Matt Abrahams: Mastery can be motivational.
When you know something so well, it could be a signal that it's time
to change and disrupt yourself.
My name is Matt Abrahams.
I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I'm excited to once again be joined by Whitney Johnson.
Whitney joined me for episode 147.
As a reminder, Whitney is a globally recognized thought leader, keynote
speaker, and executive coach.
Whitney is also the award winning author of Disrupt Yourself: Putting
the Power of Disruptive Innovation to Work and Smart Growth: How to Grow
Your People to Grow Your Company.
Finally, Whitney hosts the aptly named podcast Disrupt Yourself.
I was fortunate to be a guest on her show, and we had a great
conversation, as we do here.
Welcome Whitney.
I loved our prior conversation where we talked extensively
about how to use disruption to further our careers and our goals.
Thanks so much for being here.
Whitney Johnson: Happy to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Shall we get started?
Whitney Johnson: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: All right.
So as a reminder to those listening in, can you redefine for us what you mean by
personal disruption for personal growth and share how this type of disruption
can really set our careers into flight?
Whitney Johnson: Most of us are familiar with the word disruption.
We've heard it, um, something that Clayton Christensen wrote.
It was this disruptive innovation and we typically apply it to products and
services and companies and countries.
But I had this ah-ha as I was working with him, that disruption
wasn't just all those things.
It was actually about people.
That you could in fact disrupt yourself.
But the big difference with personal disruption is whereas with every
other kind of disruption, you are disrupting something else.
So for example, ChatGPT is disrupting the copywriter that's writing your email.
In this particular case, you are disrupting you.
You are both the silly little thing and you're taking over the world.
And so when I think about personal disruption, what it really is is a
deliberate process of self innovation.
It's a decision where you've got these very thick neural pathways, these
comfortable routines, these super highways of habit, and you are making the decision
that you are going to rewire your brain.
You're going to create these new neural pathways.
You're going to step back from who you are right now into who you can be.
And that's what you do when you disrupt yourself.
But it is uncomfortable because if you think about your life on this graph paper
of existence, when you're disrupting yourself, you may be on the Y axis of
success at a twelve, and disrupting yourself by definition means you go down
that Y axis of success to a ten or a nine.
But the reason you do it, the payoff, is that you believe that right now your life
may be over one, up one, over one, up one.
And it might be perfectly fine, but what you really want, what you believe when
you disrupt yourself, is that your life will now be over one, up two, or over
one, up four, that the slope of your line, the slope of your life, will improve.
And so that's why you disrupt yourself.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that very clear definition and I love this
notion of this super highway of habit.
And really disruption is about getting off the highway and changing something.
And that change comes with at least perhaps a short term cost, but
it has potential for just really a bunch of long term benefit.
I want to dig a little deeper.
What are some of the signs that we're ready for disruption?
You know, many of us can just be really content and comfortable in our careers.
Are there certain signs you look for in the coaching and in the work
you do to really encourage people to say, hey, this is now some time for
disruption, or at least considering that?
Whitney Johnson: There are some really specific tells.
When you hear a person saying things like, I've paid my dues.
I could do this in my sleep.
When you're no longer slightly nervous about anything that you're
doing, when you haven't learned anything recently, when you find
yourself saying to your colleagues, that's just how we do things here.
Those are usually pretty good signs that you are in a place where
you have started to get bored.
And because you were at, what I call, the top of an S curve,
you've reached this mountain peak.
You're no longer learning, you're no longer getting dopamine, and mountain
climbers will tell you that any altitude above twenty-six thousand
feet is known as the death zone.
You're so high up, your brain and body literally start to die.
When you get to this place where you're saying things like, I've paid my dues
or I could dial it in, you are so high up, you're stagnating in such a way,
that if you don't disrupt yourself and do something new, your brain and
your body will literally start to die.
And I guess there's one other tell that I would say, is that when you have
this feeling, is sometimes you can't really even articulate it, but you
can feel deep inside of you that you were meant to do more on this planet.
Usually that's a sign that it's time for you to disrupt yourself.
And if you don't, if you don't listen to it, you may start underperforming
or in some cases you will get pushed, you will be disrupted.
Because the universe will give you a nudge because growth is our default setting.
And if you won't do it for yourself, the universe will give you that
opportunity for you to continue to grow.
