Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
Only stuff that works
Today I'm back again with my friend and colleague, Dr. Zach Rochelle, author of Just Tell Them.
Host of Progressively Incorrect and the director of North America Step Lab.
So today Zach and I have another episode of Thinking Out Loud where we discuss, relevant topics in education.
Today we are talking about a perennial debate.
Should the best teachers be a coach or.
Who should be the coach?
I think you're gonna enjoy this one.
Zach Groshell: Welcome back everyone to Thinking Out Loud, our ongoing series about coaching and leadership with my friend Jean Taver.
Jean, how are you doing today?
I.
Gene Tavernetti: you know what?
I am?
Happy, Zach.
How are you doing?
Zach Groshell: I'm feeling great.
I'm feeling energized as the weather gets a little better around here, and I mowed my lawn for the first time yesterday.
And we're gonna mow some metaphorical lawns now with this new topic.
Are you excited?
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
Wow.
That's pretty good Zach.
Pretty good.
And you know, one other thing I think we need to include in our little introduction to we're thinking out loud, is that also embedded in this, that.
That undergirds everything is instruction.
Zach Groshell: Absolutely.
What do you mean by that?
Can you speak further on that?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, just that, you know, so many people when they think about coaching they don't think about it.
With respect to instruction about designing lessons, about developing lessons because you read so much about these discreet skills that are necessary.
I'll give you an example.
You know, you should have a procedure to get your kids into the classroom.
You should have a procedure, you know, when they sit down, that there's some sort of do now or something that they do, and yet.
We still have to teach a lesson.
You have to explain it.
Well, right, Zach?
You just, it's just tell them.
So there are so much more than many of the issues that get talked about in coaching.
And I just want folks to realize that, that we're looking at it from a broader perspective,
good instruction, kids are learning and kids are able to perform.
Zach Groshell: Absolutely.
And I think I, it's funny, I like that you have two books that kind of pair well, like, you know, like cheese and wine.
We've got maximizing Coaching Cycles and Teach Fast.
Teach Fast really focuses in.
On great effective instruction.
And it's on my shelf right now.
Let's go into our question.
So, we always try to frame these episodes around a question, and this one comes up a lot around instructional coaching.
I think a lot of people think that this is the reason why coaching cannot work at scale, perhaps.
So the question is, should we allow the best teachers to become.
Coaches and I will couch that in, in, in the argument that when.
Great teachers get to the pinnacle of their expertise and we take them out of the classroom and we make them coaches that we are essentially robbing all of those children of the opportunity for a great teacher.
And in order to give this position that might not be as effective for those children as if they remained a teacher.
Have you heard this before?
Gene Tavernetti: Oh, gosh, have I heard it before?
You know, if you're a coach, if you're an administrator, you've heard it before and it's interesting.
I think that question, there's just a whole lot to unpack in that question, you know?
And, uh, one of the, one of the things is the origin of the question itself.
And I think there have been legitimate concerns from teachers having coaches who are not effective.
And one of the reasons was that they weren't very good teachers.
Zach Groshell: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: And so now they think, you know, is the counterpoint true?
Is, you know, should we have the best teachers?
So I think that's kind of the origin and I think we need to think about as we have this discussion, is to think about.
That's one of the, that's one of the issues.
Zach Groshell: Well, I've definitely I definitely feel like it's a barrier for coaches to be able to recognize great instruction if they couldn't even recognize it in their own classroom.
And I know it's perhaps possible hypothetically.
That you can I always use the metaphor coming out of sports where it, you know, we, we have LeBron James.
He's at the pinnacle of his of the game.
There's very few people that really have any business.
Discussing his jump shot or his form, but he still has coaches and so even the best athletes have coaches.
And these coaches were not as accomplished athletes as the top athletes like LeBron James, but there are still coaches.
So it's possible to work with another person who's a weaker.
Teach who was a weaker teacher than you because of their ability to communicate these ideas and the ability to observe and be a second set of eyes for you.
But I do find it's a barrier.
If you were really a poor teacher for you to make a lot of progress as a coach, I mean, do you, do we agree on that?
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, no, you can't be a poor teacher, but you don't have to be.
The best.
And I think, you know, to extend the sports metaphor a little bit, to include another sport, you know, or all sports, you will hear commentators talk about some head coach or a manager in baseball and they will say, wow, we always knew.
That this is where this person was heading, just because of not their ability in the sport, but their understanding of the sport and the ability to share that with folks.
So, well it also begs the question, what does it mean to be the best teacher?
Zach Groshell: I mean, we know that it's very difficult to evaluate teaching performance, right?
So it's hard to locate a teacher on a rubric with a lot of precision.
That's the first piece.
I guess it's just the impressions that people have in the school of who, who's doing the best job or who's the most liked.
Maybe we have a data point who has the best data with their students.
But yeah, speak further about that because I'm in what you're going towards.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, you know, you know this as a coach.
I mean, one of the things as a coach or an administrator is that you get to see everybody, you know, you get to see all the teachers, and I may go into Zach's classroom and he has the best procedures for kids coming into class and getting started.
He has the best transition procedures.
But you know what?
Poor old Zach can't explain a concept.
You know?
He just can't.
Alright, so, but Zach is still valuable as a person on staff.
For as an exemplar to come in, let's go.
You know, let's go watch Zach, watch how he does this.
Let's do that and then no, let's leave.
'cause we don't need to see where it falls apart.
Okay.
And then you go to somebody else who is.
Terrific at doing the explanations and getting kids to involved in the explanation and, you know, it's a rapid the class moves fast and there's lots of opportunities to respond, but maybe not so strong in, in other areas.
So, you know, it is rare that embodied in one teacher are all these qualities that we look for.
Having said that, you could walk through a school and visit classrooms for 15 minutes, you know, in each classroom, and you don't know why, but you know what?
Wow.
That is a good teacher, that is a good teacher because it's not a checklist, it's it, you know, it's like what does, I can't remember how the mob talks about it but basically going from technique to artistry.
He doesn't like, he doesn't call it that but that's kind of the way I talk about it, where they put those things together and they make these techniques their own and they flow seamlessly and the kids learn.
The kids learn.
I.
Zach Groshell: So, so what you're saying is that right.
If you're not visiting classrooms a lot, you may be ignorant to the fact that actually there's a huge spread of abilities.
And not only that, it's not just like everyone's on a continuum, but there are multiple components to instruction because instruction is complex that you would find.
You would find people that specialize or are very solid in behavior or in writing curriculum or in in, in, in assessment.
Very rare to find someone anyway, who has all of these components working together.
And even still, I kind of want to extend that last point.
If you did find that person who's just the perfect mix of all the skills and components and they're weaving them together, they may be, it's such an expert sort of.
Artistic level with it that they may not be very good at communicating it, or even they may be that person who really doesn't actually understand the science that underpins it and or how adults might, you know, the metaphor that an adult would need to explain that particular technique.
They just do it automatically.
So what I'm thinking we're getting at is there's just, there's a, it's a lot more complex than the top teacher.
Gets taken out of the classroom and basically all the scores plummet in that one pocket of the school because now they take on a lazier job, is what I'm hearing.
Gene Tavernetti: Yes.
Well, and there's one other thing about that.
Each of these even if we're taking a look at the components and we're taking a look at the artistry maybe it's Jo, it's not my style.
Maybe I go into Dr. Elle's classroom and I watch him and he can weave these stories and he can pull the kids in.
That's not me.
I'm more of a technician, and you know what?
My kids still perform.
So I think that's the other thing.
It's not.
It's not monolithic.
There are very, that's what's great about teaching the different personalities can come across and still be effective.
And so that's another thing.
And what is it what is it?
A halo effect.
You go in and you expect somebody to be good and no matter what they do, you think it's great.
Maybe not.
So it's difficult.
But there's one other thing, Zach, moving on a little bit, and that is in, when you set this up, you were talking about, you know, pulling this teacher out of the classroom.
I don't know where, where they think that happens.
I mean, teachers have some agency and con some contractual agency.
It's just not, I'm pulling you out and now you're gonna become a coach.
Who, who thinks that can happen?
Zach Groshell: Right.
Like I think what you're getting at is why do we even assume that the quote unquote best teacher even wants to be a coach?
Right.
And this is not even, we didn't even talk about personality of the, of.
The teacher when it comes to per.
Perhaps their professional obligations.
I've known a lot of very effective teachers in terms of the, in terms of the kids performing, who I would not want to be in a feedback conversation with anybody because they're rude.
There's somebody that is a very difficult.
Person or colleague to work with?
We there are a lot of people that we would all agree if we knew this person.
And, you know, in the business world we call that sort of a toxic personality.
We know these people would not be suited to.
Be in this number of pe of their peers, classrooms, observing a very vulnerable performance by other people.
We would, it doesn't matter how effective of a teacher they were, we would we wouldn't want that, that, that position to be filled by them anyway.
I mean, I mean, I'm sure you agree.
Gene Tavernetti: It's a different skillset.
It's a different skillset and it is one that some people are very good with children, and I'm kind of, rephrasing what you said.
Some people are very good with children, not good with adults.
They're very good when they're in a position of authority, not good when they're partnering with somebody.
And it it's just very, it's just very different, you know, that there's an assumption, you know, that the best teacher, whatever that is, you know, would be the best person to assist.
Having said that I still think that they have so much to give.
So much to offer a staff, even if they don't have the official title of coach, and they're not officially going in and working one-on-one with teachers.
I mean, there's so much that they could do.
Zach Groshell: So let's go back.
Just a step to you.
You know, you said there's this.
Hypothetical that's implied in should we allow the best teachers to become coaches, where there's a position that opens up in a building, which by the way, almost never happens if you're in a district, right?
There are district pools.
There's this whole, right, but let's try to take this question seriously because I kind of think it's silly.
Should we allow the best teachers to become coaches?
There's a position that opens up.
In a building, the only people I suppose that are really you know, have a potential to be hired for it are internal and some external hires, and they're gonna do this.
They're gonna do this little competition to get this one position.
And the principal has to make this decision who, you know, and then they look, okay, my best teacher is this person and I'm gonna bring it in.
I'm gonna bring them out of the classroom.
You've done some.
You did some like really simple math that kind of, I thought illuminated this around like the effectiveness of the te of this teacher and perhaps the spillover effects of them spreading that expertise and actually coaching other people.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
You know, the, now we're assuming that this good teacher would be a good coach and would be able to do this if that were the case.
And I should have done, I should have at least done this on a back of a napkin, but let's say that they're in a department, let's say it's a secondary, you know, and they're in the department with with five teachers, and each of those teachers are.
Average.
Let's say on a scale of one to a hundred, there's 70 fives and he is a hundred, you know, so even if they put a, He or she left the classroom and they put another 70 teacher in there, he would be able to raise everybody probably to 85.
And then the net effect is there's greater performance going on average because it was able to help all of these things.
Right now, if I'm a principal or I'm a counselor, putting kids in classes, doing their programs.
You know, I'm making the decision about.
Which classroom I'm gonna put a kid in knowing that this classroom is much better.
And that's a tough thing to have to make that decision.
In elementary, your principals are making that decision, and that's tough because you know you're leaving some kids behind.
So the idea of having the best teacher is raising the level of competence of everybody.
By utilizing that expertise.
Zach Groshell: You have, You have a 100 teacher.
You take them out of the classroom.
Now the kids get a 70 teacher.
That's unfortunate.
For them.
But the parallel is true in any other workplace where you have to distribute your talent in the most strategic way possible.
Right?
In basketball, you have to take your your best players off the court or make sure your second best players on the court when you're first best players off the court.
We do this everywhere, right?
And and basically the hope is with a pro, with proper training.
For this coach and proper support from the administration, that they actually would raise the bar of all the teachers easily easily making it so that 30% evaporates and probably they get much better results from their teachers.
I had that experience.
I mean, I can give loads of sort of school-wide initiatives that I was a part of around, for example, do nows and entry routines where the whole school is was basically a mess.
Every single teacher was doing something different.
And so what we did was we just streamlined the do Nows streamlined the entry procedures, made sure everybody got notebooks ordered, and we did.
The first 10 minutes of class was very standardized.
The whole class was calm and quiet during transition, I mean, after transitions and lessons started on time and they became the classrooms became much more productive as a result of that initiative.
I. You could say a principal should have done that, but this just shows again, the person asking this question doesn't know how schools run.
Principals don't have enough time to be doing all of these different initiatives when They are at this point in time, given so much external pressure to meet, to do certain bureaucratic things and formalities and meet with parents, and they have all of these responsibilities Yes.
In tandem with a coach.
They can is the best way that they can, you know, they can work on this, but the whole reason we have these coaches is the principals aren't getting the instructional piece done.
Gene Tavernetti: Right.
And it is it's a big job.
You know, the, being a principal is a big job.
And I think the coach it wa it was a good addition to the, hi, I don't wanna say hierarchy, but it was a good atti good addition to the structure of the school because their focus should be on instruction, improving instruction.
So, and everybody else would have a split attention.
And when you have a split attention in a school, it's urgent things, emergencies that you have to take care of and it's very easy to get distracted.
But I think, you know, there's one more thing that I think that a principal needs to do or district leaders is understand the idea that there is, that people, and I haven't seen research lately but I remember reading research that people change what they do or how they do it every seven years.
It's probably more frequently now.
So to me if my, if I'm an administrator and one of my best teachers came in and said, you know, I'm interested in that I'm interested in that coaching position, that opened up.
And I told that person, no, you're too good in the classroom.
You think that teacher would just, that good teacher would just turn around and say, okay, well I guess I'm not gonna get it.
Guess what?
You're a good teacher.
They've got lots of options.
They could go to another school.
They're gonna go become an administrator.
They're gonna, they're just, you know, we don't have that sort of authority over and control over people.
Because you'll, I mean, Ken, do you know of any school district that's not looking for good teachers?
so just the idea is, oh, I'm gonna allow them to do that, or I'm gonna put 'em in that position.
That's no I don't know.
You're, you don't have the power you think you have over an individual
Zach Groshell: Abso Absolutely.
And right and so, so, so, so we have left the classroom and we see.
Things from a certain perspective.
For me, it's relatively new to be out of the classroom and so I'm sort of grappling with that.
But the you're right, right?
The it's kind of laughable in a way that, that.
You know, we, maybe it's just because people are to give people some grace in this.
They're thinking of like a big hypothetical.
They're trying to be a philosopher.
Should the larger system include these coaches when in fact coaching is here and coaching is in many different districts.
And in addition to that, there are many different positions that leverage different skill sets that a teacher could possibly pursue.
You're telling me that.
This teacher is in your building.
They show a lot of ambition.
They show a lot of curiosity.
They go to research ed, and they read lots of books, and they're super excited about, you know, online presenting and things like that.
And you're telling me you're, you know, you're gonna say to them you know, your position, your spot is to be a teacher for the next 40 years in that same classroom, or else you're gonna harm each of these children for, you know, what an absurd premise.
These, that same person, let me tell you what they will do.
You don't give them that coaching spot.
They're gonna move to a different school.
They're gonna find a different coaching spot.
They're gonna become a curriculum coordinator, a district leader.
They might become an administrator.
And guess what?
That wasn't even in their skillset.
Their skillset was the coach instruction.
Or they're gonna become what the people who say this.
Say this whole thing about the best teachers, they're gonna become that role.
The people that are saying this are consultants, they're gonna go out and be the same people that are criticizing instructional coaching.
And maybe they're, maybe these consultants are criticizing instructional coaching just because they didn't get into instructional coaching and they have a, you know, they have a different method.
They would like to, they would like other people to adopt.
I just think it's silly in a way I.
Gene Tavernetti: I mean we could bottom line this and say, do we want, coaches to be competent.
Yes.
You know, is it necessarily that they're the best that they were the best teachers?
No.
Could they have been?
Maybe, but it's not necessary.
And to hold them up in that way I think is unfair.
If they did get that position, you know, that they were the best teacher.
Because let's, okay, let's go to, let's get back in reality again with a site school site.
Imagine that I'm the principal and I'm introducing our new instructional coach, Zach, who was our, who was a top teacher, say everybody knows Zach was one of the best teachers we had.
How is that go over with the staff?
I mean, that is, he was, huh?
I'll be darned.
I never knew that.
I never thought, you know, not that, not that teachers are petty, but they don't.
They weren't in your classrooms.
You could be or maybe you're not.
But the reality is that many people believe they should be in the position of coach I. Okay, now, you know, they think, well, I could do a better job.
I would be able to do a better job.
Now here's the irony though, or the paradox.
I never, I can never remember which one it is, but it's like, when it's time to go to the prom and somebody asks you to go to the prom who you don't like, and.
It's not that you wanted to go to the prom necessarily, it's that you just wanted to be asked.
You know, and I think many of the teachers, they don't wanna be coaches, but they had wanted to be asked because of the recognition that was given to the person who was chosen.
I just I just think the whole idea of the best teacher as coach is rot with problems.
I. To even couch it that way when you're hiring somebody.
Zach Groshell: And you know, the, this position PE a lot of, in a lot of districts, the instructional coaching position is a teacher position.
It's a union position.
It is not a, it's it's paid the same amount without a stipend.
And these coaches are doing a lot of afterschool work, A lot of weekends thing, they have the cell phone of their principal.
This is one of the things that.
It's also interesting that you just kind of, you're implying is that if I just want to be asked to be this position that I actually don't really want to do, but maybe it's also because I see that a lot of the, you know, I'm tired, I'm working my butt off for these kids and going through the grind of teaching, maybe this job will be a lot easier for me.
I just, I suppose it could be easier if you're one of the coaches that stays in their office and makes Excel spreadsheets, but the, there, in my experience working as a coach, that comes with a huge amount of responsibility for the building that we could argue all day.
May or may not be fair to put on the coach, but it is not in all schools True that the coaching position is just.
Easier and that it is just this cush job that you get to walk around with your, with, you know, with your clipboard and just pretend like you're working.
Gosh we were really in the thick of it as coaches doing administrator light type of tasks in addition to instructional coaching.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
And that that's a whole another episode too with respect to, you know, what the leadership to should do to ensure that the coaching program works.
And I just think it should be stipulated that everybody works hard.
You know, if you're doing a good job, everybody is working hard.
And that's why I go back to this idea of, you know, changing either what you do or how you do it every five to seven years is because we have this idea that you've heard me rail about before, that you know, to be a teacher, you need to be a hero.
You need to have superpowers.
You know what, it's a job.
And we want people to be good at their job, and we wanna help them and support them to be good at their job.
But if they wanna do something else after they've taught for five or 10 years, let's help 'em.
You know?
Otherwise, you're just gonna have an unhappy person and who's not gonna be as productive as they were before.
So, um.
I just think there's enough hard work to go around and we need to appreciate that everybody is, work, is working hard or at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they are because we know there are exceptions, you know?
But I.
Zach Groshell: So we've addressed this question.
Should we allow the best teachers to become coaches?
I'm gonna say.
That question is odd and we tried to unpack it and the end of the day it's it's out of your hands, random commentator what other people, other adults do.
And and if there is somebody that shows the appreciation for instruction that is required for that position, that demonstrates the capacity to work with adults and to communicate things.
Fluently and practically and and decides to move into that position that we support them to get.
'cause that there, that's not all you need to know is how to be a good teacher.
You need to also know how to coach.
And so we support that person.
And who knows the life is like is like, you know, overlapping waves.
That person might come back into the classroom and they might go on and do something else, and that, that would be my sort of main answer to this.
What about yours?
Gene Tavernetti: You know, I'm just gonna go along with everything that you said.
The it is not up to us.
And if you're an administrator who thinks you can keep.
An excellent employee by fulfilling your needs because I need that teacher.
You're fooling yourself.
Because we need to look out for the needs of our staff beyond you know, they get good scores of our kids.
Zach Groshell: Love it.
Well, Jean, I really enjoyed this conversation as usual listeners, thank you so much for.
Tuning into our special miniseries, thinking out Loud, which is, it's more than a miniseries, it's an ongoing series.
We appreciate your support.
If you could give this a five star, spread it around to a coach or to a principal, we would really appreciate it.
Take care.
Gene Tavernetti: Thanks, Zach.
If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.
Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.
Tesscg.
com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.
Talk to you soon