Intro: The 90s are back and so is Gina on the Adam McKay train,
Joe Vs. the Volcano,
Dan Hedaya, absurdism, hating the planet,
Don't Look Up, #whatdosingleasianwomendoafterwork
Let Me Run This By You: putting yourself in a new and unfamiliar context, Michael Shannon's
Red Orchid theatre,
Wallace Shawn's
Evening at the Talk House, asshole casting directors, wearing ear pieces, when Boz got a perm,
Art and Science Hair Salon.
Interview: We talk to Jenna Ebersberger about growing up in LA,
Columbia College,
Second City, the
Groundlings,
Barbara Robertson,
Wondery,
My Favorite MurderFULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Kalichi. We went to theater school
1 (12s):
Together. We survived it.
2 (14s):
He didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (22s):
And you will too. Are we famous yet? I mean, I think the bubble is going to burst a little bit, but I don't think it's going to pop all the way. Like, I don't think it's gonna be over over, but I just think that life is a series of bubbles popping. Right? It's like a series. I see. Everything is so cyclical. And the thing that actually funny enough made me see it truly is watching fashion styles. Right? So like the nineties are really in and I'm like cracking up at coworking and looking around. Cause a lot of my co-working cohort are wearing nineties clothes because they're young and I am just like, oh my God, I, I, it is unbelievable how the things that, and this happens to every generation.
1 (1m 15s):
I mean, we're, I'm not unique. I know this, but like, I'm like, oh, if you want to look at why things are, how things are cyclical, look at the fashion, like, look at what is happening. I make the huge, the mom jeans wide legs.
2 (1m 31s):
Right. But at the same time, how come like the forties haven't come back or the, or maybe they have, maybe they come back in little ways or the twenties I wanna, I want to, or the fifties, even you don't really here. You don't really see, I guess maybe the fifth, late fifties and early sixties had somewhat of a resurgence with mad men. And they did that whole co-branding with J crew. Oh wait, is J crew still a company?
1 (1m 53s):
Yeah, it is. I mean, I think they keep going bankrupt, but then they keep getting saved. So I know it's a company because I shop there at the outlets. So it's still around. I just don't know. They're always, and I think they're all owned by like the gap, right. Or like I had
2 (2m 10s):
UPMC.
1 (2m 12s):
So basically Michael Jackson's estate owns. Yeah.
2 (2m 15s):
Yes. Pretty much. I mean, I wouldn't be, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised. Okay. That leads me to this thing. I wanted to give you an update about, which is that I finally finished watching. Don't look up. Oh,
1 (2m 28s):
The MCAT
2 (2m 29s):
I'm back on the Adam McKay train. I thought it was a great movie. I give it a, give it a thumbs up. I completely understand. I've never read specific criticisms of it, but I completely understand that some people don't like it and it had kind of a sensibility to me, it kind of, it absurd a sensibility that a lot of people just don't care for it because it just feels too outside. Like I like a lot of things that get really panned when you know, the flops, like I liked Joe versus the volcano was a total commercial flight. Love
1 (3m 8s):
That movie. I think that movie is fucking brilliant. And I so good. I realized that I get a lot of my language from that movie in terms of, I go, I'm like, oh my God, she's such a flibbertigibbet
2 (3m 19s):
She's such a flibbertigibbet I have a t-shirt that says I'm not arguing that with you. And as a picture of Dan Hidatsa sitting at his desk, I mean that God, I challenge you to find a better piece of solo performance and phone acting than Dan <em></em> in
1 (3m 38s):
Joe versus the
2 (3m 39s):
Brilliant. So good. Yeah. Go ahead. So, so, so don't look up. Yeah. It's well, it's absurd because it is absurd the way that we've completely trashed this planet in such a short period of time and also the way in which we're just, we, we both, we simultaneously know this and just keep doing all the same things that we've always done. Well, yeah. Even people who are climate warriors who are doing the most, I, I feel like it doesn't matter anymore. It's all over.
1 (4m 12s):
Yeah. I mean, I think that I just get this, this feeling that we're too late and maybe, and this is just always what I come down to. And I think it's easier for me because I, in some ways to say this, cause I don't have children, but like maybe this is supposed to be happening since it's happening. Like maybe we did this and then we have to face the consequences. Like we're always so used to being
2 (4m 44s):
Saved or having to face being
1 (4m 46s):
Saved by something or someone like, maybe this is it for us. And look, maybe there's another species that could come and do a better job. Like we, we can't be the only,
2 (5m 1s):
No girl, we cannot be the only ones. And what's funny about the, are you going to watch the movie? Don't look up? I don't want to spoil it for her. So yeah, the whole thing is about, there's a comment coming and the scientists are going to the president and they're trying to figure out how to spin it. And then what they finally come up with this, with this Steve jobs type character that the technology guy played to perfection by mark Rylance comes up with this technological solution to he's going to send these missiles. And they're going to attach themselves to the comment because, because, because the comment actually has this very precious metal that they need to, they need, of course.
2 (5m 41s):
So they it's like this thing where they send these 20 missile, drones, whatever they are that are supposed to attach themselves to the comment and then break it into pieces. It just lands in the ocean and doesn't hurt anybody. But of course it fails. And at the very last minute, Meryl Streep who plays president, her character gets into, she calls. She makes, she calls Leonardo DiCaprio's character and says, listen, we've got these eight pods and they fit four people a piece or something like that. And the idea is if you get in it, you know, it's something that's going to survive Armageddon. So he says, no thanks. And presumably it's just her.
2 (6m 22s):
And maybe this mark Rylance guy, the end of the movie shows 22,000 years later. And those pods land on the planet, I don't know, I guess it's earth, which has been repopulated with dinosaurs and all the pods land and everybody gets out and they they're all they're all girl. Yes. I would never have guessed that. But that's exactly what happened. But before that, what you notice is that everybody who gets out of the pods is all old white people. So that they're gonna, this is the people who are going to repopulate the really planet and then Meryl Streep's character gets dragged away by a pterodactyl.
2 (7m 3s):
Great. It was just beautiful. I just, I loved it. I absolutely
1 (7m 6s):
It's perfect. That's a perfect ending. Yeah. That's what way? Well, that is like crafted the hell out a story. That is correct.
2 (7m 14s):
Well, I mean, I think so. I think so. And, and, and I guess my thing is like, if you don't think so w if people think it's, so I guess that's what happens with, for me and absurd things is that I think what people don't like about it is it just feels too far fetched, but see, those, those things don't feel that farfetched to me. I mean, maybe it's not going to happen in exactly that way in these pods and then people landing down and they're all naked. Maybe it's not that they were naked. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't really, I guess it was supposed to be like the garden of Eden. It was supposed to be like, yeah, but something like that can and will happen. It may not look exactly like it did in this movie, but it's not really that absurd.
2 (7m 57s):
I guess that's the thing is like a lot of these absurd things are, it's not that it's heightened, but it's not that far off the mark. Do you know what I'm saying?
1 (8m 4s):
I know exactly what you're saying. And also look, I think, again, it comes down to psychology of, nobody wants to admit that we've done this to ourselves
2 (8m 15s):
Completely.
1 (8m 16s):
You, the human mind can not, can only take so much like truth. Right? We've done this. No, nobody did this to us. We did this, you know, I always think of, and this is just something that you said, but it was literally 2000. And I want to say around two, when you lived in Chicago, was it like 2007?
2 (8m 40s):
The second time? Yeah. 2000. Well, we moved there in 2004, and then we left in 2007.
1 (8m 51s):
Yeah. Okay. So it was, it was, it was right after, so it right around there right before you moved and I was at your apartment and, and we were talking about recycling and I was like, oh, do you guys recycle? And you're like, no, just put it over there. Aaron hates the environment. And it was, and he doesn't, and I'm not saying that he does or anything like that, but it was so funny. And I vow to say that all the time when I do something, because we all do it. That is not planet affirming. I go, oh, I hate the environment. That's like this movie, right. It's like absurd.
