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Hello again everybody and welcome back to
the accelerator with Michael Conniff.

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That's me.

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I'm here with Kurt Long.

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His latest venture is Bunker.

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Um, but he has a long, long career,
decades of, uh, successful startups.

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And I think maybe he can help us figure
out how you can improve your chances for

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that.

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Remember where I first I should say
welcome Kurt.

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Great to have you.

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Thanks for having me on Michael, it's
great to be on the accelerator.

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coming to us from St.

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Pete in Florida, St.

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Petersburg.

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So I also wanna let everyone know that we
are a sub stack subscription service.

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You can get us sent directly to your email
box.

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About 8,000 plus people do that.

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You can also find us on YouTube and
Spotify with audio and video, and then on

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all the major audio platforms, including
Audible, Amazon, Apple, and so on and so

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forth.

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So great to have you.

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We've done over a hundred of these and
Kurt is a multiple successful

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entrepreneur.

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Let me start first though, by asking you
about Bunker.

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And I understand this is a venture you're
doing with your sons, but tell us a little

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about it.

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And I should spell it B-U-N-K-R.

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So tell us about Bunker.

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Yeah.

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And it's at B-U-N-K-R dot life.

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And the idea, the vision is to build the
most trusted network of people in the

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world, people that are legitimate,
law-abiding people, and through our

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design, patent pending technology, as well
as our business processes, we have

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customers in 35 countries using the
platform from entrepreneurs, physicians,

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doctors, mothers, fathers, everything you
can think of.

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And, you know, it's a relief from too many
platforms that you use for messaging that

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interconnect, that have fraudsters and
imposters and all kinds of crime and cyber

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crime associated with them.

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So the idea is that Bunker is the most
trusted platform in the world for the

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public.

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And then we include things like Password
Manager and Secure.

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secure cloud so that people have that no
matter where they go, whether on the

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bunker network or not, they have all their
most personal information with them.

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So because I love the metaphor, so these
are the people you wanna be in the bunker

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with, it sounds like, right?

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that's it.

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Yeah, I mean, so that's right.

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So, describe those people to me.

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And also I think this, what's interesting
about this is the selection process and

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who gets in and who doesn't.

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So, explain that if you could, Kurt.

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Sure.

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We have most, it's really about people
that care about each other.

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That's the common denominator.

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When we do focus groups, when we talk to
people directly, we look at social media

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posts, it's always about I invited these
people to join Bunker because I care about

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them.

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So when you think about that, a lot of
times that's your family, it's your

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extended family.

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with coaches and agents.

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We have coaches and agents on the
platform.

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It's the people that they're coaching,
they're players, if you will.

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It's people, it's the people that take
care of you in your household.

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It's just the normal people that you care
about in your life, your closest friends,

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the people you trust the most.

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What we've seen, if we can get people
using Bunker and-

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using mostly the messaging, but also file
storage and password management.

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It's been an interesting dynamic to listen
to them talk.

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We have, for example, I had introduced
neighbors to it.

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They live in Switzerland.

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And when they went back to Zurich, we
instantly had 22 customers in Switzerland.

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And we're like, Daniel, Renata, what
happened?

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Well, we invited all these other people to
join us because we love the product so

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much.

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And we want them to be protected as well.

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So that's a...

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a really typical story that we get.

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So is it, would you describe it as a, is
it a social media platform?

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No, it's really a messaging platform.

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And if it is social media, like we'll
create groups.

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I just, some people have hesitated in my
extended family and I'm in my really

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extended family.

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When you get out there a couple of levels
and they have come around to it.

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And we do exchange pictures, we exchange
documents and things on it.

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So you absolutely can do that, but it's
really meant to be kind of a private

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space.

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where you can share the most important
information of your life.

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And sometimes if that's pictures or
videos, then absolutely, you share those

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with the people that you love.

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But it's not, I guess the distinction I'm
making, Michael, is it's not for all to

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see.

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It's only the people that you've invited
or they've invited you and you accept

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their invitation that you have connected.

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And that means you've known them before
they're in your contacts or you met them

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and gave them your phone number.

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So with Bunker, as opposed to Facebook or
any other social media platform where

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you're basically trying to build a
following, you're trying to make

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connections.

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Bunker is, if it's limited to the people
you care about, that's not going to be,

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you know, maybe it'll be 10,000 people.

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It'll be more likely to be 10 people than
10,000.

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So how, so what's the business model for
that?

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How do you make money?

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Um, we pay for license for it and there's
a couple of different versions just to

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encourage, uh, just to encourage adoption.

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Right now we have a version that's 99
cents and then people typically upgrade to

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a dollar a month.

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So it's about $12 a year.

