WEBVTT 00:00:00.180 --> 00:00:00.600 Matt Abrahams: Hi. 00:00:00.720 --> 00:00:01.380 Matt here. 00:00:01.830 --> 00:00:04.410 Our world is getting more and more complex. 00:00:04.710 --> 00:00:07.890 When communicating about complexity we need to work to make ideas 00:00:07.890 --> 00:00:12.720 accessible rather than simply dumb things down or oversimplify. 00:00:13.290 --> 00:00:17.400 We're diving into our archive to bring you a Rethinks episode where I speak 00:00:17.400 --> 00:00:22.529 with Lauren Weinstein about specific techniques we can use to help our audience 00:00:22.529 --> 00:00:25.169 better understand our complex topics. 00:00:25.754 --> 00:00:30.374 Enjoy one of our very first, but still very relevant episodes. 00:00:32.474 --> 00:00:35.804 We've all been in situations where someone explained something to us that 00:00:35.804 --> 00:00:39.765 went over our heads or didn't land because it wasn't relevant or meaningful. 00:00:41.384 --> 00:00:42.474 I'm Matt Abrahams. 00:00:42.494 --> 00:00:46.989 I teach strategic communication at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. 00:00:47.530 --> 00:00:50.830 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:52.870 --> 00:00:56.890 In this episode, we'll chat with Lauren Weinstein as we explore specific 00:00:56.890 --> 00:01:00.640 techniques you can use to help your audience understand the complex 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:02.440 information that you need them to. 00:01:02.979 --> 00:01:06.610 In other words, we hope to find the antidote to the curse of knowledge. 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:08.494 Hey, Lauren, how are you doing? 00:01:09.690 --> 00:01:10.000 Lauren Weinstein: Great. 00:01:10.020 --> 00:01:11.250 Glad to be with you here today. 00:01:11.490 --> 00:01:13.770 Matt Abrahams: Like me, Lauren is a lecturer at Stanford's 00:01:13.770 --> 00:01:14.970 Graduate School of Business. 00:01:15.089 --> 00:01:17.910 Together for over five years, we've co-taught a class on 00:01:17.910 --> 00:01:19.110 strategic communication. 00:01:19.259 --> 00:01:23.100 In addition to this work, she also has a very popular TEDx talk called 00:01:23.100 --> 00:01:24.929 Don't Believe Everything You Think. 00:01:25.350 --> 00:01:28.589 So Lauren, as teachers and coaches we often have to explain complex 00:01:28.589 --> 00:01:32.610 ideas so others can understand them, but lots of other folks also have to 00:01:32.639 --> 00:01:36.839 take complex technical or scientific information and make it accessible. 00:01:37.380 --> 00:01:40.229 Can you talk about some of the examples you use in class that you've 00:01:40.229 --> 00:01:41.759 seen where people need to do this? 00:01:42.059 --> 00:01:42.359 Lauren Weinstein: Yes. 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:43.499 I see this all the time. 00:01:43.499 --> 00:01:47.190 I see it with doctors, scientists, researchers, when they need to 00:01:47.190 --> 00:01:50.520 communicate their content to lay-audiences, whether it's at a 00:01:50.520 --> 00:01:52.559 conference or they're seeking funding. 00:01:53.160 --> 00:01:56.429 I see it a lot in business when engineers have to communicate with 00:01:56.429 --> 00:02:01.080 product managers, when marketing teams need to communicate with customers, and 00:02:01.080 --> 00:02:05.190 then also when executives and founders need to communicate their strategy, 00:02:05.190 --> 00:02:09.060 for example, to their org and get everyone on board and in alignment. 00:02:09.150 --> 00:02:12.630 And then also, of course, with startup, they have constantly needing to 00:02:12.660 --> 00:02:17.460 pitch investors and sell to customers and make whatever their product or 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:19.890 service is more accessible for them. 00:02:20.640 --> 00:02:23.549 Matt Abrahams: It sounds like almost everybody has situations. 00:02:23.609 --> 00:02:23.700 Lauren Weinstein: Yes. 00:02:23.700 --> 00:02:24.209 Across the board. 00:02:24.329 --> 00:02:24.959 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:02:25.050 --> 00:02:28.019 In our class we spend a lot of time talking about being in 00:02:28.019 --> 00:02:31.800 service of the audience rather than just focusing on the content. 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:33.660 Do you wanna share a few of your thoughts about being 00:02:33.660 --> 00:02:35.459 audience-centric and what that means? 00:02:35.760 --> 00:02:36.120 Lauren Weinstein: Yes. 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:39.269 Whenever I work with a new client, no matter who they are or what 00:02:39.269 --> 00:02:43.350 their topic is, the first question I always ask is, who is your audience? 00:02:43.380 --> 00:02:45.149 And what do they care about most? 00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:47.490 Uh, and I'll give you an example of why this matters. 00:02:47.519 --> 00:02:52.305 In 2001, Apple and Steve Jobs came out with the original iPod. 00:02:52.515 --> 00:02:56.475 The engineers were really excited because it was going to be five gigabytes of data. 00:02:56.834 --> 00:02:57.825 So exciting for them. 00:02:57.825 --> 00:03:02.025 But if they came out with this message to audiences and customers, less exciting, 00:03:02.025 --> 00:03:03.435 they didn't know what that means. 00:03:03.435 --> 00:03:04.454 Is, is that a lot? 00:03:04.665 --> 00:03:08.235 So instead they said a thousand songs in your pocket. 00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:09.510 Matt Abrahams: I remember that. 00:03:09.720 --> 00:03:10.200 Lauren Weinstein: Yes. 00:03:10.200 --> 00:03:13.710 So they spoke in a way that was aligned with their audience's level of 00:03:13.710 --> 00:03:15.270 knowledge and what they cared about. 00:03:15.270 --> 00:03:18.900 They cared about how many songs they could fit, and so it's really important 00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:22.320 to speak in a way that's aligned with your audience's level of knowledge, but 00:03:22.320 --> 00:03:26.430 also in terms of what they care about most and, and translating it to that extent. 00:03:26.670 --> 00:03:27.360 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:30.630 And I think that example really highlights how people can fixate 00:03:30.630 --> 00:03:34.140 on the specific information rather than thinking about what's relevant 00:03:34.140 --> 00:03:35.640 and important to their audience. 00:03:35.640 --> 00:03:37.470 It's really about what the audience needs. 00:03:38.084 --> 00:03:42.015 Beyond that audience-centric approach, uh, I've also found that people tend 00:03:42.015 --> 00:03:46.425 to provide more information than is needed to help their audience really 00:03:46.425 --> 00:03:47.665 understand what they're saying. 00:03:48.255 --> 00:03:50.715 You know, it reminds me, I, I know I've shared this with you before, 00:03:50.715 --> 00:03:52.155 my mother has this wonderful saying. 00:03:52.215 --> 00:03:55.125 It's tell me the time, don't build me the clock. 00:03:55.155 --> 00:03:58.455 We really need to help people get to the bottom line earlier. 00:03:58.545 --> 00:04:01.725 We have to communicate concisely, especially when we're dealing 00:04:01.725 --> 00:04:03.435 with complex information. 00:04:03.525 --> 00:04:08.025 You know, I think with this idea of being audience-centric and concise, we 00:04:08.025 --> 00:04:12.105 can really get into some of the specific tools that folks can use to help make 00:04:12.105 --> 00:04:14.775 their complex information more accessible. 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:17.850 Can you share with me an example of someone you've worked with who did a 00:04:17.850 --> 00:04:21.480 really good job explaining something complex, to get us started looking 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:23.520 at these particular tools people use? 00:04:23.880 --> 00:04:24.210 Lauren Weinstein: Yes. 00:04:24.210 --> 00:04:24.840 Happy to. 00:04:24.900 --> 00:04:27.630 I worked with a TED speaker a while back. 00:04:27.810 --> 00:04:32.070 His talk was about a treatment that he developed for age-related diseases 00:04:32.070 --> 00:04:34.080 such as Alzheimer's and dementia. 00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:38.280 When he first came to me, his first draft talked a lot about mitochondria 00:04:38.280 --> 00:04:40.560 and prokaryotic cells and cell membranes. 00:04:41.250 --> 00:04:43.860 Which is really exciting for him and other scientists. 00:04:43.890 --> 00:04:47.700 But speaking to a lay-audience, a TED audience, it was a bit too technical 00:04:47.700 --> 00:04:49.470 for them and, and less engaging. 00:04:49.470 --> 00:04:52.110 So first we had him start with a story. 00:04:52.290 --> 00:04:55.920 He told the story of his father who had Alzheimer's disease and what 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:57.480 it was like to see that decline. 00:04:57.730 --> 00:05:01.720 He established a personal connection and he started sharing his content 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.600 in a way that the audience could really connect to and relate with. 00:05:04.840 --> 00:05:09.040 Then he asked the audience questions, so, how many of you, you know someone that's 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:10.990 suffered from Alzheimer's or dementia? 00:05:11.200 --> 00:05:14.590 So again, creating more connection with the audience to the topic. 00:05:14.830 --> 00:05:17.770 And then finally we came up with an analogy to explain 00:05:17.770 --> 00:05:19.030 something that was pretty complex. 00:05:19.770 --> 00:05:23.370 In our bodies, we have billions of cells and each of these cells are 00:05:23.370 --> 00:05:25.320 like tiny little individual cities. 00:05:25.380 --> 00:05:29.220 And within these cities we have factories, which are the mitochondria. 00:05:29.985 --> 00:05:33.825 The job of these factories is to take the oxygen we breathe and the 00:05:33.825 --> 00:05:35.925 food we eat and convert it to energy. 00:05:35.955 --> 00:05:41.115 The problem is that often our factories face oxidative damage from toxins 00:05:41.115 --> 00:05:45.525 and environmental stressors, and this sets the factory walls on fire. 00:05:45.795 --> 00:05:49.455 And so essentially the fires become much bigger than the 00:05:49.485 --> 00:05:51.345 firefighters in our body can handle. 00:05:51.960 --> 00:05:54.240 So the fires become out of control. 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.180 The factory goes down and then the entire city goes down. 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.540 And this is why we see the symptoms of Alzheimer's, for example, 00:06:00.630 --> 00:06:05.250 what he developed is a supplement that, basically a fireproof brick. 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:09.610 So it comes in and repairs the factory walls with this fireproof brick and 00:06:09.610 --> 00:06:13.890 makes it more resistant to damage so the factory can be saved as well as 00:06:13.890 --> 00:06:16.380 even in some cases, um, rebuild itself. 00:06:16.440 --> 00:06:17.460 So really incredible. 00:06:17.460 --> 00:06:20.580 And my favorite part was right after his talk, his daughter-in-law came 00:06:20.580 --> 00:06:24.090 up to me and she said, for four years I had no idea what he did. 00:06:24.090 --> 00:06:25.370 I get it, this is amazing. 00:06:25.650 --> 00:06:26.125 Thank you so much. 00:06:27.345 --> 00:06:27.565 Matt Abrahams: Wow. 00:06:28.085 --> 00:06:33.000 I love the notion of connecting before going into the complexity, 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:35.940 helping the audience relate to and understand, and there's an 00:06:35.940 --> 00:06:37.710 emotional connection that happens. 00:06:37.990 --> 00:06:41.680 So the taking a poll, the telling a personal story, what a great 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:44.740 way to prepare the audience for the complex information. 00:06:44.770 --> 00:06:48.820 The leveraging of that extended analogy really helps the audience 00:06:48.820 --> 00:06:53.950 to take the perspective of the overall information and see how those 00:06:53.950 --> 00:06:56.020 fireproof bricks can really help. 00:06:56.350 --> 00:06:59.770 Are there other techniques that you've noticed beyond personal 00:06:59.770 --> 00:07:04.840 story, beyond connecting first and analogies that have worked for 00:07:04.840 --> 00:07:06.265 clients or students that you've had? 00:07:06.960 --> 00:07:08.219 Lauren Weinstein: Yes, I'll share two with you. 00:07:08.250 --> 00:07:09.840 One is I call chunking. 00:07:10.140 --> 00:07:12.450 And so a lot of times we'll have ten different things 00:07:12.450 --> 00:07:13.560 that we wanna communicate. 00:07:13.890 --> 00:07:16.200 And so recently I was working with a speaker. 00:07:16.230 --> 00:07:18.990 He was a coach for a lot of different sports teams, and he's 00:07:18.990 --> 00:07:20.820 known for helping turn them around. 00:07:20.880 --> 00:07:24.120 And so he'd go to losing teams and, and over a year or two, 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:25.500 he'd make them winning teams. 00:07:25.890 --> 00:07:29.909 And so he started taking what he did on the field into the business arena, 00:07:30.090 --> 00:07:32.730 and now he'll speak to companies and share what they can also do 00:07:32.730 --> 00:07:34.409 to have higher performing teams. 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:37.510 And when we first started working together, it was, here are the ten 00:07:37.530 --> 00:07:39.240 things you should do, which is a lot. 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:40.020 It's a bit overwhelming. 00:07:40.950 --> 00:07:44.220 So generally in speaking, in communication, we have the rule of three. 00:07:44.610 --> 00:07:48.630 Audiences are pretty good at digesting three discrete buckets of things. 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:52.800 And so what we came up with is a framework that was step number one. 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:54.900 You wanna get your team into alignment. 00:07:55.260 --> 00:07:58.410 You wanna get them all on the same page, heading toward the same North 00:07:58.410 --> 00:08:00.180 star and, and get buy-in from them. 00:08:00.300 --> 00:08:03.780 Then step two, you wanna have certain processes in place. 00:08:04.045 --> 00:08:07.135 And so he talked about celebrating small wins, and he had a number of 00:08:07.135 --> 00:08:08.815 other processes that are crucial. 00:08:09.025 --> 00:08:11.245 And then step three had to do with resilience. 00:08:11.245 --> 00:08:13.465 So what do you do in the face of setbacks? 00:08:13.495 --> 00:08:15.115 How do you recover from those? 00:08:15.355 --> 00:08:19.945 And so by having alignment, process, and resilience, he was able to make it a lot 00:08:19.945 --> 00:08:22.195 more easily digestible for his audience. 00:08:22.465 --> 00:08:25.195 Matt Abrahams: I think that idea of chunking is really, really powerful. 00:08:25.195 --> 00:08:28.255 In fact, I just worked with somebody in a very similar vein where 00:08:28.255 --> 00:08:30.395 there surprisingly were ten ideas. 00:08:30.765 --> 00:08:34.770 And we were able to cluster them together in terms of psychological, 00:08:34.770 --> 00:08:36.300 technological, and ethical. 00:08:36.300 --> 00:08:39.060 And, and really thinking about how you can chunk similar 00:08:39.060 --> 00:08:40.560 ideas together can be helpful. 00:08:40.680 --> 00:08:42.900 I often use an analogy to explain that. 00:08:42.900 --> 00:08:47.280 When, when you bake, for example, you often take the dry ingredients and the 00:08:47.280 --> 00:08:50.610 wet ingredients, you do your work with them, and then you combine them together. 00:08:50.610 --> 00:08:52.500 That's that notion of chunking. 00:08:52.785 --> 00:08:55.575 You said there was another strategy that you've seen used well? 00:08:55.665 --> 00:08:56.145 Lauren Weinstein: Yes. 00:08:56.205 --> 00:08:58.965 Great book called Made to Stick, written by a colleague of 00:08:58.965 --> 00:09:00.375 ours, Chip Heath, as you know. 00:09:00.405 --> 00:09:04.575 And the example he uses, which I love, has to do with making data more relatable. 00:09:04.665 --> 00:09:07.245 The Center for Interest in the Public health, at one point they 00:09:07.245 --> 00:09:11.205 realized that movie popcorn had thirty grams of saturated fat. 00:09:11.775 --> 00:09:14.055 They were outraged, and this is incredible. 00:09:14.055 --> 00:09:16.035 We're gonna tell the public and they're not gonna believe it. 00:09:16.035 --> 00:09:17.685 They're gonna stop eating movie popcorn. 00:09:17.715 --> 00:09:21.765 So they came out with this message and as you might guess, nobody cared 00:09:21.825 --> 00:09:23.355 because it didn't mean very much. 00:09:23.355 --> 00:09:25.005 So thirty grams, is that a lot? 00:09:25.005 --> 00:09:26.085 It, I guess it's bad. 00:09:26.085 --> 00:09:26.745 How bad? 00:09:26.805 --> 00:09:28.305 They needed to make it more relatable. 00:09:28.365 --> 00:09:31.955 And so they went back, they, they hired some folks and now they came out with, 00:09:32.135 --> 00:09:36.615 movie popcorn has more saturated fat than a bacon and eggs breakfast, a 00:09:36.615 --> 00:09:40.965 hamburger and fries for lunch, and a steak dinner with all the trimmings combined. 00:09:41.325 --> 00:09:41.445 Matt Abrahams: Wow. 00:09:41.585 --> 00:09:44.095 Lauren Weinstein: And so, yeah, so incredible. 00:09:44.385 --> 00:09:45.975 And so now people are outraged. 00:09:45.975 --> 00:09:50.055 Now New York Times, CNN, ABC, everybody's talking about this. 00:09:50.055 --> 00:09:51.765 Movie popcorn sales plummet. 00:09:51.825 --> 00:09:54.825 Um, and the industry is forced to change their ingredients. 00:09:55.425 --> 00:09:56.265 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:09:56.445 --> 00:09:58.125 Very, very powerful example. 00:09:58.620 --> 00:10:04.050 So in reflection, I, I think we're taking away some very specific skills that people 00:10:04.050 --> 00:10:08.580 can use to make complex technical and scientific information more accessible. 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:11.910 We're talking about things like chunking information together, 00:10:11.910 --> 00:10:16.110 using analogies, making data relatable and contextualizing it. 00:10:16.110 --> 00:10:19.965 And begin by really understanding your audience and what's the most important 00:10:20.070 --> 00:10:22.080 things that you need to communicate. 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:27.870 And finally, connect first, relate to the audience, use emotion, to get things 00:10:27.870 --> 00:10:32.610 started, and that will help you as you go through your complex information. 00:10:32.850 --> 00:10:36.720 And before we go, I always like to ask three questions of everybody 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:38.190 who helps with this podcast. 00:10:38.190 --> 00:10:40.290 You mind if I give you our top three questions? 00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:41.280 Lauren Weinstein: Go for it. 00:10:41.670 --> 00:10:44.640 Matt Abrahams: Alright, so number one, if you were to capture the best 00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:50.010 communication advice you've ever received as a five to seven word presentation 00:10:50.010 --> 00:10:53.250 slide title, what would that advice be? 00:10:53.820 --> 00:10:56.190 Lauren Weinstein: It would be connect, then lead. 00:10:56.490 --> 00:11:00.240 For everyone listening, there's actually a great article in Harvard Business Review 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:03.960 with the same title, but this idea, you have to connect with the audience first. 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:08.070 You have to tap into what they care about, make your message relatable, and then you 00:11:08.070 --> 00:11:09.840 can take them where you want them to go. 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.000 But that connection first is, is crucial. 00:11:12.090 --> 00:11:12.720 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:14.580 And we certainly talked about that earlier. 00:11:14.670 --> 00:11:16.170 Let me ask you question number two. 00:11:16.290 --> 00:11:19.375 Who's a communicator that you really admire and why? 00:11:20.550 --> 00:11:22.110 Lauren Weinstein: I love Brené Brown. 00:11:22.230 --> 00:11:25.620 Uh, again, for anyone listening, she has an amazing special on Netflix 00:11:25.620 --> 00:11:29.550 right now called Call to Courage, but she does so many of the things that we 00:11:29.550 --> 00:11:33.870 teach in our class, that I share with my clients, in terms of storytelling, 00:11:34.079 --> 00:11:36.480 making content accessible and relatable. 00:11:36.750 --> 00:11:39.720 Uh, her style is just so natural, authentic, very 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.240 conversational, beautiful delivery. 00:11:42.270 --> 00:11:43.740 Uh, just very engaging to watch. 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:46.650 So, uh, I think she's a great role model for anyone who's trying 00:11:46.650 --> 00:11:48.329 to up their communication game. 00:11:48.650 --> 00:11:49.490 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:11:49.490 --> 00:11:51.020 She's very, very impressive. 00:11:51.020 --> 00:11:55.040 And number three, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:11:55.040 --> 00:11:57.140 successful communication recipe? 00:11:57.530 --> 00:11:59.750 Lauren Weinstein: I would say it's asking yourself, uh, the following three 00:11:59.750 --> 00:12:02.300 questions, which is, who is my audience? 00:12:02.719 --> 00:12:04.100 What is my message? 00:12:04.130 --> 00:12:08.240 And then, how can I bring that message to life through stories and analogies? 00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:09.140 Matt Abrahams: Wonderful. 00:12:09.270 --> 00:12:13.490 I absolutely agree that that recipe leads to, to great success. 00:12:13.890 --> 00:12:18.060 Well, Lauren, it's been a pleasure to chat with you in this modality. 00:12:18.060 --> 00:12:21.000 I know we work together a lot in a bunch of different ways. 00:12:21.270 --> 00:12:24.750 Thank you for sharing your insight on how to make complex information more 00:12:24.750 --> 00:12:28.950 accessible, and I hope that everybody is taking away some very specific tools that 00:12:28.950 --> 00:12:34.050 can help you in any situation when you have some really complex information that 00:12:34.050 --> 00:12:36.030 you need to get across to your audiences. 00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:40.530 Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:12:40.530 --> 00:12:42.870 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:12:43.395 --> 00:12:47.505 To learn more about how to make complex ideas more understandable, please 00:12:47.505 --> 00:12:52.895 tune in to episode 49 with Chip Heath or episode 91 with Valerie Fridland. 00:12:53.790 --> 00:12:56.839 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, , Ryan 00:12:56.839 --> 00:12:59.419 Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:12:59.719 --> 00:13:01.639 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:04.429 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:13:05.059 --> 00:13:08.659 Please find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. 00:13:08.929 --> 00:13:11.299 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:13:11.719 --> 00:13:14.119 Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. 00:13:14.449 --> 00:13:19.369 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:13:19.369 --> 00:13:21.709 learning content, and our newsletter.