1 (9m 32s):
It's
2 (9m 32s):
Absurd. It's
1 (9m 33s):
Absurd. Has Aaron hates
2 (9m 36s):
It's the environment. Yeah. I used to say that all the time. I forgot about that. Well, and recycling is PS a complete and total joke. I mean, unless we did it the way that they do it in Japan were really resigned. They have 15 different bins and everybody's very responsible and yeah, it's because they're very community oriented, by the way. Have you seen these videos on Tik TOK that go like a single, a single woman, a single woman going home after work and they take, and I, I've only seen three of them and they, they seem to all be in Japan.
2 (10m 17s):
Okay. It's fascinating. I'm going to send one to you. So it's a meme, I guess, cause I've seen three different videos that have the same sort of idea, which is, it's a video of a woman coming home to her apartment at the end of her Workday going inside. And then what happens next is a series of probably a hundred very complex, but, but maybe not even that complex, but like very prescribed steps that they do when they get home. So this one, she gets home. She immediately puts her shoes in this place that she immediately cleans off. And then she puts on these slippers that have been sitting in a antibacterial chamber and then she, and then she makes herself a full three course meal.
2 (11m 6s):
But using all of these machines, I've never seen before. It's a bunch of, it's a bunch of like put this thing to this machine. I am not doing justice describing it. I've put, puts for glasses into a sanitizing tray. I mean, it just like on the one hand, I think, wow, what an impeccable order to your life. In the other hand, I think what a prison, you have to do that every single time I'm going to send it to you because I, I be curious to know what your thoughts are.
1 (11m 38s):
I've seen like snippets of that. And I, I, haven't watched a little thing, so I'd love to watch the whole thing, but yeah, I know what you're saying in terms of it's, it's insane. And yet it serves some purpose and I'm sure it probably keeps her cleaner and also sick lists. I don't know.
2 (12m 5s):
Right. And also like one of the things that seems so unrealistic for, if it was me as a single person, I would never, as a single person come home and cook myself a full meal, like I would come home and eat cheese and crackers and have an apple and call it a day. Right. But maybe this adherence to a structure, both feels, makes her feel less alone, you know, more connected to like her culture or whatever. And like, maybe it's much better self care
1 (12m 36s):
Maybe. Yeah. Maybe this is self care. Yeah. The other thing that I've seen that are similar, and I do believe it's been from Japan as well, are the beauty routines in the morning before work.
2 (12m 47s):
Okay. Like involved and there's like 40
1 (12m 50s):
Steps. I, I, it is awe and awe inspiring, but also both like what she looks great. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not knocking that, but it literally the steps, maybe 40 steps. There's like all kinds of creams and sabz and lotions and buffing. And then I lashes and make, and then that's just that. And then the makeup and the hair, it literally, it looks like, I mean, she probably has it down to it like a really fast routine. But if I tried that it would be like four hours and then I would never leave disaster.
2 (13m 30s):
I never look as good as, yeah. I know. I think about that a lot with the whole beauty thing. Like when I see somebody who does that, I have so much respect and appreciation for like the amount of dedication that it takes to do that. I just can't bring myself to get excited about that. When I watched the real Housewives, I realized that like, they, they have to do that. This is their thing. This is the thing that they offer to the world. I'm not saying it is their only talent or is their only value. I'm just saying like, for whatever reason, it's been decided that this is their commodifiable resource.
2 (14m 13s):
Right. And they got
1 (14m 15s):
Like the Kardashians. I mean, they are, that's, their job is to look a certain way and like newscasters in some way to talk about this. And like, I'm not knocking it. I just think it's a bad career fit for me. It's that
2 (14m 32s):
It would never
1 (14m 33s):
Work being a flight attendant for me was probably be a terrible or yeah. Something, something where I'd have to do that. Not a good fit, not a good fit, a good
2 (14m 42s):
Fit
1 (14m 52s):
First time guests on somebody else as else's podcast. And it was so interesting to watch a host. And it was only like 20 minutes. It was like so short compared to our, and he talks about that compared to our podcasts, which is long, but it was interesting. It was like, it was like just interesting to watch the whole thing go down. I had so many feelings of like, oh, I wish we had longer. Oh, this is fun. Oh yeah. Okay. It just, all the things, you know, cause we're never interviewed, right?
2 (15m 32s):
Yes. We're never interviewed. And I was pretty impressed with how, how well, I mean, being able to package something into a, into a smaller package is, is a skill that people need to have when you have a product essentially, that you're trying to sell. I was worried about my ability to condense anything that I wanted to say into something that, you know, but we both did beautifully with that.
1 (16m 0s):
We're actors. I mean, look, this is acting, we were trained to do this. Like if you stand on stage and you don't deliver your lines in a, in a way that is like somewhat cohesive, right. Or like, I don't know. Interesting. You're never, it you're going to be kicked right off the stage. Like I'm at the Apollo style. So like when push comes to shove, I do feel like actors, especially yeah. Actors, but humans too will do the thing they need to do. Like when push comes to shove, most of us, some of us freeze and then it's like a whole, and I love those moments because that's like my fear.
1 (16m 42s):
Right. So when that actually happens, not to me, but when that happens to other people like watching that on television, you know, that's what we watch when people freeze and everything goes haywire. I live for those moments. I don't want them to happen to me, but I,
2 (16m 59s):
So I was thinking of you and I forgot to tell you about this. I went to see that play with ed, Ryan shadow ed, Hey,
1 (17m 7s):
Hey, he's also my buddy this month. So I we've been, we've been talking about
2 (17m 10s):
That's right. So we went to see this play and it was in previews. And in the first 10 minutes, what happened? This, I just saw this woman just completely go off on her lines. And she was in a scene with one other person. And so the other person said, well, what about, you know, and weren't you telling me that worked for a little while. And then she was just so lost. She was just so
1 (17m 40s):
She was panicking inside or was she just like, I don't know what's happening.
2 (17m 46s):
I can't imagine how she wouldn't be panicking, but at the same, she did not look like she was panicking. Interesting. And, and I heard something that I've never heard before the stage manager came over the God mic and gave her her line. Wow. I don't know why she didn't have an earpiece. Right. If this was a problem with,
1 (18m 4s):
Maybe it wasn't like maybe she had been doing great. Like maybe it was the first preview.
2 (18m 10s):
I'm actually not sure which previously, I didn't know. It was previews until after.
1 (18m 16s):
Wow. And she
2 (18m 17s):
Was an older woman. So I've, that's one thing I've heard. I've in fact, I have asked people to be in stuff that they've said no to, because they feel they're too old to memorize a lot of lines for a play.
1 (18m 28s):
Yeah. I mean, that is a real thing too. Like I, your memory. So I think partially what happens to me too and why I'm so not keen to be an actor anymore is that as I go through menopause, my memory gets weird, mixed with anxiety mixed with, I mean, it's a whole plethora, but I, I respect people that are like, oh, memorization. Not for me. You know? Like,
2 (18m 53s):
Yeah. Rather than putting yourself in that position,
1 (18m 56s):
You know, like I was in a play, this is fantastic. So I was at a play at the, at the amazing red orchid theater, which is the Michael Shannon, you know, anyway. So I was in a play. I was actually the understudy, but I went on a bunch and the lead actor literally had the Wallace, Shawn play evening at the talk house. So really, but his Mo his whole, the, we opened on the guy speaking for like five minutes. And it is all
2 (19m 27s):
A Sean special. Yeah. He loves that.
1 (19m 29s):
And so this actor had an earpiece and I, at first I was really judgmental about it, but what he did was he didn't use it through the whole thing, but he used it throughout rehearsals to just hear it and hear it. And then it was like training wheels. He took it off, but he did wear it, I think, during a preview. And you could hear it. That wasn't the good thing. That's not a good, that took me out. And I just told the stage manager because I was in the audience, you know, during dresses and stuff. And I just said, Hey, like, I just want to let you know. And she said, oh, he does this all the time. He'll take it off before opening buddy up so great for him.
1 (20m 9s):
But I people use them all the time. Pachino uses them, like people use them.
2 (20m 14s):
And then there's the whole other problem that we were hearing about when we heard Kay. Talk about going on, you know, in Andrew, please. And then the, the thing is if you're not used to getting prompted by an ear mic, like a newscaster is, then, then it's very confusing
1 (20m 30s):
When you look crazy. Because really, I mean, I, so, so yeah. And I've had auditions where, oh my gosh, this was where I thought it, it turned out everyone had this problem. But the thing about auditioning is you think it's just you. So like, unless you talked to the other auditioners later, <em></em> whatever. So, so there was an audition, a commercial audition where they were like, you will have the copy up on a board, right? Like on. And so don't remember you don't and it didn't actually give us the copy right in, before we show up the person running the audition was this woman who's no longer in the business.
1 (21m 13s):
Who's a giant asshole. And she had the thing up, but it was so much, it was written teeny. You couldn't read. That was the first problem. And I didn't have glasses cause my parents are assholes and they never gave me glasses. So I couldn't see. And also there was a tremendous amount of action we were supposed to be doing while it was ho Larry's. So I couldn't get it. Like I couldn't get it. And by the end she was like, that's great. You got it. And I didn't, I walked out and I burst into tears and I was because I was looking and I called my agent. She's like, don't worry about it.
1 (21m 53s):
Then I'm waiting for the bus. This is in Chicago. And I see another actress in tears coming out and I said, oh my God, did you audition? She goes, yes. I go, oh my God. It's not us. And then it turns out we all got online and started talking about it. Cause it's, there's like a Chicago actors group. And they were like, who's just that blah, blah, everyone. She made everyone cry because you couldn't read the raw. And the person who ended up, she's no longer the business. She got her ass kicked out. But the, but the purse should the casting director, but the person who booked it ear piece had an ear piece. So how did not in the onset.
1 (22m 36s):
Okay. Yeah. So she later we found out the person, the woman, Gail, who booked it had, I know her she's amazing. But she said they had to do an earpiece. Literally it was folding laundry, cutting coupons, doing all these things while this huge monologue, like maybe, I don't know, like, like three minutes of dialogue, straight up to the camera and it was a completely cold read. They didn't give you any sense. No wonder why. Cause she's an idiot. She is an idiot. This casting director was terrible. She's not in the business. She was not a big cast. She was like, she was also so rude. She was like, well, I don't understand the problem. Just relax.
1 (23m 17s):
No, no, no. So I love that, that you guys all then like got together. I mean, this is the thing that happens, right. Is that actors just feel alone. And I wrote, I saw her, I was at the bus stop and I saw this woman coming out, who I vaguely knew at the time at crying. And I said, oh my God, I just have to ask you, are you just in that commercial audition? And she goes, yeah, it was horror. I said, oh my God, girl, girl, I got to tell. And then I made her feel better. She made me feel better than we became friends. And then we talk shit about the lady for awhile called her agents. And it was fine. And our agents were like, fuck that lady. You know? So it works out. But man, it was traumatizing. I was like, okay.
2 (23m 57s):
Oh, of course it was. That just makes me think about how many things in this world rely upon people. Not having all of the information like this person. We're not for the ability of the actors to coalesce and talk about something she did wrong. She would probably still be in this position. And a lot of things do seem to rely upon like people not figuring out something. Like, I think about this in terms of things that people are selling. And I think, you know, like I don't have a specific example, but I know that just yesterday I was thinking, oh, this whole model relies upon people. Not realizing that they, if they just did this, they could do it for free.
2 (24m 38s):
Right. You know? And I hate that kind of, I hate that kind of making a buck like I'm okay with hustling to make a buck. But if your whole thing is propped up by the lie, that, that actually, if the person just, you know, pressed F seven, they would never have to pay you 39, 99 a month.
1 (24m 58s):
Just copy and paste. You're fine. Like you don't. That is so true. There's so many things like that. I got to say like everybody I'm wearing these noise, canceling headphones. They're so heavy that like, I'm getting hurts. I have to, I, you can't see me, but I'm doing these neck rolls. I've never had headphones like this. I literally feel I'm underwater, but that's okay.
2 (25m 18s):
Yeah. After you have to take them off after a while. Cause they, they start to hurt your ears.
1 (25m 22s):
I mean, I literally, which reminds me of when we were in college, Don Elko, our acting teacher member had us do a physical change exercise. Right. We had to physically drastically change something about our physical appearance. Do you remember this? Oh, everyone had to do people, shaved their heads for me. I thought, okay, I'm good. I didn't know what to do. So I mean, it's a stupid exercise. I, I gotta be honest. Like you, it doesn't matter like who it was just to see what people would do. I think he did that and good for him. I mean, he could do whatever you want, but like you had to radically physically change something about your physical appearance for like three months or something.
1 (26m 7s):
It wasn't like forever or whatever. It's called physical change. I remember. And never was like, oh, what are you going to do for your physical change? What did you do it? Well, this reminds me. I thought, oh, this will be great. I'll get a, I'll get a perm. Okay. So I go to this hair salon. First of all, I have such thick hair that they had to put it in.
2 (26m 27s):
Take your seven hours
1 (26m 29s):
That they've had to put it into three sets of rollers, which are heavy. I couldn't lift my head out of the bowl. So then they had to get assistance to come and lift my head. My head weighed like 20 pounds. Right. And they were like, this is not, this is a terrible idea. But I was like, I'm screwed. I don't even, I already have wavy hair. It's not that big of a change. Who gives a fuck. It costs $300 in 1990, whatever. So at art and science in Chicago, and then I don't remember. So, okay. They lifted my head up. It was a nightmare. I took like five hours. And then, and then the thing lasted maybe a day.
1 (27m 10s):
I don't know what happened because you,
2 (27m 11s):
Maybe you washed it too
1 (27m 12s):
Fast or something. I don't know what happened, but it LA it was the biggest waste of money that I had time. And, but anyway, my head was, I've never been in a position where my head was so heavy that I couldn't move it on my own.
2 (27m 29s):
I'm it must've been because I remember I did my tattoo the summer between Today and the podcast where you're talking to Jenna ever's burger in her own words, Janet adverse burger is a smoky voice. Sketch comedy actress turned TV writer. She writes dark comedies that center around female anti-heroes and she is the voice of ads on the wondering podcast. So please enjoy our conversation with Jenna. Amherstburg Sure that Everence burger.
2 (28m 9s):
Congratulations. You survived theater school Is sheer first Columbia grad. I feel like you might be afraid.
1 (28m 23s):
We only have had someone that teaches there. Jennifer. Yeah.
2 (28m 28s):
Jen Kober actually Jen Kober. Right? Didn't she get kicked out or she got kicked. Somebody who got DePaul graduated from there. But,
1 (28m 36s):
And I don't even know if Jen Kober graduated from Columbia, but maybe she did anyway. Sorry. If you're listening, she's not listening. She doesn't give him a spot.
2 (28m 45s):
Okay. So, but you're in LA. You're originally from LA. You went to college in Chicago and now you're back,
3 (28m 51s):
Correct? Correct. Yes. I
2 (28m 53s):
Feel like you made the right.
3 (28m 54s):
You know what? Well, it's funny when I like growing up in LA, I grew up around Hollywood, like everyone's dad or mom was like in the business and I was like, you know what, I'm, I'm going to be a real theater actor. Like I'm going to, I'm gonna study and be like, whatever,
1 (29m 14s):
Terrible idea, terrible idea.
3 (29m 17s):
Right. Like one already then. But yeah. So that's why I chose Chicago is one of my reasons was I was like, well, it's such a great theater town. And you know, so I'm just going to do it. I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave this place behind. So now we're back.
2 (29m 33s):
But, but now you're back because now presumably you came back because it's really hard to live in Chicago. I mean, unless you, even if you really love it, it's hard to live there. Right. It's cold.
3 (29m 45s):
I mean, my first year in Chicago being an LA gal, I had no idea how to dress. So I got pneumonia because I didn't understand layering. And so I wore like boots and got like wet feet, Bog boots. Yeah. Cause I was like, these are fine. Like these are warm. Not realizing that like they soak up, you know, water. So, so my first year I was like, holy crap, what am I doing here? W I don't know how to do this, but I actually, I stayed in Chicago for like almost 10 years and I love Chicago.
3 (30m 25s):
I love it. It was one of those things. So I started kind of pivoting into writing. And, and that's when I was like more, there's more opportunities in LA, you know, all the writing rooms are basically in LA. And so that was the bigger decision. Moved back to LA.
1 (30m 45s):
Forgive me, my, if my internet goes wonky, we've got like, it's crazy. We have two people working here and you'd think there was like a whole team of NASA trying to me and my husband. Ridiculous. Anyway, but, so I was telling beans how I know you and how I know you is we were both at Shirley Hamilton and they asked me if I would come in and read, because they were short staffed. And I came in and read, and you were doing a thing for a Disney movie or pilot, and you were so good. I was like, oh my gosh, I hope she books us as she should book everything. And then we kind of stayed in touch. And then I must have reached out to you like a real weirdo when I lived here.
3 (31m 27s):
I honestly don't know if it was you or if it was me, like, I, I don't know.
1 (31m 33s):
'cause, I'm always the weirdo. So that's better. I'm not in this case.
3 (31m 37s):
Yeah. But yeah, I think we were just like, cause I maybe reached out to you cause I'm still looking like I'm still acting. And so I was like looking for an agent out here and I think I was just like, I know you help.
2 (31m 52s):
Yeah. Yeah, no, that's what you have to do. You have to literally, you have to do call upon every single person that you've ever known. So, but you want it to be a serious theater actress. And, and I, what I know about you now is that you came a sketch comedy writer. So like what happened there?
3 (32m 9s):
Well, what's so funny is like, comedy has always been my thing. Like my first play ever, I played a French boy. It was like a French boy that was like the comic relief. And so like, comedy has always been number one thing, but I fell in love with Shakespeare when I was in high school, my theater, my high school theater teacher, Mr. Whalen, love him, amazing guy, a big Shakespeare guy. And actually my tattoo is I have a Hamlet tattoo on my wrist.
1 (32m 45s):
That's awesome.
3 (32m 47s):
Four scene, five of Hamlet when Ofelia goes crazy or, you know, mad. And she says, we know what we are, but no, not what we may be an 18 year old may was like, right. Yeah. I don't know what I'm going to be. So, so that's kind of where the seriousness came in. My Mr. Wayland was, he introduced me to UDL Haagen. I mean, he introduced me to it all, you know, Sam shepherd and all the serious and whatnot. And so that was, that was the decision was, I was like, I want to do theater. I don't want to do TV. I want to do theater.
3 (33m 28s):
And I did. It was great.
1 (33m 32s):
Well, how did you pick Columbia? Like, were you like, I'm going, yeah.
3 (33m 35s):
And she picked Columbia. God will actually, that is like such a different story. That's the sad, like
1 (33m 43s):
A
3 (33m 43s):
Boy. It involves my, my high school sweetheart. It's a very long story, but basically my high school sweetheart and I had made a pact and we were like, we're going to go to college together. But he was a year younger than me. And so we had decided like, oh, like we both like wanted to go to Chicago. And so I was like, great, I'll go first. And I had, like, I had applied to Northwestern, didn't get in and got into Columbia. Totally forgot about DePaul, by the way. Like I knew about her. I knew about DePaul anyway. So that's why that was kind of like, I mean, if I'm being honest, like the real reason that I was like, I'm going to go.
3 (34m 25s):
And then he broke up with me two weeks later. It was tragic.
2 (34m 29s):
I was shocked. I did not expect that part in the story where you actually went from, broke up with you two weeks after you moved to another state. No.
1 (34m 39s):
Well, he didn't die. He didn't die. Right. Okay. Good.
2 (34m 45s):
Okay. So, so, so you go to Columbia college and you're planning to be a serious actress, but then they had a whole bunch of like comedy offerings in terms of courses. Is that
3 (34m 57s):
Yeah, so, well, funny enough when I first went to Columbia, I was not a theater major. My dad, my dad basically said in his nicest way possible, like I won't pay for it. So you should do something else and like audition for the plays. So when I first went to Columbia, my major was broadcast journalism and my minor was theater. And then I was miserable my first, my first year with the pneumonia included. But I took, I took a scene study class second semester of freshman year with Kenesha foster. If you guys know Kenny,
1 (35m 38s):
She's the reason I add, I went to two Stevens. And then, and then when she left Stevens college Kenesha, when she got fired, I quit the school.
3 (35m 50s):
I could, yes. I, I, she's amazing. I mean, like, I, I kid you not like she reignited that like passion for theater for me. And so I switched, so I switched my major to theater and then had my minor be journalism and, and it was great. And then I found out that Columbia was offering something called comedy studies, which is a semester over at the second city. And I was like, oh my God. And I didn't think I was going to get in, but I applied. And it was like, it was like applying, you know, basically to college all over again. And I got in. And so I, that was my junior year.
3 (36m 33s):
So that was fall semester of my junior year. And that, I mean, that changed the game. Like I had. Wait, did you have Jen Ellison? Yes. I sure did. Oh,
1 (36m 43s):
She's our buddy.
3 (36m 46s):
Yeah. I freaking love Jen. Jen is amazing. They're all amazing. Like I had jet Eveleth was one of our teachers. I mean, it was just such an amazing experience and it really did. It like changed the game for me. Cause I was like, oh, it was dabbled in it. Oh. As the comic relief always had fun, you know, doing that. But then it was like the history of comedy and like really immersing myself. It was a whole, it was like a study abroad basically. So I only went to second city for a whole semester. It was freaking amazing. And, and litter as like the whole, like the mama, the queen of it, she started it and it was, yeah, it changed everything in that.
3 (37m 28s):
Who is that? Who started it? I'm sorry. And Libera. She, she, she, so she started comedy studies, married to Kelly led. Correct. Who
1 (37m 40s):
Started, who was also right.
3 (37m 43s):
Okay, great. Right. And so that's where I learned to write sketches though. And that's where I started to pivot into writing was through comedy studies. But, but yeah,
2 (37m 58s):
So this is an interesting question because, because a theater conservatories do the same thing, they teach you acting, but then you've learned the history of dramatic literature. I mean, you're meant to learn that. And you, you study sort of the complete all, all aspects of theater. I think that's good, you know, in terms of having a well-rounded person, but I'm curious to know what you think about that in terms of comedy, like how much did it enhance your education to be doing the history of comedy and taking a more academic approach to it, then you might have,
3 (38m 34s):
I'm a big old nerd anyway. Like I love reading and like history was always like my best subject, other than theater. And I think it really helped. I like it like opened up so many doors for me to be like, oh, and this is why we are. And like, this is how this developed, and this is how we can also develop from like an idea or, you know, like watching something that inspires you. Like, what does that mean? Oh, I can go into this route. I don't know if I'm making any sense. It meant a lot to me,
1 (39m 10s):
You know, what's interesting is like, I think it's interesting to study the history of something that you actually give a fuck about versus yeah. So like comedy, I actually, that sounds fun. Study the history of college courses studying for me, the history of film when I did it in grad school, before I dropped out was I found it interesting about 10% of the time, because I actually don't give, I don't actually care about the art of filmmaking as much as I care about like the history of like funny women and yes. Like that would be fantastic. Yeah. So, okay. So that sounds real.
3 (39m 49s):
Exactly. Yeah. That was, that was like, for me, exactly that like the funny women, like I was like, wow. So they haven't really been given a chance, like, you know, like realizing like how far we haven't come. Like, you know, or like how far we've come, but like how there's barely any time between, like, you think it's so long ago that like, you know, women weren't allowed to do it's it's been like this amount of time, like no time at all.
2 (40m 23s):
Yeah. By the way, is that Doris snoring? Sorry. I can hear . No, no. That's okay. No, but learning about the history of women doing anything. I mean, since she has a first day of black history month, it's the same as learning about the history of black Americans that you've just never heard of before. You're like, wow. How did all of this just wide swath of information never come my direction. It's wild. Okay. So you, so I'm guessing that while you were doing that, you were really seeing yourself as a sketch performer, a second city sketch performer, but you didn't stay in Chicago forever.
2 (41m 6s):
So what happened?
3 (41m 8s):
Well, it's funny because when you any kind of sketch comedy or Eddie, you know, cause I'm in the Groundlings out here in LA it's, it's a little culty, like it's not in a bad way, but like it's like a community, right. So you get really sucked in. And so I did, I got really sucked in to second city because I enjoyed it so much. And like, I felt like I'm good at this. So I, should you like what? I'm good at something I should probably keep doing it. But yeah. I don't know. I, I got an agent from my senior showcase at Columbia, so I immediately had an agent after graduation, which was great. So I, I did start auditioning, you know, for other things, which was fabulous, but it was interesting, the things that I was auditioning for through my agent, you know, Chicago med, Chicago PD, Chicago, ju just all the Dick Wolf shows
1 (42m 7s):
Comedy. There was no competition
3 (42m 10s):
And I kid you not there's one, I almost booked, I think it was med Chicago med. I was basically on call. Like it was like the night before. And I was like waiting to hear if I like booked it. Cause I had a director session or whatever. And it was a role of a girl who she comes in. They think she's drunk, but really we find out later she has, oh crap. Now I'm forgetting what it is with the ticks. What is it when it's Lyme's disease?
1 (42m 43s):
Oh, I think that verbal tone.
3 (42m 49s):
And I was like, thinking, it was like, why did I get so far with this? And I was like, oh right. Because it was kind of funny. Like it was like kind of a funny role. And I had like, I had gotten callbacks and stuff before, but I had never gotten that far. And I was like, right, because it's funny. And I was like, I don't think there's any, I don't know. Like, like at the time I moved at the end of now Mike cat screaming
1 (43m 14s):
That's okay. We're just having a animal day theme.
3 (43m 19s):
So I left, I moved to LA at the end of 2018. And at that time it was, it was still just all the drama, Dick Wolf shows. And I'm like, I don't know I've been going at this for a little while. And I just don't know if I'm going to book any of these things. Like, I just don't know if this is, if I am this kind of network drama actor. So maybe I'll go somewhere that has a little more variety in terms of TV. Cause I was, I was doing well with theater and stuff. Like I was working in theaters and, and all that.
1 (43m 51s):
What about like the second city route? Like, were you not like in terms of finishing the kids, did you, did you do all the levels and then like, okay, so why not stay there and try to get on the main stage and all that crap where you were like, I'm outta here?
3 (44m 5s):
Well, that's hard. So
1 (44m 9s):
The truth. Tell us, you don't have to say why was, why is it hard?
3 (44m 15s):
Well, I think it is like I was saying, it's a community. It's a little and it's a little favorites. There's favorites. Oh, so politics, politics. But I will also say I'm not blaming this on anybody else. I also was 21 and perhaps, you know, not very mature and like taking things as seriously as, as I think I would now, you know? So it became, I got really discouraged. So I did the conservatory. I finished that in a year, which I was, yeah. So I didn't have to repeat anything, which I was like, again, I was like, Ooh, like, great, good for me.
3 (44m 55s):
I kind of wish I was made to repeat some things. Maybe. I don't know, because then my ego, I was like, right. I was like, I finished the conservatory without having to repeat anything. I should be on Torco. I should be on the boats. I should, whatever. And I just didn't have very good auditions for the generals because I get very nervous. And again, I truly think I was very young and you know, with time comes wisdom. But like at the time I was just like, stupid, stupid, bad. You're bad. Like you didn't get it right away. Therefore you're bad. And it's just like, that's just not how it goes.
3 (45m 36s):
That is not, I, no one else believed that anyone listening do not believe that.
2 (45m 41s):
Yes. Right. Right. Well, you may have been immature in that way at that time, but at the same time, your understanding about what you just said about maybe you're not leading dramatic actor in the Dick Wolf universe, that requires a huge degree of self-awareness. How much, or how little did the college experience put you in a position to understand who you were?
3 (46m 7s):
Yeah. I mean, I absolutely love Columbia. I think they did such a beautiful job of preparing all of us for what it's really like. I mean, I'm telling you, like, that's why, like I, I left the gates, like just like running. Cause we had Barbara Robertson, if you know, Barbara, she had like a senior survival class where like we do mock auditions. We do mock call that, you know, interviews. And it was just so helpful because you could say, okay, you know what I like for me, I love musicals, but I'm not a singer.
3 (46m 48s):
And so like quickly, I was like, ah, like watching the other musical theater people going, ah, I could do it a little bit, but not to the extent that needs, it needs to be done. And it was just like, like college was like, the conservatory is such a comfy environment to realize those things, you know, like there was so many people being like that's okay, because
1 (47m 13s):
You're way younger than we are. What year did. Cause this sounds like the greatest school ever.
3 (47m 17s):
And what year were you there? I was there. I, I was started fall of 2009 and then I graduated a semester early. So I was, I December of 2012, but, but basically 2013 is
1 (47m 36s):
Great. So just recent. I just want to, it sounds like Columbia has really stepped up in terms of, of preparing the students for graduation, which I want to say Bravo. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.
2 (47m 55s):
Okay. So when you decided to move back to LA, what was your, what was your intention? How did you see that this next chapter going and, and how, how is that going? Is it is actually sort of going the way you,
3 (48m 13s):
It is in some ways it definitely is in some ways. And then other ways it's like, oh, it's tough. So it's funny. I, I wrote a web series kind of pilot thing with my friends in 2018 and we crowdfunded and then we made it and then we had meetings for it. Like we were shopping it and it was such a, I was like, wow, like I could do this. Like I could, I could write my own stuff and act in my own stuff and look at like, this is my first thing. And I'm already taking meetings. I should go and do that. And so when I moved out here, it's so funny.
3 (48m 55s):
Cause I was like, I think LA is just going to like me better. Like I think LA is just like, cause I'm from there, like they have comedy, like it's just going to be my place. And I have to say, I don't think that's necessarily incorrect. I've gotten a lot of really cool opportunities since being out here. I would say like the acting stuff has been the toughest at that has been the hardest nut to crack because I'm really struggling to find like an agent out here, even with like all, you know, all of this stuff on the resume, it's just a bigger pool. And so, so that was not surprising.
3 (49m 37s):
I knew it wasn't going to be easy, but I think in terms of like my writing and my voiceover work, that's been great. That's been like, I got it. We're hustling feeling good. Wait. So
1 (49m 49s):
For, for those people, I mean, you, I don't know if you could talk about it, but you're the voice. One of the voices on one jury. Right. Are you still doing that? No.
3 (49m 58s):
Okay.
1 (49m 59s):
Are you able to talk about that? I didn't want to make, I don't want to start talking. Okay. Because you have a great voice and wonder is one of my favorite things of all times. So how did you land one dream and then
3 (50m 10s):
Yeah, the funny again, I love it. Funniest story. So I'm a huge fan of the podcast. My favorite murder because you know who isn't and I was, I was on a Facebook group called like, like my favorite murder, LA Merinos and this girl named Allie, she like posted being like, Hey, I work for Wondery, I'm looking for local voiceover talent to do like a few spots, like Bo bop. And so I jumped on it and I like Facebook messaged her. And I gave her my real, I gave her my demo reel and she booked me and it was like, she was, and she's so kind, I freaking love her, but that was, we started November, 2019 and it's still going and I work weekly.
3 (50m 59s):
Like I work all the time and
2 (51m 1s):
Love that. And I also love, because I know most of the marinas are female. I love the idea that it always gets proven over and over again is that whenever women kind of join together and view what they're doing as you know, a rising tide lifts all boats and you know, when somebody does something, it's a feather in all of our caps, like the more people can embrace that idea instead of the opposite, which is kind of how we're trained to be, which is, you know, call the competition and, you know, get everybody else out of your way. It is it's, it's completely unnecessary. What was the competition factor like at Columbia
3 (51m 38s):
Competition at Columbia? I have to say it was, it felt pretty easy breezy, you know? Cause we're not a conservatory, you know, necessarily it's like anyone can take whatever class and I mean, you know, obviously you have your concentration and you know, when you have a BFA, it's a little more, you have to take certain classes. But in the sense of like, I just, everyone was like very, in my experience, very loving and very like supportive. Obviously there was some tensions, I think a little bit more on like musical theater land because my, my, my roommate was in that world and yeah.
3 (52m 19s):
And, but still they were still all friends and it was what it was. But yeah, I, I just don't really have any memories of like really being like pissed or like being like, oh, I got to get it over, blah, blah, blah. It was kind of like you auditioned, it happened if it happened and maybe that's just me.
2 (52m 42s):
Oh, it could be. I mean, it could be, you just bring that energy to things you do at Columbia. How does it work? I mean, so our, our frame of references, every term you're in the show and you just do a, an audition kind of, I mean, you, you audition for the individual shows, but there's, it's almost like a casting. I mean, it is, it's a casting pool. You audition generally speaking. And then the directors, you know, talk it out for who they want to cast, but how did it work at Columbia? Did you do a show? Every,
3 (53m 14s):
I did not do a show, like a show show every term I'm trying to remember. It wasn't like that. Like were like you, you auditioned and then they kind of picked it's like you audition for each individual show. What was cool was there were the directing majors that had kind of their different levels of shows. So they would do like one acts. And then like when they were older, you know, would do a full play or yada yada. And so there was a lot of opportunity. It wasn't just like the four main, big shows. And maybe that's why it felt like it wasn't too much of a competition because there were those directing shows as well.
3 (53m 56s):
And so I don't know, I, I didn't do a show, a term. I did at least one big one a year and then like little stuff all year round, you know, like be at a one act, be it like we had like 24 hour play festival, you know, like fun stuff like that as well. But
1 (54m 17s):
I feel like, I feel like that Columbia has the sense of, and maybe I'm just making this up in my head, but like of being like the scrappier version of a conservatory, like w and that was my experience because we used to hang out at the Merle reskin, doing our shows right around from where Columbia was. And so we, and I always, and, and people would poopoo Columbia, but I always often was like, oh, they actually seem like they're working. Like, I don't know what they're doing, but they're like living their lives. And it's like the scrappy city school. And from what I hear, like, there's less, maybe it's maybe it is about you.
1 (54m 59s):
Maybe you don't breathe it. No, I'm like, maybe you don't breed. Like that's not your jam is the competition weirdness vibe, which is great. But like I did for the most part here that it wasn't as cutthroat fame, like as a DePaul and some of the other conservatories that we've talked to. And I'm wondering also if that has to do with the fact that I'm a huge proponent of this, of the teachers being, working artists all the time. Right? Like that is the thing, when your instructors are doing the thing you want to do, I think they become more peer, like, meaning they can say, Hey, dude, do this. And then you'll succeed.
1 (55m 39s):
Did you, did you keep, did you love your teachers? Did you keep in touch with your teachers or your classmates? How,
3 (55m 45s):
Oh, yeah. I mean, and I will say one of the things when I first decided to go to Columbia, I'm not going to lie at first. I was like, this is not the school experience I wanted. Like, I wanted that like TV university, like enclosed campus, which is why I had applied to Northwestern. So I'm not going to lie at first. I was kind of bummed because I was like, this is, this is a city school where it's also like, you're dropped in and you're like, you're an adult, you're an artist do it. But I think that's why at, in the end, I'm so grateful for it because it was right off the bat. Like I'm going to rip the bandaid off.
3 (56m 26s):
This is how it goes. Be prepared, be ready if you're not that's on you. Like, and it was pretty cool, but I loved all of my teachers, every single one of them, Jeff Ginsburg, I think he's, I think he retired recently, but like, he wrote my letter of recommendation for grad school last year. And like, he like sent it to me and I was like in tears. Cause I was just like, oh my God, he spoke so highly of me, like friends, like friends. And also they would be like, Hey, there's this thing like go to this call. You'd be perfect for it. Sit there, wait for it. It doesn't matter how long it takes. You're good for it. Like go.
3 (57m 6s):
Yeah. And so it, it was absolutely like, now that I'm thinking back on it, like it seriously was like, it was so cool because it was just immediately like we're actors do it
1 (57m 18s):
Immediately about the work, which is what it needs to always be. So you're going to grad school.
3 (57m 23s):
Well, we'll see, I am awaiting results. So I applied, what are you trying to do? Where are you trying to, so me being an overachiever, I applied to USC, NYU and UCLA for screenwriting. So, so we'll see, Jen helped me with my essays because she's an angel,
1 (57m 46s):
You know what I, I love they were great. And also I just realized that what happens to me is when I help people with their stuff, it makes me want to go to grad school there. So then after I help you, I'm like researching all the shit, but your essays were great. And I guess my question that I probably have asked you this off, you know, when we were just meeting, but I'll ask you on the record. Like why, why grad school? Why, why screenwriting grad school?
3 (58m 15s):
Well, going back to my thing of like, I'm such an overachiever, I'm such like, I need to be the best. Like I need, I taught myself screenwriting, you know, from the sketch writing that I learned at second city. And then, you know, I've kind of been stumbling, fumbling, figuring it out on my own, which has been great and totally fine. And I must say like, not too bad, but there's the element of, I kind of want somebody besides like my husband and my mom to be like, this is great because they can't offer me like how to fix it.
3 (58m 56s):
You know, they're just kinda like, I don't know. It's cute. And so I, I'm kind of a masochist in that way where I'm like, I want somebody to be like, this is shit. And this is what you need to do to fix it. I don't know. But I also have that thing, like I was saying, like, I always wanted that university experience that I didn't get at Columbia. And so that's a little part of it too, was I was like, if I'm going to go back to school, I should probably, you know, do that, like go to like one of those schools that has a campus that like that and whatnot. So, but really it's just to learn. It's just really to like solidify the craft. We'll see.
2 (59m 33s):
Yeah. And not to mention, I mean, you know, everybody has to do some form of, I don't really mean to call it, pay to play, but I can't, I can't think of another term right now, but when I spend a lot of time talking about all the cottage industry that is the 1 million groups or programs or whatever that say the promise to get you to the next level in your career, if you're going to do that, which every, almost everybody has to, you might as well do it at an accredited university where you're going to be making connections with people who actually could hire you down the road, as opposed to somebody just saying like, Hmm, take our formatting class for
3 (1h 0m 14s):
100%. Yeah. Cause my, my boss right now was kind of saying that she was like, well, why, you know, you don't need to spend all this money, go take this class. And I'm like, but that class is still quite a bit of money. So I don't know, like, we'll see, I'm, I'm kind of at that place of like, I put a lot out there and then we'll see what happens and I'll cross that bridge when it, when it comes. But I'm trying to let go of the results you guys. And it is For everything, you know, like that's so
1 (1h 0m 46s):
I guess my next question that comes to mind is why writing and why specifically itself, like television is your jam, right? It's television. Okay. So why, what is it about, about television? Cause you're, I think you're our first real television writer that we've, I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, like tell me about, cause I'm just curious about how, why the medium of television and what do you hope to like do with your television writing in terms of changing the industry? Or what is your jam? Well,
3 (1h 1m 22s):
What I love about TV, I mean, like I grew up a latchkey kid where like TV was my friend. Like my mom was never home. My dad, you know? And so like I would sit at home and watch Laverne and Shirley and I love Lucy and flying nun, you know? And what I loved about it was that they, I could come back to them. So it wasn't just like a movie. There's that one story, my friend, that's my friends over there, like done TV. I could keep coming back and keep like seeing how their lives were unfolding. And I just think that's really cool because it's like, we get this like sneak peek into somebody's life.
3 (1h 2m 3s):
Right. Like stepping into somebody's shoes and just like, I dunno, like especially characters that are not like us. We can go. I just think that like, we get a little bit more compassion, a little bit more empathetic to like, oh, I can watch what your life is like and maybe understand you a little bit better. You know? And so for me, I love to write like female anti-heroes like, because as somebody like I'm sober and that's been like a very big journey for me. And as I was getting sober all the time, I was just like, I just wish you guys could see me when I'm alone and understand me and my like when I'm struggling and blah, blah, blah.
3 (1h 2m 49s):
And I feel like with TV, we can do that. Like obviously we can do that in movies as well, but I think TV gives us the time to really, really be grounded in it. You know what I mean?
2 (1h 3m 3s):
Yeah. I mean, you're really no bones about it. Developing relationships with characters over, in some cases, years long tracks. I mean, that's, it's not, it's not hard to understand why you would have that affinity. How, how does I've I've heard it said where people who were working in the industry, like working their way up, I've heard, it said a couple of different ways. I've heard it said, oh yes, making these connections. And then you just kind of are moving up the ladder. That's the way to go. And I've heard it said, I'm so good at my job that nobody ever wants me to do anything. But this one thing that I really don't want to do, but I'm just doing so I can do the thing that I want to do.
2 (1h 3m 45s):
W w where do you feel?
3 (1h 3m 47s):
I think luckily I'm kind of in the middle of that. I think like right now I'm an assistant and I'm a good assistant, but I'm not a great assistant. Probably. I do think that working your way up the ladder is, I mean, that's just the way it is in LA. Like when I first moved out here, I w I got an office PA job. And through that, I met all of these people. And through that, I met, you know, like that office PA job led me to the APRC, who then worked on another show. And then I went on that show and I met the show runner, and he really liked me. And I became a showrunner's assistant. And, you know, so it is about connections, but I think there's a delicate balance of explaining what you are wanting.
3 (1h 4m 36s):
You know, I think a lot of times people are like, you can't tell them that you want to be a writer or you can't tell them, blah, blah, blah. And I understand that like, from the jump, right, like don't say it in your interview and whatever, but I do think it does need to be said and known like, my boss is fantastic. She knew that I wanted to be a writer before she hired me, but she's always checking on me. Like, how has your scripts, you know, like, what are you working on? And we're waiting for her. She might be doing a new project or whatever. And so we're waiting to see, and then she's like, well, I'll bring you up with me if the opportunity happens.
3 (1h 5m 19s):
Right. But I'm still her assistant. Like I still do my job,
1 (1h 5m 23s):
So, right. I mean, I think LA is so weird in that way. And that, like, I was just thinking, like, when I got hired by Nick cage, I couldn't tell him I was an actor. But so his people told me not to say that. And so, because of whatever. And so like, we ended up talking about how I was working as the secretary at the Catholic church, rector inner check Catholic church rectory. And that's what he focused in on, which had a job. Gina got me later years later, he was like, why didn't you ever tell me you were an actor? Oh, boss, you never told me that. I didn't know that he said that to you. Like, what did you say?
1 (1h 6m 3s):
I like, probably turned bright red. I said, I told the truth. I said, you're your team? Which was like 10 people told me to take it off my resume. He goes, what? And I was like, I, it, it just does it. It's sort of like the thing we think is gonna, is gonna ruin or make us is never the thing. So, and so he, who knows what would have happened. Like, look, if I had gone into the initial interview and said, I'm an actor, he might not have hired me. However, if it had been on the thing, he might've said, oh, well, maybe there's a part for you down the line. And then thought of me. He was a producer.
1 (1h 6m 43s):
It didn't make any sense, but they told me, take it off. You have to. So I literally at that was back in the day where you had white out, I won't get off and then faxed it. I'm not shitting you from my home fax machine and faxed it to them without the acting on it. This is so LA is like the weirdest fucking place. Now. I'm glad that my life was what it was, but that's weird. And then the other thing that you made me think of Jenna was this idea of there is a fine line in this town. And I think you do a really good job of this. And so do I, of being a kind and genuine person and also asking for what we want.
1 (1h 7m 28s):
It's very tricky for women to do this. We're made to play these weird games where it's like, okay, like I'm not going to be too assertive and be like, I want to work for you as a, as your writer, you, I want to be in your writer's room. So instead saying things like, Hey, if there's ever a spot for me, like I'm totally willing to be of service, which is not a terrible way to say something. It's just that men get away with being like, oh, you're going to hire me one day. Like I want to be in your room one day and they're fine. So you really good. And I think all three of us are really good at sort of saucing out women. I know are sussing out where the person stands and trying to sell ourselves without selling ourselves.
1 (1h 8m 14s):
And that is, but it's also a really good skill to have because we know how to read a room, which is why we find your boss is probably like, Hey Jenna, I will take you with me. You're a team player. You still do your job. And I know you're a phenomenal writer, but it's, it's always like finagling.
3 (1h 8m 32s):
It's so interesting. Cause it's like what I tend to do too. And maybe this is good advice and maybe, I don't know, but like I, cause I genuinely want to know, like I would be like, Hey, I'm interested in writing. What do you suggest? Like, what do you like, what should I do? What do you think I should do to like, kind of like get me there. So then it's out of like what you want, but you're not asking them to do anything for you specifically. You're asking for advice, you know? And I think that's really good, especially when he moved to new place to ask for advice because you don't know what's going on. Like,
1 (1h 9m 8s):
And I think part of it is, you know, being in an all three of us are sort of in this self-helpy world. And I won't say more than that, but that, that we are good at like asking for, for feedback or like inviting people into a process in a sort of more community way versus like, you know, so, so we are able to, yeah, just not be weird about, so like it comes down to like a lot of advice. People say, when you're meeting with managers, show runners, don't be weird, which is like, I get exactly what they're saying, but for someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're doing, that's a weird, that's a weird piece of advice because what does that mean?
1 (1h 9m 55s):
But I think the three of us kind of get what that means. You don't want to be an asshole. You don't want to be desperate. You don't want to be all the things, but like it's a skill you learn because I don't know. It's hard. It's hard. So I, my, the other thing that I'm learning is like literally asking the one thing that, and I know, I don't know where I learned this. Maybe it was my mother that always ask for an informational interview where there are no strings attached where you're literally getting data from somebody. It has opened so many doors with show rudders. I cannot tell you, I don't know if it'll lead anywhere. I don't, but it has opened the door to get the data.
