{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "3.36", "endTime": "14.639999", "body": "I wouldn't be correcting a kid because they got the year of something wrong or they got some reference wrong or they got some detail wrong. I'll say, we can deal with that later. Let's work now on how you make connections, relationships between ideas." }, { "speaker": "Narrator", "startTime": "15.455", "endTime": "26.015", "body": "This is the Transform Your Teaching podcast. The Transform Your Teaching podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "27.199999", "endTime": "44.675", "body": "Welcome back to the Transformer Teaching Podcast. My name is Jared Piles, and you're hearing me instead of Brian because I was unfortunately sick for this episode. I was super bummed about not being here to talk with John Hattie." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "44.835", "endTime": "74.895004", "body": "John Hattie is an education researcher best known for his work on evidence based teaching and student achievement. He is professor emeritus at University of Melbourne and previously served as director of Melbourne Education Research Institute. He frequently consults with schools and governments worldwide on translating research into classroom practice, and I am really bummed that I was sick and could not join Rob for this interview, but he took care of it himself. So without further ado, Doctor. John Hattie." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "74.975", "endTime": "82.335", "body": "Well, I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you for getting up. Hopefully it's not, so terribly early there" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "82.335", "endTime": "83.375", "body": "for It's 07:00." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "83.375", "endTime": "84.015", "body": "07:00." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "84.015", "endTime": "84.735", "body": "It's quite reasonable." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "85.03001", "endTime": "102.55499", "body": "Okay. Alright. And, unfortunately, doctor Piles is not with us today. He ended up being ill and couldn't join us. He was really looking forward to having a conversation with you, but I'm gonna try to pull this off by myself and, have a good conversation with you." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "102.55499", "endTime": "109.755", "body": "I hope you're looking forward to it. I know I am. And I wanna say thank you. Thank you for taking the time." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "110.075", "endTime": "111.755", "body": "Pleasure. I love talking about this stuff." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "112.11", "endTime": "129.005", "body": "Yeah. Good. So we've been doing a series on motivation. And one of the things that tipped us off to you was some research that we did, specifically, one" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "129.005", "endTime": "129.16501", "body": "of" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "129.16501", "endTime": "150.55", "body": "the things that you said, that really got our attention was feedback is one of the most powerful influences on learning and achievement. I know that's a really basic quote, maybe to you, but we've been talking about motivation. Jared and I both teach. I teach business ethics. He teaches literature." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "151.575", "endTime": "193.525", "body": "And we consistently have this conversation about what kind of feedback we give on papers. One of the things that has really driven us nuts is when we give feedback, especially to structured writing where they're gonna need to build on that again. And you get to the next version of the document that they are preparing, and it's, like, painfully obvious that they didn't read your feedback. And then the other the other is when you gave them feedback and then they come to you after class and say, hey, what about this, this, and this? And and I have to say, did you actually read my feedback I gave to you?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "194.11", "endTime": "215.67502", "body": "So from our perspective, when we saw that we're like, okay, we need we must be doing something wrong. We want to understand this in a deeper way. How can we help motivate students? Right? So that feed one, they use the feedback, and it does move them towards achievement and motivation." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "216.475", "endTime": "217.27501", "body": "So help me." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "218.65001", "endTime": "264.745", "body": "Look, I stand by the statement about feedback being among the most powerful influences. But as the best study ever done on this in 1996, Kovir and Denisi, a third of feedback has a zero to negative effect and the biggest issue with feedback besides its power is its variability and you've just picked up the big one. What we've been doing for many many years and I'm a culprit in this was really talking about how teachers give students feedback and how to do it better. But we miss the obvious and that is how do individuals, students, receive feedback. Like when you go into a classroom it's dominated by an incredible amount of feedback." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "265.94498", "endTime": "297.85498", "body": "I know in my early days I used to think that if only I could increase the amount of feedback I could solve the problem. Then I went into classrooms and realised hey that's not the problem at all, but students in a regular classroom receive between about ten and thirty seconds a day. Now here's the problem, feedback costs. The story I often use here is I've been married for forty one years and the secret of that is selective listening. I know that when she gives me feedback I've got it wrong." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "298.36", "endTime": "315.13498", "body": "I have to do it again and I don't want to see that. It's much easier not to hear it. And most kids have heard so much feedback, they realize that in most cases there's not an opportunity to use it anyway. So why even bother listening to it? But here's the one that really matters." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "316.09497", "endTime": "364.98", "body": "If you look at the nature of the feedback that we give, as teachers we are dominated by feedback about the content, about the facts, about the knowledge. There's nothing wrong with that but students have a considerably different notion of what feedback is. They want a feedback that helps them improve and if they don't think it's going to help them improve and there's not an opportunity to improve, they don't see it, don't hear it. And more often they want feedback not only about the content and the facts but also about the connections and the problem based understanding and the learning and they don't hardly ever get that. So one of my claims that I'd love you to do is that when you spend all your Sunday writing all that incredibly wonderful feedback, I want you to do two things." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "364.98", "endTime": "401.67502", "body": "Firstly I want you to go back over what you've written and put the students comments in two piles one whether you gave them improvement feedback and one where you didn't. And we've done this as studies and we've given kids we wrote two pages of feedback on every kid's response half had proven information, half did not. I remember this 40 year old kid, he waved his two pages at me and said Sir, I got no feedback. What he meant is I got nothing that helped me improve. The second thing I want you to do is after you give them feedback, give them all those lovely comments, wait a day so it's not just short term memory, then ask them." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "402.555", "endTime": "420.49", "body": "Put down the notes bullet points. What was the feedback you got the other day? It's stunning how little they remember. They just don't read it because of an improvement focus. And the argument that I put to you is that students are incredibly, incredible improvement engines." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "420.72998", "endTime": "432.295", "body": "They want to improve. If they don't think they're going to improve, they don't listen. They don't even bother reading your feedback. They don't internalize up. And so we've come up with this concept of what is effective feedback, and this will hit you right in the nose." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "432.77502", "endTime": "436.39", "body": "It's that which is heard, understood and actionable." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "437.19", "endTime": "449.725", "body": "Kinda goes back to the the three questions that you you have in terms of your framing of feedback where we read, you know, where am I going, how am I going, And, where to next?" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "449.88498", "endTime": "458.925", "body": "And students are obsessed about where to next. The other two is the validity for the where to next. There's no wrong with them, but they want they wanna know how to improve." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "460.4", "endTime": "475.835", "body": "So what would you say to faculty or teachers who, you know, they're halfway through the semester by now? Students have probably already made some, you know, selections in terms of whether they think it's worth their time." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "476.395", "endTime": "477.115", "body": "Correct." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "477.275", "endTime": "483.675", "body": "How, how does a faculty member or teacher, how do they get themselves out of that hole? How do they get themselves out of that rut?" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "483.91498", "endTime": "526.34", "body": "Well, I think that second exercise I mentioned about asking the students a day or so later to note the feedback will tell you that sometimes we spend far too much time giving feedback when if we did less and had it more focused on improvement everyone would be better off. Think just realising it's kind of like in a different context I want more time and motion studies of what teachers do because you know 90 plus percent of things that you do as a teacher you choose to do yourself. Sometimes and this is a word we don't use very often sometimes we're not very efficient. Sometimes we think giving more is better. It's not in this case." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "526.74", "endTime": "562.565", "body": "It's giving it about improvement. We did actually a study 3,000 or so I've forgotten the numbers now assignments where the students handed them in. We actually got the computer humans to mark them. We handed them back. They handed them in again and then we analysed the feedback relative to the improvement and all the improvement in the students work was related to the feedback they got specifically about this is how you could improve this is where you could improve this go and look up more on this and do this as opposed to those who did the the red pen correct tick tick And all that red pen tick tick is okay, but you're not gonna get the dividend." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "562.565", "endTime": "566.725", "body": "So teachers give less about the right stuff." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "567.925", "endTime": "603.45", "body": "I like it. That that helps clear up maybe some some mis conceptions that I think a lot of faculty and teachers may have, which is you need to write long and verbose, you know, pros on what the student did well. You had you create this feedback sandwich. Right? It's, you know, good, and then maybe some some negative and then some, you know, encouragement again and you nice you know, create this nice little feedback sandwich, and then, of course, the students are gonna love it." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "603.45", "endTime": "616.435", "body": "And what I'm hearing you say is that's terrible. And what our listeners can't see with the video that I have is as soon as I said that, you went crazy." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "618.515", "endTime": "628.675", "body": "I do go crazy. I do. Look. That's just the biggest furphy that we know of. Let's go to another side and come back." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "628.675", "endTime": "629.15497", "body": "Okay." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "629.15497", "endTime": "662.37006", "body": "Praise, which is the part of your feedback sandwich. It has the effect of diluting the feedback. Like if I gave you feedback and said, look, you did really well on the podcast today. You blipped in the middle where you made that mistake but oh my gosh your effort, your energy, your commitment etc etc and then I come back to you a couple of days later and said write down what he said about the feedback. You would write down all the praise because you're human and as humans we love praise and so that praise dilutes the feedback." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "662.45", "endTime": "701.245", "body": "I want teachers to praise kids because that's an incredible source of motivation. It's an incredible source of student teacher relationships but when it comes to the work, don't do it. Just focus on the one and focus on those improving information. Like one of the things we call it teacher credibility. Before a student walks into your classroom I interview the student and said are you going learn something from this teacher today and they say no I don't care what you do it's not going to work and what they mean is no this teacher is not going to improve me and there's a lot of kids sitting in your class with that view already." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "701.245", "endTime": "762.015", "body": "So no wonder they're not listening to your feedback. I want you to think of your feedback that you give as improvement and it's again you sit there and you write. Well one of our rules is that teachers should not give more feedback than what the kids have written themselves and it's got to be refocused. The other thing that we do and I've done it certainly in my graduate classes many times is I get the students before they hand it in to me they have to hand it in to two other students who comment on it and 99% of the time those students comment on all the facts, the mistakes and grammar, the mistakes and punctuation and say to the students I want you to improve that and you hand in your final assignment and the two comments you got from the students to make sure that they're not idiotic, stupid and insulting. Find that because kids can be really harsh so teaching other kids to be critics and then you'll find that a lot of the stuff that you typically write your feedback on has already picked up." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "762.895", "endTime": "777.09", "body": "Writing all those comments, often you get people arguing that your comments are better than grades. Well sometimes the grades got more information for the student than the comment. What is the information and the feedback? What is the student actually reading? That's what you've got to get your head around." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "777.41003", "endTime": "794.455", "body": "What are they actually reading here? Interviewing them, asking them as I say to jot down points, making them realize that I want you to actually process this feedback. I didn't spend all Sunday writing it so that you could skim through, look at the grade and then put it away. I want you to actually process it." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "795.09503", "endTime": "818.815", "body": "You also distinguish between four levels of feedback, which I think seemed very helpful. And I wonder if you would just go through those here with us and and and, you know, maybe dig into it a little bit deeper in terms of how faculty or teachers could understand this and how they view their feedback?" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "819.775", "endTime": "831.82", "body": "The first level is the task level, and this is the content, the facts. This is their knowledge. This is what we want kids to know. And the view that I'm putting to you is I'm greedy. I want them all." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "831.82", "endTime": "833.10004", "body": "It's not either or here." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "833.10004", "endTime": "833.58", "body": "And" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "833.74005", "endTime": "863.95", "body": "so there's nothing wrong with giving feedback about the grammatical errors, the spelling errors, the factual errors, all that kind of stuff. And unfortunately 90 plus percent of our feedback to students is at that level, both written and verbal. That is too much. The second level we call the process level and this is where you, the teacher, are still there. You're still working with the students and you're helping them understand, particularly error management." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "864.43", "endTime": "882.805", "body": "Most kids realize after a while in schools that the job of the teacher is to find out where they made mistakes. So it's not their job anymore. As long as they hand something in regardless of quality, that's good enough. Teachers then find errors. The process stage is where you're helping the student say hey there's some mistakes we've made in here let's work together to find out where they are." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "882.805", "endTime": "909.745", "body": "And notice the key operative word there is let's work together because in the next stage the self regulation we're going get the student to do it first. But at that process stage you want the students and the other one is connections. Look there's no connection between here you started this paragraph talking about this you've ended up miles away. Let's look at the connections here about how you write an idea and explore it. That's what the paragraph's about etc and let's look at that processing of the content that you're using here." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "910.065", "endTime": "944.39", "body": "You've made this claim here and it's kind of inconsistent with over here. So you're at that stage where you're working with the students about the ideas and how they come together, how they relate, how their problem's solved. Then the third stage, the self regulation, is you want the students to do this first. You want them to take the initiative to do this and you want to give them the feedback like I'd say to you look you've made a mistake here work out where that is come back and tell me. And so you get them to take that sort of ownership of that where your feedback is pointing out they're going in the wrong direction, turn your car around and find the right road." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "944.87", "endTime": "975.91", "body": "Now our argument is that depending on what you're asking the students to do, like if you're asking the students to write a factual essay about content with beautiful grammar punctuation then a lot of your feedback should be at the task level. But I don't think that's what most teachers do and so what I think we should be looking at is what is the feedback about? Is it about the task? Give it about the task and a little bit about the process. There's no point giving self regulation feedback." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "975.91", "endTime": "1004.64", "body": "It's not going to have an effect. But the opposite is also the case. If it's about where you want students to take some ownership of ideas and problem solving and initiative, the last thing you want to do is pound them with task feedback because it says to them you're working at the wrong level and that's what happens in too many classes. And so we use this plus one principle where's the student working at? Give them 80% of the feedback at that level, 20% at the next level to push them up, push them up, push them up." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1004.90497", "endTime": "1026.4899", "body": "Now, you said four levels and you're right. Praise that's the fourth level and that's the one where I mentioned it has a diluting effect. Want you to stop it when you're giving feedback about the task, about the process, the self regulation. Be very careful about that. It's one of the hardest things we get teachers to try and do." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1026.97", "endTime": "1052.1", "body": "Fundamentally, and this is a wonderful problem to have, teachers are kind people. They want to see the best. But when we first talked about this, one of the wrong messages teachers walked away with is you can't praise kids, you've got to be horrible to them. That's not our message at all and so those three levels of feedback are really what we're trying to push, particularly saying do you really have to give all that information at the task level? Back off sometime." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1052.66", "endTime": "1066.005", "body": "Get the kids to focus on the process. Get the kids to take some responsibility. Now this is where peer assessment is very good. Take the strong line, peers cannot grade assignments. That's not their job." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1066.005", "endTime": "1102.6549", "body": "They don't have the knowledge that you have at all, but they can comment. And you say to them, I want you to comment about the idea. Don't comment about the grammar, don't comment about the spelling, comment about the idea. Sometimes you say I want you to comment about the spelling and the factual stuff and start to teach them the difference of those three levels so that they realize that the feedback is that and then even in your comments when you're writing to the students you can have three sections. It's probably three is too many but this is the comments about the tasks, this is the comment about well I saw you making the right connections and here's where I saw you taking great initiatives." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1103.215", "endTime": "1126.7649", "body": "That's probably a big ask but that's the three levels. 90% written and verbal feedback is at the task level. Sometimes it's good taking a video of your class and running it through some of these AI machines you know with care because there's all kinds of downsides with open access. But if you have a closed system running your video through and asking how much feedback do you give about the facts. It's scary." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1127.005", "endTime": "1131.88", "body": "Yeah. No wonder kids think that what you value is facts." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1133.4", "endTime": "1152.385", "body": "This is really good. You keep moving us along in our conversation here, just by what you're saying. And I think one of the things I wanna come back to, though, is the task level. You say we spend about 90% of our time there or most teachers do, I think is the assertion." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1152.545", "endTime": "1153.1849", "body": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1153.185", "endTime": "1155.665", "body": "How do you know when you've hit the right balance?" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1157.3601", "endTime": "1192.7098", "body": "Lynch Ratte and I wrote a book last year, paid commercial advertisement here, on what we think is the one of the most missed concepts of the whole of education. Listening. Are you a good listener as a teacher? And by that I mean not that you hear but that you also understand and you also appreciate it. A lot of kids when they ask you something or they talk to you about it they are listening very carefully to think can he stand in my shoes and understand what I'm saying?" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1192.71", "endTime": "1224.5099", "body": "He doesn't have to agree with me, but I'm struggling here and I don't know where I'm struggling and all this teacher is doing telling me I'm getting a role. I don't know how I'm getting it wrong. I don't know how the other students are doing things and so this teacher is not a listener. And when the students realize that, then it's not surprising they don't listen to that wonderful feedback that you give. And so we spend a lot of time now looking at how much listening is going on particularly by the teacher of the students." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1225.63", "endTime": "1267.5549", "body": "Go back to that twelve thousand hours we have of classroom observation and we were writing this article on how students think in terms of their learning and we asked the question in those twelve thousand hours, which is almost an entire lifetime of a kid at a school, how many times did the teacher think aloud or did the teacher ask a student to think aloud? It's zero and I'm hoping like most teachers when we tell this that's not in my class, I hope you triple and quadruple what you already do. Kids want to know that's sitting there all the time saying how did he do it? How did he get that? They want to hear the thinking and this is where listening is so powerful." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1267.6349", "endTime": "1298.195", "body": "I want you to think aloud and I want you to make a mistake or put a mistake up on the board and say to the students I want you to work out how the students made that mistake. I guarantee five or six kids in the class will make that mistake and they will be seen as wrong. They're not wrong. They just didn't get the thinking or the processing right and our job is to teach them those learning strategies, teach them that notion. I think this is what focuses on here is to what degree are the teacher and the students great listeners?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1299.475", "endTime": "1328.1349", "body": "You talk about minimizing ego threat and then also welcoming error. Right? So I think that's one of the challenges for faculty and teachers is to make error to make failure okay, and also to be able to correct a student but not have it be detrimental to their ego. So talk to us about that." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1328.615", "endTime": "1341.8799", "body": "Rob, you're so right there that students are humans. Yeah. Are sensitive to ego threat. And on the other hand, no student comes into your class to learn that which they already know. Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1341.8799", "endTime": "1363.0499", "body": "That's why they don't know. So we've got to find a way to make errors opportunities to learn, not sources of embarrassment. This depends very much on you and how you see errors, how you treat them. As I mentioned and hinted at earlier, one of the biggest issues is peer reactions. There goes old stupid talking again." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1363.13", "endTime": "1388.6699", "body": "Look, you've come up and presented this flow diagram on the board and look at all those mistakes up there. So do you when the students come up and talk about their flow diagram ask the other students how could improve this? I want you to be the teachers now because one of our arguments is that the fundamental purpose of education is to help students to become their teachers. How would they improve this? So that this class works together." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1388.67", "endTime": "1408.585", "body": "Your job is to watch that ego threat. You don't want kids who make terrible mistakes to be hinted at that are dumb and stupid. They didn't, they made a mistake and so the argument we put is that challenge making mistakes is normal. Now we also have this notion that we use of the learning pit. There's a time when you're in the learning pit." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1408.585", "endTime": "1430.0249", "body": "You're in the learning pit right now We want errors. We want mistakes. We want you to talk about what you don't know and we're going to work together and we're to list all these things out and then we're going to deal with it. So we're legitimising thinking about what we don't know because every kid who comes to your class every time, they don't know, which is why they're there. And so how do we make that normal?" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1430.025", "endTime": "1442.65", "body": "And so this is again what we often do in our walkthroughs. Count the error. You can go days and days walking through classrooms and never see an error. Again, we're kind people. We don't want to embarrass kids." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1442.81", "endTime": "1467.065", "body": "So we make sure when we ask a tough question, we pick a kid who's got a high probability of getting it right and we ignore the others. That's not the best way to legitimize the error. You have to go down and as you go with your class, because it sounds like a great problem solving class, that when you're into problem solving, that's the time to wallow in the errors. If it's about the facts and the content, fix it. That's not the time." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1467.385", "endTime": "1491.765", "body": "But at that stage, that's where we would pause and so I wouldn't be correcting a kid because they got the year of something wrong or they got some reference wrong or they got some detail wrong. I say we can deal with that later. Let's work now on how you make connections relationships between ideas. Notice I'm trying to do this all the time without talking about how good you are, how wonderful you are, I love what you think. All that kind of personal stuff which kids are listening for all the time." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1492.165", "endTime": "1528.335", "body": "They want to be affirmed and they're listening for it. Don't give it to them at that stage because when they make an error you're not going to say to them 'Look you made the biggest blooper ever. I've taught that thing six times and you still don't get it.' We all need five to seven opportunities to learn something before we get up, which means four or five opportunities we're not going to get it right but we are learning and the last thing we want to stop is that learning process. So I think that the argument I'm putting to you is that we really do have to be sensitive about students' egos. We really do have to be sensitive about when students make errors or mistakes that we don't see that as an embarrassment." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1529.07", "endTime": "1542.0299", "body": "I'm a granddad. It's wonderful. And I'm watching my grandkids start school. It's scary how quick they learn to shut up when they don't know and look like they don't. And that is not in their best interest." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1543.3049", "endTime": "1581.695", "body": "Here's one of the good things AI has got incredible downsides, I agree. But one of the nice things is that I can ask the students to put their work into an AI machine with the appropriate prompting and hopefully it's closed so it's not going out to the rest of the world and say tell me where I've made the mistake. It is much better at error detection than we are and what do I do now? Teach the students how to use that tool to work out their errors and mistakes and it's a safer way for them to do it because if you've prompted it right, it doesn't come back and say, look any guy that wears a red shirt must be stupid. You can't do that." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1581.695", "endTime": "1599.235", "body": "It doesn't do any of that kind of nonsense. It focuses entirely on the content. And I think this is a really massively powerful tool that we can use to help the kids understand that eras are opportunities. They play their video games because they've made mistakes and they learn from them and they're obsessed." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1599.3151", "endTime": "1602.3551", "body": "Yeah. And they're able to just get back at it." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1602.3551", "endTime": "1608.275", "body": "Because they know they're going to improve. Yep. And they know how to improve. They know how to get help. That is seek help." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1608.435", "endTime": "1617.95", "body": "They know how to try again. They had to learn from their feedback. And I think we could do a lot looking at those video games and saying, how do those guys do it? Why aren't we copying them?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1618.4299", "endTime": "1648.71", "body": "Oh, I don't disagree with you. I think, in terms of, like, things that I have learned, things that made a big difference to me were things that actually either the professor or teacher made a good case for the content being what I needed to hear and help me buy into the idea that I needed to pay attention because it had a payoff at the end. Those are the ones that I that I remember the most." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1649.03", "endTime": "1684.235", "body": "We did a study of by by chance, I happened to have data from asking adults to remember their best teacher and why quite a few 100 of them. And we did an analysis of that and there's two reasons: either and you said the first one that teacher turned you on to their passion and or that teacher saw something in you you didn't see in yourself. Not one of them said it was because of maths or physics or phys ed. It was to do with passion and expectations. How difficult is that?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1684.395", "endTime": "1704.44", "body": "It's completely different. So last question. We have quite a few people listening to us and we have our mostly faculty, but you've got one thing you want to tell them. One thing that they can put into practice, like, today, in the next fifteen minutes. What do you want to say?" }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1705.955", "endTime": "1748.2699", "body": "Every time you walk into a classroom, I want you to say, my job here today is to listen to my impact. And then your students are the beneficiaries. And that means listening to what you taught well and what you didn't teach well through the eyes of the students, who you taught well, who you didn't teach well through the eyes of the students, and how much value did you add from today's session. Your job is not to teach the curriculum, engage kids in interesting activities, to get kids to problem solve. They're all the side effects and important effects of education, but the fundamental issue is I want you to walk in and say my job is to listen to my impact." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1748.51", "endTime": "1766.4349", "body": "Your kids will pick it up instantly. They will then realize that you are their biggest improvement engine to go alongside what they want to do. If you asked me the second question, which you didn't, what do you mean by impact? And you mentioned one just a moment ago, I want kids to be turned on to this business ethics. I think it's a great topic." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1766.515", "endTime": "1781.0599", "body": "That's an impact. I want them to get better at I want them to be invested in it. I want them to enjoy it. Lots of different notions of impact, but I do want you to walk in and say, my job here today is to evaluate my impact. I" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1781.0599", "endTime": "1790.455", "body": "think that's great. John, it's been great having you on the show. Look forward to talking to you again, and hopefully next time Jared could be with us." }, { "speaker": "John Hattie", "startTime": "1790.535", "endTime": "1792.135", "body": "Thank you. Thank you for that." }, { "speaker": "Ryan", "startTime": "1792.135", "endTime": "1809.6595", "body": "Thanks for listening to this episode Transform Your Teaching. Remember to like and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Please also, if you have a comment or a question, feel free to reach out to us on LinkedIn. And don't forget to check out our blog, cedarville.edu/focusblog. Thanks for listening." } ] }