1 00:00:42,075 --> 00:00:45,459 Wahi gudegi kakalso, wahi gudegi kifate. 2 00:00:45,459 --> 00:00:52,806 ah We're here on Warrior Saint and uh today I've got a very special guest. 3 00:00:52,806 --> 00:00:54,047 have a very... 4 00:00:54,298 --> 00:00:57,119 say an old friend of mine, but he's not actually that old. 5 00:00:57,119 --> 00:00:58,159 I'm old. 6 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,092 And you can see from my beard that I've had a tougher go of it than he has. 7 00:01:04,092 --> 00:01:08,414 You can see from his beard that he's had a pretty easy go of it. 8 00:01:08,414 --> 00:01:22,349 anyhow, the man's name is Hemmitsen Kalsa, and he's right now in, I believe in Arizona, and we're... 9 00:01:22,457 --> 00:01:27,837 As you'll pick up from today's conversation, we're really good friends. 10 00:01:27,837 --> 00:01:30,617 We've known each other a very long time. 11 00:01:30,837 --> 00:01:40,277 Our circumstances of our life has kind of put us in other directions, but we've stayed tight and he's got a great family. 12 00:01:40,528 --> 00:01:44,748 he always has very interesting ideas. 13 00:01:45,368 --> 00:01:50,408 And I don't know where we'll go with it all today, but I'm sure I... 14 00:01:50,408 --> 00:01:56,179 I hope anybody who's here listening to Warrior Saint today will stick in. 15 00:01:56,179 --> 00:02:03,395 Sometimes it's tough to stick through a whole hour conversation, but this one probably will be a doozy. 16 00:02:03,595 --> 00:02:18,363 And I'm excited because I'll be disappointed if I don't hear some very visionary things from this very unique person who I know. 17 00:02:18,739 --> 00:02:20,859 We've known each other probably, what? 18 00:02:20,879 --> 00:02:21,579 I can't believe it. 19 00:02:21,579 --> 00:02:23,599 We've probably known each other what? 20 00:02:23,779 --> 00:02:27,259 30 years, at least. 21 00:02:27,419 --> 00:02:37,299 At least, no, actually, I've been married now 26 years, but I think we met a couple years before even I got married, so I'd say it's hard to believe. 22 00:02:38,059 --> 00:02:47,826 Yeah, it blows my mind that we've known each other for 30 years and we've seen a lot in each other's lives, a lot of stuff, you know, a lot of. 23 00:02:47,826 --> 00:03:01,046 challenging stuff a lot of a lot of cool stuff and and here we are 30 years later and and he's done a lot of like really interesting things that I like to get into at some point in 24 00:03:01,046 --> 00:03:03,680 the conversation but uh 25 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,772 that, I was thinking about it. 26 00:03:05,772 --> 00:03:15,058 uh I think that you are the only friend that I've known that I stayed in contact with for that long. 27 00:03:15,519 --> 00:03:17,361 So, yeah. 28 00:03:17,361 --> 00:03:19,248 be my only friend right now. 29 00:03:21,349 --> 00:03:21,683 Yeah. 30 00:03:21,683 --> 00:03:22,466 uh 31 00:03:22,466 --> 00:03:26,598 I've worn everyone out, but you must have some kind of special stamina. 32 00:03:26,598 --> 00:03:28,299 I think I've worn everyone out. 33 00:03:28,299 --> 00:03:34,273 I'm trying to count my friends and right now I have it on one finger actually, so. 34 00:03:35,273 --> 00:03:39,401 well, I'm not going anywhere you can't you can't scare me off 35 00:03:42,428 --> 00:04:02,388 So, yeah, 30 years ago, we didn't know each other and he found himself in my place at some point and I had the opportunity to share still lot of yoga, meditation, and stuff in 36 00:04:02,388 --> 00:04:09,188 spiritual development that I had picked up when I was a little younger than he was at the time. 37 00:04:09,488 --> 00:04:10,735 And then... 38 00:04:10,735 --> 00:04:21,420 We met each other and now, know, 30 years later from what I understand, you know, he's sharing his own wisdom with people. 39 00:04:21,420 --> 00:04:34,376 uh it's very pleasing to see that, you know, it doesn't always happen, but it's really pleasing to meet somebody, you think you have some kind of positive effect on them and 40 00:04:34,376 --> 00:04:38,007 then you can really see that it's the stuff gets handed down. 41 00:04:38,853 --> 00:04:42,209 generation to generation and that's really what it's about. 42 00:04:42,209 --> 00:04:45,956 So I'm excited to have you here today. 43 00:04:45,956 --> 00:04:48,259 What do you have to say for yourself? 44 00:04:48,338 --> 00:05:05,178 Well, I'm blessed I'm honored to know you of course and honored to be Invited to your your podcast and as you said, I I hope to be able to share some inspiring Stories about my life 45 00:05:05,178 --> 00:05:15,238 as I was saying before we came on quite honestly, I'm a fairly private person and This is not something that I do regularly. 46 00:05:15,238 --> 00:05:17,038 I'm not in any way an influencer. 47 00:05:17,038 --> 00:05:18,203 I don't have a 48 00:05:18,203 --> 00:05:19,154 platform. 49 00:05:19,154 --> 00:05:21,355 I don't have an agenda in this call. 50 00:05:21,355 --> 00:05:36,244 I'm a typical householder uh with a family that works and uh does their thing to keep themselves spiritually uplifted as much as possible and try to share what I've learned as 51 00:05:36,244 --> 00:05:36,574 I go. 52 00:05:36,574 --> 00:05:41,047 yeah, uh so I'm happy to be here and happy to share. 53 00:05:41,047 --> 00:05:45,099 uh We'll take the conversation wherever you want to take it. 54 00:05:45,827 --> 00:06:01,800 You know, you mentioned interesting word because, you know, in any group there's kind of like code words, code language, you know, and people in it have heard it, you know, so a 55 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:06,935 word that both of us have heard and used a lot is a householder. 56 00:06:07,776 --> 00:06:08,156 And... 57 00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:09,137 uh 58 00:06:09,388 --> 00:06:15,948 I'm not saying it's, it's like, um, a manipulative agenda, but like, yeah, sure. 59 00:06:15,948 --> 00:06:19,908 The name of the podcast is warrior saints for a reason. 60 00:06:20,108 --> 00:06:38,004 Um, we never push in anything, but inevitably conversations kind of go in the direction of a, a certain, uh, ideal, a certain like idealized concept of what 61 00:06:38,004 --> 00:06:45,666 an ideal life is and, you know, the warrior saint thing, or some people say saint warrior, 62 00:06:46,798 --> 00:06:54,021 there's not a whole lot of knowledge about this particular way of living. 63 00:06:54,021 --> 00:07:02,245 um there's like every path, it has its own emphasis on things. 64 00:07:02,245 --> 00:07:11,412 When I was introduced to this when I was younger, like, there was this uh great emphasis placed on this word householder. 65 00:07:11,412 --> 00:07:22,742 And not only by the people who were teaching me, but then the person who had actually brought this to the West. 66 00:07:22,742 --> 00:07:25,235 And then ultimately, I was... 67 00:07:25,486 --> 00:07:36,806 kind of brought into contact with the original founders of this from three, 500 years ago, you know, and you're reading this stuff from 500 years ago and there's a lot of talk about 68 00:07:36,806 --> 00:07:39,200 this whole householder thing. 69 00:07:39,451 --> 00:07:47,551 and how it's such a central tenant of this particular path. 70 00:07:48,171 --> 00:07:59,331 when I got introduced to this, was 25, 24, 25 years old and now I'm 74, but I was, you know, I was, that was 50 years ago. 71 00:07:59,351 --> 00:08:05,451 And that didn't have much attraction to me, that tenant. 72 00:08:05,471 --> 00:08:07,579 It didn't align with the... 73 00:08:07,579 --> 00:08:12,319 any of my fantasized ideas of what it is or what it should be. 74 00:08:13,239 --> 00:08:16,079 And it seemed actually kind of boring what they were talking about. 75 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:31,039 But now, yeah, of course, 50 years later, a very different view of that I consider it to be one of the things that really kind of define this particular path is that the people 76 00:08:31,039 --> 00:08:37,028 who take it on are really urged to be ideal. 77 00:08:37,028 --> 00:08:41,591 householders, family, people contributing to the society. 78 00:08:41,894 --> 00:08:44,667 So what's your experience of that? 79 00:08:44,667 --> 00:09:00,275 Well, I was going to actually ask you uh if you felt that there was any conflict between the concept of householder and the concept of warrior-saint, like the relationship between 80 00:09:00,275 --> 00:09:01,175 those two. 81 00:09:01,427 --> 00:09:10,794 I've been, I've been involved with this for 50 years and that's the first time somebody actually asked me about that in 50 years, right now. 82 00:09:11,032 --> 00:09:19,432 How do you basically put two things together that seem to be not the same thing? 83 00:09:19,972 --> 00:09:20,592 Right? 84 00:09:23,272 --> 00:09:26,812 How do you square the two? 85 00:09:28,152 --> 00:09:32,712 And nobody's asked me, but that's like really... 86 00:09:32,712 --> 00:09:37,492 I'm going on a tour of South America in about a week and a half. 87 00:09:37,732 --> 00:09:39,147 And you could be... 88 00:09:39,147 --> 00:09:42,129 damn sure I'm gonna talk about that. 89 00:09:42,870 --> 00:09:47,592 You know, that's a really good, that's a real, you know, it's the same kind of thing. 90 00:09:47,713 --> 00:09:51,255 How do you square being a warrior with a saint? 91 00:09:51,556 --> 00:09:56,819 You know, because people just can't, I mean, they're thinking it's like this or that. 92 00:09:57,059 --> 00:10:07,366 And then if you have this concept of it being a warrior saint being something, how do you square that? 93 00:10:07,617 --> 00:10:15,072 with uh being a day-to-day householder. 94 00:10:15,493 --> 00:10:30,025 And I think it's one of the real challenges in bringing people along in this because um it's really a challenge for people to work that out, not just in their head, but in their 95 00:10:30,025 --> 00:10:30,945 day-to-day life. 96 00:10:30,945 --> 00:10:37,200 And I think that a lot of people are just either unwilling or unprepared 97 00:10:37,214 --> 00:10:45,238 to kind of understand how being a warrior and being a saintly person is all kind of melded together. 98 00:10:46,514 --> 00:10:57,484 And then you kind of have this idealized view of what kind of person that would be, which seems like uh kind of an otherworldly person. 99 00:10:57,505 --> 00:11:06,149 Like if you were living like a prototype warrior saint, you'd be living completely 100 00:11:06,173 --> 00:11:11,928 out of the paradigm of an average person living in society, right? 101 00:11:11,928 --> 00:11:23,817 So even putting the warrior and saint together, that's like, you're living at a certain standard that the average person would have no intention of living, even if they admired 102 00:11:23,817 --> 00:11:27,049 it on some philosophical point of view. 103 00:11:27,049 --> 00:11:34,885 And then you're basically asking people to practice that as like an everyday householder. 104 00:11:34,885 --> 00:11:36,176 That's like, 105 00:11:36,685 --> 00:11:41,286 People have, I think, have a very hard time squaring it. 106 00:11:41,286 --> 00:11:55,221 And if they're unable to do that in time, because everybody's got time, if they're unable to do that, if they're unable to square it, they're gonna have to walk away from it 107 00:11:55,221 --> 00:11:58,582 probably, because it's just too much. 108 00:11:58,782 --> 00:12:02,505 So let's talk about that a little bit, squaring it. 109 00:12:04,246 --> 00:12:06,808 You start talking about these words. 110 00:12:06,808 --> 00:12:10,030 We have three words here, warrior, saint, and householder. 111 00:12:10,281 --> 00:12:15,985 And so it starts, I think, with how you define those for yourself. 112 00:12:16,285 --> 00:12:17,216 What is a warrior? 113 00:12:17,216 --> 00:12:18,626 What is a saint? 114 00:12:18,787 --> 00:12:20,428 And what is a householder? 115 00:12:21,049 --> 00:12:23,279 So what is 116 00:12:23,279 --> 00:12:24,100 good. 117 00:12:24,221 --> 00:12:28,645 you know, again, I'm not like trying to evade anything, things. 118 00:12:28,645 --> 00:12:41,788 I'm just trying to give you your props, you know, because, you know, look, I talk about these things with people and, you know, thank God there's somebody like yourself who's 119 00:12:41,788 --> 00:12:47,063 basically saying, you know, you define the terms of this engagement. 120 00:12:47,835 --> 00:12:48,255 Okay. 121 00:12:48,255 --> 00:12:50,726 Because you're just not going to throw words at me. 122 00:12:50,726 --> 00:12:53,176 So like, what are we really talking about? 123 00:12:53,176 --> 00:12:55,648 And again, that really happens very rarely. 124 00:12:55,648 --> 00:12:58,189 So I really appreciate that. 125 00:12:58,189 --> 00:13:04,631 And I think, and I ask people to do it and then they get mad at me when I do it, but it's my right, right? 126 00:13:04,631 --> 00:13:11,254 So if people are given a big philosophical discourse, it's my right to actually understand the terms they're using. 127 00:13:11,274 --> 00:13:17,056 If they're going to go out there rather than just paint a pretty picture with words, you know, so 128 00:13:17,307 --> 00:13:20,659 I think I'm trying in general. 129 00:13:20,910 --> 00:13:25,433 I try to talk about the original origin of word. 130 00:13:25,684 --> 00:13:29,275 Why literally it was born to be. 131 00:13:29,767 --> 00:13:34,941 But I don't always talk about that, but that's usually part of that. 132 00:13:34,941 --> 00:13:40,535 And then the other part of it is to try to articulate. 133 00:13:41,216 --> 00:13:43,628 An understanding of it that. 134 00:13:44,386 --> 00:13:50,508 anybody would understand that we're on the same page in modern society at the how it's used. 135 00:13:50,669 --> 00:14:01,123 Not how it's ideally gonna be used, but like how it's used in the society and then how it applies to this particular situation. 136 00:14:01,123 --> 00:14:12,045 Because again, you you're using words like warrior and that as they like to use the word these days can trigger people, right? 137 00:14:12,045 --> 00:14:13,614 People like the trigger word, right? 138 00:14:13,614 --> 00:14:13,984 Right. 139 00:14:13,984 --> 00:14:14,584 So. 140 00:14:14,584 --> 00:14:17,105 at, this is a really important time in history, right? 141 00:14:17,105 --> 00:14:19,354 In the Middle East and everything that's happening. 142 00:14:19,354 --> 00:14:20,303 So the. 143 00:14:20,303 --> 00:14:37,648 and people have, and people manipulate the words for their own gain, so they can make warrior just mean somebody who's uh willing to die for what they want them to die for, you 144 00:14:37,648 --> 00:14:38,099 know. 145 00:14:38,099 --> 00:14:46,641 So they'll call them a warrior as a compliment, but then other people who look at it differently, 146 00:14:46,763 --> 00:14:50,185 a warrior to them is somebody who has license to kill. 147 00:14:50,185 --> 00:14:57,899 Okay, and in all cases, that's to them a bad thing. 148 00:14:58,260 --> 00:15:10,867 So the word starts getting loaded because people start using it and understanding it to, in my view, to basically fit their own needs. 149 00:15:10,867 --> 00:15:12,908 But I'm trying to... 150 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:23,560 I was gonna say one thing that's nice about this conversation around these three concepts is that in this case, we're not necessarily looking at them alone. 151 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:25,860 You're not just a warrior. 152 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,920 You're not just a saint and you're not just a householder. 153 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,760 It's a matter of trying to hold all three of those. 154 00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:34,460 And they relate to each other. 155 00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:38,280 There's a strong relationship between those. 