --> 00:17:21.734 Valentin Valhondo: Yeah, definitely. 00:17:21.734 --> 00:17:25.004 So, one of the key aspects is to be able to get close to 00:17:25.004 --> 00:17:26.134 the piece of debris safely. 00:17:26.464 --> 00:17:29.734 That's the first aspect, so that's what they call Random One Proximity 00:17:29.734 --> 00:17:34.174 Operations and those are the technologies that ClearSpace are developing as well. 00:17:34.324 --> 00:17:37.294 We are currently demonstrating on ground that it can be done. 00:17:37.744 --> 00:17:40.731 we have five new missions that are going ahead due to be launching the 00:17:40.731 --> 00:17:45.721 next few years, but unfortunately, debris removal is not yet a reality. 00:17:45.721 --> 00:17:49.866 It's something it's in the very early stages where we are launching the first 00:17:49.866 --> 00:17:53.936 missions to try to demonstrate that it can be done and as you were mentioning 00:17:53.946 --> 00:17:58.856 about having preferred satellites, that's, the standard we're going towards, but 00:17:58.856 --> 00:18:03.196 unfortunately we have more than 3000 satellites already In-Orbit that are 00:18:03.196 --> 00:18:04.676 not prepared, that may be tumbling. 00:18:05.186 --> 00:18:08.386 So there is a whole different set of technologies that 00:18:08.416 --> 00:18:10.526 are required to be able... 00:18:10.626 --> 00:18:13.239 Dallas Campbell: Just when you said that, 3000 dead satellites, the scale 00:18:13.239 --> 00:18:16.716 of work that you guys have just seems to be enormous and presumably every 00:18:16.716 --> 00:18:20.056 different dead satellite is behaving in a completely different way and 00:18:20.056 --> 00:18:25.523 will require some different type of technology or science or something 00:18:25.523 --> 00:18:27.179 to bring it back or get rid of it. 00:18:27.399 --> 00:18:30.649 Pat Matthews: So we have a mission right now that's flying at the moment with, 00:18:30.719 --> 00:18:35.689 JAXA, the Japanese Space Agency, which is the Address J mission, which is going 00:18:35.689 --> 00:18:39.269 up to inspect a three ton rocket body. 00:18:39.769 --> 00:18:44.019 So what we've done is we've sent a servicer out and done this ballet, 00:18:44.019 --> 00:18:49.749 this dance around this three ton school bus sized object to understand 00:18:50.129 --> 00:18:52.579 how is it, what condition is it in? 00:18:52.849 --> 00:18:54.879 How is it rotating or tumbling? 00:18:55.149 --> 00:18:58.639 And to check the points of interface for which our next mission will come 00:18:58.639 --> 00:19:00.779 and grab this object and de orbit it. 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:06.149 So we've just been awarded that subsequent mission by JAXA, but characterising 00:19:06.219 --> 00:19:10.049 the state that these objects are in and how you might tackle them is a 00:19:10.049 --> 00:19:12.543 key problem, in terms of solving this. 00:19:13.038 --> 00:19:15.478 Gary Cannon: But one of the really useful things, just to pick up on 00:19:15.478 --> 00:19:18.058 what Pat was talking about there, there's a growing interest in what 00:19:18.058 --> 00:19:19.328 we call space domain awareness. 00:19:19.783 --> 00:19:24.003 Obviously, because it's space that gets shortened to SDA, the acronym, and the 00:19:24.033 --> 00:19:28.473 photography, the imagery that Astroscale has produced of that rocket body has 00:19:28.473 --> 00:19:33.933 been invaluable in characterising the state of debris in the orbit where that 00:19:33.933 --> 00:19:38.207 rocket body is, because they're able to, as they've taken the pictures and being 00:19:38.207 --> 00:19:42.033 those pictures back to earth, various parties and organisations can look at 00:19:42.033 --> 00:19:46.793 that rocket body and see the pit marks or the damage to that rocket body and we can 00:19:46.793 --> 00:19:51.977 start to understand more about the extent of the debris situation in that rocket 00:19:51.977 --> 00:19:54.327 bodies orbit, it's very useful stuff. 