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Hello, Jenny and Gill, this feels so special.

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And listeners, you're gonna have to just catch up with me, because you'll find out why in
just a second.

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But thank you so much for joining me here on the podcast for Classroom 5.0.

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We've been riffing on when to make this conversation happen, and you've had so much going
on, both of you, Gill, you in particular, the last few months, so to be here with you both

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right now.

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Yeah, it feels, I'm absolutely honored and privileged.

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So thank you for joining me.

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How are you both?

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Good.

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Good.

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good.

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Thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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love that To catch you up listeners, Jenny and Gill.

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The Potential Project.

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We're going to hear about that in a sec.

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But I met Jenny just this year actually at the Thriving Workplace event.

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And Gill and I collided a couple of years back actually in 2022.

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I think that was the first time we met at the Thriving Workplace event then when we were
both speaking.

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And the only reason I doubt myself, Gill, for context is because for me at least that
connection in those couple of days with you were just so natural and easy.

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I just enjoyed spending time with you and our conversation shared.

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But it felt like a

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I'd known you a lifetime, a long time and then to learn that 11 days after that event that
you'd suffered such a significant stroke, yeah, was just heartbreaking to hear of.

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and to hear parts of your recovery journey has been an absolute privilege and pleasure.

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So I'm really thrilled to be inviting you here today to share that with our audience
because I think they're going to learn a lot from you and your insights.

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So thank you for generously sharing and you too, Jenny.

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The friendship between the two of you just has blown my mind.

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But anyway, I could rave and rant and fan club on both of you for hours.

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So let's not do that just yet, Maz.

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I'm going to throw it over to you both.

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Can you tell us a little bit first and foremorst about

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The Potential Project,

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Well, Potential Project is actually a global organization.

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We're a research and leadership development and consultancy firm.

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And our purpose is to create a more human world of work, which is really interesting in
this age of AI.

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And our next book that's coming out is about how we can make the most of artificial
intelligence and yet double down on our ability to create that human model for it.

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So really interesting, published by Harvard Business Review coming out soon.

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But yes, that's what we do here in Australia as well.

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So Gill and I are both the co-national directors for a Potential Project in Australia and
absolutely love the work that we do, supporting leaders and teams to cultivate that.

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both and quality where we can be both achieving high performance and doing so with care
for our people, bringing in that humanity.

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And Jenny, you say that so eloquently and I know you would have seen me throw to you
because I know I am not that familiar, no, I am not very good at taking the reins so it's

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really good to be together.

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well, always great to be together and over the years it's been a to and fro between us.

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So it's just the way that it is at the moment.

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Yeah, that that to and fro is just magic between the two of you, I have to say.

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I haven't watched you fro together.

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I want to ask you about that actually, because you've come together and collided for work
and your shared passion of people and bringing that real human element and care and

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kindness into our workforce.

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How did you meet?

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Was it through work or was there a friendship prior to your work engagement together?

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Because obviously that's blossomed now, but tell me a little bit about your origin story
together.

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you can fill out the before thing and then I can just come in with the highlights.

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Sure, that's okay.

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We actually first met a long time ago, back in, well, before 2000, it was probably about
1998, I think it was, yeah.

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Because we both worked for Sokolg, for the organizing committee that put on the Olympic
Games in Sydney in 2000.

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And so we met then, but you weren't with Sokolg for very long back then, I don't think,
yeah.

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Although it felt like you were there for ages, like,

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felt like you were just, you

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was because we were good at partying We were awesome at partying

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Partying, yeah, that's right.

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Yeah, a of people who worked there at Sokolk were great at that.

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But then many years went past and we went off into our different fields of things, post
games.

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then I was, well, a part of our journey was that we both had breast cancer as well.

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And it was when...

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after I had gone through my little bit of recovery from breast cancer and I was
considering what am I...

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this is going to come out saying...

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it was going to come out like what am I doing with my life?

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I didn't mean it like that.

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What I meant is I had a moment to stop and think am I doing something that's making a
really positive difference in the world?

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And in part of doing that reflection I caught up with a mutual friend of...

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Gill's and mine and we were chatting and she saying you know what you really ought to be
back in touch with Gill again and this is several years ago now and so I did record up for

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a coffee in North Sydney that time I remember that Gill and there began our

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even remember you working walking to the table and it's like it's changed my life so it's
it's moment

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You changed my life.

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We're mutually changing each other's lives.

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But yes, we had this beautiful moment.

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And I remember we had to get going and our conversation was for ages in the coffee shop in
North Sydney.

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And then we walked out onto the street and then we sat on sort of like the footpath
talking.

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And I remember a butterfly landed on my finger or my hand.

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And we just were there talking about this butterfly that just landed there.

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And then from there on, we started working together in friendship.

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Would you want to add in more, there Gill?

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I you've done it pretty well.

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Thank you very much.

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I like it.

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Mazz was that what you were after?

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I'm not sure that I had a set agenda, but you've absolutely delighted me.

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And I'm so glad I asked.

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I don't know if you remember at the thriving event, but I asked you when you were both on
stage, what has this experience of a significant life event being the stroke?

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And for you, Gill, I'm gonna invite you to share some of that story in a minute, because
it really was significant and nearly took your life.

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But what...

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What has that done to reshape your thinking around love?

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And I don't know that I got to follow up and circle back on that.

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The reason that I asked that question was because watching the two of you engage in your
friendship, the container that you've created for yourselves to experience personally, but

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then also to express love, it just was so palpable to me.

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to see it in action.

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And again, you haven't disappointed in sharing your origin stories.

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Thank you.

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So let's like double click on that because I want to circle back on this question about
love and optimism and hope and all the beautiful things that I know you both talk about.

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before we go there, just for our listeners in particular, some context.

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Gill, if you feel comfortable, would you mind taking us back to share what this stroke has
done for you in terms of...

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really reshaping your experience of being human, being here.

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Well, morning that I had the stroke, it started like any other normal day.

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I kind of got up.

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I had a couple of work meetings and I've had a...

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were they, I'm sorry, I've, had a presentation that afternoon, sorry, a bit long, but, and
so I went over to the hotel where he was presenting at one o'clock and I had a chat with

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him about a podcast and blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff.

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And then I was literally about to,

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to go on stage, like I had my mic on, I have all the way to go and I suddenly thought,
actually, like I'd had a headache during the day, so I'd had some norepine and then I had,

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maybe I need some more, so I had some more and then just for some known reason, I was
like, okay.

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I've just got to sit down.

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And so they were all looking at me, were waiting.

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And then actually, I think I need to lay down.

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And that was like, whoa, there must be something really wrong here.

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And I thought, well, we'll just like, I'll get up and we'll go on.

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But no.

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So luckily someone dealt with the audience and, they got some paramedics to come in and

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They that I like I asked someone to ring my husband.

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I can't remember when they did or not.

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But and then was by the time we got to the hospital, I was just about to pass out.

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And then I basically don't remember until three and a half weeks, weeks after that, that I
woke back up.

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So.

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The whole experience for a long time, was an even another two months or maybe one and half
that I couldn't speak.

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having Jenny as a part of that story is really an enormous blessing to me.

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what's it meant to have her by your side?

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I don't know whether you've ever had a moment where you know that nothing is ever going to
be the same.

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Like, it's just that moment when you think and it's not, it's a lot, it's, know, you might
say that you'd say that when you're in love or, you know, something about, but this was

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like, I might not ever happen having, I never might do anything.

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I mean, might not do anything, anybody, sorry, I'll start again.

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I might not do anything productive again, but that's entirely possible.

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And there were times when I was thinking that and Jenny, like even when I was,

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sort of, couldn't speak but I had eyes.

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And we talked about, we talked about, but we didn't talk about, she did all the talking.

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it's okay, it's gonna be okay, just keep breathing, we can smile at each other and we will
eventually gonna get there.

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So I don't know, Jenny, can you wanna just help me out?

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Yeah, what was like for you, Jenny?

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Gosh, thank you, Gill.

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I took away from that, it's funny, because you talk about hope, and we're talking an
active hope.

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And for me, it sounds like Jenny in that moment was that sort of that external source of
hope for you and somebody that you knew that you could be safe with and be held with.

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Jenny, tell me what it was like for you to watch your friend, Gill, to be suffering in
that moment.

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extraordinarily hard and I also don't want to give the impression that I was the only
person there supporting Gill.

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Gill has a billion gazillion friends.

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Though I know Steve, your husband was very it was very is careful the right word about who
could come and see you in those early days as well in those very early days when you're in

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intensive care and and then in hospital after that.

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like I remember the first time I saw Gill in intensive care if I hadn't have been told
that was Gill in the bed if I had to just like walk around and find which patient in the

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bed was her I probably would have just walked straight past because she just looked so
different and I was so like shocked in a way there were tubes everywhere tubes out of

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skull

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and your nose and your throat, your mouth, know, tubes everywhere, people everywhere,
lights everywhere, just so much that was going on as well.

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And yeah, and then...

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I remember there was one time in intensive care where...

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your eyes could make contact with me and

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there was that moment of hope in a way that is there a connection there?

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Is this the start of there going to be a bit of a connection?

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Did that eye contact mean that you were actually looking at me, seeing me and that you
could see that I was looking at you and seeing you, et cetera?

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Yeah.

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beautiful.

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Man, the image that came to my mind just now was the butterfly on the hand moment.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, wow.

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Is there a starting again?

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there a...

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Yeah, tell me how has it shifted your mindset, Gill, in terms of how you see the world,
how you see relationships, how you see everything.

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So I haven't had cancer before.

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for 12 years before I had cancer, well, the stroke I had cancer.

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So that was like I got my eating right and I got my exercise right and I changed jobs and
I started doing the Potential Project and all of these things happen.

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So when I had...

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a stroke, was kind of like almost the first thing I was thinking as I woke up was bloody
hell.

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Like, haven't I already done all of this?

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This is like, I can't go back here again.

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But actually, there's so much like, I'm kind of

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embarrassed in a way because there's been so much to learn that I'm like, okay, maybe I
didn't get it quite right the first time.

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I think the world now has more curiosity.

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So, and of course, we always talked about curiosity in all our things that we talk about.

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And you can feel it that people

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have, they're curious.

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But like, for example, I got to know my husband again, like, I mean, I did know him, but
it was that the thing that was different was he suddenly had to step up and be the

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breadwinner.

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He had to be the carer.

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He had to be the

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the person who looked after our son, he suddenly had to become all these things.

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And I think if I had been in the place that he was in and I said, my husband had a stroke,
I'm not in sure that I would actually have made it through.

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that I would have been actually been like I've so long because I was going okay with work
and I did things, I will say well, that I like I just had this head that said.

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I've got this, like I've got this, like you know, everything I've got this.

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I mean, it doesn't matter how you feel inside is what you say on the outside.

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And suddenly I had nothing.

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And so it's been really, really interesting to see my husband absolutely thrive.

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I mean, he would say, and shit and all this stuff, but what he'd really say is,

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I think I've, my, I have to step back and he's stepped forward and flown.

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So he really, yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's, I'll say enough.

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And for you that vulnerability, it sounds to me like it was a new experience or a
different level of vulnerability that it sounds like felt fresh and odd and curious within

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itself.

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I wonder if I can ask you both, and maybe Gill starting with you.

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When we first met, you were speaking a lot to the idea of wise optimism and the
transcendent emotions that we speak to, particularly in positive psychology, awe chasing.

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We connected a lot on those concepts.

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Where do you stand now?

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Maybe from a philosophical perspective and also what would you like to share with other
people in terms of, I heard you say before, I thought I'd learned and now I've learned

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more.

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And Jenny, I saw you shake your head.

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And I imagine that there's that, you know, there's a part that's like, but you already
knew so much that we all want to scream, but you also want to acknowledge that depth of

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discovery that I think maybe is creeping up there.

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What would you share about those big emotions that you've learned?

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Or experiences?

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Yeah, I think that we, in wise optimism, we talk about the the realization of the reality
that you're, and you have to accept it like this.

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There's some things that you haven't like, for example, now, for example, I have to, I
have to accept that there, the chances are I won't

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be able to work what I have, like I have in the past.

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In some way, it was gonna change.

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And I accept that, or at least I try to accept that.

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But also that if you, you can be really defeatist about that.

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And if you...

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And sometimes that would be, I think that's okay, like that's completely okay.

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But there's another piece of it that really hooks onto the hope of something different.

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And so it's realizing that those two emotions or...

214
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like yeah I'll call them emotions that are what that's that's got to be happening all the
time.

215
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Mmm, side by side.

216
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Yeah, and Jenny, how about for you?

217
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Yeah I'd agree with with what you're saying there Gill.

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There's and I've seen it in what you're the way that you've been since you had your stroke
as well.

219
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There's been that seeing the reality clearly as it is and I know that there's that's
almost like a constant having to relook at today's reality and then the next day comes

220
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along and then that today's reality.

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even the reality changes and yet I've also seen you take steps towards what you hope to be
a better future as well.

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So there's that combination really of seeing things clearly that acceptance of the way
that things are right now and yet being prepared to take some steps like not not being

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passive or giving up or giving in or anything like that.

224
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There's steps towards something being different.

225
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the future to the way that it is right now.

226
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And I guess I say all of this right now because I know Gill that you've you've gone
through a lot and right now you're experiencing a feeling of like okay is is this the way

227
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that it's going to be?

228
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So we're we're in a new stage of acceptance of reality right now.

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Not actually knowing what it's going to look like in the future and we'll never know but
this is where we're at right now.

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Yeah.

231
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Thank you for sharing.

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what I learned from you both as you share and particularly in hearing your story Gill, is
the maturity, it reminds me of the agility quotiant.

233
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So we talk about emotional intelligence, we talk about normal intelligence and then that
ability to be agile, to recognize that nothing

234
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that we have in our present moment experience is guaranteed, can be predicted.

235
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That's something that we all live with being human anyway.

236
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And the depth of appreciation of that reality is something I really am taking away from
what you're sharing.

237
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How is that translating then back into the work that you're both doing with leaders?

238
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What are you noticing as the responses as they lean in and they listen, they get curious?

239
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What are some of the reflections that are coming back?

240
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Jenny, I think you're well placed to do that.

241
00:25:20,088 --> 00:25:31,473
Yeah well I think there's such a spectrum, a range of people's responses to things like
this.

242
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Because yes that is part of what we do.

243
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We talk, we go into companies and we talk about awareness and we talk about wisdom and we
talk about compassion and we talk about acceptance and we talk about courage and integrity

244
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and beginner's mind and

245
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all sorts of things and there are some people who are leaning in yes I need to hear this I
want to hear this it makes it makes so much sense and I was I was running a program on

246
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Monday this week where that was everyone in the room they were so like yeah we need this
kind of thing right at the moment

247
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And then there will always be those people who are like, no, I'm not ready to hear this
yet.

248
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Or they're not even ready to say the bit that they're not ready to hear it yet.

249
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Like it's like a no, not for me type thing.

250
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:38,229
But I think in this age of AI as well, it's actually more important now than ever before
for us to, well, yes, make the most of everything that artificial intelligence has got to

251
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offer us, but more important now than ever before for us to double down on our human
qualities.

252
00:26:45,735 --> 00:26:54,380
And that's also part of, I guess, the message of what you've gone through, Gill, is that

253
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I, and if I answer this from the perspective of watching, it's the connections and the
friendships that you've got all around you that love, that care from a million billion

254
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gazillion people.

255
00:27:12,515 --> 00:27:19,298
And that's one of the things that I learned about Gill post stroke was that there are
actually so many people who love and adore her.

256
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So it just goes to show that when

257
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But yeah, mean, times of deep challenge and crisis, that it is that humanity that makes
the big difference.

258
00:27:34,475 --> 00:27:40,176
That is everything, that care and that compassion and that support, that action.

259
00:27:40,176 --> 00:27:41,597
Like that's what compassion is.

260
00:27:41,597 --> 00:27:45,458
It's action to alleviate other people's suffering or our own.

261
00:27:45,898 --> 00:27:53,003
And yeah, saw that very much with everything that you've gone through, And it's good to
see that also being...

262
00:27:53,218 --> 00:27:59,887
discussed within corporate world as well, the need for those qualities.

263
00:28:02,107 --> 00:28:09,261
I'm glad you brought AI to that conversation because it does feel like we're at a
precipice at the moment, a tipping point, a choice point.

264
00:28:09,871 --> 00:28:21,079
you know, do we, do we try and keep up with the advancements in faster, faster, faster,
which we've really bred a hustle culture that, that is seeing its worth and its value in,

265
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the more, more, mindset.

266
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And, and the choice point is, is to sit and to reflect on, what is it that we as humans
are actually bringing to the table as this, the competitive advantage, if you like, you

267
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know, what can we contribute back, to be this and with AI.

268
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So I love the work that you're doing in that space and helping people to come back to
connection, to come back to curiosity and to come back to love.

269
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It's so important and big.

270
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It seems almost absurd that it should be, but it is.

271
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It's where we are right now.

272
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So thank you for sharing all of that.

273
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Yeah.

274
00:28:59,255 --> 00:29:07,779
even just what you said then there are a things in what you were saying that just really
rings true that you've used the word choice a couple of times and that is really really

275
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important because that's where we talk about self-awareness and awareness of others as
well because with this awareness we can then come face to face with the choices that we're

276
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making and as you said Mazz it's really important that we are at a choice point.

277
00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:36,294
you also talked about the hustle and the busy busy busy so in fact things are going to
come at us even faster but that calls upon us to be intentional about the moments when we

278
00:29:36,294 --> 00:29:47,151
actually need to slow down where we need to slow down and we need to have that wise
discernment about all of this data that's coming our way and how can we therefore use that

279
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for the purposes of care and compassion so yeah what you've said is really true

280
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in what we're seeing

281
00:29:56,182 --> 00:30:04,189
Yeah, thank you for expanding upon it too It makes me think about the conversation around
inclusive impact and how leaders can be inclusive.

282
00:30:04,189 --> 00:30:13,323
What have you learned in terms of your journey together around creating an inclusive
workplace for yourselves as a partnership as that's evolving?

283
00:30:13,323 --> 00:30:15,094
Because I appreciate it's not static.

284
00:30:15,094 --> 00:30:19,456
It's going to need to move and evolve and be agile in itself.

285
00:30:19,456 --> 00:30:29,261
And then what are you sharing with other leaders who wanting to lean into how they can be
both rather than it being this maybe it has to be a choice.

286
00:30:29,261 --> 00:30:34,213
Maybe you can't be inclusive and be financially profitable.

287
00:30:34,213 --> 00:30:39,175
I would argue that's probably not the case but I'm really curious to hear what's your
experience there.

288
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:40,675
Hmm.

289
00:30:41,526 --> 00:30:42,238
I think just.

290
00:30:42,238 --> 00:30:44,012
where you are at the moment?

291
00:30:44,352 --> 00:30:52,886
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, for example, watching Jenny do everything at the
moment.

292
00:30:53,247 --> 00:31:04,673
And I think it's like really interesting that what choices does she make?

293
00:31:04,673 --> 00:31:10,736
for me, I'm going through a similar process, like what choice am I going to make?

294
00:31:11,677 --> 00:31:13,798
What needs to be happened today?

295
00:31:14,036 --> 00:31:26,576
And for me, for example, just get like I've been going, going at quite a pace over the
last couple of weeks.

296
00:31:27,037 --> 00:31:35,724
And then, my body's saying, you can't do this, you cannot.

297
00:31:35,825 --> 00:31:41,309
And so all of a sudden I know I'm being able to,

298
00:31:42,444 --> 00:31:46,455
told I have to slow down, like my body's telling me that have slow down.

299
00:31:46,455 --> 00:32:05,261
But actually, that doesn't mean that I can't in, in, in, in still include some different
ideas, but they're in a different way or a different time.

300
00:32:05,521 --> 00:32:08,813
But Jen, I've been really interested in what you've been doing.

301
00:32:08,813 --> 00:32:10,053
Really?

302
00:32:10,053 --> 00:32:12,793
I'm wondering what that might be specifically.

303
00:32:17,033 --> 00:32:25,333
So, well, Maz, which bit of that would you want me to start on first?

304
00:32:25,333 --> 00:32:29,201
Like the, the us being the kind of thing you call it.

305
00:32:29,201 --> 00:32:39,258
imagining Gill might be speaking to, and maybe I'm just picking up on something earlier in
the conversation around the vulnerability that comes from an identity that was, from my

306
00:32:39,258 --> 00:32:48,504
impression of you and from what I've heard you share, highly achiever, highly productive,
being the one who would almost lead the Project and push the Project and be the idea

307
00:32:48,504 --> 00:32:50,995
generator, but then be the executor as well.

308
00:32:51,812 --> 00:33:00,872
And I'm imagining in the same way that there's a vulnerability in a romantic relationship
and a marriage to take a step back and go, wow, somebody else is stepping into the role

309
00:33:00,872 --> 00:33:02,882
that I assumed I had to do.

310
00:33:02,882 --> 00:33:06,052
And that if I didn't do it, this whole thing was going to fall apart.

311
00:33:06,052 --> 00:33:07,886
I'm imagining that.

312
00:33:07,886 --> 00:33:16,895
that maybe there's similar patterns going on in terms of what it might be like to reassess
and reevaluate what is my role in this business moving forward.

313
00:33:16,895 --> 00:33:22,570
And here's this business partner that we had a different dynamic with prior to a stroke.

314
00:33:22,570 --> 00:33:28,696
And now I'm watching Jenny do all of these things and I'm curious about that and I'm
seeing a new version of her.

315
00:33:28,696 --> 00:33:30,496
That's where I went to in my head.

316
00:33:30,496 --> 00:33:32,259
I don't know if any of that.

317
00:33:32,896 --> 00:33:46,023
is ringing true and if so I guess Jenny my question to you would be what is it like to
re-evaluate your role and what's it like to have someone that you work with professionally

318
00:33:46,023 --> 00:33:47,404
so closely

319
00:33:48,195 --> 00:33:51,736
who's not opting out because that could be an option.

320
00:33:51,736 --> 00:33:57,656
You know, a lot of organizations, a lot of employees, a lot of business partners would go,
okay, well, things have changed.

321
00:33:57,656 --> 00:34:00,096
So I'm out, you know, good luck on your go.

322
00:34:00,096 --> 00:34:09,656
Whereas there's something that's happening with your with your dynamic, whether it be
intentional, conscious, or whether it's evolving, that you're opting in and you're leaning

323
00:34:09,656 --> 00:34:11,806
in and going, well, let's redesign this.

324
00:34:11,806 --> 00:34:13,565
So I guess I'm curious about that.

325
00:34:13,565 --> 00:34:16,794
And let me tell you guys, all Jenny.

326
00:34:16,794 --> 00:34:18,254
It's all Jenny.

327
00:34:18,254 --> 00:34:19,332
driving it.

328
00:34:20,937 --> 00:34:21,996
Amazing.

329
00:34:23,117 --> 00:34:24,108
In what way?

330
00:34:27,725 --> 00:34:34,879
How did you, in what way would you say Gill, like I'll let you finish that bit and then
I'll just.

331
00:34:36,822 --> 00:34:44,284
Because obviously from the day of my stroke you have been unbelievable, unbelievable.

332
00:34:44,704 --> 00:35:02,362
And in that moment Jenny was actually given the role of the Potential Project director and
has gone ahead with the just absolutely the

333
00:35:03,177 --> 00:35:08,077
greatest intention and the greatest outcome.

334
00:35:08,997 --> 00:35:23,877
But now we're talking about how does this become, how does this continue and what is, what
is tools?

335
00:35:25,357 --> 00:35:31,617
But yeah, it's been, and it is a,

336
00:35:36,730 --> 00:35:40,197
a live question.

337
00:35:40,396 --> 00:35:44,429
Yeah, that's a beautiful way of describing it, a live question, it's unfolding.

338
00:35:44,512 --> 00:35:45,305
Yeah.

339
00:35:45,305 --> 00:35:46,665
I know very well,

340
00:35:49,530 --> 00:35:53,878
Well, gosh, there's so much that I could say about all of that.

341
00:35:53,979 --> 00:35:55,241
I think that...

342
00:35:57,737 --> 00:36:06,732
It's been hard to see what Gill has had to face, what you've gone through, Gill.

343
00:36:06,732 --> 00:36:07,572
And...

344
00:36:10,573 --> 00:36:14,393
and continues to go through as well.

345
00:36:14,393 --> 00:36:16,773
I feel...

346
00:36:18,355 --> 00:36:34,890
feel like my like my meditation practice actually is so supportive through all of this
because this is just about helping us to be with what is and meditation and all of the

347
00:36:34,890 --> 00:36:47,893
framework around it which is all of the learnings and the teachings that come from
millennia actually has really helped me to just be able to be with what is.

348
00:36:48,073 --> 00:36:55,238
at the moment and ongoingly and letting go of the expectations of what things might be
like in the future.

349
00:36:55,298 --> 00:37:06,886
Knowing that there's desires for way for the way that things might be in the future and
and they might be not wanting things to be a certain way you know whatever whatever but

350
00:37:06,886 --> 00:37:17,113
all of this is about helping me helping us perhaps but certainly helping me just to be
with things the way that they are.

351
00:37:17,501 --> 00:37:32,166
And there's also just a letting go of of ego like I think from both of our perspectives
there's been the need just to stay humble through all of this.

352
00:37:32,166 --> 00:37:42,028
To stay humble, just to stay curious, just to have care and compassion as the number one
thing and yet

353
00:37:42,028 --> 00:37:42,805
Mmm.

354
00:37:42,805 --> 00:37:46,507
I never have let Potential Project go through all of this.

355
00:37:46,507 --> 00:37:50,448
Like my commitment to Potential Project has been really huge.

356
00:37:51,089 --> 00:38:01,734
So even though, and especially for that first year, like I'd go and visit you every week
in hospital, Gill, or, you know, or maybe it wasn't quite a whole year because you were in

357
00:38:01,734 --> 00:38:02,974
hospital for how long was it?

358
00:38:02,974 --> 00:38:04,535
Nine months?

359
00:38:04,535 --> 00:38:04,860
10?

360
00:38:04,860 --> 00:38:05,695
Eight?

361
00:38:06,196 --> 00:38:06,885
Yeah, 10.

362
00:38:06,885 --> 00:38:07,796
10 months.

363
00:38:07,796 --> 00:38:08,697
That's right.

364
00:38:08,697 --> 00:38:09,577
So...

365
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:20,451
I'd go visit Gill in hospital every week and because I live in the Blue Mountains that's
like a half day out of my day, half a day each week.

366
00:38:20,752 --> 00:38:24,032
And that was critically important to do that.

367
00:38:24,533 --> 00:38:27,864
And I could still do Potential Project at the same time.

368
00:38:27,864 --> 00:38:31,014
There was a myriad of other stuff going on in my life as well.

369
00:38:31,775 --> 00:38:40,267
I think what I'm trying to say is that it's just to being with what is but being driven by
the North Star of care and compassion has been.

370
00:38:40,267 --> 00:38:47,680
really important and knowing that that doesn't mean that I have to let other things go in
order to bring in that caring compassion.

371
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,421
It's possible to do both.

372
00:38:50,101 --> 00:38:54,443
I don't know if I've answered your question actually now I'm trying to remember what the
question was.

373
00:38:54,443 --> 00:38:55,343
Better.

374
00:38:57,410 --> 00:38:59,432
You took us on a beautiful journey.

375
00:38:59,432 --> 00:39:04,476
For me, the main message and the takeaway that I'm sitting with is to sit with what is.

376
00:39:04,476 --> 00:39:11,882
And I think that is just such a brilliant message and so timely within itself for me
personally.

377
00:39:11,882 --> 00:39:19,338
But I think for a lot of our listeners, especially as there's a lot of change happening
right now, and there's always been change, it's just that right now it feels like there's

378
00:39:19,338 --> 00:39:21,340
exponential change happening.

379
00:39:21,468 --> 00:39:28,013
for a lot of people, whether it be personally in their lives for health reasons, work
reasons, globally as well.

380
00:39:28,013 --> 00:39:40,771
so that, yeah, that what you've gifted me at least, and hopefully our listeners as well,
is a sense of modeling that with change comes that uncertainty.

381
00:39:40,771 --> 00:39:50,408
And a lot of that uncertainty invites us to let go of prior expectations and to redesign
how we want to define ourselves moving forward.

382
00:39:50,462 --> 00:39:54,961
and the business has a place in that definition process.

383
00:39:54,961 --> 00:39:59,328
I love the fluidity that you're putting on the table is what I'm trying to say.

384
00:40:01,432 --> 00:40:12,051
yeah, I think that the change, if we can let go of our expectations, we can also then
reduce suffering around Potential change.

385
00:40:12,051 --> 00:40:23,129
It just allows us to sort of be with things the way they are without amping up the
suffering by thinking that it should be different.

386
00:40:23,830 --> 00:40:27,393
And I think I mentioned that it's been hard because I still

387
00:40:27,393 --> 00:40:36,110
Like there are so many videos I've got of Gill pre-stroke talking and delivering programs
and being in conferences and listening on podcasts.

388
00:40:36,110 --> 00:40:41,605
And every time I come across one of those, there is that little arrow in my heart.

389
00:40:41,605 --> 00:40:53,454
And I can't even imagine what it would be like in your heart, Gill, which is just coming
face to face again with those realities about impermanence and about suffering.

390
00:40:54,476 --> 00:40:55,036
Yeah.

391
00:40:55,036 --> 00:40:56,257
And how

392
00:40:56,405 --> 00:41:12,199
who we think we are is in fact not us like this not self concept of we think we're a
certain way and then just life comes along and says no you're not and and I guess each

393
00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:23,632
time I see those videos I get that pain in my heart and then like I said I can't I can't
even imagine what the pain would be like for you Gill and then I just have that reminder

394
00:41:23,632 --> 00:41:25,921
again I've just just got to be with things the way they are.

395
00:41:25,921 --> 00:41:27,742
This is just the way that it is.

396
00:41:28,204 --> 00:41:33,341
It's not personal to you or me and it's, you know, we all face it, but sorry.

397
00:41:33,341 --> 00:41:35,803
There's a grief and a loss for what was.

398
00:41:35,884 --> 00:41:41,039
And then a sitting with that and a sitting it side by side with what is as well.

399
00:41:41,039 --> 00:41:44,793
I mean, you're just, you're just still that bright shining light.

400
00:41:46,276 --> 00:41:50,070
I hope that's a good piece of information and use reflection for you.

401
00:41:50,070 --> 00:41:54,324
But I mean, gosh, but it's both, isn't it?

402
00:41:54,581 --> 00:42:04,901
used to be in a band and I used to not, I mean, was in my 40s for about 10 years.

403
00:42:04,901 --> 00:42:06,561
it's not that great.

404
00:42:06,561 --> 00:42:14,521
But what I was really, it was really interesting is I used to say, I'm hopeless.

405
00:42:14,521 --> 00:42:15,981
Like I'm hopeless.

406
00:42:15,981 --> 00:42:18,793
And now I look at those

407
00:42:18,793 --> 00:42:23,773
videos, I realized that and I go, wow, I was actually really good.

408
00:42:23,773 --> 00:42:33,493
Like, it's not that I was really, really good as in the voice or something like that that
we see on television, but actually I was really good.

409
00:42:33,493 --> 00:42:39,273
And, and I think now I should have celebrated that.

410
00:42:39,273 --> 00:42:47,389
And I bet everyone on the podcast listening now would say, have things they say.

411
00:42:47,409 --> 00:42:49,610
I wish I was better at that.

412
00:42:49,770 --> 00:43:00,494
And my voice to those people is just give yourself space and the cues of showing up.

413
00:43:00,554 --> 00:43:17,061
Like it's just so amazing how that what you can put into something that you never
recognize that it is a real achievement.

414
00:43:18,328 --> 00:43:28,261
That is such a nice segue because I wanted to ask you about achievements, Last time I
heard you speak, you know, there were moments like finding group in one hand that you

415
00:43:28,261 --> 00:43:32,492
didn't know if you'd get back again, kicking down the lane of a pool.

416
00:43:33,012 --> 00:43:36,834
Would you feel comfortable sharing some of some of the achievements that you're noting?

417
00:43:36,834 --> 00:43:43,573
Can you just give me a see of where you're going with this question?

418
00:43:43,965 --> 00:43:53,928
Sure, I don't necessarily have a set expectation of your answer, but I'm curious about
your recovery and how you're feeling in terms of those mini achievements that others might

419
00:43:53,928 --> 00:43:55,508
be surprised by.

420
00:43:55,705 --> 00:44:04,552
I think so many people take, for example, it's for granted that you could grip a hand, but
when you lose your ability for a hand grip, that's a big moment.

421
00:44:04,552 --> 00:44:05,892
Taking a step is big moment.

422
00:44:05,892 --> 00:44:07,212
Finding a word.

423
00:44:07,212 --> 00:44:09,409
Yeah, what are you celebrating at the moment?

424
00:44:09,409 --> 00:44:10,549
Thank you.

425
00:44:11,230 --> 00:44:36,410
So, well at the moment the things I'm working on are my knee and making it go up a step
without it being it before, so it is like it just needs to be stronger and

426
00:44:36,562 --> 00:44:43,866
And in the reality is it probably won't be strong enough to actually walk with it.

427
00:44:45,507 --> 00:44:49,108
I want to get it as strong as it can be.

428
00:44:49,142 --> 00:45:06,478
So I'm celebrating when I make tiny, tiny, like just like I, yesterday I had like eight,
going up and down stairs.

429
00:45:06,526 --> 00:45:09,568
And tomorrow I would want to try and do nine.

430
00:45:10,329 --> 00:45:31,283
So it is that basic, basic like, you know, but the same thing was like a, one of the
things is I can't, I'm right-handed and now my right hand's busted.

431
00:45:31,283 --> 00:45:35,666
my left can, can, can,

432
00:45:35,746 --> 00:45:40,906
I want to be able to write my diary with my left hand.

433
00:45:41,126 --> 00:45:56,386
And so I've been doing like, I started with the brown, do you remember the words?

434
00:45:57,086 --> 00:46:04,889
brown, a fast dog, like, anyway, it was a

435
00:46:04,889 --> 00:46:07,142
fox jumped over that one.

436
00:46:07,897 --> 00:46:09,027
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

437
00:46:09,027 --> 00:46:15,418
I had to think because when it comes to those types of little, I also get stuck on my
mind, but great.

438
00:46:16,366 --> 00:46:24,993
So I was doing that and was writing it 12 times and then I got, then I got to the end of
two months and I thought, far out, I'm bored of this.

439
00:46:25,094 --> 00:46:37,804
So I went and got some Brené Brown and I just tried, I said, okay, I'm going to write out
a page of her every day.

440
00:46:37,844 --> 00:46:40,236
And that was good.

441
00:46:40,236 --> 00:46:45,120
like just being able to write so that you can, people,

442
00:46:45,194 --> 00:46:46,535
actually can read it.

443
00:46:46,535 --> 00:46:49,697
So now my family can read it.

444
00:46:49,697 --> 00:46:52,138
they can read that I've written.

445
00:46:52,138 --> 00:47:12,620
So it's like just, you know, each day that the tiniest thing that you can do that she sees
that you're actually making progress and be.

446
00:47:12,620 --> 00:47:22,222
grateful for those things and give up all of the bashing around things you can't do
because you know it always will be.

447
00:47:23,313 --> 00:47:34,318
And that's for all of us, that perseverance and that grit and that willingness to step
into something that's hard without necessarily knowing the outcome and then measuring and

448
00:47:34,318 --> 00:47:36,290
celebrating that success.

449
00:47:36,391 --> 00:47:37,173
Thank you.

450
00:47:37,173 --> 00:47:39,695
That's very inspiring.

451
00:47:40,559 --> 00:47:44,073
you've been so generous with your time and I'm conscious of energy levels.

452
00:47:44,073 --> 00:47:53,072
I would normally have all of these additional quick fire around questions that I'm not
going to put you through but I do have two if you feel like you've got the energy left for

453
00:47:53,072 --> 00:47:53,983
both.

454
00:47:54,544 --> 00:48:02,812
The first one is what comes to mind when you think of the word having or the words of
having an impact mindset.

455
00:48:08,130 --> 00:48:09,253
Go at din.

456
00:48:09,538 --> 00:48:10,741
I can see.

457
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:12,068
Got it.

458
00:48:13,699 --> 00:48:32,171
Well, I know I've been saying this probably a couple of times during it today, but I think
an impact mindset has to start with self-awareness and from self-awareness, it's then

459
00:48:32,432 --> 00:48:40,308
having that capacity to discern the wisdom of what to do with that awareness and

460
00:48:40,308 --> 00:48:45,793
that can only be supported by doing so with care and compassion.

461
00:48:45,793 --> 00:48:51,236
So they're the three things that I've mentioned before, but I think are relevant to this
answer as well.

462
00:48:51,317 --> 00:48:55,690
Yeah, an impact mindset has to include awareness, wisdom and compassion.

463
00:48:56,914 --> 00:48:58,769
Yeah.

464
00:48:58,945 --> 00:48:59,556
I like that.

465
00:48:59,556 --> 00:49:01,099
That's giving me some food for thought.

466
00:49:01,099 --> 00:49:01,800
Thanks Jenny.

467
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:02,717
How about you, Gill?

468
00:49:02,717 --> 00:49:04,646
Anything come to mind when you think of those words?

469
00:49:04,646 --> 00:49:05,997
Impact mindset?

470
00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:14,123
I for me, I definitely can concur with Jenny.

471
00:49:14,123 --> 00:49:17,045
I think that is really very wise.

472
00:49:17,245 --> 00:49:26,560
And the day by day thing of it is just do the best you can.

473
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:32,194
And sometimes even the best you can is just actually doing not very much.

474
00:49:32,194 --> 00:49:35,536
Like just, like just.

475
00:49:36,112 --> 00:49:41,419
keep going and keep going and keep going and also rest.

476
00:49:43,073 --> 00:49:45,618
Yes, yes to rest.

477
00:49:45,618 --> 00:49:47,311
We can all do with a bit more of that.

478
00:49:47,311 --> 00:49:48,593
Thank you.

479
00:49:49,215 --> 00:49:51,700
This one's a big one.

480
00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:53,242
See how you feel.

481
00:49:53,343 --> 00:49:55,707
What does it mean to live a meaningful life?

482
00:49:59,526 --> 00:50:00,632
Is that the question?

483
00:50:00,632 --> 00:50:01,519
Yeah.

484
00:50:01,753 --> 00:50:03,041
Where do you start?

485
00:50:06,452 --> 00:50:16,370
That's a very interesting question because it's a question that I'm asking myself day,
literally day by day and actually more than once a day.

486
00:50:17,472 --> 00:50:34,566
I think that it's always got to be for me compassion, compassion for self and compassion
for others that if you...

487
00:50:34,834 --> 00:51:02,305
take from that and see from that place everything, even the smallest, like if I go
downstairs and one of the people who works in the building is like just smiling at him and

488
00:51:02,305 --> 00:51:04,026
to see

489
00:51:04,264 --> 00:51:11,936
that sometimes it actually makes a bit of a difference to his day, I'm told.

490
00:51:11,936 --> 00:51:14,777
It's okay.

491
00:51:14,777 --> 00:51:32,062
It's like whatever it is that can be of worth that really to me and certainly for family
as well, that would be good enough for me today.

492
00:51:34,277 --> 00:51:35,258
Thank you.

493
00:51:36,626 --> 00:51:38,952
Jenny, throw to you.

494
00:51:39,276 --> 00:51:41,567
Yeah, a very, very similar answer.

495
00:51:41,567 --> 00:51:43,948
I've been reflecting on that quite a lot.

496
00:51:43,948 --> 00:51:48,581
And what does it mean to lead a meaningful life?

497
00:51:48,581 --> 00:51:58,865
For me, it is about the care for people, the humanity that is possible to do in any
setting.

498
00:51:59,586 --> 00:51:59,907
And...

499
00:51:59,907 --> 00:52:04,839
That doesn't mean that we can't do hard things or that we can't have hard conversations.

500
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:18,545
But what I'm talking about is just a meaningful life is one where we see the humanity in
people and we act with care and that care can be there in all sorts of different settings.

501
00:52:18,545 --> 00:52:19,886
It can be there with strangers.

502
00:52:19,886 --> 00:52:23,387
It can be there with the people who we've known our entire life.

503
00:52:23,387 --> 00:52:27,569
It can be there with anyone in between and...

504
00:52:29,929 --> 00:52:43,127
think that's that if I was to say the number one thing it my answer today is that my
answer tomorrow might change a little bit but that's how I feel right now as well that

505
00:52:43,127 --> 00:52:45,089
right that's how I feel right now.

506
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:48,601
I love that.

507
00:52:48,601 --> 00:52:50,242
Thank you so much.

508
00:52:51,095 --> 00:52:53,769
so much in today's conversation.

509
00:52:53,769 --> 00:52:56,844
Before I let you go and say goodbye, is there anything that we've missed?

510
00:52:56,844 --> 00:53:02,381
Is there anything that you want our listeners to really take away and to think about?

511
00:53:02,723 --> 00:53:04,024
Call to action.

512
00:53:08,725 --> 00:53:33,585
I think mine is just for me, it's funny because I've been thinking about this a lot and
just being witness to the dignity of the human spirit, it's just so, it's so, just so.

513
00:53:33,585 --> 00:53:53,835
interesting, interesting in my head, but also I love it from my heart and so the thing
that I would hope that I keep doing, it's just bearing witness and that, that, you know,

514
00:53:53,835 --> 00:53:58,577
what can be from there is, we'll see what we see.

515
00:54:00,458 --> 00:54:01,611
delicious.

516
00:54:01,611 --> 00:54:02,864
Thank you Jenny.

517
00:54:02,864 --> 00:54:06,441
Is there anything that you haven't said that you'd like our listeners to be left with?

518
00:54:07,001 --> 00:54:19,580
Well I think just coming off the back of what you were saying before about pre-stroke, she
didn't really appreciate the fact that she was a really great musician and all these other

519
00:54:19,580 --> 00:54:20,550
things as well.

520
00:54:20,550 --> 00:54:33,619
So I think for people listening, I think that might be that little bit of call to action
is what is it that is that have that we've got in our life right now that we have achieved

521
00:54:33,619 --> 00:54:36,057
or that we've done or that we've given or that we've

522
00:54:36,057 --> 00:54:46,177
whatever it might be that because it's a positive thing we're not seeing it because we're
so busy looking at the the negative things or the things that we want to be different in

523
00:54:46,177 --> 00:54:47,257
some way.

524
00:54:47,257 --> 00:55:01,497
So I think that and thanks to you all for pointing that out that what is it right now that
if we looked back on it later we would think wow that was amazing.

525
00:55:01,597 --> 00:55:04,599
So why we just look that out and be

526
00:55:04,599 --> 00:55:08,981
Be amazed now as we're in the middle of actually experiencing this thing.

527
00:55:10,312 --> 00:55:11,455
Beautiful.

528
00:55:11,501 --> 00:55:12,525
Beautiful.

529
00:55:12,713 --> 00:55:15,936
It comes back to that mindful set of being, doesn't it?

530
00:55:15,936 --> 00:55:17,026
Where can people find you?

531
00:55:17,026 --> 00:55:19,876
Because I know they're going to want to follow up with a Potential Project.

532
00:55:19,876 --> 00:55:21,896
Get amongst what's happening.

533
00:55:22,505 --> 00:55:23,255
Thank you.

534
00:55:23,255 --> 00:55:25,705
We would love it if people did follow up with Potential Project.

535
00:55:25,705 --> 00:55:34,095
We've got our next book coming out by Harvard Business Review in March, which is all about
how we can know the AI and the human leadership.

536
00:55:34,095 --> 00:55:36,665
So we've got a lot to do in that space.

537
00:55:36,705 --> 00:55:42,845
So people can learn more about Potential Project at potentialproject.com.

538
00:55:42,845 --> 00:55:46,695
Gill and I are both on LinkedIn and you can find us there.

539
00:55:46,695 --> 00:55:49,325
And I've got my Jenny Stedman website.

540
00:55:49,325 --> 00:55:52,453
So it's jennistedman.com.au.

541
00:55:52,453 --> 00:56:00,498
And that has a bit of a catch-all of everything that I do around the Potential Project
work and then the mindfulness meditation work.

542
00:56:00,498 --> 00:56:04,943
also I do a lot with advocacy for people who've experienced sexual violence.

543
00:56:04,943 --> 00:56:08,325
So that's all mentioned there on my website as well.

544
00:56:08,425 --> 00:56:12,328
So people can find us through those means.

545
00:56:12,666 --> 00:56:13,336
Amazing.

546
00:56:13,336 --> 00:56:20,455
I'll drop links into the show notes too, so if you're listening, there are so many places
to stay in touch with these two incredible women.

547
00:56:20,455 --> 00:56:28,064
You've both been, this conversation has just expanded my thinking and my heart and my soul
and my hope.

548
00:56:28,104 --> 00:56:32,877
for not only the future, but this very present moment and today in general and everything
that is in front of us.

549
00:56:32,877 --> 00:56:39,442
So thank you so much for joining us and to our listeners, thank you again for another
episode, being a part of it.

550
00:56:39,442 --> 00:56:42,214
Classroom 5.0, your interest in inclusive impact.

551
00:56:42,214 --> 00:56:43,314
We'll see you next time.