1 00:00:11,877 --> 00:00:13,132 Welcome to Wake Up. 2 00:00:13,132 --> 00:00:13,672 Excited. 3 00:00:14,032 --> 00:00:16,492 In this episode, I talk with Aaron Walter. 4 00:00:17,002 --> 00:00:21,752 Aaron is the co-host of the Design Better and Reconsidering podcasts, 5 00:00:22,117 --> 00:00:25,687 the author has several design books, including my favorite, Designing 6 00:00:25,687 --> 00:00:30,517 For Emotion, and he's a writer, a consultant, and a creative leader. 7 00:00:31,177 --> 00:00:35,497 Aaron and I go way back and I have him to thank for inviting me to give my very 8 00:00:35,497 --> 00:00:41,047 first company consulting workshop back when he was the UX director at MailChimp. 9 00:00:41,677 --> 00:00:43,717 I hold Aaron in such high regard. 10 00:00:43,767 --> 00:00:48,027 I really feel that Aaron embodies the best attributes a designer can have. 11 00:00:48,027 --> 00:00:52,287 He's thoughtful, he's nuanced and empathetic, and I think that that really 12 00:00:52,287 --> 00:00:53,847 shines through in our conversation. 13 00:00:54,357 --> 00:00:57,417 We discussed the never ending process of self-improvement, 14 00:00:57,777 --> 00:00:59,577 the importance of curiosity. 15 00:00:59,952 --> 00:01:05,242 How all research is really me search, this concept of super activities, which 16 00:01:05,242 --> 00:01:07,792 I have totally adopted in my lexicon. 17 00:01:08,152 --> 00:01:12,532 We talk about fire and how to think about money, and we discuss a whole 18 00:01:12,532 --> 00:01:16,972 bunch more around living and examined life and trying to be a good person. 19 00:01:17,265 --> 00:01:21,015 Before we dive in, I wanted to say that Wake up excited is a passion 20 00:01:21,015 --> 00:01:23,300 project and is totally self-funded. 21 00:01:23,905 --> 00:01:27,265 Since Aaron worked at MailChimp, and if you've ever listened to a 22 00:01:27,265 --> 00:01:31,435 podcast, you've almost certainly heard a commercial for MailChimp. 23 00:01:31,825 --> 00:01:34,975 I like to think that I'm my own MailChimp for this. 24 00:01:35,305 --> 00:01:40,165 So I have online courses to help designers and developers and product 25 00:01:40,165 --> 00:01:44,590 teams, people making digital things level up and we have courses about 26 00:01:44,590 --> 00:01:48,760 design tokens and design systems and a whole lot more in the pipeline. 27 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:55,030 So if you want to support me, support the show and learn some stuff along the way, 28 00:01:55,330 --> 00:02:01,490 I'd really love it if you checked out our online courses bradfrost.com/courses. 29 00:02:02,020 --> 00:02:05,620 Now, without further ado, here's my conversation with Aaron Walter. 30 00:02:05,935 --> 00:02:08,415 Brad Frost: What did you wake up this morning excited about? 31 00:02:09,183 --> 00:02:13,304 Aarron Walter: I am excited about, turning the dials on my life. 32 00:02:13,544 --> 00:02:19,724 Uh, which I think is the core of our, our discussion today, but am in uh, a passage 33 00:02:19,724 --> 00:02:22,454 of my life where I'm really reflective 34 00:02:24,584 --> 00:02:29,740 what, what a better version of Aaron Walter looks like, intellectually. 35 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:35,750 emotionally, spiritually, uh, which sounds very, you know, woo woo, but like 36 00:02:35,750 --> 00:02:38,090 what, what puts energy in my battery? 37 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,900 What makes me satisfied with life? 38 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,290 Happy is not a word that I, I normally navigate towards 39 00:02:44,290 --> 00:02:45,820 because it's so ephemeral, but, 40 00:02:45,842 --> 00:02:46,192 Brad Frost: Yes. 41 00:02:46,327 --> 00:03:06,596 I'm going to give you a couple of minutes to think about it, 42 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:14,392 and then we'll get started. 43 00:03:15,250 --> 00:03:18,100 Aarron Walter: and we have complimentary skills, the work that we're doing 44 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:20,200 on design better, that's exciting. 45 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,220 I'm excited every day to watch my kids grow up. 46 00:03:24,220 --> 00:03:28,420 I think that's pretty cool to just see human beings change and evolve. 47 00:03:28,832 --> 00:03:32,637 Brad Frost: Okay. 48 00:03:32,637 --> 00:03:47,857 So the first thing. 49 00:03:47,857 --> 00:03:51,662 Okay. 50 00:03:51,835 --> 00:03:53,125 Aarron Walter: I find really interesting. 51 00:03:54,082 --> 00:03:55,382 Brad Frost: That's, that's fascinating. 52 00:03:55,402 --> 00:03:57,582 That last part is interesting because it's like, 53 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:57,826 Aarron Walter: I, 54 00:03:57,826 --> 00:04:01,556 Brad Frost: you're interested in tweaking your own knobs, but it sounds like 55 00:04:01,556 --> 00:04:08,056 there's also this, this understanding that everyone has these knobs to tweak 56 00:04:08,334 --> 00:04:13,916 people throughout history and living presently are they either know or 57 00:04:13,916 --> 00:04:19,016 don't know that those knobs exist or they're, they're whatever and who's, 58 00:04:19,356 --> 00:04:23,716 kind of figured it out and how do you sort of apply that to your own life? 59 00:04:23,766 --> 00:04:28,706 And how do you tweak the knobs to to your own satisfaction which which 60 00:04:28,706 --> 00:04:33,836 I love that difference by the way of satisfaction versus happiness. 61 00:04:33,836 --> 00:04:40,076 I think that that's like a really important point that seems to evade 62 00:04:40,256 --> 00:04:45,906 people a lot which is just like it's satisfaction is like it just like a 63 00:04:45,996 --> 00:04:54,251 deeper sense of tranquility or honor or fulfillment versus this fleeting 64 00:04:54,251 --> 00:04:56,301 emotion that is, that is happiness. 65 00:04:56,759 --> 00:04:59,487 Aarron Walter: Yeah, that that's feels right to me. 66 00:04:59,689 --> 00:05:04,234 I, I really like to read and that's kind of a big part of what I'm excited about. 67 00:05:04,294 --> 00:05:09,484 Um, trying to fill a bunch of gaps of books that I never read that I 68 00:05:09,724 --> 00:05:13,804 probably should have read and also dig into some stuff that's, you 69 00:05:13,804 --> 00:05:16,894 know, maybe New and interesting, but, 70 00:05:17,104 --> 00:05:17,324 Brad Frost: yeah. 71 00:05:17,324 --> 00:05:18,634 What, what have you been reading? 72 00:05:19,302 --> 00:05:23,149 Aarron Walter: I, lately I'm reading, uh, right now I'm reading Donkey Hoti, which 73 00:05:23,149 --> 00:05:25,789 was written in, uh, published in 1605. 74 00:05:25,789 --> 00:05:31,639 And so, you know, like the human experience, 1605, it's very different 75 00:05:31,879 --> 00:05:34,459 and yet it's the same, you know, like 76 00:05:34,701 --> 00:05:35,581 Brad Frost: Futility. 77 00:05:36,379 --> 00:05:36,529 Aarron Walter: The 78 00:05:36,671 --> 00:05:37,081 Brad Frost: Right. 79 00:05:37,129 --> 00:05:37,909 Aarron Walter: suffering, 80 00:05:38,111 --> 00:05:38,421 Brad Frost: Yeah. 81 00:05:38,421 --> 00:05:46,121 Yeah. 82 00:05:48,942 --> 00:05:50,172 Aarron Walter: read Le Miserable. 83 00:05:50,562 --> 00:05:57,702 And, uh, that is all about trying to find a moral code, and it gets so confusing 84 00:05:57,702 --> 00:06:01,932 to one character in particular, I won't say because some folks may not have 85 00:06:01,932 --> 00:06:06,612 read it or seen the musical or whatever, there's one character that Has such 86 00:06:06,612 --> 00:06:12,192 certainty in his life that when that gets shaken and he's no longer certain 87 00:06:12,192 --> 00:06:16,092 about his moral code, he can't go on living and he has to end his life. 88 00:06:16,268 --> 00:06:20,648 and I I think that is fascinating that, you know, I too have been 89 00:06:20,648 --> 00:06:21,908 asking these same questions. 90 00:06:21,908 --> 00:06:23,078 Like, what does it mean to be? 91 00:06:23,858 --> 00:06:30,818 person to be a a good man, a good human, a good father, a good spouse, a good, 92 00:06:31,028 --> 00:06:32,708 you know, business partner, whatever. 93 00:06:32,984 --> 00:06:36,524 people, people keep asking these questions and they get lost. 94 00:06:36,524 --> 00:06:37,334 They get lost in it. 95 00:06:37,364 --> 00:06:43,619 And so I think, know, the more I learn and reflect on my life, the 96 00:06:43,619 --> 00:06:47,459 more I realize it's the same, it's always, it's always been the same, 97 00:06:47,459 --> 00:06:51,449 you know, I'm kind of like living, living the same human experience that 98 00:06:52,021 --> 00:06:52,291 Brad Frost: Yep. 99 00:06:52,529 --> 00:06:54,389 Aarron Walter: of people have who came before me. 100 00:06:55,158 --> 00:06:59,298 Brad Frost: love that and I also think it's, it's important to note that 101 00:06:59,298 --> 00:07:06,892 you're a designer I'm hearing in what you're saying this kind of methodical 102 00:07:07,512 --> 00:07:12,232 working through this stuff, which I think is beautiful because again, 103 00:07:12,242 --> 00:07:17,132 whether explicitly or not, we all sort of are navigating that terrain. 104 00:07:18,152 --> 00:07:22,182 And I think what's interesting is that people are seeking for 105 00:07:22,182 --> 00:07:24,012 these truths that are absolute. 106 00:07:24,577 --> 00:07:28,677 And I think that there's kind of a humility that comes with the 107 00:07:28,677 --> 00:07:34,981 design attitude and mentality where it's like there's no such thing as 108 00:07:35,051 --> 00:07:37,431 that and it is more of a journey. 109 00:07:37,861 --> 00:07:39,551 It's about ideation. 110 00:07:39,551 --> 00:07:40,221 It's about, 111 00:07:40,569 --> 00:07:40,859 Aarron Walter: Yeah. 112 00:07:41,561 --> 00:07:46,361 Brad Frost: about sort of separating less like here's a truth versus here's 113 00:07:46,391 --> 00:07:49,901 these things that tend to be more durable 114 00:07:50,471 --> 00:07:57,861 concepts or things that that feel sturdy versus like the I crack the code, right? 115 00:07:57,861 --> 00:07:58,371 Like, I don't know. 116 00:07:58,381 --> 00:08:03,711 Do you feel do you feel like this is a code to crack like or that you can or 117 00:08:03,924 --> 00:08:04,884 Aarron Walter: feel like it's a code to 118 00:08:05,131 --> 00:08:05,461 Brad Frost: yeah, 119 00:08:05,634 --> 00:08:09,174 Aarron Walter: I feel like it's a quest that you never reach the end. 120 00:08:09,174 --> 00:08:16,269 And I find myself I. really interested in, uh, reshaping my, my mentality. 121 00:08:16,269 --> 00:08:21,159 So I'd say, you know, in my younger years, uh, teens, twenties, thirties, 122 00:08:21,159 --> 00:08:24,279 the way that I thought about it was sort of, uh, of, of life. 123 00:08:25,299 --> 00:08:28,449 not, not really life is like a, a big picture 'cause I don't know if I 124 00:08:28,449 --> 00:08:30,279 was that introspective at that time. 125 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:34,869 But, you know, work and, and anything I was doing is sort 126 00:08:34,869 --> 00:08:36,639 of like, it's a checklist. 127 00:08:36,639 --> 00:08:42,699 Like I can get there and I can learn to do this thing and, um, I can get this done. 128 00:08:43,149 --> 00:08:46,149 Uh, I can meet this person, I can, you know, whatever. 129 00:08:46,629 --> 00:08:52,179 Uh, and it's, it's, really a flawed way of thinking, cause that's not really how. 130 00:08:52,989 --> 00:08:58,359 Time and life unfolds in, in, in my estimation, um, which is why 131 00:08:58,359 --> 00:09:02,499 I recently, uh, a couple years ago picked up the guitar again. 132 00:09:03,699 --> 00:09:09,069 and I also started, uh, juujitsu a year ago 'cause these are two disciplines 133 00:09:09,069 --> 00:09:13,689 like where you can keep at it and you can think like, Hey, I'm really good 134 00:09:13,689 --> 00:09:15,699 today and I've got it figured out. 135 00:09:15,699 --> 00:09:16,719 And then the next day. 136 00:09:17,019 --> 00:09:21,009 You can be absolutely humbled and just, it does not work out. 137 00:09:21,099 --> 00:09:23,859 Uh, I've had that happen with Juujitsu multiple times where I 138 00:09:23,859 --> 00:09:25,659 think, Hey, I'm getting good here. 139 00:09:25,659 --> 00:09:28,569 And I beat somebody who's of a higher rank than me. 140 00:09:29,289 --> 00:09:34,209 And the next day I just get clobbered by someone who's of a lower rank than me. 141 00:09:34,209 --> 00:09:35,919 And it's very humbling. 142 00:09:35,979 --> 00:09:41,229 Um, so it's just more of like a pursuit that, uh, you you just, 143 00:09:41,229 --> 00:09:43,419 you never reach a a destination. 144 00:09:43,921 --> 00:09:44,341 Brad Frost: yeah. 145 00:09:44,421 --> 00:09:46,301 And it sounds like a real. 146 00:09:46,831 --> 00:09:48,391 acceptance of that. 147 00:09:50,109 --> 00:09:50,949 Aarron Walter: Yeah. 148 00:09:51,061 --> 00:09:52,501 Brad Frost: Is that, is that, fair to say? 149 00:09:52,501 --> 00:09:57,481 It's like there's almost like a tension of like the pursuit of, of mastery 150 00:09:58,791 --> 00:10:03,811 of, of these hobbies, of these, these experiences, of this like thing that 151 00:10:03,811 --> 00:10:08,651 you're curious and excited about, but also a recognition that it's like, it 152 00:10:08,701 --> 00:10:15,941 isn't about perfection or it isn't about like conquering a thing, but it's more 153 00:10:15,941 --> 00:10:19,081 just the, the experience of it, right? 