1 00:00:00,166 --> 00:00:03,200 they will start spewing things at you 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,533 you know the other parent says this about you and 3 00:00:05,533 --> 00:00:08,000 and as if they believe it and it's very very triggering 4 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,300 because you feel like okay I got 5 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:11,666 away from this person and now my kid 6 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:15,533 is like a mini me of them and how do I deal with this 7 00:00:15,533 --> 00:00:18,000 and so the instinct is to often 8 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,033 correct the record or say no that's not true 9 00:00:21,066 --> 00:00:23,666 this is what it is or I didn't do that or I did 10 00:00:23,666 --> 00:00:25,366 absolutely of course it is right 11 00:00:25,466 --> 00:00:27,500 yeah it's one of the worst things you can do 12 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:38,900 welcome back to raising men parenting is hard 13 00:00:38,966 --> 00:00:41,800 at the best of times but it takes on uniquely 14 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,666 difficult challenges in the middle of a storm 15 00:00:44,666 --> 00:00:48,266 of a high conflict divorce so how do you provide 16 00:00:48,466 --> 00:00:51,300 emotional safety and moral stability to your son 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,700 when your partner becomes your opponent 18 00:00:55,366 --> 00:00:56,533 our guest today 19 00:00:56,533 --> 00:01:00,500 is Lisa Johnson she's the co founder of been there 20 00:01:00,733 --> 00:01:04,433 got out and the author of a new book when your ex 21 00:01:04,733 --> 00:01:08,200 turns your kids against you Lisa is a high 22 00:01:08,266 --> 00:01:11,166 conflict divorce strategist and a certified 23 00:01:11,366 --> 00:01:12,400 domestic violence 24 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,166 advocate who has turned a grueling personal journey 25 00:01:15,366 --> 00:01:18,766 into a roadmap for others Lisa's testimony was 26 00:01:18,766 --> 00:01:21,466 instrumental in passing Jennifer's Law in Connecticut 27 00:01:21,566 --> 00:01:23,133 which expanded the legal 28 00:01:23,133 --> 00:01:25,300 definition of domestic violence to include 29 00:01:25,533 --> 00:01:29,066 coercive control which is a pernicious form of abuse 30 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,300 she's here to help us tackle some tough questions 31 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,433 hopefully we won't have to face 32 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,766 but Lisa's inspiring personal story and her lessons 33 00:01:37,900 --> 00:01:38,533 are instructed 34 00:01:38,533 --> 00:01:40,833 to parents in healthy relationships also 35 00:01:40,966 --> 00:01:42,966 Lisa welcome to the show 36 00:01:43,100 --> 00:01:45,666 wow Shawn what an introduction thank you 37 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:46,966 well let's 38 00:01:46,966 --> 00:01:50,500 first of all I I find I your story is absolutely 39 00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:51,000 amazing 40 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,666 so why don't you just start with sharing with us 41 00:01:54,566 --> 00:01:55,400 alright so 42 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,166 just tell me where to start cause I am a talker and I 43 00:01:59,700 --> 00:02:00,566 that's great 44 00:02:01,533 --> 00:02:02,800 let's begin at the beginning 45 00:02:02,966 --> 00:02:06,066 at some point you were married you had kids 46 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,166 yeah and it started going sour what happened 47 00:02:10,133 --> 00:02:11,300 well actually 48 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:15,200 I didn't think it started going sour it was kind of 49 00:02:15,700 --> 00:02:19,700 an explosion I basically was with my ex for 50 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:22,466 20 years we were married for nearly 18 51 00:02:22,566 --> 00:02:24,700 I thought he was my best friend we got 52 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:28,200 along pretty well we had two kids together you know 53 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,833 red flags hindsight's always 20 20 but sure um 54 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,533 two years before our actual divorce 55 00:02:34,533 --> 00:02:37,566 I discovered that he had been living a double life 56 00:02:37,666 --> 00:02:42,033 that he had been soliciting other women for the entire 57 00:02:42,166 --> 00:02:44,266 relationship things started 58 00:02:44,266 --> 00:02:49,966 coming out that were at the tip of the iceberg and it was just more and more and more and I was 59 00:02:49,966 --> 00:02:51,100 absolutely 60 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,500 um flabbergasted and so we 61 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:59,600 decide I in my mind at the time it was like I will do 62 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:01,700 anything to keep this family 63 00:03:01,700 --> 00:03:02,733 together because I had the 64 00:03:02,733 --> 00:03:05,300 idea that you had to have an intact family 65 00:03:05,333 --> 00:03:07,800 or the kids lives would be ruined and my ex 66 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,700 used to say that cause he knew that mattered 67 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:12,733 so much to me he said if you divorce me 68 00:03:12,733 --> 00:03:15,166 you're gonna ruin their lives so 69 00:03:15,166 --> 00:03:17,500 I stayed in it it took two years we 70 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:18,600 um you know to finally 71 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,800 get out but um we went through three rounds of couples 72 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,700 counseling all kinds of 73 00:03:23,966 --> 00:03:26,866 crazy crazy stuff and then um 74 00:03:26,933 --> 00:03:29,433 when I finally met with a divorce attorney 75 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,366 uh he told me within 20 minutes yours 76 00:03:32,366 --> 00:03:35,166 is gonna be one of the really bad ones and I thought 77 00:03:35,166 --> 00:03:37,900 that is crazy like how did he know that 78 00:03:37,900 --> 00:03:39,166 but I really I always say I 79 00:03:39,166 --> 00:03:41,600 I really believed at the time that my ex 80 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,300 was a good person who had done some bad things 81 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:46,066 I thought this would be amicable 82 00:03:46,066 --> 00:03:49,500 we had spent two years trying to work things out um 83 00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:52,166 and that we would go to mediation 84 00:03:52,166 --> 00:03:54,533 it would be done I remember being terrified 85 00:03:54,533 --> 00:03:57,666 that my divorce was gonna cost a $10,000 86 00:03:57,733 --> 00:03:59,566 I had heard that was the average it cost 87 00:03:59,566 --> 00:04:02,400 10 times that amount in the first year 88 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,866 and then I was in court for 10 years total 89 00:04:04,966 --> 00:04:07,566 so my divorce attorney was right it 90 00:04:07,566 --> 00:04:10,866 again it cost $100,000 that first year 91 00:04:10,866 --> 00:04:14,266 and took a full year and at the end of that year 92 00:04:14,266 --> 00:04:15,900 my divorce attorney who 93 00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:17,466 became like one of my best friends 94 00:04:17,466 --> 00:04:20,266 that year of course cause we had such an intimate relationship cause we spent 95 00:04:20,266 --> 00:04:22,833 so much time together he said yours 96 00:04:22,966 --> 00:04:26,800 is he is not going to follow this agreement um 97 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,766 you cannot afford me he's going to financially 98 00:04:29,766 --> 00:04:31,700 decimate you he's gonna continue to do it 99 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:34,300 so you need to go on your own 100 00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:39,100 I'll be here on the background but we'll probably get you some paralegal if you need it and you need to start building 101 00:04:39,100 --> 00:04:40,466 your case now 102 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:46,066 so he was right I went on my path my pro 103 00:04:46,066 --> 00:04:48,600 se or self represented journey um 104 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,866 it took about a year and nine months for me to sort of catch my breath 105 00:04:51,866 --> 00:04:53,500 and put together a really 106 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:56,800 powerful case and then I went back pro 107 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,800 se or pro per in California it's also called and then 108 00:05:01,333 --> 00:05:04,133 another seven and a half years about a hundredish 109 00:05:04,133 --> 00:05:06,866 court appearances in two states um 110 00:05:07,300 --> 00:05:08,500 including him appealing 111 00:05:08,500 --> 00:05:10,533 four times me representing myself 112 00:05:10,533 --> 00:05:12,933 at the appellate court level um 113 00:05:12,933 --> 00:05:16,533 even though I was told oh you better not do that cause it's a really big deal 114 00:05:16,533 --> 00:05:19,700 and me saying well I don't wanna spend $15,000 115 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:20,500 to have someone else 116 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:22,833 speak for me when I've already done so well 117 00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:26,966 so not only won that case but then um it was notable 118 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,166 enough to be published as case law 119 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,300 so that's one of my biggest triumphs because 120 00:05:32,366 --> 00:05:33,866 for a lawyer to get published 121 00:05:33,866 --> 00:05:38,766 is a really big deal and everyone I've ever spoken to is like I have never heard of a prose 122 00:05:38,766 --> 00:05:41,500 getting published so that was something 123 00:05:41,533 --> 00:05:43,400 then of course the Jennifer's Law 124 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,733 being involved with that and then um 125 00:05:45,733 --> 00:05:47,133 my ex actually sued 126 00:05:47,133 --> 00:05:50,466 my partner and I for $4 million in defamation 127 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,366 in civil court that was like year 9 128 00:05:53,466 --> 00:05:55,300 when it was like almost ending 129 00:05:55,300 --> 00:05:57,900 so we we got that thrown out um 130 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:00,366 finally but it was just like having 131 00:06:00,733 --> 00:06:05,433 a terrorist for all those years and to this day still 132 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:08,466 sometimes going to the mailbox I I 133 00:06:08,466 --> 00:06:11,266 flinch because I'm like what's what fresh hell 134 00:06:11,266 --> 00:06:14,100 might be awaiting me you know 135 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,000 things like that but that's brutal and it's not I mean 136 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,066 you're you're entwined 137 00:06:19,066 --> 00:06:20,400 forever because you have kids 138 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,566 with this person and so it's not just like getting married 139 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,666 you you have kids too and you know 140 00:06:26,866 --> 00:06:29,633 that's the father of your children what I mean 141 00:06:29,666 --> 00:06:33,033 it's not like you can just not deal with each other 142 00:06:33,133 --> 00:06:37,266 no and that did not go as planned either 143 00:06:37,933 --> 00:06:38,900 tell me about that 144 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,266 so we went to when I 145 00:06:41,266 --> 00:06:42,566 when I first met my lawyer 146 00:06:42,566 --> 00:06:45,800 he said I think the best thing for you to do is go to mediation 147 00:06:45,966 --> 00:06:48,666 and just have me in the background don't even tell your 148 00:06:48,666 --> 00:06:50,166 your ex that you have an attorney 149 00:06:50,166 --> 00:06:52,733 just meet individually with a mediator um 150 00:06:52,733 --> 00:06:53,966 and this is something we advise 151 00:06:53,966 --> 00:06:55,666 to our clients who can handle it 152 00:06:55,666 --> 00:06:58,500 and so we managed to get a really good parenting plan 153 00:06:58,666 --> 00:07:00,500 um that said we had joint 154 00:07:00,533 --> 00:07:04,200 physical and legal custody meaning we shared decisions 155 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,500 but my ex never showed up 156 00:07:06,966 --> 00:07:09,300 oh he completely just left he didn't 157 00:07:09,533 --> 00:07:11,733 he he didn't do a single visitation 158 00:07:11,733 --> 00:07:14,900 I was trying to reach him and I was like where are you 159 00:07:14,933 --> 00:07:18,633 right before um well actually it was it might have been 160 00:07:18,766 --> 00:07:22,166 I don't remember if it was the day we told the kids 161 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,800 that we were getting a divorce but he had a key ring 162 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,266 and you know like on your key ring 163 00:07:27,266 --> 00:07:29,133 sometimes you have those little cards like for 164 00:07:29,133 --> 00:07:30,300 for the supermarket 165 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:32,466 or like the library things like that that you kind of 166 00:07:32,466 --> 00:07:34,766 scan so I distinctly 167 00:07:34,766 --> 00:07:37,666 remember when it was like we're getting a divorce 168 00:07:37,766 --> 00:07:41,400 right in front of our son who was maybe 14 at the time 169 00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:45,200 he had a a key ring for the YMCA and the library 170 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,466 cause he used to take our son to the library and drop them off at the YMCA 171 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,766 and he took them off and threw them on the table and said I guess I don't need these anymore and I was like 172 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:58,400 what and he basically walked out and especially 173 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,766 for those first 10 days he just disappeared 174 00:08:00,766 --> 00:08:02,466 the kids were calling him 175 00:08:02,533 --> 00:08:05,166 emailing him he wasn't answering 176 00:08:05,533 --> 00:08:08,633 and he went and moved in with his father and 177 00:08:08,733 --> 00:08:11,600 I imagine he was doing a lot of 178 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:16,266 online fantasy dating who knows what but he just gone 179 00:08:16,266 --> 00:08:17,533 and so I felt like 180 00:08:17,533 --> 00:08:21,100 I was left to clean up this huge mess 181 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:24,200 and I didn't even know what to say to the kids because 182 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,666 it I really thought like 183 00:08:26,666 --> 00:08:29,033 we're both gonna co parent and you're gonna 184 00:08:29,133 --> 00:08:31,600 find a place and you're gonna be happy to have them and 185 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:32,300 I was looking 186 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:35,233 forward to having some weekends to myself finally and 187 00:08:35,366 --> 00:08:38,033 doing my thing and he just he just was gone 188 00:08:38,066 --> 00:08:39,533 so that was absolutely 189 00:08:39,533 --> 00:08:41,900 heartbreaking that was the scariest thing 190 00:08:41,966 --> 00:08:45,433 in my life because remember I was already terrified 191 00:08:45,566 --> 00:08:47,400 of the relationship ending 192 00:08:47,566 --> 00:08:51,133 and and having a non intact family ruin their lives 193 00:08:51,133 --> 00:08:51,766 but I never 194 00:08:51,766 --> 00:08:55,266 imagined they have a a parent that just abandoned them 195 00:08:55,266 --> 00:08:57,200 yeah and and then you know I mean it it 196 00:08:57,300 --> 00:08:58,700 the fatherhood absence is list 197 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:01,500 is is linked to higher delinquency 198 00:09:01,566 --> 00:09:03,600 to mental health issues to 199 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,366 how people are doing in school and overall long term um 200 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:08,500 affects 201 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,100 and you you just have to be looking at that and 202 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:14,666 thinking my gosh what do I do yeah 203 00:09:14,666 --> 00:09:17,600 yeah it was it was really bad and it was like right 204 00:09:17,666 --> 00:09:21,533 it was right before Easter and um 205 00:09:21,533 --> 00:09:23,733 I think it was like right before Easter break 206 00:09:23,733 --> 00:09:27,500 that we actually told the kids and so I was scrambling 207 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,800 trying to find therapist we had this 208 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:31,166 we have this thing in town it's called 209 00:09:31,166 --> 00:09:33,866 kids in crisis it's like this this resource 210 00:09:33,866 --> 00:09:34,866 place for families 211 00:09:34,866 --> 00:09:36,833 I remember going down there with the kids 212 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:39,033 and all these other things were closed 213 00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:41,966 and I was just like I need names of therapists and 214 00:09:41,966 --> 00:09:43,733 and I didn't even know where to start and I was thinking 215 00:09:43,733 --> 00:09:47,600 we gotta get like individual therapists for them and um 216 00:09:48,066 --> 00:09:50,466 and I remember my daughter we we couldn't 217 00:09:50,466 --> 00:09:53,500 find like a really good one right away but for my son 218 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:56,666 I got so lucky I found this guy Mark 219 00:09:56,766 --> 00:09:58,566 who was like a former 220 00:09:58,666 --> 00:10:00,766 Hell's Angel type he's like this huge 221 00:10:00,766 --> 00:10:04,866 guy and he'd show up on this big motorcycle he had 222 00:10:04,866 --> 00:10:07,700 dropped out of high school but he had like two master's 223 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:08,633 degrees 224 00:10:08,766 --> 00:10:12,200 and he was like big and gruff and he and my son really 225 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,533 really connected and um and 226 00:10:15,533 --> 00:10:17,700 but they didn't talk about like therapeutic 227 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,000 stuff they they talked about debate 228 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,733 and politics and stuff that 229 00:10:21,733 --> 00:10:23,700 like Izzy would talk about with his 230 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:26,200 his father in the past so I remember 231 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,066 thinking like when are they gonna get to the stuff 232 00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:32,900 and and um I remember asking Mark about it and he said 233 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:35,733 let me do my job like I know what I'm doing 234 00:10:35,733 --> 00:10:37,933 but the thing I need to do with your son 235 00:10:37,933 --> 00:10:39,633 because of what he's dealt with is 236 00:10:39,833 --> 00:10:42,800 we need to just establish that rapport 237 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,466 and then we'll get to that stuff 238 00:10:44,533 --> 00:10:47,066 later but it was really hard I mean my son 239 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,333 um got very aggressive I didn't understand 240 00:10:50,333 --> 00:10:53,966 what was happening but he would lash out at me and I 241 00:10:53,966 --> 00:10:56,333 remember making threats sometimes being like I can't 242 00:10:56,333 --> 00:10:56,800 cause my son's 243 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:58,766 like a lot bigger than me at the time too 244 00:10:58,766 --> 00:10:59,566 I was like I'm gonna 245 00:10:59,566 --> 00:11:01,400 have to take you to kids in crisis cause 246 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:02,666 cause like I can't 247 00:11:02,666 --> 00:11:04,600 I I don't know how to deal with you and I 248 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,400 remember calling Mark one night 249 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,833 he's like that is the last thing you can you do because 250 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,133 right now Izzy's dealing with a parent 251 00:11:12,133 --> 00:11:13,800 that's walked out of his life 252 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,500 and for you to also say I can't deal with you that's 253 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:20,566 that's the worst so it's really um healthy 254 00:11:20,566 --> 00:11:21,733 that he's expressing 255 00:11:21,733 --> 00:11:24,166 this anger and aggression cause he's getting it out 256 00:11:24,166 --> 00:11:27,033 yeah so you gotta be strong and you gotta stand 257 00:11:27,066 --> 00:11:29,100 stand by him and it'll ride 258 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:33,700 through and then we can really start getting to the work and he was so right but I it was terrifying 259 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,466 that's that has to be one of the hardest things 260 00:11:36,466 --> 00:11:38,666 that you just have to deal with because you're facing 261 00:11:38,666 --> 00:11:39,700 this personal 262 00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:41,100 chaos 263 00:11:41,866 --> 00:11:45,800 outside of that and then now your son is 264 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,366 acting the same way almost almost being your enemy 265 00:11:48,366 --> 00:11:50,766 but what he's seeking is connection 266 00:11:51,166 --> 00:11:52,666 right I mean he didn't want to be 267 00:11:52,666 --> 00:11:54,166 he wanted to say like testing 268 00:11:54,166 --> 00:11:56,400 are you gonna stay with me that's right 269 00:11:56,566 --> 00:11:59,466 yeah yeah I mean we still like we we just recently 270 00:11:59,466 --> 00:12:03,066 repainted his room and the door has like all of these 271 00:12:03,066 --> 00:12:05,566 sparks on it and I said I wanna leave I wanna 272 00:12:05,566 --> 00:12:07,566 leave the door he also has all these funky bumper 273 00:12:07,566 --> 00:12:09,533 stickers from when he was a kid that I wanna keep 274 00:12:09,533 --> 00:12:13,066 but I'm like it it reminds me of of how far we've come 275 00:12:13,166 --> 00:12:17,033 yeah I had a guest named Tasha Shore 276 00:12:17,566 --> 00:12:20,833 and I know her oh OK great yeah 277 00:12:21,166 --> 00:12:22,900 I've interviewed her a couple of times 278 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:27,266 she's spectacular she is we and she 279 00:12:27,466 --> 00:12:29,766 she talks a lot about aggression 280 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,800 yes and she says that aggression is a fear response 281 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,566 yeah and the way that I 282 00:12:38,166 --> 00:12:41,066 analog your your son's behavior at that time 283 00:12:41,066 --> 00:12:44,300 from what you've told me in that context is 284 00:12:44,366 --> 00:12:47,466 he was afraid he was afraid he's just lost his father 285 00:12:47,666 --> 00:12:49,500 he's afraid that he's gonna lose his mother 286 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:53,866 he doesn't know what the world is gonna look like and 287 00:12:53,933 --> 00:13:00,066 the only reflex he has is aggression and it's a way of 288 00:13:00,066 --> 00:13:05,500 testing you it's a way of seeking connection and you 289 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,033 I just can't believe how fortunate you were to have 290 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:11,666 that therapist in your life at that time 291 00:13:11,866 --> 00:13:14,766 it's almost like divine intervention 292 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,566 I know Guardian Angel I still send him holiday cards 293 00:13:17,566 --> 00:13:20,366 I think he's in like Alaska or Washington state 294 00:13:20,366 --> 00:13:23,900 but I'm like you were you helped our family so much 295 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:28,366 oh that's that that's fantastic um so 296 00:13:28,366 --> 00:13:29,566 so we got to the point 297 00:13:29,566 --> 00:13:31,900 where it's been two years down the road 298 00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:34,300 we've we've got the divorce finalized 299 00:13:34,333 --> 00:13:36,266 and then there so there were another 300 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:38,766 another eight years of just 301 00:13:38,766 --> 00:13:40,866 fighting and fighting and fighting how did it end 302 00:13:40,866 --> 00:13:42,400 how did it eventually stop 303 00:13:42,966 --> 00:13:45,500 well I mean so what happened was and 304 00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:48,233 I'm very lucky because I didn't have a custody battle 305 00:13:48,366 --> 00:13:49,866 I have to say that my son 306 00:13:49,866 --> 00:13:52,166 actually said something really heartbreaking 307 00:13:52,333 --> 00:13:54,333 a few years later he was like I wish you had 308 00:13:54,333 --> 00:13:55,566 had a custody battle 309 00:13:55,766 --> 00:13:58,833 because then he at least would have cared 310 00:13:58,933 --> 00:14:00,866 enough to fight you for us and he didn't 311 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,500 so that was really sad 312 00:14:02,766 --> 00:14:05,366 but the thing that brought us back that 313 00:14:05,366 --> 00:14:09,166 I took him back to court for was um college so I'm 314 00:14:09,166 --> 00:14:10,566 you know I used to be a high school English 315 00:14:10,566 --> 00:14:11,600 teacher I have a master's 316 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,700 degree education is one of my core 317 00:14:13,733 --> 00:14:18,100 values like everything is education and growing up 318 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,266 um when the you know when the kids were growing up 319 00:14:20,266 --> 00:14:22,733 we used to see his family every week and 320 00:14:22,733 --> 00:14:25,466 and get together with his super rich dad who was paying 321 00:14:25,466 --> 00:14:26,933 for his other grandson's college 322 00:14:26,933 --> 00:14:28,533 education and used to be like 323 00:14:28,533 --> 00:14:30,900 you know I'm gonna pay for your kids college education 324 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:33,300 we'd all be like oh thank you so much thank you so much 325 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:36,366 and um of course he never did it 326 00:14:36,366 --> 00:14:38,466 and so during the time as we were 327 00:14:38,466 --> 00:14:40,800 you know when my ex and I were still together he said 328 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,966 we don't need to do a 5 29 college plan 329 00:14:44,066 --> 00:14:46,966 because my dad's gonna pay for it you know the grandfather 330 00:14:46,966 --> 00:14:48,700 said he'd take care of the grandkids education 331 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:51,966 so let's take that money and put it into my retirement 332 00:14:51,966 --> 00:14:53,866 account that'll be ours 333 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,666 and we'll use your money for the day to day expenses 334 00:14:56,666 --> 00:14:57,766 like my income 335 00:14:57,900 --> 00:14:59,800 so you can imagine what happened of course 336 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,766 he kept the entire retirement 337 00:15:01,766 --> 00:15:04,833 his father refused to pay and he refused to pay 338 00:15:04,966 --> 00:15:06,166 and that was another threat 339 00:15:06,166 --> 00:15:08,366 he had said if you divorce me I'm not paying 340 00:15:08,366 --> 00:15:10,333 for our kids college education I was just like 341 00:15:10,333 --> 00:15:13,766 not that he would pay only for but he's like I'm not paying a penny 342 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:17,333 right and I was I was so angry about that because 343 00:15:17,333 --> 00:15:21,266 I felt like his father broke his word he broke his word 344 00:15:21,266 --> 00:15:23,766 we put language in our agreement that said had we 345 00:15:23,766 --> 00:15:26,133 stayed together of course we would have supported our 346 00:15:26,133 --> 00:15:27,166 our children's college 347 00:15:27,166 --> 00:15:29,266 education he has a college degree too 348 00:15:29,333 --> 00:15:30,733 um and I felt like it was really 349 00:15:30,733 --> 00:15:33,233 punishing the kids to hurt me 350 00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:35,966 financially by by taking that stance 351 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:37,833 so when I went back to court 352 00:15:37,866 --> 00:15:40,900 it was for what's called an educational support order 353 00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:42,100 and in our state 354 00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:43,066 um 355 00:15:43,066 --> 00:15:45,466 especially because I had that language in the order that said 356 00:15:45,466 --> 00:15:48,666 had we stayed together we both would have contributed 357 00:15:48,666 --> 00:15:51,066 it was just a matter of deciding percentages 358 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,966 so I went back as a prose and 359 00:15:53,966 --> 00:15:57,466 and dealt with that and did very well but it took for you know 360 00:15:58,066 --> 00:15:59,733 it took like 9 months to 361 00:15:59,733 --> 00:16:02,100 actually no it took a year cause it was December 362 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:05,800 of 2017 and I got orders in 2018 um 363 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,366 and then he wouldn't comply he just wouldn't 364 00:16:08,366 --> 00:16:09,300 pay his share 365 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:13,233 and so that was more years in court and also in the process 366 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,300 um we I already knew that he hadn't 367 00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:19,500 told the truth on what his called his financial affidavits 368 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,566 so we also put protective language in that said 369 00:16:22,666 --> 00:16:24,333 um the numbers for child 370 00:16:24,333 --> 00:16:26,933 support and alimony are based on what he provided 371 00:16:26,933 --> 00:16:30,266 on the legal documents but if it ever is determined 372 00:16:30,333 --> 00:16:32,000 that there was additional income 373 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,300 that that will trigger a modification so of course you 374 00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:38,366 know he had 14 rental properties he kept putting zero 375 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:39,866 as income I was like 376 00:16:41,066 --> 00:16:43,866 I'll deal with you later and I did and so I 377 00:16:43,866 --> 00:16:45,500 I took that back too and 378 00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:47,700 and ended up winning that stuff as well so 379 00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:51,633 all of that those three motions plus Covid plus 380 00:16:51,766 --> 00:16:55,133 you know him being angry and vengeful 381 00:16:55,133 --> 00:16:57,733 about the fact that you know why should he have to contribute 382 00:16:57,733 --> 00:16:59,733 anything since we got a divorce 383 00:16:59,733 --> 00:17:02,166 that was what kept us in court all those years 384 00:17:02,366 --> 00:17:06,066 it was maddening how destructive I mean it's just it 385 00:17:06,066 --> 00:17:07,933 you know rather than spending all that energy 386 00:17:07,933 --> 00:17:09,966 rather than spending all that money fighting 387 00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:12,266 just go to an arrangement 388 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,266 well I always say that his lawyer 389 00:17:14,266 --> 00:17:16,833 financially abused him far worse than 390 00:17:16,866 --> 00:17:19,100 I ever could have or anyone because 391 00:17:19,266 --> 00:17:22,266 his lawyer should have just said follow the order 392 00:17:22,333 --> 00:17:24,166 just just pay what you're supposed to 393 00:17:24,166 --> 00:17:27,166 you don't need to pay me for all these years and all these appearances 394 00:17:27,166 --> 00:17:29,600 right just follow the order I mean that's what happened 395 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,166 yeah he didn't follow the order it was the agreement 396 00:17:32,166 --> 00:17:34,600 it's stronger than a court order he agreed 397 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,566 to do these things and he just was like I don't 398 00:17:37,566 --> 00:17:40,166 I don't have to so he ended up spending probably 399 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,400 four or six times as much 400 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,366 as what he would have had to do had he just 401 00:17:45,466 --> 00:17:47,500 follow the order but that's why 402 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,000 um these cases are very very different 403 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,100 and in my my career with my partner 404 00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:55,200 Chris we only deal with these crazy cases because 405 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,166 they have to be handled very delicately 406 00:17:57,166 --> 00:17:58,600 and very differently than 407 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,100 normal divorce cause when 408 00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:02,400 we talk about what goes on with us 409 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,133 um and our clients talk about their stories 410 00:18:04,133 --> 00:18:06,133 no one could believe it cause it defies 411 00:18:06,133 --> 00:18:08,766 logic why would somebody choose to 412 00:18:08,766 --> 00:18:11,600 spend 6 times the amount if they had just 413 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:12,966 followed the order it's because there's 414 00:18:12,966 --> 00:18:15,033 other psychological things going on yeah 415 00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:16,700 a normal person 416 00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:19,766 with a normally healthy relationship can't fathom 417 00:18:20,066 --> 00:18:21,100 right that 418 00:18:21,133 --> 00:18:23,900 it could go like that because it makes no sense 419 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:26,300 it's a lose lose why would anyone opt 420 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:28,433 for that and it's obvious it's not like 421 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,300 it's not like the data is not there 422 00:18:31,733 --> 00:18:34,800 right and people think well everybody loves their kids 423 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,566 like who would do something like that why would you do that I 424 00:18:37,566 --> 00:18:39,966 can't imagine abandoning my kids and that would 425 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,433 happen if I got a divorce 426 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:44,800 yeah I'd I'd be worried about maintaining 427 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,833 making sure that I had access to my children that's how 428 00:18:47,866 --> 00:18:49,366 85 ish 429 00:18:49,366 --> 00:18:52,500 plus percent of people are but then there's this 430 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:56,133 chunk of us that it's not like that that feel very 431 00:18:56,133 --> 00:18:57,400 alone and very isolated 432 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,033 because you say what's going on and people are like 433 00:19:00,133 --> 00:19:01,900 it must be something they almost don't believe you 434 00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:02,966 they almost say 435 00:19:03,133 --> 00:19:05,833 what have you done to like what is his side 436 00:19:06,333 --> 00:19:08,000 right what what what have you 437 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,066 done to deserve this they don't understand 438 00:19:10,066 --> 00:19:11,366 the nature of domestic violence 439 00:19:11,366 --> 00:19:14,500 they don't understand personality disorders you know 440 00:19:14,566 --> 00:19:19,366 it's just but it but it's not the same and there's so many people dealing with this kind of stuff 441 00:19:20,466 --> 00:19:22,666 so now you've pivoted 442 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:29,066 you're leveraging this 10 this decade long war story as 443 00:19:29,066 --> 00:19:31,300 as a way to help people avoid 444 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:33,866 and and and strategize in their own situations 445 00:19:33,866 --> 00:19:34,666 is that right 446 00:19:34,766 --> 00:19:37,900 yeah yeah that's that's been there got out 447 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,100 yeah I love that and so 448 00:19:41,733 --> 00:19:43,600 you know what would you have done 449 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,033 differently or what should you have done differently 450 00:19:46,566 --> 00:19:48,533 okay how much time if you had this situation 451 00:19:48,533 --> 00:19:52,000 to live over again I mean there's there's 452 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,266 there's so many things I would have done differently um 453 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,666 but I think the first one was I would have taken 454 00:19:58,766 --> 00:20:01,666 strategic oversight of my case well first of all 455 00:20:01,666 --> 00:20:03,733 no backing up before that I 456 00:20:03,733 --> 00:20:05,566 I would have known what narcissism 457 00:20:05,566 --> 00:20:08,433 was I would have known a bit more about addiction 458 00:20:08,533 --> 00:20:12,266 I wouldn't have thought I have to do this logically and 459 00:20:12,266 --> 00:20:15,433 I would have educated myself a lot more 460 00:20:15,466 --> 00:20:17,666 there's an excellent book called splitting 461 00:20:17,666 --> 00:20:19,766 by a Guy Named Bill Eddie and it's about 462 00:20:19,766 --> 00:20:22,000 dealing with narcissistic and borderline 463 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,233 personality disorders during a divorce 464 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,166 I unfortunately found that book like 465 00:20:27,166 --> 00:20:29,600 a year and a half after I got divorced 466 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,400 after that first year but 467 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,500 it was right before my partner Chris 468 00:20:33,566 --> 00:20:35,433 whose divorce took three years 469 00:20:36,266 --> 00:20:39,133 that that book made him finally cross the finish 470 00:20:39,133 --> 00:20:41,700 line and the author of its name is Bill Eddie 471 00:20:41,866 --> 00:20:44,566 he is a former social worker turned 472 00:20:44,566 --> 00:20:46,800 high conflict family lawyer turned 473 00:20:46,866 --> 00:20:49,133 founder of what's called the High Conflict 474 00:20:49,133 --> 00:20:51,700 Institute and I think he's actually based in San Diego 475 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:52,633 but um 476 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:55,966 anyway now we work with yeah governments and 477 00:20:55,966 --> 00:20:58,700 businesses to reduce the level of conflict 478 00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:01,066 and he actually wrote the forward to our upcoming 479 00:21:01,066 --> 00:21:05,466 book which is very very exciting but um but anyway so 480 00:21:05,466 --> 00:21:07,666 there's there's ways to deal with these people 481 00:21:07,666 --> 00:21:10,733 very very differently and I think I would have 482 00:21:10,733 --> 00:21:15,000 um been able to educate my my lawyer was wonderful but 483 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,100 neither of us knew what we were dealing with and we didn't understand 484 00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:20,800 that the more engagement we had 485 00:21:21,166 --> 00:21:22,666 just dragged it out longer 486 00:21:22,666 --> 00:21:25,600 so I think we wouldn't have negotiated as much 487 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,000 we would I I would have taken a a firmer 488 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,500 stance on certain things I would have communicated 489 00:21:30,666 --> 00:21:32,733 differently I think I would have um 490 00:21:32,733 --> 00:21:36,766 stroked my ex's ego a lot more I would have uh 491 00:21:37,266 --> 00:21:38,366 yeah I mean 492 00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:42,900 the the post judgment stuff like all those years maybe 493 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:44,866 there could have been stuff I would have but that was 494 00:21:44,866 --> 00:21:46,966 that was really financial and that was him not following 495 00:21:46,966 --> 00:21:48,666 the order but um 496 00:21:48,733 --> 00:21:50,100 but we see a lot of mistakes 497 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:53,166 made in terms of communication from the very beginning 498 00:21:54,666 --> 00:21:58,033 yeah that's yeah that's fascinating I and I can imagine 499 00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:01,466 I can imagine having having a coach 500 00:22:01,666 --> 00:22:04,200 if that's your situation if you're in that situation 501 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,033 having a coach or having someone 502 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:08,700 I can imagine that it would be a very lonely experience 503 00:22:09,266 --> 00:22:11,133 and that having someone like you 504 00:22:11,133 --> 00:22:12,633 would be tremendously helpful 505 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:16,333 yeah well I think because people see things on TV 506 00:22:16,333 --> 00:22:17,000 they hear 507 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,866 what we call Barstool Council like friends and 508 00:22:19,866 --> 00:22:20,800 and other people saying 509 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,433 oh well this is what you should do this is what I did or this is what someone I know 510 00:22:24,733 --> 00:22:27,566 but they don't understand like these cases are very 511 00:22:27,566 --> 00:22:29,866 very different and even each of the high conflict 512 00:22:29,866 --> 00:22:31,800 cases are are different 513 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,466 um so we often say to our clients 514 00:22:34,533 --> 00:22:36,800 like you know your ex better than anyone 515 00:22:36,933 --> 00:22:40,100 and no one else has to live with the consequences 516 00:22:40,133 --> 00:22:41,000 of the decisions 517 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,600 you make now except for you and your family so 518 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,933 it's really really important to understand 519 00:22:45,933 --> 00:22:47,200 what's going on 520 00:22:47,233 --> 00:22:50,466 to understand every stage of the process to not 521 00:22:50,466 --> 00:22:52,500 feel pressured into making decisions 522 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:53,900 just because you're exhausted 523 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,533 to think about the long term consequences 524 00:22:56,533 --> 00:22:59,266 to realize like you can't just cut someone 525 00:22:59,333 --> 00:23:01,100 out of your kid's lives 526 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:03,066 like you have to figure out a way 527 00:23:03,066 --> 00:23:05,700 to co parent because even people in jail 528 00:23:05,766 --> 00:23:09,100 have parenting rights and the impact on your children 529 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:11,066 is is not just till they're 18 530 00:23:11,066 --> 00:23:14,166 it's it's for the rest of their lives absolutely um 531 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,900 my kids actually did recently um 532 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,666 reconnect with their their father 533 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,466 I thought it was like a done like he was gone 534 00:23:23,466 --> 00:23:24,866 but that's 535 00:23:24,866 --> 00:23:28,166 one of my friends was telling me the other day she said it's almost like 536 00:23:28,166 --> 00:23:30,700 when a child's been adopted it 537 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,100 no matter how wonderful their adoptive 538 00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:34,133 parents are they're still 539 00:23:34,133 --> 00:23:37,066 curious so even when someone has left 540 00:23:37,166 --> 00:23:40,100 you you still wanna you know you wanna 541 00:23:40,166 --> 00:23:43,133 know and stuff and so but I do think that 542 00:23:43,133 --> 00:23:46,933 a lot of the decisions he made in terms of how he 543 00:23:46,933 --> 00:23:50,100 treated them or neglected them is impacting 544 00:23:50,466 --> 00:23:52,766 you know whatever happens moving forward 545 00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:54,800 so of course yeah and there's 546 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,833 it's interesting gonna be a lack of trust there 547 00:23:56,866 --> 00:24:00,166 yeah yeah it's it's interesting because I think 548 00:24:00,166 --> 00:24:02,833 my son has a very strong personality 549 00:24:03,066 --> 00:24:06,000 and early on I thought hmm 550 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,866 my daughter's the one who's like 551 00:24:07,866 --> 00:24:11,600 really really sensitive and she'll be affected more but 552 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:12,766 now they're young adults 553 00:24:12,766 --> 00:24:16,400 and I actually think the opposite I think my son is a lot more vulnerable 554 00:24:16,666 --> 00:24:18,733 maybe because he's a boy um 555 00:24:18,733 --> 00:24:21,366 and also the relationship that he had 556 00:24:21,366 --> 00:24:23,600 in the beginning and he was the one who chased 557 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:24,733 after his father 558 00:24:24,733 --> 00:24:27,133 and I also see things in my partner Chris 559 00:24:27,133 --> 00:24:28,900 whose father abandoned him 560 00:24:29,066 --> 00:24:31,766 when when his parents got a divorce and he always 561 00:24:31,766 --> 00:24:34,866 was kind of chasing love and I I kind of worry 562 00:24:34,866 --> 00:24:37,733 about that I mean'cause that's what attracted 563 00:24:37,733 --> 00:24:40,566 Chris my partner to his ex you know 564 00:24:40,866 --> 00:24:43,433 getting involved with people who are more avoidant 565 00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:45,466 and so I hope that doesn't happen I mean 566 00:24:45,466 --> 00:24:48,366 my my son's had relationships and stuff but now that 567 00:24:48,366 --> 00:24:52,033 his dad is kind of intermittently back I I wonder 568 00:24:52,366 --> 00:24:54,300 you know I'm always worried that he's gonna get hurt 569 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:55,100 again 570 00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:56,866 so we'll see 571 00:24:57,366 --> 00:25:01,566 yeah and yeah that's you gotta take that risk I think 572 00:25:02,066 --> 00:25:03,466 but I can't do anything 573 00:25:03,466 --> 00:25:05,800 I mean it's his life and he's a grown up that's right 574 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,766 how do you you know how did you help 575 00:25:08,933 --> 00:25:11,766 your son process the trauma 576 00:25:12,066 --> 00:25:15,466 of the high conflict divorce um 577 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:17,400 you know without him feeling 578 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,333 like he has to man up and bury 579 00:25:19,333 --> 00:25:20,833 his feelings and stuff did 580 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:22,800 you manage to thread that needle 581 00:25:23,266 --> 00:25:26,366 yeah so that's that's an excellent question and um 582 00:25:26,366 --> 00:25:27,666 and actually 583 00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:31,400 years ago when my son was over the age of 18 he was 584 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,100 asked to be on a podcast called Slam the gavel where 585 00:25:35,133 --> 00:25:36,733 the interviewer was asking 586 00:25:36,733 --> 00:25:38,800 about what it was like being the child 587 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,800 of a high conflict divorce and 588 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,566 we gathered a bunch of questions 589 00:25:43,566 --> 00:25:46,566 from our Instagram audience at the time of what 590 00:25:46,566 --> 00:25:48,566 people wanted to know if you could ask a child 591 00:25:48,566 --> 00:25:51,166 who's an adult and the the most popular 592 00:25:51,166 --> 00:25:55,066 question was how did you what did your mom do 593 00:25:55,066 --> 00:25:59,166 to help you get through this um I know it for me 594 00:25:59,166 --> 00:26:01,366 and I'll tell you his answer in a second but for me 595 00:26:01,366 --> 00:26:03,100 the most important thing was 596 00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:05,966 shielding him from it like not talking about 597 00:26:05,966 --> 00:26:09,200 stuff with his dad not talking about stuff with court I mean they saw 598 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,900 me in court they 599 00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:11,966 they knew that I was busy 600 00:26:11,966 --> 00:26:16,266 with court but like I go to my dad's office um in 601 00:26:16,266 --> 00:26:18,000 another location and and spread 602 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,700 stuff out I didn't talk about it with them I just um 603 00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:23,300 did what I had to do and it's 604 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:24,966 interesting cause my son said just 605 00:26:24,966 --> 00:26:27,033 like a year ago he said oh I didn't know 606 00:26:27,033 --> 00:26:29,666 I didn't know that dad sued you for defamation 607 00:26:29,666 --> 00:26:31,433 like I didn't and I said oh 608 00:26:31,666 --> 00:26:33,500 good yeah I'm glad you didn't know that 609 00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:36,566 but when he was asked the question on the podcast 610 00:26:36,866 --> 00:26:38,733 what did your mom do what 611 00:26:38,733 --> 00:26:41,266 what helped you the most he said she kept it together 612 00:26:41,933 --> 00:26:45,033 so I think me getting support for myself 613 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:46,833 taking care of myself 614 00:26:47,333 --> 00:26:49,666 that was the best thing that I did for both 615 00:26:49,666 --> 00:26:51,600 Izzy and his sister because 616 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,700 he never felt emotionally 617 00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:56,300 responsible for me I think one time 618 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,533 very early in the process they 619 00:26:58,533 --> 00:27:00,166 they made some comment I was driving 620 00:27:00,166 --> 00:27:01,733 them to school and I started 621 00:27:01,733 --> 00:27:03,833 crying they and I'm like pretty stoic 622 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,666 and they both were like oh my God 623 00:27:05,666 --> 00:27:08,366 oh my God I'm so sorry mom I'm so sorry but I was just like 624 00:27:08,466 --> 00:27:14,200 but I really tried to not show my sadness to them and 625 00:27:14,266 --> 00:27:15,500 deal with stuff with 626 00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:18,500 with friends I had a trauma therapist uh'cause I 627 00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:21,133 I just didn't want them to feel like they had 628 00:27:21,133 --> 00:27:23,800 to take care of me and apparently 629 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,166 they didn't so that's that's really 630 00:27:25,166 --> 00:27:27,666 really good so that's fantastic self regulation 631 00:27:28,333 --> 00:27:31,000 yeah well and and I just from my con 632 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,866 uh from my conversations with 633 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:37,100 other guests I can tell you that uh finding your son 634 00:27:37,466 --> 00:27:41,366 men good role models to spend 635 00:27:41,366 --> 00:27:44,200 time with and just the more time that they can spend 636 00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:48,000 with healthy men um I I 637 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,500 I I just know that that made a difference and yes 638 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:53,933 and now I now you just made me think about that 639 00:27:53,933 --> 00:27:56,466 so my my dad and I and and part 640 00:27:56,466 --> 00:27:59,200 part of what's been so heartbreaking for me is 641 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,433 my dad and I are really really close my dad's 85 642 00:28:02,633 --> 00:28:03,700 he's an identical twin 643 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:06,100 my dad and I have lunch every single week we meet 644 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:09,533 and have lunch together I love that yeah and so um 645 00:28:09,533 --> 00:28:11,266 and I almost it's like I have two dads 646 00:28:11,266 --> 00:28:12,466 because of the identical twin 647 00:28:12,466 --> 00:28:14,566 thing and they work together and they 648 00:28:14,566 --> 00:28:16,966 dress the same sometimes it's really wild 649 00:28:16,966 --> 00:28:18,800 amazing wrestle oh my gosh 650 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,333 they don't wrestle now they're they're like kind of 651 00:28:21,333 --> 00:28:25,600 you know yeah 85 is a little old to still yes but um 652 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,866 but my dad and I have always been really really close 653 00:28:28,866 --> 00:28:29,966 and so 654 00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:34,266 I I feel heartbroken that my kids don't have that but 655 00:28:34,266 --> 00:28:34,866 um 656 00:28:34,866 --> 00:28:40,466 but my dad was there for my kids and while I was dealing with all this I had to work on the weekends 657 00:28:40,533 --> 00:28:42,100 and so my son became he 658 00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:43,466 he actually became this national 659 00:28:43,466 --> 00:28:45,500 debate champion so he's always having to be 660 00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:49,566 to go to debates so I couldn't drive him and 661 00:28:49,566 --> 00:28:51,533 part of my um he kind of resents 662 00:28:51,533 --> 00:28:53,800 it but I'm like actually this was good for you is I 663 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,800 I can't do it you're gonna have to figure it out and so he 664 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,866 Learned how to use public transportation but my dad 665 00:28:59,866 --> 00:29:01,900 would drive him like we'd figure out a way 666 00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:05,133 my dad would pick him up and take him and his friends and stuff so he 667 00:29:05,133 --> 00:29:08,066 he stepped in a lot as that role model 668 00:29:08,133 --> 00:29:12,600 um you know and also parental figure for for Izzy 669 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,566 and another thing was with debate itself 670 00:29:15,666 --> 00:29:18,366 so Izzy and his sister went to a high school 671 00:29:18,566 --> 00:29:20,800 that didn't have sports it was like 672 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,266 this weird magnet school but it focused on technology 673 00:29:24,333 --> 00:29:27,766 and technology and engineering and so um 674 00:29:29,066 --> 00:29:31,333 and they they didn't have sports 675 00:29:31,333 --> 00:29:33,400 but their big thing was the debate 676 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,866 team that was like the football team from 677 00:29:36,066 --> 00:29:38,300 you know where it's like wow you're on the debate team 678 00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:43,766 so Izzy was the debate captain and um his debate coach 679 00:29:44,066 --> 00:29:46,433 oh who I have to get in touch with I just remembered 680 00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:50,400 um his his debate coach became like a father figure 681 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,500 and Izzy was born arguing so this man like 682 00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:55,866 really embraced 683 00:29:55,866 --> 00:29:59,900 that talent which is yeah drove me crazy a lot um 684 00:30:00,066 --> 00:30:02,500 and so he really helped Izzy shine 685 00:30:02,733 --> 00:30:04,933 and Izzy actually was the 686 00:30:04,933 --> 00:30:06,566 the speaker at his graduation 687 00:30:06,566 --> 00:30:09,266 which unfortunately his father didn't even come to 688 00:30:09,266 --> 00:30:10,300 but during his 689 00:30:10,300 --> 00:30:13,166 speech which was heartbreaking he talked about 690 00:30:13,166 --> 00:30:15,166 how his father wasn't there but his debate coach 691 00:30:15,166 --> 00:30:15,500 really 692 00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:17,866 stepped up for him and that he really appreciated 693 00:30:17,933 --> 00:30:21,333 having that that man in his life so it is so 694 00:30:21,333 --> 00:30:25,500 important to have those male figures that can step in 695 00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:29,466 for boys and make them feel valued yeah 696 00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:33,200 yeah that's you're you're so fortunate to have found 697 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:33,700 role models 698 00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:38,000 like that and and and people like that or or um 699 00:30:38,466 --> 00:30:41,066 that I I know that made a difference 700 00:30:41,066 --> 00:30:43,633 just from from all the people I talked to 701 00:30:43,966 --> 00:30:47,833 um let's talk about the new book uh 702 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:52,500 it's called when your ex turns your kids against you 703 00:30:52,533 --> 00:30:56,066 and yeah oh I love it thank you yes um 704 00:30:56,066 --> 00:30:59,533 you address a nightmare for many parents I can imagine 705 00:30:59,533 --> 00:31:02,666 what are the practical tools that a parent 706 00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:06,700 can use to to maintain 707 00:31:06,966 --> 00:31:10,766 the role model status to not vilify the other parent 708 00:31:10,966 --> 00:31:12,900 but while the other parent is actively 709 00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:14,366 trying to dismantle it 710 00:31:14,866 --> 00:31:19,466 this is such a huge topic and unfortunately I think 711 00:31:19,566 --> 00:31:22,866 again it comes down to education and understanding 712 00:31:22,866 --> 00:31:25,600 what alienation means because it usually starts 713 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,600 while you're still in the relationship with the person 714 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,133 like very subtle undermining like making 715 00:31:31,133 --> 00:31:34,433 jokes about you to your kids minimizing your authority 716 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:36,333 I think back to 717 00:31:36,333 --> 00:31:39,266 when I was still in in my relationship when Izzy 718 00:31:39,266 --> 00:31:42,766 was a really little boy and um he would 719 00:31:42,766 --> 00:31:44,966 you know do something that he got in trouble for and 720 00:31:44,966 --> 00:31:47,966 and my background as a teacher I'd be like no you know like you're 721 00:31:47,966 --> 00:31:48,333 sitting 722 00:31:48,333 --> 00:31:51,300 down like you're not allowed to do whatever it was 723 00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:54,266 and my ex would be like oh no no no 724 00:31:54,266 --> 00:31:57,600 you don't need to listen to your mom you can take it back Izzy 725 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,366 and it really it not only undermined 726 00:32:00,466 --> 00:32:02,000 my attempts to discipline 727 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,866 him and I'm not talking about punishment but just to teach him 728 00:32:04,866 --> 00:32:07,166 yeah but Izzy grew up like pushing 729 00:32:07,166 --> 00:32:09,400 boundaries and I think it's harmed him in a lot of 730 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,900 ways because because he's just like oh 731 00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:13,666 I can just apologize and everything 732 00:32:13,666 --> 00:32:14,800 is all better and it's like 733 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,166 made him a little bit less sensitive to people's feelings 734 00:32:17,166 --> 00:32:17,966 it's not just 735 00:32:17,966 --> 00:32:20,500 how you feel and what you think it's about 736 00:32:20,566 --> 00:32:22,866 the responses to other people 737 00:32:22,933 --> 00:32:26,000 and developing that empathy so um 738 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,666 that was a form of alienation 739 00:32:27,666 --> 00:32:29,533 almost like oh Mom's really cranky 740 00:32:29,533 --> 00:32:31,500 you know we don't need to listen to her 741 00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:34,566 she's just this or oh you know you can take it back 742 00:32:34,566 --> 00:32:36,500 I I didn't know what was 743 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:38,233 what was happening at the time 744 00:32:38,333 --> 00:32:40,766 but that's one of those things um 745 00:32:41,133 --> 00:32:41,933 yeah you don't even know 746 00:32:41,933 --> 00:32:44,866 to set a boundary you you don't even realize that 747 00:32:44,866 --> 00:32:47,400 that means that they're not on your side and and that 748 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,166 that that the other thing that the 749 00:32:49,166 --> 00:32:50,366 the thing where you're working 750 00:32:50,366 --> 00:32:52,900 together and you're on you have each other's backs 751 00:32:52,900 --> 00:32:54,366 and no matter what even if you're wrong 752 00:32:54,366 --> 00:32:55,600 they're gonna back you up 753 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,366 and then you're gonna have a chat about it later that 754 00:32:58,366 --> 00:33:00,000 that experience is so foreign to you 755 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,866 you don't even know that it's a possibility yeah 756 00:33:02,866 --> 00:33:03,533 yeah and you just think 757 00:33:03,533 --> 00:33:06,500 okay maybe we just have different parenting styles but 758 00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:07,666 right it's establishing 759 00:33:07,666 --> 00:33:10,200 what's called loyalty conflicts where the kid 760 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,333 gravitates more towards one parent 761 00:33:12,333 --> 00:33:13,500 than the other and especially 762 00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:15,966 the target parent is made to feel like they 763 00:33:15,966 --> 00:33:19,666 did something wrong and so as you get out of the 764 00:33:19,666 --> 00:33:20,900 you know post separation 765 00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:23,400 and and a lot of times with our clients it happens 766 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,600 while they're still together where the kids cut off one parent 767 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:27,966 who still lives in the house 768 00:33:27,966 --> 00:33:29,933 and they want nothing to do with them 769 00:33:29,933 --> 00:33:31,533 as soon as there's like a sign 770 00:33:31,533 --> 00:33:33,566 that there's gonna be a separation because 771 00:33:33,566 --> 00:33:36,966 they're not allowed to love both of you 772 00:33:37,066 --> 00:33:38,300 again I'm not talking about 773 00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:40,333 normal I'm talking about where there's like 774 00:33:40,333 --> 00:33:44,800 um a personality disorder situation yeah yeah so so um 775 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:45,900 understanding 776 00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:49,100 like all about what it actually means is gonna be very 777 00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:51,266 helpful moving forward because 778 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,466 often once you do separate 779 00:33:53,466 --> 00:33:56,566 and the kid comes back from the other parent's house 780 00:33:56,733 --> 00:33:59,766 they will start spewing things at you 781 00:33:59,766 --> 00:34:00,600 you know the other parent 782 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,900 says this about you and as if they believe it and it's very 783 00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:05,866 very triggering because you feel like okay I got 784 00:34:05,866 --> 00:34:08,233 away from this person and now my kid 785 00:34:08,266 --> 00:34:12,100 is like a mini me of them and how do I deal with this 786 00:34:12,100 --> 00:34:14,566 and so the instinct is to often 787 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,633 correct the record or say no that's not true 788 00:34:17,666 --> 00:34:20,300 this is what it is or I didn't do that or I did 789 00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:21,900 absolutely of course it is right 790 00:34:22,066 --> 00:34:24,066 yeah it's one of the worst things you can do 791 00:34:24,066 --> 00:34:25,266 and here's why that's right 792 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:28,366 yeah so with the X with your ex 793 00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:31,400 they are telling your child what to think and usually 794 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,000 we talk about well one of the big alienation 795 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,366 factors we talk about is 796 00:34:35,366 --> 00:34:37,900 sending poisonous messages about you 797 00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:41,266 from the other parent that you are either unsafe 798 00:34:41,366 --> 00:34:44,300 unloving or unavailable so 799 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:48,133 when they're coming at you and saying those things that they've heard from your other parent 800 00:34:48,133 --> 00:34:49,466 who's bad mouthing you 801 00:34:49,666 --> 00:34:53,333 um you wanna you wanna fix it but when you 802 00:34:53,333 --> 00:34:55,800 fix it and you say no that's not true it's really this 803 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,300 it you are doing the same thing because you're telling 804 00:34:58,300 --> 00:34:59,900 your child what to think 805 00:34:59,933 --> 00:35:02,600 you're not showing respect for their ability 806 00:35:02,866 --> 00:35:05,766 to figure out what's real and what's not and 807 00:35:05,766 --> 00:35:07,366 you have to understand that children 808 00:35:07,366 --> 00:35:09,000 generally love both parents 809 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,066 they consider both of you authorities 810 00:35:11,366 --> 00:35:12,966 so when they're telling 811 00:35:12,966 --> 00:35:14,800 one thing and you're saying another 812 00:35:14,866 --> 00:35:16,900 a child experiences cognitive 813 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,766 dissonance cause they're like okay my parents 814 00:35:18,766 --> 00:35:20,066 don't lie to me 815 00:35:20,166 --> 00:35:22,800 but they're telling me completely different things 816 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,966 yeah so I don't know what to do like I I don't 817 00:35:27,166 --> 00:35:32,766 I I I I don't know who to believe um so for you instead 818 00:35:32,933 --> 00:35:35,500 to when they when they come at you with these 819 00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:37,700 vicious messages they're basically parroting 820 00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:42,666 what your ex is saying to them and you're just like this is crazy I can't believe this it's so harmful to my kid 821 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,566 is to put the truth to the side of what it actually is 822 00:35:46,566 --> 00:35:48,466 and understand we have to deal with their feelings 823 00:35:48,466 --> 00:35:51,700 first they're dealing with a lot of anger fear 824 00:35:51,933 --> 00:35:54,100 sadness grief etcetera 825 00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:58,000 so for you to sit there and take it not I'm not talking 826 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,133 about them being totally 827 00:35:59,133 --> 00:36:01,966 disrespectful on and on and on but to understand 828 00:36:01,966 --> 00:36:04,866 that they are they are really really suffering 829 00:36:05,466 --> 00:36:08,166 so for you to just say I 830 00:36:08,766 --> 00:36:12,066 let me hear what you have to say I'm so sorry 831 00:36:12,066 --> 00:36:13,800 that you feel that way I wanna hear 832 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,266 more of like why you think I'm like that and get them to just keep talking 833 00:36:17,266 --> 00:36:19,266 and talking and talking and just 834 00:36:20,066 --> 00:36:22,733 take it and deal with the truth later 835 00:36:22,733 --> 00:36:28,666 but be like I'm the one who's not gonna sit here and tell you you're not allowed to feel this you're not allowed to feel this you're not allowed to think this 836 00:36:28,666 --> 00:36:29,833 I'm gonna just say 837 00:36:29,966 --> 00:36:33,233 I'm here so defending yourself is essentially 838 00:36:33,866 --> 00:36:36,000 not validating their feelings 839 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,900 and so they're just gonna get defensive 840 00:36:37,966 --> 00:36:40,333 and they're just gonna fight you and then they're gonna believe 841 00:36:40,333 --> 00:36:42,233 the thing you don't want them to believe 842 00:36:42,333 --> 00:36:44,400 right whereas if you just 843 00:36:44,933 --> 00:36:50,066 try to keep your distance and you inspect 844 00:36:50,066 --> 00:36:51,500 their feelings you validate 845 00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:53,800 their feelings and you inspect their rationale 846 00:36:54,066 --> 00:36:57,466 the claims will fall apart on their own and then you 847 00:36:57,466 --> 00:37:00,900 become the credible parent and and 848 00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:06,400 the other parent is has is the the non credible parent 849 00:37:06,566 --> 00:37:09,466 I mean I think back to that message from Mark that 850 00:37:09,466 --> 00:37:11,933 is his therapist who is like even though he's raging at you 851 00:37:11,933 --> 00:37:14,500 you have to stay firm like you cannot 852 00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:18,000 just be like leave me alone go away yeah you know 853 00:37:18,466 --> 00:37:21,100 and it makes me think of like what you mentioned Tasha 854 00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:23,366 sure parenting boys peacefully um 855 00:37:23,366 --> 00:37:27,066 she's got some amazing content and she talks about how 856 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,133 putting kids like when they're 857 00:37:29,133 --> 00:37:31,600 explosive with you and you say you need to go sit 858 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,166 away like get away from me 859 00:37:33,266 --> 00:37:36,300 that that basically is teaching kids that they have to 860 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:38,133 behave a certain way for your love 861 00:37:38,133 --> 00:37:39,366 to be with you I know I 862 00:37:39,366 --> 00:37:42,133 I struggle with this my my daughter who is 863 00:37:42,133 --> 00:37:44,600 3 years old is going through a phase right now where 864 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,400 she gets really really ugly and 865 00:37:47,933 --> 00:37:49,700 it's makes me really mad 866 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,166 and I don't want to be really mad at her and so like I 867 00:37:54,166 --> 00:37:56,133 I feel like I have to get away from it 868 00:37:56,133 --> 00:37:59,500 but I also know that getting away from it is punishing 869 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:01,266 her for 870 00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:03,500 you know it is creating 871 00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:05,800 that situation where she feels like she has to behave 872 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,666 and suppress what she feels in order 873 00:38:07,766 --> 00:38:13,300 to be around me and I don't know how to manage that 874 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:13,800 I I well 875 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,933 okay so I mean I don't know if that's the same thing like my daughter 876 00:38:16,933 --> 00:38:20,300 at 3 had her terrible twos at 3 and she like 877 00:38:20,533 --> 00:38:21,566 it would be 878 00:38:21,566 --> 00:38:24,633 nothing like I'd say do you do you want a cheese stick 879 00:38:24,766 --> 00:38:26,366 I don't want that I'd be like okay 880 00:38:26,366 --> 00:38:29,300 and then she'd be like I don't want and then it would blow up for an hour 881 00:38:29,666 --> 00:38:30,333 screaming 882 00:38:30,333 --> 00:38:32,466 and so I put her in a room and shut the window 883 00:38:32,466 --> 00:38:34,200 so the neighbors didn't think I was killing her 884 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:34,933 because I thought 885 00:38:34,933 --> 00:38:37,600 she just needs to blow it off and she did and it happened 886 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,800 every single day over nothing so right 887 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,466 I found that when I did engage 888 00:38:42,466 --> 00:38:44,733 with her and it's different with different developmental levels 889 00:38:44,733 --> 00:38:45,400 it would just cat 890 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,133 it would just extended and extended 891 00:38:47,133 --> 00:38:48,766 almost like the fuss period 892 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,166 where it's like overstimulating 893 00:38:50,166 --> 00:38:52,333 them they just you just need to like sit here 894 00:38:52,333 --> 00:38:53,933 I'm not punishing you I'm just being like I 895 00:38:53,933 --> 00:38:56,233 I can't help you I'm gonna take a break here yeah 896 00:38:56,566 --> 00:39:00,433 right yeah yeah so it's yeah I think it's different 897 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,266 yeah it's it's definitely different and the the 898 00:39:04,266 --> 00:39:05,600 the strategies and the tactics 899 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:06,900 are different for boys and girls 900 00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:08,966 that's right and different ages 901 00:39:08,966 --> 00:39:12,566 and different personalities so it has to be customized 902 00:39:12,566 --> 00:39:15,433 but it is not easy but especially in the moment 903 00:39:15,433 --> 00:39:16,933 it's almost like you need to have a plan 904 00:39:16,933 --> 00:39:19,566 ahead of time you need to know this is what's gonna happen 905 00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:22,266 how am I gonna deal with it cause it's happening 906 00:39:22,366 --> 00:39:26,000 yeah yeah that's that is great advice 907 00:39:26,133 --> 00:39:27,333 that is absolutely 908 00:39:27,333 --> 00:39:29,666 great advice and you can you can do that exercise 909 00:39:29,666 --> 00:39:30,700 just sit down for 910 00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:33,966 15 20 minutes an hour whatever it is and just you know 911 00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:36,300 map out the decision tree right 912 00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:39,700 instead of having that toxic hope of like maybe today 913 00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:41,566 they'll stop it's like no they're not 914 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,400 yeah they're not gonna stop today 915 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,466 yeah and it's it's important to do that analysis 916 00:39:47,466 --> 00:39:48,700 and that planning 917 00:39:48,966 --> 00:39:52,366 when you're removed from the situation because it's 918 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:53,200 then 919 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,166 and then you're kind of on autopilot you don't have to worry too much about what you're gonna do and 920 00:39:57,166 --> 00:40:00,066 you could be proud of how you responded because 921 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,933 because you responded in a way that was thoughtful 922 00:40:02,933 --> 00:40:05,533 because you could still think back when you came up with the plan 923 00:40:05,533 --> 00:40:07,300 as opposed to when you're in the thick of it 924 00:40:07,333 --> 00:40:09,500 you're in your other brain you're in the 925 00:40:09,533 --> 00:40:12,666 what I call the Conan the barbarian brain and 926 00:40:12,866 --> 00:40:14,300 you know there's no there's no planning 927 00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:16,166 there's no thinking that's happening in that brain 928 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,033 yeah I think humor is also very very helpful 929 00:40:20,133 --> 00:40:24,100 like I know when the kids were little and they be like really mad I'd be like oh my gosh you want me to like 930 00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:26,366 I mean I do that too like I'm you want me to rip 931 00:40:26,366 --> 00:40:28,833 my arm off or do you and they be like what 932 00:40:28,966 --> 00:40:30,700 like just sort of surprise them 933 00:40:31,666 --> 00:40:32,800 you know and 934 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,300 but as with all things there's attention there too 935 00:40:35,366 --> 00:40:40,866 I I often deflect with humor and in ways that are 936 00:40:40,866 --> 00:40:43,733 healthy and unhealthy and I once 937 00:40:43,733 --> 00:40:44,933 got in a situation where 938 00:40:44,933 --> 00:40:47,966 and so I was doing this to the boy all the time he would get very upset 939 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,500 and um 940 00:40:51,333 --> 00:40:53,166 and this is something that I suspect 941 00:40:53,166 --> 00:40:55,166 Tasha Shore would have advised me against 942 00:40:55,266 --> 00:40:59,966 if I'd known about her back then she uh uh the boy 943 00:40:59,966 --> 00:41:02,966 would would get very upset he'd start crying and 944 00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:04,733 the crying I guess 945 00:41:04,733 --> 00:41:08,166 made me feel like a bad dad and so I would try and stop the crying 946 00:41:08,266 --> 00:41:11,633 I would stop the crying by making him laugh 947 00:41:11,866 --> 00:41:14,900 and then and at one point in time 948 00:41:15,266 --> 00:41:16,833 he's a wise little kid man 949 00:41:17,966 --> 00:41:20,600 at one point in time he goes he goes 950 00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:24,100 dad stop and he's like kind of lying laughing and 951 00:41:24,100 --> 00:41:27,333 kind of crying he goes I'm so frustrated 952 00:41:27,333 --> 00:41:32,100 you just won't let me feel what I feel wow 953 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,900 I was like oh my gosh he's totally right 954 00:41:35,966 --> 00:41:39,166 like let me be sad man and 955 00:41:39,166 --> 00:41:41,666 so yeah and so I started doing that and 956 00:41:41,666 --> 00:41:43,666 there's attention like sometimes 957 00:41:43,933 --> 00:41:45,966 I'll make him laugh and sometimes I'll 958 00:41:46,133 --> 00:41:47,433 let him cry it out and 959 00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:51,400 yeah it's different now it's it's it's so hard I know 960 00:41:51,566 --> 00:41:54,466 um with my partner with Chris sometimes he'll be like 961 00:41:54,566 --> 00:41:56,000 he he he'll recognize 962 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,300 he's like I as a man I feel like I I wanna 963 00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:01,466 when you tell me things that are upsetting to you I just wanna fix it 964 00:42:01,766 --> 00:42:05,200 but you don't want me to fix it sometimes you just want me to listen 965 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,000 I'm like 966 00:42:06,566 --> 00:42:10,600 yeah yeah that's it is anathema to I think that's an 967 00:42:10,733 --> 00:42:12,200 anathema to men in general 968 00:42:12,333 --> 00:42:14,500 and it's particularly anathema to 969 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:16,700 guys like me who are engineers 970 00:42:18,466 --> 00:42:21,400 you know you show me something broken I need to fix it 971 00:42:21,466 --> 00:42:23,366 right and 972 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,366 like just sitting with the discomfort is not 973 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,166 it's not natural to me 974 00:42:28,266 --> 00:42:31,466 yeah but that's so important to even recognize 975 00:42:31,466 --> 00:42:34,000 yes is that I have to I have to 976 00:42:34,066 --> 00:42:35,500 it's it's something that you have 977 00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:38,533 control over and but it's it's not comfortable but I 978 00:42:38,533 --> 00:42:39,966 I realize I don't think I answered 979 00:42:39,966 --> 00:42:42,900 your question as one way to sort of prevent this 980 00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:47,366 and I was interviewing a child psychiatrist 981 00:42:47,666 --> 00:42:50,000 who happens to be local I met her in real life and 982 00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:52,066 she's from Romania but she 983 00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:55,466 she works with kids from 3 to like 20 984 00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:57,200 and she said that kids 985 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,066 want two things more than anything else 986 00:43:00,366 --> 00:43:01,866 control and attention 987 00:43:02,066 --> 00:43:04,200 and so she talked about something called the 10 minute 988 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,233 rule that I think is applicable for any parent she said 989 00:43:08,733 --> 00:43:10,266 if you for 990 00:43:10,266 --> 00:43:12,133 10 minutes when you have time 991 00:43:12,133 --> 00:43:14,666 you know when you're with your kid to say 992 00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:16,966 I really like how you do this or I'm really 993 00:43:16,966 --> 00:43:19,200 interested in something that you're interested in 994 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,166 so for example 995 00:43:20,166 --> 00:43:23,666 even if it's a video game and I made this mistake I probably should have done this with 996 00:43:23,666 --> 00:43:25,566 with Izzy when he was interested in video games 997 00:43:25,566 --> 00:43:27,333 instead of being like I don't care about video games 998 00:43:27,333 --> 00:43:29,166 I should have said you know what 999 00:43:29,166 --> 00:43:32,800 I know you love this game can you show me 1000 00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:36,233 can you explain it to me and can you show me how to play it 1001 00:43:36,266 --> 00:43:37,300 where the kid feels 1002 00:43:37,300 --> 00:43:40,866 like they're leading and they have your full attention 1003 00:43:41,133 --> 00:43:44,700 and I think back to when I was a little girl like with my dad 1004 00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:47,200 part of why I think we 1005 00:43:47,266 --> 00:43:48,966 had this bond was because 1006 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,000 he really did spend time with me like I 1007 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,400 remember so many things 1008 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,400 where he'd come home from work he'd stand 1009 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,333 on his head in the middle of the living room and I 1010 00:43:57,333 --> 00:44:00,000 was a gymnast so I loved like we'd turn on music 1011 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:01,533 I had two I've two sisters 1012 00:44:01,533 --> 00:44:03,600 so we just like dance around and act silly 1013 00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:06,333 he'd let us do he taught us how to do dive rolls 1014 00:44:06,333 --> 00:44:10,666 over him he would take me for walks every Sunday down 1015 00:44:10,666 --> 00:44:12,133 the hill to get the newspaper 1016 00:44:12,133 --> 00:44:14,966 at the store and he'd let me buy like a little thing from the vending machine 1017 00:44:14,966 --> 00:44:16,566 I still have all those little 1018 00:44:16,566 --> 00:44:19,700 plastic toys in my jewelry box from when I was a child 1019 00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:23,100 we would take walks for ice cream like we always 1020 00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:25,500 had something that we did together 1021 00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:27,266 that was just me and him even though 1022 00:44:27,266 --> 00:44:28,566 you know I had siblings 1023 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,633 so spending that dedicated time 1024 00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:32,800 even when we didn't you know we 1025 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,500 we didn't talk about like our feelings 1026 00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:35,633 or open up to anything 1027 00:44:35,733 --> 00:44:39,400 but as as I got older like he was always an athlete so 1028 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:40,800 um he was a wrestler 1029 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,300 and him and his brother would go down to Manhattan 1030 00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:44,966 to New York Athletic Club and they 1031 00:44:44,966 --> 00:44:48,166 they taught me how to keep time and I got to throw in the white towel 1032 00:44:48,166 --> 00:44:50,866 so I was part of that um wow 1033 00:44:50,966 --> 00:44:52,900 you know like he took me jogging 1034 00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:56,066 I I remember when I was 21 when I had my first like 1035 00:44:56,066 --> 00:44:57,700 awful heartbreak 1036 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,000 yeah and I was just crying and crying in the bathroom I was back from college and my dad's 1037 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,100 like we're gonna go out we're gonna go out for a jog 1038 00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:05,200 like you don't need to say anything to me 1039 00:45:05,366 --> 00:45:07,700 but I'm just gonna like keep this routine 1040 00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:11,300 that we've had all this time so having that steady 1041 00:45:11,466 --> 00:45:15,100 consistent presence in my life yeah I think is 1042 00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:16,300 that's that's really 1043 00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:18,533 helped me a lot and I think that for any 1044 00:45:18,533 --> 00:45:21,933 parent listening to have any kind of little rituals 1045 00:45:21,933 --> 00:45:24,766 like these are the things your kids are gonna remember 1046 00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:28,066 that is absolutely right I love that 10 minute ritual 1047 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,166 um we we've abused Tasha Shore on this but she 1048 00:45:31,166 --> 00:45:32,833 she has a name for that 1049 00:45:33,166 --> 00:45:35,400 I think she calls it special time and it's exactly 1050 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,300 it's exactly what that is it's 10 minutes the the child 1051 00:45:39,666 --> 00:45:40,666 uh directs 1052 00:45:40,666 --> 00:45:43,400 what the activities are and you know you just 1053 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,233 and and it's one parent 1054 00:45:45,266 --> 00:45:47,966 per kid and each parent has their own special time 1055 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:49,666 and uh it's 1056 00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:52,766 it's a beautiful suggestion I'm gonna implement that uh 1057 00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:56,566 today I'm gonna do it starting today I it 1058 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:57,400 it is such an 1059 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,200 important thing I'm so glad I found out about it yeah I 1060 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,966 I think it's really made a difference with my own kids 1061 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,100 yeah and spent making 1062 00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:06,533 sure I have time with them even as they're young adults 1063 00:46:06,533 --> 00:46:07,466 and and Izzy 1064 00:46:07,466 --> 00:46:08,600 was saying the other weekend 1065 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,666 Izzy and I went up we took a road trip up to um 1066 00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:14,400 this cute little town in upstate Connecticut and we're just walking 1067 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,033 around and Izzy said mom you know they say that um 1068 00:46:18,366 --> 00:46:21,000 that by the time a kid is 18 1069 00:46:21,100 --> 00:46:23,333 that they will have spent like 90% 1070 00:46:23,333 --> 00:46:24,566 of their time like the 1071 00:46:24,566 --> 00:46:26,466 like the time that you would have had 1072 00:46:26,466 --> 00:46:29,666 it's already 90% gone however you say it like yeah 1073 00:46:29,666 --> 00:46:32,100 now it's just a little bit of time because he's an adult 1074 00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:33,566 and he's like I I don't think we fit 1075 00:46:33,566 --> 00:46:35,466 that I think we still spend more than 1076 00:46:35,466 --> 00:46:38,100 10% of our time together so yeah I'm really 1077 00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:40,466 happy about that what a what a what a profound 1078 00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:42,300 and kind of horrifying 1079 00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:45,200 thing is 90% of the time you spend with your kid 1080 00:46:45,666 --> 00:46:47,100 they're underage they're 18 1081 00:46:47,166 --> 00:46:49,300 yeah and then and then it's how brutal 1082 00:46:49,366 --> 00:46:51,566 I know I know how brutal 1083 00:46:51,666 --> 00:46:53,100 but it doesn't have to be true 1084 00:46:53,533 --> 00:46:56,866 it doesn't yeah that's right but it's you establishing 1085 00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:58,800 a relationship where your kids 1086 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,166 wanna spend time with you that's right when they 1087 00:47:01,166 --> 00:47:03,266 become adults too yeah 1088 00:47:03,266 --> 00:47:06,566 like me and my dad having lunch every week I want to 1089 00:47:06,566 --> 00:47:09,033 yeah it's not true for your dad yeah you're you're 1090 00:47:09,133 --> 00:47:11,033 that's not true for your dad I love that yeah 1091 00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:14,733 I love that well I have I I at least I've absolutely 1092 00:47:14,733 --> 00:47:15,133 loved 1093 00:47:15,133 --> 00:47:17,600 this conversation before I let you get out of here 1094 00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:21,566 um I I really like to ask everybody 1095 00:47:21,933 --> 00:47:27,566 uh the same question uh to finish things off and so um 1096 00:47:27,566 --> 00:47:31,800 if you're standing in the gap for the next generation 1097 00:47:32,066 --> 00:47:34,433 and you can only convey 1098 00:47:35,066 --> 00:47:37,833 you can give a parent one principle 1099 00:47:38,066 --> 00:47:41,266 to help them raise a son of virtue and 1100 00:47:41,266 --> 00:47:43,633 emotional intelligence and excellence what 1101 00:47:43,666 --> 00:47:46,466 what is that principle what is the raising men 1102 00:47:46,466 --> 00:47:48,666 bottom line for you 1103 00:47:49,266 --> 00:47:51,766 it it kind of goes into what we were just talking 1104 00:47:51,766 --> 00:47:54,300 about is the most important thing 1105 00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:57,833 is to establish a relationship with your son 1106 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,066 where they feel like they can talk to you about 1107 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,166 whatever it is that will 1108 00:48:03,166 --> 00:48:06,000 protect them from all kinds of abuse 1109 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,266 with not just you know 1110 00:48:07,266 --> 00:48:08,933 scary people but even in the workplace 1111 00:48:08,933 --> 00:48:11,600 where they can tell you anything I think it's so 1112 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,133 important especially for boys who have a hard time 1113 00:48:14,133 --> 00:48:16,500 opening up our culture does that to them 1114 00:48:16,533 --> 00:48:18,333 they're not allowed to express themselves 1115 00:48:18,333 --> 00:48:20,566 but where you have a son or a daughter 1116 00:48:20,766 --> 00:48:22,300 and I have both and so to you 1117 00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:25,100 where they they feel like they can tell you anything 1118 00:48:25,133 --> 00:48:26,766 and you're not gonna 1119 00:48:26,766 --> 00:48:30,000 come at them or judge them you're just gonna accept it 1120 00:48:30,133 --> 00:48:32,766 I think it's it's really helpful for them 1121 00:48:32,766 --> 00:48:36,500 and also as a parent to feel like my kid wants to spend 1122 00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:39,100 time with me like that makes me feel really happy 1123 00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:40,900 we just went to Alaska together 1124 00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:42,200 that was my daughter's graduation 1125 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,200 present it was just me her and Izzy and we did a huge 1126 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:45,500 road 1127 00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:47,566 trip and went all over and it was one of my favorite 1128 00:48:47,566 --> 00:48:50,766 vacations and I thought I am so lucky 1129 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,200 that I have these kids who actually uh are taking 1130 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:54,900 their vacation 1131 00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:57,800 time to spend with me of course after as he was like mom you drove me crazy 1132 00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,366 we're never sharing right cab together 1133 00:48:59,366 --> 00:49:01,500 we we don't need to spend so much time together 1134 00:49:01,666 --> 00:49:05,300 next time we're getting separate lodging but right 1135 00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:09,033 but we did have a pretty good time so I think 1136 00:49:09,033 --> 00:49:11,233 doing what you can to cultivate 1137 00:49:11,366 --> 00:49:13,266 a relationship with your child because 1138 00:49:13,266 --> 00:49:15,566 the people I work with there's a lot of situations 1139 00:49:15,566 --> 00:49:17,300 where kids cut off a parent 1140 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,066 so you want to make yourself bulletproof to that 1141 00:49:21,100 --> 00:49:22,666 and that starts with you taking 1142 00:49:22,666 --> 00:49:24,766 the time even those 10 minutes a day 1143 00:49:24,766 --> 00:49:27,200 to really focus on on your kid 1144 00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:30,100 because this is gonna be your your family 1145 00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:32,066 like for the rest of your life 1146 00:49:32,300 --> 00:49:34,500 yeah so why not do why not 1147 00:49:34,766 --> 00:49:37,300 do the best you can you don't have a choice you 1148 00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:39,333 of whether or 1149 00:49:39,333 --> 00:49:42,133 not these people are gonna be in your family they're 1150 00:49:42,133 --> 00:49:44,466 you're stuck with them you might as well make it awesome 1151 00:49:44,666 --> 00:49:47,166 yeah or or try yeah yeah 1152 00:49:47,166 --> 00:49:50,600 yeah do what you can to make it awesome right yeah 1153 00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:54,166 I love that sentiment thank you so much Lisa for 1154 00:49:54,166 --> 00:49:55,700 for for spending the time 1155 00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:58,166 I really appreciate it's been wonderful having you 1156 00:49:58,166 --> 00:50:01,000 on raising men no my pleasure 1157 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,833 the book is called when your ex 1158 00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:07,833 turns your kids against you you can find that and more 1159 00:50:07,933 --> 00:50:10,400 with the links in the show notes 1160 00:50:10,733 --> 00:50:13,200 remember you are a great parent 1161 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,066 raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez 1162 00:50:25,333 --> 00:50:28,466 this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino