WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.740 --> 00:00:04.540 A key component of the modern world economy, the chemical 00:00:04.540 --> 00:00:07.990 industry delivers products and innovations to enhance everyday life. 00:00:08.605 --> 00:00:12.594 It is also an industry in transformation where chemical executives and 00:00:12.594 --> 00:00:16.215 workers are delivering growth and industry changing advancements while 00:00:16.215 --> 00:00:19.974 responding to pressures from investors, regulators, and public opinion. 00:00:20.515 --> 00:00:23.445 Discover how leading companies are approaching these challenges 00:00:23.455 --> 00:00:25.064 here on the chemical show. 00:00:25.524 --> 00:00:28.875 Join Victoria Meyer, president of Progressio Global and 00:00:28.885 --> 00:00:30.305 host of the chemical show. 00:00:30.575 --> 00:00:34.775 As she speaks with executives across the industry and learns how they are leading 00:00:34.775 --> 00:00:40.374 their companies to grow, transform, and push industry boundaries on all frontiers. 00:00:40.695 --> 00:00:42.944 Here's your host, Victoria Meyer. 00:00:45.839 --> 00:00:47.279 Victoria: Hi, this is Victoria Meyer. 00:00:47.309 --> 00:00:50.708 Welcome back to The Chemical Show where chemicals means business. 00:00:51.489 --> 00:00:55.598 Today I am speaking with Kevin Yttre, who is the President and Managing 00:00:55.599 --> 00:00:59.919 Director at Grace Matthews, which is an investment bank serving companies in 00:00:59.919 --> 00:01:02.549 the chemicals and materials value chain. 00:01:02.878 --> 00:01:09.109 So we're going to be wrapping up 2024 with a view on M&A markets and activity 00:01:09.109 --> 00:01:11.839 for chemicals, and materials companies. 00:01:12.139 --> 00:01:17.929 You may recall that Kevin was a guest on episode one of six in June of 2023. 00:01:17.939 --> 00:01:20.139 We are going to be linking to that episode. 00:01:20.509 --> 00:01:22.778 so you can hear what was going on in markets at that time 00:01:22.778 --> 00:01:24.168 versus where we are today. 00:01:24.478 --> 00:01:28.579 And I know that Kevin's also going to be referencing Grace Matthews, most 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:32.278 recent newsletter, and I'll include the link to that in show notes. 00:01:32.298 --> 00:01:36.268 Cause that has some great insights about, How you might be thinking 00:01:36.268 --> 00:01:40.858 about the world of M&A and how, and strategies for M&A success. 00:01:40.858 --> 00:01:42.018 So we'll be linking to that. 00:01:42.648 --> 00:01:44.168 Kevin, welcome to The Chemical Show. 00:01:44.905 --> 00:01:46.165 Kevin: Thank you very much, Victoria. 00:01:46.275 --> 00:01:46.865 Grateful to be here. 00:01:47.358 --> 00:01:49.288 Victoria: Thank you for joining me once again. 00:01:50.518 --> 00:01:52.978 as we get started, can you just give us a brief introduction 00:01:52.978 --> 00:01:55.018 to you and to Grace Matthews? 00:01:55.255 --> 00:01:58.015 Kevin: Yeah, first, can I just say this in that intro? 00:01:58.075 --> 00:02:01.235 I didn't actually go back and listen to the June podcast from 2023, 00:02:01.755 --> 00:02:03.155 so I'm a bit nervous right now. 00:02:03.708 --> 00:02:05.088 Victoria: I didn't. 00:02:05.228 --> 00:02:05.938 How about this? 00:02:05.998 --> 00:02:08.888 I did not either, but knowing you, Kevin, I know it's 00:02:08.975 --> 00:02:09.115 Kevin: I'm 00:02:09.365 --> 00:02:10.735 hoping there's consistency. 00:02:10.736 --> 00:02:13.025 I'm hoping there's consistency. 00:02:13.025 --> 00:02:13.605 How's that? 00:02:14.915 --> 00:02:19.585 Victoria, I have spent my entire professional career in and around 00:02:19.585 --> 00:02:23.935 the chemical industry, and first that was in more operating roles and 00:02:23.945 --> 00:02:27.575 then transitioning into financial services about 17 years ago. 00:02:27.575 --> 00:02:31.635 So I've been doing all M&A work And, material science and 00:02:31.635 --> 00:02:33.595 chemicals for that time period. 00:02:33.595 --> 00:02:36.945 And we as an organization, everything we do, as you mentioned in the 00:02:36.945 --> 00:02:39.665 intro is really in this value chain. 00:02:39.675 --> 00:02:43.395 And just to give you some metrics on us, we have 20 people here in Milwaukee, 00:02:43.395 --> 00:02:49.405 Wisconsin, and 2024, for example, we were fortunate to have advised on 11 00:02:51.725 --> 00:02:54.845 closings, a 12th that had a signed purchase agreement on. 00:02:55.935 --> 00:02:57.275 we closed 10, 10 deals. 00:02:57.585 --> 00:03:01.055 so feel, very positive momentum going into 2025. 00:03:01.085 --> 00:03:04.195 And, most of our work is on the sell side. 00:03:04.215 --> 00:03:08.235 And when you look at that, it's a pretty uniform mix of private companies, 00:03:08.275 --> 00:03:12.045 corporate carve outs and also working with private equity funds when they're 00:03:12.045 --> 00:03:16.165 ready to realize an exit and, and the balance of our work, which is a smaller 00:03:16.215 --> 00:03:18.555 portion of our practices on the buy side. 00:03:19.550 --> 00:03:22.810 I think you've heard me say this before, but the vast majority of what 00:03:22.810 --> 00:03:27.190 we work on are transactions that are below 500 million in enterprise value. 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:30.001 Some people call that lower middle market or middle market, but that's 00:03:30.001 --> 00:03:31.671 really where we spend all of our time. 00:03:31.949 --> 00:03:32.269 Victoria: Yeah. 00:03:32.299 --> 00:03:33.019 And that makes sense. 00:03:33.019 --> 00:03:36.959 And when I think about the industry most broadly on a 80 20 basis, 00:03:37.229 --> 00:03:42.129 probably 80 percent of the industry is in that, valuation zone. 00:03:42.511 --> 00:03:42.731 Kevin: Yep. 00:03:42.801 --> 00:03:43.381 I think that's right. 00:03:43.690 --> 00:03:44.070 I think that's right. 00:03:44.318 --> 00:03:44.628 Victoria: Awesome. 00:03:44.829 --> 00:03:48.499 So as we're wrapping up the year, what are your observations 00:03:48.508 --> 00:03:52.919 or assessments on chemicals and materials M&A activity in 24? 00:03:53.770 --> 00:03:54.000 Kevin: Yeah. 00:03:54.181 --> 00:03:56.670 I think, so first let me just say this. 00:03:56.711 --> 00:04:02.576 I think forward looking, I think there's a lot of optimism going into 2025, just in 00:04:02.576 --> 00:04:05.366 terms of M&A activity in the value chain. 00:04:07.105 --> 00:04:11.016 if you take a step back for a second, and this is where I was 00:04:11.025 --> 00:04:13.576 joking about the 2023 podcast. 00:04:13.576 --> 00:04:15.585 I hope this is what I was saying at that time. 00:04:16.035 --> 00:04:20.906 But, if you recall me all the dynamics that led to, to supply 00:04:20.906 --> 00:04:26.236 chain challenges and issues in the 22, 23 timeframe, 21 timeframe, 00:04:26.596 --> 00:04:28.146 you saw a lot of companies have. 00:04:28.221 --> 00:04:34.261 Have record years in 2022 and, that destocking element of things started 00:04:34.271 --> 00:04:37.881 to seem to hit people in Q4 of 2022. 00:04:38.261 --> 00:04:42.391 And depending on where you were in the value chain, it rippled through 00:04:42.391 --> 00:04:46.610 all of 2023 and hit different organizations at different times. 00:04:46.700 --> 00:04:52.840 And I think what that did, was very much create a situation where. 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:57.130 Forecasting or projecting a business became really challenging. 00:04:57.150 --> 00:05:01.730 And we, had instances, and I'm sure you've had people, on your podcast, 00:05:01.780 --> 00:05:04.530 Victoria, that would say they have a customer telling us they're 00:05:04.530 --> 00:05:06.111 taking four tank wagons this month. 00:05:06.161 --> 00:05:07.880 And then they call us the next day and say, it's one. 00:05:07.881 --> 00:05:09.960 And they call us the next day and say, actually, we need three. 00:05:11.080 --> 00:05:17.140 and I think, it's just like the industry standard in transcactions to talk 00:05:17.140 --> 00:05:19.121 in terms of EBITDA multiples, but. 00:05:19.801 --> 00:05:23.711 When you think of it this way, and I know we'll talk about valuation of it, but a 00:05:23.711 --> 00:05:25.571 buyer is always buying the future, right? 00:05:26.091 --> 00:05:30.150 And, when you talk in terms of a multiple, typically when you think of 00:05:30.150 --> 00:05:34.630 that, it's you're taking the enterprise value compared to the most recent 12 00:05:34.711 --> 00:05:36.821 months of the company's performance. 00:05:37.666 --> 00:05:41.256 that 12 months is usually the best indicator of the future. 00:05:41.385 --> 00:05:46.865 And that's what started to decouple is if you go back and you look at all, 00:05:46.926 --> 00:05:50.756 all kinds of articles that we would have been a part of, or presentations 00:05:50.756 --> 00:05:54.825 we gave, it was all about run rate sustainability or sustainability and 00:05:54.865 --> 00:05:58.016 preparing, if you're going to go to market to be able to articulate why 00:05:58.016 --> 00:05:59.546 your run rate was going to hold. 00:05:59.575 --> 00:06:04.971 And I think what's changed in 2024 is you have seen companies, be able to better 00:06:04.991 --> 00:06:06.651 predict how they're going to perform. 00:06:06.651 --> 00:06:08.261 And that was a challenge in 23. 00:06:08.341 --> 00:06:11.361 And I think as a result, you've seen deal activity really pick 00:06:11.361 --> 00:06:13.450 up in the back half of this year. 00:06:13.451 --> 00:06:17.350 So you look at deal counts and I know you referenced our newsletter, but if you go 00:06:17.350 --> 00:06:21.370 look, we have a chart in there that, that shows kind of deal counts, not overall 00:06:21.370 --> 00:06:23.480 enterprise value, just number of deals. 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:29.190 And you saw a step back in 23, and really stepped back up in 24. 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:34.390 And a lot of that step up in my view is really linked to that dynamic of 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.580 better predictability of earnings. 00:06:36.930 --> 00:06:40.010 And it puts that buyer and seller in the safe spot. 00:06:40.700 --> 00:06:46.140 and I know, the funny part about that is we'd have people in 23 go, I 00:06:46.140 --> 00:06:48.260 bet this means valuations are down. 00:06:48.870 --> 00:06:53.000 And we respond going, you like, rationally, you'd think that a lot 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:54.440 of those deals just didn't happen. 00:06:54.980 --> 00:07:00.040 And so if companies that performed really well in 2023, the resiliency 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:03.350 that they would have shown, we actually saw values probably higher, 00:07:03.350 --> 00:07:05.390 that whole flight to quality concept. 00:07:05.400 --> 00:07:09.160 I think the whole like multiples equation that I'm sure we'll talk 00:07:09.170 --> 00:07:15.560 about, I think is also improved here, but really I think that's the dynamic. 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:19.190 If you were to say status of today versus, versus 2023. 00:07:19.508 --> 00:07:19.868 Victoria: Yeah. 00:07:19.898 --> 00:07:20.768 And that makes sense. 00:07:21.238 --> 00:07:27.008 Cause from a business value perspective, just on a holistic basic and I'll let you 00:07:27.008 --> 00:07:35.018 get into some of that, but, steady state, is always easier to understand, interpret 00:07:35.059 --> 00:07:37.788 and apply value to, and easier to buy. 00:07:38.323 --> 00:07:42.543 Because you, as a company that is potentially buying another company 00:07:42.543 --> 00:07:48.213 or a business, it's easier to know what you're getting, and surprises 00:07:48.333 --> 00:07:49.843 don't make anyone happy usually. 00:07:50.330 --> 00:07:50.480 Kevin: Yeah. 00:07:50.750 --> 00:07:53.540 We, have a saying in our office that surprises are only fun on your birthday. 00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:56.870 So you don't, you don't want that in an M&A discussion. 00:07:56.870 --> 00:07:58.460 But no, I think you're exactly right. 00:07:58.460 --> 00:08:02.240 Having the ability to predict more of a steady state performance is, 00:08:02.870 --> 00:08:04.400 really key to success in a deal. 00:08:04.873 --> 00:08:05.223 Victoria: Yeah. 00:08:05.363 --> 00:08:05.683 Awesome. 