they will start spewing things at you
you know the other parent says this about you and
and as if they believe it and it's very very triggering
because you feel like okay I got
away from this person and now my kid
is like a mini me of them and how do I deal with this
and so the instinct is to often
correct the record or say no that's not true
this is what it is or I didn't do that or I did
absolutely of course it is right
yeah it's one of the worst things you can do
welcome back to raising men parenting is hard
at the best of times but it takes on uniquely
difficult challenges in the middle of a storm
of a high conflict divorce so how do you provide
emotional safety and moral stability to your son
when your partner becomes your opponent
our guest today
is Lisa Johnson she's the co founder of been there
got out and the author of a new book when your ex
turns your kids against you Lisa is a high
conflict divorce strategist and a certified
domestic violence
advocate who has turned a grueling personal journey
into a roadmap for others Lisa's testimony was
instrumental in passing Jennifer's Law in Connecticut
which expanded the legal
definition of domestic violence to include
coercive control which is a pernicious form of abuse
she's here to help us tackle some tough questions
hopefully we won't have to face
but Lisa's inspiring personal story and her lessons
are instructed
to parents in healthy relationships also
Lisa welcome to the show
wow Shawn what an introduction thank you
well let's
first of all I I find I your story is absolutely
amazing
so why don't you just start with sharing with us
alright so
just tell me where to start cause I am a talker and I
that's great
let's begin at the beginning
at some point you were married you had kids
yeah and it started going sour what happened
well actually
I didn't think it started going sour it was kind of
an explosion I basically was with my ex for
20 years we were married for nearly 18
I thought he was my best friend we got
along pretty well we had two kids together you know
red flags hindsight's always 20 20 but sure um
two years before our actual divorce
I discovered that he had been living a double life
that he had been soliciting other women for the entire
relationship things started
coming out that were at the tip of the iceberg and it was just more and more and more and I was
absolutely
um flabbergasted and so we
decide I in my mind at the time it was like I will do
anything to keep this family
together because I had the
idea that you had to have an intact family
or the kids lives would be ruined and my ex
used to say that cause he knew that mattered
so much to me he said if you divorce me
you're gonna ruin their lives so
I stayed in it it took two years we
um you know to finally
get out but um we went through three rounds of couples
counseling all kinds of
crazy crazy stuff and then um
when I finally met with a divorce attorney
uh he told me within 20 minutes yours
is gonna be one of the really bad ones and I thought
that is crazy like how did he know that
but I really I always say I
I really believed at the time that my ex
was a good person who had done some bad things
I thought this would be amicable
we had spent two years trying to work things out um
and that we would go to mediation
it would be done I remember being terrified
that my divorce was gonna cost a $10,000
I had heard that was the average it cost
10 times that amount in the first year
and then I was in court for 10 years total
so my divorce attorney was right it
again it cost $100,000 that first year
and took a full year and at the end of that year
my divorce attorney who
became like one of my best friends
that year of course cause we had such an intimate relationship cause we spent
so much time together he said yours
is he is not going to follow this agreement um
you cannot afford me he's going to financially
decimate you he's gonna continue to do it
so you need to go on your own
I'll be here on the background but we'll probably get you some paralegal if you need it and you need to start building
your case now
so he was right I went on my path my pro
se or self represented journey um
it took about a year and nine months for me to sort of catch my breath
and put together a really
powerful case and then I went back pro
se or pro per in California it's also called and then
another seven and a half years about a hundredish
court appearances in two states um
including him appealing
four times me representing myself
at the appellate court level um
even though I was told oh you better not do that cause it's a really big deal
and me saying well I don't wanna spend $15,000
to have someone else
speak for me when I've already done so well
so not only won that case but then um it was notable
enough to be published as case law
so that's one of my biggest triumphs because
for a lawyer to get published
is a really big deal and everyone I've ever spoken to is like I have never heard of a prose
getting published so that was something
then of course the Jennifer's Law
being involved with that and then um
my ex actually sued
my partner and I for $4 million in defamation
in civil court that was like year 9
when it was like almost ending
so we we got that thrown out um
finally but it was just like having
a terrorist for all those years and to this day still
sometimes going to the mailbox I I
flinch because I'm like what's what fresh hell
might be awaiting me you know
things like that but that's brutal and it's not I mean
you're you're entwined
forever because you have kids
with this person and so it's not just like getting married
you you have kids too and you know
that's the father of your children what I mean
it's not like you can just not deal with each other
no and that did not go as planned either
tell me about that
so we went to when I
when I first met my lawyer
he said I think the best thing for you to do is go to mediation
and just have me in the background don't even tell your
your ex that you have an attorney
just meet individually with a mediator um
and this is something we advise
to our clients who can handle it
and so we managed to get a really good parenting plan
um that said we had joint
physical and legal custody meaning we shared decisions
but my ex never showed up
oh he completely just left he didn't
he he didn't do a single visitation
I was trying to reach him and I was like where are you
right before um well actually it was it might have been
I don't remember if it was the day we told the kids
that we were getting a divorce but he had a key ring
and you know like on your key ring
sometimes you have those little cards like for
for the supermarket
or like the library things like that that you kind of
scan so I distinctly
remember when it was like we're getting a divorce
right in front of our son who was maybe 14 at the time
he had a a key ring for the YMCA and the library
cause he used to take our son to the library and drop them off at the YMCA
and he took them off and threw them on the table and said I guess I don't need these anymore and I was like
what and he basically walked out and especially
for those first 10 days he just disappeared
the kids were calling him
emailing him he wasn't answering
and he went and moved in with his father and
I imagine he was doing a lot of
online fantasy dating who knows what but he just gone
and so I felt like
I was left to clean up this huge mess
and I didn't even know what to say to the kids because
it I really thought like
we're both gonna co parent and you're gonna
find a place and you're gonna be happy to have them and
I was looking
forward to having some weekends to myself finally and
doing my thing and he just he just was gone
so that was absolutely
heartbreaking that was the scariest thing
in my life because remember I was already terrified
of the relationship ending
and and having a non intact family ruin their lives
but I never
imagined they have a a parent that just abandoned them
yeah and and then you know I mean it it
the fatherhood absence is list
is is linked to higher delinquency
to mental health issues to
how people are doing in school and overall long term um
affects
and you you just have to be looking at that and
thinking my gosh what do I do yeah
yeah it was it was really bad and it was like right
it was right before Easter and um
I think it was like right before Easter break
that we actually told the kids and so I was scrambling
trying to find therapist we had this
we have this thing in town it's called
kids in crisis it's like this this resource
place for families
I remember going down there with the kids
and all these other things were closed
and I was just like I need names of therapists and
and I didn't even know where to start and I was thinking
we gotta get like individual therapists for them and um
and I remember my daughter we we couldn't
find like a really good one right away but for my son
I got so lucky I found this guy Mark
who was like a former
Hell's Angel type he's like this huge
guy and he'd show up on this big motorcycle he had
dropped out of high school but he had like two master's
degrees
and he was like big and gruff and he and my son really
really connected and um and
but they didn't talk about like therapeutic
stuff they they talked about debate
and politics and stuff that
like Izzy would talk about with his
his father in the past so I remember
thinking like when are they gonna get to the stuff
and and um I remember asking Mark about it and he said
let me do my job like I know what I'm doing
but the thing I need to do with your son
because of what he's dealt with is
we need to just establish that rapport
and then we'll get to that stuff
later but it was really hard I mean my son
um got very aggressive I didn't understand
what was happening but he would lash out at me and I
remember making threats sometimes being like I can't
cause my son's
like a lot bigger than me at the time too
I was like I'm gonna
have to take you to kids in crisis cause
cause like I can't
I I don't know how to deal with you and I
remember calling Mark one night
he's like that is the last thing you can you do because
right now Izzy's dealing with a parent
that's walked out of his life
and for you to also say I can't deal with you that's
that's the worst so it's really um healthy
that he's expressing
this anger and aggression cause he's getting it out
yeah so you gotta be strong and you gotta stand
stand by him and it'll ride
through and then we can really start getting to the work and he was so right but I it was terrifying
that's that has to be one of the hardest things
that you just have to deal with because you're facing
this personal
chaos
outside of that and then now your son is
acting the same way almost almost being your enemy
but what he's seeking is connection
right I mean he didn't want to be
he wanted to say like testing
are you gonna stay with me that's right
yeah yeah I mean we still like we we just recently
repainted his room and the door has like all of these
sparks on it and I said I wanna leave I wanna
leave the door he also has all these funky bumper
stickers from when he was a kid that I wanna keep
but I'm like it it reminds me of of how far we've come
yeah I had a guest named Tasha Shore
and I know her oh OK great yeah
I've interviewed her a couple of times
she's spectacular she is we and she
she talks a lot about aggression
yes and she says that aggression is a fear response
yeah and the way that I
analog your your son's behavior at that time
from what you've told me in that context is
he was afraid he was afraid he's just lost his father
he's afraid that he's gonna lose his mother
he doesn't know what the world is gonna look like and
the only reflex he has is aggression and it's a way of
testing you it's a way of seeking connection and you
I just can't believe how fortunate you were to have
that therapist in your life at that time
it's almost like divine intervention
I know Guardian Angel I still send him holiday cards
I think he's in like Alaska or Washington state
but I'm like you were you helped our family so much
oh that's that that's fantastic um so
so we got to the point
where it's been two years down the road
we've we've got the divorce finalized
and then there so there were another
another eight years of just
fighting and fighting and fighting how did it end
how did it eventually stop
well I mean so what happened was and
I'm very lucky because I didn't have a custody battle
I have to say that my son
actually said something really heartbreaking
a few years later he was like I wish you had
had a custody battle
because then he at least would have cared
enough to fight you for us and he didn't
so that was really sad
but the thing that brought us back that
I took him back to court for was um college so I'm
you know I used to be a high school English
teacher I have a master's
degree education is one of my core
values like everything is education and growing up
um when the you know when the kids were growing up
we used to see his family every week and
and get together with his super rich dad who was paying
for his other grandson's college
education and used to be like
you know I'm gonna pay for your kids college education
we'd all be like oh thank you so much thank you so much
and um of course he never did it
and so during the time as we were
you know when my ex and I were still together he said
we don't need to do a 5 29 college plan
because my dad's gonna pay for it you know the grandfather
said he'd take care of the grandkids education
so let's take that money and put it into my retirement
account that'll be ours
and we'll use your money for the day to day expenses
like my income
so you can imagine what happened of course
he kept the entire retirement
his father refused to pay and he refused to pay
and that was another threat
he had said if you divorce me I'm not paying
for our kids college education I was just like
not that he would pay only for but he's like I'm not paying a penny
right and I was I was so angry about that because
I felt like his father broke his word he broke his word
we put language in our agreement that said had we
stayed together of course we would have supported our
our children's college
education he has a college degree too
um and I felt like it was really
punishing the kids to hurt me
financially by by taking that stance
so when I went back to court
it was for what's called an educational support order
and in our state
um
especially because I had that language in the order that said
had we stayed together we both would have contributed
it was just a matter of deciding percentages
so I went back as a prose and
and dealt with that and did very well but it took for you know
it took like 9 months to
actually no it took a year cause it was December
of 2017 and I got orders in 2018 um
and then he wouldn't comply he just wouldn't
pay his share
and so that was more years in court and also in the process
um we I already knew that he hadn't
told the truth on what his called his financial affidavits
so we also put protective language in that said
um the numbers for child
support and alimony are based on what he provided
on the legal documents but if it ever is determined
that there was additional income
that that will trigger a modification so of course you
know he had 14 rental properties he kept putting zero
as income I was like
I'll deal with you later and I did and so I
I took that back too and
and ended up winning that stuff as well so
all of that those three motions plus Covid plus
you know him being angry and vengeful
about the fact that you know why should he have to contribute
anything since we got a divorce
that was what kept us in court all those years
it was maddening how destructive I mean it's just it
you know rather than spending all that energy
rather than spending all that money fighting
just go to an arrangement
well I always say that his lawyer
financially abused him far worse than
I ever could have or anyone because
his lawyer should have just said follow the order
just just pay what you're supposed to
you don't need to pay me for all these years and all these appearances
right just follow the order I mean that's what happened
yeah he didn't follow the order it was the agreement
it's stronger than a court order he agreed
to do these things and he just was like I don't
I don't have to so he ended up spending probably
four or six times as much
as what he would have had to do had he just
follow the order but that's why
um these cases are very very different
and in my my career with my partner
Chris we only deal with these crazy cases because
they have to be handled very delicately
and very differently than
normal divorce cause when
we talk about what goes on with us
um and our clients talk about their stories
no one could believe it cause it defies
logic why would somebody choose to
spend 6 times the amount if they had just
followed the order it's because there's
other psychological things going on yeah
a normal person
with a normally healthy relationship can't fathom
right that
it could go like that because it makes no sense
it's a lose lose why would anyone opt
for that and it's obvious it's not like
it's not like the data is not there
right and people think well everybody loves their kids
like who would do something like that why would you do that I
can't imagine abandoning my kids and that would
happen if I got a divorce
yeah I'd I'd be worried about maintaining
making sure that I had access to my children that's how
85 ish
plus percent of people are but then there's this
chunk of us that it's not like that that feel very
alone and very isolated
because you say what's going on and people are like
it must be something they almost don't believe you
they almost say
what have you done to like what is his side
right what what what have you
done to deserve this they don't understand
the nature of domestic violence
they don't understand personality disorders you know
it's just but it but it's not the same and there's so many people dealing with this kind of stuff
so now you've pivoted
you're leveraging this 10 this decade long war story as
as a way to help people avoid
and and and strategize in their own situations
is that right
yeah yeah that's that's been there got out
yeah I love that and so
you know what would you have done
differently or what should you have done differently
okay how much time if you had this situation
to live over again I mean there's there's
there's so many things I would have done differently um
but I think the first one was I would have taken
strategic oversight of my case well first of all
no backing up before that I
I would have known what narcissism
was I would have known a bit more about addiction
I wouldn't have thought I have to do this logically and
I would have educated myself a lot more
there's an excellent book called splitting
by a Guy Named Bill Eddie and it's about
dealing with narcissistic and borderline
personality disorders during a divorce
I unfortunately found that book like
a year and a half after I got divorced
after that first year but
it was right before my partner Chris
whose divorce took three years
that that book made him finally cross the finish
line and the author of its name is Bill Eddie
he is a former social worker turned
high conflict family lawyer turned
founder of what's called the High Conflict
Institute and I think he's actually based in San Diego
but um
anyway now we work with yeah governments and
businesses to reduce the level of conflict
and he actually wrote the forward to our upcoming
book which is very very exciting but um but anyway so
there's there's ways to deal with these people
very very differently and I think I would have
um been able to educate my my lawyer was wonderful but
neither of us knew what we were dealing with and we didn't understand
that the more engagement we had
just dragged it out longer
so I think we wouldn't have negotiated as much
we would I I would have taken a a firmer
stance on certain things I would have communicated
differently I think I would have um
stroked my ex's ego a lot more I would have uh
yeah I mean
the the post judgment stuff like all those years maybe
there could have been stuff I would have but that was
that was really financial and that was him not following
the order but um
but we see a lot of mistakes
made in terms of communication from the very beginning
yeah that's yeah that's fascinating I and I can imagine
I can imagine having having a coach
if that's your situation if you're in that situation
having a coach or having someone
I can imagine that it would be a very lonely experience
and that having someone like you
would be tremendously helpful
yeah well I think because people see things on TV
they hear
what we call Barstool Council like friends and
and other people saying
oh well this is what you should do this is what I did or this is what someone I know
but they don't understand like these cases are very
very different and even each of the high conflict
cases are are different
um so we often say to our clients
like you know your ex better than anyone
and no one else has to live with the consequences
of the decisions
you make now except for you and your family so
it's really really important to understand
what's going on
to understand every stage of the process to not
feel pressured into making decisions
just because you're exhausted
to think about the long term consequences
to realize like you can't just cut someone
out of your kid's lives
like you have to figure out a way
to co parent because even people in jail
have parenting rights and the impact on your children
is is not just till they're 18
it's it's for the rest of their lives absolutely um
my kids actually did recently um
reconnect with their their father
I thought it was like a done like he was gone
but that's
one of my friends was telling me the other day she said it's almost like
when a child's been adopted it
no matter how wonderful their adoptive
parents are they're still
curious so even when someone has left
you you still wanna you know you wanna
know and stuff and so but I do think that
a lot of the decisions he made in terms of how he
treated them or neglected them is impacting
you know whatever happens moving forward
so of course yeah and there's
it's interesting gonna be a lack of trust there
yeah yeah it's it's interesting because I think
my son has a very strong personality
and early on I thought hmm
my daughter's the one who's like
really really sensitive and she'll be affected more but
now they're young adults
and I actually think the opposite I think my son is a lot more vulnerable
maybe because he's a boy um
and also the relationship that he had
in the beginning and he was the one who chased
after his father
and I also see things in my partner Chris
whose father abandoned him
when when his parents got a divorce and he always
was kind of chasing love and I I kind of worry
about that I mean'cause that's what attracted
Chris my partner to his ex you know
getting involved with people who are more avoidant
and so I hope that doesn't happen I mean
my my son's had relationships and stuff but now that
his dad is kind of intermittently back I I wonder
you know I'm always worried that he's gonna get hurt
again
so we'll see
yeah and yeah that's you gotta take that risk I think
but I can't do anything
I mean it's his life and he's a grown up that's right
how do you you know how did you help
your son process the trauma
of the high conflict divorce um
you know without him feeling
like he has to man up and bury
his feelings and stuff did
you manage to thread that needle
yeah so that's that's an excellent question and um
and actually
years ago when my son was over the age of 18 he was
asked to be on a podcast called Slam the gavel where
the interviewer was asking
about what it was like being the child
of a high conflict divorce and
we gathered a bunch of questions
from our Instagram audience at the time of what
people wanted to know if you could ask a child
who's an adult and the the most popular
question was how did you what did your mom do
to help you get through this um I know it for me
and I'll tell you his answer in a second but for me
the most important thing was
shielding him from it like not talking about
stuff with his dad not talking about stuff with court I mean they saw
me in court they
they knew that I was busy
with court but like I go to my dad's office um in
another location and and spread
stuff out I didn't talk about it with them I just um
did what I had to do and it's
interesting cause my son said just
like a year ago he said oh I didn't know
I didn't know that dad sued you for defamation
like I didn't and I said oh
good yeah I'm glad you didn't know that
but when he was asked the question on the podcast
what did your mom do what
what helped you the most he said she kept it together
so I think me getting support for myself
taking care of myself
that was the best thing that I did for both
Izzy and his sister because
he never felt emotionally
responsible for me I think one time
very early in the process they
they made some comment I was driving
them to school and I started
crying they and I'm like pretty stoic
and they both were like oh my God
oh my God I'm so sorry mom I'm so sorry but I was just like
but I really tried to not show my sadness to them and
deal with stuff with
with friends I had a trauma therapist uh'cause I
I just didn't want them to feel like they had
to take care of me and apparently
they didn't so that's that's really
really good so that's fantastic self regulation
yeah well and and I just from my con
uh from my conversations with
other guests I can tell you that uh finding your son
men good role models to spend
time with and just the more time that they can spend
with healthy men um I I
I I just know that that made a difference and yes
and now I now you just made me think about that
so my my dad and I and and part
part of what's been so heartbreaking for me is
my dad and I are really really close my dad's 85
he's an identical twin
my dad and I have lunch every single week we meet
and have lunch together I love that yeah and so um
and I almost it's like I have two dads
because of the identical twin
thing and they work together and they
dress the same sometimes it's really wild
amazing wrestle oh my gosh
they don't wrestle now they're they're like kind of
you know yeah 85 is a little old to still yes but um
but my dad and I have always been really really close
and so
I I feel heartbroken that my kids don't have that but
um
but my dad was there for my kids and while I was dealing with all this I had to work on the weekends
and so my son became he
he actually became this national
debate champion so he's always having to be
to go to debates so I couldn't drive him and
part of my um he kind of resents
it but I'm like actually this was good for you is I
I can't do it you're gonna have to figure it out and so he
Learned how to use public transportation but my dad
would drive him like we'd figure out a way
my dad would pick him up and take him and his friends and stuff so he
he stepped in a lot as that role model
um you know and also parental figure for for Izzy
and another thing was with debate itself
so Izzy and his sister went to a high school
that didn't have sports it was like
this weird magnet school but it focused on technology
and technology and engineering and so um
and they they didn't have sports
but their big thing was the debate
team that was like the football team from
you know where it's like wow you're on the debate team
so Izzy was the debate captain and um his debate coach
oh who I have to get in touch with I just remembered
um his his debate coach became like a father figure
and Izzy was born arguing so this man like
really embraced
that talent which is yeah drove me crazy a lot um
and so he really helped Izzy shine
and Izzy actually was the
the speaker at his graduation
which unfortunately his father didn't even come to
but during his
speech which was heartbreaking he talked about
how his father wasn't there but his debate coach
really
stepped up for him and that he really appreciated
having that that man in his life so it is so
important to have those male figures that can step in
for boys and make them feel valued yeah
yeah that's you're you're so fortunate to have found
role models
like that and and and people like that or or um
that I I know that made a difference
just from from all the people I talked to
um let's talk about the new book uh
it's called when your ex turns your kids against you
and yeah oh I love it thank you yes um
you address a nightmare for many parents I can imagine
what are the practical tools that a parent
can use to to maintain
the role model status to not vilify the other parent
but while the other parent is actively
trying to dismantle it
this is such a huge topic and unfortunately I think
again it comes down to education and understanding
what alienation means because it usually starts
while you're still in the relationship with the person
like very subtle undermining like making
jokes about you to your kids minimizing your authority
I think back to
when I was still in in my relationship when Izzy
was a really little boy and um he would
you know do something that he got in trouble for and
and my background as a teacher I'd be like no you know like you're
sitting
down like you're not allowed to do whatever it was
and my ex would be like oh no no no
you don't need to listen to your mom you can take it back Izzy
and it really it not only undermined
my attempts to discipline
him and I'm not talking about punishment but just to teach him
yeah but Izzy grew up like pushing
boundaries and I think it's harmed him in a lot of
ways because because he's just like oh
I can just apologize and everything
is all better and it's like
made him a little bit less sensitive to people's feelings
it's not just
how you feel and what you think it's about
the responses to other people
and developing that empathy so um
that was a form of alienation
almost like oh Mom's really cranky
you know we don't need to listen to her
she's just this or oh you know you can take it back
I I didn't know what was
what was happening at the time
but that's one of those things um
yeah you don't even know
to set a boundary you you don't even realize that
that means that they're not on your side and and that
that that the other thing that the
the thing where you're working
together and you're on you have each other's backs
and no matter what even if you're wrong
they're gonna back you up
and then you're gonna have a chat about it later that
that experience is so foreign to you
you don't even know that it's a possibility yeah
yeah and you just think
okay maybe we just have different parenting styles but
right it's establishing
what's called loyalty conflicts where the kid
gravitates more towards one parent
than the other and especially
the target parent is made to feel like they
did something wrong and so as you get out of the
you know post separation
and and a lot of times with our clients it happens
while they're still together where the kids cut off one parent
who still lives in the house
and they want nothing to do with them
as soon as there's like a sign
that there's gonna be a separation because
they're not allowed to love both of you
again I'm not talking about
normal I'm talking about where there's like
um a personality disorder situation yeah yeah so so um
understanding
like all about what it actually means is gonna be very
helpful moving forward because
often once you do separate
and the kid comes back from the other parent's house
they will start spewing things at you
you know the other parent
says this about you and as if they believe it and it's very
very triggering because you feel like okay I got
away from this person and now my kid
is like a mini me of them and how do I deal with this
and so the instinct is to often
correct the record or say no that's not true
this is what it is or I didn't do that or I did
absolutely of course it is right
yeah it's one of the worst things you can do
and here's why that's right
yeah so with the X with your ex
they are telling your child what to think and usually
we talk about well one of the big alienation
factors we talk about is
sending poisonous messages about you
from the other parent that you are either unsafe
unloving or unavailable so
when they're coming at you and saying those things that they've heard from your other parent
who's bad mouthing you
um you wanna you wanna fix it but when you
fix it and you say no that's not true it's really this
it you are doing the same thing because you're telling
your child what to think
you're not showing respect for their ability
to figure out what's real and what's not and
you have to understand that children
generally love both parents
they consider both of you authorities
so when they're telling
one thing and you're saying another
a child experiences cognitive
dissonance cause they're like okay my parents
don't lie to me
but they're telling me completely different things
yeah so I don't know what to do like I I don't
I I I I don't know who to believe um so for you instead
to when they when they come at you with these
vicious messages they're basically parroting
what your ex is saying to them and you're just like this is crazy I can't believe this it's so harmful to my kid
is to put the truth to the side of what it actually is
and understand we have to deal with their feelings
first they're dealing with a lot of anger fear
sadness grief etcetera
so for you to sit there and take it not I'm not talking
about them being totally
disrespectful on and on and on but to understand
that they are they are really really suffering
so for you to just say I
let me hear what you have to say I'm so sorry
that you feel that way I wanna hear
more of like why you think I'm like that and get them to just keep talking
and talking and talking and just
take it and deal with the truth later
but be like I'm the one who's not gonna sit here and tell you you're not allowed to feel this you're not allowed to feel this you're not allowed to think this
I'm gonna just say
I'm here so defending yourself is essentially
not validating their feelings
and so they're just gonna get defensive
and they're just gonna fight you and then they're gonna believe
the thing you don't want them to believe
right whereas if you just
try to keep your distance and you inspect
their feelings you validate
their feelings and you inspect their rationale
the claims will fall apart on their own and then you
become the credible parent and and
the other parent is has is the the non credible parent
I mean I think back to that message from Mark that
is his therapist who is like even though he's raging at you
you have to stay firm like you cannot
just be like leave me alone go away yeah you know
and it makes me think of like what you mentioned Tasha
sure parenting boys peacefully um
she's got some amazing content and she talks about how
putting kids like when they're
explosive with you and you say you need to go sit
away like get away from me
that that basically is teaching kids that they have to
behave a certain way for your love
to be with you I know I
I struggle with this my my daughter who is
3 years old is going through a phase right now where
she gets really really ugly and
it's makes me really mad
and I don't want to be really mad at her and so like I
I feel like I have to get away from it
but I also know that getting away from it is punishing
her for
you know it is creating
that situation where she feels like she has to behave
and suppress what she feels in order
to be around me and I don't know how to manage that
I I well
okay so I mean I don't know if that's the same thing like my daughter
at 3 had her terrible twos at 3 and she like
it would be
nothing like I'd say do you do you want a cheese stick
I don't want that I'd be like okay
and then she'd be like I don't want and then it would blow up for an hour
screaming
and so I put her in a room and shut the window
so the neighbors didn't think I was killing her
because I thought
she just needs to blow it off and she did and it happened
every single day over nothing so right
I found that when I did engage
with her and it's different with different developmental levels
it would just cat
it would just extended and extended
almost like the fuss period
where it's like overstimulating
them they just you just need to like sit here
I'm not punishing you I'm just being like I
I can't help you I'm gonna take a break here yeah
right yeah yeah so it's yeah I think it's different
yeah it's it's definitely different and the the
the strategies and the tactics
are different for boys and girls
that's right and different ages
and different personalities so it has to be customized
but it is not easy but especially in the moment
it's almost like you need to have a plan
ahead of time you need to know this is what's gonna happen
how am I gonna deal with it cause it's happening
yeah yeah that's that is great advice
that is absolutely
great advice and you can you can do that exercise
just sit down for
15 20 minutes an hour whatever it is and just you know
map out the decision tree right
instead of having that toxic hope of like maybe today
they'll stop it's like no they're not
yeah they're not gonna stop today
yeah and it's it's important to do that analysis
and that planning
when you're removed from the situation because it's
then
and then you're kind of on autopilot you don't have to worry too much about what you're gonna do and
you could be proud of how you responded because
because you responded in a way that was thoughtful
because you could still think back when you came up with the plan
as opposed to when you're in the thick of it
you're in your other brain you're in the
what I call the Conan the barbarian brain and
you know there's no there's no planning
there's no thinking that's happening in that brain
yeah I think humor is also very very helpful
like I know when the kids were little and they be like really mad I'd be like oh my gosh you want me to like
I mean I do that too like I'm you want me to rip
my arm off or do you and they be like what
like just sort of surprise them
you know and
but as with all things there's attention there too
I I often deflect with humor and in ways that are
healthy and unhealthy and I once
got in a situation where
and so I was doing this to the boy all the time he would get very upset
and um
and this is something that I suspect
Tasha Shore would have advised me against
if I'd known about her back then she uh uh the boy
would would get very upset he'd start crying and
the crying I guess
made me feel like a bad dad and so I would try and stop the crying
I would stop the crying by making him laugh
and then and at one point in time
he's a wise little kid man
at one point in time he goes he goes
dad stop and he's like kind of lying laughing and
kind of crying he goes I'm so frustrated
you just won't let me feel what I feel wow
I was like oh my gosh he's totally right
like let me be sad man and
so yeah and so I started doing that and
there's attention like sometimes
I'll make him laugh and sometimes I'll
let him cry it out and
yeah it's different now it's it's it's so hard I know
um with my partner with Chris sometimes he'll be like
he he he'll recognize
he's like I as a man I feel like I I wanna
when you tell me things that are upsetting to you I just wanna fix it
but you don't want me to fix it sometimes you just want me to listen
I'm like
yeah yeah that's it is anathema to I think that's an
anathema to men in general
and it's particularly anathema to
guys like me who are engineers
you know you show me something broken I need to fix it
right and
like just sitting with the discomfort is not
it's not natural to me
yeah but that's so important to even recognize
yes is that I have to I have to
it's it's something that you have
control over and but it's it's not comfortable but I
I realize I don't think I answered
your question as one way to sort of prevent this
and I was interviewing a child psychiatrist
who happens to be local I met her in real life and
she's from Romania but she
she works with kids from 3 to like 20
and she said that kids
want two things more than anything else
control and attention
and so she talked about something called the 10 minute
rule that I think is applicable for any parent she said
if you for
10 minutes when you have time
you know when you're with your kid to say
I really like how you do this or I'm really
interested in something that you're interested in
so for example
even if it's a video game and I made this mistake I probably should have done this with
with Izzy when he was interested in video games
instead of being like I don't care about video games
I should have said you know what
I know you love this game can you show me
can you explain it to me and can you show me how to play it
where the kid feels
like they're leading and they have your full attention
and I think back to when I was a little girl like with my dad
part of why I think we
had this bond was because
he really did spend time with me like I
remember so many things
where he'd come home from work he'd stand
on his head in the middle of the living room and I
was a gymnast so I loved like we'd turn on music
I had two I've two sisters
so we just like dance around and act silly
he'd let us do he taught us how to do dive rolls
over him he would take me for walks every Sunday down
the hill to get the newspaper
at the store and he'd let me buy like a little thing from the vending machine
I still have all those little
plastic toys in my jewelry box from when I was a child
we would take walks for ice cream like we always
had something that we did together
that was just me and him even though
you know I had siblings
so spending that dedicated time
even when we didn't you know we
we didn't talk about like our feelings
or open up to anything
but as as I got older like he was always an athlete so
um he was a wrestler
and him and his brother would go down to Manhattan
to New York Athletic Club and they
they taught me how to keep time and I got to throw in the white towel
so I was part of that um wow
you know like he took me jogging
I I remember when I was 21 when I had my first like
awful heartbreak
yeah and I was just crying and crying in the bathroom I was back from college and my dad's
like we're gonna go out we're gonna go out for a jog
like you don't need to say anything to me
but I'm just gonna like keep this routine
that we've had all this time so having that steady
consistent presence in my life yeah I think is
that's that's really
helped me a lot and I think that for any
parent listening to have any kind of little rituals
like these are the things your kids are gonna remember
that is absolutely right I love that 10 minute ritual
um we we've abused Tasha Shore on this but she
she has a name for that
I think she calls it special time and it's exactly
it's exactly what that is it's 10 minutes the the child
uh directs
what the activities are and you know you just
and and it's one parent
per kid and each parent has their own special time
and uh it's
it's a beautiful suggestion I'm gonna implement that uh
today I'm gonna do it starting today I it
it is such an
important thing I'm so glad I found out about it yeah I
I think it's really made a difference with my own kids
yeah and spent making
sure I have time with them even as they're young adults
and and Izzy
was saying the other weekend
Izzy and I went up we took a road trip up to um
this cute little town in upstate Connecticut and we're just walking
around and Izzy said mom you know they say that um
that by the time a kid is 18
that they will have spent like 90%
of their time like the
like the time that you would have had
it's already 90% gone however you say it like yeah
now it's just a little bit of time because he's an adult
and he's like I I don't think we fit
that I think we still spend more than
10% of our time together so yeah I'm really
happy about that what a what a what a profound
and kind of horrifying
thing is 90% of the time you spend with your kid
they're underage they're 18
yeah and then and then it's how brutal
I know I know how brutal
but it doesn't have to be true
it doesn't yeah that's right but it's you establishing
a relationship where your kids
wanna spend time with you that's right when they
become adults too yeah
like me and my dad having lunch every week I want to
yeah it's not true for your dad yeah you're you're
that's not true for your dad I love that yeah
I love that well I have I I at least I've absolutely
loved
this conversation before I let you get out of here
um I I really like to ask everybody
uh the same question uh to finish things off and so um
if you're standing in the gap for the next generation
and you can only convey
you can give a parent one principle
to help them raise a son of virtue and
emotional intelligence and excellence what
what is that principle what is the raising men
bottom line for you
it it kind of goes into what we were just talking
about is the most important thing
is to establish a relationship with your son
where they feel like they can talk to you about
whatever it is that will
protect them from all kinds of abuse
with not just you know
scary people but even in the workplace
where they can tell you anything I think it's so
important especially for boys who have a hard time
opening up our culture does that to them
they're not allowed to express themselves
but where you have a son or a daughter
and I have both and so to you
where they they feel like they can tell you anything
and you're not gonna
come at them or judge them you're just gonna accept it
I think it's it's really helpful for them
and also as a parent to feel like my kid wants to spend
time with me like that makes me feel really happy
we just went to Alaska together
that was my daughter's graduation
present it was just me her and Izzy and we did a huge
road
trip and went all over and it was one of my favorite
vacations and I thought I am so lucky
that I have these kids who actually uh are taking
their vacation
time to spend with me of course after as he was like mom you drove me crazy
we're never sharing right cab together
we we don't need to spend so much time together
next time we're getting separate lodging but right
but we did have a pretty good time so I think
doing what you can to cultivate
a relationship with your child because
the people I work with there's a lot of situations
where kids cut off a parent
so you want to make yourself bulletproof to that
and that starts with you taking
the time even those 10 minutes a day
to really focus on on your kid
because this is gonna be your your family
like for the rest of your life
yeah so why not do why not
do the best you can you don't have a choice you
of whether or
not these people are gonna be in your family they're
you're stuck with them you might as well make it awesome
yeah or or try yeah yeah
yeah do what you can to make it awesome right yeah
I love that sentiment thank you so much Lisa for
for for spending the time
I really appreciate it's been wonderful having you
on raising men no my pleasure
the book is called when your ex
turns your kids against you you can find that and more
with the links in the show notes
remember you are a great parent
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino