Trey: Hello and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and everything you need to know.
I'm Trey!
Jude: And I'm Jude.
How you doing, Trey?
Trey: Well, Jude, I'm excited because today we get to welcome back a creator
capable of 3d printing reality into whatever she wants, whether she's
willing the infinity gauntlet, lightsaber combo as a flex or streaming
the crafting process on Twitch.
We're delighted to welcome leech back to the podcast.
Welcome back, leech.
Welcome.
Thanks for having me.
How's
Leech: it going?
It's going well.
I'm just like floored every time your intro is so thoroughly like researched.
It's ridiculous.
Oh my
Trey: gosh.
Well, thank you.
It has been entirely too long since you have been on this podcast.
It hasn't been since what if, and I think one of the most exciting things that has
happened is you have found your way back to streaming your 3d prints on Twitch.
I was wondering if you could let the listeners know how that's been
going and what they can expect when they turn into a LICO stream.
Leech: Sure.
So January 1st I decided I was going to come back to the
streaming space and to see.
If I can do it again, thing, you know, with all the life changes
and such, and it's been happening every Sunday and it's been great.
I gave myself way too hard of a first project to complete.
And I think I have upped my standards over time.
So I'm on month four now of creating the gauntlet.
And I have now gotten myself.
I've been a boxy resin kit sitting right next to me.
Like it's getting intense.
So that should actually be wrapping up soon.
And it's, it's been fun.
If anything, it, it solidifies that I do want to do this and I do want to
create, and I do actually need to make time for myself to do things I enjoy.
So it's been, it's been great.
It's been a great
Jude: experience.
That's really cool.
So when it's done, is it, I don't know.
I haven't seen it.
Is it movable?
Like you're going to snap with, so, yeah,
Leech: so it's completely movable.
It's going to be mounted to a glove and I'm going to have
the electrical in it as well.
When I make the stones, I'm going to actually embed them with LEDs.
And so then it'll be fully controlled as well.
And I don't know if I would go as far as like you do a snap and they do
things, but, you know, I don't know quite yet, but maybe I will know.
Cause I just thought of that and I might take a note of that, but, uh, Yeah,
it's going to be completely wearable.
It goes, it's so large.
My fingers.
Aren't going to really fill it out at all.
And when I put on the full thing, it goes past my elbow.
So it's, it's the real deal.
Jude: It's truly fantasize.
It is.
Leech: It really is.
Yeah.
Trey: Yeah.
I think you've shared a photo on Twitter of how big it was by
wearing it without the fingers.
And you have made the point that it would have been a way bigger power move
for Thanos to use a fingerless gauntlet.
I'll make sure to link that into the show notes so people can see
just how powerful that truly is.
It really
Leech: was.
I was kind of like I was shook.
It was great.
I never would have ever imagined it unless I had it in my hands with no fingers.
It was.
How's it straight for
Jude: sure.
Yeah.
That's great.
So pre-order for all your Congress caused blatant.
Leech: I mean, this actually was a lot harder with a smaller printer,
but we're getting a larger printer.
I think it was quarter three of this year and it's going to pretty much, I like to
say, like it can print a storm trooper.
Helmet and like, you know, the click of a button compared to, oh, I have
to piece it and to like, you know, cut it, slice it up into six different
items and then glue it all together.
It's like, it's going to kind of be one and done sand and paint kind of situation.
And I'm so pumped for that.
I think.
Anything bigger, I'm going to kind of wait for that printer, but it's
going to be really hard to wait when, you know, especially when this
is complete and I'm just going to get hungry for more power and such.
Yeah.
Jude: So I didn't ask you the first time, the first time we met, I remember asking
you about this and I don't remember where you were at with it, the dark Sabre.
Leech: So.
Models I've been working on for the sabers are like, you know, the ones when
you're a kid and you can like switch it.
And it all like unfolds instantly.
And the models for that are so thin.
They're so thin for the saber part, because it all needs to
print in one piece and is nested.
So my saber actually broken three different places.
I still have the, the hill, but the rest of the blade itself broke.
So I'm wondering if there's a way of reinforcing that model and then I will be
able to move past the generic and go for the dark because, oh, that, especially
if I know how to like throw LEDs in there, can you imagine like, you know,
like some black light ones or something?
Jude: Oh yeah.
So, well, the thing is, is when you put it back together, you're going to
be like crossing IPS and it's going to be like Aragorn sword, right?
Leech: Pretty much.
Yeah.
I ultimately, like, I think I've said this before.
Like my goal is to have just, I want walls of.
W pop culture, helmets and weapons, and just everything
just on my walls everywhere.
I think I've compared it to like hat, walls, fitting or shoe walls
that people have in their homes.
I just that's.
That's the dream.
That's the dream right there.
Jude: That's awesome.
Trey: Yeah.
Well, if you want to keep up with Leach's work and see the progress,
make sure you're following them as XO lead show on Twitter, as
well as twitch.tv/xo lead show.
And of course we'll link to all of those in the show notes.
Now, before we get into the meat of the episode, I just wanted to
quickly say, dude, thank you so much for driving the episode last week.
I'm sure people by now know I did unfortunately have to miss kind
of drop that on you last minute.
Uh, and I just wanted to say thank you and to TJ for that wonderful conversation, uh,
last week, however, I wanted to quickly clarify the Schrodinger's guests joke at
the time that I had texted you that joke, TJ had both confirmed and unconfirmed
his availability for the episode that we were supposed to do last week.
And so I joked that I was going to write in the intro that we had our first
Schrodinger's guests that we got to confirm by welcoming them to the show.
However, the irony being that I ended up being the one in the box because I
didn't even make it to the show last week.
So hopefully that clarifies a little bit of the darkness of the humor,
but ultimately I think it exposes the surface level, understanding that
Jude: no, no, no.
TJ is TJ to his joint to have TJ.
Um, he missed you, but you know, I mean, he even said how, how much
more relaxed he was this time?
It was just like, dude, he was great.
It was just like having a conversation versus the first time
he's like, I felt like I was writing a book, um, being on the pod.
Uh, but yeah.
So no, it was, it was a lot of fun.
You know, he didn't take any offense to you dropping out on him last minute,
but we, we, we drove that truck in pretty well.
So yeah,
Trey: I would say so well.
Yeah, of course.
If you downloaded this episode, you know, we're going to be talking
about season one, episode four of moon night and titled the tomb.
So we're going to do this is we have some pre spoiler thoughts where we
can talk about the episode without getting too much into the spoilers
before jumping into the spoiler zone.
So before we get there, leech, what are your pre spoiler
thoughts for this episode?
Leech: This episode made me hungry for more, in a way that I haven't felt since.
I mean really one division.
Yeah.
I mean, I think you've said something similar Trey.
I just realized that I think you might even tweak it that a few
episodes ago, but that's actually what I wrote down here in my notes.
I am so hungry for all of this just colorful lore and
I'm just would eat it all up.
It's great.
Trey: Yeah.
I, I think that's 100% what I was feeling at the end of this tier.
And like, I even had to do the leach, a litmus test of like, this
is how I want to talk about this.
Is this a spoiler or not?
Because this may be a short section.
I don't know if it's possible to talk about this episode without spoiling it.
It's just so bizarre.
And the one division comparison I think fits very absolutely
Jude: it really does.
Um, and I think to tread lightly, but what do you thinks?
A, I am very much the champion.
If you've listened to us regularly, you know, I'm very
much championing eight episodes.
This one very much.
This has to be eight.
We have to feel like there's so much left.
That needs to be answered.
But, but I think Lisa is right in the sense of, he just wanted more.
You know, and, uh, cause it's, it's something that
I'm really, really enjoying.
Uh, and then I started wondering with the way this episode went, cause I
know we're appreciable their thoughts.
So I'm going to just say this far, it would have been neat as a
season cliffhanger with season two.
That would have been really, really cool.
Trey: You are a madman to want to make people wait that long.
I can't imagine that like you're right.
And that would be that much of a, like from season to season cliffhanger,
that would be excruciating.
Leech: What do you think?
This is like the early two thousands, like, come on.
We don't wait for anything
Trey: anymore.
Tonally at guidance fits fits in with the money stuff.
Jude: Oh my gosh.
Yes.
So it's a game of Thrones.
Tried it and they didn't pull it off.
Well, how dare you cliffhanger?
Trey: How dare you?
Well,
Jude: I would participate in that at all.
Trey: Only the last season, unfortunately, where I decided to podcast.
Well, I think that's going to do it for the priest boiler thoughts.
Like I said, it's kind of hard to talk about this one without
getting into the spoilers.
So like I said, we're going to jump into the spoiler zone where it will be
fair game for all spoilers in the NCU.
We'll see you on the other side
and we're back.
So, dude, I'm going to take a page out of your playbook from last week.
Cause I liked the way that you had set up the most important
topics at the top of the show.
So this week we're going to be delving into exploring the.
Honesty and protection and the nucleus of our personality.
So starting with the first, most important topic, this one is really going to allow
us to focus on the scenes in which Layla leads, Steven and mark through the deserts
all the way into the tombs, through the discovery of Mark's history with her.
Leech starting with you.
Uh, where would you like to start within this section?
It's too much pressure.
Leech: I don't know.
My notes are not in order.
So I'm trying to figure out the best place to start we're expense
explaining the past currently
Trey: pretty much.
Yeah, just kind of like Layla's Layla's section within this, uh, this is where
we get a lot of the implied supernatural violence is that solely gets uncovered
with the gruesome dissecting scene.
I don't know how else to describe it.
Uh, and we see a lot of Layla's, uh, navigation ability as she's
making her way through the tombs.
As she's running away from the, I'm going to say mercenaries that were
trying to take her and mark out.
Um, it's a very Laila centric episode.
This this go around.
Leech: I feel like I held my breath, the entire sequence.
And when she screamed from adrenaline, that's kind of where I was at
too, because it was non-stop.
There was the tiny little respite for gathering supplies, but it was nonstop
near misses in a, not in a, I almost got hit way, but in a, I almost got completely
squished and obliterated from this truck.
And the guy on the back with his gun, you know, like so many, uh, near misses.
And it was, it was just so tense.
And then to also add emotional, personal stuff on top of it,
I wanted to scream as well.
Like I couldn't even imagine.
And that was, that was a lot for just hitting the ground running
for this episode, for sure.
Jude: Oh, yeah.
Like I, I was expecting it and through that sequence and like I had mentally got,
was like, oh, this is Layla's episode.
This is, you know, I expected mark slash Steven to be out the
overwhelming majority of it.
I was surprised when he came out of it.
Uh, when he did,
Trey: you know, and as you were describing that, the catharsis of Layla
screaming and that moment after she, his like very tightly hugging that
wall, trying to make it across the gap.
That's where I thought you were talking about, but you really put into perspective
how she's basically under fire almost literally from the start to that moment.
Uh, yeah, she, she went through a lot and you know, I talked a lot about implied
violence in the first and second episode.
I think the alternating pattern in which we see the bombastic
runaway from the mercenaries and dodging the bullet fires in.
Jack did with the moments where she's gathering supplies and you
just see the shot of the bloody utensil, but she doesn't recognize it.
It's just us as the audience is really creating that sense of danger.
Uh, and I think it's something they've done such a great job with that at
that beginning section, whenever she successfully evades the mercenaries when
Mark's just standing there or Steven, I believe at that point, there was a
point where I genuinely thought we were getting our first glimpse at the implied
third identity from last week, because something about it was just so spooky
and then he just stares at the camera.
And then everything's good again.
This show, I think has really solidified the spooky nature of the show.
This made
Leech: me wonder if it was timed with the parental controls, because
that's kind of how spooked I was and I was not ready for that.
Uh, you know, there is violence and Falcon, and that was a lot, but this was,
this was more and it felt very different.
And I know this story is completely different, but it was a lot, but
it was completely contextual.
So,
Jude: well, I think we got to see at this time and, and, and main red.
Right.
And I guess, but what I mean by that is the first time, the first couple
of episodes where it was implied.
There was a, if you think of like, for the point of view, if it was
Stephens and Mark's doing the violence, so we don't get to see it because.
Seeing it through Steven.
And then the second episode, we only get to see what mark sees because
it's Steve and the one jumping in.
And since he's completely passed out, the, the violence, any of the models is
taking place is we experienced it with Layla, you know, and, and that whole made
it seem worse without showing it to us in the beginning that, that implied, I think
that made this even feel more intense because now we finally get to see it.
And as an association of, oh, the quote, unquote protagonist hero
is out, not just passed out, but also like country's gone, you know?
So you also have the sense of like, oh, where's your protection?
How do you get out of this at this point?
And I think all of that helps you ramp it up.
Leech: Yeah, it does.
It's more dangerous now.
It's yeah, I very much felt that for sure.
In this episode,
Trey: you know, and as much as the danger is ratcheting up, this
isn't the first time that we've seen supernatural antagonists.
Cause we have the Jackal and episode two, this time we had a
different type of enemy, is it?
I wanted to throw this out there.
Is that, is it fair to say this might be one of the grossest episodes or at
least moments we've seen in the MCU because we didn't get full on shots of,
I believe it's the hecka priest that was.
Dissecting the person, but we heard every little gushy and gory
detail of what was happening there.
Leech: I had a thought about that too, as it was happening, when you're
that afraid, you're trying to listen to see what your next move should be.
So you're like hyper aware of it happening because of the danger.
And I feel like they crank the volume up and it was incredibly
unnerving listening to those moist
Jude: places.
Well, I was, I was going to say, not even that before you got that, you had Steven's
description of, oh, this is blood.
And what do you call it?
Human bits.
Trey: Gore lake.
I think I wrote it down, uh, chunky chunks of meaty bits.
Yeah.
Jude: I am not laughing at chunks.
Immediate pits.
Trey: I'm sure the dog has a name.
So sorry.
Jude: What's your dog's name?
Briefly.
Okay.
Let's close aliens.
Close Ellen Ripley.
Is that what a Trump, Eleanor flee?
No,
Leech: it's because he ripped one as soon as we got him.
Trey: Nice.
Okay.
Just for clarity, all of this is staying in.
I hope, you know, if that's okay with your permission?
Jude: Well, I had asked what the dog's name is, cause you held up
the dog and just showed us the top.
Right.
But like, so I started laughing just as Trey gave what Stephen's line
was about the meaty chunky beds.
Right.
And like, without the video that it just sounds like I started
laughing at the meaty bits of people.
Trey: Dude, you're brave, you weren't afraid of this episode.
So to get us back on track, we were discussing the
gruesomeness of this episode.
Uh, and you were detailing the way Steven described the
scene as we kind of walked in.
Jude: Right.
Well, and all I was gonna say about that with him, detailing
that out, you has happened already.
And so you see with Steven's subscriptions, you see in here, the
aftermath of it, and then again, it's that implied you're with them hiding
and just hearing the sound and you already visually kind of know the
results of that, of what's going on.
And so you don't really need to see.
'cause, you know, what's going to the end results going to be then just
like you said that hearing it what's my next move, my heightened sense
of awareness and that situation, you know, it was really well planned out.
It was,
Trey: you know, at leech, I think to borrow the way you used it,
the heightened sense of awareness.
I think one of the brilliant things this episode does is intentional or not.
It feels like it is invoking the last of us video game, which if people aren't
familiar, it is a post-apocalyptic game that are zombies, not zombies.
They have things called the clickers.
The sound that this hiccup makes in the episode is almost 100% the same sound.
And I like the way that you phrased it with that heightened sense of
sound because that video game.
Places that importance on there as well.
And it just imbues a deeper sense of fear.
So
Leech: anyone who's played that game and saw the episode had like a mere
cat moment of like, oh, what's that?
I recognize that.
How do I talk?
How do
Trey: I dock?
Yes.
You know, one thing I want to add, they've done this multiple times.
I can't remember exactly where it was last week, but they've always
given us a point of view perspective.
And then we think it's just a static shot, but it moves.
So it implies that the camera is another, let's just say character in the scene
we saw in episode one, when there was somebody who was on the balcony of
the museum, looking at Stephen episode two, I believe we see I'm sorry.
Episode three.
We see it.
When mark is in Cairo, this.
Episode does it, but without the camera movement, where you hear the clicker
watching from a hidden purse, a place when Layla and Steven are kind of making
their way at the entrance of the tomb.
So again, just more good work on that setting the stage before they
really give us the full on look.
And I think they also have this nice contrast between the almost fair.
Of the hecka, as well as the intentionality of the moves that
it has on the dissecting table, because we already talked about that.
But the two other scenes, I think that got me the most is whenever the zombified
hecka is like on the rafters and you see their fingers holding on to the
floorboard, as it tries to get to Steven.
And then you see the hands come through the rocks as Layla is
trying to shimmy her way across.
So I think I'm still scarred by this episode.
Jude: And the thing is, is they ratchet it up.
You have all of that.
And then the fact that they get separated, um, and you trying to
stick with Layla here, but like you see what she's going through.
You have in the back of your mind, not just that country's not available, but
Stephen refusing to let mark get involved.
And so.
I dunno.
I just lost the, the wording there, but like, so that in terms of intensity,
in terms of scariness of like, man, they, they really put it this way.
It really did a good job.
I feel like you couldn't get out
Trey: of it.
Oh yeah.
So within this section, I think one of the biggest things we have left to
talk about is Layla meeting with HARO.
And this is where we get that confirmation that mark from Hearos telling was involved
in the death of Layla's father leech.
How were you feeling throughout the entirety of that scene?
As well as when Layla finally confronts mark?
Leech: I thought it was interesting that I also had this investment
in this character that I just, just learned about the father.
I think it's just cause I want to know as much as possible of Layla and how
she fits in on all of this, because there's, you don't just like no more.
Like you, weren't just his neighbor, like there's history, there there's something.
And so I was grasping on every word and I was, I was a little disappointed
that she turned around, but there obviously is enough draw when that
name is mentioned that she would stop and turn around and go back.
So that was kind of powerful to me because everything she's done so far.
Has been, you know, all about the mission and then, you know, she hesitated.
And so that, that spoke very loudly to me about how important this, you
know, this discussion is about her
Trey: father.
You know, I, I think you really hit the nail on the head about how you
both were invested and disappointed.
She turned around, she paused and you could see the pain on her face.
And it made like if I didn't already have enough beef with heroin enough, my little
scarab, the fact that he threw that at her as a, as a way to reel her back in.
Oh yeah, come on, dude.
I'm I'm so mad.
So too
Leech: cheap.
Oh my God.
I like the audacity.
Like I can't even like he, he was, you know, what that tells me
too is like, he's playing dirty.
So he's like playing extra dirty and trying to delay her any way possible.
It's just that whole thing was, it's just felt really complicated.
Like there's like weird history there that we have no, no way of knowing.
So we have to just grasp on to every word in that conversation and that's all we
Trey: get.
What's telling them.
Is that when cause HARO sets it up as though he wants to let out this truth
and Layla cuts him out at the passage, he goes, what are you telling me?
Mark was there.
It's telling that it's something that has crossed her mind before.
Did you feel that same way too, too?
Do you think this is an idea that she has held onto without confirmation?
I don't
Jude: know the reason why I say that is because you had, in the other
episode where they started to plant that seed of, of mark knows more about
what happened to her dad and then he realizes, and so that's, that's why
part of me wants to say, yeah, I want to kind of go down that road with
you of like she's kind of suspect.
Um, but it also, the way they set it up so far, it makes sense for her, you know?
Cause you had the conversation.
It was like every time I think I know you, something else
happens and I don't don't know.
And so it leaves us where she is completely can't trust.
Um, what she thought she did.
Th that's and that's why it's hard to tell if she always had thought that way.
Trey: And I mean, she does seem pretty, I don't want to say
accepting, but she listened as mark was very adamant like that.
Wasn't me, you know, that I didn't kill him.
And then that's where she starts to say, okay, well you led the killer to him.
It, to me, I think what stood out to me most within that entire father
section of this episode is it's heavy enough that she had to deal with this
realization, but the, to then learn, this is the basis of their relationship.
Like the reason they met is because Martin getting entangled with whatever
happened in the murdering of her father.
That's excruciating as well, man.
And maybe men have, maybe that's messed up that mark would hold onto it for that long
in the relationship and not say anything.
I couldn't
Leech: imagine the blend of like, you know, longing and
repulsion at the same time.
It's it was a lot.
And I feel like the actor portrayed that.
I, I got that from that scene.
Just pure confusion and just love, hate.
Trey: I mean, what did HARO say?
He's an agony.
Like he synced it with the judgment.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and it's interesting too, the, the whole dynamics of the relationship,
because it does get the sense of how do I want to put it when we first meet her
and she's not, she doesn't know about Steven and she's like all our adventures
together and, and, and it felt engaged the impression that, uh, the foundation
or their relationship, wasn't very solid.
In the first place, it was more about the adventures together and
that shared experience, common goal.
Yeah.
Rather than actually knowing each other.
And Layla's discovering this, I'm like, Hey, I don't really
know who this person is.
Um, and, and so for me, I'm kind of looking at it part of like,
you probably shouldn't have got married in the first place.
Um, you know, uh, but you have those moments where it's
the same time you can see.
Well, well they just care for each other, you know?
Um, so yeah, it's very like bad, like to early two thousands,
late nineties teen romance.
Like, you know, the whole, like, she's all that like, oh, it's supposed to be a
vet and I fall in love with you anyways.
Kind of thing.
Like, oh, I go there because it's, I feel guilty because I'm
gonna fall in love with you.
Anyway.
Then now I can't tell you, like I said, field,
Leech: I felt that when the statement was made that, oh, you know, what's con gone.
It's just Steven.
There's no more mark.
And she says like, well, don't you think that you should have
discussed that with me or not?
She didn't say discuss.
She said, like, told me.
And I was just like, oh, here we go.
But then she ended up saying like, but you didn't even tell me it wasn't, uh, this
is my decision to, and I was expecting all of that, that whole thing, but it was
just like, you didn't even tell me, like, could you have at least told me your wife?
And I, I actually really respected that.
I don't know who exactly wrote those words, but I really appreciated
that because I don't need to see another female mummy movie kind of
thing, where the chicks, just the.
And then I'm done with that.
And I really appreciated that kind of weird character development in that line.
Jude: Yeah.
But you're right.
It, it, it was, it was a good way to put it because that could
have been written differently.
Leech: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Trey: Yeah.
Whenever that scene played out, like I immediately was thinking of the episode
with yabba, where she talked about how Marcus taking that choice away from her
and here it's her reclaiming like, Hey, I could have decided that for myself.
You just didn't let me know.
Um, so I do want to say a couple of things.
We're getting to the point where we can move into the next section.
However, I think we can kind of bridge that gap by talking about some of the
relationship stuff that we have here, going into the mark and Stephen section.
However, I'm glad you brought up the mid to early two thousands romance dude,
because one of the things that I wanted to put in my priest, part of the thought
that I didn't, I ended up changing this.
This is the most it's felt like the mummy.
I mean, outside of the setting, of course it's an action adventure movie
of like watching Brendan Frasier and Rachel Wise, just exploring pyramids
and fighting off supernatural.
Like that's the only thing I could think of throughout the
middle section of this episode
Jude: is, is this the point where I say I've never seen the mummy
Leech: wait.
Okay.
That is Jude.
Okay.
Just double-check that's usually traced
Trey: line.
Being so afraid because my family wanted to go see it.
And I was so afraid of the trailer that I didn't want to see it.
And I ended up loving it.
Like that was the first time I remember like a horror quote unquote movie.
But now that I've seen, it's like, not, not as skewed as I've done it, number
Jude: the trailer.
I remember it coming out, but there was something about it that I just
didn't feel compelled to go see it.
I loved it.
Trey: I think I vaguely remember watching that with your brother.
I think he went with us.
I'll
Jude: have to double check.
That would be family.
Daniel fam.
Trey: Oh man.
So to bridge this gap, leech, you brought up how or no, I'm sorry.
Jude.
You brought up how you were wondering whether or not they should have even
gotten married because it doesn't seem like there was a substantial
part of a relationship there.
I don't know how I feel about the forced love triangle that's
going on with this episode.
Is it, is it weird to anybody else or is that just.
I'm fine if
Leech: they address it.
And then they're like nip it in the bud, like next episode, because
it's going to need to be addressed.
Like there's two dudes involved now in the same body.
Like there's no way you can get around it.
I don't feel
Trey: at least.
Yeah.
I think what stood out to me is you both see, there's clearly a connection with
Layla and mark and Steven, because she has that, it's like, oh, you smell like him.
Or she's like smiling in the center frame whenever he's talking about the, the
statue and he's geeking out about it.
So she has this fondness for him.
But at the same time, she had like that weird look on her face
whenever he went in for the kiss.
And it sh it's obviously it's awkward because I'm sure she's having to go
through what it means to have these two identities in the same person.
But it feels like something that is not fully explored yet.
And I'm just kind of left uncomfortable with it.
So.
It
Leech: kind of, it reminds me of like, when you, the whole thing
of, you know, it feels different.
If you do the thing out of kindness for me versus you're doing the thing.
Cause I asked you to, and I feel like Steven is the, the mark
in a way, doing things that.
Yes versus like, that's just mark.
It's like, so like the Steven is like this, like, oh, you're kind.
And you're like, nice.
And you talk to me and you're so much softer and it's like,
but that's not actually mark.
That's like this weird fantasy.
He exactly.
Yeah.
It's like a fantasy of like, not the same person.
So I think it's, it's just super, it's like, there's
nothing to build off of that.
It's just all a construct and it's all in your head in a sense, because
they're two different people.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, it it's so, so like in, you know, you meet somebody and they're
the most wonderful person in the world.
Thank you.
You're the most wonderful person in the world.
And the next thing, you know, eventually they're not, oh, so
Leech: marriage.
So you're talking about marriage in general.
Okay.
Jude: It just, it just is.
And you either relationship ends and you move on and nothing wrong
with that, or the acceptance for the who, who they are and move on.
And so like, and this is where I really felt for Layla.
Cause it was like, this is physically the same person.
Right.
But there's always the messiness of our relationship.
This is who they really are warts and all.
And then there's the pedestal version slash fantasy.
If that makes sense.
The, like from the initial meet.
How about that from the initial honeymoon infatuation kind of stuff.
And she's getting to like, re-experience that through Steven, but with literally
the same body that she's already attracted
Leech: to, I couldn't even.
Even you have someone that's, you know, oh, they choose the things
I like, and they don't have your annoying habits, but it's like, let's
just throw them in the same body.
That's not confusing.
Like, yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and it reminds me of a movie that I love and the book is great as well,
a high fidelity, you know, and one of his in the was that of like, yeah, all
those other women, all those other people that I get interested in, it's just a
fantasy and it's not fulfilling because there's no depth the person that I'm with.
But here it's like, like you said, you're getting the personality traits that you
would like wish for out of this person.
And physically the same are the personality traits, maybe the idea,
the other not missing a personality.
I know, I know we're dealing with different identities, but
in that context, it's, it's these interests, that's the draw.
But with somebody that, you know, in a very
Trey: intimate way.
Yeah.
And you know, I've been trying to be careful because, you know, we've
set up how this isn't an accurate portrayal of did, but at least within
the context of the show, it feels like they have written Stephen to be the
ideal version of the common interest.
And so.
I think, uh, I think it was you league.
It was the fantasy.
I think that that feels uncomfortable.
And I think what really solidified it and I'll use this to transition to the
next section is how it becomes a point that marks like, so you kissed her.
He was like, well, you're going to drown me now.
Like, it was just, it was weird.
I don't know why it was, you know, what, between this and low-key apparently
just romances are not my favorite thing,
but, uh, yeah, moving into the next, most important topic.
This one is honesty and protection.
Uh, we can use this section to detail the sequences in which Stephen and mark
are still vying for control, but more through the lens of now having lost
Concho and the revelation that Stephen is embodying honesty and mark is trying
to embody at least attempted protection.
Uh, so Jude, where would you like to start within this section?
These sections
Leech: are rough, but like they make sense, but they're
rough just cause there's.
Jude: No, I think you're right on these topics being difficult.
And I think that's virtue of the episode, because like, we're talking about these
sections and there's things that I want to bring up that I'm also holding
back for the last main important topic
Leech: everything's meshed together.
I think that's where it
Jude: becomes.
Yeah.
And it's, and it's, and it's, and so it's
Trey: like, yeah, I even texted you last night, dude.
I was like, cause normally we try and do four most important topics, but trying
to fit in a fourth one as interwoven as these stories are in this episode
would have felt like it was, you know, spreading it too thin, knowing we've
got a, uh, a hippo in the room that we need to address by the end of this.
Yeah.
Jude: Well, and that was the thing is like in the end thing where
it was like, so was that Layla's ideal, like other personality ideal.
I wish mark had.
I don't know anymore.
Like, cause I mean, at this point we're talking about, and I think rightfully
so as if that's what Layla's seeing and Steven, but when the episode ends.
I have no idea.
Trey: I do want to start here though.
You know, you and leach have kind of hinted at it with the
feeling that Concho is gone.
Uh, the big moment last week, being that he was in case in the statue, uh, I think
you and TJ, Jude were questioning whether or not mark could access those powers.
And we got that confirmation here.
Uh, To me, I love how much they hammered home, his presence being gone.
As they're walking up to the tomb, you get that quick shot of like a Crow or
some sort of bird just perched on the top where conscience normally would be.
They walk a few more steps and you see a goat purse and
kind of like that rock arch.
So they were really trying to remind you that he wasn't there and they were
on their own, uh, date, take it along.
Okay.
You know, I'm sure they could have used the super strength from katsu, but I was
kind of surprised at how willing Steven was able to go into that tomb, you know,
after some prodding here and there.
Jude: Well, it's interesting.
The, the.
The will or the force, maybe you have Steven to like, I mean, Hey, for him,
you get this element of adventure.
Like, and I'm getting to do stuff that I've only imagined at the gift
shop, but there's also an element where he's fighting for his existence.
Like we, we made the deal, country's gone the edge.
I had a problem with that part of the show, but, but
we made a deal countries go.
And so you're going to live up to your T your end of the deal, you know?
And so in that sense, he's fighting for his, him to be the
primary, maybe identity to him.
This is almost over.
Trey: Yeah.
You know, I love how you, you detailed the sense of adventure being the thing
that drives Steven forward, because as lovingly as possible that I could put it.
He's a dork and I love how excited he gets with just being in what he's dreamed of,
of, of his entire time at the gift shop.
But one of the things I think that stood out to me was that moment, right before
they jump into it, uh, we see mark take control and sucker punch Steven leads.
What did you think of seeing mark be able to just take control like that?
Whereas in previous episodes it's been a bit of a chore to be
able to gain that back that had
Leech: big Hoke vibes, harsher.
Oh my goodness.
Very much.
Ragnar rock vibes.
Um, It was, it was coming, like he knew it was coming.
He knew it was worth it.
Trey: He didn't, he didn't.
Leech: Yeah, exactly.
He gambled and he lost.
So
Jude: yeah, I, it was a great moment.
It was funny.
Oh yeah, it was, it was one of those moments that you talked about
where this show does it well, of like pulling something funny, you
know, that it breaks tension or
Trey: whatnot, you know, I'm glad you described it as alluding to the Hulk
because this isn't the first time that that's been brought up on this podcast.
Like that was one of the things I talked about in episode one, where
they kind of show that fake out of like, oh no, Mark's in trouble.
He's being attacked by the Jackal before he transforms, cut to the jackals
now running away from their life.
So there, there does seem to be some sort of hope influence here.
And as much as the show continues to set things up and then pay it off
by diving deeper, you know, we get the taste of mark taking control,
punching himself in the face.
But later on in the episode, when Layla finally confronts mark, technically
Mark Stevens, the one to control, but she asked, can mark hear me right now?
Mark is able to come through, like without any sort of fight from Stephen,
whether or not that Steven, like recognizing the moment and just seeding
control to mark, or if it's just, whenever things get that emotional
Mark's able to take control back.
It was, it was interesting how much more they were giving us all of that dynamic
between who gets to be the driver.
Jude: Well, there's an element where that's, what I was about to say is, is
I don't feel like it broke the rules of the show only because I remember
something that affected when they first switched and Steven was asking, is
this what your life's always been like?
And yeah, it's hard to get used to it.
And then mark said something about.
It'll take all your will to like show up or something like that.
And if you imagine mark has been living like that for the past three months,
he's had the practice of channeling his will to intervene if that makes sense.
And so, like, that's why for me that not only was the punch of funny and
good moment and still felt like it made sense within the rules of what they
established of how that, that interaction
Trey: can work.
Yeah.
It's, it's been slowly building, uh, throughout these
Jude: episodes now.
What, what really bothered me and TJ said it about, and I think he's right.
Steven being the moral compass of the group, it's felt out of character,
especially a Stephen's like going to be honest, like, Hey Rebecca,
you got to know this about mark, you know, and you have all that.
But the idea of like, well, conscious, gone, and you said, you'd go away.
You know, I conscious gone though.
You know, it's not because like, you've accomplished your cache or whatever.
Like he's fully aware that country's has gone and why he's gone.
And so the idea that like now it's like, now he's gone, you
gotta uphold your end of the deal.
Um, that just didn't feel like.
Steven the moral compass to me.
So, so that, that I felt was like a little bit, when I get it, you, you, you need
that to happen to have these moments and to have a reason for Steven to be there.
Cause it, cause otherwise it makes total sense from the other episodes of like,
no, this is mark training type stuff.
Let's switch, you know?
Um, so you, so you need a reason for Steven to say no and to be
there, but it just, it just felt out of character for Steven for me.
Leech: Was it Steven, can you, can you, for sure say it was Steven though.
That's what I want to know.
If it felt that are out of character for you, could you go
back and see if he really thought it was Steven the whole time?
I'm
Jude: talking about how I felt in my first read slash watch of, of how that went.
Um, and talking about that second.
As if I'm talking about that section, trying to ignore
the last third of the show.
Leech: Oh no.
I'm, I mean, I'm referencing last episode where we kind of had
this like, wait that wasn't you.
So I, we, you on, like, it did feel this whole thing was like weird
Brendan Frazier vibes for Steven.
Like it was, it was
Jude: a little different.
The only reason why I would be convinced that it, Steven is, it just
seems having not been introduced yet to that third character or potential
third character that, you know, how, how are we want to put it?
We would be implying that, that, that third identity knows Stephen's
identity well enough to fake it.
And the, the parameters of the deal and all of that.
And it feels like, Hey, if they do that, and like later we come to find
out of like, oh, there's some weird manipulation and you're tricking
both of them to leave the details for you for when you show up, like when
would he have got that information?
From being passed out into the desert to get it.
Why would you this third identity has the memories and knowledge of there.
So, so that's the only reason why I feel comfortable saying it wasn't gotcha.
The potential third identity.
Um, but at this, like I said, at this point,
Trey: let's re we'll re examine this.
Once we get to the final, most important topic, you know, I'll go to bat for.
Uh, it feels in line with the same Steven.
I didn't get to talk about it last week, but it, it made me laugh so
hard in that opening shot where Marcus chasing those people through each oats
and then he blacks out and we come to, and we find out that Steven was trying
to go to the airport and he was just immediately trying to leave the situation.
That feels like a Steven thing to me to just be like, okay, we're done.
Yeah, but you're right, dude.
He's too far in it.
At this point, he knows the stakes that he wouldn't do that.
The other thin defense that I would give is if we are kind of seeing mark
be an admiration of Stephen, being able to tell later, About why he's
been pushing her away because of what concha is doing and recognizing
that he was not able to do that.
Maybe this is Steven trying to do a little bit more of that selfish mark thing, but
ultimately you see, he can't do that.
So he had missed the truth to Layla.
Uh, so it's almost kind of like this.
I don't want to say inverse cause I feel like I go to that well too much,
but we're seeing them branch off into being more than the personality or the
identity they've been described to at this point and seeing how that shoe fits.
Jude: Wait, hold on.
If I understand what you're saying, right.
Basically it's what I think I heard you say is that Steven was trying to
Trey: be marked yes.
More of that.
Like, I don't want to say selfish, but it.
It's clearly like, no, I'm going to, I'm going to take lead.
I'm going to do this.
This is for me kind of okay.
Jude: Okay.
Well that makes sense.
I mean, kind of what we're saying about the same body and different personality
and skillsets, and it's like from Layla's point of view, it's like same body,
but the desire, the interests that I would, that would really wish mark had.
But then also the other way of like, Stephen was like, dude, I wish I
could be able to like mark, you know?
Um, and even though it represents of like mark being like yeah, if I had
Stephen's knowledge and it wasn't just the muscle and that's all I need, I just,
just look and tell me, you know, okay.
Yeah.
I'm with you on that.
That's it.
Trey: Cool.
Okay.
I got worried.
I was like, oh, did I get it whenever it comes to like trying
to audibly detail the points of.
Steven and mark and Layla, I start to get tripped on the words,
but I'm glad that came across.
So eventually we get to the point where Steven and mark
find the tomb of Alexander.
The great, I know for certain I could never be an adventurer because one, I'd
never be able to push the lid off the sarcophagus and to never in a million
years, would I have thought to search down the gullet of Alexander's to
find the, uh, the little stash here?
What did you think of that, that sequence leech?
Leech: Um, I was just thinking the whole time, like, you're going to step on one
of those stepping stones and it's again, and then arrows, or, you know, stuff's
going to shoot out from the walls.
I think I've just watched too many indie Jones, but, uh, I was just,
I was full on histologic motor.
That whole thing.
I was blind.
I was so happy to watch that whole scene.
Like, oh, it's this, you know, this text and stuff.
I'm like, yeah, it is.
Oh yeah.
What?
You read that part too.
Oh yeah.
You're going to point that out.
Yep.
Eating it up.
It was amazing.
I loved every minute, like it was so pandering and I accepted it
Jude: completely.
All the, all the tropes were there.
Oh yeah.
Leech: It was great.
Like if he had like the costume on like that would've made it better.
Like, you know, the full-on like explorers had the matching
cammo body suit thing going on.
I mean like, oh,
Jude: sorry.
I say friend Daniel messaged me while he was watching it.
And he's like, who can draw that?
Who can freehand draw on the sand?
That perfectly Stephen.
Exactly.
Trey: Steve Steven care,
Jude: you know, but it is like that, that style that you mentioned, the
Indiana Jones, those types of things.
Is that it hit all the tropes.
I mean,
Leech: walking in there I'd be like doing like the John Travolta, like
looking around like, like I'd never be like, this is, this is actually
no, there's no way, but I ate it up.
It was amazing.
Trey: Well it's to me, it's so funny as infatuated as Steven is with Layla the
first, maybe not the first moment, but among the first where it starting to be
clear that Layla is also endearing to him.
She thinks he's calling her beautiful, but it's the statue
that he's calling gorgeous.
I believe it is.
And it's so funny to me that like he's in his element so much that
the rest of the world fades away.
And the, the reason that I wrote Stephen's a dork is in that final sequence,
whenever he finally gets to the statue and Layla walks in, we know how much
she has just gone through with the revelation of her father as Stephen,
just like pokes his head up from this Acarbose and it just raises his hand
in the air and he's like, found it.
And he's like, no winter goes to us.
And he's just like, he's
Jude: adorable, man.
Leech: He was like, this is, we go down this hallway.
Right.
And then we get chased by the giant Boulder.
Is that, is that this hallway, like, I felt like that was coming up
Jude: next
Trey: well, and I love, he had the, uh, he's like, look, there's
a lot of blood and bones that way.
Why don't we try and find an alternate route out of this?
Leech: Yeah.
I'm seeing some like health potions around here too.
That means I was going to be a boss, the corridor.
Trey: I'm so glad you said that because whenever he pulls the statue
out of the mummy, the music is timed.
So perfectly, I swear to you, it sounds like the Zelda theme.
Whenever you find a chest, go back and listen to it.
It's that same time.
Oh,
Jude: that's amazing.
So there's a, and I'll have to send it to both of y'all and.
Th there's a meme, I guess, that, that I found where it's like shows
this sidewalk or know that it's, uh, it's on the sidewalk, but it
has like this brick retaining wall.
And there's a portion of it.
That's a different style of brick for like about the size of it.
You know, then it says like I've played enough video games to know
that there's something on the other side and that's, that's exactly
what this whole sequence or that.
Oh yeah.
Trey: So
Jude: the only thing that was missing was the switch of like somebody putting
something else in the gullets please
just a quick, like,
Trey: nah, as disgusting as that was the idea of trying to rapidly
push something else back down and Gullah is very uncomfortable.
Oh man.
Jude: And you know, when the writing was, they thought of that
Trey: maybe, maybe we'll get some deleted scenes whenever the assembled documentary.
So leech there, we've talked about it a little bit, but there's a moment
where as Layla goes in for the kiss to Stephen, Stephen blurts out the
truth of why mark has been pushing her away, where did you think that was the
right move for Steven in that moment?
I
Leech: think it's a lot easier to tell someone something that they should know
when you have nothing, you know, it doesn't really affect you all that much.
So I feel like it, it might've been an inappropriate time for sure, but
I feel like it was very easy for him to say it and just get it out there.
It's like, oh, this isn't that hard.
You know, I have no emotional connection to it.
Like, let's just get this done.
Like, by the way, like before anything else continues, blah.
So I thought that was like, For the story.
It was, you know, I needed to get out there, but also, you know, you have
nothing to lose saying it, it just needed to get said, oh, you don't want it.
You're afraid of her knowing.
And you know, oh, like what if, what if, oh, she knows now we're good.
Jude: I don't know if I agree with you on there's nothing for
Steven to lose because in what we talked about, it's the same body.
So like you run into that problem of like, like identity wise, it wasn't Steven.
Physically though you were, the body was there, it, it, you participated,
you, did you, you know what I mean?
And so it makes me wonder like, like, can you have that level of separation?
Leech: I mean, he was pretty pissed off at him.
He say, you know, if I need a protein smoothie recipe, I'll hit you up.
Like he, yeah.
And maybe it was out of spite.
I don't know.
Jude: But I mean, for Layla though, like to, to have that separation
of like, oh, I'm dealing with,
Leech: oh yeah, just that full on bright, like the words coming out
of his mouth that that happened.
So, I mean, like for her, it's like, dude, what
Trey: she handles it very well because you have that moment.
You have the moment where.
Steven genuinely, at least to the identity of Stephen openly
expresses sentiments to her.
I'm sorry, your, you lost your father and she takes it sincerely.
And then she has the moment where it finally breaks after she learns the truth.
There was like enough, I want to talk to mark.
So it's like, Three, two to three instances that have happening and then
it finally breaks at, towards the end.
But it is weird.
I don't know if culpability is the right word, but yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
It's tough to say.
Um, cause you get into that weird mind body.
Yeah,
Leech: I think it was a net net instance of their interaction.
It was appropriate to just clear the air.
Like I get why that would happen.
But I think that whole thing was like inappropriate for
what they were trying to do.
Like they needed to get down there.
Like, can we grab some more flares?
Let's go like, let's, let's do this.
Trey: That's not the time.
Well, unless there's anything more in this section, I think we can get to
the one we've really been waiting for.
I mean, the
Jude: one that makes this the first hour of this spike, so relevant,
Trey: the one that makes me so glad that leaches on this episode,
because this last third is built for leech and Litas rabbit hole.
My gosh.
So with that being said, we're going to transition into the final important topic,
which is the nucleus of our personality.
Like I said, we're going to detail the entirety of that final sequence, where
we discover what we think we know may in fact, be Justin Mark's head June.
We'll go ahead and start with you.
Cause we did a bit of a swap because I think this is the section you
needed to get out on the table.
Jude: Okay.
So I was trying to take the other sections at like the same way
we're doing the other episodes.
Like I'm just going to ma like take the end out of my mind.
But at this point, it's like, well, is the Layla we saw actually having the
feelings and reactions that we think she did or was that March projection?
I guess mark is the identity prime.
The original now is that, is that what's established.
Um, I love that that showed the old movie.
'cause it, like you said, it hit all the tropes, Indiana Jones, you know?
And I was like, oh my gosh, Alan Quartermaine.
And I think it was one of them and the Juul of denial and romancing the stone and
like all of that, John rhe of that style of, of movie, he was just right there.
You know, I felt like there was redemption for Donna because she had a lot of
flagging after episode one, the actresses, I was like, why are you so mean to Steven?
You know?
And then now she could say, it was like, well, you know, I'm playing it.
Like we've known each other for such a long time.
And it's like, no, they're in a mental hospital and he's
painting the plot and go away.
Like I, yeah.
So like it's.
I dunno, like this is the definition that I always go back to an interview.
I saw with the creators and writers of the CW arrow show and they were in,
I remember, I don't remember where I saw it, but I remember them talking
about like, when I'm writing an ending that, that a hero has to get out of.
If it takes us less than a week to figure out how to get out of
it, the audience will figure it out and it's not a good ending.
And, and I'm just imagining them going through that process of like, yeah, let's,
let's see how to get out of this one.
You know, it had to explain this away and I'm stumped.
Trey: I'm going to come to leach here in a second, but I want to
on the record just clearly stated.
Are you taking this end as confirmation that all of this is in the mental
hospital and inside Mark's head?
I have no idea.
No idea.
Okay.
Jude: Because he got shot.
And so
Trey: it was justification for Donna.
So I don't know.
I was just going to see if you were like 100% in the camp that
this is all in Mark's head.
I don't know.
Okay.
Leech, I don't know.
Where do you fall?
