WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:10.559 Dr. Emma Vossen: I really do think that games and play in general, it's such like an integral part of the human experience and it really opens people up. 00:00:10.730 --> 00:00:12.789 And then I think podcasting kind of does that too. 00:00:17.259 --> 00:00:23.509 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn, network, and get inspired. 00:00:24.005 --> 00:00:29.765 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcasts, an agency for higher education podcasters. 00:00:30.205 --> 00:00:34.975 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of Jpod Creations, podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:34.975 --> 00:00:36.844 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:36.904 --> 00:00:41.434 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:41.735 --> 00:00:45.315 Please also join our community at higheredspods.com. 00:00:46.075 --> 00:00:48.625 Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen, in this episode, we are talking to Dr. 00:00:48.645 --> 00:00:50.855 Emma Vossen from the University of Waterloo. 00:00:51.725 --> 00:00:55.880 Now, Emma produces two podcasts and we're going to talk about both of them. 00:00:56.390 --> 00:01:02.889 And she's with the multidisciplinary, have to be careful when saying that one, Games Institute. 00:01:03.250 --> 00:01:10.300 The Games Institute podcast and the First Person Scholar podcast are the two podcasts that she produces. 00:01:10.379 --> 00:01:10.649 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:01:10.649 --> 00:01:14.940 So we got to interview another fellow Canadian today, and she's also amazing. 00:01:14.940 --> 00:01:17.940 Like she does many different things, has won awards and everything too. 00:01:17.940 --> 00:01:21.720 So I was like, okay, you do it all plus produce a podcast. 00:01:21.970 --> 00:01:29.149 For those that are not familiar with the University of Waterloo, well, it's Canada's MIT, focusing on tech and engineering. 00:01:29.410 --> 00:01:37.340 The Games Institute is a super interesting and unique research center, but we'll let Emma get into that and explain because she'll do it more justice. 00:01:37.960 --> 00:01:43.670 And she'll talk about how they use podcasting as a tool for engagement beyond the research center. 00:01:44.540 --> 00:01:45.250 Neil McPhedran: Excellent. 00:01:45.570 --> 00:01:50.959 And we're also going to continue our little mini Podcasting 2.0 feature. 00:01:51.789 --> 00:02:00.080 And in this episode, I'm going to dig into the person tag, which is super applicable for higher education podcasters. 00:02:00.750 --> 00:02:01.250 Jennifer-Lee: I love it. 00:02:01.250 --> 00:02:05.950 I feel like it's like, Neil has his professor moment every episode. 00:02:06.020 --> 00:02:07.759 Can't wait to know what the person tag's all about. 00:02:07.810 --> 00:02:08.919 So let's get started. 00:02:09.940 --> 00:02:10.720 Neil McPhedran: Welcome, Emma. 00:02:10.789 --> 00:02:13.540 Really nice to have you here on the Continuing Studies podcast. 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:15.239 Dr. Emma Vossen: Thank you so much for having me guys. 00:02:15.510 --> 00:02:18.019 Neil McPhedran: Well, why don't we just start with a quick introduction? 00:02:18.019 --> 00:02:19.809 Maybe you can introduce yourself, please, Emma. 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:21.060 Dr. Emma Vossen: Uh, yeah, so I'm Dr. 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:29.460 Emma Vossen and I am the Knowledge Mobilization and Research Impact Officer at the Games Institute at the University of Waterloo. 00:02:29.529 --> 00:02:32.069 Jennifer-Lee: That's probably the coolest title we've ever had on this show. 00:02:32.069 --> 00:02:33.740 Can you tell us what that means? 00:02:34.239 --> 00:02:35.589 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, exactly. 00:02:35.854 --> 00:02:37.259 Dr. Emma Vossen: Absolutely. 00:02:37.259 --> 00:02:48.109 Um, so the Games Institute is a research facility at the University of Waterloo and my job specifically is in knowledge mobilization and research impact. 00:02:48.109 --> 00:03:00.305 So what that means is basically taking the undecipherable research that academics do, and trying to make it so that people understand it, and so that it's actually useful and impactful. 00:03:00.305 --> 00:03:00.879 Neil McPhedran: Great. 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:01.454 Okay. 00:03:01.454 --> 00:03:06.579 So my next question then is can you explain what the Games Institute is? 00:03:06.590 --> 00:03:07.980 This sounds really interesting. 00:03:08.179 --> 00:03:09.380 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, absolutely. 00:03:09.450 --> 00:03:18.819 I love talking about what the GI is because I actually, as a student, when I was doing my PhD, I was a student at GI and, uh, now I am staff. 00:03:18.829 --> 00:03:22.250 So I've sort of seen it from the very beginning, uh, till now. 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.119 So it started around 2012. 00:03:25.170 --> 00:03:31.170 And the idea was that there was several different professors, including our executive director, Dr. 00:03:31.170 --> 00:03:38.439 Neil Randall, who wanted to sort of validate the kind of interdisciplinary research that they were doing about technology. 00:03:38.519 --> 00:03:51.965 So Neil, our executive director, is an English professor, but if you look at his full CV, it's all these books and publications about, you know, games and, uh, the internet and technology. 00:03:52.075 --> 00:03:56.245 And, you know, people thought this was sort of like the central contradiction of his career. 00:03:56.284 --> 00:03:59.535 Like, why, if you're an English professor, why are you writing about these things? 00:03:59.574 --> 00:04:04.365 And so, uh, he met up with some other professors who were feeling these contradictions as well. 00:04:04.590 --> 00:04:18.090 And was kind of like, okay, so what if we started some sort of institute where everyone's doing interdisciplinary work focused on games or interactive immersive technologies, which is our sort of catch all for everything that is not games. 00:04:18.630 --> 00:04:22.739 And that's been going on for over ten years now. 00:04:22.850 --> 00:04:31.539 And in that time, you know, there's just been countless projects and publications and grants and too much to get into here. 00:04:31.540 --> 00:04:41.490 But yeah, basically in summary, it is a place for interdisciplinary researchers studying games and interactive technologies to come and work together. 00:04:41.699 --> 00:04:43.300 Jennifer-Lee: Sounds like you guys just have a lot of fun. 00:04:43.580 --> 00:04:45.150 Dr. Emma Vossen: Some of it is very fun. 00:04:45.150 --> 00:04:49.560 Some of it is boring, you know, just like any other workplace. 00:04:50.065 --> 00:04:50.645 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:04:50.735 --> 00:05:00.715 And this is awesome because, um, University of Waterloo is a Canadian university, very, we're very proud of the amazing technical research that's done out of University of Waterloo. 00:05:00.715 --> 00:05:07.354 So, and it's great to be, um, for Jen and I to be interviewing a fellow Canadian from a Canadian institution. 00:05:07.355 --> 00:05:09.335 So that's great to have you on board. 00:05:09.405 --> 00:05:09.655 Okay. 00:05:09.655 --> 00:05:15.690 So we are a podcast about university podcasting, which is why we're chatting here. 00:05:15.690 --> 00:05:21.160 So, um, can you just tell us a little bit about the Games Institute podcast? 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:21.690 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah. 00:05:21.690 --> 00:05:27.449 So, um, the Games Institute podcast, uh, it was actually started by Marisa, my predecessor. 00:05:27.515 --> 00:05:35.065 The idea was that we have all this great research happening here, and it was sort of a knowledge mobilization outlet for that research. 00:05:35.065 --> 00:05:38.385 So, individual researchers on, get them talking about the research. 00:05:38.385 --> 00:05:47.205 But then also to get them talking about themselves and their motivations behind their research, you know, the researcher behind the research sort of thing. 00:05:47.265 --> 00:05:48.575 Been going for a long time now. 00:05:48.575 --> 00:05:50.445 I'm now producing it. 00:05:50.575 --> 00:06:00.104 Part of what we are doing is that instead of, you know, me hosting the podcast, I've hosted other podcasts before, some of our PhD students hosting the podcast. 00:06:00.135 --> 00:06:04.784 So it's a really good sort of opportunity for them to gain some experience. 00:06:05.184 --> 00:06:14.065 And also I think it works well with the researchers because, it, I think it helps keep things from getting too, uh, highfalutin. 00:06:14.395 --> 00:06:17.195 Jennifer-Lee: And how did Tobin and Sid get the gig right now? 00:06:17.224 --> 00:06:19.814 Did they have to, like, beat a whole bunch of competition? 00:06:19.814 --> 00:06:21.895 Was there a gaming competition? 00:06:21.905 --> 00:06:23.205 They had to get to a certain level? 00:06:23.265 --> 00:06:24.244 Like, I want to know. 00:06:24.585 --> 00:06:28.654 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, I mean, not a lot of competition for, uh, free grad student labor. 00:06:29.654 --> 00:06:32.914 But, you know, uh, Tobin started, uh, working on it with Marisa. 00:06:33.834 --> 00:06:41.794 And then when Marisa stepped aside and I came into this role, I was thinking like, okay, well, I could co host it with Tobin just like Marisa was. 00:06:41.854 --> 00:06:45.114 But I liked the idea of someone else getting that experience. 00:06:45.234 --> 00:06:56.509 And so I approached Sid actually, and while, Sid has done Game's research, they are currently actually writing a dissertation in environment about disinformation about farming on social media. 00:06:56.589 --> 00:06:59.579 So like pretty different than Tobin's research. 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:02.059 I think that they have like a really good dynamic. 00:07:02.419 --> 00:07:04.729 Neil McPhedran: And so who's the audience for this podcast then? 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:14.159 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, so the audience would be a combination of other academics who are doing this sort of work that we do and hopefully the public. 00:07:14.509 --> 00:07:20.354 I think with some episodes, obviously more applicable than others to the public. 00:07:20.354 --> 00:07:24.844 You know, like they interviewed me on one episode of the podcast about my position. 00:07:24.934 --> 00:07:32.754 I don't know how interesting that would be for the public, but, you know, recently they interviewed some of our academics, uh, who are working in esports. 00:07:32.774 --> 00:07:41.494 And I think that that's the sort of thing that a lot of people in the public are curious about, like, how does that, um, how does esports function in the university? 00:07:41.694 --> 00:07:45.844 But honestly, like anyone wants to listen, I'm happy to have them listen. 00:07:45.844 --> 00:07:49.424 But those are sort of the two groups that, uh, that we're targeting. 00:07:49.784 --> 00:07:51.914 Jennifer-Lee: But I even from the topics interesting. 00:07:51.914 --> 00:07:59.264 I've played video games and things like that, but because the world is evolving, obviously, with diversity, equity, inclusion, which is amazing. 00:07:59.314 --> 00:08:03.094 And it's so focused in a lot of different areas through organizations. 00:08:03.094 --> 00:08:06.144 But I never thought about it being focused on in games. 00:08:06.264 --> 00:08:12.444 And taking a look at a lot of your episodes, and they're like, who's being represented in the non player characters? 00:08:12.444 --> 00:08:14.884 Who's being represented in the player? 00:08:15.094 --> 00:08:16.144 It was really interesting. 00:08:16.144 --> 00:08:23.089 And not even that you layered another top, I think it was your recent interview is like, how does emotion come into the game design? 00:08:23.119 --> 00:08:27.789 I was like, wow, this is a lot more than being like, here's Mario and he's going to get to the end. 00:08:27.859 --> 00:08:28.119 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah. 00:08:28.119 --> 00:08:36.109 And I mean, that's especially interesting to me because, you know, my PhD research was about diversity, equity, and inclusion in games culture. 00:08:36.129 --> 00:08:38.549 So that is something that I am super interested in. 00:08:38.569 --> 00:08:48.460 And honestly, it's been such a huge part of the Games Institute because, um, you know, the GI is a very, very diverse place. 00:08:48.830 --> 00:08:52.280 Um, and I don't think a lot of research institutes could say that. 00:08:52.280 --> 00:08:57.020 And I don't think a lot of games spaces in general could say that. 00:08:57.300 --> 00:09:04.680 The games industry and game spaces, it tends to, um, lean towards this sort of cis hetero white male. 00:09:04.730 --> 00:09:10.339 But at the GI, you know, we've always been very much in favor of expanding that as much as possible. 00:09:10.339 --> 00:09:22.399 And I think a huge part of that work is doing what you, exactly what you just described, is thinking about games and being like, okay, when you hear the word games, you're probably thinking something very specific. 00:09:22.400 --> 00:09:24.319 And I want you to think beyond that. 00:09:24.329 --> 00:09:27.859 Or when, even when you hear the word play, you're probably thinking about something very specific. 00:09:27.859 --> 00:09:30.270 And how do we sort of expand those ideas? 00:09:30.615 --> 00:09:38.464 Jennifer-Lee: Well, I was going to say early days of Mario and still, unless they have come up with more, usually there's not a lot of women character, there's one. 00:09:38.744 --> 00:09:40.645 You know, a lot of work to go there. 00:09:41.185 --> 00:09:42.245 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, exactly. 00:09:42.265 --> 00:09:57.275 And like in, you know, in that case, like one of the things that I'm actually looking into right now is that there's the newest game that's just been announced in the Legend of Zelda series is going to be the first game in the entire series where you play as Zelda, you know, the titular Zelda. 00:09:57.595 --> 00:09:58.095 Jennifer-Lee: Oh wow. 00:09:58.105 --> 00:10:05.399 Dr. Emma Vossen: Um, yeah, and that has been something that fans have been asking for for a really long time and has been extremely controversial. 00:10:05.429 --> 00:10:09.399 Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that and to writing more about that. 00:10:09.429 --> 00:10:16.369 But yeah, just in general, you know, the representation of women and people in colour in games has been kind of abysmal over the years. 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.040 And we've had a lot of research here that's addressed that. 00:10:19.060 --> 00:10:28.295 Jennifer-Lee: It's interesting to think about all this, too, because games are quite visual and podcasts not so visual. 00:10:28.295 --> 00:10:30.964 Yes, YouTube, but it's still us on microphones. 00:10:30.964 --> 00:10:33.425 We're not really showing photos of games and things like that. 00:10:34.125 --> 00:10:35.964 Maybe one day, but not at the moment. 00:10:36.105 --> 00:10:41.764 But it's really interesting to me that a podcast lends itself so well for these discussions. 00:10:41.764 --> 00:10:48.645 And I think it opens up a new audience and explores different areas that, like you were saying, we don't necessarily talk about in games. 00:10:48.645 --> 00:10:57.585 Or expose the fact that for the last, like, thirty, forty years, there hasn't been that many, uh, cultures featured in games. 00:10:57.585 --> 00:10:59.144 There hasn't been that many women. 00:10:59.444 --> 00:11:03.984 There hasn't been characters that are necessarily different backgrounds. 00:11:03.984 --> 00:11:09.525 It's been mainly white characters, and then you usually have mythical creatures, and that's it. 00:11:09.595 --> 00:11:15.794 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, and you know, actually I was part of some research during, uh, didn't really go much, go very far. 00:11:15.795 --> 00:11:27.670 But during my PhD where it was actually like, okay, play these games that came out this year and calculate, you know, how, like, how many characters there are, how many of them are women, how many of them are men, blah, blah, blah. 00:11:27.730 --> 00:11:33.819 And, you know, in some games, it was quite frequent that it would be like, there are more animal characters than women characters. 00:11:33.819 --> 00:11:36.040 That was something that, that often came up. 00:11:36.060 --> 00:11:51.460 But something else that you said, just about expanding the idea, is that one thing that we see a lot here is how do you take those technologies that have been used for games for entertainment purposes and maybe repurpose them for other purposes. 00:11:51.899 --> 00:12:01.480 So an example of the kind of projects that our researchers work on that sort of expand these ideas of what gaming technologies could be used for. 00:12:01.560 --> 00:12:06.689 One example, uh, we call it DOHR, which stands for Digital Oral Histories of Reconciliation. 00:12:06.749 --> 00:12:10.419 And that is, um, a project that one of our researchers, Dr. 00:12:10.419 --> 00:12:13.770 Christina Llewellyn, worked on with the Nova Scotian government. 00:12:13.910 --> 00:12:26.290 And the idea is that it's a VR experience that recreates the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children as it was when it was still open, it has since closed. 00:12:26.339 --> 00:12:34.839 And it is sort of an oral history experience that is used in the Nova Scotia grade eleven history curriculum. 00:12:34.889 --> 00:12:42.030 And the students can put on the VR headset and walk through this virtual reconstruction of the home. 00:12:42.280 --> 00:12:50.504 And while they do that, they hear the oral histories of some of the survivors, um, who experienced abuse at the home. 00:12:51.454 --> 00:13:02.624 And the reason that this was done was because the survivors themselves, when they reconciled with the government, they didn't want payment. 00:13:02.674 --> 00:13:11.734 What they wanted was to educate future generations about the racism that they experienced and the abuse they experienced to ensure it never happened again. 00:13:11.764 --> 00:13:25.114 So it was like, okay, how can we do this sort of educational experience in a way that is really effective for these younger audiences so that they can have this sort of intercultural, intergenerational experience. 00:13:25.325 --> 00:13:30.004 Jennifer-Lee: Wow, that ties into so much of what you are doing, especially with the podcast. 00:13:30.244 --> 00:13:38.244 How do you guys decide this is exactly what you want to do and why the podcast is a perfect vessel to get these messages out for the GI Institute? 00:13:38.474 --> 00:13:44.815 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, I mean, it's so hard to explain because I feel like so many of these projects come up really organically. 00:13:45.204 --> 00:13:55.484 That project that Christina started, she started it before she joined the GI and she was kind of lost with how to, like, what, how do I do this? 00:13:55.484 --> 00:13:58.535 You know, she didn't even know she wanted to do it in VR at the time. 00:13:58.595 --> 00:14:04.855 And then someone suggested she reach out to Neil, our executive director, and Neil said, okay, well, how about I introduce you to some people? 00:14:04.855 --> 00:14:06.984 And he introduced her to Dr. 00:14:06.984 --> 00:14:08.185 Jennifer Robert Smith. 00:14:08.415 --> 00:14:09.304 Um, Dr. 00:14:09.304 --> 00:14:12.724 Gerald Voorhees, another one of our researchers, and eventually Dr. 00:14:12.724 --> 00:14:19.415 Oliver Schneider, whose lab is on the other side of this wall, and he works in haptics. 00:14:19.464 --> 00:14:28.990 And so then that built on the experience more to be like, okay, well, how could we add haptic feedback, this sort of, you know, like when your phone vibrates, like that's haptic feedback. 00:14:29.449 --> 00:14:44.625 How could we add that into the experience to enhance the storytelling and work with the survivors to use the haptic experience in a way that's really effective, but also, um, like respects, respects their experiences, I guess. 00:14:45.065 --> 00:14:50.035 And so the podcast then, you know, is a way for us to sit these researchers down. 00:14:50.035 --> 00:14:55.435 They've obviously published papers about these things, but not many people are going to read these journal articles. 00:14:55.495 --> 00:14:59.605 So it's a way for us to sit them down and say, can you unpack that? 00:14:59.605 --> 00:15:00.584 Can you unpack that? 00:15:00.585 --> 00:15:01.595 Can you unpack that? 00:15:01.605 --> 00:15:10.715 And sort of take away some of these layers of academies that are around these projects to make the message really interesting and accessible to a larger audience. 00:15:10.964 --> 00:15:22.334 Neil McPhedran: Are you finding that the podcast is like, there's such chewy subjects you're talking about here, and there's so many different layers to unpack. 00:15:22.794 --> 00:15:28.154 And then back to what Jen was saying before, the gaming is such a visual thing. 00:15:28.434 --> 00:15:39.859 How are you finding podcasting as a channel to, I guess, address these topics, these stories, and be able to share the research, all this amazing research? 00:15:40.290 --> 00:15:41.109 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:41.129 --> 00:15:49.939 There is something about podcasting that I feel like, because it's so stripped down, it allows you to really, like, cut to the heart of what you're discussing. 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.230 So, I don't know, say someone's giving an academic conference presentation. 00:15:53.369 --> 00:15:54.460 They're going to have a script. 00:15:54.510 --> 00:15:55.869 They're going to have slides. 00:15:56.149 --> 00:15:57.429 They're going to be standing there. 00:15:57.429 --> 00:15:59.220 They'll have their gestures and whatever. 00:15:59.260 --> 00:16:11.964 But when you get them on the podcast, you can get them to really, you can see, honestly, when you're interviewing people, and you can hear it too, I think, when people have to stop and think and think, oh, I've never really thought about it like this before. 00:16:11.964 --> 00:16:13.714 I've never thought this hard about it before. 00:16:13.754 --> 00:16:36.885 They don't have, you know, especially with games, so much of the presentations that our researchers give are so visual, you know, look at this screen recording, look at this demo, like, and I think one of the ways that we start every episode of our podcast that I think is very unusual is we ask people to introduce themselves, obviously, but then we say, do you remember what your first experience with games was? 00:16:37.074 --> 00:16:40.294 And it really disarms people, I think. 00:16:40.454 --> 00:16:44.014 And it makes them really think about why am I here? 00:16:44.014 --> 00:16:45.165 Why are any of us here? 00:16:45.194 --> 00:16:47.204 How did I get to this point with this research? 00:16:47.224 --> 00:16:58.464 How much of it comes back to, you know, in case of Geneva was one of our recent interviews, you know, and she talks about her experiences with Pokemon Snap and how that was really informative to her research. 00:16:58.474 --> 00:17:00.315 Sometimes people talk about soccer. 00:17:00.325 --> 00:17:02.185 Sometimes people talk about Monopoly. 00:17:02.224 --> 00:17:08.515 But I really do think that games and play in general, it's such like an integral part of the human experience. 00:17:08.515 --> 00:17:12.345 And it really opens people up. 00:17:12.835 --> 00:17:15.185 And then I think podcasting kind of does that too. 00:17:15.194 --> 00:17:22.434 You know, it's kind of like, I don't know, when you lay on the couch, the idea of laying on the couch at the therapist's office or something. 00:17:23.004 --> 00:17:26.055 Like people really open up when they're podcasting I feel. 00:17:26.665 --> 00:17:33.735 Jennifer-Lee: Well, I just think that everyone is really figuring out that podcasting is an amazing vessel that we didn't think about. 00:17:34.115 --> 00:17:42.294 Because I think we've always just been exposed to images when it comes to games or images, when it comes to certain things like books. 00:17:42.324 --> 00:17:50.514 And Neil and I talked to Yale University University Press, and they do a podcast that's specifically on art books. 00:17:50.544 --> 00:17:53.564 And you would think, oh, how do you do a podcast on that? 00:17:53.695 --> 00:17:55.834 It's actually one of their very successful podcasts. 00:17:55.995 --> 00:17:57.205 It's been going for years. 00:17:57.205 --> 00:17:58.364 People love it. 00:17:58.554 --> 00:18:03.844 Because again, it's evoking that discussion you don't get when you're showing all these flashy images. 00:18:04.054 --> 00:18:05.014 Dr. Emma Vossen: Well, and you know what? 00:18:05.034 --> 00:18:08.935 It makes me think of like, I was listening to one of our episodes recently. 00:18:09.350 --> 00:18:16.959 And one of our researchers, who actually is also a professional board game designer, was describing a game that he's playing. 00:18:17.379 --> 00:18:23.560 And it was interesting, because I was sitting there thinking, just as a fellow gamer, like, hmm, I wonder if I'd like this game. 00:18:23.969 --> 00:18:28.850 And I realized, like, he describes so much of the experience of playing the game. 00:18:29.170 --> 00:18:33.030 But never once mentioned, like, the art style, or the budget. 00:18:33.330 --> 00:18:38.200 Or, like, as far as I know, like, it could be photorealistic, it could be pixels. 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:47.140 But I think that, at the end of the day, that doesn't matter as much as the experience itself of playing those games. 00:18:47.810 --> 00:18:54.929 Jennifer-Lee: Well, I think something we've lost a little bit of, and now it's coming back, such as the younger generation, is imagination. 00:18:55.249 --> 00:18:55.499 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yes. 00:18:55.509 --> 00:19:03.429 Jennifer-Lee: And we have had some so much, um, known for us because we sit down and we look at our phones and we see things. 00:19:03.459 --> 00:19:13.539 But they're saying in really young kids, they're not using their imagination, but that's why podcasting, especially in the younger demographic, not even like young adults. 00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:23.800 They're talking about like young kids, apparently that's a very popular avenue because the parents are letting them listen to more podcasts than they watch TV because they have to think and they have to create it. 00:19:23.909 --> 00:19:25.679 I think what you guys are doing, same thing. 00:19:26.009 --> 00:19:39.960 And it's awesome because I think we all lose that vital skill, which really helps us in anything that we do in life, uh, whether it's like relationships or building friendships or business. 00:19:40.190 --> 00:19:40.640 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah. 00:19:40.730 --> 00:19:51.110 And for me personally, I vastly prefer doing podcasts to any of the other sort of media interviews and engagement that I've done. 00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:52.650 And it's sort of twofold. 00:19:52.650 --> 00:19:56.115 Like on the one hand, it's like, okay, I can just focus on communicating. 00:19:56.125 --> 00:19:57.695 I can just focus on my words. 00:19:57.745 --> 00:20:01.875 I don't have to think about how I look or how my hair looks or any of those things. 00:20:01.875 --> 00:20:10.635 But then also, you know, being sort of a public figure as an academic online, like I also faced a lot of harassment every time I would do an interview. 00:20:10.665 --> 00:20:17.020 And if it was a video interview, that harassment would always be doubled because there'd always be stuff in there about your appearance and blah, blah. 00:20:17.360 --> 00:20:26.815 And I'd always think, well, but none of that matters to what I'm saying, you know, like, at least refute my words instead of making these sort of jabs. 00:20:27.105 --> 00:20:29.125 Jennifer-Lee: I hate keyboard warriors. 00:20:29.565 --> 00:20:29.985 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yes. 00:20:40.705 --> 00:20:44.684 Neil McPhedran: Welcome back to our ongoing Podcasting 2.0 segment. 00:20:45.070 --> 00:20:47.290 We'll hop right back into our conversation with Dr. 00:20:47.290 --> 00:20:49.020 Vosson in a couple of minutes. 00:20:49.300 --> 00:20:57.320 So as promised, we're going to keep you updated on our journey of infusing Podcasting 2.0 into this very podcast, Continuing Studies. 00:20:57.460 --> 00:21:05.410 In each episode, we've been adding this quick segment and we're focusing in on one of the Podcast 2.0 features that we've adopted. 00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:08.080 And we recommend you adopting as well. 00:21:08.210 --> 00:21:14.900 In this episode, we're going to dive into a feature that highlights the collaborative spirit of podcasting, the person tag. 00:21:15.010 --> 00:21:26.780 So whether you're a solo creator, a duo, or having an entire production team, the person tag allows you to give credit where credit is due, and it documents the roles of everyone involved in your podcast. 00:21:27.149 --> 00:21:27.409 Okay. 00:21:27.419 --> 00:21:29.689 So what is this person tag? 00:21:30.014 --> 00:21:34.955 So the person tag, as the other tags are part of the Podcasting 2.0 namespace. 00:21:35.544 --> 00:21:41.144 And in this case, it's designed to formally recognize everyone contributing to your podcast. 00:21:41.264 --> 00:21:54.540 This tag allows you to specify specific roles and those people in those roles, like hosts, guests, really key, producers, editors, executive producers, so on and so forth. 00:21:54.570 --> 00:22:00.160 And you can do this at the show level and, or at the episode level. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.810 So there's lots of flexibility in how you can represent your team sort of at the macro show level. 00:22:05.149 --> 00:22:11.470 But also that individual contribution that might go into each episode and guests involved with that individual episode, etcetera. 00:22:11.750 --> 00:22:12.010 Okay. 00:22:12.080 --> 00:22:13.629 So why does the person tag matter? 00:22:13.639 --> 00:22:14.940 One, recognition. 00:22:15.030 --> 00:22:23.010 It gives us a platform and a way to acknowledge the contributions of the whole team, not just the hosts. 00:22:23.670 --> 00:22:28.470 And this recognition can boost morale and strengthen the overall podcasting community. 00:22:28.830 --> 00:22:30.620 Two, transparency. 00:22:30.985 --> 00:22:39.915 We're openly documenting roles so listeners can get insight to behind the scenes efforts that shaped your podcast, so on and so forth. 00:22:40.524 --> 00:22:43.215 And three, searchability and discoverability. 00:22:43.264 --> 00:22:44.045 This one's key. 00:22:44.475 --> 00:22:55.014 So the person tag enhances that metadata for podcast apps and podcast directories, ultimately improving their search algorithms. 00:22:55.074 --> 00:23:08.195 This means listeners then can easily search up and find all the podcasts, for example, from a given subject matter expert or a frequent guest that you may have on your podcast. 00:23:08.195 --> 00:23:12.010 What are all the episodes that he or she are on. 00:23:12.150 --> 00:23:15.440 Enhancing that discoverability and broadening your show's reach. 00:23:15.600 --> 00:23:19.210 Why should higher ed podcasters embrace the podcast tag? 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:20.290 This one's perfect. 00:23:20.925 --> 00:23:32.184 In higher education, collaboration is key and recognizing those people that were involved with the production of the content is part and parcel of what we do. 00:23:32.185 --> 00:23:38.084 We cite those references and the people involved in putting together an academic paper. 00:23:38.374 --> 00:23:58.684 This lends itself in a very similar way, where we can detail all the individual contributors, even the faculty members, researchers, students, or external experts that we brought to the table that had a participation in a given episode , or the show at the macro level. 00:23:59.320 --> 00:24:05.459 And then this transparency not only builds credibility by highlighting the credentials and the roles of both contributors. 00:24:05.459 --> 00:24:08.529 But also serves as an educational tool for your listeners. 00:24:08.709 --> 00:24:10.749 How do we get started with the person tag? 00:24:10.749 --> 00:24:12.840 Will we incorporate the person tag? 00:24:12.840 --> 00:24:29.434 We identify those people individually at the host, the podcast host platforms, and then the apps can pick it up from there in their advanced tagging system and integrates into all the stuff we just talked about. 00:24:29.504 --> 00:24:48.894 As we always do with this, we've added a few references in the show notes, including, um, a link to the Podcasting 2.0 page, which lists out the apps, the listening apps and the hosting platforms that play nicely with the person tag. 00:24:49.584 --> 00:24:56.304 And then as well, I think these resources we can, you can go deeper into understanding how to implement and how it all works and so on and so forth. 00:24:56.314 --> 00:25:04.754 So we encourage you all, all your higher education podcasters out there to start using the person tag and ultimately give credit where credit is due. 00:25:04.764 --> 00:25:09.725 It's simple, it's easy to add into your publishing process. 00:25:10.100 --> 00:25:16.270 And yet, will have a super impactful way for indexing, searching, so on and so forth. 00:25:16.770 --> 00:25:19.480 Okay, thanks for tuning into Podcasting 2.0 segment. 00:25:20.169 --> 00:25:24.620 In the next episode, I'm going to talk about and dive into the pod role. 00:25:26.140 --> 00:25:29.390 Yeah, it's interesting, like, you really get me to think about this a bit. 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:37.745 It's only the last hundred years we've had all this visual side of storytelling, um, with graphics and cinema. 00:25:37.765 --> 00:25:45.645 And then it's only in the last, what, ten, twenty years where we've had incredible graphics and graphics cards in our computers and things like that. 00:25:45.735 --> 00:25:50.985 Versus, you know, we've been telling stories for thousands of years as humans. 00:25:50.995 --> 00:25:57.544 So it's kind of innately kind of taps into maybe sort of more of our inner beings, maybe. 00:25:57.605 --> 00:26:02.534 It's really interesting and I love how you guys are using the podcasting medium in the way you are. 00:26:02.534 --> 00:26:15.035 And that question you ask off the top just to sort of get into it and get someone thinking a little bit differently and sort of getting into the storytelling and the spoken sort of discussion part of it versus being caught up in your visuals and presentation. 00:26:18.470 --> 00:26:23.850 Jennifer-Lee: And that question is so important because it really opens up people and really showcases who they are. 00:26:23.850 --> 00:26:37.865 And I, even if I think about what was the first video game experience I had was, oh my god, this is like, you know, the little cartridges that you had to like, blow on and put them back into the Nintendo, the brown Nintendo, you know that one? 00:26:37.865 --> 00:26:38.455 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, oh yeah. 00:26:38.655 --> 00:26:41.245 Jennifer-Lee: And, uh, not the 64, which was purple. 00:26:41.715 --> 00:26:52.720 Uh, but I remember Mario and like the old school one where they had to like, carry everything on their head and use it to throw off and stuff. 00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:53.570 But that's what I think about it. 00:26:53.570 --> 00:26:55.070 Dr. Emma Vossen: That's Mario 2. 00:26:55.090 --> 00:26:56.320 Jennifer-Lee: Was that Mario 2? 00:26:56.340 --> 00:26:56.800 Okay, perfect. 00:26:56.830 --> 00:26:57.670 See, I don't even know. 00:26:58.090 --> 00:27:00.869 But Neil, do you know what your, this is fun. 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.010 Do you know what your first video game experience is? 00:27:04.900 --> 00:27:11.255 Neil McPhedran: Uh, I had, well I had friends that had Ataris and Coleco. 00:27:11.405 --> 00:27:17.165 My, I think, first one that I sort of owned and had, it wasn't really gaming, but I had a Commodore Vic 20. 00:27:17.165 --> 00:27:18.835 So I'm really dating myself here. 00:27:19.255 --> 00:27:24.845 Dr. Emma Vossen: I mean, it's funny 'cause I was gonna say, my first was a Commodore 64 was my first gaming experience. 00:27:24.845 --> 00:27:27.515 So you're not dating yourself, at least in relation to me. 00:27:27.695 --> 00:27:29.045 Neil McPhedran: I couldn't afford the 64. 00:27:29.045 --> 00:27:30.455 I could only afford the Vic 20 00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:34.230 . Jennifer-Lee: I don't know what it is, but that's okay. 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:37.410 Neil McPhedran: Oh boy, okay. 00:27:37.670 --> 00:27:40.240 Let's just move on from this dating ourselves stuff. 00:27:40.850 --> 00:27:50.359 Okay, so not only is there the Games Institute podcast, you also work with a podcast called The First Person Scholar Podcast. 00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:50.920 Do I have that correct? 00:27:51.590 --> 00:27:51.979 Dr. Emma Vossen: Uh, yeah. 00:27:51.979 --> 00:28:00.479 So First Person Scholar is a publication that's run out of the Games Institute and the First Person Podcast is the affiliated podcast. 00:28:01.059 --> 00:28:05.759 So I was, for a while, I was editor in chief of First Person Scholar when I was a PhD student. 00:28:06.179 --> 00:28:10.549 And during that time, I also was the host of First Person Podcast. 00:28:10.659 --> 00:28:11.049 Neil McPhedran: Oh, great. 00:28:11.090 --> 00:28:11.329 Okay. 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:20.870 So the Games Institute podcast is sort of the main one though, or are they both kind of like equally key channels of communication for the Institute? 00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:27.004 Dr. Emma Vossen: So the First Person Podcast has actually been going on longer than the Games Institute podcast. 00:28:27.504 --> 00:28:32.744 And it's interesting because I feel like there's obviously some overlap. 00:28:33.175 --> 00:28:42.905 The Games Institute podcast was really more of like a, okay, we're going to bring on one of our researchers, you know, each episode and showcase what their research is. 00:28:43.415 --> 00:28:57.934 Uh, whereas with the First Person Podcast, it was much more, uh, let's get a sort of panel of experts together who may be from the Games Institute or may be external, and talk about specific subjects within gaming. 00:28:58.065 --> 00:29:01.180 And so, yeah, that, that was the idea, that's sort of the separation. 00:29:01.210 --> 00:29:01.730 Does that make sense? 00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:02.100 Neil McPhedran: Totally. 00:29:02.170 --> 00:29:03.480 Yeah, that totally makes sense. 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:08.470 And it makes sense why you would launch that second Games Institute podcast. 00:29:08.490 --> 00:29:08.999 I like that. 00:29:08.999 --> 00:29:15.700 You're kind of like focusing in on an episode, on a researcher and their research basically. 00:29:15.860 --> 00:29:25.280 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, and with the First Person podcast as well, um, First Person Scholar has always been run exclusively by grad students. 00:29:25.389 --> 00:29:31.610 And so the podcast as well, like the majority of the guests and hosts on the podcast are also grad students. 00:29:31.669 --> 00:29:37.350 And, um, whereas a lot, like we have more of the full faculty on the Games Institute podcast. 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:42.670 Um, so there's also kind of that separation too, but it's all kind of the same philosophy. 00:29:42.870 --> 00:29:48.775 Like First Person Scholar was started in 2012 as a middle state publication. 00:29:49.315 --> 00:29:58.775 And what that means essentially is, you know, you have sort of academic journals on one end, and you have, uh, journalism on the other hand. 00:29:58.865 --> 00:30:12.735 And it's very hard to communicate anything in the middle there that is not, you know, a journal article you're waiting three years to come out, or straight up journalism that, you know, journalists write. 00:30:12.955 --> 00:30:21.725 So if you're an academic and you have something you want to convey and you want to convey it quickly, uh, there are very few venues through which you can do that. 00:30:22.195 --> 00:30:35.590 So that was why we started First Person Scholar, which we call FPS, um, to help scholars, you quickly convey their research in a more accessible form. 00:30:35.950 --> 00:30:44.760 And I feel like podcasting goes right along with that, you know, it's just sort of a very natural pairing with that sort of middle state writing. 00:30:44.970 --> 00:30:51.490 And I would consider a lot of podcasting, academic podcasting to be part of that sort of middle state bubble. 00:30:51.975 --> 00:30:52.975 Neil McPhedran: I really like that. 00:30:53.025 --> 00:30:56.545 I feel like you put that together really nicely for me. 00:30:56.595 --> 00:31:06.915 I think that this is something I've thought about, but I hadn't quite formulated an articulation of those two ends of the spectrum and the advantage that podcasting does bring to it. 00:31:06.915 --> 00:31:31.885 So we've, we chatted with a professor from the University of Louisiana who does cybersecurity and one of his podcasts, it's called Cyberways, is he someone who's written a very cerebral research paper on cyber security, but sort of makes it more approachable for the practitioners in the cyber community versus like reading the journal version of it. 00:31:31.905 --> 00:31:40.135 But the way you've just articulated that is fantastic that it's this real sweet spot that podcasting can offer in the world of academia. 00:31:40.245 --> 00:31:43.035 Dr. Emma Vossen: And that's kind of like thinking about knowledge mobilization. 00:31:43.540 --> 00:31:44.500 Like, writ large. 00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:51.980 Like, I personally am of the opinion that I think all journal articles should be open and accessible to anyone. 00:31:51.980 --> 00:31:53.440 Like, I don't think they should be paywalled. 00:31:53.470 --> 00:31:59.240 I also don't think that anyone who is not in academia should be expected to read a journal article. 00:31:59.350 --> 00:32:06.760 So, if you want the information that's in that article to have any impact, and you know, something about cyber security that affects literally everyone. 00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:13.970 It's like, you can't just one and done, write the journal article and say, okay, well, there I've done my job. 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:23.490 Like it is our responsibility as academics to take the information that is there and not just mobilize it, but to translate it for a larger audience. 00:32:23.490 --> 00:32:30.910 And, you know, I think in healthcare, this has been something that they've been wrestling with for a long time because it is literally a matter of life and death. 00:32:31.610 --> 00:32:37.310 But other fields are quite behind, um, when it comes to knowledge translation and mobilization, I think. 00:32:37.320 --> 00:32:37.840 Neil McPhedran: Mm hmm. 00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:38.290 Yeah. 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:40.110 I really like the lens that you're putting on this. 00:32:40.110 --> 00:32:41.690 I think this is really interesting. 00:32:41.690 --> 00:32:48.940 I think most of us wouldn't even know how to read a, in the non academic world, wouldn't even know how to read a research paper, actually out of a journal. 00:32:48.940 --> 00:32:52.690 I mean, they're all sort of for, you know, this way they're put together and whatnot. 00:32:52.690 --> 00:32:57.910 It's very, I think for the average lay person like myself, it's not super approachable. 00:32:58.020 --> 00:32:58.500 Dr. Emma Vossen: No. 00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:07.635 And like a huge part of my job is, that not only am I working at a research institute, but it's an interdisciplinary research institute. 00:33:07.635 --> 00:33:07.875 Neil McPhedran: Right. 00:33:07.995 --> 00:33:18.155 Dr. Emma Vossen: So a huge part of the literacy that I've been trying to build, and I try to imbue this into the podcast, while I'm not hosting, you know, I am the one doing the research and writing the questions that will be asked. 00:33:18.815 --> 00:33:34.655 And so a huge part of that is when I know someone's going to be on the podcast, I'm the one to open those journal articles, and go through them regardless of discipline, and try to come up with questions that really cut to the heart of what they're saying in an accessible manner. 00:33:34.855 --> 00:33:40.575 Jennifer-Lee: Well, and podcasting is so important in that because people take a long time to write those research papers. 00:33:40.575 --> 00:33:41.925 They go to a lot of trouble. 00:33:41.965 --> 00:33:47.095 So it'd be nice if more people can listen to them and understand them through podcasting. 00:33:47.095 --> 00:33:52.665 Because even in the private podcasting world, a lot of places like law firms are using their newsletters and their private podcasts. 00:33:52.905 --> 00:33:57.745 And they're getting higher engagement on those than they would normally have if they just sent them out an email. 00:33:57.775 --> 00:34:06.575 So I, there's another way to understand all this beautiful work that people do because come on, we don't just write them for them to sit on a shelf. 00:34:06.875 --> 00:34:21.245 Dr. Emma Vossen: Well, and I think also working in the general realm of tech, we've just had this entire century of technological development, just like so quickly, everything is evolving so rapidly. 00:34:21.245 --> 00:34:29.670 And now, especially with artificial intelligence, the rate that that is growing is especially rapid, like unprecedented. 00:34:30.230 --> 00:34:46.265 And I think that we actually need to sort of move from, step one was making all this technology and step two is then how do we take all that technology, all this amazing technology and actually implemented and put it into place ,for social good. 00:34:46.535 --> 00:34:51.875 For the good of humans, not for making money, but so we, you know, survive. 00:34:51.935 --> 00:34:55.935 And I think that podcasting is one of the key pieces to that. 00:34:55.935 --> 00:35:04.445 It is a very effective way at getting complex information out because it's edited, but you can only edit so much. 00:35:04.525 --> 00:35:10.410 Jennifer-Lee: And there's a lesser barrier to entry because most people do have a cell phone so they can listen. 00:35:10.420 --> 00:35:13.880 Or they can even, I wouldn't recommend this, but there's tons of videos on it. 00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:21.760 You can even record, and I can't believe I'm saying this, a podcast on your phone, but I won't even get into that because that's like one of my pain points, but you're so right. 00:35:21.770 --> 00:35:27.990 And I'm glad that we have this tool because I do think audio in general is going to be a great link for the future. 00:35:27.990 --> 00:35:31.075 So thank you so much for joining us today. 00:35:31.075 --> 00:35:33.735 We really appreciated having you on. 00:35:33.885 --> 00:35:44.890 This is an awesome discussion because I think more and more institutes have to have these discussions and figure out how we're going to grow in the future and how we're going to use audio to be more inclusive and bring our message out. 00:35:44.980 --> 00:35:46.270 Dr. Emma Vossen: Yeah, absolutely. 00:35:46.290 --> 00:35:48.760 And yeah, I would love to talk to you guys again anytime. 00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:49.860 Thanks so much for having me. 00:35:49.910 --> 00:35:50.740 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, that was great. 00:35:50.740 --> 00:35:51.030 Thanks. 00:35:51.040 --> 00:35:51.570 Thanks so much. 00:35:52.380 --> 00:35:52.640 Wow. 00:35:52.640 --> 00:35:55.060 That was an awesome conversation, Jen. 00:35:55.090 --> 00:35:57.480 I know I say that every time, but that really was. 00:35:57.520 --> 00:35:58.860 Emma really got me thinking. 00:35:58.860 --> 00:36:20.100 And I said that a couple of times in our conversation, but her take on podcasting and how she sees this opportunity of podcasting filling this middle ground between, I would say like journalism on one end of the spectrum versus research journals on the other end of the spectrum. 00:36:20.100 --> 00:36:25.820 And podcasting kind of come right up the middle and fill this middle ground between the two. 00:36:25.850 --> 00:36:33.820 I really thought that was an interesting take and definitely something I think for higher education podcasters to think about. 00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:45.300 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I really enjoyed that as well because research, like I've had a few friends do their MBAs and it's like they put all this hard work into it and then no one, well, like I can't read it. 00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:47.650 It's like a long thing. 00:36:47.650 --> 00:36:50.850 And it's nice that people are starting to dig these up as well. 00:36:51.210 --> 00:37:07.650 And I also like the fact that kind of similar to our guests that we had on a previous episode, Yale University Press, when they were doing the art books, and they were translating them on to a podcast that was very successful, even though it was a very visual medium. 00:37:07.750 --> 00:37:10.510 It's the same thing that they're doing here, but with video games. 00:37:10.540 --> 00:37:13.540 And so I grew up in the like Pikachu generation. 00:37:13.970 --> 00:37:16.520 And when I was really young, that's what I played. 00:37:16.520 --> 00:37:20.790 And so the episode I listened to, they were really able to create the imagery with that. 00:37:21.100 --> 00:37:23.040 And I just thought it was really fascinating. 00:37:23.700 --> 00:37:35.990 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, she talked about typically in their world, a presentation is filled with graphics and it's very graphically focused. 00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:56.080 But that's all stripped away, forced to be stripped away in this audio medium of podcasting and how that allows them to get almost deeper into these conversations they have about video games and graphics and so on and so forth. 00:37:56.090 --> 00:37:57.260 But yeah, what a great one. 00:37:57.330 --> 00:38:00.690 Every time we go into these, it amazes me how much we learn. 00:38:00.690 --> 00:38:05.030 We try to kind of steer the conversation and then some great stuff that comes out of it. 00:38:05.040 --> 00:38:06.120 This was an excellent one. 00:38:06.140 --> 00:38:09.090 So Jen, why don't you read us out? 00:38:09.150 --> 00:38:10.690 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I just have to say one more thing before. 00:38:10.700 --> 00:38:11.990 Neil McPhedran: Okay, you can say one more thing. 00:38:12.020 --> 00:38:12.350 Jennifer-Lee: Go. 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:12.740 Okay. 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:13.980 Oh, thank you, Neil. 00:38:15.290 --> 00:38:29.025 What I wanted to say was it does surprise you because we've been doing so many of these for a year that I thought, when we started this journey because you and I have university and college clients that all the podcasts would be very similar about them joining the school. 00:38:29.105 --> 00:38:39.865 But honestly, I felt that we have delved into so many different unique ways that they are promoting the university in a way, but through different genres. 00:38:39.875 --> 00:38:43.065 So I thought it was really neat anyways, but that's my take on it. 00:38:43.165 --> 00:38:43.365 Neil McPhedran: Great. 00:38:43.445 --> 00:38:43.705 Yeah. 00:38:43.865 --> 00:38:48.335 I think, I think that was a worthwhile comment to tack on at the end there. 00:38:48.335 --> 00:38:48.725 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you. 00:38:48.725 --> 00:38:49.315 I appreciate it. 00:38:49.355 --> 00:38:51.555 So now I'll read this out on my own terms. 00:38:51.585 --> 00:38:51.865 Okay. 00:38:51.865 --> 00:38:52.345 Thank you. 00:38:52.845 --> 00:38:58.210 So, thank you for tuning in to the Continuing Studies Podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:01.560 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:39:01.870 --> 00:39:08.400 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform so you never miss an episode. 00:39:08.720 --> 00:39:16.720 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested in a higher education podcasts. 00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:25.420 We also invite you to join your peers on higheredpods.com, where you can connect with other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the 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