WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.290 Matt: Hey, Brendan, welcome to the program. 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:03.739 Brendan: Hey, Matt, thanks for having me. 00:00:04.030 --> 00:00:05.960 Matt: we were just chatting before we hit record. 00:00:06.030 --> 00:00:07.140 this is the first time we've met. 00:00:07.140 --> 00:00:11.810 I've seen you maybe chatted with you, through YouTube's chat box, but 00:00:11.830 --> 00:00:15.590 other than that, it's a pleasure to finally connect and, and have you on. 00:00:15.890 --> 00:00:17.969 You run, well, you do a lot of things. 00:00:17.970 --> 00:00:20.130 We're going to get into it, but your YouTube channel, just so I can call 00:00:20.130 --> 00:00:23.670 it out at the top of the show and get everybody subscribing to your channel. 00:00:24.025 --> 00:00:25.955 As well, it's youtube. 00:00:25.955 --> 00:00:30.884 com slash at Brendan O'Connell W P I have that. 00:00:30.885 --> 00:00:31.385 Correct. 00:00:32.805 --> 00:00:35.155 You cover a lot of brick stuff, other WordPress tutorials. 00:00:35.155 --> 00:00:36.904 We're going to talk about that in a little bit. 00:00:36.935 --> 00:00:38.794 Your full time job is at an agency. 00:00:38.795 --> 00:00:41.344 Then you also do your own consultancy. 00:00:41.345 --> 00:00:42.445 You have your own practice. 00:00:42.725 --> 00:00:45.805 On the side, we're going to chat all about that. 00:00:46.255 --> 00:00:48.025 how long have you been doing this WordPress thing? 00:00:49.810 --> 00:00:53.010 Brendan: Yeah, so I've, I've been a WordPress user sort of full 00:00:53.010 --> 00:00:55.340 time, I guess, since about 2017. 00:00:55.800 --> 00:00:59.620 Dabbled in it a little bit before that and just really enjoyed 00:00:59.620 --> 00:01:01.050 the whole, the whole experience. 00:01:01.050 --> 00:01:01.730 Learned a lot. 00:01:02.030 --> 00:01:05.000 There's so many great people in this space to learn from. 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:07.670 And, the agency I work at is actually pre WordPress. 00:01:07.730 --> 00:01:12.790 So they've been around for like 25 years and didn't use that for a long time. 00:01:13.310 --> 00:01:16.670 I've sort of helped them transition to using WordPress full time. 00:01:16.820 --> 00:01:18.950 So, that's sort of what I've been doing. 00:01:18.955 --> 00:01:21.635 Matt: What were they using like a homegrown CMS or were 00:01:21.635 --> 00:01:23.695 they using another platform 00:01:23.855 --> 00:01:26.605 Brendan: Yeah, they're using something they built on Ruby on 00:01:26.605 --> 00:01:31.075 rails that is very much on rails, so to speak, in the sense that there's 00:01:31.075 --> 00:01:32.455 like a lot of guardrails built in. 00:01:32.455 --> 00:01:37.555 So the notion of working with WordPress was kind of off the table because it was 00:01:37.555 --> 00:01:41.295 just too much freedom for the clients that we wanted to serve, I guess. 00:01:42.055 --> 00:01:45.755 Matt: Well, back in my day when, before I got my experience with WordPress, I 00:01:45.755 --> 00:01:49.365 was working at an ISP, internet service provider, and we purchased another ISP. 00:01:49.375 --> 00:01:54.085 They had a web development firm attached to it and, they were using their own. 00:01:54.095 --> 00:01:55.675 This is many, many years ago. 00:01:55.850 --> 00:01:59.660 they're using their own homegrown CMS called Squirrel. 00:02:00.070 --> 00:02:05.520 it was a play on SQL and some of the terminology around it, that 00:02:05.520 --> 00:02:09.090 the developers built, but it was very much a homegrown system. 00:02:09.140 --> 00:02:13.150 What's the, what, what type of, sites are you building at the agency? 00:02:13.150 --> 00:02:17.120 Is it, are they still all 100 percent now on WordPress or are they still 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.750 transitioning the, the rail stuff? 00:02:19.770 --> 00:02:22.669 What does that client look like, at the agency day job? 00:02:22.670 --> 00:02:24.699 Do 00:02:24.995 --> 00:02:27.635 Brendan: hundred active clients and some of them have been around 00:02:27.635 --> 00:02:31.804 since, as I said, pre WordPress, you know, they've had retheming done 00:02:31.804 --> 00:02:33.235 on the sites and things like that. 00:02:33.335 --> 00:02:35.615 so probably about half of the clients are still on that and then 00:02:35.625 --> 00:02:37.504 the other half are on WordPress. 00:02:37.964 --> 00:02:40.005 And so, you know, it's a slow transition. 00:02:40.005 --> 00:02:41.325 It's there's a lot going on there. 00:02:41.325 --> 00:02:43.625 And of course we have new projects coming in all the time. 00:02:44.620 --> 00:02:48.830 But the typical client is, is honestly probably just a small business client 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:52.090 that, that is under 20 employees total. 00:02:52.340 --> 00:02:53.789 we have a good number of those. 00:02:53.820 --> 00:02:58.279 I would say also that because we're, you know, we're in a fairly small town 00:02:58.289 --> 00:03:04.050 in California, you know, not in LA, but in the peripheries, basically that, we 00:03:04.050 --> 00:03:08.110 have a lot of clients that are actual like government service providers, 00:03:08.140 --> 00:03:11.510 city, city projects that happen. 00:03:11.610 --> 00:03:17.260 So we do have, there's an ability to sort of get a leg into the clients 00:03:17.260 --> 00:03:21.170 that have, you know, I guess higher budgets too, but also, you know, more 00:03:21.170 --> 00:03:25.770 importantly have clients in there, you know, working in the site and trying to 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:29.080 build stuff, in a very long term manner. 00:03:30.355 --> 00:03:34.895 A lot of, you know, like the local trash company and then they, they sponsor events 00:03:34.895 --> 00:03:36.715 and then you, you get those sites too. 00:03:36.715 --> 00:03:39.725 And so you build a network within your local community. 00:03:39.725 --> 00:03:42.525 I think that, I think that's sort of overlooked these days that people, 00:03:42.525 --> 00:03:46.695 everyone wants to like work overseas and, you know, all that stuff, which 00:03:46.695 --> 00:03:49.768 is, you know, there's merit to that, but, yeah, we've had good success 00:03:49.768 --> 00:03:52.198 working with a lot of local businesses. 00:03:52.463 --> 00:03:56.533 Matt: you find yourself looking for the same type of client, smaller client for 00:03:57.073 --> 00:03:58.843 your own consultancy, your own practice? 00:03:58.843 --> 00:04:01.603 How do you figure out which client you'd like to take on 00:04:01.613 --> 00:04:02.423 for that side of the house? 00:04:04.708 --> 00:04:07.638 Brendan: Yeah, I mean, it's a good question because it's always 00:04:07.638 --> 00:04:11.218 sort of a gamble that you make when you're taking on more and 00:04:11.218 --> 00:04:13.188 more complex projects, especially. 00:04:13.318 --> 00:04:16.458 I mean, right now, I just do this by myself, but you know, 00:04:16.458 --> 00:04:17.468 I have people I can lean on. 00:04:17.468 --> 00:04:20.948 But the fact of the matter is that, do you want to pay your bills doing 00:04:20.948 --> 00:04:22.958 a lot of really complex projects? 00:04:23.388 --> 00:04:27.343 Or do you want to have More reliable, like steady income. 00:04:27.343 --> 00:04:29.113 That's maybe smaller projects. 00:04:29.163 --> 00:04:30.283 there's, there's merit to that. 00:04:30.303 --> 00:04:32.163 I, you know, what do I prefer? 00:04:32.523 --> 00:04:33.943 I'm here to, I'm here to grow. 00:04:34.113 --> 00:04:35.053 I I'd like to learn more. 00:04:35.053 --> 00:04:39.383 I'd like to, to work on projects that are, have, have higher stakes. 00:04:39.433 --> 00:04:39.833 Right. 00:04:39.953 --> 00:04:43.303 but I can totally see the merit in, in not always pursuing that. 00:04:44.138 --> 00:04:47.768 Matt: I just did a live stream with Mark Szymanski and we were talking about 00:04:47.768 --> 00:04:51.498 like the types of clients because he and I, you know, he's always chatting 00:04:51.498 --> 00:04:54.578 me up about stuff, about, you know, running the agency, running the business. 00:04:54.578 --> 00:04:58.098 And I know there's always, he's always putting out a lot of content on the page 00:04:58.098 --> 00:05:00.088 builder side, like when to use bricks. 00:05:00.088 --> 00:05:03.678 And I know there's always a constant, tug of war happening with like, 00:05:03.858 --> 00:05:07.408 Hey, WordPress core, like site editor, Gutenberg block editor 00:05:07.718 --> 00:05:09.798 versus fill in the blank with these. 00:05:09.813 --> 00:05:12.513 Your favorite page builder, whether it's bricks elements or beaver 00:05:12.513 --> 00:05:17.103 builder, Divi, there's always that, that constant, Discussion or debate 00:05:17.103 --> 00:05:18.783 happening, which is, which is cool. 00:05:19.243 --> 00:05:21.283 but sometimes like at the end of the day, the client. 00:05:21.853 --> 00:05:25.363 Just wants the solution like the client there's clients out there There's 00:05:25.363 --> 00:05:29.283 I don't I don't care what you build it on just yeah, I need you to solve 00:05:29.303 --> 00:05:37.263 my problem and that's that can range pretty greatly in the agency space and 00:05:37.953 --> 00:05:38.653 Brendan: Absolutely. 00:05:38.733 --> 00:05:42.483 Matt: and I talked about is like hey, maybe maybe you just want to stay like 00:05:42.873 --> 00:05:46.438 what I'll call like freelancer level That doesn't even mean like Small budgets. 00:05:46.438 --> 00:05:52.248 It just means I just want to be able to maintain a stable of customers 00:05:52.268 --> 00:05:55.058 that I don't need to hire people. 00:05:55.618 --> 00:05:57.048 I don't need to grow a team. 00:05:57.048 --> 00:06:00.668 I don't need to be doing payroll and increasing my insurances 00:06:00.668 --> 00:06:02.038 and getting office space. 00:06:02.038 --> 00:06:05.238 Like I just want to stay in this lane, which means I might be capped 00:06:05.238 --> 00:06:08.918 revenue wise, but that doesn't mean like you're getting small projects. 00:06:09.368 --> 00:06:11.588 Brendan: it doesn't mean you can't grow in the future too. 00:06:11.708 --> 00:06:15.628 If you're building up a steady supply of, of recurring business, you have 00:06:15.628 --> 00:06:18.908 happy clients that are starting to refer, you can always scale later. 00:06:19.768 --> 00:06:21.498 Matt: Do you do you for your own stuff? 00:06:21.498 --> 00:06:25.408 Do you use Bricks or I guess at the agency and your stuff. 00:06:25.408 --> 00:06:27.138 Do you use bricks in both places? 00:06:28.658 --> 00:06:29.018 Brendan: I do. 00:06:29.038 --> 00:06:32.898 Yeah, I, I sort of came to bricks personally and brought it to the agency 00:06:33.228 --> 00:06:35.088 and proposed that we started using that. 00:06:35.228 --> 00:06:39.848 So it was, it was a hard sell and it took me probably a year just to convince them. 00:06:41.128 --> 00:06:42.988 Not that we were super happy with Divi. 00:06:42.988 --> 00:06:45.518 Although, you know, Divi will always have a soft spot in my heart. 00:06:45.808 --> 00:06:49.888 It was the first PagerBuilder I really fell in love with and saw, saw the 00:06:49.888 --> 00:06:53.028 vision because I don't really come from a strong, you know, I'm not a 00:06:53.238 --> 00:06:55.338 coder by, by training necessarily. 00:06:55.338 --> 00:06:57.548 It's sort of by, I've thrown into the gauntlet. 00:06:57.948 --> 00:07:00.858 so, but I, I've really taken to bricks and I really saw the 00:07:00.858 --> 00:07:03.798 vision of the workflow for me. 00:07:03.828 --> 00:07:07.418 And, and I just had to, I had to get them on board. 00:07:07.448 --> 00:07:09.358 And it, so far it's been a great experience. 00:07:10.088 --> 00:07:14.908 Matt: i'd imagine and this is no offense to you, but I imagine that if they 00:07:14.908 --> 00:07:20.438 built something Homegrown with ruby on rails that they have more like hardcore 00:07:20.438 --> 00:07:23.778 developers on the team that built that And then when you bring in a tool like 00:07:23.778 --> 00:07:29.398 this, they're like no We we want to write lines of code to get the job done. 00:07:29.608 --> 00:07:30.508 Did that happen? 00:07:30.508 --> 00:07:31.458 Is that a fair assessment? 00:07:32.373 --> 00:07:33.283 Brendan: Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:33.283 --> 00:07:36.803 I mean, that's why just moving to WordPress was not even 00:07:36.803 --> 00:07:38.393 on the table for many years. 00:07:38.493 --> 00:07:42.933 you know, so I would say getting them on board with that was, 00:07:42.963 --> 00:07:44.173 was a challenge for sure. 00:07:44.253 --> 00:07:48.963 But I think they, they have seen the vision that, you know, we have a certain 00:07:48.963 --> 00:07:53.363 set of tool set that we use now and the kind of projects we can build are just 00:07:53.533 --> 00:07:55.893 a lot better and they can scale better. 00:07:55.893 --> 00:07:56.043 Yeah. 00:07:56.373 --> 00:07:59.073 And it's easier for clients to edit at the end of the day. 00:08:00.578 --> 00:08:03.508 Matt: it putting bricks aside or putting a page builder aside. 00:08:03.548 --> 00:08:07.038 Did you have to sell them on the idea of WordPress? 00:08:07.068 --> 00:08:10.168 And if so, what was your sales pitch to the team? 00:08:12.143 --> 00:08:14.023 Brendan: Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. 00:08:14.113 --> 00:08:17.993 And it was kind of a few years ago now at this point, but a lot of it's 00:08:17.993 --> 00:08:20.253 driven by the feedback from clients. 00:08:20.483 --> 00:08:24.583 you know, we were not in the business of like blocking sites away from clients. 00:08:24.583 --> 00:08:29.103 And I do appreciate that WordPress has that sort of open, open source mentality. 00:08:29.103 --> 00:08:32.723 There's so many plugins and themes, but that was a downside for many years. 00:08:33.028 --> 00:08:35.628 because it was so, there's just too many options and 00:08:35.628 --> 00:08:36.588 that's probably still the case. 00:08:36.598 --> 00:08:37.848 There's how many themes, right? 00:08:38.218 --> 00:08:40.228 but was it a hard sell for WordPress? 00:08:40.248 --> 00:08:45.598 I think yes, security was always a concern to, client editing capabilities, 00:08:45.618 --> 00:08:48.428 but, but at the end of the day, clients would come to us and say, 00:08:48.428 --> 00:08:49.698 well, do you guys build with WordPress? 00:08:49.708 --> 00:08:53.838 And you know, we, we did and, but not in this, in the same scalable way. 00:08:54.208 --> 00:08:54.688 So. 00:08:54.753 --> 00:09:00.113 I think we just saw, I mean, anyone can tell you, right? 00:09:00.113 --> 00:09:02.293 How much WordPress content there is right there. 00:09:02.293 --> 00:09:03.763 There's so much out there. 00:09:03.763 --> 00:09:06.833 There's so much, data portability, all these things. 00:09:06.833 --> 00:09:08.493 I think that, we're important to clients. 00:09:09.688 --> 00:09:16.028 Matt: The, when you switched over from like moving from Divi to bricks, 00:09:17.338 --> 00:09:20.928 what did you have a, how did you introduce that to the customer? 00:09:20.928 --> 00:09:24.428 Cause that's always one of the issues I have when, when I ran an agency, 00:09:24.438 --> 00:09:30.088 it wasn't really until like the back half of my time there where I started 00:09:30.088 --> 00:09:32.283 using Again, this like years ago. 00:09:32.283 --> 00:09:34.153 So at the time is like beaver builder. 00:09:34.433 --> 00:09:39.203 It was the cleanest, best approach that I could see at the 00:09:39.213 --> 00:09:40.913 time for a page builder tool. 00:09:40.913 --> 00:09:41.783 And kudos to them. 00:09:41.793 --> 00:09:43.883 They're still, they're still doing their thing. 00:09:43.913 --> 00:09:45.283 Like they still have a customer base. 00:09:45.603 --> 00:09:48.833 If I were to ever go back into using a page builder full time, that's 00:09:49.023 --> 00:09:51.523 probably the one that I would pick because I feel most comfortable 00:09:51.523 --> 00:09:53.853 with them and they seem like good people and they're still in business. 00:09:54.163 --> 00:09:54.653 But the idea 00:09:54.793 --> 00:09:56.193 Brendan: And they're focused on the agency too. 00:09:56.193 --> 00:09:56.213 Is 00:09:56.233 --> 00:09:57.383 Matt: and they're focused on the, yeah. 00:09:57.383 --> 00:09:58.683 And they're focused on the agency. 00:09:59.473 --> 00:10:03.983 But the issue was like, man, I, I couldn't, there was no way I could 00:10:03.983 --> 00:10:09.163 use a page builder on a big, like one of our big like enterprise E clients. 00:10:09.523 --> 00:10:15.583 because there's just too much risk with, And I have to tell them, look, my, the 00:10:15.583 --> 00:10:16.763 whole site is built on beaver builder. 00:10:16.763 --> 00:10:19.493 And if something ever changed with beaver builder, they would 00:10:19.493 --> 00:10:23.203 look at me and go, wait a minute, you use that tool to build this. 00:10:23.443 --> 00:10:26.423 And I didn't want them ever to, to like, I didn't want to ever 00:10:26.423 --> 00:10:27.713 have to be in that scenario. 00:10:27.713 --> 00:10:34.293 So everything was more air quotes, hand built, more hand coded, traditionally for 00:10:34.293 --> 00:10:39.233 my bigger clients, but for the customers who were like, Price point and speed is 00:10:39.233 --> 00:10:41.693 our most important aspect of this project. 00:10:42.043 --> 00:10:42.553 Okay. 00:10:42.643 --> 00:10:46.303 Bring in the page builder, but the customers that wanted more 00:10:46.413 --> 00:10:48.713 stuff, had more functionality. 00:10:48.713 --> 00:10:53.053 It was like, Nope, you got a developer and a designer attached to 00:10:53.053 --> 00:10:54.803 this project as a project manager. 00:10:55.083 --> 00:10:56.363 This is a full scale thing. 00:10:56.363 --> 00:11:00.083 We're talking 120 days to roll out whatever it was with, you know, whatever 00:11:00.083 --> 00:11:01.263 it was we were building for them. 00:11:01.883 --> 00:11:03.763 that's a long way of getting to the question, which was, 00:11:03.813 --> 00:11:05.303 did you ever have that? 00:11:05.708 --> 00:11:10.898 What was that leap like for you, Divi to, bricks and did you have to have 00:11:10.898 --> 00:11:14.408 those conversations with customers or did it just get smoothed over as you 00:11:14.418 --> 00:11:16.148 maybe transitioned into a new project? 00:11:18.128 --> 00:11:21.768 Brendan: Yeah, I would say mostly clients don't even know what page 00:11:21.768 --> 00:11:23.288 builder they're using half the time. 00:11:23.288 --> 00:11:27.828 What site, when they log into their site, we, we tell them, we can give 00:11:27.828 --> 00:11:29.638 them instructions on it, all that stuff. 00:11:29.658 --> 00:11:34.578 But the way our clients are editing sites is usually in custom 00:11:34.578 --> 00:11:36.688 fields or with, with Gutenberg. 00:11:37.813 --> 00:11:40.043 They're not, they're not really in the bricks editor that much. 00:11:40.063 --> 00:11:44.813 Now we do have tools that allow them to do that, but I think there's a broader 00:11:44.813 --> 00:11:49.293 conversation right to be had about as an agency clients come to us and they 00:11:49.293 --> 00:11:53.833 trust us, whatever tool we use, I think at the end of the day, as, as long as 00:11:53.833 --> 00:11:55.183 we're getting the job done for them. 00:11:55.273 --> 00:11:58.533 Now there's a even broader conversation to be had about. 00:11:59.223 --> 00:12:03.943 using core, staying close to core, using, you know, custom blocks and 00:12:03.943 --> 00:12:06.973 custom themes for those types of clients. 00:12:06.993 --> 00:12:11.433 And that is something that I'm learning more about for sure. 00:12:11.703 --> 00:12:17.183 especially with the precarity of, of page builders, as you mentioned, I mean, 00:12:17.503 --> 00:12:19.203 you know, I'm all in with bricks, right? 00:12:19.203 --> 00:12:21.703 I'm here to sell everyone right on the vision. 00:12:22.003 --> 00:12:24.263 that being said, there was a huge hack earlier this year. 00:12:24.373 --> 00:12:26.843 There've been page builders, as we all know that come and go. 00:12:27.423 --> 00:12:30.443 So that is, those are real thoughts I have to have for sure. 00:12:30.458 --> 00:12:30.748 Matt: Yeah. 00:12:31.658 --> 00:12:37.158 The year, again, years ago, Divi was notorious and I don't fault them for this, 00:12:37.158 --> 00:12:41.408 like a lot of the stuff that, I, I try to see like both sides of the discussion 00:12:41.408 --> 00:12:46.943 because even like Gutenberg and, and site editor and, you know, All the stuff, all 00:12:46.943 --> 00:12:50.823 the stuff happening with WordPress is this is all like iterative and it's happening. 00:12:50.913 --> 00:12:52.993 Like it's, it is getting better. 00:12:53.343 --> 00:12:59.313 It's not like you haven't seen an update happen in, in six months, every 00:12:59.323 --> 00:13:03.603 week, if not every day, there's like something new that's coming and iterating. 00:13:03.603 --> 00:13:06.243 And that's largely how software works. 00:13:06.553 --> 00:13:08.123 Again, you look at the iPhone. 00:13:08.813 --> 00:13:10.533 Every year they come out with a new iPhone. 00:13:10.543 --> 00:13:14.243 You're just like, eh, it's just like 5 percent better, 10 00:13:14.243 --> 00:13:15.503 percent better than the last one. 00:13:15.503 --> 00:13:18.623 You're not like blown away by any change that they're making. 00:13:18.713 --> 00:13:22.283 But if you looked at the iPhone from five years ago, you'd be like, Oh wow, 00:13:22.603 --> 00:13:23.943 there's a lot of stuff changed here. 00:13:24.313 --> 00:13:26.953 I feel like that's the same way that all software works. 00:13:26.953 --> 00:13:28.383 We're slowly getting these updates. 00:13:29.043 --> 00:13:33.213 but Divi was notorious for, you know, if you, if you ever shut off 00:13:33.413 --> 00:13:34.923 it was a short codes everywhere. 00:13:35.468 --> 00:13:38.348 And there was no way you, you, you couldn't do anything with it. 00:13:38.358 --> 00:13:41.338 It's just, you, you just weren't, you weren't migrating away from that. 00:13:41.378 --> 00:13:42.128 You were stuck in it. 00:13:42.218 --> 00:13:45.138 And if you ever shut it off, your site was basically dismantled. 00:13:45.308 --> 00:13:47.578 And then you had to like rebuild from the ground up. 00:13:48.128 --> 00:13:49.588 I assume they've getting better. 00:13:49.588 --> 00:13:52.538 I'm assuming all these page builders are, are getting better. 00:13:52.748 --> 00:13:57.498 I know with Gutenberg, you can, Take the HTML of the block and 00:13:57.508 --> 00:13:59.258 bring that over to another platform. 00:13:59.288 --> 00:14:03.738 If you were to ever like leave WordPress, at least you had that, at the core level. 00:14:04.288 --> 00:14:08.988 you know, but customers might want to be bought into the WordPress experience 00:14:08.988 --> 00:14:12.818 because they might look at it and say, Hey, if we ever leave you as an agency or 00:14:12.818 --> 00:14:15.338 as a freelancer, we want that portability. 00:14:15.518 --> 00:14:18.888 Like we don't want that because we want to be able to take this somewhere else. 00:14:18.908 --> 00:14:20.848 And I guess you don't want to get caught flat footed. 00:14:21.288 --> 00:14:23.178 Not communicating that to the customer. 00:14:23.178 --> 00:14:24.918 If that makes sense, like you don't want to be the one that was like, 00:14:24.958 --> 00:14:26.118 Oh yeah, I built you this thing. 00:14:26.388 --> 00:14:29.818 Then they leave and then they, you know, you don't have a referral anymore 00:14:29.818 --> 00:14:32.838 cause you're like, God, Brandon, you, why did you build it with this? 00:14:32.858 --> 00:14:34.628 Cause we can't move it somewhere else. 00:14:34.828 --> 00:14:37.398 Brendan: And that's, and that gets back to why I tried to get 00:14:37.398 --> 00:14:40.288 people to, at my company, at my company to move to WordPress. 00:14:40.288 --> 00:14:40.458 Right. 00:14:40.458 --> 00:14:43.018 Because that, that is a real conversation that happens for 00:14:43.368 --> 00:14:43.748 Matt: yeah. 00:14:44.268 --> 00:14:45.458 Brendan: And same with like Webflow. 00:14:45.458 --> 00:14:48.808 I mean, you know, we got people that sometimes want a Webflow site and that's 00:14:48.808 --> 00:14:52.018 a conversation we have to have is like, and the same with Wix and Squarespace. 00:14:52.278 --> 00:14:53.758 Look, your data is there. 00:14:54.063 --> 00:14:56.593 If you ever want to move, you're rebuilding every single thing. 00:14:56.933 --> 00:14:57.213 So 00:14:57.768 --> 00:15:01.268 Matt: Do you, do you have a lot of requests for webflow at the agency? 00:15:01.593 --> 00:15:06.313 Brendan: not a lot, but that might be just the market we're in too. 00:15:06.313 --> 00:15:08.633 I mean, it could be the, our reputation too. 00:15:08.643 --> 00:15:09.163 Who knows? 00:15:09.183 --> 00:15:11.183 I mean, there's, there's all the things that factor there. 00:15:11.288 --> 00:15:14.318 Matt: One of the interesting things that I'm always like, Oh, 00:15:14.318 --> 00:15:15.788 always trying to monitor from. 00:15:16.628 --> 00:15:20.508 Like a consumer's perspective is all these like add ons and third party 00:15:20.508 --> 00:15:24.678 softwares already exist for Bricks and Bricks is still growing itself. 00:15:25.088 --> 00:15:32.298 Like at what point will you just see Bricks starting to absorb all of these add 00:15:32.298 --> 00:15:34.788 ons that are largely features of Bricks. 00:15:34.818 --> 00:15:36.018 And Bricks is like, Oh, you know what? 00:15:36.038 --> 00:15:37.198 We're, we're going to do it now. 00:15:37.398 --> 00:15:40.128 I mean, just like we've seen with WordPress and Jetpack, right? 00:15:40.763 --> 00:15:44.123 Brendan: Yeah, I think that, I think that's the business model in WordPress 00:15:44.213 --> 00:15:48.883 for the most part, let people iterate in the third party communities and 00:15:48.883 --> 00:15:50.823 subsume it, which is, it's fine. 00:15:51.023 --> 00:15:52.143 Bricks does the same thing. 00:15:52.163 --> 00:15:55.583 They've recently, they added a variable manager. 00:15:56.013 --> 00:15:58.803 they've added, you know, several different things that, that 00:15:58.973 --> 00:16:01.083 third party has already had. 00:16:01.183 --> 00:16:03.133 And that's good. 00:16:03.133 --> 00:16:03.623 I think. 00:16:04.458 --> 00:16:09.898 Matt: Do you see, what is the, is there a general feeling in the air about that? 00:16:09.898 --> 00:16:14.058 Like, sort of like when jet pack releases something, people are like, Oh God, 00:16:14.058 --> 00:16:15.648 you're, you're putting out a business. 00:16:15.648 --> 00:16:19.848 These other three small like plugin providers, is it a positive, 00:16:19.968 --> 00:16:22.878 feeling in the, in the brick space when, when that happens, is there 00:16:22.878 --> 00:16:27.628 a communication from bricks, the mothership to the third party ecosystem 00:16:27.698 --> 00:16:28.808 that you've, that you've noticed? 00:16:29.553 --> 00:16:32.263 Brendan: I think there, I think there is conversation between 00:16:32.273 --> 00:16:35.953 some of the third party plugin developers and Bricks leadership. 00:16:35.953 --> 00:16:37.123 I think that they're kept. 00:16:37.623 --> 00:16:40.293 I don't think there's anything not transparent about it. 00:16:40.293 --> 00:16:42.293 I think they just know the right questions to ask. 00:16:43.023 --> 00:16:46.053 And I think, for example, I'll give one the advanced themer add on. 00:16:46.543 --> 00:16:50.633 He, he was working on multi select in the panel, which actually Gutenberg 00:16:50.633 --> 00:16:54.253 has, where you can select multiple elements in the structure panel and 00:16:54.253 --> 00:16:58.173 delete or modify them how you want, not just element by element bricks 00:16:58.173 --> 00:16:59.403 has announced they're working on that. 00:16:59.403 --> 00:17:02.713 So I think he was, you know, disappointed, right? 00:17:02.713 --> 00:17:05.923 That he had, he had probably done half the work for it only to hear that 00:17:06.073 --> 00:17:07.733 bricks themselves were working on it. 00:17:07.753 --> 00:17:10.543 So there's, and that's a, that's a real concern, right? 00:17:10.543 --> 00:17:12.993 Cause he's one of our most talented developers in the community. 00:17:13.388 --> 00:17:15.348 shout out to Maxime of Advanced Themer. 00:17:15.398 --> 00:17:16.488 Matt: I mean, it happened with Elementor. 00:17:16.488 --> 00:17:19.058 I'm sure you've, you've seen it with probably Divi and obviously it happened 00:17:19.058 --> 00:17:21.988 with core WordPress, Jetpack and other plugins that are out there, but 00:17:21.988 --> 00:17:27.078 certainly with Elementor, once they were starting to skyrocket, it took 00:17:27.748 --> 00:17:31.858 a couple of years before I started to see this add on ecosystem happening. 00:17:31.858 --> 00:17:34.088 And it just seemed like out of nowhere, like. 00:17:34.603 --> 00:17:35.583 Bam, here's bricks. 00:17:35.603 --> 00:17:38.693 And then here's like this third party community, which I guess makes sense 00:17:38.693 --> 00:17:40.903 because everyone saw how fast it happened. 00:17:41.133 --> 00:17:45.233 Like how fast you could grow an ad on ecosystem with Elementor and cadence and 00:17:45.233 --> 00:17:49.283 all these other themes, generate press, of course, studio press from back in the day. 00:17:49.653 --> 00:17:52.903 yeah, I think a lot of people just saw the, the opportunity, 00:17:53.223 --> 00:17:55.513 Brendan: Yeah, and they are filling it, they are filling important 00:17:55.523 --> 00:17:57.533 gaps that Bricks hasn't met. 00:17:58.003 --> 00:18:00.173 so, or at least they're pushing the boundaries of 00:18:00.173 --> 00:18:01.753 what we expect as a community. 