00:19:54.672 --> 00:19:57.329 Dallas Campbell: Just while we're on the subject of acronyms, RPOs, 00:19:57.349 --> 00:19:59.379 Remote Proximity Operations. 00:19:59.379 --> 00:20:00.159 What do we mean by that? 00:20:00.794 --> 00:20:02.814 Pat Matthews: Rendezvous Proximity Operations. 00:20:02.994 --> 00:20:08.067 So that's the coming close to something and so it's a combination of three 00:20:08.067 --> 00:20:12.647 things, kind of your maneuverability, your autonomy, and your dexterity. 00:20:12.657 --> 00:20:16.364 So it's like thrusters, computer vision, and robotics. 00:20:16.374 --> 00:20:20.964 How do you come together to grab something that's uncooperative in space? 00:20:21.349 --> 00:20:26.188 And those are, that's the core IP at the heart of these endeavours. 00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:29.959 Gary Cannon: And that's a new acronym, really, this whole RPO side of things, 00:20:29.959 --> 00:20:34.459 because since Sputnik, we've desperately tried to keep spacecraft as far apart 00:20:34.459 --> 00:20:37.829 as possible, because of this concern around, space debris and collisions. 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:42.189 Whereas now, Clear Space and Astroscale, they're actively trying to bring 00:20:42.189 --> 00:20:45.069 spacecraft together, which is unheard of. 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:47.539 So that's why it's got its own kind of field of study, 00:20:47.734 --> 00:20:48.114 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:20:48.398 --> 00:20:51.582 you know, when you read about space debris, I was just, there are these 00:20:51.582 --> 00:20:54.472 kinds of what seemed to be very exotic technologies and I mentioned, 00:20:54.495 --> 00:20:58.270 at the beginning, you know, this idea of harpoons and giant nets is 00:20:58.270 --> 00:21:03.020 that an actual thing that you guys are working on or did I dream it? 00:21:03.210 --> 00:21:06.400 Valentin Valhondo: So there's been a UK mission in the past to try 00:21:06.781 --> 00:21:08.244 to demonstrate those technologies. 00:21:08.244 --> 00:21:11.994 So they actually launched a space harpoon that, was, used to target 00:21:11.994 --> 00:21:13.806 like a small demonstrator of debris. 00:21:14.226 --> 00:21:19.036 But I don't think no one is looking into those technologies nowadays as a feasible 00:21:19.036 --> 00:21:20.666 solution for the problem space debris. 00:21:21.296 --> 00:21:24.812 There are other solutions, for example, at ClearSpace we're developing this kind 00:21:24.812 --> 00:21:30.134 of space claw, which is, four big robotic arms that basically come and grab the 00:21:30.144 --> 00:21:34.572 object and create like an envelope so it cannot escape once you capture it, 00:21:35.202 --> 00:21:38.665 because it's very difficult, as we were saying, to know the state of the debris 00:21:38.955 --> 00:21:44.374 once it's been in space for maybe 20 30 years, so we need to find ways to approach 00:21:44.395 --> 00:21:49.175 it safely and also to capture it and once we capture it, not let it escape or break 00:21:49.595 --> 00:21:52.205 or disintegrate or create more debris. 00:21:52.235 --> 00:21:55.955 So, yeah, we are developing those kinds of technologies, but there are many more 00:21:55.965 --> 00:22:01.242 like robotic arms, or even like docking plate specific, adapters, for example. 00:22:01.242 --> 00:22:01.302 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:22:01.609 --> 00:22:04.909 So there's all this kind of technology, but in terms of the very, I mean, I 00:22:04.909 --> 00:22:07.935 can understand how that would work, with big objects, but in terms of 00:22:07.935 --> 00:22:12.615 these tiny objects, bolts, flecks of paint, are there any technologies 00:22:12.615 --> 00:22:14.055 that are going to help sort that out? 00:22:14.747 --> 00:22:16.667 Pat Matthews: So there are proposed technologies. 00:22:16.707 --> 00:22:21.247 So with the very small stuff, folks have talked about laser ablation technology, 00:22:21.560 --> 00:22:22.920 that has all sorts of problems. 00:22:23.261 --> 00:22:26.540 Do you want to put a laser In-Orbit? 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:30.230 Do you want to be the country that's actively licensing the satellite 00:22:30.250 --> 00:22:31.850 that's firing lasers In-Orbit? 00:22:32.207 --> 00:22:34.957 I think that is fairly far down the road. 00:22:35.047 --> 00:22:39.097 The theory of the case that Astroscale's pursuing, that ClearSpace is pursuing 00:22:39.382 --> 00:22:43.052 and not to put words in your mouth, Valentin, but I suspect a similar is 00:22:43.052 --> 00:22:47.465 if we can get the big objects before they become small objects, we can 00:22:47.585 --> 00:22:49.425 arrest on this problem more upstream. 00:22:49.695 --> 00:22:51.355 So that's what we're focusing on now. 00:22:51.676 --> 00:22:53.412 Dallas Campbell: And I suppose we're talking about this problem, 00:22:53.412 --> 00:22:56.162 we're addressing this problem now, because obviously it's going to get 00:22:56.162 --> 00:22:59.638 worse and worse in the future as we put more and more stuff In-Orbit. 00:22:59.688 --> 00:23:02.585 I'm just trying to get a sense for listeners, like, how bad is it now? 00:23:03.085 --> 00:23:04.855 is it sort of, This is catastrophic. 00:23:04.855 --> 00:23:09.465 or are we saying it's going to get really bad in the future, we need to stop it now. 00:23:09.465 --> 00:23:11.265 I'm just trying to get some kind of sense of that. 00:23:11.622 --> 00:23:15.268 Gary Cannon: I've read reports that say that, certain orbits, in low 00:23:15.308 --> 00:23:17.628 Earth orbit are already unstable. 00:23:18.088 --> 00:23:20.478 so, this is like beyond the point of no return. 00:23:21.062 --> 00:23:25.382 yeah, it's already pretty bad, but other orbits like, MEO, Middle 00:23:25.382 --> 00:23:29.212 Earth Orbit for our GNSS satellites, GPS satellites, that's okay. 00:23:29.572 --> 00:23:34.022 Geostationary is a highly regulated, environment, so that's kind of 00:23:34.022 --> 00:23:36.905 okay as well, but I'll defer to, Valentin and Pat, they might have 00:23:36.905 --> 00:23:38.145 some more up to date information. 00:23:38.750 --> 00:23:40.940 Valentin Valhondo: I like the data that Pat shared before about Starlink. 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:45.250 In the last six months, they've had to do 50,000 collision avoidance maneuvers, 00:23:45.260 --> 00:23:51.180 so that means debris came close to one of their satellites 50,000 times 00:23:51.280 --> 00:23:53.619 and they had to maneuver 50,000 times. 00:23:53.919 --> 00:23:58.359 So what that means is they basically have to spend fuel to move away, 00:23:58.419 --> 00:24:01.629 that has cost, that basically reduces the lifetime of that satellite. 00:24:01.989 --> 00:24:05.601 So therefore it's reducing its lifetime and therefore they will become debris 00:24:05.601 --> 00:24:07.812 faster unless they get out of the orbit. 00:24:08.362 --> 00:24:11.292 but all of these, we're only talking about the pieces that are trackable, 00:24:11.322 --> 00:24:13.452 which are bigger than 10 centimeters. 00:24:13.942 --> 00:24:18.042 If you think of it like between one centimeter and 10 centimeter is a very big 00:24:18.072 --> 00:24:20.167 piece of debris, but you cannot track it. 00:24:20.177 --> 00:24:24.727 So a collision of an object, which is five centimeters big, it's basically 00:24:25.057 --> 00:24:29.007 if it hits in the wrong place in your propulsion tank, it may just basically 00:24:29.027 --> 00:24:33.157 blow your satellite, make it explode and we're talking about looking into 00:24:33.157 --> 00:24:36.667 the numbers, more than 1 million of those objects for which we cannot 00:24:36.667 --> 00:24:40.877 do anything, we can just basically pray they don't come across path. 00:24:41.414 --> 00:24:43.339 Gary Cannon: That's a good point just to bring it back to is 00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:44.040 it 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:46.449 Gary Cannon: as we say, you know, and obviously it is bad, we need 00:24:46.449 --> 00:24:47.389 to be doing something about it. 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:52.161 But on the other side of this discussion is the fact our ability to 00:24:52.251 --> 00:24:54.496 track the debris is getting better. 00:24:54.756 --> 00:24:59.143 So all of the optical cameras and the radars, and even our modeling, the way we 00:24:59.143 --> 00:25:00.793 model the orbits, that's getting better. 00:25:01.263 --> 00:25:04.953 previously, if, two spacecraft were deemed to come within two kilometers of 00:25:04.953 --> 00:25:08.593 each other, there would be what we call a Conjunction Avoidance Maneuver, where 00:25:08.683 --> 00:25:10.483 the spacecraft have to steer out the way. 00:25:10.793 --> 00:25:14.803 Whereas now, because those cameras and those tracking technologies and the 00:25:15.123 --> 00:25:18.573 orbital modeling techniques, because they're getting better, we can now come, 00:25:18.666 --> 00:25:21.153 a lot closer before we have to do a check. 00:25:21.153 --> 00:25:24.613 So it's kind of like the smart motorways going back to our earlier analogy. 00:25:24.683 --> 00:25:25.803 Dallas Campbell: Really good analogy. 00:25:25.843 --> 00:25:26.193 Yeah. 00:25:26.473 --> 00:25:28.223 Gary Cannon: spacecraft into that orbit. 00:25:28.393 --> 00:25:30.523 Dallas Campbell: Smart motor, that's a really interesting analogy in a way. 00:25:30.523 --> 00:25:33.293 It's a little bit like, I always think of it as a bit like an arms race. 00:25:33.293 --> 00:25:34.413 It's a bit like climate change. 00:25:34.413 --> 00:25:37.723 It's like, well, climate change is getting worse, but then we're then developing 00:25:37.763 --> 00:25:41.873 technology that can certainly attempt to mitigate the worst bits of climate change, 00:25:41.873 --> 00:25:45.523 but then it gets worse and so you get this arms race between the problem and 00:25:45.523 --> 00:25:47.183 the technology to deal with the problem. 00:25:47.553 --> 00:25:52.053 The secret it seems to be is to just stop the problem or like 00:25:52.183 --> 00:25:54.383 try and just make it better. 00:25:54.413 --> 00:25:57.473 So why don't we start talking about kind of regulation and rules of the 00:25:57.473 --> 00:25:59.013 road and where we are with that? 00:25:59.596 --> 00:26:03.526 Am I right in thinking we still have, well, we have the outer space treaty, 00:26:03.856 --> 00:26:06.796 which I guess was modeled on something a little bit like the Antarctic 00:26:06.826 --> 00:26:11.981 treaty of the 1940s and 1950s, which says, this area is for the benefit of 00:26:11.981 --> 00:26:13.671 everyone, and we have to look after it. 00:26:13.901 --> 00:26:17.411 Maybe you could sort of give us a bit of a rundown about where we are in 00:26:17.411 --> 00:26:22.085 terms of treaties and what people are allowed to put up in space and do in 00:26:22.085 --> 00:26:23.525 space and what rules are in place, 00:26:24.280 --> 00:26:24.770 Gary Cannon: That's a big one. 00:26:26.340 --> 00:26:26.430 Valentin Valhondo: Yeah. 00:26:26.990 --> 00:26:29.780 Gary Cannon: There's so, yeah, the Outer Space Treaty is the 00:26:29.790 --> 00:26:32.976 first set of legislation that came around that got, ratification. 00:26:33.006 --> 00:26:35.676 I forget what the numbers are, but it wasn't ratified by everybody. 00:26:35.706 --> 00:26:38.136 Most countries signed up to the Outer Space Treaty. 00:26:38.586 --> 00:26:39.486 So that's a good start. 00:26:39.946 --> 00:26:44.411 Getting any changes to that requires all of those countries to agree on 00:26:44.411 --> 00:26:47.851 those changes and of course, as their technology and understanding of some of 00:26:47.851 --> 00:26:51.641 those other, let's say, smaller nations, as their knowledge has increased, they 00:26:51.641 --> 00:26:55.391 become more aware of the ramifications of changes to the Outer Space Treaty. 