00:08:05.763 --> 00:08:07.343 So let's talk about valuation. 00:08:08.194 --> 00:08:08.693 Yeah. 00:08:09.003 --> 00:08:10.653 What are the current, where are we at? 00:08:10.723 --> 00:08:11.223 How about that? 00:08:11.223 --> 00:08:14.643 I'll just leave that more broadly is what's the current status evaluations? 00:08:14.683 --> 00:08:19.813 Because to your point everybody wants to know, you know How do I value my business? 00:08:19.813 --> 00:08:21.143 What markers can I use? 00:08:22.003 --> 00:08:24.603 What are you seeing in the world evaluations today? 00:08:24.865 --> 00:08:29.675 Kevin: Yeah, and so first and I know I've said this to you privately before, 00:08:29.795 --> 00:08:33.875 we get really sensitive using multiples because they're so easy to manipulate. 00:08:33.895 --> 00:08:38.615 And you really got to get very granular and specific to a particular company 00:08:38.615 --> 00:08:40.625 situation to really assess that. 00:08:41.396 --> 00:08:45.525 But I think, and this is in our newsletter as well, if you look at, yeah. 00:08:45.795 --> 00:08:50.005 We track an index of 100 public, materials and chemicals companies, and 00:08:50.005 --> 00:08:51.805 it's a very diverse mix of companies. 00:08:51.805 --> 00:08:55.015 This is like Ecolab and Dow and Sherwin Williams and PPG. 00:08:55.255 --> 00:09:01.265 it's very, diverse and you look at, where their public trading multiple 00:09:01.265 --> 00:09:03.865 is over a 10 year time period. 00:09:03.965 --> 00:09:07.005 That is, is right around 11.3 times. 00:09:07.015 --> 00:09:11.985 So over the past 10 years, this index has been, has traded at 11.3 times, which 00:09:12.005 --> 00:09:14.085 basically means you can buy that index. 00:09:14.105 --> 00:09:18.665 If you could sell it tomorrow, right now in December of 2024. 00:09:19.540 --> 00:09:23.450 The average for that index is almost identical to the 10 year average. 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:27.700 And so in, in my view, I would take that to read a, that means it's a 00:09:27.700 --> 00:09:29.880 pretty healthy market right now. 00:09:29.920 --> 00:09:35.000 And, I think that's where some of that optimism is that I was talking about 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:39.080 is, I don't think people always want to believe they can time the market 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.860 and go, should I sell when multiples are really high or when they're like, 00:09:41.970 --> 00:09:46.250 I don't think that's clearly possible, but I think it's a pretty healthy time. 00:09:46.760 --> 00:09:47.890 Now, I think. 00:09:48.485 --> 00:09:53.645 The, real area of how you drive higher multiples for a company. 00:09:53.645 --> 00:09:55.515 And this is in that category. 00:09:55.745 --> 00:09:59.935 If, you rewind the clock to almost a year ago today, I think you would 00:09:59.935 --> 00:10:04.605 have heard people say, I can't wait until 2023 is over and 2024 00:10:04.605 --> 00:10:06.125 is going to be so much better. 00:10:06.126 --> 00:10:06.750 And. 00:10:07.070 --> 00:10:10.840 I think 24 was probably okay for a lot of companies. 00:10:10.920 --> 00:10:13.250 More predictable, but just okay. 00:10:13.670 --> 00:10:17.980 And I think everyone wanted to believe it was going to be a really good 00:10:17.980 --> 00:10:19.440 year and I think it was just okay. 00:10:19.700 --> 00:10:22.550 People are saying the same things right now about 2025, and 00:10:22.550 --> 00:10:25.540 it's probably a little bit more believable than it was a year ago. 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:29.550 And, I think the key to really having that valuation driver 00:10:29.550 --> 00:10:30.880 be there is volume growth. 00:10:30.910 --> 00:10:34.830 That's an area where, you know, again, I think go back to all that supply 00:10:34.830 --> 00:10:38.710 chain stuff and margins moving all over the place, we've definitely seen. 00:10:38.935 --> 00:10:42.835 Very well run companies do very well from a profitability standpoint. 00:10:42.835 --> 00:10:45.385 And that, that, in my view, should command value alone. 00:10:45.385 --> 00:10:49.115 But showing the ability to organically grow volumes has been a little bit 00:10:49.115 --> 00:10:51.365 hard in the past 18 months, two years. 00:10:51.405 --> 00:10:54.385 And showing that is really, in my view, where you're going to 00:10:54.385 --> 00:10:55.865 start seeing values move back up. 00:10:55.865 --> 00:10:59.575 So healthy market, I think really to command a bit more of a premium, 00:10:59.575 --> 00:11:01.195 it's getting volume growth going. 00:11:01.668 --> 00:11:01.928 Victoria: Yeah. 00:11:01.928 --> 00:11:02.928 And that's a good perspective. 00:11:02.928 --> 00:11:03.648 And I think you're right. 00:11:03.648 --> 00:11:06.108 People would say 2024 was Okay. 00:11:06.148 --> 00:11:07.998 depending on where you sit in the market. 00:11:09.098 --> 00:11:14.198 second half was not as good as people would have wanted it to be, but it all, 00:11:14.468 --> 00:11:21.178 it's very market specific and use market specific and geography specific, right? 00:11:22.218 --> 00:11:23.768 which probably is of no surprise to you. 00:11:23.995 --> 00:11:24.185 Kevin: Yep. 00:11:24.395 --> 00:11:25.015 No, I think that's right. 00:11:25.095 --> 00:11:25.595 I think that's right. 00:11:26.078 --> 00:11:26.348 Victoria: Yeah. 00:11:26.588 --> 00:11:26.888 Awesome. 00:11:27.058 --> 00:11:31.643 And so when we think about, Maybe just the competitive landscape. 00:11:31.703 --> 00:11:38.163 Are you seeing more or less activity, whether it be from private equity, we 00:11:38.163 --> 00:11:43.403 talked prior to the call about, private equity, there had been quite a discussion 00:11:43.403 --> 00:11:45.753 about having a lot of dry powder, right? 00:11:45.753 --> 00:11:46.483 Is that the phrase? 00:11:47.033 --> 00:11:49.163 and capital ready to deploy. 00:11:49.363 --> 00:11:50.713 Are you still seeing that? 00:11:50.713 --> 00:11:52.443 Is there a lot of capital to deploy? 00:11:52.443 --> 00:11:54.363 Does that generate more activity? 00:11:54.603 --> 00:11:55.633 How does that translate? 