Empire Strikes Back === Claire Fisher: [00:00:00] and welcome to Carried Far Far Away, a podcast project where we are watching and reading everything that Carrie Fisher did during her short life and storied career. I'm Claire Fisher, Katie Marinello: I'm Katie Marinello Claire Fisher: and today we are talking about Katie Marinello: Empire Strikes Back. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, Claire Fisher: Wars Episode Five, The Empire Strikes Back. Katie Marinello: pew, pew, Katie Marinello: Seems only yesterday we were doing Katie Marinello: episode four. Claire Fisher: Well, actually, yesterday we were opening your time Katie Marinello: Oh my goodness. Claire Fisher: Tell the people what you had on your official autobiography for your time capsule. Katie Marinello: right. So I graduated from fifth grade in 2000. Now good. half the audience is saying you're ancient, but I was a millennium baby. And we did this project where we put a bunch of stuff into [00:01:00] what looks like a bomb or a rocket ship. We're going to say rocket ship. Katie Marinello: Cause we're talking about Star Wars. And it said, do not open until 2025. So my parents brought it down over the weekend, Claire and her husband were with me and we opened it. And I wrote a couple of different timelines and biographies, but there was one where I had just written three facts about myself and the very first fact was I'm obsessed with star Wars. Katie Marinello: And I was like, well, it was pretty much guaranteed that almost exactly 25 years later, I would start a podcast. That's not really about Star Wars, but it's mostly about Star Wars. Katie Marinello: So just in case there's anyone listening who has never seen Empire Strikes Back, which seems impossible but I did have at least two people asked me this week, if that's the one with the gold bikini. Katie Marinello: Claire, why don't you grace us with a 54 second recap Claire Fisher: Princess Leia is commanding a rebel base on the icy world of Hoth and indulging in some belligerent sexual tension with Han Solo when the Empire discovers their location. During the battle slash evacuation, she's separated from most of [00:02:00] this fleet, including Luke Skywalker, and escapes on the Millennium Falcon with only Han, Chewbacca, and Threepio. Due to engine trouble, they're forced to spend a long time dodging Imperial pursuers in search of a safe harbor. In this time, Leia and Han develop a romance. They seek shelter on Cloud City, only to be betrayed and turned over to Darth Vader for torture. It's revealed Vader wants to capture Luke and is relying on Luke's psychic connection to Leia and Han to draw him out. Shortly before Han is frozen in carbonite and sold to a bounty hunter, Leia confesses her love for him. While Lando helps the rest of the party escape, Luke shows up and fights a dramatic duel with Vader, eventually losing a hand and flinging himself off the Cloud City platform. Leia discovers her Force sensitivity in time to catch him. The ragtag crew vow Claire Fisher: to Han and continue the fight. Katie Marinello: That was 58 seconds. Claire Fisher: And I didn't even do the part where I am your father. Katie Marinello: We'll cut it in. James Earl Jones: I am your father. Katie Marinello: okay, so let's talk a little bit about how this [00:03:00] movie came to be before we get too far into Actors and such because it is an interesting story I think and there's a lot of lore around it and all these stories could be false for all I know But obviously Star Wars was possibly not as big of an underdog as we thought it was or as as the lore says it was but It was an unexpected hit, right? Katie Marinello: It was nobody expected it to go to number one and to become the fervor that it was to the point where, they had to sell IOUs for Christmas gifts and et cetera, et cetera, that year. So, Claire Fisher: was re released and hit number Claire Fisher: one multiple times And Claire Fisher: yeah, it became a phenomenon. Yeah. Katie Marinello: after everybody took the holiday special and chucked it into their memory hole, people were really dying for more content. Right? So pretty much immediately, obviously the second movie was, was greenlit. There was a long negotiation between 20th Century Fox and George Lucas because, now they wanted in, I guess [00:04:00] more than they did the first time. Katie Marinello: And then he decided not to write it and not to direct it. And I think that's really interesting. So I saw a couple of different explanations for this. I don't know if you came across any explanations in your research. Some people say it's because it was really hard on his health to direct Star Wars. Katie Marinello: And some people say it was because he wanted to focus on Raiders of the Lost Ark. Bad decision in my opinion, but different story. Claire Fisher: Well, Claire Fisher: hang on. He's credited as one of the writers. He's credited as like Katie Marinello: Yeah. Yeah. Story by exactly. Katie Marinello: So he didn't. So what he did was he started coming up with ideas in, 1977 pretty much immediately after. Right. But, He decided to hire a science fiction writer, Lee Brackett, so. A woman! Behold, we, we have a woman! Claire Fisher: Involved in the production, although hers was not the final Katie Marinello: no, hers was not the final shooting script. Katie Marinello: So, he hired her for 50, 000, he knew she had [00:05:00] cancer she wrote a script, handed it in, and He wrote a whole bunch of notes on it. And unfortunately she wasn't able to do the rewrites because she had been hospitalized and died. So then, he wrote the second draft, Katie Marinello: Which was something like 121 pages long or something crazy and hand wrote it. Katie Marinello: And then in June of 1978, he hired Lawrence Kasdan to refine it. After being. Impressed with his work on Raiders of the Lost Ark and that keeps coming back and then Claire Fisher: a few things were going on in the zeitgeist here, and Claire Fisher: in Harrison Ford's career. Katie Marinello: right, so let's talk about the director though. So for whatever reason, he decided he didn't want to direct it. Katie Marinello: Maybe he just felt that. It's too many moving pieces. . So he knew Irving Kirshner from USC school of cinematic arts where Kirshner was a teacher. And Kirshner was like, wait, why, why me? You know, cause he had not [00:06:00] really done a ton. He does have independent stuff. And Lucas said that he really liked the way he did character development. Katie Marinello: And this movie was definitely supposed to be more developing of the characters than the original. And the quote is because, you know, everything a Hollywood director is supposed to know, but you're not Hollywood. Claire Fisher: Mm. Claire Fisher: Okay, I hadn't heard that quote. Katie Marinello: yeah. So I hadn't either. So I thought that was interesting. And Kirschner tried to say no, but his, his manager was like, wait, what? Katie Marinello: No, you're, you're going to direct this movie. So yeah, interesting that it is definitely a tonal shift. It's definitely a different writer, a different. Katie Marinello: Director and it's interesting to think about how that all affected things. Claire Fisher: Famously people say that it's darker, I don't know. The first one's not like, Katie Marinello: Light and happy. Claire Fisher: they destroy planets. There's, one survivor of the attack run on the Death Star. I wouldn't [00:07:00] say the first one's light and bright. It ends with, kind of an homage to a Nazi movie, Claire Fisher: right? Katie Marinello: Yeah. I think the fact that there's not a satisfactory happy ending is what gets it branded as dark. Claire Fisher: The Empire Strikes Back not having a happy ending. That is something I did find some trivia on because the final scene that exists in the movie today, where they say we will find Han, we'll rendezvous on Tatooine, Luke's getting his prosthetic hand, that was a reshoot. It was going to end just with Luke having just lost his arm and learned something new. Really scary about his own history. Being caught by Leia, and R2 D2 fixes the engine in the nick of time and they hyperspeed away. And Katie Marinello: That's that. Claire Fisher: But James Bond will return, Claire Fisher: right? Tune in, in the next movie, which will be three years from now, Claire Fisher: right? Um, Katie Marinello: a little bit about the times. Claire Fisher: Okay. So, [00:08:00] this was released June 18th, 1980. 