1 (1h 10m 36s):
And, and for me to genuinely tell that person I'm interested in what you have to say, because like you said, Jetta, I want to do what you're doing. Or I'm curious, curious, curious about stuff versus can you hire me right now? Well, you know what I mean?
3 (1h 10m 54s):
I think that's something though. I learned from the Chicago community, like definitely Columbia as well is to be prepared. Like if you're going to be asking someone for something or if you're going for something, be as prepared as you can so that when the opportunity arises,
1 (1h 11m 13s):
You're for it, you know? And that was such a big thing at Columbia. So good. That does not happen in Los Angeles. Let me tell you something. People are not ready. So like it, people, I have friends that are, that are like younger and in this business and, or my students and they're like, Hey, this person like said they wanted to meet with me, but they can't really mean that. Do they? And I'm like, when did this happen though? Like two weeks ago. I'm like, oh man, yes, they want to meet with you. Write the email back. What are you doing? I mean, I've done the same shit.
1 (1h 11m 53s):
I've done the same shit, but I, you can't, you gotta be ready for when the opportunity comes. I think you're right. Yeah.
2 (1h 12m 4s):
I appreciate your compliment. That you're including me as somebody who knows how to read the situation. I, I disagree. I don't think I know how to read the situation. I'm because I have like two speeds, which is never tell you anything about myself and never make you feel in any way, beholden to me for any reason whatsoever. Or can I have a job? Will you please give me a job? I don't feel like I re I mean, not really that I'm being cheeky, but like, it is hard and it LA or entertainment, I'll say, I don't know any other profession that has this many unspoken rules. Right? You know, you want a job in finance. You go to this school, you see this person, you play this sport.
2 (1h 12m 47s):
Then you have your job in finance and you ask for what you want. You may not get it, but it's, it's all, I'm not saying it's all transparent. Cause I know it's not, but it's so much, this is so murky. This entertainment thing is so murky. And you're just like guessing all the time about what
1 (1h 13m 4s):
It's like. It's like totally. Right. And I feel like it is even the rules of like, would they ask for emerging writers to apply to something? Okay. And so then I applied and I've applied and it turns out everyone who gets the thing has already been stabbed and has it had, has representatives. And I'm like, wait, this, this is, this is a lie. So you learn that like emerging, even words mean different things here. So emerging just basically means it can mean anything, but it's not true newbie. So like they don't want newbies. And so like, I thought it was a value that I was a newbie in this one way.
1 (1h 13m 46s):
And they were like, no, no, no, actually we want someone that has some experience in it has staffed once. And I'm like, well, that's not me. I, I I'd like below a new, like funny. It's like, you're right. Gina, the L the there's all kinds of weirdness and like navigating a system. That's just super vague.
2 (1h 14m 9s):
Jenna, if you get, if your current boss gets the new opportunity and you go with her and you get accepted to grad school, what are you going to do?
3 (1h 14m 20s):
Truly, I think what I would do is I would go with my boss because that's, and also she has said like, you know, the, the opportunity I will learn from it, you know? And, and I think she'll being in the room. I will learn what I need to learn. And I, I'm pretty quick at picking things up anyway. So I think it'll be good. We're supposed to find out this week. Oh, so
1 (1h 14m 53s):
That's the other thing the waiting in this business is bonkers.
3 (1h 14m 56s):
It is honestly, you know, like when you, when you audition for something, you know, then there's callbacks director sessions, whatever, but there's still like a little bit of quickness right. With this. I think we've been doing this since August. Like, it's just like somebody help, like somebody tell me, I can't imagine how she feels. Honestly.
2 (1h 15m 20s):
Now I'm certain that this is not going to happen, but in the very, very rare case that you, she, you, she doesn't get that job and you don't get into grad school or what are you going to,
3 (1h 15m 29s):
Because honestly, I just have to keep writing. I'm just going to keep writing. And I'm at the Groundlings right now. I, I did their core classes. I'm waiting to get into their writing lab and I'm just gonna keep trekking along, you know, because it's like, I've tried to not do this stuff before. Like, I've tried to have like, quote unquote, normal job, whatever. And I'm just not interested. I would rather be doing this. And, you know, I think Jen, I described it, my UCLA essay. It's like, I feel like it's a rollercoaster where I'm just like chunk, chunk, chugging along, you know, you're going up the hill and right. As you're about to go over that hump, you know, like sometimes you slide back down and it's so frustrating, but I'd rather try and keep getting over that hill then like get off the ride altogether.
3 (1h 16m 21s):
So, yeah. So that's that, you know, I've got a few
1 (1h 16m 25s):
That's fantastic. And the other thing I just want to say is like you guys, while you're talking, I'm thinking also about the everyone that I came up with in Hollywood, my first go round, they all like ended up running studios and things. So that the thing is true to keep. And here's the thing. Like I had the opportunity to, to go into development at his company. And I was like, oh no, I just want to like, answer the phone and like, like eat cookies at my desk. Like I could have. And I, it's not that I'm kicking myself. But what I am saying is will they always say like, keep a group around you of like-minded people that are headed in the direction you are headed, because you all, like Gina was saying, you all rise together.
1 (1h 17m 12s):
It is the truth. It's not even like something people say I'm looking around. What are the people that I came up with brand Fox for a while, one of them. And so it's just, it's staying the course, if that's the course that you're supposed to be on, stay with it because people will, will bring you along. Like your boss was saying, you will find people that will do that. And now I needed to go deviate, do a million other things apparently and deal with a lot of shit. But the point is that I think community is possible. And also there are, I guess, I'm to what I'm taking away from this too today is like, there are good people that will bring you along and help. And it's a matter of like sticking.
1 (1h 17m 54s):
Yeah.
3 (1h 17m 55s):
Well, and finding the ones that, like you're saying, like, that really do like vibe with you because I've worked with plenty of people that know, like, it's just, it's not a right fit. It's like dating, you know, it's just like, we don't see eye to eye and we can try and force it, but it's not cute. It's not fun. And nothing good is going to come out of it creatively or, you know, Hey. Yeah. Like it's, cause there's so many different types of people, especially here in LA. What's really funny is, and I think Jen you've said this before, but it's like, I find myself gravitating towards like so many Midwest people, either they're Chicago people or they grew up in the Midwest. I don't know.
3 (1h 18m 35s):
Maybe. Cause we're nice. But it's funny. Like you do find your,
1 (1h 18m 40s):
Like you find your people. And also I'm finding my people in ways. I never thought that I would in terms of right. Who's an ally. Right. So I always assumed if someone looks like me and they were whatever, we were kind of similar, they were going to be my ally. That's not necessarily true. So like, I've been like, oh, they're Latinos. They're gonna love me. No, no, ma'am no ma'am, that is not. So I, you find them in ways that you don't think like, but I do gravitate towards Midwesterners, but I also thought that like, oh my God, this person and I are going to be best friends. It's just like anything in life. I'm like, they're going to help me launch my career to the next level.
1 (1h 19m 23s):
And really it's been helpers from over here. Literally two of the showrunners that I've met have been through my fucking husband was nothing to do. He juggled with one of them in juggling club and then they did it well. Yeah. And then he, he became best friends with the show runner, Terry Shafer. And then, and then the other one was someone in his men's group. So like you just don't and then my husband doesn't give a shit about any of this. So you don't know, but you find we'll find our peeps. We're finding our peeps, you know, stay for the miracle. People stay for the American .
1 (1h 20m 5s):
Whereas my husband likes to say, don't leave. It gets greater later. <em></em>
2 (1h 20m 25s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <em></em> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina <em></em> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.