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And we have, uh, people get started on
that 99 cent version and it's, uh, mostly

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storage, but there's other components of
the, of the more expensive version that

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has them upgrade and it's worked out
great.

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And how many, can you tell us about your
user base at this point and how long

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you're going?

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a few thousand users and we launched it on
the App Store in October.

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And, you know, for whatever reason it's,
it's taken off in all these countries

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around the world, literally Africa, the
middle East, all over Asia.

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I know Japan's part of that, but we have a
big block of users in Japan and Turkey.

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Australia, North America, South America,
for whatever reasons, it's blossomed

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globally.

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And it's been a lot of fun.

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And so, so you can, is there any way that
you can talk to people you don't know?

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It's really meant for people that know one
another, that you connect through your

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contacts and you invite those contacts.

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Now they can make introductions for you,
but it's really meant to be secure and

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private.

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And that's why I call it the most trusted
platform in the world.

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And we want to make it the biggest, most
trusted platform in the world.

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We're on our way to doing that, but it's
the most trusted platform in the world for

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people that care about each other and are
legitimate law-abiding people.

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Law abiding seems to come up.

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Do you actually do police checks?

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So with most of these secret messengers,
and when I say most, all the secret

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messengers that you could think of like
Snapchat has disappearing messages, Signal

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has disappearing messages, WhatsApp, they
really don't cooperate with law

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enforcement and that also means that it
attracts an incredible amount of criminal

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elements.

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So on these messaging platforms, the
criminal element is

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everywhere.

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It's pervasive.

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In fact, I would assert that in many of
these platforms, they've taken over.

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Famously Telegram, for example, they have
Russian Killnet running.

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I hate to bring that vibe to it, but
Russian Killnet runs a big group, 100,000

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people that brag about their terror.

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So you're kind of commingling with those
people.

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And those people on most of these
platforms can come right to you or your

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loved ones.

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So when you hear a horror story,
literally, a friend of ours, their child,

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eight years old, downloaded one of these
secret messengers, started interacting

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with someone in the Department of Homeland
Security came to the house and said, do

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you realize your child is interacting with
a pedophile and has arranged to meet him?

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And that's a really typical story out
there.

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And so bunker is the opposite of that.

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And we're so by policy while we've never
had to do it yet We will cooperate with

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law enforcement if there is a subpoena Or
or a warrant if you will and by the time

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that you provide a phone number You
provide a payment method even if it's 99

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cents and you realize that this is for
legitimate people law-abiding people The

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bad people do not want to be part of our
network and they stay on the snapchats and

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the signal

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the WhatsApps, the Telegram and these
other networks that really criminals are

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flourishing on.

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You know, I used to teach social media at
the Isaacson School in Colorado.

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And, um, I remember having students come
in and say, well, you know, I have.

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12 people, you know, that, that I'm
connected to on Facebook.

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And I was like, you know, why so few?

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It's like, oh, those are the people I
know.

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My response would be, well, you're going
to have a really small Facebook group,

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but, but if you start out.

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with that as the goal, then it seems to me
that you can set this up to be sort of a

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meaningful communications platform.

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Having said that, and I know you're a
smart entrepreneur and you've been

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successful in a lot of businesses, which
we'll talk about, how do you scale this?

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How do you grow this?

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Does it just stay as effectively an email
platform?

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What happens to it moving forward?

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it's got, you know, it has the password
manager, secure cloud storage notes.

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And then on the, you know, on the B2B
side, um, we're great fit for financial

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services firms and for healthcare, because
in those markets, those are regulated

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industries.

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So what I described is kind of legal due
process and those industries that's

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required.

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So the sec, the securities exchange
commission has come in and find.

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wealth managers, banks, financial services
company that are using the secret

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messengers.

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Why?

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Well, because it's perfect for insider
trading and they can't police that.

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And so they've literally fined them about
$2.5 billion and Bunker is compliant with

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record keeping.

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So when you start looking at the business
model, we've got this great customer base

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that's growing on the public side.

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And now we can connect that with wealth
advisors and healthcare companies in

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healthcare.

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It's HIPAA.

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So in the UK, it's things like the
Financial Conduct Authority.

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These markets that have your most
sensitive information, they require what I

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described.

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Otherwise you'll be fined.

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So we see it as a really great market for
this idea of a trusted network.

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Well, when you're handling healthcare
information or your finances, for sure you

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want trust.

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We see it as unlimited because everybody's
going to have health, everybody's going to

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have healthcare and everybody's going to
have finances.

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You know, it actually reminds me of the
way email got started, which I once did a,

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this is really going to date me, but in
1989, I did a big study about email use

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and adoption for Pacific Bell, a company
that is Pacific Bell, still there.