00:18:02.218 --> 00:18:02.998 Which I think is good. 00:18:02.998 --> 00:18:06.078 I think it's, it's sort of that healthy competition within the bricks community 00:18:06.078 --> 00:18:09.588 that we all love within WordPress that keeps people on their toes, 00:18:09.598 --> 00:18:11.628 keeps people iterating and innovating. 00:18:12.218 --> 00:18:17.148 So I, I see it as a positive and I hope that third party developers see, their 00:18:17.148 --> 00:18:22.508 work that inspires bricks, the, you know, the, the core of bricks to, to get better. 00:18:22.678 --> 00:18:24.718 I would see that as a positive for the whole community. 00:18:25.738 --> 00:18:29.488 Matt: One of the things that I've, I've talked about, publicly before is. 00:18:30.683 --> 00:18:36.168 I feel like Folks will jump pretty quickly, like jump off their, their, their 00:18:36.168 --> 00:18:42.908 tool of choice for something cheaper with one or two more features, maybe it's not 00:18:42.918 --> 00:18:46.538 happening as much these days, but man, I feel like over the last couple of years. 00:18:46.858 --> 00:18:49.718 It was just like, man, a new feet, new thing, oxygens out. 00:18:49.898 --> 00:18:51.498 Let's jump to this break dance things out. 00:18:51.498 --> 00:18:53.308 Let's dance over that direction. 00:18:53.348 --> 00:18:54.068 Here comes bricks. 00:18:54.068 --> 00:18:55.258 Let's, let's get that too. 00:18:55.648 --> 00:19:00.618 I feel like there's, there's a lot of freelancers or agencies that weren't 00:19:00.638 --> 00:19:06.053 really investing in the tool themselves to like, let these, Let these things mature, 00:19:06.123 --> 00:19:11.223 like you bought it, buy into it and keep investing in them so that they survive. 00:19:11.653 --> 00:19:16.543 but then also like you must be setting up a bird's nest of a system 00:19:16.543 --> 00:19:19.083 to, to support in your own business. 00:19:19.113 --> 00:19:22.703 Like six customers over here have this tool, eight customers 00:19:22.703 --> 00:19:23.773 over there have that tool. 00:19:23.773 --> 00:19:24.573 And now you're onto this. 00:19:24.973 --> 00:19:28.893 This new thing that's just my general sentiment no direct question But did 00:19:28.893 --> 00:19:30.383 you have you observed that at all? 00:19:30.453 --> 00:19:31.703 Do you have any feelings on on 00:19:31.813 --> 00:19:35.073 Brendan: Yeah, absolutely because I mean you brought up beaver builder 00:19:35.103 --> 00:19:37.968 in that example earlier And I think a lot of people have been 00:19:37.968 --> 00:19:41.523 10 year anniversary Maybe more. 00:19:41.773 --> 00:19:44.423 that's a stable builder to use at this point. 00:19:44.423 --> 00:19:44.613 Right? 00:19:44.613 --> 00:19:47.123 I mean, like that, that's something that hasn't gone out of business. 00:19:47.463 --> 00:19:50.783 and so I think, I think there's, there's something to that. 00:19:50.823 --> 00:19:52.843 Like having too many, too many things that we're learning. 00:19:52.843 --> 00:19:54.863 There's always going to be new, something new popping up. 00:19:54.903 --> 00:19:55.613 Absolutely. 00:19:55.833 --> 00:19:58.633 and, and I, I fall, I fall prey to that too, unfortunately. 00:19:58.713 --> 00:20:00.273 I, I, I'm really trying not to do that. 00:20:00.273 --> 00:20:04.273 And part of that is me actually jumping into core, WordPress into 00:20:04.273 --> 00:20:06.533 Gutenberg and just building layouts. 00:20:06.763 --> 00:20:09.513 Because I think not enough people are just going in there and seeing. 00:20:09.968 --> 00:20:12.358 Like you talked about some of those improvements, some of those small 00:20:12.358 --> 00:20:13.988 improvements, we see the preview of 6. 00:20:13.988 --> 00:20:15.218 6 coming. 00:20:15.478 --> 00:20:17.348 There's a lot of stuff that's, that's improving. 00:20:17.748 --> 00:20:22.888 And I am making a concerted effort myself to like, stay on top of that, 00:20:22.938 --> 00:20:26.378 best I can, you know, I don't have so much time in the day, but not enough 00:20:26.378 --> 00:20:30.138 people are just, you know, Thinking about, I think, yeah, you're right. 00:20:30.138 --> 00:20:32.558 It's going from builder to builder is not the way to go. 00:20:32.558 --> 00:20:36.438 You need to, you need to develop a solid workflow with a standardized set of 00:20:36.438 --> 00:20:40.768 tools and that might be closer aligned to core than, than a lot of people think. 00:20:40.813 --> 00:20:41.193 Matt: yeah. 00:20:42.623 --> 00:20:44.533 Do you have a set of criteria? 00:20:44.843 --> 00:20:46.753 That is probably way too, way too. 00:20:46.903 --> 00:20:49.513 You probably don't even want to think about this, but I'll ask it anyway. 00:20:49.613 --> 00:20:53.473 Do you have a certain set of criteria on how you might evaluate 00:20:54.703 --> 00:20:57.303 switching to a new page builder? 00:20:57.303 --> 00:21:02.353 Is there something like it must do to be good enough for you to say, okay, this 00:21:02.363 --> 00:21:03.963 is, this is why I would make the leap. 00:21:05.888 --> 00:21:08.688 Brendan: Yeah, I think, I think all the things that drew me to bricks 00:21:08.768 --> 00:21:11.808 are the things that are keeping me with a more advanced page builder. 00:21:12.148 --> 00:21:14.128 you get a section element right out of the box. 00:21:14.158 --> 00:21:15.758 I can use a CSS framework. 00:21:16.153 --> 00:21:18.563 and speed up my workflow tremendously there. 00:21:18.963 --> 00:21:26.273 And I can use dynamic data in a way that is just so straightforward and easy. 00:21:26.273 --> 00:21:27.213 It's just right in the builder. 00:21:27.213 --> 00:21:28.973 I can build nested query loops. 00:21:29.863 --> 00:21:33.453 That is a tremendous power, I think, to have at your fingertips. 00:21:33.933 --> 00:21:37.173 And you can, you can build, you can build a lot of this stuff in core. 00:21:37.213 --> 00:21:39.783 It requires more coding. 00:21:39.793 --> 00:21:40.623 There's no doubt about it. 00:21:42.083 --> 00:21:47.223 Matt: the debate on like using, you know, bricks versus, or I guess, I 00:21:47.223 --> 00:21:52.743 mean, I guess I say bricks is your, your specialty is in bricks, but I guess it 00:21:52.743 --> 00:21:56.433 could go for, you know, whatever, any page builder that you, that you pick. 00:21:56.673 --> 00:21:58.123 Brendan: agnostic though at the end of the day. 00:21:58.123 --> 00:22:02.283 Like, I like a good tool that gets out of my way and lets me build correctly. 00:22:03.303 --> 00:22:04.393 Matt: on the WordPress side. 00:22:05.263 --> 00:22:10.113 I'm of the mindset of saying like, Hey, there's no need to, is there's no need 00:22:10.123 --> 00:22:18.123 for page builders to try to influence core WordPress because I think, I 00:22:18.123 --> 00:22:24.443 think a healthy third party ecosystem is already a victory for WordPress. 00:22:24.748 --> 00:22:28.128 In other words, like if you have, like you have the choice to go and get a 00:22:28.128 --> 00:22:31.238 third party tool, so if you don't like the Gutenberg side of it or the site 00:22:31.238 --> 00:22:34.928 editor side of it, yes, you do have a choice of going to pick any of these page 00:22:34.928 --> 00:22:36.948 builders, you know, to get the job done. 00:22:37.438 --> 00:22:41.808 I don't see the need to, maybe say one is better Better than the other. 00:22:42.088 --> 00:22:44.208 And it happens from like both camps. 00:22:44.228 --> 00:22:46.678 well, Gutenberg says you should be doing, or the core team says 00:22:46.678 --> 00:22:47.768 you should be doing it this way. 00:22:48.048 --> 00:22:51.298 And then Elementor or bricks might be saying, well, no, you, you know, 00:22:51.388 --> 00:22:52.578 WordPress should be doing it this way. 00:22:53.008 --> 00:22:57.028 I think the victory is WordPress continues to, to succeed no 00:22:57.028 --> 00:22:59.198 matter which tool, that you pick. 00:22:59.228 --> 00:23:00.928 Is that, do you feel the same way? 00:23:00.928 --> 00:23:01.518 Like, do you feel like. 00:23:01.963 --> 00:23:06.823 By choosing, by having any tool WordPress still wins or do you have 00:23:06.923 --> 00:23:10.383 you ever think like WordPress might not win because of all the fragmented 00:23:10.663 --> 00:23:12.023 experiences that are out there? 00:23:12.738 --> 00:23:14.758 Brendan: No, that's sort of a great important question. 00:23:14.903 --> 00:23:17.243 I, I think, I think WordPress is gonna do fine. 00:23:17.333 --> 00:23:22.913 I think they've proved themselves to be, to be able to carry this project. 00:23:23.333 --> 00:23:26.183 I have, I have hopes for, for the, the block editor. 00:23:26.188 --> 00:23:30.503 And it will, I assume it can only improve, right? 00:23:30.503 --> 00:23:35.953 It, it's, now I am concerned about the fragmentation even within. 00:23:36.313 --> 00:23:39.953 Certain page builder communities, you know, you got back to how many third party 00:23:40.013 --> 00:23:41.793 plugins exist for some page builders. 00:23:42.153 --> 00:23:43.953 It becomes very overwhelming. 00:23:44.383 --> 00:23:48.203 And then you get someone like Elementor who could easily threaten to leave 00:23:48.213 --> 00:23:53.013 WordPress and take a significant chunk of web traffic, web traffic with them. 00:23:53.653 --> 00:23:56.723 you know, that, those are, those are concerns I'm sure that people at core have 00:23:56.833 --> 00:23:59.883 already, and I'm sure they're thinking about this much longer term than me. 00:23:59.943 --> 00:24:01.963 Matt: It would be interesting to see, especially now that 00:24:01.973 --> 00:24:04.463 Elementor is in, hosting, right. 00:24:04.463 --> 00:24:09.053 And they have, hosting one of the biggest reasons why I, I, I think, 00:24:09.968 --> 00:24:15.338 Tools like Wix and, and Squarespace might still be recommended from 00:24:15.338 --> 00:24:16.758 people who build WordPress sites. 00:24:16.758 --> 00:24:20.748 In other words, oh, my, my neighbor's cousin came over and said, can 00:24:20.748 --> 00:24:22.278 you build me a WordPress website? 00:24:22.278 --> 00:24:24.938 And you're like, no, no, I don't want to do this for, not for you. 00:24:25.258 --> 00:24:27.668 but go check out maybe Wix and Squarespace. 00:24:27.698 --> 00:24:28.558 Cause it's a much easier thing. 00:24:28.558 --> 00:24:30.158 Cause in the back of your head, you're knowing, oh God, this 00:24:30.158 --> 00:24:32.348 person's never going to, they're never going to figure out WordPress. 00:24:32.798 --> 00:24:33.778 but Elementor. 00:24:34.453 --> 00:24:39.963 And I'd even say web hosts like vanilla web hosts have the ability 00:24:39.963 --> 00:24:45.493 to, shape that initially onboarding experience that could make it easier, 00:24:46.103 --> 00:24:47.963 for WordPress for those types of users. 00:24:48.303 --> 00:24:52.383 Like instead of recommending them to go to Squarespace and Wix, maybe we should 00:24:52.503 --> 00:24:58.393 focus on having them having Elementor or Bluehost come up with a, an affordable 00:24:58.393 --> 00:25:01.153 way to onboard, you know, customers 00:25:01.193 --> 00:25:04.623 Brendan: Yeah, and, and this, to my understanding, this 00:25:04.623 --> 00:25:05.873 is basically what wordpress. 00:25:05.893 --> 00:25:06.703 com is doing, 00:25:06.738 --> 00:25:07.028 Matt: Right. 00:25:07.078 --> 00:25:07.588 Wordpress. 00:25:07.588 --> 00:25:07.838 com. 00:25:07.888 --> 00:25:08.168 Yeah. 00:25:08.748 --> 00:25:09.038 Yep. 00:25:09.343 --> 00:25:11.233 Brendan: where they're trying to, they're trying to give you a sort of 00:25:11.313 --> 00:25:16.463 guardrail approach to WordPress, which is kind of an interesting, ironic, 00:25:17.133 --> 00:25:21.353 ironic case where you're putting, putting all these limitations on what I 00:25:21.353 --> 00:25:22.653 wouldn't say that's limitations, right? 00:25:22.653 --> 00:25:27.383 But it's, it's a, it's a concierge experience where you need to, You need 00:25:27.383 --> 00:25:29.623 to give people onboarding into WordPress. 00:25:29.633 --> 00:25:33.023 If you throw them directly into it, look, I attend a lot of, lately I've been 00:25:33.033 --> 00:25:36.243 going to a lot of WordPress meetups to, to hear what people are struggling with. 00:25:36.593 --> 00:25:38.363 There's so many of these WordPress meetups. 00:25:38.493 --> 00:25:40.293 Highly recommend you guys go to those. 00:25:40.293 --> 00:25:43.863 If you're listening to this, there's a lot of really cool stuff and you learn about 00:25:43.863 --> 00:25:45.153 what, what people are struggling with. 00:25:45.733 --> 00:25:47.083 And it's, it's so tough. 00:25:47.123 --> 00:25:48.943 Like everyone's using a different page builder. 00:25:48.943 --> 00:25:50.413 Everyone has a different plugin stack. 00:25:51.803 --> 00:25:55.123 It can get complicated, and the people that are doing those meetups 00:25:55.123 --> 00:25:58.813 are doing it for free, and they're all experts just helping people 00:25:58.993 --> 00:26:00.773 basically onboard into WordPress. 00:26:01.293 --> 00:26:04.803 So, it makes sense that the hosting companies want to do that. 00:26:04.803 --> 00:26:10.540 We need, we need more of that, or we're going to lose more market share to Wix and 00:26:10.548 --> 00:26:11.978 Matt: having this conversation earlier today. 00:26:11.978 --> 00:26:17.088 It's, it's a, it's a complicated, situation being so like Bluehost, who's 00:26:17.088 --> 00:26:18.968 one of our sponsors here at the WP minute. 00:26:19.418 --> 00:26:23.778 I think a lot of professionals, I've had these conversations with them before. 00:26:24.088 --> 00:26:27.248 I think you'd have a lot of professionals say, Oh, 5 a month hosting. 00:26:27.518 --> 00:26:27.718 Yeah. 00:26:27.788 --> 00:26:28.698 I've never used that. 00:26:28.708 --> 00:26:31.818 Like I would never recommend that kind of, of plan. 00:26:32.248 --> 00:26:32.928 That's fine. 00:26:33.298 --> 00:26:37.438 But it's there for a reason because the customer who wants to pay for 00:26:37.438 --> 00:26:41.308 that is also the customer who would say, I'm not going to spend more 00:26:41.308 --> 00:26:43.678 than 100 a year for my website. 00:26:44.008 --> 00:26:48.618 And then the only alternative is you will lose them from the WordPress ecosystem. 00:26:48.618 --> 00:26:51.798 They will go to a Wix or a Squarespace. 00:26:51.818 --> 00:26:56.668 I don't, don't go to as 5 a month, shared hosting account, go to this like Wix, why, 00:26:56.738 --> 00:26:59.138 why keep them in the WordPress ecosystem? 00:26:59.508 --> 00:27:02.378 it's, it's a tough situation to like prop up. 00:27:02.858 --> 00:27:05.788 I can understand like shared hosting, but also at the same time that would 00:27:05.788 --> 00:27:07.238 keep people in the WordPress space. 00:27:07.648 --> 00:27:07.918 Sure. 00:27:07.918 --> 00:27:08.948 Their tools have to be good. 00:27:09.018 --> 00:27:10.348 Like their onboarding has to be good. 00:27:10.468 --> 00:27:11.988 I think Bluehost does a good job with it. 00:27:12.908 --> 00:27:15.718 Brendan: is interesting because like the more you learn about it, the 00:27:15.718 --> 00:27:20.048 deeper you get in, the more complex, the more convoluted it becomes. 00:27:20.148 --> 00:27:22.838 and it's the people that have been doing it for years and years. 00:27:22.838 --> 00:27:28.458 It's their, it's sort of their duty to, to shepherd people long, I think. 00:27:28.478 --> 00:27:29.228 And that's sort of. 00:27:29.283 --> 00:27:34.093 You know, sort of the idea behind my YouTube channel, where it's, I basically 00:27:34.093 --> 00:27:36.683 started it because I couldn't find videos on how to do certain things. 00:27:36.693 --> 00:27:39.943 So I just did it and recorded it, threw it up there because I've learned 00:27:39.943 --> 00:27:41.393 so much stuff from other people. 00:27:41.743 --> 00:27:44.323 And that's the only way we can grow this community. 00:27:44.523 --> 00:27:45.993 Matt: yeah, it's a perfect segue. 00:27:45.993 --> 00:27:48.393 Cause I was just about to ask you about the YouTube channel. 00:27:48.753 --> 00:27:51.333 what are the goals, content, content creator of the year? 00:27:51.333 --> 00:27:52.013 What are we going for? 00:27:52.013 --> 00:27:54.203 What, what's the goals for the, for the YouTube channel? 00:27:54.203 --> 00:27:55.403 What are your expectations? 00:27:56.143 --> 00:27:58.803 Brendan: yeah, well, if anyone's watched my content, I'm sorry, 00:27:59.013 --> 00:28:00.853 it's not the best produced content. 00:28:00.853 --> 00:28:05.083 It's, I don't spend a lot of time editing it and perfecting it. 00:28:05.448 --> 00:28:06.598 It's me raw. 00:28:07.298 --> 00:28:09.188 so, you know, people have resonated with that a bit, you 00:28:09.188 --> 00:28:12.358 know, I don't, I'm not trying to monetize it or anything like that. 00:28:12.358 --> 00:28:14.348 It's all pretty straightforward. 00:28:14.358 --> 00:28:19.048 Just tutorials, you know, maybe do some commentary on WordPress stuff. 00:28:19.078 --> 00:28:23.308 This is part of why I'm, I'm appearing on this podcast with you, Matt. 00:28:23.308 --> 00:28:26.838 So thank you for having me is to, to, to learn more about this, learn more 00:28:26.838 --> 00:28:30.598 what people are doing, what their pain points are, how we can all get better. 00:28:31.448 --> 00:28:35.248 Matt: The, I know again, Mark Szymanski really pushing hard into, into 00:28:35.248 --> 00:28:36.798 YouTube, doing a lot of live stream. 00:28:36.798 --> 00:28:38.248 He'll, he'll live stream anything. 00:28:38.268 --> 00:28:41.818 Mark will, and I know he's got the new, bridge builder series 00:28:41.918 --> 00:28:43.858 that he's working on, as well. 00:28:44.128 --> 00:28:48.338 Do you have any future plans to do like community or. 00:28:49.253 --> 00:28:53.123 Like standalone podcasts any thoughts on on that as a content creator 00:28:54.863 --> 00:28:56.623 Brendan: It's, it's something I've thought about. 00:28:56.663 --> 00:28:58.203 I'm open to ideas. 00:28:58.483 --> 00:29:00.423 I try to do too many things already. 00:29:00.493 --> 00:29:02.833 So, I need someone to sort of guide me. 00:29:02.833 --> 00:29:03.433 So that's why I'm 00:29:03.523 --> 00:29:03.783 Matt: Yeah 00:29:03.933 --> 00:29:05.193 Brendan: I need, all the advice I can 00:29:05.423 --> 00:29:07.713 Matt: Well, let's see you work for an agency then you have your own 00:29:07.723 --> 00:29:11.223 practice and you're a content creator, I mean i've you're pretty filled up 00:29:11.223 --> 00:29:12.883 Brendan: It's, it's, it's a busy life. 00:29:12.903 --> 00:29:13.933 I, I enjoy it. 00:29:14.033 --> 00:29:17.703 And I, you know, I, I'm trying also not to do too many things at 00:29:17.703 --> 00:29:20.323 once because I struggle with that. 00:29:20.323 --> 00:29:23.073 I try to, you know, You know, just build a bunch of different 00:29:23.073 --> 00:29:24.723 things at once and they all suffer. 00:29:24.813 --> 00:29:27.983 So that's my, that's been my new year's resolution this year. 00:29:27.983 --> 00:29:30.553 And I've been consistent on the YouTube channel. 00:29:30.553 --> 00:29:32.353 I've seen like pretty good growth on it. 00:29:32.613 --> 00:29:36.103 And I've gotten some actual projects out of it from viewers. 00:29:36.503 --> 00:29:39.793 So, you know, it's, I would say it's sort of paid for itself already because I've 00:29:39.793 --> 00:29:42.043 made some thousands of dollars off of it. 00:29:42.043 --> 00:29:45.373 So thank you to my amazing viewers who saw something in me 00:29:45.523 --> 00:29:49.213 Matt: Yeah, that's what i've always said about podcasting as somebody who 00:29:49.213 --> 00:29:53.333 spent um, i've been piehousing for over a decade But then I worked as a 00:29:53.333 --> 00:29:59.473 career in the podcast space for almost three years and When customer or I 00:29:59.473 --> 00:30:00.533 worked at a podcast hosting company. 00:30:00.533 --> 00:30:02.643 So when customers would ask me like, Hey, you know, I want to start a 00:30:02.643 --> 00:30:07.073 podcast, want to monetize it, want to be whatever favorite podcast or want 00:30:07.073 --> 00:30:10.673 to be the Joe Rogan of podcasting and say, okay, well, you also have 00:30:10.673 --> 00:30:13.473 to remember he was on television for like 30 years and he was a comedian. 00:30:13.473 --> 00:30:17.543 So then that sort of helped sort of, you know, boost his, his, where 00:30:17.543 --> 00:30:18.983 we're at on podcasting pretty quick. 00:30:19.003 --> 00:30:22.433 But the idea is podcasting or just getting this content out there. 00:30:22.723 --> 00:30:25.933 Doesn't always have to be like, I need to get X amount of views to get 00:30:25.973 --> 00:30:30.093 X amount of sponsorship because you're creating this like surface luck area. 00:30:30.353 --> 00:30:32.913 So like you, it's like, Hey, my mind, I'm not monetizing it. 00:30:32.913 --> 00:30:37.913 I don't have a paid community right now, but I got customers from it, which is like 00:30:37.913 --> 00:30:39.703 the stuff you can't, you can't measure it. 00:30:40.003 --> 00:30:42.743 It's not like something you can be like, Oh, what's the ROI on this stuff. 00:30:43.223 --> 00:30:44.103 It could be nothing. 00:30:44.113 --> 00:30:45.713 It could be a hundred thousand dollars. 00:30:46.503 --> 00:30:47.463 Brendan: I appreciate that. 00:30:47.463 --> 00:30:51.663 I, I, and I, and I suggest everyone do that too, because I think, I think 00:30:51.663 --> 00:30:53.023 everyone's got something to share. 00:30:53.083 --> 00:30:54.623 You should put yourself out there more. 00:30:54.933 --> 00:30:58.743 it's very easy to just sit behind our screens and, and just 00:30:58.753 --> 00:31:00.223 type, but just get out there. 00:31:01.313 --> 00:31:03.573 Matt: for the next six months throughout the year? 00:31:03.573 --> 00:31:05.553 Do you have your, an outlook for WordPress? 00:31:05.563 --> 00:31:06.593 What are you excited for? 00:31:06.593 --> 00:31:09.243 What are you excited to see happen throughout the summer, throughout 00:31:09.243 --> 00:31:12.593 the rest of the year in WordPress, be it WordPress or bricks or 00:31:12.623 --> 00:31:13.983 anything in the, in the tech space? 00:31:15.623 --> 00:31:19.903 Brendan: Yeah, I think the, the, there's a change within websites, I think a 00:31:19.903 --> 00:31:21.573 little bit within particularly WordPress. 00:31:21.593 --> 00:31:25.603 We're seeing more what I call components or partially sync patterns. 00:31:25.913 --> 00:31:26.923 Those are coming to core. 00:31:26.943 --> 00:31:29.223 Those are really going to be game changers for people. 00:31:29.223 --> 00:31:33.843 I think people don't want to, Put a lot of thought into some parts of 00:31:33.843 --> 00:31:37.323 just like, I want to just get my, my layouts out, but I don't want 00:31:37.323 --> 00:31:39.223 to have to spend an arm and a leg. 00:31:39.223 --> 00:31:40.953 So, I think that's really cool. 00:31:41.173 --> 00:31:43.303 Componentizing parts of web design. 00:31:43.303 --> 00:31:46.373 We already see that in the SAS world, of course, but doing that 00:31:46.373 --> 00:31:47.823 within WordPress is really cool. 00:31:48.243 --> 00:31:49.013 I'm excited about that. 00:31:49.013 --> 00:31:51.013 I'm excited about custom blocks in general. 00:31:51.013 --> 00:31:52.823 I've been, as I said, diving into Gutenberg. 00:31:53.303 --> 00:31:53.503 I've. 00:31:53.913 --> 00:31:57.553 Purchase Pine grow, which is a great little plugin for making custom blocks 00:31:57.873 --> 00:32:00.943 and just teaching myself about the core more of it because I've been 00:32:00.943 --> 00:32:04.283 building on top of WordPress for so long and, you know, figure it's 00:32:04.283 --> 00:32:05.743 time to, to learn more about that. 00:32:05.753 --> 00:32:06.023 So 00:32:06.873 --> 00:32:10.568 Matt: yeah, as I was, You know, thinking about the, partially sync. 00:32:11.118 --> 00:32:13.428 Partially sync pattern is a sync pattern, partially sync patterns. 00:32:13.438 --> 00:32:13.678 That's 00:32:13.913 --> 00:32:14.683 Brendan: I forget if they 00:32:14.888 --> 00:32:16.428 Matt: yeah, I forget the name of it the other day. 00:32:16.458 --> 00:32:16.678 Yeah. 00:32:16.678 --> 00:32:19.208 And I had a video because it was supposed to come in six, five, 00:32:19.208 --> 00:32:22.188 and I think it's still slated for six, six, as far as I know. 00:32:22.768 --> 00:32:25.918 and then I, I had, I looked at Webflow and I know they have their 00:32:25.938 --> 00:32:28.228 component system and stuff like that. 00:32:28.878 --> 00:32:33.243 And the whole AI thing, people say, oh, you know, We're going to lose our, 00:32:33.333 --> 00:32:37.303 well, maybe this is a good question to, to end it off in that, do you 00:32:37.313 --> 00:32:42.083 have any particular thoughts on AI, in the field of design development? 00:32:42.133 --> 00:32:45.303 Because I know Mark, again, I keep calling back to Mark. 00:32:45.303 --> 00:32:50.293 He's talked to me off air before about, AI potentially taken, taking all of our jobs. 00:32:50.633 --> 00:32:53.133 And AI site builder. 00:32:53.838 --> 00:32:56.998 I'm severely underwhelmed with what it produces. 00:32:57.108 --> 00:33:00.058 And I know everything's going to get better in six months from 00:33:00.058 --> 00:33:01.768 a year and two years, 10 years. 00:33:02.208 --> 00:33:03.898 but right now it's severely underwhelming. 00:33:04.228 --> 00:33:07.198 And I was having this conversation earlier today too. 00:33:08.708 --> 00:33:13.888 I emailed three businesses last week for quotes on something for my house. 00:33:15.173 --> 00:33:15.993 Nobody got back to me. 00:33:17.383 --> 00:33:18.303 No one got back to me. 00:33:19.063 --> 00:33:20.873 They have the email clear right on the website. 00:33:20.873 --> 00:33:22.703 They tell you email with questions. 00:33:23.123 --> 00:33:23.693 Nobody got back. 00:33:23.913 --> 00:33:30.573 I'm not worried about customers using AI to do anything that yet anyway, they 00:33:30.573 --> 00:33:33.503 can't even respond to email, right? 00:33:33.553 --> 00:33:37.343 I'm not worried about them building their own website with AI because 00:33:37.423 --> 00:33:39.213 I can't build a website with AI. 00:33:39.333 --> 00:33:41.533 They certainly can't build a website with AI. 00:33:41.823 --> 00:33:43.663 They can't even respond to my emails. 00:33:44.053 --> 00:33:46.248 so there's, There's still humans needed. 00:33:46.518 --> 00:33:49.158 I think your thoughts on on AI. 00:33:50.343 --> 00:33:53.683 Brendan: Yeah, that's, that's a whole conversation for sure, but, but I 00:33:53.703 --> 00:33:57.133 think, I think that you're right in that it's, we're going to require a 00:33:57.133 --> 00:33:58.743 human touch for a lot of this stuff. 00:33:58.783 --> 00:34:03.253 And you know, AI is going to come for the lowest hanging fruit as 00:34:03.423 --> 00:34:05.358 automation always does for any job. 00:34:06.408 --> 00:34:10.208 But, you know, you need to, you need a human to interact with it and you need a 00:34:10.208 --> 00:34:11.788 human to interact with the client itself. 00:34:11.868 --> 00:34:15.978 So we're, you know, I don't want to say that we're all middlemen, but kind of, we 00:34:15.978 --> 00:34:20.848 are, we interpret tech and we interpret client demands and come up with something 00:34:20.848 --> 00:34:24.358 in between and AI can't do that yet. 00:34:24.548 --> 00:34:27.278 And it's going to, as I said, it's going to come for some 00:34:27.278 --> 00:34:28.328 low hanging fruit for sure. 00:34:28.328 --> 00:34:30.168 So get better at your craft. 00:34:30.268 --> 00:34:33.888 And also part of the reason I, I've changed to, you know, put, just 00:34:33.888 --> 00:34:37.568 putting my name, my own name in my website, my name and my YouTube 00:34:37.568 --> 00:34:39.528 channel have my face out there. 00:34:39.528 --> 00:34:42.128 Now, I guess I got to start recording myself for my videos on 00:34:42.128 --> 00:34:44.078 camera now, but I'm a human, right? 00:34:44.078 --> 00:34:47.508 And people, people connect with that stuff more than, more 00:34:47.508 --> 00:34:49.028 than robots, at least for now, 00:34:49.143 --> 00:34:51.533 Matt: yeah If you don't put your face people would just think it's just 00:34:51.553 --> 00:34:53.403 AI generated on your YouTube channel 00:34:54.088 --> 00:34:54.738 Brendan: exactly. 00:34:55.228 --> 00:34:57.058 Hey, maybe, maybe there's a career there. 00:34:57.838 --> 00:34:59.018 Maybe I can retire. 00:35:00.248 --> 00:35:00.588 No. 00:35:01.023 --> 00:35:03.513 Matt: Don't retire yet that the humans need more humans. 00:35:03.563 --> 00:35:05.033 Don't don't leave us just yet. 00:35:05.118 --> 00:35:08.128 Brendan: Yeah, we have to train the robots a little bit more before we retire. 00:35:08.683 --> 00:35:13.518 Matt: It's Brendan O'Connell It's Brendan hyphen O'Connell comm at 00:35:13.528 --> 00:35:16.498 Brendan O'Connell WP on YouTube. 00:35:16.878 --> 00:35:19.308 Check them out, anywhere else folks can go to say thanks. 00:35:21.208 --> 00:35:23.198 Brendan: Those are the best ways you can follow me on Twitter. 00:35:23.198 --> 00:35:24.448 I think it's the same handle. 00:35:25.318 --> 00:35:25.888 Matt: Awesome stuff. 00:35:25.898 --> 00:35:26.978 Brendan, thanks for hanging out today. 00:35:28.138 --> 00:35:28.658 Brendan: Thanks for having me. 00:35:28.658 --> 00:35:29.528 Appreciate your time. 00:35:30.008 --> 00:35:30.398 Thanks.