00:00 Susie Cross Welcome to the "Sound on Sound Recording & Mixing podcast channel. My name's Susie Cross. In this episode, we'll hear from Marcus Leadley, author of "Field Recording: A Practical Guide," which was published in 2026 by the Crowood Press. [music] Marcus is a field recordist, sound artist and academic. He teaches field recording and experimental sound at Goldsmiths University of London, where he's head of the Electronic Music Studios. And privately, he teaches adult learners through online classes and in-person field trips. Marcus has an MMus in studio-based composition, a PhD in sonic art and over 40 years of practical field recording experience. I'm delighted to welcome Marcus. Marcus Leadley Hello. 00:47 Susie Cross So I've just finished reading your book, and what struck me is how comprehensive it is. It feels like a complete introduction to field recording for somebody just starting out. But there's also plenty of things in there for somebody like me who's been field recording for about 20 years. So I thought maybe a good place to start would be right at the beginning and ask you, what drew you to want to write a book about field recording? Marcus Leadley Gosh. Well, field recording is something that I've been involved in, greater or lesser extent, for a very long time. But it really came into focus around 2006 as a result of going back as an adult learner to do the master's, and that sort of opened up a whole new raft of options really, for using field recording in composition and things like that, and also just the joy of being back out in nature recording. So that really very much got me kind of started on a particular path that led into teaching and things like that. By background, I've spent a lot of time as both a journalist and a magazine editor, so the idea of writing a book was kind of there. I've been developing teaching materials, so I had quite a lot of content developed over the years. And pragmatically, it was when Crowood approached me first in 2022 about the idea of possibly putting a book together, because they'd observed that there wasn't really a contemporary current text on the subject. The last one by Frank Darity kind of went out of print in about 2003, so there was a gap in the market. And I was very happy to sort of step in, and it's something that now has become... I've just given over all my new reading lists to the course for Goldsmiths, so it's become the course textbook effectively, as well as being deliberately aimed at the enthusiast. It's not an academic text and it's not a textbook, it is a practical guide, so it does cover everything from equipment choice through to techniques and history. So hopefully it's a good read as well as being something useful. 03:04 Susie Cross Yeah, and it surely is a good read. I found lots of it really fascinating. So, how did your background bring you to this point? Marcus Leadley Oh gosh. Well, my first proper job I think, if you can call a YTS scheme in the early 1980s a proper job, was actually managing a hospital and community radio station. They managed to work with the local authority to get funding and I spent 18 months broadcasting news and current affairs, recording local celebrities. And one of the things we did was go out and do a series on the local field studies center with the very excellent Tony Harmon. This was down in Canterbury. And that got me out with the studio's kind of tape recorders, and we were recording birds and pond life and all this sort of thing, and that really kind of set me on a particular track. I didn't go into radio journalism or specifically become a field recordist at that point, but having a tape recorder and going out and recording the environment around me became a very significant kind of hobby base. And also as a journalist, I did an awful lot of interviews. I'm very familiar with the recording process. And that kind of rolled on, as I say, until I sort of got back into creative practice in a bigger way in the early 2000s. And then it's just become more and more significant over time. 04:37 Susie Cross So, it sounds like there was different reasons or different things that you were trying to record when you first started out in field recording. What was the most interesting sounds to you at that time? Marcus Leadley I think wildlife, in the first place. I wouldn't pretend to be an expert in birds or wildlife generally, but just being able to capture those sounds was quite extraordinary. I mean, certainly even in the 1980s when I first began to do it, it wasn't something... there were plenty of photographers around, but there really were not many phonographers. And so it was just a fascinating thing that I also played music and things as well. I was a guitar player more back in the day. So, the whole world of recording fascinated me and so the natural world naturally kind of found a space in my interests. 05:36 Susie Cross So I guess you'd be using more sorts of traditional microphones at that time for recording wildlife? Marcus Leadley Initially, yes. Yeah. Condenser and dynamic microphones especially were still very much what you were plugging into tape recorders. And for loud sounds, dynamic mics are great if you want to record engines or trains or something like that. If you listen back to any of the great recordings by people like Atwood from the 1960s, it's all dynamic microphones. But there are just so many other tools you learn about. You start getting into the use of shotgun microphones and different forms of spaced pairs and things like that. And you begin to hear the different image that these can create and how some things are better for certain things than others. And I very much sort of explored those options and then gradually became aware of the agenda that I've kind of separated out in the book, which I refer to as just basically a hidden sounds agenda, where you need either specialist microphones or devices to actually be able to even hear these sounds, sounds from underwater or electromagnetic sound, converting electromagnetism into an audible form or sound above or below human hearing. And in these realms, there are just some fascinating sounds that tickle the ears and make you wonder what on earth it is you're hearing. 07:05 Susie Cross That really surely is the case. And hidden sounds is something I'm particularly interested in for my own artistic practice, and I think the range of microphones and detectors we have now that we can apply in the field have really opened up that hidden realm of sound. Marcus Leadley Yeah. There's been a massive expansion in available tools in about the last 15 years, also linked with sort of falling costs. I mean, hydrophones, for example, used to be extraordinarily expensive because they were only scientific instruments. And then we've had a whole new generation of what are essentially started out as cottage industries. People like Jez riley French, who started making microphones for his friends, and this turned into a small business, and he makes contact mics and hydrophones at very reasonable prices, and everybody uses them. And this has been iterated through all sorts of small companies. In terms of a relevance to "Sound on Sound," it's a little bit like what happened with guitar pickup manufacturers in late '90s and early 2000s, because you can make things on a bench. So it's possible to have a sort of shed-based industry. You don't need a big factory. So, that's been really good for the sort of field recording community because we have all these extra tools at not expensive prices. 08:30 Susie Cross Absolutely, and that makes things really accessible for people, doesn't it? Marcus Leadley Yeah. It opens the world up... Susie Cross ... of who can do this. Marcus Leadley Precisely, yeah. 08:38 Susie Cross Yeah, so I think a burning question for me is, well, what is your favourite microphone or detector that enables you to hear hidden worlds? Marcus Leadley Well, I don't know if I have one because they all do so many different things. I've discovered a particular fondness for recording bats because all bats use echolocation, both in their general maneuvering through the world, but also in finding their dinner, the flying insects. And they can actually, through these clicks and sounds they make, actually sort of find a mosquito flying through the air. I mean, it's extraordinary faculty that they have. And of course, all of these sounds happen above the range of human hearing, or in some cases, some people can hear them. Very young children can hear them. I used to take my kids out with the bat detector, and I'd put the bat detector on, and I'd say, "Listen to that sound." And then they said, "But Dad, we can hear it anyway." Because we lose our top-end hearing very, very early on, by the age of about 15, in fact. And we can't hear those things, but they could still hear the bats, which I found fascinating. But the bat detectors enable me to hear what's going on, and all bats have a slightly different frequency, slightly different call. It's kind of how you identify them. And it's an extraordinary sound, and you can just listen to it for what it is, or it very naturally becomes something that seems to have a place in sort of compositional practice as well. Susie Cross Wonderful. Well, maybe we could play some of those sounds for our audience. Marcus Leadley Yeah, alright. Well, I will do that. I will play some bat recordings. This is the common pipistrelle. It's one of the more known bats in this. And just to put this into context, I'm standing in a small lane in rural Kent, and basically there are two pipistrelles hunting their dinner. I'm standing in the middle, and they're just flying around me. And this is a stereo bat detector, which I much prefer over the mono ones, because with mono ones, you can tell there are bats in the neighborhood. With a stereo one, you can actually sense exactly where they are, which is far more interesting. Their flight paths are extraordinary. So what's happening here is they're literally flying around me. They're ignoring me totally. I'm just another object in their world. It's kind of different from birds. Birds just do tend to fly away. Bats just treat you as though you're just another thing. So they're not scared of you in the same way that perhaps birds have learned to be. So, this is me standing in the middle of two bats hunting their dinner. The clip's about three minutes. I won't play all of it, but I'll give you a good minute or two. So here we go. [bat sounds] So there we are, about a minute and a bit of common pipistrelles flying around my head. I mean, it's a vocalisation, and they're having a fine time catching their dinner. And similarly, if you go out into roosts, the cacophony is extraordinary. This is nice because it's so focused and you get this real sense of motion. I mean, one thing worth saying is that heterodyne bat detectors by nature have a lot of background noise, so this did have to be denoised to actually get it to that level of clarity. 13:04 Susie Cross And what tools are you using for that denoising? Marcus Leadley That's iZotope, which is very much an industry standard. It's a great software. I mean, there are other versions out there of things that you can use, but this delivers really nicely, as well as literally all you have to do is basically have a section of the noise where there is no other sound, train the software on that sound, and then basically apply it to the whole file and it will remove all of the background noise. I mean, you do have to be careful because some of those frequencies will be present in the sound you want to preserve, so you may not want to apply it 100%. But with a bit of careful manipulation, you can get very good results. I mean, it's also very useful in a creative sense. I use it quite a lot for separating high frequency sounds from low frequency sounds. So if you're working with electromagnetic sound, that I'm sure we'll discuss in a while, you can literally train it on the high frequencies and strip those out, and then you can then train it on the low frequencies and strip those out so you can get separated tones from mixed audio files quite easily, which gives you just loads more material for working with the sound later. 14:25 Susie Cross Amazing. And how are you working with those sounds? Are you weaving them into compositions? Marcus Leadley Yes, both. I mean, there is such a rich history of working with environmental sound in various different ways in composition. I mean, it's a massive area. There is the school of thought that says, if you've got an absolutely pristine recording that you can sit down and listen to as though it is a piece of music, it is effectively a composition. And so it's a question of the attention and the focus. And then there's all the various versions where you're taking those materials and you're changing them into something different, either going from a point of familiarity through a transitional experience into a realm of pure sonics and then back out again, or simply taking field recordings and processing them to actually give you interesting sounds for use in composition. And this is something I find very much in both my private teaching to adults and also at college. For a long time, we were very much stuck in the box, in the computer, and people were using sounds that everybody had access to. Whereas we've kind of moved beyond that, back into a world where people have realised that you kind of have to craft sound to get originality. So, starting from the point of view of actually going out with a microphone still has this sort of massively valid thing to do. 16:03 Susie Cross Yeah, absolutely. And there was a section in your book where you were talking about the creative decision-making that's already happening through listening and monitoring, position and perspective, listening through the microphones as an active participant when you're in the field, not just later when you're composing. Marcus Leadley Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I do stress is that if you've set up your equipment and you're doing some field recording, the primary reason for monitoring initially is to make sure that, one, you've got a good sound image, so everything's clear. And it's like in the studio, to get the sound you want, you move the microphones around in front of sounding objects until they sound the way you want them to do. It's similar in the field. When you listen through your headphones in the field with the microphones, you suddenly realise that there's a very noisy bunch of cicadas hanging out in a hedge a bit too close to where you are, so you move the microphone five or six feet in another direction to create a better natural balance. So, that's one of the tricks that people tend to overlook. They find somewhere, they set up. The important thing is to monitor through the headphones to actually get the sound you want recorded. You might want to raise or lower the microphones for some reason, just a question of perspective. Because the way human hearing works, the tonal shift that you get in your ear tells you where things are in relation to height. So, if you've got your microphones on the floor, it's going to sound like you're recording on the floor. Similarly, if you've got them right up in the tops of the trees, that will be apparent because we extrapolate these things from our hearing. Hearing is, when you dig into it, an incredible faculty. So, that's one of the reasons. Also, you do it to make sure there are no problems with noisy cables or microphone distortion or all of these things. That's the first reason you do monitoring. And beyond that, it may not be advantageous to keep monitoring. You may want to step away, especially if you're doing nature recordings, because it takes a while for the environment to settle back to not having your presence in it. So you may want to retreat to a good distance. So just sitting there listening to the sound may not do you any favours. But there's also the sort of creative thing where you're using those monitors to very much kind of decide what's happening in terms of the content, so that when you're recording, you're making plans about how you're going to use it in composition. The artist Christina Kubisch is very good at this. She'll work with dual electromagnetic sensors so that she will literally play the microphone for a surface in order to create spatial movement and things like that. So a lot of her sounds are generated in the first instance. Studio practice is great, but it doesn't have the naturalness or the immediacy of gesture. So with some, especially the hidden sounds, you may find that you really want to be listening in order to make plans and create particular tones as well. 19:25 Susie Cross You just mentioned electromagnetic frequencies there. And of course, there's a whole range of detectors now that we can... microphones we can use to listen to that. Have you got any examples that you could play for us? Marcus Leadley Yeah, absolutely. I do. Firstly, let me say, as you say, there's a whole raft of tools, the cheapest of which cost about two or three pounds, and they're the repurposed... Anyone listening who's a little bit older may remember the old analog telephone headset bugs that you'd stick on the back of a headset of a telephone to record a conversation. And they work through Faraday's law. It's a closed coil of wire, so basically it's got lots and lots of turns of wire attached to an input plug on a recorder. And if you bring a closed coil of wire into a magnetic or electromagnetic field, an electrical current will be generated in the closed coil. And that can be turned into something that can be recorded by a field recording device and can be turned into sound. So, that's a conversion process. But our world is absolutely bathed in electromagnetic radiation. All of the devices we have give it off. So literally just waving one of these bug pickups over your computer workstation will release an extraordinary world of sound, much of which, especially because of contemporary computer technology, is iterative. So a lot of it's cyclic, a lot of it sounds like proto-electronic music. And it's one of the things that gets people very excited in my classes, because a lot of people are looking for things to work with electronic music. So that's something there. So, I'll play some very simple sounds in a sec. The other thing to say is that companies like LOM have started releasing stereo versions of coil mics that enable you to pass them, get good stereo movement, et cetera. There are more developed units designed for getting it from out of the atmosphere. So for anyone who wants to explore that, LOM's got lots of great products, so has SOMA. So there are lots. But let's have a bit of a listen. The first one I will play is a cashpoint machine, cash machines. There's obviously loads of these on the high streets and they've been around for a long time now, so there are many different generations of them and they all sound completely different. I'm sure somebody out there has done a study and can probably identify machines by how they sound. I haven't gone quite to that depth. But this is a cash machine in Greenwich. So let's have a little bit of a listen to that. That is literally one of the low-cost units. I'm literally just waving it over the surface of the cash machine. And they sound completely different when you're taking money out of them and things like this. And curiously, I've recorded an awful lot of cash machines over the years, and nobody has ever come and questioned what I was doing, which I find quite surprising. I'd expect security from a bank to come out, but nope, nobody. I'm just there, just recording it, and left alone. One of my favourite locations are seaside amusement arcades, the older the better, with the more dysfunctional generations of equipment, which give off huge amounts of sound through electromagnetism. Far more interesting than putting two Ps onto a thing that eventually falls down. So this is a seaside amusement arcade. Let's play a little bit of this. Susie Cross Great. That's so fascinating. Marcus Leadley As I say, older the better. And just, again, you wander in with one of these gadgets and you just wander around. Nobody gives you any trouble. I mean, that's one of the nice things about the little ones. It's not much bigger than, what's it now? It's about the same size as a bottle top, those ones that I'm using there. So yeah, they look very harmless. A bit like a stethoscope at best for that sort of thing. 25:04 Susie Cross You spoke very briefly earlier about Jez riley French making his own microphones and one of the things I've got in my everyday field kit is some hydrophones made by JrF. Do you often use hydrophones yourself? Have you got any sounds you can play for us? Marcus Leadley Again, I mean, hydrophone, again, it's really important to stress with all of these hidden sounds, because they're hidden, you don't actually know what you're going to hear until you deploy the device. And that, for me, is part of the fun. So, I mean, sometimes you drop a hydrophone into a big body of water and it's as quiet as the grave. There's just nothing there. It's just like nothing at all. And another time you do it, and you suddenly get this kind of incredibly rich world. There's a great artist called Stephen Feld who has done lots of recordings around ponds and things like that. And one of the things that gets pointed out is the fact that when you're listening to marine insects and things like that, we often do not know what species we're listening to because this is not a well-documented environment. It really is like you're the first person to be listening to some of these things, potentially. So, underwater insects, I mean, they're mostly very quiet, so I haven't got any great recordings of those. But what I do have, for example, is boat recordings. And if you drop a hydrophone off the pier at the seaside, what you get is a really interesting soundscape because you get a lot of the airborne sound because it's transported into the water. You'll get the sounds of people splashing around in the surf. You can hear people swimming. You can hear the movement of them doing it. You can hear boats landing, but you can also hear very, very, very quietly off in the distance, low tones. And if you look right on the horizon, there's a tanker you can hardly even see. And the reason for this is that sound transmission through water is very, very efficient. So marine soundscapes can be very, very full and surprising. So you hear the sounds of boats. I mean, this one I'll play is literally a small motorboat on a harbour. So it's a very small engine, so you're getting rid of a lot of high frequency there, all mixed in with those kind of watery sounds. So that's a kind of interesting view of the world that you don't normally get. And I mean, if you have the opportunity to get into the right environments, I mean, obviously, I've had students in Australia who are able to get out on boats and record whale song and things like this. I had another person who was, I think, in Norway, who managed to actually do kind of marine invertebrate recordings, so lots of clicking and this sort of thing. So, it's there to be explored. And for anyone who's particularly interested in marine sounds, the artist Jana Winderen is really good at getting to unlikely places and recording fascinating audio. 29:18 Susie Cross Absolutely. I think what's really interesting with the hydrophone sounds that you just played, the boat, is it sounds so different from maybe what you might imagine it to sound like. Marcus Leadley Yeah, absolutely. Susie Cross And I think that's the thing about hidden sounds, like you were saying earlier, you don't always know what you're going to hear when you were to put a microphone onto something as well. Marcus Leadley Yeah, I mean, that's part of the excitement is you just don't know what you're going to hear until you put your headphones on. 29:47 Susie Cross How do you find that unpredictability in the field? Marcus Leadley Well, I mean, there's different sorts of unpredictability. There's the unpredictability of hearing something you don't expect, and then there's the unpredictability of things that kind of impinge on your ability to actually record things. Like, I recently went to a vintage car show because I thought, "Oh, it'll be great to record some sounds of old engines." And it was absolutely impossible because there was a kind of arena with people driving the cars in and the guy doing the commentary didn't shut up all day. So I really couldn't pick anything up with the open-air microphones. So what I did, of course, then was, with permission, sort of like, "Do you mind if I put a contact mic on that?" Because they don't pick up any of the kind of stuff coming through the air, so you just get the engine sounds. It's not quite the same, but that's part of that unpredictability issue, is knowing that there are potentially other tools you can swap to, to kind of deal with problems in the field. 30:52 Susie Cross How does your work flow, your artistic work flow then? Do you have really predetermined ideas about what you want to record, or do you allow some room for the unexpected to happen? Marcus Leadley I mean, it varies a lot, very much project to project. I mean, sometimes you have an agenda in terms of things you need to record. Jez riley French is a great exponent of this idea of just stepping out your front door and seeing what happens, which I really, really appreciate. It's a bit different to me. I tend to sort of pre-plan field trips and go to locations with an agenda and maps and all sorts of things. But that said, when you're on the ground, you really have to embrace spontaneity because things happen. Weather conditions change, environments yield other experiences than the ones you're expecting for. So, it's about being flexible. And also sometimes things just don't work out. The whole nature of field recording is so different from the concept of studio recording, because with studio recording, you're creating a kind of structured environment to just focus on the recording of a thing. It doesn't matter whether it's musical instruments or sound objects. You've created a space which is isolated. Whereas in field recording, you admit every aspect of sound around you. You deal with sound as it is, which is partly, I think, why I find it almost more exciting than studio recording, because you have that fluidity and that uncertainty and it can lead to both great results and failures, and you kind of have to embrace both ends of that. 32:36 Susie Cross One of the things you talked about in your book that I was really fascinated by was you mentioned that you still use analogue techniques for pitch shifting and time stretching and I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about that and why you do it and how you do it. Marcus Leadley Well, good point. Again, we've passed through a number of different technological eras. Obviously, there was the era where everything was done on tape. Then there was the transitional point where tape moved to digital, and then everything went fully digital. And I've seen students come through in all of these different areas. And we're now in a world where people are digital natives and have probably never seen tape recorders and things like that. But tape machines haven't necessarily become fully obsolete because they have a new role to play, almost analogous to plug-ins within production environments. And one of the nice things that tape will do is it's very good for speeding up and really good for slowing down sound. Because you've got a physical magnetic trace on the tape, which is a continuous thing, it's not like sampling where you've got X number of samples. So if you have a sampled recording, if you slow it down enough, sooner or later, you will hear the grain of the sample in the work. Whereas with analogue, you're always going to get a very, very smooth transition. And you have, with most tape machines that can do it, I mean, I use a Revox B77 for quite a lot of this, with its separate speed control unit, which is incredibly precise, so that you can play those speed ups and slow downs very, very subtly to actually create gesture within the sonic. So I will transfer digital files to the tape machines and then send it back to digital. So, I've got these set up at the studio, and the students spend a lot of time doing their processing through the tape machines and then putting them back. It's not like one would use in mastering, where you're deliberately sending something to a high-quality tape machine in order to get that sort of combination of tape compression and saturation. This is specifically for a process. Similarly, there is something very appealing about the old-fashioned tape editing. So if you start cutting things together on tape by physically cutting the tape, you don't have any screen to work with. You basically have your ears and at best probably a stopwatch. And I still demonstrate music concrete practice to students, and they do exercises in creating sort of sound collages just by chopping up tape. And it's surprising how many of them really get into it, because it's such a different process, and it puts you right back in the room with listening, because there is no screen. And for that, I like to use the really old British Ferrograph machines from the 1960s. I've got about five of them in perfectly good working order. And so I get whole rooms full of people chopping up tape. And several people have said, "Well, it's more like working with a sewing machine than it is with a computer." And so for people who are really into materiality of sound, it's a really good thing. And I've had several students who have gone off and bought their own and are kind of developing that as part of their practice. But at the end of the day, everything moves back to digital because that's how we listen to things. So, there is this crossover between the devices and the mediums. Susie Cross What a wonderful way of processing sounds, I love that. Marcus Leadley Yeah, it's good fun. 36:19 Marcus Leadley The only thing we haven't really talked about is contact microphones, which are small flat disks that you basically apply to surfaces and will allow you to pick up any of the sounds that are being transferred through that medium. And again, this falls into the hidden sounds agenda because you don't know what you're going to hear until you put the microphones on. And lots of the structures in our world will resonate. I take students down to Greenwich, where there are massively long railings along the river frontage. And I can send someone down way, way, way, so we have to communicate by telephone. They can be so far away. And I'll put a contact mic on the railings, and I'll say, "Well, look, just hit the railing." And almost instantly I can hear them, and they can be hundreds of yards away because the sound transmission through metals is, again, incredibly rapid. And you get all of the internal reverberation as well. So, putting contact mics onto things like those kind of wire fences you get outside of construction sites, especially in the wind, extraordinary noises and vibrations. People going up and down metal staircases. I'll play an example of that in a second. If you want to capture the sound of rigging clanging against a boat mast, quite difficult to do with an open microphone because you need a lot of wind protection. But if you put a contact mic on the mast, you just get just the clanging. So let me play a couple of examples. So, this is descending a metal staircase and putting a contact mic at the bottom and different people sort of passing through. So, here's one example of contact mic recording. [metal clanging] So that's one example. And this is the boat rigging recording. [metal clanging] So we didn't record any wind sound. We literally just the metallic sound of the wire ropes banging against the mast. So, that's really cool. And one thing I neglected to talk about when we were talking about ultrasound, we're talking a lot about bats, but it's worth pointing out that lots of other sources make ultrasound. We make ultrasound. Just our clothes, our belts, our shoes. As we move, we generate all this extra sound. And this is when people refer to their dogs as having a sort of sixth sense that they can tell their owner's about to arrive even before they come through the door, it's because they have massively extended hearing range, can hear our ultrasound signature. Just rattling your keys and things like that makes a huge amount of ultrasound, as do bicycles and LED lighting, the initiators within the circuitry. That generates loads of ultrasound. So you can hear LED lighting really clearly. So you can pick all of those up. Ultrasound detector is not just about being able to record bats. It's this whole world. So there's so many different things out there that we don't hear normally. Susie Cross Absolutely, yeah, and we deploy LEDs into almost everything these days, so everywhere you go... Marcus Leadley That's true. That's true. I mean, one of the things this has done is made me pity those poor dogs. It's no wonder that they are constantly distracted. Their sound world is just so chaotic and we're not making it any easier. Susie Cross No, that is so very true. Oh Marcus, this has been wonderful. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Marcus Leadley Good, thank-you. 40:27 Susie Cross And for our audiences, where can they go and hear your work? Marcus Leadley I've got a SoundCloud page, if you just Google my name. There's a YouTube channel. That's more compositional work rather than field recording, pure field recordings. I mean, SoundCloud's probably one of the best options. A lot of my records come out through a label called Diva Contemporary, and so there's a Bandcamp page for Diva Contemporary. Susie Cross Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time, Marcus. I appreciate it. Marcus Leadley Well, it's a pleasure to chat about these things. Susie Cross Thank-you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode, where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all our other episodes. And just before you go, make sure to go to soundonsound.com/podcasts, where you can explore what's playing on our other channels. This has been a Suzy Cross production for Sound On Sound.