Matt Abrahams: Growth is our default setting.
I really like that.
I think in many cases in reflecting on my own life, there have been
times where, I guess, I've worked against the default and then I've
become very unhappy or complacent.
And I really appreciate the very specific things that you itemize.
I reflect back on a job I had, and I said to myself, I know how to do this.
I can do this in my sleep.
And within two months I was looking for new work.
I'd love for you, one, to briefly summarize the S curve,
because I know that's really important for the work you do.
And then second, disrupting ourselves can be uncomfortable, by definition, right?
We're moving out of our comfort zone.
So if you have some advice and guidance on how to feel
comfortable with the uncomfortable.
Whitney Johnson: I had the privilege of working with Clayton Christensen
and investing for several years.
And so I applied this idea of disruption to individuals, but we also in our
investing, we're using the S curve.
And that was popularized sixty years by Everett Rogers.
And he used it to understand how do groups change over time.
But I've noticed a trend in myself.
I like to apply management theories to individuals, and that's
what happened with the S curve.
And so very simply, what it does is it allows you to understand what growth
looks like and what it feels like.
And there are three major parts.
There's the launch point of the S curve, and this is the place where
your brain is running a predictive model of what is it going to take for
me to get to the top of that curve.
Most of your predictions are inaccurate.
And so dopamine, the chemical messenger of delight, it actually drops.
So the experience that you can have when you do something new is you
can feel excited, but also terrified and frustrated and discouraged and
impatient, to the point that you may find yourself saying, this was a bad idea.
I shouldn't have done this.
I shouldn't have tried.
No, that's not necessarily the case.
What's probably the case is that you're doing something new and
you're uncomfortable and your brain is really struggling and
in fact the situation is normal.
So that's the launch point of the curve, the dopamine dropping.
But then you put in the effort, you tip into the sweet spot and you go
into that steep part of the curve.
And this is where you have these emotional upside surprises.
Your dopamine starts to spike.
It's hard, but not too hard.
It's easy, but not too easy.
You feel exhilarated and you feel like you're exactly
where you're supposed to be.
This is not the time when people look for new jobs because everything is working.
But then there's mastery and that's what we've been talking about.
You get to the top of the curve.
You're at the top of the mountain.
You really like to be master of all that you survey.
And yet, there's something built into your psyche that says, I like being here,
but if I stay here, I'll stop growing.
So it's a place of mastery in the sense that you've done what you came to do.
So now you've got a little bit of dopamine, but not a lot, but you're bored.
So at the launch point, growth feels slow but it's fast.
And the sweet spot growth is fast and it feels fast.
And in mastery, growth is in fact slow.
And by understanding all of that, it helps you navigate the process of growth.
So to your question that you started to ask, well, how do I do this?
How do I disrupt myself?
One of the things that I use all the time is that when I do new things
and I'm feeling really uncomfortable, I'm like Whitney, you're just at
the launch point of the curve.
It's going to get easier.
You made the decision that you wanted to be here.
You're confident that this is the place that you need to be.
So now just stay with this discomfort because it will get easier.
So that's a launch point strategy or tactic.
Another thing to think about is that when you're in mastery and
you think, I don't know that I want to jump, I'm really scared.
This is going to be hard to do something new.
I employ loss aversion theory.
So we all know Daniel Kahneman, Amos Tversky, they talked about the loss
aversion theory, and I use it in this way.
We sometimes try to motivate ourselves by saying, you know what, if I do this
new thing, it's going to be so amazing.
But we're two point two times more motivated by what we'll
lose then by what will gain.
So sometimes you can motivate yourself to do something new by saying,
what bad thing is going to happen?
Like I'll start to underperform and I might lose my job if
I'm not willing to jump.
And I think the third thing that I would say is to remind
yourself, why are you doing this?
Allow yourself to connect to a deeper sense of purpose, because if you can
be in that deeper sense of purpose, that's going to help you overcome fear.
It's going to help you keep going when it's fun, but it's also going to help
you be willing to do something new when you're feeling a little bit complacent.
Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate that explanation, launch, sweet
point, mastery, and how mastery is actually motivational to move beyond.
And you answered the other question I asked, which was how do you
handle the discomfort and concern?
And it sounds like what I heard you say is one recognizes that it's
totally normal and natural, especially depending on where you are in the curve.
And if you can have a deeper purpose that's driving you.
That it can help push you beyond some of the hesitation and concern that comes.
It strikes me that part of disrupting yourself is to have at least an
inkling, maybe even more, about what you're potential new career,
or new way of being, looks like.
What practices can individuals engage in to help them creatively
envision this potential future self and potential future career?
What are things that we can do to help us do that, that will ultimately
help us search for the jobs we want to search for, that we need to
search for, and develop ourselves professionally to be prepared for that?
Whitney Johnson: I think an important starting point is to really be
aware of what our strengths are.
And that could come across as being very glib and very cliche.
But in fact, to start with your strengths is much more difficult than it seems.
There are a number of reasons for this.
Number one is that because our strengths are something that we do
so well and so reflexively and so naturally, we're oftentimes not aware
of what our strengths actually are.
So that's the first thing.
And if you look at what compliments people give you, you're going to be able to
start to identify what your strengths are.
That's the first piece, but then there's a second piece to this is that
even when you know what your strengths are, sometimes you actually reject
them because they're so easy for you.
They're so reflexive.
You don't think they're actually valuable.
And it might even be that over time people have attached or affixed a label
to you around that strength so that you feel like there's this reductionist,
like when I was growing up I played the piano and people would be like, oh, well
that's Whitney, she's good at the piano.
I came to reject that compliment, reject that strength because I didn't want to
be solely defined by this thing that everybody said that I was good at.
And yet by rejecting that or any other strength that we have, then
we're not doing something that is a natural gift that we have.
And only, I believe, can we make an idiosyncratic contribution in the world
if, number one, we know what our strengths are, number two, we value our strengths,
and number three, we own those strengths.
And so I think I would really encourage people to start there as they're trying
to figure out what they might want to do.
Now, beyond that, I'll give you two other thoughts.
I think it's very interesting, and you may have seen the work of Tara Swart.
She talks about action boards, not vision boards, but action boards.
And pulling up photos, pictures, images of things that might be
interesting to you professionally.
And the reason that's so important is that oftentimes when we think about
things that we might do, our conscious mind immediately says, oh, I couldn't
do that, oh, I couldn't do that.
And if we start to have those images or those visions, it bypasses our
conscious mind and allows ourself to just explore a little bit more
about what we might do differently.
So those are the two thoughts that I would suggest, is to look at the
images that kind of draw you in, that you find yourself curious about, and
then importantly, really get to the point where you identify, you value,
you own your strengths, because that's going to be a place where you're going
to be able to do really great work.
Matt Abrahams: That's, I think, really good advice.
Really understanding what it is you want in a visceral sense,
what it looks like, can be very motivating and can help you focus.
And then really understanding your strengths and honoring those
strengths and respecting those strengths instead of rejecting them.
And with that in mind, once you have some of that information, then I think
you can start doing exploration, have some informational interviews, check out
tools like LinkedIn and look at people's career paths who have similar interests.
Spend some time checking out writings, podcasts, other things
that people who have done what you're interested in doing have done.
So you can get a good sense of what it looks like jumping
from one curve to a next.
And I think that's really helpful.
So thank you for that.
So we started by talking about this notion of fulfillment and purpose.
I'm wondering if as we come to an end, you can help give us some insights into
some of the steps that help ensure as best you can, I know there's no guarantee,
that when you're disrupting your career, disrupting your life, what are some things
you can do strategically and perhaps even tactically to increase that fulfillment?
Because it's possible that the disruption could go the other way, right?
It might not lead to something that's more fulfilling.
Have you found best practices or things people do that help ensure or at least
point in the direction of success?
Whitney Johnson: I think there are two aspects to this.
So first of all, I think you point yourself in the directions of success
when you're simply willing to experiment and going back to that statement earlier
of growth is our default setting.
We're wired to grow.
So you're pointing yourself in that direction simply by experimenting.
I do think that there are two things that I think about, but then I'll go
to, I think what's actually where your question is, to ask yourself, do I
think that this thing is achievable?
And not, do I believe I can do it, but do I believe that I can get to the
point where I believe that I can do it.
Which I think is important.
So there's a little bit of that leap of faith that you're going
to take in order to do it.
I think there's also a question that you can ask yourself is,
is this familiar yet novel?
So there's enough familiarities.
There's some research that's done around, you know, you want eighty-five
to ninety percent familiar, and then ten to fifteen percent novel.
So that's going to create these parameters where it's going to feel
doable and probably aligned with something that makes sense for you.
But I think that the biggest piece is to ask yourself, does
this align with my values?
And sometimes it's going to align with your current set of values.
But sometimes disrupting yourself is about you've made the decision that
you want to change your value system.
And so will doing that align with the values of who I want to be, who I aspire
to be, and what does that need to look like in order for that to be possible?
And then the thing that I'm just thinking as we're talking about
this is to recognize that this is very much an iterative process.
This is discovery driven.
I talked earlier about this idea of building those new neural pathways.
When you're doing something new, it is not a super high way of habit.
You are basically put yourself into a jungle and you're creating
a cow path with a machete.
And that's going to be hard work and it's going to be uncomfortable and you're
not going to know what you're doing.
And so allow yourself as you're trying to find your purpose, and figure out
if this is the right direction for you, is to give yourself some grace.
And the last thing I would say is there are going to be people in your life
who love you and care about you and you're, they're going to be able to say
to you, that makes sense for you to do.
I know it's hard right now, but keep going.
Matt Abrahams: That support can be so important in all of this.
It really resonated with me when you talked about the success and feeling
fulfilled in our careers, in our life.
The way we judge that might change because the value system that we have,
as we move through that disruption towards whatever that change in
career is, will change as well.
And we had Dorie Clark, who I know you're familiar with, and
she echoes what you talked about, this being a time of discovery.
She talks about it in terms of hypotheses and discovery.
Hypotheses, experimentation are all really talking about the same thing.
This is a time of flux, but it's flux with the foundation of purpose and direction.
So Whitney, before we end, I'd like to ask you two questions about careers.
Are you up for that?
Whitney Johnson: I am.
Absolutely.
Matt Abrahams: All right.
Question number one.
What is the best career advice you ever received and why?
Whitney Johnson: As I think about this question, it's actually
causing me to do a reframe.
So early in my career, I had a situation where I was working on Wall Street.
My boss had just gotten fired.
They probably would have fired me too, but I had good performance reviews.
I was pregnant, so that was a good insurance policy.
I had this experience of feeling like they shoved me into equity
research, like they disrupted me into this job that I did not want.
But as I think about that job, it was a time of tremendous growth technically,
from a leadership perspective, from a personal perspective, and
it turned out to be a career maker.
And the reason that I am drawing on this as the best career advice is
that they said to me, Whitney, we think you'd be really good at this.
And so I'm thinking about when people say to us, I think you'd
be really good at this and we find ourselves rejecting it, just stop
and stay with it a little bit longer.
Try to dispense with all the baggage that might be attached
to why you can't hear it.
And when someone holds up that mirror and says, I think you'd be
good at this, be willing to listen.
And consider it deeply and thoughtfully.
Matt Abrahams: I've had a similar experience where somebody said,
I think you'd be good at this.
And I resisted it.
It turned out that they were absolutely right.
And it fundamentally changed my career trajectory as a result of that.
Thank you for sharing that.
Final question.
What is one thing you wish you would have done differently in the
way you've managed your career?
Whitney Johnson: I wish that I would have at a much, much younger age seen that
discomfort is not a bug, but a feature.
I wish I could have understood that.
So that when I'm in this place of being really uncomfortable and awkward
and not knowing what I'm doing, to recognize that this is simply
a signal of encouragement that I'm in a place where I'm about to grow.
Matt Abrahams: The discomfort is actually a signal, and it's a
signal that good things are ahead.
Whitney, good things are behind us based on this interview, and I know they're
ahead of us as you and I continue to collaborate, but as everybody listening
in can benefit from what you said.
This idea of disruption and looking for that change, how mastery can
be motivational, and the things we can do to handle the discomfort and
the ambiguity that come with it, so useful, and so helpful, and a true
pleasure to revisit this conversation with you and to learn from you.
Thank you so much.
Whitney Johnson: Likewise.
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Think Fast Talk Smart.
This episode was produced by Ryan Campos, Aech Ashe and me Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to Podium Podcast company.
Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
Be sure to subscribe and rate us.
Also, follow us on LinkedIn and check out FasterSmarter.io.
for deep dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletter.
Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes,
AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings and much more at FasterSmarter.io/premium.