154 00:10:19,599 --> 00:10:24,609 Aarron Walter: I think that, uh, The younger me thought that the pursuit of 155 00:10:24,609 --> 00:10:29,859 mastery was like you could reach the destination And now the older me thinks 156 00:10:29,859 --> 00:10:36,779 it's a lot like Don Quixote where he's like pursuing, this noble truth of, you 157 00:10:36,779 --> 00:10:42,689 know, the, this, this honorable code and he just, he never quite gets there and he 158 00:10:42,689 --> 00:10:45,029 looks silly the more certain he becomes, 159 00:10:45,166 --> 00:10:46,316 Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, 160 00:10:46,409 --> 00:10:50,249 Aarron Walter: that's the way I feel about jiujitsu and their kind of 161 00:10:50,249 --> 00:10:52,649 metaphors for, The human experience. 162 00:10:52,892 --> 00:10:54,142 Brad Frost: such heart agree. 163 00:10:54,142 --> 00:10:58,462 Like if we were to have this exact conversation, like 164 00:10:58,462 --> 00:11:01,212 fast forward 30 years, right? 165 00:11:01,282 --> 00:11:04,022 I'm sure we'll we will have learned some stuff. 166 00:11:04,492 --> 00:11:09,342 We've had some additional experiences that are shaped our outlooks, but 167 00:11:09,842 --> 00:11:17,492 I, I have a strong suspicion that both still be seeking, right? 168 00:11:17,585 --> 00:11:19,985 Aarron Walter: I won't, I won't be doing any jiujitsu in 30 years. 169 00:11:19,985 --> 00:11:20,555 That's for sure. 170 00:11:22,715 --> 00:11:23,585 I will break. 171 00:11:24,742 --> 00:11:29,082 Brad Frost: just, you can feel the, you can hear the bones snapping from here. 172 00:11:29,645 --> 00:11:31,115 Aarron Walter: Maybe, maybe yoga. 173 00:11:32,777 --> 00:11:35,547 Brad Frost: But hopefully guitar, I mean, like, you know, that's, 174 00:11:35,807 --> 00:11:37,607 that's, that's one of those things. 175 00:11:37,627 --> 00:11:42,627 I recently watched this video of, it was a drummer who was, I think like 176 00:11:42,637 --> 00:11:50,237 102 and he's kind of at the assisted living place and he's doing it and 177 00:11:50,675 --> 00:11:50,795 Aarron Walter: That's 178 00:11:50,837 --> 00:11:54,327 Brad Frost: you could just see the neurons firing. 179 00:11:55,117 --> 00:12:01,217 And when you just see that, um, I I'm so fascinated by that stuff. 180 00:12:01,227 --> 00:12:05,737 When you, when people talk about longevity and whenever people talk about all 181 00:12:05,737 --> 00:12:14,137 of this stuff, it's, it's, you see it embodied in, uh, well, Les Paul was like 182 00:12:14,137 --> 00:12:19,757 another, another person, like, just like these older players, these older people 183 00:12:19,757 --> 00:12:25,897 that have been pursuing this thing, have been going on this journey for decades. 184 00:12:26,135 --> 00:12:26,615 Aarron Walter: Yeah. 185 00:12:26,787 --> 00:12:32,857 Brad Frost: But there's this, there's this real light, there's this real 186 00:12:32,867 --> 00:12:37,897 connection, there's this real, there's a deeper thing there than like, Oh, that's 187 00:12:37,897 --> 00:12:40,767 cute, this person's had this hobby for 188 00:12:42,485 --> 00:12:43,115 Aarron Walter: Yeah. 189 00:12:43,207 --> 00:12:43,927 Brad Frost: know what I mean? 190 00:12:43,927 --> 00:12:46,737 Like, there's, there's really something to that. 191 00:12:47,204 --> 00:12:51,374 Aarron Walter: yeah, I saw, uh, Herbie Hancock, uh, perform a couple years ago 192 00:12:51,404 --> 00:12:53,774 and, uh, got to meet him after the show. 193 00:12:53,856 --> 00:12:55,096 Brad Frost: Oh my god. 194 00:12:55,664 --> 00:12:56,414 Aarron Walter: that was amazing. 195 00:12:56,414 --> 00:13:01,544 But so for those of you who are, are not Herbie Hancock listeners, 196 00:13:01,604 --> 00:13:04,154 um, he's been at this for. 197 00:13:05,264 --> 00:13:09,074 Uh, what, 75 years, three quarters of a century. 198 00:13:09,355 --> 00:13:10,555 he's in his eighties. 199 00:13:10,585 --> 00:13:14,905 He was an anchor of Miles Davis's band for a long time. 200 00:13:15,235 --> 00:13:17,125 He's done major stuff. 201 00:13:17,245 --> 00:13:21,625 Uh, and thought, Okay, I'm gonna go see Herbie Hancock, sort of as 202 00:13:21,625 --> 00:13:26,140 like a, I, I just want to, I just wanna be near that creativity. 203 00:13:26,217 --> 00:13:26,667 Brad Frost: Yeah. 204 00:13:27,070 --> 00:13:29,560 Aarron Walter: But I'm sure I'm not catching him at his peak. 205 00:13:29,950 --> 00:13:35,080 And I think he was 82 at the time and he was still incredible. 206 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,580 He was so incredible. 207 00:13:36,970 --> 00:13:42,550 Uh, and, and still learning too, like, he's playing with young people. 208 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,790 Uh, and that's something I've always admired about. 209 00:13:46,060 --> 00:13:54,070 Certain creative people who are constantly staying close to youth, uh, new ideas, 210 00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:56,650 constantly pursuing and learning. 211 00:13:57,130 --> 00:13:58,870 Those are the folks that I really admire. 212 00:13:58,870 --> 00:14:00,400 That is one thing about Miles Davis. 213 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:06,490 There's a lot about his personal life not to admire, but his constant re-envisioning 214 00:14:06,490 --> 00:14:08,500 of who he is and who he can be 215 00:14:09,072 --> 00:14:09,422 Brad Frost: Yeah, 216 00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:12,250 Aarron Walter: staying close to new ideas. 217 00:14:12,610 --> 00:14:13,960 He was very good at that, 218 00:14:14,052 --> 00:14:14,435 Brad Frost: yeah, 219 00:14:14,563 --> 00:14:17,653 Aarron Walter: that, you know, people like Kirby Hancock, he learned from that 220 00:14:17,653 --> 00:14:23,413 because at, in his day, he was, he was 20 and he was the new idea, uh, bringing new 221 00:14:23,413 --> 00:14:26,653 ideas into, uh, to Miles Davis as well. 222 00:14:26,653 --> 00:14:28,513 So I, I like that. 223 00:14:28,634 --> 00:14:32,594 like being close to creativity and new ideas. 224 00:14:32,594 --> 00:14:33,734 I think it's contagious. 225 00:14:33,956 --> 00:14:38,526 Brad Frost: I 100 percent agree, and I think that that's like one of the real 226 00:14:38,646 --> 00:14:46,646 drivers of putting this show on is, is that again, it's, I've experienced like 227 00:14:46,646 --> 00:14:54,601 a lot of people who exhibit creativity in a lot of different realms and There's, 228 00:14:55,251 --> 00:15:02,831 I feel like, only until recently that there's, above the surface level or 229 00:15:02,841 --> 00:15:04,631 like outside of like the realm of 230 00:15:06,941 --> 00:15:10,181 scientific literature or psychology or whatever, have 231 00:15:10,181 --> 00:15:12,381 there been sort of a few things, 232 00:15:12,841 --> 00:15:17,811 that have kind of surfaced about just kind of the, the nature of creativity and 233 00:15:18,114 --> 00:15:18,534 Aarron Walter: Hmm. 234 00:15:18,701 --> 00:15:20,961 Brad Frost: of these things like a Rick Rubin's book. 235 00:15:21,367 --> 00:15:22,247 did you read that? 236 00:15:22,257 --> 00:15:23,057 Like it's, it's 237 00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:23,570 Aarron Walter: yeah, 238 00:15:23,917 --> 00:15:26,877 Brad Frost: that's a, that's a great example of it's just like, here's this 239 00:15:26,887 --> 00:15:31,799 kind of, let's like pick at sure he could punctuate some of the points. 240 00:15:32,689 --> 00:15:36,839 using his musical experience, but there's, there's a lot of stuff 241 00:15:38,109 --> 00:15:40,599 behind it that is more shared. 242 00:15:41,089 --> 00:15:47,399 And whenever you, um, Sir Ken Robinson is another sort of huge inspiration of 243 00:15:47,399 --> 00:15:51,339 mine, like the element, or it's just like, just driving home this idea of 244 00:15:51,339 --> 00:15:54,179 like, everyone has creative capacity. 245 00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:59,309 So this idea of, you know, what is everyone a designer or everyone not, 246 00:15:59,319 --> 00:16:01,569 or there's, there's, there's this line. 247 00:16:02,009 --> 00:16:02,889 That separates it. 248 00:16:02,889 --> 00:16:06,419 And that's something that I've always been kind of frustrated by because people 249 00:16:06,419 --> 00:16:12,609 will approach me at a conference or reach out and they're like, they will imply. 250 00:16:13,134 --> 00:16:18,264 It's like, oh yeah, you're, you're this and I couldn't ever or, or, you 251 00:16:18,264 --> 00:16:21,214 know, there's this, this division. 252 00:16:21,704 --> 00:16:24,384 I don't, I don't know if you've like experienced that as well, but 253 00:16:24,384 --> 00:16:27,784 it's like, that's, that's something that I've like, I'm like, no, 254 00:16:27,784 --> 00:16:30,524 no, no, we all, we all have it. 255 00:16:31,254 --> 00:16:35,744 And there are lessons to learn from Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis 256 00:16:35,764 --> 00:16:39,774 and really anyone else who is. 257 00:16:40,819 --> 00:16:50,689 Seeking to improve and be creative and keep your Eyes and mind open to 258 00:16:50,749 --> 00:16:56,679 to to growth and and doing something different than you were doing before and 259 00:16:56,679 --> 00:17:02,569 that seems to be that that creativity that's in everyone is the thing that I 260 00:17:02,829 --> 00:17:09,709 feel like separates people that might be your age or my age that are feeling 261 00:17:11,134 --> 00:17:16,234 Invigorated by things or, or interested in things versus the people who feel 262 00:17:16,234 --> 00:17:19,604 like they're, they're languishing or they're, they're, they're stuck 263 00:17:20,062 --> 00:17:20,352 Aarron Walter: Yeah. 264 00:17:20,644 --> 00:17:22,734 Brad Frost: or they're just like in a routine or something. 265 00:17:23,352 --> 00:17:25,898 Aarron Walter: A Couple things come to mind uh, from that. 266 00:17:26,218 --> 00:17:30,178 is curiosity and the other is uh, personal identity. 267 00:17:30,208 --> 00:17:35,758 I, I think that know, the notion of I I am or I am not a creative person. 268 00:17:35,980 --> 00:17:39,010 that's a message that we create for ourselves. 269 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:49,870 I think that humans are tremendously Capable of reinvention and creating 270 00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:53,200 new skills and exploring new territory. 271 00:17:53,860 --> 00:18:00,190 Uh, if we, if we allow ourselves, we, we do that to take that path. 272 00:18:00,220 --> 00:18:02,080 You have to be curious about. 273 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:07,300 well, What would it, would it be like if I worked on something 274 00:18:07,570 --> 00:18:08,980 for the next five years? 275 00:18:09,220 --> 00:18:11,710 Imagine myself in the future in five years. 276 00:18:11,710 --> 00:18:13,330 I. What would I be like? 277 00:18:13,330 --> 00:18:14,560 How would I be different? 278 00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:22,420 Um, I want to, I wanna do something with fashion and and I've never. 279 00:18:23,620 --> 00:18:27,640 I, I've i've never done anything like that maybe a little like sew on a button 280 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:33,550 on a shirt in, in home ec and now you wanna custom make jeans or uh, my wife 281 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,220 got a bunch of kimonos in uh in japan uh, these vintage kimonos and she wants 282 00:18:39,220 --> 00:18:43,360 to do some interesting new things with them rethink them so you gotta build some 283 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,150 skills um and it's just a matter of like. 284 00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:48,760 Okay, I I need to take some sewing classes. 285 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,200 What are the resources out there? 286 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,830 Uh, and go into that curious, 287 00:18:54,617 --> 00:18:54,927 Brad Frost: Yeah. 288 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:55,810 Aarron Walter: humble as well. 289 00:18:55,810 --> 00:18:59,620 I think that maybe that gets a little overused, but clearly, you're, you 290 00:18:59,620 --> 00:19:03,520 know, if you've got no experience, you you go into it with an inherent 291 00:19:03,610 --> 00:19:05,230 uh, level of humility, but. 292 00:19:05,567 --> 00:19:05,997 Brad Frost: Yeah. 293 00:19:06,220 --> 00:19:09,640 Aarron Walter: Um, Allowing yourself the opportunity that 294 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,500 you can learn a new thing. 295 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:17,650 You can, you can try new things, whatever your job is, your educational background. 296 00:19:18,550 --> 00:19:19,720 That those are great. 297 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,020 That's great experience that you can build upon and. 298 00:19:23,410 --> 00:19:24,940 you can start from scratch. 299 00:19:25,150 --> 00:19:29,590 You could learn something that is totally unrelated, seemingly unrelated. 300 00:19:29,860 --> 00:19:32,590 I'm, I'm a big believer that one way or another, you'll find some 301 00:19:32,590 --> 00:19:35,230 connection back to disciplines. 302 00:19:35,230 --> 00:19:37,300 But, um, I really like that. 303 00:19:37,330 --> 00:19:41,320 I am actually, I'm taking a mushroom foraging class online 304 00:19:41,437 --> 00:19:42,027 Brad Frost: Nice. 305 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,970 Aarron Walter: Uh, I don't know anything about it, but I'm curious. 306 00:19:46,420 --> 00:19:49,199 And I I try to do like some kind of a class every year. 307 00:19:49,274 --> 00:19:51,854 I, I do, I do classes weekly. 308 00:19:52,304 --> 00:19:58,394 You know, I mentioned guitar and, and but, um, I also try to do some other class. 309 00:19:58,394 --> 00:20:02,713 Like I did a stop the bleed, which is like a first a type of class. 310 00:20:02,745 --> 00:20:03,485 Brad Frost: Wow. 311 00:20:03,495 --> 00:20:04,075 Okay. 312 00:20:04,213 --> 00:20:07,543 Aarron Walter: I'm sort of curious, like, how could I be useful in 313 00:20:07,543 --> 00:20:09,478 a, in a challenging situation? 314 00:20:09,487 --> 00:20:16,357 I think it's great to reinvent yourself and build yourself into something more 315 00:20:16,357 --> 00:20:18,157 than what you could have imagined. 316 00:20:19,009 --> 00:20:19,309 Brad Frost: Yeah. 317 00:20:19,309 --> 00:20:21,729 Yeah, I think that that's, that's amazing. 318 00:20:21,729 --> 00:20:29,098 And you're embodying, I think what a lot of people, uh, would aspire to 319 00:20:30,208 --> 00:20:35,948 had they not already talked themselves out of it in their brain, right? 320 00:20:35,988 --> 00:20:40,918 And that that's, it's, it's a phenomenon that I see all the time with people. 321 00:20:40,918 --> 00:20:43,978 So for instance, it's like, you know, I do front end code. 322 00:20:44,638 --> 00:20:52,638 And I'm in a room full of designers, a lot of which have not done that type of thing. 323 00:20:53,158 --> 00:20:56,508 And I will just, you know, show them CodePen 324 00:21:09,248 --> 00:21:14,548 or, or they, they, they basically just hit this wall of like, but 325 00:21:14,548 --> 00:21:18,056 I couldn't possibly, or like, I need to, to spend the week. 326 00:21:18,186 --> 00:21:21,856 And I'm just like, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, right? 327 00:21:21,856 --> 00:21:27,436 Like, I think that you're right in that the curiosity helps drive things, 328 00:21:27,486 --> 00:21:31,234 but there's this, opposite end of the spectrum or like that, the sort of 329 00:21:31,234 --> 00:21:37,304 force against that is this whatever self doubt or overthinking or whatever. 330 00:21:37,314 --> 00:21:41,324 And it's something that we all experience, obviously, but it's like the people who 331 00:21:41,324 --> 00:21:47,694 are able to sort of compartmentalize that or reduce that impact and allow 332 00:21:47,724 --> 00:21:50,554 the curiosity to translate into action. 333 00:21:50,924 --> 00:21:55,154 That's, I think, a really huge, that, that's a skill. 334 00:21:56,099 --> 00:21:57,089 unto itself. 335 00:21:57,109 --> 00:22:01,049 Because I do think like a lot of people, we all have inherent 336 00:22:01,049 --> 00:22:06,539 curiosity, but it's like you said, it's like the, the acting on it. 337 00:22:06,999 --> 00:22:09,609 That's the differentiator right there. 338 00:22:09,939 --> 00:22:15,369 And acting on it requires that, that first step, whatever that is. 339 00:22:15,379 --> 00:22:19,759 So like, just here's a little text box, you know how to write text. 340 00:22:20,429 --> 00:22:25,559 You've been doing that for nearly all of your life, like put some words in 341 00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:30,449 there and guess what pixels are cheap and you're not going to blow up the planet 342 00:22:30,619 --> 00:22:35,107 by writing it that's something that I've been able to, to kind of, I hope, 343 00:22:35,157 --> 00:22:42,567 instill in other people is this more of a can do mentality around this stuff 344 00:22:42,567 --> 00:22:47,717 where it's just like, again, these things are not reserved for people like us. 345 00:22:48,191 --> 00:22:50,381 there's obviously a lot of factors at play. 346 00:22:50,391 --> 00:22:54,411 There's a lot of like, you know, your situation, where, where your 347 00:22:54,411 --> 00:22:58,341 front, like, your environment, your, all of those things like matter. 348 00:22:58,591 --> 00:23:06,571 And, and it's, it's important to recognize that there is this really innate sense 349 00:23:06,571 --> 00:23:08,441 of, yeah, we all have creativity. 350 00:23:08,441 --> 00:23:09,541 We all have curiosity. 351 00:23:09,541 --> 00:23:11,731 We all have these abilities 352 00:23:11,994 --> 00:23:12,414 Aarron Walter: Mm-hmm. 353 00:23:12,421 --> 00:23:15,061 Brad Frost: to, to imagine. 354 00:23:15,071 --> 00:23:22,276 And it just is like, how do you Get people to to take those 355 00:23:22,286 --> 00:23:26,036 steps to actually move forward 356 00:23:26,629 --> 00:23:30,139 Aarron Walter: sometimes it's just seeing it like seeing that someone else 357 00:23:30,139 --> 00:23:32,719 is doing it, seeing that it's possible. 358 00:23:33,979 --> 00:23:39,289 I think another thing that holds people back is they think, order for me to 359 00:23:39,469 --> 00:23:48,334 develop that skill or, um, learn something new, uh, it's, gonna be too hard because 360 00:23:48,334 --> 00:23:53,194 I'll be doing it on my own, but there's so many great resources out there. 361 00:23:53,194 --> 00:23:57,454 If you think about the world as a resource, whether you wanna learn 362 00:23:57,454 --> 00:24:01,776 to code, you wanna learn to make custom jeans, you wanna, learn to 363 00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:07,866 build a a home using timber framing like there are resources out there. 364 00:24:07,926 --> 00:24:11,106 Uh, if you know nothing, if you know less than nothing, 365 00:24:11,298 --> 00:24:11,648 Brad Frost: Yeah, 366 00:24:11,736 --> 00:24:16,026 Aarron Walter: can probably find someone who's teaching a class who does sort of 367 00:24:16,056 --> 00:24:21,250 like a camp, online, uh, youtube videos, 368 00:24:21,622 --> 00:24:22,392 Brad Frost: that like YouTube 369 00:24:22,450 --> 00:24:22,690 Aarron Walter: the 370 00:24:22,852 --> 00:24:23,052 Brad Frost: a 371 00:24:23,135 --> 00:24:23,375 Aarron Walter: above. 372 00:24:23,742 --> 00:24:28,202 Brad Frost: yeah YouTube is a miracle like YouTube is an absolute miracle like 373 00:24:28,442 --> 00:24:34,412 setting aside Whatever, radicalization in its algorithms and all of that stuff. 374 00:24:34,412 --> 00:24:38,072 It's like the ability, and we've been doing, we do it all the time 375 00:24:38,072 --> 00:24:42,712 with, with our daughter, where she'll ask that question, and that kind 376 00:24:42,712 --> 00:24:44,422 of has become our, like, default. 377 00:24:44,492 --> 00:24:48,252 It's just like, oh, let's, Let's just go watch a video 378 00:24:48,252 --> 00:24:49,752 of somebody doing that, right? 379 00:24:49,802 --> 00:24:54,632 Uh, we're drinking almond milk in the morning in our, in our, uh, cereal. 380 00:24:54,912 --> 00:25:00,042 Well, let's watch a video on how almond milk is made or whatever. 381 00:25:00,042 --> 00:25:04,662 And it's like, it's, it's just the fact that it's around and it's, and it's in 382 00:25:04,662 --> 00:25:09,592 this, there's something about the format, I think, of video too, that like kind of. 383 00:25:10,312 --> 00:25:14,142 Brings it down to earth in a way that a lot you could you know, you could 384 00:25:14,142 --> 00:25:17,132 read books You could like study it you could do that, but that kind of 385 00:25:17,155 --> 00:25:17,695 Aarron Walter: both. 386 00:25:17,875 --> 00:25:18,235 That's, 387 00:25:18,432 --> 00:25:18,962 Brad Frost: yeah 388 00:25:18,985 --> 00:25:22,435 Aarron Walter: an unlock for me is I read a lot of books and 389 00:25:22,435 --> 00:25:24,055 I'm reading books on my own. 390 00:25:24,085 --> 00:25:26,275 Like Les Mis, it's huge. 391 00:25:26,605 --> 00:25:28,285 And people, people call it the brick. 392 00:25:29,425 --> 00:25:32,575 I I kind of want to understand it, like understand what's 393 00:25:32,575 --> 00:25:34,315 the, what's the backstory. 394 00:25:34,315 --> 00:25:39,955 So I use things like YouTube to give me a background on the French revolution. 395 00:25:40,255 --> 00:25:47,395 Or to find someone who's doing like a a book group on this and they go through it 396 00:25:47,395 --> 00:25:49,375 and and kind of give you some analysis. 397 00:25:49,645 --> 00:25:53,605 I use chat, GPTI talk to chat GPT while I'm reading a book and say, 398 00:25:54,055 --> 00:25:56,545 you know, give me a background of what happened in the French 399 00:25:56,545 --> 00:25:59,815 Revolution in the 1820s to the 1830s. 400 00:26:00,265 --> 00:26:04,795 Uh, and, and you just get all this stuff that gives you the context 401 00:26:04,795 --> 00:26:06,715 you need to really understand it. 402 00:26:07,135 --> 00:26:12,115 In a way that even if I was in a college class, I I probably 403 00:26:12,115 --> 00:26:14,185 would not have gotten that level 404 00:26:14,252 --> 00:26:15,392 Brad Frost: no, that's right. 405 00:26:15,535 --> 00:26:20,335 Aarron Walter: And it's just a matter of like about the resources that are at your 406 00:26:20,335 --> 00:26:23,296 fingertips to, learn what you wanna learn. 407 00:26:23,296 --> 00:26:27,016 And, you know, to go back to your original question, what gets you up in the morning? 408 00:26:27,376 --> 00:26:28,036 It's learning. 409 00:26:28,096 --> 00:26:30,526 It's just, man, I love learning new things. 410 00:26:30,826 --> 00:26:35,956 And I just like the more that I learn, the more I see the cross connection between 411 00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:38,866 All all the different topics, the skills, 412 00:26:38,903 --> 00:26:39,223 Brad Frost: Yeah. 413 00:26:39,706 --> 00:26:41,806 Aarron Walter: the, you know, human experience. 414 00:26:42,313 --> 00:26:42,693 Brad Frost: Yeah, 415 00:26:42,766 --> 00:26:45,796 Aarron Walter: and that gives me a fuller understanding of my life 416 00:26:46,393 --> 00:26:49,893 Brad Frost: that's as beautiful and I think what's also worth pointing 417 00:26:49,893 --> 00:26:55,688 out about it is that that Your unique experience, right, like 418 00:26:55,688 --> 00:26:58,598 you are the only Aaron Walter who, 419 00:26:59,506 --> 00:27:00,196 Aarron Walter: that we know of. 420 00:27:02,288 --> 00:27:06,118 Brad Frost: but, but who, who hosts these specific podcasts about these 421 00:27:06,118 --> 00:27:09,848 specific things and have had these specific conversations and have 422 00:27:09,848 --> 00:27:11,938 also read these specific books. 423 00:27:12,558 --> 00:27:17,068 And I think that that's the thing that's another thing that I encounter 424 00:27:17,068 --> 00:27:19,568 and I'm sure you've encountered this as well, where people go, 425 00:27:19,608 --> 00:27:21,208 Oh, well, I couldn't possibly. 426 00:27:21,623 --> 00:27:25,793 Blog about this or share about this or write about this or pursue this 427 00:27:25,793 --> 00:27:29,903 because here's this other person Who's done this and it's like no, no, you 428 00:27:29,903 --> 00:27:38,258 don't understand You're coming at this with your unique perspective, like 429 00:27:38,298 --> 00:27:43,688 literally one of a kind, like Fred Rogers is like Pittsburgh superhero. 430 00:27:43,718 --> 00:27:44,148 Right? 431 00:27:44,448 --> 00:27:46,828 And it's like, whenever it's like, you are special. 432 00:27:47,088 --> 00:27:48,618 Like, there's only one of you. 433 00:27:48,938 --> 00:27:51,058 It's like, man, I have internalized that. 434 00:27:51,058 --> 00:27:54,538 And it's like, He's right, he's absolutely right. 435 00:27:54,548 --> 00:28:00,928 There's only one person who've walked, and read, and absorbed, and have watched 436 00:28:00,928 --> 00:28:07,258 these specific videos, and whatever, and that shapes your specific human 437 00:28:07,258 --> 00:28:09,253 experience, but that also shapes you. 438 00:28:09,803 --> 00:28:16,773 allows you and you do a great job at this at at sort of being able to share 439 00:28:16,773 --> 00:28:21,433 that experience outward to the benefit of others and I think that that's 440 00:28:21,433 --> 00:28:26,073 like that's so cool because like you could just be doing it and keeping it 441 00:28:26,073 --> 00:28:31,193 all to yourself but there's something really magical in that understanding 442 00:28:31,203 --> 00:28:37,223 that like your unique human experience can have an impact on others. 443 00:28:38,563 --> 00:28:44,893 And it has this, this exponential effect, which is the more people that are 444 00:28:44,903 --> 00:28:53,073 doing that learning, sharing, growing, helping, it's this upward spiral that 445 00:28:53,073 --> 00:28:59,363 you don't get if you're just kind of Again, you could just be heading a 446 00:28:59,363 --> 00:29:03,303 book and, and, and, and stay there. 447 00:29:03,413 --> 00:29:07,333 And that's, and not saying that that's like wrong, but there's this, 448 00:29:07,383 --> 00:29:11,933 there's this extra dimension that I feel like you've lived for a long 449 00:29:11,953 --> 00:29:14,303 time, which is this like really. 450 00:29:14,703 --> 00:29:22,833 Deep understanding that by way of sharing what you're learning, by way of, of 451 00:29:22,883 --> 00:29:27,653 taking these things in, but then kind of packaging them up for others to, to 452 00:29:27,833 --> 00:29:30,433 hold them up for others to, to pick at. 453 00:29:31,583 --> 00:29:38,553 Selfishly, I'm sure it helps you in your understanding of Oh, 454 00:29:39,241 --> 00:29:41,491 Aarron Walter: I'm gonna share with you some wisdom that I learned 455 00:29:41,491 --> 00:29:45,691 from, uh, this guy, Dan Pink, who's written a bunch of great books. 456 00:29:45,691 --> 00:29:48,781 He used to write, uh, speeches for Al Gore. 457 00:29:49,411 --> 00:29:52,741 Uh, he wrote a great book about regret, the power of regret. 458 00:29:53,491 --> 00:29:55,741 And I asked him, why did you write this book? 459 00:29:55,741 --> 00:29:59,731 And he said, be honest, all research is me search. 460 00:30:00,393 --> 00:30:00,803 Brad Frost: yeah. 461 00:30:01,291 --> 00:30:03,001 Aarron Walter: uh, I find that. 462 00:30:03,331 --> 00:30:07,321 You know, the design, better podcast and reconsidering podcasts, they're different 463 00:30:07,321 --> 00:30:10,771 topics, but there is some commonality. 464 00:30:10,831 --> 00:30:15,661 I am curious about these topics and I am selfishly trying to teach 465 00:30:15,661 --> 00:30:18,211 myself learn from other people. 466 00:30:18,661 --> 00:30:24,601 And by turning that into a podcast and kind of a. Media platform. 