WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:08.959 Raph: Hey friends, and welcome to the Deep Stack Podcast. 00:00:08.965 --> 00:00:10.010 I'm your host Raph. 00:00:10.459 --> 00:00:11.430 Lio: I'm your host, Lio. 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:15.860 Raph: This is the Deep Stack, the Deep Stack Podcast where we 00:00:15.860 --> 00:00:20.930 explore everything in modern and not so modern application stacks. 00:00:20.935 --> 00:00:25.509 Today we're gonna be breaking down Lio's old project Noun.ly. 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:28.619 So Lio, do you wanna tell us about Noun.ly 00:00:29.555 --> 00:00:33.725 Lio: yeah, it's a, it's a fun little project that I started while I was, 00:00:33.725 --> 00:00:36.125 uh, working at Microsoft a decade ago. 00:00:36.695 --> 00:00:37.325 Raph: Nice. 00:00:37.625 --> 00:00:44.255 Lio: in, uh, this was 2000, um, Actually more than a decade ago, like 2011. 00:00:44.675 --> 00:00:48.425 And, and Microsoft had entered with Azure there, the cloud space. 00:00:48.425 --> 00:00:52.565 And so there was a hackathon to come up with, uh, cloud projects and, 00:00:52.565 --> 00:00:57.965 and so Noun.ly is the project that I built in that hackathon and I kept 00:00:57.965 --> 00:01:00.305 building on after leaving Microsoft. 00:01:00.605 --> 00:01:04.385 Actually it started as it started@stinkybad.com 00:01:04.385 --> 00:01:05.405 and I think the URL still 00:01:05.515 --> 00:01:05.945 Raph: Excellent name. 00:01:06.645 --> 00:01:10.755 Lio: I, well, why it was funny was was a website, or is a website? 00:01:10.785 --> 00:01:15.855 It's, it's a URL shortener, but it uses nouns instead of like weird codes. 00:01:15.855 --> 00:01:16.095 Right. 00:01:16.095 --> 00:01:20.935 So Bitly and a tiny URL were very big back then, or maybe still are. 00:01:21.595 --> 00:01:27.265 And I found them frustrating, uh, to share URLs with people, uh, in, in real. 00:01:27.965 --> 00:01:29.225 They're unusable, right? 00:01:29.225 --> 00:01:34.145 Because you got a code with like eight Q p r capital seven, so it doesn't work. 00:01:34.385 --> 00:01:39.215 And so I, I had this idea of using noun only and, uh, announced using nouns. 00:01:39.220 --> 00:01:42.875 And because it was nouns, I took a domain name that was like an adjective. 00:01:42.875 --> 00:01:44.345 So everything was kind of funny. 00:01:44.345 --> 00:01:49.115 I ended up with stinky back chair, stinky horse, stinky bat, you know, uh, unknown. 00:01:49.445 --> 00:01:50.015 Raph: Yeah. 00:01:50.255 --> 00:01:54.775 Lio: Um, So I, I build that, uh, and. 00:01:55.770 --> 00:02:01.770 I build them on, uh, a very early Azure, right, the 2011 kind of Azure. 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:07.230 Interestingly, Azure was one of the first that provided platform as a service before 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:09.180 they even had infrastructure at a service. 00:02:09.185 --> 00:02:10.800 You, you didn't even have VMs yet. 00:02:11.310 --> 00:02:16.770 And so it ended up being like a Azure website, I think it was called. 00:02:16.770 --> 00:02:17.340 It was running on 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:17.970 iis. 00:02:18.760 --> 00:02:21.080 Raph: remember that, like that term. 00:02:21.780 --> 00:02:22.799 Lio: It was kind of fun. 00:02:22.799 --> 00:02:23.340 I thought. 00:02:23.340 --> 00:02:25.680 Uh, the experience was cool. 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:31.680 You, uh, you had the command line, you started a new Azure website project 00:02:31.890 --> 00:02:37.079 and there was like a dash dash GI that would give you, uh, like a get in edited 00:02:37.109 --> 00:02:40.530 folder and as well as a, a remote repo. 00:02:40.530 --> 00:02:45.120 And then any get push that you did, uh, they had their. 00:02:45.929 --> 00:02:49.410 Builder, uh, that I, I forgot what it's called. 00:02:49.410 --> 00:02:53.249 Like something with a K that would look at your files and then figure out whether 00:02:53.249 --> 00:02:56.579 it was like a Python or a, uh, C sharp. 00:02:56.670 --> 00:03:01.260 I think the initial, the first version I, I built was C Sharp, and then it 00:03:01.260 --> 00:03:05.100 would build it and, and push it and host it and, and that experience to go from, 00:03:05.799 --> 00:03:11.230 um, you know, using the command line to get a empty folder and then get, commit, 00:03:11.230 --> 00:03:13.600 get, push, and it was up and running. 00:03:14.299 --> 00:03:17.589 Uh, I think everybody was still catching up to, to that behavior, 00:03:17.649 --> 00:03:19.450 uh, to that ex deaf experience. 00:03:19.450 --> 00:03:20.679 So I, I really liked it. 00:03:21.394 --> 00:03:25.984 course, it was, it was very microsofty, you know, like, it was like C sharp, 00:03:26.314 --> 00:03:29.644 uh, only I s no, no Linux containers. 00:03:29.674 --> 00:03:35.194 Uh, so, um, so, so that was the, the first version of stinky bad. 00:03:36.124 --> 00:03:39.154 But then when I, when I left Microsoft, that's when I started using. 00:03:40.114 --> 00:03:42.154 Like more open source tools. 00:03:42.334 --> 00:03:48.274 So I, I rewrote the app and, uh, D Lang like that, that was like the, the, the 00:03:48.274 --> 00:03:49.385 thing, the language that. 00:03:49.390 --> 00:03:51.515 I used for my hobby, hobby projects. 