00:11:55.634 --> 00:11:55.923 Yeah. 00:11:55.980 --> 00:11:56.880 Kevin: Yeah, I saw. 00:11:57.740 --> 00:12:04.650 let me maybe just say a few things and if I can start with just this time of year. 00:12:04.650 --> 00:12:10.120 So if you think December and January, it's not uncommon that we will have phone 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:16.685 calls with different organizations just to kind Hey, how's the year going for you? 00:12:16.685 --> 00:12:17.745 And what are you looking at? 00:12:17.765 --> 00:12:19.155 How's your M&A priorities? 00:12:19.885 --> 00:12:23.025 And the same in January when you start a new year, it's, hey, let's talk 00:12:23.035 --> 00:12:24.505 about what your goals are for the year. 00:12:24.845 --> 00:12:27.465 And so this isn't a private equity centric comment. 00:12:27.475 --> 00:12:34.150 It's more a, in 2024, we had, I think it's six or seven 00:12:34.230 --> 00:12:37.010 international companies come, to us. 00:12:37.030 --> 00:12:40.940 And instead of just give us an update on this is where we want to deploy 00:12:40.970 --> 00:12:44.910 resources from an M&A standpoint, literally walk us through almost 00:12:44.910 --> 00:12:48.705 like a two hour presentation of, Here is our whole M&A strategy. 00:12:48.706 --> 00:12:52.725 And we're very keen on building a stronger presence in North America. 00:12:52.725 --> 00:12:55.265 And some even came to Milwaukee to visit us and walk through 00:12:55.478 --> 00:12:55.828 Victoria: Wow. 00:12:56.145 --> 00:12:59.575 Kevin: And so when that competitive landscape question you ask, I go, I 00:12:59.725 --> 00:13:03.355 think you can read economists suggest that there's a lot of desire to 00:13:03.355 --> 00:13:05.450 deploy resources in North America. 00:13:05.530 --> 00:13:07.750 I feel like we're feeling that a bit. 00:13:07.760 --> 00:13:10.770 So I, think you do have a little bit more of an international poll 00:13:10.770 --> 00:13:13.160 to try and deploy resources here. 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:17.070 So that is one element of a competitive dynamic of, I just think there's more 00:13:17.070 --> 00:13:22.690 buyers in that bucket, I think from private equity, we have a chart that 00:13:22.690 --> 00:13:26.700 we used in a presentation that shows the number of equity funds has more 00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:28.680 than doubled in the past 10 years. 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:32.950 And that's just, a generic, the number of funds have doubled in the past 10 years. 00:13:33.595 --> 00:13:37.685 I think those interested in the chemical industry have probably tripled 00:13:37.685 --> 00:13:39.715 or quadrupled in the past 10 years. 00:13:39.765 --> 00:13:43.235 And that doesn't necessarily mean heavy reactive chemistries. 00:13:43.265 --> 00:13:48.285 It may be things like service oriented water treatment or distribution 00:13:48.305 --> 00:13:53.174 type businesses, or things like food ingredients or flavor that there's no, 00:13:54.098 --> 00:13:54.658 Victoria: Yeah. 00:13:54.728 --> 00:13:54.978 Why, 00:13:55.380 --> 00:13:55.590 Kevin: And 00:13:55.688 --> 00:13:57.238 Victoria: do you think that is? 00:13:57.508 --> 00:13:59.918 Why is there a bigger interest potentially 00:14:00.698 --> 00:14:01.498 in chemicals? 00:14:01.510 --> 00:14:03.450 Kevin: I think it's a really good question. 00:14:03.610 --> 00:14:07.200 And I think there's probably multiple answers to it. 00:14:07.280 --> 00:14:11.250 One of those, I think, is truly because people have seen other 00:14:11.250 --> 00:14:13.370 funds have success in the sector. 00:14:13.920 --> 00:14:17.830 and, there's a lot of smart people that work in private equity. 00:14:17.970 --> 00:14:22.915 And when you see someone have success Deploying resources and building, building 00:14:22.915 --> 00:14:25.565 a business and a successful exit with it. 00:14:25.955 --> 00:14:29.145 I think you get people who follow suit and I think that 00:14:29.145 --> 00:14:30.505 is, really driving some of it. 00:14:30.565 --> 00:14:36.855 And, and I think, over time, I think it used to be really hard a long time ago to 00:14:36.865 --> 00:14:41.215 get your head around and, Environmental dynamics, union exposure, commodity 00:14:41.215 --> 00:14:44.275 risk, and I think you've just gotten people who have gotten far, better on 00:14:44.275 --> 00:14:46.145 how to manage that in a transaction. 00:14:46.145 --> 00:14:49.495 And so that just, again, has led to successful investments, which other 00:14:49.495 --> 00:14:51.435 people see and they try to replicate. 00:14:51.435 --> 00:14:55.445 But truly though, if you go back to your original question, Victoria, you're 00:14:55.455 --> 00:14:59.715 seeing a lot more activity from private equity interest in the space and that 00:14:59.715 --> 00:15:03.315 does not mean a hundred percent of their resources are going to be invested here. 00:15:03.315 --> 00:15:04.805 It's probably a portion of their capital. 00:15:05.530 --> 00:15:12.090 And I think some estimates right now are maybe 100 or 150 businesses 00:15:12.090 --> 00:15:14.510 are owned by private equity funds. 00:15:14.510 --> 00:15:16.810 And a lot of those have buy and build strategies with them. 00:15:16.820 --> 00:15:21.540 So I think that competitive landscape question of you have international buyers 00:15:21.540 --> 00:15:24.990 who have an interest here, you're seeing more and more private equity funds who 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:26.710 have an interest to invest capital. 00:15:26.710 --> 00:15:30.920 You see The platform portfolio companies try and buy and build. 00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:34.050 That's not even talking about like the traditional strategic. 00:15:34.530 --> 00:15:37.950 And so I think it is a far more competitive environment 00:15:38.810 --> 00:15:40.150 than you've seen in the past. 00:15:41.051 --> 00:15:44.091 You would intuitively you think, that should make it a little 00:15:44.091 --> 00:15:46.051 bit easier to sell a company. 00:15:46.306 --> 00:15:49.216 I don't necessarily think that is accurate as well. 00:15:49.296 --> 00:15:52.136 I think buyers clearly recognize how competitive it is. 00:15:52.476 --> 00:15:56.786 and I think if they don't have a strong angle, they don't lean in hard. 00:15:56.786 --> 00:16:01.605 And so I think we have seen on deals that we've worked on where 10 years ago we 00:16:01.605 --> 00:16:04.226 might have gotten 30 bids for a company. 00:16:04.621 --> 00:16:07.331 The number of bids come down, but the quality of those 00:16:07.391 --> 00:16:08.861 bids, I think, tends to go up. 00:16:08.948 --> 00:16:09.318 Victoria: Yeah. 00:16:09.539 --> 00:16:11.059 So I want to come back on that point. 00:16:11.118 --> 00:16:16.058 But the point that strikes me is that if there are more companies interested 00:16:16.068 --> 00:16:18.178 in doing deals in North America. 00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:22.619 That to me says the price, the prices would go up. 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:25.839 Is that a fair assessment to you? 00:16:26.339 --> 00:16:29.529 And yet your multiples you're saying are comparable to where 00:16:29.529 --> 00:16:31.248 they were from a 10 year average. 00:16:31.248 --> 00:16:33.449 So that doesn't necessarily jive for me. 00:16:34.051 --> 00:16:34.271 Kevin: yeah. 00:16:34.271 --> 00:16:39.311 I think, again, that multiples over a 10 year period is pretty diversified. 00:16:39.311 --> 00:16:42.790 So you're including a whole mix of different commodity companies 00:16:42.820 --> 00:16:44.421 and highly formulated things. 00:16:44.421 --> 00:16:47.371 And so I, I think that index to me is more just. 00:16:47.826 --> 00:16:52.716 The health of where things are let alone like a specific multiple I think if you 00:16:52.716 --> 00:16:57.086 do look over time You will definitely see multiples just moving up and that whole 00:16:57.116 --> 00:17:02.315 asset inflation dynamic that's happened in every type of industry It has definitely 00:17:02.315 --> 00:17:07.515 shown itself But I think if you go look in and again, I don't want to continue 00:17:07.515 --> 00:17:11.400 to plug our newsletter But if you go look at the deal counts that I was talking 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:16.160 about before, it's not like there's that many more deals that are happening. 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:19.660 So 2024 there, it was a very good year in the number of deals. 00:17:20.390 --> 00:17:23.050 It's about the same as what it was in 2021. 00:17:23.050 --> 00:17:25.980 And what everyone thinks was a crazy M&A environment, which was 00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:29.635 about the same as, 2018 and 2019. 00:17:29.655 --> 00:17:33.065 So there's really not that many more deals and there's more and 00:17:33.065 --> 00:17:34.285 more people who are interested. 00:17:34.285 --> 00:17:38.345 So I think it does create a dynamic of it's probably a 00:17:38.345 --> 00:17:41.115 healthier valuation environment. 00:17:41.155 --> 00:17:46.591 But again, I, think, go back to my statement about the, It doesn't 00:17:46.621 --> 00:17:49.361 necessarily mean that it's easier to get through a deal, right? 00:17:49.711 --> 00:17:52.591 And I know some of the questions you wanted to go through are what 00:17:52.591 --> 00:17:53.971 advice you're giving clients today. 00:17:54.661 --> 00:17:58.071 every year since I have been doing this and I wouldn't say it's like a magical 00:17:58.430 --> 00:18:03.830 January one thing, like diligence, scrutiny just seems to get harder 00:18:03.831 --> 00:18:08.911 and harder and harder and so I think we're a broken record all the time of 00:18:08.941 --> 00:18:12.121 you need to be prepared, you need to be prepared, you need to be prepared. 00:18:12.716 --> 00:18:14.856 I think take how competitive that is. 00:18:14.856 --> 00:18:18.846 If someone does get pushed to the edge of what they can pay for something 00:18:18.846 --> 00:18:25.135 to be successful in a competitive M&A process, they don't want to be exposed 00:18:25.136 --> 00:18:26.466 to any risks they don't know about. 00:18:26.466 --> 00:18:29.435 And that just leads to incredible diligence scrutiny. 00:18:29.435 --> 00:18:32.536 And that is, again, I don't think it's ever going the other direction. 00:18:32.536 --> 00:18:36.616 I think diligence is going to continue to ramp up and, it's crippling at 00:18:36.616 --> 00:18:36.916 Victoria: times. 00:18:36.916 --> 00:18:39.879 Yeah, well, and I think it's a function of where we are from a 00:18:39.879 --> 00:18:42.089 risk and sophistication perspective, 00:18:42.089 --> 00:18:42.319 right? 00:18:42.329 --> 00:18:47.219 So I, look at it even from my experience working at Shell and clearance and stuff. 00:18:47.229 --> 00:18:50.599 And I remember at one point having conversations of, when we started 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:56.339 up some of these plants that were brand new in the, 60s, 70s, 80s, 00:18:57.009 --> 00:18:58.349 we were comfortable with learning. 00:18:58.899 --> 00:19:03.579 and yet today in a more sophisticated Environment you want to start up and 00:19:03.579 --> 00:19:08.389 you want to start up and have 95 percent operating rates and know exactly what 00:19:08.389 --> 00:19:10.569 you're doing So I think these parallels 00:19:10.596 --> 00:19:11.876 Kevin: And that's never going to happen, by the way, 00:19:11.944 --> 00:19:12.704 Victoria: that's never gonna happen. 00:19:12.924 --> 00:19:13.544 No, But 00:19:13.816 --> 00:19:14.636 Kevin: it's what you want. 00:19:14.764 --> 00:19:16.564 Victoria: yeah, they translate everywhere though. 00:19:16.574 --> 00:19:18.564 Everybody's a little bit more sophisticated. 00:19:18.914 --> 00:19:22.664 They want more certainty and that certainty leads to more diligence. 00:19:23.404 --> 00:19:29.449 So you started talking about the fact that there's actually fewer bids per 00:19:29.449 --> 00:19:33.959 deal, which maybe is contrary to the idea that there's a lot more people 00:19:33.969 --> 00:19:37.549 looking to, to enter the market to make deals in the North America. 00:19:38.589 --> 00:19:41.509 and yet it probably balances with these diligence requirements. 00:19:41.509 --> 00:19:42.609 Can you touch on that? 00:19:42.996 --> 00:19:48.326 Kevin: Yeah, I don't think the fewer is more the again, I'm going to use 00:19:48.386 --> 00:19:50.236 our terms and this is internal data. 00:19:50.246 --> 00:19:53.466 So I'm sure you could talk to someone else and they give you a different perspective 00:19:53.466 --> 00:19:54.876 and they go, No, we're getting more bids. 00:19:55.306 --> 00:19:59.401 I just think it felt like 10 years ago, if we were going to market with a 00:19:59.401 --> 00:20:02.921 company, you receive a fair number of bids that were, I'm going to put in the 00:20:02.921 --> 00:20:05.631 category of kick the tires type of thing. 00:20:05.631 --> 00:20:08.381 And let's see if we throw something out there and we'll stick. 00:20:08.931 --> 00:20:11.741 I just think buyers are smart enough now to go. 00:20:11.771 --> 00:20:15.141 It is that competitive of an environment that trying to do 00:20:15.141 --> 00:20:16.741 that is not a good use of time. 00:20:16.741 --> 00:20:20.651 And I think really it comes down to, do I have an angle? 00:20:20.806 --> 00:20:24.516 Do I really believe I'm the best owner of this company? 00:20:24.516 --> 00:20:26.496 And if I am, I'm going to lean in. 00:20:26.496 --> 00:20:29.296 I wouldn't quantify exactly how many are in the fewer. 00:20:29.296 --> 00:20:32.566 I just think you're starting to see dynamics where, at least on our 00:20:32.566 --> 00:20:35.906 projects, where when we do receive bids, they're, one more thought out. 00:20:36.444 --> 00:20:39.984 Victoria: and then does that imply that these are, these buyers tend to be far 00:20:39.984 --> 00:20:47.314 more strategic versus I, I guess I, my naive view of the world says, I think 00:20:47.314 --> 00:20:51.534 of PE perhaps as being less strategic, although I know that they would argue that 00:20:51.534 --> 00:20:55.884 they're very strategic and I, get all that versus somebody that says, Oh no, I want 00:20:55.884 --> 00:21:00.164 to go and get that asset because it's a perfect fit for the rest of my portfolio. 00:21:00.504 --> 00:21:01.874 How do you see that playing? 00:21:02.856 --> 00:21:04.866 Kevin: I think, so let me just say this. 00:21:04.916 --> 00:21:08.831 You had a question before about, What is the cash on the sideline? 00:21:08.831 --> 00:21:10.201 Or what are the war chests at Brendan? 00:21:10.871 --> 00:21:12.911 I think you can see some estimates. 00:21:12.931 --> 00:21:16.891 That's like a trillion dollars, and it's very hard to categorize a trillion 00:21:16.891 --> 00:21:18.491 dollars in one simple statement. 00:21:18.861 --> 00:21:23.671 What I would say is this, that when you think of a private equity fund 00:21:23.671 --> 00:21:27.791 who's interested in deploying capital in And material science or chemicals. 00:21:28.691 --> 00:21:32.341 Typically, they have been evaluating opportunities and interacting with 00:21:32.341 --> 00:21:35.051 executives and consultants for years. 00:21:35.111 --> 00:21:39.371 And so a lot of times when they see an opportunity, when you hear someone 00:21:39.371 --> 00:21:43.761 say, they are strategic in a sense, I think they can look at things and go, 00:21:44.346 --> 00:21:47.786 I've seen this, and this, and I could see an ability to put this together 00:21:47.786 --> 00:21:51.196 with that company, or I see that they have a hole and need to have an 00:21:51.196 --> 00:21:53.876 operation in this part of the country. 00:21:53.876 --> 00:21:59.156 And I think, I just think that type of mindset is, it's not just as simple as I 00:21:59.256 --> 00:22:01.276 look at EBITDA and I put a multiple on it. 00:22:01.296 --> 00:22:06.046 I think when I say they, they really, you're going to see a mindset that's more 00:22:06.046 --> 00:22:12.156 of, do we have an angle where we think we can add value beyond just, Just, dollars. 00:22:12.176 --> 00:22:15.286 I think that is what is changing. 00:22:15.634 --> 00:22:16.054 Victoria: Yeah. 00:22:16.436 --> 00:22:20.056 Kevin: and so I would not, take it as a it's more strategic in nature. 00:22:20.056 --> 00:22:22.116 I'd say it's it continues to be mixed. 00:22:22.794 --> 00:22:23.124 Victoria: Okay. 00:22:23.374 --> 00:22:23.804 Fair enough. 00:22:24.734 --> 00:22:25.634 So then, what do you 00:22:27.684 --> 00:22:30.074 I guess maybe what are the factors that you see in critical? 00:22:30.949 --> 00:22:35.269 when we're talking about M&A for, let's just take it 2025 and going forward, 00:22:35.626 --> 00:22:37.276 Kevin: Yeah, yeah, 00:22:37.409 --> 00:22:38.269 Victoria: can only go so 00:22:38.436 --> 00:22:41.566 Kevin: Yeah, I was gonna say, I can't go past Q1 of 25. 00:22:41.596 --> 00:22:44.426 So I'm going any further than that would hurt. 00:22:44.456 --> 00:22:50.306 But I feel like the number of one once in a lifetime events that have happened over 00:22:50.306 --> 00:22:55.736 the past four or five years is pretty, pretty hard to get your head around. 00:22:56.166 --> 00:23:01.076 from COVID to Texas freezes to hurricanes to wars. 00:23:02.186 --> 00:23:06.726 it's, really hard to envision a scenario where you go like every six months, 00:23:06.726 --> 00:23:10.036 we're going to have to deal with an industry dynamic that, that gets, 00:23:10.266 --> 00:23:11.616 that causes things to get flipped on 00:23:11.689 --> 00:23:14.329 Victoria: And by the way, we've got a potential port strike coming 00:23:14.329 --> 00:23:16.059 up in mid January as well, right? 00:23:16.089 --> 00:23:20.799 Again, another rare occurrence that doesn't feel so rare anymore. 00:23:21.171 --> 00:23:22.191 Kevin: And that's the stuff. 00:23:22.191 --> 00:23:26.051 So I always go to the what can you control? 00:23:26.141 --> 00:23:30.011 And when we ever sit down and talk to a seller, we always take a step 00:23:30.011 --> 00:23:33.701 back and go, how is the market and how is your business doing? 00:23:34.431 --> 00:23:38.811 and I think what hopefully I just mentioned for the last whatever 10 00:23:38.831 --> 00:23:45.111 minutes is, the market seems to be in a spot where it's pretty, pretty solid. 00:23:45.111 --> 00:23:46.491 And there's optimism there. 