156 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,825 They support each other, they relate to each other. 157 00:15:40,825 --> 00:15:48,343 So think that helps us to ground the conversation around these concepts to what I think that we believe. 158 00:15:48,757 --> 00:15:57,571 Yeah, and you I think you brought up a really good point in that, you know, when you started about what do mean by you were like challenging me what you mean by that. 159 00:15:57,571 --> 00:16:00,071 And I really haven't even gotten to the point yet. 160 00:16:00,452 --> 00:16:12,657 But I'm not trying to be evasive either, you know, but it's it's the thing is, is I actually really wanted to say how much I agree with you from my experience is that we're 161 00:16:12,657 --> 00:16:15,867 seeing how those words play off of each other. 162 00:16:15,867 --> 00:16:16,878 But 163 00:16:16,918 --> 00:16:27,598 And you see people get into these types of conversations with the assumption that they all agree what those words actually even mean within themselves. 164 00:16:27,598 --> 00:16:35,738 And now they're trying to bring them together, but wait a minute, we haven't actually agreed what they even mean within their own realm. 165 00:16:36,378 --> 00:16:42,038 then within different realms, they mean different things. 166 00:16:42,038 --> 00:16:45,824 I think for, we're buddies, we both. 167 00:16:45,824 --> 00:16:48,175 kind of chose to walk on this path. 168 00:16:48,175 --> 00:17:03,838 So we've heard it and I think it's an okay thing to do is that we're both followers of Sikh path and particularly Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa message. 169 00:17:03,938 --> 00:17:15,041 And so whether people agreed or didn't agree with the general definition of it, I think it's productive for us to say 170 00:17:15,157 --> 00:17:17,641 how it's being used in this context. 171 00:17:18,384 --> 00:17:25,257 Okay, without making anybody right or wrong about a word, without putting any value judgments on it, it's just what it is. 172 00:17:25,257 --> 00:17:27,761 I think that when we talk about... 173 00:17:28,012 --> 00:17:31,293 To me, and I'm interested in your viewpoint about this too. 174 00:17:31,293 --> 00:17:39,035 And without us getting into like word salads, know, like getting into what a word means. 175 00:17:39,035 --> 00:17:49,257 I think I'm interested in going, okay, a word represents something in my understanding that I think is of great value, okay? 176 00:17:49,257 --> 00:17:57,139 So without debating what a word means, I'm more or less using the word as a representation of an ideal. 177 00:17:57,973 --> 00:18:16,407 I think for us, a warrior is somebody who's willing to sacrifice everything if necessary for a higher ideal, which I would call the mission, whatever they think the mission is, 178 00:18:16,407 --> 00:18:16,908 okay. 179 00:18:16,908 --> 00:18:27,050 ah And the betterment of other people, for the wellbeing of other people, for the wellbeing of humanity, for... 180 00:18:27,924 --> 00:18:46,333 the objectives of what they're committing their life to, that they're willing to actually even sacrifice their own life and to do this, they are, they're aspiring to live without 181 00:18:46,333 --> 00:18:46,904 fear. 182 00:18:46,904 --> 00:18:52,106 That's what I would call a warrior in this context. 183 00:18:52,107 --> 00:18:57,981 Yeah, I was definitely thinking of this idea because it's something that I can hold on to. 184 00:18:57,981 --> 00:19:03,385 And it's also something that challenges me directly uh at times. 185 00:19:03,385 --> 00:19:05,406 But the idea of fearlessness. 186 00:19:06,047 --> 00:19:12,511 Now, ah again, you coupled it with the willing to sacrifice everything. 187 00:19:12,572 --> 00:19:16,734 And so uh it isn't just fearlessness. 188 00:19:16,734 --> 00:19:19,216 ah It is. 189 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:31,754 rounded out and supported with this idea of, okay, you can say all these things, but when you're put in that moment, are you willing to sacrifice everything? 190 00:19:31,955 --> 00:19:46,219 And this does begin to set up a conflict with the idea of householder and things like that, because are you willing to sacrifice everything, including losing your family and 191 00:19:46,219 --> 00:19:47,384 these types of things, which 192 00:19:47,384 --> 00:19:48,545 right. 193 00:19:49,866 --> 00:19:56,811 Right, and you know, I was waiting on that, because I think that's really an interesting place to take this, okay? 194 00:19:56,811 --> 00:20:13,052 But again, before going there, I'm trying to provide some clarity about what I'm talking about before I jump into the householder, because to me, this warrior saint thing is a 195 00:20:13,052 --> 00:20:14,143 package. 196 00:20:14,695 --> 00:20:16,337 You know, it's not two separate things. 197 00:20:16,337 --> 00:20:23,904 It's a merging of two ideals into one ideal. 198 00:20:24,145 --> 00:20:26,298 And you really can't separate them, so. 199 00:20:26,298 --> 00:20:35,925 So I gave what I think is a fair explanation of the warrior side of it. 200 00:20:35,925 --> 00:20:37,646 Do you think that was fair? 201 00:20:38,001 --> 00:20:39,785 I think that was fair, yeah. 202 00:20:39,848 --> 00:20:41,975 It landed well with me, anyway. 203 00:20:41,975 --> 00:20:42,384 Yeah. 204 00:20:42,384 --> 00:20:44,626 know, I've gotten to that point too. 205 00:20:44,626 --> 00:20:51,381 I'm not seeking a perfect explanation because the whole linguistics is another thing, you know? 206 00:20:51,381 --> 00:20:58,787 But I think what's most important is that there's an understanding, you know, where... 207 00:20:59,021 --> 00:21:14,251 I kind of, the way that I sort of, let's use that square this up for myself, is that I'm willing to continue to learn. 208 00:21:14,251 --> 00:21:18,954 And I do think that our context is important in where we are in our life. 209 00:21:18,954 --> 00:21:22,116 So I don't close the door on any. 210 00:21:22,367 --> 00:21:34,572 definition of a word or what I especially words that we're talking about these words are they're loaded and they're each one of them is an ideal that people spend lifetimes trying 211 00:21:34,572 --> 00:21:47,927 to fully achieve and embody so uh Yeah, I'm open to continuing to expand my view of that but I think that the way that you put it sacrifice and fearless sacrifice everything 212 00:21:47,927 --> 00:21:52,329 willing to sacrifice everything and this idea of fearlessness, know, that's 213 00:21:52,703 --> 00:21:54,704 the way I understand those, that word. 214 00:21:55,091 --> 00:22:07,133 Yeah, and it doesn't actually have to mean, as you know, because we're concerned about in this path also, you know, human rights and things like that. 215 00:22:08,486 --> 00:22:13,838 fighting for those who can't fight for themselves, but that's not just physical. 216 00:22:13,918 --> 00:22:28,693 So sometimes the warrior thing, people just think of carrying the sword, which we do, but you can live like a warrior and should be able to live like a warrior without actually 217 00:22:28,693 --> 00:22:31,283 having to pick up a weapon. 218 00:22:31,729 --> 00:22:41,927 I mean, this is one of the great elements that has been lost in some Western yoga practices. 219 00:22:41,967 --> 00:22:43,959 I think this is a real distinction. 220 00:22:43,959 --> 00:22:59,360 people don't, a lot of people who are practicing yoga, they are not connecting it with the tradition that many of the people who are practicing yoga were also warriors, not just in 221 00:22:59,661 --> 00:23:01,308 our path, but 222 00:23:01,308 --> 00:23:04,839 traditionally classical yogis were warriors. 223 00:23:04,959 --> 00:23:11,621 They fought and were prepared and they were the strongest in many cases of their tribe or whatever. 224 00:23:11,621 --> 00:23:24,205 um So yeah, there's a real connection and there's a disconnect, I think, in the modern yoga world where people have a sense of what yoga is and they've disconnected it from that 225 00:23:24,205 --> 00:23:26,456 idea of the warrior. 226 00:23:27,205 --> 00:23:29,506 Well, and I think also that. 227 00:23:30,542 --> 00:23:44,443 I think people are much more influenced than they're willing to acknowledge about how things around them in the world, the secular world ah affect them because, you know, 228 00:23:44,844 --> 00:23:58,055 people don't, I mean, when we talk about warrior, that implicates there may be situations where there's violence and killing and suffering and... 229 00:23:58,306 --> 00:24:07,671 just by the way we're raised and just how things are going on around us, that's very hard for people to square. 230 00:24:08,292 --> 00:24:17,537 How can you call yourself a spiritual or religious person, a God-oriented person, and even think about harming a fly? 231 00:24:17,857 --> 00:24:25,342 And so, but they've been conditioned to think that way without question. 232 00:24:25,576 --> 00:24:40,041 And now, like even in this conversation, like it could be an uncomfortable conversation for people is that you're questioning their fundamental belief system about things, about 233 00:24:40,142 --> 00:24:42,573 what makes a person a spiritual person even. 234 00:24:42,573 --> 00:24:53,197 So in this particular path, you talk about the warrior saint and I think actually the other word, it would seem like the other way around, but I actually think the other word, 235 00:24:53,197 --> 00:24:54,327 the saint, 236 00:24:54,855 --> 00:24:57,437 is even harder to define. 237 00:24:58,778 --> 00:25:02,020 It's much more abstract to most people. 238 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:10,786 And even if they were against it, they'd probably have an easier time trying to define warrior than they did to saint. 239 00:25:10,887 --> 00:25:15,470 And again, they're assuming everyone's on the same page, but maybe not. 240 00:25:15,650 --> 00:25:22,461 And so in this tradition, I'm not talking about other traditions. 241 00:25:22,461 --> 00:25:33,551 And I'm trying to just make it understandable is that to me, a saint, the same part of it is really the devotional. 242 00:25:34,505 --> 00:25:40,966 And so it's a person coming from a place of uh humility and devotion. 243 00:25:41,217 --> 00:25:54,022 and all the things implicated by that, the love, the kindness, those kinds of things, certain types of qualities that have to do with unconditional love and devotion, 244 00:25:54,022 --> 00:26:03,065 especially to that force that brought us here as human beings that many of us would call God. 245 00:26:03,065 --> 00:26:09,567 ah That's kind of like the person, that's kind of like the same persona. 246 00:26:11,374 --> 00:26:12,675 That's how I take it. 247 00:26:12,675 --> 00:26:23,167 In fact, as you said, you went into a yoga class and you just, know, and I've done this, you know, my style, you know, if you just like nail somebody in the middle of class and 248 00:26:23,167 --> 00:26:26,652 going, what does being a saint mean to you? 249 00:26:26,903 --> 00:26:29,244 You won't get a straight answer. 250 00:26:29,644 --> 00:26:33,326 Cause they really have in most cases, give it any thought. 251 00:26:33,811 --> 00:26:41,446 Yeah, yeah, it's a super strong word, and it has a lot of different implications. 252 00:26:41,446 --> 00:26:59,429 uh I think that there's a sense of purity that is attached to that word as well, which really makes it difficult to square, in some cases, the idea of uh the warrior and the 253 00:26:59,429 --> 00:26:59,779 saint. 254 00:26:59,779 --> 00:27:01,740 uh 255 00:27:02,110 --> 00:27:18,577 But that's what makes, I think, whole discussion as well as this whole path, the Dharma, so rich is that we should be taking these ideals that are really pretty much the, in each 256 00:27:18,577 --> 00:27:21,048 area, they're kind of like the ultimate. 257 00:27:21,168 --> 00:27:26,831 You have people who fight, you have people who are into martial arts, things like that. 258 00:27:26,831 --> 00:27:30,672 And then you have the warrior, and the warrior is the ultimate of that. 259 00:27:30,888 --> 00:27:31,719 particular path. 260 00:27:31,719 --> 00:27:38,053 Then you have people who pray, they practice religion, and then you have the saint, which is the ultimate of that. 261 00:27:38,053 --> 00:27:43,157 uh Householders, same thing, same level. 262 00:27:43,157 --> 00:27:50,541 You you have people who marry and or they participate, they have partners, they have all these different things going on in their lives. 263 00:27:50,762 --> 00:28:00,038 But I think for us, the household or someone who can balance all of that and be totally immersed in the everyday life. 264 00:28:00,307 --> 00:28:09,594 ah that would be kind of in many ways the highest ideal of living, but working, having a family and all these other things. 265 00:28:10,524 --> 00:28:21,513 Well, know, to me, you kind of answered your own question because you were asking way back when, you know, like, how do you square out, how do you integrate, you know, being a 266 00:28:21,513 --> 00:28:25,136 warrior saint, I mean, and to being a householder. 267 00:28:25,136 --> 00:28:39,597 And I think I remembered saying that, you know, first, you kind of got to square away any kind of paradox about being a warrior and being a saint at the same time. 268 00:28:40,133 --> 00:28:52,463 that implicates uh really uh dedicating your life to being a virtuous person because there's many core virtues involved that life gives you the opportunity to do it. 269 00:28:52,463 --> 00:29:05,824 So, you know, known me a long time, so in my life, you know, I just see my entire life just being uh like a battlefield or a playground or whatever you want to call it, a test 270 00:29:05,824 --> 00:29:09,877 ground to get all this stuff together here. 271 00:29:10,207 --> 00:29:24,212 And um actually this human life works very well as being the best place to actually become a warrior saint. 272 00:29:24,472 --> 00:29:27,203 Because you're being asked to do certain things. 273 00:29:27,203 --> 00:29:32,245 So to me they're actually dependent on each other. 274 00:29:32,245 --> 00:29:36,157 They're not exactly the same thing, but they're dependent on each other. 275 00:29:36,157 --> 00:29:39,628 Is that if you're dedicating your life to 276 00:29:39,628 --> 00:29:46,423 I'll call like the Kalsa prototype is to be a warrior saint. 277 00:29:46,423 --> 00:29:48,164 Okay, that's the prototype. 278 00:29:48,164 --> 00:29:57,061 uh Okay, so ideally a person is gonna use the life to better themselves. 279 00:29:57,061 --> 00:30:06,838 So they're gonna evolve into the kind of person who really is a great uh model of these qualities of being a warrior and being a saint. 280 00:30:06,838 --> 00:30:13,452 at the same time to such extent that you can't actually divide these two. 281 00:30:13,703 --> 00:30:17,079 But the thing about the householder is actually. 282 00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:32,594 Now, having done this, I think a very strong argument can be made that living the household of life is actually the best opportunity to master being a warrior saint, much 283 00:30:32,594 --> 00:30:43,613 more so than, let's say, if you just were living in a cave or something meditating, that that would help you in some ways, but actually, 284 00:30:43,613 --> 00:30:55,489 Like what you're doing, working in the world, being a father, being a husband, being a member of the community and all the pressures and, know, and, uh, hypocrisies and 285 00:30:55,489 --> 00:31:03,844 everything that you have to deal with in day-to-day life, that, um, those are the things that actually get your chops on. 286 00:31:03,844 --> 00:31:13,339 that, that, that's, that you can look at as struggles and horrible things, but you can also see it as that this is where you're really going to school. 287 00:31:14,053 --> 00:31:33,792 And so I think that the household of life is actually, and I think the guru spoke of this, is that the household of life is the best platform that one who's aspiring to be a warrior 288 00:31:33,792 --> 00:31:40,195 saint can actually get this stuff together, doing it, that they couldn't do that on their own. 289 00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:55,570 yeah, I think that there's the possibility that when somebody hears warrior saint on its own, that they may envision somebody who's out there on a horse training all the time for 290 00:31:55,570 --> 00:31:56,531 battle. 291 00:31:57,172 --> 00:32:07,978 And, you know, uh the idea that the warrior saint is somebody who is out there training all the time for battle. 292 00:32:07,978 --> 00:32:19,356 but is going home to feed their children and take care of their wife and take out the trash, whatever has to happen that day. 293 00:32:19,356 --> 00:32:29,943 uh That makes it, I think, actually way more palatable for the mainstream. 294 00:32:29,943 --> 00:32:38,078 It's a way of life that supports you with these ideals, that helps to kind of 295 00:32:38,282 --> 00:32:41,176 give you so you don't slip into complacency. 296 00:32:41,176 --> 00:32:54,182 I mean, if you disconnect the warrior saint idea from householder, it could be very, you know, uh you're doing what you need to do, but. 297 00:32:54,433 --> 00:33:00,016 The spice isn't there, the passion, the fight, really the fight. 298 00:33:00,016 --> 00:33:04,118 The fight can be lost and you see this happening with people. 299 00:33:04,298 --> 00:33:19,866 And it's actually, um I know lots of men who they get married, they get their job and um they're not out there on the hunt anymore and they get complacent. 300 00:33:19,866 --> 00:33:22,538 They're not feeling like they have full life anymore. 301 00:33:22,538 --> 00:33:23,858 They don't have that. 302 00:33:24,172 --> 00:33:40,143 um that drive, but with the understanding that, uh you know, you're stretching every day for these ideals towards the fearlessness, towards the willingness to sacrifice everything 303 00:33:40,143 --> 00:33:47,207 for your values, your virtues, then uh how could you get bored? 304 00:33:47,207 --> 00:33:48,670 How could you get complacent? 305 00:33:48,670 --> 00:33:49,901 It doesn't ever stop. 306 00:33:49,901 --> 00:33:54,625 It's constantly every day you're challenged and you're trying to meet that challenge as a saint would. 307 00:33:54,625 --> 00:34:05,214 uh Yeah, so I think it really builds in, uh you know, kind of the cherry color, the like this idea that we're always. 308 00:34:05,915 --> 00:34:11,229 Raise every morning we get up, we're raising for the challenge and we will make mistakes. 309 00:34:11,229 --> 00:34:12,381 We're not perfect. 310 00:34:12,381 --> 00:34:16,914 The idea of Saint, you know, it kind of has these connotations around. 311 00:34:17,471 --> 00:34:21,454 perfection and all of this. 312 00:34:21,454 --> 00:34:30,110 But uh I think most uh CALSA would admit to making a mistake here and there. 313 00:34:30,110 --> 00:34:32,082 These are things that we stretch for every day. 314 00:34:32,082 --> 00:34:38,366 And we move in those directions uh and try to continually be improving. 315 00:34:38,366 --> 00:34:43,670 uh yeah, it's nice to I haven't really thought about these things. 316 00:34:44,434 --> 00:34:46,067 And we keep using this word square. 317 00:34:46,067 --> 00:34:48,481 I was thinking, we're really more talking about a triangle. 318 00:34:48,481 --> 00:34:51,045 Being an architect, I'm really into geometry. 319 00:34:51,045 --> 00:34:52,298 And so right now with this. 320 00:34:52,298 --> 00:34:52,588 that. 321 00:34:52,588 --> 00:34:54,270 definitely want to get into it. 322 00:34:54,270 --> 00:35:05,862 I hope if not this conversation, another one, because I really want to get into that kind of thing because I think that's really where you'll be blowing a lot of people's minds, 323 00:35:05,862 --> 00:35:06,846 including mine. 324 00:35:06,846 --> 00:35:09,767 think this is much more interesting. 325 00:35:09,767 --> 00:35:14,029 ah And I think it's more appropriate for your podcast. 326 00:35:14,029 --> 00:35:18,150 Because it's funny, uh we didn't prep for this at all. 327 00:35:18,730 --> 00:35:22,548 And uh as an architect, I'm a planner. 328 00:35:22,548 --> 00:35:28,073 I'm always, whatever it is I'm going to do, there's going to be a plan behind it. 329 00:35:28,233 --> 00:35:30,193 It's just kind of in my DNA. 330 00:35:30,314 --> 00:35:31,944 And so I had reached, I had. 331 00:35:31,944 --> 00:35:38,218 when we originally spoke about the idea of doing this, I said, maybe I'll send you five or so topics we could talk about. 332 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:47,405 And you were like, no, no, we'll just let it uh kind of manifest as it does. 333 00:35:47,405 --> 00:35:56,732 And uh this has actually become, in my mind, a really interesting concept that I want to think about, reflect on, write on, and consider. 334 00:35:56,732 --> 00:35:59,554 uh 335 00:36:00,383 --> 00:36:01,145 more in the future. 336 00:36:01,145 --> 00:36:06,704 This has really become actually a really, I couldn't have planned this is what I'm saying. 337 00:36:07,282 --> 00:36:17,793 Well, you know, and it's good because, you know, I think I was saying I'm going to be going on a South American tour talking about these kind of things. 338 00:36:18,193 --> 00:36:27,293 And you're bringing up some stuff that I I'm really going to have to remind myself to talk about. 339 00:36:28,033 --> 00:36:32,473 And and this thing because, know, it's really interesting. 340 00:36:32,473 --> 00:36:36,173 I I do talk and have talked 341 00:36:36,282 --> 00:36:44,298 a lot about this relationship between being a warrior and being a saint at the same time, obviously. 342 00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:48,181 But as I said, this other one's kind of interesting. 343 00:36:49,203 --> 00:37:06,016 I haven't given it as much thought and I haven't talked about it publicly as much as like the relationship between the prototype of a warrior saint and then the centrality of the 344 00:37:06,267 --> 00:37:11,420 of the tenant of aspiring to be a householder, know, how do those interact? 345 00:37:11,420 --> 00:37:21,125 I think that's actually where like the rubber hits the, know, the tire hits the road as they say, you know. 346 00:37:21,245 --> 00:37:35,823 And we talked about one side of it, which is, and I think it's a side of it that people would talk about naturally is like that, okay, if you're aspiring to, 347 00:37:36,379 --> 00:37:53,811 to have the virtue to live like a warrior and a saint as one integrated being that the actual household life is a very uh really helpful and maybe perfect platform to perfect 348 00:37:53,811 --> 00:37:54,611 that. 349 00:37:54,992 --> 00:38:04,098 But then I think there's this other side to it that I was thinking about by something you said, I forgot what it is you said, it made me think about because kind of in the other 350 00:38:04,098 --> 00:38:05,228 direction. 351 00:38:05,942 --> 00:38:15,748 It's that, okay, let's say that you're fairly evolved in what you're aspiring to be as a warrior saint. 352 00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:20,412 And as per your faith, you're living it as a householder. 353 00:38:21,113 --> 00:38:35,018 You know, we all remember that the teacher, know, Yogi Bhajan, who was prominent in our direction training within all of this, he was always saying, 354 00:38:35,018 --> 00:38:39,560 I came to the West to create uh teachers, not students. 355 00:38:40,523 --> 00:38:49,220 And for me, I always gave it a lot of thought, what does actually he mean by that? 356 00:38:49,621 --> 00:39:00,209 And most of the people around me, from what I could see and what it meant to them, was getting on a platform and formally teaching classes. 357 00:39:00,810 --> 00:39:03,046 And I'm not denying that's not 358 00:39:03,046 --> 00:39:05,297 a very honorable way to teach. 359 00:39:05,297 --> 00:39:08,898 But to me, that never seemed like the whole enchilada. 360 00:39:08,898 --> 00:39:23,564 To me, teaching people is a multi-level thing, mostly modeling a certain type of life and inspiring people by who you are, but not just by what you say, but what you do. 361 00:39:24,505 --> 00:39:31,628 And to me, um somebody could, I can imagine people I know saying to you, 362 00:39:31,879 --> 00:39:33,919 when you're gonna start teaching. 363 00:39:34,879 --> 00:39:44,399 And then me standing in a conversation and breaking out laughing, saying to them, someday you'll teach like he teaches. 364 00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:46,059 You know? 365 00:39:46,059 --> 00:39:58,220 Because they don't understand is that you're teaching every single second of every single day by choosing to actually integrate your warrior saint aspirations. 366 00:39:58,220 --> 00:40:10,055 into daily life where you're having a tremendous effect on your family, your friends, your community, your profession, you know, and the people to me have this very narrow view of 367 00:40:10,055 --> 00:40:15,917 what it means to teach, but actually I think me and you don't see it that way. 368 00:40:15,917 --> 00:40:19,008 We see it as actually being a household. 369 00:40:19,592 --> 00:40:27,595 Right, as well as I'd say probably 80 % of the time uh that I'm working, I'm teaching. 370 00:40:27,595 --> 00:40:34,588 mean, 100 % of the time, like I do, one of my profession, one of my professions is that I do teach. 371 00:40:34,588 --> 00:40:41,331 I teach yoga as well as I teach uh at a local community college in design and building construction technology. 372 00:40:41,331 --> 00:40:44,902 uh we satisfy it on both fronts. 373 00:40:44,902 --> 00:40:46,773 And I was thinking to bring the element of a teacher. 374 00:40:46,773 --> 00:40:49,654 Now we do have a square, but uh 375 00:40:49,660 --> 00:41:07,140 Yeah, the teacher aspect of this, it's interesting because there's a lot of people that I know that practice yoga and meditation and they're forever practitioners, which I don't 376 00:41:07,140 --> 00:41:09,340 have anything against. 377 00:41:09,740 --> 00:41:13,971 again, it was a kind of... 378 00:41:14,222 --> 00:41:20,504 teaching of this Kundalini yoga or the Kundalini yoga path. 379 00:41:20,504 --> 00:41:22,684 This is, how it relates to the voyeur Saint. 380 00:41:22,684 --> 00:41:40,469 um These are obviously very related, but that uh that exact what you said that, you know, you once you put yourself in the place of a teacher, now you have certain responsibilities 381 00:41:40,649 --> 00:41:43,492 and it's just kind of like again, it's that 382 00:41:43,492 --> 00:41:47,288 if you're, it's the highest ideal of that. 383 00:41:47,539 --> 00:41:58,152 what you know and in your life, you gather information, you're a learner, and you're still learning as a teacher, but at some point you elevate yourself to that ideal of a teacher 384 00:41:58,152 --> 00:42:02,473 where now you're in the spotlight and people are gonna test you. 385 00:42:03,654 --> 00:42:16,097 If you're a teacher, they're constantly watching you, they're gonna test you because if they wanna be able to trust you and they're probably insecure in some ways, 386 00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:22,223 And so you know that, everyone knows that because we've all probably tested our own teachers. 387 00:42:22,624 --> 00:42:34,029 So when you make that decision, okay, I'm gonna go from student to teacher, consciously, you've leveled up. 388 00:42:34,730 --> 00:42:37,091 You know you've taken on more responsibility. 389 00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:43,684 Well, you you're bringing up to me how this works in two directions. 390 00:42:43,684 --> 00:42:47,506 You know, like, who's getting what out of whom, you know? 391 00:42:47,506 --> 00:43:03,407 So to me, you mentioned what I personally gained the most out of being in a position where I'm viewed as a teacher and there are people who see themselves as being students. 392 00:43:03,407 --> 00:43:07,469 don't naturally, it's not really my way to... 393 00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:10,208 kind of really nurture that. 394 00:43:10,459 --> 00:43:12,776 kind of point of view relationship because... 395 00:43:12,776 --> 00:43:13,619 uh 396 00:43:13,870 --> 00:43:19,785 Basically, um I've never thought I actually had one student. 397 00:43:19,785 --> 00:43:21,145 I'm just me. 398 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,268 I'm just doing my thing. 399 00:43:23,268 --> 00:43:30,494 And if people want to look at me a certain way, it's not me demanding it or me telling them they can't or shouldn't. 400 00:43:30,494 --> 00:43:32,936 It's really, none of it's any of my business. 401 00:43:32,936 --> 00:43:35,438 My business is to run my own life, okay? 402 00:43:35,438 --> 00:43:40,522 And I have to find myself on a stage sometime, but I'm always myself. 403 00:43:40,522 --> 00:43:43,734 uh what I mostly get 404 00:43:43,776 --> 00:43:49,879 Out of that, as you said, being in that role is uh I like being on the spot. 405 00:43:49,879 --> 00:43:51,599 I like being pressured. 406 00:43:52,420 --> 00:44:00,373 And uh because that's helping me develop as a person, that's my personal selfish view out of it. 407 00:44:00,373 --> 00:44:02,915 I know a lot of people like the adulation. 408 00:44:02,915 --> 00:44:10,748 And you know, actually I do, I kind of, I enjoy it because everybody's telling you. 409 00:44:11,073 --> 00:44:17,448 they, how great you are and they love you, you'd be a liar to say you don't feel anything about it. 410 00:44:17,448 --> 00:44:18,979 I don't think that's even honest. 411 00:44:18,979 --> 00:44:31,318 But I think more importantly is you can't like it too much and you can't be dependent on it for your own happiness. 412 00:44:31,318 --> 00:44:35,801 You can't really give it any serious value other than. 413 00:44:35,801 --> 00:44:37,242 uh 414 00:44:37,768 --> 00:44:41,680 It's just entertainment and enjoyment and that's all it is. 415 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,521 And it doesn't actually help you become a better person. 416 00:44:46,182 --> 00:44:52,374 what helps you become a better person is people challenging you and you come through gracefully. 417 00:44:52,374 --> 00:44:55,935 That keeps making you a better person. 418 00:44:55,935 --> 00:45:03,648 And then it gets back to like what's really my role if viewed as a teacher. 419 00:45:03,729 --> 00:45:07,350 And that is that they're helping me. 420 00:45:07,906 --> 00:45:14,766 But it gets back to what we've been talking about most of this hour, and that it still gets back to what you brought up. 421 00:45:14,766 --> 00:45:16,466 I didn't bring it up, you brought it up. 422 00:45:16,466 --> 00:45:21,966 How to do with this relationship between a warrior saint and a householder. 423 00:45:21,966 --> 00:45:36,282 Because to me, I know that rightly or wrongly, and it's stupid to even get involved, if it's true, it's not true, just rightly or wrongly, there are many people. 424 00:45:36,282 --> 00:45:41,005 feel that I am a very good example of a warrior saint. 425 00:45:41,125 --> 00:45:42,046 Okay? 426 00:45:42,046 --> 00:45:45,295 And um I'm not into any debate whether it's right or wrong with people. 427 00:45:45,295 --> 00:45:46,279 It's just, that's true. 428 00:45:46,279 --> 00:45:47,490 Okay? 429 00:45:47,490 --> 00:45:56,866 And so to many of these people, they'll like, they'll kind of acknowledge that I'm in a place that they'd like to be. 430 00:45:57,067 --> 00:46:03,632 Because they see me as being a warrior and a saint, and they'd really like to do that themselves. 431 00:46:03,632 --> 00:46:04,532 But they 432 00:46:04,532 --> 00:46:06,743 feel it's out of reach to them. 433 00:46:07,264 --> 00:46:18,510 So to me, the best way for me to teach them that it's accessible to them is to show them that I'm a householder just like they are. 434 00:46:19,291 --> 00:46:23,513 So in other words, I'm not living in another world than they are. 435 00:46:23,513 --> 00:46:25,435 I'm living in the same world as they are. 436 00:46:25,435 --> 00:46:28,242 And they could see that I'm even having a good time doing it. 437 00:46:28,242 --> 00:46:31,410 I'm going to the beach, I'm going to a ball game, I'm going to a jazz club. 438 00:46:31,410 --> 00:46:33,731 You know, I'm going to Italian restaurant. 439 00:46:33,731 --> 00:46:36,982 you know, I, I, I'm following the news like everybody else. 440 00:46:36,982 --> 00:46:38,510 I'm just a regular guy. 441 00:46:38,510 --> 00:46:50,135 And so they're not understanding how can just a regular guy who's living like I am, is married, he's got a job, he's a lawyer in my case, he's doing this and this. 442 00:46:50,415 --> 00:47:01,256 How did he figure out a way to kind of live at that level of like spiritual immersion and 443 00:47:01,256 --> 00:47:05,558 spiritual development and be living the same way I am. 444 00:47:05,558 --> 00:47:17,756 So I think that's an invaluable lesson is that if I'm willing, to integrate my aspiration to be a warrior saint into being a householder, just like everyone else around me and not 445 00:47:17,756 --> 00:47:21,408 acting better or different, I'm just in there with everybody else. 446 00:47:21,408 --> 00:47:26,365 It actually is probably the most inspiring thing to people because 447 00:47:26,365 --> 00:47:29,523 it gives them the idea like, sure, I can do that. 448 00:47:30,715 --> 00:47:33,445 And I think it's very valuable. 449 00:47:33,749 --> 00:47:34,969 I totally agree with that. 450 00:47:34,969 --> 00:47:51,344 And I think that it's always, we tend to do this as humans for whatever reason, is that we see somebody who's living a life, living a life uh that we aspire to, but we idolize that. 451 00:47:51,344 --> 00:47:58,476 We think, oh, well, he represents himself this way, but you know, 452 00:47:58,540 --> 00:48:01,800 That can't be me because I've got this, this, and this. 453 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,760 And I would have to disconnect from that in order to fully dedicate myself to that. 454 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,220 And it's like, you can do that. 455 00:48:09,220 --> 00:48:14,760 And it will actually help you to be happier in trying to do all the rest of the stuff. 456 00:48:15,011 --> 00:48:16,707 They support each other. 457 00:48:16,707 --> 00:48:17,847 permission. 458 00:48:18,107 --> 00:48:32,707 If you're, basically you're doing it and you are brave enough to kind of be a trailblazer in this, but you've never separated yourself from the same daily life challenges that 459 00:48:32,707 --> 00:48:36,007 everyone around you is going through. 460 00:48:36,258 --> 00:48:39,198 That's like a really gift you're giving to people. 461 00:48:39,598 --> 00:48:42,138 It's not philosophy, it's not like an idea. 462 00:48:42,138 --> 00:48:43,458 They can see. 463 00:48:43,568 --> 00:48:50,340 They can see you're doing it so they know they can do it if they really want to. 464 00:48:50,340 --> 00:48:53,341 They can't deny that it can be done. 465 00:48:53,341 --> 00:48:55,091 It's not like a philosophical idea. 466 00:48:55,091 --> 00:48:57,062 People are actually doing this. 467 00:48:57,062 --> 00:49:10,685 And so I've really come, you know me, I've really kind of come to fall in completely in love with this entire way of going about doing this, uh this life of aspiring towards 468 00:49:10,685 --> 00:49:13,186 liberation in this lifetime and doing it. 469 00:49:13,263 --> 00:49:19,817 This way, you know, when we met, was still practicing law in Oregon, you know? 470 00:49:20,338 --> 00:49:27,962 And I was doing criminal appeals, which is uh really kind of a, it could be a dark place to go, as you can imagine. 471 00:49:27,962 --> 00:49:43,102 uh But without getting into the details, uh I landed up, uh you know, in the elevator one day with one of the uh Supreme Court justices for Oregon, you know? 472 00:49:43,748 --> 00:49:47,190 very well-known, highly respected person. 473 00:49:48,052 --> 00:49:54,617 And uh we were just in the elevator and he said something like to me, hi, Harinam. 474 00:49:54,617 --> 00:49:56,869 And my first thing, wow, he even knows my name. 475 00:49:56,869 --> 00:49:58,201 You that's kind of cool. 476 00:49:58,201 --> 00:50:02,675 I said, I haven't been in your court to argue a case in a couple of years. 477 00:50:02,675 --> 00:50:04,867 I'm glad that you remember me. 478 00:50:04,867 --> 00:50:07,709 And he says, remember you, everybody knows you. 479 00:50:08,439 --> 00:50:11,162 You know, and I said, why is that? 480 00:50:11,162 --> 00:50:12,733 I'm not the best lawyer in the world. 481 00:50:12,733 --> 00:50:17,718 goes, everybody, says, he said to me something I'll never forget. 482 00:50:17,718 --> 00:50:20,430 He says, everybody loves you. 483 00:50:20,430 --> 00:50:21,932 Everybody respects you. 484 00:50:21,932 --> 00:50:29,818 Even the people who don't, even he said, even your enemies, even the people who hate you, they all respect you and love you. 485 00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:31,991 And that blew me away. 486 00:50:31,991 --> 00:50:34,703 And that was actually by a Supreme Court judge. 487 00:50:35,334 --> 00:50:42,296 And I think the last thing he said to me was, ah he said, I really admire you, but I know what he admires. 488 00:50:42,577 --> 00:50:53,861 He admires that I am actually being a lawyer like every single other person in his court, but I'm not afraid to be who I choose to be. 489 00:50:54,982 --> 00:50:57,032 And everybody, he knows the difference. 490 00:50:57,032 --> 00:51:04,245 He's sitting on the bench and he's seeing how people are pretending to be what they. 491 00:51:04,609 --> 00:51:08,989 want other people to think they are or what they should be. 492 00:51:09,189 --> 00:51:14,129 And I'm just who I am and everybody can see and I've heard this from other lawyers too. 493 00:51:14,129 --> 00:51:22,829 I've had lawyers come up, lawyers I've never met in my life come up to me and say, I can't tell you how jealous I am you. 494 00:51:22,849 --> 00:51:26,589 So one really famous lawyer came up to me, says, I'm so jealous of you. 495 00:51:26,589 --> 00:51:28,149 And he was serious. 496 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,180 And yeah, I said, why is that? 497 00:51:30,180 --> 00:51:33,474 But I kind of already know, I wanna hear it out. 498 00:51:33,474 --> 00:51:39,272 his mouth, he says, you're the only person I've ever met who does exactly what you want to do. 499 00:51:39,939 --> 00:51:42,721 Yeah, no, I'm so thankful for that. 500 00:51:42,721 --> 00:51:43,891 I'm so thankful for that. 501 00:51:43,891 --> 00:51:56,678 mean, the thing is, that uh unfortunately, a lot of people will not have that experience, will not feel exactly like you feel right now based on, and you feel the way that you feel 502 00:51:56,678 --> 00:52:02,692 because you've been willing to take those steps towards your own destiny. 503 00:52:02,712 --> 00:52:03,893 And it's hard. 504 00:52:03,893 --> 00:52:07,014 You've been challenged and it's not easy. 505 00:52:07,014 --> 00:52:08,695 It's not an easy life. 506 00:52:08,846 --> 00:52:11,128 It's challenging on all kinds of fronts. 507 00:52:11,128 --> 00:52:21,194 And like I say, we make mistakes along the path, but there's nothing that will ever take this away from you because you've had the feeling. 508 00:52:21,194 --> 00:52:27,158 You know what it feels like to do that over the 70 some odd years. 509 00:52:27,158 --> 00:52:29,640 It's a development and it continues to grow. 510 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:37,905 like the thing about the feeling is that uh your appreciation for it, your gratitude for it. 511 00:52:37,981 --> 00:52:43,865 is this is something that gets stronger as you go, as you get tested and you you 512 00:52:43,865 --> 00:52:44,385 does. 513 00:52:44,385 --> 00:52:47,546 And the tests get, really, they still are there. 514 00:52:47,546 --> 00:52:57,818 we know people who've made the same choices that we have about where they chose the trajectory of their life would be. 515 00:52:58,620 --> 00:53:01,972 And some of those people are still around. 516 00:53:02,372 --> 00:53:09,376 And on the outside, it would look that they're largely keeping to that. 517 00:53:09,736 --> 00:53:17,240 But if you kind of dig a little deeper, you could see that people find a place where they're comfortable. 518 00:53:18,541 --> 00:53:25,135 And it's okay because they're at peace with themselves and they're comfortable. 519 00:53:25,156 --> 00:53:25,786 But. 520 00:53:25,786 --> 00:53:29,819 you find that they're lacking this passion you're talking about. 521 00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:41,888 And that is, so basically to me, and you've said it in different ways, is like, the reason that to me, they've lost their passion is they've lost their appetite for fighting. 522 00:53:42,139 --> 00:53:44,514 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 523 00:53:44,634 --> 00:53:53,263 they're basically got to the point that they just want to relax, but they didn't actually make it to their destination yet. 524 00:53:53,844 --> 00:53:58,208 And so deep down, if you talk to them, there's uh dissatisfaction. 525 00:53:58,694 --> 00:54:08,579 I mean, I don't know about, well, I know you, but you do not want to lose your fight for your last breath. 526 00:54:08,919 --> 00:54:12,261 Your last breath, you want to have that sense of fight. 527 00:54:12,261 --> 00:54:14,202 That's my belief. 528 00:54:14,202 --> 00:54:17,604 And I think everything else is just preparing me for that last breath. 529 00:54:17,604 --> 00:54:22,136 But that transition, you want to have the fight in you. 530 00:54:22,387 --> 00:54:34,205 Yeah, and the only way you do that is if you start to develop an attitude that every day you're living is really is could be your last day and be in reality about it. 531 00:54:34,205 --> 00:54:40,709 So give every day everything you have because you may not have tomorrow. 532 00:54:41,110 --> 00:54:43,201 And so it's a different way of living. 533 00:54:43,201 --> 00:54:47,154 And I think you're well on your way here. 534 00:54:47,154 --> 00:54:51,677 I mean, I've just seen a lot of 535 00:54:51,923 --> 00:54:57,577 people around me kind of lose the dog in their fight, so to speak. 536 00:54:58,178 --> 00:55:02,922 And if need be, you gotta do it yourself. 537 00:55:02,922 --> 00:55:05,724 can't depend on other people. 538 00:55:06,005 --> 00:55:13,810 I tell you, this has been, I'm just so happy that we, I don't get to talk with somebody every day like this. 539 00:55:14,592 --> 00:55:21,617 And I'm really wanting for us to talk more about 540 00:55:21,819 --> 00:55:29,339 what you're doing in your day-to-day household life, especially your professional life. 541 00:55:29,339 --> 00:55:41,006 I really want to hear what you have to say about your adventures in serving humanity through designing spaces to work and live. 542 00:55:41,407 --> 00:55:47,509 And I've had some of the most interesting conversations in my life with architects. 543 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:48,980 Yeah, and... 544 00:55:49,658 --> 00:55:55,431 And a lot of them hadn't talked about it before, but they were all like gems if you really kind of open up that oyster, you know? 545 00:55:56,351 --> 00:55:58,352 There's pearls in there, right? 546 00:55:58,773 --> 00:56:08,777 And uh once they start opening up, you realize, my God, there's like, uh there's a treasure trove of visionary wisdom there. 547 00:56:08,818 --> 00:56:10,578 Almost every architect. 548 00:56:10,839 --> 00:56:14,380 And the people who don't have that eventually leave the profession. 549 00:56:14,631 --> 00:56:16,483 That was my experience. 550 00:56:17,066 --> 00:56:24,097 Because they, like a lot of people, were hoping it would make them happy, but they're not happy because they never really embraced it. 551 00:56:24,609 --> 00:56:27,776 oh Yeah, I mean in the end. 552 00:56:28,027 --> 00:56:32,715 ah The outward manifestation of it is the building. 553 00:56:32,715 --> 00:56:35,539 um 554 00:56:35,790 --> 00:56:43,236 The depth of it comes from the space inside that and the process of getting there. 555 00:56:43,236 --> 00:56:48,139 ah I think those are the things that are really interesting. 556 00:56:48,961 --> 00:56:52,954 My own practice, we'll get into, yeah. 557 00:56:52,954 --> 00:56:56,266 All right. 558 00:56:56,356 --> 00:56:58,418 common human expression. 559 00:56:58,418 --> 00:57:12,306 And you got to put up one thing and two and you go hold that thought, hold that thought because that's going to be like an entire episode is just you, you know, taking us on a 560 00:57:12,306 --> 00:57:16,158 tour of the geography inside your own head. 561 00:57:16,616 --> 00:57:21,139 about uh what we're talking about now, because that's really something I'm excited about. 562 00:57:21,139 --> 00:57:28,324 But landed up, we talked about our lives as householders. 563 00:57:29,245 --> 00:57:37,170 I really am thrilled to death just having more than anything, know, just having an hour to talk to a kindred spirit. 564 00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:46,166 Sometimes it's a little lonely slog out there and it's so uh reaffirming to me to 565 00:57:46,166 --> 00:57:50,272 talk to somebody who can really understand it from their own experience. 566 00:57:50,272 --> 00:57:52,880 So I really thank you for that. 567 00:57:53,572 --> 00:57:54,892 Well, thank you. 568 00:57:55,713 --> 00:57:57,114 I respect you. 569 00:57:57,274 --> 00:57:58,975 I'm like those other people. 570 00:57:59,555 --> 00:58:00,676 I respect you a lot. 571 00:58:00,676 --> 00:58:06,039 ah were the minister at my, you introduced me to my wife, I should say. 572 00:58:06,039 --> 00:58:07,980 You were the minister at our wedding. 573 00:58:07,980 --> 00:58:10,301 You're the godfather of our children. 574 00:58:10,642 --> 00:58:12,643 You're my spiritual teacher. 575 00:58:12,643 --> 00:58:17,585 And I am so thankful for the life that you've lived. 576 00:58:17,826 --> 00:58:19,626 It's been a great example. 577 00:58:19,687 --> 00:58:22,414 And it makes it real, all of this that we're 578 00:58:22,414 --> 00:58:23,427 we're aspiring to be. 579 00:58:23,427 --> 00:58:25,342 So thank you for having me. 580 00:58:25,342 --> 00:58:27,204 Can I can I put that on my tombstone? 581 00:58:27,204 --> 00:58:29,796 That's that's uh 582 00:58:30,781 --> 00:58:32,468 I give you permission for that. 583 00:58:32,556 --> 00:58:32,676 it. 584 00:58:32,676 --> 00:58:33,568 Thank you very much. 585 00:58:33,568 --> 00:58:37,261 I'm gonna say goodbye. 586 00:58:37,261 --> 00:58:44,887 But basically, all you've done today is ensure that you're gonna be invited multiple times as we go forward. 587 00:58:44,887 --> 00:58:48,409 So you just earned yourself a right to do that. 588 00:58:48,486 --> 00:58:51,043 That's really good because you're paying me a lot to do this. 589 00:58:51,789 --> 00:58:52,490 You're right. 590 00:58:52,490 --> 00:58:54,951 That's why I'm making the big bucks with this podcast. 591 00:58:54,951 --> 00:58:56,462 All right. 592 00:58:56,462 --> 00:59:00,855 Well, listen, God bless you and give my love to your family and everybody else. 593 00:59:00,855 --> 00:59:02,746 And we'll be doing this again. 594 00:59:02,746 --> 00:59:07,739 It's, uh you know, as always, uh the talking to you time just flies. 595 00:59:07,739 --> 00:59:09,120 Oh, as always. 596 00:59:10,409 --> 00:59:10,621 All right. 597 00:59:10,621 --> 00:59:11,661 Well, God, all right. 598 00:59:11,661 --> 00:59:12,779 God bless you. 599 00:59:12,779 --> 00:59:13,800 bless you.