00:03:52.214 --> 00:03:56.004 Um, and so I, I, I, I, I wanted to use that. 00:03:56.394 --> 00:04:01.464 Uh, I started using, uh, instead of, of course d if you push decodes 00:04:01.464 --> 00:04:04.254 to the, to the Azure websites, I didn't know what to do with it. 00:04:04.554 --> 00:04:10.499 So I had to build my own, uh, But then by that time, Azure websites had docker 00:04:10.559 --> 00:04:16.499 support, so you could actually, uh, it, it could, uh, host containers as well as raw, 00:04:16.684 --> 00:04:17.864 Raph: What year was that? 00:04:18.569 --> 00:04:18.989 Lio: Sorry, 00:04:19.454 --> 00:04:20.009 Raph: What year was that? 00:04:20.009 --> 00:04:22.139 That they started to support Docker containers. 00:04:22.409 --> 00:04:25.979 Lio: uh, I don't know, maybe, maybe 16 or something. 00:04:25.984 --> 00:04:27.029 2016. 00:04:27.119 --> 00:04:27.689 Raph: Okay. 00:04:27.694 --> 00:04:27.929 Yeah. 00:04:28.039 --> 00:04:30.479 Lio: I don't remember, but that was some much later. 00:04:30.989 --> 00:04:31.499 Raph: okay. 00:04:31.530 --> 00:04:32.789 Yeah, I was, I was surprised. 00:04:32.789 --> 00:04:36.119 I was like, wait, that the, the timeline, I, I, I thought it was just 00:04:36.119 --> 00:04:39.569 like maybe a, a few years after, and I was like, that's, that's impressive of 00:04:39.569 --> 00:04:41.639 the, or that, that early on the, the, 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:42.479 container train. 00:04:42.854 --> 00:04:46.724 Lio: that particular feature with Docker containers got renamed a bunch of times. 00:04:46.754 --> 00:04:47.354 Uh uh. 00:04:47.354 --> 00:04:49.734 Now it's, even now I think it's called. 00:04:50.434 --> 00:04:53.494 Uh, Azure website for Docker or something. 00:04:53.764 --> 00:04:55.534 I, I, I don't, I don't keep up with the naming, 00:04:56.224 --> 00:04:56.794 Raph: Yeah. 00:04:57.304 --> 00:05:02.374 Lio: yeah, so, so that the whole stack from Stinky Bad has been 00:05:02.374 --> 00:05:03.964 completely rewritten around that time. 00:05:03.964 --> 00:05:07.819 Like maybe five, six, um, Or two, 2016 ish. 00:05:08.209 --> 00:05:10.669 So that's when I also got the domain name, noun. 00:05:10.999 --> 00:05:11.209 Noun. 00:05:11.929 --> 00:05:15.619 Actually, that was a little earlier, I think maybe 2015, to be 00:05:15.624 --> 00:05:17.449 honest, because people liked it. 00:05:17.449 --> 00:05:19.729 You know, people started using it, uh, stinky bad. 00:05:19.729 --> 00:05:23.839 I actually got, I, I got like a bunch of emails from users that said, Hey, 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:29.239 I, I want to use, Uh, stinky on my, uh, presentation, but I, I cannot 00:05:29.239 --> 00:05:33.859 show stinky bad.com on, on at work, you know, so is there a way I can 00:05:33.859 --> 00:05:35.479 have a, a different domain name? 00:05:35.914 --> 00:05:36.604 Raph: Yeah. 00:05:37.459 --> 00:05:41.299 Lio: Um, and actually it, it was, presentations was the perfect use case 00:05:41.304 --> 00:05:48.499 because yeah, URLs in a presentation are pretty much pointless because people can't 00:05:48.504 --> 00:05:51.859 get it and they'll have to wait until you mail if, if you mail them the deck. 00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:52.774 Raph: Yeah. 00:05:53.689 --> 00:06:00.409 Lio: And so around that same time, I got the domain noun.ly as well as Noun.ly.com. 00:06:01.109 --> 00:06:07.709 And I, I added QR code, code generator so that on your slide you could put both 00:06:07.714 --> 00:06:12.299 the noun as well as the, the QR code, uh, which because the nouns are short, the 00:06:12.299 --> 00:06:17.909 QR code kind of had a, uh, didn't require very high resolution, right, because you 00:06:17.909 --> 00:06:19.679 didn't have a lot of bits to put in there. 00:06:20.144 --> 00:06:20.424 Raph: Yeah. 00:06:21.304 --> 00:06:26.044 Lio: at that time, the new, well now old, but the new 00:06:26.044 --> 00:06:28.234 stack, uh, was, uh, built right? 00:06:28.234 --> 00:06:34.564 So the backend was rewritten in D Lang using, uh, these vid, uh, web framework, 00:06:35.074 --> 00:06:36.814 which was back then was state of the art. 00:06:36.844 --> 00:06:39.814 It was like asynchronous, you know, all the, all the, the 00:06:39.814 --> 00:06:42.274 good stuff, uh, co routine. 00:06:42.874 --> 00:06:48.724 All the stuff that, you know, uh, the, the new modern web frameworks and no 00:06:48.724 --> 00:06:54.634 js, python, uh, rust, they, they all use that same kind of architecture right now. 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.464 Fived is very dated. 00:06:56.644 --> 00:07:01.454 Uh, um, but yeah, so that's what it's using now. 00:07:01.454 --> 00:07:04.124 So if you go to now, that's what it's using, it's using 00:07:04.124 --> 00:07:05.924 the fived at the backend. 00:07:06.624 --> 00:07:09.714 Uh, it, it's not using any, any front end framework. 00:07:09.714 --> 00:07:10.494 Everything is. 00:07:11.194 --> 00:07:17.314 Uh, pretty raw, uh, handwritten, uh, Java script and css. 00:07:18.014 --> 00:07:23.444 I, I think it, it was using, what's the Twitter CSS framework called again? 00:07:23.574 --> 00:07:24.484 Raph: Oh, bootstrap. 00:07:24.614 --> 00:07:25.154 Lio: I guess so. 00:07:25.184 --> 00:07:25.814 Yeah, bootstrap. 00:07:25.819 --> 00:07:26.864 I think it was using Bootstrap. 00:07:26.864 --> 00:07:29.854 I kind of forgot cause I haven't touched, I haven't touched it in a long time. 00:07:30.419 --> 00:07:32.609 Raph: You know what I love, so I just went to the website. 