Okay.
Leech: On this 42 slide presentation here, you will see.
Um, so timeline wise, this is after he got shot.
So that just anchors that there for me.
I am still very confused about Stephen's timeline because he's had his job
long enough to piss off his boss enough and piss off everyone around
him enough and apparently have enough of a googly-eyed relationship with
someone to get a date out of them.
Like, is that really three months?
Is that longer?
That's super muddy.
But I do like the idea that, you know, Mark's the dominant one because everything
points to that, but they're both there.
I, I don't know.
We're just getting.
Perspective.
It's not that I don't know.
I want to think he's dominant, but we're just on the merch prospective right now.
Right.
Is that just to get more mark or say, cause he's, you know, the prime,
Jude: well, first it's always good to have more Oscar Isaac.
Trey: Yeah.
You
Jude: can never go wrong.
Yeah.
But that's what I'm saying.
Like he was shot.
So is this kind of like in his head and how the mark Steven brain is in
the waning moments between death and life dealing with did, is it limbo or
is it him coming out of a psychosis?
Like I, I just, I don't know.
I wonder.
Leech: If like how avatars die and if they do die, because I'm really, I'm,
I'm leaning towards, this is either all, not all of it's in his head, but
like his mind's being rated right now.
And this is how his mind is, I guess, shown to us and like how his mind works,
because he thinks he's crazy all the time.
And maybe this is, you know, how he displays that.
I don't know this one really.
I'm still trying to digest it really I've seen it twice.
And I just, I don't know.
Jude: Yeah.
And it had everything, it had the gold statue guy, it had the cane,
the glass, like it had everything.
And it just like all the references.
Trey: Oh, I remind note taking section I gave up on this important topic.
What I did is I just started a bullet point and wrote down every
reference I saw and I got up to 17 and I doubt that's even like half of
it to 17 different instances of them referring to the previous episodes.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Leech: This is like, I'm so sorry.
I just thought what if this is like conscious, like weird limbo
layer for all of his past avatar?
And because he's gone, that's why it's not the head table anymore.
And someone else is taking that seat and using that leverage to manipulate
Steven and mark it's like his wing of the, his re the realm or whatnot.
Like, you know, cause the drawing, the drawing sticks out to me.
I don't know what it is.
The sketch of Concho.
That's just the
Trey: hummingbird slash conscious you head.
Yeah.
Jude: And it would make sense why Arthur's their former avatar?
Trey: Yep.
There was a part of me that was feeling.
And I couldn't find the angle cause it doesn't sound like
Arthur wants constitute back.
Uh, even if he, this was some sort of ploy to get contrary away from mark and
Steven, we know that the, the he's just the avatar and the avatar is missing
country because he's been in the statue.
But there was something that stood out to me in the ways that they really
focused in on Arthur saying I can't help someone who doesn't want to be saved.
And the echoing of those two statements make me feel like this was a ploy of his
by trying to get him to break somehow.
Cause that's another wording that we've seen HARO use a four where he's like,
oh, is it because you're easy to break?
It makes me feel like this is something constructed because
somebody wants something from mark and Stephen, like you said,
Leech: if he's broken as an avatar, then who does he go to next?
If Layla, if Layla, you know, finally laughter he's figured out
and there's no one for him to go to.
What do you go to a previous avatar?
Or is there anyone else in light?
Like, I'm wondering if this is like a way to like mentally get
him out of the game for Concho.
So Contra can't come back.
Even if they can somehow get the statue.
Jude: Look, I'm going to say it.
I would have everybody in there including HARO is a different
personality or identity.
Trey: Yeah, that definitely, uh, across my mind, it's, it's, there's so many
ways to go with it, you know, as long we start throwing out theories, you
know what else I thought it could have possibly been right before
Steven pushes this a COVID has open.
He's like, oh, everything is telling me not to open this.
And Mark's like, just do it.
I wonder if there was something, some sort of like tying into the
supernatural side of like mummies and everything they're exploring here.
If maybe it's just some sort of.
And this is like the, the presentation of that curse taking form of in mark
and Stevens has, as they're trying to write what is happening, because
even within the revelation of the mental hospitals scenario, mark is
like dazed and confused as though he's just been injected with something.
So I'm wondering if that's the case where it's less to do with did and
being shot and more just to do with the hallucinations of whatever they uncovered
when they opened the sarcophagus.
And that's going full on in early two thousands adventure trips,
Leech: and then this score be in Q
Jude: rises.
Leech: Totally was and he killed it.
It was so it was so perfect.
It was just the right time in history for that to happen.
It was so cringey looking
Jude: back, all I know are the trailers
I'm a
Leech: with, I think it could be any theory at this point.
Like we don't, this show has kept us in the dark on so much.
What also somehow keeping a story going along without us just getting
purely frustrated time constraints, probably have a factor in why.
Moving so fast, but I feel so uncomfortable not knowing anything
Jude: more.
Well, there's an element of that.
I was wondering how they pulled it off.
Like, did they, you know, you hear about, okay, you kind of write with
the end in mind, I'm always wondering, like, did they write this scene and
what we haven't seen yet first and then, and even shot it and then found a way.
From the beginning on, in order to, to place all the different actors and
egg Easter eggs, you know what I mean?
Like, like kind of reverse engineer backwards.
Yeah.
Just put it in reverse, you know, because I'm imagining like, as, as a script
writer and stuff, how do you, there's an element of, of planning out, but
like, they're so intentional, you know, it's not of like this person, you're
going to see more than once and it's going to be an interaction to where
it's going to stick with the audience.
So that way, when you see it really quickly, It's going to trigger
that, that memory, you know?
And so it's not like a random grab.
It was so well planned out.
Trey: Yeah.
This definitely feels like one of those inspired set pieces that, cause there was
an interview that I'll try and link to.
Again, we linked it in the first episode where Mohammed DIA talked
about, he was so prepared for this.
I think he mentioned having something in mind that he pitched.
And so I could see this being the, the, the idea and everything else
was filling in to make sure that idea worked because it is so thorough.
It is so like every shot, there is something to refer back to the previous
three episodes, which by the way, I did put this in my pre spoiler thought.
I w we talked about how other critics got the first four episodes
of this show before it aired.
I can't imagine what the weight has been like for them.
To have that in and then be like, all right, I got to wait for a month to get
resolution like that would drive me crazy.
Leech: Watching it all back to back to back like, oh my gosh,
I couldn't, I couldn't even, I
Jude: can't remember.
Now if today it was coworker and friend, Ken or friend in shop, dog and cohost.
Second time person, TJ, and it get all the, now
Trey: you're just rubbing it
Jude: into the prefixes him.
I don't remember which one said it, but they mentioned, as I mentioned
how I said at the beginning, This would have been a really cool season
finale and give us a season two.
Then one of them mentioned about your preschooler thought if the idea of
like, well, dude, just imagine having those four episodes and having to
wait, but now having a whole year plus to wait for that climate Clippinger
um, that would have been crazy.
Trey: I don't think I could have handled it.
Not
Jude: that I know.
I would've done it though.
Trey: I have another theory about what's going on here and I want to see
if it holds water for anybody else.
There is another section where Layla.
Comes in and she won the bingo and she's like, we won, we won and
she starts to run off and then she comes back and she goes, I promise,
I'll share it with you this time.
I'm this is a very far limb.
But again, if this is the thoughts of a dying person, who's just been
shot and is contextualizing the world around them within this world, that
makes sense of the mental hospital.
I wonder if we'll find out that Laila somehow in those final moments,
whether she's always had it or found it in that final sequence became
an avatar for another Egyptian God.
And that is what that hippo is towards the end coming into save them.
But it's just, we're seeing it from Mark's perspective, but in the real world, we're
seeing that Layla's actually imbued with powers now to help them out of that seat.
So, you know
Jude: what I, I'm going to say.
You have, you have something.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, the
Trey: hangup, my hangup being the statue that is found is of Ahmed,
the God, or did he got, I'm not entirely sure at the end is a hippo.
We've already established that the Ahmed is the, the alligator lady with the head.
So I don't know where Layla would have found another statute lying around.
Other than that I have I've, that's where I want to start building my
grains of sand is on Layla coming into the real world with new avatar powers.
Jude: Well, and, and I mean, one of the things TJ brought up on
the last pod and, and we kind of discussed was, and this is before
knowing what the end of this episode.
Layla was clearly familiar with that world.
And it wouldn't conscious you would wanted her as an avatar and found her
as an avatar or her possibility of being an avatar attractive for reason.
So in that sense, I don't think it's far off to say that she ends
up being an avatar somehow in this, in this, and that was what was
Trey: happening.
What do you think lead to my, uh, my building a sturdy sandcastle here?
Leech: Well, it kind of has me wondering now that if this is like
a weird avatar limbo area, maybe there's been someone else in Laila this
whole time and that's actually Layla.
Trey: Oh, wow.
Like even, even hidden to her as well.
Leech: Yeah.
Like Layla's been like stuck in this limbo and she's obviously lost it and
may, Ooh, maybe this is where they go.
Uh, when they're not.
I don't know
Trey: both the identities of mark and the Egyptian gods since they
need the, the avatars to be able to communicate with in the world.
Leech: Yeah.
So that's like your standby
Trey: limbo standby for the real world.
Leech: I, yeah, I kinda, I didn't really think about the Layla
angle of like she's right there.
Like they have a full on interaction with bingo and stuff.
Like I just grazed by that it was really focused on the whole
mark and Steven thing, but.
There's there's something
Trey: there.
We get doxed with so much information and I don't blame you
Jude: well, and I wonder, I mean, as, as well thought out as this has been,
there has to be something significant.
I think about bingo and the letters called and the number's called there is a wrong
Leech: letter called too.
It was like a T or a J or something.
Right.
Trey: I think for sure.
. I think I didn't write it down, but, um, no, I just had a thought, uh,
back to what you were saying, leech of the possibility of this being the
limbo of either the did personalities or the Egyptian gods themselves.
It when, whenever Marcus shot and he falls backward in the water, two things,
one, you see that he fell and you can see the bottom of the water as he's
laying on the, the, not the concrete, but just the, the floor of the two.
And then the next shot we have is him falling through.
So the, obviously the floor has gone.
I just start to, to insinuate, okay, this is all in his head, but as he falls and
he gets further away from the camera, he starts to look more and more like one of
those statutes that they get in tuned in.
I'm wondering if this is your right leech, that this is the, the, the limbo.
And maybe this is somehow a process of Arthur trying to encapsulate
mark and Stephen in a statue so that he traps them and out of the way.
So I'm, I'm getting off my Layla's and avatar and kind of getting
next to you on your limb here.
Jude: Well, I'm going to back you up on the.
Well, I mean, cause, cause at the very beginning, you know, you show, they showed
where the stone ceramic, whatever country was and led us to believe that there's
more than just conscious you there.
Right.
And you're talking about the very
Trey: beginning, not a Cyrus, one of the Egyptian gods as
he's putting the statue away.
Right?
Jude: Yeah.
But like it made us still believe there's more other guts, right?
With that in mind.
What if, what HARO was doing?
What if all night, what if, what horror was doing and sucking out the life
soul or whatever was encapsulating them and they didn't really die.
They're just waiting to be freed.
Oh.
Trey: That's a lot of stacks.
I'm assuming the times that we've seen horo do that is not,
not exclusive to the episodes.
I can't imagine how much of a waiting room they've got going on.
Jude: Yeah, he has a nice little collection there probably play
a full game of chess with him.
Leech: Did anyone else stick out?
I feel like they focused on a lot of faces in there too.
Where any of them from the trial, I guess, is what that would be called and from CDC.
Jude: Yeah.
That's like
that.
I don't know.
I recognized a lot of, uh, museum people, the two police officers, DC people.
So, so I recognize a lot of them, but I didn't catch if it was any of the avatars.
Trey: I did see the gold statue, man, which you already talked about.
I'm 80% sure.
I saw the old woman and the elevator from the first episode.
Um, I don't think I saw any of the gods, the avatars for the gods, but I'm
trying to think of anybody else stuck out to me that way and off the top of my
Jude: head.
No.
Yeah.
I don't think so.
I I'd have to really like pause.
Look through it.
For
Trey: all the confusion we have.
One of the solidifying things we do have is we see both Steven and
mark actually physically present.
How did you feel about seeing the meat leech?
Leech: Oh, it felt like such a relief.
Just relief in the air of like, oh, thank God.
I'm not crazy.
I'm also crazy.
Cause we're both here.
So that was, that was wild to see the movie obsessed person in me.
It was like, okay, how are they going to pull this off?
Like, let me see that stunt double kind of thing.
Like, let me see like the heritable and everything.
And it was very well done.
I will say from that, you know, outside point of view, like they
did a, such a good job on that.
That was Steven and mark that wasn't, you know, oh, that's mark.
Stunt double and I'm totally lost immersion.
Like they did a really good job on that.
And it was such a relief to have a friend help figure out
what the heck is happening.
Trey: Yeah.
I, I really appreciated the sense of comfort they have when they embrace
like, oh my God, how is this possible?
I don't know, but you're here kind of thing.
Like, and I think the contrast of that to them seeing the third sarcophagus,
a red circle and playing violence, uh, and they just kind of pass
through without even investigating it.
Like, I think even some consciously they know to avoid that section.
And it just created that, that horrifying feeling to me, it
almost reminded me, is it Jude?
I think you, well, I think both of you in, in leach will know this is it.
Batman begins where somebody is freeing a bunch of the Arkham inmates and they pass
by one in particular and then they leave.
I'm reaching for Batman.
There's a perfect example.
The MCU, the,
Jude: uh,
Leech: Loki, uh, on,
Trey: in Asgard.
Yeah, they do that in dark world too.
There was a Batman one, but I think the dark world, one's probably
a better fit for this podcast.
Jude: Yeah.
But I mean, but I know what you're talking about is Batman begins where
at the end, where they're freeing the
Trey: people.
Yeah.
They hover on one and they just leave it . So that's what it, that's what it
felt like to me see that sarcophagus in the room and they just got to ignore it.
Jude: I think there, I don't know where we're at because again,
speculation, but I feel like that that's going to be another identity.
Let out.
Um, and the, one of the ways they pulled that off so well was you
had an Oscar Isaac in the room.
And the other one, I believe was Michael Benjamin Hernandez,
who is Oscar Isaac's brother.
No,
Leech: that makes sense.
That man has like the most recognizable hairline of like it's.
I just there's no other way.
Other than blood that can duplicate
Trey: that.
How lucky that they were able to get a brother of similar statutes, right.
Leech: The insurance policy on those two, my goodness.
Trey: I don't want to say we're coming to an end.
Cause like you said, dude, we could spend the rest of the night here, but
unless we have any more, we might be able to move to listeners first takes.
Jude: Yeah, I think we should.
Cause like I, I, at this point, like it's, it's I,
Trey: who knows I'll I'll check with you.
Leech: How are we just not going to address the very end at all
Jude: the hippo?
Yeah.
Oh, I thought it wasn't mentioned,
Leech: I mean, it was mentioned,
Jude: but like, I don't know what to make of the hippo.
Leech: Like I think that throws all the theories
Jude: for a loop.
Like what am I?
One of my students looked it up and I, and so I'm kind of ignoring it, but, but
also can I say it's going, gonna kind of say, and they looked it up, I think
Trey: is going to remove.
And then you can say, okay, I'll get, hold on, put them back.
I'll give you thumbs up.
Jude: I got rid of the headphones.
I'll give you the thumbs up.
Um, so, so they looked up and all that, but all it was, I don't think
it gives anything else, but it was like, it was like, like you said,
with Ahmet in the, the alligator.
Right.
And in there it was just like, oh, a hippo is the Egyptian God of this.
And I won't say what this is.
Okay.
How about that?
But like, well, it was like, you didn't really tell me much cause out,
cause it's like, well, thematically, it's the Egyptian and it's another
God and stuff that I don't know the relation between, you know?
Trey: So that's the thing.
Oh, I'll add this and bring back in, there was something
about it that signaled friendly.
So you get this feeling of like again company.
Yeah.
There's not, yeah.
Yeah.
She's not looking at the camera.
Leech: I just realized I've had my headphones on backwards this whole time.
Trey: That's really why we discuss this headphone shit.
Jude: Traded.
Say one thing that I won't tell you, he did say he got the feeling that,
that the indication for as quickly as it was, this hippo was friendly.
Leech: I mean, it started out with high versus like a slap in the face.
So like the way we've been going late, no creepy fingers
coming through the woodwork.
So I'm, I'm relieved
Jude: beggars.
Trey: Can't be choosers on that part.
Yeah.
Leech: Like, you know, you're either an ally or an enemy at that
point, like in that situation.
So fair,
Jude: fair.
Leech: Uh, hippos are terrifying though.
They are super off track, but like, oh my God, have you seen like the water?
They throw the watermelon on them.
It's just like half a bite and it's good.
Jude: Don't mess with it.
You
Trey: just don't, don't tug on Superman's Cape until mess with him.
Wow.
You really hate Zack Snyder.
Uh, you know, the, the bizarreness of like my priest boiler thought of like, not
knowing what to say it is, is the hippo.
Like every time I thought I had an angle on where we were going, I
just keep coming back to the hippo.
Like, what am I supposed to read at this point?
And of course we'll, we'll find out more eventually, but man, what
a, what a way to throw us at the.
Oh, I was
Leech: digging too that whole time.
I mean, you know, you know, I was like just trying to like poke holes in that
thing and like get theories and just every five seconds I was invalidated
just watching that last 10 minutes.
So who knows?
I hope it's like just pieces of all of our stuff and it makes sense.
And I know it
Trey: will just like a collection of everything we've thrown out today might
Leech: be.
And plus some stuff we never even thought of.
Cause we just don't know.
We just don't.
We have nothing, nothing to go off of.
This is all such new territory.
Yeah.
Trey: You know, I, I talked about in episode one, so much of the
talk going into this season was this is standalone from the MCU.
There's more connections in this show versus this one.
Like we've made it four episodes and there's no overarching connection.
I wonder if that was intentional to throw us off once we got here
so that we couldn't clearly say, oh yeah, that's the real world,
because obviously they referenced the snap or they referenced iron.
Yeah.
So I wonder if we're going to start to see that change now that
we're past this point, but it's,
Jude: it's a limited series.
It's probably just group sessions from here on out.
Leech: If it starts with the group session.
Oh,
Trey: yeah.
Well, I think we're going to have to put a pin on this until next week, so let's go
ahead and move into listeners first takes.
So we did reach out on social media to see what everybody else thought
of this episode, and it feels very appropriate to start with this one.
This one comes in from the slushie on Twitter and it reads that
ending though with a bunch of exclamation marks and question marks.
I think, uh, I think she summarized it perfectly.
Uh,
Jude: me one of these days, I'll figure it out.
Okay, sorry.
Okay, here we go.
You ready?
Leech: You spelled Twitter wrong on that.
And I'm just done like a
Trey: slushie.
Oh, I missed a T.
Jude: Yeah,
Leech: just ruined the whole
Jude: episode.
Start over.
Um, kin on Twitter with two T's.
Uh, I think Spider-Man says it all for me.
And he put a gift.
I'm a Spiderman from far from home and the WTF moment as his identity
is revealed by J Jonah, Jameson.
Uh, you know what that's um, I mean, as I say, you know, coworker, Shawn texted
me just as we're starting to record.
And he said something very similar.
He's like, now it's become the mind twister.
I was hoping.
You know, and I think all day, anybody I talked to you that seems
as represented was just like, what is
Trey: this?
Yeah.
Oh, I forgot to ask leech.
Are you comfortable reading the next
Leech: one?
Yeah, that's fine.
I was like trying to see if you are going to ask just cause I didn't know
if I was going to jump in or not and
Trey: I got it.
This is the problem with being so comfortable with you here.
I forget you're not regular.
Like
Leech: I knew that that was what you were waiting on, but like you hadn't.
So we were both stuck in
Jude: that like,
Trey: well, the floor is all yours.
Leech: Okay.
Love.
Okay.
So then we have here friend Daniel on Twitter.
Loved it.
Blends horror, adventure in psychological thriller with a wacky humor.
That's fresh,
Trey: not too fresh though.
Cause those corpses looked like they were rotting.
Jude: Yeah.
Well it, it, it is, it is, it is very fresh.
I think, you know, there's reminiscence of a wander vision.
Um, but even this from the beginning of one division,
usually something was up right.
And just, what was it?
Whereas here they did it.
They sucked you in, you know, and then it will then pull the rug out.
Leech: Well, you already thought all this psychological stuff, like we had already
kind of established that and we're moving forward and getting to the conclusion.
No.
Jude: Yup.
You're wrong?
Yeah.
That's what that episode says.
Yeah.
It's it's
Trey: crazy.
Uh, finally, this last one comes in from Ben Dutton, Maddie, over on
Instagram and it reads, I was going to say how much I loved episode four.
But now I'm thinking is WTF.
I love that three out of the four first takes.
We have all essentially WTF.
Jude: So can I add what TJ texted me?
Yeah.
Go for it.
So he texted me last night, like 9 48 dude.
And I texted him back to
the nearest one.
And he's like, what in the world just happened?
He's like the only thing I said that was correct so far was that
the show feels unpredictable and all over the place was like, yeah,
that's pretty much what would happen.
Oh,
Trey: Well, of course, those were listeners first take.
So thank you all that reached out and let us know what you thought.
Uh, if you want to partake in that for future episodes, of course, you can
always follow us on social media, but we are trying something new this season.
So if you want to audibly leave your thoughts, you can always hit
the phone number (512) 893-1355.
So yeah, so with first takes out of the way, that's going
to bring us to final thoughts.
So we're changing this up a little bit this season, uh, it's a bit of a, uh,
a combination of straight thoughts.
Predictions are something to consider going into next week.
Uh, you don't necessarily have to do all three of them, but leech, do you
have any final thoughts for the seven.
Leech: I feel like I have more lingering questions and final thoughts, because I
don't know what to think at this point.
Trey: What about you
Jude: June?
I feel the same way.
Cause like making prediction, I felt like this whole last section was like, oh,
these kinds of predictions, something.
I will say that something to consider, I expected this week
for us to get that third identity.
And I feel like since we didn't, I think they're going to spend
an episode bearing as deeper into the mind-bending what's going on.
That's going to have to be untangled in the final finale.
And I, in other words, like I can't like, that's just your typical thing,
so it's not a big stretch, but it's, it's like, like I feel like it's going
to be a double down if that makes sense.
Oh, and on, on confusion of what's actually
Leech: real, we're going through like the Steven experience.
Oh, wow.
What's
Trey: happening.
We have to go deeper before we get any sort of clarity.
I think, you know, for me something to consider going into next week as much
talk as there's been about this being a limited run, we've essentially only.
To moon night scenes, moon scenes of him in the suit.
I'm really expecting a uptick.
And the amount of time we see in that suit and that can
Leech: be, and get that book of Boba Fett ending for the season with mood
Trey: night.
How dare you?
Jude: Yeah.
Watch the next episode.
Be like an intro episode.
Does she hold,
Trey: we're done with Moonlight now.
She hooks our best friend.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Like this next episode is gonna be like an intro to she hold or it's
like an extended in tag of Shawn.
She, you know,
Trey: oh man.
So yeah, that's what I I'm considering going into next week.
We really feel like we're going to see more of the moon night
superhero, uh, in this next episode.
And I think it's going to be.
Even in the absence of country,
Jude: in
Trey: the absence of country.
Yeah.
I think we're going to find some way where he's able to tap into that power
without consciously being around, or at least conscious of being in the
statue because we see Hearos able to tap into some power with Ahmet being
an encased in the statute as well.
Jude: Okay.
Cause my only thing is, is everything we've seen HARO do has been
prior to the end of the episode.
And it could be the case that mark is just running around in a suit.
And there's no real, like super power thing.
That's
Leech: so he's the gold man.
Jude: Well, well, like, I mean, I mean, comic wise and, and we, we, we
generally try to stay away from comic knowledge, uh, just for spoiler reasons.
You know, he wa he was Moonlight was compared a lot to, to Batman.
Gotcha.
And, and, you know, in a sense of like the pinning of what run you're looking at, as
I understand it, is it a power superpower, or is it a guy running around in a suit
the way Batman runs a lot in the suit?
And so, like, in that sense, if, if that's what we ended up finding
out, you see more of the suit.
And the reason why conscious not involved is because it was just him in the suit.
Um, so I'm curious to see which way this is going
Trey: to go and cool.
Definitely something to consider for next week.
Well, I think this is going to do it, Lisa, thank you so much
for joining us on this episode.
Like I said earlier, this felt like it was perfect for you to come in.
We schedule these guests bus without knowing what episodes are going to be.
What, but I'm so glad this was the one you got to join in on.
Leech: I, I almost texted you right after and was just like, of course,
it's this episode that I decided to wait until this moment to say that,
because it was just too perfect.
Like you, like you knew he really did get those four
Trey: episodes.
Huh?
Kind of if I get super fan
Jude: that's right.
That's right.
You know what out of respect for us, we actually didn't get the
episodes, but he texted us and he's like, oh, you should get leech.
Trey: We don't want to say, but we're saying
Leech: you got to like sync all the promos.
I totally understand.
Trey: Yeah.
Well, yeah, if you want to keep up with leach and what they do, make sure you're
following them@xoletoontwitterandtwitch.tv slash XO . As for this show, if
you want to keep in touch with us, you can find us at MC you need
to know on Twitter and Instagram.
It's a great place to connect with us, uh, and hear our thoughts on the episode
before the episode drops on Monday.
Um, as well as getting in on shaping the show, we put out polls
to vote on what should be your title, uh, and a lot of fun stuff.
Jude: And of course, scroll down to the bottom of the show notes.
You'll find all the various links we've mentioned throughout this episode.
You'll find the phone number to leave us a voicemail and have your voice heard.
Uh, if you do call in, please make sure to leave.
Uh, the name you want mentioned.
Is it the discord name and Twitter handle and Instagram handle?
Um, you know, if you need a prefix ahead of, you know, they're like friend Daniel
or, you know, coworker, Shawn, or friend Sean, and all of that, please let us know.
Um, and of course jump the discord to talk with all of us in the MCU related things.
Um, am I leaving anything out yet?
I am share with a friend.
Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandi for the use of our theme song, which
is his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You can find more of his work on the SoundCloud, which is
linked in the show notes as well.
That's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening.
Uh, Legion, Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this as well.
Thank you tray.
Thank you.
We'll see you all next week.
Boom.
That's an episode, dude.
I love, love, love that you talked about the different monikers.
And the reason that is brought up is because of TJ who still didn't
get a moniker in that speech.
So leach last week, TJ was upset that everybody else gets friend Daniel,
coworker, Daniel, family, Daniel.
And we only refer to him as TJ
Leech: I'll join the club dude, like, jeez.
Jude: It's like, why can't we all be friends in the pod?
Trey: It's because we know too many Daniels and too many shots.
That is
Leech: really weird.
Actually.
You do know a
Trey: lot.
I know,
Jude: I think they're
Trey: made up and then the first time we had, Hey, don't do that to me.
The first time we had Rob Logan on, we had another one of Jude's
friends who was also named as rock
Jude: Rob.
Yeah.
For that, for the Simpsons.
Uh,
Trey: low-key special.
Of course it was the same week.
We put out that,
Jude: oh gosh.