The Recruitment Hackers Podcast

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Summary

Elaine Davis talks about the shift from working at Conduent to its smaller carve-out Continuum, and how the problems in Talent Acquisition remain the same. She makes a compelling case for recruitment as a main revenue engine for call centers.

Show Notes

Max: Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast, a show about innovation, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry. Brought to you by Talkpush, the leading recruitment automation platform.

Hello everybody. And welcome to the Recruitment Hackers podcast with Max. Today. I'm pleased to welcome Elaine Davis, Chief Human Resources Officer at Continuum who is going to tell us about her 25 years of experience in the industry. And we'll focus a little bit on the recent crisis we've been through and how it's affected the talent acquisition team at Continuum, and her experience working with some of the largest high volume employers in the world. 

Elaine has worked with Conduit, Xerox, JSK, and has vast experience in sourcing, and the art of sourcing at scale —, which is how we started our, email exchange, Elaine. So to kick things off, welcome to the show, Elaine. Great to have you here. 

Elaine: Thank you, max. Appreciate it. 
Max: So, would you mind starting off by telling us a little bit about Continuum? (your current company). 

Elaine: Oh , yeah.  So continuum began life as a carve out from a larger company called Conduent. And, Continuum has been standing on its own,  since February, 2019.  It's primarily the customer care business from the Conduent company. Conduent had been a carve out from  Xerox, a huge company.

And I was with Xerox at that time. And with Conduent. I left Conduent right after it actually became a standalone company itself in 2017 and took a couple of years off. Did some work in venture capital and got interested in HR...  

Yeah, well, the HR, well… I enjoyed the venture capital space.  I was sort of the firm’s expert in HR technology, the HR technology space, where there's a lot of really interesting things happening, particularly in talent acquisition
.
And then I got a call from the folks that were carving out Continuum and they asked  if I'd  come back into a more standard corporate role and  set up the HR timekeeping, payroll and communications functions for Continuum. So I said, yes. 

Max: Timekeeping, payroll and Talent Acquisition.

Elaine: And all of HR. 

And, Oh, I also run communications, which is the fun part of my job. 

Max: Great. Well, I'm happy that you got to experience basically, kind of like, can we say that you went from a bigger, to a smaller, to a smaller company? Are you, are you feeling that, you're moving towards the more human sized organizations over the last 20 years?

Elaine: You know, the problems and the issues and the things that need to be solved for are the same, no matter what size the company is. You know. It's all human behavior related and it's all revenue related. So what I would say is fun about being in a smaller company and we're about, 15 to 16 thousand people or so, about a half a billion in revenue.

It’'s fun to sort of own a big piece of that. So, I mentioned various planks in my world. Right? It's a lot, but it's manageable, for me. And, I get to impact a whole, a pretty big swath of daily operations in the company, and that's fun. And some of my previous experiences with big companies, I had great jobs and was working with great people. But, boy, it's hard to turn a big ship around. 

Max: Well, 15,000 it’s pretty massive already. That's what you said, 15 to 16 K was this headcount and Continuum today?

Elaine: Yeah, we, we go up and down seasonally. We have some pretty big healthcare clients and there's a portion of their year where they're doing healthcare open enrollment.
And so we increase our head count to support them on a seasonal basis so we can get up to 18,000 depending on the client and the time of the year. 

But to me, it feels small because when I was at Xerox, it was over a hundred thousand then, at Glaxo Smith Kline. we were over a hundred thousand, so 15 to 18 seems very small to me.

Max: Okay. Well, one day I hope Talkpush can...  I don't know if we want 15,000 employees, but if we could have 15,000 users, that'll be a good start, you know, at least two years before we get there.  

Well for our listeners who aren't familiar with the concept of a carve out, this is when a company’s shareholders decide they’re going to take a piece of the business and it's going to run better on its own than it does as part of the mothership.

And you’re part of two carve-outs, but within the same group. So that's pretty unique experience in itself. Can you share with me, what do you think is, you know, maybe the specifics are deal by deal, but what do you think is the motivation behind a carve out? Is it  a size question where you think you run better and faster at 15 K, then you run at 50?

Elaine: I really can't pretend to understand the motivation of the carve-outs other than it's financially driven. And I think it has more to do with stripping out underperforming assets.  So that the company left behind can, focus on it's,  I guess I use an old nineties word, you know, core competencies,  in the Conduit,  Continuum carve-out, Customer Care business was not performing and Conduit wanted to strip it out and let it stand on its own.

It's actually been a great business on its own and not weighed down by the larger infrastructure of a big company. You know, you're right. I've been part of some interesting transactions. When I was first at Glaxo, in the United States, we did a hostile acquisition of a company called Burroughs Wellcome company, also a British pharmaceutical. That was quite a ride. And then Glaxo merged with SmithKline Beecham. That was a wild ride. Massive, pharmaceutical engines coming together to try to build research pipelines and get drugs on market, faster deal with the patent expirations, which were financially devastating for a lot of the pharmaceutical companies.

So I've been involved in some interesting transactions.  Almost always in an HR tech and HR technology role, sometimes in a commercial role. I've done Commercial Strategy and Marketing for businesses as well. So through all of it, I mean, I've had great opportunities to understand the levers of  profitability.

And big or small, I mean, in the end, you're trying to solve the same problems and that's even true in Talent Acquisition. Big or, small, you know, you have to make your way in a crowded field of employers and figure out a way to differentiate yourself, attract the best people and make their onboarding as gentle as possible,  and to get them as productive as possible. And particularly in the call center business, that is super important because after you've hired people, you're training them. And that entire time that you've got people that you've hired, onboarded and you're training them, you're not generating any revenue off of that.

That's an expense that a call center company has. It has to shoulder until you can get that person on the phone or on a chat or whatever, to start driving, to start building revenue. 

Max: I heard somebody told me that if the new hire, the agent, in a call center environment stays there for three months, that's long enough to pay for the hire. Anything beyond that is where the margin starts  to be generated. 
Elaine: That's probably about right. Actually. But I will say that, I have been very focused on driving down cost per hire. I actually had to laugh the other day because at first I thought it was a joke, but somebody... I get a lot of... everybody, all your listeners and you get a lot of marketing emails right?

And I got one from a company that wanted to tell me that they could help me hire a call center agents at the low, low price of a thousand dollars per hire. And I actually thought it was funny because I can hire — my metrics are under a $100 dollars per hire. So yeah. So, because everybody counts things differently.

Max: Yeah. I need to make sure we're counting the same thing here because a hundred dollars… Are we talking marketing cost per hire or total cost per hire?

Elaine: I am talking,  marketing and assessment and background investigation per hire. Yeah. 

Max: Amazing. Which geography?

Elaine:  This is U.S.

Max: Wow. 

Elaine: Yeah,  it can actually be more expensive, not in U.S dollars, but it can be a little pricier on a cost per hire basis than some of the international markets, because some of the backgrounding is more extensive and much more expensive to actually run.


Max: Well,  I think that's a great metric. It seems that,  you know, given that we're entering a recession or in the middle of a recession, that people will take another look at cost as a driver for decision.  But of course, bringing the cost down also means that you can hire from a broader pool and you can be a little bit more picky, perhaps. It's a lever to increase quality, eventually, and retention, which as you were saying is the real cost of the business, because you've got high turnover. So if you bring the cost down, then, you know, a wider funnel means the whole journey benefits from it. 

Elaine: So you're absolutely right. That's insightful. You understand what I'm doing. I have a huge funnel. The other day.... and we're not in a rapid, robust hiring phase right now, today. We will be ramping up shortly, but right now we've come through the pivot. Out of the brick and mortar to people's homes and establishing our work at home model and trying to keep things reasonably stable.  So we haven't been doing a lot of hiring,  I think in June,  we need to hire just in the United States, around 6 or 700 people.

That's not a lot for us. I checked into our lead flow and we have 14,000 leads. So,  That's a lot to hire 5 or 600 people. Right. So the funnel is wide open.  And you're right. That is what helps me get to— there's  goalposts or gates along the way. Right.  If you're going to talk, you know,  we're going to make it super easy to connect with us. Super, super simple. Whereas, you know, we have quick apply. We're scraping an XML feed. We are contacting you within seconds of you showing interest in us. Literally. I have a very, very rapid response. And then there's some gate posts, right? You got to schedule an interview with us and you gotta show up for the interview. And then assuming  you get through that and it's not terribly difficult to get through it, to be honest.
You've got to go through our assessment process. 

So people start to self select out. They don't want to do those things. It's not as easy as they thought it was going to be, they maybe don't want to take an assessment. So people start to self select out. But if I'm doing all those things right, and I have enough at the top of the funnel, I'm going to end up with, you know, I overfill classes every week. 

So in call center, you're hiring training classes, right?  So you might have a training class, I think we have one starting on July 6th. We have 400 people starting, so I'll hire 480. I'll actually hire and onboard that many because, you know, the final gate post is, or mile marker, or whatever we call it is people actually showing up for the training, right.

They actually need to show up, pass their drug screen, pass the background and they have to show up. So there's a lot of ways that people can fall out along the way. So I absolutely have to have that funnel wide open with a big pool of people. So I can end up with the people that I need at the very end.

Max: Yeah. you can,  you know, get mad and scream yourself,  mute, at candidates for not showing up and dropping out. But, you can also accept the fact that, well, I mean, these are positions, which are not necessarily, you know, long term career plans and it's okay to get some dropout. You got to build around that. So completely agree with you.  

I'm still trying to digest your $100 dollars cost per hire. I remember seeing those studies that said that even for call center employees, a $1000 dollars cost per hire was the industry norm just a few years ago. And obviously being in a in a buyer's market, if you're an employer where there's going to be a lot more job seekers out there in this market today we’re, you know, in the middle of a global recession.  But, then of course there were all these other factors.
So where do you think you got to, how did you, I mean, first of all, was a thousand dollars per hire, ever a number that was reasonable to you, at some point in your 25 year history in talent acquisition?

Elaine: I can tell you that when I was with Xerox. When Xerox owned what became Conduent, Xerox had about 140,000 people in the company.

This is a short several years ago, right. And 100,000 of those were BPO people. And the other 30,000 were the traditional document technology business, right, that we all think of. When we think about Xerox, we think about the machine, right.  And the paper. But, a 100,000 of that was a very big BPO company.

And I ran a lot of the HR business for that company and I ran Talent Acquisition. And  we processed a million candidates in a 12 month period, candidates, applicants to end up with about 85,000 hires. And  we were probably spending more than a thousand dollars per hire. It was such an overwhelming huge business and I was running it, so I can say this, we weren't doing it well. We didn't have control of our financials. We didn't know what we were spending. It was really super messy. Right? It was messy.

Max: You said 85,000 hires and a $1,000 dollars per hire. That's like $85 million dollars.

Elaine: Well, you know, it was geographic. So in the U S we were spending a thousand dollars to hire, but in other geographies, we were not spending that much. I mean, my budget wasn't quite 85 million, but it was very, very large and I never felt like I really had control of the process anywhere in the world.
It was messy. It was a huge company. And then of course, Xerox divested that. And then it was divested again. So, you know, it's hard to keep track of all of the numbers. That's maybe why the shareholders were not happy.
 
Max: Well,  I've had many opportunities to sell to companies because Finance or Procurement was looking into TA and thinking “I don't know where the money is going.”

Elaine: It's a mess. And I'll say one of the things that I really appreciated about being part of a carve out. So we're, we're owned by a private equity firm in Los Angeles called Skyview Capital. And the people in that firm they're sort of industry and function agnostic.

They have a variety of companies that they either own, or they're heavily invested in from food processing to a cold brew coffee company, to our company, a security company. It's interesting. It's kind of all over the map. And what's been great about being part of that experience is that they're just trying to solve problems and make money.

So when I joined about a year ago, the company Continuum had been stood up for a couple of months, had been carved out and they were trying to get their arms around it and figure out what the business model was and how we were making money. Or if we were making money and how things were working. And the first thing they saw was that the recruiting engine was broken. And how they figured that out is because the revenue engine was sputtering.
And that's because in the call center business, if you don't have people in the center to answer the phone, you're not going to make any money. Recruiting drives everything. 

Max: You get penalties. Penalties for being slow to hire. 

Elaine: Oh, sure you do. Yeah. So recruiting is the revenue engine. You need the people in the seats answering the calls or you're not going to make any money. So they very quickly saw that when I joined, they were laser focused on how do you hire people in this environment? And they were not HR people. They weren't Talent Acquisition people. They were smart people, some with deep technology backgrounds and they just tore the thing apart and said, we're going to solve this problem one step at a time. And they did, and they helped us build a really phenomenal lead generation machine, an AI based machine that we use. And I think it's our competitive secret sauce I can hire faster and cheaper than any of my competitors.

Absolutely. Hands down every day, all day long. 

Max: And something I've noticed as well. Some of my hardest, and I mean that in a complimentary manner, hardest customers to work with are those who do not come from an HR and TA background, but who come from Operations or Finance. Because they're like, everything's on the table, right? Why are we doing this assessment? Why are those two things not merged together? Do you really need to ask 10 questions, etc, etc. Why aren't we spending more time on this channel? That's more cost effective, but I guess it's the cost of like these relationships, right? When, if you're in one place for too long.
Elaine: You know I've spent  a lot of hours at this company trying to reshape how we do business. And I thought I knew how to do transformations because as a veteran of big companies, you know, you're going to go through one or two transformations. And, I never felt like a lot got accomplished by any of them in the really big companies I was part of. They were just a lot of PowerPoint decks and consultants in the room. 

And what's been interesting about this experience has been working with our owners, our private equity owners and people that they've brought in to help.  Yeah, in the beginning they would say to me, well, I said, you know what?
This is an advertising problem. We have a recruitment marketing problems. So I'm going to go solve our recruiting issue with recruitment marketing tools and advertising. And I need to hire this advertising firm and that one. And they said, hold up. No, we're not convinced it's an advertising problem. You need to prove that to us. 

So we went through a lot of exercises of me trying to prove what I believed because of my long background in Talent Acquisition and in HR. And I was wrong. They showed me how my thinking really was kind of mired in what my background was and what my belief system was.

And they showed me that just by walking through and solving problem by problem at a very detailed and basic level, I came to different conclusions. And that was hard. 

Max: You just told us Elaine that you have a huge front of the funnel. And hence, naturally if advertising was not the secret sauce, the secret to making this, wide funnel work, where are you getting all those leads, for so cheap?
Elaine: Well, I think that we had advertising, but we weren't capturing. The game now — everybody knows how to generate leads. The game now is converting. It’s assessing and converting. So we now run contests as we've moved from using our recruiting engine in the U.S to our other markets, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Netherlands, Jamaica. We run games with our recruiters to show who can convert the most at quality. 

So  what we did was we simply moved the problem down the body of the snake, right. In the beginning, we weren't getting leads. So then we got a bunch of leads and then we had to figure out, okay, how do we convert them?
So we worked on converting them. And then we thought, oh gosh, we need to convert the right people. So we worked on assessment, so we just keep moving the problem further down our snake. You know, now we're kind of through, we've gotten through getting the right people. We've got great assessment metrics in place. We reshaped our backgrounding, to lower the barrier, but not the bar for us to bring people in. 

One thing about the call center business and one of the reasons I like it is that it's a first opportunity for a lot of people to, you know, to put food on the table for their families all over the world. It's an entry level opportunity for people that don't have a lot of opportunities. 

Max: it's not sexy for people who have been a few years in their career necessarily. Although you do have veteran call center agents as well. Yeah, but it's easy to forget, you know, what it's like to be a 20 year old coming out of school. I mean I  was paralyzed at the thought of picking up the phone and talking to somebody just 15 years ago. It seems completely insane to me, but you know, I remember that. 
Elaine: Yeah, and in some countries, it's the difference between what stands in front of them and, and starvation. I mean, it really is.

It's an opportunity for people in developing countries who don't have any opportunity, particularly women to put food on the table. And it's also a job that can be a second chance for somebody. And there's no shame in being an employer who can offer somebody a second chance.

it's not a glamorous sexy job, but we have some examples in the company of people that have gone from basic call center agents to Supervisors, Operations Managers, they switch over to training. They come into recruiting. 

Max: I've loved it. I've been dealing with this industry for four or five years now.
And, I feel absolutely inspired by, you know, the fact that it drives the launch of so many careers and it helps so many families. So I love it. I love just the high volume space for that reason. It's just how many people can you impact. 

And I wanted to ask you about the recent experience with the work from home transition, and how it's affected the morale of your team, of people who are not driving to work anymore, working from their PJ's shaving, et cetera. Are you starting to feel, you know, the weight of this lockdown affect the morale or if people are just  finding it beautiful, the new normal?

Elaine: From a corporate standpoint, you know, my global HR, payroll, etc. teams we've almost always worked remotely. when Conduent released this company, when it was carved out, we didn't really have headquarters. And people just worked where they worked.

They left their office at Conduent and moved into their homes. So from an exempt perspective, we've all been home for quite a long time and we know how to work that way in Recruiting and Talent Acquisition. We're in a cloud. 

My recruiters are all over the world and the model that I'm running is, if I have a lot of volume coming into the U.S, a lot of leads coming in, and my U.S team is asleep, then my Jamaican team will pick that up and do the interviews or my Philippines. So I'm running a kind of 24 hour global model for grabbing those leads and converting them. So we were very accustomed to that, but ...

When COVID hit us in early March in the U.S, so the leadership, most of the leadership is in the U.S. Initially we felt kind of paralyzed. We weren't sure what to do or what was going to happen, but we quickly realized that we needed to get everybody out of those centers and home before we were told to — all over the world, and we have 14 locations, Europe, Asia, etc, like our competitors do.

And everybody was sort of working that from a different angle. How much revenue can we save? How much, you know, what kind of profitability can we gain? What do we have to do with managing our clients? What are they thinking? And I was kind of focused on what do we have to do to make sure that these people can continue to put food on the table?

That was where I came from. I wanted to make sure — and I made sure people knew it. So when we told staff around the world, come to the center today and be prepared to walk out with your computer and, you know, whatever else they needed to be productive at home. I made sure that they understood that we're doing this because your health and safety and your ability to generate an income to take care of your family is the most important thing to this company. And if we do all those things right, and support you, the revenue and the profitability are going to come. 

And you know what, I wasn't even sure I believed that myself in the beginning, because it was so chaotic and it was so hard in the Philippines, they were shutting everything down. We had to hire vans to get people out of the centers, with their computers. We had to send people out to people's homes. People were locked in their homes. It felt chaotic to me. But for me as an HR professional, I just kept focusing on what do I have to do to make sure these folks can buy what they need to feed their families? 

And I made sure people knew it and I think it really helped coalesce our company around that feeling that, yes, it's not a cliche, we really are in this together and we're going to help you so that you can help our customers. And by doing that, we're all going to get through this one way or the other. 

Max: I think it sounds like I went through the same thing you did.  And for me it was really helpful that I was, you know, I was a professional when 2000 and 2009, the 2000-2001 crisis, and then 2008. As the world falls down around you, and we hadn't had a real crisis of this magnitude since 2008, then you can, you can be a rock, even if you don't a hundred percent believe in it as the walls are falling down. 

Elaine: Yeah. I thought about, there's that sort of famous Ted talk by Anne Cuddy. Who's a Researcher. I think she's a linguist. I could be wrong, but I think she's a linguist and she uses that term, fake it till you make it.

So I just kept thinking, we're going to get through this. Everybody's going to keep a job. We're going to be able to meet payroll. We're going to be able to service our customers. And I just kept saying, this is where we’re going. You know, in a crisis, you got to pick a direction and march and just go and bring as many people with you as you can.

And then the other great saying is, of course, never let a good crisis go to waste. So we used the crisis to go back to our customers and say, look, we’re a work-at-home company now. And everything we do from now to the foreseeable future, which could be tomorrow, actually the way things are going, we're going to just be making that model more robust. And we're going to change how we hire and who we hire. Now we're looking for people who are perfectly happy to work at home, as opposed to people that are doing it because they have to.

So we just took that first mover position and said, we're a work-at-home company, and this is how we're going to do it. As opposed to, sometimes in call center, you kind of get told by your customer how you're going to do things, how you're going to hire — there's a lot of rules. It's a commoditized business. The providers don't have a lot of say, and we've had a little bit of opportunity to say, look, we pivoted faster than any of your other channel partners. And this is true. It's a true statement. We pivoted faster. So, we're moving down this road really quick and come with us and we'll be the better for it.

Max: Nice.  I think that this crisis has also been an opportunity for us where some companies were waiting to do digital transformation, kind of sitting and waiting for a reason because you can only really take on one or two big transformation initiatives every year. And they were, you know, that gave them the extra nudge.
So we got, obviously things slowed down to almost a standard standstill in March and April. But since then, you know, we're having some good discussions. 

One thing, I guess, how do you adapt your recruitment process to hire work-from-home agents? I guess you're looking for, you said, the more autonomous people. Maybe check their internet speed? Any other tips and advice on how to adapt the recruitment process for work from home. 

Elaine: Well, you got to make decisions about — so just focusing on the United States, you know, where we had, I think, 13 or so locations, just in the U.S. So we were very limited to these geographic markets. And most of them are where our competitors are too.

So El Paso, big center for us, we have a thousand people, 1300 people in the center and all of our competitors are right down the road from us. So that drives a certain way of recruiting and a certain way of thinking about retention and a certain amount of kind of looking around the corner to see what your competitor’s doing and what kind of taco truck they're bringing in that day.
So in the beginning when we started to think about hiring, we thought, well, gosh, we should just still hire around those locations because what if we go back, we don't want to have people all over Texas, we want them near El Paso. And then we, pretty quickly, threw that out the window and said, forget it, we're a work-at-home company now. 

So, you know, we went through a process of looking at the various states that had attractive labor markets, attractive tax implications. Like any company, we ran the gamut of where we want to hire, where we want to try to source candidates from and we came up with some pretty interesting things. 

Max: So you went full, work from home.

Elaine: Pretty much. Yeah. But we're staying away from the coasts, you know, because those are expensive places to do business. And we have a lot of data about where the people are, the kind of people that we think would be happy working for us and want to stay with us. And we've got a lot of data on how they want to be paid and we're kind of playing with some of those models. And we're offering different money and incentives in different metro areas or in different rural areas. I mean, we're playing with a lot of information.
 
Max: I'd like to point you to,  I'll send you the link. I'll put it for our listeners too, the link, the link to the salary grading. I mean, I think they phased it out, but there was a company called Buffer, which specialized in social media  blasting and communication. They were work-from-home from inception and they had a salary grid that was per state. They would openly share to all of their employees, you know, for the same exact role, same exact expertise. Your salary is going to be 20% more because you’re based here. 

And the transparency is something that is part of their core values. So it works for them, but basically they even, I think they still do to this day, publish the salaries of every one of their employees online.

Elaine: That's a bridge too far for me. I've always been in favor of salary transparency in terms of showing people what the range is, showing what the midpoint is showing what the geographic differential is. I've always said that companies should do this. But I've also always said that people shouldn't do performance ratings.

I've never believed in performance ratings and I still don't. Assigning a number to people based on how they perform is just not something I've ever been interested in. But that's a different discussion.

Max: Yes. Agreed it's a different discussion. I have already taken a good chunk of your time. And I really think we got a lot of great insights there about,  BPO industry and thank you for sharing. I wanted to ask you one last question, which is if there's one area where you feel like there's still some automation left? I mean, it sounds like you've built such a great automated journey for your candidates. And you've talked about how you kind of started at the front of the funnel and then, you know, eventually tried to automate screening and then improve the quality of the people's screens so that you improve retention. 

Now as you look through this entire end to end journey, is there still some pockets of opportunity? What's the next piece that you want to automate, or you want to accelerate? 

Elaine: The part that I'm not doing yet is you know, the integration of the technical components of Talent Acquisition can always be improved. There's a lot of people out there building interesting stuff and trying to connect it to ATSs.

And that's all pretty interesting, but I'm kind of, I feel like I've kind of moved beyond that. What I need to do. And I think all Talent Acquisition professionals should be thinking about is, following that lead through conversion to trainee, to productive employee and tying. I can't really know. I shouldn't be tracking cost per hire if I'm doing this right.

What I should be tracking is value per hire. So how that person that I scraped off of an indeed quick apply site, how much value did that person bring to my company? That's what I should be tracking. I'm tracking the wrong thing. Because it's the easy thing to track. But if I'm doing all these things right, and I'm going to the right places to source my people, I'm training them effectively. I also have operational training, so all of those new hires come to me to be trained to answer phones for our customer service chat or whatever. I should be able to point to what's the value of that class that I started on July 6th, six months later, what value did they drive for my company?

And I should be able to prove that. So that's what I'm thinking about next. Right? 

Max: We've got to find a name for this magical number.

Elaine: Yes. 

Max: We have the CPH, CPL marketing CPH, MCPS. Now we need to have...

Elaine: Yeah, but isn't that the end? I mean, that’s the end game, right? What value did that lead that I converted bring to our company and how do I express that value? That's that's the name of the game. That's what I'm trying to do. We're trying to make money. We're trying to be profitable. So I have to distill that. And that will really tell me whether I've been successful with that front of the funnel or not. 

I'm measuring it along the way, but the end game still hasn't been answered and I'd like to get there before the next crisis. I'd like to know the answer to that question soon. 

Call me in a year. 

Max: I will and I thank you.  And I want to end it on this positive note and your contagious laughter. And thinking about, it's wonderful that you're already thinking about the next crisis, so thanks for your time. Thanks for sharing.
And we'll be in touch in a years time. 

Elaine: Thanks, max. Good to see you.

Max: There you have it. That was Elaine Davis, Chief Human Resources Officer at Continuum with some awesome insights on how to build a recruitment marketing machine that delivers thousands of hires at less than a hundred dollars cost per hire in North America. What a performance. Thank you, Elaine, for all your insights.

And I hope you enjoyed the show. Please, if you didn’t, subscribe to the recruitment hackers podcast for more of the similar content. Please leave a review. That will help us get the word out there. And, please listen to one of our other episodes. Thank you very much and hope to see you on the podcast soon.

What is The Recruitment Hackers Podcast?

The Recruitment Hackers Podcast talks to leaders who have turned recruiting into a long-term competitive edge for their business. In those discussions, we explore ways to improve the candidate experience, we imagine the future of recruitment, and we discuss which digital strategies are performing well. This podcast is essential listening for talent acquisition professionals who want to win the war for talent through digitization, automation and tons of empathy for candidates.