1980 was an election year. Claire Fisher: June was the month in which Jimmy Carter and Ted Kennedy were up against each other in the primaries, Democratic primaries, Claire Fisher: Jimmy Carter did wrap up enough, he secured enough delegates for the nomination, but would lose in the general to Ronald Reagan. So generally you got to put this in the context of the Iran hostage crisis was ongoing. People were becoming quite disillusioned with a certain vision of the future that Jimmy Carter's original election had stood for and there was beginning to be sort of a conservative backlash that would come to define the rest of the 1980s. Katie Marinello: into today. Claire Fisher: Into today. Perhaps relatedly, CNN launched on June 1st as the first ever 24 hour news network, Katie Marinello: Oh no, boo. Claire Fisher: and they have not shut up since Katie Marinello: Nor have they taken down their breaking news banner. Claire Fisher: never, never Katie Marinello: Not once. Claire Fisher: we take down the breaking [00:09:00] news banner CNN's founder has famously said they're prepared to continue broadcasting until the end of the world, and they already have a tape ready for when they need to play the lights down. Claire Fisher: Anyway, CNN started talking and they ain't shut up since. Venus Williams was born the day before Empire Strikes Back came out. On June 3rd of that year, a computer error at NORAD erroneously reported that the Soviets were attacking, which inspired War Games. Katie Marinello: awkward. Claire Fisher: And on the same day as the premiere of Empire Strikes Back, a federal grand jury indicted two U. S. representatives for having accepted 50, 000 in bribes. Offered to them by undercover FBI agents doing an investigation called Ab Scam, which would inspire the plot of American Hustle. So a lot was going on here Claire Fisher: that would inspire future movies. Katie Marinello: only 50, 000 in bribes. That seems like chump change these days. Claire Fisher: know uh, Katie Marinello: when adjusted for inflation, Claire Fisher: these were [00:10:00] both representatives from New Jersey. So, you Katie Marinello: of course they were, of course they were. Claire Fisher: I'm going to look up how much that is in today's dollars. I want to know if we got our money's worth for Claire Fisher: that. Katie Marinello: I'm gonna make a note that you should insert Jon Stewart's clip about the fine New Jersey corruption. It's litera Claire Fisher: today. Katie Marinello: still nothing. Claire Fisher: It's not a lot to sell your soul for but Claire Fisher: anyway, Katie Marinello: not anymore. Katie Marinello: Where are the gold bars? Where are the trips to Turkey? Claire Fisher: Future Claire here. It turns out you can't get that clip of Jon Stewart online anymore, but Katie is referring to a time in, 2014 when he said, I'm disappointed, ashamed of the state I grew up in. To see New Jersey sink to such a piss poor third rate quality of corruption. Claire Fisher: This is New Jersey, a state renowned for its piss rich first rate corruption. Claire Fisher: so, More directly related to the times is sort of what had happened to pop culture After the first Star Wars came out because everything was [00:11:00] coming up sci fi Claire Fisher: in 1977 When Star Wars came out, there had been rumors that Star Trek might get a second, or I guess a third TV series, if you count the animated series, immediately after Star Wars came out and was a hit, Paramount Greenlit Star Trek The Motion Picture, Claire Fisher: launching a movie franchise, which much like CNN has not shut up yet, that one came out yesterday on Paramount Plus. Katie Marinello: A a movie or a spinoff? Claire Fisher: No, Section 31 is a movie. It wasn't theatrically released, but Claire Fisher: it's a movie. Yeah. Katie Marinello: yeah, I mean, lots of movies aren't theatrically released anymore. Claire Fisher: Exactly yeah, everything coming up sci fi, Trekkies had been a huge part of the early fan base for Star Wars, and then Star Wars inspired the Star Trek movies other franchises were jumping into the fray Moonraker, the James Bond film was rushed into production with a hastily assembled space related project. Claire Fisher: plot because space was [00:12:00] big. Dune got greenlit it eventually came out in 1984, but there was like a failed attempt to get some financing for a different version before that. , Frank Herbert, who wrote the Dune series, went out of his way in one of the later Dune books to make a contrived pun saying the three P. O. s are people who are contented with cheap knockoffs, because he was accusing George Lucas of having ripped off portions of Star Wars from Dune, so. And if anyone listening to this is not like, In on all of the, pettiness and viciousness that happens in the sci fi world, let me tell you that people are really competitive about their sci fi fandoms. Alright? Katie Marinello: The many, hours I spent reading Trekkies versus Star Wars fans in early Claire Fisher: Lucas! George Lucas has thrown shade. He said fans of Star Wars don't sit in their basement, they go out and have lives unlike Trekkies. Katie Marinello: There was that whole thing [00:13:00] between William Shatner and Carrie Fisher, and then George Takei had to step in and say we really need to focus all of our hatred on Twilight. Claire Fisher: Yeah, that was a weird thing that had to happen. Remember when Twilight was a thing? Katie Marinello: Remember when Twilight was a thing? I have so many friends who rewatch it, like, it's their comfort Claire Fisher: Lordy, Katie Marinello: I Claire Fisher: Okay, so where was I? Oh, okay, and you also already referenced Raiders of the Lost Ark, Claire Fisher: which, you know, worth noting that Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, were working together on a series of groundbreaking sci fi movies, such as, we might note Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Raiders of the Lost Ark in the same era, I mean, 1982 was when Blade Runner came out, Star Wars was part of and sort of the kickoff for a decade straight of science fiction being big business in a way it hadn't necessarily been before. Claire Fisher: And Claire Fisher: people who were alive at the time say that like, you have [00:14:00] to understand it used to always look cheap. Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: Star Wars made it look like a real movie. Claire Fisher: And, by bringing in. This well-respected indie director, they made the Empire Strikes Back a character study that also features a battle between flying spaceships and anthropomorphized tanks. You are actually in a floating city having a sword duel fight choreographed by. well respected fencers, Claire Fisher: right? Like, so to find a grounded, realistic, or at least real looking way. To do a sci fi movie was still kind of a new idea, Katie Marinello: Right. Right. And I mean, I have several quibbles with the idea that this is a layered character study. I think it gets more credit for that than it actually delivers on, Katie Marinello: and we will talk about that more. But, think about how much character development people were used to getting at that point. James [00:15:00] Bond, POW POW! Katie Marinello: You know, women come, they go. At least this woman stays alive for the entirety of the movie. The movie even if she is still the only woman in the universe, except for there's one moment where there's a woman looking through one of those space screen thingies in the rebel base. Katie Marinello: And Princess Leia is right across from her, as far as I can tell, they do not speak. Katie Marinello: So no Bechdel test there, Katie Marinello: but, but there is a second woman on set for some period of time. Claire Fisher: It gets in a lot of character development for the men. Katie Marinello: yeah, Claire Fisher: And Claire Fisher: so, while Luke's story is great and you've got the whole dramatic reveal, I am your father, and you've got the losing an arm, and you've got the facing your own darkness, and you've got the deciding between your own path and protecting your friends, you know, right? All great character stuff. Katie Marinello: Wonderful. All good stuff. Nothing. Claire Fisher: Not so much [00:16:00] comparable in Leia's story, although they do have some character beats that Katie Marinello: There's some character beats, but she, so the first movie we noted that the IMDb summary was her, right? Princess Leia. Katie Marinello: Is intercepted and must rely on whatever her friends to help her. This one is, Katie Marinello: after the empire overpowers the Rebel Alliance, Luke Skywalker begins his Jedi training with Yoda. At the same time, Darth Vader and bounty hunter Boba Fett pursue his friends across the galaxy. Boba Fett gets name checked and Princess Leia doesn't. Katie Marinello: Yes. Yes. And the rest she's and the rest, right? Like Gilligan's Island. Katie Marinello: I. I No, I I'm glad you said that because I had the exact same thought. I was like, she has actually become less of a character in this one, in my opinion, than she does. In the first one. And I'm going to tell you now what I think that the title of this episode should be, which is Carrie Fisher's father [00:17:00] forgets she exists. Claire Fisher: Okay. Darth Vader doesn't know he Katie Marinello: No, no, no, no, no. That's not what I mean. That's not what I mean at all. I'm not talking about the phantom menace bullshit. I'm not talking about any of that. What I'm talking about is that in the first movie, she is the most dangerous person to them. Claire Fisher: Hmm. Katie Marinello: They moved the entire space. Thing to her planet Katie Marinello: because they need Yes, the whole space thing, the Death Star, to her planet because she needs to give up this vital information. Katie Marinello: She is a leader high up in the rebellion. In this movie, he comes face to face with her again. Now, she defeated him once. She's resisted truth serum. They torture Han, it's implied that they're torturing her as well. They never asked them any questions. Han says, they never even asked me any questions. Katie Marinello: And that to me is just what I [00:18:00] understand that you have this white whale, right? You're focused on who you believe your son is, which also not a hundred percent sure how he even figured that out. Cause I don't remember. I don't know what the connection is there. Claire Fisher: crushed you didn't read the comics that I walked a mile roundtrip to Midtown Comics Katie Marinello: Okay, but a comic that came out in Claire Fisher: 15. Katie Marinello: 2015 is not, I mean, it may fill in that gap, but if I'm looking at this in 1980. Katie Marinello: There's not really a connective tissue between, wait, why do we care about Skywalker's son? I mean, we knew, we know about Anakin, we talk about that, but again, she was the most important person in the first movie. Katie Marinello: She was the one that they needed, right? And she is I mean, they don't even show her, not that I want to see anyone tortured. They don't even show her torture scene. They show Chewbacca's and they show Hans and she's just like, why are they doing this? Like she, I feel like she takes a [00:19:00] major step back in her characterization. Claire Fisher: That's true. But before we get into the actual scene by scene here, Claire Fisher: let's do the actors Katie Marinello: Yes. So let's Claire Fisher: are not Carrie Fisher. Katie Marinello: One of the things that Emperor Strikes Back is noted for is It's being really good at, establishing some really powerful new characters. In the second, which you have to do in order to keep the story going. So let's talk about Lando Calrissian. Katie Marinello: Billy Dee Williams. He's originally from Harlem. He made his Broadway theater debut at age seven in 1945. Can you imagine being a seven year old black actor? Katie Marinello: 45, like Claire Fisher: I didn't know Katie Marinello: extremely impressive. And he actually won a painting scholarship to the National Academy of Fine Arts and Design. So painting was actually his first love. Katie Marinello: According to Wikipedia, he returned to acting to fund his art supplies, which is very funny. But he continues to paint to this day and has won awards for it. His stuff is displayed at [00:20:00] various places. His film debut was in The Last Angry Man in 1959, but he came to national attention in the television movie, Bryan's Song 1971, which earned him an Emmy nomination for best actor. Katie Marinello: He has appeared in over a hundred films and over 70 television roles. Over six decades. Besides he's obviously best known for Lando Calrissian. The role that stood out to me was he was Harvey Dent in the 1989 Batman and also in the Lego Batman movie in 2017. Claire Fisher: Yes. She Katie Marinello: I love the Lego movies. Katie Marinello: He's earned three NAACP image awards and the NAACP lifetime achievement award. Katie Marinello: He was inducted into the black filmmakers hall of fame in 1984 and earned a star on the Hollywood walk of fame in 1985. Yoda. We must speak of Frank Oz was born in England, which I did not know that. Did you know he was British? Claire Fisher: I never thought about it, Katie Marinello: Just thinking [00:21:00] about all the voices he does. It wouldn't have necessarily occurred to me. But his parents were puppeteers. So this was in his blood, basically. They moved to California when he was a little bit older. And as a teenager, he worked as a puppeteer's apprentice and he was hired by Jim Henson in 1963 to work for the Jim Henson company. Katie Marinello: Besides Yoda, he is known for Miss Piggy, Fozzie Bear, Animal, and Sam Eagle on The Muppet Show, Cookie Monster, Bert, and Grover on Sesame Street. So kind of an amazing range. And then Claire Fisher: for Yoda? Katie Marinello: so Lucas knew that he wanted this puppet thingy. He asked Jim Henson and Henson actually recommended Oz. Katie Marinello: Now I've read different things about whether the syntax, the, speaking backwards that Yoda does was his, or if Lucas had that in the script but regardless, he definitely made this character what it is, right? Katie Marinello: He voiced the puppet in Return of [00:22:00] the Jedi, obviously, and also in the Phantom Menace, then they made a computer generated Yoda in episode 2 and 3, but he came back to voice them. And then when the DVDs were released, they. Replace the puppet with CGI in episode one, but it's his voice throughout. His work as a director. Katie Marinello: Another thing I did not know, he directed The Dark Crystal, the Muppets take Manhattan Little Shop Of Horrors, Dirty, Rotten Scoundrels. The Indian in the Cupboard, death at a Funeral. Like those are some big, like, those are some names that, you know, and I did not know that about him. So pretty cool. Katie Marinello: And then I guess I have to talk about Boba Fett because apparently we always have to talk about Boba Claire Fisher: put Claire Fisher: Captain Solo in the cargo hold. His great line. Katie Marinello: Right. As you wish. Okay. So, obviously we saw Boba Fett for the first time in the Star Wars Holiday Special. However we don't remember that. Everybody has put that to the side. Katie Marinello: Jeremy Bullock hilariously, his IMDb [00:23:00] page was written by the Boba Fett fan club. And I actually really liked some of their turns of phrase, but he got his start in children's television and then he got a major role in the musical film Summer Holiday in 1963. Shortly after that, he was in the BBC soap opera called The Newcomers, which ran for three years and made him a household name in the UK. Katie Marinello: So he did already have. fame , During the 1970s, he made many other screen appearances. Do you know what other franchise that you've studied in depth he appears in? Claire Fisher: going to guess by the way you said that, that it's James Bond. Katie Marinello: James Bond. He plays the character Smithers, Q's assistant. In 1978. He was starring in the television comedy series Agony when he was asked to play a quote small part in Star Wars Episode 5, The Empire Strikes Back. This is the part that I'm directly quoting from the Boba Fett fan club because I thought it was funny. Katie Marinello: The part, of course, was Boba Fett, proving the old [00:24:00] theatrical saying that there's no such thing as a small part. Katie Marinello: He came back in Return of the Jedi when Star Wars was released in 1997, the interest in the character Boba Fett skyrocketed. And so he was invited to many sci fi conventions and he was apparently known, at least by these guys, who wrote this thing, as someone who Responds to all his fan mail, even though he gets a lot more than he used to. Claire Fisher: I remember when we read How Star Wars Conquered the Universe by Claire Fisher: Chris Taylor, he interviewed Bullock, who said he kept the armor of Boba Fett and he says goodnight Boba Fett on his way up the stairs. Katie Marinello: Well, it certainly kept him comfortable in his later years. Claire Fisher: Is he still alive? Katie Marinello: He died in 2020. Claire Fisher: put a gun to my head, I couldn't have told you that Q had an assistant named Smithers in the 70s. That is such a nothing character, but Katie Marinello: I, I assume that [00:25:00] the Simpsons character is based on that. Claire Fisher: Probably, but I don't know. I mean, I can tell you a lot about Q, including I actually know what Q's real name is, which has been spoken on screen exactly once, Claire Fisher: but I didn't know that he had an assistant. Katie Marinello: I assumed you would know. Interesting that this very white British man originated this role. And then later we find out that it is. Claire Fisher: When they made the prequels, Jango Fett and Young Boba Fett were both played by actors from New Zealand, Maori actors from New Katie Marinello: yes, yes. Claire Fisher: One of whom also narrates the introductory video at the City Museum of Rotorua, New Zealand, which was a weird moment for me in the summer of 2007 as an impressionable young Star Wars fan. Claire Fisher: I walk into this museum and Jango Fett tells me the story of how the volcano erupts when white people get too greedy and I was like, well that puts me in my place then. Thank you, Jango Fett.[00:26:00] Katie Marinello: It's all connected. Claire Fisher: Editor's note, we mean Temuera Morrison, but we didn't have his name in front of us. Claire Fisher: Anyway, anyone else on our actor list? Besides all of our returnees, Alec Katie Marinello: Oh, yes. Obviously, pretty much everybody. Well, not everybody because a lot of them died on the death star. But well, most of the good people, the good ones are back. Katie Marinello: Um Claire Fisher: Darth Vader, and, oh, you didn't mention, the Emperor makes their first, appearance. Katie Marinello: he does as a hologram. I did, there was a credit for his voice, but I know you have some trivia about who played the body, Claire Fisher: Yeah in the original theatrical release, It was a different face because they hadn't yet hired the person who would play Palpatine from then until Claire Fisher: 2019. it was edited I believe as soon as it was released on VHS. They had gone back and put him back in. Ian McDiarmid, was hired for Return of the Jedi and then continued to reprise the role for [00:27:00] many decades. But in the original release of The Empire Strikes Back, it was Margaery Eaton. In heavy makeup and then a voiceover provided by Clive Revels. But it's like a 45 second appearance. Claire Fisher: It wasn't very much. Katie Marinello: And she died in 86. So she didn't live to see how that character evolved over the decades. Katie Marinello: She was an American painter, photographer, and character actress Claire Fisher: , but we've never seen her be the body of Emperor Palpatine because we have only ever seen this. in various home video and re release versions. So you and I have never seen her, but anyone who was at the theater in 1980 did. Claire Fisher: Okay, so with that out of the way, let's talk about this plot. Let's talk about the extent to which it does or doesn't deserve the credit it gets for its character work. Katie Marinello: Okay. Claire Fisher: note off the bat, the first act features someone showing concern for Leia's emotional state. [00:28:00] It is Major Dettlin. played by John Ratzenberger in a single scene. He makes a colleague lower his voice when they're discussing how Luke and Han are stuck outside and might freeze to death so that she won't overhear. The gloomy Claire Fisher: prediction. Katie Marinello: Right. So again, is it showing concern for her, her emotional state or is it infantiles infantilizing her? What, what is her role in this rebellion? Claire Fisher: She is apparently commanding this base. She's the last one out. She doesn't evacuate until they're saying, Imperial troops have entered the base. Imperial troops have entered the base. She's prepared to go down with that ship. Katie Marinello: But, she's not the general, Claire Fisher: no. Katie Marinello: right? She's not who, Han goes to, to say, Okay. I need to leave because we ran into a bounty hunter and I need to go pay off Jabba the Hutt. This whole thing could have been solved with like, a wire transfer. If they had a wire transfer. Yeah. Katie Marinello: Just send a [00:29:00] check. Gosh. But yeah. Claire Fisher: Okay, so that sets up something I want to mention. There are, throughout this movie, at least two ways you can interpret Leia's character Claire Fisher: at pretty much all times. She's either in charge or she's a bit of a figurehead, Claire Fisher: and they kind of go back and forth on that. Claire Fisher: They're either concerned about her or they're infantilizing her. Katie Marinello: mm hmm, Claire Fisher: She and Han are either , just teasing each other? Or Han is sexually harassing her. Claire Fisher: right. Claire Fisher: When he keeps insisting that she has feelings for him, her responses are I'd just as soon kiss a wookie. I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain. You stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder. I guess you don't know everything about women yet, and then passionately kisses Luke in front of him. Later on she says, being held by you isn't quite enough to get me excited. And then she says, you make it so difficult sometimes. And at this point in the movie he says, yeah I do, I really do. Right? Katie Marinello: [00:30:00] And then they kiss, right? Claire Fisher: he says, you could be a little nicer though. And then they kiss, yeah. Either Either. They just are teasing each other or she's actually not interested. Bryan said out loud when she said being held by you isn't enough to get me excited and he says I haven't got time for anything else. Bryan said out loud, God, he's a creep. Is the romance with Han creepy? Claire Fisher: Because that's what she gets to do in this movie Katie Marinello: pretty much. Yeah. Claire Fisher: are stuck together. Claire Fisher: Cut off. Katie Marinello: only two humans on this spaceship in mortal danger, I actually wrote down this whole franchise is just a study in trauma bonding Claire Fisher: Okay, Katie Marinello: because this is supposed to take place like three years later, right? So there's clearly been many, many other adventures together, but there's kind of a big jump from, what do you think me and, a guy like me and a girl like her to, you know, Claire Fisher: a good kiss. Claire Fisher: right. Claire Fisher: yeah. Katie Marinello: Has there been anything else in those [00:31:00] three years or is it. All business on her side. And again, she's the only woman in the universe. So he's kinda creep about it. Claire Fisher: So, just by chance, my husband and I had watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, which is the second one in the Indiana Jones series, the night before we watched The Empire Strikes Back, which is the second one in the Star Wars series. Claire Fisher: And Bryan said he's a creep both times. In Claire Fisher: Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, he hits a woman with a whip to make her not walk away. However, Bryan that Indiana Jones treats women. a certain way because he's an homage to 1930s movie serial heroes who treated women that way. Or Claire Fisher: as he put it, the whole fucking plot of Indiana Jones is absolutely bonkers in any case, so the bonkers way it treats the battle of the sexes is like part of that world. Here, the world [00:32:00] was 100 percent fictional made up out of whole cloth. They could Claire Fisher: have made the balance of power between genders, anything they wanted to Claire Fisher: make it. And what they made it was a whole lot like the dynamic that Indiana Jones has with most Claire Fisher: of the women he encounters, Claire Fisher: When we look back at older movies, remind ourselves the concept of affirmative consent as a concept came into existence in the 1990s. So, in 1980, when, the asteroid they're on shakes and she falls into Han's arms, and he uses this opportunity to, flirt with her, that wasn't seen as as big a problem as it now might be, Claire Fisher: And their first kiss happens after he kind of corners her and presses her up against a bulkhead, and she seems to be receptive to that, but she's just spent the whole first act of the movie not giving him any encouragement at all. Claire Fisher: Of course, then it's, they're trapped on the ship, the timeline is not really defined, but it's Claire Fisher: implied to be a couple of months, because Luke goes through his whole [00:33:00] Jedi Claire Fisher: training in the time they're trapped together. Claire Fisher: So there are, as I said before, two possibilities. A, he's just a super fucking creep and takes advantage of the fact that they're alone together for months and she can't get away from him. Katie Marinello: mhmm, Claire Fisher: to force that relationship. Counterargument, option number two. Leia, being a princess, politician, military commander, is kind of used to sycophants and suck ups and finds herself attracted to a man who challenges her assumptions Claire Fisher: and calls her on some of her pose that she has, now, just because your swagger works on women sometimes doesn't mean you should try it on every woman you Claire Fisher: meet, but it apparently is working for Leia at some point, right? Because when they get to Cloud City, and she thinks something's wrong here, and he kisses her forehead, tells her to relax, she says, as soon as this is over. Claire Fisher: You're as good as gone. As soon as you get me back to the rebels, you're leaving. And at that point, [00:34:00] I was thinking it seems like she likes him better when she doesn't have to be seen with him in public. Katie Marinello: Interesting. Or maybe she likes him better when she's trying to rebuff Lando Calrissian, who is possibly as much of a creep and she doesn't know, right? So she's like excuse you. You know when he says, when he kisses her hand and says you're gorgeous or something like that. And she says, thank you. Katie Marinello: I'm like, Oh, that thank you. Just like sent shivers down my brain. Cause that's every woman who's just in like a vulnerable situation. Like, okay, thanks. Claire Fisher: yeah. And then I've read that as originally scripted, Han said, I'm not planning to trade her Lando, but Claire Fisher: that Harrison Ford objected. He was like, no way. Claire Fisher: Make it , that he's just protective, not that he's paternalistic, right? When he says, all right, all right, Claire Fisher: you old smoothie, Claire Fisher: a lot of how you read Leia's character in this movie depends on how you read that relationship. Katie Marinello: Mm hmm.[00:35:00] Claire Fisher: If it's that they actually are mutually attracted to each other, but, the differences in background, social class, lifestyle, everything are just so obnoxious that they can only really have a relationship when they're stranded together. If that's the case, then this is actually a cute love story. If it's that he's a creep, then this is a story of a woman going through sexual harassment for months, Katie Marinello: and then giving in cause she thinks he's about to die. Claire Fisher: Right. Cause that's the big scene. Claire Fisher: Let's talk about the scene, the subject of many of your childhood nightmares, I know. Katie Marinello: Nightmares. Yes. Yes. We'll call them nightmares. Claire Fisher: Okay, so, Darth Vader, massive drama queen, was already on Cloud City when Han and Leia arrived, unbeknownst to them. But nevertheless, waited until dinner time so he could dramatically reveal his presence. And with him, he has [00:36:00] a bunch of stormtroopers and Boba Fett. Claire Fisher: Who was also hiding, because Boba Fett has apparently also got a flair for the dramatic. He steps out from behind Katie Marinello: Right. You're right. He does. Yeah. Claire Fisher: dinnertime, Katie Marinello: Like that's supposed to mean something to these people. Claire Fisher: people have, well, no. They saw him before in animated form, because that's canon. Katie Marinello: Right. Good point. Katie Marinello: So now he's double crossed them again. Yeah. Claire Fisher: delighted if you would join us, right? And now, what happens Katie Marinello: I recently saw a comic that was like, so what was that? Did they actually sit down for dinner? What was the dinner like? Yeah. Claire Fisher: fanfiction of what happens at that dinner, I'm Katie Marinello: Yeah, the cutaway is not really very effective there. I need to know more. Claire Fisher: Having taken Han and Leia prisoner, Darth Vader Katie Marinello: And Chewbacca! Don't forget Chewbacca! Claire Fisher: and Threep, Threepia. Sorry, sorry. Darth Vader has them tortured because he's hoping that their pain will echo through the Force and cause Luke to [00:37:00] try to come and rescue them. Also left unexplained how he knows Luke can do that trick. Katie Marinello: He assumes that he could do it, Claire Fisher: could he though? Katie Marinello: Yeah, because he says in the first in Star Wars A New Hope, he says, I feel I sense a presence I've not felt in and then goes after Obi Wan. Claire Fisher: Yeah, but that wasn't from across the other side of the galaxy. It was Claire Fisher: from in the same room. Katie Marinello: no, but there is the whole, there's been a disturbance in the force or what does the emperor say? There's been a big something in the force. I don't know if it's disturbance Claire Fisher: in the Claire Fisher: Force. Okay. Katie Marinello: and yeah. Claire Fisher: So he somehow has intuited that Luke is being trained to do this thing, and so he has used Han, Leia, and Chewbacca to get Luke's attention. Katie Marinello: Oh, one other thing. He doesn't necessarily know how long Luke trained with Obi Wan. Claire Fisher: Yeah, that's true. Katie Marinello: So we know that it was approximately two minutes. But in his world, they could have been on Tatooine together the entire time because they were in fact on Tatooine [00:38:00] together the entire time. So. Mm Claire Fisher: fair. But to get back to THE scene, now that Luke Skywalker is on the way, and Darth Vader can sense this, goes to fulfill his half of the deal with Boba Fett, who, who helped track them down by turning over Han Solo to be turned in for the bounty. That's what Claire Fisher: bounty hunters do. But what does he do first, Katie? Katie Marinello: Oh, why does watching this movie still give me genuine anxiety? I don't have any fond feelings for Harrison Ford anymore for reasons I've discussed in previous episodes. As I get older, see the love story between Han and Leia as creepier than romantic. And yet I get so much anxiety and I almost didn't want to watch it. Katie Marinello: So there is. A machine in the cloud city. I guess they used it for, Claire Fisher: [00:39:00] Freezing carbon. Whatever they're mining on Cloud City, they, they transport it by freezing it. Katie Marinello: okay, got it. So Darth Vader has decided that the best way to get Luke from point A to point Emperor is to encase him in carbonite. Absolutely no indication why this plan was hatched. You would think you could just like force choke them or something or keep him like just force choked enough anyway um, right, literally anything. Katie Marinello: But he's decided that he has to be in this carbonate, so they're going to test it on captain solo. And so they basically tell them in the moment, like, he says to Lando, what's going on buddy or whatever, and he tells them you're being frozen in carbonate. And I think the only person who reacts appropriately to this news is Chewbacca. Claire Fisher: Chewbacca fights back, starts throwing Katie Marinello: So starts throwing stormtroopers off the ledge into the [00:40:00] machine. Never to be heard from again, because nobody cares about the stormtroopers. And you know, Han says, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, no, no. This isn't going to help me. And then he says, you have to take care of the princess. Which again, Claire Fisher: Because he's trying to calm Chewbacca down by reminding him of, live to fight another day principles, yes? Katie Marinello: sure, sure. And then he kisses Leia, gets on the thing to go down, and she says, I love you. And he says, I Claire Fisher: I know. Katie Marinello: The lines that have adorned many a wedding cake since. Claire Fisher: Have they? Katie Marinello: Yes, we went to a wedding on May the 4th that had that on the Claire Fisher: Uh, yeah, okay, yeah. Claire Fisher: I Katie Marinello: so Katie Marinello: did you look up the actual story of why this happened? I know we've like talked about it in the past, but do we have any like historical? Confirmation that it was because they didn't know if Harrison Ford was coming back, Claire Fisher: haven't found I mean, the lore around the making of Star Wars is [00:41:00] consistently inconsistent. Claire Fisher: I have heard that Harrison Ford suggested the idea of not responding with I love you too. have heard that it was scripted to be I love you too, but that He didn't think Han would get sentimental in his last moments, basically. Katie Marinello: Right. But I'm talking specifically about the carbonite. Is he putting carbonite because they didn't know if they were going to be able to get the actor back? Claire Fisher: that's what I've heard. I don't know if it's true. Katie Marinello: Yeah. I don't know if it's true either. Because Star Wars was, I mean, I know he was in American Graffiti, but Star Wars was his breakout as well. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: So I've heard stories in the past that the other two signed on for three movies and he didn't necessarily do that. And, but it's not like he was already Harrison Ford. Like now that would make sense. Claire Fisher: Well, I mean, you mentioned he had also made Raiders of the Lost Ark. Bryan's other comment was, Sheesh, does he play an overgrown teenager everywhere we see him? Because Claire Fisher: American Graffiti Indiana Jones and, now Han, kind of all have this. Overgrown teenager [00:42:00] kind of thing. And Bryan was talking so much about this, I was like, Honey, I'm gonna want you to go watch Blade Runner and come back with a full report so we can, like close this loop of things that Harrison Ford was in in the 80s. Katie Marinello: I don't think it's an unfair, he does seem to play. And at a certain point when you are Harrison Ford and you're one of the highest grossing actors of all time, is it not on you that you're constantly playing these kinds of like sexist overgrown teenagers? Claire Fisher: Don't know, I mean, to what extent do actors own Characters versus, you know, the people who write the characters to be Katie Marinello: a hundred, a hundred percent. But he's had a career now for. 50, 60 years, and he plays the same character. I haven't seen him in Shrinking yet. And I do want to watch that because it looks interesting. Claire Fisher: Well, maybe, our next podcast is a Harrison Ford watch through so that we can look at the way his performances, Katie Marinello: we want to spend like five years on it. Sure. Claire Fisher: I mean, you gotta have some time to build up your fan base. Katie Marinello: Right. Okay.[00:43:00] Claire Fisher: okay. So that's the big scene for you. Katie Marinello: For seven year old me. Sure. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Claire Fisher: For seven year old. me. Claire Fisher: A bigger scene and I was thinking about this. So the, the 1 important thing that insisting on freezing Han and Carbonite to test if this will work establishes is that Darth Vader has decided Luke can't die. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: Darth Vader he was bad in the 1st movie, but he has been really unleashed in this movie. Claire Fisher: He Katie Marinello: Oh my God. Claire Fisher: his screen time force choking people who aren't moving quick enough for him. Katie Marinello: Right. And and then promoting the next guy into his position. Claire Fisher: Exactly, right, Claire Fisher: which becomes almost funny. He does it so Katie Marinello: it, it is almost funny, but he, I think he does do it three times, right? Or he does it twice, but it's three Admirals. Katie Marinello: Um, and yeah, I actually wrote down like, what is the turnover rate in this army? Claire Fisher: We see him [00:44:00] on his knees in front of the Emperor Claire Fisher: and the Emperor saying, we've confirmed that Luke is Anakin Skywalker's long lost son. We're going to have to kill him because he's a threat to us. And. Darth Vader stands up to the Emperor and says, no, let's try to turn him to the dark side instead. Claire Fisher: And then he goes to all this trouble of the slightly convoluted plan to freeze Han and Carbonite so that we'll know that we can freeze Luke and Carbonite and why don't you just tie them up? But anyway I guess if you have a space wizard with telekinesis, tie him up is not that simple, right? So the big climactic duel between Luke and Vader is really interesting because Luke is weaponizing his own mortality against Vader. Claire Fisher: Vader can't let this end with him killing Luke. So you see that Vader, leaps down the stairs. He almost flies with his cape flapping and all to force push him into the carbon freezing chamber and Luke just force jumps out of the carbon freezing chamber, and [00:45:00] Darth Vader starts ripping things off the walls and hurling them at Luke to try Claire Fisher: to knock him down. But like, you're holding a laser sword. If you wanted to kill the guy, just go out Claire Fisher: and just throw your laser sword, you know? And Luke knows he can use his reflexes to survive major falls. And then, this kind of builds up to the big reveal that Darth Vader, as our father had already spoiled for us, is Luke's father, Which comes when he really has Luke on the ropes. He's cut off Luke's sword hand, the lightsaber goes flying away. Bryan actually paused it to ask, remind me how he gets that one back? And I was like, he kind of never does. Katie Marinello: Nope. Not until episode seven, maybe. Claire Fisher: Yeah, and then he throws it in the ocean because he's in an F the Jedi kind of mood, and Claire Fisher: Bryan said, in all fairness, though, F the Jedi. Claire Fisher: Back to that in a minute. Claire Fisher: Darth Vader really has Luke on the ropes. Luke chooses to jump to what could be his death, Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: because he knows that's the one thing Darth Vader can't stand, would be to have him [00:46:00] die. Katie Marinello: Does he know that, though? Claire Fisher: I think he's noticing that when Darth Vader's making the offer, let's go rule the galaxy, father and son. Katie Marinello: Got it. Claire Fisher: To kill yourself is. The Claire Fisher: way out Katie Marinello: ultimate, like, yeah, the ultimate rebellion against that. And I don't know if it's been remastered and remastered, or if I just haven't seen this movie in a while, but him hanging off that, like telephone pole at the end? Like, the very end. After he's fallen down that shaft and he's, hanging upside down on that thing. Katie Marinello: That is genuinely scary. Katie Marinello: Because you get, you get a real sense of hype there, like when you go down a shaft that is, made of metal or whatever. And there's so many shafts in Star Wars buildings, right. That people throw themselves down and they're fine. But when he gets to that telephone pole, basically, and all that's below him is clouds. Katie Marinello: That is genuinely scary. Claire Fisher: Yeah, I used to get terrified by Katie Marinello: And if, and if he didn't have [00:47:00] Space Wizard telekinesis with his twin sister I don't know what the end would have been there. Yeah, telepathy. Well, also telekinesis, but yes, telepathy with his sister. I don't know how he, Yeah, I don't know. That could have been the end of Luke Skywalker. Claire Fisher: Yeah it was very mysterious in the original run how Leia manages to hear him and sense where he is and go back for him in the Millennium Falcon since it had not been established that she had any kind of Claire Fisher: Force powers. Katie Marinello: In fact, it's never really established until the sequels. I know he says it to her in Return of the Jedi, and we'll get there, but she's never really shown using it for anything other than, being tuned in to the emotions of the people around her. AKA, Being a woman, but she does. She saves his life. Katie Marinello: First of all, he calls out for his dead karate teacher three times before he calls out for Leia Claire Fisher: Okay. The man's in a bit of shock having lost his arm. And also his dead karate teacher's ghost has been the most helpful character [00:48:00] all movie to him. Katie Marinello: I suppose he has, but he specifically told him I'm not coming with you. Katie Marinello: And there's been no indication that he is able to manipulate the physical world. Claire Fisher: Let's talk a minute about how Obi Wan doesn't come with him though. Luke is getting trained on Dagobah with Yoda and he finds out that that Leia, and Han, and Chewie, and Threepio, who put together have a lot of information that they could be tortured for, are now being tortured, specifically to get his attention through the Force. Claire Fisher: And he says, I better go rescue them. And Yoda and Obi Wan insist he cannot go. Even though It will eventually be revealed Princess Leia is the potential backup plan for the Chosen One. If she's your second possibility of a Chosen One, and your current Chosen One is insisting on going to do something quite [00:49:00] risky, you should probably rally the troops immediately. Claire Fisher: to protect them both, Katie Marinello: yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Claire Fisher: Which is why when Bryan said, to be fair, F the Jedi. Yeah, the Jedi Katie Marinello: F the Jedi. Katie Marinello: No, I mean, I freaking hate Yoda. Like I hate him. The more I watch him and with the many other you know, we obviously have many more chapters of context for him than anyone watching this in 1980 would have. Katie Marinello: I. Just find him insufferable everything he said, that it sounds profound because he says it backwards, but do or do not, there is no try. What kind of bullshit is that? I can't train him. He's too old. He's too young. He's too. , I didn't get to kidnap him as a child. Katie Marinello: So I can't possibly train this guy, it's, I hate it all. I hate it all so much. Claire Fisher: personally bought me this paperweight Katie Marinello: Yeah, I used to believe that. Claire Fisher: Mind what you have [00:50:00] learned. Save you it can. Katie Marinello: And I'm sure that's true for you, but for Luke, I just found the whole thing exhausting Katie Marinello: and it turns out that he didn't really need Yoda. Katie Marinello: I mean, he kind of whiffs it on this mission. He does not actually rescue them at all. Claire Fisher: And also, he specifically is warned by Leia shouting, Claire Fisher: It's a trap. Claire Fisher: And he Claire Fisher: walks straight in to the trap. And look, he gets trapped and loses a hand and has to fling himself off to his potential death and then use space wizard telepathy to get rescued. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: And his lightsaber is not seen again for 42 years. Katie Marinello: Not only does he end up not rescuing them, they have to rescue him, right? So, technically in this one instance, Yoda and Obi Wan were right. Claire Fisher: Okay, but play this out the other way. He doesn't go to rescue them, Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: so [00:51:00] they get sold to a bounty hunter and or escape Cloud City, and then they do what? Katie Marinello: Well, but what, what does what does he do? Claire Fisher: He comes up with a plan for how to get Han back, as we will see in the next movie. Katie Marinello: I guess that's true. It's unclear to me whose idea that was because, again, there's a whole lot of jump cuts to the next thing. Claire Fisher: I will say my other favorite part of this movie is the Battle of Hoth. Claire Fisher: I don't know if you remember an old friend, Sam, who had all of the action figures for all of the combatants in that movie. The AT AT walkers, the ones with the two legs, the ones with the four legs, the snow troopers, the little rebels, and I don't know if you remember this, but his whole playroom was just constantly the Battle of Hoth. Katie Marinello: The sudden realization that these futuristic ships also have harpoons. Claire Fisher: Oh my God. Luke saying, use your harpoons is right up there with MacCready wants the flamethrower from The [00:52:00] Thing. In terms of how explicable that comment is Katie Marinello: Right, right. Claire Fisher: you have harpoons, Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: it's a good thing you have harpoons. Katie Marinello: Isn't that convenient? Claire Fisher: this happens to be a situation where you need harpos, but what were you planning to use them for? Claire Fisher: thought. Katie Marinello: Plus, so how do you feel when they go to get Luke? It's like open the top hatch. Oh, well, it's very nice that you suddenly have a top hatch. Claire Fisher: Top hatch was always in the model. We just hadn't seen it open before. Katie Marinello: Right, right. Yeah, but I do want to go back just briefly to why I hate Yoda, because I do think that requires a little bit more explanation. Katie Marinello: The wisdom that he's passing on has not worked, right? Even if you don't know anything about the prequels or the sequels, it's been established that Anakin Skywalker hunted down and killed all the Jedi, right? Claire Fisher: Well, no, Darth Vader. We don't find out that was Anakin Claire Fisher: Skywalker Katie Marinello: Sorry. Darth Vader. Yes. It's been established that Darth Vader hunted and exterminated the Jedi, basically, [00:53:00] and so it's very much a stuck in your, this is how it's always been done. Katie Marinello: So how could we possibly do it any differently this time? Right? Katie Marinello: And then there is, when you do add the context of the larger story, the concept that he accidentally unleashed wizard fascism on the galaxy and then went and hid out in the swamp for 20 years. And I think that if you accidentally unleash fascism, you should be responsible for what happens next and not just let planets get I mean, he's the most force sensitive being in the galaxy. Katie Marinello: He felt Alderaan explode, probably felt a million other you know, travesties that have occurred in the past 20 some odd years. And, but he's just waiting around. Claire Fisher: There's also, he's a hypocrite in terms of like, Oh, I don't think I can train this one. Well, you've had access to him since he was a [00:54:00] literal newborn. Claire Fisher: You could have raised him up any way you wanted, right? You could have sent him anywhere. In the galaxy. You could have gone with him anywhere in the galaxy, and you didn't, so don't complain. Katie Marinello: He could have lived on Dagobah for, with you for 20 years. Like it's just, it makes no sense. And then let's talk about this in the context of what week we watched it. Claire Fisher: What weeks did we watch it, Katie? Katie Marinello: So I, I personally watched it. Six, six days after the inauguration of Donald for the second term. And there's just no way to decontextualize this. I think from fascism in all of its many forms you know, you can say it's Vietnam. You can say it's Nazi Germany. You can say [00:55:00] the prequels are a hundred percent. Katie Marinello: Early 2000s USA. But Lando decides the best way to protect himself and his fortune and his people who work for him is to acquiesce to the to the emperor's demands or to the empire's demands and sell out his best friend. Granted, we don't know how long it's been since I've seen each other, but Claire Fisher: But he's selling out a lot of people Katie Marinello: a lot of people, Claire Fisher: the whole city is gonna come under Imperial Katie Marinello: right. But he thinks it's not right. So they promise him that they will. Leave him alone. Deregulate. Right? Or not, not, not regulate. They have not regulated and they will not, they will continue to not regulate Katie Marinello: and that they will only take Han Solo, not Princess Leia or the Wookiee. And then they immediately double cross him on all of that, Katie Marinello: We are going to take over the city. We are going to leave garrisons behind. We are, [00:56:00] and Leah and the Wookiee are coming to our are coming with me basically, and so he decides at that moment to double cross the double crossers and become the hero. We're not seeing a lot of that this week. Katie Marinello: We're seeing a lot of the first part. We're seeing a lot of the, well, I have to protect my assets. So I guess I'm just going to acquiesce. Claire Fisher: just, I'll fall on my knees, Claire Fisher: and, remove my diversity statements from my mission statement. And Katie Marinello: Donate money to the Emperor's inauguration fund, because clearly this is what the people want this time. Right. So eight years ago, it was all about not wanting to be associated. Katie Marinello: And you know, Lando says, Oh, we've been. You know, we've been able to fly under the radar we don't fall within the Federation or whatever, and we're not in the mining Claire Fisher: guild, Katie Marinello: guild either. Katie Marinello: And I've just made a deal that will secure [00:57:00] our safety from the emperor forever. Claire Fisher: No, it won't. Katie Marinello: No, it won't. There is no safety. Claire Fisher: Yeah, there is no safety when you're trying to negotiate a boundary with Someone whose word is no good. Katie Marinello: How can you uphold the norms when the other side doesn't have any? Claire Fisher: Right. Claire Fisher: I mean, Darth Vader helpfully looks as evil as possible so you can Claire Fisher: see him coming. Katie Marinello: yes. If Trump or any of the many other fascists that are coming to power right now, Would just wear a cape. Maybe we would be. Claire Fisher: Lando's wearing a cape too, though. Claire Fisher: We can't blame it on the cape. Katie Marinello: Well, maybe we can. Maybe we should have immediately not trusted him because he was wearing a cape. Claire Fisher: Anyway Billy Dee Williams has said that his children's friends would say, why did you sell out Han? And he would say, cause Lando felt he had other responsibilities and he needed to protect other people more than he needed Han's friendship, which makes sense as a character motivation. And that's the thing that absolutely [00:58:00] happens in real life. Claire Fisher: But let me tell you, when the person you sold out to turns on you, you will wish you had your friend back Claire Fisher: I opened up about this a little bit on social media, but long ago , I was involved in a friendship that turned toxic and abusive. And I, to appease this person who was constantly making me miserable, cut off people that he was fighting with. And he was always fighting with Claire Fisher: somebody. Claire Fisher: When eventually I realized that I needed to get him out of my life, or I was possibly going to die, I was in an awkward situation of. Wondering if I was ever going to be able to speak to those people again. Claire Fisher: And I did reach out. I did make apologies in some cases. And one of them is my friend again, Claire Fisher: but only one. Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: And I got a second chance with that person that I did not deserve because I let the bully Claire Fisher: be the reason I stopped speaking to. [00:59:00] Someone who had been good to me Claire Fisher: and he had every reason to say he didn't want to talk to me ever again Claire Fisher: because of the way I had behaved under the influence of a bully, but he took me back. Claire Fisher: And, and I appreciate that very much. I started dreaming of my ex bully Claire Fisher: three nights before the inauguration. Claire Fisher: And I dreamed of him every night and in every dream, it was the same. He showed up as someone's guest at a social event, and I was expected to play along, be the bigger person, just stay quiet, don't make a fuss. That is being done to us politically. We are expected to think that because this person is back in power, that whatever they did the first time is something we should forget about and that Claire Fisher: whatever they're doing now is something we should learn to live with. Claire Fisher: It's not true. Don't let them convince you that this is normal. Don't let the bully be the reason you cut off your friends. Claire Fisher: One day you're going to wish you had your friends back. Claire Fisher: Don't let the bully, in this case, be the reason why you cut [01:00:00] off your friend the U. S. Constitution or all of the really nice laws that we have in place. Don't let him take those away because you will want them back. More when he gets even worse. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Yeah. Claire Fisher: that's all I'll say about it. Katie Marinello: Lando has to make some amends about the actions that he took, right? He's the first one to go in to Jabba's world, which we will see in a couple of years when we get to that, and it's not really addressed again. Katie Marinello: And I kind of wish it was. Katie Marinello: We'll talk about this more in the next movie, but the redemption of Anakin Skywalker, I have a hard time with in the broader context of great. You saved one person. How many have you murdered? And I'm not, obviously there's the whole forgiveness thing, whatever. Katie Marinello: But the fact that he shows up at the end as a force ghost is just. I don't believe that he's able [01:01:00] to immediately transcend into whatever the afterlife is if, if there is one for them, because come on. Claire Fisher: yeah, well that's an interesting ethical question that I think we should discuss in the Return of the Claire Fisher: Jedi. Lando doesn't just go to get Han back. He tells everyone to evacuate Cloud City. Claire Fisher: He goes to get Han back. He gets them onto the Millennium Falcon. You know, he gets, Katie Marinello: Flies the Illuminati and Falcon with Chewie. Claire Fisher: Luke, Leia, Chewie, and the droids to safety. Then he goes to get Han back, infiltrating a dangerous warlord's lair. And he leads the attack run on the second Death Star. So, like, he has to go through things. Claire Fisher: And I believe one of his good lines, There weren't that many good lines in The Rise of Skywalker, right, but, one of the things he says is, you know, someone says, how, how can we do this? Claire Fisher: And he says, well, we never did it alone. Claire Fisher: Right? So Lando's arc, at least, is actually, you actually have to put in the [01:02:00] work to show you're Claire Fisher: sorry and to make things right before we should accept you back into our lives, Claire Fisher: right? Katie Marinello: Really good point. That's a really good point. I know I said trauma bonding earlier, but from everything we know about fighting fascism, the way you do it is through community, right? The way you do it is through building communities. So, sure, we weren't with them every battle for those three years between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, so to us it might look like kind of superficial relationships. Katie Marinello: But Claire Fisher: no, it doesn't look at like a superficial relationship at all. Katie Marinello: no, Claire Fisher: Han and Luke are obviously best friends in the first act of this Claire Fisher: movie. And they barely knew each other last time, Katie Marinello: That's true. That's true. Claire Fisher: Han and Leia had just met and now they have, you know, Katie Marinello: This weird will, they, won't they? Yes, but we talked about like, we don't really know the nature of that Claire Fisher: No. Katie Marinello: friendship. Claire Fisher: But it's pretty obvious. I mean, the way Han runs out into a blizzard to get Luke and, gets him [01:03:00] inside the carcass of a Tauntaun and then sets up a tent and they huddle all night for warmth. You see that that is a friendship where neither of them would ever leave the other behind. Katie Marinello: You're absolutely. Yeah, you're right. I, I do believe the relationship between Luke and Han, but they're not in this movie together that much. Claire Fisher: In the first act. Katie Marinello: Right I don't necessarily buy it with, again, going back to Leia, like, we just don't get that much from her to really understand where she is with either of them, really. Katie Marinello: I believe she's friends with them, I believe that they're, they've been fighting for three years, but I don't know that I've yeah, we just don't get that much from her, I think we've agreed on that. Claire Fisher: Well want me to bring us some trivia here on a lighter note? Katie Marinello: Oh, trivia, yay! Claire Fisher: Okay Han and Luke both kiss or are kissed by Leia in this movie. Do you think it is that Luke and Leia kiss more often, Leia and Han kiss more often, or they kiss an exactly equal number of times? Katie Marinello: I would say it was Han and Leia, but that seems too [01:04:00] obvious. So it must be, Claire Fisher: equal number of times. Katie Marinello: she kisses him twice. She kisses Luke Claire Fisher: twice. Claire Fisher: and she kisses Han twice. Claire Fisher: Luke in the infirmary in the beginning and then after he's lost his hand and she's providing first aid on the Millennium Katie Marinello: she kisses him on the lips. Claire Fisher: Yes, because I rewound to double check because I knew you were going to ask Katie Marinello: No, I definitely, I definitely remember doing a double take. Like, did she just, okay. Claire Fisher: Yeah, Claire Fisher: by the way that's not accepted first aid protocol, but you know. Katie Marinello: What the healing of a woman's touch. Isn't Katie Marinello: true. Love's kit. Isn't she technically a Disney princess now? True love's kiss. Claire Fisher: She kisses Han right before he gets frozen, and once when they're alone on the Millennium Falcon. So in the opening scroll text, they call the Imperial ships a Starfleet, all one word with a capital S. Katie Marinello: Oh, Claire Fisher: an homage to [01:05:00] Star Trek and the Trekkies who, again, their enthusiasm for science fiction was a role, a factor in Star Wars success. Katie Marinello: absolutely. Absolutely. And then there's one other Star Trek reference later, right? Claire Fisher: With the cloaking device? Katie Marinello: cloaking device. Claire Fisher: cloaking devices, I don't know if Star Trek originated that idea, but it did popularize it. Claire Fisher: We saw Luke training on a lightsaber in the first movie, but when does he first use a lightsaber in Katie Marinello: Against the creature thingy. Claire Fisher: Wampa. Yeah, cuts off a wampa's arm. I once got this one wrong in Star Wars Trivial Pursuit. Claire Fisher: On the launch platform on Cloud City, what device does R2 D2 deploy to cover the crew's escape to the Millennium Falcon? Katie Marinello: Is that smoke? Claire Fisher: It's supposed to be a fire extinguisher. Katie Marinello: Okay. Claire Fisher: And last thing I'll mention three times in the movie, Luke tells R two to stay somewhere either in his X-Wing or with the camp on Deba and R two disobeys all three times. Katie Marinello: [01:06:00] Mm-hmm Claire Fisher: Revenge of the STH would eventually retcon this to be because the last thing Anakin ever said to R two was stay with the ship. And then he never came back. Katie Marinello: mm Claire Fisher: So, remember, R2 D2 is canonically the only being who knows the full Claire Fisher: There's thousands of other pieces of trivia about this movie, but you know, I just, I don't know. Katie Marinello: You could read entire books on Entire books, yeah. Katie Marinello: Let's talk about the Hutt Slayer. Claire Fisher: okay. I will say mad props for the snark in this movie. Katie Marinello: Oh, snark. I did not like it this time around. Yeah. It really started to grade on me. Katie Marinello: I don't know. I don't like, I, maybe I did when I was younger, I do not like the dynamic between people when they can only talk in, in sarcasm. Claire Fisher: Oh, well, that's gone out of style now, but Claire Fisher: it's a it's a thing. Katie Marinello: a trope and it works. I mean, it works for her character, but I think I have to dock her a Hutz layer on this one. Katie Marinello: [01:07:00] We gave her 4 out of 5 in Star Wars A New Hope because she did not actually slay a Hutt. But I think she's got, I think I have to give her at most a 3 on this one because I just don't feel like she had the kind of agency that we saw in the first one. Claire Fisher: I'm still gonna give her four. Claire Fisher: Because of the line, someday you're going to be wrong and I just hope I'm here to see it. Katie Marinello: But she takes it back! Claire Fisher: Would it help if I got out and pushed? Claire Fisher: You don't have to do this to impress me. Claire Fisher: You certainly have a way with people after you punched somebody. I mean, come on! Katie Marinello: Okay. The snark is good. She has some great lines. I still I'm giving her a three. Claire Fisher: I'm giving her a four. Katie Marinello: Okay. Are we allowed to do that? Does she get a three and a half? Claire Fisher: I guess she does. Katie Marinello: Okay. Fair enough. Claire Fisher: Alright, three and a half out of five Hutzlayers. Katie Marinello: So what are we watching next week?[01:08:00] Claire Fisher: The Blues Brothers. Katie Marinello: The Blues Brothers. Katie Marinello: A movie I have heard of and know nothing about. Claire Fisher: It's a movie I have heard of and know one thing about. Katie Marinello: Carrie Fisher's in it? Claire Fisher: No, the Catholic Church once endorsed it as a good movie about Catholic values. Katie Marinello: Oh good, can't wait. Claire Fisher: It, everyone was kind of surprised by that, actually. Katie Marinello: Yeah, well, maybe this is the one where she's not engaged and also having sex with somebody else. Claire Fisher: She did apparently get engaged to one of her co stars on the set of the Blues Brothers, but then she got back together with Paul Simon instead of marrying him. So Claire Fisher: perhaps we'll be talking about that trivia very soon. Katie Marinello: Perhaps. Claire Fisher: Until then, just remember, the immortal words, Of our space grandma. If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true. And that's unacceptable. Katie Marinello: Indeed. May the force be with you. Claire Fisher: May the force be with you. Katie Marinello: Thanks for listening to [01:09:00] another episode of Carried Far, Far Away. This podcast is hosted, produced, edited, re-edited, obsessed over, and loved by Katie Marinello and Claire Fisher. You can follow the show on Facebook and Instagram at Carried Away Pod. You can email us at awaycarriedpod@gmail.com. You can follow Claire at Dead Fictional Girlfriends and Katie at Katiedaway. All clips used in this podcast are done so under the protection of fair use. Have a wonderful week and may the force be with you. Claire Fisher: And now, our Space Grandma Wisdom of the Week. Katie Marinello: There is no point at which you can say, well, I'm successful now, I might as well take a nap.