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I think maybe it is, but yeah, it's one of
the, one of the baby, the infamous baby

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bells.

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But.

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And people were expecting that the usage
would be copy, serve and source and online

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services that were kind of generally open
to everybody.

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It turned out that email usage was almost
entirely, was dominated actually by IBM

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profs system, P R O F S.

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Yeah.

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And the vast majority, which in apropos
your company bunker, which meant those

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networks were closed.

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Right?

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Not everybody could join them.

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They all ran on IBM, which meant you had
to have an IBM and so on and so forth.

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So it's a little bit of a back to the
future, but I wanted to ask you, Kurt,

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specifically, you've done a number of
companies and I think this bunker is a

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great example of sort of talking to a very
experienced entrepreneur about how you

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start something that at least, you know,
has, has the potential for success.

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And so my question to you would be what.

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What did you see about this opportunity
that intrigued you?

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That was interesting.

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And also maybe tell us about the role of
your sons in this process.

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Yep.

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So it was, uh, we had sold fair warning,
um, it sold completely at the end of 2019.

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So we were, uh, fair, fair warning
protected electronic health records.

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And I invented patented software that
secured patient information and electronic

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health records, um, way ahead of everyone
else.

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In other words.

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00:14:01,186 --> 00:14:08,287
kind of foresaw that cybercrime and
criminals would hit healthcare way before

232
00:14:08,287 --> 00:14:10,648
others thought that would happen.

233
00:14:10,808 --> 00:14:16,530
So we wound up with about 60% of the US
market in terms of patient coverage,

234
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:18,690
hospitals, clinics.

235
00:14:19,371 --> 00:14:23,912
It was a great business, very profitable,
grew fast.

236
00:14:24,372 --> 00:14:30,333
And after 15 years, our entire family was
involved in it for the last 10.

237
00:14:30,998 --> 00:14:31,998
running it.

238
00:14:31,998 --> 00:14:33,420
And we sold that.

239
00:14:33,420 --> 00:14:39,085
And it went through a transaction to main
sale partners out of San Francisco.

240
00:14:39,125 --> 00:14:46,852
We sold most of it and then in totality to
Improvada and who's the PE there's Toma

241
00:14:46,852 --> 00:14:51,836
Bravo, one of the biggest PE companies in
the software space in the world.

242
00:14:52,117 --> 00:14:55,520
And so that was what else could I share
with you about that, Michael, that might

243
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,144
be of interest to your audience?

244
00:14:57,144 --> 00:15:01,367
I'm just wondering, so you saw, you sort
of identified a need.

245
00:15:01,367 --> 00:15:01,987
It's interesting.

246
00:15:01,987 --> 00:15:06,390
I think these are two different things
because you identified a need, something

247
00:15:06,390 --> 00:15:10,412
you saw coming, you even patented software
to address it.

248
00:15:10,773 --> 00:15:14,335
In this case, email is not a new idea.

249
00:15:14,335 --> 00:15:16,096
It's actually sort of the opposite.

250
00:15:16,096 --> 00:15:19,017
It's been around for really, at least
since the eighties.

251
00:15:19,538 --> 00:15:22,128
If not going back to ARPANET, right.

252
00:15:22,128 --> 00:15:29,130
So it's been around, it's been exploited
to death, everything from Yahoo mail to

253
00:15:29,370 --> 00:15:32,871
WhatsApp and what Facebook and direct
messaging does.

254
00:15:33,212 --> 00:15:40,134
But you sort of saw an opportunity because
of what, I'm putting words in your mouth,

255
00:15:40,134 --> 00:15:42,755
because of what email wasn't doing
anymore.

256
00:15:43,395 --> 00:15:44,202
Is that fair?

257
00:15:44,202 --> 00:15:46,003
yeah, it's not just email.

258
00:15:46,003 --> 00:15:49,224
Email's inherently insecure.

259
00:15:49,224 --> 00:15:53,546
So like, it's not, you can't use it in
regulated industries.

260
00:15:53,546 --> 00:15:57,888
Like that's not, you cannot send
healthcare information with email, you

261
00:15:57,888 --> 00:16:02,049
really can't send financial information
with email.

262
00:16:02,110 --> 00:16:04,191
So email's inherently insecure.

263
00:16:04,191 --> 00:16:10,913
So you kind of have, I'd call it just
these ways to communicate and...

264
00:16:11,830 --> 00:16:15,950
So I'm going to take email off the table a
little bit and just say like texting.

265
00:16:17,171 --> 00:16:21,972
Texting, you're leaving yourself, you're
still an open network.

266
00:16:21,972 --> 00:16:27,454
So every time that there is a breach on
the dark web, whenever you, let's say you

267
00:16:27,454 --> 00:16:30,995
see there's a giant breach and like, what
does that mean to me?

268
00:16:30,995 --> 00:16:35,256
And let's say it's a big giant
hospitality, I won't name any companies,

269
00:16:35,256 --> 00:16:37,556
but just about all of them have been
breached.

270
00:16:37,556 --> 00:16:39,237
What does that mean to me?

271
00:16:39,477 --> 00:16:41,678
Well, your data's in there.

272
00:16:41,678 --> 00:16:49,180
and they take your name, your email
address, often your cell phone number.

273
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,161
And then if they have a password, uh,
associated with the hospital, they'll say

274
00:16:53,161 --> 00:16:56,382
it's a hotel chain that goes to the dark
web.

275
00:16:56,522 --> 00:17:00,063
And then they just attack you from the
dark web.

276
00:17:00,283 --> 00:17:02,223
That's where you get these texts that come
in.

277
00:17:02,223 --> 00:17:05,084
You're like, Oh, Hey, how did they get my
text?

278
00:17:05,084 --> 00:17:06,385
How'd they get my number?

279
00:17:06,385 --> 00:17:10,125
Well, it's been, it's been put on the dark
web and sold.

280
00:17:10,362 --> 00:17:14,464
And you don't have to have an invitation
process or anything to receive

281
00:17:14,464 --> 00:17:16,545
communication on text.

282
00:17:16,625 --> 00:17:20,947
So you're just going to get all these
different, anything from your Amazon

283
00:17:20,947 --> 00:17:25,050
package has shipped, all we need you to do
is enter your credit card number, or you

284
00:17:25,050 --> 00:17:28,772
might say, well, why am I getting all
these political messages?

285
00:17:28,772 --> 00:17:32,493
Chances are they've even been sold or even
come through the dark web.

286
00:17:32,534 --> 00:17:37,756
So like the texting thing, that's just
opening yourself up to like all these

287
00:17:37,756 --> 00:17:40,222
different imposter and phishing attacks.

288
00:17:40,222 --> 00:17:44,123
And then it's also, you can't use that in
regulated industries as well.

289
00:17:44,243 --> 00:17:49,325
And so there was no, I started using all
those platforms after fair warning.

290
00:17:49,626 --> 00:17:52,707
And, uh, you have this realization like,
Oh wow.

291
00:17:52,707 --> 00:18:00,290
So all of the messaging platforms that we
use are either subject to like data

292
00:18:00,290 --> 00:18:04,812
collection and people would just collect
our data, uh, or they're inherently

293
00:18:04,812 --> 00:18:08,726
insecure with imposters, um, or, um.

294
00:18:08,726 --> 00:18:12,228
They're literally in use by criminals.

295
00:18:12,228 --> 00:18:15,971
And I wanted something that I could 100%
trust.

296
00:18:15,971 --> 00:18:20,194
And we just built it out and knew that
it's trust and no one's going to message

297
00:18:20,194 --> 00:18:24,077
me unless I knew them and accepted the
invitation.

298
00:18:24,077 --> 00:18:27,580
And it's a 100% trusted network.

299
00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:28,661
And it's worked.

300
00:18:28,661 --> 00:18:29,781
People love it.

301
00:18:30,622 --> 00:18:32,777
And how many companies have you founded?

302
00:18:32,777 --> 00:18:34,203
What number is Bunker?

303
00:18:34,914 --> 00:18:35,639
Four.

304
00:18:36,684 --> 00:18:44,968
And so before you started the first one,
were you driven to be an entrepreneur?

305
00:18:44,968 --> 00:18:46,789
Did you have a day job?

306
00:18:47,249 --> 00:18:51,772
I'm sort of trying to get at, you know,
sort of what are the qualities of a

307
00:18:51,772 --> 00:18:55,594
successful entrepreneur, because you've
done it successfully now for a long time.

308
00:18:55,594 --> 00:18:57,935
And I noticed you use two tea bags in your
tea.

309
00:18:57,935 --> 00:19:01,097
So I would recommend that everybody do
that.

310
00:19:01,097 --> 00:19:06,419
But other than that, what is it that
compelled you?

311
00:19:06,784 --> 00:19:11,820
to take, you know, presumably to take a
gamble on yourself and become an

312
00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:12,583
entrepreneur.

313
00:19:12,583 --> 00:19:14,427
And why do you think you were successful?

314
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:24,234
Um, one thing is I like to solve problems,
you know, so problem solvers up there.

315
00:19:24,354 --> 00:19:31,219
A second thing is, is that I like to solve
problems for people so that if you can, if

316
00:19:31,219 --> 00:19:37,044
you can see a problem that people are
having, then it's like, I could solve that

317
00:19:37,044 --> 00:19:39,025
for one person, I could solve it for many.

318
00:19:39,025 --> 00:19:43,288
If I can, or if it's B2B solve it for one
business, I can solve it for many.

319
00:19:43,288 --> 00:19:45,574
Um, and then.

320
00:19:45,574 --> 00:19:48,755
I have, I would call it obsessive.

321
00:19:48,755 --> 00:19:52,877
Like I don't actually, I'm not in love
with the word passion.

322
00:19:52,937 --> 00:19:54,197
I think it gets overused.

323
00:19:54,197 --> 00:19:56,098
So people say I'm passionate.

324
00:19:56,719 --> 00:20:00,960
And I think what entrepreneurs have is
something beyond that.

325
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,501
It's obsession.

326
00:20:02,501 --> 00:20:06,583
Passion almost sounds like it's, you know,
obsession is almost unhealthy.

327
00:20:06,583 --> 00:20:12,505
You have to realize like, okay, I probably
should stop right now.

328
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:15,911
Or I probably should try to think about
something else right now.

329
00:20:15,911 --> 00:20:17,652
It's not productive.

330
00:20:17,652 --> 00:20:24,916
Um, and I always, I think I, because I'm,
I really mean what I say.

331
00:20:24,916 --> 00:20:26,477
Like if I said, I mean it.

332
00:20:26,537 --> 00:20:30,339
And I think because of that, I attract
people that want to be a part of something

333
00:20:30,339 --> 00:20:37,183
that we're doing and, uh, I might not be
always the perfect manager, but they know

334
00:20:37,223 --> 00:20:38,644
what I say is what I mean.

335
00:20:38,644 --> 00:20:40,425
I'm not going to BS them.

336
00:20:40,425 --> 00:20:42,445
So I tend to be able to attract.

337
00:20:42,598 --> 00:20:47,066
certain kinds of high quality people, I
don't appeal to everybody, but certain

338
00:20:47,066 --> 00:20:50,311
kinds of high quality people that'll stay
with us on the mission.

339
00:20:50,311 --> 00:20:51,393
Those are some of the reasons.

340
00:20:51,393 --> 00:20:54,559
I'm sure there's others I hadn't thought
about that a little bit, Michael, but I'm

341
00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:56,541
sure those are some of the reasons.

342
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,246
What about before Fair Warning, you said
there were four companies, what were the

343
00:21:00,246 --> 00:21:03,631
other two other, you know, before Fair
Warning and Bunker?

344
00:21:04,091 --> 00:21:11,137
So the, it was open network and we did a
web single sign on security product for

345
00:21:11,137 --> 00:21:12,478
businesses around the world.

346
00:21:12,478 --> 00:21:13,579
That was in the internet.

347
00:21:13,579 --> 00:21:16,220
That was as the internet was breaking.

348
00:21:16,942 --> 00:21:18,543
And we had great customers.

349
00:21:18,543 --> 00:21:22,766
We had, you know, Anheuser-Busch and
Progressive Auto Insurance and EMI Music

350
00:21:22,766 --> 00:21:27,811
and Lloyd's of London and just all these
amazing companies around the world.

351
00:21:27,811 --> 00:21:31,293
And we were responsible for their
customers.

352
00:21:31,374 --> 00:21:34,835
signing on to the website securely and
doing business.

353
00:21:34,895 --> 00:21:40,397
And you start calculating how like Halifax
Bank of Scotland used our product to

354
00:21:40,397 --> 00:21:44,918
conduct about 40% of all mortgage business
in the world.

355
00:21:45,138 --> 00:21:49,099
And you start realizing how much
responsibility comes with a successful

356
00:21:49,099 --> 00:21:50,060
company.

357
00:21:51,180 --> 00:21:55,201
You know, whether it's in the public space
or consumer space or whether it's B2B.

358
00:21:55,862 --> 00:21:58,883
And it is so much responsibility.

359
00:21:58,883 --> 00:21:59,744
And I loved it.

360
00:21:59,744 --> 00:22:05,127
I love to be able to look out there and
know that, you know, if progressive auto

361
00:22:05,127 --> 00:22:08,749
insurance, you'd see them on television or
know that a person got a mortgage in

362
00:22:08,749 --> 00:22:13,111
Europe, or quite frankly, if they're
drinking a Budweiser beer somewhere that

363
00:22:13,111 --> 00:22:14,952
you had some small thing to do with that.

364
00:22:14,952 --> 00:22:19,275
We had, I think we had 80% of all the Blue
Cross and Blue Shield.

365
00:22:19,275 --> 00:22:21,796
So probably a hundred million people
there.

366
00:22:22,557 --> 00:22:24,597
And so all of that.

367
00:22:24,650 --> 00:22:28,951
resonated with me and as does Bunker
today, like when I get to say, hey, we

368
00:22:28,951 --> 00:22:31,971
protect families in 35 countries around
the world.

369
00:22:32,052 --> 00:22:36,153
And you think of Turkey, we're like, hey,
we got customers in Turkey.

370
00:22:36,153 --> 00:22:36,813
That's pretty good.

371
00:22:36,813 --> 00:22:37,853
I like that.

372
00:22:37,913 --> 00:22:41,494
And so that's, I just identified something
else.

373
00:22:41,494 --> 00:22:47,416
Like I love the idea of like being
responsible for the success of it, of what

374
00:22:47,416 --> 00:22:52,417
you see on television or people that you
meet, knowing that you are responsible for

375
00:22:52,417 --> 00:22:53,597
something positive in their life.

376
00:22:53,597 --> 00:22:54,717
I really love that.

377
00:22:55,112 --> 00:22:56,509
and the fourth company.

378
00:22:57,550 --> 00:23:05,112
The fourth company I left, that was a
company called OpenWeb.

379
00:23:05,232 --> 00:23:08,973
And it was just like a software company
that was building software components for

380
00:23:08,973 --> 00:23:11,313
websites in the very earliest days.

381
00:23:11,633 --> 00:23:18,075
And I sold that to, um, US web out of
Santa Clara, California.

382
00:23:18,515 --> 00:23:22,176
Uh, in, and, uh, that one went pretty
fast.

383
00:23:22,176 --> 00:23:26,237
Meaning I think that, I think I started
and sold it in less than two years.

384
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:27,242
Wow.

385
00:23:27,347 --> 00:23:28,086
Well, what.

386
00:23:28,086 --> 00:23:31,397
sold to BMC software of Houston, Texas.

387
00:23:31,728 --> 00:23:32,408
Right, right.

388
00:23:32,408 --> 00:23:33,168
That's amazing.

389
00:23:33,168 --> 00:23:35,409
All four, all three so far.

390
00:23:35,409 --> 00:23:41,432
So I want to, you know, I always describe
this as a friendly interview, and it is,

391
00:23:41,432 --> 00:23:48,315
but I want to ask you a difficult question
because you raised, first of all, the

392
00:23:48,315 --> 00:23:54,678
emphasis on law abiding in what, of
course, we still live in a democracy here

393
00:23:54,678 --> 00:23:58,759
so far, so far so good, though.

394
00:23:58,992 --> 00:24:02,233
You know, there are questions being raised
about it right now.

395
00:24:02,293 --> 00:24:09,697
But in countries like Turkey, which are
more authoritarian, law abiding means

396
00:24:09,958 --> 00:24:17,782
could or raises the question, could bunker
be used somehow against people?

397
00:24:19,523 --> 00:24:23,485
Or if you think of Hungary, if you think,
you know, I mean, or you think of China, I

398
00:24:23,485 --> 00:24:26,498
don't know if you have any customers in
China, but that.

399
00:24:26,498 --> 00:24:27,621
That's an interesting one.

400
00:24:27,621 --> 00:24:31,348
China is one of the very few countries
that you might hear of that we do not.

401
00:24:31,348 --> 00:24:32,469
But go ahead, Michael.

402
00:24:33,308 --> 00:24:38,492
Well, no, that's my question is like the
great thing about technology is that when

403
00:24:38,492 --> 00:24:43,415
it works, it can make life much better and
even more secure in this case.

404
00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:49,261
But it can also, you know, the tables can
be turned if it's in the wrong hands.

405
00:24:49,261 --> 00:24:54,065
So that's the that's the AI question in
spades today.

406
00:24:54,065 --> 00:24:55,986
But but it's also a question for you.

407
00:24:55,986 --> 00:25:00,470
It's like, what do you do if the president
of Turkey says, I want to see the

408
00:25:00,470 --> 00:25:02,671
communication of my my.

409
00:25:03,429 --> 00:25:05,327
Yeah, that's the hard question.

410
00:25:05,442 --> 00:25:06,843
no, so that's a great question.

411
00:25:06,843 --> 00:25:11,466
And so on that one, you know, we've had to
think through this and I'm going to side,

412
00:25:11,466 --> 00:25:14,567
we're based in the U S and I would side
with the U S state department.

413
00:25:14,567 --> 00:25:16,068
Like we're always going to have.

414
00:25:16,769 --> 00:25:19,871
I've always had businesses where I had to
get caught.

415
00:25:19,871 --> 00:25:23,753
I've had a lot of responsibility over the
years of securing all these businesses and

416
00:25:23,753 --> 00:25:26,094
patients and over trillions of dollars of
assets.

417
00:25:26,274 --> 00:25:29,756
So I'm used to having lawyers around and
I've had to be in compliance with

418
00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:31,997
regulations, literally around the world.

419
00:25:32,322 --> 00:25:38,605
and you listen to your lawyers and you,
you know, I'm going to lean toward the US

420
00:25:38,605 --> 00:25:42,267
State Department and I'm going to do what
the US State Department says to be

421
00:25:42,267 --> 00:25:45,529
forthright with you and that's where my
loyalties lie and that's the best I can

422
00:25:45,529 --> 00:25:46,129
do.

423
00:25:46,492 --> 00:25:53,551
Yeah, I mean, I don't think that gets you
out of the conundrum because if, if for

424
00:25:53,551 --> 00:25:54,235
example,

425
00:25:54,235 --> 00:25:56,479
I mean, you can always off platform them,
right?

426
00:25:56,479 --> 00:25:58,943
I mean, you can off platform people.

427
00:25:58,943 --> 00:26:03,612
If our US State Department, I have
sufficient legal advice to say, listen,

428
00:26:03,612 --> 00:26:04,893
off platform them.

429
00:26:04,894 --> 00:26:05,555
I have no problem.

430
00:26:05,555 --> 00:26:07,128
I mean, that's what has to happen.

431
00:26:07,128 --> 00:26:08,549
that's a longer conversation.

432
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:13,650
I do want to ask you finally, we got a few
more minutes and you've done some really

433
00:26:13,650 --> 00:26:15,811
interesting philanthropic work.

434
00:26:16,451 --> 00:26:20,392
Once you succeed like you have, you get
some options.

435
00:26:20,533 --> 00:26:25,354
And I know that you're pretty deeply
involved with two different academic

436
00:26:26,475 --> 00:26:29,715
ventures that I wish you would describe
for us.

437
00:26:31,254 --> 00:26:34,215
So I've got a handful of them going on
right now.

438
00:26:34,215 --> 00:26:38,458
And you're right, we have done a lot of
philanthropic work, but I'm just gonna

439
00:26:38,458 --> 00:26:42,920
stick to the ones we're either engaged
with or evaluating right now.

440
00:26:43,361 --> 00:26:46,262
One is with a group of people out of
Denmark.

441
00:26:46,462 --> 00:26:48,604
It's a company called Voluntis.

442
00:26:48,604 --> 00:26:53,006
And I've known these ladies and gentlemen
for seven, eight years.

443
00:26:53,166 --> 00:26:56,208
They measure meaningfulness around the
world.

444
00:26:56,208 --> 00:26:59,162
I just spoke to one of them Monday.

445
00:26:59,162 --> 00:27:08,710
he had gone to Kiev to measure, to work
with UNICEF, to measure meaningfulness in

446
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:10,131
war-torn country.

447
00:27:10,131 --> 00:27:14,014
And I think he got the green light, we'll
know later.

448
00:27:14,114 --> 00:27:17,157
And so now, how's that tied together?

449
00:27:17,157 --> 00:27:23,522
We're measuring the youth meaningful index
from kids, directly from kids, not from

450
00:27:23,522 --> 00:27:27,705
their parents, not after they're adults,
but directly from children.

451
00:27:28,162 --> 00:27:32,543
uh, that are between the ages like nine
and 15 and the results that have come back

452
00:27:32,543 --> 00:27:36,905
are deeply fascinating and we've applied
AI to it as well.

453
00:27:37,065 --> 00:27:43,108
And it's things like, um, they get meaning
out of, believe it or not, solitude and

454
00:27:43,108 --> 00:27:45,889
that what includes sleep or just being
alone.

455
00:27:45,889 --> 00:27:50,211
And, you know, I, I didn't think of it
until the results come out and make sense

456
00:27:50,411 --> 00:27:54,573
and they want to be in nature and they
want to interact with animals.

457
00:27:54,573 --> 00:27:56,673
As well as just be in nature.

458
00:27:56,970 --> 00:28:02,391
They call it like connection and
connection might mean family and it also

459
00:28:02,391 --> 00:28:07,352
means friends, but then connection also
means philanthropy.

460
00:28:07,352 --> 00:28:08,993
They want to do something for the greater
good.

461
00:28:08,993 --> 00:28:14,514
So there's six components that we've
discovered in this youth meaningful index

462
00:28:14,514 --> 00:28:17,135
survey across Europe, in India.

463
00:28:17,135 --> 00:28:18,716
We're bringing it to the United States.

464
00:28:18,716 --> 00:28:20,196
That's part of my job.

465
00:28:20,456 --> 00:28:26,037
And we're making that available through
organizations like UNICEF.

466
00:28:26,430 --> 00:28:33,814
perhaps the United Nations and other
organizations that can scale this out so

467
00:28:33,814 --> 00:28:39,357
that in the classroom or at home or in a
charter school, wherever it's happening,

468
00:28:39,598 --> 00:28:44,661
people are better equipped to understand
what creates meaning in a child's life.

469
00:28:44,721 --> 00:28:46,902
So that's what I'm really excited about.

470
00:28:47,302 --> 00:28:50,324
And that's with Voluntis and some other
wonderful people.

471
00:28:50,324 --> 00:28:51,385
So that's the first one.

472
00:28:51,385 --> 00:28:52,905
Any questions on that one?

473
00:28:53,688 --> 00:28:55,130
Well, we're sort of short on time.

474
00:28:55,130 --> 00:29:00,555
I want to make sure I ask you about you
have an abiding interest in liberal arts

475
00:29:01,597 --> 00:29:06,902
and have backed a program in Florida, I
believe, to facilitate that.

476
00:29:06,902 --> 00:29:08,298
Can you tell us about that one?

477
00:29:08,298 --> 00:29:10,878
Well, we've not backed that one yet.

478
00:29:11,199 --> 00:29:17,922
We've not committed to that one, but it is
something the University of Florida, it's

479
00:29:17,922 --> 00:29:19,182
ongoing, Michael.

480
00:29:19,862 --> 00:29:23,264
There is a third one I'll take off the
table for brevity.

481
00:29:23,264 --> 00:29:26,285
But at the University of Florida, they're
doing something super interesting out of

482
00:29:26,285 --> 00:29:27,726
the Hamilton Center.

483
00:29:28,506 --> 00:29:31,387
It's not just a study of Western
civilization.

484
00:29:31,988 --> 00:29:36,749
The second leg of this is civil discourse.

485
00:29:36,862 --> 00:29:42,885
And they have a course in civil discourse,
which for those who say, what does that

486
00:29:42,885 --> 00:29:43,145
mean?

487
00:29:43,145 --> 00:29:47,228
Well, it really means that we can have a
conversation and disagree.

488
00:29:47,228 --> 00:29:51,170
And even if we really, really disagree, we
don't call each other names and we don't

489
00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:56,954
cancel each other, that we can talk to
each other and be open-minded and close

490
00:29:56,954 --> 00:29:57,914
the gap.

491
00:29:58,095 --> 00:30:02,578
And they are moving toward teaching that
course to.

492
00:30:02,578 --> 00:30:06,582
every single student at the school that
has a population of 55,000.

493
00:30:07,163 --> 00:30:12,990
So I find that a super intriguing project
that we're evaluating, but just the idea

494
00:30:12,990 --> 00:30:19,138
that there could be 55,000 people entering
the world having learned how to talk to

495
00:30:19,138 --> 00:30:22,601
one another without getting mad, I think
is just in alone amazing.

496
00:30:22,784 --> 00:30:26,826
In Symbol Discourse, you know, I spent 13
years in Aspen.

497
00:30:26,826 --> 00:30:32,569
It was it was core tenant of along with
great books and great, great.

498
00:30:32,830 --> 00:30:36,552
I forget what they call them great
discussions or things like that.

499
00:30:36,552 --> 00:30:39,433
But but it was all based on Symbol
Discourse.

500
00:30:39,433 --> 00:30:44,176
Well, I want to I want to remind everybody
you've been listening to the Accelerator

501
00:30:44,176 --> 00:30:48,238
with Michael Conniff or on all the major
platforms, audio and video.

502
00:30:48,238 --> 00:30:51,159
Also make sure to subscribe to our sub
stack.

503
00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:57,562
newsletter so that you can get each and
every one of our Accelerator and Angel

504
00:30:57,562 --> 00:30:58,702
podcasts.

505
00:30:58,802 --> 00:31:06,005
And I want to thank Kurt Long, now a
Bunker, late of Fair Warning, Open

506
00:31:06,005 --> 00:31:09,746
Network, Open Web, a classic serial
entrepreneur.

507
00:31:09,746 --> 00:31:12,687
It's been really interesting and great to
talk to you, Kurt.

508
00:31:12,687 --> 00:31:14,047
Thanks for being with us.

509
00:31:14,434 --> 00:31:15,489
Thank you, Michael.

510
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,287
And I want to remind you all out there.

511
00:31:18,287 --> 00:31:21,256
We'll be back with another podcast before
you know it