00:26:56.141 --> 00:27:00.216 In the meantime, the UK, at least, has created the Space Industries 00:27:00.216 --> 00:27:03.146 Act 2017, 2018, one of the two. 00:27:03.594 --> 00:27:07.787 This talks about how we regulate activities in space and then we've 00:27:07.787 --> 00:27:10.117 got the Space Regulations Act as well. 00:27:10.307 --> 00:27:16.377 So those two pieces of legislation go some way to defining how we should 00:27:16.377 --> 00:27:21.967 behave in space and to implement that, to monitor it, the CAA, the 00:27:21.967 --> 00:27:26.007 Civil Aviation Authority have been tasked with regulating space flight 00:27:26.007 --> 00:27:30.857 from the UK, so that those activities are in line with the Space Industries 00:27:30.857 --> 00:27:32.477 Act and the Space Regulations Act. 00:27:32.602 --> 00:27:35.386 Dallas Campbell: So we have regulation, but again, it seems to me a little 00:27:35.396 --> 00:27:41.260 bit like climate change in that space, you know, orbits transcend national 00:27:41.260 --> 00:27:42.540 boundaries like climate change does. 00:27:42.540 --> 00:27:46.170 So unless you have everyone signing up to it, then it's kind of pointless. 00:27:46.190 --> 00:27:47.510 It's no good just having Britain. 00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:50.620 Well, there is a point of just having Britain having rules and regulations 00:27:50.630 --> 00:27:53.530 about things like climate change because hopefully it spreads and people get 00:27:53.540 --> 00:27:57.760 the idea, but there is no, as far as I am aware, there's no kind of universal 00:27:57.780 --> 00:28:00.757 agreement yet, on space regulation. 00:28:01.052 --> 00:28:03.682 Pat Matthews: No, but there's a, there's steps in the right direction. 00:28:03.682 --> 00:28:09.022 It's similar to climate change where we have the majority of carbon emissions 00:28:09.052 --> 00:28:10.952 coming from just a few actors. 00:28:11.032 --> 00:28:15.952 In space, we have the majority of debris coming from just a few actors. 00:28:16.397 --> 00:28:18.087 The majors, the major space fair. 00:28:18.757 --> 00:28:22.769 So when they take leadership in this, we see real change. 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:25.859 We're seeing this really grow amongst policymakers. 00:28:25.869 --> 00:28:30.039 So the United States, the FCC has just changed to a five 00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:31.639 year de orbit regulation. 00:28:31.639 --> 00:28:34.359 So any satellite that's launched at the end of its life should 00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:36.039 de orbit within five years. 00:28:36.379 --> 00:28:43.374 We saw the first fine for failing to move a satellite into a graveyard orbit in Geo. 00:28:43.764 --> 00:28:47.654 So there's some really forward thinking happening on this and they're starting 00:28:47.784 --> 00:28:51.584 to become traction, but you're absolutely right, there's still a core problem 00:28:51.584 --> 00:28:56.979 here of alignment, can someone who wants to launch a satellite irresponsibly 00:28:57.269 --> 00:29:03.095 defect to the easiest, most permissive, regulatory regime that'll have them? 00:29:03.285 --> 00:29:04.245 That's a real issue. 00:29:04.595 --> 00:29:08.045 and how we think about this, but also there's a huge education piece, you 00:29:08.045 --> 00:29:12.615 know, the number of, governments move when people demand it, when citizens 00:29:12.615 --> 00:29:16.165 understand how space is in their lives, when people that work in the space 00:29:16.165 --> 00:29:21.105 industry demand it of their companies, demand it of their customers, all 00:29:21.105 --> 00:29:24.825 these things are an enormous education piece that has to keep happening. 00:29:25.345 --> 00:29:27.951 Dallas Campbell: So that education thing, a little again, sorry to say, 00:29:27.981 --> 00:29:31.061 use the same analogy, a bit like climate change, once the public are aware of 00:29:31.061 --> 00:29:35.651 things like climate change and make and want change and demand change for 00:29:35.831 --> 00:29:40.075 all kinds of reasons, then regulatory bodies and governments will follow, 00:29:40.075 --> 00:29:41.345 will pick up on that and go, okay, 00:29:41.965 --> 00:29:44.098 Gary Cannon: they're gonna pick up their pace on this, I think, but 00:29:44.098 --> 00:29:47.708 as Pat's saying, there's lots of organisations out there already that 00:29:47.808 --> 00:29:52.696 are actively trying to mitigate this issue before it becomes a PR issue, 00:29:53.216 --> 00:29:56.519 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, and what's the kind of ultimate goal of regulation? 00:29:56.539 --> 00:30:01.284 Is it to have a kind of universal set of rules, that every nation that put, 00:30:01.284 --> 00:30:04.414 or not just nation, every company that puts stuff into space will follow, 00:30:04.814 --> 00:30:07.094 that's really clear and less disparate. 00:30:07.337 --> 00:30:10.564 Pat Matthews: So I think, you know, if you were to ask, a regulator In 00:30:10.574 --> 00:30:15.080 the US, UK, France, or even Russia or China, you know, how they think 00:30:15.080 --> 00:30:19.060 about this, is they would probably say the optimal amount of regulation is 00:30:19.060 --> 00:30:23.520 one in which we can continue to use space for our benefit in perpetuity. 00:30:24.170 --> 00:30:29.545 That is, I think, the long run place where a well intending actor arrives after this, 00:30:29.565 --> 00:30:31.305 and we're not on that path right now. 00:30:31.635 --> 00:30:35.655 if we want space to be the inheritance of future generations, if we want all the 00:30:35.665 --> 00:30:39.643 things that, you know, I suspect everyone on this call was a, sci fi reader growing 00:30:39.643 --> 00:30:44.414 up or something like that, if we want that future, that's a long term game 00:30:44.514 --> 00:30:48.864 that governments have to engage in to think about, how do we conduct activity 00:30:48.864 --> 00:30:53.674 in such a way that it's available to those who build things in the future? 00:30:54.124 --> 00:30:55.076 and that's the end goal. 00:30:55.286 --> 00:30:55.656 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:30:55.656 --> 00:30:58.924 I mean, I mentioned the Antarctic treaty as a comparison. 00:30:58.954 --> 00:31:02.181 I do think we need to look at Low Earth Orbit, a bit like a separate continent, if 00:31:02.181 --> 00:31:08.241 you like, like a separate, a physical area like Antarctica and I think public don't 00:31:08.271 --> 00:31:12.714 really see it like that yet, which goes back to your points about education, Pat. 00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:13.536 Pat Matthews: And this is hard. 00:31:13.576 --> 00:31:17.026 I mean, I think I'm surrounded by a few PhDs on this call, but the 00:31:17.796 --> 00:31:22.381 outer space law in itself and just even the subspecialty here, is a 00:31:22.391 --> 00:31:24.381 career and a lifetime into itself. 00:31:24.381 --> 00:31:30.131 So this is, you know, extremely complex, interwoven stuff and it will take 00:31:30.131 --> 00:31:33.971 time to distill that and communicate that effectively to policymakers. 00:31:34.339 --> 00:31:38.313 Gary Cannon: Although the idea of space as another nation, I think all four of 00:31:38.313 --> 00:31:43.439 us here would definitely become a citizen of that nation and I suspect you would 00:31:43.439 --> 00:31:44.999 get quite a few other people as well. 00:31:44.999 --> 00:31:47.214 we could reach critical mass pretty quickly, I'd say. 00:31:48.118 --> 00:31:48.858 Dallas Campbell: So interesting. 00:31:49.098 --> 00:31:52.571 I'm just trying to get a sense of how Wild West it is at the moment and, that's 00:31:52.571 --> 00:31:56.511 the thing, when aviation was invented in the, took off in the 1930s, we were 00:31:56.511 --> 00:32:00.981 very quick to sort of regulate it and have rules that all nations followed 00:32:01.434 --> 00:32:04.394 and, it seems that our activities in space are much more complicated 00:32:04.394 --> 00:32:05.634 than that for all kinds of reasons. 00:32:05.961 --> 00:32:08.981 Gary Cannon: That term has been widely used in the space industry, the Wild West. 00:32:09.071 --> 00:32:13.388 and, I think what the Civil Aviation Authority, who take their mandate 00:32:13.411 --> 00:32:17.224 from DSIT, the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, they're 00:32:17.224 --> 00:32:21.594 doing a really good thing, by saying you've got to de orbit within X years. 00:32:21.594 --> 00:32:24.624 You've got to have better trackability of your spacecraft. 00:32:24.654 --> 00:32:27.731 We're moving in the right direction from a regulation side of things. 00:32:27.921 --> 00:32:31.091 If you can make your spacecraft more trackable, it's going to be safer. 00:32:31.091 --> 00:32:34.641 So absolutely, as Pat says, if every nation came together 00:32:34.641 --> 00:32:37.441 and says, your spacecraft must be trackable, they've got to de orbit 00:32:37.441 --> 00:32:38.311 within X years, that'd be great. 00:32:38.541 --> 00:32:40.521 Dallas Campbell: Well, we know just by watching the news. 00:32:40.521 --> 00:32:43.921 We know that that's what nations do, they just always just come together 00:32:44.191 --> 00:32:46.081 and work together in harmony and peace. 00:32:46.591 --> 00:32:46.931 Gary Cannon: Yeah, yeah. 00:32:47.551 --> 00:32:49.681 Dallas Campbell: That's just the natural order of things. 00:32:50.275 --> 00:32:53.946 Valentin Valhondo: A nice piece of news is now the European Space Agency is 00:32:53.976 --> 00:33:00.149 pushing to get the net zero charter or the zero debris charter, which basically is 00:33:00.169 --> 00:33:03.129 inviting anyone who wants to join there. 00:33:03.149 --> 00:33:06.559 It's expanding it to the whole of the space industry in Europe. 00:33:06.884 --> 00:33:11.494 But also abroad and also governments, to sign it and basically it's 00:33:11.644 --> 00:33:16.024 pledged to commit to doing space, using space in a sustainable way. 00:33:16.494 --> 00:33:21.194 For example, ClearSpace and Astroscale have signed that in 2024, the UK 00:33:21.194 --> 00:33:25.294 government has signed it as well and by working with the UK space agency, 00:33:25.294 --> 00:33:29.514 they are telling us that it will likely flow down into all of the license 00:33:29.514 --> 00:33:31.234 applications that will go through the UK. 00:33:31.784 --> 00:33:39.291 So we can see within the US, European Union, the more advanced space players, 00:33:39.291 --> 00:33:42.894 they are really pushing towards space sustainability and creating, 00:33:42.894 --> 00:33:45.101 an environment that will outlive us 00:33:45.601 --> 00:33:45.871 Dallas Campbell: basically. 00:33:45.871 --> 00:33:50.053 OK, let's think about the future, so we've got stuff in space, we've got more stuff 00:33:50.053 --> 00:33:53.483 gonna be in space which is going to create more problems, but we're going to get 00:33:53.513 --> 00:33:56.293 better technology, which you guys are on. 00:33:56.703 --> 00:34:00.573 We're going to create better regulatory frameworks and better legal systems in 00:34:00.573 --> 00:34:01.793 place that hopefully are going to help. 00:34:02.298 --> 00:34:05.358 Give us some ideas if we sort of leap 10 years into the future, 00:34:05.358 --> 00:34:08.953 what's the world of Low Earth Orbit and satellites going to be like? 00:34:09.658 --> 00:34:12.661 Pat Matthews: I think let's look at an industry here on earth or how 00:34:12.661 --> 00:34:17.218 did all the ancillary activities around having a car evolve? 00:34:17.298 --> 00:34:20.058 And it's some function of the number of cars on the road. 00:34:20.418 --> 00:34:24.868 So gas stations and tow trucks didn't evolve when the first car was 00:34:24.868 --> 00:34:28.038 driven, but it evolved when there was kind of a critical mass of cars 00:34:28.038 --> 00:34:30.148 to make those services worthwhile. 00:34:30.628 --> 00:34:34.698 I think as you see the volume of satellites increase, the amount of 00:34:34.708 --> 00:34:39.378 mass, you'll see those services, which Astroscale is very passionate 00:34:39.388 --> 00:34:40.938 about bringing into being. 00:34:41.508 --> 00:34:44.218 I think some of the more interesting things that might happen as well 00:34:44.218 --> 00:34:49.006 is this RPO technology we talked about, getting rid of debris 00:34:49.006 --> 00:34:50.396 is just the beginning of this. 00:34:50.726 --> 00:34:55.266 If you can grab and manipulate objects In-Orbit, you can do all sorts of 00:34:55.266 --> 00:34:59.916 fascinating things, you can overcome, you know, so called Tyranny of the Fairing. 00:35:00.276 --> 00:35:03.676 So we all remember the James Webb Space Telescope that had 00:35:03.676 --> 00:35:07.256 to be folded like origami to fit inside the fairing of a rocket. 00:35:07.646 --> 00:35:11.336 Imagine you could break that into a lot of different pieces and then assemble it 00:35:11.336 --> 00:35:16.406 In-Orbit and have a much bigger telescope, or say you wanted to assemble space 00:35:16.416 --> 00:35:21.826 stations or space based solar power, you could build big objects with all sorts 00:35:21.826 --> 00:35:24.296 of capabilities using these technologies. 00:35:24.326 --> 00:35:27.226 Dallas Campbell: This is it, so In-Orbit manufacturing, which we've talked about on 00:35:27.226 --> 00:35:31.446 this podcast, actually the technology that you guys are developing in order to make 00:35:31.516 --> 00:35:36.456 space a safer place can also be extended into things like In-Orbit manufacturing 00:35:36.456 --> 00:35:38.286 and building bigger things in space. 00:35:38.336 --> 00:35:39.026 Valentin Valhondo: 100%. 00:35:39.026 --> 00:35:42.351 Gary Cannon: There's even talk of recycling in space, like taking some 00:35:42.351 --> 00:35:45.771 of those dead satellites and using some of those viable materials rather 00:35:45.771 --> 00:35:47.151 than burning them up in the atmosphere. 00:35:47.361 --> 00:35:52.071 Can we extract that gold or the aluminum and use it again? 00:35:52.216 --> 00:35:56.516 If we can enable this remote proximity operations capability, 00:35:56.536 --> 00:35:58.226 then we can service spacecraft. 00:35:58.246 --> 00:36:02.026 So before they die, we can bring them, we can extend their life. 00:36:02.486 --> 00:36:05.446 There are companies in the UK and around the world looking at refueling. 00:36:05.446 --> 00:36:09.696 So when a spacecraft runs out of fuel, we can fill it back up and it can carry on. 00:36:10.156 --> 00:36:13.776 But also there's talk of reconfigurable spacecraft. 00:36:14.486 --> 00:36:17.599 So can you change the mission of the spacecraft without having to 00:36:17.609 --> 00:36:19.049 deorbit and launch a new spacecraft? 00:36:19.359 --> 00:36:22.599 Can we do something with the existing spacecraft to make it do something 00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:24.159 else that's potentially more useful? 00:36:24.419 --> 00:36:27.819 So all of these longer lives and different capabilities, that's a 00:36:27.959 --> 00:36:31.629 way of extending the life of that could potentially become junk. 00:36:31.911 --> 00:36:33.391 Pat Matthews: I absolutely agree. 00:36:33.501 --> 00:36:35.091 It's all about a circular economy. 00:36:35.401 --> 00:36:38.511 the most sustainable satellite is the one that's already in space. 00:36:39.031 --> 00:36:43.588 So how do we continue to use assets that are already up there and extend 00:36:43.588 --> 00:36:45.208 their lives and their usefulness? 00:36:45.593 --> 00:36:46.373 Dallas Campbell: That makes a lot of sense. 00:36:46.762 --> 00:36:49.972 Gentlemen, thank you so much for being part of this discussion. 00:36:50.022 --> 00:36:51.382 Absolutely fascinating. 00:36:51.382 --> 00:36:55.072 I hope we sort of covered everything from first steps to the future. 00:36:55.482 --> 00:36:57.923 Gary, Pat, Valentin, a huge thanks. 00:36:58.278 --> 00:36:58.938 Pat Matthews: Thanks so much. 00:36:59.050 --> 00:36:59.690 Gary Cannon: Thank you very much. 00:36:59.867 --> 00:37:00.537 Valentin Valhondo: Thank you to you! 00:37:01.011 --> 00:37:03.181 Dallas Campbell: To hear future episodes of In-Orbit, be sure to 00:37:03.181 --> 00:37:07.511 subscribe on your favorite podcast app and to find out a little bit 00:37:07.511 --> 00:37:11.150 more about how space is empowering industries in between episodes, Thanks. 00:37:11.441 --> 00:37:15.161 You can visit the Catapult website or join them on social media.