00:07:33.104 --> 00:07:37.349 I like that you have a little beta, beta banner on 00:07:37.349 --> 00:07:38.189 the top left. 00:07:38.194 --> 00:07:42.359 Lio: beta I got from Google, so I'm, that's, that's like a disclaimer 00:07:43.059 --> 00:07:44.979 Raph: It's a, it's a 12 year old beta. 00:07:45.549 --> 00:07:46.089 Lio: of beta. 00:07:46.789 --> 00:07:47.209 Raph: Yep. 00:07:47.689 --> 00:07:50.389 Lio: so the, the, so talk about deep stack, right? 00:07:50.389 --> 00:07:56.969 So front end is, uh, handwritten html, uh, with, uh, cs. 00:07:57.669 --> 00:08:01.119 Raph: That's, that's, uh, called that artisanal HTML 00:08:01.239 --> 00:08:02.619 Lio: Oh yeah, exactly. 00:08:02.629 --> 00:08:03.299 Exactly. 00:08:03.969 --> 00:08:08.709 Um, which to be honest, for that kind of single page app, I really think I don't 00:08:08.714 --> 00:08:10.659 need a, i, I don't need a framework. 00:08:10.659 --> 00:08:10.749 Right. 00:08:10.989 --> 00:08:11.639 Raph: I agree. 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:17.079 Lio: The, the jQuery's biggest feature, the dollar sign I just 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:18.939 built as a, you know, as a one-liner. 00:08:19.209 --> 00:08:24.189 And, and so to reference, uh, elements, you, you, I, I use that, 00:08:24.819 --> 00:08:26.799 uh, that same kind of, uh, style. 00:08:27.309 --> 00:08:29.929 Um, uh, I al and, and so. 00:08:30.739 --> 00:08:34.849 There's only one rest call basically there you can, uh, create a noun 00:08:34.849 --> 00:08:36.229 and you can dereference a noun. 00:08:36.589 --> 00:08:38.659 So that's, that's pretty much it. 00:08:39.319 --> 00:08:43.249 Uh, I also built, uh, two, uh, two native apps for iOS and Android 00:08:43.684 --> 00:08:44.314 Raph: Oh, 00:08:44.689 --> 00:08:45.949 Lio: in similar fashion. 00:08:45.979 --> 00:08:48.499 I, I, I didn't use any framework for those. 00:08:48.664 --> 00:08:50.284 Raph: are they still up on the app stores? 00:08:50.869 --> 00:08:51.949 Lio: They should be there, 00:08:52.204 --> 00:08:53.914 Raph: All right, cool. 00:08:54.810 --> 00:08:56.989 Lio: honestly, I, I, I need to revamp them. 00:08:56.989 --> 00:08:58.009 I, I wonder if they. 00:08:58.834 --> 00:09:00.514 Still work because as the 00:09:01.354 --> 00:09:01.624 Raph: Oh, 00:09:01.774 --> 00:09:07.294 Lio: of times the, the operating system, um, get revamped and, and if 00:09:07.294 --> 00:09:11.254 you do not recompile and re-upload your app, they'll, they'll just don't 00:09:11.254 --> 00:09:13.024 make it show up on the newer devices. 00:09:13.414 --> 00:09:16.324 And so it's possible that, uh, it's not 00:09:16.354 --> 00:09:17.134 Raph: longer listed. 00:09:18.094 --> 00:09:18.574 Lio: It could be. 00:09:18.574 --> 00:09:18.814 Yeah. 00:09:18.964 --> 00:09:19.354 Raph: Yeah. 00:09:19.414 --> 00:09:19.774 Yeah. 00:09:19.834 --> 00:09:20.074 It's gone. 00:09:20.774 --> 00:09:24.944 Lio: so I, I didn't use a framework for the native. 00:09:25.644 --> 00:09:26.334 Raph: Yep. 00:09:26.484 --> 00:09:28.974 Lio: Partly because that, that is kind of how I learn things. 00:09:28.974 --> 00:09:33.384 And same, same as, you know, not using jQuery and using JavaScript and, and 00:09:33.384 --> 00:09:39.504 writing CSS and html, if you don't know the pain points of doing that, I, I, 00:09:39.509 --> 00:09:43.614 I don't think you'll, you'll know the value that frameworks provide or which 00:09:43.619 --> 00:09:49.884 framework even to go for because you, you, you, you want to address that pain and 00:09:49.884 --> 00:09:54.264 if maybe the pain isn't even there, like in the case of of of front end for noun. 00:09:54.964 --> 00:09:59.204 Honestly, there is no pain in using JavaScript and XML http. 00:09:59.209 --> 00:10:04.284 There was no fetch api, right, so the XML http request to talk to a backend. 00:10:04.984 --> 00:10:06.144 Honestly, it's, it's, it's not a big deal. 00:10:06.444 --> 00:10:06.954 Raph: Yeah. 00:10:07.435 --> 00:10:11.645 Lio: Incidentally, my team and Microsoft was in charge of XML H 00:10:11.650 --> 00:10:16.115 G T P request, so I did not have a problem with XML H G T P request. 00:10:16.324 --> 00:10:16.984 Raph: Yep. 00:10:17.045 --> 00:10:17.314 Yep. 00:10:17.974 --> 00:10:24.935 Lio: One of my first tasks joining that team was actually, uh, xml, H E T 00:10:24.935 --> 00:10:30.514 p request had been added to Microsoft Internet Explorer by the office team. 00:10:31.339 --> 00:10:35.770 I became a standard afterwards, and then people started complaining 00:10:35.775 --> 00:10:38.150 that that Microsoft browser didn't support the standard. 00:10:38.150 --> 00:10:42.499 So my first task was to change XML H G T P request and Internet 00:10:42.499 --> 00:10:43.999 Explorer to follow the standard. 00:10:43.999 --> 00:10:45.379 So that was kind of a fun task. 00:10:45.739 --> 00:10:49.310 So for me to use XML, H G T P request was, was not a big issue. 00:10:49.369 --> 00:10:54.349 If you know the, the quirks, it's, it's a, it was never intended as, 00:10:55.250 --> 00:10:57.590 As a beautiful API for external use. 00:10:57.590 --> 00:11:00.110 It just became the begin beginning of Ajax, right? 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:04.020 Um, um, so that was the front end. 00:11:04.020 --> 00:11:09.190 And again, doing that handwritten full circle loop really makes you appreciate. 00:11:09.974 --> 00:11:13.395 When to use a framework, what framework you to use, which parts 00:11:13.395 --> 00:11:17.114 to use it for instead of blindly using every feature available. 