467 00:30:24,601 --> 00:30:28,111 It gives me the structure and the accountability to continue to learn. 468 00:30:28,111 --> 00:30:33,421 So, uh, yeah, like it's, it is good for everyone and I do want to share, but. 469 00:30:34,321 --> 00:30:37,531 You know, I, I come to it with selfish intentions. 470 00:30:37,531 --> 00:30:38,011 I, I 471 00:30:38,011 --> 00:30:38,731 just wanna, I 472 00:30:38,733 --> 00:30:39,193 Brad Frost: Yeah. 473 00:30:39,361 --> 00:30:43,231 Aarron Walter: to all the people and learn as much as I can from them. 474 00:30:43,578 --> 00:30:44,258 Brad Frost: That's beautiful. 475 00:30:44,258 --> 00:30:46,408 But like, but that's the, that's the thing though. 476 00:30:46,408 --> 00:30:49,018 It's like, it's, this isn't a zero sum game. 477 00:30:49,548 --> 00:30:51,818 These things are not mutually exclusive. 478 00:30:51,868 --> 00:30:57,088 And I think that that's like, that's one of the, the biggest lessons I feel 479 00:30:57,088 --> 00:31:03,828 like I've learned over the years has been that I just, how few things are 480 00:31:04,168 --> 00:31:09,738 Zero sum or it's either this or that, and that there's all of these things 481 00:31:09,738 --> 00:31:17,498 that you can design to be these win win situations or win win win win win win 482 00:31:17,498 --> 00:31:26,048 win win situations where it's like, it really Once you realize that, that, oh 483 00:31:26,048 --> 00:31:31,198 yeah, I could be like immensely selfish and, and do this, but at the same time 484 00:31:31,198 --> 00:31:35,498 I'm going to structure it in a way that everybody else is going to be able to sort 485 00:31:35,498 --> 00:31:38,028 of catch the wake of that selfishness. 486 00:31:38,028 --> 00:31:43,008 And I'm going to put it out there and that's going to, yes, help you 487 00:31:43,468 --> 00:31:46,798 individually grow, but it's also going to sort of start people's own 488 00:31:46,798 --> 00:31:50,638 curiosity and whatever it's again, it's that, it's that upward spiral. 489 00:31:51,208 --> 00:31:55,218 And I think that that's, It's amazing because you're able to 490 00:31:55,218 --> 00:32:01,638 realize that there's no psychological disconnect because we tend to think 491 00:32:01,638 --> 00:32:07,883 of selfishness as a, an attribute to, you know, avoid, we tend to think 492 00:32:07,883 --> 00:32:09,703 of it as this negative thing, right? 493 00:32:09,953 --> 00:32:13,003 But once you realize you're like, well, of course, you're, you're taking care 494 00:32:13,003 --> 00:32:17,163 of yourself and you're living your own human experience, and that's it. 495 00:32:18,075 --> 00:32:21,665 But to not like focus there at the expense of others. 496 00:32:21,665 --> 00:32:25,065 And that's like, I think sort of something that I really want to pick at on this, 497 00:32:25,175 --> 00:32:31,145 on this podcast, because it's like this phenomenon that we're talking about. 498 00:32:31,165 --> 00:32:35,735 It was like, there's, there's the, the self growth, there's a self understanding, 499 00:32:35,735 --> 00:32:39,315 the self awareness, the, the, all of that stuff that we've been talking about. 500 00:32:39,595 --> 00:32:44,325 But then there's also this responsibility to. 501 00:32:45,510 --> 00:32:49,020 The people in our lives are these sort of concentric circles, right? 502 00:32:49,020 --> 00:32:51,860 There's, there's you, there's your nuclear family. 503 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,160 There's, there's your, your local community. 504 00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:57,190 There's, you know, the design community. 505 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:04,950 And so you, you kind of like, we have these responsibilities to the people in 506 00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:11,590 our lives are the communities we operate in the environments we operating in and 507 00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:15,250 the world at large, and there tends to be. 508 00:33:15,595 --> 00:33:19,055 And I don't know if you've experienced this and I'd like love to get your, 509 00:33:19,115 --> 00:33:23,448 your take on it, but it's just like wrestling with that balance 510 00:33:23,738 --> 00:33:26,868 of I'm taking care of myself. 511 00:33:26,918 --> 00:33:33,040 I am, yeah, my head's in a book and I'm, I'm thoroughly enjoying this endeavor. 512 00:33:33,915 --> 00:33:38,325 when bombs are falling, or when, when, you know, the state of the world is, 513 00:33:38,335 --> 00:33:42,565 is in this extremely unhealthy place. 514 00:33:42,615 --> 00:33:45,875 And so it's sort of like, there's something there that what we were just 515 00:33:45,885 --> 00:33:51,335 talking about, about that kind of, there's the self, there's others, and 516 00:33:51,335 --> 00:33:53,605 there's sure these like selfish things. 517 00:33:54,225 --> 00:33:57,345 That also kind of have like a positive impact on others if 518 00:33:57,345 --> 00:33:59,615 you, if you, if you share them. 519 00:33:59,765 --> 00:34:00,095 Right. 520 00:34:00,095 --> 00:34:00,785 I, I don't know. 521 00:34:00,815 --> 00:34:02,795 Like I covered a lot of things there. 522 00:34:02,855 --> 00:34:03,125 Yeah. 523 00:34:03,125 --> 00:34:03,545 Yeah. 524 00:34:03,968 --> 00:34:07,148 Aarron Walter: I have a, I, I have a a way that I think about this. 525 00:34:07,148 --> 00:34:09,518 These are, um, called super activities. 526 00:34:09,908 --> 00:34:16,088 So there are activities that you can do that might you, uh, mentally, 527 00:34:17,348 --> 00:34:22,538 spiritually I. and, you know, nourish your relationships and 528 00:34:22,538 --> 00:34:26,018 there are activities that can do more than one thing simultaneously. 529 00:34:26,738 --> 00:34:28,778 Um, I'll give you a couple examples. 530 00:34:29,018 --> 00:34:35,918 So I started Juujitsu Because my youngest son dropped out and we had a contract. 531 00:34:36,698 --> 00:34:41,768 And so I thought, okay, gonna go ahead and take over that contract and 532 00:34:41,768 --> 00:34:47,978 get my older son who is 14 and at a point in his life where he has, he's 533 00:34:47,978 --> 00:34:51,698 got a lot of, uh, energy that needs to be channeled in a positive way. 534 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:52,310 Brad Frost: right? 535 00:34:52,808 --> 00:34:53,228 Aarron Walter: He's got a 536 00:34:53,330 --> 00:34:53,750 Brad Frost: Mm-hmm 537 00:34:54,068 --> 00:34:55,088 Aarron Walter: testosterone. 538 00:34:55,118 --> 00:35:00,578 And so I want to, I wanna make sure that he's building skills and also learning. 539 00:35:02,468 --> 00:35:04,838 and, there's some danger to that. 540 00:35:04,838 --> 00:35:09,458 And that's part of growing up is being able to operate within a more nuanced set 541 00:35:09,458 --> 00:35:17,138 of, uh, constraints And so we, we fight each other on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 542 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:17,970 Brad Frost: Amazing. 543 00:35:18,128 --> 00:35:22,058 Aarron Walter: uh, so he's beating me up and I'm beating him up and we're 544 00:35:22,058 --> 00:35:26,678 learning all kinds of choke holds and, uh, boxing and stuff like that. 545 00:35:26,678 --> 00:35:27,998 And it's super fun. 546 00:35:28,028 --> 00:35:32,648 It's super fun together 'cause it is done safely, but we learn a skill. 547 00:35:32,708 --> 00:35:34,658 So we're nourishing our, our intellect. 548 00:35:34,975 --> 00:35:35,185 Brad Frost: Yeah. 549 00:35:35,828 --> 00:35:39,518 Aarron Walter: uh, I I, when you have a teenager, you rarely get to hug them. 550 00:35:40,388 --> 00:35:44,048 I get to hug him pretty regularly in a very tight way 551 00:35:46,298 --> 00:35:46,663 when we're fighting. 552 00:35:47,443 --> 00:35:47,663 Um. 553 00:35:48,923 --> 00:35:51,863 and, and we get to spend this time together and have this 554 00:35:51,863 --> 00:35:53,333 kind of shared experience. 555 00:35:53,633 --> 00:35:54,803 That's a super activity. 556 00:35:54,803 --> 00:35:55,194 I, I 557 00:35:55,295 --> 00:35:55,925 Brad Frost: beautiful. 558 00:35:56,213 --> 00:35:56,813 Aarron Walter: boxes. 559 00:35:56,813 --> 00:35:57,023 I, 560 00:35:57,065 --> 00:35:57,665 Brad Frost: Beautiful. 561 00:35:58,133 --> 00:36:01,073 Aarron Walter: I feel like there's also a spiritual component to that as well. 562 00:36:01,553 --> 00:36:06,263 Uh, for a while I gave my wife such a hard time because she goes 563 00:36:06,263 --> 00:36:10,253 to this gym that is like a, it's kinda like an old person's gym. 564 00:36:10,253 --> 00:36:13,373 That's part of like a hospital rehabilitation thing 565 00:36:13,645 --> 00:36:13,855 Brad Frost: Yeah. 566 00:36:14,123 --> 00:36:16,043 Aarron Walter: and it's out of the way. 567 00:36:16,073 --> 00:36:20,243 So she's gotta drive all the way there, take her classes, you know, 568 00:36:20,243 --> 00:36:22,103 work out and then drive home. 569 00:36:22,283 --> 00:36:24,683 So it kind of occupies the entire morning. 570 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:31,625 Brad Frost: Silence. 571 00:36:31,625 --> 00:36:38,330 Silence. 572 00:36:38,698 --> 00:36:40,468 Aarron Walter: that she brings to these classes. 573 00:36:40,948 --> 00:36:42,628 They give each other gifts that, you 574 00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:42,930 Brad Frost: Silence. 575 00:36:42,930 --> 00:36:57,370 Silence. 576 00:36:58,258 --> 00:36:58,678 Aarron Walter: it's good 577 00:36:58,780 --> 00:37:16,506 Brad Frost: Um, Silence. 578 00:37:16,506 --> 00:37:25,354 Silence. 579 00:37:25,354 --> 00:37:35,098 Silence. 580 00:37:35,176 --> 00:37:35,776 Aarron Walter: together. 581 00:37:36,496 --> 00:37:36,976 Um, 582 00:37:37,338 --> 00:37:37,398 Brad Frost: Silence. 583 00:37:37,426 --> 00:37:40,396 Aarron Walter: do a lot of cooking for my mother-in-law who's wrestled 584 00:37:40,396 --> 00:37:45,436 with some illness and that makes her feel better and be healthier. 585 00:37:46,486 --> 00:37:50,326 and when I can be of service, that is good for me. 586 00:37:50,356 --> 00:37:55,396 I, That's like, it's a gift for me that I get to do that for somebody else. 587 00:37:56,155 --> 00:38:00,055 I tell my, I tell my kids all the time, you know, a good man puts more 588 00:38:00,055 --> 00:38:02,365 value into the world than he extracts. 589 00:38:02,845 --> 00:38:03,925 And that doesn't have to be gendered. 590 00:38:03,925 --> 00:38:05,035 It's a good person puts 591 00:38:05,127 --> 00:38:06,137 Brad Frost: Sure, yeah, 592 00:38:06,295 --> 00:38:07,225 Aarron Walter: than they extract. 593 00:38:08,365 --> 00:38:12,698 and thinking about that, think can, can be a good framework for life. 594 00:38:12,698 --> 00:38:13,418 What can I do? 595 00:38:13,418 --> 00:38:16,088 That's providing value for others. 596 00:38:16,568 --> 00:38:18,128 I'm gonna get value out of that as well. 597 00:38:18,133 --> 00:38:18,303 When 598 00:38:18,395 --> 00:38:18,685 Brad Frost: Yeah. 599 00:38:18,823 --> 00:38:19,583 Aarron Walter: service mindset. 600 00:38:20,945 --> 00:38:21,805 Brad Frost: And that's just it. 601 00:38:21,815 --> 00:38:28,665 It's like, that's that last part is the thing that like, it seems 602 00:38:28,675 --> 00:38:34,885 obvious and, and experientially it is obvious as like, oh yeah, I see 603 00:38:34,885 --> 00:38:36,775 you smile and I'm smiling right back. 604 00:38:36,775 --> 00:38:41,605 And there's a lot of, you know, science to back that up, but yet at the same 605 00:38:41,625 --> 00:38:45,025 time, this, this kind of prevalent. 606 00:38:45,665 --> 00:38:51,805 Attitude, at least in America, for sure, is this like, this has to be 607 00:38:51,855 --> 00:38:56,635 this competition or this has to be at at the expense of something else and 608 00:38:56,635 --> 00:39:00,415 like, just fundamentally reject that but but coming back to what you're 609 00:39:00,415 --> 00:39:05,805 saying, I think that you brought up some like really important things in here. 610 00:39:05,815 --> 00:39:09,975 So you're talking about, I love this idea of super activities. 611 00:39:10,517 --> 00:39:15,951 I couldn't help but think the way that Society is structured. 612 00:39:16,231 --> 00:39:20,767 We're, we're kind of in this, um, in the phase of life where, you 613 00:39:20,767 --> 00:39:22,397 know, our daughter's almost seven. 614 00:39:22,407 --> 00:39:24,887 So it's like she's starting to get into activities. 615 00:39:25,247 --> 00:39:29,627 A lot of the people around us are a little further along that road. 616 00:39:30,127 --> 00:39:35,345 And you just see what this kind of, um, it's, it's kind of like a relentless. 617 00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:39,170 But, like, it's, it's the opposite of what you're talking about 618 00:39:39,170 --> 00:39:40,370 with these super activities. 619 00:39:40,380 --> 00:39:45,200 It's like, it's this, like, relentless, one dimensional things, where it's 620 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,772 just, like, minivan prison, right? 621 00:39:47,772 --> 00:39:52,557 Like, it's, like, on my road, like, I, I watch The one family and you know, they're 622 00:39:52,577 --> 00:39:56,977 they're committed to it and but and frankly, they have four kids So that but 623 00:39:56,977 --> 00:40:01,375 they're just constantly I'm sure that they you know, they would have some version 624 00:40:01,375 --> 00:40:07,625 of like how this is a super activity for them but a lot I see a lot of the people 625 00:40:07,625 --> 00:40:14,720 in my life family members and so on really like There's a lot of misery there 626 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:21,210 because it's not these activities, even though they technically like could have 627 00:40:21,210 --> 00:40:23,470 the potential to be these super activity. 628 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:32,910 They are, they're like pursued, and almost like that the macro level design 629 00:40:32,930 --> 00:40:39,100 of the thing just seems to be just so narrowly focused, and it's so this 630 00:40:39,140 --> 00:40:44,670 compartmentalization of a lot of the different facets of life and society, 631 00:40:44,930 --> 00:40:47,030 the really frustrating and whenever. 632 00:40:47,350 --> 00:40:52,890 All you need to do is just like, whatever, read any book or look at any documentary 633 00:40:52,890 --> 00:40:55,610 or anything about like healthy societies. 634 00:40:56,020 --> 00:40:59,730 And they're the ones that are able to blend, you know, the Tai Chi's of 635 00:40:59,730 --> 00:41:03,130 the world where it's, yeah, you go to the park and you're out in nature 636 00:41:03,130 --> 00:41:06,210 and you're with your peers and you're doing these healthy activities. 637 00:41:06,210 --> 00:41:08,430 It's like, these are no brainers, 638 00:41:08,673 --> 00:41:09,093 Aarron Walter: Mm-hmm. 639 00:41:09,170 --> 00:41:12,240 Brad Frost: whatever reason, the phenomenon I see. 640 00:41:12,690 --> 00:41:14,990 In my little world, at least, is, 641 00:41:15,630 --> 00:41:20,090 here's this chunked out, segmented things that are being like, this 642 00:41:20,090 --> 00:41:25,160 is, this is this, and this is for this person only, and this is only 643 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,930 doing these things, or attacking these dimensions of life, whether 644 00:41:28,930 --> 00:41:31,500 it's physilect, you know, whatever. 645 00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:34,110 And it's like, it's, we're selling ourselves short! 646 00:41:34,420 --> 00:41:34,720 Right? 647 00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:39,170 Like, these things You don't even need to really do much to 648 00:41:39,170 --> 00:41:40,840 change the structure of them. 649 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,070 It's, it's more an attitude than it is anything else. 650 00:41:44,675 --> 00:41:45,745 I, I love that. 651 00:41:45,775 --> 00:41:50,280 What, what you said about you and your son and how you're You really, you 652 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:57,030 have this awareness of the multifaceted things that you get out of this shared 653 00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:58,940 activity together, which is beautiful. 654 00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:03,760 And then I contrast that with the people that I see running in the minivans 655 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,920 that just seem absolutely miserable. 656 00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:10,240 And I'm sure that there's, there's, there's some truth there and 657 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:12,190 it's not an all or nothing thing. 658 00:42:12,620 --> 00:42:18,330 But like open yourself up to just the gift that is this like time together 659 00:42:18,330 --> 00:42:20,340 and whatever, you know, anyways. 660 00:42:20,408 --> 00:42:24,608 Aarron Walter: I, I think we're, you know, we're, we're super social animals 661 00:42:24,668 --> 00:42:30,200 and, I, just think, I think it's so amazing how humans will just fall in line. 662 00:42:30,791 --> 00:42:34,331 even, you know, self-aware people just kind of fall in line to 663 00:42:34,361 --> 00:42:38,141 the social constructs of, is what other people are doing. 664 00:42:39,071 --> 00:42:42,431 You know, if I'm an 8-year-old in school and I see that my friends 665 00:42:42,461 --> 00:42:46,931 are all doing travel soccer and you know, I want to go be part of that. 666 00:42:47,111 --> 00:42:49,241 I, I can't blame an 8-year-old kid for that. 667 00:42:49,241 --> 00:42:50,291 They want to go do it. 668 00:42:50,538 --> 00:42:56,238 but a parent has to consent and consider what is the, the cost of this. 669 00:42:56,587 --> 00:43:04,057 I think that there's just expanding out from the micro universe of, you 670 00:43:04,057 --> 00:43:05,917 know, parents with young children. 671 00:43:06,397 --> 00:43:14,437 Um, there's so much of our culture, our workforce, our economy, our 672 00:43:14,437 --> 00:43:20,047 life, that is kind of the matrix of I, never considered that. 673 00:43:20,737 --> 00:43:26,227 Life could operate in a different way, in a way that bends more towards my 674 00:43:26,227 --> 00:43:30,847 interests, my needs, uh, my, my goals 675 00:43:31,874 --> 00:43:32,004 Brad Frost: That's. 676 00:43:32,257 --> 00:43:34,837 Aarron Walter: those who are kind of curious about it could say, 677 00:43:34,867 --> 00:43:40,297 okay, what's the cost benefit analysis here on if my kid. 678 00:43:40,477 --> 00:43:42,937 My eighth grader does travel volleyball 679 00:43:43,264 --> 00:43:43,604 Brad Frost: Yeah. 680 00:43:43,777 --> 00:43:47,497 Aarron Walter: and they're gonna be, we're gonna be on the road. 681 00:43:47,917 --> 00:43:51,127 We're gonna have to pay for flights in some circumstances, 682 00:43:51,344 --> 00:43:51,674 Brad Frost: Yep. 683 00:43:52,147 --> 00:43:53,677 Aarron Walter: we're gonna be gone all weekend. 684 00:43:53,707 --> 00:43:59,107 The younger siblings, other siblings, what's the cost that is paid for 685 00:43:59,164 --> 00:43:59,334 Brad Frost: hmm. 686 00:43:59,587 --> 00:44:00,607 Aarron Walter: and relationship there. 687 00:44:01,171 --> 00:44:05,341 The cost, you know, for a, a kid who's doing the same 688 00:44:05,461 --> 00:44:07,111 movement over and over again. 689 00:44:07,516 --> 00:44:11,581 My, My nieces have had multiple surgeries from that stuff. 690 00:44:12,721 --> 00:44:15,031 because they just, you know, do it over and over again. 691 00:44:15,031 --> 00:44:15,121 They 692 00:44:15,338 --> 00:44:15,778 Brad Frost: Sure. 693 00:44:16,021 --> 00:44:19,531 Aarron Walter: quickly, know, somebody like Jerry Rice, who's a hall of 694 00:44:19,531 --> 00:44:23,827 fame, wide receiver for San Francisco 49 ERs didn't play football until 695 00:44:23,827 --> 00:44:25,417 he was a sophomore in high school. 696 00:44:26,317 --> 00:44:31,027 so like the specialization so early, it, it has a lot of costs. 697 00:44:31,445 --> 00:44:36,695 think the lesson I take from it is, you make decisions that. 698 00:44:38,060 --> 00:44:41,840 Bends your, your, your time and your energy investment 699 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,450 towards the payoff that you want 700 00:44:44,832 --> 00:44:45,192 Brad Frost: Yeah, 701 00:44:45,350 --> 00:44:49,195 Aarron Walter: of the, the, the thing that you think you're supposed to do, 702 00:44:49,972 --> 00:44:52,072 Brad Frost: I'd really like to use it. 703 00:44:52,082 --> 00:44:58,582 Since you just said pay off an investment, uh, this, this brings, uh, like, I, 704 00:44:58,582 --> 00:45:03,132 I, I definitely wanted to like, get here in our conversation, but I think 705 00:45:03,132 --> 00:45:07,412 that, like, one of the things with all of this, as well as, yeah, just 706 00:45:07,792 --> 00:45:12,642 whatever kids activities in general, but also like what we do with our time. 707 00:45:13,352 --> 00:45:17,162 And life energy is like there's money, right? 708 00:45:17,192 --> 00:45:19,822 And so, like, I think, and even back to what we were sort of 709 00:45:19,872 --> 00:45:21,092 talking about, it's like, oh, yeah. 710 00:45:21,532 --> 00:45:26,102 Curiosity or pursuing these hobbies, it's just the backdrop to all of that. 711 00:45:26,642 --> 00:45:29,065 Is, is money, we, 712 00:45:29,298 --> 00:45:34,158 Aarron Walter: the, the, the opportunity, the decision making, if you are 713 00:45:34,158 --> 00:45:39,198 stuck on a treadmill where you've, you've got to just continue to make 714 00:45:39,228 --> 00:45:44,358 a certain amount of money, none of that curiosity talk decision making. 715 00:45:44,778 --> 00:45:45,798 Really, like, 716 00:45:45,995 --> 00:45:46,515 Brad Frost: yeah, 717 00:45:46,728 --> 00:45:47,538 Aarron Walter: or makes sense. 718 00:45:47,655 --> 00:45:53,545 Brad Frost: yeah, and, and, and that's, and, and that seems to be it, and, 719 00:45:53,545 --> 00:45:57,145 and it's a phenomenon that I've, I've experienced wherever people are like, oh, 720 00:45:57,145 --> 00:46:02,995 you're like doing these, like, Kind of weird things and I'm not entirely sure 721 00:46:03,005 --> 00:46:08,305 how you actually earn money or whatever But like but I guess what I'd love to to 722 00:46:08,305 --> 00:46:14,385 get at here and and this is so we've had conversations in the past So we're both. 723 00:46:14,435 --> 00:46:20,065 Um aware and and practitioners of of this notion called fire which is called 724 00:46:20,115 --> 00:46:26,735 financial independence retire early And there's kind of a whole ethos around it. 725 00:46:26,765 --> 00:46:28,845 There's a whole bunch of literature around it. 726 00:46:28,855 --> 00:46:30,315 There's a whole bunch of podcasts. 727 00:46:30,315 --> 00:46:31,255 There's a whole bunch of books. 728 00:46:31,255 --> 00:46:34,285 There's a whole bunch of like a lot of things. 729 00:46:34,835 --> 00:46:39,395 And I think I'm really excited to talk to you about your experience of 730 00:46:39,395 --> 00:46:45,345 it because kind of being outside of that apparatus, which kind of, you 731 00:46:45,345 --> 00:46:49,745 know, just like how design designers have a culture and we have like our 732 00:46:49,785 --> 00:46:51,515 little like ecosystem or bubble. 733 00:46:52,095 --> 00:46:53,405 I feel like you're kind of. 734 00:46:53,820 --> 00:46:59,160 Well, we're both kind of outside of that realm, but at the same time, I 735 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:03,220 feel like I've been pursuing this in our sort of various stages of our journey. 736 00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:12,310 Around relationship with money, how we see it and, and how that's maybe 737 00:47:12,350 --> 00:47:20,340 unlocked some of this, this kind of higher level self actualization that 738 00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:26,660 you've been able to pursue in large part because you've, you've positioned 739 00:47:26,670 --> 00:47:29,150 things properly with respect to money. 740 00:47:29,180 --> 00:47:31,588 So, Aaron, what are your thoughts on money 741 00:47:34,786 --> 00:47:36,526 Aarron Walter: I think of money as a tool. 742 00:47:36,876 --> 00:47:44,080 ideally, I would, I want money to buy freedom and joy, opportunities for growth. 743 00:47:45,023 --> 00:47:50,483 I am a realist, you know, I, I grew up, uh, in a family where we were always sort 744 00:47:50,483 --> 00:47:55,523 of to trying to get by, um, wasn't always easy and there were some times where it 745 00:47:55,523 --> 00:48:00,272 was a little, little dodgy there, but in the grand scheme of things, I, you know, 746 00:48:00,272 --> 00:48:05,972 I'd say I'm a very fortunate person and I've been super lucky in my life of being 747 00:48:05,972 --> 00:48:11,852 in the right place at the right time, born at the dawn of computers and kind 748 00:48:11,852 --> 00:48:17,372 of born into an economy that was gonna support my and interests and so forth. 749 00:48:17,462 --> 00:48:23,258 But, I will say that if we can be intentional and realist about 750 00:48:23,258 --> 00:48:28,298 money what things are bring value. 751 00:48:29,318 --> 00:48:34,388 to our life and, I value is something like we could deconstruct that word, 752 00:48:34,388 --> 00:48:39,848 but does it, create, uh, one of those things I mentioned, does it create an 753 00:48:39,848 --> 00:48:45,038 opportunity to learn, you know, is that a class or is that, uh, weeks off so you 754 00:48:45,038 --> 00:48:50,668 could just go practice sewing or, um, something like that, we think about money 755 00:48:50,668 --> 00:48:57,238 that way versus, uh, our, our wants, our momentary wants, I want a cup of coffee. 756 00:48:57,238 --> 00:49:01,408 I want to go out to dinner cause I don't feel like making dinner tonight, man. 757 00:49:01,408 --> 00:49:01,918 That's me. 758 00:49:01,918 --> 00:49:07,888 I, I, I am that person as well, But if you can of automate that and think 759 00:49:07,888 --> 00:49:15,208 about yourself 30 years down the road, uh, and start investing early. 760 00:49:15,698 --> 00:49:16,958 Man, that is huge. 761 00:49:16,958 --> 00:49:19,898 If you can start investing in your early twenties. 762 00:49:20,363 --> 00:49:25,763 Even a small amount like you're putting 50 bucks into, uh, you know, you got a 763 00:49:25,763 --> 00:49:30,593 Schwab account and you get, uh, like a total stock market index fund that you're 764 00:49:30,593 --> 00:49:33,233 just putting 50 bucks in here or there. 765 00:49:33,233 --> 00:49:35,693 When someone gives you a Christmas gift, a birthday gift of some 766 00:49:35,693 --> 00:49:37,403 money, that's where it goes. 767 00:49:37,403 --> 00:49:38,573 And you let that grow. 768 00:49:38,969 --> 00:49:43,079 It compounds and compound interest as Ben Franklin has said is one 769 00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:48,119 of the most, uh, amazing, uh, scientific phenomenon on the planet. 770 00:49:49,409 --> 00:49:54,359 Uh, it, it is, it's really cool 'cause it grows and what you want to shift 771 00:49:54,359 --> 00:50:00,209 from is trading your time for money and having your money make money for 772 00:50:00,209 --> 00:50:03,659 you it's really kind of like a mind. 773 00:50:04,473 --> 00:50:08,902 messes with your mind to think that way, that, if you've invested, well, you 774 00:50:08,902 --> 00:50:13,822 could be on vacation, spent a bunch of money on a really nice vacation and you 775 00:50:13,822 --> 00:50:18,892 could have made more than the cost of your vacation while you're vacationing 776 00:50:19,252 --> 00:50:24,862 because the stock market went up and, you know, you, you had some success there. 777 00:50:25,732 --> 00:50:30,742 you don't have to be super smart, super, um, nerdy about it. 778 00:50:30,772 --> 00:50:33,772 You can, there's a ton of great books out there. 779 00:50:34,244 --> 00:50:36,734 and, and maybe we could talk about some of those books that people could 780 00:50:36,734 --> 00:50:37,964 read and put those in show notes. 781 00:50:37,964 --> 00:50:38,264 But, 782 00:50:38,861 --> 00:50:44,031 Brad Frost: Mm hmm. 783 00:50:44,031 --> 00:50:48,703 Yeah. 784 00:50:48,703 --> 00:50:50,503 Aarron Walter: you need to be transferring that. 785 00:50:51,193 --> 00:50:55,003 Out into some total stock market index. 786 00:50:55,393 --> 00:51:01,978 So you don't have a large chunk of your personal wealth in a single place. 787 00:51:01,978 --> 00:51:06,319 Cause if that company starts to lose value, you're in trouble. 788 00:51:06,589 --> 00:51:07,699 You're in, you're in big trouble. 789 00:51:08,062 --> 00:51:11,542 Getting good at money is an essential skill at life. 790 00:51:11,812 --> 00:51:15,532 Uh, you don't have to be a hedge fund manager, but you do have 791 00:51:15,532 --> 00:51:21,472 to know how to invest and how to systematically transition from 792 00:51:21,472 --> 00:51:23,002 trading your time for money. 793 00:51:23,272 --> 00:51:25,882 Because there's gonna come a time in your life where you don't want 794 00:51:25,882 --> 00:51:30,112 to do that, someone wants you to do something you don't want to do. 795 00:51:30,112 --> 00:51:32,182 And you want to have enough fu money. 796 00:51:32,692 --> 00:51:37,192 That is, I want you to do this thing that you really goes against your, your 797 00:51:37,192 --> 00:51:39,352 morals, your values, your interests. 798 00:51:40,177 --> 00:51:43,027 And you wanna be able to say Fu I'm not gonna do it. 799 00:51:43,027 --> 00:51:43,657 I want to go over 800 00:51:43,724 --> 00:51:44,054 Brad Frost: Yeah, 801 00:51:44,437 --> 00:51:45,727 Aarron Walter: I wanna take six months. 802 00:51:45,757 --> 00:51:48,307 Even it's like, takes six months to find a new job. 803 00:51:48,397 --> 00:51:49,327 That's fu money. 804 00:51:49,387 --> 00:51:52,597 That's not like an insane amount of money, but it is fu money that gives 805 00:51:52,597 --> 00:51:55,387 you the time and space to reconsider. 806 00:51:56,347 --> 00:52:00,397 that is what everybody should and can build. 807 00:52:00,644 --> 00:52:01,964 if they're smart about this. 808 00:52:02,941 --> 00:52:04,091 Brad Frost: no, that's, that's great. 809 00:52:04,101 --> 00:52:08,671 There's, I feel like there's so much great advice locked up into that. 810 00:52:09,245 --> 00:52:13,595 coming back to, I think that I really like how you led it. 811 00:52:14,585 --> 00:52:22,615 Money is a tool, and that tool can be pointed at things and 812 00:52:22,615 --> 00:52:25,975 utilized to accomplish things. 813 00:52:26,745 --> 00:52:31,005 I think that that, that for me really sort of shifted. 814 00:52:31,420 --> 00:52:36,360 My relationship with money is like once I started to to realize that because 815 00:52:36,940 --> 00:52:46,920 up until That was was kind of presented to me it was You know, well, I'm, I'm 816 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:53,110 working, I, I know I, I want to make as much money as possible because like you, 817 00:52:53,110 --> 00:52:59,090 it's like I, I grew up, you know, in, in a certain house with, you know, punctuated 818 00:52:59,090 --> 00:53:00,800 by layoffs and all sorts of stuff. 819 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,610 So there's, there's the, the scarcity mindset that kind of comes with that. 820 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:11,400 And so it's just like, well, obviously I'm going to go and I'm going to try 821 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:18,930 to make as much as I can without giving it too much like extra thought around 822 00:53:18,930 --> 00:53:20,860 all like well What's all this for? 823 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,270 Like what why exactly am I doing this? 824 00:53:24,270 --> 00:53:25,970 I know it's a good idea 825 00:53:26,073 --> 00:53:28,533 Aarron Walter: oh, I think that's, that's a great question, a great 826 00:53:28,533 --> 00:53:29,733 question, right, right there. 827 00:53:29,973 --> 00:53:31,533 What's money for? 828 00:53:31,623 --> 00:53:32,163 What is 829 00:53:32,380 --> 00:53:32,690 Brad Frost: Yeah, 830 00:53:33,538 --> 00:53:36,808 Aarron Walter: work is for generating money, but work is also for other things. 831 00:53:36,808 --> 00:53:37,558 It's for learning. 832 00:53:37,558 --> 00:53:38,668 It's for connection. 833 00:53:38,668 --> 00:53:41,068 It's for feeling useful. 834 00:53:41,635 --> 00:53:42,305 Brad Frost: yeah, 835 00:53:42,418 --> 00:53:43,258 Aarron Walter: a super activity. 836 00:53:43,258 --> 00:53:43,348 It 837 00:53:43,465 --> 00:53:43,905 Brad Frost: yeah 838 00:53:44,008 --> 00:53:44,368 Aarron Walter: be. 839 00:53:44,788 --> 00:53:46,168 And what is money for? 840 00:53:46,228 --> 00:53:48,328 Uh, it's for protection. 841 00:53:48,787 --> 00:53:51,787 it is for opportunity it's for growth. 842 00:53:52,316 --> 00:53:58,376 it is for a few things, but, another thing that people get very confused by is. 843 00:53:58,665 --> 00:54:04,365 having outward signs of wealth uh, you know, consumption, consumption 844 00:54:04,365 --> 00:54:06,285 is wealth, consumption is not wealth. 845 00:54:07,245 --> 00:54:10,485 you know, you hear people say this, this phrase, like how can they afford it? 846 00:54:11,235 --> 00:54:12,855 Chances are they can't afford it. 847 00:54:14,895 --> 00:54:15,015 You 848 00:54:15,107 --> 00:54:16,017 Brad Frost: Very true. 849 00:54:16,155 --> 00:54:16,845 Aarron Walter: credit. 850 00:54:16,875 --> 00:54:18,975 They're paying a mortgage. 851 00:54:18,975 --> 00:54:19,965 They're paying a note. 852 00:54:20,025 --> 00:54:24,675 They're paying, you know, some, some bill on a regular basis. 853 00:54:25,035 --> 00:54:26,445 And they are consuming. 854 00:54:26,834 --> 00:54:29,894 You don't want consumption to drive your life. 855 00:54:29,894 --> 00:54:32,594 You want to have a solid foundation. 856 00:54:33,134 --> 00:54:37,244 Um, and when you do have that solid foundation and you've got enough FU money 857 00:54:37,244 --> 00:54:41,354 and you've got runway and you're clear on your values and you've got a healthy 858 00:54:41,354 --> 00:54:43,514 relationship to money and how you use it 859 00:54:44,076 --> 00:54:44,346 Brad Frost: Yeah 860 00:54:44,924 --> 00:54:47,534 Aarron Walter: achieving that satisfaction and that safety in your life. 861 00:54:47,924 --> 00:54:50,684 Hey, and you want to consume and buy a thing. 862 00:54:51,554 --> 00:54:52,094 okay. 863 00:54:52,484 --> 00:54:56,564 But also be aware of, like, what things bring you joy. 864 00:54:57,104 --> 00:55:00,524 So you and me, I think we'd probably agree, like, buying a good instrument, 865 00:55:00,644 --> 00:55:03,644 it brings me joy, 'cause it's a thing that brings me growth, and 866 00:55:03,644 --> 00:55:06,704 I'll have it throughout my entire life, and I'll give it to my kids. 867 00:55:07,306 --> 00:55:07,626 Brad Frost: Yeah 868 00:55:07,754 --> 00:55:08,564 Aarron Walter: a good spend. 869 00:55:08,984 --> 00:55:14,864 For me, like, a car I think of it more as like taking it from point 870 00:55:14,864 --> 00:55:18,674 A to point B. If you buy something brand new, it loses value right away. 871 00:55:19,034 --> 00:55:22,814 A car to me, just, I feel, I feel bad. 872 00:55:23,204 --> 00:55:25,484 Like I'm losing money on that thing. 873 00:55:25,544 --> 00:55:29,654 And I've tried buying something that felt really cool. 874 00:55:29,784 --> 00:55:31,254 and it just stressed me out. 875 00:55:31,254 --> 00:55:34,914 I'd rather have a cheap pickup that I can do stuff. 876 00:55:35,041 --> 00:55:35,671 Brad Frost: Yeah. 877 00:55:35,844 --> 00:55:37,764 Aarron Walter: dings it, I'm like, yeah, it's all right. 878 00:55:38,091 --> 00:55:38,431 Brad Frost: Yep. 879 00:55:39,771 --> 00:55:40,091 And I 880 00:55:41,621 --> 00:55:43,471 to, to reflect on that. 881 00:55:43,471 --> 00:55:44,761 And you, you said it earlier. 882 00:55:44,761 --> 00:55:48,001 It's like the, the, you know, what are your values? 883 00:55:48,021 --> 00:55:51,721 And it's like, that needs to come first. 884 00:55:53,111 --> 00:55:58,541 Because a lot of times it's, again, it's just that kind of blind, just 885 00:55:58,541 --> 00:56:02,451 kind of myopic or shallow mode of, well, I got to earn money. 886 00:56:03,511 --> 00:56:08,551 And without a value system to, to really sort of undergird that 887 00:56:08,701 --> 00:56:13,681 endeavor, you can find yourself in weird territory real quick, right? 888 00:56:14,161 --> 00:56:20,381 And, and that, and that also translates to, yeah, you just, here's the Joneses, 889 00:56:20,381 --> 00:56:23,911 and you're, you're buying the same things because you see everybody else doing that. 890 00:56:23,911 --> 00:56:31,391 And I feel like having that solid sense of self, a solid value system, then. 891 00:56:31,876 --> 00:56:39,186 Affords the idea of in coupling that value system with money as a tool, you 892 00:56:39,186 --> 00:56:48,146 then have this really nice equation of being able to use money to pursue 893 00:56:48,146 --> 00:56:55,146 things that, you know, uh, embody and, and advance your, your values. 894 00:56:55,959 --> 00:56:56,109 Aarron Walter: And 895 00:56:56,286 --> 00:56:56,646 Brad Frost: Yeah. 896 00:56:56,829 --> 00:57:01,839 Aarron Walter: a simple way to do this is, um, if you can articulate your values, 897 00:57:01,959 --> 00:57:11,709 um, maybe your values are around, and learning and growth, for example, create 898 00:57:11,709 --> 00:57:15,399 a budget those are your budget buckets. 899 00:57:16,599 --> 00:57:21,489 So you align your money to your values, uh, in that way. 900 00:57:21,489 --> 00:57:27,159 So when you say like, I've got 150 this month for learning, got 901 00:57:27,249 --> 00:57:29,379 a hundred dollars for adventure. 902 00:57:29,979 --> 00:57:35,049 Or we're gonna start saving monthly for one big adventure every year. 903 00:57:35,109 --> 00:57:40,239 And that's gonna give us growth learning and family time 904 00:57:40,239 --> 00:57:41,859 or a couple time, whatever. 905 00:57:42,759 --> 00:57:46,329 Um, that's a great way to do it where you can start to articulate it. 906 00:57:46,329 --> 00:57:51,669 And then you've got the stuff that's like life's operating system of, I 907 00:57:51,669 --> 00:57:53,739 gotta pay for my cell phone bill. 908 00:57:53,739 --> 00:57:56,349 I've gotta pay for electricity, et cetera, but 909 00:57:56,421 --> 00:57:56,751 Brad Frost: Yeah. 910 00:57:56,859 --> 00:58:00,939 Aarron Walter: kind of a different type of bucket than This growth stuff. 911 00:58:01,981 --> 00:58:06,956 Brad Frost: I. Right. 912 00:58:06,956 --> 00:58:11,611 Right. 913 00:58:11,709 --> 00:58:15,279 Aarron Walter: bring me joy or get me closer to my life's goals? 914 00:58:15,699 --> 00:58:16,719 Probably not. 915 00:58:17,107 --> 00:58:18,027 Brad Frost: I love that. 916 00:58:18,037 --> 00:58:24,057 It's like you're making the value system explicit and it's that becomes 917 00:58:24,127 --> 00:58:26,057 like any good sort of design endeavor. 918 00:58:26,057 --> 00:58:28,137 It's like, here's this like kind of measurable. 919 00:58:28,827 --> 00:58:30,667 It's tangible. 920 00:58:30,667 --> 00:58:31,597 You could see it. 921 00:58:31,627 --> 00:58:32,957 You could work towards it. 922 00:58:32,957 --> 00:58:37,042 You could you could sort of evaluate how you're doing, getting, 923 00:58:37,342 --> 00:58:39,772 are we close or are we far away? 924 00:58:39,882 --> 00:58:42,822 It gives you kind of a lens into it. 925 00:58:42,832 --> 00:58:43,772 That's, that's great. 926 00:58:44,178 --> 00:58:44,418 Aarron Walter: it can 927 00:58:44,525 --> 00:58:44,995 Brad Frost: yeah, go 928 00:58:45,018 --> 00:58:49,698 Aarron Walter: you freedom too there, uh, in ways that we might not expect. 929 00:58:50,136 --> 00:58:55,236 I, at one point was scrutinizing my spending on audio books. 930 00:58:55,236 --> 00:58:57,516 I really, like, I just love audio books. 931 00:58:58,326 --> 00:59:02,136 I was like, man, I'm spending this subscription over here. 932 00:59:02,136 --> 00:59:08,106 I have two subscriptions for audiobooks I was going through so many and I couldn't 933 00:59:08,106 --> 00:59:12,996 get 'em all at the library so and I thought well this is actually a good 934 00:59:13,086 --> 00:59:17,706 way to spend my money because it aligns with my values so I'm okay with that 935 00:59:18,053 --> 00:59:18,293 Brad Frost: ahead. 936 00:59:18,353 --> 00:59:18,873 Beautiful. 937 00:59:18,906 --> 00:59:23,106 Aarron Walter: money over here on clothing or I'll spend less money 938 00:59:23,213 --> 00:59:23,523 Brad Frost: Yeah, 939 00:59:24,201 --> 00:59:24,771 Aarron Walter: I don't know. 940 00:59:25,041 --> 00:59:25,821 Restaurants. 941 00:59:26,143 --> 00:59:26,523 Brad Frost: yeah, 942 00:59:26,721 --> 00:59:29,871 Aarron Walter: you know, one of those things that can get some value outta that. 943 00:59:29,871 --> 00:59:30,441 That's great. 944 00:59:30,441 --> 00:59:33,141 And that can align to your value system to a certain degree. 945 00:59:33,141 --> 00:59:38,622 But it is one of those things that it's an expense that, it doesn't pay back a ton. 946 00:59:38,859 --> 00:59:44,169 Brad Frost: so yesterday I, um, met with these people, never met before, 947 00:59:44,169 --> 00:59:49,839 but, uh, connected and played music with them, which was really fun. 948 00:59:49,839 --> 00:59:55,471 They have a band and, I went into this house in, in Pittsburgh, which is like 949 00:59:55,471 --> 01:00:03,427 a total Pittsburgh house, but he, he's a bit younger, really kinetic guy, raccoons 950 01:00:03,427 --> 01:00:08,617 living in the attic water water damage like throughout the practice space and 951 01:00:08,617 --> 01:00:14,687 stuff, but it was great like just just real stuff a guy clearly loves music and 952 01:00:15,172 --> 01:00:23,252 We, we jammed for a while and then we kind of went in to a living room to listen to 953 01:00:23,372 --> 01:00:27,482 a record and he had this like big record collection and he was talking about 954 01:00:27,482 --> 01:00:31,592 how he went to a show the prior night at this, this cool space that is like 955 01:00:31,602 --> 01:00:33,832 kind of part venue, part record store. 956 01:00:34,272 --> 01:00:41,622 It's like, man, he's like, I, it's like, I spent 60 on these records. 957 01:00:41,897 --> 01:00:46,357 but then for the next like half hour, I just watched this guy as he was 958 01:00:46,647 --> 01:00:50,607 lighting up going through the album art and reading the liner notes and 959 01:00:50,887 --> 01:00:54,807 connecting the dots of this drummer played on this and also played over 960 01:00:54,817 --> 01:00:56,637 here on this other record that he had. 961 01:00:58,507 --> 01:01:05,127 And, but he, he kind of was repeating this, Oh God, this was like 60 bucks. 962 01:01:05,157 --> 01:01:10,387 And, you know, dudes living in a, in a place where, you know, 60 963 01:01:10,387 --> 01:01:13,877 bucks could be spent, you know, repairing the roof or whatever. 964 01:01:14,127 --> 01:01:18,167 But at the same time, I'm like, Dude, that seems like money very well spent. 965 01:01:18,207 --> 01:01:23,183 Like you, you seem to This, this gives you a lot of life, right? 966 01:01:23,213 --> 01:01:27,993 Like this is not just like a conspicuous consumption and sure. 967 01:01:27,993 --> 01:01:30,663 Like there's a, there's a sweet spot or there's a balance. 968 01:01:30,663 --> 01:01:36,243 So you want to be responsible with it, but it's like material pursuit 969 01:01:36,523 --> 01:01:42,613 is, is connecting with what I saw pretty clearly is like this core. 970 01:01:43,153 --> 01:01:46,843 value that he has, which is this deep love of music. 971 01:01:47,233 --> 01:01:49,193 So it's like, yeah, that seems like money well spent. 972 01:01:49,633 --> 01:01:51,380 It seems like money well spent. 973 01:01:51,380 --> 01:01:51,933 Well, 974 01:01:52,071 --> 01:01:53,961 Aarron Walter: doesn't destroy the record collection or 975 01:01:54,083 --> 01:01:54,333 Brad Frost: right. 976 01:01:54,351 --> 01:01:57,591 Aarron Walter: the raccoons eat the records, then you not 977 01:01:57,753 --> 01:01:58,463 Brad Frost: This is true. 978 01:01:58,693 --> 01:01:59,473 This is true. 979 01:01:59,623 --> 01:02:00,043 Yeah. 980 01:02:00,111 --> 01:02:00,261 Aarron Walter: and. 981 01:02:00,981 --> 01:02:01,611 fix the roof. 982 01:02:03,731 --> 01:02:06,111 Brad Frost: maybe like pulling all of this together. 983 01:02:06,231 --> 01:02:06,691 Right. 984 01:02:07,201 --> 01:02:12,291 It's like, we've covered like, There, there's curiosity, there's pursuit, 985 01:02:12,331 --> 01:02:16,651 there's, there's creativity, there's, there's being sort of intentional 986 01:02:16,651 --> 01:02:21,921 and tweaking knobs and, and pursuing these, these super activities that 987 01:02:21,961 --> 01:02:26,111 allow you to get fulfillment out of multiple dimensions out of life. 988 01:02:26,871 --> 01:02:31,221 And like that all needs to be paid for, right? 989 01:02:31,288 --> 01:02:37,218 And having really sort of prioritizing that, 990 01:02:37,409 --> 01:02:44,699 that relationship with money, setting up some solid foundations don't require, 991 01:02:45,599 --> 01:02:48,829 like you said, like you don't have to become a hedge fund manager, like a 992 01:02:48,839 --> 01:02:52,869 lot of times it's just like kind of like working with a good professional. 993 01:02:53,669 --> 01:02:57,319 Get it, get things set up, get some clarity, get your head around, like 994 01:02:57,319 --> 01:02:59,299 what your actual operating expenses are. 995 01:02:59,549 --> 01:03:03,389 That for me was like a huge freeing moment. 996 01:03:03,399 --> 01:03:05,639 Like you were saying, there's the cell phone bill. 997 01:03:05,639 --> 01:03:06,749 There's the utility bills. 998 01:03:06,749 --> 01:03:11,469 Like, do you actually know what you're like general monthly? 999 01:03:11,634 --> 01:03:17,484 Expenditures are and that gives you a good idea of like how much you need to earn 1000 01:03:17,494 --> 01:03:23,744 in order to support that lifestyle and it took me a long time to arrive at that. 1001 01:03:23,744 --> 01:03:27,604 It was like a multi year process of sort of chipping away at it. 1002 01:03:27,924 --> 01:03:30,904 But once I had it, then I could start going. 1003 01:03:30,904 --> 01:03:31,394 Okay. 1004 01:03:31,974 --> 01:03:35,624 I know that life costs this much money every year, which means that that's 1005 01:03:35,644 --> 01:03:42,654 how much, that's how hard I need to work every year in order to live life. 1006 01:03:43,174 --> 01:03:44,874 And that was tremendously freeing. 1007 01:03:45,124 --> 01:03:49,214 It got me out of that, like, I just need to go, I need to earn as much 1008 01:03:49,214 --> 01:03:53,314 as possible, and I need to do all these things, and I'm sacrificing my 1009 01:03:53,914 --> 01:03:56,344 well being, other aspects of my life. 1010 01:03:56,849 --> 01:04:01,859 Because I, I just feel that, born from that scarcity mindset of, 1011 01:04:01,879 --> 01:04:04,719 of just how I was raised, and I think a lot of people are in that 1012 01:04:04,719 --> 01:04:08,359 position, not having that clarity. 1013 01:04:08,669 --> 01:04:12,499 Being able to articulate this stuff, getting your hands around it is 1014 01:04:12,499 --> 01:04:20,019 such an important thing because it allows you to, to, to, yeah, yeah. 1015 01:04:20,319 --> 01:04:23,779 And then from there, then you could start being deliberate. 1016 01:04:24,219 --> 01:04:27,209 Like you said, like, it's like those, those buckets and stuff. 1017 01:04:27,209 --> 01:04:32,899 It's like a, a great, I think that that's like a fantastic exercise. 1018 01:04:33,209 --> 01:04:39,369 And I think like, like the, the first step in the journey is a lot of times 1019 01:04:39,369 --> 01:04:40,879 just like kind of, yeah, rounding. 1020 01:04:41,364 --> 01:04:45,014 rounding things up and just getting your heads around things and there's 1021 01:04:45,014 --> 01:04:49,714 obviously kind of just that exercise in general often brings to life It's like 1022 01:04:49,724 --> 01:04:56,114 oh, yeah, here's these weird subscriptions or these things that keep popping up 1023 01:04:56,144 --> 01:05:01,774 that I could probably just nuke and and Not miss him at all or whatever. 1024 01:05:01,774 --> 01:05:06,134 So, so there's kind of like immediate value that comes from it, but 1025 01:05:06,134 --> 01:05:10,814 there's like that exercise is the first step in this sort of broader. 1026 01:05:11,096 --> 01:05:14,246 Aarron Walter: yeah, I think there's a theme in each of the topics we've 1027 01:05:14,246 --> 01:05:20,606 covered here, which is the examined life, the idea of looking at one's 1028 01:05:20,606 --> 01:05:23,096 life carefully, every aspect it. 1029 01:05:23,426 --> 01:05:27,989 Not taking it for granted, asking questions like what does it cost to 1030 01:05:27,989 --> 01:05:32,009 live the way that I, I live or I want to live and are there compromises 1031 01:05:32,009 --> 01:05:33,719 or ways I can turn the dials here? 1032 01:05:34,289 --> 01:05:36,479 Um, how shall I live? 1033 01:05:36,479 --> 01:05:37,619 What are my values? 1034 01:05:37,619 --> 01:05:39,599 What are, what are things are most important? 1035 01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:41,909 And then how can I integrate that into? 1036 01:05:42,344 --> 01:05:46,154 My budget, my day-to-day decisions, my long-term thinking, 1037 01:05:46,844 --> 01:05:49,364 um, what does it mean to live? 1038 01:05:49,394 --> 01:05:53,744 What, what does it mean to be a human and what is the human experience? 1039 01:05:53,744 --> 01:05:59,084 And how do I think about my life, uh, on a greater continuum other 1040 01:05:59,084 --> 01:06:03,734 than just today or this year or these years that I've been on this planet? 1041 01:06:04,664 --> 01:06:06,944 all these are different stages of. 1042 01:06:07,814 --> 01:06:13,484 curious, discovering new things, and, um, understanding how all this 1043 01:06:13,484 --> 01:06:15,194 stuff fits together, 'cause it does. 1044 01:06:15,636 --> 01:06:17,066 Brad Frost: yeah, I love it. 1045 01:06:17,136 --> 01:06:17,616 I love it. 1046 01:06:17,936 --> 01:06:21,446 You brought up something right there as you're recapping it, that 1047 01:06:21,446 --> 01:06:23,126 I think is a really important thing. 1048 01:06:23,126 --> 01:06:28,006 That is, that is one of the other things that I wanted to talk to you 1049 01:06:28,006 --> 01:06:29,996 about because I think that it was. 1050 01:06:30,556 --> 01:06:37,276 It was through you that I first heard the terms seasons of life, 1051 01:06:37,909 --> 01:06:38,199 Aarron Walter: Yeah, 1052 01:06:38,686 --> 01:06:46,166 Brad Frost: and I don't know where that came from, but I internalized that in 1053 01:06:46,176 --> 01:06:52,946 my own life, and as I've kind of like experienced some pretty dramatic chapters 1054 01:06:52,946 --> 01:06:58,646 or seasons of my life, everything you just said, kind of recapping that, it's 1055 01:06:58,656 --> 01:07:04,576 so important to say, Hey, This, all of those things, all of those questions 1056 01:07:04,576 --> 01:07:08,086 need to be re evaluated, all the time. 1057 01:07:08,446 --> 01:07:15,006 All the time, because your priorities change on the daily, but certainly 1058 01:07:15,006 --> 01:07:18,946 like year over year, certainly as like big milestones happen, or like, 1059 01:07:18,956 --> 01:07:22,936 you know, you have a kid, you lose a parent, you lose a job, you, whatever, 1060 01:07:22,936 --> 01:07:25,376 it's like, all of those scenes. 1061 01:07:26,366 --> 01:07:26,786 Right? 1062 01:07:26,826 --> 01:07:32,156 Require that, that revisiting of all of these things and 1063 01:07:32,156 --> 01:07:33,416 that's the journey, right? 1064 01:07:33,416 --> 01:07:37,956 Like that's the journey that we're all on and it's kind of coming back 1065 01:07:37,956 --> 01:07:41,266 to that like Can we arrive at these? 1066 01:07:41,876 --> 01:07:47,626 Truths or answers to these questions the answer is no because time marches on the 1067 01:07:47,626 --> 01:07:54,401 terrain shifts from underneath us And our time, our priorities, our values, 1068 01:07:54,411 --> 01:08:00,981 how we spend our money, et cetera, et cetera, I'll need to change with that and. 1069 01:08:01,094 --> 01:08:01,184 Aarron Walter: the 1070 01:08:01,331 --> 01:08:01,971 Brad Frost: And it's, 1071 01:08:02,264 --> 01:08:02,654 Aarron Walter: us. 1072 01:08:03,471 --> 01:08:04,261 Brad Frost: a hundred percent. 1073 01:08:04,701 --> 01:08:08,261 So, so it's like, it's like all of those things that we've 1074 01:08:08,281 --> 01:08:10,261 talked about are, are important. 1075 01:08:10,831 --> 01:08:16,591 And then there's this other axis that is time, which, which says like 1076 01:08:17,041 --> 01:08:23,741 compartmentalize all of that and, and plot it along the, the, the time axis. 1077 01:08:24,824 --> 01:08:29,144 Aarron Walter: Yeah, humans are not very good at time continuity. 1078 01:08:29,174 --> 01:08:34,004 You sort of see life right now and think, this is the way it's always been. 1079 01:08:34,814 --> 01:08:38,024 actually it was different because, you know, I was different and 1080 01:08:38,024 --> 01:08:41,174 the circumstances were different 10 years, ago, 20 years ago, 1081 01:08:41,894 --> 01:08:43,274 a hundred years ago, how. 1082 01:08:43,364 --> 01:08:44,324 People lived. 1083 01:08:44,324 --> 01:08:45,284 It's very different. 1084 01:08:45,284 --> 01:08:48,704 There's, there's a different continuity, but seasons of life to be 1085 01:08:48,704 --> 01:08:54,479 able to think forward and backwards in your life, um, is really great. 1086 01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:59,189 And, and I, there's an exercise we can do where we can look back and say, what was 1087 01:08:59,189 --> 01:09:01,679 the theme of these decades of my life? 1088 01:09:01,739 --> 01:09:06,479 Is there a theme of what kind of transformations I went through? 1089 01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,659 What kinds of things I learned, what things I struggled with? 1090 01:09:10,259 --> 01:09:12,899 Um, and then how did that change? 1091 01:09:13,169 --> 01:09:17,039 From decade to decade and then as you approach a new decade to 1092 01:09:17,039 --> 01:09:21,839 look forward and say, here's what I want this decade to be about. 1093 01:09:21,839 --> 01:09:23,429 This is what I wanna focus on. 1094 01:09:24,209 --> 01:09:28,679 But, uh, there's there's broader, you know, seasons are multiple 1095 01:09:28,679 --> 01:09:32,219 decades where, you know, there's a pa passage of your life where 1096 01:09:32,219 --> 01:09:35,099 you're in the building of skills. 1097 01:09:36,104 --> 01:09:41,924 of foundations like maybe you know you're, you're you're getting a house you're uh, 1098 01:09:42,044 --> 01:09:46,664 finding your, your partner you're maybe building a family and you're building 1099 01:09:46,664 --> 01:09:51,134 a career and trying to build that nest egg this this is all like foundational 1100 01:09:51,134 --> 01:09:53,624 stuff and then there's this season where. 1101 01:09:53,954 --> 01:09:57,044 Your kids start to grow up and be a little bit more autonomous 1102 01:09:57,434 --> 01:10:01,244 and they're, this, maybe you're thinking about things differently. 1103 01:10:01,244 --> 01:10:04,514 Maybe you're thinking about what do I really need at this point? 1104 01:10:04,514 --> 01:10:05,294 What does it mean? 1105 01:10:05,324 --> 01:10:06,734 What's my relationship with work? 1106 01:10:06,734 --> 01:10:07,454 Is that different? 1107 01:10:07,454 --> 01:10:08,984 Do I work less? 1108 01:10:09,014 --> 01:10:09,734 Do I work? 1109 01:10:10,604 --> 01:10:15,014 uh, You know, in a totally different career, it's a very typical thing. 1110 01:10:15,014 --> 01:10:20,324 It's, uh, common for in the United States for adults to experience three 1111 01:10:20,624 --> 01:10:22,574 distinct passages of their career. 1112 01:10:22,814 --> 01:10:26,534 It is normal to depart one thing and go somewhere else. 1113 01:10:26,774 --> 01:10:27,524 And you can do that. 1114 01:10:27,524 --> 01:10:28,094 That's okay. 1115 01:10:28,094 --> 01:10:29,834 That's, that's perfectly fine to do. 1116 01:10:30,734 --> 01:10:32,774 thinking about these seasons, uh. 1117 01:10:33,614 --> 01:10:39,824 it relates to your money, the foundations of your life, uh, your career, uh, 1118 01:10:39,824 --> 01:10:41,594 your interests and your values. 1119 01:10:42,074 --> 01:10:46,724 Um, if we can expand our perspective beyond 1120 01:10:47,264 --> 01:10:47,894 today, 1121 01:10:48,496 --> 01:10:48,986 Brad Frost: Yeah, 1122 01:10:49,064 --> 01:10:50,774 Aarron Walter: can, we can live a better life. 1123 01:10:50,976 --> 01:10:56,336 Brad Frost: but but to bring it to bring that perspective into the present and 1124 01:10:56,336 --> 01:11:01,396 to cultivate presence like that, I think that that's everything you just said is 1125 01:11:01,516 --> 01:11:09,076 true and but to do that to point to the present moment where you're in your car 1126 01:11:09,476 --> 01:11:16,226 With your 14 year old headed to jiu jitsu and you're able to acknowledge That like 1127 01:11:16,246 --> 01:11:22,286 this is a gift because one day he won't be in the car with me because he'll be it 1128 01:11:22,364 --> 01:11:23,234 Aarron Walter: a half years. 1129 01:11:23,316 --> 01:11:23,896 Brad Frost: Yeah, 1130 01:11:23,954 --> 01:11:24,554 Aarron Walter: and a half years. 1131 01:11:24,554 --> 01:11:24,914 So the 1132 01:11:25,206 --> 01:11:25,726 Brad Frost: right. 1133 01:11:25,784 --> 01:11:29,204 Aarron Walter: about what trips we want to go on, what skills 1134 01:11:29,204 --> 01:11:31,304 I want for him to build because 1135 01:11:31,706 --> 01:11:32,226 Brad Frost: Yeah 1136 01:11:32,564 --> 01:11:34,304 Aarron Walter: the day when he leaves the house. 1137 01:11:34,946 --> 01:11:35,406 Brad Frost: Mm hmm. 1138 01:11:35,474 --> 01:11:35,894 Aarron Walter: own. 1139 01:11:35,894 --> 01:11:37,004 And what does he need? 1140 01:11:37,004 --> 01:11:39,344 What has to be in his bag of skills 1141 01:11:39,726 --> 01:11:40,196 Brad Frost: Yeah. 1142 01:11:40,724 --> 01:11:45,854 Aarron Walter: uh, an autonomous human being who's safe and, you know, can, 1143 01:11:45,886 --> 01:11:46,166 Brad Frost: Yeah. 1144 01:11:46,214 --> 01:11:46,934 Aarron Walter: successful. 1145 01:11:47,174 --> 01:11:52,394 I've gotta consciously invest and support my children right now 1146 01:11:52,399 --> 01:11:54,314 because I gotta plan for that day. 1147 01:11:54,734 --> 01:12:00,544 Brad Frost: but all all the while I think it's like the so yes to all of 1148 01:12:00,554 --> 01:12:05,259 that, but then there's like also like a I don't know if you experienced that 1149 01:12:05,259 --> 01:12:09,909 phenomenon where like, And this is, you know, where people get anxiety from 1150 01:12:09,909 --> 01:12:14,329 is like worry for like the future or whatever It's like if you do that too much 1151 01:12:14,359 --> 01:12:17,819 you lose You lose the presence, right? 1152 01:12:17,919 --> 01:12:22,371 And, and, to be able to do that, that's, that's just good planning, that's good, 1153 01:12:22,371 --> 01:12:25,031 like, whatever, you're, you're, you're sort of building this stuff, but, like, 1154 01:12:25,031 --> 01:12:30,621 to really recognize that these moments we have are finite, our lives are finite, 1155 01:12:30,849 --> 01:12:31,389 Aarron Walter: That's right. 1156 01:12:31,761 --> 01:12:36,031 Brad Frost: of life, these, the, the time with the people in our life is all finite. 1157 01:12:36,351 --> 01:12:45,106 If you're able to translate that into presence and gratitude, then there it 1158 01:12:45,106 --> 01:12:50,536 is, like to really realize that that it's like, this is a special moment. 1159 01:12:50,836 --> 01:12:52,396 It's not going to happen again. 1160 01:12:52,826 --> 01:12:57,391 You know, hopefully we have lots and lots of moments with, you know, our, you 1161 01:12:57,391 --> 01:13:03,096 know, kids and the people in our lives, but like, know that that finite moment. 1162 01:13:03,301 --> 01:13:04,101 is, is 1163 01:13:07,571 --> 01:13:09,561 like, just be present for it. 1164 01:13:09,571 --> 01:13:15,331 And, and I think that like what everything that we've talked about, I think are, 1165 01:13:15,371 --> 01:13:22,961 are sort of can be then kind of funneled into this just very deliberate exercise. 1166 01:13:23,536 --> 01:13:29,466 That is just like kind of showing up and being present and having, having a real 1167 01:13:29,476 --> 01:13:35,956 sense of understanding that of like what this all is, which is like, oh, yeah, 1168 01:13:35,956 --> 01:13:41,416 we're here, we're together and we know that that this is a good thing and what 1169 01:13:41,556 --> 01:13:45,656 a gift it is that we're able to spend this time together, have these kinds of 1170 01:13:45,656 --> 01:13:48,356 conversations, do these kinds of things. 1171 01:13:49,171 --> 01:13:54,611 And not be too infatuated with, with what happened before, what's to come, 1172 01:13:55,121 --> 01:14:00,501 to consider all of that, and, and point it, point both of those things, right, 1173 01:14:00,511 --> 01:14:04,931 the past and the future, like, into the present moment, and, and to, you kind 1174 01:14:04,931 --> 01:14:09,528 of supercharge it, like, that's, that's how I see it, at least, um, people have 1175 01:14:09,528 --> 01:14:13,408 said it a lot smarter than I just did, but it's like, there, there is a way 1176 01:14:13,408 --> 01:14:18,788 to just, like, kind of cultivate the presence and the gratitude Based on all 1177 01:14:18,788 --> 01:14:22,898 of these other, there's all these like, just the, everything you're describing, 1178 01:14:22,898 --> 01:14:28,668 like, the, the systems and just like our models and, and value systems and 1179 01:14:28,668 --> 01:14:34,288 like all of that sort of like deliberate work provides this foundation for you 1180 01:14:34,288 --> 01:14:40,588 to ultimately like, Live in the moment and be present and be grateful for 1181 01:14:40,588 --> 01:14:46,528 this like awareness you have that that it's like, oh, yeah Like here's my life 1182 01:14:46,528 --> 01:14:51,048 and here's where I'm at and here's the people in it and just be able to enjoy it 1183 01:14:52,101 --> 01:14:56,191 Aarron Walter: When you can think forward and see how life's probably 1184 01:14:56,191 --> 01:15:04,071 gonna change pretty Just a few years, I. uh, you know, down the road. 1185 01:15:05,001 --> 01:15:07,791 It definitely brings you into the present 1186 01:15:07,918 --> 01:15:08,118 Brad Frost: Yeah, 1187 01:15:08,331 --> 01:15:11,331 Aarron Walter: and helps you like clarify what's important. 1188 01:15:11,768 --> 01:15:12,278 Brad Frost: yeah. 1189 01:15:12,618 --> 01:15:13,058 Yeah. 1190 01:15:13,281 --> 01:15:13,851 Aarron Walter: will do that. 1191 01:15:13,851 --> 01:15:17,541 But I think that, you know, there's other things in life, whether 1192 01:15:17,548 --> 01:15:17,968 Brad Frost: Yeah. 1193 01:15:18,081 --> 01:15:20,691 Aarron Walter: or not, that you, you can get that as well. 1194 01:15:21,278 --> 01:15:24,968 Brad Frost: Yeah, but it but it just it requires that that introspection and 1195 01:15:24,968 --> 01:15:29,738 I think that that that might be like a You know, maybe a good like parting 1196 01:15:29,738 --> 01:15:36,448 note for everybody is, is just like, it's like, what, what are those things? 1197 01:15:36,448 --> 01:15:40,908 Like, what are, what are your kind of bedrock kind of core values? 1198 01:15:40,948 --> 01:15:47,658 And like, how are you thinking about, you know, your life as you live 1199 01:15:47,658 --> 01:15:49,818 it and are intending to live it? 1200 01:15:50,098 --> 01:15:56,608 And how could you, you kind of use that to guide your, your day to day life 1201 01:15:56,618 --> 01:15:58,578 while building towards something that. 1202 01:15:59,013 --> 01:16:03,493 Feels good that you could fast forward a couple of decades and go. 1203 01:16:03,573 --> 01:16:10,096 Yeah, I'm glad I glad I lived my life like that versus Versus the alternative. 1204 01:16:10,106 --> 01:16:10,466 Yeah 1205 01:16:10,823 --> 01:16:11,783 Aarron Walter: it's hard to be a human. 1206 01:16:11,898 --> 01:16:12,263 We're, we're all 1207 01:16:12,335 --> 01:16:12,915 Brad Frost: It is 1208 01:16:13,073 --> 01:16:13,403 Aarron Walter: something 1209 01:16:13,585 --> 01:16:16,935 Brad Frost: it is but but it but I feel like uh feel like we cracked 1210 01:16:16,935 --> 01:16:18,515 the code here in this conversation. 1211 01:16:18,915 --> 01:16:20,895 This is good We did it. 1212 01:16:20,995 --> 01:16:21,795 We're all done 1213 01:16:22,013 --> 01:16:23,783 Aarron Walter: at the we cracked it, but we at 1214 01:16:23,910 --> 01:16:26,160 Brad Frost: But, but it's like, I think it's like, yeah, the 1215 01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:27,600 code isn't meant to be cracked. 1216 01:16:27,730 --> 01:16:27,920 Right. 1217 01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,830 I think that, I think that, that, that that's the cracking of the 1218 01:16:30,830 --> 01:16:35,330 code is, is understanding that it's, it's not, not crackable. 1219 01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:40,359 Thank you so much for, for taking the time to, to talk about this, this is like. 1220 01:16:40,704 --> 01:16:42,414 This is like a dream come true for me. 1221 01:16:42,414 --> 01:16:44,584 So thank you very much for having this. 1222 01:16:44,584 --> 01:16:50,054 This is like, these are exactly the kinds of conversations I think need 1223 01:16:50,054 --> 01:16:52,114 to be happening and often aren't. 1224 01:16:52,174 --> 01:16:56,064 So, so I really appreciate you, uh, you doing that. 1225 01:16:56,252 --> 01:16:57,872 couple things before we go. 1226 01:16:58,245 --> 01:17:02,035 where could people find you and what, what do you want to sort 1227 01:17:02,035 --> 01:17:05,965 of point people towards that, that's exciting and good for you? 1228 01:17:06,310 --> 01:17:10,120 Aarron Walter: well, my podcasts are the things that are kind of the center 1229 01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:16,870 of my universe these days, so design better podcast.com And reconsidering.org 1230 01:17:16,870 --> 01:17:22,480 reconsidering explores, how to build a life while making a living and kind of 1231 01:17:22,480 --> 01:17:24,220 what, what the good life looks like. 1232 01:17:24,700 --> 01:17:27,970 Um, so that seems very adjacent to our conversation today. 1233 01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:35,560 Design better is about the creative process and, um, finding inspiration, 1234 01:17:35,620 --> 01:17:40,150 finding out how to be a, a better designer, uh, and a creative thinker. 1235 01:17:40,150 --> 01:17:42,670 So places to learn more about me. 1236 01:17:43,112 --> 01:17:43,762 Brad Frost: Beautiful. 1237 01:17:43,822 --> 01:17:49,532 And then the last thing is, uh, what is, uh, some music that you 1238 01:17:49,542 --> 01:17:51,802 want more people to know about? 1239 01:17:52,224 --> 01:17:56,544 Aarron Walter: I am a big fan of Kamasi Washington, and we had him as 1240 01:17:56,544 --> 01:17:58,704 a guest on Design Better recently. 1241 01:17:59,994 --> 01:18:04,734 uh, I love his album, The Epic, which came out in 2017. 1242 01:18:05,544 --> 01:18:08,514 But, uh, he has a new one. 1243 01:18:08,844 --> 01:18:14,184 Kamasi Washington's new album is called Fearless Movement and it is great. 1244 01:18:14,634 --> 01:18:19,194 So if you're not familiar with him, he, uh, He plays saxophone. 1245 01:18:19,254 --> 01:18:25,284 He plays lots of different types of music, jazz and hip hop, and goes 1246 01:18:25,284 --> 01:18:26,304 in lots of different directions. 1247 01:18:26,304 --> 01:18:27,714 But he's, he's fantastic. 1248 01:18:28,266 --> 01:18:28,816 Brad Frost: Beautiful. 1249 01:18:29,126 --> 01:18:29,706 Beautiful. 1250 01:18:29,836 --> 01:18:30,256 Yeah. 1251 01:18:30,316 --> 01:18:30,976 Check it out. 1252 01:18:31,386 --> 01:18:35,856 That's, that's one of the things I also want to, to cultivate with this thing. 1253 01:18:35,856 --> 01:18:39,616 It's like, there's a lot of great music out there. 1254 01:18:39,626 --> 01:18:43,896 So I think directing people to, to some good stuff is, uh, 1255 01:18:45,469 --> 01:18:45,759 Aarron Walter: Yeah. 1256 01:18:46,691 --> 01:18:48,101 Brad Frost: Aaron, thank you so much. 1257 01:18:48,111 --> 01:18:48,531 Thank you. 1258 01:18:48,531 --> 01:18:49,031 Seriously. 1259 01:18:49,051 --> 01:18:51,221 Thank you for for being on this thing. 1260 01:18:51,221 --> 01:18:54,611 And, uh, yeah, thanks to you all for for listening.