00:23:46.861 --> 00:23:50.521 I think the critical factors then really come down to drilling and 00:23:50.521 --> 00:23:54.221 specifics on your own business and where the business is at. 00:23:54.321 --> 00:24:00.051 And that to me is really the Key of does your business where it sits today? 00:24:00.051 --> 00:24:04.421 Dynamics going on within it get you to a spot where you would be happy with 00:24:04.431 --> 00:24:05.961 the transaction if you're a seller. 00:24:05.961 --> 00:24:10.391 And if the answer to that is yes, I think you have again a good market 00:24:10.431 --> 00:24:12.671 and a good, company situation. 00:24:13.291 --> 00:24:16.641 If you don't have both of those in the equation, I think it's a hard 00:24:16.641 --> 00:24:18.911 thing to look someone in the face and tell them that it's a good 00:24:18.911 --> 00:24:20.841 idea to entertain going to market. 00:24:20.851 --> 00:24:23.931 And I say that from a sense, Victoria, and this is where I go 00:24:23.931 --> 00:24:27.521 back to the, I'm worried about what I said in the 2023 podcast is 00:24:27.804 --> 00:24:29.184 Victoria: I'm sure you're consistent, 00:24:29.481 --> 00:24:29.931 Kevin: good. 00:24:30.664 --> 00:24:31.364 Victoria: I probably 00:24:31.511 --> 00:24:31.661 Kevin: know, 00:24:32.321 --> 00:24:37.391 but I do think there, in that timeframe, we were giving a fair number of people 00:24:37.391 --> 00:24:41.771 guidance of if you don't need to go to market, or if there is not some 00:24:41.771 --> 00:24:46.251 factor that is, forcing you to sell a company right now, you're better 00:24:46.261 --> 00:24:50.271 suited to just hold off and let some of this stuff play itself out. 00:24:50.681 --> 00:24:52.295 At that time, I'm sure we would have. 00:24:52.446 --> 00:24:55.166 Put some comment out there that goes the first question about your 00:24:55.176 --> 00:24:56.636 company when you go to market it. 00:24:56.636 --> 00:24:59.346 You don't want it to be Why are you doing this right now? 00:24:59.636 --> 00:25:04.406 And so so I think that Again, it's not really a critical thing I think 00:25:04.406 --> 00:25:08.766 it's more the you need to dig into specifics within a business and if 00:25:08.766 --> 00:25:12.996 they support You're going to get to an outcome that you feel is appropriate. 00:25:13.556 --> 00:25:13.986 it's a good time 00:25:14.324 --> 00:25:15.134 Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. 00:25:15.134 --> 00:25:19.424 And I think there's a lot of uncertainties, in the market still, right? 00:25:19.424 --> 00:25:22.554 So the chemical industry seems to be a bit more steady state. 00:25:22.634 --> 00:25:23.454 That is true. 00:25:24.444 --> 00:25:27.434 we know that there's a lot of strategic actions taking place with some of 00:25:27.434 --> 00:25:32.214 the biggies that have announced, some strategic changes in, their 00:25:32.214 --> 00:25:35.884 European portfolios in particular, and then how it plays out globally. 00:25:36.244 --> 00:25:40.174 We've got the new administration coming in, in January, which is going to. 00:25:40.774 --> 00:25:45.434 It's already, introducing some different variables into the equation. 00:25:45.434 --> 00:25:48.864 It's going to continue to do particularly, probably for at 00:25:48.864 --> 00:25:51.844 least for the first six months of the year, I would assume. 00:25:52.554 --> 00:25:59.124 and so would you offer the same advice of, think twice before you 00:25:59.124 --> 00:26:02.124 decide you're going to sell or just at least know what your story is? 00:26:03.046 --> 00:26:08.086 Kevin: yeah, I don't think it's like the again, I So let me 00:26:08.086 --> 00:26:09.126 just maybe share this insight. 00:26:09.446 --> 00:26:14.436 It's not uncommon when we are brought in to talk to a private company, a 00:26:14.436 --> 00:26:17.366 more of a private, privately held business, whether that's a family, a 00:26:17.366 --> 00:26:19.156 few shareholders, but truly private. 00:26:19.776 --> 00:26:23.306 A lot of time before, before I asked for guidance, it usually starts 00:26:23.306 --> 00:26:25.106 with, what do you think we should do? 00:26:25.156 --> 00:26:28.106 Which is very different than I'm ready to sell my company. 00:26:28.126 --> 00:26:29.136 Tell me how to do it. 00:26:29.836 --> 00:26:32.276 And, I think the, what do you think we should do has some elements 00:26:32.286 --> 00:26:34.606 in it of, is now a good time. 00:26:34.606 --> 00:26:37.086 And when you look at our business, are there some things that we 00:26:37.086 --> 00:26:39.916 should address before we entertain going to market with the company? 00:26:40.496 --> 00:26:43.366 and that goes back to my comment a few seconds ago. 00:26:43.976 --> 00:26:50.776 I think if you look at where optimism is at, and you look at that current market 00:26:51.026 --> 00:26:57.626 fundamentals, I think those things support there is, An active buyer pool out there. 00:26:58.236 --> 00:27:02.006 you really need to drill into specifics on a company to go is should you 00:27:02.006 --> 00:27:03.676 wait six months or three months? 00:27:04.266 --> 00:27:08.666 Some of that comes back to candidly, the volume thing is that I was talking 00:27:08.666 --> 00:27:13.226 about before of showing a little bit more traction on volume growth. 00:27:13.426 --> 00:27:17.556 If 25 ends up being a better year, I think unlocks so much more value for someone. 00:27:18.046 --> 00:27:20.806 and so I think those are the types of things of what opportunities 00:27:20.806 --> 00:27:23.046 are staring you in the face and how near term are they? 00:27:23.516 --> 00:27:26.946 But I will also take a step back and all of a sudden you can never thread 00:27:26.946 --> 00:27:29.295 a needle perfectly on these things. 00:27:29.296 --> 00:27:33.526 So thinking you can do that is going to just lead to a poor outcome. 00:27:33.626 --> 00:27:35.476 I think you can always then find a reason to go. 00:27:35.626 --> 00:27:36.666 i'll just wait six more months. 00:27:36.666 --> 00:27:37.966 I'll just wait six more months 00:27:38.066 --> 00:27:38.336 Victoria: Yeah. 00:27:38.926 --> 00:27:43.311 in, in what I think has been interesting in, I've worked with a number of 00:27:43.351 --> 00:27:46.601 private companies, and work with different leaders in different places. 00:27:46.621 --> 00:27:51.811 And there's a different lens often in terms of how they make decisions, right? 00:27:51.821 --> 00:27:57.461 They make a decision that they, it's probably a longer term view also often, 00:27:58.291 --> 00:28:01.051 and they make a decision, they figure out how to make it work and they just, 00:28:01.051 --> 00:28:04.581 you Do it because they're not beholden to shareholders every quarter in the 00:28:04.581 --> 00:28:08.531 same way that a public company is so I think that does drive some different, 00:28:08.931 --> 00:28:14.531 decision making and timing because the lens of judgment is different 00:28:15.833 --> 00:28:16.223 Kevin: I think that's right 00:28:16.991 --> 00:28:19.961 Victoria: So kevin, let's let's turn a little bit to leadership. 00:28:20.551 --> 00:28:25.211 because I like to always ask this question of folks What advice do you have for 00:28:25.211 --> 00:28:27.321 somebody who's early or mid career? 00:28:27.941 --> 00:28:31.941 that would like to keep Get into investment banking and deal making and 00:28:31.951 --> 00:28:33.361 do a little bit of what you're doing. 00:28:33.361 --> 00:28:38.446 Yeah. 00:28:38.588 --> 00:28:38.998 Kevin: career, 00:28:42.308 --> 00:28:46.668 but, at some point in time, you are, you're seems like you're 00:28:46.668 --> 00:28:47.968 like, I'm the old person. 00:28:47.968 --> 00:28:50.238 Now I'm supposed to have some advice to give people. 00:28:51.418 --> 00:28:56.238 anyways, I think getting into investment banking, I think that is so much 00:28:56.288 --> 00:28:58.168 easier to do early in your career. 00:28:58.458 --> 00:29:01.278 It's tricky to do when you're further along in your career. 00:29:01.278 --> 00:29:05.498 And I think that is really just comes down to the basics of deal execution 00:29:05.498 --> 00:29:07.388 and understanding all of that. 00:29:08.108 --> 00:29:13.658 having a foundation when you're younger is really, much, easier to do. 00:29:13.968 --> 00:29:19.198 I think what has changed is there is so much of a fight for talent these days 00:29:19.238 --> 00:29:23.048 that it used to be like to become an associate in an investment bank, you need 00:29:23.048 --> 00:29:24.968 to have an MBA and do all these things. 00:29:25.038 --> 00:29:29.028 I think that has changed and I can't speak to how large bulge bracket 00:29:29.048 --> 00:29:32.378 banks do all their recruiting stuff, but I think the rules have very much 00:29:32.378 --> 00:29:34.418 changed over the past several years. 00:29:34.458 --> 00:29:39.038 And so I go to the if you want to get an investment banking starting early 00:29:39.038 --> 00:29:41.228 in your careers is a bit easier to do. 00:29:41.228 --> 00:29:45.908 I think if you want to be in deal making and you want to be maybe not 00:29:46.008 --> 00:29:50.018 on the advisory side, but active within an operating company, for 00:29:50.018 --> 00:29:53.898 instance, I think it's trying to find a way to navigate in this. 00:29:53.958 --> 00:29:57.408 We get this question quite frequently from different professionals where 00:29:57.408 --> 00:29:59.878 they go, I was, I work in this company. 00:29:59.878 --> 00:30:03.118 I'm a marketing manager for insert the blank, and I was pulled in on 00:30:03.128 --> 00:30:06.388 diligence for a deal that we are working on, and I'd really like to know 00:30:06.388 --> 00:30:07.948 how I could get more active and deal. 00:30:07.958 --> 00:30:12.788 So I think trying to get into your corporate development group is really 00:30:12.818 --> 00:30:14.908 another path to, get into deal making. 00:30:15.543 --> 00:30:19.663 The challenge there can be some companies have a corporate development 00:30:19.663 --> 00:30:21.773 group and they don't do a lot of M&A. 00:30:22.133 --> 00:30:24.853 And so you'll find some frustration to go I'm in this group. 00:30:24.853 --> 00:30:27.593 We evaluate our opportunities and we just don't do a lot. 00:30:28.153 --> 00:30:30.923 I think if you're really wanting to be in dealmaking, you got to find 00:30:30.923 --> 00:30:34.663 yourself in an organization that views M&A as a core pillar as part of 00:30:34.663 --> 00:30:39.803 their strategy, and then, you're in a spot where you will be, a bit more 00:30:39.803 --> 00:30:41.543 active in terms of true dealmaking. 00:30:41.663 --> 00:30:41.903 Victoria: Yeah, 00:30:41.903 --> 00:30:45.653 So in, so you have an MBA, as I recall, am I right? 00:30:45.903 --> 00:30:48.013 and that's actually the pivot point for you. 00:30:48.285 --> 00:30:49.055 Kevin: that was Correct. 00:30:49.233 --> 00:30:49.613 Victoria: Yeah. 00:30:50.013 --> 00:30:53.203 So, do you still see it as a viable pivot point for 00:30:53.203 --> 00:30:56.813 people coming out of maybe what's considered operating roles and then 00:30:56.813 --> 00:30:58.273 moving into investment banking? 00:30:58.273 --> 00:30:59.583 Is that still legit? 00:30:59.815 --> 00:31:06.755 Kevin: I think that is still very much the case I think if you do recall Victoria, 00:31:06.755 --> 00:31:11.075 like I still even had a backdoor way into this I wasn't intending to get 00:31:11.075 --> 00:31:15.245 into financial services I met our two co founders and more wanted to meet their 00:31:15.245 --> 00:31:19.715 clients that I did want to work and transactional work I think that still was 00:31:19.715 --> 00:31:25.425 very much a common path investment banking is going to business school and using 00:31:25.435 --> 00:31:28.025 that as a launching pad to make a change 00:31:29.153 --> 00:31:29.453 Victoria: Awesome. 00:31:29.853 --> 00:31:30.673 Kevin, thank you. 00:31:30.743 --> 00:31:32.763 Thanks for taking time to talk with us today. 00:31:32.763 --> 00:31:34.053 I really appreciate your insights. 00:31:34.405 --> 00:31:34.915 Kevin: Yeah, thank you. 00:31:35.015 --> 00:31:35.275 Victoria. 00:31:35.275 --> 00:31:36.055 It's good to see you 00:31:36.173 --> 00:31:36.623 Victoria: Absolutely. 00:31:36.623 --> 00:31:38.003 And thank you everyone for joining us. 00:31:38.003 --> 00:31:40.363 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:31:40.363 --> 00:31:41.893 talk with you again soon.