00:11:17.114 --> 00:11:17.295 Right. 00:11:18.224 --> 00:11:21.255 Um, and so the same for, for the native apps. 00:11:21.255 --> 00:11:24.194 This is, again, a, a, a one page application. 00:11:24.974 --> 00:11:27.464 Um, I, I didn't feel the 00:11:27.469 --> 00:11:27.795 need to 00:11:27.795 --> 00:11:28.484 use, like, 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:29.610 Raph: and Java. 00:11:30.285 --> 00:11:36.494 Lio: so I think I, I used Kotlin on Android and I used, uh, well Swift on iOS. 00:11:36.839 --> 00:11:37.410 Raph: Yeah. 00:11:38.219 --> 00:11:43.020 Lio: And, and, and here's my biggest takeaway from this project was that 00:11:43.050 --> 00:11:48.870 once you design your model view, uh, view model, right, your, your model 00:11:48.870 --> 00:11:52.770 view controller, the, the new model view, view model, M V V M architecture, 00:11:52.770 --> 00:11:57.060 once you design that architecture, uh, it's the same for both apps. 00:11:57.750 --> 00:12:01.949 And, and so defining what your model looks like, what your model view looks like. 00:12:02.670 --> 00:12:03.780 What your views look like. 00:12:03.839 --> 00:12:05.969 That is 80% of the job. 00:12:05.969 --> 00:12:10.589 Then translating that into, translating that twice, once into 00:12:10.589 --> 00:12:13.349 Swift and once into, into Kotlin, 00:12:14.130 --> 00:12:14.489 Raph: Not a 00:12:14.589 --> 00:12:15.510 Lio: it's really negligible. 00:12:15.540 --> 00:12:20.980 Like it's, it's like, um, like the, I I always say like, in our profession, 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:22.630 typing is the least of my worry. 00:12:22.930 --> 00:12:27.250 You know, like designing something like good architecture and, and a 00:12:27.250 --> 00:12:29.380 stable, uh, resilient architecture. 00:12:29.380 --> 00:12:30.490 That, that is the hard part. 00:12:30.490 --> 00:12:30.670 Right. 00:12:30.670 --> 00:12:30.969 So, 00:12:31.329 --> 00:12:34.840 Raph: so what you're saying is chat, G P T is not taking our jobs just yet. 00:12:35.215 --> 00:12:38.305 Lio: Well, un unless they get into, in, into the designing 00:12:38.590 --> 00:12:39.160 Raph: Yeah. 00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:39.610 Yeah. 00:12:39.625 --> 00:12:39.805 Lio: Yeah. 00:12:39.805 --> 00:12:44.095 So typing the same architecture twice, once in, in Kotlin, one's in Swift. 00:12:44.575 --> 00:12:45.505 No problem at all. 00:12:45.505 --> 00:12:47.965 In fact, both apps are open source. 00:12:47.965 --> 00:12:51.115 So, and, and if you look at them, it's kind of funny, I, all the files 00:12:51.115 --> 00:12:52.735 on the folders have the same name. 00:12:53.185 --> 00:12:57.685 Just one is written for iOS and the other one is, is written in, uh, in Kotlin. 00:12:58.515 --> 00:13:02.185 And then there, there's, of course, there's 20% is, uh, different 00:13:02.185 --> 00:13:03.145 in the operating system, right? 00:13:03.145 --> 00:13:03.265 Yeah. 00:13:03.270 --> 00:13:07.915 You, once you get to storage, for example, they all have their, their own 00:13:07.915 --> 00:13:12.505 way of doing, uh, local preferences, local store, uh, stuff like that. 00:13:12.925 --> 00:13:17.875 Their, their fetch api, you know, the HTP API is a little different, but 00:13:18.665 --> 00:13:23.305 honestly, you, you write small, thin abstractions and then the rest of your 00:13:23.305 --> 00:13:27.325 app looks the same and it's beautiful because you end up at the same box in. 00:13:28.300 --> 00:13:33.340 And you fix them in both as opposed to if you used to, uh, web frameworks, 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:38.080 if you use a iOS framework or, or like one of those phone gap things. 00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:39.910 I, I'm not a fan. 00:13:39.910 --> 00:13:43.810 You get their own, they have their own quirks and now you're one step further 00:13:43.815 --> 00:13:45.940 away from the, the source of the problem. 00:13:45.940 --> 00:13:48.850 And I find debugging a higher level problem, always harder 00:13:48.850 --> 00:13:50.140 than debugging a low level one. 00:13:50.635 --> 00:13:52.375 Raph: Yeah, I can see that. 00:13:52.375 --> 00:13:55.795 I will in a, in a future episode, perhaps I will push back on 00:13:55.795 --> 00:13:56.905 a little bit of that, but, 00:13:57.605 --> 00:14:04.035 Lio: Yeah, I, I, I know exactly when to appreciate those, uh, frameworks 00:14:04.635 --> 00:14:07.545 after having, you know, doing the, the, the manual work. 00:14:07.920 --> 00:14:08.460 Raph: Yep. 00:14:08.955 --> 00:14:11.385 Lio: Um, so we, we are going through the stack, right? 00:14:11.385 --> 00:14:16.245 We, we have, uh, art Artisan Know, H M l, JavaScript, css. 00:14:16.665 --> 00:14:20.955 Uh, Uh, native apps, uh, Kotlin and, and Swift. 00:14:21.795 --> 00:14:25.875 Um, our, our REST api, very straightforward rest API 00:14:25.875 --> 00:14:29.145 with just crud, crud, nouns. 00:14:29.145 --> 00:14:32.955 Basically, you know, you can post, you get a noun, you can delete that noun, you 00:14:32.955 --> 00:14:34.785 can get it to the reference, the noun. 00:14:35.655 --> 00:14:37.335 Raph: What, uh, what database are you using? 00:14:37.865 --> 00:14:38.865 Lio: Um, yeah, okay. 00:14:38.865 --> 00:14:40.575 That is still Azure table actually. 00:14:40.575 --> 00:14:46.995 So I, I wanted to, in that new world of cloud, uh, they had introduced Azure. 00:14:47.505 --> 00:14:53.415 Uh, Azure Blob Store, Azure Table Store, and uh, there was a third one. 00:14:54.115 --> 00:14:57.805 The, the very Early Storage Services or Azure queue. 00:14:57.835 --> 00:15:02.065 Yeah, those were the first three high level storage services that Azure 00:15:02.065 --> 00:15:04.555 provided back in the, the early tents. 00:15:05.255 --> 00:15:06.845 And so I, I used Azure Table, 00:15:07.535 --> 00:15:08.225 Raph: Okay. 00:15:08.225 --> 00:15:10.835 Lio: is kind of like a precursor to Dynamo, right? 00:15:11.535 --> 00:15:13.815 Dyna might have been around actually because a Azure was 00:15:13.815 --> 00:15:17.955 really catching up on, on a Amazon in the early, early cloud years. 00:15:18.555 --> 00:15:21.795 But Azure Table was perfect because they have this key value kind of 00:15:21.800 --> 00:15:23.835 behavior and and the key is the nouns. 00:15:23.895 --> 00:15:27.555 Raph: Wait, but so you had this, you had this back in 2011. 00:15:28.275 --> 00:15:28.545 Lio: right? 00:15:28.545 --> 00:15:28.815 Yep. 00:15:29.175 --> 00:15:29.475 Raph: Okay. 00:15:30.175 --> 00:15:31.465 Lio: So I was using Azure Table. 00:15:31.465 --> 00:15:34.375 I, I'm still using Azure Table as a key value store. 00:15:35.005 --> 00:15:41.645 Um, so as stinky, bad, and now only got more popular, I, I ran out of nouns. 00:15:41.795 --> 00:15:44.855 And so the nouns became limited in time. 00:15:44.855 --> 00:15:48.635 So after 24 hours, your link might no longer be valid because 00:15:48.640 --> 00:15:51.935 it, there's like a garbage, lazy garbage collection that's happening. 00:15:52.565 --> 00:15:57.905 And, but you can get, and, and as nouns are taken, You end up with more nouns. 00:15:57.905 --> 00:16:01.895 So instead of stinky bad chair, you would end up with stinky bad horse chair, right? 00:16:01.955 --> 00:16:03.605 And, and still was fun. 00:16:03.695 --> 00:16:06.605 Oftentimes you end up with very fun combinations. 00:16:06.885 --> 00:16:07.375 Raph: Yeah. 00:16:08.015 --> 00:16:11.615 Lio: Um, and, and key value store was perfect, right? 00:16:11.615 --> 00:16:16.055 You have a, you have a key and, and the value becomes the URL that is being de 00:16:16.055 --> 00:16:17.915 referenced, but plus a bunch of metadata. 00:16:18.615 --> 00:16:22.846 Uh, interestingly, as soon as these, the site was up and running, I, I 00:16:22.851 --> 00:16:27.615 got a shitload of spam because all of these bots, anytime they see a 00:16:27.615 --> 00:16:29.505 added box, they just put links in it. 00:16:29.505 --> 00:16:29.745 Right? 00:16:29.895 --> 00:16:31.485 You get like a lot of spam. 00:16:32.025 --> 00:16:38.475 So, so in, in the backend, I, I, I think 60% of the backend code is anti. 00:16:39.175 --> 00:16:43.870 So I, I do like the, the, i I do like a honeypot in the HTML form, right? 00:16:43.870 --> 00:16:50.560 So that means like a bogus field with like a, a, a display non CSS class 00:16:51.189 --> 00:16:55.270 that bots, if bots put something in there, then you know, it's a bot. 00:16:55.479 --> 00:16:58.630 I, I reference, uh, two external honeypots. 00:16:58.635 --> 00:17:02.140 So there is the honeypot project actually, that, that was cloud flare. 00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:06.179 First project, uh, cloud flares. 00:17:06.190 --> 00:17:11.079 Uh, before it was called CloudFlare, there was honeypot, uh, project.org, 00:17:11.110 --> 00:17:16.810 I think, uh, where people would, uh, volunteer to put a piece of form on 00:17:16.810 --> 00:17:19.810 their website that cloud honeypot. 00:17:19.810 --> 00:17:26.380 So the early CloudFlare would, uh, use to detect, um, bots and, and keep a, a. 00:17:27.190 --> 00:17:31.420 A blacklist of these, uh, of these bots, of these IP addresses 00:17:31.600 --> 00:17:32.830 that these bots were using. 00:17:33.219 --> 00:17:35.320 And so that was called a rbl, I think. 00:17:35.409 --> 00:17:41.390 Uh, RBL stood for, um, request block list or something. 00:17:41.390 --> 00:17:42.770 I forgot what the R stood for. 00:17:43.245 --> 00:17:43.525 Raph: Yeah. 00:17:44.225 --> 00:17:48.455 Lio: Um, And so, and, and there's another one, uh, spam house.org. 00:17:48.515 --> 00:17:52.715 So I, these, both of these have public RBLs and these RBLs, you can 00:17:52.715 --> 00:17:57.125 query them using DNS is actually kind of funny, an API designed on dns. 00:17:57.575 --> 00:18:03.245 So to, to query these databases, you would craft a, uh, DNS request. 00:18:03.245 --> 00:18:06.995 So you would ask, what is the IP for, you know, for this domain. 00:18:07.205 --> 00:18:09.215 But the domain was not, not a real domain, right? 00:18:09.215 --> 00:18:10.325 So basically the. 00:18:11.105 --> 00:18:14.315 You the, the, the IP address that you want to query, 00:18:14.470 --> 00:18:15.080 Raph: Mm-hmm. 00:18:15.335 --> 00:18:20.355 Lio: uh, you, you pre-end it to their, uh, RBL domain. 00:18:20.355 --> 00:18:25.065 So I think it was like rbl dot spam house.org and rbl dot 00:18:25.575 --> 00:18:28.095 uh, uh, project honeypot.org. 00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:32.820 And so you, you repent the IP address and then it would return an IP address. 00:18:32.820 --> 00:18:36.720 If it says not found, like, you know, an X domain, uh, IP, not, 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.600 uh, or domain address not found, then, then it was not in the list. 00:18:39.810 --> 00:18:43.320 If it returns an IP address, then that IP address instead 00:18:43.320 --> 00:18:44.880 of, it's not a real IP address. 00:18:44.885 --> 00:18:49.410 In fact, it would always be local host, always do 1 27 0 0 00:18:49.890 --> 00:18:54.120 x, and then the last digit, uh, of the IP address actually tells. 00:18:54.840 --> 00:18:57.980 Some metadata about, you know, why it was blocked. 00:18:58.310 --> 00:18:58.790 Raph: Okay. 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.610 I feel like I vaguely remember coming across this many 00:19:01.800 --> 00:19:03.050 Lio: Yeah, it's kind funny. 00:19:03.290 --> 00:19:03.440 Raph: Yeah. 00:19:03.830 --> 00:19:07.310 Lio: Uh, and so, and, and so I, I did that, I did, uh, the form 00:19:07.315 --> 00:19:10.040 honeypot two, uh, RBL queries. 00:19:10.520 --> 00:19:14.660 And then there's a little bit of, um, because my now only doesn't have a login, 00:19:14.750 --> 00:19:19.250 so it doesn't have an idea of a session and I didn't want to get into that. 00:19:19.580 --> 00:19:21.410 Um, that, that is like a rabbit hole. 00:19:21.410 --> 00:19:22.090 I didn't wanna get, 00:19:22.790 --> 00:19:23.195 Raph: Yeah. 00:19:23.900 --> 00:19:28.280 Lio: so to prevent spam, I did, um, kind of proof of work. 00:19:28.280 --> 00:19:34.520 So, so the, the no only JavaScript when you post the JavaScript 00:19:34.970 --> 00:19:39.050 calculates a bunch of hashes with, with, uh, with the current time. 00:19:39.770 --> 00:19:43.640 Uh, and the, and the salt that keeps changing until that hash 00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:46.610 ends in a number, a bunch of zeros. 00:19:46.610 --> 00:19:50.810 It's kind of like how, how the early, well, so how, how Bitcoin, 00:19:51.170 --> 00:19:53.630 but also the early, um, cash hash. 00:19:53.930 --> 00:19:56.780 So cash hash was an anti-spam, pre pret Bitcoin, right? 00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:58.640 Uh, uh, anti-spam mechanism. 00:19:59.270 --> 00:20:01.040 And so inspired by cash. 00:20:01.940 --> 00:20:06.140 The, the website, when you do a post on ly form it, it does a bunch of 00:20:06.140 --> 00:20:10.010 these iterations until it has a hash with a bunch of zeros, and then it's 00:20:10.015 --> 00:20:14.000 very quickly to test backend, whether there's zeros in the, in the hash. 00:20:14.270 --> 00:20:19.680 So using these, that's why I mean, 60% is anti-spam in, in the, in 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.880 the backend because of the actual key value is, is very simple. 00:20:24.405 --> 00:20:25.065 Raph: Wild. 00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:31.120 Lio: Uh, Um, yeah, so, uh, we, the storage is just key value store. 00:20:31.510 --> 00:20:33.880 It can, honestly, it can be any key value store because I'm 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:35.770 not using any, any fanciness. 00:20:36.580 --> 00:20:39.520 The only fancy feature, it's not fancy anymore because 00:20:39.520 --> 00:20:41.080 now every store provides it. 00:20:41.560 --> 00:20:45.880 The on the only fanciness is the optimistic locking, right? 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.090 So if you have multiple. 00:20:48.790 --> 00:20:51.520 Uh, customers going to the website, multiple users going to the 00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:55.330 website, and they, because of the, the algorithm is deterministic 00:20:55.330 --> 00:20:57.070 when it returns a noun for a url, 00:20:57.455 --> 00:20:57.970 Raph: Mm-hmm. 00:20:58.670 --> 00:21:00.680 Lio: um, it's not random. 00:21:01.270 --> 00:21:01.760 Raph: Okay. 00:21:02.105 --> 00:21:05.975 Lio: And so it's there, there's a risk that both would get the same noun. 00:21:06.125 --> 00:21:09.065 And so how do you prevent this kind of concurrency? 00:21:09.125 --> 00:21:10.865 And I'm using optimistic locking. 00:21:11.225 --> 00:21:15.215 Optimistic locking boils down to every record keeping track of aversion 00:21:15.845 --> 00:21:17.855 and when the record is updated. 00:21:17.855 --> 00:21:22.745 So for in, in the noun only case, the key is the, the noun or nouns that you. 00:21:23.445 --> 00:21:24.735 That you're about to get right? 00:21:25.035 --> 00:21:28.815 So when a record gets updated, it has to provide the version that it's 00:21:29.145 --> 00:21:30.585 of the record that it's updating. 00:21:31.005 --> 00:21:35.550 So if somebody wins the race, Then your version would no longer match. 00:21:35.550 --> 00:21:38.910 And, uh, and there's an iteration loop a second time where it picks 00:21:38.910 --> 00:21:44.460 another noun and, and it would try again until it, your browser wins the 00:21:44.460 --> 00:21:48.540 race and, and you get the nouns, uh, displayed in, in your browser window. 00:21:48.930 --> 00:21:53.700 So optimistic locking is how you avoid like locking database tables, locking 00:21:53.700 --> 00:21:56.640 records, all this kind of locking, which. 00:21:57.585 --> 00:22:01.095 If you do not unlock, you know, you, you can get into a deadlock, you can 00:22:01.095 --> 00:22:06.375 get into, uh, a lock that that has to expire before somebody can do something. 00:22:06.375 --> 00:22:08.475 So, locking to me is something to be avoided. 00:22:08.805 --> 00:22:09.435 Raph: Yeah, 00:22:10.135 --> 00:22:13.315 Lio: And, and now a lot of these key value stores, right, Redis, 00:22:13.735 --> 00:22:18.685 uh, NATS Dynamo, they all have this optimistic locking, uh, as a pattern. 00:22:18.985 --> 00:22:19.555 Raph: Yep. 00:22:20.555 --> 00:22:24.515 Lio: Um, so, and then, then the last thing I was around the same 00:22:24.515 --> 00:22:27.425 time, I, I got to know, uh, Nick's. 00:22:27.485 --> 00:22:31.915 So the next package manager, I've been using macros, but with the NS 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:38.225 package manager and, and the NS package manager and can build Docker images. 00:22:38.315 --> 00:22:42.155 And it's kind of cool because if you use Nix to build a Docker 00:22:42.155 --> 00:22:43.955 image, the Docker image will g. 00:22:45.135 --> 00:22:47.505 only stuff that is referenceable, right? 00:22:47.505 --> 00:22:51.975 The, the, the way Nix works, everything has a hash based on the, 00:22:51.975 --> 00:22:54.135 the sources that were used to generate. 00:22:54.825 --> 00:22:57.585 And so when you start with your binary, which is my noun, 00:22:57.585 --> 00:22:59.895 only the language binary, 00:23:00.285 --> 00:23:00.705 Raph: Yep. 00:23:00.915 --> 00:23:02.235 Lio: basically scans that binary. 00:23:02.235 --> 00:23:05.805 And if there's a hash to TC data at dc, data will be pulled 00:23:05.805 --> 00:23:07.575 in if there's a hash to gyps. 00:23:08.430 --> 00:23:11.970 Which the, there probably isn't because it was using D Lang, but 00:23:12.210 --> 00:23:13.260 it would pull that in, right? 00:23:13.260 --> 00:23:18.990 So everything because of this, this, this, uh, tree of hashing, uh, It would 00:23:18.990 --> 00:23:24.450 only pull in stuff that are, is actively being referenced by that, uh, that binary, 00:23:24.540 --> 00:23:26.700 the, the, the final, the final binary. 00:23:26.705 --> 00:23:31.410 So you, you end up with very small, uh, docker images from scratch, basically 00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:36.090 the, the equivalent, uh, as writing your own from scratch and copying only 00:23:36.090 --> 00:23:37.860 the, the, the stuff that you would need. 00:23:38.595 --> 00:23:38.865 Raph: Yep. 00:23:39.270 --> 00:23:40.380 Lio: So that was kind of cool. 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:44.520 Uh, not only really let me experiment with all these utility. 00:23:45.465 --> 00:23:48.195 Yeah, it, it's, it's, it's an old website. 00:23:48.225 --> 00:23:52.365 Uh, the, the apps might have been delisted, so it needs some 00:23:52.365 --> 00:23:57.975 love and I probably need to spend some, some time to, to revamp it. 00:23:58.365 --> 00:24:00.105 Raph: so, so how are you gonna do that? 00:24:00.915 --> 00:24:01.695 Lio: That's a good question. 00:24:01.700 --> 00:24:04.405 Like I probably wouldn't use D Lang anymore. 00:24:04.635 --> 00:24:05.265 Raph: No. 00:24:05.415 --> 00:24:06.795 Lio: not, not because of the language. 00:24:07.125 --> 00:24:10.575 I think the language is still being actively developed, getting new features. 00:24:11.325 --> 00:24:14.405 Dealing is, is not well known, but it, it's, it. 00:24:14.910 --> 00:24:17.460 A lot of the features make it into the other languages. 00:24:17.465 --> 00:24:21.780 Like Rust has, has features that, that started in D Lang c plus plus. 00:24:21.780 --> 00:24:24.630 The new c plus plus has features that started in D Lang. 00:24:25.110 --> 00:24:30.180 So I, I really feel it's, it's kind of fun having followed that language and 00:24:30.185 --> 00:24:33.120 the design and the discussions behind the features that are being added. 00:24:33.360 --> 00:24:33.630 Raph: Yeah. 00:24:34.110 --> 00:24:35.370 Lio: It, it taught me a lot. 00:24:35.850 --> 00:24:39.210 It's just that 5g, the web framework is, is really old right 00:24:39.210 --> 00:24:39.570 now. 00:24:40.035 --> 00:24:40.815 Raph: Yeah, their, uh, 00:24:40.860 --> 00:24:41.370 Lio: I, and I'm. 00:24:41.565 --> 00:24:42.975 Raph: a little, a little dated. 00:24:43.230 --> 00:24:44.040 Lio: it's very dated. 00:24:44.100 --> 00:24:47.740 I don't think there's a new modern alternative, so I would probably 00:24:47.745 --> 00:24:50.220 use like a go or type script 00:24:50.565 --> 00:24:54.495 Raph: Hey, the latest, latest commit to Vibe D was eight hours ago. 00:24:54.665 --> 00:24:55.015 So 00:24:55.715 --> 00:24:56.075 Lio: Well, 00:24:56.155 --> 00:24:56.780 Raph: maintained. 00:24:57.480 --> 00:24:58.650 I don't know how actively. 00:24:59.350 --> 00:24:59.840 Lio: Yeah. 00:25:00.310 --> 00:25:02.900 I, I, I think it is being maintained. 00:25:02.990 --> 00:25:03.170 Yeah. 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.180 But I wonder how much of those are just. 00:25:05.885 --> 00:25:09.245 Fixing breakage, uh, happening by the compiler. 00:25:09.605 --> 00:25:10.715 The compiler features are 00:25:10.715 --> 00:25:11.225 being added. 00:25:11.795 --> 00:25:14.315 Raph: it, it still hasn't gotten to a version one. 00:25:14.345 --> 00:25:16.445 It's still at 0.9 0.6. 00:25:16.955 --> 00:25:17.525 Lio: There you go. 00:25:17.525 --> 00:25:17.885 Yeah. 00:25:18.215 --> 00:25:18.785 Not great. 00:25:19.265 --> 00:25:19.535 Raph: Yeah. 00:25:20.045 --> 00:25:23.135 Lio: So, uh, I wouldn't use Azure Table probably as another 00:25:23.135 --> 00:25:28.415 one of those things that, that I don't think it got any features. 00:25:29.225 --> 00:25:30.465 In fact, I, I. 00:25:31.165 --> 00:25:34.065 Considering the size of my data set, it's not big, right? 00:25:34.335 --> 00:25:37.845 Um, because the nouns expire after 24 hours. 00:25:38.235 --> 00:25:42.285 The number of keys that I have to keep in memory is pretty constant. 00:25:42.555 --> 00:25:44.055 Doesn't change much. 00:25:44.385 --> 00:25:45.345 It's not very big. 00:25:45.345 --> 00:25:47.145 I could probably keep the whole thing in memory. 00:25:47.865 --> 00:25:51.645 Uh, of course, I cannot use local memory, right as I have multiple 00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:53.565 instances of my backend up and running. 00:25:53.985 --> 00:25:57.645 They, they need, uh, like a consistent memory store. 00:25:58.395 --> 00:25:59.505 A consistent store, 00:25:59.745 --> 00:26:00.375 Raph: Yep. 00:26:00.645 --> 00:26:03.105 Lio: but I could probably do it in Redis or Nats. 00:26:03.165 --> 00:26:05.025 So I would use either one of those two. 00:26:05.325 --> 00:26:05.865 Perfect. 00:26:05.895 --> 00:26:08.295 In-memory databases, I don't need persistence. 00:26:08.685 --> 00:26:11.565 Like the, what is the worst that can happen if I, if I lose all 00:26:11.565 --> 00:26:14.805 my instances and, and all the keys and the values are gone, 00:26:14.875 --> 00:26:15.485 Raph: Mm-hmm. 00:26:15.855 --> 00:26:20.115 Lio: like only the active nouns would've been affected and which are not that many. 00:26:20.265 --> 00:26:23.925 So that's probably the better architecture as opposed to doing like a round. 00:26:24.615 --> 00:26:27.885 To a persistent database like Azure Table, right? 00:26:27.885 --> 00:26:29.055 It's a little bit overkill. 00:26:29.595 --> 00:26:30.135 Um, 00:26:32.470 --> 00:26:36.070 Raph: Would you, you wouldn't, you wouldn't switch to a, to a, a full, 00:26:36.070 --> 00:26:38.770 full blown front end framework with 00:26:39.385 --> 00:26:40.165 Lio: I could be tempted. 00:26:40.195 --> 00:26:41.995 No, I I actually, I would be tempted too. 00:26:42.310 --> 00:26:42.430 Raph: Yeah. 00:26:43.130 --> 00:26:44.120 What would be the value there? 00:26:44.820 --> 00:26:45.150 Lio: so, 00:26:45.315 --> 00:26:45.675 Raph: for fun? 00:26:45.855 --> 00:26:47.955 Or would there be some value? 00:26:48.570 --> 00:26:50.250 Lio: yeah, maybe, maybe just for fun to 00:26:50.445 --> 00:26:51.465 Raph: fun is valuable. 00:26:51.810 --> 00:26:55.290 Lio: To, to me, a project like not only is perfect, uh, ground 00:26:55.290 --> 00:26:56.850 to, to experiments with, right? 00:26:56.850 --> 00:27:01.440 Like, uh, what would it look like using View, what would it look like using React? 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:06.450 You know, how and how do you compare, like how do you quantify the costs 00:27:06.540 --> 00:27:11.880 and, and, and, and, uh, the value of these, uh, of these frameworks. 00:27:12.310 --> 00:27:12.675 Raph: Yeah, 00:27:12.930 --> 00:27:13.650 Lio: So the one that. 00:27:14.350 --> 00:27:18.310 Um, the one that I personally haven't used yet, but would love to 00:27:18.520 --> 00:27:21.790 try and maybe now only would be a occasion to try it, it's felt kit. 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:24.610 So maybe I, I, I would try that for now. 00:27:24.610 --> 00:27:25.510 Only 2.0. 00:27:26.350 --> 00:27:27.340 Get it out Data. 00:27:27.985 --> 00:27:28.225 Raph: Yeah. 00:27:28.925 --> 00:27:30.785 Finally remove that, that little flag. 00:27:31.485 --> 00:27:31.695 Lio: Yeah. 00:27:32.295 --> 00:27:34.065 So yeah, it's a fun little project. 00:27:34.095 --> 00:27:36.675 Um, I still use it in my presentations. 00:27:36.705 --> 00:27:38.565 Uh, there is, it has some usage. 00:27:38.865 --> 00:27:40.035 I mean, I'm not marketing it. 00:27:40.095 --> 00:27:42.585 Um, you know, if people like it, let me know. 00:27:42.585 --> 00:27:45.325 If people think if, if it doesn't work, let me know. 00:27:45.325 --> 00:27:48.445 If, uh, there's a feature you would like to see, let me know. 00:27:48.475 --> 00:27:50.535 It's quite, quite fun for me to e. 00:27:51.145 --> 00:27:53.905 Raph: That's noun ly, right? 00:27:53.995 --> 00:27:57.205 Noun ly awesome. 00:27:57.370 --> 00:28:00.430 Lio: So a little, uh, Easter egg. 00:28:00.835 --> 00:28:01.195 Raph: Yeah. 00:28:01.300 --> 00:28:08.410 Lio: Uh, if you go to noun mom, m o m, it's goes to a five video that one of my 00:28:08.410 --> 00:28:10.780 friends got me when I launched Stinky Bad. 00:28:11.140 --> 00:28:14.410 And so it still references stinky bad, but it's hilarious. 00:28:14.415 --> 00:28:18.130 Like I, maybe I should do a ask the same guy to do a new one. 00:28:18.790 --> 00:28:19.210 So, uh, 00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:22.470 Raph: Oops, that's my camera deciding. 00:28:22.470 --> 00:28:23.850 It has been half an hour. 00:28:24.550 --> 00:28:25.120 Alrighty. 00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:26.860 Thanks for listening. 00:28:26.865 --> 00:28:31.300 We are building projects that should make it a lot easier for developers 00:28:31.300 --> 00:28:33.660 to build projects like Noun.ly. 00:28:34.585 --> 00:28:38.935 Lio: Yeah, check, check out Defang.io, which is making building web apps 00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:41.055 cheaper, easier, and more resilient. 00:28:41.950 --> 00:28:45.290 Raph: And check out the Chewy Stack at gochewy.io. 00:28:45.340 --> 00:28:49.810 A deep stack framework that helps developers build better products faster. 00:28:50.290 --> 00:28:54.690 That's Defang defang.io. 00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:57.430 And gochewy.io. 00:28:57.430 --> 00:28:59.760 gochewy.io. 00:28:59.885 --> 00:29:04.085 Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode.