Intro: when you don't feel your best, do the thing anyway,
Fake Famous,
H&M is 40 shades of putty,
Stitch Fix,
Let Me Run This By You: Selfie vacations,
Paul Stuart,
rent a fake jet, Tevas, we are old enough to accidentally wear cool clothes.
Interview: We talk to
Mickey O'Sullivan about body image, sibling relationships, getting bullied,
Illinois State University,
The Wake,
Henry Moore is Melting at The Athenaeum, addiction,
Sophia Bush,
Chicago PD,
Casey Affleck.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina .
3 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
3 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (35s):
Isolation is a funny thing because it's both the thing that you feel drawn towards when you don't feel well. But it's also the thing that, you know, that makes it worse. And I saw another thing that said, the more comfortable you get with you and who you are, the less likely you're going to want to isolate because it does, you know, it it's effort to be who you are when you're, you know, not kind of sinked up. Yeah. That's all just to say that when my kids have their aches and pains and two of my kids are real vocal about every single sensation they ever have in their body at any given time. Like, I can't think of a time where these two leave the house where I haven't heard my foot hurts.
2 (1m 20s):
My shoulder hurts. I have a headache. My stomach hurts. It hurts when I do this. And I, I believe it all. And yet I'm like, yeah, but if you stay home, I'm not going to let you be on a screen. So you're just going to literally be staring at the wall, feeling that I wouldn't, you rather go to school. Right.
1 (1m 38s):
Interesting. But Gina, it has taken me to 46 to actually realize that. So they're like, literally like a year ago, I probably would've been like, you know what, I'm just gonna stay home. And like, I have a headache, but like now I realize like, oh no, I think it's also like, time is slipping by like, I'm getting older, we're marching towards death. Like I got to get outside
2 (2m 3s):
Dude. And
1 (2m 4s):
You know, so like, I, I think it takes some what it takes, but yeah, man, I know that this pandemic has created the sense that the outside world is dangerous because literally it was, so it is like a war in that we, I felt like we were in a war when, when this all started, it was two years ago this month. Right. So right. I came to visit and then all to you and then all hell broke loose. And it, yeah, it created this thing of like the danger is outside the home. And so now it's like so easy to, but I actually realize that I feel worse at home because not only then do I have a headache, I have to deal with my fucking dog.
1 (2m 52s):
Who's a pain in the ass and get triggered by my husband who I think should be doing his job differently. And I hear him because we're in a teeny house. So that's torture. That's worse.
2 (3m 3s):
That's terrible. That's no good. My corollary for that is just, I do spend all of my, I mean, I do my, everything I do is, is at my house. I take care of my house. I take care of my kids and then I write and, and work, work on, you know, artistic stuff when you're home and your office, maybe miles experiences this too. Like you don't, you're never not at work in a way. So you're, I gotta do some, I gotta do something to have more of a separation. Maybe I should just like, bro, did you, did you see what about Bob? When he, he worked from home, but he clocked in. I should know that.
1 (3m 42s):
Well, the other thing that I was thinking, so I, okay. I thought about this cause I was asked. Okay. So I, a friend of mine said, I have this free thing for stitch fix. Right. One of these bottles. Okay. Right. I've done those before I did DIA and co and whatever it lost, its luster, it's a waste of money. Eventually. It feels like, and it's ridiculous. Okay. But good, good news about stitch fix is that, or one of these services is that one. I love the jeans they sent me, but two, you have to leave the house to return the things you don't want or you pay for the things. Right. Okay. So that's a side benefit. And so that got me out of the house and three I'm wondering, I was like, oh, maybe I should send my code to Gina.
1 (4m 26s):
But then I'm like, Gina, doesn't like to shut up. Right. And Gina doesn't like, so they do the shopping, but you also don't strike me as someone who would want to dress up for our meetings.
2 (4m 36s):
Exactly. And I did stitch fix and did it for a while. And then I was like, well, what am I dress for? This is a big conundrum. I have just life in general. And we should tell our listeners that, you know, we're, we're contemplating recording, doing a video recorder recording of these podcasts, which will be great, but then it'll make me feel like I need to, but maybe, but maybe it's okay to feel that way. Maybe it would be actually really good for my mental health to be like, I have to get dressed for my day.
1 (5m 8s):
I think it helps me. I mean, look, I'm literally wearing a tank top and a bra, but like
2 (5m 14s):
No, that's huge. Yeah,
1 (5m 15s):
Yeah, yeah. Right. No, and pants without an elastic ways. So like, I think it helps me in that. And some days it's just a pain in the ass, but it also helps me to think that, yeah, at least I'm trying in some area of my life, which we're all trying in all areas, but I'm just saying it's a visual representation of the fact that like, oh, I'm trying, the other thing about coworking that I like is I get to see other people's outfits. And sometimes they're really cute. Sometimes they're fucking horrible. Like it there's a lot of like 20 year olds that are here at co-working because are 20, 25. I'm a little old. So I like age everyone down, but like a 25 year olds that cause you can rent big offices here too.
1 (5m 59s):
Like for companies like marketing companies. So I see the fashions of the 20 five-year-olds and I'm like, whoa, you are opening my eyes to a whole hell scape of fashion that I did not know existed.
2 (6m 14s):
It's all so bad. It's all so bad. By the way, before I forget the, the getting dressed is, is this the reason to do it as the same reason to make your bed every morning? Like you don't have to sure. But doing it creates a nice demarcation that you're not always just, you know, in this miasma of like doing the same, same thing. But yeah. Getting back to the fashions of it's all terrible. And I just watched this documentary called fake famous. You might really like it it's is actually so fascinating. It's a, some guy who, I'm not sure if he's a journalist or whatever, but he speaks all of the time on news programs about social media.
2 (7m 2s):
Like that's just his area of expertise. So he says the social experiment where he, they have a casting call where the casting call says, I'm asking for people who want to be famous. So they get 4,000 submissions
1 (7m 18s):
And it's is it called the theater school?
2 (7m 20s):
Yeah, no, it's not going to theater school. And of course, you know, they paid these people to do it inverse of what we did and they pick these three people who wants to be famous. And he was, he set out to use his knowledge of social media to make them famous, artificially famous. And it was so interesting. It's a, it's something, it's a culture that I knew about. Like, but I'm not, I don't participate in influencer culture. Right. And I don't know if you saw this thing, I posted that 40 million people in the world have a million or more followers, like really puts things in perspective.
2 (8m 5s):
You know? And, and, and it was also talking about how the algorithm shapes itself. So like I'm also reading this book about Alex Jones and conspiracy theories. And you know, he will say on his show, he'll say a lie. And then he'll say Google it, because he's got millions of listeners and millions of listeners Googling something. Right. Makes it, shapes it into something. Right.
1 (8m 35s):
It makes it true. Makes it true. You can literally an impact the truth. It's gross. But it's also, it's like literally how for me, yeah. It's like how Hitler got to power, right? There was no Google, but it is the same. Like if you believe it, it will be so on some level. And if 40 million people believe it, it will really be so on some level. Yes.
2 (8m 58s):
And if they tell us that earth tones and no patterns and no structure to garments looks good, eventually will believe it. And they probably are doing it because there's a glut of earth, tone fabric, and people are trying to write, but I haven't seen something that I would consider a cute outfit on a person under, or maybe even anybody, but in years, like going to the mall, I don't say, Ooh, this is great street
1 (9m 29s):
Snapper.
2 (9m 30s):
It's all just looks gross.
1 (9m 33s):
I went to, so I walked down my street to get to coworking and there's an H and M there. And I, and also when my niece was here, we went to H and M because they love that shit. And I, I was like, literally, this is all 40 shades of putty. Like honey, 40 shades of putty. I said, and she goes, what's potty. And I go, it's this color? 40 shades of putty is my new memoir. And it's all about this color scheme they've got going on. Right? Like it is literally Putney. The putty that came in, the eggs that we used to play with silly putty or whatever, the fuck,
2 (10m 9s):
Petty wood glue,
1 (10m 12s):
Like coffee
2 (10m 13s):
Grounds call,
1 (10m 19s):
Let me run this by you.
2 (10m 27s):
So one of the places, I guess that Instagram is a very popular Instagram spot, by the way, people do whole vacations that are just centered around where to have their picture made. And like, not even thinking about the vacation itself, like people come to LA. Yes. Ma'am people come to LA, let's say they had this one story on their two girls from there might have been from Russia. Now that I'm thinking of it came, you know, spent $2,000 or whatever on their ticket to come to LA. And it was literally just touring these selfie spots. One of them is the Paul Stewart building. There's a big pink, it's a Paul Stewart it's fashion design.
2 (11m 9s):
And it was just like, his store is the, it's a huge, huge, huge pink wall. Oh. And this is where people at any time of day, you could drive by it. And you're going to see people taking selfies there because it's an Instagram spot. Oh. So people come to LA by the droves with a list of selfie spots.
1 (11m 33s):
This is like fucking Pokemon people situation.
2 (11m 37s):
Okay. Like by dying because you're being pokey while you're driving. Yeah, exactly.
1 (11m 42s):
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah.
2 (11m 43s):
So I guess you don't see too much of this.
1 (11m 45s):
No, not, especially not in Pasadena. I can't
2 (11m 48s):
Imagine
1 (11m 50s):
Fucking suburb dude. And, and, and I would also, oh, but I did see, okay. So miles surfs. Right? And we, while he's a new surfer, I shouldn't, it's not like Kelly Slater or whatever the fuck. Anyway, the point is we went to a surf lesson once and I fucking kid, you not, there was a guy who I believe was speaking Russian on the phone at the Santa Monica parking lot at 7:00 AM beach parking lot with his Mercedes that was rented clearly with a camera on a fucking tripod, taking selfies at 7:00 AM with a rented Mercedes in a crazy outfit there when he was doing and, and, and me and miles and I, and, and, and the surf teacher, who's fucking hilarious.
1 (12m 41s):
Who's this stoner comedian named Jared, who is hilarious, was like, yeah, yeah, dude, this is, this is, this is it, man. This is how they do it. They like stop traffic. And, and I didn't know what he was talking about, but now that you're saying it, this is what this guy was doing. And I, he was on the bash Dudley doing it. So like, there was no embarrassment. I was like, what the fuck? And music was playing. It was videos too. Like Instagram videos, reels or something. He's fucking, he was playing rap music, which was the best thing about the whole thing was the music. But he, it was raw. And he was crouching down, like by the car, in an outfit at 7:00 AM.
1 (13m 21s):
And Doris was, I was with the dog of the dog was like, even the dog was like, what the fuck is this guy doing? Like what?
2 (13m 28s):
I never bring my personal. I was like, just taking a selfie. I have to do it usually with one of my kids. And even then it feels it's something about it feels wrong. And did you know that you can rent the space that looks like the interior of a private jet for $50 an hour so that you could take pictures and make it look like you are traveling,
1 (13m 58s):
Which is like my nightmare, because I'm afraid to fly. I'd go to, I'd be in hell, but okay.
2 (14m 2s):
Oh, you can rent a mansion for $600 in a day and have, you know, these Instagrammers, they get together like four or five looks and they rent out a mansion and they pose themselves in these ridiculous things. And then they, because they post, they have to post four times a day in order to stay relevant and to get brands that want to get a sponsor them or whatever. So they are just constantly going around looking for content. And then the pandemic happened. And I think that really gave rise to like renting these spaces because they couldn't actually go on these vacations and so forth.
2 (14m 43s):
Isn't that wild. It's just
1 (14m 45s):
Craziest shit I've ever, I'm going to watch this documentary. I M it is again, I know why you find it interesting too, is because it really reminds me of Adam McKay's work. Like what is happening? It's so meta. It's like, what? Wait a minute, wait, what is happening?
2 (15m 7s):
Well, ironically, I think one of the things that's happening is whereas, you know, initially the feeling about the internet, it was just made everything opened up, right. And that's still true to, to a large degree, but on another way, everybody's life is just about their phone. You know, your life takes place on this tiny little screen and, and to be in a group of people under, I mean, maybe not even that maybe just to be in a group of people is to see like 80% of them at any given moment staring at their phone, wherever they are out in the world. Right. They, one of the scenes in the movie is they, some company hires a bunch of influencers.
2 (15m 51s):
It's a junket, essentially. Like they take them to these selfie spots, including a abandoned water park. That's like a, that's like a great place to take salaries. They get this crew of girls and they just take them to these various spots to model this ugly, putty, colored clothing, and then get paid for brand, you know, for hashtagging the brand. And there, I was just like so depressed. I felt sick after watching that Pressing right. There was one guy who did not, he decided that actually of the three people, they picked, two of them quit during the experiment, because one of them was getting comments from his real cause the guy was buying them followers.
2 (16m 38s):
That's what he was doing. He bought them followers, which are all of these bots. And did you know that like people like Kim Kardashians who have whatever millions and millions it's estimated this 60% of their followers are bots. Yeppers. Yep. Yep. Yep. So I guess
1 (17m 1s):
I can't, I can't even process what's going on here today. Like, I, I, you, you can't people can't see what they will. Once we start recording these bad boys, the video, I like looked down at my fucking TIVA sandal. Okay. My Tivas okay. By the way, by the way I was wearing, I bought Tivas because my feet are fucked up. Right. And I had to wear, I got, I have two shoes now I can really wear, which are Hocus. And then Tivas alright, terrible. Sarah will situations. But anyway, I'm wearing black Tivas sandals that I wore literally wore in eighth grade. And then I have a fucking LL bean like throw back at, or is it an Adirondack
2 (17m 45s):
And
1 (17m 47s):
Adirondacks a chair. Right. But okay. And it has like kind of nineties, throwback colors, not on purpose. I just liked it. And I bought it has a hood. I fucking wearing that. Some jeans and my Tivas and I look like I'm going to summer camp. Right. And I'm in the coworking and these young, these young ladies go, oh my God, we'd love your throwback nineties outfit. Literally. They said that. And I was like, Oh my God, I, oh my God, I didn't ha I didn't know what was going on. And I was like, oh my God, the one there. Right. I literally looked like I was going to camp echo, which was the camp I went to the Y camp.
1 (18m 30s):
And I also was like, it's also kind of hideous. And yet these youngsters are thinking I'm doing it. Ironically.
2 (18m 38s):
Let's, let's give up.
1 (18m 44s):
Let's just give up. Let's kill ourselves.
2 (18m 47s):
Let's wave the white flag. I tried Lord. Oh Lord.
1 (18m 53s):
I mean, I, I couldn't understand what's going on. And I looked down and I was like, oh my God, they're so right. And I just smiled. And I was like, are they
2 (19m 1s):
Literally Chivas from eighth grade? Like, you literally still have your same. No,
1 (19m 4s):
I bought Because my feet hurt. I need sandals that are literally, it's so sad. It's so sad. And I was sitting at coworking and they walked by and they said that I looked down and I was like, I, I did, I did feel Gina. Like I just, I gave up
2 (19m 23s):
Trying to give up. Now we're all set.
0 (19m 28s):
Well
2 (19m 39s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Mickey O'Sullivan. Mickey O'Sullivan is a Chicago actor. You know him, you know him from the shy and from Chicago PD and athletes. So many television shows. I couldn't possibly mention them all here as well as theater and commercials. And he is a related and relatable, insightful, funny, warm, talented person. So please enjoy our conversation with Mickey O'Sullivan
1 (20m 15s):
I'm talking about right now, filling her age. I don't know. It's great. It's great. It's in a good way. You will see that my internet was in and out. It's just,
2 (20m 24s):
Yeah. Are you close to your router or
1 (20m 27s):
Even know where the router is? So there we
5 (20m 29s):
Go. What's the router.
2 (20m 33s):
Good point. Make you good. Bye. Nice flex there with your Peloton in the background.
5 (20m 39s):
Oh yeah. Check that out. Just like slid it over. I've got it on one of those lazy Susan's right now. This is my current look. And it just,
1 (20m 48s):
Do you have another lip?
5 (20m 52s):
Who's a lazy Susan on the table and you know how you got to kind of prop up your, your laptop. So,
1 (20m 57s):
Oh, I thought you had the Peloton on a fucking lazy Susan. I was like Next level.
2 (21m 4s):
I was adding a whole new dimension to that workout, which is already very difficult.
1 (21m 8s):
I was just feeling Gina and about the things, which is interesting that you popped on. So I can tell, I can say it in front of you and make you really embarrassed. So in a good way. So I was just saying, and we'll, we'll, we'll start with the official Gina opening, even though you left theater school still the same opening applies. So say it,
2 (21m 27s):
Congratulations. Mikio Sullivan, you survived theater school. Hey, Mickey, serve a cookie.
1 (21m 35s):
You deserve a cookie and all sorts of things and free therapy. And Yeah, so we all need that. But I was just saying that one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, and we'll just dive right in and see Gina and I talked before our guests. So we're like warmed up about like psychological issues. Other people are like, what are you talking about? Like, why are you starting here? But here's how I have to start, because this is what I've realized lately. You're the only male identifying person that I've ever talked to. That talks about body image.
2 (22m 8s):
Oh,
1 (22m 10s):
I had never had a conversation where casually come up in conversation, your history of your relationship with your body as, as you from a kid to an adult, no one ever taught male, identifying person has ever talked about that with me and eight, I, it opened my eyes to like, oh shit, oh shit, men have body image issues. I did. It didn't even occur to me. So that's where I want to start. Good morning to you.
5 (22m 40s):
No, I'm also kind of jealous, right? So I listened to your podcast and you do you get like a real ramp up. And so this morning I was like, you know what? I need this a little bit. So I, you know, I drove the wife to work. I have a wife, I would say the word wife, which is really exciting. Thank you. And I'm also a chauffeur, which I love being. I like to be of service. I'm driving her there and I'm trying to have conversation to like warm up, you know? And she is so focused on work.
2 (23m 12s):
She's like, yeah. Anyway.
1 (23m 17s):
Yeah. She's like, that's all good. I didn't listen to the last 10 minutes. You said? Yeah. I mean, so I I'm glad that you, that was nice of you to do a ramp up, but no need, but, but, but also, can you talk a little bit about, and then we'll leave that that'll probably lead into acting stuff too, obviously in schooling, but like, what was your experience? Because you've talked about that. Like, I guess my first question would be like, what are the thoughts when I bring that up about a dude talking about body image,
5 (23m 49s):
To me, it makes total sense. And I'm also kind of shocked that more people don't talk about this. I mean, growing up, right. Like, yeah, kids are cruel for sure. But like, it's kind of very insidious the way that guys can be cruel to other guys. And also this idea that like, in order to be attractive to whoever I'm, whoever I'm like crushing on, like starting from a real young age is I better look like these people. And when we were growing up, those people were athletes. Right. It was never like Neil deGrasse Tyson. Right? Like it was never like these like really super intense or if it was, it was like bill gates or something.
5 (24m 31s):
And I don't know, like there was, there's this disconnect between masculinity and like being okay with your, your body and your body image and the way that you give off your image to other person, people so much. So to this day, I still struggle with it on a daily basis for a little while there, I was like, you know what? I think I understand the key to Hollywood success and that's the six pack and the really fucked up part was that the more, the closer I got to that goal, the better my career got. And I don't think that the two are linked. I don't think so. But I think that like, being, having to think that as somebody who's, who understands the industry pretty well and who has kind of had highs and lows in their career, if I'm thinking that then what is, you know, the version of 15 year old Makey, who's like, oh, I wonder what being an actor is like thinking.
5 (25m 27s):
And so that starts super young, but I was also stop me if you have questions, but I'm going to go on like a tangent here. Sure. So very young right. Actor on a baby soap opera before image is even a thing, right? Like before you have any concept of that, you give off your image to other people. I don't remember any of it, obviously. Right. And then parents separated. I come to Chicago, dad stays in New York, me and my brother growing up. My brother is always super thin, super smart. And I am always not super thin and not super smart. And so there's this kind of competitiveness that's going on right there.
5 (26m 11s):
But in order to fit in my brother developed a real good sense of humor at new school, very young. And I didn't, I was, I, I struggled to acclimate to like a new environment. And I guess, I don't know necessarily that I, I think that I wanted to tell myself that I had an eating problem growing up, but I don't know that that's true. I don't think I understood food or my body or energy really well because later on I started getting into athletics probably out of this complex.
5 (26m 50s):
Right. But I started using food for fuel and that kind of started my journey towards like understanding my body and understanding of what goes in there. But as a kid, it was like, if it's in the cupboard, I'm going to eat it. And I am a very energetic person. And so I attached myself to like food, energy, just keep going. But then when you're getting made fun of on a daily basis, energy emotions take like a lot of energy to process. And so I would come home and I would be in tears from, you know, being, they call me Shabaka my brother's name is Danica.
5 (27m 30s):
And they like, you know, the, the terrible people that our children. So I was always known as like, what is the one thing that is different between you and your brother? Well, you're fat and you're not. And, and yeah, like going into the career, it's awful.
1 (27m 51s):
But wait, I have a question. Was your family, I always wonder this because my family was not supportive. So, so I was bullied at school and I was also bullied at home. Were you bullied by your brother and your mom or no,
5 (28m 8s):
For sure. My brother, like, we were awful to one another, the fact that we have a relationship now and like a really good one is, is mind blowing. But yeah, we were awful each other. My mom, not so much, my mom always struggled with her body image and her weight and her reflection of herself. And I think still does to this day, like I remember like some of the conversations before our wedding was like, for both her and I like, you know, gotta start to trim up for the way, you know? So, so yeah. I don't know if I was bullied at home as much. I was, it was definitely a safe space for me coming home in that regard.
5 (28m 50s):
But my brother around his friends, it would increase a bit. And then of course that's like a role model to all of my friends or whatever. And then I just started hanging out with people who like, probably weren't the best for me because they weren't making fun of me. They weren't the best for me because of,
1 (29m 10s):
I mean, I think that it's like, we go, I'll speak for myself. I went, you go where the teasing stops. Right. Whoever's not, the love is great. And the love
5 (29m 22s):
Has an absence of love.
1 (29m 24s):
Right. I see. I always say like, I didn't necessarily want to be not if once I realized I was just going to keep being bullied, I then just wanted to be left alone. So whoever would leave me alone, if not mention it became my friend, even those people were fricking had troubles of their own. I mean, like were troubled, at least they weren't picking on me. Right. So it's like you start settling for more and more, less and less love. And like, you just want to disappear. I mean, that's what happened.
5 (29m 56s):
Do you think that that led to you being an artist in the sense that you started focusing more on self through isolation? Do you know what I mean?
1 (30m 5s):
Great question. I started. Yeah. I think that what happened was it led to my brain and heart madly trying to figure out why this was happening to me. Why was reading, being treated this way by school and at home and what I could do that was safe. And the only thing to do that was safe was make believe and create in a world where, yeah, where it wasn't about the way I looked because you know, but then you mix
2 (30m 37s):
Except until it totally was
1 (30m 41s):
When you then go to a theater school. So there you go.
5 (30m 44s):
Yeah. Yeah. Super weird to how that kind of comes into the mix. Right.
2 (30m 50s):
So I, I'm being quiet as you're talking Mickey because you're describing a dynamic that is happening in my house right now with my two sons and, and you're, so you're the, you're the grown up version. I'm really happy to hear you have a good relationship with your brother, because this is like one of my biggest fears. I had such a terrible relationship with my sister and my sons are on their way to, you know, how it seems to me is they're on their way to having that type of relationship. And maybe it's the thing about, you know, because kids are like, prof, I forget sometimes how much they have to take on at any given day.
2 (31m 30s):
Maybe even 90% of it at school is social. And only 10% of it is academic, but that's, that is so much that just, just like information processing and it has to happen in your body. So if you're having a hard time with it and then you're having, you know, body image issues on top of it, it's, it's all, it just seems like impossible to survive high school, you know? Like how does anybody survive high school, let alone theater school,
5 (31m 60s):
But oh,
2 (32m 2s):
No. The 15 and 13.
5 (32m 4s):
So part of the pandemic was they were being judged on this while they're going through like fuck and hormones and brutal. I could not imagine
2 (32m 16s):
Completely, completely brutal. And that's a whole other thing about education and the pandemic and how like we'll never get it back. Like, you know, it's just, there's just last years basically. But anyway. So when did you start getting into acting? When did you decide that that was something you wanted to pursue?
5 (32m 34s):
All right. So like alone, personally, like walking home from school, right. That, that mind was already there. Like my entire life. I was like, I'll be an actor. Not that I wanted to, but like, oh, that seems like, like I was the liar growing up. I was the storyteller I told the fucking biggest bibs in the world. And so I think like in my mind, but then it was like, oh, I'm very distractable. And I, this is how I knew I wanted to be an actor. Was that like one day that, wow, I could be a doctor. I could be a firefighter. Oh my gosh, garbage man. Why not? Right. And then the idea, like, I'd maybe like work on that for like a day.
5 (33m 17s):
And then the next day I'd be like, oh, I'm so interested in this. And I think later on, I was like, oh, you can go. It's a really cool way to learn about all sorts of these little things. It was just kind of like spin the wheel of roulette, acting, you know, go out for tons of commercials. You get to play a handyman for a day. And for me, like, I personally loved the pretend of like, oh, I wonder what a handyman stays like.
1 (33m 41s):
Yeah. That's what I remember about you is like a super curious kid, like super curious and maybe like that's part of the artist's brain too, is like, you were always curious, curious, curious, curious a hundred times curious. So what, okay, so you were like, that was your thought as you're walking home and then how did that translate into like being in a play or auditioning for shit? Or like how does that work or going to school? Yeah,
5 (34m 7s):
Definitely thought, right. Like funny person was my option in terms of getting out of like the social anxiety. And so my mom got me involved in a play, I think in like sixth grade, but it was outside of my social circle. It was like, we were on like the Southwest suburbs and this was way in the south suburbs. And so I didn't know anybody there only relationship to me was this thing. I played a skunk in a Winnie, the Pooh play. And then I proceeded to like rip my pants and fart in my own peace scene. So That helped the whole shitty body image to thing. Cause right.
5 (34m 47s):
Cause who splits their pants.
2 (34m 50s):
Right. Miley Cyrus actually. I mean, anybody can start therapy
6 (34m 56s):
It's me and my
2 (34m 58s):
Okay. But when it was time to pick college and you were looking around, did you look at a variety of theater programs or conservatories?
5 (35m 8s):
No. I don't think that I admitted to myself at that point that those was like a valid career option. So my senior year of high school, I had this like real stint in hockey where like I thought that that could be a career path for me. And then that was ended through like a variety of like injuries and you know, like personal stuff. And so then it was like I had a theater professor pulled me aside and was like, Hey, not professor, but high school teacher, special ed teacher who then ran the drama program was like, Hey, maybe you should consider doing this with your free time. Instead of just like smoking pot and smoking hookah and like driving around with your newfound free time.
5 (35m 51s):
And I was like, oh, maybe that's a good idea. So I did like beauty and the beast high school as like, you know, this like a side character kind of like not in the limelight. And then later on did a Shakespeare comedians, LR where we just totally ripped off of the American conservatory theater's production from, we like copied it, move by move and called it acting. And then we won state for that, which is kind of backwards, you know, like we won state for copying and production. So I definitely thought it was good, but I didn't think that I was any good at like creating my own versions of characters or anything. So I knew I had to apply to a school.
5 (36m 32s):
I had no idea what I was going to apply to. That seemed to be what I was good at. So I did a double major and special education and, and theater because I didn't think that a, my parents would approve of me being fully theater student. And then B I felt like maybe it was either a selfish career path or yeah, not like, I think I wanted something more noble maybe. And I had experience working summer camps for special Olympics and stuff like that growing up. So I was like, oh, that's a, that's an interesting thing. So then when I got to Illinois state university, they were one of the schools that accepted me.
5 (37m 15s):
I had no concept of what a theater school should be, none whatsoever. And a lot of the other people were like, oh, I did four years of drama and four years of forensics. And in the summers, I go away to theater camp and I was like, I played hockey. And so I didn't fit in again. Right. Which was fine because I learned how to be by myself. And so I started making all of my social circles outside of the theater department for the most part. And I think in a way that kind of helped me, like I practice my monologues in front of my buddy, Greg, who I think Greg does like computer science and you would just go, I think that was good. You know, it really became self self reflection.
5 (37m 59s):
And the weird part is like, I would go in and I, I really did become the, the, one of the golden children of my department. I was an asshole. Yeah. So a hundred percent I was cast in a li almost immediately. And
2 (38m 18s):
It does not surprise me because this is what always happens. Like the, the men who go into drama don't tend towards the masculine. Right. So then when they get somebody who's like, I played hockey that, I mean, you know, that happened in my high school. That
1 (38m 35s):
Happened our theater school too.
5 (38m 37s):
I think it's backwards too though. Cause you the more in touch with my feminine, oh, I hate that word. But like, you know, like this idea that like there's a masculine, the more I got in touch with myself and with art, I felt the better I did. Right. I still think that to this day, like the more I'm receptive to my own emotions and the emotions of those around me, the better I'm able to handle my career.
1 (39m 4s):
Yeah. It just sounds like the, the, the bind that we're all in, which is people want you to be a certain way. But when you actually invest in being another way, it's going to make you a better person than artists, but nobody really wants that, but they say they want it. So men are in a bind. I guess what I'm saying is like, you're the first male guest that we've had on that I've known. And I know the struggles that you've been through and it, it opened my eyes to theater school for men straight men specifically are men that identify as straight, whatever. It's a, it's a bind for you too. It's a bind for you. So I guess, what did you love about theater school and what were you like? I'm outta here.
1 (39m 46s):
That's my question.
5 (39m 48s):
Yeah. And those are all awesome points. Like it continues. The body image thing continues all throughout college. And I do grow closer to myself through that. But I think the thing that I loved about it is that I had that opportunity for the first time in my life. Like hockey was definitely an obsession for me. I tend to gravitate towards obsessing. And so to get into theater school, I didn't take any gen EDS. I like, I, I forgot my degree. I failed out of school. And finally, because I just, I wasn't interested in anything except for learning all of the theater that I think at some point I looked at somebody I MDB and I was like, oh, they were, you know, working for 15 years before they had their big, big, big break right there before they were discovered.
5 (40m 36s):
And so I was like, oh, I have a lot of catching up to do. Right. I didn't do this until my, until I was 18. Now it's time to catch up. So I just started like taking only theater classes. And then the idea that you can sit or lay on the ground in a dark room, surrounded by your peers and think about what shape your body is making and what noises are coming out to me. That was super interesting to me. I got lost in that world. And I still think to this day, like my brother is a finance guy and he he'll never know what it's like to just weep behind a mask because you saw something a certain way one day. And so for me, that was a celebrated thing.
5 (41m 18s):
It was like, congratulations, you, you cried behind the mask. I don't know. It's still is kind of a bizarre thing to like to reflect on. But my, my presentation skills got better at, than my social emotional skills got better. I was spending every night in a rehearsal space getting to know how to best work with people and how to make mistakes, like going back. I love college. I don't like the results of college. I don't like the way that it was kind of organized. People were cut after certain years. It was very dramatic. But theater school for me was, I mean, what a dream, right? Like I got to wake up, put on a leotard and go stretch for two hours and then go into a voice class.
5 (42m 1s):
Talk about my feelings towards words, study history.
1 (42m 8s):
I wish I could, I want to go. What if I apply where they, that's a horrible idea. I do this all the time, by the way. But like, it sounds so great when you guys, when you say it, I'm like, wait, I was wasted. I wasted my time there. I wasted my time.
5 (42m 26s):
I don't know though. Right. Like I think I've spent the rest of my career being like, okay, so what can I take from that? Because that's not the real world. The real world is not that you get to wake up and do that. But like, certainly I've recently gotten back into like stretching and mourning, like yoga in the mornings and stuff. And I'm like, oh, that was something that really works for you back then. Where did that go? And so, right. Like creating my own schedule. I think also I got, I was supposed to get a, B S and not a BFA. So I think I definitely missed some of the, I had more rigidity in my schedule that I think some of my peers and that made me resist the regular general education stuff and spend more time.
5 (43m 16s):
Like I committed to every directing project that somebody was doing. Right. Like they're in a class. And I was like, I'll do it. When they were like, bring one monologue to class. I was like, well, I'll take up the whole class and bring 10. I was super selfish about theater classes as well. Like if nobody else wanted to go, it was like, well, what are we doing here? I'll go.
1 (43m 37s):
Wow.
5 (43m 38s):
So I S I experienced a ton. Right. I was looking through, I, I was like reflecting the other day and I don't understand how I did all of that in four years or four and a half years or whatever, because I probably did at least 10 projects a year. And then I stayed during the summers and did community theater, like a playwrights festival there as well. And so I was just constantly going, but a weird body image thing. Right. So freshmen, what are the freshmen 15? I put on like the freshmen 45 drinking a lot. Right. Partying, a lot, eating food from the food Corp,
1 (44m 18s):
Chicken fingers, chicken fingers, fingers.
5 (44m 22s):
So much cheese.
1 (44m 25s):
Yeah.
5 (44m 25s):
And then I played my first like bigger role was Toby belching 12th night. So, so, oh, you have extra, you are bigger than other people. Now you're going to play the funny role, right. The drunkard, the, this or that. And I don't know what came too, but I think somebody made a body image comment in my final assessment that year. And regardless of whether that was a positive or negative thing, I committed that summer to not being what they thought I was. Right. I was like, I'm not just this
1 (45m 6s):
Comment. Do you remember the comment?
5 (45m 7s):
I don't remember. I just know that there was a catalyst, right. Something happened in that last little meeting where either what was said, or what was not said was not what I wanted to write. And so I was like, I have, I have a fucking chip on my shoulder. I love to prove people wrong. It's like a weird obsession thing as well, prove myself wrong. And so I, I went and I went running and I went back to this like, athlete, like, oh, this is how I preserve myself. And maybe if my feelings were hurt, right. Like I can focus all of that into this.
5 (45m 47s):
And I lost, like, I lost a lot of weight very quickly. And then that next, you know, I was the romantic leading man, the next fall In Philadelphia for the story. And to the point where like, this is how little I understood. They're like, you're doing the Philadelphia story. Will you come in and read for like the dad role? And I was like, okay. And I was like, oh, this is the dad role. It's a musical, obviously in my brain. And it's not, yeah. It's not, it's, it's Carrie gray Audrey. But I was like, I didn't read the play. I had no idea.
5 (46m 27s):
And then they cast me as like the leading romantically, not Carrie Grant's character. And I was like, oh no, this is a terrible idea. They don't know that. I can't say
6 (46m 43s):
I showed up to them like ready to like, <em></em>
2 (46m 50s):
Mickey. Would it be fair to say that, like, you've had to figure, I mean, a lot of people come to acting as a way to figure themselves out. Right? Like a lot of people like the idea of trying on roles. Cause that's what they're also doing with their own identity. And I do see like a little bit of a trend where a lot of people who do it for that reason, maybe didn't get enough reflected back to them when they were a kid or they got reflected only these negative things like you're describing about getting bullied. So, I mean, would it be fair to say that it's taken you oh, a long time to get to know who you really are?
2 (47m 31s):
Are you still in a process of figuring that out? Like, did you, how much, or how little did you know yourself when you were at theater school?
5 (47m 41s):
Yeah, totally fair to say. I didn't, I didn't really know myself. I definitely was enjoying the process of getting to know myself, but I didn't really have an understanding of like why I was the way I was. I, and I am definitely still in the process of trying to figure that out. I think I did a play right when I left school called, called awake. And it was about a young man. Who's a poet who's who thought his father was a poet and turns out there was, it was his brother. Like my, my father's brother was my actual father.
5 (48m 22s):
And it was just like, I don't know myself. I need to go figure out who I am. And that really resonated with me. It was like this idea that like sometimes what we feel is just the, the anxiety or the poles that we feel is just us going while I thought I would have known myself more by now. And so, yeah, definitely still trying to figure it out. My process, creative process. I mean, like that's constantly in flux, never the same. And that's like hockey stuff too. The reason I liked hockey was you could run a set play, and it's always going to be different every single time.
5 (49m 4s):
And the idea of theater, right? Like you, you get up every night and you do it. And like something about the way that your day went will be reflected in your performance. And, and so that's interesting to me. Yeah.
1 (49m 23s):
Interesting. I never got that. I never, I never knew that that acting was about me. Do you know what I mean? Like I never got that note. Like that message. I missed that whole thing that like, I could bring my whole self to a role. It doesn't mean that it's me. Like, but that I was allowed to bring my whole self to the role. And in fact, if I did, my acting would be better. Like I miss so much, I'm just so bombed, but I'm learning it. I'm learning it from, from listening to people like you on the podcast and talking with them like, oh, I'm helping to, to, when I teach now, I'm like, bring you, you're helping me.
1 (50m 7s):
The other thing I want to say is that when I saw you Mickey in my first time seeing you in a lead role or any role was at the greenhouse, I dunno, Athen am in Henry Morris, melting this, play it. And I'd never seen Mickey act. And someone was like, I have my own problems. Like, why am I going? I went to this
5 (50m 36s):
That's great advice. Yeah.
1 (50m 40s):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I give you terrible advice. I was like, go to LA, you're going to be famous. But like, yeah. Well, anyway, so I saw this play. I saw you in the play and I was like, this is one of the best actors I've ever seen in my life. I, I, I was blown away. I thought, oh, this kid knows what the fuck he's doing. And commits 125% on stage, which is, it just was miles ahead of what everyone else was doing onstage, but not in a real snarky way, in a real working man sort of a way so that you don't hate Mickey because you're like, oh, this is a good person.
1 (51m 26s):
They just really are committed to what the fuck they're doing. I had never seen that from an actor your age, because we're
2 (51m 34s):
Obsessed.
1 (51m 37s):
And I was like,
5 (51m 38s):
Oh,
1 (51m 39s):
This kid is the real deal. Like I,
5 (51m 43s):
That maybe I was avoiding My work. I was avoiding all of the other things that were sitting outside of that. Right. That like were valuable pieces of insight that I could have learned about myself. But like, I, at that point, Jen, like I was moving to LA because I did not have a home. Right. Like it was a warmer climate. Like I had no money to my name whatsoever. I struggled with addiction. I right. Like I had all of these personal life crises going on, but theater is a place where you can go for two hours, whether you're seeing it or whether you're in it and totally just purposefully forget everything else.
5 (52m 26s):
And so I put off a lot of like personal growth until probably like 30 years old, at least like real is true. Like this might work for you, but it is destructive. I put off that work because I was like, oh, it serves me. Right? Like it's, it gives me energy to put into my career. It is going to better knees somehow to hurt.
2 (52m 49s):
How do you, how, how does the casting world see you? Like who are you as an actor?
5 (52m 56s):
That's a good question. I wish I knew. I think I'm, I think I play intense characters that I played, blue collar characters, definitely people with an emotional depth, like an intense, emotional depth. I have, I'm starting to play the good guy. All of a sudden, which is interesting. I like playing the best friend role. And I think I kind of look at every role as the best role, you know, I am there to do something.
8 (53m 32s):
Yeah. Right.
1 (53m 37s):
Which is why they want you for the leading man role. Look, this is, it makes perfect sense to me from an outside. I'm like, they want you, so you are finally what I'm hearing too is like, you're finally what you said is like starting to do the work on yourself, right? Like as a person, as a human, as a father, as a, as a, as a husband, as all the things. Right? So it makes perfect sense that you are now playing the good guy. And also that you now are wanted by people to play the lead. Even though you want to play the best friend and you play leads to, I'm not saying you don't want to play the lead, but it, it just all makes sense.
1 (54m 18s):
It all makes sense that when you work on yourself, if, and if you're lucky and all the things that You
5 (54m 24s):
End up your
1 (54m 24s):
Career advancing when you do the work on
5 (54m 27s):
Yourself
1 (54m 28s):
Internally, but
5 (54m 30s):
Then you can decide whether or not things are working. And that's like the, the small business perspective, right? Like you open a small business on the corner, your first year, you're, you're looking at like high expenses, right? Like expense your entire store. You're going to be in the red for a while. Second year, you maybe are developing a customer client relationship. Third year, maybe you have a personal crisis and things take a step back fourth year, whatever fifth year, by the time the fifth year goes, you go, I have some solid data to work with. Right? Maybe this network isn't working for me and I need to go to a different network. And I S I subverted a lot of bad advice. I didn't listen to any of it.
5 (55m 10s):
I went from New York back to Bloomington, normal Illinois to try to get my degree and failing out again, because I did too much theater up to Minnesota, Chicago, California, Colorado, back to Chicago, and about three years, four years. Yeah. And so then I got back to Chicago and I was like, oh, this is what it's like, when you stay in a place for a little while, maybe people have a chance to respond to the postcards that you're sending up.
2 (55m 40s):
Yeah. And what's that whole thing, like now, since I've been out of it for so long triangle, when you're first starting out and trying to get people to know you, you said you still send them postcards with your, with your headshot on one side or something.
5 (55m 54s):
Snail mail, baby headshots. Right. I would print go to Kinko's or FedEx or whatever. I've had tons of headshots, tons of resumes, tons of cover letters. And I'd send them to everybody which maybe is what I'm learning. Now. Thankfully, I have representation. I've had representation for a really long time. Is that like, maybe be targeted with the people that you want to work with and focus on that rather than like, will anybody like me please will anybody, But maybe I had a better, I I've never thought about this. I submitted to two agencies or one agency that called me, and it was a really big name in Chicago.
5 (56m 39s):
And they called me in and they kept calling me Maki, like, Hey, Maki, come here. And then they were like, yeah, my name is Mickey. Sorry. That was the thing that they call me,
1 (56m 59s):
Excuse me.
5 (57m 1s):
And I was like, well,
1 (57m 2s):
That's the greatest fucking name I've ever heard of. I mean, it's not your name, but it's a great name. Yeah.
5 (57m 8s):
They brought me into the room and they're like, okay, give us your monologue. But look at the wall. They're so spot on the wall, look at it. So I did the whole thing and they were like, how are you expecting to have a good relationship with casting? If you just stare while you talk the entire time. And I was like, oh, I thought you said, like stare at the wall and talk. And they were like, you know what I think, like with your look and your experience, we could do a trial contract. And I was like, maybe finally at that point, did I have the guts in my life to be like, I don't need just anyone to be my friend or to work with me.
2 (57m 48s):
Maki need somebody who can really connect with
5 (57m 51s):
It knows my name, you know, that read the email. And then sure enough, I, I reached out to somebody who I knew was an agent and I had a meeting with them and I was like, Hey, is that how all of them should go? Because if it is, I'll just take the contract and I'll work in the industry and whatever. But if it's not, I'm not going to sign with somebody who's a Dick. Who's like too overwhelmed to actually build new relationships. Let me go and focus on somebody who like, wants to have a conversation about what I think of the industry and my place in that.
2 (58m 23s):
Oh, it makes me sick to think about how many people who are in those positions of power. It's, that's all they're interested in is the sort of the power play of it all. Like this thing that we start doing when we're kids and for some people we don't ever outgrow it, which is like, I don't need you. You need me, you know, the way that I show my, you know, whatever that ability in the world is to reject you instead of, you know, to be inclusive or, or even just, I mean, just a kind thing, because by the way, nobody has, is named Maki. So they should have had a sense of like, wait, why are we saying this? Right. I mean, right.
2 (59m 3s):
Shouldn't they have had some idea that
5 (59m 6s):
I do. Like, maybe I'm a sucker and lately I've been trying to think of like, what are all of the reasons that people could act like that? Because I don't get it right. Like, I don't get like, the I'm going to go brag to people about how I treated this person, like shit. And I, I think maybe it like it, it is just a really deep, deep, personal thing that's going on. That's totally clouding. Then being aware of how they're treating other people at all. Because I don't, I it's gotta be because I don't, I I've never heard anybody brag to me about how they treated somebody like shit in my entire life. I know that that's a thing that generally, as humans, we feel deep shame about and how maybe that deep shame manifests is just constantly being so focused on, on you and the things that you have to do and, you know, maintaining your own personal level of success and survival.
5 (59m 59s):
It's this fucked up survival tactic of like nobody else matters only what I'm doing matters. Maybe. I dunno. Maybe I'm just a sucker.
1 (1h 0m 8s):
No, I think it's, I think you're right. Like I think people get so caught up in their own process. They don't even know some people do, but I think that's like the exceptional sociopath psychopath, but like most people are just like low level nurses. We're all such low level narcissists mixed with our childhood trauma. We don't even realize what we're doing. I swear because I have confronted people, you know, that I've, I've confronted big wigs and said, do you realize that you're talking like this person is a piece of shit and they're like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, oh my God, most people don't understand.
2 (1h 0m 50s):
And most people are so far from understanding that the, that the farthest they'll ever get with that is just a defensive will know you're the asshole for pointing out. Right. I mean, that's, that's, that's usually the limit. It never ceases to amaze me. And yet it always amazes me. No, that's the same thing. <em></em> how with, you know, my, the thing I'm always interested is getting from surface to depth with people. But I think like maybe 98% of the population is just really interested in staying or maybe it's just because of where I'm living. I don't know. But I, I find that not only do people not want to go from surface to depth, they're frightened and weirded out by you wanting to do that.
2 (1h 1m 35s):
You know what I mean? Because my thing is always like, we all know that the weather is how it is. Like, can we just like, let's skip that part. Let's go to the next thing. And people don't like that. They really don't like that.
1 (1h 1m 47s):
No people are not interested in that because what they have to, I am convinced that at the, at the core of that is, oh, one day I'm going to die and everyone I know is going to die.
2 (1h 1m 59s):
And
1 (1h 1m 59s):
If we talk about real, if we talk about real stuff, it'll inevitably lead me to, oh my God, everyone I love is going to die and I'm going to die. And I can't handle that. So I'm going to do drugs or do anything else instead, or not, or talk about the,
5 (1h 2m 13s):
Not the talking about the weather, but that's where I'm at right now is that I'm like, oh, the most important thing that we could do now is acknowledged the back that we're going to die
2 (1h 2m 23s):
Because it's so much freedom by the way, because it's not like, sorry to spoiler alert, but everybody is going to die. So like let's instead of being, spending your entire life afraid of that thing, embrace it because you're not going to die right now necessarily, you know, like you could make right now more interesting, right.
5 (1h 2m 43s):
Enjoy right now. Right. In a way
1 (1h 2m 46s):
Even noticed right now, just notice that we're actually alive. And I, and that we are here now doing things, talking, eating, all the things that we do it's happening. I think that that's what I've come to in this podcast. And in my life is like if the most I ever get to is, oh, this is actually happening. I'm here. This is going on. How I feel about it as how I feel about it, but this is what's going on. Acknowledging them. That's going to have to be enough because to go deep with people is such a treat and so rare. But like, I have to still stay true to the acknowledging part.
1 (1h 3m 28s):
Like, oh, you, you might be uncomfortable, but I'm going to acknowledge in my own way that, that, that we're all going to die in. And that's part of the impermanence. I'm going to acknowledge it to myself because if I don't, it just really leads to
2 (1h 3m 40s):
You just feel so isolated and desperate and yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, speaking of isolated and desperate and alone, you mentioned going through some issues with addiction. How, how do you, could you say anything about that and how you, how you got ahead of it?
5 (1h 4m 0s):
Yeah. Never out of it, right? Like I am an addict through and through, right? Like it's anything that make me feel better and then like learning what those good things are and what leads to right. This path of destruction. I think really early on, I was constantly the kid that was if he only put his mind towards things, but I think if you only focused on those thing, and so that got me on this idea of like, whatever it is, and this is where obsession came in, right. Like if I could just focus on stuff and then I would dive 110%. And so what were the things that allowed me to do that?
5 (1h 4m 41s):
Right? Like first it was, you know, cigarettes, right? Like I could just sit there and read a play and read another play and smoke cigarettes, I guess. Right. Like definitely alcohol is in there. It's not like my primary. I, I do not go into functioning or nonfunctioning relationships where this, where I'm like, oh, I need this to function. Or I need this not to be totally dysfunctional. But early in my life, it was definitely a medicine of some sort. Right. Like I was definitely looking at it for relief. I drank a lot and drank, it was binge. Like, that was the way that we drank in high school and college.
5 (1h 5m 23s):
You had three hours to drink. You better drink a lot of it. Right.
9 (1h 5m 27s):
So true.
5 (1h 5m 30s):
So that was a thing. And then Adderall became a thing for me where it was like, this is something that allowed me to sit and work for hours on end. And certainly I think that, like, if I'm going to go to a psychiatrist, they would be like, I think you definitely have some traits that are right there with add or ADHD, but I did it. And so I would just abuse on my own. Right. Like, and I, I looked at it as the investment opportunity of a lifetime. Right. It was like, you're going to constantly have this on you. You're going to constantly be taking it. You're going to constantly be working. And that led to cigarettes. Right. That led to me avoiding all of my own personal shit.
5 (1h 6m 13s):
And then, right. Like the way I quote unquote got out of the throws of it was total collapse
2 (1h 6m 24s):
All the way to the bottom
5 (1h 6m 26s):
All the way. Right. Many times where I thought that I was going to die. Right. That I thought I was like, I would not sleep at night and a very functioning. Right. Nobody, nobody knew at least that I know of. Right. Like, I'm sure, like now looking back like, oh, something's going on there? Like, but it was a whole production for me. Right. Like I had the hand sanitizer to stop my hands from smelling like smoke. Right. So nobody needed to know that, like that was my preparation to get myself right. For, you know, the audition. And then it was, you know, I've got gum, I've got Gatorade to keep my body, like all of the, the electrolytes in my body up because I haven't slept in two days, I've got like coffee.
5 (1h 7m 17s):
And so like financially fell apart. Right. And no good reason. Right. Like best point in my career probably was like, you know, commercial money coming in, episodic money coming in. And for me, this was just like, great. Double-down on my investment. Great. Like be better, be better. And in my version of better was more, more altered, I guess. So never out of it and re emotionally my relationships fell apart. Right. I stopped paying attention to what other people, how other people were reacting around me.
5 (1h 7m 58s):
And that kind of led into acting, I guess, a little bit that like, it wasn't maybe until like five years ago. And Jen, this is where I'm a little bit jealous of you. Is that like, I did think that what you said earlier was like, I never considered myself, like the main part of gen actor being so valuable to whatever character I'm playing. I never considered that, the shit that I was trying in rehearsal, like just like a kid in a box, like had real time attacks on the other actors that I'm working with.
1 (1h 8m 31s):
I never considered that either. Like, but you're right. Like, it goes both ways, right.
5 (1h 8m 37s):
If you're in a, if you're in a meeting with a coworker at an office and they never focused on one idea long enough for everyone to kind of like gel with the idea, you don't work with that person for very long, even if what they're doing is an abusive or hurtful or anything like that, it's just not conducive to like, right. Especially for theater, where in Chicago, right? Like you get $300 for an eight week stipend. And so you better really get everybody read it better, really be getting something out of that rehearsal time. And I was selfish, you know, like this is about me and my journey and my character and, and everybody else better fight for that.
5 (1h 9m 17s):
And there's, and that's what conflict is. And that's what drama is.
2 (1h 9m 22s):
Well, what are your feelings about that? The stories that we hear about famous actors who do that, who still do that, that's still their process. Does it make you mad?
5 (1h 9m 31s):
Yeah, I think it's so misguided. Right. And I'm thankful that I've had enough experiences where I'm like, oh, you're, you were kind of the Dick there that could be bad. That could develop. Right. Or somebody who pulled me aside and was like, you know, that just wasn't necessary or whatever, really, really early on, I moved to New York and I was in a play festival. And it was like about what is that? The witch who they shove into the oven, what was that called? The Hansel Hansel and Gretel. I was Honsel I guess. And we were pushing the witch into the fire and they were like, yeah, you used a broom and we didn't have a broom.
5 (1h 10m 17s):
And so like fresh out of college, Mickey was like here, hand on the butt. And afterwards this woman came up to me and she was like, don't do that ever again. And I was like, oh my God, what did I do? I have no idea. I'm so sorry. And at first I was really kind of like, come on, like, what are we going to do? Like you needed to get it. So it was my first time being like, oh wow. And she was older than I was. And so to me that told me that she's been hurt in this process and that through whatever trauma that she's been through, like this is not the, the road to working with other people.
5 (1h 11m 2s):
Right. And so there's just like little moments like that, that I think if you're so blind you're so like, I need to get to the top. I needed to get to the top. I needed to get to the top. It's really easy to just that everybody is being
1 (1h 11m 16s):
Right. Right. It's like, that's
5 (1h 11m 19s):
Like
1 (1h 11m 20s):
This whole reckoning, this whole reckoning that the arts and humanity and the U S and everyone is doing, which is like, that may be true. You said something really important to me, which is, it may be true that people are overly sensitive. You didn't say this part, but I, I think people can be, oh, I can be overly sensitive. That's for fucking shirt. And it's also true that that is not the way to working with others. So like, both are true. Like I have sensitive issues. And you notice that like, doing that kind of behavior is actually not conducive to doing good art and creating and not, and getting jobs, the whole thing.
1 (1h 12m 2s):
So like, it's interesting. It's like you took the note and actually took it. Whether you took it all in or whatever, you took the note, but a lot of these dudes aren't taking the note. They're not getting the note. They're seeing it as the people are over sensitive, which they might be, but they're also not taking the note, like take the note, you know,
5 (1h 12m 21s):
I take the note. Absolutely. That's something like in college that we were constantly reminded. It's like, you don't have to respond. Just take it, write it down and think about it for a, for an eye and then come back. And like, but like what, what I hear a lot of more successful people do is go not a lot, but some is, they're like, yeah, I'll write down the note and I'll throw it in the garbage. Right. Like it serves me no purpose whatsoever, but yeah.
1 (1h 12m 48s):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's tricky. Yeah. I mean, I just, I just, I like what you said there about, like, you took, like, that happened to me on set on ER, I was being a goofball because I was so petrified that I was being an asshole, not on purpose, but I was an asshole and someone pulled me aside. It was actually Leonard Nimoy son who directed the, pulled me aside and said, listen, all this stuff you're doing with your code, whatever star it's costing us a lot of money. It's like $5,000 a minute, whatever you're doing there. And you're pulling focus. And so you're actually now a bad business investment. And I was like, and I was, you never told me the story.
1 (1h 13m 30s):
I just remembered it. Look, I buried so much shit. So it was like, it was like, I was petrified, horrified, embarrassed, and, and, and mad and mad because right. Like why shouldn't I get a chance to take up space and be big. But here's what I wasn't considering is that I was part of a whole, I was part of a team. This wasn't the jet. Even if it is your show, it's not your show. So it opened my eyes to like, people are watching. People are wanting to work with you that you don't do stuff like that. Or you'll only work once at this place. And I was like, oh, what I do matters. That's what I walked away with.
1 (1h 14m 11s):
Like actually what I do matters because it's affecting other people. And I was so mad and so embarrassed, the best thing that could've happened to me. And he wasn't a jerk about it. He wasn't a jerk. He was a straight up,
5 (1h 14m 25s):
There's definitely like a two sides to this. Right. Because for a lot of actors, the majority of actors we're hopping in, we're hopping into a process, we're hopping into a team and we are just expected to go and get in there. And so like, whatever, kind of like the good, the bad and the ugly comes with that. But then the other side is that you have these, these stalwarts, right? Like these very mega figures who are, who, who the production comes to them. Right. Like they are the, you know, it's, you know, Sophia Bush. And not that Sophia Bush is this like awful stall war, but like, right. Like on Chicago PD, it's about you.
5 (1h 15m 7s):
And th the series leads, right? Like the writers come in, the directors come in and they kind of conform these stories around you. Right. And so not that I've gotten to experience that by any means, but in the more independent film scene, right. Like I've gotten to understand what it's like to be with production for 30 to 60 days, and to show up and see people on a daily basis and just see, see, former me selves coming in and fucking around in the background and fucking things up and understanding how that, but the differences, right? Like we can't look at it like therapy. Like it might be therapeutic too, to become another character for an hour, but it can't be the way that we get through breakthroughs because we're also, you just can imagine treating everybody like you're treated your therapist.
5 (1h 15m 52s):
Like,
1 (1h 15m 55s):
I can't imagine Just for me. Yeah. I mean, that's not it. Yeah. And I, I, I love the idea of, if we're going to give feedback, like pulling someone aside, he didn't embarrass me in front of anybody else. And it was really brutal, but I love taking people aside and saying, Hey, this is my feeling. And this is why this affected me this way. And I just want to let you know how your behavior is coming across. And just so you know, and I was,
2 (1h 16m 31s):
But I never understand why so many people like Casey Affleck, they don't seem to get too many of these repercussions.
1 (1h 16m 39s):
Right. Because they started well for me and you know, my Casey Affleck story, I'll tell that another day. Oh, I, oh, I got into a thing. Oh, he came back
2 (1h 16m 48s):
And the feeling that you have a lie
1 (1h 16m 53s):
That's when I will say is that nobody has done that to them because a lot of them have grown up in the industry with people like famous brothers, like Ben Affleck. And they're afraid to give Casey Affleck notes. Right. Okay. But, but yeah, so that's exactly it. And people are scared, but no are people as scared. They are starting to do it. And it's starting to be very public right. With all these reckonings that are happening. So I think now hopefully the desire side effect is that people will check their behavior. I don't know if that's going to work. It probably go through a cycle again, where nobody gives a shit. And everyone's a sexist, racist asshole all the time open.
5 (1h 17m 28s):
They're
1 (1h 17m 30s):
Not either, but it's cyclical unless there's real internal change. So. Right. But anyway, I think that's why Jean, like, I think that they, they don't get called because people are afraid to call them on their shit. But now they're starting to, like, I've heard stories about big wigs being pulled aside and being like, Hey, Hey, I'm the intimacy coordinator on this movie. And what you just did is totally inappropriate. And we'll actually be asking you not to come back. If you do it again to like famous people. God.
5 (1h 18m 6s):
And there's, so there's this, that side of it. And then there's this other side where we're starting to see people being celebrated for not only the call-out, but, but the, the opposite behavior, right? Like the, the, the stuff that we want to model ourselves after. And like, for example, Chicago PD for the season for us on there for like one day, and there's the same, we're in a bar and an extra is playing a bartender and we're doing a few takes. And at one point the director stops. Then this is kind of like the land of TV where like the director does, the TV director typically comes in on an episode.
5 (1h 18m 50s):
Right. And, and they can tell around the stars and then they get to pick on the costars, or not necessarily a guest stars, right. Their guests, but like the coast, I was like, And so this director just zeroed in on this bartender and was like, what are you doing? You had it in your right hand, the first time, your left hand, the second time, right hand. How am I supposed to know which one to pick in front of him? And Sophia Bush just goes, Hey, did you get the take that you liked? And he's like, well, yeah. He goes, well, then why don't you just lay off him?
5 (1h 19m 31s):
And it was like, good for her. Holy shit. And it wasn't a, it wasn't a big, But it was this very like, and, and it did quiet quite as mouth we moved on. Right. And I just remember looking at her with this totally different light of like, and, and she's, you know, like, there's plenty about the way that she handled her Chicago PD contract about like, saying like, this is not the step for me. This is not the set for me for this reason, this reason, this reason. And unless these things change, I'm opting out of my seven year contract early. And they're like, yeah. Right. We'll Sue you. And she was like, no. And they like, and now she has got a development deal at whatever.
5 (1h 20m 14s):
And she's on a new show now, I think. And so you see stuff like that here, like proof of concept is not like you're, you're Jared Leto and you send people condoms. And that's, you know, celebrated even though like fuck award shows, right? Like they want to like give awards for people being children, but like, that's going to be celebrated in the real world of money residuals and like actual influence, maybe not social influence, but like industry influence.
2 (1h 20m 55s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina <em></em> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.